Manitoba Hansard — 10 October 1969 (Sitting 68, 29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-68

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Friday, October 10, 1969 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1637 MR . SPEAKER: At this point I should like to direct the attention of the honourable mem bers to the gallery, and in my gallery are 30 new Canadians under the direction of Mr. Dawson, Mrs. Ferguson and Miss Fitzgerald. These new Canadians are the guests of the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs.

On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Asse�bly, I welcome yoti here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. ' ' MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchiil): Mr. Speaker, in respect to the announcement today of the proposed merger of TransAir and Midwest, I would li).{e to direct a question to the First Minister. As I understood it, a few years ago it was conditipnal with TransAir that they . . . . . . . . I . get out of the bush flying business if they were to become a region�! carrier. I would wonder if you would look into this. : HON. ED.

SCHREYER (Premier and Minister of Industry an4 Commerce)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, that's a very interesting point and I am sure that thEf honourable member would agree that the two air carriers illvolved would want to remain gooq law-abiding corporate citizens; accordingly they shall be contacted and also the Transportation Commission will be contacted in this connection. In other words, I'll take the question as notice with the under taking to have a follow-up. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): I would like to direct a question to the First Minister.

Could the First Minister indicate if he has had a reply from the wire that he sent to Ottawa in regard to the grain situation in Manitoba. MR. SCHREYER: Well Mr. Speaker, after discussing this with my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Agriculture dispatched the telegram yesterday at noon and I am unable to say if he has had a reply. MR.ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Government Services. Is he aware tha:t there are employees that have worked in this building for over 30 days and have not received a cheque? HON. HOWARD R.

PAWLEY (Minister of Government Services)(Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of this and if the honourable member would speak tq me and give me particulars of this I would certainly appreciate it. It could be done later on this afternoon. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona):, ..•.• possibly add to my honourable colleague's remarks. I believe it is the custom itisofari as the casual help is con cerned, with an abbreviated session, that they be paid at the termul.ation thereof. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. I MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to ![lirect my question to the First Minister. As Minister of Industry and Commerce I wonder if he is aware that one of the • I departments of Swift's packing house has been now closed and the e�ployees will be laid· off at the end of the month. I wonder if he is aware if the whole plant will be closing or just curtail ment of some work. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I haven't had that brought to my attention although I have no reason to ,question the statement or information just given by the' honourable member.

I would think that if this is happening it's because of an inadequate supply of product for process ing in the packing plant named. In any case, we shall look illto it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY .ENNS (Lakesidej: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. During the spring just passed, we did of course have serious flooding and some of the municipalities incurred costs that they were assured by the government would be covered by the government, and I think this policy hasn't been changed. Can the Minister

1638 October 10, 1969 (MR. ENNS cont'd.) ••••• indicate to these munic ipalities when payments wi ll be made to cover these costs? I am speaking specifically of those costs that government accepted as costs the Province of Manitoba would bear. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture)( Lac du Bonnet): Well, Mr. Speaker, in answer to my honourable friend, I can only say that this government will honour commitments made in this respect, you know , if commitments were made.

I can't talk in any more detail because I am not sure which municipalities the honourable member has in mind, but if he would care to indicate this to me later I certainly would look into this. MR. ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Yes, there is just the difference between the larger more affluent municipalities and the smaller ones who have had to borrow money to cover these costs, and of course interest is accruing and in the long run will cost all of us more. .I would undertake to speak to the Minister privately .• ..• MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR.

GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Mr. Chairman, earlier in the ses sion I sent in an Order for a Return and to date I still haven't got any. Will these be coming out to us automati�c"-, cally or will we have to request them again? MR. P A ULLEY: Mr. Speaker, under the rules of the House in Beauche sne any Order for Return that was not tabled during the sessi on does not die, and if at all possib le it will be the intention to send copies of an Order for Return, when they become availa ble, to the honourable member that asked the question and to the Leaders of the respective groups in the Legislature. MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. ADDITION TO GOVERNMENT RESOLUTION MR. PAUL LEY: Mr. Speaker, if I may. You may recall, your Honour, I introduced a resolution empowering the Committee on Economic Development to be empowered to sit during recess, and quite properly the Honourable the Member for Ste. Rose indicated to me that I had not included in the resolution that I read out this morning, certain amendments that were accepted by the House.

I now have those amendments before me, and if it wo uld meet with the agreement of the House, rather than going over the full resolution which is rather lengthy, if it would be satisfactory to my honourable friend the Member for Ste. Rose and the House, I wo uld now include the amendments that I omitted this morning, for the information of the House . as an indication that we accepted those resolutions. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Mini ster have leave to correct the motion by including the amendments proposed by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose and accepted by the House? MR.

P A ULLEY: Then I would say, Mr. Speaker, in addition to what I said previously, the following: AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Standing Committee on Economic Development consider, among its terms of reference, the advisability of electing as its chairman a member who is not a member of the government party; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this House give consideration to the advisability of enlarging the membership of the Standing Committee on Economic Development to include representatives of all groups in the House, whether they are recognized as official parties or not under the House Rules; AND

WHEREAS on Thursday the 9th day of October 1969 the Legislative Asse mbly adopted the following resolution: "Whereas the Legis lative Assembly passed a resol ution on the 7th day of October, 1969, establishing a Standing Committee in the House on Economic Development; and

Whereas the amended resolution provides, among other things, that the House give consideration to the advisability of enlarging the membership of this Stand ing Committee; and

Whereas the House deems it advisable to increase the membership of the committee by two members, Therefore

Be It Resolved that the membership of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be increase d by adding the names of Messrs. Beard and Desjardins;" AND

WHEREAS it is deemed expedient that the said Standing Committee should be authorized to hold such public hearings as it may consider advisa ble; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the said committee have power to sit during the present sessi on, and in recess at the prorogation, and to hold such public hearings as it may deem advisable and report to this House on matters referred to it at the next Session of the Legislature.

October 10, 1969 1639 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd.) I believe, Mr. Speaker, that now includes all of the amendmehts to the original resolution, and I think it indicates a fulfillment of the obligations of the government and of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed to incorporate these corrections into; the motion? (Agreed.) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (Cont'd.) HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Tourism and Recreation)(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, in respect to the question that was asked by the Honourable Member for Brandon We.st, I believe it is, as to my talks with the Hon. Mr.

Cretien when I \\!as in Ottawa this past week, with respect to the Riding Mountain National Park and Clear Lake. ·I think that we all agree it was a little unfortunate that the statements that appeared in the press some two weeks or so ago threw a lot of scare into a lot of the people in that particular area -and pe±-haps rightly so. But I would like to inform the members of the House that really the !situation is not as serious as what we had anticipated by reading what we did in the papers.

I! might say that the federal parks authorities at no time considered the closing of the existing golf course or golf. courses in the national parks no matter where they.may be, and that they will remain open as long as there is public demand for them. However, according to Mr. Cret�n, the policy is not to add any golf courses to any future parks. ' Regarding the cottage leases in Clear, Lake, the Honourable Minister informed me that there is no intention of removing anyone from .his cottage site, that all leases presently termin ating will be renewed for another 42 years.

Also, the statement wa� made in the press that the many cottage owners established on a 99-year basis had now be�n reduced to 42 years. This, according to the Honourable Minister, is not the case. He informed me that his depart ment has never issued 99-year leases to cottage owners in the Riding Mountain National Park, and so far as the creation or the possibility of a wilderness area is poncerned, the answer to that is no, they intend to maintain the recreational aspect of the Rid�g Mountain Park to remain as it is.

I think that perhaps some of these questions or some of these answers may help to alleviate some of the fears we had on the park. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. , MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the Minister for these explanations and I think this will be most reassuring to the pe6ple of Western Manitoba, and I am sure of all of Manitoba, who have been very much concerned about the reports that were coming out supposedly from Ottawa on the plan. Thank you. 1 MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr. Speaker, just one word further.

Any further policies they might have to offer will be forthcoming in the near future from Mr. Cretien. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I would 1)-lso like to thank the Minister for the reassuring information insofar as Clear Lake is concerned, and so much so that the golf course will be maintained, and that the leases will be renewed for the next 40 years. I take it from his remarks that the street system, the lighting, the sewer and all those facilities, will also be maintained during those 40 years, so we have', got nothing to worry about. MR.

BEARD: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the businesses also be allowed to continue, that are operating there at present? The restaurants and cabin owners and such? MR.BU RTNIAK: According to the Minister, this is his intent�on, yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR.GILDA S MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, in.a sense, to the Minister. Has he had further discussions with Ottawa with respect to the second national park in Manit-oba? Is he in a position to make any announcement to tpe House? MR. BUR TNIAK: I 'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. Not at the present', time.

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I wonder, if the question period has ended --members of the House l�te this morning indicated their agreement unanimously to our postponing Private Members' Re:solutions until after we have completed estimates, and on that basis, I beg to move, seconde'd by the Honourable the Minister of Labour, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried,

1640 October 10, 1969 (MR. SPEAKER cont'd.) .••. and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR . CHAffiM AN: We are dealing with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Chairman, I think I was speaking when we closed off just before lunch. I notice that the First Minister isn't in the House right now, and actually what we were dealing with deals specifically with the remarks that he made.

What I wanted to say was that I appreciate the consideration that the First Minister is giving to this, basically that he wants to run out this one -year term.

However, he did make a statement earlier on, something abrut a provision of an outside maximum of $2,000, and I must say that on that particular point I still consider it, and I would assume from this that he was implying that the two members involved that are receiving secondary remuneration from the universities are beneath this maximum which he has suggested, but I must say that basically I -- there is only one matter of principle here, and I would rather hope that he's not cutting off his members from participating in some part -time teaching if they like, or other activity.

The only matter of principle here is the matter of a Cabinet minister, a member of the Treasury bench, receiving income from the University, and I will say again that that is the only matter of principle here that I am concerned about. If he wants to use his discretion how much time he spends, that's fine, but if he is receiving five cents from the University for his services I am still in dis agreement and the motion still stands. MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Well, Mr.

Chairman, in speaking to the motion to reduce cabinet ministers' salaries by-the amount that they receive from other tax -supported institutions, I would like to say a very few words. It is my understanding, in the period that I have been in this House, that time and time again people have told us that the cabinet minister's job is a very taxing job and there is so much work attached to the position that really, I suppose, they could be compared to the housewife whose work is never done. Now I believe that.

I really do believe that a cabinet minister that takes his responsibilities in a serious manner, he has a heavy load to carry, and he should not have other distractions or other firm commitments that he has to keep. I'm not talking about having recreational time or free time, I'm talking about being tied down to other commitments. And especially I don't think that a cabinet minister-should be placed ever in the position where he can be questioned publicly or privately as to why he is taking an income from another source.

Now of the two gentlemen who have stated this morning in this House that they have, for reasons other than looking for income, for reasons of humanitarian thoughts and for wishing to stay loyal to the institution that had employed them before, for any other reason, I accept the fact that they are acting from the goodness of their heart and not for any other motive. I accept that. But, after having said that, I still truly cannot believe that a Minister should be taking an income from a source that is indirectly connected to government - indirectly connected to government.

If the Minister wishes to help out, as has been suggested by the Member for Riel who is a former cabinet minister himself, well then that is a diff erent matter and I would expect that eventually the cabinet minister would wish to phase out of that occupa tion, or that part- time occupation, but in the meantime, on a matter of principle our group feel that they ·have to support the motion that the cabinet minister should derive his income strictly from his departmental salary and that in this particular instance -- now I'm not confusing this with someone who has a farm or business that he puts himself at arm's length from.

I'm not suggesting that because a man goes into public life and takes a post in the cabinet that he has to sell out and drop everything he owns. I'm not saying that at all, but in this particular case I believe, truly believe, that the cabinet minister should have his only the one responsibility, and with no thought of another interest that some time may be called, not into question, but the thought may be there that they are dividing their time whEn they shouldn't be, or they maybe have other reasons in mind than the reasons that I am sure these two gentlemen here have for the work that they do.

So for that reason, Mr. Speaker, we feel that on the principle of the matter we must support the motion. MR . CHAffiMAN: Question on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CHAmMAN put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. CRAI K: Ayes and Nays, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAffiMAN: Ayes and Nays. Call in the members. We are voting on the proposed

October 10, 1969 1641 (MR. CHAffiMAN cont'd.) ••••• motion of the Honourable Member for Riel on amendment that the salary of the-Minister of Mines and Natural Resources be reduced by an a:Qiount equal to the annual salary he receives for rendering his professional services to Brandon University . . A COUNTED STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 20, Nays 24. MR. CHAffiMAN: I declare the motion lost. (Resolutions �2, 73, and 74 (

a) to (

g) were read

section by

section and passed.) The Honourable Member fo t Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle -Russell): There's

Section (

h) there. MR. CHAffiMAN: That's right.

Section (h). MR. GRAHAM: While you are dealing with

section (h), I would like to ask the Minister if he would consider a preferential lottery system for the farmer� immediately south of the Riding Mountain National Park when it comes to the issuance of licenses for the special Elk season. MR. CHAffiMAN: 74 (h) -- passed. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the committee would be agreeable to your calling them by resolutions, with the understanding that any member would have the right in the resolution to request reference to a specific sub -section. (Agreed.) MR.

CHAffiMAN: Resolution 75 -- passed; 76 --passed; 77 -- passed; 78 --passed -:-: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Chairman, on Resolution 77 and I'm not gping to make a speech, but! would like to ask the Minister if he could give the House some ind�cation of what his intentio�s are in respect to the various dam projects that have been mentioned by myself and by different members from this side of the House. I'm talking about the Pleasant Valley Dam and the Rock Lake and the Patterson Dam. 1 HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Reaources)(Brandon East): Mr.

Chairman, I was looking for the honourable member this morning. I have again consulted with my department on the Patter son Dam, which I believe is closest to your heart, and there has to date, as of this morning been no word yet received from Ottawa. As soon as word is received I will notify the honourable member. With respect to the various dam projects in the province: as I indicated during the earlier discussion on my estimates, it's our intention to review the various projects that are in the earlier stages and to perhaps go to Ottawa and dis cuss it with our counterparts in Ottawa to get some action.

We'd like to see some action on this. MR. WATT: Well, I can take it then from the Minister, Mr'. Chairman, that the province is now prepared to proceed immediately on these proposed projects provided that the Federal Government are in agreement. MR. EVANS: Right. There is no intention on our part to hold up the Patterson Dam specifically, and these others that have gone along, they seem to us to be very worthwhile projects, and there is no policy change on our part from the polic� that was considered prior to us taking office in connection with these particular projects. MR. WATT: Well again then, Mr.

Chairman, I take it from what the Minister has said that the province is prepared now, the government today is prepared to proceed with these dams immediately, with the okay of the Federal Government. 1 MR. EVANS: You have to specify them. I mentioned the Patter son in particular. There are one or two others that have been brought along. As you know, they are subject to cost benefit studies and the procedure is that if the benefits warrant the coat, then we do recommend it to the Federal Government, and when we get their approval we nprmally go ahead, and there is no change in this particular approach.

Ther� is always the ove:ri-all limitation of adequate supply of funds and this. is always a limitation of course which applies to any program, l::lut within that limitation I would say that I would like to see these go ahead. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris- Killarney. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris -Killarney): How many towna'lhave entered into agreements I • with your department or with the Water Supply Board, into agreement to supply water to their communities during the past year? Could you list the names of the towns that have entered into agreements with your Water Supply Board? MR. EVANS: Yes.

You'll appreciate that I can't give you this information immediately but I will undertake to obtain that information for the honourable member. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 75 --passed; Resolution 76 --passed; Resolution 77 - passed. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to thresh old straw with the Minister but. !

1642 October 10, 1969 (MR. BILTON cont'd.) .• ••• I hope he will remember my remarks earlier in the session with regard to the water conservation problem in the Swan River Valley, and that he will look at it closely and possibly keep me informed as to what the intentions of the department are in taking care of the heavy run -off in wet seasons on the Duck Mountains. MR. CHAm.MAN: Resolution 77 --passed. Resolution 78 --passed, That concludes the Department of Mines. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, would you now move to the Department of Municipal Affairs on page 24. MR. CHAmMAN: Department of Municipal Affairs.

The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be most brief. I would just like to compliment my Deputy Minister and Assistant Deputy and other departmental heads for the utmost cooperation and assistance they have rendered to me in the last few months. I know it is rather difficult for senior civil servants and other civil servants to adjust to a new Minister, particularly one of very little experience in the legislative work previous to this, and it has been most appreciated by myself. I am not going to enter into any debate at this point in respect to these estimates.

There is no indication of a variance in policy at this point expressed in the estimates themselves. They are the estimates that were prepared last sprinJ!. There will of corirse be meetings of the Committee on Municipal Affairs that will be dealing with changes to the Municipal Act and the Local Elections Authorities Act, and there will be a great deal of discussion and debate, I am certain, by the members present that are on that committee,. and from those discussions and from government will come very definitive decisions in respect to legislation that will be prOJ?osed in the spring session.

Of course, this department is mainly a service department in that it renders services requested of lt in the main by municipalities, and in that degree it varies somewhat from the other departments. With these few remarks, Mr. Chairman, you might proceed if there is any debate. MR . CHAmMAN: Resolution No. 79. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. JACK HARDY (St. Vital): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Firstly, may I rise and congratulate the Minister of Mllilicipal Affairs on his appointment to what I consider to be a very important and a very complex portfolio -important because it includes practically all aspects of government operation, and I include in that social services, welfare, transportation, recreation, and certainly youth and education.

I perhaps should also extend my condolences because I think the Minister is aware, in the short time that ·he has been in .this portfolio, that the problem of urbanization, the high cost of urbanization in Manitoba itself, has reached the point where it's become an extreme burden on individual home owners and on property owners insofar as taxes are .concerned. The Hcraourable Minister of Finance, at a recent meeting of the Manitoba Urban Associa tion, indicated in his remarks that the cities are in a mess and that he, nor the government, did not have the answers.

To some degree I would agree with him that the cities are in a mess, not because of the cities themselves, primarily because of split jurisd�ctions and financial problems; and the Minister, at that same function at a later date, indicated that he would be in a position o-;: at least he felt that he should - and I would wholeheartedly agree - listen to any presentations, any briefs presented by the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, the Manitoba Urban Association, and certainly the Mayors and Reeves Association of Greater Winnipeg, and I can assure you, Sir, that all of these organizations I am sure will be making representation to you and to your department with respect to the operation of the various functions that are within the confines of local levels of government, The NDP Party -and I believe this was the question asked by the Honourable Member from St.

James - indicated that-- no, I'm sorry - Assinlboia, (that's a gross, I shouldn't say misrepresentation, but it's a gross error on my

part in view of the fact that the honourable gentleman, we have discussed this on many many occasions) indicated that one of the platforms of the NDP Party who are fielding candidates in local elections, one of the platforms that they are endeavouring to convey and utilize as a political tool, so to speak, is the question of amalgamation, and I would suggest to you, Sir, that this question of amalgamation be considered very, very carefully.

The First Minister has indicated to me, or did indicate to me at the early stages of this sitting, that he would --he did, in fact, assure me that public hearings would be held with respect to any recommendations that the Boundaries Commission might introduce, and I believe you might recall, Sir, that at the meeting of the Urban Association you indicated to the Chair man that although you were in complete agreement with this, that perhaps some of your

October 10, 1969 1643 (MR. HARDY cont'd.) ••••• colleagues were not, and consequently I was quite prepared to withdraw, prior to this, a resolution presented by the City of St.

Vital that public hearings in fact should be held, but in view of the comments of the chairman at that time, Jlpparently in conjunction with some statements that you haq made, the resolution was presented, the resolution was passed unanimously, and I'm sure the resolution w1ill be brought forward to you., and I would suggest, Sir, that you do in fact consider this vety, very seriously, because I think you can realize that amalgamation for the sake of amalgam ation is something that we can do without, and amalgamation, where it is going to mean a drastic increase in the mill rate of suburban areas, be again considered very very seriously.

Otherwise, if this is brought about, rather than "Growing to Beat 170," it will be " 70 by 170," - that is, a 70 mill rate in the Greater Winnipeg area by 1970. · This talk of amalgamation has been brought about, and I am not in disagreement with some type of amalgamation, but I would strongly suggest that before any question of total amalgamation be considered that this again be given very very se:dous consideration, because it has been suggested that this could be brought about as the resul� of a duplication of·services.

To some degree I will go along with that, but the duplication of se�vices is perhaps primarily in the area of administration, because rwould suggest, Sir, that i our fire departments, your police department, your public works departments, in effect would only become a sub-depot, so to speak, of any central organization, and one thing - two things that do concern me in this area, is the fact that if this did come about, if total amalgamation 'did come about, then a political unit within the Greater Winnipeg area representing 500,000 people could, in effect, dictate to this Assembly.

I would also suggest to you, Sir, that because of the size and because of the pyramid structure that would be in existence, the average individual, you and I as individuals, would have very little to say as to the manner in whicl\. policy would be carried out. Financing. I'm sorry that the Minister of Finance is not with us this afternoon.

Perhaps he has better things to think about in sipping sake, and geisha girls, and I rather envy him for this - but financing: I think it was the Honourable Member for La Verendrye that indicated that as a result of a question, you, Sir, indicated that perhaps at the present time there are approximately $9 million of outstanding debentures that have been issued by local levels of government in the Province of Manitoba, and it would appear, because of other local improve ments that are going to be undertaken, because of Centennial projects that have been - or commitments made for Centennia(projects, this will no doubt be increased, and I think you are aware, Sir, that the debenture market, insofar as municipal bonds! and debentures are concern ed, is sick; it's real sick.

The Province of Nova Scotia, in undertaking a study with respect to this area, did in fact increase a fund for the purchase by the pr6vince of municipal debentures. The Honourable the Minister of Labour was kind enough to furnish �e with some figures indicating that the Reserve Fund of the Workmen's Board did in fact, did include I believe it was about $3 million that had been purchased by this fund . Although this is a very commendable step, I would suggest that it is a far cry in meeting the requirements of local levels of govern ment.

Education is something that is again an extremely complex area, and it has been the suggestion, a resolution was introduced into this Assembly, where9y the Foundation Grant, over a period of two to three years, would be increased to 100 perc;ent. Here again, I'm afraid it's .a question of too little and too late.

An increase of 10 percent �n an annual basis would only cover the projected increased costs on an annual basis without; increasing the actual benefit to local levels of government, and I did cite an example, because controls were not established in this area where in fact the Foundation Grant enabled a reduction of 2.5 mUls, but the special levy, by virtue of the fact that it was increased to five mills, resulted in a net increase of 2. 5 mills.

And I can appreciate, Sir, that it is an extremely complex problem, but by the same token you have a situation, and I'm sure the Minister is aware of it, where people on fixed incomes, low incomes, are still saddled with the cost of education, which in my opinion ls absolutely wrong. I think education, along with perhaps welfare, and this is nothing new -I'm sure you are aware of it; this is nothing new - thiS concept has been promoted for a considerable period, but as far as these people are concerned, it also applies to local improvement levies and money by-laws.

It has been suggested, it was suggested by the govern ment prior to June 25th, that they were going to introduce a $2, 000 basic exemption, which is a very interesting approach, an extremely interesting approach, but you have the situation, and I cite as an example again my own constituency which includes a portion of the City of -.

1644 October 10, 1969 (MR. HARDY cont'd.) •• •• • St. Boniface and a portion of the City of St. Vital, where, if this were introduced on the basis of 8, 000 homes at a rate of 60 mills -I take an approximate rate of 60 mills for round figures, for easy computation - that it means $1 20.00 per unit, and on the basis of 8, 000 homes or in excess of 8, 000 homes, it means $1 million. Now there is no way, Sir, that local levels of government can absorb a rate of $1 million. It's absolutely - well, I won't say what I'm thinking, but it's an extremely ridiculous approach.

Now there is a possibility, and, as I say, I'm going to keep this rather brief because I can appreciate the Minister is relatively new to the problems, his department is not new to the problems and I'm saving most of my co=ents to the time when the Minister is in a position to introduce his own budget -presumably this will be in the spring. But you have a situation, and it was on a proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia that a basic $2,000 exemption be applied in certain cases.

Now, referring back to the study that was undertaken by the Province of Nova Scotia, they came to the conclusion that it would be extremely diff icult to administer a $2, 000 exemption in any way, shape or form.

Their reco=endation was that the income level be raised in order that these people could participate, because it is presenting a problem insofar as local levels of government are concerned, as I mentioned, with respect to local improvements where, in the opinion of local councils, these improvements should be undertaken, and money by-laws, but I do not quarrel with the people in their thinking that are in this category where they just cannot afford it, and I would suggest that the Minister certainly give some consideration to this.

I also requested some informati on or co=ents from the Minister of Transportation with respect to the transportation deficit as it applies to the Metropolitan Corporation, which, as you are probably aware, is in the neighbourhood of $4 million. Now this $4 million, again I'm sure, Sir, that you are aware, becomes a direct charge against the local taxpayer. Now it was increased from three to five percent, which resulted I think in something from $280, 000 to approximately $500,000. Here again, perhaps it's a step in the right direction but it does not solve the problem. It's a far cry from solving the problem.

The welfare costs. Welfare again, I think it's been suggested on many many occasions that welfare costs become the sole responsibility of the Provincial Government, and also in this area -unfortunatel y the Honourable the Attorney-General is not in his seat at the moment it has been my experience that 40 percent-plus of welfare costs result from desertions and are the responsibility of the local levels. Now in my opinion again, the costs of welfare should be borne totally by the province and perhaps administered through the local levels of govern ment.

Insofar as the police is concerned, here again this is my own personal opinion, I have had this opinion for some time, in that the Attorney-General's Department should establish a training school for all police officers within the Province of Manitoba to establish a uniform standard and a high standard. I also too, Sir, would suggest -I might also congratulate the officials of your department for the co-operation that they have afforded the various groups and organizations that comprise levels of government, local levels of government, and I can assure you that we've had the utmost of co-operation in this field.

They're very very helpful in many many matters. It's also been suggested that -- as a matter of fact, I believe this is the co=ent or suggestion of the Chairman, the Honourable Member from Elmwood, that perhaps a Department of Urban Affairs be established. There may be merit to this but I would suggest that before we undertake, or before the government undertakes any approach towards establishing a Depart ment of Urban Affairs, again to give very serious consideration to utilizing the present facilities and the present personnel of the Department of Municipal Affairs.

Heaven only knows that we in Winnipeg are over-governed, and it would -- I don't think, really -- to establish a Department of Urban Affairs, another bureaucratic department, would perhaps only provide another stumbling block to some degree in the paths of local levels. As I say, Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to keep my remarks particularly brief this afternoon insofar as this applies to the Department of Municipal Affairs, but I would like to close in suggesting, Sir, that some of the comments that perhaps I have made you will consider, your department will consider, because I'm sure you can, as I said before, appreciate the fact that the Department of Municipal Affairs is one of the most complex within the government structure. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Chairman, I'm indeed happy that

I_- October 10, 1969 1645 (MR. BARKMAN cont'd.) •• ••• the House is so well represented ithis afternoon and also that the press at least is present, but for other reasons my remarks *ill be short. I would also like to, on behalf of our group, congratulate the Minister. With his beautiful smile one can't help but like him and Illope he'll turn out that way in the internal part also. And I do wish to mention at the outset that his staff indeed need to be complimented.

I don't know what I would ·have done so often in the past; as a member of a constituency or for that matter as Mayor of a town, the help has always been forthcoming in such a way that It was evendelightfultoreceive, never mind not being afraid to ask for it.

I have changed my intention of speaking at any length at this time on municipal matters, in view of the newness of this government, in view of the newnessj of the Minister, and perhaps also taking into consideration that this is already the second session in 1969, but perhaps my main reason at this time is the fact that the municipal committee has now been set up and, as has been mentioned, we intend to start on it on the 17th ·Of November, and I am quite willing at this time to scrap my words of admonishment and perhaps save some of the comments that I first thought I might make for a later date.

But I wish to remind the Minister that from now. till the next session begins, that he takes this time to look seriously for some solutions that are needed to some of the severe municipal problems that exist today.

We could talk about assessment for hours; we could talk about our problems in selling and buying debentures, of planning, and we know that nearly all the municipalities, or very � any of them, find them selves more or less boxed in a position where they have only the property taxes to go to, but I'm sure, and I wish the Minister would take this sincerely, that from now till the next session begins, that he does try and look for some of the solutions that we must find.

I don't expect that he'll find them all or he'd be possibly more than a human being, but I certainly hope he takes this time to find some of them. . ! I think this is all that I care to say at this time. I've noticed from time to time that the amalgamation problem in Winnipeg becomes quite acute at times and I have my sympathy with some of the problems that exist. Personally, possibly on a personal basis, all I can suggest that if the problems get too big, I have heard that the Town of Steinbach will be glad to invite all the cities into their town. MR. CHAmMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

BEARD: Take the pained look off your fac.e, Mr. Chairman. I've got no notes so I'm not going to be very long. The Minister couldn't accompany u� up. to Churchill at the time we took our trip up there, and I would be very pleased to sit down �ow if he wlll go on record on obligating himself to come up this year some time with me, so we can meet with the people of Churchill and this will cut our time down very much. If he could indicate that now, I promise you, Mr. Chairman, I'll sit down; if not, I'll have to continue. MR.PA WLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I'm pleased that the Honour�ble Member for Churchill has raised this with me and I regret I was unable to go to Churchill at the time. I was at that point ill, as the honourable member knows, and I do plan to go with the honourable member to Churchill some time in the month of November, so I think that this probably wlll terminate the honourable member's speech. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: I will dispense with the normal congratulatory remarks.

The Minister is known to me from prior days to his entry into politics and I know his capabilities will be well demonstrated in his position. i I rise on just one particular matter, which is not necessaril� within his direct ambit but has a bearing in terms of considering changes in the Municipal Act or municipal structure.

I refer specifically, my colleague here has mentioned or talked about some of the urban prob' lems, I want to refer specifically to the problem that the Minister is also aware of, and that deals with the towns in the Inter lake area who for one reason or other find themselves without the amenities of sewer and water, and I think the Minister is prob�bly also aware that what has happened to some extent is through restrictions placed on them by the Municipal Act as to the amounts that communities can borrow for such improvements, and the rapidly, the high rising cost of these services is only widening the gap.

In other words, I don't see how these communities are going to, without some special consideration or without some amendments that will enable them to either borrow more than they are now capable of borrowing under The Municipal Act, and of course I recognize that this may well involve other departments, it may involve other governmental help, but there is an area, and this is vrhy I'm rising to speak to . !

1646 October 10, 1969 (MR. ENNS cont'd.) ••••• the Minister's salary at this time, that the communities that I'm referring to in the Interlake by and large you would have to say do not have the same assess ment rolls as some of the more affluent communities in southern Manitoba, and then again, by having put off so late the installation of these very needed services, they've caught them selves in a hopeless trap. The gap is widening, not narrowing.

I think there will have to be a combination on the part of you, Sir, and perhaps the Mini ster of Mines and Natural Resources through his Water Control and Conservation Branch, and together perhaps with the Minister of Agriculture through the ARDA and FRED programs, that can bring about a situation that will erase something that really isn't acceptable any more for communities such as Stonewall, Lundar, Eriksdale, Arborg, others; there's about five what we would call major communities in the Inter lake without the services of sewer and water, and I don't think it's any good -- certainly we can't simply be satisfied with saying that we've had a program in effect, the Manitoba Water Supply Board, which has done a fairly good job throughout Manitoba in supplying many communities or in assisting many communities in getting these services.

The simple fact that remains is that theEie communities in the Interlake have not been able to or have not seen themselves able to avail themselves of these programs, and I think that in the time ahead, particularly when the time is so preoccupied with the Session, that I would urge the Minister, who is no stranger to the Inter lake and particularly no stranger to, say, for instance the Town of Stonewall which is one of the major towns without sewer and water in this instance, and I'm speaking here really out of the generosity of my heart as it's no longer my constituency.

It's the· constituency of my honourable friend from Gimli now, but as a resident of the Inter lake my concern is not limited by political boundaries as you can see, Mr • Minister • So, with this little parochial concern, if I may put it that way, Mr. Minister, I would hope that you would give this some attention in the coming months. MR. CHAIRMAN: A popular member. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): You're speaking about me or about the Honourable Member for Lake side, Mr. Chairman? ' MR. CHAIRMAN: Both. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairm an, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Municipal Affairs for his portfolio, and he's certainly given evidence in the :Past few months that he is taking his job seriously and intends to do a good job. Mr. Chairman, I'd ouly like to say very briefly to the Minister that I want him to fight with every other Cabinet Minister in the govern ment. There's no way that you can avoid this.

You are the representative, our representa tive in the provincial House, for the cities and municipalities, and every time some of the other Ministers plan something provincial-wise etc., and I 'm not saying that we shouldn't have other things in the province and what have you, but every time they do, someth� obviously happens to the mill rate in the cities and municipalities.

And I'd like to refer, if I might, to a speech made by the Honourable Member for Kildonan made in April, 1968, when he gave the government at that time a real going-over about a balanced budget, etc. and he says, "Balanced budget, but look at the mill rates in the cities and municipalities at the present time. East Kildonan, 59. 25 mills from 50," and I won't go through it all. They all jumped up, and they all jumped up because of education costs and other little things that I have spoken of before.

Allowing them to spend up to four mills of their reserve on the coming birthday party and replacing your reserve doesn't always happen, and if you don't have your reserve sometimes you can't use it to help your mill rate, and many other of these types of things. You are our representative and, as I say, we have to control some education costs at the present time. There's no doubt that it's going to go up. The cities and municipalities can't divorce themselves from their educational districts.

They're theirs; they're part of theirs; but they have to be controlled in an orderly way so that the mill rate is not continually taking a big hike at the present time. That's basically what I want to say. Fight with these other Ministers. Don't let them do things that are going to raise municipal taxes unn ecessarily.

Don't let them put things through that will cost the people in general when it comes down to working the mill rate, because the cities and the municipalities as a whole can sit down and they can budget their revenue and they can budget their expenses, but most of the time when the mill rate goes up lately it is not their fault. They get assessment from Metro and education and things of this nature.

October 10, 1969 1647 (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd .) Mentioning Metro and Greater Winnipe g, I'm one that doesn't believe there should be one big city but I certainly don't believe there should be thirteen cities and municipalitie s either. I think you 'll find most of the aldermen in the Winnipeg area agree and think the same way . The Metro Corpo ration should be repre sentative of people from the cities and the Metro Corporation should be a service to the cities and municipalitie s, not their lord and master .

Their lord and master, or the people they're respo nsible to, sho11-ld be the Provincial Govern ment, and in that way at the present time Metro is a very great bln-rier between them. So, Mr.· Minister, that's all I'd like to say and I know that you're going to look at it seriously . I know that we'll be working on a committee together where we '11 be able to discu ss things, and frankly I'm looking for ward to it. Thank you very much. I MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. 1 MR • HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I have very little to add to the debate.

I'd like to congratulate the Minister on his appointme nt. Most of the things that I've been thinking about have been well covered except assess ment in this last number of years. If our Member for Rhinelandwas here in his seat, I knew this was one thing he intendkd to bring up himself but since he isn't here and it's a question we 've both been talking about, I thought I'd bring it.¥11, is that asse ssments have been based to some degree on the resale value of land in this last while, and the resale value of land two years ago was much diff erent than it is today.

Sbi know your department is very complex and things are hard to derive at decisio ns, but this ts one thing that should be considered in assessi ng land, is that values of land have dropp ed considerably. I MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BARKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I think it would only be fair to mention, since the Member of Pembina just mentioned the Member of Rhine land, he phoned me a little while ago from the hotel and he became sick suddenly, although apparently it's not too severe , but I realize that if he were here - and he'd very much like to be here - he had quite a bit to say about asses sment, and I'm sure that being the type of gentleman he is, that he won't forget some of this pos sibly until the next estimates come up, but he wasj very sorry that he couldn't ��. . MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 79 -� The Honourable Minister. MR.

P AWLEY: Just a couple of points. The Honourable Member for Lake side ref erred to the water and sewer diff iculties experien ced by some of the towt\.s in the Interlake, and I par ticularly recall the times when I was solicitor for the Town of Stonewall and the honourable member - I wish he was pre sent -w as a member of the Legislature for that town, and I recall asking on behalf of the town attempting to bring pre ssure up on the government of that day to see if some for m of special assistance could be rendered to the tmtn . It is a real problem in the Interlake.

There are abnormal costs in installation and the asses sment of many of these towns in the Inter lake is not Sl.ifficient, compa red to the very high cost of installation, to make it a pro posi tion that the ratepa yers are prepa red to supp ort.in a referendum , and I do think that our government will have to take a very long and serious look at this whole area of water and sewer and ascertain whether or not we can fulfill this request by the Honourable Member for Lakeside because it's a very meaningful one.

I see he's return�d -- I was just recollecting the days that we used to discu ss this back and ;forth over the council chamber in the Town of Stonewall when you were the member for that area. The asses sment, I recognize, is a real problem and there has been considerable debate in the past in respect to this.

I think asse ssment is a real proble m! in the peri pheral areas surrounding the City of Winnipeg where you have a contrast betweel). the sprawl-over of the urban area into the rural area, and we 're going to have to very carefully look into this in the Municipal Affairs Committee and I would app reciate all the comments that the Member for Pembina can introduce in our committee meetings in respect to this, entire area.

And in respect to the area of amalgamation, this is one of our big proble ms and we will have to listen to briefs and do research, and at the proper time introduce some form of legislation that will assist in removing some of the diff icultie.n that are now inherent in the pre sent system, Mr. Chairman. 1 MR. CHAffiMAN: (Resolutions 79 to 91 were read and passed - Department of Municipal Aff airs pass ed.) . i I am not certain of the next department • Health 1 The Department of Health and Social Services.

1648 October 10 , 1969 HDN. SIDNEY GREEN (Minister of Health and Social Services) (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to make the usual remarks of gratitude to the top civil servants and I take it for granted that the House and everybody else recognizes the wonderful work they are doing and the way they assisted me in coming in as new Minister. But I do feel that it's necessary to spend just a few moments in thanking the previous Minister, because there have been remarks made by various Ministers as to the cooperation or material left.

I want to indicate that everything that I could pos sibly have needed was left to me in my department by my predecessor, the former Minister of Health and Social Services; and what is more, he gave me a full three days of his time previous to the Cabinet being sworn in. I was here on a Thursday, Friday and a Monday - I believe those were the days - and Dr.

Johnson was good enough to spend those three days in talking about the department and its sensitive areas, and I can assure honourable members that not only did he prepare me for the difficult re:sPonsibilities which is very unusual in terms of political opponents. So I do think that, de spite the fact that I don't want to spend a good deal of time, I want to indicate that I received cooperation which I only hope I will remember if the day ever comes that a change has to be made again, and I hope that I can act as big about it as did Dr. Johnson. MR . CHA1RMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR .

BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to congratulate the Minister on his appoint ment, and I for one realize the heavy responsibilities he has in the days that lie ahead. And again I must be a little parochial and brief in my remarks,, ,and that is I get a little concerned about those folks who reach the twilight years, that require some help .

I have had something to do with the establishment of our senior citizens' home in Swan River, as I'm sure the other members have had in the various areas throughout the province , but when the doors of that • home were opened, I realized that we were developing a problem, a problem that would have to be coped with in the not-too-distant future, and that situation, Mr.

Chairman, is that the senior citizens' home in Swan River has served a wonderful purpose and it houses some 50 people, and as time goes along and those people require some health services, they do in turn go into the hospital, and in due course, with the high cost of hospital operation it's necessary that in due course , they must leave the hospitals , and I suggest and our community realizes that the senior citizens' home as such is not the place for these people.

It's one of the most difficult things, I find, to explain to people, that we have a $2 million complex there by way of a hospital and no room can be found for these people that need moderate care. So I'm appealing. to the Minister, in all sincerity, to give an eye to this particular problem, and I do know that over the years I have brought to the attention of his predeces sors from time to time that we have a problem in the Swan River Valley, as I'm sure there are in other areas .

A survey was taken at the instruction of his predecessor, and there are some 450 people, I understand, in the Swan River area that will in due cour.se require care . The local community have a committee set up on this situation and they in turn have done their

part in appealing to the government to provide an extended care home for the Swan River Valley, and I would reiterate at this particular time, Mr. Minister, that soJm consideration be given to this. I realize it takes dollars, but I also realize too that there is this problem.

Many of these people in those advanced years are without relatives and sometimes cast aside, as it were, entirely on their own, and I should say too, at this particular time, that we have nowhere for these people to go in that condition that requires a limited amount of extended care or medical care, and our people of this state have been sent to Brandon, Winnipeg, Dauphin, anywhere that there was an area that they could be accommodated, and I think the time has arrived that serious thought might be given in this direction.

Leaving that point for just a moment, I must say too, Sir, that we have a developing problem, as I suppose it's prevalent everywhere else , in that there appears to be, from a public point of view, certain abuses of welfare, and whilst I'm not going to take up the time of the House to pinpoint incidents, I would suggest that something be done in the public interest for a better liaison between what the department is attempting to do through its employees and the public generally.

The public generally, who are paying the bills, seem to complain to me, as I'm sure they do to other members of the House, that there are abuses in welfare in one direction or another, and in my public life I know it's probably the most difficult thing to pin point and get down to, and I could give individual cases again, but I would suggest that something be done to tighten up, if that's the word to use , without taking anything away from anyone on welfare payments, on welfare accommodations to people, because I'm sure the Minister knows

I 11 October 10, 1969 1649 (MR. BILTON cont'd.) • ··· � as well as I do that there are abuse� and anything he can do to eliminate these abuses in any way, will not only benefit those people that we 're trying to help, but also eliminate something that seems to be an extravagance in the department here and I �re . ! With those few words, I wish him every success in his undertakings, and I for one will do all I can to help him from my area. :, MR. CHAm.MAN: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I don't intend to take n)_uch of the committee's time.

This department was thoroughly discussed for some weeks, I believe, in the last session and of course � main bone of contention was the method of financing :Medicare, ·and the events that have transpired since that time have proven that� people ·of Manitoba wanted another method of financing their Medicare premiums and I must give the 1,credit to this government for making that change • , As far as the numerous departments contained under Healthi,and Social Services, with a total of $96 million of spending, it would be my hope that in the future more emphasis will be placed upon the housing and renewal aspects of the development in this department.

It would also be my hope that this is not to be considered only a Gre�ter Winnipeg problem, tha:t I . all areas of the province receive consideration under any plan tha� the government may be devising for the year ahead. I believe that the urban slum and �; rural slum deserve equal attention.

Whe�r the citizens who haven't decent housing, whether they come from an Indian reserve or from � metropolis of Greater Winnipeg, or a small tbwn or any o�r community in the province , I hope that equal treatment will be given under the plans that will be forth- coming, I understand. 1 So, Mr • Chairman, that is the only point I wish to make at t¥is time, that when the government are placing a new emphasis in the department that they consider very seriously � desperate housing situation that is occurring in Manitoba at the pr�sent time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. ! MRS.

INEZ 1RUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to have this opportu-_ nity to congratulate the new Minister of Health and Social Service si. There are some questions which I would like to ask, and I understand that in the previous se�sion �re were 22 1/2 hours of debate on just this one department. I certainly don't think it would be the intention of any of us to have people go through that again. 1• · Now, I think that this department is in very capable hands .

When I think of his being able to take on the administration of a large department, mental h�alth services, corrections, public health services and social services, including probation anq housing, and continuing to lecture as well, I think really he must be considered a superman and I'm overcome with . admiration.

I think that because there is a difference in philosophy and a�so that the expenditures of this department have changed - they have now gone from roughly $96 million to $108 million - that we can't assume that the money which is provided in':these estimates would necessarily be spent in � same way as it might have been planne<j. at the previous session .

I think that we are probably a bit concerned, knowing that next ye� it will be necessary to raise still more money for Medicare premiums, that we want to �ow that none of the five programs that had been initiated would be jeopardized through any cutting of corners in order to meet Medicare costs. 1 About a year ago a complete review of government programs I and organization was made, and it was decided that in order to give more effective co-ordinated services in health, welfare, housing, social service and so forth, that they should be integrated under one Minister, and that the problems of a family are frequently complex.

In order to �nsure effective delivery of service , there were two objectives in mind, to co-ordinate rehabilitative treatment and assi stance programs at the level where people require help. Now we'd like to know whether it is the intention of the present government to continue with this otganizational structure , to in fact support this progressive advance in thinking, and I think the! question is more pertinent since we note that the railways of the province have now been given' to another Minister and we would like to know whether similar rearrangements will take pl�ce in this department.

Now, concerning mental health and corrections, there is much in the planning stage in respect to psychiatric and � corrections division. Priorities, as1_ I UJrlerstand �m, were in child psychiatry-� Willard Commission's recommendations far the Children's Ho�ital . I

1650 October 10 , 1969 (MRS. TRUEMAN cont'd .) Now this is in the five-year plan under the Health Re sources Fund, and I would like to hear that all is well with that fund and that the $97 million scheme to improve teaching hospitals and medical facilities is progressing satisfactorily. Could the Honourable Minister report as to the pre sent status of the co-ordinating council in the medical centre area? And this also tie s in with the Manitoba Hospital Commission capital building program, and we would be pleased if he could table a detailed plan of the hospital building program.

Now the previous government had initiated a progressi ve program for the care of retardates in St. Amant Ward. Now, I've noticed in the newspaper an

article that a society has been formed and that the beds will be upped to 500. Now there had been considerable financial assis tance made available to keep re tardates in alternative care such as the Tin Glen Community Re sidence in Portage. In co-operation with the Manitoba Assoc iation for Retarded Children they are dev eloping standards in a detailed program for co-ordination of workshops and community re sidence s. Now the expenditur es were approaching $1 million. Has the Minister made any attempt, or had any succe ss in having the St.

Amant Ward declared a home for special care and thereby enabling federal sharing of costs on a needs basis ? I unde rs tand governments in other province s are recei ving federal funds on that basis. The obstinacy of the Federal Government in this matter was most annoying to the previous govern ment .

Now, the Grace Hospital was also being examined as a potentia� facility for the growing numbers of aged requiring psychiatric care •••• under the provincial Department of Health and setting up a board so that it too might qualify as a home for spe cial care, where patients' re source s could be uti lized to wards their care . I expect the Minister is only too aware that old age pensions cannot be used at Selkirk Mental Hospital or at the municipal hospitals and are accumulating in the patients' estates. Now the Federal Government says that our geriatric facility at Selkirk, St.

Amant or other government-run institution s are not share able ·under the Hospital Act of Canada, and unle ss these facilities are set up with private boards re sponsible for the policy and operation, they won't share on a needs basis for people in such facilities. Now in St. Amant Ward with fees as real as Tache Hospital, Ottawa rec ognized certain costs of care as shareable, but because these facilities were placed under the Department's mental health program, Ottawa would not share .

Strong repre sentations had been made and I think we would like to know whether the Minister has now received the approval of Ottawa and if so, where is the legislation necess ary to set up the nece ssary admini stration, and perhaps he could tell us if the Federal Government is sharing the se costs, what moneys will not be required under the present es timates. I hope the Minister will continue the policy of alloting certain grants, sums of money each year to continue the upgrading of mental health facilities.

So much has been done in the past 10 years in this re spect that they are hardly rec ognizable from what they were in 1958. The concept of corrections under this department makes sense . It was hoped that a more effective assess ment of a per son's capabilities and ambitions could be made and a rehabilitation program could be worked out, much as that which is now carrie d out when people enter a hospital.

There were three site s being considere d for a juvenile detention centre and I think there is a leaning towards using the site near here where the pre sent facilitie s are, and I wonder whether a decision has been reached in this re spect . Now combining probation and social service s throughout the province was aimed at developing a more efficient service to the indivi dual, and I trust the staff of the department will recei ve su pport in attaining this goal. It is my understanding that family planning service s were now to be made available in all public health uni ts. This is particularly commendable.

The mother who brings her children to Well Baby clinics for immunization and so forth would find this added service a great con venience. The people who need this service are those who are least aware of the pos sibilitie s and could be easily picked up in these clinic s. We 've all noted that low incomes and large families lead to the probability of having to depend on some form of public assis tance. Prob lems of large families relate to housing, clothing and feeding at a time when costs are high .

Pre ssures and frustration often develop and lead to family breakdown and social ills such as alcoholism, physical abuse , illegal abortions and desertion . Spacing children protects both maternal and child health and is also one of the most important weapons in combatting poverty. F�ni.ily planning is now endorsed by all religious faiths and all levels of government and there can be no ju stification for anything less than prompt action. The threatening problems of

October 10, 1969 1651 (MRS. TRUEMAN cont'd) ..... over-population demands it. Now I wouldn't like any of the fertile imaginations in this House to as sume from these remarks that I am against mother hood. On .the contrary, I think :it's a very fine institution but I firmly uphold the principle that there should be freedom of choi�e. In the City of Winnipeg Welfare Department, our statistics showed last spring that the bkth rate of those on welfare was almost 50 percent higher .than the national average, prior to bur setting up a family plan ning clinic.

In that clinic we have found one case of cervical cancer - this is one mother's life saved - and there are some others who are under investigation,. Now I have mentioned over-population, which is one factor concerning the pollution prob, lem, and the Clean Environment Act is excellent legislation and there is encouragement from the Federal Government, and I trust that the new Minister will gf:ve real leadership in complet ing the major steps taken under the former government to make Manitoba's water, .air and soil the cleanest in the country.

It would be interesting for us tol know whether this can be managed with the present staff or whether there will be need for �ore staff to be added. Now there is a tremendous need for more and more services in the Health and Social Service field. The Department is actually paying rent for welfare recipients. The Minister has expressed an interest in providing housing for the province's responsibilities. We would like to know what his plans are now that he has the opportunity. Have they, as yet, taken shape ?

And also we would like to know about the concept of the integrated services approach in the regional offices, with all the services available in one building . Now this concept is reinforced by the conclu�ions arrived at in the Social Service audit. We wo�ld like to be reass ured that we would continue to push this concept vigorously. 1 Now under the Canada Assi stanqe Plan agreement No , 2, tlie Federal Government was. inviting the province s to take the responsibility for its social services for the Indians.

Now the Canada Ass istance Plan costs were $30 .00 per year per white person and $140 .00 per year per Indian. The Federal Government seemed willing to pay 90 percent of the difference if the Prov ince would take over. I understand they wished us to sign an agreement for one year

whereas on education they are prepared to sign an agreement for 25 years, and we would like to know, since so little has been done in the Indian communities, whether We might indeed face a federal pull-out after another year and find that we had expenditures of nJ.any millions in housing, .roads, health and education facilities. .� I I think there is also the question of a problem now, the fact. that all citizens in this prov ince are entitled to all the good medical care that they need or want.

We . would like to know how we can guarantee delivery of this service in the more remote areas of the province where they are faced with geographic, social and educational barriers to service. The Manitoba average, I believe, is one doctor to about 750 patients; the Canad).an average is around one to 825 Canadians.

We know that Manitoba has 60 Specialists to 40 � .P. 's and perhaps we can re- flect that the quality of care in this province is superior. 'I We 'd like to know what measures you are going to take to el!lsure that the practice of medicine in this province is attractive enough to retain the perso� el that we need. An un limited demand has been released on a limited supply. I mentioned the other day the pos sibil ity of establishing Frontier Nurses courses so that they might take over some of the problems of providing proper care in the north. There are new ways of delivering these services.

In the past, the electrocardiograms have had to be placed in the mail, as have X-rays, and quite a lot of time is consumed by the time they have reached the Spectillist, been interpreted, and mailed back. Now this sort of service could be provided through :cable TV, which is expensive but at least they would get the quality of care that they are now entitled to . The medical data on histories, for instance, could be computerized so that any patient's history would be im mediately available anywhere in the province . It would be interesting to know ·whether you are considering any of these measures.

I would like to quote very briefly from an

article by a Mr. Clyde Hardy, who is an asso ciate dean of the Bowman Gray School of Medicine. As of September this year he wrote that Canada, a suppos edly affluent nation, ranks 20th in the ratio of doctors to population. "Last year the Canadian Medical Assoc iation reported that simply to maintain the present ratio of one Mn for every 825 Canadians, Canada must recruit more than 500 doctors annually from other couni ries . " He also says , "I am not sure of the absolute validity but it's reasonably safe to assume that m�st practising physicians work from 60 to 64 hours a week.

" I believe this covers my principal enquiries, and perhaps if the Minister can give us an answer to these we will be reassured that the legacy that you have inherited in this department will be maintained.

1652 October 10, 1969 :MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. :MR. BEARD : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I kinda think I got tooken away. I look down the Municipal Estimates and I find that northern affairs estimates are under Mun icipal Affair s, but the Minister is - Minister of Northern Affairs ? I won't carry on .• . :MR. GREEN: ... whether, if he is going to deal with northern affai rs , could we deal with the Health and Social Services area first - if that's agreeable to you. :MR.

BEARD: Well I was just going to try and get them both in together, so that just you and I and the chairman and Moses won't be left, but the -- (Interjection) -- he' s had his hand up for a long time and he hasn't had his chance. Mr.

Chairman, really quite frankly, I am concerned about the ind ependent Department of Northern Affairs which we spoke of for some time and for a number of years, and which your party did give their backing to when they were in opposition along with the Liberal Party, and now the Conser vative candidates were giving a great deal of attention to that in Northern Manitoba when we had our last election.

I won't dwell on it too long, I promise you, but I think that if you are going to co-ordinate an orderly development of .Northern Manito ba , then it must be done under some basis and I have found that the Northern Affairs has struck fear into many other departments such as Resources and Communi ty De velopment Officers and Health Officers and such on, where they say, "Oh, you are going to take our little empires away from us ," or "How are we going to operate under Northern Affair.s ?" and such on. I do point out that the bill that was passed was a good one with Northern Affairs.

It never has had a real chance - there has been opposition both from the Ci vil Service areas and from the political areas in respect to this , but I think that it must be all coming home to roost now , the fact that if we are going to bring about an orderly development in Northern Manitob a or - we may as well admit it - almost three quarters of this province, then you must consider the possi bilities of bringing northern affairs under a separate department to co-ordinate these services.

It's not going to cost government a lot more money because the monies from Health or whatever it may be, and Highways and whatever it is , can be brought in under this depart ment and the use of the different departments in co-ordinating these programs. It's not taking away from other departments, but complementing them and providing experts , not only in one field, but a group of experts that are available for all fields of northern development.

I'm not going to waste too much time now because I think it would be wasting it to speak at this time , but maybe it's a gentle warning that when we come back in the middle of winter then we will come back with a lot stronger representation in respect to an independent Department of Northern Affairs. If we branch out from that to universal medical and welfare services in Manitoba, I think that the next one must be ambulance services.

Now then, it is agreed generally, I suppose , or we have had to agree to the fact that the urban areas are going to be the areas in which the central medical services are to be su pplied in Manitoba. The Specialists will be in Winnipeg and we will have to come to the Specialis ts , they cannot come to us; or we cannot expect them to come to us - there is not enough of them.

And I would suggest that you should consid er, particularly in iso lated communities such as Lynn Lake or semi- iso lated ones, both Churchill and others, that if people have to come in for treatment -- and I know this is going to cost you money and I must admit right now , speaking as an Independent, you have inheri ted all these problems that have not been looked after in the past and so they come home to roost on your doorstep.

But if you were in Lynn Lake , .there is one doctor there and he has so much work that he refuses to do any type of operating because of course he doesn't have the time or the facilities or the assis tance of another doctor to do any type of operating , so consequently they have to go out and it costs them money to go out, and granted the union and the mine have got together and said the mine provides a service out for emergency ambulance, but otherwise you travel by air , and you can I think by now respect the cost for travelling alone , and when you add on top of that the different services that -- well, just staying here , somebody coming down with somebody that is vitally sick, it costs quite a bit, so if people could pay even for that particular type of ambulance service into Winnip eg, whether it be by TransAir or whether it be on a charter or such, and if they have a doctor's certificate on that and a receipt that they have paid for it, then I think that you should take this into considera tion so that all people of Manitoba pay a certain fee for ambulance servi ces.

Whether it be a $1 0. 00 or a $15. 00 fee in Winni peg, then I think under this service it should be the same cost assessed to somebody that lives further away because we must recognize, I don't know what it costs from Neepawa, I

October 10, 1969 1653 (MR. BEARD cont'd. ) . . . . . suppose it would be $50 .0 0 or $60.0 0, and these are different costs and when you relate them to what the costs are in the far noi-th, then I think that there should be something done. Now I don't say that you should have a plane located in each isola ted community ready to fly out because of an ambulance service, because quite likely it wouldn't be necessa ry for may be months or weeks at a time but there are problems, there are problems that come back to the Minister of Finance, I suppose, in utilities of communication.

I The radio co=unication is very out- dated in these areas. Many of them are not on a 24-hour basis. So consequently the people live -- and they have got used to it.

They have got used to living without these services , but unfortunately the civil servants and the families that come fro1Jl more sophistica ted corn- , munities do not , or find it hard to get along without being at least b touch or available to be in touch with a doctor, and I would hope that maybe you could think of utilizing Thompson and The Pas and Flin Flon at a later date for referral services for nurses and health workers and such on, in the is olated co=unities where they could be in touch with the doctor on a 24-hour basis.

And please do not let people tell you in your department that they have access to doctors on a 24-ho ur basis , because they do not. They do not have access to doctors , to call upon doctors to advise them as to what to do , and this is one of the big problems and it is a growing problem. There are more and more people in the north all the time; there are more and more isola ted communities and I'll drop it at that, because_if you are g�ing to be chair � an of the task force and we are going to be rubbing noses with this all through the area, I think that we have got to take a look at Churchill.

We maybe naively fell into tiling responsibility for the hospital at Churchill when it should have been left under the responsibility of the Federal Government. It was operating and we inherited a run-down hospiful; we inherited problems in respect to the many costs of the hospital services in that area. T�e services at Churchill we have inherited and I think they should be charged back to the Federal Government in the case, and they should pay a better share than what we are taki ng.

I think that we should consider a travelling clinic, and I have propose d it a few times and it's been smiled at , or filed away , but there's no reason why a travelling clinic cannot be placed on the Hudson B;;tY· railroad line so that there be a doctor service of some type or other, nursing and dental service, that would travel along the line and be able to go into the commun ity. Now this would be gn a short-term basis perhaps.

I know th�t they have a plan or they are considering a plan for the far north in respect to interns is it, I I believe, and such on, and this would be a wonderful place where they could tra vel back and forward and even fly from this service vehicle on the Hudson Bay line to the iso lated community, and visit them more on a regular basis.

Now I know your department will come back and say, "Well, we've already got this in The Pas , but it isn't worth it ," and you and I will find tli is out when we travel back and forward in the is olated co=unities, and I think we'll have a much different attitude to ward the health services when it comes to the real isolation and lirlng in the real is olation , the places that do not have nursing services , the places where somebody has to speak to an Indian Councillor before they can get approval to go and see the nurse, and then they ha ve to get him to take him by canoe over to see the nurse, and then they have to find an interpreter to interpret.

And this is what the nurses are demanding in this one area and it's from a 9:00 to 5:00 basis. If it's after 5:00 it's tough luck - come back another day. I'm going to make sure that you hear this one particular cas� which I spoke of a little while ago, where a child was taken over and refused attention and �y the time they got back home it was dead. But you won't hear about it by being in here , but you hear about it going out there.

It wasn't sent in for an autopsy. ·But these, I think , are maybe cases that we don't par ticularly want brought up in the papers, and ••• pleased to see the press gallery is pretty well empty when we bring them up, but I would like to make sure that these are the different I types and they're not isola ted. They're not isola ted by any means as to one or two cases. This goes on all the time. Men and women and children do have te�rible accidents and you can be weathered out as far as the radio is concerned for a day or two days at a time. The planes can't get in.

I don't know what can be humanly done, can po1=1sibly be done about it, but I feel that the radio service is terrible in a growing area such as Hasse tt in Manitoba, and if the radio service can be made on a twenty-four hour basis , then health workers , practical nurses can be trained and sent in so that they can be also trained to operate the radio and com municate with the doctor and at least have a chance of helping somebody and the doctor being . I I _ _I

1654 October 10, 1969 (MR. BEARD cont'd. ) . • • . • able to help them. But these things have always been ignored in the past. They've been refused even though we' ve spoken on them, even though I' ve written reams of letters. It is the reluctance of people to do things. They pass the buck - it's a federal responsibility; it's a provincial responsibility. And yet I have the feeling in my own heart that if the province would accept some of the respon sibility in initiating a program, I feel confident that Indian Affairs will pay the bill.

Now the Member for Fort Rouge says beware of this, and we have been caught in the past on those type of programs , but they're still Manitobans; they vote; and I think that the day is past when we can say, "You're a federal responsibility.

We no longer can accept any responsibility for what happens in this community." So I would hope, and I am very enthusiasti c, Mr.-Chairman, that the Minister is going to be the Chairman of the task force, because I' m sure he's going to be with this group and hear these things, and we'll take the Assis tant Clerk along to be his radio operator perhaps, and he can do the transmitting. I see Moses is .still with us and says while we're still winning. Thank you. · MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I will only be very brief.

What the Member for Fort Rouge has sa id I can only reiterate, but I would like to make two or three points to the Minister, and one of them the Member for Fort Rouge has mentioned, the Member for Churchill has also mentioned, and I would like to mention it again, and this is the Canad a Assistance Plan, Part Two, and the inherent problems which the Minister will have when he deals with the Federal Government on this particular matter. We all know the intention of the Federal Government with regard to the field of Medicare.

We know the proposals of the Federal Gov ernment with regard to the ,Department of Indian Affairs, and it' s in this field that the Canada Pension Plan has its relationship. I think it's very important that the Minister study carefully before arriv ing at any negotiations, final negotiations with the Federal Government on this particular matter. The short term benefits that could be derived could be wiped out in a very few years. Furthermore, I would like to point out to the Minister that the problems in Manitoba are probably different than they are in Ontario.

For example, in Ontario . 7 percent of the popula tion is of Indian descent in the Province of Ontario

whereas in Manitoba it is more than five times greater than that, so that a formula that would be acceptable in Ontario might be very unac ceptable in Manitoba. Another field that does concern me is the duplication of services in the Social Service field, and I would suggest to the Minister that he look into this particular matter.

Without saying any more on general terms, I would like to come down to a few parochial items and one of them is on behalf of the Leader of our Party whereby in this field of -- Par ticularly in the field of the dental supply in the province, there has been assistance in the past I believe roughly to the amount of $25, 000 per year to assist dentists in relocating within the Province of Manitoba. Now I don't know whether that particular fund has been exhausted this year or not, but I understand they are having a little problem in the Town of Minnedosa with reg!,ll'd to that particular item.

The second point is in the Villa ge of Strathclair where they seem to be having a problem with a plan to build a senior citizens ' home, where the percent age - 20 percent I believe - that's supposed to be raised initially in the local field now does not seem to be acceptable by some of the bureaucracy in the department. And I would ask the Minister to check into that particular field and I would appreciate it if he would advise me as soon as possible what the outcome would be. I'd be glad to talk to him afterwards on this par ticular matter. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I will not take much time. I want to ra ise a question to the Minister at the present time because he may recall that we probably spent somewhere around two weeks on these estimates just a few months ago and perhaps the Minister himself probably took more time on them than anyone else so he's quite familiar with what I have to say. MR. GREEN: If the member will go through the records , I took almost no time on these estimates. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Chairman , the point that I wanted to raise - and he knows what my feeling is in respect to housing and I'm not going to go into that area because I did speak at some length during the last estimates and had some resolutions in this respect - but the point

October 10, 1969 1655 I (MR. PATRICK cont'd. ) • • . . • that I wish to make at this tim�, and I feel it's most urgent, is that the Minister if he has any spare time before the next SessiQn to perhaps again maybe give some attention to housing needs for infirm persons. This is a real concern at the present time because many infirm persons who are in a younger age group - it could be people in 18, 20 or 25 - they are housed in places where probably the average age is 75 or 77 and I don't think it's fair to these young people ·who have different interests and some are attending school or colleges.

So there may be such a thing that perhaps in some of the elderly folks homes that are going up if maybe the whole floor, or couple of floors could be reserved for infirm persons in a younger age group. I will not proceed to debate this or make a long speech, but perhaps he can look into this area. I know that he may have a brief that was presented to the Hellyer Task Force and to the government just a while ago by the Canadian Paraplegic Association on the needs, the require-: menta for Winnipeg particularly and Manitoba.

If he has not the brief on the housing require ments I'll be prepared to supply him one, and maybe he may have some government policy in this respect by the next session. · MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: . . . made the point before and I want to emphasize, is that I feel that welfare for many is too easy and too generous. Many people to my opinion on welfare are living too good. Welfare should be accepted as welfare and not as security. We have talked about this in relation to the minimum wage, that some people on welfare are better off than people that are working.

In fact I believe there's quite a few in this class. Some of the ques tions that should be asked of people on welfare, and which must not be asked, is their drinking habits; how many cars they might have in the family. I heard a member say here today that in . one place they take their licence plates away from them. Now I don.'t know whether I'd go that far or not but they shouldn't be having two cars in one family.

We believe in free enterprise , whether we call ourselves sociaiists or anything else, but let's not drift from a type of private enterprise into what you could call a welfare state because this is the way it seems to be getting. Everybody says lf I'd accept welfare life would be easier for me. And we know this. So if the Minister will say that he will watch the abuses of welfare in his de�artment, I'll be very happy. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIEL GmARD (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, I'd llke to very briefly make one point.

I am not of the opinion necessarily that welfare has been ab�sed to no end and I'm not of the opinion that welfare is not a necessary program. I am conce�ned with one aspect how ever, and that is that I feel in our society today we must do all we dan to stimulate the ambiti ous and encourage those who are less ambitious to be as productivej as possible.

In the present system of welfare assistance, my understanding is that a person receiving welfare who suc cessfully seeks employment has a reduction in the welfare availablJ, to that person to an amount, a very considerable amount and proportional to the earnings. This � eans that someone who is on welfare who obtains work has automatically a reduction in the weilfare receivable.

I know that this might be a far-reaching and complicated problem; however1, I think that this is an area which should be studied in the hope that somehow we can assis� these people with welfare where it's necessary, however at the same time encouraging them tf get employment without loss of welfare to the poin t where we discourage them. 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. 1 MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Well, Mr. Chairma.y, I'm going to be very brief. There was just a few things that I want to say this afternoon to the Minister.

First of all, I do like to say, knowing his predecessors, I want to say to hlm that it was very kind of him, the words that he expressed in his opening remarks.

Second!)\, there is one problem that has been brought to my attention insofar as his department is concetned and that is relating to the senior citizens, that is a pensioner who has none other than his �ension as an income and if they apply, say a husband and wife, for a Medicare card when they don't have any more, there is a difference of about $40. 00 which I believe does not allow them to qualify for this Medicare card and I was wondering if the Minister could check into this and see what could be done about it. I do also want to concur with my colleague , the Member for Pembina.

I know, Sir, that you have a department that is in this respect very difficult to control and to police. Human beings being as they are , you have the human element to contend with and there are people probably who are receiving welfare payments, and rightfully so, because probably through no

165o October 10, 1969 (MR . EINARSON cont'd. ) .••.. fault of thelr own that this is the reason why, but there are those who probably will take advantage of a situation and as a result there are problems. My constituents bring it to my attention that quite often they hear of people, while they don't want to make any specific cases, they say that there are people who are on welfare and it's a cost to the taxpayers and one can't be too critical in that respect. So I just leave these few thoughts with you, Mr.

Minister, taking into account and to watch the situation where people may be receiving welfare that may be not necessary. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Health. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I want to remind the honourable members that we are pas sing estimates which were put forward by the previous Conservative administration and that we have not in these estimates reflected a program which has been formulated in accordance with our own thinking.

Nevertheless, there ls a great deal of the program that we have no argu ment with and I'm sure that honourable members, because they created it, have no real argu ment with it. So I hope that most of the questions that have been put to me, I ask the indulgence of honourable members to accept the fact that most of them I will take as notice and that they are areas that we will give great consideration to, I can undertake that to the members, in the formulation of the program which we will present in our own estimates during the next Legis lative Session.

I want to thank all of the members for contributing to the debate and for con tributing to the matters which we will have to give consideration to during the session. Now I will deal specifically with some of the things raised. The Member for Swan River has asked about an extended personal care centre. I can tell him that we are quite aware of 1he request in the department because the people in the area have done an excellent job in formulating what they want.

My understanding is that the recommendation is that it is approved in principle and it will just be a question of priorities as to when it is reached, and I hope we will move in rapid haste in dealing with the problem. The Member for Portage la Prairie dealt with the housing and urban renewal problems. I know that he knows that much of our problem in urban renewal has been created by the federal withdrawal. We are dealing with that question now. We hope that we have made a good ca se to the department and we hope that they will give consideration to the problems that have been created.

The Member for Churchill spoke about northern affairs, an ambulance service, and I can . assure him that this meets with our sympathy. I am hoping that the Task Force on Northern Mfalrs will be dealing with many of the questions that he raised. I place a great deal of faith in this task force in terms of formulating the new dlrection for the department, and I would like to deal with it, when he refers to a particular situation which he dealt with and says it shouldn't be brought up, I would urge him to give me the kind of information that he did give me so that we can deal with the question specifically.

I certainiy think that this is the kind of information that we want brought to our attention. The Member for Rock Lake dealt with Medicare cards. I rather think that 1hat's going to be largely redundant. In view of the fact of the manner in which medicare is now going to be financed, there will be a very small amount of people who would really be involved with medi care cards.

It still will be a problem and there still will be an arbitrary point at which you can get the card and not get the card , but I think that the problem of cards is largely eliminated by the program which says that the medicare will be paid for on the basis of income tax. The Member for Birtle-Russell dealt with one question which he asked me to look into and I will, the question of the Canada Assistance Plan and our adopting the program with re gard to the native peoples.

All I can say to him is that eventually Manitoba has to grow up; we have to live in a society where we are all under the same jurisdiction in this regard in principle , and subject to all of the considerations that proper consultation and a proper imple mentation, but in principle we believe that every citizen in Manitoba is a Manitoban and should be entitled to the same services. On the other hand, we want to get the best financial deal that we can out of the Federal Government, and both to the Member for Birtle-Russell and the Member for Fort Rouge, I hope that we will negotiate to your sati sfaction.

The Member for Fort Rouge is back in the House. I want to say flrst of all that I believe that probably the research that she has got in connection with my particular department prob ably comes from a person or people who have been much more closely connected and associa ted with the department for a longer time than I have. I congratulate her for her research and I know that she has raised many of the problems which we are wrestling with. I can tell her

October 10, 1969 1657 (MR . GREEN cont'd. ) . . . • • that as far as the department is concerned, we believe at the present time in a co-ordinated department. But this means more !than linking the personnel under one Minlster; it means co-ordinating the services. We don'* think that that has really progressed very far and we hope that steps will be taken so that thb dlssemination of services under Health and Social Services will not merely mean that the Mirltster happens to be the admin- • I !strati ve head of the personnel who worked in either department before.

We have not made a great deal of progress in that area and we are hoping that we will 6ontinue and we do agree that there is validity in keeping the departments. together. With regard to the Health Resources Fund , this fund appears to have marked time for a long period of time. I can advise you that the Minlsters concerned'have met with the repre sentative of the Health Board ••• Council and material will be going to Cabinet very shortly in � re�� i . With regard to St.

Amant, I can advise the member that I sp9ke to the federal people in charge of that particular aspect of assistance not more than seven days ago. They have tried to indicate that they do not feel that they should share. We feel that there are facilities of this kind in which they are sharing and we have not indicated that we accept their opinion and· we . think that there is room to move in this area.

The same is true with regard to the people who are in the various mental hospitals and whom we .think we should be getting some sharing for, · The delivery of medlcal services in remote areas, this is something that we know that we have to be dealing with and something that was raised by the Member for Churchill as well. The medlcal ratio, the number of doctors in Manitoba, we' ve: met with .the University of Manitoba, the Manitoba Medical Association and the College of .Phy$iclans and Surgeons.

We have asked them to co-operate in meeting with us to devise a progr�m for both recruitment of . personnel and retention of personnel in the Province of Manitoba. They all agree that this is a good idea and they have indicated that they will serve and we hope to. start meeting on active programs immedlately after the close of the Legislatl ve Session. The Ju venile Detention Centre. I hope I'll be in a position to make an announcement with regard to that particular facility within a period of two weeks. . The family Planning and the Public Health Unit.

We have met with the previously sub versive organizations that were dealing in family planning and we f�el that we will pe making some steps in this connection. I want to indlcate to members where they say that the welfare families are the ones that have the most children, the question of providlng contraceptive services and contraceptive devices to welfare people is also an expense and I would ask meiil bers to appreciate that this is an expense. Plans for housing. We feel that there has to be certainly a new imput into our housing program.

In particular, we feel that the public has to start accepting the notion that public housing is a form of housing which should be available_ tq_ all. As a1matter of fact, I'm sorry the Member for Sturgeon Creek is not here because he talked aboutlpeople not wanting sub sidies. I have heard no complaint from all of the citizens who are getting national assistance. National Housing Act Loans.

These people are all people in the ov�r $8 , 000 category, and once the Government guarantees their loan, whether they like it or not, they are getting assist ance, and they seem to have no shame in living in these houses which they mortgage to the extent of now $3 5, 000. I think that once the total attitude to public housing is the same as the attitude of the upper middle-class to the housing that they have had subsidized to themselves at public expense under National Housing Act, that we'll make great inroads. As a matter of fact, a profound observation was made to me by the Minister in charge, Mr.

Andres , when he indlcated that in Hamilton they had a full recdvery housing program which was started in 1953, and they are now embarrassed because the rents on those homes are about $70 a month

whereas the cost of buildlng those homes and renting them today are $140 a month, which indicates that the inflationary push which increases the rents on housing does not operate in terms of public housing. And by the way, these homes did not cost the communities one cent; no tax money went into them. The houses paid for themselves, they are now owned by the community and the rents are half of what the �ents are in the pri vate housing area. So I would think that it's a good business proposition; let me put it to you in that .

I way, that it's cheaper, It's more equitable and that it's more efflcii nt, that we go into this on a big way and keep the rents down because it's in those areas - a.Jild I feel that nobody will have any stigma attached to them living in a house that was built on the basis of our collective efforts� I am happy to hear members of the other side endorse this kind of proposition because

1658 October 10, 1969 (MR. GREEN cont'd.) • . • • • I really believe that at no expense to ourselves , as a matter of fact at great financial gain to ourselves, we should be entering the public housing area in a big way and I hope that nobody will attach some doctrinaire position to this. Let's look at it from the point of view of the fact that it's cheaper, it's more efficient and it's more equitable. With regard to regional offices and the Social Service Audit, I have made several state ments on that in the House. I don't know whether the Member for Fort Rouge wants me to say anything more.

I have indica ted that we are now looking at this question and giving all of the agencies involved an opportunity to make repres entation. There are several questions, specific ones that I have left unanswered. It's not that I don't want to deal with them, I am asking members to put me in a position as having taken these questions as notice and when we come out with our estimates, I hope that the answers will be contained in those estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Resolutions 49 to 56 were passed. ) Department completed. MR. CHERNIACK: Industry and Commerce, Page 17, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRI\IAN: Department of Industry and Commerce. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR.

ENNS: Mr.� Chairm an, I wanted to take this opportunity to add a few comments with respect to the announcement that was made last night, and I can think of no other occasion other than While we are dealing with the Department of Industry and Commerce and on the Minister's sal ary to make a very brief statement and to make it very plain and very clear just where we on this side of ·the House, the Conservative Party, stand on the question of fair wages , equitable wages, the standard of living for Manitoba' s workers is concerned.

I don't think there is anybody in this House, in this Chamber, that accepts for one mom ent the fact that any minimum wage we stand is necessarily, or is that level of income that is really satis factory in terms of providing the kind of quality of life that we think most Manitobans should enjoy.

There has been a long-standing mis conception as to what the minimum wage in fact is , or portrays to be, so I want to make it very clear that despite what the honourable members opposite may think, the question of the minimum wage has been one of considerable debate but it's been debated unfairly or unevenly in many instances because the concept has not been fully appreciated or fully understood in many instances, in the sense that those of us who have found ourselves in a position of defending a particular minimum wage have been placed in the position · of saying that, you know, this is an acceptable level, this is an acceptable income level for Canadians or Manitobans.

During the times that we were in government, we had our views on how the income levels of Manitobans could be improved. There were not easy pat answers for that. They were contained in a very sincere belief that we can, through improving the economic climate in our province, through increasing the number of high wage industries in our province. through increasing the number of job openings and job opportunities in the province , thereby putting labour in a better competitive position generally speaking, that in this way the far more significant rises in income levels could be accomplished.

But the honourable members opposite, when they were sitting on this side of the House, they had some specific answers and they did not need statistical information or data or reviews. They called for the minimum wage and they kept referring to the minimum wage as being the status of determining, you know, an acceptable income or not.

They kept referring to the minimum wage, aside from what other factors it had on the economy, they kept referring to the minimum wage as being a wage that should be debated on whether or not it is a fair or an equitable income or a reasonable income for Manitobans to enjoy in this province. Well, generally speaking, this has been the approach taken opposite.

Now I would have to feel that it's been on that premise , it lias been on that premise es sentially that the suggestions and the support and the calls for a minimum wage - and I'm not going to worry about the precise figure, whether it is $1. 50, $1. 75 or $2. 00 that has emanated from the NDP members of the caucus in the past - that certainly have moved in this general direction.

Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I want to make it very plain and very clear that the Conservative caucus , Conserva tive group is every bit as concerned about the level of wages, particularly earned by those who are unfortunate that happen to be at that lower strata of our labour force here in Manitoba. But, Mr. Chairman, we have been again led by the nose to some extent by this government, particularly in the past few weeks and months, when through every local newspaper, the papers here and the press, we have seen the

Octo ber 10, 1969 1659 (MR. ENNS cont'd. ) • • • • . advertisements of the Minimum Wage Board; we have heard about the meetings of the Minimum Wage Board; and yesterday evening the . Minister of Labour has indic ated to us that the Minimum Wage Board at this particul ar jp oint was not prepared to make a report and the government has acted. ' Well this is fine , Mr. Chairman.

What I' m saying is I don't quite understand. why this government went through the folderol of the Minimum Wage Board. and the expense of holdi ng meetings and the expense ·Of advertising in papers in the first inst � ce, because the answer was here; the answer was here -in resol ution form, in speech form and in political promises form during the last election. And ther e's no sur prise. Again as I have indica ted. to the Minister of Finance when he introd uced his budget, there is no surpr ise that perso nal income tax is up or that corpora tion taf is up.

Anybody that �as . listening to the election speeches of the NDP candidates had to be aware of the fact that this . was in fact going to happen. And anybody that was listening to the NDP speeches and election . . · promises during this last election was aware that the minimum wage was going to go uJi� 'A nd . I think it should have gone up, but, Mr.

Chai rman, why this little ri ng-aro tind�the ro�es with . the Minimum Wage Board, whic h they are not prepared to accept fue recomnien dations from , or not await while they have their reco lllJll,endations from, and quite frankly I suggest -you know', fellows, forget it; establish your wage; live up to y� promise and: the promises that you made . . . .

I .. • ·. , to the people of Manito ba, . and among the many other promises tha� you made to the people of · · Manitoba was - I think the fair figure was $1._5 0 an hour . --(Interje ction) --Well, that's their top range of figur e, but all I'm saying is that was the promise. · · · ' There were other promises made. I don't know how many members on the opposite side . I . are sitting in their seats today on the promise that the first $2, OOO j of asse ssment on their muni cipal tax bill was going to be alleviated. That was another promise.

I think sp!Jle of t!J,e members currently running under the party banner in the muni cipal elections are running on that same platform again. Now, gentlemen - (Interje ction) --, there' s nothing wrong with it, it may be a very worthw hile thi ng, but I • • • · MR. CHAIRMAN:. May I just say to the honourable member that I wish to allow him co�r sider.able latitude but I hope that he Q.oesn't go into a lengthy speech concerning the ele ction only, but that he keep in mind that we're on a specific department and not range too widely or rehash the election for us. j .• MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As you know, I have always taken yot1r advice ser iously whenever you' ve been in the Chair and I will sit down right now. I'll tell you 'right now, based on the promises that you made to the people of Manit oba, we expected more than a dime and we expected it sooner. . I MR. PAULLEY: .•• obj ected when I brought in a dime. ' MR. CHAIRMAN: (Resolutions 57 to 64 were passed. ) That completes the Departme nt of Industry and Commer ce. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairm an, perha ps it's imprudent of .me to rise to speak after the estima tes so obviously would be passed without prolonged disctission, but I feel it would be the right thing to do to indicate to member s opposite , in accordance with the request of the Honourabl e Member for Riv er Heights this morning , to indicate wb:ether there's any major change in policy contemplated under the estimates of the departme*t.

In the case of the De part ment of Industry and Commer ce, I can say that the only change in policy is one which has al ready been outlined to the House during the time of discussion of supplementary supply when I indicated we were bringing in supplementary supply for approximately $3 25, 000 more simply to give the department the capabili ty to re spond to any federal initi!l tives or to enable the de partment to go along with , accompany any new federal initiati ves. 1 Also, I could in dica te to members opposite that there is one other policy change, although I would not regard it as being significant for the current fis cal year , and that is that insofar as the Departm ent of Industry and Commerce was in the past involved: consi derably with questions rela ting to expansion of the livestock feeder industry, that in the future I would expect that the Department of Industry and Commer ce will only, through its Food Products Proces sing Branch , be involved with the livestock industry and will ilot be so directly �volved with the financing of food production per se of the livestock feeder operations as such. i MR.

SIDNEY SPIV AK, Q. c. (River Heights) : Mr. Chairman', I wonder if the First Milr ister could just answer a question. I'm really not sur e of what he meant by the last statement. Is he trying to indicate that the department before was involved in financing the livestock feeder

1660 October 10, 1969 (MR. SPIV AK cont'd. ) • . . • • operations? MR. SCHREYER: No, I wasn't indicating that they were involved directly with the financ ing of livestock feeder operations, but I think my honourable friend will agree that in previous years the department was rather closely involved with helping livestock feeder operations in putting together all of the elements in order to get such an operation going and to give them advice and assistance in obtaining lines of credit.

I'm not suggesting that the department will not stand ready to provide similar assistance; I'm just suggesting that the energy of the depart; ment will be slightly diverted from this role in the future. MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand that - the Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, we're through now with Industry and Commerce. The Minister of Government Services has other duties this evening and I wonder if we could move to Page 10 . MR. CHAIRMAN: Page 10 of the Estimates. The Department of Government Services. The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, again here I do not intend to make any lengthy introduc tory remarks, ·except again to state publicly that I have received the most excellent cooperation and accord from the Deputy of the Department of Government Services, Mr. Brako, and the various heads of the departments within the Ministry of Government Services. I don't think, Mr. Chairman, that I should go into any further detail than that and would appreciate any com ments by the honourable members in respect to this department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, may I be the first on this side to congratulate the Honour able Minister in the responsibility he has taken over. My concern is very minimal probably, and I wonder if I may ask at this particular time, is he responsible for the automobile trans portation of the government? MR. PAWLEY: The automobiles ? MR. Bll.. TON: Transportation generally, that is automobiles and trucks. MR. PAWLEY: No, this would come within the confines of the Department of Transpor- tation. MR. BIT.. TON: • . . a little fun when we get to that. However , in the meantime , my . • MR.

CHAIRMAN: • • • interrupt the honourable member ? MR. PAWLEY: ••. mean the government cars ? MR. Bll.. TON: Yes, that's right. MR. PAWLEY; Yes, you are correct. -- (Interjection) MR. BILTON: I have no intention of talking about insurance. MR. PAWLEY: I'm sorry, I was thinking you were referring to the Motor Vehicle Branch and what not. Yes , the government cars do rest within this department. MR. BILTON: Over the years , Mr.

Chairman, there has been a concer� the province has automobiles spread out all over the province and it has come to my attention in no uncertain terms from time to time that when automobiles are to be repaired or new motors and that sort of thing put on, they have to be brought into Winnipeg to be taken care of, and I wonder if some consideration could not be given to the local people in this industry where automobiles are lo cated, that is provincial automobiles are located, with a view to enhancing the provision of repairs and giving jobs rather than bringing them in so far.

And the other thing that strikes me rather forcibly is this building. I have been con cerned, both as Speaker whenit was my responsibility to take care of the affairs of this Assembly, that this building in itself and the days in which we are living and some of the things that are happening around the country, and I feel, Sir, that our protective staff of this particu lar building is not what is ought to be, and I wondered if the Minister in his wisdom would have this matter surveyed with a view to better surveillance made of the building from time to time. I think in this way that something may be pre vented.

I do know that facilities that are available are sometimes abused by the public, and I feel that possibly one of these days we'll be sorry if something isn't done to oversee this situation. Now we ha ve heard - I have no confirmation of it - but I understand that within the last few days the restaurant was broken into and funds were taken, which is an indication as to some reason for looking over this matter. I suggest to you, Mr.

Minister, that with a very simple q>era tion, any given individual with any thought in mind of destruction could come into this building almost at any time and do something that we would all regret, that could destroy

October 10, .1969 1661 (MR. BILTON cont'd. ) . • • . • this building beyond replacement. I'm merely making this suggestion: in the interest of seeing to it that no matter what money may be spent in the security and proper protection of this building, will for all time be worthwhile. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La VerendryJ. MR. BARKM:AN: Mr. Chairman, I rise only to join the Minister in complimenting some of the staff. I don't know at tiines what we'd do without people like Mr. Joe Brako or Mr. Evans , our Printer, and of course Ray back here.

I'm sure during this part of the session our Printer must sometimes wonder what kind of demands can be filled or not. But also beyond that, I'd like to say just a few words on the way our guides have bee� doing a service not to us as members only but to the many thousands of tourists, and I would think most of them - I should say all of them as far as I know and I'm sure they are all of them -- that will leave me on the fl

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-68
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 68.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	deacea67339225ff9c1fc5e80bf4284a85923a8a

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