LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 7 July, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee will come to order. We are on Reso lution 33, Commu nity Services, Corrections, Item 5. on Page 35 - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I wonder if the Minis ter could tell me where I could find some of these programs like the Temporary Absenc e Prog ram , the Fine Options Program, the Remand Centre which are not listed under any of the four items under this particular item. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: The Remand Centre would show up under Adult Corrections; Fine Options would show up under Probation; and T.A.'s would also be under Adult Corrections. MR. CHAIRMAN: Anything under 5.(

a) Admin istration - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Did I understand the Min ister correct ly when she said there were 10 SY's in this particular item? - (Interjection) - Ok ay, what is the function of the 10 SY's? If they're not involved with the Remand Centre, the Temporary Absence Program, Fine Options, what type of programs are they involved with and what have they accomplished during the last year? HON. M. SMITH: Four nu rses and six people to provide us flexibility to accommodate vacation time.

We're operating at fairly full capacity , so the extra staff on vac ation time gi ve us some opportunit y to gain efficiencies. Sor ry, I had jumped ahead to the program end. In the Administration, there are 10 people, the same as last year. I think I outlined who they were: an ADM, a chief investigator , two policy analysts, two admin. and financial support, two clerical and two term. MR. A. BROWN: Ok ay, I ask the Min ister, what purpose do these people serve under the administrative direction for adult on juvenile commu nit y and institutional correctional programs?

What programs have they been involved with during the last year? HON. M. SMITH: Well, they provide the direction to juven ile correct ions, probation services and adult correctional institutions. They're also responsible for the supp ort servic es that includ e in vestiga tions, in spections and audi ts, general and specialized admin istrative functions. MR. A. BROWN: In other words, Mr.

Chairman, we can get back into this particular area at any time when 1521 we're talking about the Remand Centre or when we're talking about the Correc tiona l Yo uth Centres and Probation because, ultimately , this group that is responsible for the program ming and the planning for all of these areas, so do I understand the Minister correctly, that we can go after this particular group under any one of those particular areas? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minis ter is nodding in af firmation; that won't be recorded in Hansard. 5.(a)- pass; 5.(a)( 1) -pass; 5.(a)(2)-pass. 5.(

b) Adult Corrections - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to get into the rehabilitation programs and ask what kind of rehabilitation programs for the inma tes of the adult correctional institutions have been implemented and are being implemented. HON. M. SMITH: Our general approach in this field is to protect society, to assure that the inmate is held accou ntable for the offence they committed, and that they are helped to develop some sense of responsibility to the commun ity.

The work programs that we have them involved in are brush clearing, highw ay cleanup, Dutch Elm Disease programs, municipal projects, museum development, charitable organizations, things like fixing up camps, painting, brush cleaning and making of trails in the parks, house repair s for the elderly, river bank restoration and cleanup, playgrounds for day cares, some production of garden produce. There's a toy factory.

We have education programs including some skill development, particularly learning the use of tools at out-camps like Egg Lake - at Egg Lake is where they're learning building skills - a tailor shop, small repairs. There are literacy programs ava ilable and life skills programs. We also have the community service and Fine Option commit tees that help provide options for - well, I can't just say in mates - in some cases, instead of going to a correctional institution.

We have community justice committees, who also help us to work on alternativ es and to find the type of community service options that are available to people, in stead of either paying a fine or going to a correct ional institution. In the temporary absence field, people are permitted to go away on certain work assignments, a special job search for medical reaso ns, or for very specific education programs. MR. A.

BROWN: If I thought I had a particular program or whatever, that I thought I would be able to make use of the people at Heading ley - and I suppose most of the people that we are talking about in this particular program are in Heading ley - how would I go about applying and would I qualify to get work done by the inmates at Headingley? HON. M. SMITH: Arnold, I can't judge whether you would qual ify or not, but the se would be the factors

Monday, 7 July, 1986 that would be looked at. Yo u could either phone Headingley direct or phone Fred Saunders in the department. Any call to the department could be referred to the right place. The criteria they would look at would be whether your project was non-profit; whether it served to the general benefit of the communi ty; and whether it was consider ed to be a good experience for the inma tes. The other factor we've looked at is that it does not substitute for paid labour. We have no desire to undercut paid employment. MR. A.

BROWN: In other words, if a municipality was in need of getting some repair work done to their machine shed or had a brushing program that they wanted to go into; or if any other organization needed to have some work done, a curling rink for instance, needed to have some repairs done to a roof or whatever; these would be people that would qua lify and they could be asking for work to be done by this group? HON. M. SMITH: Most of those would likely qualif y.

Again, because we're trying not to undercut regular work crews, we would pay particular attention to things like some riverbank clean-up or clean-up after a tornado; things that were occasional events. MR. A. BROWN: These are all noble concerns, there's no doubt about that, but my question remains; how does this prepare these people to go back into the work force? HON. M. SMITH: Well, it's better than idleness; it's some experience in work that builds self-concept. lt certainly keeps healthier bodies and healthier minds to be engaged in constructive work.

Some people get some sense of both sa tis fact ion and probably psychological therapy out of doing something of benefit to the communit y. They often feel they'v e paid back, in a sense, to compensate for things that they have done tha t have landed them in the in carcerated situation. For example, we have many day care pla ygrounds, play structures made by the inmates and toy repair and so on; and often a lot of them have never had a great deal of nurturing and for them to learn how to do something for the community and, particularly for children, is bound to be very therapeutic. MR. A.

BROWN: The Min ister made reference to this, and I un derstand there is a large percentage of the inma tes in the adult correct ions who are illiterate and is the type of person who is there under a short-term stay. Can the Min ister tell me what we are doing for this type of person in order to get them a rehabilitation program going so that they can be acceptable and provide job opportunities for them upon their release? HON. M.

SMITH: There's been quite a development in the literacy programs, particularly some computers that give simple upgrading programs, and that can lead into programs after they're released at the community colleges. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, that is a very general statement. I would like to know some specific programs that are geared toward this type of person. Are we continuing a program with them after they have been, on release, whether it's temporary absence, whether they're out on parole or whatever the case?

Are we continuing with this type of person so that we can have a meaningful sort of rehabilitation program which is going to prepare them? Because if not, if we're just going to dabble at this, then of course we're just wasting our time. HON. M. SMITH: Again, I remind the member of what he said earlier on, that a lot of them are in for short terms. What we have in the computer assisted training is a very flexible way, flexible in terms of time and rate of progress for the indi vidual.

We have 17 IBM comput ers so th at they can get basic English, Mathematics for Grades 1-12 , and about 10 percent of our inma te population are currently participa ting. We then link them into the new types of programs available in the community colleges which are broken down into modules which are very adap table to individual rates of progress; so we do our best to make the stay more than just puni shment, and hopefully to get people on a more constructive path when they leave. MR. A. BROWN: The Min ister is talking about new types of programs. What new types of programs? HON. M.

SMITH: I think th e computer assisted education programs are relatively new, but so is the way the colleges are packaging a lot of their programs now into small distinct modules that an individual can tackle at their own rate, and they can build up their missing skills. it's a much more flexible offering than used to be the case out of the community colleges. MR. A.

BROWN: I un derstand that somebody who is sentenced to jail for a period of two years, which is the maximum sentence that can be given under the Manitoba correct ional institutions; if they receive a period longer than two years, then of course they're under federal care.

But I understand that somebody who receives a sentence for two years is more than likely going to be out in the community somewhere along the line, whether it's under probation or whether it's under a temporary absence, or whatever it is, is going to be out of the institutional care, and th erefore any rehabilitation program which we would want to carry on with this particular type of person is no longer there. Is that correct? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, it seemed to me I was following the member along quite happi ly, the division between two years less a day, and two years and on being on the federal side, and then also the fact that they, for good behaviour , do get out earlier than their total sentence. This is the practice throughout pretty well the entire correctional system. But then he jumped to the conclus ion that because the time stays were relatively short that there were no programs. I don't know where he was leading. All the programs that I have listed to date are programs that are in operation.

They're broken down into relatively small short units so that they are adaptable to the time stay. There are things like small appliance repair and electrician helper 1522

Monday, 7 July, 1986 experience, plumber's helper . There 's the local education committee at each institution and community college. And since many of the programs at a community college now are mad e up of a lot of small modules, in fact , they can often get started on covering some of those upgrading modules and then the special training while they're in the institution . In such a case, often it's the first modules cove red that are the most difficult but the most significant, because the person gets the feeling of confidence and some sense of constructive path to follow that offers some hope. MR. A.

BROWN: What I was getting at, Mr. Chairman , was that under the circumstances, even if they have been sentenced for a two-year period of time, they 're out in a very short period of time, that it 's almost impo ssible to create some kind of meaningful rehabilitation program .

And what I would like to see is that the rehabilitation program continue no matter whether this person is out on probation, whether they 're out on a temporary absence, or whatever the case may be, that the rehabilitation program continue so that we could go into a meaningful program and try to get these people into society where they can perform some kind of a function , where they are employable people . I would like to see that kind of program coming forward, and is the Minister doing anything about this? HON. M.

SMITH: I would remind the member that when one is sentenced to a period of time in an institution, it's because they have offended against the law and they're given a sentence which has some relationship to the offence. That sentence can be shortened by good behaviour in the institution . Now, I think our responsibility is to give them as constructive an experience as we can within the period of incarceration and try to set them on a path which is rehabilitative and offers hope .

I think all the civil rights people in the country would be down upon us with a ton of bricks if we presumed to have any control or authority over people once they had served their term. I think what we do is try to provide the best possible lia ison and access to programs in the community that offer hope, whether it's training or whether it's job experience . When people go out on T.A.' s and on probation , they go out on condition that they're usually involved in some work or job search, or training, or educational programs . I think we do the best we can with the time frame that we have them. MR. A.

BROWN: This is just it, under the time frame that we have. The time frame that we have is three months or a relatively short period of time . Do we have any statistics at all as to how successful our rehabilitation program is? How many of the inmates are employable after they leave Headingley? How many of them are back in Headingley after a short period of time? Do we carry this type of statistic? HON. M. SMITH: I think we shouldn't confuse our correctional institution with - I don't quite know what the member is getting at. We do have success.

Sometimes we have people who've never been able to read actually master reading skills. People acquire driving licenc es, which gives them more oppor tunity for employment. They get an initial experience in the trade that does influence many of them when they go back on th e outside. But to suggest that when they 're serving tim e for an offence against society , that suddenly the correctional institution should tak e over their entire lives and not release them until they 're fully integrated, I think , is foolish .

I think all the job creation and healthy economic things that we're doing for the population at large in trying to prov ide access for people who have particular disadvantages meshes with this type of program that we have for the inmates, where we try to get them as ready as possib le. But I don't think we can, in a sense, run their entire lives becau se they 've been sentenc ed to a short stay in a provin cial institution . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield . Do you want to defer it to the Member for Brando n West? MR. G. ROCH: I'm sorry , I just thought he had his hand up further .

It doesn't matter to me. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, you had your hand up earlier. Okay, the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . Can the Minister tell the committee what is the average length of stay in Manitoba? HON. M. SMITH: Approximately three months. MR. J. McCRAE: Can the Minister tell us, over the last couple of years , the numbers of prisoners coming into our institutions in Manitoba, for instance, in the fiscal year previous to the one we 're dealing with now , and the one before that?

Without demanding specifics here , I'm just asking the Minister , is the number rising or declining? HON. M. SMITH: Our average daily popul ation in the nine institutional settings in the province is 811 . It's staying approximately the same. Last year it was 814; the year before , 802; the year before th at, 774. The experience in other provinces is that they 've been having increases of about 4 percent per year. There are some tougher laws that are being enforced. For example, Saskatchewan, which has roughly the same population as Manitoba, their institutional population is averaging 1,100.

Now , we maintain that we've been able to level off by virtue of good manag ement , fine options, and so on, in trying to provide as many alternatives to incarceration as we reponsibly can . MR. J. McCRAE: Included in those numbers would be inmates who would be there for a matter of just a handful of days , I take it, for non-payment of fines, or even highway traffic fines , I suppose? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. 1523 MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, how many staff years are we talking about when we look at 5.(b)(1), Salaries? I see a considerable increase and I wonder how many

Monday, 7 July, 1986 people work in these institutions and how many are suppo sed to work under this budget. How many more will there be this year? HON. M. SMITH: We had 480 last year; we have 490 this year. I referred to the 10 new people earlier; I was getting it a little bit confused with the administrative line. The 10 new people are in this area. Four of them are nu rses and six are to provide flexibility in arranging vacation time. MR. J. McCRAE: I'm sorry, I missed the last few words. HON. M. SMITH: Six of the 10 are there to give us flexibility in assigning vacation time and so on.

We do use some part time; we have some part time in addition. We try to get as good a mix as we can to provide for the normal fluctuations that occur during the year. MR. J. McCRAE: it's fair to say, then, the remainder of the increase in salary costs would be the inc rease in wages under the collective agreement? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. J. McCRAE: I see there's nothing recoverable from Canada under Adult Corrections. Prisoners in federal institutions, those institutions recover nothing from Manitoba either, I take it, so that it's strictly up to the judge where the prisoner goes. HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. J.

McCRAE: I don't understand, Mr. Chairman, the reduced budget for External Agencies and Ha lfway Houses. Perhaps the Minis ter can explain that. HON. M. SMITH: We weren't using the full amount of that budget. During the year Camp Renay (phonetic) was closed; again, there was federal money there but it was cut. And Grosvenor House closed; it was partially funded by the MCC, Mennonite Central Committee. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minis ter, getting back to a question I asked earl ier, break down a little bit for me the number of people working at the Brandon Correctional Institute and how many are proposed to be working this year? HON. M. SMITH: Just for clarification, were you wanting the breakdown year over year or the sub-breakdown of each year? There's 490 in 1986-87 and there were 480 in 1985-86. MR. J. McCRAE: But I'm sp eak ing for Brandon lnsitution only. HON. M. SMITH: Sorry, that's what I didn't hear.

The number has not changed, 66.5: 3 management, 6 admin, 6 on programs, 1 nur se, 44 on securi ty, 2 on services, 4.5 on term. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, what has been the respons e of th e Minis ter's department to the un fortunate hostage taking incident that took place in Bran don? HON. M. SMITH: On Janu ary 8, 1986, as you know, a correctional officer was wounded and another held hostage by two in mates . After several hour s of negotiations, the officer taken hostage was released unharmed. The incident was contained to one part of the building and limited, for the most part, to the perpetrators.

They were su bsequently charged and received additional penitentiary time. Measures for the identification and handling of high­ risk inma tes have been strengthened as well as sear ching and other methods for the control of contraband. As well, the organizational structure has been reviewed and it's being revised to bring it in line with changing priorities and expec tations. We did and do want to compliment very highly the skill and stead in ess of the staff at the Brandon Correctional Institution for how they handled a sort of first-time incident. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, I join with the Min ister and compliment those people, too. But I guess the question is why were those prisoners there? As we now know, those prisoners were of the more dangerous, maximu m-security type, and is there nowhere else in Manitoba where they could have been held? HON. M. SMITH: There's always some risk involved in the correct ional process. These prisoners were on remand, and in the remand group we tend to get a much wider range of prisoner than in the ordina ry population.

We do have some remand decentralized at the various institutions thr oughout the province but, of course, our main facility is in Winnip eg at the Public Safety Building. MR. J. McCRAE: Will it be the policy in future then, when dangerous off enders and potentially dangerous offenders are identified, to keep them on remand at such places as Brandon Correctional Institutional which I think it was agreed at the time was not set up to handle prisoners like that? Will those prisoners in future be kept in Winnip eg where the facilities are able to handle that type of prisoner? HON. M.

SMITH: The policy has been to keep the prisoners adjacent to the court where they're being tried so, in a sense, that isn't our determination, that's the justice system's. What we have done, though, is reviewed all the procedures in Brandon to ensure that to the extent these things are manageable that they are able to give full securi ty. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, it may be the policy and the practice of the justice system, but the Minis ter did talk about measures being strengthened to deal with these types of prisoners.

I guess I should ask for the Min ister to be more specific and tell us just what specific measures have been taken so that an incident like this, the risk of such an incident happening in the future, would be significantly reduced. We know there's a risk in walking across the street, but when you're dealing with people like the kind we now know those 1524

Monday, 7 July, 1986 people to hav e been, I think the risk is sign ificantly greater and, there fore, the measures taken should therefore be signific antly more stringent. HON. M. SMITH: Where there is a record and an ability to predict, then extra measu res will be taken but, by the nature of human behavio ur, we can't always predict on the basis of past behaviour or the knowledge we hav e of it that someone is going to behave in this man ner. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, I hesitate to argue with the Min ister, but these prisoners were very well­ known to the system and the risk was very well-known, and that ans wer really does not address the qu estion as it was put. The risk was very sign ificant and, as I recall, th ere was some criticism sinc e. Th ose correct ional officers underwent far more than they ever should have been expected to undergo and they were faced with more severe risk than what the Min ister is talking about. HON. M. SMITH: lt's our opinion that a classification error of judgment was made in this case.

The officer in charge also didn't have full information about the prisoner, so these are the matters that we've looked into to ensure that there are procedures that are tightened up. I guess, again, that particular institution just hasn't had incidents of this sort before. We've done everything we can to ensure that such an incident wouldn't recur. MR. J. McCRAE: Is the Min ister satisfied that the staff­ to-inma te ratio at the Brandon facility is sufficient for the coming year? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I notice that the budget for adult correction has gone up about 900,000, the bulk of that for salaries. As an example, what is the cost of opera ting Headingley? HON. M. SMITH: '86 -87, 5,973, 10 0; over'85-86, 5,587 ,800.00. MR. G. ROCH: That would give us an average cost of what per prisoner? MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, could you repeat that? The average cost per prisoner? MR. G. ROCH: Yes, at Headingley. HON. M. SMITH: For'85-86, they averaged at $64.25. The average overall in the whole system was 63.39, per day, per priso ner. MR. G. ROCH: 63.39 was for Manitoba as a whole? HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, and 64.25 for Headingley. The smaller ins titutions run a little higher because there are some economies of scale. MR. G. ROCH: Okay, to go into more specific areas, what does that 64.25 cover? Every thing? HON. M. SMITH: As is common with our institutional per diems, the Government Services Department looks after the rent and the maintenance, so this covers staff, food. MR. G. ROCH: Staff included? HON. M. SMITH: Food, staff and clo thing. Yes, food and clothing and staffing, progra mming, transportation. MR. G. ROCH: What department looks after rent and maintenance? HON. M.

SMITH: Government Services. MR. G. ROCH: So, if we had that cost in there, it would probably bring up the average cost of prisoners somewhat? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister is nodding yes. MR. G. ROCH: By a fair amount? HON. M. SMITH: We would guesstimate it at about $6, but it would be more appropriate for you to ask Government Services. MR. G. ROCH: Okay, as another specific. What woul d the kitchen cost be in Headingley? For example, the number of staff, total dollars allocated ann ually for meals? HON. M. SMITH: We don't have it broken down quite that way.

We have 18 service staff, but they would incl ude more than cook ing, and the inmates do some of the work in the kitchen. We do hav e the food costs for Headi ngley 656,000.00. Yes, that's for '86-87 budgeted 656,700; last year, it was 646,300.00. MR. G. ROCH: Pardon me, what was it last year? HON. M. SMITH: 646,300 for'85-86; and for '86-87, 656,700.00. That's the food bill. MR. G. ROCH: Would you happen to have that broken down as to the average cost per meal as far as the average cost for breakfasts, lunches, suppers? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, because we don't hav e all the staffing and overhead, we don't hav e it broken down according to functional budgeting. We could get that, but it would not be speedy. Yes, we are aware of those overall costs. MR. G. ROCH: I suppose if I want to comp are those costs with the total dollars allocated to Victims' Compensat ion, for example, I would have to ask that under the Attorney-General's Department? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, he would ha ve to ask the Attorney-General. 1525 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Monday, 7 July, 1986 MR. G. ROCH: Well, there are almost th ree different departments involved in here when it comes to Prisoner Services. That's all the questions I have at this time. MR. A. BROWN: I wonder if the Min ister could tell me what the capacity is of each Institution and how many in mates we have at the present time. In other words, are we filled up to cap acity at each one of our institutions, or what is the situation at the present time? HON. M. SMITH: Our actuals, again they fluct uate during the year.

We're running near capacity in the institutions: Brandon, 11 7; Dauphin, 41 -t hese are the actual averages for 1985-86 - Heading ley, 372; Portage, 34; The Pas, 71; Provincial Remand Centre, 112; Bannock Point Camp, 33; Egg Lake Camp, 31. MR. A. BROWN: What is the capacity of each of the se? We're running close to capacity . What is the rate of capacity of each one of these, for instance let's say, Headingley, Brandon, The Pas, Portage, Dauphin, the Remand? HON. M. SMITH: We're operating very close to our capacity . We have a goal for improvement.

The plans for the new Remand Centre is the major first step we plan to take to relieve the current num bers. MR. A. BROWN: My question then is: are we over capacity in some of these institutions, as has happened quite frequently in ti mes past, where we hav e considerable overcrowd ing? Are we overcrowd ing at the present time? HON. M. SMITH: We are beyond where we would like to be. We do have a building

schedule or replacement schedule, and we've been working very hard on the alternativ es - again to a certain extent - because the passing of laws that immediately produce increased popula tion sometimes leav es the correc tional institutions running to catch up. There's not, in a sense, a tight coordination between federal and provincial laws and the capacity of these institutions. MR. A. BROWN: Have we a breakdown of Native and non-Native inma tes in each one of th ese facilities? HON. M. SMITH: The average throughout the entire system runs around 40 percent Native. MR. A.

BROWN: If I remember correctly, the Women's Jail in Portage used to run considerably higher than that. Can the Minis ter give me the figures for Portage? HON. M. SMITH: it's run closer to 60 percent, but its total capacity is around - the num bers there are in the 30-35 range; so the impact of those num bers on the total system is small. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, that is considerable improvement. I visited Portage last year and, at that particular time, they were running 85 percent in there. If we're down to 60 percent, can the Min ister give me any particular reason why we would be down that much? HON. M.

SMITH: There is considerable fluctuation. lt could go above 85 percent and below 60 percent. We believe the single most important factor in the past year though has been the work of the Native people, especially a very energetic group of women at the Ma Mawi Centre in the Child and Family Service area. They've been addressing these problems with particular imagination and commitment. MR. A. BROWN: That was going to be my next question. What is the Min ister doing? Is she encouraging the Native community to look after some of their own lawbreakers?

She mentioned this particular program - and I forgot what the name was of the centre, Ma Mawi or whatever - that the y were looking after some of their perpetrators over there. Can the Minis ter give me a little bit more in formation about some of these programs, where Native communi ties are so-called looking after some of their own lawbreakers? HON. M. SMITH: The Ma Mawi group was one area where there is special support for Native women. All the alternative programs, the Commu nity Ju stice Committees are being particularly well promoted among the Native people, and well received by them.

In the DOTC area, we do have Native probation people as a bit of a pilot demonstration project. Native Plan are also very active at Heading ley. MR. A. BROWN: Is the Min ister work ing with the Native groups and encouraging them to go into programs, where they would be looking after more of their lawbreakers? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, our particular focus this year has been on the youth side, youth and probation. MR. A.

BROWN: The reason why we are releasing people so early out of jail - those who have a two­ year term - to me it seems to be absolutely ridiculous that these people should be out on whatever program they are under in thr ee months time. Is the main reason for this overcro wding? Do we have to release these persons in order for us to make room for new inmates? HON. M. SMITH: People are released only if it is determine d to be the wisest next step in their rehabilitation. One of the things you qui ckly learn about a prison population is that they often lack some of the skills of making it in the ordinary world.

Therefore, if you can give them some positive experience under tempor ary absence programs or probation, when they still have some sup port and some supervision, it makes for better transition. I did mention earlier various training education work programs that we try to link people into so that they at least have a somewhat better chance of int egrating when the y are out. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, to me, this is somewhat unacceptable. lt seems to me that if we're going to carry forward any reh abilitation program with any teeth in it whatsoever that we will have to be able to work with these people for more than a period of three months; and this doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be within the confines of Headingley or whatever institution they are in. But certai nly they have to be 1526

Monday, 7 July, 1986 under sup erv1s1on at all times so that we can start meaningful programs with them. If the reason is not overcro wding, then why are we not going forward with some more meaningful programs of rehabilitation than what we are? We are letting some of the se peopl e out all by thems elves to do their own thing. They can go out and paint somebody's barn or what ever.

Now this is fine; they're doing some thing which, at that particu lar time is needed, or they're mowing somebody's lawn or they're cutting somebody's hedge or they're picking up pieces of paper on the grounds of the Legislature or whatever, but surely this is not the way we want to rehabilitate these people which is going to bring them forward into some kind of form where they will be able to get meaningful employment within soci ety. HON. M. SMITH: The purpose of the correctional institution is not to remedy all the ills in society.

There are training programs, job crea tion, housing programs and so on that we're working on for the ordinary popul at ion. The pu rpose of having rehabi litative programs when people have broken the law and are, in a sense, putting in time, is to give them a leg up so that when they come out they're more likely to be able to tune into these other programs. In some cases, people have not done things like mowing lawns or painting or just experience the satisfaction of doing very simple things that are of benefit to the commun ity. Very often they have never been trusted to do anything and perform it well.

They do work under supervision until they can demonstrate some progress before they're let out on their own. lt's a gradua ted shift from living inside to living on the outside. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that there would be a very simple way we could determine whether the programs that we were running, whether the y were su ccessful or whether th ey were no t su ccessful, and that is mainl y by how many repeaters we have. What is the percentage of people finding their way back into the institutions after they have been th ere the first time and sup posedly have been reha bilita ted? HON. M.

SMITH: The corre ctional system, perhaps in the great futur e will be perfectly rehabilitative, but I submit that as a society we're still partly in the world of being punitive to people wh o've broken the law. We take away their freedom and incarcerate them and we often inca rcerate them in ways that perhaps you or I might have trouble retaining a positive outlook on the world if we spent time there. Given that tradition in our socie ty, we're doing our very best to treat the in mates as people who can learn, can become responsible and can spend their time constructiv ely.

Again, I think it's foolish to think that a correct ional system is going to remedy all the ills of society that lead to people breaking the law. We can do a particular set of things for the particular group of people that are inc arcerated, but there are many other programs needed in this society for people who lack job ski lls or work attitudes or even self-respect and self-confidence to go out and join the work world. I think, again, to expect the correct ional program to achieve all of those things is putting too great a load on it.

However, I think there's room for improvement and over time I think what we've been acc omplishing in the diversionary programs, in the educational programs and the community work programs has been very constructive. MR. A. BROWN: lt appears to me, Mr. Chairman, from the answer that the Min ister is giving me, that she has absolu tely no idea as to how successful the program is because she has no idea of how many repeaters we have, how many people find their way back into the system time and time again.

Are we not keep ing any statistics whatsoever so that we can determine the value of the programs which we have within the system so we can make adjustments if they are not wor king, or if they are wor king, fine, that we don't have to make adjustments? Do we not carry this type of information that is so simple and it is not taxing the system at all? With the computers that we have nowadays, this would be a matter so simple that it certai nly would not be any taxation whatsoever on the system. HON. M.

SMITH: Again, I think the type of information we want is whether a person who's incarcerated for a period of time without rehabilitation repeats more often than a person who' s been inc arcerated with rehabilitation. Again, I think our focus has been on to expand the rehabilitative programming and, in a sense, evaluate each perso n's progress whil e we have them in those programs, and th at is positive.

I don' t think th e recidivism rates - aga in, we don't have them to hand here - but there are many factors that enter into whether or not a person becomes a recidivist, other than whether or not they had rehabilitative programs. We can really onl y judge by how responsibl y they manage the tasks and the opportunities they're given while they're under the correctional system. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, it seems to me that in this particular area, if we're ever going to go for preventive medicine, a term which we like to use within the Department of Health, if we're ever going to go into prevent ion, if we're ever going to try to resolve some of th ese situations that these in mates find them selves in, and some of these are probably through faults of, not necessarily their own making. If you're illiterate and if you're hungr y and you don't have the kind of capability to get a job, then natur ally somewhere along the line you're going to be breaking the law.

I would like to get into sort of a different area at the present time because the main reason we have to release these people is, of course , because we have to make way for new inmates. There has been every indication that the Canadian Forces Base at Beause jour would be made available by the Federal Government in order for us to put up another correct ional facility at that par ticul ar point.

Certa inly if we were to do this, this would alleviate a lot of the strain that we have in our existing facilities, and the Minis ter would be able to come forward with rehabilitative programs which would be more meaningful. Hopefully, we would be able 1527 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Monday, 7 July, 1986 to achieve the type of rehabilitation program which is absolutely required in today's society . Can the Minister give me any idea as to what is happening with that par ticular project? HON. M. SMITH: Well, having committed an offence, maybe it would be more wise if society looked at it as a sickness and people got sent away for a cure. Unfortu nately , society hasn't either figured out what the complete cure is, nor have they chosen over the past years to look at breaking the law as a sickne ss. There's a punitiv e approach.

There are some probably naive beliefs that if people lose their freedom for awhile they'll straighten up and go out and go forth and follow the straight and narrow. There are often conditions that pre-exist that lead people to break the law, certainly poverty-related issues, in creasing un employment, demo graphic change, migration into the city, no suitable job skills, perhaps poor housing, disorganized family life, changing laws, changing attitudes to alcohol, a certain degree of racism and discrimination in this society .

Some people have had a very difficult time learning self-respect and personal responsibili ty. Now, the correctional institutions cannot, with any magic program, find the answer to all of society's ills. What they can do is put in place a selection of programs that seem to work best and be most relevant to the population they have. The member talks a lot about meaningful programs. 1 would dearly like to know, if he has the magic prescription, what it is. But I submit that many people who hav e worked in this field with great commitment over the years are still search ing for what the best mix is.

I think the types of things we're doing have been the ones that experts in the field have said won't hurt and might help and, in fact, we do get some considerable success with some of our inma tes. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, a lot of these terms are meaningless because we hav e no figures which tell us how successful our rehabilitation program is. I'm certain that in some instan ces we are successful; there is no doubt about that. I'm sure that we are. Yet, Mr. Chairman, I am certain that much, much more can be done than what we are doing.

There is no reason why somebody who is sentenced for two years should be let go of the system within a period of three months and no further contact being made with this person except that we keep an eye on them, and they have to report every once in a while and make sure that we know where they're at so that we can keep sort of an eye on them. Outside of that, we do very little about this situation. In order for us to get that opportunity , to go into something more meaningful, we will be needing extra space. Again, I ask the Min ister, what is she doing regarding the Canadian Forces Base at Beausejour? HON. M.

SMITH: Our top priority has been the new Remand Centre because that's where the most pressing problem is. We are in discussion on the potential use of that radar base but, again, the opportunity arose after all our priorties had been set. lt's much more expensive to operate that base. lt would offer some real advantages to the correctional system and we're prepared to absorb some of the cost, but we' ve been in ne gotiation with the Federal Government to see if they would pick up some of the additional cost because it's disrupting the priorities that we had set at a time when money is extremely difficult.

Back to the earlier point, I take it from the member that he doesn't feel we've reached the point where we can no longer improve in the correctional system and I would agree with him. But when he talks about there not being meaningf ul work opportuniti es, I say unequivocably that we have now more meaningful work opportunities available for inma tes and less idleness than there has ever been before. I have listed those programs for him, the brush clearing, reforestation, park maintenance, etc., building, small carpentr y, day care playgrounds, and so on.

There's a great deal of work that has been done and the expansion of the basic literacy, 17 computers for the basic literacy program, and linking into the programs that are available at the colleges, these are meaningful programs and these are in novations and expansions that have shown great growth in the last year or two. Again, I think the question of the base is still alive and if we see some federal dollars on the table, there's still some opportunity that that will proceed. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, my information tells me that this in the Mini ster's court, that the Federal Gov ernment commun icated with the Min ister and told them that they were open to any sort of suggestion which she was willing to make, and that to date there has not been a response and that the Min ister has not been negotiating with the Federal Go verment lt seems to me that the Federal Government would prefer to have a correctional institution there than having the Canadian Forces Base being put in as another Indian reservation, for the simple fact that some of the employment that the Town of Beausejour will be losing as a result of losing the Canadian Forces Base, that job opportunities would be created and we could provide job opportunities for many of those people who are going to be without jobs.

The in formation that I have is that the Federal Government is very anxious to proceed with this, but they're waiting for the Min ister to come up with some meaningful discussion and some mean in gful suggestions. My understanding is that the Federal Government is willing to listen to all proposals that the Minister has to make. HON. M. SMITH: With respect, I made a visit to Mr.

Epp in Ottawa, and I laid on the table for him the additional cost for us to run that base as a correct ional institution, $6.2 million of extra money; over $3 million to conv ert it, in capital expenditure, coming at a time when our Estimates were comp lete and when we have a great many competing priorities here. There is an extra $1. 6 million per year required to operate that base. Now, we told Mr. Epp precisely at that visit that if there was around $2 million on the table from the Federal Government, we were able to negotiate.

If there was no additional monies, regrettably, we would not be able to move. 1528 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Monday, 7 July, 1986 Now, we have had no in dication from him of any offer, other than saying that some of the Canadian Job Strategy training money could be diverted to retraining some of the Heading ley guards. No money and no answ ering of the basic questions we put. We spelled out as clearly as we could what our bottom line was. We tabled with him a specific listing of the extra cost and our negotiating position has not changed since that point. I think it's quite ina ccurate of the member to suggest that we haven't been above-board or specific in our negotiating stance. MR. A.

BROWN: Can the Minis ter give me the date of the time she was talking with the Honourable Mr. Epp? HON. M. SMITH: We tabled our list of the extra expenditures late April on a day trip that we made to Ottawa. We had a response that said the base could be turned over and there'd be the diversion of - well they'd say training mone y, a best effort to use some of the Canadian job strategy training mone y.

We telexed back on June 13 and again on the 26; one asking whether that training money was additional money coming to Manitoba because it's our total budgetary situation that is in question; or whether it was just a diversion of mone y that would come to Manitoba, anyway. We hav e not had an answer on that. We said that we had heard about the negotiations for the base to be used possi bly as an Indian reserve and we have never had any specific discussion or information on that proposal from his office other than what we have read in the newspa per.

We asked him if he would reconsider extra moni es for the capital adjustment again stating that the $2 million was our threshhold for talking. We have not to date had answers to those telexes. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I will be pursuing this matter further. My understa nding was from talking with the Feds that the ball was in the court of the Provincial Government at the present time and that some initiative would have to be taken by the Provincial Government in order to further talks regarding the Canadian Forces Base at Beau sejour. The Min ister has mentioned the new Remand Centre a number of times.

Is the new Remand Centre, the building of which was announced last year, is that in th is year's budget? HON. M. SMITH: Yo ur understanding on the first issue is wrong because we had tabled our specific information and terms under which we could continue negotiation with Mr. Epp. On the second issue, we were completing the planning process in last year's and this year's budget and we will be fully ready to go next year. MR. A. BROWN: So we can expect construction of the new Remand Centre in 19 87? HON. M. SMITH: Decisions on capital expenses are made year-by-year.

We can comp lete the planning ph ase and it will go through the budgetary process. There is a location; there is an intention to hav e that 1529 building; the specific starting date will depend on this year's Estima tes review. MR. A. BROWN: I understand that there are some considerable renovations going on at Headingley at the present time; is that correct? If that is so, can the Minis ter tell me how much mone y they're intending on spending on renovations at Heading ley? HON. M. SMITH: There is ongoing repair and maintenance; and about $250,000 for fire and safety in the stairwell area.

There's been quite a program of painting and moving in mates around to secure a better classifica tion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Premier. HON. H. PAWLEY: Probably I could just assist for a moment ins ofar as the Honourable Memb er for Rhineland. This morning I had occasion to meet with Mr. Epp on this and a number of other matters. The end result of that was an agreement on the part of both Mr.

Epp and myself to charge officials with the responsibility of trying to see if we could arrive at an agreement; an indication by the Federal Government they would explore some transitional assistance in relationship to what the Min ister of Communi ty Services had indicated to be her desire. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I'm very pleased to hear this because it seems to me that we do have need for added space if we're going to go into meaningful, preventive services that I was talking about before.

I certainly wish the Min ister all the best of negotiations with the Federal Government so that we can proceed with that program because I believe this is something which is sorely needed in Manitoba. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I didn't catch the figure the Min ister was talking about as far as renovations are concerned at Heading ley. Would she mind repeating the figure? HON. M. SMITH: Again, this is a figure that shows up in the Government Services budget. We can get the exact one but it's either 250,000 or 350,000.00. it's in that neighbourhood. MR. A.

BROWN: Well it seems to me that facility is in dire need of considerable overhaul and whatever monies are being spent in updating that particular facility I wholeheartedly concur with. I would like to go to another area, Mr.

Chairman, that some while back we received a report of racial tensions resulting from the hiring of a coloured guard and that life had been extremely difficult for this particular person; that some of the other senior guards had been putting forward mock or fake situations where prisoners would be escaping and so on , and also dressing up as members of the Ku Klux Klan in order to make this person feel as un comfortable as possible. The Minis ter indicated that an internal study was being done and this was being hand led internally.

I wonder if the Min ister could tell me just exactly what happened as a result of this internal study; was anybody reprimanded?

Monday, 7 July, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: I do wish that the member would not try to get sensitive personnel issues discussed in detail in public; however , he has raised the issue. There was an allegation in the media. Now, we have many coloured guards at Heading ley. We had a thorough investigation of the alleged incident. There was found to be no racial basis for the allegation and in fact we did arrive at a solution. I have already said publicly that there was disciplinary action taken. I would prefer not to get into greater detail on personnel issues, other than general policy approaches. MR. A.

BROWN: I realize, Mr. Chairman, that this is a sensitive topic and it is a sensitive topic for this particular reason; that there is a lot of nepotism going on at Headingley that almost everybody certainly who is in a senior position at Headingley is related to somebody else. This, as far as I have been able to determine, certai nly was in this particular case and it is highly unlikely that any reprimand is going to be made in this particular case. That is the reason, Mr. Chairman, why I'm concerned ; outside of that I would not be concerned.

But because we do have this particular situation - I brought that particular situation to the attention of the Min ister a year ago - of who was related to who and it is absolutely shocking, the nepotism that is going on in Heading ley. For that simple reaso n, it is very difficult for the Sup erintendent to enforce any reprimands upon any of the guards at Heading ley. HON. M. SMITH: That is the most astonishing set of allegations that I have heard around this table. I challenge the member to su bstantiate those allegations. There is an established procedure for hiring and for personnel practice at Heading ley.

This particular case was investigated, the MGEA was satisfied, the member had other channels to follow if he was not satisfied, but I find that kind of allegation without substantiation intolerable and I challenge the member to substantiate that type of allegation. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I gave the Min ister that list a year ago, of the people that I had suspect. I wonder if the Min ister has done anything whatsoever about that particular situation. HON. M. SMITH: lt is our contention that the procedures for hiring and the personnel procedures at Headingley are following the guidelines we have set.

Now if there happen to be people who have quali fied through the normal procedu res for the employment, the fact they are related is not a key factor. We will double check and double check but again, I think the member is jumping to conclusions because there are allegations. I think that he owes it to come up with something more substantial than that in these types of personnel matters. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that the Min ister owes it to those guards who are not involved with this type of situation, who are out there doing a responsible job and whose images have been tarnished as a result of some of these episodes which have been happening over at Heading ley. So the Min ister owes it to her employees to resolve that situation and to make certain that this type of thing does not happen. HON. M. SMITH: The member is assu ming that an allegation made in the media has more accuracy than our investigation and our denial of that again.

I think that the member is showing a very peculiar attitude to the justice system in this count ry, assu ming that where there's an allegation there is guilt. Now, if the member has specific allegations he would like to make that we can look into we will, but I think for him to allege that because there are some people who may be related to others or that because there was an allegation of a racial incident that that means that there's nepotism and racial discrimination going on, I think is a great leap. I have told the member that we did have a thorough investigation.

The staff person if not satisfied did have other avenues that he could pursue through the Hu man Rights Commission, through th e Ombudsman. He claimed to be satisfied with the in vesti gation and the discussion and I think it's irresponsible of the member to assume that because there's a report of an allegation that it has more su bstanc e or validity th an a properly conduc ted investigation. MR. A. BROWN: I believe that this is exactly the essence of it, was there a properly conducted investiga tion. From what I un derstand there has just been an in-house investigation and this is my concern.

If the Ombudsman has been involved or if th ere has been any external investigation into the situation then I hope the Min ister is going to tell me so, because from what I understand it has only been an internal investigation with - we don't know whether there has been any ... MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could just interrupt at this point. I think the Min ister has responded to that on at least two occasions saying there was an internal investigation, that the person affected did have the opportunity to go to other places and did not take that opportun ity.

I really don't know if we want to get into a debate here about whether an internal investigation is adequate or whether it's not adequate. If the member wants to pursue that I think maybe one more time and let's move onto a more significant line of questioning. The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: With all due respect, Mr. Chairman, the Mi n ister ju st happened to mention th at the Ombudsman had been involved with this, and I wond er, has he been involved. If he has, then I would like to kn ow. HON. M.

SMITH: I did in fact say that the staff person had that option of going to the Ombudsman or the Human Rights Commission. In fact my staff have just informed me that the Ombudsman was called in and had all the information, and after looking at it cho se not to pursue it because th ere was not enough su bstance. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to take the Min ister back to another matter discussed a little while 1530

Monday, 7 July, 1986 ago. I don't think I heard an answer when the question was put about a recidivism rate here in Manitoba. I believe that kind of in formation should be very important when we' re trying to judge whethe r a Min ister 's Department of Commun ity Services, which spends $18 2 million of taxpayers' money and on Adult Correction spends $19 million, a million more than last year. Surely it is a reason able question to ask, with all these expenditu res going on, are we getting value for our mone y? Is our recidivism rate improving or is it not? If it's not then perhaps something else should be done.

The Minister told us at another point in the discussion this even ing about how many programs are available for people who are released from our system, our correct ional system, and we want to know whether they're working. HON. M. SMITH: I can see how one might think that having that kind of data would give quick ans wers. The fact is that we're dealing often with transient people. lt would have to be a national initiative that would follow people up for some extended perior of time.

I think it would be helpful to have some information of that sort so that we could test a lot of our procedures in the correct ional field. We don't keep that type of statistics for the reasons that I gave. Many of the people are transient and not readily traceable. 1t might be that in the fullness of time the justice statistics group in Ottawa, who've been doing quite a lot on relevant statistic gathering in the correc tional field would undertake such a stu dy, but it has not been a practice at the provincial level. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it's all very well to expect the Federal Min istry to gather and compile and keep statistics about federal institutions but really I don't think it's reaso nable to ask a Provincial Mini stry of Community Services to - or for this Mini stry to ask the Federal Government to keep statistics on provincial institutions.

I agree, maybe the Minis ter is correct that a recidivism rate might be seen by some as a quick ans wer or very quick assessment of the success of what we're doing in this province, but on the other hand , that information should be readily compileable and I think the taxpa yers of this province are entitled to know just how we're performing in this field. We have people in our prisons for an average, I believe, the Minis ter said earlier of thr ee months in our provincial correctional institutions.

I guess I should ask the Minis ter before I go on - the provincial system operates un der the Parole Act and th e federal mandatory supervision provisions. Am I correct in that? HON. M. SMITH: Again, the parole system works under the federal system. The Federal Jus tice Department does keep comp arative statistics on the different provincial systems as well as the federal, but the y ha ve not chosen to date to include recidivist stats. The only

interpretation we have is that they haven't found it one of the more useful stats to compile. I can also see how it would certainly be an interesting extra statistic to have, and it would give one type of measure. lt would not be the only measure though, because there are so many other factors. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, Mr. Chairman, we keep statistics on an awful lot of things in this province.

The Min ister 1531 of Employment Services and Economic Security spews statistics almo st daily, and one has to wonder what the value of them is, especially when they're prepared at public expense and they go to the trouble of telling us, as legislators, the difference in the record under a P.C. Government and under an NDP Government.

I think if the government deems it worthy to spend money to compile figures like that, then when an Opposition asks very reaso nably for figu res on recidivism in our province, so that we can properly judge the Estima tes of the Min ister of Commun ity Services and her department, I don't think it's asking for too much. A little while ago, the Minis ter indulged in a little bit of phil osophical discussion with the Member for Rhi neland about how we sho uldn't just look at Corrections as a punit ive matter - that's true, you don't look at these things in isolation.

But the Min ister forgot to mention - or neglected to mention - that there is also the protect ion of the public to be consi dered in these matters and also deterrents for that person involved or for others who would get invo lved in criminal activities. I have to go on record as saying that our mandatory release provisions in this country do not meet the expectations of the people of this count ry, in regard to their protection and deterrence of crime. When I talk to the Mini ster about recidivism, I'm not talking necessa rily about cold, hard statistics.

Surely, the man at the gate at our institutions in this provinc e has to be concerned when he sees the same old faces several times in as many years returning to our prisons. Now, we all know that those situations exist, and all I'm asking the Minis ter is: to what extent in this province? Is the Minis ter's program of $19 million for Adult Corrections - which is $1 million more than last year - wor king? Is this program working? This is one way; is there some other way the Min ister can tell us that her programs are working? HON. M. SMITH: We do kno w that we have a fairly high rate of recidivism.

We kno w th at it tells us something about the propensity of people to commit crime in Manitoba; for what mixture of reasons we can all speculate. Again, in order to have a fully developed recidivism set of statistics, one would have to keep federal and provincial stats, because some people move back and forth between the two systems. The phi losophy of our system is basically to protect society, to hold the individual who's committ ed the offence accou ntable, and to try to develop in that individual a sense of responsi bility to society.

But by the same token, an anti-social or anti -whatever property, anti-self attitude, has taken awhile to build up in an individual, a short stay in a provincial correctional institution, in and of itself, cannot provide all the answers. There are many other factors. What we do is what we consider the best we can in the time available. We can only obs erve the short-term impact on the inmates' behaviour , and their ability to work and to show responsibilit y. I think we do take public safety very much to heart.

Again, it's a principle in our society that one doesn't keep an offender longer than the term or the time off for good behaviour that is determined by the justice system. There's a need in this society for many other supportive programs and j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Monday, 7 July, 1986 preventive pr ograms to reduc e th e correc ti onal population. Again, I did cite - as one factor that we're showing some improvement - the ability to maintain a relatively low institutional population, but we would all be much happier if we could bring it much lower. Again, I think a lot of things tha t we're doing in commu nity development: day care, school ing, job training and so on; trying to get the economic resource for people on reserves and people who haven't perhaps had equal opportunity is part of the an swer . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, it would be very hard for anyone to disagree with what the Minis ter has been sa ying, that prevention is the key here. We're spending millions of dollars, and have been for years in this province on programs, and we're spending more now than ever before on programs. For example, we spend $1.6 million on Family Dispute Services. That, no doubt, would reduce the amount of famiLy violence which often - especially under the new rules - would land an offender in jail. We're spending more money for our correctional services. We're spending more mone y all the way through.

Yet, the Min ister tells us we have a fairly high rate of recidivism. For the Minis ter to be able to say that, she must have some figures and some facts on which she bases such a statement. I'm asking her point-blank: do those figures exist? HON. M. SMITH: We know we have about two-thirds the per capita population in the correctional system compa red to Saskatchewan. Again, there are no magic answers in the correc tional field to show value for dollars spent. I guess one again falls back on what we have tried to learn and practice about human nature; ideas and beliefs have changed over time.

We used to believe that, if you in ca rcerated a person in a so-called penitentiary, they would become penitent and I suppo se for the fear of God would go out and no more commit crime. But I think every society has had a different approach to the correctional process. Again, I would welcome constructive ideas and approaches from the Opposition. I think precis e measurement, if we could get closer to measuring the right things and having more evaluative statistics, we would all welcome it.

But in the current state of the art, I think the types of programs that we're doing and the types of practices still offer us the best probability of reform and trying to give people some skills and some self-respect, so the y have a better chance of making it on the outside. To a certain extent, a life of crime is an ind ication of failure in a lot of our other systems. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, any society's financ es can support the rehabilitation of offenders only so far.

I believe, with the present budgetary situa tion in Manitoba, we'd be asking Manitobans for a lot - to spend more than they are now on programs to help keep people out of jail. But Mr. Chairman, if those programs seem not to be working, and in deed are not working and producing the results that we are looking for, then something more fundamental is going to have to be examined. I wonder if the Minis ter has not, over the past two or three years, come to the realization that perhaps some thing in this system is not wo rking.

The Minis ter mentioned a few minutes ago about in former days that people were felt to be more penitent after they came out of their time in prison. Well I think in those days, maybe we didn't have mandatory supervision. I think conditions in our prisons and jails were very much different a decade or a generation or two generations ago. Perhaps the Min ister's right. Maybe people didn't really want to go back to those terrible places.

But as I un derstand it now, our prisons are better places in terms of the care that the inmates get, and they're not treated in such a brutal fashion as they were in years gone by. What we are engaged in here is definitely a discussion about maybe crimino logy and maybe about crime and punishment, Mr. Chairman, but really, I'm just signalling this and saying that we're spending our way into what? We're spending our way into a higher recidivism rate. I can only assume it is because the Minis ter seems to be saying tha t without giving us anything specific.

But I would like her to repeat what she said about the two-thirds per capita rate of Saskatchew an. Just what does that mean? HON. M. SMITH: Again, on the numbers, we, with a similar population to Saskatchewan, have about BOO popu lation in correc tional in stitutions

whereas Sask atchewan is running at 1, 100. Again, I am hearing contradictory messages from the two members. One is saying we're spending too much and the other is saying we're not spending enough. lt is true that the money alone won't solve the problems. Particular types of programs can help, but there are many different reasons why people land up in the correctional institutions and the types of programs that are helpful probably have to be as varied too. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, I'm not sure that the Min ister should in terpret that I'm saying we're spending too much.

I think we should be spending a little smarter in these areas, and if we find that our spending is not bringing about the desired results then we are going to have to find out what's wrong. Maybe I should ask the Minis ter. Has any study been undertaken in her department in the last two or three years to tell us how much bang we're getting for the buck in terms of corrections? HON. M. SMITH: Again, I guess the question is how do you measure success?

We think that by levelling off the institutional population by trying to have as many divers ions from in carce ration as are workable, consistent with protecting society, and having as good re-entry programs as possible, that that's the way to build the odds in favour of more success. Again, every society - and we do get some breakdown on who the age of people - if we could remove young males from the popula tion or put them in cold storage from 15 -25, our correctional facilit ies would virtually close down.

What is it in the way we're dealing with our young men in these schools and in the workpla ce and the training opportun ities? I think that we do quit e a lot of that type of analysis. The plight of our Native Manitobans, many of whom have been brought up on impo verished reserves, that 1532

Monday, 7 July, 1986 don't have access to adequate resources or economic base and who migrate back and forth into the city and often find themselves in a different culture, often find their own traditional roots are cut away, these factors do influence the sort of core area - poor housing, unemployment - concentration of troubles in the city - alcoholism. There are many , many factors that go into an individual breaking the law and I think we do that type of analysis on those types of factors.

The fact that the recidivism rate per se has not been given the attention that the member suggests, I would like to certainly have those numb ers, but I don't know that they, in and of themselves, would be the crucial evaluative factor on the system. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, just one more comment, Mr. Chairman. The Mini ster reminds us that none of us have all the answers, and I'm the first to agree because I certai nly don't have all the answers, but I'm not in the position the Minister is either to seek out and find those ans wers.

I wond er, in view of a situation that does not appear to be getting better in this respect, if the Min ister has any intentions in the future to seek the advice of those who are better equipped to look into these matters. I guess what I'm saying is has the Min ister been doing these analyses in-house or has there been anyone brought in from, say, the Attorney-Ge neral's Department, for exam ple, who cou ld advise a criminolog ist who could give the government advice?

We all want very much to keep people from committing crimes and to keep them in jail for the shortest time possi ble, the shortest time that meets the ends of justice and so on. But, really, is the Mini ster intending to do anything about this particular situation in the future or do we carry on the way we have been? HON. M. SMITH: Well, the department accesses expertise from people who study crimin ology. We have an ongoing in terdepartmental committee with the Attorney-General's Department. Our people are in contact with other provinc es and with the federal people in the justice world.

They go off to various seminars and study sessions to try to share the best knowledge and programming available. Quite frank ly, I don't know any groups in North America who claim that they have the an swer.

I think most of us intuitively know that the more we can do on the employment side and the integra tion , or at least the acceptance of groups who may be different or who have had some disadvantage, the more we can deal with drug and alcohol, the more we can see that there is not undue poverty or deprivation, that these things all help, the more appropria te education we can offer the groups that find themselv es offe nding. We often end up in a correct ional system with the so-called losers. Now, what is it in our society that leads to some people seeing themselves as losers or, in fact, being losers?

How do we define community? I think a lot of the appr oaches we're taking in the day cares-communi ty services portfolio in other areas or to try to find the ways to provide community supp orts and healthy community netwo rking so that fewer people either become offenders or isolates by their own or by being pushed out. I would be very int erested to hear if the member has particular interests or proposals to make. I'd be more than happy to have him come along and visit some of the institutions and talk with people. Constructive input I would welcome; certainly , I seek it out myself. MR. J.

McCRAE: One very quick comment and then I'll stop, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate what the Min ister just said. I do have to take serious issue with one statement that I heard some time back and that was that some question that there might be a propensity among Manitobans moreso than in other pla ces to commit crime. I remind the Min ister this is "Friendly Manitoba" and I think only a criminologist would be in a position to make that observation, and I hope the Min ister is putting that as a possi bility and not a probabil ity. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)( 1) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: I would like to ask the Minis ter if we can't do something about the situation that we have at the present time where the mentally-ill, or mentally­ retarded persons, are placed within the mains tream of all the other in mates?

I have heard a lot of horror stories come out of Heading ley, how other in mates are taking advantage of either the mentally-ill or the mentally-retarded, and I'm certain that the Min ister has also heard these stories. it seems to me that this is most unfair, that these people should be placed in that particular situation where they are placed within the mains tream of all the other criminals when th ey, themselves, are there because of either mental illness or mental retardation. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I'm wondering if this might not be more appropriate for the member to consider under the Attorney-General, since it seems what the member is dealing with is more a problem of sentencing than a problem of inca rceration. What we're dealing with, as 5.(

b) states, is care and rehabilitation programs for inma tes of adult correctional centres. I think what the member is very correctly pointing out is a problem of who gets put in there. MR. A. BROWN: They're in Heading ley. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, they're in Headingley, not by the Department of Corrections, they're sentenced there. I'm wondering if it would not be more appropria te to consider that under the Criminal Justice Division of the Attorney-General's Estimates. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, since these people are in Headingley, and since the Min ister is in charge of the mental ly-retarded program, and since we have the Attorney-General here - we have both Min isters here - maybe we can have a bit of a discussion on this particular item. We may not have the Minis ter of Corrections present when we are discus sing the Attorney-General's area. With the permission of both Min isters, I would just like to briefly express what my concern is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General. 1533 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Monday, 7 July, 1986 HON. R. PENNER: Yes, if the distinguishe d Member for Rhineland would repeat the concern because I didn't hear it. Would you repeat the question and I'll try to deal with it if I can? MR. CHAIRMAN: If I can speedily sum up what the Member for Rhineland is requesting, his concern was regarding mentally-ill and mental ly-retarded prisoners being put in with the general population in prisons. My suggestion was that it is less a problem for Corrections than with the Honourable Attorney -General's Department. The Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: The Federal Minis ter of Justice, just before the House rose in Ottawa, tabled a brand new bill which is going to compl etely revise the appr oach to the mentally-ill in the criminal justice system. That, I think, was going to deal with the kind of problems that you have identified. I've had a quick look at it, it looks like a very good piece of legislation and it's going to deal with many of the problems that have plagued all of us concerned with the administration of criminal justice, of how do you deal with those who have clearly a diagnosable mental problem, or mental retardat ion.

I think this, in a sense, corrob orates what the distinguished chairperson of this committee suggested, that it may be more a front-end question than an inc arceration question at the moment. Yo u see, you have no great options. If a judge, under the system, sentences a person who might quite apparently have a problem but has not been ajudged not guilty by reason of insan ity, then there is no other choice but to put that person where the judge said that person is to go to be incarcerated, if that's the sentence. That's the problem. HON. M.

SMITH: If a person is clearly mentally retarded, they're often not judged guilty and we, in fact, do operate a group home near Steinbach called EI'Dad, wher e adult mentally -retarded people who have commit ted offences are dealt with. The more borderline mentally-retarded population, some of them do find their way into the institutions. What we have worked on is a better classification system so that they can be, if not comp letely segregated, given sufficient segregation to ensure their safety.

I think, in the past, that classification was not being carried through as well as it might and there were some difficulties, but we've been quite pleased with the improved classification of in mates, particularly at Heading ley, the largest institution. MR. A. BROWN: I came across an interesting case about a month ago and I did write some enquiries to the Min ister of Corrections on this particular case, and I have many more questions regarding this case.

Yet, however, something was brought to my attention which I was not aware of, and this person, who has been deemed to be mentally-ill, the courts decided that this person was unfit to stand trial. He was placed in Headingl ey by Lieutenant-Gove rnor-in-Council, and I didn't know that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council could do that kind of thing. He has never stood trial. There is no length of sentence for this particular person. As far as anybody knows, he could be in there for the rest of his life.

This seems to be a very unfair way of treating a person who is mentally ill and who, allegedly, has comm itted a crime, because we don't really know whether he commit ted one because he never did stand trial, so he was never proven to be guilty. His lawyer could not defend him in court because he was deemed to be unfit to even stand trial. So this is the type of case that really bothers me.

I will be asking for a further enquiry into this situation so that whichever Mini ster is responsible can find out the details of this particular case - I can probably rest a little easier once I know why things have happened in this particular way. HON. R. PENNER: Just for a moment. The member raises a very good question.

Indeed, one of the great weaknesses of the criminal justice system, as it deals with people with mental problems, is in the area of those found not fit to stand trial because there's been no determination, in fact, that they have commit ted the crime with which they were originally charged and they may stay for a lengthy period of time. lt's not, inciden tally, by order of the Lieutenant­ Governor-in-Council, although there's a role for the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council there. it's under a Lieutenant-Governor's Warrant.

One of the changes now that is being proposed is to remove that method of committal, that is, by Lieutenant-Governor's Warrant, and to strengthen the role of Boards of Review, which are provincially-appointed and include psychiatrists, and I think there is a much better method of dealing with these situation. I can't give you more details but the points raised are good ones and, I'm happy to say, are being dealt with at last by federal legislation. We'll have a close look at it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.( b) ( 1) -p ass; 4. (b )(2 )- pass; 4.(b)(3)- pass. 4.(

c) Correctional Yo uth Centres: (1) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: We have an item here of $6 million. Can the Min ister tell me whether there have been any signific ant changes in the Correctional Yo uth Centres? In other words, we have The Young Off enders Act, which created considerable havoc with the Correctional Youth Centres. We had a revised act coming out, as far as The Yo ung Offenders Act is concerned. Are things improving or do we still have the same kind of difficulties which we experienced last year? HON. M.

SMITH: We did pass out the little brochure on the Corrections Communit y that describes some of the things that we're doing with the youth programs. We did experience a very rapid increase in num bers under the YOA, but we now find it is starting to taper off. Again, The Young Offenders Act is a federal law and its

interpretation is su bject to the judges'

interpretations so there's been a fair bit of work being done throughout the system to try to improve the way that act is being applied. 1534 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Monday, 7 July, 1986 For example, we're working in the Thompson area to develop more accommodation for open custody use in Thomps on and in small communities outside of Thomps on. This would relieve the pressure on southern homes, and institution. Open custody support staff are currently training probation officers to utilize community resources sooner and to in itiate reviews sooner so that the youth can be ret urn ed to the commun ity under proba tion supervision as soon as possible. This can reduce custody time and particular time spent in institutions.

Open custody sup port staff are focusing increasingly on Directiv e No. 9, encourag ing staff to ma ke appropria te referrals and cooperative plans with child welfare agen cy. This focus is being brought to bear at the initial planning meeting on each open custody case. So the trends, the first year the YOA, in 19 84, the average daily num ber of youth in open custody was 15 at the youth centre and 21. 4 in the commun ity. A signif icant inc rease was experienced in 19 85. The average daily counts rose to 74.2 at the youth centre and 32.2 in the commun ity.

We've experienced a stabilization in the rate of commi ttals with regard to both the distribution of commit tals geographically and the actual monthly intake rate. The mean number of comm ittals per month is 15 .4 youths. We've also seen an in creased tendency toward shorter sentences. The mean length of committal is currently 6.8 months, as opposed to approxima tely 10 months one year ago. They can partially be explained - these trends - by the adjustment of the judicial system to the Manitoba model of open custody . The judges now know what the youths will face when sentenced to open custody . MR. A.

BROWN: How many of these children who are living at the youth centre would have received open custody since? HON. M. SMITH: The big shift has been that the average open custody for boys, 19 85 over'84, was 56 compa red to 9; and girls, 5 compa red to 2, but we are seeing some levelling off that this year. MR. A. BROWN: So we have less in there this year than we did have last year; that we have less open custody cases, or what is the Mini ster sayi ng? HON. M. SMITH: The level is still high in 1986, but it is levelling off. In other words, we're not continuing to experience that rapid incr ease. MR. A.

BROWN: Maybe I misun derstand the term "open custody" but why would we have a juvenile who has been sentenced, who ha s an open cu stody sentence, why would we place him in there in the first place? HON. M. SMITH: The choice is available to the judge of secure or open. Secure would be for more severe offences or the judge thought the young person was a danger to himself or others.

Open custody would be where there was an offence and therefore some time has to be put in, but it is felt that the best rehabilitation, I guess you could say, the best chance for it would be where the young persons were supervised in their daily life but not fully forbidden in volvement in the commun ity. Since when they leave custody you want th em to be able to mana ge themselves in the community at large. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is now 10 o'clock. What is your wish? Do you wish to continue? Is that agreed? (Agreed) The Member for Rhin eland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We did a pretty thorough revision of the Correct ional Youth Centres last year and I still remember a lot of the discussions that we had at that time, and un less any thing dif ferent or outstanding has happened over there which the Min ister would like to make me aware of, then I'd be prepared to pass this item, unless someone else has some questions on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c)( 1) -pass; 5.(c)(2)- pass. 5.(d) ( 1) Proba tion: Sala ries -the Memb er for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Probation is always an area I've always won dered why Probation was in this par ticu lar depar tment.

Why is tha t not under the Attorney­ General's Department, because it seems to me that the se people ought to be working much closer to the judiciary than to the people that we have available in this particular department. Can the Min ister give me an answer for that? HON. M. SMITH: I could call on the Min ister of Urban Affairs to give you an explanation. However, since I'm sitting in this chair . . .

Basical ly, the y are the link between the Corrections system, the judicial system and the community and they are very deeply invo lved prior to a young person going to court and afterwards for their reintegra tion. I think just which branch they are under is probably immaterial because their jobs are partly the judicial and partly the community support role. MR. A. BROWN: The Min ister said that this was the proper place in which to ask questions, under the Fine Option Program. We have heard many reports.

There have been reports in the paper about the Fine Option Program where the police are very upset with the way that the Fine Option Program is being handled; that people who opt for the Fine Option Program pay a fine rather than sit in jail. They are not honouring the commitment that the y had made. They have to be rearrested repeatedly and come before a judge and so on, and explain why the y didn't honour the Fine Option Program. Then they're let go again with the promise that they're going to honour the Fine Option Program, and yet they don't because they have to be arrested again in a little while.

There is no penalty for them not honouring the Fine Option Program. I wonder if the Min ister can explain why. Why is there no penalty if somebody does not honour the Fine Option Program? Why don't we put a stop to that right after the first time that the person has chosen to disregard the Fine Option Program? 1535

Monday, 7 July, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: I think the principle of the Fine Option has to be exp laine d . lt's th ere as an option to incarceration, and the in mate must make good on their Fine Option; otherwise, they revert to the court, and are punished in the other way. In fact, most of the Fine Option cases are very successfu l. There were 838,297 separate fines that were worked off - sorry, the equivalent of $838,297 fines that were worked off. Of that, the default days were 77,307. So that's for the year 19 85, much less than 10 percent.

So an over 90 percent success rate, I think, does indicate that the program is su ccessf ul. Almost 200,000 hours of work completed, and over 5,000 people taking part. MR. A. BROWN: Of the 77,307 worth of default days, what happens to them? From what I un derstand, they're just let go. There's no punishment for them defau lting. HON. M. SMITH: No, they go to jail. They're arrested and confined. MR. A. BROWN: Then where does this complaint come from from the Police Department where they are saying that they repeatedly have to bring these people into the courts? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, again, I think the member is picking up something he's read, and assuming that it's accurate or that it's complete information. We're in constant touch with the courts. lt's the same with the community service orders. They're not given as a soft touch. If people don't follow through, then they must take the stiffer punishment. lt was never meant to be a way of people escaping some acco untabil ity. To our knowledge, it's not being used that way.

Again, if the member felt any concern during the year on an issue like that, if he'd write us, we would un dertake to check up the particular issue and see if there's any su bstance to it. MR. A. BROWN: By far the largest item under Probation is Salaries. Can the Minis ter tell me how many SY's do we have under this $5 million appropriation? HON. M. SMITH: 16 4.5, one more than last year. MR. A. BROWN: Are all these persons actively involved with the Probation Services, other than possibly some secretaries? HON. M. SMITH: Yes.

There are 14 in the central directorate; ther e ar e seven in the Fine Option­ Commu nity Service Order Program; 83 in the Winnipeg district offices; and another 60.5 in the rural regional offices. MR. A. BROWN: Un der Item (d) (3), Program Development, I see that we have a fair incr ease in the expenditure over there this year. Can the Minister explain the expenditure under No. (d)(3), Program Development? HON. M. SMITH: The programs all stayed the same with the exception of the Open Custody Program.

Just to list the programs, Volunteer Support stayed at 50,000; that's working with Yo uth Justice Committees as honor ary probation officers. Purchase of service agreements with individuals and organizations for special need or high-risk offenders stayed at 72,900.00. The Open Custody account purcha se of service for residential and non-residential custody programs rose from 355,000 to 668, 1 00.00. The Adult Community Residential Program for placement of adult offenders in lieu of inca rceration went from 55,000 to 56,1 00.00.

The Fine Option-Community Service Order Programs, reimbursement to communi ty groups for expenses related to placement and supervision of offenders stayed at 245,000, and the DOTC, the agreement to deliver services on mem ber reserves, stayed at 70,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.( d)( 1) - pass; 5.(d) (2 )- pass; 5.(d)(3)- pass. Resolution 33: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $33,473,700 for Community Services, Corrections, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 87 -p ass. I would kindly request the staff and thank them, that they absent themselves.

We now return to Item 1. (a), Resolution 29, Minister's Sal ary. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I had asked the Min ister earlier, and she said she would be looking into it about the SCAN in the Ste. Rose area. There was something further in the Free Press about that issue. I'm wondering if the Min ister and possibly the Minis ter of Education might be getting together on some type of policy on how teachers are to deal with students in a way of touching them. lt's come out in the paper that the principal in Ste. Rose has indicated they're not to touch any students.

The phys ed teacher is coming to ask how they can do certain instructions, and to touch children. I can see where, after this incident, this is going to be perceived as a very serious problem to teachers. I wonder if the Minister would be considering any type of policy with regard to this issue. HON. M. SMITH: lt's an issue that's bound to come up in this area. The teachers, I know, have been conc erned about it, and are trying to differentiate between touching that is sugg estive or punitive over against touching that is encouraging or friendly.

Again, I think it's one of the interdisciplinary issues that we will be looking at further , because I think it would be very sad if we eliminated normal touching behaviour in the school setting. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I think that this is in the area I hope the Minis ter will take a serious look at, because you can see that this may be an area that is going to have some serious repercussions in the school system, especially at the younger ages where young children are being taught to watch for abuse and may not readily understand the difference. HON. M.

SMITH: I think the little play that goes around to the youngsters, "Feeling Yes, Feeling No," tries to 1536

Monday, 7 July, 1986 help the youngsters differentiate between hugging, or a pat, or a friendly embrace, or touching and touching which ma kes them feel uncomfortable. I don't think it's beyond the adult community to come up with some differentia tion. lt may take a little while and some public education but I think we'll all be the wiser after going through, trying to differentia te - it's the same issue that comes up in the pornography debates and so on; do you want to eliminate all reference to sexuality or do you want to eliminate exploitive, destructive, improper references? MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, the question I should ha ve asked before and didn't is: when the groups like SCAN or the police are questioning children at school, who do they have with them? HON. M. SMITH: I don't know the detailed procedure. I know it's an issue that has been getting attention from the multi-disciplina ry commi ttees; for example, the concern over frequency of questioning children has led to this current - I think it's either federal-provincial or a federally-funded program with the Attorney General's Department, where a video is taken of the first questioning of the youngs ter.

I don't think it's precisely the same in all ins tances, but it's probably one of th ose in terdiscipli na ry relationships that requires further refinement, so tha t teachers, social workers, medical people, police, each know what is expected of them and also so that the rights of all can be safe guarded. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, when they're dealing with an issue in the schools, are the child's parents called in to sit in on the inte rviews? HON. M.

SMITH: I don't know all the details of procedure, but my understanding of what would happen would be that in the initial ins tance, a disclosure probably would take place between a child and an adult. Now, that could be a teacher, guidance counsellor or school nurse. Certainly at that stage, a parent would not likely be there. There are procedures for who must be cont acted and the correct procedures but it would vary somewhat. I know parents must be notified. There are procedures in place there, but that's the type of refinement that we will look for help from the Review Committee. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, I wonder if the Minis ter would possi bly take as notice and let the commi ttee know what procedure is in pla ce now for questioning children and who exactly must be there when they're questioned? I'll just go a little bit furth er, in the case of Ste. Rose, there were a num ber of children - in the twenties I understand - who were inte rviewed. I would just like to know what type of procedure is used and just who was involved in the questi oning of th ese children, and If the parents were notified. HON. M. SMITH: I've asked for a report because I have read the newspaper report, too.

I do know that these commit tees are made up of professi onals; whether they're medical, social work, police or educational; and each of them has a type of ethic in terms of how they relate to youn gsters and what is acc eptable. Again, the fine tuning of these procedures is part of what we're about. The original guidelines for reporting certainly covered the initial relationship and type of ques tioning.

There are protocols that have been developed for different professionals, but the actual complexities of mana gement of the case, and just at what point parents are notified and by whom; we can only gain from further refinement. At some point, though, we are going to have to trust the profes sional judgment of the people in the field and that's why the training of all these different groups of professi onals, who are likely to run into these situations, is so crucial to the development of a provinc e-wide system. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I'm not intending to be at all critical of the system that's in place.

I just would like to know the procedures that are in place right now and what they're considering for the future, because I think it's important. When something like this happens, where you get headlines that a teacher has been cleared, then it brings a lot of questions into the community: is there going to be a backlash? We certainly don't want to run into that sort of thing, so I think it's good that the Minis ter make it clear to people what is happening so they don't start getting nervous over procedures that we know have to be in place. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I apologize to the Min ister for coming this late in her Estima tes to lay before her a couple of situations that distress me greatly. I must say, one of them I wasn't going to bring up but once the second one did come to me - as a matter of fact just yesterday - I thought that I would use maybe the last opportunity I had, in a sense. lt's is in the area again, Mr. Chairman, of child abus e. I'd like to relate two events; of course I won't use any names, but I think they are important to share with the Mini ster.

One of them took place in a small community where an individual who was a custodian of a school, who used to come early in the day to do his duties there, and doing that on a daily basis, one day had the misfortune that particular day of having a single mother drop her young daughter off at school - by the way, a young girl who just craved male attention as it was totally absent from her home - and this elderly gentleman who at the time was and still is, of course, a person very much highly respected within this particular commun ity, who was friendly to all children, was seen by somebody bending down, and just with an arm on her shoul der, bending down and talking to the girl who he knew and, of course, she knew him.

He was subs equently reported by the person, and I'll say the teacher, who then reported that information to the superintendent of the division who had to make a decision then whether or not to push it along to authorities or to let it drop. He chose to move it along to authorities and then this individual, this custod ian, was visited within two days by an RCMP officer and asked some questions. Natural ly, he was thu nderstruck. The information moved out into a small community pretty quickl y. Of 1537

Monday, 7 July, 1986 course, once the story was put together in greater detail from a num ber of sou rces, the person in question was comple tely exonerated, but to this day says he'll never really be able to be close to a young person again, and he has his own grandchildren. That was one disturbing case, but the one I heard about this weekend was even more disturbing where parents who hav e their daught er at a day care centre were told that there might be child abuse within their own home from a sibling, an older sibling.

When they, in the minds of some people at the day care centre, did not bring it up with the older sibling, the y were in due course visited also by an RCMP officer without any understan ding what may have occurred at the day care centre. Th ey, in fact, in going to see a lawyer to see what their rights were, were shortly after that visited by the Children's Aid Society who were wanting to remove these children from their home even though the parents had done no wrong and were under no charge or under no suspicion. The parents were, of course, terribly distraught.

And to the Min ister, I can't provide a whole host of detail; I mean I could, but I refuse to. The daughter was exam ined exhaustively by a profes sional psychiatrist and by a medical doctor. As a young girl, I kno w she went through great emotional stress. She lost virtually all of her hair. The professional psychiatrist claims the alleged event never did occur . Now my questions to the Min ister: What authority does the Minister have with respect to requesting a written apology where it can be shown that no abuse took place?

In this particular case, it's more than the parents that are looking for an apology; it's indeed the older sibling who, again, probably will have his or her name on the record. So I ask that question. Second ly, what actions can be taken by the aggrieved party? Can there be suits filed? Do all licensed day care operations have liability insurance to protect against a claim for defamation where, in fact, it can be proven tha t in nocent people have been taken through a living hell of sorts? Thirdly, what happens if regulations are not followed within the day care setting?

And I'm thinking specifically about reporting a misbehaviour to parents, the fact that a daily log might not be kept of activities, or sickness or unusual events surrounding the student, the withholding of a child's file from parents who are not being charged with any , or not being suspected, I should say, of any wrongdoing and, furthermore, not keeping information confidential. I un derstand that there is a proper procedure to follow, that one has to, if they find this occurring within a day care sett ing, have to follow proper procedures.

In other words, I believe they are to go to the director of child welfare, first, for the next course of action. I ask the Min ister, on behalf of my constituents, all these questions, and I suppose the main question I ask is: how does one have their children's name removed from the child abuse register? Mr. Chairman, I apologize for bringing this information forward at this time. I know it's probably been discussed in some detail previously but I just felt that it was incumbent that I do so. HON. M. SMITH: I appreciate that the member wasn't able to come before and that he has a very genuine concern.

The two cases he has outlined dramatize the really complex problem we're about here. As a society, we all were either ignorant about child abuse in the past or conspir ed to con ceal it. The family was consider ed to, in a sense, own the children and have complete authority over them. Now, as the evidence of child abuse and the expertise around identifying it has developed, we are all faced in each of our communitie s, whether it's Ste. Rose or whether it's your com muni ty or whether it's my community or a northern communit y, with these very problems.

A community that has been una ware in the past often and had no procedures, no well-understood procedures for reporting and dealing with child abuse, coupled with professionals who are now bound by our guidelines to report if they think there is any suspicion of abuse, until we put in the guidelines, which are now regulations, people who worked with chil dren often didn't detect or didn't report suspected abuse because the onus was on them in the court to prove the case or, in a sense, be liable.

What we did with the guidelines was, in a sense, introduce protection for those people because without the ability to report su spected cases, our ability to protect the chil dren was not there. Now, the next step, once the suspicion is reported, each professional has a re sponsibil ity. The skill with which each group is dealing with a youngster , I'm sure, varies widely.

There are training programs all over, but each community is going, in a sense, to have to share this proble m and help to develop the commun ity awareness, that without some procedure of checking into alleged cases we have no ability to protect the children. But also that all allegations are not proven and that there is a fair process whereby false allegations or, in some cases, allegations that can't be proven, still are dealt with in an orderly and respectful way.

In the first case, I think the fact that there was no - well I'm not sure whether I got the result of it - there was questioning but I don't know that I heard. Many of the cases are. There's another group of cases where there is not enough evidence to stand up in a court setting, but where there's still significant suspicion or fear. Some of those find their way onto the Registr y, but the ones where there's just no su bstantiation are not on any registry.

They may remain in the file of the Child and Family Services Agency for a period of time as a record of something that took place, but there's very limited access to that and it doesn't carry with it any implication of guilt. lt's just a record that's there and if there's never any recurrence, or the same allegations don't recur with substantiation - they are protection files and they're there - they can't really have any negative effect on anyone. With regard to the youngs ter in the day care, again, the day-care workers are required to report any sus pected abuse.

In this case, the RCMP officers, the police are involved because, if there is child abuse, it is a criminal offence. I can only guess at what the Child and Family Service Agency was thinking. Their obligation is to protect the child and they may have felt that - I don't kn ow - that the parents weren't cooperative, that a sibling was involved. The day care people do have liability insurance. The professionals who report allegations are protected and, 1538

Monday, 7 July, 1986 again, if there is any lack of ethical behaviour at the day care centre, if it were reported to us, we would look into it through the day care office. Again, we're building a system that is as finely tuned as we can humanly make it, but in these early stages of alerting communities to the reality of abuse and how best to deal with it, we're building a system that's as fair to all concerned and sensitive as we can. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a) - the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to belabour this and prevent us all from going home.

I just want to know, though, whether people that suspect and then report, and then have it shown to them that their suspicions were completely wrong, do they ever do the moral thing? Are they ever required to do the moral thing, and that is, to issue an apology to either the parents or to older people who understand the value of an apol ogy, such that they can, again, hold their head up high in the community; in a sense, be pardoned. HON. M. SMITH: I think it's a courtesy that could be considered.

Again, I don't buy the argument that a person is guilty until proven innocent, but it may be that some form of clearing the air is somet hing we can look at as one of the reconci ling aspects of a child­ abuse case. lt is an interesting proposal which I will consi der. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERV: Yes, I've got about three areas I'd like to question the Mini ster on. We've talked about it some time in the past, already. First of all, in the area of overcrowding. The Minis ter says there is no overcro wding at the MDC.

The one memo that I have here shows in South grove, in a male and female ward with a rated bed capacity of 11 7 people, the beds are set up for 16 0 and there's actually 13 4 in the residence which is 17 over the rated bed capacity. In Westgrove, another male and female rated bed capacity of 16 8, beds set up 188, number in residents, 185. Again, 17 over the rated capacity . There's been quite a bit of concern. The management official at the MDC, who spoke on the condition his name wouldn't be used, said overcrowding is harmful to patients and creating a morale problem amongst the staff.

I think it's very, very common that this . . . Neil Upham, the Administrator, admitted there was overcrowding, but it was tempo rary , noting Community Services plan to reduce the number by 200, and then by the fall of '87, some stabil ization would take place. Mr. Chairman, that's over a year from now. These are facts that there is overcrowding beyond the capacity and the standards set. How can the Minis ter tell us there is no overcrowd ing when the facts say there is? HON. M. SMITH: There are just slightly over 700 people at MDC in the sp ace that was formerly occupied by 1, 100.

What we have in place are minimum standards and I've been assured that at no time have we gone below the minimum standard of square footage. We also have an optimum standard that we are aiming at and should have fully in place by next year. So all 1539 I can say to the member is that what's he's calling the rated capacity must be the goal, rather than the minimum standard. We did check into those figures and I am assured that they have not gone below the minimum squ are footage standard. MR. E.

CONNERV: Would the Minis ter be prepared to have an independent body check the facilities out to assure people that there is, in fact, not overcrowding at the centre? HON. M. SMITH: I will have another review of that situation, but I've had no reason to doubt the accura cy of the· information given me by my staff. MR. E. CONNERY: Mr. Chairman, when we talked about the equipment on hand, when there was, for Northgro ve, of fire safety equip ment, the Min ister said in the House there was some pla stic pipe where in effect there was a full system of fire protection, fire smoke detectors and everything else.

So all this internal stuff doesn 't sati sfy me when memos keep on coming out, going to the Administrator. that there are problems. Wha t I'm saying is why is she reluctant to let an independent body go in there and survey it, and if she is right, then we'll ack nowledge it is right. But when you go this route, you give us the feeling that there's a cover-up going on. If there's no cover-up, throw it open and then we'll all be much happ ier. HON. M. SMITH: I think the member takes his memos out of context. I've checked into each one that has surfaced and have got the explanation.

I've given the explanation on the fire safety , where bulk materials were purch ased several years ago, when the y expected to change the whole institution. The decision has since been made to demolish one of the large buildings and, in fact, the materials that were in stock were only a very small portion of the costs. The major cost was the replacement of the door frames in the buildings, so I think that is off to one side. Again, I don't know quite what the member is wanting. I have asked for a thorough analysis of the figures he's given me, and I've given the explanation of the square footage. MR. E.

CONNERY: Well, I guess I have to say, Mr. Chairman. I'm not confident in the information that I'm getting. The Minis ter has been prepared for the last five years to leave the residents of Northgr ove in jeopardy because there was no work done. This is an awful long time to have people at jeopardy. it's been since 19 79 th at the equ ipment has been th ere, acknowledging that our party was in for two years. But we've had those patients in jeopardy for a very long period of time.

So what the Min ister is really saying to me is that she is not prepared to let an independent group go, which can be the local fire chief and someone else, two or three people, to go in there and measure. She obviously is reluctant to have outside people go in and verify that ther e isn't overcro wding. HON. M. SMITH: We have the Fire Comm issioner as an outside person. He works with Commu nity Services

Monday, 7 July, 1986 and with us to set the standards and review. I've followed up each of the requests that the member has set Again, I am not adverse to a visit and a double-check on all the figures that I've quoted during these Estimates. I intend to go out and make that type of review and double-check myself. Again, if the member would like to accompany me, he's welcome. MR. E. CONNERV: Now, in one of the articles, Mr. Thorim bert said his decision to allow the centre to shirk the work - which is the fire safety order - and save about 2 million, might have been altered if he had known about the memo.

Has the fire chief been kept in the dark on the memos that have been passing back and forth? I'm assuming that the reporter who talked to Mr. Thorimbert is accurate in the reporting. Has he had a copy of every memo that's taken place on the fire safety? HON. M. SMITH: Our information is that he has. Again if th e mem ber is work ing from phone calls and questioning, I have asked that this situation be reviewed by my department and the Fire Commissioner to ensure that the int erpretation I have is correct. Again, the Go vern ment Services people work with the Fire Commissioner , and set a

schedule for fire and safety upgrade. We've certai nly been engaged in a steady process of fire and safety upgrade. The whole decision to vacate North grove within a period of time, accompanied by short-term fire and safety provisions, was ap proved by the Fire Commissione r. MR. E. CONNERV: I know in my conversations with Mr. Thorimbert, I had the feeling that he was not aware of all the memos that had been passed back and forth. The Portage Fire Chief, Mr.

MacDonald, and this is a quote: "We need an unbiased look at what's happening there." Now these are outside people who hav e a concern, who are not part of the government, not part of the staff; but who is the fire chief of Portage la Prairie, and he's got a concern that nothing has been done, so how do you account for that? HON. M. SMITH: I will undertake once again to review his concerns. I have the fire orders all the way back from 1974, and they are over 90 percent complete now. We enquir ed into the nature of an order, and the Fire Commissioner puts it out as a

schedule for upgrading. He doesn't put it out as an order requiring immediate compliance. We have been proceed ing with all those orders. When the option of closing Northgrove or proceed ing with very expensive fire upgrading was raised, we also talked about the interim measures to ensure safety. Again, I'm prepared to go over the provisions with him that are there and to tour the place and to do what I can to satis fy him, but agai n, I have answered in as straight forward a manner as I can all the questions he's put to me, and I've checked into every issue that he has raised.

I find that often a memo is raised out of context. lt's a memo for which he doesn't have the answer or the next set of things that have been undertaken, so I find them incom plete. Now he can maintain that they are accur ate and all the other information I bring forward is inaccurate, but I've satisfied myself that I have got the full picture. But I'm quite prepared to go and have another go-round on it, just to make doubly sure, because I think it's correct that we shouldn't take fire safety for granted. MR. E.

CONNERY: Well, the Portage Fire Chief said his suggestions to the centre have been ignored, despite a 19 77 fire that killed eight patients; so he is saying that his recommendations aren 't being followed. One other area on the Welcome Home, we have supplied the Mini ster with names of people who say they have been threatened.

We see on the Peter Warren Show, two mornings in a row - I didn't hear the show myself, but other people reported that there were many people saying, yes, they were thr eatened or bullied or pushed or they didn't want their kin to be going into the communit y, and there was pressure being put on. In the case of Norina Robson, in terviews said that an employee of Associated Community Living, which was Norina Robson, as one who made threats by reminding parents of the overriding power of the public trustee.

Natural ly, she denied the charges, but I talked to a woman who, to me personally, said yes, those allegations and also the standard of living at the MDC would not be maintained. Is this the type of person that the Minister wants to have on a committee of four who are reviewing the advisability of residents going into the community? HON. M. SMITH: Again, the names that the member gave me, we've checked into, and we have different information than he has.

I've asked again for any names of people where there is alleged coercion and I would look into it, because I've specifically asked that the program not apply coercion. I can understand people who have been used to thinking of the institution as the only option being taken aback at the first suggestion. I dare say that some of the workers are wanting people to look closely before they make a determination and I think that's fair. Howev er, if anyone is being a little overzealous in that, I would certai nly like to know, because it's the furthest from the appr oach we would like.

We'd like parents to have a chance to see what goes on in the commun ity, listen to the different options, listen to the people who know their young person or their relative discuss their capability and their needs. We've been going slowly because we don't wish to have that kind of bullying. Again, I challenge the member to not make vague allegations, but to be specific and we will follow them through. He's mentioned one person, said she denies an allegation and then tried to suggest she was an improper person to sit on a committee.

We have asked the organization to name a person to sit on the commi ttee and we respect their processes for selecting someone who represents their in terests on th e comm ittee, as we'v e asked the other provincial organizations interested in this field to name their representatives. MR. E. CONNERY: The Min ister is the final person responsible and if a group names somebody who is maybe not conducting herself appr opria tely, is she then saying that she will not take action to make a change? 1540

Monday, 7 July, 1986 You know, the Min ister keeps on sayi ng give us some names. We've given names. lt's come through the newspapers time after time. lt's on radio time after time. These things just don't happen by accident. There are facts. We know very well that people with a retarded child or relative are not prone to come forward and give their names and be identified.

They're concerned, natural ly, with the stigma - there still is that stigma there - but also they're concerned that maybe their off spring will be not given the favo urable treatment or maybe there'll be some pressure put on, so there is a reluctance. I think the Mini ster has to now quit saying give us names and give us some facts. There's enough facts being put forward that there is a problem there. The Minis ter is just refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem.

All the way through in this whole commit tee, I just can't believe that running around the mulberry bush, evading a direct ans wer; I would say the Min ister is a wealth of no information. Time after