Manitoba Hansard — 6 December 2004 (Sitting 10, 38th Legislature, 3rd Session)

38-3-10

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVI No. 10 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, December 6, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

385 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 6, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I rise this afternoon on a matter of privilege. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member, on a matter of privilege. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, I rise today on a matter of privilege. I understand there are two conditions that must be met. Number one condition is that it must have been raised at the first opportunity and seeing as the event took place this morning, I believe that this would have been the first opportunity.

The second condition that had to be met was that there was a prima facie case that a member's privilege had been breached, and I would refer, Mr. Speaker, to page 59 of Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba , in Appendices, under Matter of Privilege, to the last sentence, "Libels upon Members and aspersions upon them in relation to Parliament," and this is more to the case, "and interference of any kind with their official duties are bre aches of the privileges of the Members." Mr.

Speaker, on this morning's Order Paper, there is listed No. 10, The Pension Benefits Amendment Act, a piece of legislation that is on the Order Paper but has not been introduced to this Chamber and to the members of this Chamber. This morning there was a briefing held on Bill 10 before it was introduced into the House. I would like to table for you a copy of not just a news release which says, "Proposed pension legislation overhauled" and goes on to speak about it, and also it has a set of bill details called a backgrounder, a two-page listing of what the legislation is about and what it is supposed to do. Mr.

Speaker, it is my belief, as one member, that this is an attack on the traditions of the legislative process. Legislation, by tradition, by convention, is introduced into the Legislative Chamber first before it is made public. There is another tradition of a briefing by the government to official critics on proposed legislation which is usually done by spreadsheet as well as the bill, and that is usually done after legislation is introduced. No such briefing was offered to the opposition.

There was no mention made that this legislation was going to be introduced. * (13:35) Yet, this morning a briefing was held by the government to the media, of which I have already released copies to you. The concern is that the Chamber, the 57 members in this House, have all been by-passed and that we had no prior knowledge, yet individuals outside of this Chamber have full knowledge. In fact, I had two media requests as the official critic to ask my thoughts on the legislation, legislation that de facto does not exist because it has not been introduced into this House.

A couple of days ago last week, we debated the issue of the attack on democracy and its institutions in the Ukraine. Mr. Speaker, if we continue down this path, and we have seen this government do it on numerous occasions, we will see that within the Ukraine someday there will be debate about the attacks by the Doer gov ernment on democracy in Manitoba and its institutions. This is a grave and serious matter. We have seen it occur in other forms where legislation is introduced and then it is hollow legislation and everything else is by regulation.

This is even more to the point because it really does attack what we do here as members. We are legislators. We are here to debate legislation, and the debate is not supposed to begin first in the public and then we just be referenced as a footnote. This Chamber and the 57 members here are supposed to see the legislation first, be briefed on it and be versed on it, and then it is supposed to be public. Mr.

Speaker, we have seen this government, and we know that there is a capability on that side when they want to ram through legislation, when they want to run legislation through, the briefings are all done, the legislation is introduced, then it is made public. It is all done in the proper fashion. We know this

386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 government can do that and has done that in the past. In this case, they have circumvented this Chamber and, I believe, that, as I read to you from the rules, and, again, page 59, that, and I take the sentence, ". . . and interference of any kind with their official duties are breaches of the privileges of the Members." It is a definite interfere nce of our official duties as members of the Legislative Assembly. As legislators, that legislation should have been tabled today and then press conferences should have been held.

The briefing should have been done after it was introduced in this House and not before. This was an attack on my privileges as one member, as the official opposition critic, and it was an attack on this Chamber and on every one of us as legislators, and it must not continue. It is bad precedent, and it goes against the traditions and conventions of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I ask to move, seconded by the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen), that this be referred to the Speaker, an d that Mr. Speaker report back to the House on this matter. Hon.

Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, first of all, the key issue in terms of the matter of privilege in this case is not whether this was raised at the first opportunity but whether or not it satisfies the definition of privilege. The member pointed to our rules, but, of course, members will know that Beauchesne is the text that very specifically points to the issue of parliamentary privilege, and I say it is an area that has resulted from hundreds of years of evolution of the parliamentary system outlined in Beauchesne Citations 24 and 25.

I point out to the member that if he had perhaps taken the time to read Beauchesne Citation 31(10), he would have noted that Beauchesne states very clearly that the question has been asked whether honourable members are entitled as part of their parliamentary privilege to receive such information ahead of the general public. I can find no precedent to justify this suggestion. * (13:40) This is an issue that has been raised in the House of Commons and also in this Legislature as well, the issue of information being made available to the media.

We often talk about the media as some sort of separate entity, but presumably, I think in this case, we all recognize the media pl ay a huge role in terms of communication to the public. So I would point to Citation 31(10) as indicating clearly this is not a matter of privilege. In doing so, I would suggest that the member might want to keep a little bit of perspective. I, for one, took great offence when the member talked about the developments in Ukraine, particularly coming after what we have been discussing in this House where we had a unanimous resolution in terms of democracy in Ukraine.

I point out, by the way, it is ironic that what the people of Ukraine are fighting against is vote-rigging, Mr. Speaker, vote- rigging. I will not get into what could be a partisan

interpretation of that, because I took by our vote last week that all 57 members of this Legislature support the struggle of Ukraine for freedom and democracy, and they understand what it means, Mr. Speaker, and it starts with fair elections. I take great offence when we have come to a point of agreement on something that we all should agree with, that that should be somehow put in the context of a matter of privilege on something that has been raised numerous times in this House, and in each and every case has been ruled not to be a matter of privilege. I would point out, Mr.

Speaker, that certainly it was not the intent of the minister or the government to show any disrespect to anyone. I point out that this government and the previous government, for example, at a time of the most, probably the most confidential of documents in terms of its public release, the budget, where briefings are routinely made available to the media prior to the actual release of the budget; embargoed press conferences, I believe, is the official term. So it is not as if this government and previous governments have not done things of this nature. Mr.

Speaker, in this particular case, I can indicate again, attaching what should probably be the greatest test of what we do in this Legislature, a bit of a sense of perspective, that certainly there was no intent by this minister to do anything other than in this particular case, to provide a detailed briefing on what is a very complex piece of legislation. I would suggest it is not a matter of privilege. We repeatedly have had announcements made not by just this

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 387 government but by the previous government that were not made first in this House about legislation. I can think of major bills, Mr. Speaker, that were not first released in this House. It has been fairly standard practice, and I would suggest that if members take great offence, we can certainly review whether providing this information by embargo to press conferences should be continued. It really was done, and this again should be the real test here. This was not some great affront to democracy.

It was a fact that we recognize this is an important item of legislation, and it is important when we are sharing this with the public, who I believe also have a certain privilege to the right to get full information that we take the time to make sure that members of the media have the opportunity to have a technical briefing on a very complex item of legislation. Mr. Speaker, this is not a matter of privilege.

I would ask when you rule that the member may also wish to withdraw his comments about comparing this to Ukraine, because that does a disservice to the people of Ukraine who at this moment are fighting for democracy and freedom. Free elections, we should all be supporting that rather than turning it to cheap political advantage in this House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I think I have heard sufficient argument. If the honourable member has new information, I will hear him. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, I think on new information, I know the minister, the Deputy House Leader, had a lot of hullabaloo that he wanted to put on the record and a lot of rhetoric. I think it is important that as you make your deliberations, you do it on the basis of what is democratic, what is right for this Legislature, and in fact, what is right for all Manitobans and all members of this Legislature, certainly not just us as opposition members but all members who serve the general public. I do not suspect in your deliberations, Mr.

Speaker, you will have difficulty in terms of the first instance, the first opportunity, but when you are making your deliberations about a prima facie case, in terms of whether or not a matter of privilege has been breached by us as individuals members, I think you will find that it is very , very difficult for us as individual members to do our jobs when we do not see that the government respects us, respects our democracy, respects us as individuals to go about the proper process to ensure that the legislation is brought here as a matter of first instance.

Certainly, I know we have young people in the gallery here visiting from schools, and they will no doubt be taught that this is the Chamber where legislation is made and where legislation is introduced. I do not suspect that upon their tour they will be told that the first time that legislation is introduced is to the media or through the spin doctors of the government. * (13:45) I think, Mr. Speaker, it is instructive for you, and I would ask you to take the opportunity when you are making your deliberations to look at the true motive because the Deputy House Leader referred to the true motives.

I think you will find that the true motives are because, in fact, this issue had been raised. This issue had been raised by our leader, by the member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray), and by the member for Springfield (Mr. Schule r), and I think, in fact, that the government was embarrassed. They were embarrassed that this issue had been brought forward first by the opposition, and they wanted to ensure that their spin doctors had got out and the rules did not really interfere with them. They did not really care about the rules and practice and disrespected us, I would say.

It was not respectful to us as individual members because they simply wanted to get their spin out. The Deputy House Leader talked about the fact that he does not believe in his

interpretation of Beauchesne that members have a right to information prior to the general public. I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that if that legislation is introduced here in the House, then all of us as members and the public would get it simultaneously by virtue of it being broadcast in the House. I would say that there is no right that exists for the media to have this information prior to members, that that is certainly an affront to democracy and that certainly will be disrespectful. I hesitate, Mr.

Speaker, because this is not the first time this week that I have had to rise in defence of a matter of privilege because something is seen as undemocratic and disrespectful by this government. I think there is a very disturbing pattern, and I think in your deliberations you need to seriously consider this in context, as the Deputy House Leader talks about

388 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 context. The context of this situation, this is not the first time this week. This is not the first time in a week that we have had to stand up and talk about an undemocratic situation. One, of course, was, and it is under deliberation still, of where they tried to shut out an individual member from the process of hiring an independent officer. So, in that context, we see that this is not an isolated case, but it is a pattern of disrespect. An Honourable Member: Arrogance. Mr.

Goertzen: A pattern of arrogance, a pattern of undemocratic behaviour, and it is a pattern that cannot stand in this Legislature. It is a pattern that does not serve Manitobans. I think the Premier (Mr. Doer) himself should call his own government to order and tell them to get it together. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I rise on this matter of privilege today because I think it is a very serious matter.

We have seen the conduct of this government over the last number of y ears and more recently over the last number of weeks, where the privileges of members of this Legislatur e are completely ignored. It may be subtle, but at times it is very overt. I rise on this matter because I do believe there is sometimes a courtesy that goes along with being a member of this Legislature that is extended to each other, and it is especially incumbent upon the government to ensure that at least a common courtesy of respect is given to the members of this Legislature. Mr.

Speaker, when the government wants to push through a piece of legislation in a hurry, it is not a very great effort on their part to come to members of the opposition and say we have this piece of legislation that we have to have passed in the next two days. I remember seeing that from the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) today who was then the Minister of Energy and Science who said we have to have the bill on ethanol passed within short order because there is this federal money that this Province can get, and if we can pass this bill in a hurry we can access those dollars. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we went along with that hoax and, to date, some year later, we have not seen any money from the federal government coming forward, because this government cannot get its act together in order to be able to move on some of these projects. Not that long ago, the government came to us again on Bill 4. They said we have to have Bill 4 because the City of Winnipeg requires it. Mr. Speaker, if you look at the Order Paper today, we have not even got the bill on the Order Paper for third reading today. This is the way the government operates.

The government knew that had a pension freedom bill on the Order Paper. We discussed this with the House leaders, and we said we will leave this bill off till the fall because the government wanted certain legislation passed in fall. We said, in the name of people and seniors who have a right to access their pension funds, we wanted to see Bill 212 dealt with in the fall sitting, which the government agreed to. * (13:50) Now, Mr.

Speaker, if they have a piece of legislation that will complement Bill 212, then I would think they would have wanted to share that with the opposition, as they should in the House here, and then deal with the legislation in an up-front manner, but this is all about publicity on their part. This is all about wanting to take credit on their part, because if the Premier (Mr. Doer) really had a genuine interest in making sure that the right thing was done to people who have pension plans, he would have approached the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Murray) and said look, we have a bill that we would like to present to complement your bill or to replace your bill, and then some accommodation could have been made. Instead the media are coming to the critic who is responsible for this area and are saying what is your response to the proposed legislation by the government. Well, there is no legislation. It has not been tabled in the House yet. To think that this is not a breach of members' privileges is insane. Now, the member from Thompson can stand up, the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton), in his place and huff and puff all he likes.

The fact of the matter is that Manitobans would expect that there be some respect given to this Legislature and that we do not set out on a course that is autocratic in nature, if you like, that simply di srespects any processes of the Legislature and simply says that we are the

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 389 government and we will do as we choose. That is arrogance, Mr. Speaker. That is disrespect. Mr. Speaker, what are they afraid of in bringing the legislation to the Chamber first, introducing it? Then go ahead and have your news conference. Then, when the media come to the critic and they ask for a reaction, there is some basis to react on, Mr. Speaker, rather than simply saying well, I am sorry, I cannot respond to something that has not been tabled in the House yet. This is not just an action of government.

This is not a budget speech where it is detailed, where the media are given information on an embargoed basis. This is a bill. This is legislation. This is law, and if we cannot afford each other the respect and the courtesy of bringing it forward to the Chamber in an up front way, then what is this government really all about? So, for that reason, Mr. Speaker, I agree with the member who has brought this matter forward. I would request that you would consider this matter very seriously and bring it back with a ruling to this Chamber. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Before recognizing the honourable Member for Inkster, I hope with new information, I just want to remind all honourable members that this is not an opportunity for debate. It should relate to whether there is a prima facie case. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I think that it is a valid concern that has been brought to your attention this afternoon. We share in that concern.

If we take a look in terms of what has actually taken place, Bill 10, known as The Pension Benefits Amendment Act, has not been circulated inside this Chamber, meaning that no MLA inside this Chamber actually has a copy of Bill 10. Yet, we realize that members of the media and whoever else, we do not know, has already been advised of the bill. We do not know, in terms of its actual circulation, who else might have been provided this piece of legislation. Mr. Speaker, I suspect the government is doing it in the sense that they feel that this is a bill that they are going to be introducing.

There could be an emergency debate immediately following Question Period. There might not be an opportunity for even this government to stand up and request leave in order to have the bill circulated within this Chamber. I think that there is an overriding concern that we have had in the Manitoba Liberal Party in terms of just the general lack of respect for democratic process from this government. This seems, on the surface, to be another example of that. I think what we need, Mr. Speaker, from y our office is very clear indication that it should not just be a yes or no in terms of a matter of privilege.

I think we need a very clear indication. Let us not forget our budget. If the minister speaks of the budget in advance, it could cause the minister to be forced to resign. A budget will ultimately become a law. * (13:55) If the government can do it on Bill 10, can they do it on a budgetary piece of legislation also, Mr. Speaker? We have got to be concerned with the liberty this government is taking in terms of running the operations of this Legislative Chamber. That is why we do think that there is merit for this particular matter of privilege.

We look forward to very clear indication coming from your office as to clearing up this matter once and for all. We do not know if there was a moratorium, or I shou ld say, an embargo put on at that press conference. We do not know what the time frames were. I do find it very disturbing that the government would take this Legislative Chamber for granted. I trust and hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will be provided the adequate time to be able to come back and protect the rights of all members of this Chamber on this issue. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious concern.

I am going to take this matter under advisement to consult the authorities, and I will return to the House with a ruling. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Pension Benefits Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 These are the reasons for this petition: Pension benefits for thousands of Manitoba health care workers are being cut because the government has refused to support the front-line health care workers in their desire to maintain their existing Healthcare Employees' Pension Plan (HEPP). The government is doubling the early retirement penalty to 6 percent a year from 3 percent. There will be no cost-of-living benefits for retirees in the foreseeable future, which means that inflation will erode retirees' pension cheques over time.

The government's refusal to support the existing pension plan will have a negative impact on hundreds of front-line health care workers. The government is demonstrating a lack of respect for front-line health care workers by its decision to allow administrative costs in the regional health authorities to skyrocket by millions of dollars. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider redirecting administrative cost savings to front-line health care workers.

To request the provincial government to treat front-line health care workers with the respect they deserve, and to consider supporting the health care employees' pension plan by not cutting pension benefits. Signed by Debbie Giesbrecht, Janet Brako, Monica Vieweg and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Provincial Road 270 Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: It is unacceptable for the residents of Manitoba to travel the unsafe gravel roads of PR 270 in the constituency of Minnedosa. Inclement weather can make PR 270 treacherous to all drivers. Allowing better access to PR 270 would ease the flow of traffic on No. 10 highway. Residents along PR 270 are not as accessible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway. The condition of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unaccept- able. Residents of Manitoba deserve a better rural highway infrastructure.

We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux) consider having PR 270 significantly upgraded with ongoing maintenance, preferably paved, from the junction of Highway No. 16 to Highway 25. To request the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure for the safety of our Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. This petition is presented by Trent Hedley, Lois Sharpe and Lesley Hedley. Pension Benefits Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition. These are the reasons for this petition: Pension benefits for thousands of Manitoba health care workers are being cut because the government has refused to support the front-line health care workers in their desire to maintain their existing Healthcare Employees' Pension Plan (HEPP). The government is doubling the early retirement penalty to 6 percent a year from 3 percent.

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 391 There will be no cost-of-living benefits for retirees in the foreseeable future, which means that inflation will erode retirees' pension cheques over time. The government's refusal to support the existing pension plan will have a negative impact on hundreds of front-line health care workers. The government is demonstrating a lack of respect for front-line health care workers by its decision to allow administrative costs in the regional health authorities to skyrocket by millions of dollars.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider redirecting administrative cost savings to front-line health care workers. To request the provincial government to treat front-line health care workers with the respect they deserve, and to consider supporting the health care employees' pension plan by not cutting pension benefits. Signed by M. Maurer-Stewart, Fay Sapinski, Elaine Lorn and others. * (14:00) Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003, and 2004 is not much better. Manitobans expect their government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability. Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the government accountable.

The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties. Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year.

Signed by Reginald Reyes, Rodrigo Vidaira and Romulo Porcioncula. Physician Shortage–Westman Area Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Westman region serving Brandon and the surrounding area will be without an on-call pediatrician for 20 days between November 10 and December 31, 2004.

As a result of the severe shortage of pediatricians to serve the Westman area, Brandon and area women with high-risk pregnancies as well as critically ill children are being forced, at even greater risk, to travel to Winnipeg for urgent medical attention. The chiefs of the departments of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Family Practice and Anesthesia at the Brandon Regional Health Centre have publicly voiced their concern regarding the potentially disastrous consequences of the shortage.

Brandon physicians were shocked and angered by the lack of communication and foresight on the part of the government related to retention of a local pediatrician. The Minister of Health has stated that Brandon has to put its best foot forward and recruit its own doctors.

392 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 Doctors have warned that if the current situation is prolonged, it may result in further loss of services or the departure of other specialists who find the situation unmanageable. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To strongly urge the Minister of Health to consider taking charge and ensuring that he will improve long-term planning efforts to develop a lasting solution to the chronic problem of pediatrician and other specialist shortages in Brandon.

To strongly urge the Minister of Health to treat this as the crisis that it is and consider consulting with front-line workers, par ticularly doctors, to find solutions. To strongly urge the Minister of Health and the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending highway medicine now. Signed Dave Martinussen, Terry McNabb, Lorne Patterson. COMMITTEE REPORTS Standing Committee on Intergovernmental Affairs First Report Ms. Marilyn Brick (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the First Report of the Standing Committee on Intergovernmental Affairs.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Intergovernmental Affairs– Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Intergovernmental Affairs presents the following as its First Report. Meetings: Your committee met on Thursday, December 2, 2004, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building.

M atters Under Consideration: Bill 4 - The City of Winnipeg Charter Amendment Act (Differential Business Tax Rates)/Loi modifiant la Charte de la ville de Winnipeg (taux de taxe d'entreprise différentiels) Membership Resignations / Elections: Your committee elected Ms. Brick as the Chair- person. Your committee elected Mr. Schellenberg as the Vice-Chairperson. Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting: Mr. Caldwell for Hon. Ms. Wowchuk Mrs. Driedger for Mr. Cummings Ms. Korzeniowski for Mr. Nevakshonoff Mrs. Stefanson for Mrs. Mitchelson Mr. Swan for Hon. Mr.

Rondeau Public Presentations: Your committee heard one presentation on Bill 4 – The City of Winnipeg Charter Amendment Act (Differential Business Tax Rates)/Loi modifiant la Charte de la ville de Winnipeg (taux de taxe d'entreprise différentiels), from the following organization: Mr.

David Sanders, Deloitte & Touche LLP Bills Considered and Reported: Bill 4 - The City of Winnipeg Charter Amendment Act (Differential Business Tax Rates)/Loi modifiant la Charte de la ville de Winnipeg (taux de taxe d'entreprise différentiels) Your committee agreed to report this bill with the following amendment: THAT the proposed clause 334.1(5), as set out in Clause 3 of the Bill, be amended by adding the following at the end: The tax collector must amend the business tax roll to conform with the hearing body's decision, and

section 343 applies, with necessary changes, to the amendment. Ms. Brick: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer), that the report of the committee be received. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed]

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 393 TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Lathlin), I would like to table the Quarterly Financial Statements for the periods ending June 30, 2004, and September 30, 2004, for the Communities Economic Development Fund. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS National Day of Remembrance Hon. Nancy Allan (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement for the House. Because of an event that happened 15 years ago today, we pause to remember the 14 young women killed in

an act of mindless violence at École polytechnique in Montréal. The shock and the horror do not subside over time. Once again, our hearts go out to the families and the friends of those young women who died on December 6, 1989. At the time, we were stunned to learn that these young women were murdered for no other reason than their gender. This even t was so horrific that this date has become a national day of mourning, not only for the victims of the Montréal massacre but for all women who are victims of violence.

They had done nothing wrong, but in the eyes of one man they had taken places in a learning institution that belonged to men. So he killed them. Today, as we commemorate the loss of those 14 young lives, we must pause and reflect on the phenomenon of violence against women in our society. It is also a time for special thoughts for all women who live daily with the threat of violence simply because they are female. Despite the best efforts of governments, victim services, organiza- tions and shelter systems violence against women continues.

I regret this year we have to read out the names of six Manitoba women who were killed since December 6, 2003: Ruby Verna Genaille, 45, from Shoal River; Brenda Levasser from Ebb and Flow; Precious Pascale, a 14-year-old youth from St. Theresa Point; Sophie Jaworski, 83; Sandra Chabuty, 52 and Veronica Lynn Crop, 31, all from Winnipeg. Six lives ended before their time. We must remember December 6 in order to move forward toward ou r goal of eliminating violence against women, making our society a safe place for women and children to live.

We must also pay tribute to the many men who support women, honour their work and advocate for women's rights. We must honour the memory of these women, and we must never waiver in our goal to eliminate violence against women. Please join me in renewing our commitment to keeping women safe. I ask you to observe a moment of silence to remember those 14 young lives, those women of École polytechnique and to remember women everywhere who have died from violence. * (14:10) Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to acknowledge the words by the minister in the Chamber, as well as her words this morning at the sunrise breakfast. On behalf of members on this side of the House, I would also like to make comments on the 15th anniversary of the Montréal massacre. The violence occurred on this heartbreaking day at the hands of one man, Mr. Speaker.

December 6, 1989, 14 women were senselessly killed while studying engineering at the École polytechnique: Geneviève Bergeron, age 21; Hélène Colgan, 23; Nathalie Croteau, 23; Barbara Daigneault, 22; Anne- Marie Edward, 21; Maud Haviernick, 29; Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31; Maryse Leclair, 23; Annie St. Arneault, 23; Michèle Richard, 21; Maryse Laganière, 25; Anne-Marie Lemay, 22; Sonia Pelletier, 28 and Annie Turcotte, 21, the victims who were tragically killed some 15 years ago.

As legislators did back then, so, too, today do we stand and send our condolences to the families, the friends, the loved ones who lost a mother, perhaps a sister, a partner, a niece, a schoolmate, an employee and a friend. This senseless loss of life, this calculated violence against women must not and cannot be tolerated in our country. Manitobans and Canadians will not stand for gender violence because we value inclusion, peace, justice and equality. As legislators and Manitobans, we grieve over the violence that has occurred and the violence that continues to occur in our society.

I know that all honourable members agree that violence is a serious issue especially when it is violence targeted at one group, women.

394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 Mr. Speaker, because of the tragedy, December 6 has been declared a national day of remembrance, an action on violence against women. I know that all honourable members who remember those 14 women and all Manitoba women, as the minister read into the record, we all believe that our constituencies are constituencies of peace, harmony. I know that we will not rest as legislators, as human beings, until violence against women has come to an end. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, we remember today the 14 women whose lives were so tragically ended on December 6, 1989. The events of that day are etched in our collective memories, and they are etched in the history of Canada.

It is an occasion for us not only to remember the 14 whose lives were cut down at such an early stage, the 14 who showed such tremendous promise, it is an occasion for us to renew our commitment, individu- ally and collectively, to do whatever we can to make sure that such tragic even ts do not occur again, and to prevent, to do our part to ensure that we can have a province and a country, i ndeed, a world, where we do not have such violent acts against women, and where we can have women contributing without fear of such acts in many ways to our society, including here in the Legislature. Mr.

Speaker: Can we please rise for a moment of silence. A moment of silence was observed. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 10–The Pension Benefits Amendment Act Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives (Ms. Wowchuk), that leave be given to introduce Bill 10, The Pension Benefits Amendment Act, and that same be now received and read for a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Allan: Mr.

Speaker, this bill makes extensive amendments to The Pension Benefits Act and incor- porates consensus recommendations of the Pension Commission of Manitoba and provisions based on consultations with Manitoba citizens. Provisions relate to such areas as minimum standards, ancillary benefits, phased retirement, surplus and unlocking of balances held in locked-in retirement benefit plans. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us athletes that were representing Manitoba at this summer's 2004 Paralympic Games in Athens. They are: Rhea Schmidt, who is in swimming; Travis Gaertner, of basketball; Joey Johnson, basketball; Glenn Mariash, shooting; Jared Funk, rugby; Kirby Côté, swimming; Tom Hainey, who is the coach of swimming; Bill Johnson, who is the team leader for basketball. These athletes brought home a total of seven gold and three silver medals. Congratulations.

They are the guests of the honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms. Melnick). Also in the public gallery we have with us today Mr. Justin Schinkel of Steinbach. This visitor is a guest of the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today too. Also in the public gallery we have with us today 25 Journalism students from Red River College Princess Campus. These students are under the direction of Mr. Duncan McMonagle. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Izzy Vermette Employment Status Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in October the Doer government was made aware that $40,000 in

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 395 taxpayers' money was being used to hire Izzy Vermette, a well-known gang member to, quote, "get the kids out of gangs." The hiring occurred against the advice of the Winnipeg Police gang unit. Under the Doer government, we have seen 32 murders. We have seen vicious beatings. We have seen gang muggings. We see more frequent and more violent crimes. Gang activity and other violent crimes are on the rise under the Doer government, and what is the solution of the provincial and federal governments? To contract with companies with known ties to the Hells Angels.

This government did. They are hiring known gang members. Mr. Speaker, can the Premier (Mr. Doer) tell all Manitobans what action has he taken to put an end to this absolutely irresponsible use of taxpayers' money? What has he done? * (14:20) Hon. Dave Chomiak (Acting Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), I will take this specific question asked by the Leader of the Opposition with respect to a particular individual under advisement. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, this was brought to the Doer government's attention over a month ago.

Over a month they have known about it, and they have done nothing. This is incredible that a known gang member is sitting and working for something that this government funds, and the best that they can do is say that that they are going to take it under advisement after they have known it for over a month. That is absolutely shameless, and I expect the Premier to stand in his place and answer the question. We know that this gang member, this known member, is involved, and now we know that the known gang member also sits on a working committee, a working committee that the Doer government is aware of.

How does this Premier justify his inaction? How does he justify providing provincial funding to an organization that it knows that this gang member is working there and that he sits on a committee? How does this Premier expect Manitobans to have any respect for his justice? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition with respect to the previous question that he asked with respect to that particular individual, I would take that question under advisement on behalf of the Minister of Justice. I might add, with respect to the second question asked– Mr. Speaker: Order.

When ministers take a question under notice, there should be no

preamble or postamble. I heard him taking the first question as notice for the honourable minister. If the honourable minister is answering the supplementary question, that is a different matter. The initial question has been taken under notice, and if the honourable member is also taking notice of the supplemental question, there is to be no

preamble and no postamble. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Speaker. There are many things that we can do as a government and as a Legislature and as a society to deal with issues of crime, gang-related crime, et cetera. This govern- ment's record with respect to organization of gang units, with respect to prosecutions is unparalleled in this province. I find it very strange that the members opposite who make so much of this voted against the establishment and putting on the street of 40 additional police men and women to protect the citizens of Manitoba. They voted against it.

Their actions speak much louder than their words. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, that is cold comfort to the 32 murders that have taken place here in Manitoba under the watch of this Premier; 32, an all- time record. When asked of the question, this is what I find somewhat astonishing. This is a very serious issue. Justice is very important to all Manitobans, and this Premier does not have the ability to stand in his place and answer a very straightforward question. Mr. Speaker, this year a committee was struck. The Proposal Fund Allocation Committee was established to address homelessness in Winnipeg.

Sitting on that board, one Izzy Vermette, a known gang member. Also on that board, an ex officio of the Doer government. We can get all sorts of comments from this minister, but it begs the question of what is the Premier's strategy to deal with gang activity in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, what other organizations or

396 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 organized crime is the Doer government helping to fund through some kind of a partnership? Why does the Premier not stand in his place and defend this senseless spending? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I understand the Winnipeg Police Service Gang Unit had a recent meeting of the big-10 in Winnipeg which was attended by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) and the official opposition.

The Minister of Justice noted that the gang unit presentation included comments suggesting the Province had directly employed an active gang member against the advice of Winnipeg Police Service. I understand that department staff have consulted with provincial government departments and provincial funding sources. We are advised that the individual in question was not at any time, and is not currently, employed by the Province, and records have been checked back to 1999.

However, the individual referenced in the gang unit may have been working at Thunderbird House, and the anti-gang program there is federally funded. Federal officials were unable to confirm as to whether the individual was employed there, Mr. Speaker. That is the information that has been provided to me. I hope the member will stand corrected with respect to information that he has provided earlier. Izzy Vermette Employment Status Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, Izzy Vermette is a known gang member. He was hired by Thunderbird House.

Thunderbird House is partially funded by the Province, and he was hired against the advice of the Winnipeg gang unit. The Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) continues to talk about his gang strategy as being leading edge and working. I ask the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker, is the hiring of a known gang member a part of the Justice Minister's gang strategy, and is it working. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Acting Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, just two comments to that member's statement. Firstly, from the information provided to me, the provincial government did not hire this particular individual.

Secondly, I just want to point out to members opposite, if they were serious about crime I find it passing strange, indeed, I find it incredible that the funding of 40 additional police officers in the province of Manitoba has been voted against by members opposite. At this time when we need to support our police services, members opposite have voted against them which is a slap in the face to the men and women of this province who put their lives on the line every day to help protect all of us. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, this government knew that he was a gang member and knew that he was hired months ago.

The Justice Minister promised to make Manitoba a hostile environment for gang members and criminal organizations. In the meantime, a known gang member is hired by an organization that is funded partially by the Province, and a few months ago the Province even hired a towing company with connections to the Hells Angels. I ask the Minister of Justice does putting gang members on government payrolls create a hostile environment for gangs. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, just to put in context, again, the inaccuracies that have been brought forward by the Leader of the Opposition and by the member, I am advised that a meeting was held with the Minister of Justice, opposition officials and the Winnipeg Police department. Comments were suggesting that the Province had directly employed an active gang member. Department staff had consulted with a number of provincial agencies and were advised that the individual in question was not at any time and is not currently employed by the Province.

However, the individual referenced by the gang unit may have been working at Thunderbird House. The anti-gang program there is federally funded, and federal officials have been unable to confirm to us whether or not the individual was employed there. Mr. Speaker, the important and fundamental issue is has this government taken action with respect to these matters. Th e record speaks for itself in terms of the legislation and in terms of the– [interjection] Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, we just heard the minister confess that he knew he was hired, and he knew he was a gang member.

The number of gang members in this province is increasing. The Hells

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 397 Angels came to Manitoba under the watch of this Justice Minister in the year 2000. The Hells Angels opened a retail store down the street from the Justice Minister's own constituency office. A towing company was hired by the Province with connections to the Hells Angels. Now we see a known gang member is employed by an organization that is partially funded by the Province. When will this minister get it right? When will he combat gang members instead of hiring them?

When will he create that hostile environment that he has promised, and when will he implement an effective gang strategy? * (14:30) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the information that I have provided to the House, the information concerning this individual, was provided via a letter to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) dated November 25. So the great revelation brought forward by the Leader of th e Opposition was sent in a letter that I have provided advice from to the Leader of the Opposition.

So perhaps the Leader of the Opposition would either like to clarify the facts provided in the letter, or perhaps, correct his initial question which was, according to the letter provided, not accurate. Izzy Vermette Employment Status Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier (Mr. Doer). The Premier knew over a month ago that his government was funding an agency that had a known gang member. That is the issue. They knew a month ago.

The best they can do is try and send some kind of a letter to say, "Well, we know about it, but we are not really part of that funding of that particular person . Yes, we fund the organization." They have known about it and they have done nothing. That is the kind of justice we see under the Doer government. Do nothing. Stand in your place and take responsibility. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Acting Minister of Justice): Mr.

Speaker, if I recall corr ectly, the Leader of the Opposition stood up and accused the government of employing a gang member, despite the fact the Leader had in his hands and quoted from a letter dated November 25. The Leader had it in his hands with respect to that particular information. If the member has additional information, if the member has new information, but trying to make cheap political gain on the backs of individuals is beneath this House.

I suggest he better would have instructed his members to vote in favour of hiring 40 police officers than taking the cheap political shots that he does on a daily basis in this Chamber. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, now we have heard it all. Now the Doer government is basically taking a position that because Izzy Vermette, a known gang member, is sitting on the Proposal Fund Allocation Committee, is working for an organization that is funded by the provincial government, somehow they are resolved, somehow it is a revelation, that because that person somehow has nothing to do with the provincial government.

Well, everybody knows that known gang member is working at Thunderbird House, funded by the provincial government. Everybody knows the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) was made aware of this over a month ago, and everybody knows that this Premier does not have the ability to stand in his place and take responsibility. Do the right thing for a change. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I will table in this Chamber a letter sent on November 25, actually November 26, to the Leader of the Opposition saying, "That meeting was attended by the Minister of Justice and the Official Opposition.

The Minister of Justice noted that the Gang Unit presentation included comments suggesting that the Province had either directly funded or employed an active gang member." "Department staff have consulted with a number of provincial government departments and provincial funding sources. We are advised the individual in question was not at any time and is not currently employed by the Province." "We have checked records back . . ." "However, I understand that the individual referenced by the gang unit may have been working at Thunderbird House." This letter was sent to the Leader of the Opposition three weeks ago.

Now he stands up and says, "You are directly employing a gang member," despite this. Now you see the tone of the question is changing because members opposite know that they

398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 cannot simply try to ride the back of a particular unfortunate circumstance as regarding the situation to make political gain out of it. Mr. Murray: The unfortunate circumstances that we see from this Doer government is, No. 1, the Premier has the inability to stand up and answer a very straight-ahead question about justice, when he knows, as the Premier, we have had 32 murders in the province of Manitoba under his watch, Mr. Speaker.

What is unfortunate about this is that we hear from the Doer government that somehow, because they only knew over a month ago about this known gang member that was working at Thunderbird House, and because, somehow, that particular individual was not being funded provincially, even though they fund the pla ce he is working at, even though he sits on a committee, this Premier does not have the ability to stand up and take responsibility. Why do you not send a signal to Manitobans, Mr. Premier, that you take justice responsibly rather than shoving it to somebody else? It is time to stand and take responsibility.

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, all weekend long I heard from Manitobans– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will look at the issue of Thunderbird House. I know that Mrs. Richard, I think, is the executive director, and I will have to check out all the other arrangements. The letter also mentioned the direct provincial funding. Having said that, all weekend long individuals were coming up to me and asking me how the Conservative Party of Manitoba could vote against 40 additional police officers.

They may laugh, but they are going to be held accountable for their own vote. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind all honourable members, the clock is ticking. Regional Health Authorities Amalgamations Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Brandon Sun reported on Saturday that the Doer government is considering amalgamating the Brandon RHA and the ARHA without the knowledge or support of the Brandon RHA or the ARHA. Mr.

Speaker, residents in west Manitoba have been seeing the Doer government introduce highway medicine to pregnant moms and very sick children. We have seen wait lists more than double under the Doer government. We have seen their hospitals threatened to be closed, and there are no words or actions that can give any cause of hope for the future to reverse this that we see what the Doer government is doing to rural Manitoba.

Will the Premier commit today that, rather than creating a single super-sized health region in the western corner of our province, he will stand in his place and commit to not closing or converting one rural hospital, and will he commit today to put an end to highway medicine? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have reduced the number of administrative boards set up by former members, the regional health boards, from 13 to 11. We have also, as I mentioned last week, increased the out surgeries.

Effective in the new year, there will be a 25% increase in surgical procedures and days at the Brandon regional hospital. There will be an increased amount of diagnostic tests in Brandon with the first MRI outside of the city of Winnipeg. Again, the people I talked to over the weekend from the western part of the province want to know why members opposite voted against the largest reduction in taxes on farmland in the history of the province. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, rather than– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers.

If members wish to have a conversation, they are more than welcome to use our loges, but I need to hear the questions and the answers.

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 399 Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, Manitobans have seen, and this Doer government has a very clear record on what happens when they force amalgamation. It is well-documented. Costs s kyrocket. Despite assur- ances, by the way, by this Premier that forced amalgamation, there would be all sorts of savings. That is what we get from the Doer government. Say one thing, but the facts contradict what they are saying.

The admin costs of the ARHA have increased from $3 million in 1999 to $5.5 million last year, and the admi n costs of the Brandon Regional Health Authority went from $1 million to $2.5 million. * (14:40) Mr. Speaker, given this Minister of Health's track record of mismanag ement and inability to control spending, will the Premier today commit, rather than forcing amalgamation of the ARHA and the Brandon Regional Health Authority, to undertake a review of regional health services throughout the province? Will he commit to that today? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I recall members opposite, in fact all these members of the front bench that were in Cabinet when the regional health authorities were established. I do not know whether the member opposite caucuses with his former members of Cabinet that established all these regional health authorities. In fact, there was not just one regional health authority in Winnipeg, there were two. There were 13 vice-presidents in the city of Winnipeg. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I know members opposite do not like to be held accountable, but when I was visiting with people from across Manitoba, they wanted to know why members opposite voted against 40 more police officers, why they voted against the largest tax reduction on farmland in the history of the province. To go further, why did they vote against the new entertainment complex in the city of Winnipeg? The would-have, could-have, should-have party is not very credible in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, as the saying goes, to the Premier, when in doubt, shout.

We know that this Premier has made commitments in 1999 and again in 2003. He had all of the solutions to end hallway medicine, to fix health care. He said in 2003 that he would not close or convert one rural hospital. That is what he said. Rather than standing on these election promises, the Doer government has what? Created highway medicine; more than doubled the wait list; proceeding with plans to close or convert rural hospitals, and now is going down a path of forcing the Brandon Regional Health Authority and the ARHA to amalgamate.

The people of Westman are justified in wanting to know if this Premier's commitments were only for the purposes of getting re-elected. Hollow, hollow commitment. Will he do the right thing today and clearly state that, rather than forcing amalgamation of the ARHA and the Brandon Regional Health Authority, that he will direct a review of regional health services throughout Manitoba, and that he will stand by his election commitment to not close or alter one rural hospital? Will he make that commitment today? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I want to say to the House that we have altered health care, and we will continue to alter and innovate health care. We have altered health care by doing the renovations that were promised seven times in Brandon. We have altered health care by putting an MRI machine outside of the Perimeter Highway. We have altered health care by putting a new CAT scan in Steinbach, in Selkirk, in Thompson, in The Pas. We have altered health care by having more home care. We have altered health care by innovating with more telemedical sites. Yes, we will alter health care and improve it every day for Manitobans.

Assiniboine Regional Health Authority Service Decline Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, the Premier cannot stand in th is House and crow about how he has altered medicine until he has talked to a woman, who was giving birth to a child, was taken to Brandon, and then shuttled to Winnipeg because there was no room and no ability to deal with her in Brandon. That is the truth of the health care system today. We put people on highways, we put them into ambulances, and we find facilities en route. Mr.

Speaker, the Health Minister has made comments about the possibility of amalgamating the Brandon health region with the Assiniboine health region. The Assiniboine health region's administra- tive costs have escalated from $3 million to $5.5

400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 million. Now the minister is talking about amalgamating, but the services in that Assiniboine Regional Health Authority have diminished to the people. We had a dialysis unit promised for Russell four years ago. It still has not been delivered. Doctors are leaving the region. I want a commitment from the Minister of Health today that he will not only do the right thing, but ensure that health services are delivered properly to the people in the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority. Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister of Health): We did the right thing when we finally built the Brandon Regional Health Centre. Mr. Speaker, we did the right thing when we bought 80 new ambulances. We did the right thing when we put a CAT scan into Portage la Prairie, and the hole was dug last week, and the machine will be installed and in place by June. We did the right thing when we transferred hip and knee surgeries to Boundary Trails Hospital. We have done the right thing in rural Manitoba to strengthen health care over and over and over, and we are not finished. Fourte en hundred surgeries are going to Selkirk.

A hundred new dental surgeries are going out to Beausejour. There are new cancer care sites in Pinawa and Deloraine. We will alter and improve and strengthen health care, every time we take action in rural Manitoba. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, the minister and this government have decimated the health care system in western Manitoba. Today, a community that services 7000 clients is down to one doctor. Out of 47 doctors hired in that region, 37 have left. Is this what we call quality health care? Is this what this minister refers to as an improved health care system?

I would ask the minister whether or not he will pay attention to services to clients rather than tinkering with the system. Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, as I have said many times in answers to similar questions, there are 139 more doctors today serving Manitoba than there were when we formed office. Wh en they left office there were 116 fewer doctors serving Manitoba than when they started. As I have said in response to this question before, some 52 of these doctors are in rural Manitoba.

We are very proud of the record that we have achieved, but there is much more to do, and I want to tell the member opposite that some people from rural Manitoba have some very helpful suggestions. One of them, in particular, a doctor's partner, gave me some very good advice and very helpful advice that I have told her that I will follow up on very quickly, to strengthen our recruiting because of her experience with our system. There are people out there who want to strengthen our system, and we will work with them every day. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, the reality is that the people do not believe this government because it was the Premier (Mr. Doer) who went through the region two days before the election and said in Erickson, we will not close your hospital, we will not alter your services. He went to Rivers and he said the same thing, "We will not alter your services, we will not close your hospital." He said, "I am the Premier, I will make those decisions." Today we have four hospitals in that region that do not offer the services they used to before the election. Will this minister ensure that those services are reinstated? Mr. Sale: Mr.

Speaker, we work every day with Doctor Burnett in the regional health authorities of Manitoba association to help staffing efforts that are going on in all parts of Manitoba, including in Winnipeg. I simply remind members: 139 more, 116 less and, by the way, I want to table for the information of the member the actual savings for the regional health authority on the amalgamation that happened in western Manitoba of $1.1 million savings. I want to also inform the House that from 2001 to 2002-2003, the last date of which we have complete, the administrative costs declined from 7.7 percent to 6.6 percent.

Rancher's Choice Beef Co-op Federal Funding Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): The Minister of Agriculture, from time to time, has blamed farmers, she has blamed co-operatives, and she has blamed other people for not being able to build a processing plant in Manitoba. Now she is blaming the federal government for not participating in building a processing plant in the province of Manitoba. Will the Minister of Agriculture today tell the people of Manitoba which minister she has discussed with in the federal government the participation of building a processing plant in Manitoba? * (14:50)

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 401 Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I hope when the member is asking this question that he is now on side and agrees that we should increase the slaughter capacity in this province, because from what we heard in the past from him, he has not been on side. With respect to which minister I have raised it with, I have raised this issue with the federal Minister of Agriculture and Food, and my Premier (Mr. Doer) has raised th e issue with the federal minister.

We were very pleased when the federal minister came to Manitoba on September 10 and said that they were providing a loan-loss provision. Unfortunately, they are not being very flexible and, in fact, the programs that they are proposing are not working for producers. I hope that they will look very seriously to the bu siness plan for Rancher's Choice which I also provided to the federal minister. I also hope I can count on his support to lobby the federal government so they would be involved. Mr. Penner: Mr.

Speaker, I have personally had discussions with the federal Treasury Board chairman of the federal government, and also, on another occasion, his staff, and both have confirmed that there is significant money available to build up processing capacity in Manitoba. Would the Minister of Agriculture today table the business plan that she presented to the federal government when she requested support for a processing plant? Ms. Wowchuk: I am really, really surprised that the member would not understand business and does not realize that that is not my business plan. It is the business plan of Rancher's Choice.

It is Rancher's Choice, right or not right, to provide a business plan. They asked me to give that business plan to the federal minister. I did it on their behalf, and I am disappointed that he would expect us to make public somebody's private business plan. That is not the way you do business. Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that a Minister of Agriculture from this province of Manitoba would approach a federal minister without any indication as to what was going on in the province and ask them for money.

This minister also has constantly said that our borders would open when we had discussions with our American counterparts. Now we hear that the Hong Kong borders are going to be open to Manitoba beef, although it is a bit too much of a distance to ship live cattle to Hong Kong. Would this minister today be prepared to partner with private industry investors, the federal government, to build a processing industry to handle the 500 000 head of 30-month-and-under cattle produced in the province of Manitoba? Would she do that today? Ms.

Wowchuk: We all realize that the situation we were in when we had very little slaughter capacity in this province when the border was closed is one that we do not want to continue. It was under the member opposite's administration that the slaughter capacity in this province declined, and they did absolutely nothing about it. They did absolutely nothing when they were in office to increase slaughter capacity. We have been in discussion with many people in this province who are looking at how they can increase their slaughter capacity. We will continue to work with them.

There has been a commitment by our government that we will work with them, and we worked on a daily basis with Rancher's Choice and other people who have said they have an interest in increasing slaughter capacity in this province. I only wish the opposition would get on board rather than being critical and saying that Rancher's Choice cannot go. Aiyawin Corporation Operational Review Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, at Aiyawin Corporation– Mr. Speaker: Order. I think we need a little clarification here. For the information of all members, we are now on question No. 7. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, at Aiyawin Corporation, there are hundreds of thousands of dollars unaccounted for. A brother of the general manager has been receiving untendered contracts and using the corporation's credit card. The board is said to have hired the manager's brother, but there is no record of this in the board minutes. The present government has been missing in action for five years. There was not even a proper membership base, let alone a proper membership-elected board and board

402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 meetings. For five years this government has stood by and done nothing while public dollars have been walking out the door. I ask the Minister responsible for Family Services and Housing why was her government missing in action when it came to monitoring and mentoring the Aiyawin Corporation. How could her government have so badly let down low-income Aboriginal people in Manitoba? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Again, Mr. Speaker, I will correct the record. The department was concerned about Aiyawin .

We began an operational review earlier this year. I will quote from the CBC story this morning, "This review was conducted by staff and auditors at the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. They started their work in February, and it was sent to Aiyawin on November 22." This review is very thorough, Mr. Speaker, and that is quoted from CBC this morning. The department has not been missing in action. We have been taking action and will continue to do so. Mr. Gerrard: For four and a half years, until this February, this government was missing in action.

For five years this government has been letting taxpayers' dollars walk out the door. For five years the normally expected oversight of public funds provided to Aiyawin Corporation has been absent. The present Minister of Family Services and Housing has been slow to act at every step. Only after she learned that the Liberals and the media were on to this issue did she write to the Auditor General to say, "You better investigate." I ask the Minister of Family Services and Housing to table today the operational review of the Aiyawin Corporation so Manitobans can know– Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Melnick: Again, Mr.

Speaker, I will stand and correct the record. We have been monitoring Aiyawin. We had taken action long before the member became aware that there was a concern. There was a process in place. The process is that we are awaiting Aiyawin to respond by the 13th of December to see if they will be able to put a plan in place for corrective measures. If not, we will move to remove that funding. The department has been on top of this issue. We will stay on top of this issue, and we will move through the process as is appropriate. Government Advertising Costs Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Over the week- end I had opportunity to see a commercial. In the commercial, this government tries to send out this warm and fuzzy feeling to Manitobans that they are cutting back on taxes. Yet I reflect on the budget, Mr. Speaker, and I do not recall seeing any commercials that said you are now going to have start paying taxes on legal fees, or taxes on accounting. In an attempt to push out propaganda to the public as a whole, the government now is saying, "We are providing tax breaks." What is the cost?

How much money is the taxpayer going to have to pay to put this kind of propaganda out on the airwaves? I truly believe that it should be the New Democratic Party paying for this propaganda, not the Manitoba taxpayer. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I am surprised the member opposite has not apologized to the House for using pages for delivering material. That is against our rules, Mr. Speaker. We need no lectures in this House. Both sides of the House that have been in government in Manitoba have not taxed the motive fuel tax on farmland and farmers. The federal Liberal Party of Canada does. Mr.

Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Livable Communities Awards Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): I rise today to bring attention to and applaud the Town of Gimli for being chosen a finalist at the 2004 International Awards for Livable Communities. The awards ceremony was held October 14-18 in Niagara Falls to acknowledge communities that

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 403 exhibit dedication to best practice for management of the local environment. Finalists are judged on environmental practices, heritage management, land- scape enhancement, citizen community involvement and future planning. Along with being nominated a finalist among communities of 20 000 or less population, Gimli also re ceived a gold award for their walking trails project and a bronze award for community involvement. * (15:00) Gimli should be very proud of its accomplish- ments.

The Internatio nal Awards for Livable Communities is a prestigious competition that draws applications from countries all over the world, and is endorsed by the United Nations environmental program. Mr. Speaker, although Gimli was not chosen the most livable community in the world, there is reason to celebrate. Gimli is a fantastic place to live, and this competition put it on the world stage where it deserves to be.

In addition, the conference and awards ceremony provided officials from Gimli a priceless opportunity to meet with other communities and share ideas and approaches to common problems such as energy conservation, education, health and attracting outside investment. This valuable experience will benefit the citizens of Gimli in the future and will bring the town closer to becoming the most livable community in the world. I would like to thank Peter Partington, the chairman of the Regional Municipality of Niagara and the host of the event.

I would like to thank Patrick Robson and Florrie Neufeld, who, I have been advised, organized the details of the event. I extend my deepest thanks to the citizens of Gimli who provided crucial input for the presentation, as well as Catherine Strong and Mayor Kevin Chudd, who made the formal presen tation in Niagara Falls. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dan Lussier Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today and congratulate a constituent in Southdale, Mr.

Dan Lussier, who recently was awarded the prestigious Rhodes Scholarship, which is presented to students who excel in academics, student activities, volunteerism and athletics. Dan Lussier is a graduate of St. Paul's High School, which is one of the many great schools in Winnipeg. Currently he is in his fifth year of mechanical engineering at the University of Manitoba and is focussed on the aerospace program within his department. Dan has not only excelled in academics but also in student activities. While attending high school, he was an academic tutor and captain of the varsity volleyball and basketball teams.

Dan's involvement has also continued into his post-secondary education as he is involved with the university student council in volunteering at the Habitat for Humanity and the St. Amant centres, both residential and resource facilities for Manitobans living with developmental diseases. Rhodes Scholarship recipients face an extensive application process, and those chosen receive financial coverage for books, tuition and housing while studying at Oxford University in England.

In total, the University of Manitoba has had 86 Rhodes Scholarships awarded to their students over the years, which is more than any other university in western Canada. Rhodes Scholarships have acknowledged the outstanding accomplishments of 11 applicants this year in Canada, 2 in total from the province of Manitoba. Again, I would like to congratulate Dan Lussier on his tremendous accomplishment and wish him continued success in his future academic career. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Breakfast with Santa Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr.

Speaker, on Saturday, December 11, 2004, it is my pleasure to be an invited guest at St. Norbert Community Centre's Second Annual Breakfast with Santa. I am very excited to be attending Breakfast with Santa this year. I had the honour of assisting with last year's event, and feel that this event reflects the generosity and community commitment of St. Norbert residents. The staff and volunteers of St. Norbert Community Centre work hard to make Breakfast with Santa a successful and joyous event for St. Norbert children. The community centre, in co-operation with local businesses, ensures that St.

Norbert children receive a gift from Santa and that all children and parents enjoy a breakfast of pancakes and sausages. Residents and local St. Norbert businesses donate

404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 their money, food and time to make this event successful. Through the generosity of local merchants and residents, last year's Breakfast with Santa served over 200 meals and provided over 100 gifts to local children. This is something all volunteers and local businesses should be proud of. Mr. Speaker, I am happy to support St. Norbert Community Centre's Breakfast with Santa again this year. I will be helping other volunteers in the kitchen and also helping Santa hand out gifts.

The volunteers who willingly give up a Saturday morning to help with this event are to be commended for their generosity and community spirit. I would like to thank St Norbert Community Centre, especially Rick and Kathy Thiessen for their hard work in preparing this event. I also want to thank the following businesses for generously sponsoring this event: Niakwa Pizza, St. Norbert Motor Hotel, Foodland, Fairbairns Foods, The Pony Corral, General Gems, Jim's Home Improvements, R. J. Friesen Roofing, Co-op Gas Bar, Councillor John Angus, Mac's, K. W.

Distributors, On Location, Vantis Credit Union, Cadara Sales and Hilker Enterprise. Their dedication and community spirit is an inspiration to us all. Thank you. Boonstra Barn Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): An investment in the future. Dotting the prairie landscape is a common sight of the family barn which has become familiar to Manitobans. Unfortunately, many of these structures have fallen into disrepair as farming industry has changed. However, I do not rise today to speak of the past but rather to address the future and new developments in my constituency. Mr.

Rob Boonstra and Brian Boonstra of Meadows recently unveiled their brand new 52 000 square foot barn. I extend my congratulations to the Boonstra family as they begin operation as a state-of- the-art dairy barn. Their optimism is contagious as they invested in the stalls of 260 cows, even though they currently milk 130 cows. The Boonstra brothers have committed to this project for the comfort of their livestock. A simple matter of decreasing the slope of the approach to the rotary parlour makes it easy for the cows to enter and exit.

It may seem like a small detail, but such changes are signs of ingenuity and empathy. As Manitoba farmers face adversity, this family, like many of their fellow agriculturists, do not abandon hope. Rather, they stand steadfast. Confident in the strength of their business, the Boonstra family should be applauded for embracing new technology and investment in the future. Thank you. Victoria General Hospital Guild Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, as the MLA for Fort Garry, I had the honour of attending the 50th anniversary Come and Go Tea of the Guild of Victoria Hospital on September 23, 2004.

This event was enjoyed by over a hundred past and present volunteers. One of the highlights was a fashion show representing the fashions over the decades. I would like to share with you and my colleagues some information about this special group. It was established in 1954. The Victoria Hospital guild plays an important role in the lives of patients and staff of Victoria General Hospital . Guild volunteers help serve meals to patients in the hospital and also greet and assist hospital visitors.

Guild volunteers also reach out to family members awaiting news of loved ones in surgery, often offering them words of encouragement. Guild volunteers are active in hospital fundraising and raise funds which helped the hospital purchase a CT scanner in 1989, the first scanner in any community hospital in Manitoba. The guild also donated $500,000 toward a filmless imaging system and is committed to help furnish the new oncology unit. The guild's more than 300 volunteers have raised over $2.5 million for hospital projects. This is no small feat. The guild has a strong community commitment.

The guild sponsors the Mattie Hanna scholarship for young volunteers interested in health care and the Bea Dunstone scholarship for support staff wanting to advance their careers. The guild also co-ordinates volunteer programs for high school and university-age students. This strong community commitment earned the guild the Mayor's Volunteer Service Award in 1994. I have had the honour of attending guild fundraisers in the past, including the Christmas Dickens of a Sale and the Bridge Luncheon. It always makes me happy to see the strong commitment that guild volunteers show. In closing, Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank Marilyn Nash, president of the guild, and all past and present guild volunteers for their ongoing commitment and

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 405 wish them continued success in the future. Thank you. GRIEVANCES Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I rise to use my grievance to express my dismay about the ongoing concerns around how this government has handled Hydra House. Even today in Question Period we saw the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) say he was not responsible. He has demonstrated he has not been responsible in the way Hydra House has been managed. * (15:10) The Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) said she was not responsible in her area. The Minister of Family Services (Ms.

Melnick) has delayed, avoided and covered up and is not responsible. So I ask you, Mr. Speaker, who is on third. When will this government stand up and start taking responsibility for the management of the areas which have been placed under their responsibility and their authority? Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of the things that concerns me the most is, when there has been found to be misappropriation or mishandling that occurs in management of government, that people scramble to say, "Well, it was not me, it is not my area.

It must have been somebody else who made the mistake." This government does not stand up and say, "As a minister, I take responsibility. I take the final responsibility for what has happened in my department.

What is happening in the case of vulnerable persons in care, I take responsibility for what occurred, and by golly, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that it is corrected, to make sure it doesn't happen again, and to make sure that the people who need the care get the care appropriately, and that the finances, of which the taxpayers of this province worked so hard to provide for this government, that those tax dollars are managed for the best interests of where they are intended to be spent." In a $7-billion budget, everybody understands that the fact is the minister will not know where every dollar is being spent, but, by golly, they are responsible for directing the actions of the people within their department and within the public service to make sure that they are doing everything they can, everything within their power and their authority, to make sure that there is appropriate action being taken.

When I look at the current situation in Hydra House, as we go forward to deal with the issues that are out there right now, we have been asking and we have asked in this House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for the report that we believe was put together by LeVan Hall. That report may not be a controversial report. We do not know what is in it. Mr. Hall suddenly ended his responsibility, or in the public sense, we were told that his responsibility was ended, very quickly and without explanation.

Given all of the concerns that have been raised and given the fact that, as we approach the holiday season right now, there are a lot of families out there who will be saying to themselves, "One of my loved ones is resident in Hydra House. I wonder what it is going to be like for them for Christmas. Will they be dislocated from where they are currently located? Will their residence be changed? Will those that work with them and help them be changed?

Can they expect to have a comfortable Christmas if I am unable to provide additional supports that might be necessary?" Those questions are being asked in a legitimate way by a lot of very caring families and individuals out there, who would like to know where this is government going with its responsibility on Hydra House. I tie that very clearly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to what is a very disturbing trend.

While I started my comments, in what, in the eyes of some on the other side, might be slightly light-hearted, it is a very disturbing trend when questions are asked of government and government either avoids the question or does not answer it. We know in Question Period that can be a strategy and that can happen, but in the bigger sense, when there is a larger issue at play and the public wants to, and I believe has a right to certain information, and that information is somehow subverted, and I choose that word very deliberately, when that information is subverted, and I want the Minister of Family Services (Ms.

Melnick) to think about the definition of that.

406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 The Hall report, I will use that term to refer to it, because I do not know how else to refer to it, or the interim report, it has been referenced, which raises as a question, "So exactly what is in it?" Secondly, it has been, apparently, released to some members of the media, and we saw a very disturbing parallel just today being raised in a matter of privilege. I know that has been taken under advisement so I will not comment further on it.

But my point is that when, as in this case, a report or a paper has been asked for in this Chamber and is not released or tabled but it is released in another form, that causes considerable concern about what might be the motive. I hope I get the government's attention when I ask about motive. What in the world could be the motive? If the Minister of Financ e (Mr.

Selinger) was to say that his finances are off, there may be an answer, inasmuch as he has not yet received an accurate estimate from the federal government what the transfer payments would be, or his tax revenue is a projected income based on the activity of the economy if something significant changes then he can say, well, the information going in was not as good as it should have been, but in this case the information is there. Mr. Speaker in the Chair In this case, forward-looking plans are needed in order to deal with the concerns of the public and concerns of the residents.

At the same time this government has shown a disturbing trend to not be willing to either undertake the responsibility that is necessary when concerns are raised or avoid publicly discussing that responsibility because we now have the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms. Melnick) who has two agencies under significant scrutiny. Aiyawin Housing, there are some very, very disturbing trends that are being raised there, and this is the same sort of situation that arose when questions were being asked about Hydra House. There were disturbing questions being raised.

In this case the government seems to be responding more directly to the Aiyawin but what did they know before Aiyawin concerns started to become public? Is indeed the Liberal Leader in this Chamber correct when he says, "Well nobody would have done anything if I had not asked the question." You know, there is a parallel with Hydra House there. The CBC did an inquiry years ago on Hydra House and raised some very disturbing questions at that time as well, and what happened? What happened? Not much, Mr. Speaker.

As we look forward about the current situation with Hydra House, we are not getting any forthcoming answers or direction from the government as to what their plans are or should be. We know very simply that if they intend to assume responsibility for the residents, for some of the residents, they are going to have to explain publicly how they are going to acquire a value to place on those properties if they take them over. What kind of arrangement are they going to have about keeping staff? We do not know today whether or not some of the senior management staff is still in place.

No doubt they are under some scrutiny, but are the same people who were making decisions two years ago, three years ago, are some of those still making decisions today? That strikes me as being a serious, serious concern that this government needs to stand up, publicly address, indicate where they are moving with this issue. Mr.

Speaker, the government has stated, and correctly, many times, that the safety and security and the happiness and well-being of those who are clients and residents in the houses of Hydra House should be the first consideration. * (15:20) They should not be disadvantaged and they should not be forgotten in the shifting sands of management that are going to undoubtedly have to occur within their lives, but, in a publicly account- able way, I fear that this government has decided that they have manoeuvred the opposition into a very short session, one where the Premier (Mr.

Doer) could have called us back sooner, there were issues that would have been very legitimate, to have an earlier call. The strategy seems to be if we take a little bit of bruising during this session, if we take a manageable amount of negative hits in this session, we will be out here by the ninth, and then who is going to be able to keep track of what is going on? We will be out of here by the ninth. I look across the way at some of the members sitting in the government benches, and I would suggest that they are probably kind of uncomfortable with what is happening with the issues that are being

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 407 raised here. I see at least one minister of the Crown looking at me and not being too sure that I am very convincing, but I look around at some of the faces of her colleagues who may wonder if there is maybe more going on in the problems around Hydra House, around Aiyawin, around the accountability of expenditures within health care, policy decisions in natural resources.

You can slip through these issues during a short session, but if you have a session where more accountability is, in fact , acknowledged by govern- ment, government can come out looking an awful lot better. Why should I be putting forward good advice for the government, but the fact is government, if it has nothing to hide, has everything to gain by putting it on the table. Tell us where you are going. Tell us what your plans are.

I know that there are members in the government benches over there who have been relegated in some cases to sit near the potted plants and are, in fact, uncomfor table with what they see happening because they believe, as I just said, that it would be a lot better if they could put the information out there, and it would not be a situation of where they are burying the information, or submarining what they are doing would be actively defending in a proactive way where they are going to take their responsibilities as a government. In burning out my grievance, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to spend all of my time being critical of the government, I want the government to listen. I want the government to talk to the public, talk to this Chamber directly, about what their actions might be, what they intend to do on behalf of people who are affected by some of the s ituations that are out there today. If they do not do that, they will spend the rest of the winter defending what I think for this government are some very unfortunate situations. They are not just unfortun ate, they are troubling. They are all the more troubling because the current Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale) is unwilling to acknowledge that he might have had information, and the fact is we believe very firmly he had information that he did not act on. The current Minister of Family Services (Ms. Melnick) has information, and she set the trend, frankly, in committee, in the last sitting of this House, she would not answer, avoided answering, provided misleading information regarding the children in hotels. Now that information is starting to come out, and we realize that the minister was, in fact, I will use the sports vernacular, ragging the puck.

She was playing with the topic and not forthcoming with information. Every time government goes down that route, they are starting to be in a situation where they are opening the third envelope. I think most of who have been elected members know the story about the three envelopes that are sitting on a minister's desk when they come in to government. On the first day, you open the second envelope and when you get to opening it, then you get into trouble, you open the second one.

Then when you get to the third one, you know that you have reached the end of your mandate because you have to start preparing three envelopes. Mr. Speaker, I am comfortable that this government will not accept good advice, but I had to put on the record my concerns. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Pembina, on a grievance? Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is with hesitation that I get up because, during the period of time that I have been in this Legislature, this is the first time that I am getting up on a grievance.

However, I feel that it is my responsibility as the MLA representing the constituency of Pembina, but also representing Manitobans, that I need to get up to express my concerns. As a result of this session, and our trying through Question Period, our trying through the Public Accounts process, to get some answers from this government, certainly we have not gotten answers. I believe it is important for all Manitobans to find out what really is the underlining issue regarding Hydra House. So it is with that in mind, Mr.

Speaker, that I am getting up today to express my concerns, the concerns that we feel on this side of the House regarding the specifics. As the result of not getting answers to the questions that we have, be that in Question Period, it leads one toward suspicion, like what are they hiding? Are there issues out there that the general public should not be made aware of? Consequently, I feel that it is important that we continue to drive this issue, to ultimately hope that the government of the day is going to be listening to the appeals that we make, and will in fact, as we

408 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 have called for a number of times, we will be calling for a public inquiry. Mr. Speaker, when a government is alerted to the possibility that taxpayer dollars are being misspent, they must do everything in their power to ensure that the allegations are investigated and answers are provided. This is what the Doer government should have done when they were alerted to the financial mismanagement occurring at Hydra House in November of 2000, but they did not. The question is why they did not.

As I have indicated at the outset, I believe it is important for all Manitobans to know where these monies are going. I continue to ask the government to come clean and to give us these answers. I also do it for the fact that I represent an area, and I am very proud of it, that we have an area and a facility known as Gateway Resources that houses and that looks after those who are vulnerable in our society. They do a wonderful job of looking after these people, and I believe that, as Manitobans, as individuals, we have that responsibility to look after those who are vulnerable.

Again, if there are finances that are needed in order to be able to accommodate those people, certainly we need to be out there, and we need to give that. Mr. Speaker, coming back to the issue at hand, this is about finances. This is about mismanagement of finances. Where did these monies go? I believe it is important that we know that the monies that are out there, that they are directed in the proper channel.

Yet, though we have asked, as I have indicated through Question Period, through Public Accounts process, we have asked time and time and time again, where did the dollars go, the misappropriation of the funds. Then I would go back to it is not only us who have been asking these questions, but the Auditor General, in fact, came out and highlighted some of the issues that ar e out there. Consequently, I believe that there is a responsibility, that the onus is on the government of the day to come forward and to give us the answers to these questions. Mr.

Speaker, the Doer government had at least five opportunities to address the misspending of taxpayer dollars at Hydra House. Why did they let these opportunities go by without taking action? Again, I know that there have been all kinds of blame that have been put out there, but the issue is that when the Auditor General came out and specifically addressed the concerns that were out there, why did the government, why did the now- Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale), the then-Minister of Family Services, not come forward and indicate listen, we have got to do an investigation into to this. * (15:30) That leads me to the point where the minister of the day, the now-Minister of Health, said that he had done everything that was needed. In fact, he had done an extensive, extraord inary review of this, and basically left it at that.

I know that we asked questions within the House here about this extraordinary review that had taken place which was basically, the indication was, "Well, I talked to them, and I saw or heard nothing, and I just let it go." Now I know that we have some lawyers within the Chamber here, and I think if they would go through an investigation, it would be simply more of asking a question than just like, "What do you know? Oh, you do not know anything? Oh, thank you very much. Now we will go and we will look at the other issue." Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, we have tried getting answers during the Public Accounts Committee, but the Doer government refused to allow those directly involved with this fiasco to appear before the committee. All we are asking, again, is what the Auditor General has asked for. We have asked that we do an investigation, that we find out where these discrepancies have taken place. But are we getting anywhere? The answer is no. Mr. Speaker, the Premie r (Mr. Doer) needs to call a public inquiry so the Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale), the former Family Services Minister, along with senior departmental staff and executives at Hydra House, will have to provide answers to Manitobans under oath. I believe that this is extremely important, that we have this take place. Again, why is it that we want to have the answers to these questions? It is so that the monies that had been redirected, whether they ha ve been spent inappropri- ately, that we find out the answers to these questions so that we can give those dollars that had been spent, redirect them and give them to those who are vulnerable within our society. Mr.

Speaker, as my colleague who spoke and had the grievance on the same issue indicated very clearly, it almost appears that because the govern- ment of the day has determined that we are going to

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 409 have a very short session, and I knew that at the end of the previous session our then-critic for Family Services did raise this, but it almost appears as though there is something that, because of the duration of time, now they are trying to say, "Let us quickly move on, let us quickly get through this session.

Hopefully, somehow, people will forget, and we can wash this underneath the rug." That is why, again, and I want to reiterate the fact that we have asked time and time again, I know that the opposition members have stated and have asked the question, let us call for a public inquiry. Let us get down to the bottom of the issue. I know that the MLAs on the other side, I am sure many of them, have no idea what the issue is about, because the minister of the day, the then- Family Services minister who today is the Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale) probably did not advise them, probably did not give them any information, and so they, I would suspect, would be wanting to know what the issues are as well. I would assume that they would want to know what the issues are, the things that we are concerned about, and I am sure they would be concerned about them, too because again, as I have indicated, this is not about us. This is about those who are vulnerable out there; this is the children out there, even the adults who have disabilities. Again, as a province, a government, we have a responsibility to them.

We need to be able to address the issues that they have. Now, Mr. Speaker, despite pressures in 2002 by our caucus, as I indicated, the former Family Services Minister continually denied that there were problems and, instead, questioned the credibility of the former Hydra House CEO who brought allega- tions of financial misman agement forward and the CBC investigative reporter who broke this story. So, as we have seen time and time again in this House, it is always a deflection. It is someone else's fault. Rather than taking ownership for the problems that are out there, it is always someone else's fault. Mr.

Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair We heard that today in Question Period. As soon as we are short of an answer, it is either the federal government's problem or oh, way back when, you know, when there was a different party in government, it must have been their problem. Rather than taking ownership for the concerns, the issues that are out there and ad dressing them, they are trying to deflect this on a different department or a different government or the federal government, whatever.

What we are saying, and this is the concern that I have, that we go out there, that we continue to pressure the government to call for an independent public inquiry which would get down to the bottom of this. That is the only way they would be able to address the shortcomings that are out there. Further, we also believe the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) should apologize to both the individual who brought the concerns forward a nd to the CBC reporter who broke the story. He should apologize to Manitobans for misleading them and for the contradicting statements. I want to highlight some of those statements he made.

First, he said he did an extraordinary review. I just mentioned that briefly before. The then- Minister of Family Services, who today is the Minister of Health, indicated and he said, "We did an extraordinary review. We have made all the normal and some quite extraordinary checks into the issue.

We are satisfied that what we are seeing is quality service, adequate accountability and a dispute between a former employee and his boss." Then he said he did not have the capacity, and then he said he sought the advice of legal counsel who told him he had no right to seek information from a private corporation's financial affairs and that the focus of the investigation should be on adequacy of service. This extraordinary review, as I indicated before, is simply one of asking, "Are there any abnormalities? Is there anything you think is different from what it should be?" I would submit to you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that, if I were asked that question and I were a part of the investigation, I would try to shrug that off and say there is no real issue here. Rather than the minister of the day going out and really doing an accounting of what had taken place, that did not take place. He continues to say, "We are satisfied that what we are seeing is qu ality service, adequate accountability and a dispute between a former employee." Then he says he has had legal counsel, and he goes on to say that the investigation is adequate and he just wants to move on. I submit to you that is not adequate.

That is what we have been endeavouring to determine within the last while.

410 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 I want to proceed to a comment the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen) made in this House. First he says that in 2000, when the allegations of misspending at Hydra House came to his attention, he did an extraordinary investigation. Then he said that he could not do an investigation, and then he said that he was not allowed to do an investigation. I move on to continue, and I hasten, I realize my time is short, but the Premier (Mr. Doer) has also indicated, and he has said this time and time again, "The truth will set you free." We have heard that many times.

We have heard this for years. I agree with that. Again, if th e Doer government would simply call for an independent public inquiry, it would give Manitobans an opportunity to put this to rest because they would be able to get the witnesses they need in order to determine the spending habits, the things that are taking place, and would then be able to correct them.

Again, I want to speak on behalf of those who are vulnerable within our society, that we give them every opportunity and every possibility to be able to utilize the funds in the way that they are of most benefit to them and as they are directed by govern- ment. Again, I would call on the Doer government to call for an independent public inquiry. Thank you very much. * (15:40) Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I take the opportunity today to rise on a grievance. As you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, a grievance is a very serious and important matter, and I do not bring it lightly.

I had the opportunity to think long and hard about this before I rose to my feet here today to bring to your attention, and to other members of this House, and I hope, really, to all Manitobans, this very important issue. I want to commend both the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), and the Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), who spoke prior to me rising on this issue, because it was one that really strikes at democracy, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

There has been a lot of debate about democracy in this House over the course of the last few weeks and I think that that in itself is healthy, you know, when we protect democracy. I heard earlier on, the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton) talking about how no analogies or comparisons should be made to what is happening in Ukraine because that is a special situation of democracy in peril. But I would say that any time there is an affront to democracy we should be vigilant in raising it and in defending our democratic rights that we have, because democracy is usually not, I would venture to say, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I suspect you have probably done some research on this yourself, but it is not usually something that falls away like a crumbling wall and one day it is standing and the next day it is in ruins. I would say many times it is a chipping away. It is a chipping away of democratic rights, and one more chip in the wall here, and one more chip in the wall there, and then suddenly after all these various offences come forward then there is a collapse. So, when the Member for Pembina and the Member for Ste.

Rose raised issues about the lack of democracy, and we heard it on a matter of privilege here from the member from Sp ringfield today, it is a chipping away.

I would venture to say that our friends around the world who are fighting for democracy, whether it is in the Ukraine or other countries, would stand by us and say from their own lessons, you know, never to take any democratic right, however small or large one might put it on the scale of democratic spectrum, never to take any one too lightly and to defend every one with passion and to defend every one with vigour, because every time you lose a little bit of democracy, you are moving down that road to not having the freedoms that are valued.

So that is essentially why I rise today because there have been so many instances that we have seen from this government over the last, well, really, over the last 18 months, since the past election, but then prior to that for the four years previously, of kind of an affront or a lack of respect for us as members and for democracy as a whole, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

You know, I think back not too many days ago when we were in a committee and there were discussions regarding the participation of an independent member of this Chamber on a committee that would elect independent officers for this House, for the Child Advocate and for the Ombudsman. Of course, we know that those offices are filled by people who do not just serve the government or just serve the opposition or just serve

December 6, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 411 the members of the Liberal party. They serve each and every one of us and we have relied on their information in the past. We have relied on it recently, with the issue of Hydra House from the Auditor General, an independent officer who br ought forward a report, kind of did the work of the minister, the now- Minister of Health (Mr. Sale), because he had not done his own investigation that time ago.

So that kind of an affront to democracy, where you have a government who says, "You know what, we have the majority of number of seats so we are going to do whatever we want. We are not going to allow independent members to sit on a committee that they rightfully should have significant input on. We are going to make announcements before they are brought forward, before legislation is brought forward to this Chamber. We are going to do that.

You know, we are going to find out, we are going to sweep investigations, internal investigations in the department, under the rug and then only when we are kind of called into the bright light of a public scrutiny are we going to do anything about it." When you look at the scale and the very, very difficult things that are happening in the Ukraine, they do not compare at all to what is happening in Manitoba. On the broad spectrum, I know the argument that he was trying to make, but I would say to him that, if we truly were going to do something in support of democracy, we would ensure we would support our own.

We would ensure that we did not chip away at the foundation , at the underpinnings, of our own democracy. Certainly, one way to begin with that is respect for the Legislature, to ensure that all members, whether it comes to dealing with independent officers of the Legislature or whether it comes to issues related to Hydra House, have that kind of a voice and there is respect here. Mr. Speaker in the Chair Mr. Speaker, I say to you, as the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) has said from his seat, that it is a slippery slope, and, when you go down that road, you do not know where it is going to lead.

So, just as we, as members of this Legislature, stood up and spoke in unison I would say last week regarding the issue of democracy in the Ukraine, you know, that in itself is important. I would not diminish that for a second. I am glad that all members were able to work together on that issue and to stand as one and say that, yes, we are going to support real democracy and ensure that real elections happen in the Ukraine.

How would it look to them, though, when a week later, we ourselves are chipping away at our own democracy and saying, "This democratic issue really is not important, and, oh, this democratic issue isn't important, and this one is not important," and we just push them all aside? That is essentially what the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton) was saying should be done. The Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) was talking about accountability. I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that accountability and transparency are hand-in-glove.

They go hand in hand when you are talking about democracy a nd when you are talking about the protection of democracy. How can you have a real democratic system if you cannot see the actions of a government, if you cannot view what is happening in a democratic system? Really, at the nub of it is what happened in the whole issue of Hydra House, because we discovered some time later, of course, that the government, the now-Minister of Health (Mr. Sale), the former Minister of Family Services, had been presented with a report that should have sent up the red flags.

It should have sent the alarm bells going all over the Department of Family Services and particularly in the office of the Minister of Health. When the issue was raised by the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), we were assured by the current Minister of Health, the former Minister of Family Services, that everything was taken care of and that we had, really, nothing to worry about. An Honourable Member: Oh, were we wrong. Mr. Goertzen: Well, we were wrong. Now the curtains have been pulled back.

It reminds me, it is the Christmas season, and I know that every Christmas season we are lucky when we turn on our TV to see the Wizard of Oz, one of my favourite movies, and you know, ther e is that scene in the movie, in the Wizard of Oz, where Dorothy and the rest have just come in from the march on the yellow brick road and they see the grand wizard, and he is all full of puffery and remarks, and then they pull back the curtains, and what do they see there when they pull back the curtains? It is a little man pulling levers, and it is all an illusion.

412 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 6, 2004 Now, I have caught the attention for the member of Wellington, of course, who talked about an illusion, right? But that is what is happening here with the government. The curtains have been pulled back, and there is the former Minister of Health, hands on the levers and he was doing his best to cause a smoke screen and to cause a big ruckus. But, in fact, when you see it now for what it is, we should not have had to go and pull back those curtains. We should not have had to go and call in the Auditor General to do the work.

I know there is a lot of things that the Auditor General does that, of course, are done out of necessity, because it is a function that they best perform, but in reality, in this situation, this is something that never had to come to this point. The Auditor General never should have had to use the limited resources of that office to do the investigation on Hydra House. The minister himself, the minister of the day, the current Minister of Health, had the information. He just chose not to act on it. That is certainly one element, Mr.

Speaker, and when I talk today about my grievance about this lack of transparency, lack of democracy, it is only one issue, when we discuss ab out why the Minister of Health did not act on the information that he had in his department. Certainly, that would have been the prudent thing to do.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-3-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 3rd hansardpdf 10.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	df0dbcade55b211dd8556a7a87520e6d211d254b

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