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December 11, 2002

37th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2002-Dec-11 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Wednesday 11 December 2002 Mercredi 11 décembre 2002

APOLOGY

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

MEMBER'S COMMENTS

RECOGNITION OF ACHIEVEMENT

EDUCATION FUNDING

WILLIAM KEACHIE

SCHOOL TEACHERS

EDUCATION FUNDING

JOHN HAYES

EDUCATION FUNDING

SIR SANDFORD FLEMING COLLEGE

VISITORS

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

AN ACT RESPECTING

CANTERBURY UNIVERSITY COLLEGE

SUPPLY ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE CRÉDITS DE 2002

ADULT PROTECTION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LA PROTECTION DES ADULTES

EDIBLE OIL PRODUCTS REPEAL

DATE AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT

LA DATE D'ABROGATION

DE LA

LOI SUR LES PRODUITS

OLÉAGINEUX COMESTIBLES

EDIBLE OIL PRODUCTS REPEAL

DATE AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT

LA DATE D'ABROGATION

DE LA

LOI SUR LES PRODUITS

OLÉAGINEUX COMESTIBLES

EDIBLE OIL PRODUCTS REPEAL

DATE AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT

LA DATE D'ABROGATION

DE LA

LOI SUR LES PRODUITS

OLÉAGINEUX COMESTIBLES

SAFETY OF CHILDREN IN SUPERVISED PLAY SETTINGS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA SÉCURITÉ

DES ENFANTS DANS LES AIRES

DE JEUX SURVEILLÉES

ASSESSMENT AMENDMENT ACT (IMPROVEMENTS FOR SENIORS

AND THE DISABLED), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉVALUATION FONCIÈRE (AMÉLIORATIONS À L'INTENTION

DES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

OU AYANT UNE INCAPACITÉ)

RURAL RED TAPE

REDUCTION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 VISANT À RÉDUIRE

LES FORMALITÉS ADMINISTRATIVES

RELATIVES AUX AFFAIRES RURALES

FREEZE ON HOG FARMS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LE GEL

DES EXPLOITATIONS PORCINES

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AMENDMENT ACT (PRE-TREATMENT OF HAZARDOUS WASTE), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA PROTECTION

DE L'ENVIRONNEMENT

(PRÉTRAITEMENT DES DÉCHETS DANGEREUX)

MOTIONS

COMMITTEE SITTINGS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

RURAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

VISITORS

DEFERRED VOTE

VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS EMPLOYMENT

PROTECTION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA PROTECTION

DE L'EMPLOI DES POMPIERS VOLONTAIRES

ORAL QUESTIONS

EDUCATION FUNDING

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

EDUCATION FUNDING

COMMUNITY COLLEGES

EDUCATION FUNDING

RURAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

HIGHWAY 406

EDUCATION FUNDING

HYDRO REBATES

SAVE THE ROUGE

TFO

MINISTRY OF ENTERPRISE,

OPPORTUNITY AND INNOVATION

PETITIONS

WATER EXTRACTION

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

CAT SCANNER

NATURAL GAS RATES

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO

SAVINGS OFFICE

WATER EXTRACTION

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO

SAVINGS OFFICE

HYDRO RATES

MEDICAL REVIEW COMMITTEE

HYDRO RATES

OPTOMETRISTS

HYDRO ONE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

COLLISION REPAIR

STANDARDS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LES NORMES DE RÉPARATION

EN CAS DE COLLISION

Wednesday 11 December 2002 Mercredi 11 décembre 2002

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

APOLOGY

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Late last evening, in a very intemperate moment, I lashed out at you, and

I wanted to stand in this House and publicly apologize to you, first as a friend and colleague but more importantly as the Speaker of this House and the person charged with keeping order. I was out

of line both to you as a friend and to you as the Speaker, and I hope you will accept my humble apologies.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I appreciate that very much, and I definitely do. You're an honourable member, and I'm pleased to say we're still

friends, if I can still say that. Thank you very much. That was a very, very honourable thing to do.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

MEMBER'S COMMENTS

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): I rise in the House today to highlight the actions of the member from Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant opposite. I have been

appalled by the continuous attacks the member has made on the Grand Erie District School Board for the difficult decisions they were forced to make due to the government's continuous mismanagement

of the education system.

The Grand Erie District School Board also represents the public schools in my riding of Brant, and I have been outraged as the member for Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant

has consistently undermined and blamed the school board but has taken no responsibility for his own government's mismanaged and fatally flawed funding formula that forced the school board to

announce many schools on a closure study list.

The member should look carefully at the Rozanski document. Dr Rozanski clearly outlined that the provincial government's mismanaged, fatally flawed funding

formula has forced many school boards in Ontario to close schools that should never have been closed and should remain open. Dr Rozanski advised the government to increase funding for small rural

schools, just as the Ontario Liberals and others have been advising this government since it created the crisis seven years ago.

The member for Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant was too quick to point fingers at anyone but his own government. Now we see that Dr Rozanski has identified single-school

communities, like those in the riding of the member opposite and in my riding, as having inadequate funds due to the fatally flawed funding formula implemented by the Harris-Eves government. I

challenge the member to accept responsibility on behalf of his own party and apologize for the vicious attacks on that school board.

Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberals have had it right all along about this fatally flawed funding formula. The Ontario Liberals, with our leader, Dalton

McGuinty, have a real plan to fix and improve our publicly funded education system.

Mr Ted Chudleigh (Halton): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: It's a tradition in this place that members' statements is not used to attack

another member of the House. He can express his own opinions about the education funding formula or Dr Rozanski's report, but the attack on another member in this House during members' statements

is against the tradition of this place. I wonder if you might point that out.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I thank the member for the point of order. The member does know that there is a tradition -- we certainly have

slipped a little bit in our tradition? I would ask all members to kindly keep that in mind when we do it. Quite frankly, members' statements didn't used to be very political; they were of issues

affecting the constituency. That also has changed. But I appreciate the member's point of order.

RECOGNITION OF ACHIEVEMENT

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): In keeping with the spirit of the season, I rise to commend two people.

First, Dale Schott, a native of my riding who grew up in Glen Meyer, works as an animator here in Toronto, and his work could very well be viewed by some of our

younger family members. Currently, Dale is a story editor for the animated Moville Mysteries on YTV. Growing in Norfolk, Dale enjoyed doodling and drawing pictures on his friends' muscle cars. It

wasn't until he completed the animation program at Sheridan College that he realized he could turn this hobby into a successful career. Recently, Dale visited his hometown and talked to local

students about his work. I commend Dale for his success, but most importantly I thank him for remembering his rural roots and sharing stories with others.

Secondly, I would like to commend Tom Millar, another resident of my riding, who recently received a Conservation Pioneer Award from the Conservation Authorities

of Ontario. Tom is one of the founding members of the Long Point Foundation for Conservation. Since 1982 he has worked with the foundation, helping to invest more than $980,000 in direct

conservation works. Tom is involved in Ducks Unlimited and many other organizations.

It's nice to see that the work of both Tom Millar and Dale Schott does not go unnoticed.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Michael Bryant (St Paul's): It is with sadness and anger that parents, teachers and students in midtown Toronto St Paul's riding received the

Ontario government's funding formula critique, the Rozanski report. For years now, Ontarians have been telling the Harris-Eves government that there weren't enough teachers, vice-principals,

education assistants, guidance counsellors, special education assistants and resources, transportation, ESL teachers and programs, textbooks, supplies, busing for special-needs students, and the

cancellation of outdoor education and music programs, to name only a few of the education deficits wrought under this government. Just in the last few weeks I've joined parents and teachers across

the riding of St Paul's at schools -- like Hillcrest, Humewood and John Fisher just in December -- to protest these cuts. We were all shaking our heads at the prospect of the grand old North

Toronto Collegiate being razed, re-housed and paved over in a fire sale to make up for the Tory cuts to education.

Ontarians told this government that there wasn't enough, that there were things missing from education because of reckless cuts and reckless underfunding. The

government said, "No, no, you're wrong. Everything is fine. The funding formula is working." It turned out that when your education watchdog took a look at the numbers, you were dead wrong. The

government was dead wrong. Now you say you'll fix it, and nobody trusts that you'll fix it. Nobody trusts this government with public education. Nobody.

WILLIAM KEACHIE

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): I rise today --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. The member for Beaches-East York has the floor.

Mr Prue: I rise today to pay homage to a great man who recently passed away and to send condolences to his family and friends. That great man

was Mr William Keachie. His funeral took place last week here in Toronto. He dedicated a lifetime of service to our community. Right to the end, even though he was 80-plus years old, he delivered

meals every day for Meals on Wheels. He was active in the East York lawn bowling club and was one of the founders and one of the people who continually showed up for the East York seniors' games

and the Ontario Games.

But perhaps people know him best from his work in the Boy Scouts. He was a lifelong Boy Scout for over 50 years. He did remarkable work for the people,

particularly for the young men in the Regent Park-Cabbagetown area, where he was a scoutmaster at what was then St Enoch's church. For generations of young men he helped to make the difference in a

lifetime and in the lifestyle of that particular community.

He certainly had a great influence on my life and I think countless others. We remember him with pride. We remember him with gratitude. To his family and friends

we give our condolences, but we ask them to remember that his contribution will go on and on. Thank you very much, William Keachie.

SCHOOL TEACHERS

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): Yesterday both the Premier and the Minister of Education welcomed the Rozanski report's

recommendations to improve education in Ontario.

I want to tell this House that I have proof that the education system is pretty good right now. That proof is in the work and dedication of a very special

teacher, Mrs Peers. Mrs Peers happens to be the grade 1 teacher of my grandson Cameron at Donwood Park Junior Public School in my riding of Scarborough Centre. I prefer to refer to Mrs Peers as a

professional educator. She is a mother and a Girl Guides leader and is actively involved in all aspects of community life. Above all, she puts kids first.

Recently, Cameron came home with his first report card. I don't particularly want to be a bragging grandma, but he did very well. More importantly, he enjoys

school, largely because of his excellent teacher. He sings in the choir, he's learning how to play the piano and he will be enthusiastically participating in his first Christmas concert next

week.

I want to salute the efforts of all hard-working teachers in Ontario who, like Mrs Peers, give their all so that our children and our grandchildren will have

bright futures.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): The recently released report of University of Guelph president Mordechai Rozanski has exposed the damaging

effect of massive cuts to education in Ontario since 1995 and has pointed the way to a solution to this mess.

According to the Eves government's own formula, there are 15,000 fewer teachers in the classrooms now than there should have been using the 1991 formula.

The Rozanski report is just the latest of several warnings given to the government about the damage that would be felt by underfunding the education system,

including a lack of adequate books and other educational tools, an inadequate number of teachers, the closing of schools based upon far too restrictive guidelines, the disappearance of secretarial

and custodial staff, the deterioration of existing buildings and the deletion of vice-principal positions. Transportation has been severely stressed for the past seven years as well.

The dire need for vast improvements for the support of special education has been brought to the government's attention by the opposition time after time, only

to be greeted with accusations of scaremongering by successive education ministers and Premiers.

Now, yet another independent voice has called for an infusion of $250 million for special education to meet this obvious need. What Dr Rozanski has recommended

is not new to the government. It is clear that many of his recommendations should have been implemented long ago.

This is an investment in education that is required. Dr Rozanski is an independent voice. Take action now.

JOHN HAYES

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton Centre): As we draw nearer to the festive holiday season, it is my pleasure to salute and give special thanks to a

long-time organizer of the Brampton Santa Claus parade and friend, John Hayes.

John is semi-retiring this year as co-chair of the magical nighttime parade after a successful run of nine years. He was honoured at a special awards ceremony in

Brampton recently for his leadership, dedication and hard work. He may be giving up the co-chair title, but he assures everyone that he'll be around to assist in more parades to come.

Organized by the Brampton Board of Trade, with the sponsorship of the Brampton Rotary Club, the parade has grown from a few thousand parade watchers in 1985 to

the nighttime illuminated grand spectacle it is today. Over 100,000 people lined the streets this year to see 95 festively decorated floats and bands. It is the largest Santa Claus parade in

Ontario outside of Toronto. Children personally deliver their wish lists to Santa's elves.

I applaud all the dedicated volunteers, such as the Brampton District Jaycees, who have helped marshal the parade since its inception 18 years ago. I'm proud to

have been the founding chair of the Brampton Santa Claus parade, and I'm very proud to see the tradition that John Hayes carried on as the chair of that committee in making it the most successful

parade in Ontario.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Joseph Cordiano (York South-Weston): The Rozanski report confirms all of our worst fears and those of parents and students out there: the

fact that they have been getting shortchanged by this government for many, many years when it comes to education -- severe underfunding -- and it has led to the closure of many schools.

In my riding, the York Adult Day School is scheduled to be closed in January. Those 600 students, many of whom were here the other day, will have nowhere to go,

because there are waiting lists at the remaining schools. There are waiting lists, and they are operating at full capacity, so they have nowhere to go. Six hundred students simply cannot continue

their education, a second chance for most of these students. Single moms, parents who are struggling to make ends meet, who have kids in school themselves, need to continue with their education.

What does this government say? They are turning their backs on those people who should be getting help to help themselves and help their families. This government turns its back and doesn't want to

have anything to do with it.

Frankly, the Rozanski report confirms the fact that this government has shut the door when it comes to education, and adult education in particular. They have

closed the door on all those people: new Canadians, single mothers. They really don't care about their concerns. They really have shut the door on them. Shame on you, government.

SIR SANDFORD FLEMING COLLEGE

Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): I'd like to take this opportunity to relate a good-news story from my riding of Peterborough. Our community

college, Sir Sandford Fleming College, and its board of governors took a substantial risk this year in running an operating deficit for the first time in the history of the college. They took this

risk in order to mount new programs and to expand additional sections in established programs in order to fulfill access obligations. Some of the new programs are computer security and

investigations, pre-service firefighting and practical nursing.

Also, the college believed there would be a greater demand this past fall from students who are fast-tracking. This belief was confirmed, as first-year enrolment

increased by 14.8% and winter intake registrations are presently running 40.8% ahead of registrations at this time last year.

I'd like to congratulate Sir Sandford Fleming's president, Brian Desbiens, its board of directors and its employees. The substantial risk in running an operating

deficit paid dividends for the college, its students and our government. Everyone is a winner. Our government's recent announcement of a $500,000 increase in operating grants benefits Fleming

college because it will assist them in closing their operating deficit for 2002-03, and the entire student body will benefit greatly from the added programs and increased access.

I feel this is a great example of the college and our government working together to provide excellent post-secondary education opportunities for the citizens of

this great province.

VISITORS

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to introduce, in the west gallery today, some very special citizens from

Brantford, Mr George and Mrs Evelyn Stapleton, and from Paris, Mr Doug and Mrs Eva Brockbank, who have joined us today in an event that raised money for our hospital system in Brantford and Paris.

I want to thank them for participating. They got to see what's going on in our democracy and they are waiting with bated breath for question period.

I want to thank them for being here, and we welcome them.

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to welcome some very important visitors from

eastern Ontario. They are from my own area: my brother-in-law Michel Charron and his wife, Madeleine, Colette Sarazin and Madeleine Hurtubise, who are here with us today. Welcome to Queen's

Park.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): On a point of order, Speaker: I'd like to welcome to the House the assembled chiefs of the Mushkegowuck

council. We have with us today Chief Leo Friday from Kashachewan. We also have with us the chief and deputy chief from Moose Factory, Norm Hardisty and Charlie Cheechoo. We have with us as well

chiefs from the assembled communities of Fort Albany and deputy chiefs from different communities.

This is a bit of an historic occasion: we'll be meeting later on this afternoon with various ministers of the crown, and we're looking forward to this

opportunity for the chiefs to meet with the the cabinet ministers. I'd like to welcome them to this assembly.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Welcome to our guests.

Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I wish to welcome those of the Firefighters Association of Ontario who are

here today as well. Please join me in welcoming them.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I beg to inform the House that today the Clerk received the 13th report of the standing committee on government

agencies. Pursuant to standing order 106(e), the report is deemed to be adopted by the House.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): I beg leave to present a report from the standing committee on regulations and private bills and move

its adoption.

Clerk at the Table (Mr Todd Decker): Your committee begs to report the following bill as amended:

Bill Pr17,

An Act respecting the Reena Foundation.

Your committee further recommends that the fees and the actual cost of printing at all stages be remitted on Bill Pr17,

An Act respecting the Reena

Foundation.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Shall the report be received and adopted? Agreed.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

AN ACT RESPECTING

CANTERBURY UNIVERSITY COLLEGE

Mrs Pupatello moved first reading of the following bill:

An Act respecting Canterbury University College.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor West): Canterbury College, the applicant, has applied for special legislation to alter its organizational and

administrative structures, and to change its name to Canterbury University College.

SUPPLY ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE CRÉDITS DE 2002

Mrs Ecker moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 229,

An Act to authorize the payment of certain amounts for the public service for the fiscal year ending on March 31, 2003 / Projet de loi 229, Loi

autorisant le paiement de certaines sommes destinées à la fonction publique pour l'exercice se terminant le 31 mars 2003.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

ADULT PROTECTION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LA PROTECTION DES ADULTES

Mr Bartolucci moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 230,

An Act to protect adults from abuse and neglect / Projet de loi 230, Loi visant à protéger les adultes contre la maltraitance et la

négligence.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): This Adult Protection Act provides for the appointment of the director of the adult protection office to provide

protection for abused and neglected adults who are unable to protect themselves from abuse or neglect due to physical or mental disability or infirmity.

The bill provides for mandatory reporting of adult abuse or neglect to the director of the adult protection office and requires the director to make inquiries

with respect to all such reports.

An abused adult is an adult who is either a victim of abuse on the premises where he or she resides, is incapable of protecting himself or herself from abuse

by reason of physical or mental disability or infirmity, and refuses, delays or is unable to make provision for his or her protection from abuse.

Abuse means one or more of the following: physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, medication abuse, financial abuse or abuse of the person's rights and

freedoms.

I move this and hope that the House adopts it quickly.

EDIBLE OIL PRODUCTS REPEAL

DATE AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT

LA DATE D'ABROGATION

DE LA

LOI SUR LES PRODUITS

OLÉAGINEUX COMESTIBLES

Mrs Johns moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 231,

An Act to amend the repeal date of the Edible Oil Products Act / Projet de loi 231, Loi modifiant la date d'abrogation de la

Loi sur les produits

oléagineux comestibles.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The minister for a short statement?

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): This amendment I am tabling today is a result of a great deal of consultation with many

key individuals over the last few weeks, days and even hours. On the industry side, the Dairy Farmers of Ontario and the Ontario soy bean growers worked hard with producers and processors across

the province. I want to thank them for their help and contribution in reaching this consensus position. Here in the House I want to acknowledge the agriculture critic, Steve Peters, and my

wonderful friend the House leader for the NDP, from Welland, and I want to thank you very much for the work you've done to help me get a consensus in the House today.

At this time I believe I have, and would like to ask for unanimous consent to move both second and third readings of this bill.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

EDIBLE OIL PRODUCTS REPEAL

DATE AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT

LA DATE D'ABROGATION

DE LA

LOI SUR LES PRODUITS

OLÉAGINEUX COMESTIBLES

Mrs Johns moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 231,

An Act to amend the repeal date of the Edible Oil Products Act / Projet de loi 231, Loi modifiant la date d'abrogation de la

Loi sur les produits

oléagineux comestibles.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

EDIBLE OIL PRODUCTS REPEAL

DATE AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT

LA DATE D'ABROGATION

DE LA

LOI SUR LES PRODUITS

OLÉAGINEUX COMESTIBLES

Mrs Johns moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 231,

An Act to amend the repeal date of the Edible Oil Products Act / Projet de loi 231, Loi modifiant la date d'abrogation de la

Loi sur les produits

oléagineux comestibles.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

SAFETY OF CHILDREN IN SUPERVISED PLAY SETTINGS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA SÉCURITÉ

DES ENFANTS DANS LES AIRES

DE JEUX SURVEILLÉES

Mrs McLeod moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 232,

An Act to enhance the safety of children in supervised play settings / Projet de loi 232, Loi visant à accroître la sécurité des

enfants dans les aires de jeux surveillées.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr ): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): The purpose of this bill is to give cabinet the authority to establish minimum standards for the safety

of children who are left is supervised play settings which are not now governed by any kind of regulation.

ASSESSMENT AMENDMENT ACT (IMPROVEMENTS FOR SENIORS

AND THE DISABLED), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉVALUATION FONCIÈRE (AMÉLIORATIONS À L'INTENTION

DES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

OU AYANT UNE INCAPACITÉ)

Mr Christopherson moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 233,

An Act to amend the Assessment Act to more fairly permit exemptions from assessment to benefit senior citizens and disabled persons / Projet de loi

233, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'évaluation foncière pour rendre l'exemption d'impôt plus équitable à l'égard des personnes âgées ou ayant une

incapacité.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): I would like to thank Reg Michor for his significant help in drafting this bill. Reg has worked

tirelessly for many years to improve the situation for the disabled who choose to live independently. There is widespread support for this bill. The need to enable more families to benefit from

this kind of legislation is timely and, in my opinion, worthy of government consideration.

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I haven't seen the bill and I

don't know the contents of the bill, but I would just ask that you review the bill for its orderliness with respect to the cost components to the financial base of the province of Ontario. I'm not

saying I'm against the bill or in favour; I just need to know whether it's in fact in order.

The Speaker: We do that on all bills and will on this one as well.

RURAL RED TAPE

REDUCTION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 VISANT À RÉDUIRE

LES FORMALITÉS ADMINISTRATIVES

RELATIVES AUX AFFAIRES RURALES

Mr Coburn moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 234,

An Act to reduce red tape with respect to rural and other matters / Projet de loi 234, Loi visant à réduire les formalités

administratives relatives aux affaires rurales et à d'autres questions.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

FREEZE ON HOG FARMS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LE GEL

DES EXPLOITATIONS PORCINES

Mr Lalonde moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 235,

An Act to prohibit municipalities from issuing building permits in respect of hog farms / Projet de loi 235, Loi interdisant aux municipalités

de délivrer des permis de construire en ce qui concerne les exploitations porcines.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it. Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): The bill prohibits municipalities from issuing building permits for the construction or

expansion of hog farms until after December 31, 2003. Now that we know the health effect that hog manure could create and also since Quebec has a moratorium on all expansion and new construction of

hog farms in 281 municipalities, this bill will give power to municipalities to turn down all applications or new construction until all regulations of the Nutrient Management Act are in place.

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AMENDMENT ACT (PRE-TREATMENT OF HAZARDOUS WASTE), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA PROTECTION

DE L'ENVIRONNEMENT

(PRÉTRAITEMENT DES DÉCHETS DANGEREUX)

Ms Di Cocco moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 236,

An Act to amend the Environmental Protection Act to require the pre-treatment of hazardous waste before it is used as landfill / Projet de loi 236,

Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection de l'environnement pour exiger le prétraitement des déchets dangereux avant leur dépôt dans une décharge.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton): This bill will change the fact that Ontario is the only jurisdiction on the continent of North America

that does not require pre-treatment of hazardous waste before disposal. The bill amends the Environmental Protection Act by requiring the pre-treatment of hazardous waste before it is disposed of

in a landfill.

MOTIONS

COMMITTEE SITTINGS

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): I move that the standing committee on public accounts be

authorized to meet for up to 12 days during the upcoming recess to complete report writing and to conduct its review of the 2002 annual report of the Provincial Auditor of Ontario. The committee

shall also be authorized to release its report by depositing a copy of any report with the Clerk of the House.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

RURAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

Hon Brian Coburn (Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): It gives me great pleasure this afternoon to introduce a bill that, if

passed, will encourage economic growth, improve the environment for investment, and reduce red tape and remove barriers to jobs in rural Ontario.

The Rural Red Tape Reduction Act, 2002, amends provincial legislation to remove impediments to rural business development. These amendments respond to key

issues and priorities identified by rural businesses, which the government has consulted with over the past two years.

The extent of these consultations demonstrates our strong commitment to rural Ontario. The latest of these was last June, when Premier Eves and Minister Johns

held round tables with agriculture and food industries to establish key priorities to strengthen rural businesses. In the fall of 2001, the Red Tape Commission held consultations with 600 small

business owners in 20 communities. In the summer of 2001, when I was the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, I hosted a series of small business round tables across Ontario as a

follow-up to a report a year earlier of the task force on rural economic renewal, headed by the Honourable Doug Galt.

As a result of these consultations, we have developed a red tape reduction plan that recognizes the unique challenges facing rural communities. This bill is an

important part of that plan.

Let me mention just a few of the highlights. The Rural Red Tape Reduction Act, 2002, includes measures to enhance self-governance of veterinarians, and if

passed, it would give increased flexibility to farm implement dealers, distributors and manufacturers. This bill also provides amendments for the Co-operative Corporations Act to help improve the

administration of co-operatives.

Ontario's rural communities are indeed a key part of the fabric of Ontario's economy and of our society. We recognize that our smaller and rural communities

often face different challenges and opportunities than the urban areas. Yet they should have access to the same types of opportunities for economic growth as our larger urban centres.

The Rural Red Tape Reduction Act, 2002, is one component of a wider initiative to build sustainable businesses and stronger rural communities, giving them

equality of opportunity. It's part of our government's comprehensive plan to strengthen rural communities and to create a better quality of life for everyone in our province.

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): It was quite interesting to listen to the comments of the minister for rural affairs during the

introduction to this bill. I guess my first opening comment would be: if these issues were so important to this government, why did they wait until the very last minute, as this Legislature is

about to rise, and then introduce these changes? This is last-minute.

You look at this bill; we could have been dealing with these things much earlier. In the fall of 2001 the consultations took place for rural areas. The farm

implements bill was introduced by Toby Barrett in the fall of 2001. Bill 87 and the amendments we just dealt with today with the repeal of the Edible Oil Products Act -- again one year ago. Here we

are, one year later.

This is a government that has had seven years to address issues facing rural Ontario, and for the most part they've dragged their feet. They've left rural

Ontario behind. They've downloaded an undue amount of programs to rural municipalities. Rural municipalities are facing a real challenge right now, and here we are, at the very last minute,

probably going to see closure on this bill to ram these things through the Legislature.

It is sad that this is a government that, when it comes to rural and agricultural issues, drags its feet. We can see that these issues were here over a year

ago. They dragged their feet, they sat on issues, these consultations, so that here we are at the last minute dealing with the edible oils act, and these consultations should have taken place last

year. But here we are, at the last minute.

The minister talks about the consultations in the past two weeks. I'd be very curious to see what the phone lines have been like over the last 24 hours,

because these consultations should have been done a long time ago. I'm proud that the Liberal Party recognized early on that we needed to light a fire under this government, and we did that

yesterday by introducing the amendment. They needed a fire lit under them. They hadn't moved.

The minister talks about rural economic development. One thing that's not addressed in the bill we have here is the whole question of taxation in rural

Ontario. It is a huge issue. As the Ministry of Agriculture and the ministry of rural affairs, you've encouraged farmers to add value to what they do on their farms. Then the farmers go and add

value to their farms, be it a fruit winery or a maple syrup operation, and then, because of the rise of their municipal taxes, they're questioning why they were encouraged by this government to do

that. There's nothing in this legislation that I can see in a cursory review that in any way addresses some of the taxation issues that are facing the agricultural community in rural Ontario right

now. Look at what's happening with assessments across this province right now. Who is taking the biggest brunt of assessment shifts in this province? It's agriculture. There's nothing in here to

deal with that on behalf of the farmers.

Some of the changes in here dealing with food safety legislation: the question of biosecurity needs to be strictly enforced. We need to ensure too, though, as

far food safety is concerned -- we've seen the cuts that have happened in the animal health lab at the University of Guelph. The animal health lab is our first line of defence. We just heard

recently from the Minister of Health that tests that had to be undertaken had to be sent out of the province. Had this government adequately funded the University of Guelph and the animal health

lab, those tests could have been done right here in our own backyard and sent to another province.

Contained in this bill too -- I don't have a problem with it -- is the correction of Mr Murdoch's tartan bill. It's interesting that we had the wrong colour.

Then what else was slid into this? Again, you're famous for your omnibus bills: something else with the 407, because you messed it up when you sold it. You gouged the taxpayers of this province

when you sold the 407 and, again, you're going to benefit your friends Al Leach and SNC-Lavalin. You sold out the taxpayers. You told the taxpayers of this province, "Don't worry, we're going to

hold the line on tolls. Nothing is going to happen with tolls." We've seen tolls skyrocket and go through the roof. So you've obviously messed up again with Highway 407.

But there's one thing I hope you have done. This is to allow you to have access to hydro corridors. I hope you put a provision in this bill that Hydro One

vehicles aren't going to have to pay tolls on the 407, but I bet you didn't do that and we're going to have to pay tolls on the 407.

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): I'm pleased to respond to what the government calls the Rural Red Tape Reduction Act. I note that one

of the major parts of this bill will be to amend the description of the first block of colour in the tartan of the province of Ontario. I wonder what that has to do with rural economic development.

Has this government got a plan to turn every village and small community in rural Ontario into a tartan demonstration centre or something?

The government wants people in rural Ontario to believe that this bill is somehow addressing their issues. I don't see anything in here about electricity and

the government's plan -- scheme -- to sell off 49% of the transmission system in the middle of the night, something which virtually everyone in rural Ontario is absolutely opposed to, because they

know that once you sell 49% to a private company, the private company will want to raise the rates to make more profit, which means the hydro bill goes up. I don't see anything in here which is

going to explain to people in rural Ontario why, even after the pre-election rate caps come into place, they're going to continue to pay more to Hydro for hydro distribution and more for hydro

transmission and why, under this government's scheme, they're going to pay more of the GST and why they're going to pay more to IMO and why they're going to pay more for expensive imported power.

None of these issues are addressed in this bill.

When I was travelling across rural Ontario in the public power bus, a lot of people in rural Ontario wanted to talk to me about the local school, because under

this government's agenda the local school, in many cases, is being closed. Is there anything in this bill that's going to deal with the closure of small schools in rural Ontario, cutting the heart

out of the community? Nothing -- it's about tartans. This, according to the Conservative government, is the burning issue in rural Ontario today. I suppose maybe there are a few people who might be

concerned about a tartan, but the people I talk to want to know about the community school. How do you sustain the community when the government wants to close the community school?

The other point they raised was, how do you operate the local community health centre or the hospital when you don't have enough nurses any more and when you

can't get a doctor? Is there anything in this bill about that? No, it's about tartans.

So the burning issues in rural Ontario: what about those high electricity prices? Nothing. The second burning issue: what about our community school and the

fact it's going to be closed? Nothing. The third burning issue: how do we get a family doctor and some nurses to work in the local health centre? Nothing. I gather, according to this government,

the people of rural Ontario are all supposed to wear tartans and that'll fix the problem.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): I rise on one final issue on this bill. It is indeed an omnibus bill, because most of what it contains

does not involve the rural community but in fact all of Ontario. I speak especially about the 407. Here we have in this bill the authority to put transmission lines across the 407, but what it does

not contain in this bill is all the problems related to the ordinary commuters who use the 407 every day, ordinary commuters who cannot get their transponders repaired, ordinary commuters who

cannot get anyone to answer the telephone when they have a problem, ordinary commuters who are starting to pay far too much for the privilege of riding on that road, ordinary commuters who cannot

have any action with that corporation at all -- a corporation that is absolutely aloof, that is only good at one thing, and that is taking their money and not providing the services they should. It

seems very good that we can put some electricity transmission lines across the road; what this government should be doing is putting some phone lines into the office and putting some people on

those phones so that they're answered and so that the commuters can actually get some use out of that road.

VISITORS

Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to let everyone in the House, all of my colleagues, know that I'm

joined today by two people in the public gallery who are very important to me. They will be leaving before question period. This is my six-year-old daughter, Aynsley, and my four-year-old son,

Spencer.

Hon Jerry J. Ouellette (Minister of Natural Resources): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would like to introduce the staff and students from

a school in my riding. They've come here today from Monsignor John Pereyma to watch the proceedings in the House today, and I welcome them.

Hon Brian Coburn (Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I would ask my colleagues to join me in welcoming Mr Keith Butte here

today, who is the father of our page Nicholas Butte, from the great riding of Ottawa-Orléans, in the east gallery.

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I think everyone can tell that it's our Christmas party

on this side of the House. I have my niece here, Danielle Hosick.

DEFERRED VOTE

VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS EMPLOYMENT

PROTECTION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA PROTECTION

DE L'EMPLOI DES POMPIERS VOLONTAIRES

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 30,

An Act to amend the Fire Protection and Prevention Act, 1997 in order to protect the employment of

volunteer firefighters / Projet de loi 30, Loi modifiant la Loi de 1997 sur la prévention et la protection contre l'incendie afin de protéger l'emploi des pompiers volontaires.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1421 to 1426.

The Speaker: Just so that everybody is clear, all those who are in favour will please rise and remain standing until they've been checked by

the Clerk. So please rise and remaining standing if you're in favour of it.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Beaubien, Marcel

Boyer, Claudette

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Conway, Sean G.

DeFaria, Carl

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Hardeman, Ernie

Hodgson, Chris

Hudak, Tim

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Klees, Frank

Marland, Margaret

Maves, Bart

McMeekin, Ted

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Murdoch, Bill

O'Toole, John

Sampson, Rob

Snobelen, John

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Turnbull, David

Wilson, Jim

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise and remain standing until recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Agostino, Dominic

Bartolucci, Rick

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Bradley, James J.

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Christopherson, David

Churley, Marilyn

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Cunningham, Dianne

Curling, Alvin

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Gerretsen, John

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hampton, Howard

Hastings, John

Hoy, Pat

Jackson, Cameron

Kennedy, Gerard

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Levac, David

Martel, shelley

Martin, Tony

Martiniuk, Gerry

Mazzilli, Frank

McGuinty, Dalton

McLeod, Lyn

Newman, Dan

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Parsons, Ernie

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Ruprecht, Tony

Sergio, Mario

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Greg

Tsubouchi, David H.

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 37; the nays are 52.

The Speaker: I declare the motion lost.

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): On a point of order, Speaker: I seek unanimous consent to instruct the Minister of Public Safety and Security to strike

a task force by all the stakeholders in order to continue the debate, as was asked for.

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I understand the request. I don't

think it will be accepted on this side, because I don't think we'll act as political cover either.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I would ask if I could have co-operation so I can hear what the results are.

Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

ORAL QUESTIONS

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Education. Madam Minister, yesterday Dr Rozanski pulled the

rug out from under your credibility, the Premier's credibility and your government's credibility on public education. He confirmed and he validated everything that parents and students and teachers

and entire communities have been saying for seven long and painful years, and that is that your cuts have compromised our kids' education.

In Kingston, Peterborough, Windsor, London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Niagara Falls, Ottawa -- everywhere you turn -- programs that help our kids succeed were

underfunded by you and your government. For seven long years, Madam Minister, you or your predecessors have defended Ernie Eves's cuts to education, whether he made those in his capacity as Premier

or as Minister of Finance. The question I have for you is, why should Ontario families, parents and students trust you, given your lengthy and abysmal record when it comes to public education in

Ontario?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): Unfortunately, the Leader of the Opposition gets it all wrong. Yesterday, Dr

Rozanski validated the funding formula that we had put in place. He said it is achieving the equity, the stability and the fairness for students in all parts of the province. He said that nobody

wants to go back to the way it was. It was a clear, strong word of support for what we have undertaken.

We have been the only government, since 1995, with a plan, a plan to make sure that the students in the province of Ontario achieve success, a plan to do

testing, a plan for safe schools, and you as Johnny-come-latelys just recently indicate that you think it's a good idea.

Mr McGuinty: I just can't understand how you can stand there and say that with a straight face. I don't understand it. For year after year

after year, you or your predecessors have denied that your government's cuts have hurt our kids. You have blamed teachers, you have blamed the trustees, you have even blamed previous

governments.

But Dr Rozanski has been the jury on this matter, and the jury is in. He's telling us that your cuts have compromised our kids' education. He says at the end

of the day it was you who closed our schools, it was you who cut special education, it was you who refused to adequately fund textbooks and busing and school repairs. You did all of that and

Ontario kids have paid a terrible price as a result. Now you say you want to fix things. Now you say you want to help students. Now you're experiencing some kind of death-bed repentance as you

stare into the face of the next election.

I ask you again, Madam Minister, why should parents, why should students, why should those people in this province committed to public education trust you with

the future of their schools?

Hon Mrs Witmer: This is unbelievable. I am more convinced than ever today, after the report that was handed to us by Dr Rozanski, that the

proposals we have put in place to help our students achieve success are the right ones. I can tell you categorically, despite what you're saying, that Dr Rozanski has validated in every way he

possibly could that what we're doing is right for the students in this province. Unlike you, I might add; what did you say?

Interjection: What did he say when?

Hon Mrs Witmer: In 1998 you said, "I don't want to talk about standards. I've got a proposal: provide an independent review of the funding

formula." So we do it. What did you say yesterday? "Well, people want to know where I stand on public education." Question: "You're committed to everything in the report?" "No, I didn't say

that."

Mr McGuinty: This is just too rich. This is surely a performance worthy of an Oscar nomination, if not a win. What is most disconcerting is

that this minister still refuses to acknowledge the truth: that she and her predecessors and this Premier and this government stand in the way of our children getting a quality education in

kids' guidance counsellors, their education assistants, their psychologists, their phys-ed teachers, their librarians. For seven long years you have been successfully robbing our children of the

quality education that we believe they are entitled to inside our public schools.

Madam Minister, since you lack both, I want to assure you that we've got both the plan and the commitment to get the job done. I'm asking you, Madam Minister,

when are you going to get a plan and when are you going to develop the commitment to stand up for public education?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I might ask of the leader opposite, what edition of his plan is he showing us today? And what edition will he show us

tomorrow? Our government introduced the changes in education to make sure that all students in this province have the opportunity to achieve success. We introduced the student funding formula. We

have now had a review by an independent reviewer. There is confirmation that we are on the right track. We need to update the benchmarks and we plan to do that. In fact, the Premier right now, as I

speak, is making an announcement to demonstrate that we are taking immediate action.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): New question.

Mr McGuinty: I think we've heard more than enough from that minister. I'll go to the Minister of Finance. Minister, as you will recall, at

first you opposed funding private schools, saying they would fragment our education system and would take millions of dollars out of our public schools; I'm sure you will remember that. You then

flip-flopped and said that you supported giving public dollars to private schools.

During the leadership campaign, Ernie Eves called the private school tax credit ludicrous. He then flip-flopped and said he strongly supported putting hundreds

of millions of public dollars into private schools. Yesterday, the Premier and the Minister of Education opened the door once again to flip-flopping and told us it might be true that they're in

fact prepared to consider changing their minds. I'm asking you, Madam Minister, as the person responsible for this issue ultimately, are you now going to do the right thing and cancel your

intention to put half a billion dollars in private schools?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Finance): On this side of the House, this government believes in respecting parental choice. I know the Liberals,

who say they respect parental choice -- for them it's only parental choice that they approve of. Well, on this side of the House, we have a little more respect for the parents in this province and

how they wish to raise their children.

Mr McGuinty: I guess you simply can't recollect what you said in your capacity as Minister of Education. In your letter to the United Nations,

very public for all to see, you said that to fund private schools again would fragment the public education system and would take millions of dollars out of our public schools, where the money was

needed. That's what you said.

Now, in your capacity as Minister of Finance, I suggest that you start getting real. You are facing enormous fiscal challenges. Health care is going to demand

significantly more investment. As Dr Rozanski reminded you yesterday, public education is in need of significantly more investment. You are so desperate for cash that you are starting to sell off

the Ontario family silverware. You're selling off Hydro One, POSO, Ontario Northland, Teranet. With all these tremendous financial pressures, tell me why you still continue to maintain that it is

wise, prudent and fiscally responsible to put half a billion dollars into private schools.

Hon Mrs Ecker: I and my colleagues would not support something that would take money out of our public school system, and we've been very

consistent on that. As a matter of fact, I put more money in, as the Minister of Education. The current Minister of Education is putting more money in. Even as we speak, the Premier of Ontario is

announcing new investments into our public education. I know the honourable member across the way has problems with that, but we think those investments in public education are very, very

important.

Mr McGuinty: Here is the fundamental difference between this government today and our government tomorrow: we are committed to public

education for all Ontario children. We are committed to repairing the damage that you have caused to our public schools. We will not settle for test scores where one half of our kids are failing to

meet the basic standards in reading, writing and mathematics. We will not force small schools to close. We will not tell kids in need of special education to get to the back of a waiting list some

40,000 long. On my watch, I can tell you that if there's any money at all available for education in the province of Ontario, we will not put that money into private schools. We will invest it

where it's needed: inside public schools. We are going to stand up for public education.

I ask you, Madam Minister, when are you and the Minister of Education and this government going to start to stand up for public schools?

Hon Mrs Ecker: The honourable member across the way says he will not settle for students not doing well on tests. Well, they didn't agree with

student testing. They didn't want student testing. So how were they going to know if our students were actually learning what they were supposed to learn?

On this side of the House, we respect parental choice. We believe in setting high standards for our kids and helping them meet those standards. We believe in

putting new investments in the public education system. We believe in doing what we said we would do for the people in Ontario: lower taxes, balanced budgets, new investments in our schools and in

our hospitals. We are following our plan because it works: one million net new jobs in this province for Ontario's families, new investments in schools, new investments in hospitals, $14 billion in

tax relief. We're going to follow our plan --

The Speaker: The minister's time is up. New question.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I have a question for the Minister of Education. Minister, your government's chronic shortchanging of

students and schools has been exposed. Dr Rozanski says the trustees in Toronto, Hamilton and Ottawa got it right and you got it wrong. They've told you all along that there isn't enough money in

the funding formula for Ontario's schools, so your government should put the brakes on any cuts that are planned now at these boards and you should send your supervisors packing today. Will you

blunt the axe of your hatchet men by reinstating the public school trustees who were democratically elected by the citizens of this province to do their job?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I appreciate the message from the member opposite, but what the member needs to understand is that for five years the trustees

on the board in Toronto, if you want to use it as an example, unfortunately did not take the steps that were necessary to make sure there was equity of funding to all students in Toronto, no matter

where they lived. Unfortunately, they have put the board in a very difficult financial situation.

Fortunately, the supervisor has put the Toronto board back on the road to sustainable financial health. I would only hope as well that there will be equitable

funding provided for students at the end of the day, whether they are in Scarborough or in Etobicoke or in York or in downtown Toronto.

The Speaker: Supplementary.

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): Deputy Premier, your government said our trustees got it wrong. You said there was enough money for

our schools. But Dr Rozanski said the trustees in Hamilton got it right. For four years you've been shortchanging salaries for teachers and support staff. For four years you've been shortchanging

special education. For four years you've been shortchanging transportation and textbooks. For four years you've been shortchanging our students.

Minister, will you now stand in your place, admit you got it wrong and reinstate the Hamilton trustees who Dr Rozanski said got it right by refusing to cut any

more money from Hamilton's education system?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Unfortunately, Dr Rozanski said no such thing, because Dr Rozanski was not dealing with Ottawa, he wasn't dealing with Toronto

and he wasn't dealing with Hamilton. He was dealing with all of the students in the province of Ontario, and he wanted to make sure the funding formula that was put in place in 1998 was providing

equitable, fair funding to all students, no matter where they lived.

I would just remind the member that in Hamilton there are many who say the budget could have been balanced, but as you know, they didn't even consider the

balanced budget proposals that came forward. They had the chance; they chose not even to look at them.

The Speaker: Final supplementary.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): I hope the minister understands that Toronto, Ottawa and Hamilton are all in Ontario, and the people who

live in those cities care very much about what is happening to their students. We care very much about our democratic traditions and we care very much about the people we elected to go out there

and fight for our students. We are asking you today to put them back into their jobs. We are asking you today to do the right thing and to get rid of the undemocratic supervisors you've put there.

If the problem has been solved by Dr Rozanski, then surely the people should be put back in charge.

It's very clear, Madam Minister, that your policies are wrong. The parents and the people of this province want their democratically elected people back in

their place. Will you promise today to put them back in their place? Will you promise today to give them sufficient funds to keep our outdoor education centres open, our school secretaries hired

and our youth counsellors on the job for the students of our cities?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Despite what the member opposite may say, there are many throughout the province of Ontario who have been very supportive of

the direction that has been undertaken by the supervisors. They are very pleased that these boards have been put on the road to financial health, that there is a plan of action.

I think it's also very important to remember, yes, we have students in Hamilton, Ottawa, and Toronto, but we also have students in Thunder Bay, in Timmins, in

Brockville and in Windsor. This review was all about making sure that no matter where you lived, you had to the same access to the same programs and the same services.

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): My question is for the Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services. Last spring, you raised the

hopes of the 192,000 people who are forced to live in poverty because your government has frozen Ontario disability support payments for more than seven years. You promised to review the program

and suggested that you believed they needed a raise. Six months later, we've heard nothing from you. That's six more months of poverty. You have had more than enough time. The disabled of this

province have been more than patient. They want an answer today. Are you going to raise the ODSP payments?

Hon Brenda Elliott (Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services): I thank my colleague across the way for the question. We on this

side of the House have been very diligent in undertaking efforts to improve the lives of those who are disabled here in Ontario. My colleague has asked me this issue here a number of times in the

House and I have to come back to him each time with this reminder: it's our government, following five years of disastrous government, with him as part of that whole debacle, that finally took a

close look at the welfare system in the province of Ontario, the province where we saw 1.3 million people slide into welfare and the endless despair that that would bring if nothing changed.

Not only did we reform the welfare system but we also, for the first time, took those who were suffering with disabilities into a whole new plan that set them

apart, that gave them an opportunity to partake in different benefits and also to become much more familiar with the whole concept of not just being disabled but having an opportunity to move into

jobs and to be in equal employment.

Mr Martin: Minister, I want you to read my lips here. This is a simple yes or no question. Are you or are you not going to raise the ODSP

payments?

Hon Mrs Elliott: I have indicated that we are certainly interested in doing more for those who are disabled in the province of Ontario, and I

remind my colleague across the way that we have already done much more for those who are disabled in the province of Ontario. We took them out of the welfare trap. We added a number of different

benefits and programs that had never been there before. We removed the label of permanently unemployed. We required that those who are disabled no longer had to go through that endless

reconfirmation of their disability when that disability was not expected to improve; more generous and flexible rules for families and friends to help them with the cost of gifts and inheritances;

increased asset limits, coupled with improved policies.

I can read through the whole list of things that are done here as part of the improvements for the Ontario disability support plan. Suffice to say that we have

made a number of changes and we anticipate making more in the future.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr David Caplan (Don Valley East): I have a question for the Minister of Education. Yesterday Dr Rozanski issued a stinging indictment of your

mismanagement of education. Your rhetoric about directing greater resources into Ontario's classrooms has been exposed as a charade.

The Harris-Eves government has, without regard for the consequences, deliberately robbed our children of funding at the Toronto District School Board to the

tune of $2,100 per pupil. Even worse, you appointed a supervisor to make further cuts. Minister, it's finally time for you to take responsibility and show some leadership. In light of Rozanski's

findings, the proper thing to do is to terminate Paul Christie. The TDSB is having its organizational meeting tonight. Will you restore the authority of the Toronto District School Board trustees

to allow them to get to the business of providing the best possible education for children in the city of Toronto?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): The member opposite talks about the right thing to do. I can tell you that at

the present time, our Premier, Premier Eves, is doing the right thing. He is announcing 250 million additional dollars for special-education students. We are not only increasing the money by $130

million; we're also adding the remaining $120 million.

We're doing the right thing for students in this province. We're making sure that all the students, no matter where they live, are going to get the support

they need.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Supplementary?

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River): The Rozanski report was clear. It confirms what the leader Dalton McGuinty has been saying. Your

funding cuts have hurt children in the classroom. When you removed adult education programs, you shattered the dreams of single mothers and a second chance for their education. When you eliminate

Communities like Scarborough-Rouge River are the new face of Ontario, yet you don't seem to realize that. How can you reconcile all this? Will you admit that

your course of action was wrong, and when will you rectify education funding and put it back in place?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I would just repeat one more time that yesterday was a validation of the student funding formula. Yesterday has been supported

-- if you had been in the room yesterday with the chairperson and the directors from across the province of Ontario, I can tell you there are a lot of very happy people in this province because

they know that the plan we have had in place since 1995 is helping students achieve success. They also know that when it comes to international testing, at the present time our province is second

to only one other country in literacy, and that's Finland. Our student funding formula is working. It is helping all of our students, no matter where they live, achieve the success that they

deserve and that they need.

COMMUNITY COLLEGES

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): My question is for the hard-working and straight-shooting Minister of Training, Colleges

and Universities. We all know that a skilled workforce is essential to a strong economy. Employers are demanding highly trained graduates who are ready to go directly into the workforce and

contribute to our economy. Ontario colleges of applied arts and technology are essential to training the next generation of skilled workers in our province. Colleges provide programs that are

closely tied to the job market and often deliver the classroom portion of apprenticeship training.

This year's budget committed new funding to upgrade the equipment and resources available to students in Ontario's colleges. Minister, can you give us an

update on the status of this funding and the good work it is doing to ensure that Ontario college students have access to the modern equipment and resources that will help them to be more

productive in the workplace?

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, minister responsible for women's issues): I would really like to thank

my honourable colleague for this question. He has been the author of one of the most important research documents and public hearings in the province of Ontario on apprenticeship training, and I

want to thank him very much for the Gill report.

We already have committed to increase funding for Ontario's colleges to support increased enrolment. Beyond that, we have committed some $50 million to help

colleges purchase new equipment and learning resources to support high-quality and relevant education for Ontario students.

The college equipment and renewal fund will invest $10 million a year for the next five years to improve the resources that students need to help them learn.

I'd like to thank the partnerships of the community and the businesses that are giving these students opportunities and participating in the purchase of equipment to make our colleges better than

they ever have been.

Mr Gill: Minister, thank you for your support during the writing of that report. It was a very important report for Ontario.

Minister, every community in Ontario is different, and every college is different. Members who have met with the college community will know that colleges that

serve northern and rural communities face different challenges. These can range from higher costs due to distance to the need to operate programs with fewer students in smaller communities.

Premier Eves recently announced $16 million in new support to ensure that both colleges and universities that serve Ontario's northern and rural regions remain

strong and can continue to provide a high level of service to their students and those communities.

Minister, can you give us details of this funding and tell us how it will support a strong college system in Ontario?

Hon Mrs Cunningham: In response to my colleague, I will say that in Sault Ste Marie on November 28 Mr Eves did in fact announce $16 million in

northern colleges and universities funding. Algoma University received half a million dollars. Sault College of Applied Arts and Technology received $1.1 million.

This is just an indication of our commitment to northern communities to make sure that in fact young people get the training they need, that we double the

number of apprenticeship programs. Of the $16 million that was announced, $10 million will be used to support Ontario colleges that serve northern and rural communities. This northern and rural

college grant was created especially so that we can provide these colleges with the opportunities for Ontarians where they live and close to their own communities so that they can be contributing

members and help the economy of this great province.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain): My question is for the Minister of Education. Minister, it is clear that despite

interpretations

of the funding formula, the Rozanski report did indicate that you've been underfunding education.

This afternoon, as you have stated, the Premier will be making an announcement. Shall we guess? More funding? This is the typical Tory story. First you create

a crisis, you underfund something, and then you come in just before an election or a by-election and you throw money back in.

Minister, you suspended a democratically elected board of trustees in my city of Hamilton which refused to pass a budget that ignored the needs of students.

Will you now at least agree that these trustees were doing their job in looking out for student needs and fire your highly paid supervisor and his highly paid spin doctor and reinstate the board of

trustees in Hamilton?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): I think the member opposite forgets one key point regarding the appointment of

the supervisor in order to ensure that Hamilton had a balanced budget. What she really forgets is the fact that the trustees in Hamilton had the opportunity to actually debate and discuss balanced

budgets that had been prepared for them by staff, and they just refused to do so. And so there was no choice whatsoever other than to send in a supervisor. I might say to the member opposite that

the support of the public for the supervisor is very high.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Supplementary?

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): My follow-up question is for the same minister. Clearly the Rozanski report vindicated trustees in

Hamilton. They made the decisions you didn't have the guts to. They made a decision in the best interests of kids. You sent a hatchet man down the QEW. He has now done his job: he's balanced his

budget. I would ask you now to fire him and send him home.

On Tuesday night, he is going to make a decision that is going to affect 11 schools. Now, through this report, there has been an acknowledgement that you have

underfunded public education. The reason many of these schools will be recommended for closure on Tuesday night is because of your flawed funding formula.

I'm asking you, Minister, as these schools, like Lloyd George in my riding, are going to close, you are cutting the heart out of this community. You are

destroying a neighbourhood. I would ask you, in good conscience, in the best interest of these kids and public education, will you fire your supervisor? Will you also direct your supervisor not to

recommend any school closures until a new funding plan is in place and the new money is allocated to the board, where we can make a decision based on the money available, not on some outdated,

flawed formula that you brought in that has hurt kids in this city of Hamilton? That is the least you can do today. Reinstate the trustees, get rid of the supervisor and put on hold any school

closures in the city of Hamilton.

Hon Mrs Witmer: The member opposite obviously doesn't understand that school closures have been a fact of life for a long time in the province

of Ontario. In fact, between 1985 and 1990, during the Liberals' time in power, 37 public and Catholic schools were closed in Toronto. This is nothing new. Simply because people move and

populations change, there is a need for new schools to be built where the population is. We continue to go through this process of building new schools to accommodate the needs of students in other

areas and schools are closed when the population no longer is there to support them. It's a process that has been going on for many years, and it will continue to do so. There is also a process

that allows for parental input, and at the end of the day, after that input, a decision is made.

RURAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): My question is for the Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing responsible for rural

affairs. Minister, I was very pleased to see today that you introduced the rural red tape bill. Can you tell this House about the history of this piece of legislation and what motivated you to

develop this rural red tape bill?

Hon Brian Coburn (Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I'd like to thank the honourable member for Parry Sound-Muskoka for

his question, and also thank him for his tireless work on the Red Tape Commission as well, in particular developing this red tape bill.

The good people of Ontario certainly deserve the same opportunities for growth and prosperity as our urban counterparts. Over the past two years -- and this is

through the extensive consultation that we've had -- we've heard over and over again from these stakeholders who have made it clear there were barriers to their businesses, that they were facing

barriers to economic growth. We identified a number of areas where we could make improvements, so we should make those improvements so that they can continue to prosper in our rural

communities.

As a result of these consultations, actually with over 600 businesses and communities all across Ontario, we developed a red tape reduction plan that

recognizes the unique challenges they face. This bill, if passed, will go a long way in addressing some of those disadvantages they face.

Mr Miller: This is indeed good news for all of rural Ontario. I'm delighted to see that our government, under the strong leadership of Premier

Eves, is moving forward on removing needless and outdated red tape in rural Ontario.

Minister, for my constituents as well as this House, can you highlight some of the benefits that we will see from this bill?

Hon Mr Coburn: Certainly, rural communities are a key part of the fabric of Ontario and of our society. This bill, if it's passed, will

strengthen those rural communities and provide a better quality of life and more opportunities for the business sector in these rural communities. By removing these barriers, they'll encourage the

economic growth that they strive for, attract more investment and eliminate obstacles to job creation in rural Ontario. This process will help Ontario's rural communities to create their own vision

for the future in their communities, so they can work toward that in collaboration with the residents who live there. They can be architects of their future in those communities and we can help

them relieve the administrative burdens caused by unnecessary red tape. This legislation is certainly built upon some of the key issues and priorities identified by the rural Ontario stakeholders.

This is another step in the process of eliminating red tape that stymies investment. That'll help us encourage investment and prosperity in rural and small-town Ontario.

HIGHWAY 406

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. Minister, in an announcement in 1999, the then

Minister of Transportation promised the commencement of the four-laning and extension of Highway 406. Will you please explain to us the progress that's been made in that regard?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Transportation): We have been working on the

section immediately to the -- I always have difficulty

knowing what's north, south, east, west -- toward St Catharines. We have been working on that particular

section and we're continuing to look at improvements to the 406. As you know, there is some

controversy as to how that next

section will take place, but we're continuing to pour our resources into the area and we're going to continue to work on it.

Mr Kormos: Minister, the part of 406 toward St Catharines is already four lanes. You mean south of St Catharines; that's number one. Number

two, you've got to understand that communities like Port Colborne, for instance, with the loss of Marsh Engineering, the loss of other manufacturing and industrial facilities in Niagara, are

desperately in need of the extension of the 406 southward into Port Colborne, the riding of Erie-Lincoln, as well as the four-laning of that portion south of the current four-laning. The promise

was made in 1999 by a predecessor Minister of Transportation. A commitment was made by this government to the four-laning southbound of the 406 and to the extension of the 406 into Port Colborne.

This is of great interest, not only to people in Welland and Port Colborne, in the riding of Erie-Lincoln, but in fact to residents of every one of the four ridings of Niagara region, represented

by four different members of the Legislative Assembly. We would really appreciate some more concrete advice as to the progress that's been made and the target date for the completion of this

work.

Hon Mr Sterling: As everyone knows, when you go to build a highway, there's always problems with regard to unforeseen problems. As I

understand it, there were some problems with regard to land acquisition in that particular area for us to go ahead. So all I can say to the member is that we continue to be committed to the 406, to

living with the commitments we've made before, as well as being committed to the mid-peninsula corridor, which of course is very important to that area. I think in the not too far distant future

I'm going to be meeting with the mayor of Port Colborne over the very issue and talking to him about his concerns with regard to it.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton): My question is to the Minister of Education. Since I've come to the Legislature, many have raised

concerns regarding the impact of underfunding of our public education system. Minister, your underfunding has had a traumatic effect in my community of Sarnia-Lambton. Many small schools have been

closed, the latest being St Helen's. By the way it's a full, viable school. In schools in my riding there have been cuts to support staff. We have fewer librarians, custodians, vice-principals,

school secretaries, specialist teachers and special education. Maintenance repairs have been put on hold. Yet the Minister of Education has constantly denied that there is an underfunding to the

classroom. Well, the Rozanski report has now qualified what we've been saying all along. In his report, on page 16, he says, "Education, while centred in the classroom, is influenced by what occurs

in the whole school." Will the minister now admit that the chronic underfunding has eroded the quality of education in our classrooms?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): What I will confirm is that we were extremely fortunate to have in this province

an individual such as Dr Mordecai Rozanski who undertook to lead the task force to take a look at the funding formula, who did this without any remuneration whatsoever, who took the time to travel

the province, who took the time to visit our schools, who took the time to read many submissions, and at the end of the day he has come forward with recommendations which validate what we have

already done. He has made recommendations for further strategic investments, building upon the 3% that we've already added to the budget this year in order that we could continue to meet the needs

of students everywhere in this province. That's what I'm proud of.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Supplementary?

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): To the same minister: Minister, we now have confirmed yesterday that education doesn't end at the

classroom door. Schools are woven into the very fabric of our community. Rural schools have always closed because of declining enrolment. They're now closing because of declining revenue for the

schools.

We now have expensive yellow buses travelling our rural roads every morning, vacuuming up our children and taking them to faraway places. We haven't measured

what the effect is on the community or on these young people with that action, but I don't believe it is a coincidence that the crisis facing Ontario now is: where are our young farmers?

Minister, I'm asking you now to impose a moratorium on the closing of rural schools, to talk to school boards, to talk to the Ontario Federation of

Agriculture, to talk to parents, to talk to community leaders, to find a way to save our rural way of life, save our rural schools.

Minister, will you impose now a moratorium on the closing and the attack on rural Ontario?

Hon Mrs Witmer: The member opposite and I both understand, I believe, that there has always been a policy on school closures. In fact, I would

like to quote Ernie Parsons, Kingston Whig-Standard, January 29, 1997: "As Hastings public school board chairman, Parsons agreed to sell the Belleville Collegiate school, realizing that school

boards were responsible for school closures and the costs of running empty schools.

"He said, `It became a cold, hard decision that we had too much floor space,' thus admitting his schools were grossly under their capacities."

HYDRO REBATES

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): This question is to the forever hard-working and diligent Minister of Energy. Minister,

with the passage of the Electricity Pricing, Conservation and Supply Act this past Monday, the government has introduced important measures to protect consumers from volatility in the price of

power and provide them with real relief by issuing rebates for past high prices.

My office, Minister, has received numerous phone calls from constituents who are condo owners. They are concerned that the price freeze and rebates do not

apply to them. Minister, what can you tell us to reassure condominium owners in my great riding of Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale that this act applies to them as well?

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, minister responsible for francophone affairs): I know, as does the member who asked the question, that

when this government came forward with an action plan to provide support to ensure stability for people's electricity rates, we talked about families, we talked about small businesses, and we

talked about farm operators, all of which needed relief, not just for the high bills on the kitchen table, but for those bills in the future, while we bring more supply on-line.

I want to thank the honourable member for his efforts and for the efforts of a good number of other members, like the member for Willowdale, like the member

for Stoney Creek and the member for Don Valley West. They have worked tremendously hard on this issue.

Yes, let me clarify: condominiums and condominium owners and families who reside in condominiums are fully covered by Bill 210. We designated them under the

designation

section of the legislation to ensure that they benefit from this important policy.

Mr Gill: Minister, I want to thank you for the response. I'm sure condominium corporations and condominium owners will be very pleased to know

that the price cap and refund introduced as part of Bill 210 apply to them as well.

Having said that, Minister, there are other consumers in Ontario who are also concerned. Can you please tell us what is being done to protect organizations

like charities, seniors' homes and people who live in apartments under this legislation?

Hon Mr Baird: I'd also indicate to the member for Toronto Centre-Rosedale that all condominium residents in his constituency are covered by

this as well.

To the member from Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale, this legislation provides support for our municipalities, for our universities, for our schools and for our

hospitals. We certainly want to cover seniors' residences. We want to cover tenants in Ontario. We want to ensure that groups like developmental disability organizations funded through the Ministry

of Community, Family and Children's Services are covered. We want to ensure the range of agencies supported by the Ministry of Health are covered by this protection.

We also take note that the Minister of Culture and the Minister of Tourism have stepped in to ensure that the publicly funded cultural and tourist attractions

are equally covered so that they can take advantage of this important legislation that received such overwhelming support this week in the Legislature.

SAVE THE ROUGE

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): I have a question for the Minister of Culture. Save the Rouge, one of Ontario's most respected

environmental groups and an advocate for 27 years, and the tireless volunteers of Save the Rouge have led the fight to create Canada's largest urban park in Rouge Valley and led the fight to

protect the Oak Ridges moraine. They have learned, to their astonishment, that your Trillium organization, in an unprecedented, never-heard-of event, cut off the funding of this group.

According to a press release issued by Save the Rouge yesterday, when the group questioned your government's secret deal with developers, allowing 8,000 homes

to be built on the Oak Ridges moraine in Richmond Hill, they were told by Trillium staff that if they criticized the provincial government on the moraine developments, their funding for habitat

restoration would be cut off.

Mr Minister, can you stand up and justify this cut-off of funding of one of Ontario's leading environmental groups, which for 27 years has been fighting to

save the moraine and fighting to save the Rouge? How can you justify --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the member's time is up.

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Minister of Culture): Clearly, there are rules. The Ontario Trillium

Foundation is an arm's-length agency of the government. They have specific rules.

There was a letter issued July 11 to the Save the Rouge Valley System from the Trillium Foundation. In the letter -- this is July 11 -- it says, "While we

appreciate the importance of having communities constructively involved in public consultation processes, Trillium's advocacy policy states that the foundation does not support organizations or

activities that promote a biased viewpoint or advocate a political position on issues of public concern."

These were the rules under which the application was made. The letter indicated to Save the Rouge Valley System their concern about that. Despite the warning,

they continued the activities.

Therefore, as I am told by the Trillium Foundation, that precipitated the action they took. These rules were there when they applied for their grant. Clearly

that was what they were --

The Speaker: The minister's time is up. Supplementary.

Mr Colle: Save the Rouge was involved in removing dams and other barriers from rivers, planting streamside vegetation, stabilizing riverbanks,

enhancing spawning habitats, planting native trees. They were involving church groups, Boy Scouts. They've been doing this for 27 years.

Here's what Save the Rouge thinks happened. Glenn De Baeremaeker, one of Canada's leading environmentalists, said, "It's financial blackmail.... Say nice

things about the government, we'll give you money. Criticize it and we'll cut you off." Glenn De Baeremaeker and Save the Rouge had the integrity to stand up and say, "Put 8,000 homes on the

moraine and you're killing wildlife, you're killing the Oak Ridges moraine." Because they had the integrity to state the truth, your political hacks at the Trillium Foundation have cut off their

funding. How can you justify that by your political hacks?

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: This is somewhat of a surprising question from the member in light of the fact that earlier on this week we were dealing

with the Provincial Auditor of Ontario indicating that there are rules to be followed. We've indicated that we're sprucing up the rules. Now the member is saying that even though there are rules,

it's OK to break the rules; it doesn't matter. Frankly, we disagree with you. Rules are there to be obeyed. That's why we're sprucing up the rules right across the public service. Here's an

indication of rules not being followed and being enforced, and you don't like it. The rules were there before the application.

TFO

Minister Dianne Cunningham, we all know that TFO has been serving Ontario's francophone community since 1987. We know that TFO is an essential tool to French-language education in Ontario. TFO is

currently governed by a 13-member board of directors of the Ontario Educational Communications Authority, only two of whom speak French well enough to watch and understand the network they

govern.

Minister, on October 3, I presented to this House a resolution that carried, requesting that you look into the matter of granting TFO autonomy in its direction

and development. At that time you said that you were "interested in seeking out new ways to do things better." What has been done? You said that you would be speaking further with your colleagues

with regard to the effects of the resolution on TFO. What has been done? You said, "Let's sit down and talk with the French-speaking community about improvements that we can make." What has been

done so far?

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, minister responsible for women's issues): I welcome the question from

my colleague from Ottawa-Vanier, only to say to her that there has been great progress at TFO with regard to strengthening the network itself.

Since you last asked the question, I of course have been in touch through the chair, and I will say that there has been an increase in the range of in-house

production focusing on francophone needs. This is just since you and I talked. There has been an extension of multi-media products such as CD-ROMs, and professional development workshops, I might

add, for French language teachers. These are all needs that the francophone community has defined with regard to this wonderful service. In the end, they told me the professional development

workshops for these French language teachers are in addition to a redesign of the TFO Web site.

Mrs Boyer: Minister, I hear you and I know progress may have been done, but it's not giving me the concern about autonomy. I have a solution.

It is non-partisan. It is grassroots. It comes from the very people who watch TFO, the hundreds of thousands of francophones and francophiles across Ontario, those very people with whom I thought

you should talk.

Here are letters of support from over 100 francophone organizations. Their solution is to create a French-language

section at TVO to govern TFO exclusively.

What does the minister have to say to these more than 100 francophone organizations across Ontario? How does the minister plan to improve the services provided by TFO? Can the minister assure me

that she will take action to see to it that TFO is governed by people who speak the language of the network?

Hon Mrs Cunningham: Again, I will look into the specific requests, but I will say that I did make an effort to show you improved services. In

French.

-- this is a celebration for TFO -- the services have been improved significantly. There are more people involved.

But I did hear your specific question. You are asking about the number of francophones who are involved, and I will look into that and get back to you.

MINISTRY OF ENTERPRISE,

OPPORTUNITY AND INNOVATION

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton Centre): My question is for the minister with the luminescent Christmas tie that clearly demonstrates enterprise,

opportunity and innovation.

Promotion of a culture of innovation has been a major guiding principle of your ministry. As members of the House know, the first rung on the ladder of

innovation is research.

Interjection.

Mr Spina: The member from Rosedale has no idea what he's talking about.

Minister, would you please inform the members of the steps this government is taking to support research in this province.

Hon David Turnbull (Associate Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation): I thank the member for Brampton Centre for this important

question. Ontario's world-class researchers working at universities, colleges, hospitals and research institutions are creating knowledge, which fuels innovation. Our government recognizes that

it's important to reward researchers and their excellence. To this end, we've created the Premier's Research Excellence Awards. The program provides early-stage support for researchers to help

attract talented people to research teams. The total government investment is $85 million over five years. To date, we've awarded 438 researchers with $43.6 million.

Another program is the Premier's Platinum Medal for Research Excellence. This was created in the 2001 budget, with a commitment of $10 million over six years.

The Premier's platinum medal underscores Ontario's commitment to R&D.

Mr Spina: Minister, as well as turning on your tie to ensure a bright future for innovation in Ontario, you know we have to invest in those

who represent the future: our young people, people like my daughter.

Take a moment and tell the details of the Youth, Science and Technology program to the members of this House. And we'd really like to see that Christmas

tie.

Hon Mr Turnbull: Our government certainly plays an important role in promoting science and technology literacy. The Youth, Science and

Technology program, announced in September 2000, increases youth awareness of science, technology and innovation. Our government has committed $5 million over five years. To date, 35 projects have

been approved, which benefit over 100,000 youths annually. Projects span a wide range of subjects, including astronomy and biotechnology. Research varies and the youths are taking advantage of this

in classrooms, laboratories and even under nighttime skies.

PETITIONS

WATER EXTRACTION

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): My petition is to the Legislative Assembly and to the Honourable Chris Stockwell, Minister of the

Environment, concerning the OMYA Canada Inc appeal of the decision of the Environmental Review Tribunal in a matter of a permit to take water from the Tay River, Perth, Ontario.

"For the past two years, a group of citizens has opposed the taking of a large amount of water from the Tay River for a consumptive industrial use. In February

2002 the Environmental Review Tribunal reached a decision that was a compromise between the needs of an expanding industry and the concerns of local citizens for the protection of water.

"The company, OMYA, now seeks to overturn the tribunal's ruling and has appealed the decision to both the Divisional Court and the Minister of the Environment.

The Minister of the Environment has agreed to hear the appeal to him first.

"We, the undersigned, urge the Minister of the Environment to uphold the decision of the Environmental Review Tribunal and its precautionary and ecological

approach to the management of water. In doing so, the minister upholds the government's commitment to the principles and recommendations of the Walkerton Inquiry report."

I affix my signature. I am in complete agreement with this petition.

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): These are more petitions on adoption disclosure. They read:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas in Ontario, adopted adults are denied a right available to all non-adoptees, that is, the unrestricted right to identifying information concerning

their family of origin;

"Whereas Canada has ratified standards of civil and human rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the UN

Convention on the Rights of the Child;

"Whereas these rights are denied to persons affected by the secrecy provisions in the adoption sections of the Child and Family Services Act and other acts of

the province of Ontario;

"Whereas research in other jurisdictions has demonstrated that disclosure does not cause harm, that access to such information is beneficial to adult adoptees,

adoptive parents and birth parents, and that birth parents rarely requested or were promised anonymity;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to enact revision of the Child and Family Services Act and other acts to permit adult adoptees

unrestricted access to full personal identifying birth information; permit birth parents, grandparents and siblings access to the adopted person's amended birth certificate when the adopted person

reaches age 18; permit adoptive parents unrestricted access to identifying birth information of their minor children; allow adopted persons and birth relatives to file a contact veto restricting

contact by the searching party; replace mandatory reunion counselling with optional counselling."

I will sign this petition because I support it.

CAT SCANNER

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas various local partners have contributed capital funding for a CAT scan to be purchased by the Woodstock General Hospital; and

"Whereas a CAT scan is an essential piece of equipment for the practice of modern medicine; and

"Whereas a CAT scan is standard equipment for a hospital of this size in North America; and

"Whereas all hospitals associated with a city the size of Woodstock in southwestern Ontario have at least one CAT scan except for the Woodstock General

Hospital;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care approve the placement of a CAT scan at Woodstock General Hospital and provide the hospital with necessary

operating funds to continue with its use."

It is signed by a great number of residents in the city of Woodstock and in the county of Oxford. I affix my signature to it, as I agree with those who signed

the petition.

NATURAL GAS RATES

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): I've received thousands and thousands of names in regard to this particular petition. It's to the Legislative

Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Ontario Energy Board has consented to allow Union Gas to retroactively charge $40 per month for a three-month period to recover additional system

operation costs that occurred during the winter of 2000-01 totalling approximately $150 million; and

"Whereas Union Gas will recover accrued costs over the peak heating season, causing undue hardship; and

"Whereas this retroactive charge will affect all customers who receive Union Gas, including new homeowners and new customers to Union Gas;

"Therefore we demand that the Ernie Eves government issue a policy directive under

section 27.1 of the Ontario Energy Board Act disallowing the retroactive

rate hike granted to Union Gas, and we further demand that the Legislature examine the Ontario Energy Board, its processes and its resources, and make changes that will protect consumers from

further retroactive increases."

I too have signed this petition.

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO

SAVINGS OFFICE

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. It reads as follows:

"Whereas the Province of Ontario Savings Office was created in 1922 by united farmers and labour as a unique banking facility that allowed Ontarians to invest

in their province; and

"Whereas the Province of Ontario Savings Office enjoys a strong popularity among Ontario residents, with over 100,000 accounts and over $2.8 billion on

deposit; and

"Whereas the Province of Ontario Savings Office offers customers attractive interest rates, generous chequing privileges and personalized efficient service,

and every dollar deposited is guaranteed by the province of Ontario; and

"Whereas POSO has 23 branches serving 17 communities across Ontario, including Hamilton, Windsor, Ottawa and small communities in northern Ontario not served

by other banks or trust companies. Places like Pickle Lake, Armstrong, Killarney, Gogama and Virginiatown; and

"Whereas the Tory government announced in its latest budget that it will put the Province of Ontario Savings Office on the auction block, even though it is a

consistent revenue generator, and even though this revenue could help Ontario's crumbling infrastructure after years of Tory neglect;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To save the people's bank, the Province of Ontario Savings Office, so that it can continue its historic role of providing excellent banking services to

families in communities across Ontario; so that people in small towns will not be forced to go farther afield for banking services and forced to go to private, for-profit banks."

I agree with the petitioners. I have affixed my signature to this.

WATER EXTRACTION

Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington): I have a petition with many hundreds of names on it from the constituency of

Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey, and it reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Genuine Springs Inc, located at lot 17, Concession 3, town of Mono, Dufferin county (land within the escarpment protection area, a world biosphere

controlled by the Niagara Escarpment Commission) is planning to extract water from four wells that have been dug in the above-noted property, and bottle such water for commercial purposes at a

different location; and

"Whereas a temporary permit to take water (No. 02-P-2077(T)) has been issued on August 6, 2002, in relation to the above-noted location, expiring September 30,

2002; and

"Whereas the residents of the town of Mono and Dufferin county are not aware of any scientific, objective and independent tests and studies having been

conducted, assessing the implications of such water extraction, including the impact on the water table (the Amabel aquifer) and the surrounding environment;

"Now therefore the residents of the town of Mono and Dufferin county respectfully petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to halt the extraction of water

for commercial purposes at lot 17, concession 3, town of Mono, Dufferin County, unless and until complete scientific, objective and independent tests and studies have been conducted, assessing the

implications of such water extraction, including the impact on the water table (the Amabel aquifer) and the surrounding environment and until the results of such tests have been presented, received

and understood by the residents of the town of Mono and Dufferin county. Furthermore, the petitioners respectfully request that no further permits to take water be issued to Genuine Springs Inc

until the tests and studies herein referred to have been conducted and dealt with as noted in this petition."

I have affixed my signature as well, as per the rules of this House.

Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): This is from OMYA Canada Inc -- appeal of the decision of the Environmental

Review Tribunal in the matter of a permit to take water from the Tay River in Perth, Ontario.

"For the past two years a group of citizens has opposed the taking of a large amount of water from the Tay River for a consumptive industrial use. In February

2002 the Environmental Review Tribunal reached a decision that was a compromise between the needs of an expanding industry and the concerns of local citizens for the protection of water.

"The company, OMYA, now seeks to overturn the tribunal's ruling and has appealed the decision to both the Divisional Court and the Minister of the Environment.

The Minister of the Environment has agreed to hear the appeal to him first.

"We, the undersigned, urge the Minister of the Environment to uphold the decision of the Environmental Review Tribunal and its precautionary and ecological

approach to the management of water. In doing so, the minister upholds the government's commitment to the principles and recommendations of the Walkerton Inquiry report."

I will affix my signature to this petition, because I am in full agreement.

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO

SAVINGS OFFICE

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): This petition has been signed by many people who live in Guelph, Ontario. It reads as follows:

"Cancel the decision to sell the Province of Ontario Savings branches, as many account holders are seniors and long-time account holders, among many other ...

satisfied customers. These banks and staff are a credit to their province."

I agree with the petitioners; I have affixed my signature to this.

HYDRO RATES

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas electricity bills have skyrocketed under the Harris-Eves government's flawed electricity plan; and

"Whereas some consumers have signed higher fixed-rate contracts with retailers, without adequate consumer protections; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has failed to address electricity supply shortages in Ontario, forcing the purchase of American power at premium prices,

driving up prices still further; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government appointed a board of directors for Hydro One that has been paying themselves extravagant salaries, compensation packages

and severances for senior executives; and

"Whereas Hydro One bought 90 municipal utilities, serving about 240,000 people across Ontario, at premium prices and with borrowed funds. These purchases with

borrowed funds have increased Ontario's debt burden; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has added additional fees and taxes to local electricity distribution companies. These charges have also been passed along

to consumers;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Harris-Eves government take immediate action to ensure that Ontarians have fair and

reasonable prices for the necessary commodity of electricity in Ontario and that the Harris-Eves government and its leader Ernie Eves call a general election on the instability of the energy market

so that Ontarians may have a voice on this issue."

In support, I sign my signature.

MEDICAL REVIEW COMMITTEE

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the OHIP

schedule of benefits is often unclear about its

definitions of good medical practice for many serious medical conditions: general checkups,

rechecks, psychotherapy counselling and often major illness care by specialists;

"The medical review committee of the College of Physicians and Surgeons has been aggressively clawing back payments to hard-working, conscientious doctors on

the basis of these flawed

definitions and skewed statistical analyses.

"We, the undersigned, request the Minister of Health to suspend further reviews by the medical review committee; return the monies with its penalties, pending

a negotiated agreement of an unambiguous

schedule of benefits with representatives of affected practising physicians."

HYDRO RATES

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Ernie Eves government convene a legislative committee to oversee electricity issues in order to

inform and protect the public interest."

This petition is signed by numerous members of my riding, including Mitch Hepburn, the great-grandson of the former Premier of this province from 1934 to

OPTOMETRISTS

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I have a petition to the Ontario Legislature.

"Whereas the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario will be considering a private member's bill that aims to amend the Optometry Act to give

optometrists the authority to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical agents for the treatment of certain eye diseases; and

"Whereas optometrists are highly trained and equipped with the knowledge and specialized instrumentation needed to effectively diagnose and treat certain eye

problems; and

"Whereas extending the authority to prescribe TPAs to optometrists will help relieve the demands on ophthalmologists and physicians who currently have the

exclusive domain for prescribing TPAs to optometry patients; and

"Whereas the bill introduced by New Democrat Peter Kormos (MPP, Niagara Centre) will ensure that patients receive prompt, timely, one-stop care where

appropriate;

"Therefore I do support the bill proposing an amendment to the Optometry Act to give optometrists the authority to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical agents

for the treatment of certain eye diseases and I urge the government of Ontario to ensure speedy passage of the bill."

This was sent to me by R.D. Lidkea of Fort Frances, Ontario, and accompanies many others.

HYDRO ONE

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): An important petition to the Ontario Legislature:

"Whereas the Conservative government plans to sell off Hydro One and Ontario's electricity transmission grid -- the central nervous system of Ontario's

economy;

"Whereas the government never campaigned on selling off this vital $5-billion public asset and never consulted the people of Ontario on this plan;

"Whereas Ontario families want affordable, reliable electricity -- they know that the sale of the grid that carries electricity to their homes is a disaster

for consumers;

"Whereas selling the grid will not benefit consumers -- the only Ontarians who will likely benefit are Bay Street brokers and Hydro One executives;

"Whereas selling Hydro One and the grid is like selling every 400 series highway in the province to private interests -- selling the grid means the public

sector will no longer be responsible for its security and protection;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature as follows:

"To demand the Conservative government halt the sale of Hydro One until the government has a clear mandate from the owners of Hydro One -- the people of

Ontario."

This is signed by good citizens from Ridgetown, Blenheim, Chatham, Thamesville and Muirkirk. I too have signed this petition.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): The Chair recognizes the chief government House whip.

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): Because I'm the only government House leader. That's why I'm the

chief.

Mr Speaker, order M186.

COLLISION REPAIR

STANDARDS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LES NORMES DE RÉPARATION

EN CAS DE COLLISION

Mr Sampson moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 186,

An Act to further highway safety and establish consumer protection through the regulation of the collision repair industry, and to make a

complementary amendment to the Insurance Act / Projet de loi 186, Loi visant à améliorer la sécurité sur les voies publiques et à protéger les consommateurs en

réglementant le secteur de la réparation en cas de collision et à apporter une modification complémentaire à la

Loi sur les assurances.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Mr Sampson has moved second reading.

Mr David Caplan (Don Valley East): Third reading.

The Deputy Speaker: Third reading; I'm sorry. The Chair recognizes the member for Mississauga Centre.

Mr Rob Sampson (Mississauga Centre): Thank you, Speaker. I hope I said third reading. Indeed, that is what we are doing here.

Before I start, I want to say thank you to a number of people who have been involved in the preparation of this bill, the process the bill has gone through

since its first introduction, actually in June of this year, and then its second first introduction in October of this year. Right off the top, I should probably thank the House leader for -- well,

I know he's a little disappointed that he wasn't promoted to be the chief House leader, but there's always next year, you know, subject to promotions.

Interjection.

Mr Sampson: You don't want the job. But he has been helpful, of course, as have been the other House leaders, frankly, in allowing this bill

to move through the process, allowing members of all the parties to speak to this in a fair and open way and --

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): Give him a kiss. Pucker up.

Mr Sampson: No, I think he's done a good job in doing that.

But let me move on from there, because there are more people involved in it. The member from Oak Ridges, who originally sponsored this bill in June of this

year was promoted to be the Minister of Tourism and of course had to then leave his private member's bill for somebody else to pick up. I was more than happy to do that, because of course it was

that member and myself who originated the work on this in 1986 when it became clear to us that the industry needed a good looking at as it related to the regulation of what was done in the

collision repair industry. Both that member and I started the work of listening and talking to people who were in the industry, asking them for their opinions and focusing them on issues that would

try to improve consumer protection in the area where consumers are dealing with having to get their car repaired, whether it's as the result of an accident or just to get their car repaired as a

result of some sort of damage that was otherwise caused to the vehicle.

That brings me to the Minister of Consumer and Business Services, who has kindly and with full enthusiasm accepted the concept of the regulation,

self-regulation if you will, of this particular industry. It's a concept that's not terribly new to this House or to this province, since there are a number of other professions, I shall say, and

businesses that have embraced the concept of self-regulation to establish and maintain and police a fair and equitable level of performance standards across the entire industry. So I want to thank

the minister for his support on that, his continued support of the bill. Should the House decide to carry this bill, I hope he will continue to enthusiastically support this concept as it goes

through its development phase.

I also want to thank the members of the opposition, who have taken their partisan hats off, which is difficult in this place, and worked with me to improve the

bill that was not only tabled in June but, as I said, re-tabled on October 7 of this year. It went through the committee process. We had deputations from a number of people; either they came before

the committee or they wrote to the committee and made some suggestions for amendments. I would say to you that in a spirit of co-operation that is not usually seen in this House, unfortunately, the

bill has been substantially improved over the version that was originally considered by this House at first reading. I want to thank members of the opposition for their efforts, non-partisan

efforts, to try to improve this piece of legislation for the benefit of consumers.

I also want to thank the many shop owners throughout the province of Ontario and their relative associations. I say associations, because there are a few of

them. Some of those members are here in the House today watching the proceedings. I want to thank them for their efforts in taking a look at the concept of self-regulation and embracing it and

agreeing that it's indeed something that has been called for in the industry for some time. It's time has come. It's not an easy concept to embrace because it does mean there will be this oversight

on your operation; there will be this process that will determine standards of performance, the type of qualifications employees have to have etc. It's not easy to accept those. Those, of course,

will have to be paid for somehow. I think the industry has agreed that they are going to have to be part of the process that helps fund this. Don't look toward government to pay for this. These are

difficult issues to grasp.

When Frank and I originally proposed this concept, it was a group that, I would argue, was not very cohesive, was a bit fraction