Manitoba Hansard — 13 December 1994 (Sitting 9, 35th Legislature, 6th Session)

35-6-9

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Sixth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the llllthority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VoL XLIV No. 9 • 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, December 13, 1994 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation l!Ww: !::~tamtneng: ASHTON, Steve Thompson BARRE'IT, Becky Wellington CBRILLI, Marianne Radisson CHOMIAK, Dave K.ildonan CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose DACQUAY, Louise Seine River DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin- Russell DEWAR, Gregory Selkiik DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel BOW ARDS, Paul SLJames ENNS, Hllll}', Hon. Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. C!arleswood EVANS,Clif Interlake EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon.

Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil SL Boniface Gn.LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Qesc:entwood HEL WER, Edward Gimli HICKES, George Point Douglas KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster LAnn.IN, Oscar The Pas LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. M<nis MARTINDALE, Doug Bmrows McALPlNE, Geay Sturgeoo Creek McCORMICK, Norma Osborne McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West MclNTOSH. Linda, Hon. Assiniboia MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East ORCHARD, Donald, Hon.

Pembina PALLISTER, Brian Portage la Prairie PENNER. Jack Emersoo PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK. Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet REID, Daryl Transcona REIMER. Jack Niakwa RENDER. Shirley SL Vital ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain SANTOS, Conrad Broadway SCHELLENBERG, Hllll}' Rossmere STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Palk SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye VODREY,Rosemary,Hon. Fort Garry WOWCHUK, Rosano Swan River Vacant River Heights Vacant FlinFloo lW NDP NDP NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. Lib. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. NDP Lib. P.C. Lib. P.C. NDP Lib. Lib.

NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP P.C. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP

411 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, December 13, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROU1YNEPROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to pxesent the petition of T. Headon, G. Milne, H. Boundy and others urging the Minister msponsible for Education (Mr. Manness) to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory com subject area. Canada Post-Unsolicited Mall Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to pxesent the petition of John Samson, M.E.

Owen, Karen Moffatt and others requesting the minister responsible for Canada Post to continue bringing in legislation requiring all 1B1Solicited mail and fliers to use recycled materials. Children's Dental Program Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I beg to pxesent the petition of Justina Waldner, Rachel Waldner, Hilda Waldner and others ICqUCSting the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider restoring the Olildren's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget year. Rent Hike Cancellation Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to pxesent the petition of Patricia Sinclair, Ricky Spence, Leonard McPherson and others requesting the Minister responsible for Housing (Mrs. Mcintosh) to consider cancelling their recent unilateral rent bikes and mstoring the voluntary boards of the housing authorities. Children's Dental Program Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to pxesent the petition of Angie Waldner, Mary Anne Waldner, Dave Waldner and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider mstoring the Oilldren's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the '93-94 budget. Ms.

Marianne Cerilll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Deborah Waldner, Leonard Waldner, Ruben Waldner and others requesting the Minister of Health to consider restoring the Olildren's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the '93-94 budget. Rent Hike Cancellation Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ed Gregoire, Albert Oman, Ernie Spence and others requesting the Minister respmsible for Housing (Mrs. Mcintosh) to consider cancelling the recent unilateral rent hikes and restoring the voluntary boards of the housing authorities.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the hooourable mmber (Mr. l...amoureux). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and it complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Okay, the Oerk will read Mr.

Oerk (W"dliam Remnant): The petition of the undersigned msidcnts of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: 1HAT in July 1994, the Minister of Education introduced an action plan entitled Renewing Education: New Directions; 1HAT this mport will make physical education an optional course in Grades 9 to 12; 1HAT the physical education cmriculum should be mgularly reviewed to ensure that it meets the needs of students;

412 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 1HAT the govmmr:nt is failing to recognize the beocfits of physical education such as improved physical fitness, more active lifestyles, health promotion, self-discipline, skill development, stress reduction, strengthened peer relationships, weight regulation, stronger bones, reduced risk of health diseases and improved self-confidence. WHEREFORE your petitioners hmnbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister responsible for Education to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. •

(1335) TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: In accordance with

Section 54 of The Freedom of Infmmation Act, I am pleased to table the Annual Report for the period January 1, 1993, to December 31, 1993. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Speaker, I would 1i.ke to table the '93- 94 Annual Report of the Fitness and Sport Directorates. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Communities Economic Development Fund Act): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Comrnmities Economic Development Fund for the year ending March 31, 1994.

As well, I would 1i.ke to table the Communities Ecmomic Development Fund Quarterly Report to June 1994 which was provided, I believe, earlier in the year to all members directly. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the following Annual Reports: 1993-94 for the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, the Centre Culture! Franco-Manitobain, and 1993-94 for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. On behalf of the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), I would also table the Annual Report 1993-94 for Manitoba Family Services.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table, pmsuant to The Regulations Act, a copy of each regulation registered with the Registmr ofRegulatioos since the regulations were tabled in this House in April1994. Also, I am pleased to table the Annual Report 1992 of the Office of the Commissioner, Law Enforcement Review Agency. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BilllOl-The Winnipeg Jets Funding Agreement Termination Act Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I move, seconded by the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen}, that leave be given to introduce Bill 202, The Winnipeg Jets Funding Agreemm Termination Act;

Loi sur Ia resiliation de l'accmd de fioancement des Jets de Winnipeg, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, this bill is straight forward. It is modeled after the Pearson Airport bill that has been introduced federally. This I.egislalure. we believe, should have had an opportunity to vote on the operating-loss a.gmenr.ot oftbe Winnipeg Jets before the contract was signed. This legislation will do that and will also protect the 18 percent that was agreed to in the agreement.

This is extraordinary legislation, and we understand that, but we believe that extraordinary legislation is necessary in Older to protect the taxpayers for operating losses of some $43.5 million, which was entered into by the provincial govemmcnt without any debate, without any vote in this Legislature, without any consultation with the people of Manitoba. Thank you. Motion agreed to.

~olber13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 413 Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable meolbers to the gallery, where we have with us this aftemoon thirty-five Grades 5 to 12 students of the Manitoba Associatioo. of Olristian Home Schools. They are under the direction of Mrs. Debbie Martin. The students and parents are the guests of the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mr. MaDness). Also, from the Inwood School, we have twenty five Grades 7 to 9 students under the direction of Mrs. Doona Jaremy.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable meolber for Interlake (Mr. ClifEvans). On behalf of all honourable meolbers, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD SmartHealth Royal Bank Contract Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Ftlmon). Yestenlay, after Question Period, we leamed that the gove••"•rn• had entered into an agreement with a subsidiary of the Royal Bank for a hundred millioo. dollar contract for an information system with the SmartHealth subsidiary of the Royal Bank.

This contract lasts a number of years and requires considerable financial investment by the ~ ofManitoba. The first payment is due in 18 months, Mr. Speaker. We have a number of questions that were not answered by the govemmcnt in its press release on the contract. I would like to ask the Premier, has the govCIDIDCDt signed the contract? Who was involved in vetting the contracts? Will they table the contract in the Ownber today? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I thank the honourable meolber for the question, which is a question about one of the most important health care initiatives to be undertaken by this or any other govemment in Canada, important not ooly for the effective delivery of health services in all of the health sectors, but also in terms of the convenience of the patient and the user of the health care system. 1be amouncement yesterday is the culmination of a number of things, Mr. Speaker. Thirty-three requests for information were sent out. Of those, 11 final bids were submitted.

There was a vendor selection committee, and it examined all of the information packages that were sent ouL There was a representative on that committee from the Manitoba Society of Seniors and from the Consumers' Association, as well as the Urban Health Advisory Council and others involved in the selection process. 1be coottact will flow from that infonnation that was made available as a result of the request We will endeavour to make every effort to make as nu:h information as possible available to honourable meolbers. •

(1340) Records Confidentiality Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, with the greatest of respect, I asked two questions: Has the contract been signed. and will the minister table the contract? Both of those questions the minister refused to answer. This is a $100-million investment of the people of Manitoba and SUiely members of this Chamber, partiadarly when the govemment does not have a mandate into the next 18 months-no roe has-would have a copy of this contract so that we can know the legitimacy of the investment the govemment is making.

We have a number of questions dealing with confidentiaHty, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to ask the minister: Will the government be proposing legislation dealing with confidentiality

414 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 of health records? How, for example, will an AIDS patient or a person who sees a psychiatrist be protected in terms of their own confidentiality with a system that seems to have access at unlimited numbers of terminals across the province of Manitoba? Hoo. James McCrae (Minister or Health): Mr. Speaker, with due respect to the honourable Leader of the Opposition, I answered both of his questiaos.

I toldhimtbat we are working towards the completion of a contract and that all information that we are able to make available to the honourable member, we will make available. At this point, we are working with SmartHcalth to arrive at the final contract. With respect to the issue of confidentiality, it is an extremely important question, but in order to ask the questim and maintain one's credibility one has to answer a question or two. For example, what infonnatim is it that the honourable member wants protection for that does not exist now, and from whom?

The more and the better quality of information available to health providers, the better service that will be able to be delivered to the patient, so we need to know. The honourable member referred to a couple of specific instances-psychiatric issues and issues related to AIDS-and the honourable member knows what protections are available to people now. We propose not mly to maintain those protections through this system but to c:ohaDce them So, as the nature of the public health information unfolds and becomes more known to honourable members, these questions will be answered.

In addition, we have taken the step, because I realize and so does evetybody else that patient confidentiality is a fundamental issue and a very important one, that we will have an access and serurity coamittce just like we had when we were setting up the Drug Program Information Network which included organizations such as the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties, so we are very mindful of that as a concem. 1he honourable mcmber opposite seems to have decided that these problems are there and they have not been solved, but he is dead wrong about that, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, my question again to the minister was, does the government intend to bring in legislation to protect the confidentiality of people man information system that has been set up with a subsidiary of the Royal Bank of Canada? The minister did not answer the question whether they have any legislative protection in mind to deal with somc of these very, very sensitive, confidential issues that the public of Manitoba will be asking all of us legitimately over the ncxt period of timc. I would like to ask the minister, under the contract that has not been signed, who owns the information?

Is it the subsidiary of the Royal Bank, the SmartHealth organization? Do they own the information? Do we own the information? Can the minister table today the contractual language dealing with that information, and can the minister table today the legislative policies that must be put in place to protect the confidentiality of people in Manitoba? Mr. McCrae: 1he honourable mcmber seems to wam to preserve a system where people's medical records were fouod in back alleys in the city of Winnipeg, UDder his administration. We want to improve that situation.

Indeed, I do not blame the honourable mcmber for asking these questions because they are perfectly legitimate concerns that he or members of the public would have. The ownership of records, as it stands today, will remain tmdcr the new program. There will be no transfer of ownership of any kind of confidential information. I have no hesitation giving the honourable member whatever assurances are necessary to guarantee that the fimdanmtal principle of privacy of information is respected under this system

~Dnber13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 415 Indeed, it is our understanding of the conttact that we will be entering into, that it will enhance people's rights in tenns of the privacy of information about them •

(1345) Health Sciences Centre Budget Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, more promises that we have to take at face value from this govemmenL My question to the Minister of Health: We have leamod that yesterday the boani of directors of the Health Sciences Centre held an emergency executive meeting to discuss the government's proposed cuts to their budget, which are anticipated to be in the range of $15 million to $20 million for next year. Can the minister confirm that and advise what the status of that is? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): I think it is noteworthy that the honourable member for K.ildonan should have been taken by such a surprise ~y. that we would be announcing a public health information system I have tried at almost every public speaking cogageurnt and in this House and everywhere else to give vecy broad hints that we were heading in that din::ction. It was in the throne speech. as well, so I fiDd it hard to understand why the honourable n:mlber should be taken off guard in the way that he has been. It might be helpful, Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable meDnber took me up on my offer of at least a dozen times now. Come and talk to me. Meet with me. We will discuss the directions we are taking in health. But he consistently refuses, and I suggest it is for less than savoury reasons. The meDnber asked about a meeting at Health Sciences Centre. I was not there. I was not invited, and I can only ask the honourable member to get in touch with the Health Sciences Centre. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister, the question is quite simple. Perhaps the minister can try vecy hard to answer the question.

Can he confirm that they have advised the Health Sciences Centre to expect cuts in the range of $15 million to $20 million next year, which are far in excess of the guidelines released by their chief accountant Jules Benson? Can he confirm that those cuts are going to take place next year and that they have informed the Health Sciences Centre as of yesterday? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, as I understand the rules of this House, the hmourable meDnber should bring information and not seek confirmation from this side of the House. If he has some information that he wants to put on the recotd, let him do that.

A couple of weeks ago the Minister of Fmance (Mr. Stefanson) met with hospital facilities administrators in this province and gave them a preview as to what might be expected for the upcoming fiscal year, and it would not be any surprise to me at all that hospital boanis around Manitoba would be m:etiDg and talking about how they are going to handle their budgets for the upcoming fiscal year. We have worked very closely with the hospitals to assure that our bottom-line concem about paticot care is being taken care of by the hospitals.

We are given assurances by them in the ordinary course of doing business in the Department of Health and in their administrations that that is something that we do not discuss, any negative impact to patients. We will not allow discussion of items that would have a negative impact on patient care. 1bat has been and remains our bottom line. •

(1350) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that anyone in the province of Manitoba believes this govemment when it comes to health care. My final supplem:mary to the minister: Can the minister outline what the impact of the proposed

416 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 cuts to the Health Scicnccs Centre will be on patient care, because proposals that the Health Sciences Centre is considering include contimdng Filmm Fridays and implementing the Connie Curran recommendations even greater than after the election which is when the government planned, et cetera? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, knowing the way the honourable member conducts himself in this House and throughout Manitoba, frankly it does not come as any swprise to me when he says he does not believe me.

But when I tell him and I tell the people of Manitoba that we are spending $500 million more this year on health care in Manitoba than we were spending in 1988, those numbers speak for tbelmelves. When I can show people in Manitoba and the honourable member the amount of money being spent in the community through massive increases to the personal care program, massive increases to the home care program and large increases in the number of procedures being done in this province, those numbers speak for themselves.

If the honourable member does not want to believe the facts and if he does not want to accept my invitation to COIDe and talk about health cue, then I cannot help him any further. Health Sciences Centre Budget Ms. A vis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. The minister indicated today, the emergency meeting that was held at Health Sciences Centre, that there will not be cuts of some $15 million to $20 million.

There have been rumours and innuendo at the Health Sciences Centre for a number of weeks about what the nature of the potential cuts are going to be in the coming number of months. The minister does have a responsibility to set the record straight and, in fact, indicate to Manitobans what has the hospital been directed in team of the amount of money that they have been asked to save, and what was the natme of the emergency meeting. Can the minister indicate to the House? Set it straight. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member seems to attribute to me some confirmation of information. AU I coofimr.d is that the hospitals have met with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) to discuss in a general way the budgetary direction. I think that is also set out to some extent in the Speedl from the Throne, which points vecy, vecy clearly to a shift to the conmmity, Mr. Speaker, of health cue spending and priorities. Those are areas that the honourable member repeatedly talks about in this House, urges the govemment to build a bigger and better oommmity infrastructure, and that is exactly what we are doing.

The past number of budgets in Manitoba demonstrate that very clearly, as do the services that are being provided for people in Manitoba show, as the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluatic:n confirms and bears out, that the ImVeS that are being made are showing a great deal of foresight and respect for the care of our fellow Manitobans. Ms. Gray: Wtth a supplementary question to the Ministec ofFmance: Will the Minister of Finance then indicate to this House what the nature of the disaJssioos have been with the hospitals in regard to their upcoming budgets? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Wb:n we met with the boaids and the CEOs of the hospitals and the personal care homes, Mr. Speaker, we provided a total allocation for 1995- 96 of$1.2 billim, the same amount of money as is being provided in 1994-95 for hospitals, personal care homes and conmnmity health centres here in Manitoba. Individual facilities are now recetvmg the detailed information in terms of what their allocation is, but I can mly remind members of the

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 417 Liberal Party and members of this House that we here in Manitoba spend the highest percentage of our budget oo health cue of any govemmcnt in all of Canada at 34 percent. We have the third highest per capita allocation for health cue, Mr. Speaker, and the budget consultation processes that we have been going through over the last weeks, Manitobans are telling us then: is lots of moo.ey in the system. The focus has to be how that mooey is being spent and to address the shifts in the commmrlty, as our Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) has outlined, shifts to home cue, shifts to personal cue homes and so on. That is exactly what is being done with the allocation of rcsomces, Mr. Speaker, in terms of meeting the needs of Manitobans. •

(1355) Health Care System Nursing Services Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): With a final supplementary to the Minister of Health, the minister omst be aware that in order to ensure appropriate commmity-based services, you cannot starve the hospital system. Nurses at the reception yesterday at MARN, at which a number of members were there, have indicated that they cannot afford to have nmsing services in the hospitals cut any further.

Can the minister at least indicate to the House today, with the changes to funding that will be affecting the hospitals, can the minister assure us and nurses and Manitobans that, in fact, nmsing services will not be jeopardized in our hospital system? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, we have taken a very, very cueful approach to staffing realities and needs at our acute-care centn:s in Manitoba. We have spent a good deal of time studying that, along with the Manitoba Association of Registered Nmses, the Manitoba Association of Licensed Pmctical Nurses, the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

I was at the MARN ~on last evening as well. I had a very nice time with the nurses there. We talked about important issues such as nurse managed care, which is one component of the kind of shift that the honourable Minister of F'mance (Mr. Stefanson) was talking about. Because we are making that shift, Mr. Speaker, the Minister ofF'mance and my colleagues are able to make available funds so that we can establish nurse-managed care centres in Manitoba.

That is something we are proud to work on with the Manitoba Associalioo ofRegistered Nurses so that we can develop that and develop commmrlty development programs and preventive and health promotion programs in various communities in Manitoba. Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Recommendations Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

In a new decision under 1he Law Enforcement Review Att a judge has again chastised this government for failing to act on the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry repon. in particular the key n:coJllDlCmilation that the minister establish an investigation body which is independent from police forces, to look into serious acts alleged against the police. This recommendation of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report was based on the unfortuoate experience in the Harper case. This tim: the judge found that the Brandon police were prmc to adjust their evidence and did not proceed appropriately.

My question is: Would the minister commit finally now to put in place an independent process to investigate serious complaints made against police forces in this province? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the specific case which the member refers to is me that I am not able to discuss. It is a case possibly still before the courts and therefore, as the member

418 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 knows, entirely inappropriate to bring before this House and to discuss at this time. In terms of our initiatives in aboriginal justice, this government has made significant prog~ess in the area of aboriginal justice initiatives, right from the policing and through the courts area, through the probation area and corrections. As the member knows, at the moment we do have LERA which operates to investigate concerns of the public. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, nothing is more appropriate than raising that case in this Legislatme.

She cannot hide behind some phoney rules of this House. This is the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report. 1be minister has never seen this. My question is: Given that we have increas ingly heard from residents of northern Manitoba, particularly from Olief Geordie Little, from the MK.O, that yes, you have serious backlogs in the courts in Winnipeg-but up here in the North nothing compares to the delays. Mr. Speaker: Is there a question here, please? Mr. Mackintosh: Given that we are aware c:l one-and-a-half-year waits for trial- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. 1be honourable member for St.

Johns, with your question, sir. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, given that we are told of waits of up to three years for court trials in the North, my question to the minister is: Would the minister now immediately review the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report and put in place the recommendations to ensure swift justice for northern Manitobans? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure which rules he has tefeJied to as phoney rules of this House, but I would be very interested if the member for St. Johns would make himself clear about which rules he believes are phoney rules of this House.

As the member knows, again, there are rules which govern as Attorney General things which I cannot speak about. One is a case before the court. In terms of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, this government, and I as minister, most certainly am familiar with the recommendations.

So let me begin by telling the member and reminding him of some of the issues which we have addressed and are addtessing very thoroughly, right from the policing end when we are looking at entering into First Nations policing agreements, through aboriginal court WOlkcrs, through negotiations and cnrcriDg into comnnmity participation agreements and in C()ID11Dmities the naming of aboriginal magistrates within communities as well. Mr.

Speaker, the member continues to speak about what he calls court delays, and he continues to give information which is simply not cortecL I would like to be able to take the opportunity to correct him and let him know exactly the length of time. •

(1400) Mr. Mackintosh: I would like to know what recommendations this minister has implemented. Mr. Speaker. My question to the minister is: Would the minister now confirm what is one of the blackest clouds over this government that despite a little activity following the by-elections last year, this govemment has now walked away from even any framewmk discussions to put in place the Aboriginal Justice recommendations, that this minister has said no to aboriginal peoples and no to justice, Mr. Speaker? Mrs. Vodrey: What a ridiwlous comment that is, and the member knows full well, as do Manitobans.

This govemurnt, and again let me start from the beginning, spoke when the federal Liberal govemmcnt came into power on behalf of our government. I made a trip to Ottawa to confirm

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 419 with the federal minister tbat they were prepared to proceed with the First Nations policing policy. When I had that infOIIDation and confirmation from the federal minister on a Thmsday, arrived back in Winnipeg by a Friday, we had our negotiators in the air going to aboriginal C()IDDDmiries to negotiate First Nations policing agreements by Sunday evening. We have acted very quickly.

We have had some difficulty with the federal Liberal government in terms of their commitment to the court process; however, in areas where we are able to act on our own in Manitoba the naming of aboriginal magistrates, the movement towards commmity participation agreements for corrections, we have done so. We have a very significant record Education System Physical Education Ms. Marianne CeriiH (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, we have letters, we have petitions, we have reports fr<m community organizations, urging this govemm:m to n:consider its proposal to eliminate physical education from the high school core amiculum.

We now know tbat me of the govemment's own health committees bas also n:cOITJillC'.I'K'I to inacase physical education right through to Grade 12 as a required course. I would like to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) why he is brushing this off and saying it is not a Health issue and brushing it off with letters ~nding the Minister of Education deal with this when his own health advismy committees are rec~g an increase in physical education for school children in Manitoba. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the member is in error. The Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) and indeed this whole government is not brushing off those statements that were made and take them very, very seriously. That is why the very essence of the curriculum and the core subject areas from Grades 1 to 8 will include, of course, compulsmy physical cducatiro. Indeed, compulsory from nine to 12 will occur in those schools also where the parents accept their responsibility and judge acconfingly, and I am sure in virtually every school in the province of Manitoba physical education will be compulsmy.

The very essence of the reforms are trying to take 12 years of literacy training and trying to compress them into 10, and to give students a greater opportunity to practise in the field of technology, practise in the field of skills training and to put into place vocational education, co operative education outside of the school. StucbJts tbat are going to take

part in that have to have s~ greater flexibility. So this government and certainly I know the Minister of Health does not disagree in any fashion with those statements made. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, the minister should know there are studies that show academic teaming increases whc:n students participate in physical education. I am going to table a letter addressed to me where the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) refers my correspondence to the Minister of Education saying, it is not a Health issue, it is an Education issue.

I would like to ask the minister if he bas recoDlDY'.I'Ided or made the recommendation from his advismy committee known to his cabinet and to his Minister of Health, and if he bas not done this on this aucial important issue to the health of Manitoba childrl:n and }'OUth. why he bas not made the n:c()11JII1Cildation known- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member bas put her question. Mr •. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I accept, and I know the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) accepts, all of the comments made by the research leading to this.

The g(JVCIDID"Jlt totally accepts that, and that is why of course we would sense that parent councils in the 800 schools in Manitoba will also accept those statements.

420 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 Ms. Cerilli: My final supplementary is to the Minister of Health. I would ask him if be would not at this time acknowledge that this is a critical preventative health issue for young people in Manitoba and if he will raise the issue in cabinet so it can be discussed and reconsidered. Hoo. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Health, and I think all of my colleagues, we have ucver said anything but that physical education for young people is extremely important. Hog Industry Marketing System Mr.

Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, some weeks ago, as the Minister of Agricultme (Mr. Eons) referenced a few days ago, I was at a meeting with him and with the hooourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) regaiding the hog industry and the n:cent n:port of Mr. Moon: and Mr. Gilson that was provided to the minister. There has been quite a lot of discussion amongst the hog producing industry. There an: some 2,300 of them in this province. There is a lot of concem about what the minister's intentions an: with respect to that report.

At the very least, the hog producers made the very strong statement that they felt they had not been adequately included in the consultation process. Can the minister clarify today for members of the House and for the industry what his intentions an: with respect to the key recommendation of that n:port which is to move away from the single-desk marketing system to a dual marketing system, Mr. Speaker? Can he clarify what his intentions an:, what the process is in his office with respect to that report? Hon. Harry Eons (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for the question.

Let me first of all acknowledge the fact that Manitoba hog producers an: going through a difficult pricing period with respect to some cmrent oversupplies in the North American red meat market. That I think is their first and imtnetiiate concem at this point in time. I just )atelday met with the chairman, Mr. Ken Foster, of Manitoba Pork. along with members of his board, to deal with that very specific issue of concem to hog producers in the province. Mr.

Speaker, the major recommendations-and then: an: many that an: included in the report that is referred to by the Leader of the third party include the recognition that other changes taking place in agricultme, notably the disappearance of the support for the movement of grain and feed prices out of Manitoba, place a particular onus on Manitoba and en the Department of Agricultme to provide whatever it takes for continued livestock expansion in the province.

One of the recommendations has been that Manitoba POlk and pork producers in the industry should look at a freer and mote flexible marketing system n:ferred to, as the member indicated, as a dual marketing system That and many other conditions an: being seriously considen:d by this government. •

(1410) Mr. Edwards: Well, Mr. Speaker, no doubt it is being seriously considered by the govemmcnt. My further question for the minister: I am glad to hear that be met with Mr. Foster, I believe be said yesterday. What is the process which the minister is going to embadt on to expand, Mr. Speaker, the cin:le of consultation, and, in particular, to include the some 2,300 independent hog producers in this province, who made it very clear that they felt they had been left out of the consultation process leading up to the report?

What is the process, if any, that the minister and Manitoba Pork and others have agn:ed upon to further expand the consultation process to the some 2,300 producers in this province, who have made it clear, I believe in some significant

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 421 numbers, that they feel they would like the opportunity to give further advice to the minister before be takes the precipitous act of doing away with the current marketing system? Mr. Eons: Mr. Speaker, allow me to vexy quickly com:ct the impression just left ·by the honourable member for St.

James, the Leader of the third party, that there has been no suggestion contained in the report that he refers to or by any comments that I have made about doing away with the present system What we have talked about is adding some flexibility to this system I reject, secondly, that we have not consulted with Manitoba hog producers. In the vexy first instance, Manitoba Pork is duly elected, with members who are represented from all hog producers in the province of Manitoba. They were the vexy first and have been conrinnaJJy cmsultcd through this process. h is no difli:m:ll than.

I suppose, if the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) or the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) meets with the leadership of the duly elected people representing the nurses or the teachers or the school ttustees in dealing with matters of concem in his department. In addition to that, as the member can attest to himself, as indeed the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk) can attest to, I have accommodated by myself and my staff being present at any and all meetings where hog producers choose to gather, as they did in Grosse Isle in large numbers, as they did at Hog and Poultty Days the other day at the Convention Cmtie and as they have dme in Altona and will be doing throughout the province. Mr. Speaker, I ooly gain in meeting with the primaiy producers of Manitoba where and whenever it occms. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, no doubt they, as Manitoba Pork, at evexy one of those meetings, have made it absolutely clear to this minister that it is by no means clear to them, that there needs to be the type of significant change to the marketing system to achieve the type of growth the minister is talking about. The reality is, pork production has doubled in the last 15 years under this current marketing scheme. Has the minister made up his mind already, Mr.

Speaker, that single-desk marketing needs to be saapped to achieve fiuther growth?-because that is by no means clear to the members of this party nor to the 2,300 producers out there. Mr. Eons: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the attention that my colleague the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) is paying to this important aspect of agriculture. Let me also put m the record, it was a visionaxy and aggressive Minister of Agriculture who now sits in this Olamber as Minister of InchJstry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) that said a little over a decade ago: Let us tty to double the hog production in Manitoba.

I congratulate the hog producers of Manitoba. They have done that and provided thousands of jobs while they have done that. Mr. Speaker, not wanting to be satisfied with the status quo we are facing some particular dlallenges which I mentioned: the disappearance d the WGTA, the tremendous new trade opportunities that the international trade obligations that our countiy has entered into has opened up doors for us in Japan, in Olina, in Korea, in Indmesia, not to speak of our immediate neighbours to the south.

All of these reasons indicate the necessity for addressing the opportunities in the pork industty, and they are so being addressed by this report. Natural Gas Rural Manitoba Ms. Rosann Wowcbuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, another issue that is vexy important to rural Manitoba is the expansion of natural gas. The Minister of Fmance (Mr. Stefanson), in his prebudget coosultatim nr.eting last year, indicated

422 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 that this was one of the important issues that was raised However, the announcement has not become a reality, and the expansion has nm into difficulties because of the high requilemcnt c1 sign-up rate in residentiaL Even though it has been reduced there are still problems with it. My question is to the minister responsible for the process of expanding natural gas through rural Manitoba.

What steps is this govemment going to take to c:o.sure that there is an expansion of natural gas into rural Manitoba so we can have the economic growth that we desperately need there? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I can certainly assure the member for Swan River that this govemment has taken every possible action to try and encourage conmu:rides who have worlced with Centra Gas to get the necessary sign-ups to enter into agreements so that natural gas can be extended into those commmities. Mr.

Speaker, we set a fairly aggressive agenda out when we signed the ~nt with Centra and with the CQ1llDllmitic:s in a partnership with the fedeml govemment, our own provincial government and with municipalities to try and expand natural gas into many of the rural cQTDITilmities in Manitoba. Of those communities, Mr. Speaker, I uodcrstand there are about eight that are now ready to go, and others are looking towards an opportunity in the very near future to have the necessary numbers signed up to get expansion going into their commmities. Ms.

Wowchuk: But I asked the minister what steps is this government taking to aggressively promote the expansion of natural gas. We have seen ads that promote the REDI grants and grants to small businesses, but are they doing anything to aggressively promote the expansion of natural gas, or are they leaving it all in Centra's hands? This is an important project. You have said it is important. What are you doing to promote- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, seveml things have happened in the course of the natural gas expansion.

First of all, there was an agreement signed with Centra Gas and with the CQ1llDllmities that were identified for the expansion of natural gas. Secmdly, this govemment has put in a significant IUDIJlJDt of DDJCY into the expansion of natural gas into the rural CQ1llDllmities that do not have it.

Thirdly, we do have personnel within the Department of Rural Development and also Energy and Mines who have worlced with conmmities and cmrirDJe to do that and also from the infrastructure secretariat who continue to work with conmmities in making sure that we have the necessary sign-ups addressed Meetings are going m almJst daily to encourage people to sign up and to make this project a success in all the CQIDID!mities that have been identified. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, since the Oean Fnvirmment Commission rec(1DJITiellCic:d that the R10 emission conttols be put into the Louisiana Pacific plant, and to have that RTO operate, we need to have natural gas into the area. Will the government talk to Centra Gas to ensure that the amount of gas used by Louisiana will be takm into consideration, since that amount is equivalc:ot to that which is needed in the town of Swan River? That has to be taken into consideration in this expansion. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, it is nice to see the member for Swan River now stand up and give her support to Louisiana-Pacific.

Unfortunately, that has not always been evident from the members opposite. We know, Mr. Speaker, that Louisiana-Pacific is an important member in the use of natural gas, and that certainly will be taken into account when the project is being idmtified and being worked on in the commmities of Swan River and Minitonas.

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 423 Air Safety Dauphin, Manitoba Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, on Monday, tbe Transportation Safety Board called into question Transport Canada's ability to ensure air safety. In June, tbe federal Liberal government's transport department closed the flight services statioo at Dauphin airport, throwing some six staff out ofworlc. lbese six people were replaced with automatic environmental services, equipment which was found to be faulty in both Edmonton and Montreal. My question is for tbe Minister of Transportation.

Has this minister received any notice from tbe federal Liberal govemmcnt or Transport Canada conceming the problems with the AES system? What action does he intend to take to correct the potential air safety problem? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of mghways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, my understanding is tbe A WOS equipment that tbe member is referring to is used in some 50 locations across Canada. In two locations that he has mentioned, I think Edmonton and Montreal, some problems were found with the equipm:.nt. They are aware of those problems. They are working on them.

There is ooly one location in Manitoba where that equipment is currently in place, and that is Dauphin. We are not aware of any safety problems as a result of it. I want to assure the member, we are going to k=p a close eye on Transport Canada with regard to whether they do adequately address the issues that they have identified with tbe equipment they have in place. It is not a significant issue at this time, but in large airports certainly Transport Canada is taking the right action. •

(1420) Northern Manitoba Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I believe this is tbe ~ equipment that is now going to be used in both Norway House, Berens River and Island Lake airports. I want to ask this minister if be has determined whether or not this is indeed tbe same equipment that has been found to be faulty. What action does he plan to take to ensure the safety of the travelling public and the aircraft operations in nortbem Manitoba? Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, the member has identified that equipment is to be put in place.

It is equipment for atmospheric environmental activities, and we are working with Transport Canada to ensure that air safety is paramount in this province as we want it also to be across Canada.

Rccmt comments that came out, as the member migbt have noticed in today's paper, are reason for grave cooa:m, that there is some problem between Tnnsport Canada and the safety board with regard to air safi:ty in this province-a very serious issue which we are going to ask tbe federal minister to take bntncoAiate action on to be sure that the cost rutting that the federal Liberal government is now doing does not in any way impede with adequate consumer safety in the air in Canada. Mr. Speaker: TllDC for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONESPEECHDEBATE (Eighth Day of Debate) Mr.

Speaker: On the adjomned debate, the eighth day of debate, on the proposed motion of the hmourable JllCIDbcr for Emerson (Mr. Penner), for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant Govemor, in answer to his speech at the opening of the session.

424 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13. 1994 Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker. I appreciate fully that the hOW' is drawing quickly to a close in this particular debate and there are many members of this House who wish to speak on it I will be making a rather unusually brief speech in this House today to accommodate other members. 'Ihere are a few particular matters that I would like to touch upon. Before I do that.

I would like to pay a particular tribute to two of my colleagues who have announced to date that they will not be standing for ~e-election: my colleague from cabinet the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme) and J.\.U..A for Riel and also my good fricDd the member fur Tmtle Momrtain (Mr. Rose). Both of these gentlemen I have come to know well as we served in this place together.

I have a gteat deal of respect for both. 'Ibe member for Riel was one of my mentors in the days between my first election in 1986 in which I was not successful. when I first got to know him as a 1Cilow candidate. and my election to this House in 1988. He has been a good friend and mentor in that particular period. The member fur Tmtle Mountain (Mr. Rose). he and I have gotten to know each other very well. and he has always brought to OW' discussions on any issue a gteat deal of insight that comes from a lifetime of experience that is so valuable. particularly to me as a younger member.

I can say with gteat sadness that be wm be missed in OW' caucus and in this Ownber. To both members. I wish them well in their future endeavOW'S. and I hope that they are not strangers to drop into this House and drop by on many occasions to spend some time with us. Mr. Speaker. I would also like to take the opportunity to welcome everyme back. tepeat some of the COIDIJlCnts members have put on the record to date. It is always good to be back in this Chamber to discuss the issues of our province.

Two partiallar matters that I wanted to touch on with ~elation to my constituency. one a matter of which I amtmSt proud. proud of the work done by my coostitucDls over a three-and-a-half-year period and that of oourse was the buyout of the Pine Falls paper mill which was coocludcd on LabOW' Day of this year with the formal transfer of ownership fran the Abitibi-Price corporation to the management and employee-owned company. the Pine Falls paper company. It was a very proud day for my constituents and for all of us who were involved in that particular matter.

When we celebrated with a dinner in Pine Falls. some 1.200 to 1,300 people were in attendance and me could feel the confidence of the people in that room in their pride and belief in tbem;dves in taking over that operation. That was a pretty large undc:rtaking for that group of people. a luge undertaking in that. for 60 to 70 years of the histmy of this mni. they have been part of SOIIlCOOC else's company. and now they have taken the gteat step of buying the mill and operating it themselves.

I am pleased to teport to this House that all indicatims from their first months of operations in my discussions with the chief executive officer of that company are that they are doing well and are ahead of

schedule and that the confidence the people of Manitoba have placed in them in providing a tepayable loan wm certainly not be wasted. In fact. I suspect that they wm be a very significant taxpayer to the people of Manitoba in the years ahead. I was very proud and honoured to have had an opportunity to play a role in that particular buyout. When I think back over the thiec and a half years that we wete involved in it. I think of the very tough issues with which we had to deal.

I know some members of this Ownber on the opposite side of the House may not be pleased with our success. but I think the vast majority c:t Manitobans. in fact. I believe that the majority of m::rmc:rs in tbis Owd:ler are pleased that we wete able to succeed in this particular venture. Mr. Speaker. I would also on that note like to thank a llUIDber of my colleagues for their support and effort. the former Minister of Natural

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 425 Resoura:s, my colleague from Emerson as well as particularly the member for Lakeside (Mr. Eons) in his service as MinisterofNatural Resources and of course the Minister of Industry and Trade (Mr. Downey), all of whom did~ service over the years in putting this particular deal together. Mr.

Speaker, in my constituency pemaps one of the greatest cballenges that I face as MLA and we as a commm:rity face and certainly as a province face will be over the next few years, perhaps in a shorter time frame than we expect, the securing of the futwc of the Atomic :Energy of Canada site at Whiteshell.

Needless to say, the election of a federal Liberal government in the general election of last year which held the hope and promise for many in my coostitucncy of a Ienewed commitment to that site and to the IDJclear option for Canada has been somewhat dashed by a continuation teally of the layoffs that have been them. It gives a great deal of wony to us as a commmity as to whete ABO. will be in the future of federal funding.

I am confident at this stage that the ~nt govcrnnx:nt will have a role for that coipOiation in its scieoce fimding, but my particular concem, and we as Manitobans should shale this concern, is, what will be the future of the Whiteshell facility, which employs some 1,000 people in our province, many in Wmnipeg, from Wmnipeg to Pinawa, that makes a major financial contribution in tax and other payments within our province? As I look ahead over the next few years, the mal dtaJJenge for us as a commuoity is, and I hope and I am coofident at this stage that my federal Liberal colleague Mr.

Iftody, the member of Parliament, will be able to work with us as a community and I know there is a good will there amongst us to be able to achieve a success that we as a c()TDDJ!mity, all of us who mpresent that COIDDIDlity, all of us who are part of that community and certainly with a role for us as a larger provincial commmity will be able to ensure that Whiteshell Laboratories have a role, a continued significant role in the provincial economy of our province.

Thete are many opportunities there for future economic development and growth for other industry in Manitoba to take advantage of woik that is dooe at the Whiteshell site, and it would be a shame not ooly to my area but certainly to the whole province to lose that facility. As I look to the next tew years in political life as the MLA for Lac du Bonnet, that has to be, I think, probably one of if not the most pressing issues facing my part of the world.

I will be looking to other members of this House, my colleagues and to members of the opposition party for their support from time to time as we try to tackle this difficulty together. Mr. Speaker, my time is drawing somewhat short, but I would be temiss, as Minister IeSpODSible for Nortbcm and Native Affairs, not to make a few comments about the very historic signing that took place in Winnipeg last week between the FJI'St Nations of our province and the federal government.

I would like to say this, at this time, that I have been asked many times in the media, why was the province not involved in these negotiations?

I know some of my colleagues opposite who have had. in other days, roles as chiefs of First Nations and have a very intimate understanding of this issue appreciate the fact that the telationship that is being discussed is a telationship between the federal Crown based on treaty and those First Natims, and that the relationships and delegations of authority and traosfers of authority and issues of jurisdiction are matters that have to be determined between the Government of Canada and, I would suggest, the Parliament of Canada and the First Nations. •

(1430) I say to members opposite, as I have said in some of the press interviews that I have had, that ooe diffirulty that I foresee in this process, and not ooe that is hard to oveiCome, is that many of the issues that Mr. Irwin, the federal minister, will want to deal with that are laid out for discussion

426 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 and planning in this framewmk agreement will require legislation in the federal Parliament. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Clair) I am somewhat surprised by a position the fi:dcral minister took with myself and my colleague the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) when we m::t with him in Ottawa this fall, where he indicated that the Prime Minister has said to him that he should not come to Parliament with am::ndments, that he must do this without acts of Parliament to accomplish what he wants to accomplish.

I have said publicly that the type of transfers and dlanges that are cantemplated by the First Nations and Mr. Irwin, if they require legal authority, then it is Mr.

Irwin's duty to take those changes to the Parliam::nt of Canada, that he should not expect the Province of Manitoba, the First Nations or anyooe else to be able to act solely with administrative agrcoa • r:nts widwut dealing with the issues of authority in jmisdiction, which can only be dealt with by the Parliament of Canada So my first advice and my first co1llllk:nt to the federal govemmcnt at this tim: is that they will have to ultimately, if they wish to accomplish and meet the expectatioos that are there among the First Nations people, be prepared to face the Parliament d.

Canada and do what they want to do in the proper fashion. With respect to the Province of Manitoba, we have not been involved in these negotiations or diswssioos, nor, quite fraokly, in my opinion, was it right that we were because they were not issues with which we have jurisdiction or responsibility.

The First Nations have clearly said that, and we certainly acknowledge it I can tell this House that I as minister have had s~ discussions with the Grand Olief, and there is a n::cognition that the province has a role to play in certainly sam: areas where we already provide certain services O.iJd and Family Services, for example; in Education where we provide amiaJJ.um-that the First Nations will be looking to us for s~ agrr.en mts, to share information, to be able to provide om expertise io those particular areas. I certainly can say today that there is a willingness to do that.

We, Manitoba, will certainly live up to our constitutional and legal requirements. Again, it will be up to the federal Parliament and the minister to make the transfers of jmisdiction which he intends to do by going to the Pariiam::nt of Canada and not expecting this government or this province to assist in simple administrative mangements to do what he should be doing by act ofParliam:nt I think that is the route he will have to take. I would encourage him to recognize that filet, and the Prime Minister to recognize that fact, to give full effi:ct to what they have discussed with the First Nations.

Madam Deputy Speaker, one last comment that I make in this particular area as my tim: grows very short and I say this to all concemed, to the public generally, that what is important is that whatever dollars are being spent io this process that better value be obtained. t.ntimately, in a province like Manitoba, when we look at our greatest health needs, educational needs, training needs for example, many lie in the most remote parts of om provinces, and if this process is able to improve the life of people by getting better use of dollars that are spent now, then it is certainly a worthwhile process.

I know there is concem in SOlD:: F"trst Nations. The member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) made som:: reference to the Northern Economic Developm::nt report. I just say to him that one of the rec(1DJIJlC':Tidations of that report was the settle11121t of Northern Flood and the settlement of Treaty Land .Eotitlem::nt. In terms of Northern Flood, we now hav~ four comprehensive agreements in the works with the five bands involved and have made more progress on it in the last number of~ under the direction of the Honourable Jim Downey than we have at any time in the history of this province.

Secmdly, m Treaty Land Eotitlem::ot, which is a federal responsibility, we are to provide

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 427 uncx:aipied Crown land as required. and we work with the federal government in that process. We have made again more effort in settlement and more progress towards settlement than has been done in the past I was pleased to be part of the signing at the Long Plain Fust Nation as well as in the Island Lake area last year, and these are firsts. I think there is interest and mum progress and there are going to be very interesting times in the next months and years ahead My time has drawn to a close, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I look forward to having the opportunity to speak in the Budget Debate. Thank you. Introduction of Guests Madam Deputy Speaker: I would like to draw the attmlim of all hmourable members to the loge to my right, where we have with us this aftemoon J. Frank Jobnstm, the foan:r member for Sturgem Creek. ••• Mr.

Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to be able to rise and make some comments on this very historic event, historic in a way that it is the sixth throne speech that we have listened to, that we have bad presented to us here in this Ownber-six fairy tales, six story books, that we have had the opportunity to read Before I continue, I would certainly like to add my congratulations to the new Pages, wish them well, and to the Oerk and his staff.

It has been quite an opportunity to work with the Oerk and his staff, and I certainly do appreciate iL I look forward to working with the Oerk and his staff in many years to come. I would like to also just add my congratulations and my best wishes to the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose) who has decided not to continue, not to seek re-election in this upcoming spring electim.

I would just like to say I wish him and his family and his wife all the very, very best It has been very nice to have the opportunity to speak to the honourable member on many occasions and have our little laughs and have our disaJSsions at times and exchange little anecdotes and just a good time with the member, and I wish him well. Also, to the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Ducharme) who had announced some time ago that he was not going to seek re-election and that he was planning on setting up a retirement home and do the things that he really likes to do, and that is, call out "fore" whenever he has the opportunity. I know that he will enjoy himself down south dming his retirement I know that he and his wife will enjoy the many years that are left to them to golf, as I mentioned before. I will never forget, and the minister knows what I mean by that, but I wish him and his wife and family very, very well. •

(1440) Also, I never had an opportunity to really say some nice things about the previous member for Flin Flon, taking on his new position in August. I m.JSt say that the previous member for Flin Flon was like a brother, like a leader to myself and some of the others who were elected in 1990, who guided us. He guided me an awful lot, and when there was s()ID"Jhing I did not understand he would always be there to explain it, and off to the side we would have our walks at noontime, go for lunch.

I picked up a lot DJOle from him during that period of time than a whole day in here and trying to understand what was going on. ADd. of course our member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman}, definitely a good man. It was like he and the previous member for Flin Flon were like salt and pepper shakers on each side of the table. You could either go to one-if you wanted some real infOimation, you went to one in confidence, and if you wanted something else you went to the other. So I wish the honourable member for Dauphin and his family the very best in their endeavours and in future, to their children, and I wish them well.

428 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ~olber13, 1994 Since 1990, I think, as I said earlier. we have had six throne speeches. six fairy tales. as I may call them at times. I strongly believe. Madam Deputy Speaker. wb:n I brought the throne speech home to go over it. I asked my son to read it. Well. he took about 2 minutes. and said. Dad, I get a lot IOOre out of reading my science book than I am getting out of reading the throne speech. and I do not know how you are even going to talk about it. Well. it will be difficult because it has nothing to it.

So what I will do and attempt to do is just bring to light some of the issues that are in the Interlake constituency which I have been proud to represent for the last four and a half years. and hopefully will be thete for another four years and another four years and another four years representing the C(10ltlDmity of Interlake. It has been a pleasure. I have learned an awful lot in the four )\Z'S·plus that I have been involved, a tough learning process from the beginning, like all new members have, but I think as issues come up. as constituency WOik comes up. you pick up more and mote.

The more you pick up the more you get. and the more you get the tougher it gets. Issues and constituency work and the diffen:nt problems that we have out in the province come to you in one way or another. It has been a great leaming experience in trying to deal with some of these problems that are out there, Madam Deputy Speaker. whether it be in health care. whether it be in educatioo, whether it be job creation. whether it be drainage.

A few positive things that I would like to compliment the constituents on, through their initiative, is the FISher Branch community board which has worlccd so very hard in the last four years to have a personal care home boUt in their area. something that is very dear to me too. as I know that the comanmity that I reside in has attempted and has been working very hard in attaining a personal care home in Riverton. Now. we had the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) come to Riverton to explain his side of things.

I DI1St say that we all felt that the minister was not as well prepated as he should have been when he came to addtess the people. but I think that with the continued hard work of our comanmities in FISher Branch and the people in FISher Branch and the people in Riverton that we will be able to acbieve full personal care homes for these two communities. Madam Deputy Speaker. As I presented my resolution that I brought in the last session on behalf of the Riverton personal care home and the people of the colDJD.JDity. as usual comments were made.

It was a nonpartisan attempt to bring forth to the government the need for a persooal care home. not only in Riverton and . area. but also in other C()01tlltmitics that are more concemed with maintaining the livelihoods and m~intaining the ccmomic benefits and maintaining the infrastructure by keeping our seniors near to their families. near to their conummitics and also near to the hearts of everyone that may be involved. We are still plugging along. Madam Deputy Speaker. when it comes to the personal care homes.

I know I spoke to the community from Fisher Branch. not two or three weeks ago. to some members. and they are very gung ho, if I may use the word. that the groundbreaking will be ocaming very sooo. and that, in the meantime. the commmity and committee from Riverton are meeting with the Health people to fwther discuss getting the personal care home in Riverton going as quickly as possible. Madam Deputy Speaker. thete are some disappoilllments in the throne speech. in fairy tale No. 6. Some of those concems were the lack of effort made in addtessing agrirultural issues.

I had an opportunity to meet with my KAP district board executives and. really. the questions that they asked wete some of the questions that we ask here oo wlae the government stands on certain issues. as the marketing board. on the dual marketing attempt to change the hog marketing board. We have met with the hog marketing board. and the consensus in my area and other areas is that they want to m~intain the status quo to a level with an opportunity to change within the structure. not

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 429 necessarily have dual maiketing, have the single marketing, but attempt to change so that the marketing boan:ls will be more available, more constructive for our faunt:rs and for our hog producers in this province. It has not been addressed and why the govemmcnt sits quiet on it, why the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Eons) today did not answer the questions, basically, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that they are worried that they as a govemmcnt want to make changes within the system, but the people in Ibis province, the farmers and the producers in this province do not want to sec a total change and do not want to sec dual marketing in our system. Madam Deputy Speaker, in agricultural issues, I have for four years-four years-asked the then Minister ofNatural Resources and have brought it to the attention of the now-Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Driedger), and the previous Minister of Natural Resources is also with us today, a member whom I have a great deal of respect for, and at times, we have said on this side of the House that, boy, we sure would like to have the old Minister of Rural Development and Natural Resources back at the helm, and that is meant very sincerely. I know that the previous minister, the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), is going to agree with me on this, and that is the Washow Bay project. The Washow Bay project, Madam Deputy Speaker, was a project that came about some six, seven }'C8I'S ago.

Four years ago they completed a certain phase and during the campaign. not knowing a whole lot about the area then, I spoke with some people from the Bifrost c(.lTDDllmjty and area, farmers who said to me, Oif, whatever yru do, whatever }'OU can do, please go to the Minister of Natural Resources and work with the minister to try and continue on to the next phase. Well, the ministry has change and here I come with bells on my toes going to work with the Minister of Natural Resources to get the Washow Bay project next phase going on. But why, why, why? Because it will beoefit the agricultural sdlcmc in that uea.

It will take water off of prime agricultural land. So in the four years I have brought to the attention of the Minister of Natural Resources, when is the minister going to act on the Washow Bay project? An Honourable Member: Did he do anything? Mr. Clif Evans: No, nothing.

As a matter of fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, if I may, on the Washow Bay project, just in April of 1994, the Wasbow Bay project was again brought up to the new minister and in his response-but first of all, I must say that the previous Minister of Natural Resources indicated that as soon as a very major, as he called it, a DBjor project in and around Gim1i was completed, I believe-and we can look in Hansard. I do not have to look in Hansard, bc:cause I I~r that I remember the minister saying Ibis to me, and he said, I do not want to say it too loud.

But as soon as a project in Oimli, a drainage prognunin Oimli be completed, Washow Bay will be seriously considered, very seriously. The minister remembers that It was not once; it was not twice; three times I have brought it up with him. •

(1450) I would just like to read. In 1990-91 some rights-of-way were acquired and culverts installed Rc:nx-mal worlal are intc:oded this summer. That is '90-91. We are in '94. However, capital funds were not appropriated by the Legislature for this project in '91-92, '92-93, '93-94. Although the fCdeia1 g<MmiDCnl has declined to panicipatc in the funding, it is possible that it will qualify UDder the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program which, under current criteria, would ICqUiR: an equal contribution by the municipality.

Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, a project such as this, a project such as the Washow Bay project is of great, great importance to the one area of the Interlake. Has this govemment acted on it in any

430 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 way? Has the govmuncnt met with the mmicipalities to a point of saying, hey, let us see where we can go with it? Let us see where we can get the money. No, and if they have, there has been nothing that has come out of it--as usual. Again, you look at the throne speech, at all the throne speeches, you look at these six faiiy tales that have been presented to us, and you really see smoke and miirors, smoke and mirrors in all six speeches. The drainage problems in relation to Washow Bay and to the other areas are very, very major in the Interlake, very major.

I think most of the casework and the problems that I get from the LOD of Armstrong, from the L0D of0raham1ale and from the R.M. of Bifrost have to deal with the drainage problems that have been ignored. The maintenance has been ignored [interjection] Right. The member for Emerson (Mr. Pc:onc:

r) says for over 25 years. So I have no qualm here whatsoever, and I have said it before and put on rc:cmd that it does not to me-whatever govemmcnt was in place in those 25 years and in the process should have been doing something about maintaining the basic maintenance of our drainage system so that the farmers in our area have no problems with getting crops off, with getting their hay off. For years, fur about three years, I have gone out to the LOD of Qraham1ale to look at issues, and all you see is water in the ditches and water in the fields, Madam Deputy Speaker. Why?

The Water Resources department has been cut back so badly in the last four years there is nobody to do the wodc. There is nobody to do the survey. There is nobody to do the cleanouts.

There is nobody to c:ome out to even look at the issues or look at the problem Natural Resources in my area and in northcm Manitoba and rural Manitoba is a very important department, and it is a department that I feel that, if government is changed and if we have the opportunity to be government, it will be me department that we will address and maintain to the quality that it should be at, and I say that on record and with true meaning to that. Madam Deputy Speaker, another issue that brings me much, mudJ. displeasure was the IIIJilOilDCelml of the ans to the friendship centres.

I was last Tuesday in my community attending a seoiOis Ou:istmas luncheon sponsored by the local Metis Friendship Centre. The director says to me, Clif, this could be the last year that we as a friendship centre will be able to sponsor this Christmas dinner. There is no funding left at all from the provincial government.

Cuts are coming from the federal govemment, more cuts, yet the o "•••ent to me by two people on the board: Why are they spending all this mmey on lottery advertising when they could, in fact, with the amount that it would take, provide funding for friendship centres, which in rural and northern areas are of extreme importance to our commmities?

They provide the type of services and leadership and guidance to our young people who in rural Manitoba are beginning to become a problem when it comes to aime, vandalism and violence. 1be COI"'"''S are, once the friendship centre is gone, the kids in our community will be hanging around the local store, hanging around behind the rink. getting into trouble, Madam Deputy Speaker, getting into IIlischie( s~thing to do, and all they will have to do is go the road of aime, and that is ashame. An Honourable Member: Strange kids around my town hang around me to get inspired. Mr.

Clif Evans: Well, that may or may not be true. I sort of doubt it, but it may or may not be true. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is nothing, and there has not been anything in our books of faiiy tale to be able to provide these kinds of services, maintain them, keep them going. Funds, there are a lot of ftmds, a lot of funds being spent on lottery ads. How many? About $1.5 million, the honourable member says. Now, that would go a lmg way in our friendship centres in our communities and go a long way in

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 431 helping and assisting the communities which have a problem with crime. A very disturbing meeting I had, a call some weeks ago from the RCMP in my area to come and attend a meeting in the community of Ftsher Branch. I thought it was a meeting, knowing that we were going back to session, that it was going to be a meeting on related issues as we came back to session.

No, Madam Deputy Speaker, it was upwards of 60 people, upwards of over 60 people on a bad weather night who came to express their views and concems about the rise in vandalism, the rise in school aim:, the rise in crime in general and violence occurring in and around the Ftsher Branch area, concems of the RCMP, concems of the people.

It is out there. 1be people are saying it is out there, and something has to be done, and I did say in my little address that I felt that it was up to us here, the 57 members, to work together and address the situation, whether it be in Ftsher Branch, in Riverton, Swan River, Winnipeg, anywhere. It has to be addressed. It brings me to a few more issues, Madam Deputy Speaker. This past fall we had the opportunity of hearing a federal standing committee on freshwater fish.

I attended these meetings. 1be fishermen have indicated to me, have said to me that they want to-again, as with the wheat marketing board, as with the hog marketing boaid-maintain it, keep it, improve it, work with it, do with it whatever is possible so that it does not go away. It cannot go away. It is needed. It is needed in my communities. It is needed in other communities, and I am sure the concept is needed in the northem ccmmnmiries.

It was also a pleasure to be in attendance at the announcement when two aboriginal members of the communities, one being in mine, Sam Murdodl, were appointed to the board, something that they were asking for, and it was done. I am sure we will all in the fishing industry work together with Freshwater Fish and maintain the status quo that I had said. •

(1500) Madam Deputy Speaker, the sixth fairy tale talks about distance eel, working towards getting further with distance eel. I say good to that, because distance eel was a concept that was brought in by a gentleman right in my own commmity, Mr. Uoyd Roche, who came to this government many times to get assistance, to get som: help, who went to different departments and diffcrmt people to get help.

Through his diligence and hard work, and others of his group, they were able to open a four-school distance eel program where you could have a teacher teaching math in FlSbcr Brandl, and studems fromArborg, Riverton and Gimli would be able to get their lessons from the teacher teaching in FISher Branch or the teacher teadring in Arborg teaching another course in the other areas. It is a wonderful concept. I do hope that we continue to encourage it and do whatever we can to make it even a better program for our children. Madam Deputy Speaker, I just want to make a few more comments.

I would like to congratulate my bro and my colleagues in the House and the aboriginal ccmmnmiries on the signing of their agreement just last week going towards self government, something that they have long been waiting for. It is a amcept that they will further be diswssing. I kDow that we in fact will do what we can to assist the aboriginal ccmmnmities in adlievD:1g their goal and in doing it in an expedient way so that we may all work and live together, so that we may work together and be together.

I also want to congratulato---and there are many veterans in my cmstituency from my ~eserves who acknowledge the fact that the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickcs) and the member for Rupc:rtsland (Mr. Robinson) were able to pass the resolution through House here to honour the aboriginal people who served in the forces and that we had a day set for them, November 8. I think that, too, is very important for aboriginal comnmnities, and we should work with them, not against them. We should work with them at all times.

432 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 An issue, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I put out a survey on. and that is VL T revenues. I asked my comnmities, talk to tbc hoteliers in my area about VLT revenues. Well, we all know that VLT revenues have increased amazingly in tbc past couple or three years, and we all know that these VLT revenues are coming out of areas, out of conmmiries.

The question out in rural Manitoba is that we could be better serviced with this money being allocated to the education system. to the health system. to the roads in rural northem Manitoba. to maintain and assist with the crime issue in this province and give back more to the people who are putting the money in. Get it back to the corrnmmiries and increase their infrastructure. There are other issues that I would like to discuss, that I would like to talk on as far as the throne speech goes. I think we will have an opportunity during Budget Debate to continue some of the discussions.

But I do want to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I do not know whether any of the honourable members here, I have not read through all or been available to hear first hand some oftbc debate. I do want to say that after four~. I want to offer my congratulations and my love and best wishes to my wife and two c:bildrc:n who have, as a rural member, put up with many, many weeks, days and months being away from home and not being able to see the hockey games, not being able to take the little me swinming.

I think that when we are here battling the battle of battles we should always, in our hearts and in our minds, in the back of our minds, remember the fact that there is the family that is out there. and when we are done here they are still there and waiting and know the fact that you have to go away again and continue to do this to make sure that you are doing the best job that you can do. Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you very III1Ch for the opportunity. Ms.

Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the joys of having the privilege to serve as a member of the Legislative Assembly is that we have opportunities to speak to high school students who tend to come to the Legislature from time to time and have an opportunity not ooly to tour the building and find out about the histocy of this building but actually be observers in the Question Period discussion. Since 1988, when I was first elected, I have oftC"J'Jtbn::s had tbc opportunity to speak to the high school students. I ask them a very important question when I speak to them after Question Period.

I have been asking that question for a number of years. I bad the opportunity this past Mooday to meet with a group of Grade 11 histocy students from Kelvin High School. As usual I asked them the question. what did you think of Question Period. Unfortunately, Madam Deputy Speaker, their answer was the same as the answers have almost always been when I have asked the questi(ll. They said that they found this Chamber vel)' disruptive, that members were, and I quote, rude, obnoxious, interruptive and generally bad mannered. unquote. This is a very sad commentary on Manitoba's Legislative Assembly.

I wonder, what example are we setting for our young people who are tomorrow's future by leaving the impression of a Legislature that breeds such bad habits? 'I'here is no question that the role of the Speaker of the Olamber then is a very difficult one. To cocourage IllCIIlbers to treat each other with honour and dignity and respect. I believe that is something that tbc cum:ot Speaker has tried and attempted to do, and he has done that with vigour and with commitment and certainly with fumness.

I will always remember his remarks about the fact that we are all honourable members and that is something that we should remember. The role as Speaker has certainly necessitated objectivity and faimcss and an ability to make decisions that are to be based on fairness and neutrality and the facts of the situation. not <n partisanship or other less desirous reasons. I would commeod the Speaker for his commitment to the role of Speaker and for doing a job that in fact is a vecy difficult one. I certainly wish him success in his day-to-day decisions.

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 433 I would also wish well the Deputy Speaker, who IDJSt discharge her duties with the same amount of faimcss and ~artiality. and I applaud her efforts. I would welcome back the Oerk of the Legislature and his sta1[ Certainly their assistance with rules and Iegulations and particularly their good sense of humour is very nmch appreciated. As well, thank you to the Hansard staff who nmst have the task of ensuring that our mconlcd word will be part of the history of this province.

Congratulations to the new Pages in this Chamber and as well to the six interns who ate part of the Legislative Assembly tradition. Them is an old saying: Do as I say, not as I do. l'vfy advice to the Pages and to the interns might very well be: Do not do as we say or necessarily do as we do. That may sound like a cynical COIDDa1t, but aside from that I would trust that the interns and the Pages that their experiences will be very positive, will be ~ewuding and in fact valuable as they decide on what their future careers ate going to be.

We mally do appmciate the work that the intcms and the Pages do provide and hope that the cxperiences they will see in a positive light as they move in the future. 'Ibcre ate a munber ofMLAs who ate leaving us before the next election, on a voluntary basis, and I would like to wish each and every one of them well. Them is something to be said for MLAs who decide to not retum. as elected officials on a voluntary basis as opposed to MLAs whose constituents choose for them. I nmst say that I particularly enjoyed the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose), his IeSpoDSC to the throne speech last night.

I did not necessarily agieC with all he said, but that is okay because that is part of the democratic process. I very thoroughly enjoyed his mmarks. It was very good to hear and very nice to hear his C(.lDliDC'.Dts and his perspective over the last number of yeaxs as being a member of the Legislative Assembly. •

(1510) Because my colleague the honourable member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) does not have the opportunity to speak this afternoon, I did want to clarify the record about a situation which was mferenced by the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hiclccs) last evening. It is pertaining to the Metis Veterans Day Wieath-laying ceremony which was held on November 16. At the wmath-laying ceremony, the master of cemmmies mcognized that the honourable member for St. Boniface was not pieSCDt at the celebmtioo and was usually them and not mly has laid wmaths in the past as the member for St.

Boniface but in fact has done that piCVious to that IeSpOOsibility. He did mention the fact that them had been a sudden illness in the member's family and so the member for St. Boniface had asked that his assistant be them to lay the wmath. I think it is true that it was announced, unfortunately, that I would be them mptesenting the party and that was not the case. It certaioly had been ptedctermined that I was at an AIDS benefit luncheon, and I IeCOgnize and I think all members gcoerally J:eCognize that we all have commitments and certainly attempt to honour those as Dllch as possible.

I IeCOgnize and I am SUie thcie WCie excellent Ieasons why all 57 members WCie not able to be at the AIDS benefit event as well. I was very pleased to mp~esent all members of the I.egislatme at that particular event. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted to COI""!Cnt m the gov¢1""*'••'s throne speech. and because of the limited time I thought I would limit ~ CODDDCilts particularly to the atea of health ca~e.

I hope some of my C()1'111DC'.1lts, although some of them may sound a bit critical, I mally do want to focus m what I believe should be some of the suggestims or issues that need to be discussed and need to be thought about as we enter into our health cate IenCwal in the province of Manitoba. First of all, I wanted to talk a little bit about the health mfOim process and health renewal, and I want to relate that to another "r" word, and that "r" word is mgjona1ization. We know that the

434 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 govcmmcnt has decided to move to a system of what they call regionalization of health care services within the province of Manitoba, and certainly we would like to put on the record that if, in fact, one of the main goals for a move to regionalization is that there will be more local control of health care needs by members of a particular commmity, then we support that particular goal of moving to regionalization.

We know already that the Manitoba Health Organizations has spent quite a bit of time oo looking at which rorrrnmities will be part of what regions, and, of course, it is a very difficult task to undertake. Now, I am speaking particularly of the rural and northern areas.

I think, when we talk about the city of Winnipeg, which currently is now one region, that is another entity unto itself, and, in fact, will need some special addressing in terms of what we do with the city of Winnipeg as far as deciding on how we will deliver health care services, not ooly because we deliver those services to the majority of the population in this province who reside within the city limits, but, of course, we also deliver services on a provincial basis to lllCIIJbcrs of our other CQDlDl!mities in rural and northern Manitoba.

I think with regard to the regionalization, I would suggest, and I hope that the minister is currc:ntly doing this, that the minister take partiwlar note of s~ corx:erns that there are with regionalization. One of the issues will relate to what type of structure will be set up in the various regions to deteunine the planning and the policy development of the health care for that region, and who decides oo how IIIlC.b. mmey will be available for what particular services.

I do have some concems with one of the proposals that has been brought forward that will suggest that a regional council will be made up of individuals who will be paid, and that we seem to be moving away from a voluntary component d how we deliver health care services.

I think it is incumbent that we remember that health care delivery in this province in the early 20th Century and, in fact, predating the 20th Century, was delivered by individuals of various religious faiths, and certainly the Jesuits and the Roman Catholic faith did deliver a number of outreach and public health services in the early 20th Century. We know as well that other religious-based organizations-and I think, as an example, of the Mcnnooite Central Committee--bave done a lot of worlc in the area of health care delivery.

They are very concerned, and I know they have expressed those concems to the present minister, about a move away from that voluntary component of delivering health care. I think it would be vecy, very important, when we look at the struttuie of the various regions, that we ensure that we do not totally remove our voluntary component of our local health boards, whctbcr it is a local hospital or a local institution, such as the Eden Mental Health Centre, or a local board that delivers community public health services.

So I think we need to be very careful that, in fact, we ensure that there is the voice of those individuals to be part of the decision making as to what kinds of services get delivered in the various regions. When we look at the city of Winnipeg, that is another ball game. The city of Winnipeg is unique in the sense that it also has tertiary care hospitals as well as rorrrnmity hospitals and a wide variety of nongovernmental organizations who deliver health services. I understand that a number of the community based organizations such as the Village Clinic, Mount Carmel and the Lindenview centre out in St.

James have been told by the govemment that they would like to see them move towards more of a comnnmity-based outreach clinic model. Although I think there is s~ value in that type of move, I think what is missing in the process is a real information sharing. We have s~ organizations such as the Village Clinic who know a little bit. We have government civil servants who are public health nurses and in other areas who know some of what seems to be

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 435 going on. We have hospitals in the city who seem to have a different idea as to what should occm. We have members of the Legislative Assembly who have not had an opportunity to really see what the particular plan is and what is envisioned in teiiDS of what kind of health care services will be delivered within the city of Winnipeg.

I think we need to see what that plan and that vision is, what the goals are within that so there can be an orderly reform of the health care system and it can be determined what kinds of services should be delivered, by which various organizations, and in which communities. I think that is muddled right now and is not very clear. It may be clear to the minister and to the deputy minister, but it is not clear to the rest of Manitoba. I think we need to know that information so we can be part of the renewal process and not just stand here and criticize.

I would ask the minister to take those comments into consideration. The other point about regionalization is, it would appear that some of the regions are further ahead than other regions in teiiDS of deciding how they want to set up their structure of delivering health care services. My Leader and myself had an opportunity to meet a couple of weeks ago with Lairy Todd, the executive director of the Brandon General Hospital. He laid out for us what Westman is looking at in teiiDS of their structure. It may be different than what some of the other regions are looking at.

Again, I would suggest to the minister as a positive suggestim, we hope that the minister will encowage some flexibility in teiiDS of those regional structures and how they look. because if the bottom line in teiiDS of delivering health care services is met and if some of the guiding principles are certainly met by the various regions, if they have a different structure than another region but feel that they can deliver that service, then let us let them try that and let us have some flexibility in the system.

One of my other concems as well in this whole system of regionalization is that we still, as a govemmcnt, have not dealt with the issue of dual jurisdictions of delivering public health services. We still have the city of Winnipeg delivering public health services in some parts of the city and we have the province delivering some of those services. •

(1520) I had the opportunity to see some internal donmrnts from the city of Winnipeg, two reports which v.oere dale that looked at that very issue, the city of Winnipeg and the provincial government and how services v.oere delivered. In fact, although they did not come up with the recommedation as to who should deliver service, they certainly were very clear on the recommendation that only me jurisdiction should be delivering the service. So we already have a report that suggests that there should not be duplicatim, and two service deliverers, the City of Winnipeg and the province. There should only be one.

I think it is incumbent upon this government to address that particular issue, because if you have a rommmity outreach program such as the Village OiDic or Mount Carmel that is providing services in a partiru1ar geographical area, how do you mesh that with the particular services that the City of Winnipeg public health sta1f are providing? There I think what you have is an opportunity for a lot of overlap and duplication and also fragmentation of service, and we want to avoid that. So I would again encomage the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to address that.

I know it is not an easy issue, but I do think it needs to be dealt with. My other caoccm in regard to regionalization of health care services is to allow the hospitals within this province to have a clear mission statement as to what they are all abouL

436 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 Some of the hospitals will tell you they want a strong hospital system, and they are thetc to provide arute caiC. 'Ihcy are thetc to provide some outpatient service and some day surgery. That is their mandate. Other hospitals feel they need to rmvc into more of the health promotion aspects of delivering health, and I think that needs to be clear. Thetc needs to be a statement made by the govemm::nt in cmjuoction with the hospitals as to what their mandate is. Who should be delivering those types of services?

I am not sme that within our system to date those decisions have been made. The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), although it is not in the throne speech, certainly has tcfem:d to the issue of moving towards a health care system in the community that is based on primary health care. I think that the Winnipeg Health Organization articulated in their declaration of 1978 an excellent definition of what primary health care is.

The declaration defines primary health care as essential health care based m practical, scientifically sound and socially acceptable methods and technology made universally acceptable to individuals and families in the cOIDIIDDlity through their full participation and at a cost that the community and country can afford to maintain at every stage of their development in the spirit of self-tcliance and self determination.

It is the first level of the contact of the individual, the family and the community with the natimal health system, bringing health care as close as possible to where people live and work, and constitutes the first element of the continuing health care process. I read that definition into the tceord, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I think it is important that, when members of the Legislative Assembly talk about primary health care, we tcally have an idea as to what it is that we are tcferring to. In the area of primary health care I found it particularly intetcsting the other evening that Dr.

Michael Rachlis, a former Winnipegger and now at McMaster University, spoke to a group of cmsumers and m.JrsCS and intetcsted individuals of the conmnmity and talked a lot about primary health care and the need to tcform the health care system. He made a very intetcsting analogy when he talked about how we have conducted studies in North America, whether it be in the United States or in Canada, about the efficacy of doing primary ptcvention. He gave an example of a number of individuals in the United States whetc in fact they had actually practised some primary ptcvention with these individuals.

Over the course of time they had provm that with their methods of primary health caiC they had saved dollars. As Dr. Rachlis said, we know that information, but we do not practise it. H that had been a drug that we had found out about, and he used the example of Prozac-everybody knows about Prozac; everybody is ptcscribing Prozac in this country. We think it is a miracle cure, yet we altcady have the miracle CUICS. We know what works. We know that primary health care works. We know that ptcventive medicine works.

Why are we not doing it7 Why are we not using it7 I thought he made an excellent point that we tcally need to move in that diiCction. It is very difficult to do as politicians because we all live under four-year mandates, and we also know that when you put your dollars into prcvmtive medicine, you do not necessarily see the tcsults of your work within that four years. So it is difficult for politicians, but I think we certainly need to move in that diiCction.

I noticed in one of the tcports that the govemmcnt had produced in '91, the Health Protmtim Task Force, these are old statistics, but in 1988 and 1989, the Province of Manitoba, the total Health budget was $1.4 billion. The money spent on cwative health was 99.66 percent. The money spent on ptcventative health was .34 percent of the total budget Now, I am sme that figutc has inctcased.

I would bet that in fact we are spending a few more dollars on ptcventative as opposed to curative, but it would be intetcsting to see an updated chart as to whether we are even at 3 percent as ICC()DJIJ'If':Dded by the government's own task force and whether we have moved that far. I would suggest that in fact we are not at 3

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 437 percent. If we were ooly at .34 percent in 1988 and '89 fiscal year, I would suggest that if we are at 1 percent we are doing well. I think that is a goal for the government to move towards whoever the government may be after the next election. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted to speak a little bit about mental health services and home care-and I appreciate again that my time is limited and other m:mbers do want an opportunity to speak.

Although the government has touted II1121tal health services as son of the jewel in their aown as far as health care reform is concerned and we are pleased that there have been positive changes made in the health care system-I think that we need to move on that continuum and still improve our health care services. That improvement needs to be looking at, again, what we consider preventative mental health. Curreotly, our mental health dollars are focused oo n:babilitation. They are focused on cure. They aie not focused on prevention. I had raised this questim with the Minister ofHealth (Mr.

McCrae) a number of months ago that in fact. again, particularly in rural and northern Manitoba, if you have some m::nta1 health difficulties, although you have not been labelled with a mental illness such as schizophrenia or manic depression, it is very difficult to get a service in rural or northem Manitoba because the mental health workers through the govemmcnt will not provide that service because you have not been given a diagnosis.

Yet studies will show, in particular with women who have been abused sexually and then get into drugs and have then mental health illnesses, that if some preventative work could have been done to counsel those individuals and work with them at the initial onset of what they saw as their difficulties, we could prevent some of the long term costs of health care and provide a better quality of life. So I would ask the minister to look at the area of preventative mental health.

I am not suggesting that govemment should be delivering that service, but that commmity-based organizations may want to look at a mandate for those kinds of services and certainly the self-help organizations as wen. The olbcr area in mental health was just in the area of dlild and adolescent services.

Having had an opportunity to meet with a couple of these psychiatrists in child and adolescent services at Health Sciences Centre the other day, although they are pleased with the new ward that they have and the IJUIDbc:r of beds, they still see huge gaps in the area of adolescent sc:rvices, psychiatric services and mental health services for children. They are not treatment centres or services for those adolescents in the c('Dlllllmity. We have Knowles Centre which really does not deal with psychiatric issues of children.

We have the Manitoba Adolescent Treatment Centre which has 25 beds and deals with a very narrowly focused group. It is an important resource, but there are still a large number of adolescents out there who do not necessarily need to be in a psychiatric bed at Health Sciences Centre or in a hospital, but there is not any kind of supervised treatment services for them in the community. I think that is an area that needs to be addressed as wen. The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) was quoted in the throne speech that the self-managed Home Care program is being expanded to rural Manitoba. We hope that does occur.

That was mmtim:d in the eadier tbrme speech as well. We see a number of repeats in this particular throne speech UDder health care, but we do hope that in fact that program does get off the ground. I noticed the minister refetred in this throne speech and in his comments about the Home Care program and the appeal process. I would beg to differ with the minister, and I would suggest that in fact the appeal process is not working well.

I think if }'Oil talked to the appeal panel members and with all due respect to them and certainly the head of the appeal panel happens to be my former family physician-aDd I think they are all qualified individuals, but they are having difficulty as an appeal board.

438 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 •

(1530) The hOJJJ: cam staff in the region and in fact the climts who are being serviced are having an even more difficult time with the entire appeal process, because they have not really established some policy guidelines in terms of what should be considered as far as home care.

Again, I think when we are talking about the Home Care program, I would encomage the minister rather than to use his pat line of how DDJch more money they have put into the Home Care program-which of course they have because aruity has increased and the volume has increased so obviously there are more dollars going into that particular insured service-to look at the criteria and what kind of services are we providing for the aged and infirm::d and the younger disabled to ensure that they can be in their homes and be maintained safely and live a productive life.

It may not be a home care defined service that they need, but it is a service that affects their health and it is a service that is necessary to either be provided by the govemmcnt or for the government to encourage nonprofit organizations to ensure that service is there. I am speaking of such supports such as home maintenance, laundry services, housekeeping. It has been proven in studies and time and time again and in fact those kind of services will assist people in staying in their own homes for a longer period of time.

Rather than having the govemmcnt totally IIJOVe away from that, as they have done in the Home Care program. they need to ~ that and decide: first of all, make the assumption that, yes, this is a good type of support service, and then look at who should be delivering the service. If it is not the Home Care, then someone needs to be out there to be delivering that particular service. I would encourage the minister to look at those particular issues. I wanted to talk briefly about the Healthy Child Development. Again, the former Minister of Health spoke at length.

I believe, in the Estimates process about Healthy Child Development and how wonderful the system was that they were going to develop, et cetera. It is now about a year and a half later. We see this coming up in the tbrooc speedl again, and they talk about a Healthy Olild Development strategy, which we support as oppositim if, in fact, they ever get it implemented and decide what they want to do.

I would encomage the minister, when he is looking at that type of strategy, to also look at his owngovmmr.nr's reports fi:om 1991, and the most recent one in 1994, in regard to looking at province-wide nutrition and food strategy for Manitoba. Again, this ties in very lDlch to the whole issue of primary health care and preventative health. 1bere are excellent reaJ11DinvJatims that are in those reports that talk about the need for provincial nutrition and food strategy; and, if this govermnent truly believes in health promotion and prevention, they williiJOVe in those directions.

The members of the House may note one of the resolutions that we put on the Order Paper in this session is regarding fetal alcohol syndrome. The m:mbers will also know-and, of course, this is a particularly high profile case, but Mr. Kelly Sawchuk, who is oftentimes written up in the papm, happens to be an individual who had fetal alcohol syndrome as a child and now as an adult. He is costing the system hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of a number of years. The sad part about fetal alcohol syndrome is that it is 100 percent preventable, and we know that. We know that it is 100 percent preventable.

I would like to see this govemmcnt examine some preventative programs in the area of fetal alcohol syndrome. Again, when the Leader and I were out in Brandon a DUIIlber of weeks ago, we had an opportunity to~ with the Brandon school board members as well as the superintendent and a number of teachers. They talked about their diffiallt to manage, behavioural problem children that they had within the school system There were about 10 that they had identified as real problems, and they worked out a system of an interagency collaboration to sort of work with these kids.

I said to the teacher, how many of those 10 kids

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 439 would you say am substance-abuse or fetal alcohol ~children? He said, about six. So, again, there am enormous costs to the system, and it is something that can be 100 percent preventable. I was interested to see that again the Breast Screening Program was mentioned in the throne speech. I understand, from some of the people who were involved with that particular program, that it really is not up and running. I was also~ to see where we am looking at a prostate centre. I would be interested in more details on that particular program.

It is quite interesting, as you read through the throne speech and you pick up a number of the issues that have been idrnrified in health----certainly it is interesting because it has never been an issue that, for whatever reason, has come up as an issue to me from members of the public or even urologists in the province of Manitoba. So I certainly would be ~to see what the goals are going to be for this particular program. I would encourage the government to at least get the Breast Screening Program up and running and functioning before they start moving on to another program. Let us start doing one well.

I understand that the Breast Screening Program still is not up and running and so it needs to be. I would also ask the minister-and again I am sure he has had an opportunity to hear the comments of Dr. Michael Rachlis who spoke at MARN--to examine the whole issue of fee for service. I recognize that we have a Manitoba Medical Association and a government of Manitoba agreement that is in place.

Again, when you talk to family physicians and evm when you talk to specialists, they will tell you that the fi:e..for-service system as it cunently exists does not necessarily assist the patient or the individual in the CQIDDDmity. In fact, it does not even assist the physician in doing good preventative medicine. In fact, in some cases, it encourages the opposite. If you have physicians who spend a lot of time with their patients, whether that be by visit and/or tdephme calls and they feel they are doing a good job, they am not necessarily compensated for some of that extra work.

Physicians are compensated to keep encouraging patients to come back to see them at the physician's office and then get a particular fee for service for that particular visit. We have a fee-for-service system set up that is, in fact, archaic. There have been suggestions that we should move to more of a capitation system where physicians am paid for the number of patients that they see. This is being looked at in some other provinces. It is obviously a fairly oomplex foniilla. It would have to be worked out. Again, rather tban saying, here are all the answers, my suggestion to the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) is to say, let us look at that fee-for servia: issue and see if there cannot be changes to fee for service. In a meeting a number of weeks ago with the president of the MMA, Dr. Neil Donen, he even talked about the idea of looking at salaried physicians and block funding for physicians. Obviously, if the president of the MMA is saying that, they am willing to discuss the issue. I would encourage the Minister of Health and his new deputy to eote:r into some conversation and discussion with the association about these very real issues. I have me more comment to make.

I wanted to talk about re-engincering government, but I will not have time to do tbat. I will only rec(lJJliJlC:Dd to every member of the House that they read the book Re-E'.ngineering Government. It is an excellent book 'Ihcre was also an excdlent

article in The Globe and Mail. I do not have the date, but it was sometime this fall. It was a temark by Paul Tellier, who was a Oerk of the Privy Council and scc:teta~yunder Brian Mulroney and was basically a career civil servant. He outlines eight excellent points about how we should reinvent govemment and what we .oced to do in the bumaucracy and the changes that we need to make.

440 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1994 I am swe that if you ask most civil servants, they could tell you what those changes are, but it. is very much worth reading and I would be happy to give anyone a copy who is interested. As one tioa1 comment and as I end my remarks, I wanted to raise the issue of co-ordination of our services in the area of Health, Justice, Education and Family Services. Again, it is something that I have been talking about since 1988 along with the whole area of piCYmtative medicine and health promotion, but I still will reiterate it.

We really have not done a good job of interfacing among the departments in terms of the programs we deliver, and not mly that but in knowing how decisions in one department affect cost and outcomes in other departments. I think of an example in our hospitals. We have intensive care pediatric wards where in fact we have babies in imcosive care wbcre the beds cost about $1,000 to $1,400 a day.

When those children are ready to go home, oftentimes they are not going back to their farmlies, they are to go to foster families, and because we have a shortage of trained foster families in the system, those cbildren remain in hospital for JDOIC days than what they really need to. 1here is one example of how we have extra costs incuned to the Health system because of gaps in the Family Services system 1he examples are many. Another example is the whole issue of physical education and what we teach in the schools versus what has been documented in health as being very important for Manitobans. •

(1540) I will leave my comments with those two examples, and I would hope that the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) will have an opportunity to hear my remarks and some of the suggestions and the issues I think that need to be looked at in the area of health care. Although we will certainly have an opportunity to meet with the public and Jm:t with the profcssiooals over the next couple of months, we may not have an opportunity to actually address these issues within the Legislative Assembly.

I would just like to close, Madam Deputy Speaker, because it is the season, to wish all members of this House and all staff within the Legislative Assembly the very best during the holiday season and certainly health and happiness in 1995. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Deputy Speaker, I commence my comments here m the throne speech by welcoming yourself and the Speaker back to this session as well as all of the Pages and those involved in the Ownber. I find the work of all of you most efficient and we appreciate all of the wOik we do with you.

I would also like to commence by wishing all members of the Chamber the best of the holiday season. I briefly wish to reflect on a number of issues since time is short, a number of issues in the cmtcxt of this speech because other members wish to speak. [interjection] For the pmpose of the member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) who is already trying to contribute to my speech, I have reserved some direct comn w=:nts for some of the developments that he has participated in. I do, again, thank the residents of Kildonan constituency for their ongoing support.

I have always said it is an honour to represent that region of the city and the province. Two weeks ago, I was here in the Chamber, cdebratiog HarmJcbb and dancing the bora; and in about a mmth from now I will be somewhere else, dancing the hopak with the Ukrainian community as they cdebrate Malanka which is Ukrainian New Yeats, and I thiok it is one of the wonderful things about being an MLA in Manitoba. It reflects the character and the background of the community, and I thank the residents of Kildonan, who I oontinue to consult on a weekly basis through my regular door knocking, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker, one does not wish to dwell on the negative in this Ownber, and one wishes to be positive, which is one of the reasons why our Leader annOWlced both a 10-point youth plan that, if you look at what the government has

December 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 441 done, completely overshadows everything the government has done. We in the opposition have put together a youth plan that the govemment has been studying for seven }al'S, Madam Deputy Speaker. Further, the Leader of our party put together a throne speech that absolutely dwarfs the efforts of this govemnnd in its throne speech, and I have to ask, what is wrong with the government?

I think the reality is that the govemment has grown tired. 'Ibc government is going into its seventh year, and there is some wisdom and there is some logic in a system that generally sees--the historical pattem has been that govemments in their sccmd term, in this case, the second term for this govemment, the third election, but generally, there is a transformation, there is a change after the second term, because, generally, all goveminents -and I saw it happen in the Sclueyer govemment, and I saw it happen in odlcr govemmcnts, that you do nm out of steam.

This govemmcnt has nm out of steam. 'Ibis govemnrnt has nm out of ideas. 'Ibis government has nm out of direction, Madam Deputy Speaker, and they have come to the point where only me thing matters, and that is to get re-elected 'Ibcre is no vision. There is no idea. 'J:'berc is only one goal for members on the opposite side of the House, and that goal is to get te-e1ected at all costs. I believe that sincady, Madam Deputy Speaker. I believe that this govemmcnt has nm out of ideas, it has nm out of steam, and its only goal is to be n>-electcd 'Ibcre is no vision for the problems

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-6-9
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Volume / chapter	35th 6th hansardpdf 9.pdf
Language	en
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