Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 20 (27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-20

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

Duff Roblin ADDRESS Reston, Manitoba 189 Harris Blvd. , Winnipeg 12 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man, 2 - 1177 Henderson Hwy,, Winnipeg 16 102 Handsart Blvd., Winnipeg 29 .steinbach, Man. Thompson, Man. Rathwell, Man, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Sperling, Man. 225 Kimberly St. , Winnipeg 15 Ridgeville, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Teulon, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Neepawa, Man.

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John's Ave., Winnipeg 4 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital, Winnipeg 8 · Room 250, Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg., Selkirk, Man. 168 Burrin Ave. , Winnipeg 17 Nesbitt, Man. Beausejour, ·Man. Swan River, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Killarney, Man. Kenton, Man. 594 Arlington St., Winnipeg 10 412 Paris Bldg. , Winnipeg 2 Legislat.ive Bldg., Winnipeg 1 I I �

.THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2.30 o'clock, Wednesday, February 26,1964. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and �eceiving Petitions MR. CLERK: The Petition of United Dominions Investments Limited praying for the passing of

an Act to authorize the petitioners to carry on business in the Province of Manitoba. The Petition of Cyril Alvin Henry and others praying for the passing of

an Act for the relief of Cyril Alvin Henry, Joseph Allen Bryant and Frances Adelaide Bryant. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills HON. R. G. SMELLIE, Q.C. (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle-Russell) intro duced Bill No. 50,

an Act to provide for Certain Exceptions to the Lord's Day Act (Canada). MR. J. COWAN, Q.C. (Winnipeg Centre) introduced Bill No. 33,

an Act to incorpor ate Canadian Nazarene College. MADAM SPEAKER: In the gallery today on my right there are some 31Grade 7 and 8 students from Calvin Christian School under the direction of their teacher, Mr. Harris. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. We wel come you here this afternoon. We hope that all that you see and hear in this Legislative Assembly will be of help to you in your studies. May this visit be an inspiration to you and stimulate your interest in provincial affairs. Come back and visit us again. Orders of the Day MR. G.

MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to address a question to the First Minister in the absence of the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Has the Government of Manitoba been approached on the matter of establishing a provincial booth or exhibition at the Montreal World's Fair in 19 67? And the second question is, has the government of Manitoba, if it has been approached, made a decision in this matter? HON.

DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I think I can answer the question by saying that we have had a visit from one .of the officials of the Montreal World's Fair to discuss this matter. They have made certain suggestions to us but no decision has yet been made in respect of it. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, could the First Minister indicate when a decision might be made, because I understand that in order to proceed the World's Fair has to know fairly soon what each province is going to do. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, we hope to make a decision in good time to be of service to them. MR. E. R.

SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the First Minister if it is the intention to follow the Order Paper, or will provision be made to allow for debate on the Livestock Marketing Committee's report? MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, in connection with the honourable gentlemen's en quiry, what I would propose is that you call a motion on the Committee of Ways and Means so that we may get the budget debate launched, and then revert to the regular Order Paper and proceed in that way.

Before the Orders of the Day, Madam, I think I will take the opportunity to lay on the table a Return to an Order voted on Tuesday, February 25, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Neepawa. MR. G. E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to make a correction in Hansard. On page 408, at the bottom of the page there is a statement here concerning a Q. C., "qualified conservative", and this statement was made by the Honourable Member for Gladstone, not myself.' MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to address a further question to the First Minister regarding the Pan American Games. In view of the February 26th, 19 64. Page 483

(Mr. Molgat cont'd) •.•.• likely increase in the budget as recently announced in the newspapers, has the Government of Manitoba made a decision as to its sharing in the games? MR . ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, all I know about that matter is what I have read in the newspaper. Nobody has made any approaches to the government as such. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Mem ber for Rhineland. MR .

ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I think the honourable member and I are agreed to have this matter stand for the time being so that we can dispose of that item in that way. but I would now suggest that you call the Committee of Ways and Means Resolution as the next item. MADAM SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister. The Hon ourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I regret that I have been holding up this Motion and I have no intention of holding up if anyone wishes to speak, but I would crave the indulgence of the House to have it stand insofar as I am concerned. today.

I shall be prepared to proceed on Friday or Monday. MADAM SPEAKER: Anyone else wishing to speak? The adjourned debate on the second reading of the proposed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Labour. The Honourable the Member for Kildonan. . MR . J. T. MILLS (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I had this debate stood in my name but I would like to refer it to the Minister of Labour. MR . MOLGAT: Will the Honourable Minister be closing the debate at this point? Well then, Madam Speaker, I would like to make some comments on this Bill in that case.

We are not satisfied, Madam Speaker, with all the aspects of this Bill, as has been indicated by the Member for Portage la Prairie and the member for Assiniboia.

We cann ot understand, quite frankly, why the government would establish a commission like the Blake Commission, with which we agreed completely and which we had been urging the government to do for some three years now, but having established the commission, the government pro ceeds to ignore the recommendations of that commission and does not proceed to accept the very recommendations of the group that has been set up to investigate this matter thoroughly.

Following on this, the government received recommendations as well from a joint committee of Labor and Management, the two groups who are basically and directly involved in the problem. This joint committee recommended to the government something entirely different, in part at least, to what is proposed in this Bill.

Certain sections of the Bill I will admit are. acceptable, but there are other sections in there, Madam Speaker, which I submit and which our previous speakers have said, are contrary to the recommendations of the Blake Commission, or ignore recommendations of the Blake Commission, similarly ignore or are contrary to recommendations of a joint group of management and labour. We are not prepared to accept the Bill in its present form. We are however prepared to see the Bill go to second reading into committee, at which time we will have some specific amendments to propose at the committee stage.

So we are voting in favour of the Bill, Madam Speaker, with that clear proviso. HON. OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour) (Osborne):Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Honourable Member from Kildonan for adjourning the debate in my name. I would also like to thank the Honourable Member for Rhineland for the complimentary remarks that he had to make about this fine piece of legislation, opinions opposite to the contrary. The Honourable Member for Rhineland had a question concerning the holding of hear ings of the board, and I would like to advise the honourable member that in

Section 10 of the Act, it requires the board to hold public hearings at such times and places as it deems advis able before reporting to the Minister.

Section 10 also requires the board to give sufficient notice of its hearings in newspapers circulated in the area in which the hearings is to be held. Madam Speaker, I would like to revert to the remarks that were made by the Honour able the Leader of the New Democratic Party Thursday last, and I believe what I have to say will deal with the comments of the other honourable members. The Honourable Member from Radisson charged the government with not co-operat ing with labour and management in the construction industry in the preparation of this Bill. Page 484 February 26th, 1964.

.. (Mr. Baizley cont'd) ... • The honourable member also charged that there was no basis for this legislation in either the Blake Report or the Special Committee on the Construction In dustry. He also had a number of other things to say but I would like to deal with these two statements first. As for: co-operation, the House will recall that when I introduced Bill No. 29, I re viewed it in detail and I reviewed its background. I drew the attention of the House to the fact that Bill No. 29 was the result of long and intensive study by a joint committee of employ ers and unions.

Now this committee, Madam Speaker, was truly representative of the cons truction industry in this "'province. I do not wish to go into all the detail again, except to empha size the one point for the benefit of my honourable friend the Leader of the NDP. In every st ep of the way there was, in the preparation of this legislation, joint study by labour and ma nagement and it was of a continuous consultative nature with these groups. Now for the honourable member to charge at this state a lack of co-operation on the part of the govern ment is to ignore completely the background of this legislation.

I might say, Madam Speaker, that the honourable member's statement that there was no basis for Bill 29 in either the Blake Report or the report of the Special Committee is -- well it is not factual -- I was going to say it's nonsense but I wouldn't say that because I don't believe the honourable member really believes that himself. Perhaps it will help if I emphasize that the recommendations of the Blake Report and the recommendations of the Special Committee are not the same thing. Perhaps it will also help if I try to separate them for my honourable friend. Let me take the Blake Report first.

The report did not make any hard and fast recommendations. What it did was to sug gest a number of possible alternatives for the special committee to consider. It suggested, in the words of the Blake R� port -- and I am quoting now the exact language of the report - "Some possibilities as a guide to our deliberations" What were these possibilities? They were: No. (1) to leave matters stand so that another year might be spent in studying the con struction industry in all its aspects. No.

(2) Eliminate The Fair Wage Act entirely. Remove the government from the field and let wages in the industry find their own levels on the open ma rket. No.

(3) Establish only one zone for Manitoba with two basic wage rates, one for tradesmen and one for labourers. No.

(4) Remove zones altogether and set wages on the ba sis of the dollar value of contracts. No.

(5) Increase the number of zones to take into account economic differences in different areas. No.

(6) Divide the present Fair Wage Board into two sections -- one dealing with Greater Winnipeg and the other with rural Manito ba. No.

(7) Establish two zones-- One the present Zone A; the other administered by a zone board comprising the rest of the province. No.

(8) Patch up The Fair Wage Act and increase th e number of inspectors to enforce it. Now, Madam Speaker, these were the alternatives suggested by the Blake Report. The committee reviewed the alternatives that were suggested in the Blake Raport and then it came out with a number of recommendations which it had to offer -- and I'm quoting from its report. They had for consideration the best solution to problems posed by The Fair Wage Act at the present time. Now what were the recommendations of the special committee? They were these: No.

(1) Retain The Fair Wage Act which would continue the principle of basic wages in the construction industry. No.

(2) Leave Zone A as it stands. No.

(3) Extend Zone B to cover all the rest of the province. No.

(4) A single basic wage to be determined by the Fair Wage Board which would apply in Zone B on contracts under $50,000.00. No.

(5) In the case o(contracts in Zone B whose amount was over $50,000, Zone A rates and maxi mu m hours would apply. No.

(6) Maximum hours of work might differ between Zone A and B except in the cases of contracts in excess of $50,000, in which case the Fair Wage Board wo uld set the maximums. Now I have felt it necessary, Madam Speaker, to outline in this detail the basic points in the Blake Report and the recommendations of the Special Committee. It must be ob -- vious to my honourable friend that the committee rejected some of the alternative proposals of the Blake Report. They accepted some and they modified others. Now let me look at the recommendations of the Special Committee in light of Bill 29. No.

(1) The Special Committee recommended retaining The Fair Wage Act. Bill 29 does this. No.

(2) The committee recommended extending Zone B to include all of the province February 26th, 1964. Page 485

(Mr. Baizley cont'd) ..•.•• outside of Zone A as it exists under The Fair Wage Act. Now Bill 29 does this, subject to the change of Zone A to the boundaries of Metropolitan Winnipeg. No.

(3) The committee recommended a basic fair wage to apply to Zone B on contracts under "$50,000. 00. Bill29 enables this to be done without fixing the dollar value. No.

(4) The com mi ttee recommended that Zone A rates and maximum hours would apply in Zone B on contracts over $50, 000.00. Now, Madam Speaker, Bill 29 enables this to be done without fixing the dollar value. No.

(5) The committee recommended that maximum hours may differ between Zone A and Zone .B, except in the case of contracts in excess of $50, 000, in which case the Fair Wage Board would set maximum hours. Bill 29 provides for this. Now, Madam Speaker, leaving aside the amount of $50, 000, which everyone knew was only a talking point and not a fixed amount, I submit that Bill 29 as it now stands incorporates in substance five of the six recommendations of the Special Committee. I might say, Madam Speaker, that the results of our consultation, in my opinion, have been most productive to date.

I would urge the members of this House to vote unanimously for this Bill to go to committee, where no doubt there will be further submissions. In a sense this committee can share in this co ntinuous consultation between labour and management in the construction industry. I would like to assure the House that for my part that such changes that would appear to be reasonable and in the best interest in the community will have my wholehearted support. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable the Minister of Labour would permit a question?

Since the publishing or printing of Bill No. 29, have you received representations from labour or any other interested group asking you to withdraw the bill? MR . BAIZLEY: To withdraw the bill? Madam Speaker, I had representations from labour suggesting that they would like to appear at committee to make recommendations for changes. They did have a suggestion that this bill should be withdrawn, and I might tell my honourable friend that I will be very happy to withdraw this bill but to repeal The Fair Wage , Act at the same time. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MR . PAULLEY:Yeas and nays please, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members. The question before the House is the pro posed motion for the second reading of Bill No. 29,

An Act respecting the wages and Hours of Work of Persons employed in the Construction Industry, - A standing vote was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Alexander, Baizley, Barkman, Beard, Bilton, Bjornson, Campbell, Carroll, Cown, Desjardins, Evans, Froese, Groves, Guttormson, Hamilton, Harrison, Hryhorczuk, Hutton, Je.annotte, Johnson (Gimli), Johnston, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McDonald, McGregor, McLean, Martin, Mills, Moeller, Molgat, Patrick, Roblin, Seaborn, Shewman, Shoemaker, Smellie, Smerchanski, Stanes, Steinkopf, Strickland, Tanchak, Vielfaure, Watt, Weir, Witney and Mrs. Morrison.

NAYS: Messrs. Cherniack, Gray, Harris, Paulley, Peters, Schreyer and Wright •. MR . CLERK: Yeas, 47; Nays,7. MADAM SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. The second reading of the proposed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities. The Honourable the Member for Carillon. MR . LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Carillon): Madam Speaker, I beg the indulgence of this House to let this matter stand, MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the second reading of the pro posed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Public utilities. The Honourable the Member for Selkirk. MR . ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St.

George): Madam Speaker, the member for Selkirk was called out to see a delegation. Could we have the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand? MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Hon ourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. The Honourable the Member for Rhine land, MR , J. M. FROESE (Rhine land) Madam Speaker, I thank the members of the House Page 486 February 26th, 1964.

(Mr. F'roese cont'd) ..... for having indulgence over the past number of days to have this matter stand. I'm prepared now to just make a few remarks and let it pass. I have received the co-operation of the Minister and received advice that I wanted. I've also had time to check the regulations that are contained in this Motion. Not being a mem ber of the committee, I was not fully aware of all the regulations. I have checked them and am now prepared to pass on it. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you rea�y for the question? HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q.

C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, there were two questions outstanding from the Honourable Member from Lake side. One had to do with the recommendations in the report relating to Manitoba Regulations 14/62, 15/62 and 16/62 relative to retroactivity. I believe his query was as to wh ether or not the recommendation was that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council would be empowered to make retroactive regulations.

This is one of these cases where to carry out the recommendation of the committee might get the Executive Council off the track a bit and it will have to be looked at rather carefully. He will unde.rstand this when I explain that this has to do with the Old Age Assistance payments which are shared between the province and the federal. government, and when the federal government makes an increase in these pension pay ments the province is then called upon to match them.

I daresay that every member of the House would wish the province -- as it has I think during this administration and those that preceded it -- every one would wish thJ province to match the payment immediately and to validate that by an Order-in-Council or an amendment to the Regulation which is subsequently then ratified by Act of the Legislature.

This was the action the committee was looking at and, realizing that this might happen again in the future, the suggestion was that perhaps the department should give some consideration to permitting the regulations to be amended in the Act retroactively because, in effect, they would have to be done that way in all cases where payments were made at the instance of the federal govern ment. So it is a difficult situation.

It is one of the situations that you often find· yourselves in and, in government, you are damned if you do and you're damned if you don't,, and it's a question of determining the better course to follow. In any case, it was not a firm recommend ation by the committee; it was merely that the department should look at this problem that is posed by this situation and determine whether it should carry on in the present manner or whether it should consider an amendment to the statute. The second one he commented upon I believe was Regulation 6/62. He wanted to know what the effect of that was.

I can do no better than to read the report we have from the Legis lative Counsel, and he brought this to the attention of the committee by saying that this regu lation purports to exclude feed mills from the provisions of The Coarse Grains Marketing Act under which the regulation is made. There is authority in the Act to exclude certain types of grain and certain kinds of persons from the operation of the Act, but not to exclude feed mills. This particular regulation expired on the 31st day of July, 1962 and therefore no action is now required.

Your committee, however, recommends that the attention of the Minister be brought to this matter since if it should be desired in future to make a similar provision, considera tion should be given to the question as to whether an amendment to the statute for the purpose is desirable. That was the only purpose behind that recommendation which appears in the Committee's report. Beyond that, I don't believe there are any comments that require further reply from me, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR .

ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. HON.

GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): I don't know which the Com mittee would like to do, but I have available for distribution now a document which I was an xious to let the members have so that they would have some idea of the general nature and scope of the curriculum revision which has been going on, pointing out the host of committees February 26th, 1964. Page 487

(Mr. Johnson cont'd) ..... which have been involved in the curriculum revision and the types and calibre of the people who have been serving on these several committees. I think it gives a better view to the members of the Hc...use; they can see through the eyes of the Minister the kind of activity which has been carried on by the curriculum branch this year. I would point out to the members of the committee that the outline of any courses which are now in effect are in a series of pamphlets which are published and which are dis tributed at public knowledge called the "Program of studies".

It's .really a series of books dealing with subjects taught in the different grades and so on. For instance, a Grade 9 sylla bus of studies, the subject matter and so on. If a program is not in effect in the Program of Studies it means that it is not ready for public release. I think that once the honourable mem bers can come through this volume, .which should be distributed now if the Clerk would do that, I hope this would serve to show the members of the committee the extent of the activities that I mentioned earlier. I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, what the wish of the committee is, if they wo uld allow me to proceed with this

section of the estimates with this in their hands. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I think we should have an opportunity to go over what the Minister has there. Possibly we could have this for today and be prepared to go on next time we meet, and carry on today with .A griculture estimates which we began last night. This, I think, would suit our purpose. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps we could hold the 4 (

a) Directorate of Curricula in line with the suggestion made, but I suggest that we should clean up (b), (

c) and (

d) before we leave Education and get them out of the way. MR . MOLGAT: I wonder if the Minister could give us some details there on the situa tion at the new technical school. I would be particularly interested in knowing the attendance fi gures at this time -- what the enrollment is. I have understood that for certain courses there have been an over-supply of applicants and in particular for the electronics course. I wonder whether the government has in mind extending this. course or whether in fact my informa tion is correct or not. MR. JOHNSON: I just missed that. MR .

MOLGAT: The enrollment at the Manitoba Institute of Technology, No. 1; No,2, whether it is correct that there has been over-demand for certain courses and that we have not been able to accommodate the students who wish to take certain courses in particular the electronics course, and what steps the government intends to take to correct this. MR . LEMUEL HARRIS (Lc,gan): Mr. Chairman, the total estimates for Education in Manitoba for the year 1964-1965 is $41 million. What percentage of this amount will be spent on new technical and vocational schools?

I ask this for the simple reason I got up here the other day and I talked on something in a similar vein in the Province of Manitoba, so I'm coming back right now to give some observations of �ducation and what could be done in vocational schools and such like. No:w, Mr. Chairman, if you were a student, you would likely receive lots of advice on the merits of staying in school. Parents, teachers, guidance counsellors, family friends, el ders of all descriptions, have sung this refrain so often it probably is starting to sound like static. Well, you should listen with frightening facts like these cropping up.

It has been sh own that 63 percent of the people who are unemployed and looking for work had no better than a Grade 8 education. It indicates, too, that those who have only one or two years of secondary schools are almost as likely to be unemployed as those who have Grade 8. The Dominion Burea of Statistics quotes the following figures: 35 percent of all Canad ian pupils quit school with a Grade 8 education or less; another 35 percent leave before junior matriculation or the equivalent of training, thus settling for an education that in most cases will lead only to unskilled or semi-skilled work.

Only one-fifth of those starting Grade 1 achieve senior matriculation. This is an 80 percent waste of our human resources. Only 6 percent of the 9 percent going on to University obtain a degree. The experts say that our high ' schools are placing far too much emphasis on academic education, gearing everything to Uni ve rsity education. Many students are persuaded to take University courses when they might be more suited for careers that require training in technical and vocation schools.

The impending man-power crisis led Parliament to pass the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act in late 1960 to bring up to par this long neglected field of education. In Page 488 February 26th, 1964.

(Mr. Harris cont'd) ..... just 27 months -- April, 1961 to June, 1963 -- 254 new fully equip ped technical institutes sprung up across Canada. But how much advantage did the government of Manitoba take of this offer to help the students of this province gain knowledge that would benefit them greatly in this technical age? There is no better investment that a good education, and with the increasing technical nature of our society and the trend to automation, technical and vocational schools are more important and necessary than ever.

By the time man has reached his peak earning period, the high school graduate is making 30 percent more than the man who dropped out of school early. Each year in school yields an additional return in year ly income. Each year cJf high school adds $238 yearly income and the matriculation year adds $466. 00. Now that technical and vocational schools encompass regular matriculation courses with technical courses, it is imperative that students be provided with as many of these schools as are warranted.

Modern educators calculate that there should be one technical vocational school :for every two academical schools to meet the demands of modern industrial age. This ideal ratio should result in more students intetested in diversified courses offered and thus lessen the drop-out rate. Since the technical vocational schools are needed so urgently in Manitoba, I would ask the Minister of Education: how much of the total estimate for education wo uld be spent on technical and vocational schools in the Province of Manitoba for the year 1964-65? MR . JOHN P.

TANCHAK (Emerson): While we are on these technical and vocational schools, I'm happy to note that the honourable member who has just spoken has taken a dif ferent view of the technical schools and that's to his credit. At the present time I didn't agree with his former speech but with this one I wholeh eartedly agree. But there's one question I would like to ask, and I know that it isn't new to the Hon ourable Minister of Education -- he's heard that quoted or asked before -- in fact one of the greatest proponents of this scheme is one of the past Ministers of Education, Mr. Bobby Bend.

I would like to know what the government is doing in regards to junior vocational schools that ' have been suggested by certain people in the Province of Manitoba. It is a school where boys and girls unqualified for academic or technical schools would have the opportunity to upgrade th emselves, I presume. Some of these young boys and girls haven't got the quality, they're unable to go beyond Grade 9, and I think it would be very very desirable to organize such schools. I understand that in the State of Minnesota and North Dakota there are similar schools in operation at the present time.

I would like to hear from the Minister if he has anything new to tell us on this subject. MR . JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to answer a few of the questions at this time. In the technology division at MIT, in the daytime courses there are 283 in technology and 935 in the industrial division; and 900 in the evening courses. There is really no way of knowing, as I understand it, just what the demand would be in certain courses, but there is a bulge in the electronic courses and there is some provision for extra staff in the coming year to try and handle that.

The actual figure given to me here of the day enrolment is 935 in industrial, as I say, and about 283 in the technology. There is extra provision here for staff this year to offer more of the courses where the demand is most marked. With respect to how much will be spent in technical education, the estimates here of course are current. In addition to this, the estimated total cost of MIT comes in the neigh bourhood to date, with site and all, of roughly $6. 4 million is what has been spent on the MIT in Brooklands.

In the coming year, as indicated in the Speech from the Throne -- to the Hon ou rable Member for Logan -- provision has been made as is noted for capital funds for the trade centre at The Pas -- the technical centre there. The exact draft in determination of this facility is well under way. One is planned for Brandon and then there is the junior vocational school in the City of Winnipeg, which was mentioned by the Honourable Member from Emerson.

With respect to the junior vocational school, when Winnipeg made their estimate of the cost of a facility like this it was, I believe, in the neighbourhood of $1. 8 million for around 700 students. This matter is in hand; certain decisions have been made by the administration to build such a school in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg. I think the province will build the school and make provision for a lease arrangement with the Winnipeg School Division where in they would initially take in certain numbers of students from the suburbs.- February 26th, 1964. Page 489

(Mr. Johnson cont1d) .•.• • Now in dealing with the junior vocational school I feel the statement made by the Mem ber from Emerson is very true. I think that this type of school apparently is required in the opinion of many of our leading educators in the province. However, as to the programs that it will offer, I think educators have pretty well decided -- have in their own minds the kind of courses such a facility would offer. I think we approach this largely as a necessary facility in the eyes of these people and also as our first attempt in this new field.

I think we have to ga in som·e experience here, I think all the members of the Hvuse would be most concerned that such a facility not be tlnuglt of as a dumping ground for students who may be late starters as it is called. Discussing this .with the people in this field, they tell me that courses can be designed much like the general and university courses for re-entry from time to time, and this is the work of our curriculum people. I hope that answers the questions that have been asked to date . MR . TANCHAK: Mr. Chairman, one more question on the junior vocational schools.

I'm just wondering if such a school was established and built, would it qualify under the federal provisions on technical schools for grants? MR . JdHNSON: Yes, it will qualify for federal sharing on capital. However, in voca tional training of this nature there is a limit on the federal sharing with respect to current. I might point out to the House that I am just amazed at the fantastic amount of work that has gone into the Manitoba Institute of Technology. This is the text -- it couldn't be reprinted as it would be too costly really, but it is available to any members who wish to look it up in the department.

This is what it takes to lay on courses in technology alone, the syllabus of studies that has been worked on by the people, the outline of the various courses and the program., of studies just for the first year in technology at the MIT. The program of studies for the second year, which will be approximately of the same size and content, is in progress for the second year. This outlines in detail the syllabus of each technological course -- tecbllology only. So one can see the staff and department, I think, must be congratulated not only for its size but ' for the excellence of its presentation. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, when I asked the Honourable Minister of Education if he would produce a brochure of the courses that were being offered at the new technical training school and also an outline of the studies, I wasn't aware of the size of the vo lume that just dealt with one particular phase of the studies that are going on at the technical training school. However, I think notwithstanding the fears that he cast towards me by the big book that he has, I would appreciate if he has got -- not necessarily a fuli syllabus as he has there -- the courses on electronics, etc.

If we could get a brochure of the· studies that are being offered at the technical school and also an outline of the studies, particularly in the technical aspects of the training at the technical school. I've had an opportunity of speaking to some of the students that are going to our new technical training school in Brooklands and it seems to me from observation that the general training that is being received there is not particularly well suited at the present time to the equipping of the individuals into industry as a result of directly coming from the school.

Now I appreciate the fact that it may take a period of time for adjustment, but it does : seem to me that we're giving lip service to some degree to training at the technical school and confuse it with what is happening at our technical training school with a properly timed served apprentice ship. Now I think, Mr. Chairman, there is a great deal of difference between the results of a proper apprenticeship in industry than what is happening at our technical school. I say this in all due respect to what is going on at the technical school.

But I wonder if those of us who are charged with th_e responsibility as we are of providing the necessary funds for our training school, sometimes are of the opinion that simply because of the fact that our young students are going to technical schools they turn out to be welders or blacksmiths, or car penters. I think this is far from being true.

I think that actually what is happening from ob servations that I have made, that the products of our technical school this far have been given a basic insight into various trades and professions but require, after having had this insight, to undergo considerable detailed training afterwards. I have been told by a number of employers, too, that some of the young folk have Page 490 February 26th, 1964.

(Mr. Paulley cont1d) ...•.• approached them for a job on the basis of the fact that they have had the technical training, and the graduates themselves feel that they are fully qualified but when tl11ey take their place in industry, in practice they're not accepted at the present time. I'm not trying to be overly critical but I'm raising this, Mr. Chairman, because I think that it is a factor and it is a reasonable observation as to what is taking place.

Being one who in my own particular trade served an apprenticeship of five years -- of detailed apprentice ship -- the courses at the technical schools which run anywhere from 6 months to 12 months, in the likes of that short period of time caimot turn out. I'm not bragging by saying this, Mr. Chairman, as to my own qualifications, but I think on a comparative basis it would be under standable that the same type of mechanic cannot be turned out.

I just raise this so that there is no misunderstanding, particularly in regard to the student that by simply receiving a cer tificate of training doesn't necessarily make him a mechanic that's acceptable on graduation to industry generally. There's a lot that has to come after this and I think that we should con dition those who are going to our technical schools as to this in all likelihood happening. I might say that I have seen this in my own capacity as a sort of minor member of management on the railroad and this is a truism.

Now then, I would like to make a comment insofar as the expansion of our technical training institutes throughout the province. I might say quite frankly and make a confession, Mr.

Chairman, at one time I questioned in my own mind the advisability of expenditures of huge amounts of money say at The Pas, say at Dauphin or other areas in the province, because it was not being accompanied by additional financial undertakings in the particular area, so that the students who take advantage of the technical training in these areas outside of the Greater Winnipeg area would be able to apply their skills that they obtained at the te.chnical school due to the lack of secondary industry and the likes of that. However I confess, Mr. Chairman, that I have changed my mind to a considerable degree.

I realize that the families are located at The Pas and other areas and that their chil dren are entitled to receive technical training. It would be desirable that if in accompanying this that there was industrial expansion in the areas, but I am beginning to become convinced that this is not necessarily going to happen. I think what is going to happen is that the products of the technical training school when it is built at The Pas will be trained so that they come into the larger urban areas such as Winnipeg and take their place here.

I don't think from ob servations and the trend of what is happening that we are going to be able to provide in the future development of Manitoba sufficient outlets for graduates of technical training schools say at The Pas, and I'm not trying to be derogatory of The Pas when I say this, but it does seem to me that despite the desirability that we have of diversification of industry, the trend is going to be more and more to centralization.

Members of the House ·will recall that for a considerable number of years, govern ment - both the present government and the past government -- attempted to have erected at The Pas a pulp and paper mill. I recall that while the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, the present one, was sitting just up on the third row here next to me, we were talking about this for The Pas and the northern country at that time. A former Minister of Industry and Commerce, Bud Jobin, when he was on the other side of the House was continu ously talking about the explosions we were hoping to take place at The Pas.

The COMEF Report makes reference to the same thing, Mr. Chairman, and I'm only using this as an illustration that we have to to condition ourselves in my opinion now to train ing the young men and women in these areas, but have them also conditioned that they may have to leave their locations and come into the larger area in order that their qualifications and their capabilities will be put to use. As against this also I think, Mr.

Chairman, we have got to condition the people here in the Greater Winnipeg area to be in a position to accept them and take them into the fold here and not look on them as outcasts from other parts of the pro vince. We have a tremendous task, I suggest, in the field of technical training here in the province, the same as the boys from our rural areas. Now we all remember the old song "How're you going to keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree." I think the situ ation we have got to face up to, Mr.

Chairman, is that despite the desirability of many in the agricultural field -- my friend the Minister of Agriculture is continuously talking about the February 26th, 1964. Page 491

(Mr. Paulley cont'd) .••. possibility of the family farm unit :-:-. . I think we have got to re alize that in the progress, at least,to a considerable degree in Agriculture, less and less people are going to be required -- indeed the trend shows this in the field of agriculture. Now then, with the �amilies and the offspring that are presently on the farm, I think that we have to retrain them into the technical fields through our Tee Voc Schools and the li kes of that and have them equipped so that they can come in to the urban areas.

I know that th ere might be some who would say to me, "Well now, it would be far better if the reverse was just true, that we carry through our program of diversification\' :• but I do suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this will not take place to the degree that had been hoped.

It is true that in many areas, in the perimenter areas particularly around Winnipeg- ! have in mind at the present time the stocking plant at Teulon, which is an employer of some 20 or 30 people; I have in mind some other smaller industries like the potato chip factory at Carberry and the likes of that which has attracted a number of employees; but I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this is rather insignificant insofar as the numbers are concerned with ' what we are going to have to provide for with our young men and women in the future.

So I suggest to the Minister that he might take note, if he feels some sympathy or any sympathy with the remarks that I have just made, that the problem is simply not going to be solved by simple courses in our technical schools, that there's a period of training that has to come after this • - I want to make the confession to him, Mr. Chairman, as to the change in approach that I have bad myself insofar as technical training schools and the likes of that being located at The Pas.

I frankly confess that when I first heard of it I thought that here was going to be about a million or a million and a half dollars down the drain for a school beca•1se you were no t going to be able to absorb the product in the location of the school. I am now convinced that it will be a good thing, but we must realize and make provision for the utilization of the talent that they garner as a result of their education in the larger areas of the province. l\IIR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, just a few brief comments.

We have heard from the Minister and also read in the report of the various vocational training centers such as Winni peg, Brandon and The Pas now, and I was wondering what is the potential required in order to make this a going concern? I feel that in southern Manitoba we could stand a center like this. I think we have the population out there, so why not have a center in southern Manitoba? After all, we still have quite a drop-out in our Grade 10 and 11 students and this would pro vide an opportunity for them to take on some different vocation.

I have been wondering has th e government given consideration to this matter and have they had a request for this type of service from our area? Also, in connection with the schools for the retarded children which are presently under the Department of Health, has any consideration been given to bringing them under the Department of Education so that they might be entitled to grants from the tlepartment? MR. JOHNSON: Mr.

Chairman, for the benefit of the Leader of the Opposition who was busy when I spoke last time -- as I said, in the technology division of the MIT there are no w 283 students enrolled, 935 in the Industrial Division and 900 in the Industrial Division in evening classes. In the first year of operation of the new building and new courses, I was pointing out that this is the work that had to be done in preparing courses just for the Tech no logy Division alone -- sort of a work program, The staff have done a tremendous job in a very short period of time.

There was more demand for courses than was expected in the fi rst year and provision is made in these Estimates for more staff, especially, as I pointed out, in the electronics field. This seems to be the most pressing field.

I respect the comments of the Leader of the NDP, the Member for Radisson, with re spect to his concern �or the exact role of the trades school and the technology school and the continuing need for this liaison between job opportunites in the field, and the closest liaison has been maint;l.ined bet ween the staff of the school, the department, and industry and labour in the planning of courses and the designing of those courses for which there is the greatest need in the community. I t�nk one has to go out and walk around this building that has 325,000 square feet of space and see the staff.

I think when members do -- I hope you will take the opportunity to come as soon as I can arrange a morning -- this is a tremendous enterprise, I think we are very fortunate in the calibre of staff. I had the pleasure of Page 492 February 26th, 1964. I

• (Mr. Johnson cont'd) ..... presenting the first diplomas to the first graduates in the Indust rial Division and the many types of graduates that received diplomas that night was fantastic. There was none of those people that we don't use every day in our lives, from barbers, meat cutters, business machine operators, business scienae and so on, and they were extremely impressive ceremonies to see 123 come up and receive di.t,llomas.

Each one of them I asked if he was placed in employment, and the diesel engineers and business machine operators, the meat cutters, they all had received full-time employment on graduation and advised me they were so occupied. This is certainly heartening and it shows the tremendous need for this diversity of attack and the need to provide this diversity of opportunity for our youth.

At the same time I think we mustn't lose sight of what the member for Radisson was saying, that happy balance that is required and the continuing liaison that's required between the actual production of a course or a graduate, and this has to be kept in the closest harmony with what the job opportunities are in the community. Numerous pamphlets are being produced as the course evolves to inform people and young people of the facilities and opportunities at this center. I should point out that also a special little bulletin, a synopsis of courses at the Institute of Technology

section has been produced for guidance teachers -- and these are available for general distribution -- outlining the different civil technologies, operating engineers, medical lab and X-ray technology, library assistance, secretarial science and so on. This synopsis of courses is available and again the br ochures try to outline the course. With respect to the Honourable Member for Rhineland, I think the sites that were chosen or decided on some time ago as technical centres by the administration are the first breakout in this province in such a large scale into this special field.

My understanding from my short association in the department is that an institution or a trade institution, their facilities should have a capacity of around 400. We have no plans for location of further voca ti onal trade schools of this type beyond what has been announced. I think that like the Honour able-Member that Gimli and possibly Ste. Rose, Radisson, Transcona, all these -- all of us would be very anxious to see such a facility in our areas.

However, I think this is a very important matter because we have to build these of a sufficient size to offer the necessary trades, at key centres certainly to begin with, and an intensive study is going to be made by the department with respect to the next phase of this program. However, Mr. Chairman, I ho pe that that brings us up to date. MR . TANCHAK: Mr. Chairman, one more question on this schools. I feel sorry for the Honourable Member for Rhineland -- (I nterjection) -- another time for Rhineland -- but with his patience, I imagine his time will come.

These pre-vocational upgrading schools -- I had a telephone call yesterday from one Alfred Beard, I don't know if h's a namesake -- it is a namesake of the Honourable Member from Churchill but whether it's a relative or not I do not know -- but he asked me a question about pre-vocational upgrading schools. What he actually wanted to know was whether it was too late to register -- to enroll. That is what he wanted to know.

But what struck me as odd was that when I asked him why didn't you enroll earlier, he said, "I understood that this school is for those people who are on relief." Now I told him this was a misunderstanding, that the only requirement was that he was to be registered with :he National Employment Service and be unemployed. He heard certain criticisms of the school -- I don't know where he got them but evi dently he thought it was kind of a melting pot where undesirables enrolled so as to get paid for their time.

I don;t think that any such criticism -- and I told him -- is timely at this time because this V<:Jnture is a new venture and I understand it's a federal-provincial plan. In my op inion,. even if 50 percent of the students who venture into this, if 50 percent of them are in earnest I think that the plan is worthwhile. I would say that before anybody criticizes any new venture like that they should give it a try first. But I am interested to know whether it is too late to enroll because he'll be calling me again. MR . JOHNSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's not too late to enroll.

I'd like to inform the House that this basic training program has been launched on a very large scale now and tills is for, as he knows, the unemployed whose academic qualifications are low or quite low. Beginning with the 1st of January the program began to move at an accelerated pace and my latest figures, as of the 21st of February, we have a grand total of 951 enrolled in these classes February 26th, 1964 . Page 493

(Mr. Johnson cont'd) •.•.. at St. Pierre, Winnipegosis , Dauphin, Plum Coulee, St. Malo , , Brandon, The Pas , Flin Flon, Neepawa, Portage , at William Avenue -- the older teachers' school, the MIT at Brooklands and out at Tuxedo , Strathcona Hall -- sorry , there's 917 actually in school. This has proven most successful. The courses are of three months' duration and it depends on the progress in the course and so on how they get along. It's mainly basic science, arithmetic and English , with the hope to upgrade them to the point where they can come into the trade first and go on to the trade school.

However, every encouragement is given to them and if they are not down to business , as one inspector says , we "turf them out ·� We don't want this any sitting place for anyone to recline. I'm sure most of the reports �I have show a keen interest on behalf of many people. I should mention that the allowances-are paid under the federal-provincial agreement and I think this has resulted in the tremendous volume which we have experienced in the last month and a half. MR . TANCHAK: One could apply for an application to enter? Because I wasn't .. . . MR .

JOHNSON: All these cases are registered through the National Employment Service by contacting the local school inspector in the area or the department or the Employ me nt Service and he will be directed to a centre for study. MR . MARK G. SMERCHANSKI (Burrows) : Mr. Chairman, I'd like to bring to the attention of the Honourable Minister some of the problems that new industry runs into in refer ence to the vocational and technical training schools. Now as we all know, we in this province are trying to expand our economy and this is going to call for new industry.

This is a matter of great concern to the technical schools because a new industry cannot bring in people to tr ain, nor can a new industry draw upon trained personnel if it's being located in a province li ke Manitoba.

I feel that our technical and vocational training schools would do well to try and work jo intly with industry, and when I say jointly with industry I don't mean with that in dustry that has been established, because an establishe d industry can train its own people Now when you ask a new industry to locate in Manitoba it is difficult enough for this new industry to fight for its own new markets, look after its own promotional sales , personnel, and advertising , and it seems that labour entering into this field of new endeavour looks upon it as a matter of job opportunity, and the thing is that these new jobs are classified or integrated into the average Canadian type of wage being paid in this particular line .

Nine times out of ten this personnel is not trained, therefore you have to undertake a completely new training pr ogram, and I feel that the vocational schools should be part and parcel of this training in reference to the location of new industry. I think it would be well to look into the possibility of the apprenticeship type of training , the same type as we have over in Europe. Now , I spoke briefly on this matter last year. On one of our trips with the Trade Mission in Germany we came across a school that was training fur-cutters.

It was a very I unimportant, small insignificant sort of an operation but this particular training was train- ing fur-cutters that were going to all parts of Europe. These fur-cutters spent four days doing actual practical work and spending the equivalent of one day in school, and I think that it is not so much a matter of building a large building and having a great deal of classrooms - and· I again say I have no quarrel with this approach because this is undoubtedly the approach that has been taken to get this program off its feet.

I also feel that there is too much emphasis being placed on the word "electronics" , because this is a changing world and unless we in our approach to this technical vocational training are prepared to change with the times we will find that we may be three or four years behind in keeping up with the industrial development in the field of electronics. I specifically mention this because I think that if the members of this House don't know it, that the type of electronics and pieces qf equipment we used four years ago today are completely out-dated.

Now this just gives you some small insight into the impact that the vocational school has to be able to take upon itself in order to keep up with industry, to be able to train personnel for in dustry and to keep along with industry.

After all, the purpose of your training and vocational school is primarily to put these people into industry, whether it is in the secretarial field or personnel field or the chem ical trade or the industrial trade ; and I think that we have been in Manitoba missing the point completely in that on the one hand we are trying to encourage new industries, new growth and Page 494 February 26th, 1964.

(Mr . Smerchanski cont'd) .... • this places not just the ordinary type of burden of establish ing a new industry, but you can multiply it by three or four so that anybody undertaking the establishment of a new industry in the province is working four times as hard as the average man who will expand the industry that exists in this province . I think that the technical and vocational schools should be dovetailed to fit into this ·program if this province wants to provide-more employment for the people in Manitoba.

And I want to tell you that unless we are prepared to do that , we can have the nice st , the biggest, the best staff, the best trained vocational 'school , and we will not be able to achieve our final objective that we initially set out to accomplish. And I say this , Mr .

Chairman, not in criti cism , but I say this in terms of real honest approach to this problem, bec ause I know we have st andard courses and I am very much impressed with the courses that are outlined in some of the se pamphlets , but let us not be tied down to the se standard courses and say that we must not vary from the se courses because they have been established as being standar d. I think that a definite understanding of exchange of ideas should be set up in reference to ind ustry and the vocational training schools .

Now I am also very much in favour that personnel should be partially trained in the field of new industries in conjunction with the vocational schools . Now I can speak with ex pe rience because I know that some of the undertakings that I have been involved in, one of the . most critical ones that face us is a matte r of trained personnel , and we have to go outside the province to engage this personnel in order to fulfil the requirements that we are set up to do. Now in the last year we have had to call on -- in my particular experience -- on ten people from out of the province.

And the question was: why couldn't we get them within the province ? We found out that there was no such industry in the province and therefore you naturally go to the industry where it has been established in order to draw on trained personnel.

I think that our objective and our method of the technical and vocational schools are completely missing this point , and if we are going to put more emphasis on new industry ; if we are going to put new emphasis on more export; then we should definitely put more emphasis on bringing the se people out of the vocational schools into the new industry that's being es tab lished and train them jointly.

Because this , I think , will really develop far more jobs than just saying, "Well we have a graduate from a vocational school; he is trained; he has his di ploma, " but then the job that he is called to do might be slightly different and it is only when he has been able to work with his hands and realizes the responsibility of what he is asked to do in that particUlar job that he is undertaking, then he is going to be a better man, because with hi.s background from a vocational school plus his practical training in the industry itself , then this individual can truly contribute something in the way of becoming a regular employee of the new indust ry.

I only bring this to your attention in that I do think some sort of apprenticeship should be established. Now just in what manner or in what meth od , I am quite sure that we have very capable people who are heading our vocational training program and I think that they can work out some sort of an arrangement which would be beneficial to the government that is sp ending the money; to the vocational school that has been set up to try to achieve this purpose; and to new industry that has been set up to try and create more employment. MR . ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks) : Mr.

Chairman, I rise to thank the Honour able Member for Burrows .for his statement in regard to the lack of liaison between industry and our vocational schools . It has come to my attention that a plywood factory in the north that has been closed for several years has bean opened, and because of the lack of trained help its future is very much in doubt .

I think that here is an opportunity for our Department of Industry and Commerce when they knew that this was to be taken over again and put into production to make more jobs for Manitobans , that the technical schools could have been consulted and a course could have been arranged in the knowledge of phenolic glues, which is so important to the making of plywood, and I think that this point brought up by the honourable member is a very very good one and I think of paramount importance if we're ever to get any teamwork be tween our vocational schools and industry . MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister was kind enough to send me over a bro chure outlining -- or a synopsis of courses for the Institute of Technology. Now I note in this that reference is made to other type s of courses, a:.;c I had these in mind also when I was February 26th, 1964. Page 495

(Mr . Paulley cont'd) .. .... speaking a few moments ago, pre -employment courses and also the trades cou rses at the institute . Now most of the brochures that have been sent over to me, and I believe some have been distributed to the mem bers , deal with the technological training.

It is my underst anding that' there seems to be an amalgamation here between the Department of Labour and the Department of Education as far as the training that is going on at the sc hool although I note that under this particular item , Director of Cbcu:rntimal Education , apprentice ship training expenditures of some $56 ,0 00 is include d here too . Now I wonder if the Minister could obtain for me insofar as the trades cou rses are concerned an outline of -- or a synopsis of the studies that are given in connect ion with these various trades.

Now the Minister mentioned while he was speaking that he was pleased to present diplomas -- and I noted that myself in the paper where my friend was up there . It showed his very charming self handing out a document or two to some of the graduates a month or so ago.

He mentioned a moment ago that he was hand.ing :mt diplomas for meat- cutting and other phases in our industrial life , and I note here though there are some cou rses , reading from the synopsis dealing with pre -employment cou rses, the following courses which are from three to twelve mont hs' duration are on a trade rather than a technological level . They are offered primarily at the request of industry and the trade school division . Now I believe this is the type of diploma that my honourable friend was handing out.

Now I don't know the first thing about meat -cutting except when the wife asks me to cut up the roast -- when we have one occas ionally -- but I doubt very much whether even in the me at e utting industry -- maybe one of my colleagues could put me on the straight and narrow in this -- whether a course of two months ' duration , or three months ' to twelve months ' duration could equip an individual so that they could go into one of our large abattoirs and qualify as a mea t-cutter, or whether in this period of time from three months to twelve months the individ ual concerned would qualify as a full-fledged butcher.

This was the point, Mr . Chairman , that I was attempting to establish when I was talking previously, that many of the graduates who re ceive a slip of paper to the effect that they are now a mea t-cutter are under the impression that this gives them an "open sesame" into industry , and this is the word of caution that I was trying to raise at that particular time. But I would apprec iate it if my honourable friend could give me a more detailed out line of what is done -- I'm particularly interested, Mr . Chairman, to conf ess , in the upholster ing cou rse .

I happen to be an upholsterer by trade myself and I'm particularly interested to see what type of an upholsterer we'd have after twelve months of training. I've been at the trade now for 40 years myself and still don't know very much about it, and I think this is true of ma ny other me chanics. So I ask my honourable friend -- now I don't know whether he's the 1 proper one, or it should be the Minister of Labour , although it is under the es timates of the Department of Education -- if we could have that further information as to the breakdown of what was actually being taught. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman , I think that the member for Burrows made a very usef ul contribution to the discuss ion on this matter of vocational training. The member is sp eaking as a knowledgeable individual who has been active in business and knows the problems of training people . I wonder if the Minister of Education and the Minister of Labour have got together on this serious problem of on-the -job training.

It has been reported to me that the increase in the minimum wage -- which I think most of us favour -- means in a num ber of cases that we are imposing on industry an addi tional cost in the early stages , where an individual starts in a new job and that in order to ke ep our industry here on a competitive level with other areas that more should be done both to the advantage of labour itself and of industry in the field of on-the-job training men tioned by the member f9r Burro ws.

Could the Minister indicate whether action is being taken in this regard in conjunction with the Labour Department and the Department of Educa tion ? HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare) (The Pas) : Mr. Chairman, while I was out of the House for a minute I understand that the Member for Seven Oaks made some com ment about the Birch River Plywood Plant and the fact .that it wasn't able to operate succe ss fu lly because of the lack of trained personnel . I would just like to point out to him from my own perso nal knowledge that this plant is operating.

I understand it is operating very Page 496 February 26th, 1964.

I (M r. Carroll cont'd) .... satisfa ctorily and it is operating with the assistance of an instruc tor that was provided by the Department of Education. They secured a man from British Columbia who is working at that plant and has been , I understand, since January on a full time basis with the employees of the plant and giving after-hours instructi on as well to any in the area who.w ant to learn something about the techniques of plywood production. My under st anding is that the owner is well satisfied with the instruction and that the course is going along very satisfa ctorily.

As I understand, it is the first on-the-job training program that has been sponsored by the Department of Education in the Province of Manitoba. MR . ART HUR' E WRIGHT :Can I ans\�er the Ministe r, Mr. Chairma n? The owner of the project told me some weeks ago that he could have doubled the staff if he could have ob-' tained trained personnel ; that while he did apprecia te that they had brought someone from B. C. , he felt that we could have done much more here to have trained people. MR. SMERCHANSKI : Mr.

Chairman , I am a little amazed at the remark made by the Honourable Minister and that is this: is this an inference by this government that every new industry is going to have on-the-job training ? If it is, I've been missing the boat. The thing is , Mr. Chairman , I don't think that the government is obliged to do any thing for one industry it's not obligated to do for the other industry. I think that my remarks , and I again say that my remarks are sincere and I hope that they are taken as such and I hope they're going to be helpful, because I speak with experience and knowledge.

I feel that any industry I bring into the province or anybody else brings into the province , we have just as much reason to look for assistance of job training on that job-site as anybody else has. I am somewhat amazed that this government has seen fit to put a job training instructor into a private industrial enterprise. I'm setting up for your information , Mr. Chair man , close to a $2 million fertilizer plant just at the present time and we can do with many technicians and many chemists , and I'm not looking forward to the governnent for any on-the-job training.

I was not critical and I am not critical of on-the -job training , but sitting here as a member I resent one industry getting preference over another. And the thing that I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister is: is he prepared to give the same assistance and the same treatment to any other new industry that will be established in the province ? . . • • • . continued on next page February 26th, 1964. Page 497

MR. JOHNSON: With respect to this last debate, I1m afraid I'll have to get up-to-da te here, but I do know that courses at Birch River with respect to cutting of plywood started January 13th and it was planned to train a group of workers for three courses of four weeks · each. I understand one course has been finished and the second is operating. An instructor was brought in from the Pacific Coast as a temporary employee of the Department and the owner of the plant in that area advises the deptr.:tment that they have been keeping an eye on this . The kind of employee being turned out is excellent.

Now this is the only instance -- I think we ' re going to have to take a good hard look at the whole problem of training for industry, as the Honourable Member for Burrows mentioned earlier, and training within industry. I think he is ma king that differentiation . He says, 11I want to see you create the kind of jobs and the kind of personnel that I can use in my business but I don't expect you to pay this man while he's working for me. " I think this is the point he is ma king, and in these special areas in the prov ince where new industry comes in, I think we are trying to meet point (

a) of his request:; " (

a) Train the kind of people in the kind of work that we can use; 11 and the special skills in the plywood industry required some instruction and the Department has become involved in this particular project. This was, I say, the initial course started on January 13th of this year . As a matter of interest, this is one of the areas which is a ma tter of policy, of course, and the comm ents of the honourable member are noted. I would like to discuss that further, but with the Department; and in the future I think this is som ething we •re going to have to look at very closely.

However, I do think he would concur in the philosophy that especia lly in these areas such as Birch River we should play our role as an instructional group in training the kind of people that can be used on the job. Now, while I' m on my feet I' m not just -- certainly the liaison referred to by the Leader of the Opposition, that it will be required between Labour and Education, is of param ount import ance, and of course the role of the Department of Education in this regard, and many inter departmental meet ings have been going on between Labour and Education in this whole area of ma npower training.

I think probably the Minister will refer to this in mo re detail in his Estim ates on Labour. However, the role of the Department of' Educatim in this ma npower training is -- I think the biggest single factor is to ma intain our children in our school system as long as possi ble .

That is, we have to cre ate the kirrl of physical accomm odation that will attract them ; we have to have the interesting curricula that will keep the children in school, and do everything we can to increase the holding power of our schools, to impress upon these children that the mo re education, both ma tric and general course and vocational training, that they take in their own facility, in their own home town, the better, and the better prepared they are, the more opportunities there are in the technologies and the trades from there on.

At that point we have to cre ate that happy balance between technical training and the need for same, the require me nts of industry as pointed out by the Member for Burrows. This is the challenge that will require conside rable continuing research and liaison between lab our and educ ation.

Plans are being ma de and this is the full intention of the administra tion to carry this out, but I would say that our role over the next few years is going to be to do everything we can in producing the kind of teachers and the kind of courses that will interest the boys and girls , that will encourage them to take the maximum they can at home, and it's wonderful to see some of the wonderful new high schools throughout our province, which I hope will do j'ust that, and I think it's up to each and every one of us in this Legislat ure, and I think it's going to be up to the Department, to take a mo re vigorous role in encouraging our youth to take this to heart and to stay at home and get all the education they can and take advantage of all the opportunities at the local level, and then we have to prepare the next stage with the university or the trade or technical training.

At the bottom of the sc ale we have to increase the opportunities. flrupgrading of the un em ployed and those wh9 are forced out of the labour market and this, as I have me ntioned, has begun and is becomi ng highly successf ul and is meeting with a lot of enthusia sm, but we can't rest, as the Leader of the Opposition said, and is quite right, the continuing research which will be looked after in our department -- there is an increase in this appropriation for guidance.

We have got to have mo re guidance, we are ma king a start this year and I hope to be able to appoint a Supervisor of Guidance for the coming year to go and see our teachers throughout the Province and in introducing a guidance program. The children need more of this. I think that with respect to on-the -jo b training, I haven •t any firm ideas ; I remember the comm ents from Pa ge 498 February 26th, 1964 .

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd) .. •• the Honourable Member for Burrows are pertinent and we will have to play our proper role in education in providing instructors for practical program s for on-the job training, I think, in the future to some degree. I think we have to be flexible. We can •t be completely inflexible. I would rem ind the Honourable Member from Burro\\6 · that we mustn•t become program -centered and we must be more, as he says, industry and job-centered, at one end of the scale, for a certain type of market.

However, there is a pamphlet Which I will try and get made available to the Honourable Members of the Committee. The one that. was distributed on technology of course -- this is the first time we have had these technology courses -- and this brochure is an inform ational guide. We have the former Technical Institute program , which was produced - - I think� there is an up to-date version where this is current, as to the types of trade where it classifies the indenture trades or the designated trades and so on.

The upholstery course is eight months in the calendar of a year or two ago, calling for in upholstery a complete Grade 9 and the consent of the principal as a prerequisite to entrance here . It outlines the theoretical and practical requirements. The pre-em ployment things men tioned here are three-m onth courses . I don't think you'd make an expert in this short period of time but these are, as I understand it, for indenture trades. This is all in the brochure. It outlines pretty well what these particular things mea n and I think I can make these things avail able to the honourable members. MR.

SMERCHANSKI: I would like to make one more comme nt and I don't wish to belabour the point, but I just can 1t quite understand why special consideration should be given in. one instance and not in another. Apparently there has been some assistance in this job training and yet the1-e·, doesn't seem to be an overall policy. Why should it be done on a piecemeal basis, on a selective basis?

If it is something that is required, it should be given serious study and it should be instituted on a provincial basis available to all new industrie s, because the role of any government is only to create a favourable climate whether it be in labour, finance or taxes or any other matter, and the reason that I take objection to this, Mr. Chairman, is for this reason. We established the only nylon hosiery plant west of Toronto. We had to go to England to draw on fixtures and specialists in the knitting trade and nobody gave us any assistance.

We had to train people on the job and we had to pay full wage s, because if you went to the Depart ment of Labour and after filing various form s and additi.onal forms for corre ction and additional filing, which took about 3.0 to 60 days , and we were in production and on the line in a matter of two w.:e ks, because this is a matter of live or die because of competition, so that, Mr.

Chair man, you can appreciate my concern and the concern of other people who are establishing new industry and who are going into new industry with their own money, their own investment, and then to hear somebody in a responsible position like one of the Ministers come up and say that there is a job-tr aining program in existence, I resent those rem arks and I think that any honest businessma n in the province of Manitoba would resent that, because it seem s to be that when you are establishing a new industry you are. encouililged to put in your money first and every body is willing to come in and share it with you.

You have the headaches of developing new ma rkets ; Y.ou have the headaches of making this industry function; and if there is going to be a handout from the Government I think that every new industry that gets estab lished is just as much entitled to it, as any one selected or singled out for special treatment. The point I make, Mr. Chairman, is that I object most strenuously to this type of treatment, because if this treat ment is in existence this is favoritism and this is most unfair. I want to mE-ntion to the Honourable Minister that I certainly am not trying to be critical for the sake of being critical.

I am very much interested in the growth, the economic growth of Manitoba, and r·have done a lot for it and I am going to do a lot more for it. I like it. There is nothing more challenging than creat ing a new industry, bringing new production, creating new jobs for people in Manitoba, but I certainly think that we can do far more in terms of vocational training on the job, and this should be an overall program and not a selective pro gram to give favoritism to any one particular industry. I'm not going to belabour it any more, Mr.

Chairman, but I am 'lery much put out with this because some of the industries that I have started, they never will pay for themselves in the first, second or third year and you have to be pr.epared to pres ent personal guarantees; have the worries and headaches of finance, and if this sort of thing is going on, I want to know why doesn't every new industry February 26th , 1964 . Page 499

(!vir, Smer chariski, cont 'd) , .• that is established in the province get the same consideration. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge) : Mr. Chairman, I' d like to make just a few general comm ents on what my honourable friend has just said, He has pointed to somet hing that is an important thing in the province . It •s been pointed out by the COMEF Comm ittee and others , that we do require all ma nner of training for skilled people in the province and that on the job training, or training in the industries themselves is to be an impo rtant factor in that.

Well, I think he points out that there hasn •t been an adequate program of training of this kind ir.. the past. A start is being ma de and further plans are being developed. Far from resenting that someo ne else has been given help, I thirik my honourable friend would welcome the fact that a start is in fact being ma de, and as the estimates proceed and as we come to my department, I should be. glad to discuss with him and with the House, other plans that we have in mind along these lines . It is a very large field.

A substantial sta rt is being ma de this year in co-o peration with industry and as it grows it will have beneficial results and I hope we 'll have my honoura,ble friend's enthusiastic support for som ething he obviously believes in and rather than trying to cast blame on the government for one of the starts that has been ma de, I should think he should welcome it as a trend in the right direction. MR. MOLGA T: Mr.

Chairman, it seems to me that there is some confusion on the far side of this House as to what the policy is in this regard because my honourable friend the Member for Burrows is bringing in this matter of on-the-job training as a recomm endation. I under stood from the Minister of Educ ation in his last comments that he had no policy but that he was prepared to look at it -- indicated that he was certainly interested in the suiject ..

The Minister of Welfare gets up and tells us that in his constituency the Department of Education has brought in a teacher from the Province of British Columbia and put him into a plant -- I understood at the expense of the Department of Education, The Member for Blrrows quite properly said, 11Well ·now, is this a general policy; why is it not available to everyone; what exactly is the policy of the Government? This is the problem right at the moment: What is the policy? MR. S. PE TERS (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Education mentioned that there were some people that took a mea t- cutting course.

I wonder if he could tell me how ma ny people took the course ; how long it was ; and when they finished the course, where did they go to work? MR. SMER CHANSKI: Mr. Chairman, ma y I? All I want to say is again I appreciate what the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce has said but really this is com pletely irrelevant because this has nothing to do with the remark that was ma de by the Honourable Minister of Welfare.

The point I ma ke is that I have no quarrel if this is going to be the policy; I have no quarrel if this is going to contribute to a proper function of the vocational school in reference to new industries and new job training. I have no quarrel with this. The quarrel that I have is, that why should we single out one individual; why should we single out one individual industry and :;ive them the benefit of this type of service when no other industry is entitled to it? My quarrel is that I have paddled my own canoe and I think that most new industries est ablished in this province will do like wise .

All we ask for is a favourable field with in which to grow and work. Let the government create favourable conditions; but let government not tell industry what they should do in terms of everyday operation, because industry will never operate under government control as efficiently as it will under private enterprise .

And my point is that I feel very much -- as a ma tter fact I feel verymuch hurt about this thing because I have put a great deal of mo ney into new industry in .this province and I have asked for help from no one, and what burns me up is : why should one particular industry be singled out and given assist ance in this particular situation?

I don •t want to belabour the point and this is the point I made, and I don�t see why others should tell me that, "Well, maybe it's not such a very im portant item . '' To the average business man _that is establishing his own new industry in the province when he •s fighting against odds of creating new ma rkets, advertising, exporting and everything else, this is of vital im portance to him, and this is the point I ma ke, Mr. Chair man. MR.

EVANS: If my honourable friend has a problem in which the department can help in this regard, let him bring it to the department and we will secure him the same help as any industry gets in the same field. My honourable friend has good cause to know that this is the situation with respect to his enterprises, and if he has a problem of training in his plant for Page 500 February 26th , 1964 .

(Mr. Evans, cont'd). .. skilled workers, let him bring it to the department as he has in other cases and he will have the same help as anyone else. MR. SMERCH ANSKI: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commer ce knows only too well that I know his department as well as anybody, and I can tell you that there is very little that I can criticize in reference to the type of man you have working for you in the name of Rex Grose. This is beside the point. This isn•t the point that I•m making. I am not com plaining. I am only complaining about the policy that has been set here.

I know where the Departm ent of Industry and Commer ce is; I know what theiX method of assistance is; they are very co-o perative ; they are very knowledgeable, but the point I make is that I am flabbergasted to find out that by one rem ark today that there is assistance given to a special industry without it being an overall policy. What I'd like to know is, why single out a special situation? Why is it so special? Is it political? Or is it businesslike? What is the reaso n for it? This is all I ask, and I have no other quarrel. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, may I simply tell my honourable friend it is not political and never has been in any case. It is not official in any sense. If he has problems with ·on the-job training, bring them to us . We 1ll bring the same help to my honourable friend as we do to anyone else . If he •d just stop complaining and bring us his problems, we would be glad to work wi.th him to help solve th em . MR. SMERCH ANSKI: Now, Mr. Chairman, might I ask the honourable gentleman, then, does this mea n that you now have got a new policy on job training? MR. EVANS: Yes, you 'll hear about it. MH. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, we certainly require more expla,nations from tlle govern ment at this point because the Minister of Education has certa inly not ma de it clear here that there is a policy of this type. Now the Minister of Welfare tells us that in his constituency - and this I would like to have verification on -- that the Governm ent of Manitoba has brought in a teacher to give on-the-job training in a specif·ic industry. This is my understanding.

Now, I would like to know this: h2s the Governmen t of Manitoba paid to bring this teacher here ; and is the Governm ent of Manitoba paying the salary or wages of this teacher and exactly what is the understanding? Secondly, what other industries are presently being supplied with this service ? MH. JOHNSON: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to on-the-job training, the only position within on-the-job training that I have in these estimates to my knowledge -- and l 1ve perused them -- was for the first time bringing an instructor in in the plywood industry to help and this was part of, as I recall, one of the recomm endations of the commu nity development officer in that area -- I stand to be corrected -- but in our attempts to help the people in this area, and to assist them to help themselves and this was a concrete example of where training within industry we could bring in an instructor and assist in this field.

I know of no other instance where we have moved in this direction. I believe that the Minister of Industry and Commerce will be telling of other plans of government policy with tr aining within industry, and the extent to·which the government will enter this phase of job training. While Il:n on my feet, I would like to say to the Member for Elmwood, there were on the 31s t of ,January, 1964, 12 people taking a me at-.cutting cour se, which is a three-m onth course, and des:lgned for those who wish to be employed as me at-cutters in restaurants, hotels and so on.

I cannot advise where the two cir three that I saw graduate a short time ago -- I reca ll asking one of them and I think he was going to work for one of the packing houses - Canada Packers or one of those - at leaGt this is what he advised me. I could get so me more firm statistics on that if he wishes. Grade 10 minimum for that one. MH. PETERS: Mr. Chairman, if they are offering these cour ses and if people graduate and the goveriunent is spending money on these courses, they should be interest ed enough to know what happens to these people after they have passed. Do they just go out on the street again? MR.

JOHNSON : Do you expect the Minister of Education, Mr. Member from Elmwood, to know where every single graduate of the educational system goes? MR. PETERS: At the start I would expect him to, yes! MR. JOHNSON: Beg pardon? MR· PETERS: I would expect you to at the start to find out how your program is February 26th , 1964 . Page 501

(Mr. Peters, cant 'd) .•. , progre ssing and is it doing good? I would expect you to find out where they are going. MR. JOHNSON : Of course it's doing good. MR. PETE RS: Maybe you are training people to go to work in plants that are not under government inspection in to these plants that we are trying to cut out. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, this program has been going on for many, many years. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman, last year, the. government released the statement that they were introducing a course for comm ercial fishermen and that 25 fishermen were taking this cour se, I believe, at the Manitoba Teachers College. Where did these fishermen come from ? Did they come from one particular lake ? Did they come from various lakes in the prov ince, and what type of course is given to these fishermen? MR. JOHNSON: I know something about this from my association with these people in the Federation of Fishermen.

Many of them were invited, technologists, members of the fish companies, mem bers of the Manitoba Federation of Fishermen were invited out to the course at the university for -- I forget -- the former Minister of Mines and Natural Resources laid on the cou rse, or arranged for it with the university authorities and could probably report on it further. MR. GUTT ORMSON: Mr. Chairman, did the fishermen pay for this course themse lves or was it gove·rnment-sponsored? HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Health) (Flin Flan): Mr.

Chairman, the course that the honourable me mber speaks of was a course that was held at the Manitoba Teachers College and was arranged with the Department of Education. The people were selected by the fishermen's representatives in the Department of Fisheries and included both Indian and Metis and other fishermen around the various lakes in the province and some of the industry people.

If I rec all correct ly, it ran for a period of about two weeks and all costs involved were sus tained by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources .and the Department of Labour, and .I believe some were sustained by the Department of Welfare. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, this has been a mo st interesting afternoon, particularly since wc started 1n on the question of job training and government leadership - - if we call it government leadership -- on an endeavour to provide for industry-trained personnel.

Now I know quite frequently we in this corner of the House are condemned, chastised and criticized because we suggest to Governm ent that they should take the leadership in industry and in the development of industry, and we are accused of suggesting governmental interference in this all-hallowed aura of free enterprise.

We are severely chastised, and I know many me mbers in this House, champions of free enterprise who hate and reject any interference of government into making provisions for the expansion of industry at the governmental levels, want to attempt to burn us in this little corner that I happen to lead, because we suggest that government and I ....• in the use of government is in this very area.

Now we have heard from some of the champions of free enterprise in this Assembly here today, criticizing the government because they're not doing enough in the field of governmental assistance for free enterprise in the training . . . • We have heard complaints that "because Joe gets it and I don •t " we have heard complaints because one area gets it and another doesn •t; and it pinpoints as far as .I'm concerned, Mr.

Chairman, what we in this corner said that government must give leadership because of the failure of the free enterprise system under which we are living to give proper direction in industry, and while if one studies the COME F Report there is contained in that report many statements that says that government shouldn 't interfere with industry, and I'm sure that the authors wendhinking of a financial nature, there is the reco gnized acceptance of the fact that government must come to the aid of industry today, because after all, while. we may talk about this as much as like, that we •re coming to the aid of the poor individuals , the unemployed basically, we •re more concerned about putting the unemployed to work in order that greater profits for free enterprise may be created.

This is what is happening here in the PrOI'ince of Manitoba today. I was very interested - and I would like an expansion of his thoughts -- I was very interested a short time ago when my friend, the Leader of the Opposition, ma de a statement which went something like this: "Governm ent through its agencies created a minimum wage which I think, 11 to use his words, "most of us accept. " Now th en, I would like to ask my honourable friend what he means by Page 502 February 26th , 1964 .

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd). .. that when he says -- and I presume that he was spe aking for the Liberal Party of Manitoba -- when he says " a minimum wage which most of us accept. " would like to ask my honourable friend does he me an that in the acceptance of this me agre 80 cents an hour or 75 cents an hour that was awarded by the Minimum Wage, does he think that this is too much? Does he think it is too little ?

Does he thi.nk that the complaints that have baen raised here insofar as job training and the provision of adequate staffs in industry concerned would be taken care of simply, simply if we were to revert back to the days where we had true free enterprise in industry where the workers were subject to persecu tions at any time by their employers and paid without governmental interference anything that the traffic could bear? So I say, Mr.

Chairman, it is very intere sting for us to listen to the complaints, because the government isn•t doing sufficient in job training from the free enterprises, who resent any interference in. government at all, that we just simply historically go back a few years to the days when my father and the fathers of many others were -- I don •t say that this was correct -- but I reca ll my dad telling me, "Well Russ, you 1re living in a different age than I am , but when I was seven and eight or nine, I was indentured to a tradesman in my little town back in Dorset, England. This was my livelihood.

I'm glad we•ve advanced. 11 I'm wondering whether the proponents of free enterprise would suggest that rather than government taking the activities the least of it is that we should go back to that type of system so that they m·ay be the gainers. HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-Iberville): Mr. Chairman, while we are on the subject of on-job training, I think it give s me leave to speak on an aspect of that kind of training. In the Department of Agriculture for generations now we have accepted the role of government in on-job training. Last night, Mr.

Chairman, some of the deficiencie s in our program were pointed out to the committee, but to demonstrate the goodwill and our anxiety and enthusiasm, I would .like to take this opportunity to present our Agricultural Farm Account Book to the Honourable Member for Neepawa, and I hope that it will help him in the managem ent of his hog enterprise, because we are really behind this . I was a little afraid that the little flower would wilt before the rest of the people got through talking. MR. NE LSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, I appreciate very much the sentiment that has come with this.

I don•t know whether I should open it here or not, but I hope that my honourable friend has autographed it for me, because I intend to present one to my daughter and to keep the other one for myself. Thank you very kindly indeed, Now I think, Mr. Chairman, that this might be a time to comme nt on an

article that appears in today's Tribune . It is headed 11Weir says that too few farmers showed up " and they are not talking about my honourable friend from Minnedosa either. They are talking about Dean Weir. "Weir says that too few farmers showed up, 11 and it is at the conference that is presently being held out at the university. 11 Dean Weir says in an interview that while mo re than 200 farm ers were attending this week's farm ·conference at the university, he is concerned about the other 39, 800 who didn't show up." Well, Mr.

Chairman, surely it would be nice to have the 40, 000 farmers out there but -- yes, my honourable friend from St. Boniface says they'd have to leave somebody home to milk the cows, and I dot.•t suppose that he would vol unteer to do that -- but is enough being done -- MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Is this still on education or .•.. MR. DESJARDINS: It certainly would be on-the-job training, Mr. Chairman. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, are we not on these various job training -- does this not come under the Department of Education, the conferences ••.. ? Pardon? MR. CHAIRMAN: No. MR .

SHOEMAKE R: It comes under Education or Agriculture or both, Mr. Chairman. This is job training. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

b) of Student Instruction - it is under this one item that we have got - Vocational education. MR . SHOEMAKER: Well we were talking about the fishermen trekking back to school a little while ago, and the meat cutters trekkin_g.back to school, and now I'.m talking about the 200 farm ers that are trekking back to school, MR. CHAffiMAN: I rather think that because you received your lead from the Minister of February 26th, 1964 . Page 503

(Mr. Chairman, cont'd) ... Agricult ure, it's som ething that belongs under Agricult ure. MR. SHOEMAKER: You would prefer that I raise it at that time? Thank you kindly, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAY: Mr .

Chairman, yesterday I directed a question-to the Minister of Educ ation about the curricul um , and before -- he tried to reply but som ebody else interfered, because mo st of the members here are all great educationalists and they take the prerogative of getting up every minute they feel like it, I would still like to get an answer to it, I looked through the 12 2-,page mem orandum on the curriculum and I cannot find one single line -- mi nd you, I have only perused it once; probably I' ll find it on the se cond or third time of reading it -- on this question which I have asked which is extremely imp ortant to me and extrem ely important to the people in Manitoba, imp ortant to education, just as important to agriculture, and while we are dealing with this , we •ve stepped into another ....•. entirely, but this has not been answered and I would like to get a reply to it either now or later on, I cannot find it in anything in your pres entation or mem orandum we have on the curriculum development since 1960 that they have tabled today, If I mi ght get an answer, then I'l l ask another question, MR.

JOHNSON: Mr . Chairman, if the honourable member will turn to page 111 of this thing that was distri buted he will see that this was a commi ttee working in conjunction with the cur riculum comm ittee on health, reviewing the health texts, also I can inform the honourable member that the Director of Curricula advised rne yesterday that the Medical Directors of our Health Unit in the Department of Public Health, and Dr.

Medovy, the Professo r of Pediatrics at the University, I think were meet ing yesterday afternoon or this afternoon, ag:ain looking at curricula revisions and il.pdating of all health material that is used in the school syste m. As he knows, Dr. Medovy is particularly concerned about the education of sm oking and alcohol studies am ongst children as is the Director of Health Services for the province who are the close advisors to the Director of Curricula.

I think he can be assu red that these outstanding gentlemen and mem bers of the committee, as listed on page 111 ther.e, can be counted upon to bring the necessa ry ma terial into the courses as they are updated and revised from year to- year. ' I also think that a tremendous am ount of work, as he knows, goes on through the Department of Health Education, where a whole division is est ablished to bring preventative measures in as a preventative service, educ ating the public; and a vast library of films and educational mat erials; health ullitG and staff across the Province of Manitoba who are available 24 hours a day to assist the Manitoba com munity become informed and prevent disease, and when it does occur to render free treatment in mo st of the social diseases -- in fact all of them that I know of.

So I think he should be very proud of the fact that this province is doing practic ally everything that can be done in pursuing these paths vigorously, and this is quite aside from any activity that ma y occur in these estimates on education. So you have the Department of Health Education; you have the leading men in our comm unity working in close harmony, in liaison with those people who are developing our text in health curricula throughout our school syst em. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one mo re question, and this is, since when has this program outli ned, as you have outline d now, begin?

We have been advocating it now for a long, long time and he has just told us now, unle ss I am wrong, that Dr. Medovy and the others are just meeting this afternoon. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, I heard all about this when I was in publi c school in 1935 in the biology text o{ that day. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the NDP has asked :ne certain questio ns, and while my responsibility to answer questions to him would only arise when after the next election I take my seat over on the far side -- MR. PAULLEY: ....... Honourable Member for St. Boniface would still be here. MR.

MO LGA T: I would like to put his mind at rest, Mr .

Chairman, because I don •t like to see the honourable member disturbed, I' d like to assure him that I am a free enterpriser, and that I believe�in the free enterprise system, because I believe that this is the system that will provide the greatest welfare for the greatest number of people and permit for every indiv idual the ma ximum development of his own capacity, But I believe that today government has a greater part to play in making sure that the individual has the ma ximum permission, or max imum opportunity for his development, and that is why I encourage the activities of government in those fields where free enterprise either does not, or cannot, or will not take the activity Page 504 February 26, 1964

(Mr. Molgat, cont1d ). .. that it should. In the field of on-the-job training, therefore, Mr. Chairman, my position is very clear, and what I said about the minimum wage is also very clear.

I stated that the members of this House had approved of an increase in the minimum wage but that we do get complaints, and I have had com plaints, from industry that the increase of the minimum wage in a number of cases puts them in the initial stages where they are training individuals in an unfavourable competitive . position with other provinces having a lower minimum wage ; that therefore we should look, ·a s we do in the field of education where we train pe ople -- that 's the purpose of ou.rt echnical schools to train people for employment in industry -- to permit those pe ople to have gainful employment.

Therefore , following on this, if we can find that on-the-job training provides better opportunities -- and I think in a number of cases it will because it is here to the specific industry, the spe cific job at hand, that we must look at this project. · Thl.s brings us then to the point that we were discussi ng, Mr. Chairman, that we •re en couraging the government on the far side to have a policy of on-the-job training. We found from the Minister of Welfare that in the case of a particular industry they have this, and our quest ion now is: what is the overall policy of the government?

I asked the Minister, is it correct that in this particular case the government went out and found an instructor for the birch -- or for the plywood factory? Did the government take the steps to find the instructor ? Sec ondly, did the government pay to bring the instructor here? Thirdly, is the government paying his salary, or part of his salary, in that capacity of on-the -job training? Then the next question: what other industries are pres ently getting this assi stance ? MH.

JOHNSON: I am sure that as a free enterpr iser, the Leader of the Opposition is all in favour of the Community Development program in Manitoba where obviously for m:my reaso ns on-the -job -- if there •s anything that can be done on the job in upgrading and making it poss ible for pe ople to become employed, this should be done .

In this particular instance, as I understa nd it, and for the first time insofar as the Departm ent of Education program is con cerned, in addition to the various pre-em ployment basic training clas ses, and so on, for the first time the department hired a full-time instruct or, brought him from British Columbia and got him to help teach these pe ople in the Birch River area the knDw-how in the making of ply wood.

The specific term s of reference to date were three courses of four-week courses for men to come in relays and learn this trade -- and as I said, one has finished and one is operating and a third is coming. The department advised me that the owner of the plant in this particular Birch River pro ject where there is a plywood industry going, has been most impressed with the kind of people that are coming on to the jobs. Now I think that on-the-job training or this kind of endeavour - again, my honourable friend says government must cre ate the environn,ent for industry to thrive; governm ent must do this.

I think there is a role for government from time to time in being practical in assis ting the people . I think we are concerned with the pe ople in this area, that they learn the skill so they can gain em ployment and we don •t have to go outside the pro vince to bring these pe ople in here to make plywood -- and I understand .this has proven highly succes sful. It's definitely been a "first " on an experimental basis . The department had no idea how it would work out, and ins ofar as I am concerned, it bears a great scru tiny.

As to what other working with industry I think we have to explore wherever pos sible the on-the- job training opportunities that may present them selves in the province. I don •t think we can be pragmatic ; I think we have to be flexible; I think we have to play our role . We do this under the guise of com munity development in other areas and I can say no mo re on this subject insofar as this departmc:nt is concerned at this time. MH. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, ..•..... fD the Minister and the rem arks of the Leader of the Opposition.

I' m glad that he realizes that even if he does as a resu lt of another election move over on that side , he recognizes the fact that de spite the challenge issued the other night from the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, that I will still be here in this House. I was intrigued with what my honourable friend said about job training and the ques tion of maximum freedom of the individual, or to the individual, but I notice als o, Mr. Chairman, that he skirted the question that I directed to him -- rather cleverly -- in reference to the minimum wage .

Now I asked him whether he supported the minimum wage in Manitoba, and he replied by saying that a number of people have come to him suggesting that for the purposes of on-the-job February 26, b964 Page 505

(Mr. Paulley, cant). .. training that maybe we shouldn •t have the minimum wage that it is now- interj ec tion -- Oh, yes you did. Now I directly want to ask my honourable friend, is or is he now -- to use the vocabulazy of the Honourable Member for Gladstone-Neepawa -- is or is he not in favour of this very low minimum wage of 75 cents per hour that we •ve got in the Province of Manitoba? This is what I want to hear from my honourable friend.

I don •t want any poppycock about whether it's linked up with job training or whethe r it's not, because I respect fully suggest that even if a perso n is entering into this so -called free enterprise -- which is neither enterprising nor free -- system that we •re operating under today, that that ;:a :rticular individual is entitled to a fair remunera tion for the services that they're providing, Not that I think 75 cents is fair -- I certainly don't.

But the inference of my honourable friend 's rem arks -- and I think he was som ewhat supported by my friend the Minister of Education that there may be some allowances because of off-the-job training, and I suggest that this is not proper. Now my honourable friend is looking at me with a skeptical eye, and maybe I• ve misi nterpreted him, but I• m darn sure I didn't mis interpret my friend the Leader of the Opposition. So, Mr.

Chairman, I want to know from my honourable friend where he stands in respect of this minimum wage of 75 cents, because I recall, I recall at one of the Manitoba Liberals -- I' m not sure whether they were progre ssi ve at that time or not -- Party Conventions, there was a considera ble dispute as to whether or not there should be any increase from the 68 cents which was the min imum wage at that time. If I reca ll corre ctly there was one delegate there worried about whether that would necessi tate the increase in the price of a cup of coffee from ten to fifteen cents if it went up six cents per hour.

I don't know what his business was like. But I do want to know from my honourable friend where he stands, because -- and I don•t want any subterfuge on this by him saying, "Well some of my friends and some pe ople have drawn to my attention that maybe we shouldn't have this in order to assist on-the-job training program s. " MR. MOLGA T:_ Mr. Chairman, I will ask your indulgence to allow me to answer this question. I appreciate I• m trespassi ng on the rights of the House in proceed ing to do so, but if I m ay have the indulgence of the House I would like to make this clear.

My honourable friend is purposely twisting exactly what I said. My statement was very simple, that I had approved of the increase, and that the maj ority of the mem bers of this House, in my opinion, had approved of the increase, but if there were complaints that this me ant reduction in employment because of a higher wage in the initial stages of industry, then we should be prepared to do som ething -- not in the reduction of the minimum wage but in· more on-the-job training to make these people more effective at that level , That is the very simple statement that I made .

My honourable friend needn 1t twist it, or needn •t try to pretend anything else. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

b) passed (

c) passed, (

d) passed MR. WRIGHT •... (

d) here, Directorate of Special Service s. I1 d like to say a word there , Mr. Chairman, I' d like to refer to Page 63 of the Annual Report of the Departm ent of Educat ion -- to say a word about these special servi ces. There •s a set of figures here at the bottom of page 63 that has to do with the enrollment of Hutterite children, and while I •m a great admirer of the brethren in som ways, I am disappointed in their attitude toward education.

In 19 60, I believe , the Hutterite brethern submitted some Bills of Incorporation for the considera tion of this Assemb ly, and when these bills went to Law Amendments Commi ttee they were strenuously opposed, and one of the item of opposition was that these pe ople did very little towards educat ion. l'm just wondering now when we look at the figures and see 151 chi ldren enrolled in Grade 1 and only two of those get to Grade 10, it amazes me.

On the other page we have a set of figures which have to db with schools in the backwoods, or schools that the Departm ent is looking after in underdeveloped areas that have no sc hool distric ts, and even there, while the figures are not good, we see of a total of 291 enrolled in Grade 1, we have at least 18 getting to Grade 10, and I just wonder whethe r the pe ople of Manitoba really are aware of the fact that these people, while we do respect .their way of life and they are good law-abiding citizens, I just want to raise the point that I am very disappointed in their attitude toward education.

Page 506 February 26, 1964 I I

MR. GRA Y: Mr. Chairma.J., as this is the last item on the estima':es of Educati on , I'd like to express to the administratio!J., and particularly to the Minister of Education, my delight in th·eir accepting finally, after years and years of efforts, the establishment of a home for the dea'f. As always they are years la':e, but it is better late than never, and we, our group , are..proud that we always lay a foundation of progre ss and the administration in charge of the provinc e, eithe r on., party or the other have always come late but at least they do come .

And at the same time I want to .express that under the circu.nst ances th ere was some criticism in the corridors today about the way that the Minister of Education handled his esti mate s. I don't think anybody else in the Ho::tse coul d have handled it better under the circum stance:s, and uext time I want to advise the First Minister ..•........ : Give your graduates a po;;t-graduate before you put him to definite responsi bility. :M:R. CHAIRMi\N: The Me mb•;r for Emerson. MR. TANCHAK: I just have one mo:-:e item, and I want some clarification here. This has to do with the branch of Visual Educat ioil.

We know that the different departments have prints or film si:rips .. The Department of AgricuttUJ:e, I understand, has CJ!l>� wh ich we like to refer to · "as this brain-washing film on the floodwa y"- ·- they haven 't seen it yet so may be it isn't a brain-washing film . The Department of Education has films used for visual instruction in elassroo ms. There an ·some com plaints t'hat there are not eno::t gh prints at the present time. Teachers reqae st certain numbers aad they cannot get th•; m. I'll just give you two -- this compl aint was given to me . Six John A.

Macdonald -- one of the teach ers last week asked fo:- the film, Sir John .� . Macdonald, and \1e was told that it's booked till May; he cannot get it. And anot her one was "Rasp onsible Gov ernmen t. " I wonder and -- I believe that the new Minister will took into this and wh ere he deems it ne cessa ry to increase the num!:er it would be adv:lsable to make more introductions of the more impo rtant films. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chair ma.1, th at could be done unless th at's one of th os e terribly expensive films which the Department try to ge t for teache rs from time to time .

They have the ir own library, then there are special films which I undec-stand somet imeil are very costly, but I'll look into the -- and they try to distribute the m as much as possi ble . How ever, I'll take that under advisement. MR. M. N. HRYHORCZ UK, Q. C. (Et helbert Plains): Mr . Chai rman, I would like the Honourable Mini.ster to give us a breakdown of this particular branch and just what are the se special se rvices and how mo.;eh of this money is allo tted to the variou.s parts of th at particular service. MR. JOF.E\fSON: The first item is $169,4 03. 00.

This includes the staff -- this year the r3 is an increase of staff for one ..... buildings Eor special sch ools , anot he r teacher for the deaf and blind, an institutional teache r, supervis

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-20
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 20.pdf
Language	en
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