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June 3, 1992

35th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

The House met at 1332.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

JOBS ONTARIO TRAINING FUND

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): It is with much concern that I note the devastation that the recent withdrawal of the federal government's unemployment benefits

section 26 program has caused many constituents in my riding. I cannot emphasize enough what a crippling blow it is for the

section 26 recipients to have not only their benefits taken away but also their chances for returning to school and receiving retraining ripped from under them.

I firmly believe that people are this province's number one resource. Obviously then, investing in training and skills development is one of the best investments this province can make. So it is with great interest that I have noted the Minister of Skills Development's recent Jobs Ontario training fund. The description for the program reads "a jobs and training fund to help employers hire and train unemployed workers."

It is clear that this is an ideal response to the difficulties experienced by over 400 Cornwall-area adults who have suffered the

section 26 cutbacks, as well as many other unemployed adults in my riding. In conclusion, I must insist that the Minister of Skills Development and the Premier of Ontario provide my constituents with a full opportunity to renew and expand their skills through the Jobs Ontario strategy.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): Last week the Minister of Education furtively introduced Bill 20, which will require all school boards to offer junior kindergarten after August 31, 1994. He did not even have the courage to make a ministerial statement about the bill. No wonder, when the Peel Board of Education, Canada's largest public school board, has had to cancel its junior kindergarten program because of a budgetary shortfall. Six thousand students will be affected, while 190 positions have been eliminated.

The Minister of Education had the nerve to call the Peel Board of Education irresponsible for cutting junior kindergarten, even though many of the board's problems stem directly from actions by the NDP socialist government. Last year, the NDP gave civil servants a 5.8% wage hike which set a trend for other contracts, including those with teachers in Peel. Then the Bob Rae government gave school boards only a 1% increase in transfer payments this year. The Peel board cannot meet its contractual obligations without cutting programs and staff.

Two months ago, I wrote to the minister urging him to help the Peel board solve its problems, but I have yet to receive a reply. I assume that Bill 20 is his response. He is telling school boards they must provide junior kindergarten and if they can't afford it, too bad -- make cuts in other areas or hike property taxes.

When will this NDP government learn that it must not mandate new programs in schools without providing the funds? Property taxpayers cannot afford higher taxes. Tragically, that means the children, the future of our province, will suffer major cuts in their education.

OPEN HOMES CANADA

Mrs Irene Mathyssen (Middlesex): Last April I reported to the House that a group of community leaders from the city of London had proposed a project called Open Homes Canada. Open Homes Canada is a Canada-wide exchange to foster unity and goodwill. It's a chance for one Canadian to visit with another Canadian and rediscover how much we have in common, what good friends and neighbours we have in this nation, in each other and how important it is for all of us to extend the hand of friendship and tolerance to maintain that strength.

I'm pleased to announce the official launch of Open Homes Canada. Londoners will be opening their homes to receive other Canadians for a four-day visit on the civic holiday weekend of August 1. This exchange will bring people together to share their homes, interests and activities and to understand each other better. This effort is premised on the assumption that government alone cannot solve the current problems facing the country today and that ordinary people from all walks of life have a crucial role to play in preserving Canada.

I know the people in the London area are committed to Open Homes Canada and will open their homes to others. I challenge all to get involved and adopt this program in your own communities. Be a part of Open Homes Canada. A renewed Canada may be only a weekend away.

MINING INDUSTRY

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): This week is Mining Week in Ontario and most know that mining has an impact on the Ontario economy well beyond its mineral worth. All told, mining activity and its spinoffs stimulate $20 billion worth of economic activity resulting in some 212,000 jobs in Ontario.

The recession has taken its toll on the mining industry. The Ontario industry is suffering from a crisis of confidence. It has been shaken by job losses as companies are unable to deal with the declining mineral prices and the rising production costs. Potential mining projects are shelved due to the uncertainty about rules and regulations.

The government talks about casino gambling for Ontario. What they forget is that Ontario is already home to a major game of chance; it's called mining. On the average, only one in 1,000 exploration prospects evolves into a producing mine. Before a base metal mine begins its production stage, it is preceded by eight years of exploration and two years of pre-production development activity.

These are the facts which every minister of this government should be aware of when preparing and considering legislation at the cabinet table. The government must work with the industry, not only to deal with the economic recession but to ensure a future for mining in Ontario. This will be accomplished through a positive climate of investment in which companies and investors can clearly see where their investments are heading.

The Ontario Mining Association will be holding its Meet the Miners reception at Stop 33 in Sutton Place this evening from 5:30 pm to 7:30 pm. I encourage all members of the Legislature to take the opportunity to acquaint themselves with the concerns of this industry.

DRIVER EXAMINATIONS FOR SENIORS

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): My statement is directed to the Minister of Transportation and the minister responsible for seniors' issues.

I find it rather ironic that the minister responsible for seniors' issues is taking such great pains and expense to designate and promote the month of June as Seniors' Month in Ontario, while her colleague the Minister of Transportation continues a discriminatory policy that requires seniors over the age of 70 to undergo automatic driver's licence testing in the event of an accident, regardless of the circumstances.

On one hand, we have a minister telling us that seniors play an important role in society. She tells us that seniors built this province and gave us our heritage, culture and traditions. On the other hand, we have a minister who continues to apply a policy that clearly discriminates against seniors within our society. It is a policy without any foundation or relation to competence, negligence, risk or driving record; it simply focuses on age as the only relevant factor.

Driver's licence testing following an accident certainly could be considered a prudent measure for ensuring public safety but only on the provision that such testing is restricted to those charged with causing an accident or those who have displayed a lack of competence in operating a vehicle, regardless of age.

It is right that this government designate the month of June for seniors, but it is wrong for this government to continue with the discriminatory policy of retesting seniors over the age of 70, even when the vehicle they own is parked legally, unoccupied or being operated in a safe and competent manner at the time of the accident.

ACTION READ

Mr Derek Fletcher (Guelph): Today I ask all members of the House to recognize a special group of women. Action Read is a community literacy program in Guelph. Last week in Guelph it launched its first books, two publications funded by the Ontario women's directorate.

The books are Street Mother, written by literacy learner and activist Shirley Almack, and Women: Where Have We Been? Where Are We Going? written by a group of seven women. Here's how the authors of Women: Where Have We Been? Where Are We Going? introduce themselves in the book:

"We are a group of women who got together through literacy to talk about being women. In this book we share our stories with you. Welcome to our lives. Enter if you dare. Share our struggles, our pain, our sorrows, our dreams, our goals and our work as a group. These stories are based on our courage. We have learned to open up more to give us courage and confidence in ourselves and to speak our voice."

The authors are Shirley Almack, Monique Beaulieu, Gerty Burnelle, Lucy Carere, Bonnie Ford, Joanne Harrison and Rosemary Meadus. I wish to close with a piece written by Bonnie Ford called A Person:

I feel like a rose not in bloom

I want to feel like a person

Like the rose out in bloom

I want to walk down that aisle

and get myself a diploma some day

People like me they feel empty inside

cause they can't get what they want

This is why I feel like the bud

I want to feel like the rose out in bloom.

Publishing these books was a first for Action Read, but Joan Rentoul and Anne Moore, program coordinators for Action Read, say they've always encouraged people to write down their own stories. They do this because it's important to provide a place where learners are listened to because so often they weren't listened to in their lives. I hope today that we've all heard them.

ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY

Mr Carman McClelland (Brampton North): I want to make comment today in the few moments we have allotted here, to reflect on some of the concerns we have on the environmental initiatives of this government. The 1992 Ontario budget was certainly a big disappointment to Ontarians concerned about the quality of the natural environment. In fact, many believe the government is performing a green dance backwards, which is intended to fool the Ontario public into believing that many of the tax increases included in that budget are intended to serve environmental purposes.

This is nothing but a corporate greenwash. For example, the expansion of the environmental levy on non-refillable beverage alcohol containers has been expanded and increased and it's expected to generate $85 million. At the same time the NDP taxes the environment, it guts the budget of the Ministry of the Environment by nearly $61 million. There has been no assurance given by the government that the expected revenues generated from the beer can tax will go into environmental programs. The public is concerned about that.

Let me talk about something else in the brief moments we have left, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): There are quite a number of private conversations. We're at a stage in the proceedings for statements by members. It would certainly be appreciated if private conversations could be held outside the chamber.

The House has come to order. I would ask the Clerk to reset the clock at one minute and 30 seconds. The member may begin his statement over again.

Mr McClelland: I was commenting about the budget and the implications that has in terms of the environment, and the fact that notwithstanding the government has brought forward so-called environmental taxes, at the same time it's cutting back on many fronts. Questions have been raised in this House by myself and my colleagues about what this government is doing in terms of the environmental initiatives it so loudly and vigorously espoused during the campaign of 1990 and certainly before that.

I noted in my comments just a moment ago that notwithstanding the fact that considerable funds have been generated under the guise of environmental taxes, the Ministry of the Environment's budget has in fact been cut; programs have been cut. We talked about that on a number of fronts.

Let me talk also, if I could, momentarily about the participation of the public. There's no question the environmentally conscious and sincere people of Ontario are sceptical about this government, not only in terms of the 1992 budget, but also in terms of the participatory process. I think back to Bill 143 and the fact that this government wanted to ram it through. They're going to be announcing very shortly a number of sites, 53, in and around the Toronto area. The fact of the matter is the government wanted to do that without any real public consultation or input.

A few moments ago, I attended a press conference co-sponsored by the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Health on a very significant and important issue, the provincial strategy for biomedical waste release. I'm certain my friend the member for Halton Centre will have much to say about that. The fact of the matter is the government has decided to give the public of Ontario 60 days, and only 60 days, to participate in this very important issue that has serious implications for people across this province. This government is not committed financially, and is certainly not committed in terms of public participation, to issues of the environment that are of great concern.

FIRE IN NORTH YORK

Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): Last night a building in my riding of York Mills burned, severely injuring the fire captain and sending four others for smoke inhalation treatment. At last report, Captain Andy Deslauriers, a 25-year veteran of the fire department, was listed in critical condition. I know members of this House will join in praying for the captain.

I also extend congratulations to his fellow firefighters for their bravery in this dramatic rescue effort. They risked their own lives to save their comrade. Firefighters are a special breed. It takes an exceptional kind of courage to enter a burning building, to face an out-of-control fire, to work every day knowing you may need to put your life on the line.

This building was 30 years old. The Ontario Building Code requires sprinklers only for new large office buildings. The legislation requires retrofitting of older public assembly buildings and institutions, but not office buildings. Sprinklers mean a safer environment for everyone. More sprinklers mean fewer injuries, less fire damage and fewer deaths.

Let us learn from this tragedy and use it as momentum to change our regulations to make buildings safer for workers and less dangerous for our firemen. Maybe then we won't need to be back here in future years paying tribute to injured firefighters.

AL HERRINGTON

Mr Kimble Sutherland (Oxford): I rise today to give recognition to the many dedicated teachers across this province who make that extra effort to help students become better individuals, and to those teachers who will be retiring this year. I would particularly like to pay special tribute to one outstanding educator, Dr Al Herrington, vice-principal of H. B. Beal Secondary School in London.

Dr Herrington has been involved in education in London for 30 years. Throughout that time he has been active not only as a teacher and administrator, but as a swimming coach, driver's education teacher and staff adviser to students' council.

However, Dr Herrington's contributions are not confined just to the city of London. In 1979 he was appointed by the Ontario Secondary School Headmasters' Council to be an adviser to the Ontario Secondary School Students' Association, more commonly known as OSSSA. In the time Dr Herrington has been an adviser, the OSSSA has made great strides in its development. Among its accomplishments is the leadership training it provides for more than 1,500 students a year at 12 regional conferences. The OSSSA also organized a student Parliament here in the Legislature during Ontario's 1984 bicentennial celebration.

He has also fostered national and international relationships in having London host the third Canadian National Student Leadership Conference in 1987.

There are many young leaders in our communities today who have benefited from the work of the OSSSA, as well as from Dr Herrington's belief in and support of their abilities.

On behalf of those student leaders who have enjoyed the benefit of Dr Herrington's participation in student leadership, I say thank you to someone who has made a wonderful contribution to our education system.

USE OF QUESTION PERIOD

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): On May 14 last, the members for Mississauga West (Mr Mahoney), York Centre (Mr Sorbara), Parry Sound (Mr Eves), Mississauga North (Mr Offer) and Brampton South (Mr Callahan) raised a point of order that ministers had been using responses to questions asked by government members during question period in order to make statements on government policy to the House.

I have taken the time to review Hansard carefully, and although I agree with the honourable members that statements by ministers should be made to the House in that period of our routine proceedings that is reserved for such, it is sometimes very difficult for the Speaker to become the adjudicator of what is or is not a change in government policy.

It might be of interest to members at this point to go back in history a few years in order to put things in context. Before 1970, in this House, oral questions were permitted only after the Speaker had a chance to vet them when they had been presented in writing beforehand. I would like to quote Speaker Cass on March 31, 1969:

"As has been explained on many occasions in the House, the only questions contemplated by our rules are the written questions which appear on the notice paper. The putting of oral questions before the orders of the day on private notice is a practice of long standing which has the authority of precedent and approval by the House, and the procedure on such questions has also been well established by practice and precedent.

When Mr Speaker or the minister to whom the question is directed is of the opinion that the question is not a proper one to be answered orally before the orders of the day, the Speaker or the minister, as the case may be, may require that the question be placed by the Clerk on the notice paper as a written question."

Members will appreciate that our rules have changed since 1970 and one of the effects of these many changes is that the Speaker must now give more latitude to members in the subject matter of their questions for the very simple reason that he has no occasion to vet these questions in advance.

I must say that this applies to both sides of the House, and therefore I can only repeat that while I try to be vigilant, I cannot apply standards of questioning to the government members that I do not apply to opposition members, and therefore, the rule is that ministers should make statements on public policy to the House when that is possible; they should reserve those statements for that part of our routine proceedings that calls for statements by ministers and they should not try to insert statements on new government policy when giving answers to government members.

However, I must caution that these are expressions of what should take place, but I repeat, it remains very difficult for the Speaker to make final and arbitrary decisions on every answer that is made because it is not the style of oral question period as we know it today.

These are restrictions that were easily enforced by the Speaker before 1970, when he was required to read questions presented to him in writing before allowing them to be asked orally in the House. I am certain I can count on the comprehension and goodwill of members who will understand that it is impossible for a Speaker in today's complex world, which is influenced to a great degree by public policy, to determine instantly, upon hearing it for the first time in the House, what constitutes or does not constitute new government policy or a departure from what was previous government policy.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

RETAIL STORE HOURS / HEURES D'OUVERTURE DES COMMERCES DE DÉTAIL

Hon Bob Rae (Premier and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I have a statement to make about Sunday shopping.

The cabinet has decided to recommend to the House that we pass legislation to permit retail stores to open for business on Sundays.

This has not been an easy decision. As this House well knows, I have often stood in my place on both sides of the House to argue in defence of a common pause day on Sunday and restricted access to Sunday store openings.

Experience, which is always a good teacher, and a change in public attitudes in recent years have combined to persuade me that such legislation, however well intended, is extremely difficult to enforce fairly and runs up against a growing sense that many people want to shop on Sunday and are increasingly impatient of rules and regulations that prevent them from doing so.

I am not convinced that Sunday shopping on its own will lead to a dramatic increase in jobs or single-handedly stop cross-border shopping. But it is clear that we cannot put a wall up around Ontario and that changing social patterns here and in neighbouring jurisdictions are having a clear impact on the choices and attitudes of Ontarians.

I want to make it clear that the vote on the legislation, while it has the full support of the cabinet, will be a free vote in the Legislature for my own caucus, of course.

The legislation will protect store owners from having to open on Sundays if they choose not to, and of course workers are already clearly protected in law from having to work in retail stores on Sundays.

A special committee is being set up and will begin very soon to monitor the impact of this legislation and make recommendations to the cabinet on what further steps we can take to protect the interests of workers in the retail industry and store owners who may be adversely affected by this decision. I expect them to report to the Minister of Labour in six months. A chairperson and the membership of this committee will be announced shortly.

I am expecting the retail industry to do everything it can to respect the wishes of its workers who do not choose to work on Sunday and to take the positive steps to ensure the maximum employment gains it has been assuring us will flow from this decision.

I am keenly aware that while there are no doubt those who will be pleased with this decision, there are others who will be disappointed by it. It will come as no secret that there have been active discussions about this issue in my own party and that many have urged me and the government not to take this decision. To them I can only say that this government, like all governments, has to govern with the public interest in mind and that public policy in this area has to respond to a changing public attitude. The current law is, I am now convinced, unsustainable in the longer term, and to make it more restrictive would be to fly in the face of public opinion.

I think I have the time to read it in the other official language, Mr Speaker, if I could.

J'ai une déclaration à faire au sujet du magasinage le dimanche.

Le Conseil des ministres a pris la décision de recommander à l'Assemblée que nous fassions adopter une loi qui permettrait aux magasins de détail d'ouvrir leurs portes le dimanche.

Cette décision n'a pas été facile. Comme le savent les députés de l'Assemblée, j'ai souvent défendu, des deux côtés de la Chambre, la journée de pause commune le dimanche et l'accès restreint aux magasins le dimanche.

L'expérience, combinée au changement d'attitude de la part du public depuis les dernières années, m'a convaincu qu'une telle loi, bien que fondée sur de bonnes intentions, est très difficile à implanter de façon juste et se heurte au désir grandissant de plusieurs personnes de magasiner le dimanche et à leur intolérance à l'égard de la législation qui les empêche de le faire.

Je ne suis pas convaincu que le magasinage le dimanche créera un nombre important d'emplois additionnels, ni qu'il empêchera à lui seul le magasinage transfrontalier. Mais il est clair que nous ne pouvons encercler l'Ontario d'un mur et que les modèles sociaux changeants d'ici et des territoires avoisinants ont un net impact sur les choix et les attitudes des Ontariens et Ontariennes.

Je voudrais préciser que le vote de cette loi, bien qu'il ait l'appui du Conseil des ministres, sera un vote libre à l'Assemblée. Cette loi protégera les propriétaires de magasins de détail qui choisiront de ne pas ouvrir leur commerce le dimanche et, évidemment, les travailleurs qui sont déjà clairement protégés par la loi pour ne pas être obligés de travailler dans les commerces le dimanche.

Un comité spécial sera mis en place et commencera sous peu à surveiller les répercussions de la législation. Il fera des recommandations au Conseil des ministres au sujet des étapes supplémentaires que nous pouvons prendre afin de protéger les intérêts des travailleurs de l'industrie du commerce de détail et les propriétaires de magasins qui pourraient être défavorisés par cette décision. Le comité, dont le président sera nommé sous peu, devrait présenter un rapport au ministre du Travail dans six mois.

Je demande aussi aux gens du secteur de l'industrie du commerce de détail de faire tout en leur pouvoir afin de respecter les désirs de leurs travailleurs qui choisissent de ne pas travailler le dimanche et de prendre des mesures positives afin d'assurer des gains d'emploi maximums.

Je suis conscient que, même si certains seront ravis de cette décision, d'autres en seront déçus. Cela n'a rien de secret si je vous dis qu'il y a eu de vives discussions au sein de mon parti et que plusieurs m'ont conseillé vivement, ainsi qu'au gouvernement, de ne pas prendre cette décision. Tout ce que je peux leur dire c'est que ce gouvernement, comme tous les gouvernements, doit gouverner avec l'intérêt du public en tête et que la politique publique dans ce domaine doit répondre à une opinion publique changeante. Je suis maintenant convaincu que la loi actuelle serait inadéquate à long terme et qu'en la rendant encore plus restrictive, nous irions à l'encontre de l'opinion publique.

Merci, Monsieur le Président.

Hon Allan Pilkey (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): This afternoon I will be introducing amendments to the Retail Business Holidays Act. These amendments will eliminate Sundays from the current definition of "holiday," making it possible for stores to open on Sundays with the exception of Easter Sunday, which is preserved as a holiday on which stores must close. Thus the

section of the current legislation which permits stores to open on Sundays in December prior to Christmas will also be repealed.

These amendments will also be providing retailers who hold commercial leases the right to remain closed if they so wish, regardless of the terms of their leases. When the bill is passed, these measures will come into effect retroactive to today. I have also asked officials of my ministry to inform police services across the province of the introduction of these amendments.

RESPONSES

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): It's about time. We can only hope that the statements made by the Premier and the Solicitor General today will finally bring an end to this issue and finally bring an end to what we can only describe as a circus of mismanagement and indecision by this government on this matter. Today we can only ask, "Why did it take so long?"

This government has dithered while Ontario retailers lost millions of dollars. The government has dithered while conscientious individuals struggled with the decision as to whether they would flout the law by opening their stores or risk having to close their stores altogether. The government has dithered while individuals desperately took out ads imploring this government to make a decision that would at least give them an equal playing field.

The government has dithered while municipalities across this province have spent countless hours and hundreds of dollars trying to draft bylaws that would make this impossible legislation work for them in some way, only to have it appealed by the Ontario Municipal Board.

I wonder if the lesson is this: that the Premier and his government have learned it is important to listen to public opinion, to listen to all of the people before taking action so that they will understand where the public view is. In 21 years in politics I have never seen an issue on which the expression of public need and public will has been clearer than on this issue. By the time this government brought in its legislation the public demand had become literally a hue and cry.

The government knew what the public will was. They also knew this was bad legislation. It was unworkable and unenforceable. Their own ministries told them this was not enforceable legislation, that it was not, to use the Premier's term, sustainable. Yet they were determined to go ahead. They marched ahead. They did, even then, fly in the face of public opinion. Now four months later they are finally back to where they should have started.

At least we think they're back to where they should have started. We wonder whether the Premier's decision to call for a free vote on this particular issue at this particular moment is not simply a continued abdication of the responsibility for leadership on the part of the Premier. We wonder whether on this very difficult issue for his caucus and his party the Premier indeed has the support of a majority of the members of his government to bring in its own proposals or whether the Premier is counting on the votes of the opposition to do what he very well knows is needed.

I ask the Premier whether he will be here when this vote is taken to demonstrate that there is solid support from his cabinet for these measures, whether he himself will vote in favour of his own proposals, whether he will be here to stand with his caucus, because the Premier owes it to the people of this province to clearly take his stand and cast his vote at the end of this very long and difficult debate.

We welcome this legislation. We are concerned about the further steps the government says it is going to introduce. We will want to look at the impact those further steps will have. We will want to see if the government in fact supports its own proposals. But at the end of the day we look forward to simply getting on with it.

Mr Remo Mancini (Essex South): Recently the very humble and modest Minister of Culture and Communications gave herself an A-plus on the work that she has been doing in her ministry. I would like to give the Ontario NDP socialist government an F for failure on its lack of leadership on this whole matter of Sunday shopping.

Hundreds of retail stores have closed and thousands of retail workers have lost their jobs while the NDP has fiddled and placed ideology ahead of the needs of Ontario's retail business and retail workers. We have seen the government abdicate all responsibility for the leadership it won some 18 months ago.

I firmly believe that the only reason we're going to have Sunday shopping in Ontario is not because the NDP is concerned about retail workers or the retail stores. It's because they don't want to be put in the embarrassing position of having casinos open on Sunday while retail stores are closed on Sunday. That is the only reason why we're going to have Sunday shopping -- not because they want to stem the tide of cross-border shopping, not because they've had a change of heart, not for any positive reason whatsoever. They deserve an F for the lack of leadership we've gotten on this whole issue.

Mr Ernie L. Eves (Parry Sound): I'd like the opportunity, just briefly, to respond to the Premier's statement and that of the Solicitor General today.

First of all, I note with some amusement the position taken by the Leader of the Opposition, who now says that it's about time this law was introduced, when it was only a short time ago, about a week or two, when her party's position during question period was, "Bring back the municipal option; bring back the good old David Peterson law."

The Premier is waiting for the other shoe to drop, I'm sure.

I also note with some amusement that the Premier says that it has the full support of cabinet and that there will be a free vote in the Legislature. That's sort of talking out of both sides of your mouth. I don't think -- I'm sure the Premier will correct me if I'm wrong -- that it has the full, 100% support of his own cabinet. I notice the absence of hysteria and glee over there, specifically from six cabinet ministers, some of whom sit in very close proximity to the Premier of the province, so I don't think it has their full support. We can only wait to see if indeed it is a free vote in the Legislature by your members and cabinet, Mr Premier.

I want to say this to the Solicitor General: While we respect the legislation you've introduced today, Mr Solicitor General, I do note that you were totally silent on the issue of outstanding cases and prosecutions before the courts today. I'm sure that it was a just an oversight on his part and that he'll be having more to say about equity and fairness in the judicial system in the not-too-distant future.

Mr Gary Carr (Oakville South): This band of incompetent, bungling fools who represent the Ontario government can't even make a reversible decision without confusion and chaos.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): The member for Yorkview, come to order.

Mr Carr: The government has dithered while the Liberals tried to fob it off on municipalities. Our leader, on October 31, in New Directions said this about your legislation: "Both the existing Liberal legislation and the proposed NDP laws are unfair, unworkable and bad for the economic wellbeing of the province." That's what the people said last summer during the hearings when we went from Ottawa to Thunder Bay. They said it's unfair, unworkable and bad for the province.

One year later we turn around and get some type of results from this Premier, and let's face it, the only reason he reversed himself was because of the court challenge that was going to come, because of the fact retailers said, "We're going to open anyway, notwithstanding your crazy law," and finally because the polls said that's what we should do. In New Directions we stated it last year. A year later you finally turn around and do it.

What happened to all the outstanding charges? What's going to happen to all those people who have gone through chaos for virtually a year? During this period of time this government's dithering has been, "Yes, there'll be Sunday shopping; no, there won't be Sunday shopping; maybe there'll be Sunday shopping; yes, there will be; no, there won't."

Now we're into a free vote situation. A free vote means everybody, Mr Premier, not just the cabinet. A free vote means everybody, and for a group that is used to having free lunches, you should know that a free vote means everybody in this Legislature.

We're also going to be interested to see what type of muzzling goes on for the members, such as the member for Welland-Thorold, and whether in fact they are going to be able to express their vote freely in this Legislature.

This piece of legislation was condemned by both sides on the issue in the hearings held in the summer. The people in favour of Sunday shopping didn't like it; the people opposed to Sunday shopping didn't like it. You attempted to please everybody, in the tradition that you continued since you were elected September 6, 1990, and you cannot continue to please everyone. This decision here today to allow the members to make a free vote is a first step, but unfortunately you're a year too late and unfortunately a lot of the retailers out there are going to suffer because you don't have the political courage to make tough decisions.

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): Let me just read quickly into the record from August 19, 1990, An Agenda For People:

"Men and women across Ontario told me that they don't want promises that can't be kept, and they don't trust parties that pretend to serve every need and satisfy every demand."

Mr Premier, your Xerox machine should work overtime. You owe every person in this province who voted for you a letter of apology. There are people out there who believed what you said. You have capitulated. You've hung them out to dry. You and your government should be ashamed of yourselves.

MINISTERIAL COURTESY

Mr Steven Offer (Mississauga North): On a point of personal privilege, Mr Speaker: I believe my privileges as a member have been breached or in fact prejudiced.

I understand from a number of sources that the Minister of Labour is going to be making a statement tomorrow dealing with the Labour Relations Act. I further understand that a series of briefings is being conducted by the Ministry of Labour for a number of interested groups across this province, commencing this evening and to be continued tomorrow morning. As a member of this Legislature and as the Labour critic for our party, I and, I understand, the Labour critic for the Conservative Party have not been invited to these particular briefings.

There is going to be a variety of individuals across this province who are going to be aware of the statement pending by the Minister of Labour before any member of this Legislature and in fact before any critic of either of the opposition parties.

Mr Speaker, I believe that to be a valid point of privilege of which my privileges as not only the Labour critic but of all the members --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Could the member take his seat. While indeed I appreciate the matter of interest which the member brings before me and it is a matter which he may wish to discuss with the Minister of Labour, first of all, with respect to any statement to be made in the House I cannot deal with hypothetical situations. Second, the other matter to which he refers is something that is outside of the chamber and outside of our standing orders. Unfortunately, there is not a privilege which the member has lost.

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I believe we have agreement for unanimous consent to speak to the death of a former member of this place.

The Speaker: Agreed.

STANLEY WILLIAM FARQUHAR

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): Mr Speaker, I regret to inform the House of the passing of Stanley William Farquhar on Saturday, May 30, at his home on Vancouver Island, British Columbia.

Mr Farquhar was elected to this Legislature in 1963, re-elected in 1967 and he chose not to run in the election of 1971. Mr Farquhar was a dairyman by profession. He was the secretary-treasurer and general manager of Thomas Farquhar and Sons, which continues to this day as a major supplier of dairy products and ice cream in our part of Ontario.

Mr Farquhar had a long history of service to his community. He was, for example, the president of the Little Current Lions Club and the Elliot Lake Kiwanis Club. In the local political field, he served his community as school board trustee, as a member of council and as mayor of the town of Little Current.

During his years representing these communities in this place he was involved in a number of significant community projects. I would cite, for example, the building of the hospital at Little Current, the construction of the Manitoulin Centennial Manor and the completion of what is now Highway 6 from Espanola to Little Current. He will be remembered for his involvement with the establishment of the Sault College campus at Elliot Lake, the various projects at the E. B. Eddy mill and the establishment of the Manitoulin Board of Education.

But perhaps Mr Farquhar will be best remembered as a congenial, tireless worker for the people of Algoma-Manitoulin. I'm told that it was not uncommon for Mr Farquhar to work diligently and long to find assistance for a constituent in need. Those were in the times when we did not have the resources we have today and the social network and safety net was not what it is today.

The dedication to community service by Mr Farquhar was natural. He was the son of Senator Thomas Farquhar, who at various points in his lifetime was the mayor of Sault Ste Marie, the reeve of Carnarvon township, the MPP for Algoma-Manitoulin and the MP for Algoma East. The family continues these fine traditions of community service.

Stan was first elected to this Legislature when Lester B. Pearson was the MP for Algoma East and the Prime Minister of Canada. Their accomplishments and the close personal relationship between Stan and Mr Pearson remain strong memories in the hearts of the people of Algoma-Manitoulin.

I wish to extend the sympathies and condolences of the people of Algoma-Manitoulin and the Liberal caucus to his wife, Maisie, his children Thomas, Frances, Karen and Wendell, his sister, Mrs Ruth Ashley, and his brothers Thomas, John and Allen. The memorial service will take place at Little Current United Church Friday at 2 pm.

Again, on behalf of myself and the federal member, Dr Maurice Foster, I extend sympathies to the family.

Mr W. Donald Cousens (Markham): On behalf of our leader Mike Harris, the member for Nipissing, and the PC caucus, we stand and pause in reflection and pleasant memories of a person who served his riding and this province in a wonderful way during his terms of office.

When we look at the number of people who have served the province of Ontario whose names are engraved in the ivory downstairs, there is a sense there of the many men and women who have given so generously of themselves to make this a better place to live.

Stanley came to this place with the experience of someone who had served in local government and he brought the wisdom and experience of having been at the local level. He served in the service clubs of his community, so he knew something of what it was his community needed. He brought business experience from his agricultural background in his own family business, which made him one well positioned in a significant way to make this a better province.

In joining with the member for Algoma-Manitoulin and the family and friends of Stanley Farquhar, our caucus bows in reflection of one who did make a difference. It just goes to show that all party differences somehow disappear when we look at what we're here to do, that is, to serve the people of Ontario. Stan Farquhar was certainly one of those, and our caucus sends to his family and all who knew him our sincere sympathy at his passing.

Hon Bud Wildman (Minister of Natural Resources and Minister Responsible for Native Affairs): On behalf of the government I want to join all members in expressing our sincere condolences to Mrs Farquhar and the family. Stan Farquhar served with distinction in this House and, as my friend the member for Algoma-Manitoulin indicated, with great congeniality. When I first ran for election in 1975 to this place in the neighbouring riding of Algoma, the name Stan Farquhar was well known to my constituents as a person who not only served his own constituents of Algoma-Manitoulin, but was always there to assist the whole of the north shore.

Obviously the Farquhar family has been well known through the north shore and in Sault Ste Marie and Manitoulin as a family that served the public and served the interests of the people of the north with distinction. Stan of course was born in Sault Ste Marie where his father had served as the mayor, and his father went on to serve with distinction in the federal House and as a senator. Stan is still well known. The family is well known through the dairy business and just recently joined with the dairymen of Algoma district to attempt to ensure that there will be continuing local dairy service to the people of Sault Ste Marie. So the family continues to serve the whole area.

We all are the better for having known or experienced the service of Stan Farquhar. We know it is a sad time for the family, but it's also a time when they can reflect on the tremendous service and the pride they have in the example Stan Farquhar showed all of us on the north shore and on Manitoulin Island.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): The kind and thoughtful comments by the members from Algoma-Manitoulin, Markham and Algoma will be forwarded to the family of Mr Farquhar.

ORAL QUESTIONS

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Premier, as we turn from today's issue to tomorrow's issue. We understand that tomorrow the Premier and his government will be bringing in their labour legislation. The Premier is only too well aware that right now this province is in the midst of the worst recession since the 1930s. We're seeing plant closings across this province at the rate of one every three days, 553,000 people in Ontario are unemployed, the highest level since 1983, and yet the NDP government still insists on forging ahead with its proposals to bring in changes to the Labour Relations Act.

I ask the Premier, how many jobs will his proposed changes to the Ontario Labour Relations Act create? Will they put one single person back to work?

Hon Bob Rae (Premier and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I think one has to look at the government's program in its entirety and say that what this government has done with respect to job creation, both directly in terms of what we put into the economy and in terms of the more competitive tax environment which we've tried to create even as our deficit is as difficult as it is, has done a great deal to encourage more investment and to see that more investment takes place.

If the honourable member is arguing that an atmosphere in the workplace which is one of tolerance and respect and in which workers' rights to organize are taken seriously is one that is not conducive to the creation of jobs in this province, I would only say to her very directly I disagree profoundly, we in this party disagree with her profoundly and we believe that the direction we're taking with respect to creating a more positive partnership between labour and management is the direction in which we have to go as a province, in which we want to go as a province and which we encourage all the partners in the labour force, business, labour, everyone in the community, to be involved in creating.

Mrs McLeod: The Premier is absolutely right. We are concerned about jobs, we believe this is an issue about jobs and we believe the workers of this province are concerned about jobs.

We know, at least we believe we know, the government is aware of the studies that have been prepared which suggest that, far from being conducive to job creation, the changes proposed to the Labour Relations Act will actually result in the loss of perhaps as many as 260,000 more jobs in Ontario. We know the government has said it doesn't believe these statistics, but it refuses to table its own impact studies showing how many jobs the government expects to be lost.

In our opinion, this seems to suggest either that the government has no idea how many jobs are going to be lost or that it's determined to go ahead with the initiative regardless of how many jobs may be lost. Obviously, while we care about jobs, this government doesn't seem to. We would ask the Premier to explain again to the people of Ontario why he would press ahead with this legislation without seeming to have any concern about the job loss this is going to cause.

Hon Mr Rae: The Leader of the Opposition, who goes on radio -- I hear her from time to time promising what a different kind of leader she's going to be -- first of all just simply spouts the various numbers that are thrown up by the various lobbies out there that are out to defeat the legislation. What do you think they would have said with respect to the environmental laws the Liberal Party passed which you were so strongly in favour of? What do you think they would have said about any of the legislation your government introduced several years ago?

I would say very directly to the honourable member that what we are doing is attempting, through the Premier's Council, through the investment policies of this government and through the capital investment policies of this government, to say to people that to argue that you have to choose between fairness and employment is a false choice, that it's an unfair choice and that it's not a 20th-century choice for the people of this province. We think you can have jobs and justice, and that's the direction of this government.

Mrs McLeod: When there's no answer to the question, you lose the question in the rhetoric. This is an issue about today. It's an issue about your laws. It's an issue about 557,000 people in the province who are already out of work and our concern that these proposals coming in at this time in this way will put even more people out of work and in the unemployment lines.

It seems quite clear that the Labour Relations Act amendments are not going to create any new jobs. We believe, without any contradictory evidence from the government to refute it, that these amendments could lead to significant job losses. But beyond that, we're concerned that this legislation could produce a virtual paralysis both in our economy and in our ability to provide needed services.

We hear school boards say they're afraid that one striking union with only a couple of workers could force them to close classrooms. We hear utilities worrying that they won't be able to supply power to consumers during a labour disruption. We hear children's aid societies fear that they won't be able to protect children if there's a strike. I see the Premier shaking his head. These are the concerns people are sharing with us. Surely the government, even in its stage-managed consultation on these amendments, has heard the same concerns.

I would ask the Premier, is he not hearing these concerns and is he not going to respond to the concerns he has been hearing about the proposed changes in his legislation? Will he make changes to the proposals they've been talking about?

Hon Mr Rae: Yesterday the Leader of the Opposition asked questions with respect to our decision today, again casting fear, doubt and misinformation based on whatever press speculation and going out and seriously talking to the press as if this were public policy. Today she is doing exactly the same thing, and I thought this was going to be a Liberal with a difference. This isn't a Liberal with a difference; this is just a Liberal and that's what we see.

Let me contrast the comments of this Leader of the Opposition with the Liberal leader, Sir Oliver Mowat, campaigning 102 years ago in the election of 1890. This is what Sir Oliver Mowat had to say with respect to labour relations 102 years ago, at the end of the 19th century. Sir Oliver said:

"In a right state of society there ought to be no antagonism between the various classes of which the community is composed. I am glad to believe that there is little antagonism between the different classes in this glorious province. But if there is antagonism, my sympathy and that of my colleagues is with the masses rather than with the classes."

We have a Liberal Party of the classes. That's the Liberal Party that's taken over, not the one people knew 102 years ago.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. New question.

Mrs McLeod: Mr Speaker, shall I proceed?

The Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition with a new question.

Mrs McLeod: I would say to the Premier that the questions we raised yesterday were about those further steps which he has only alluded to in his statement and which we wait to see, and it is not the Liberal Party that has polarized labour and management in this province over the past 12 months.

SKILLS TRAINING

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): Let me turn to a second question, which I hope the Premier may find answerable. The Premier may be aware that

section 26 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, which he will of course recognize is a federal act, allowed individuals to extend their unemployment insurance benefits while they were enrolled in training that was 52 weeks or less in duration. The federal government has suddenly capped this.

At a time when we are hearing of plant closures on a daily basis, clearly the need for this type of training is critical. Currently the option is not being provided by the provincial government for this kind of training. I would ask the Premier whether his government is prepared to step into the vacuum which now exists in training programs.

Hon Bob Rae (Premier and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I can tell the honourable member this, and I can tell her as directly as I can: First of all, we deplore the actions of the federal government with respect to capping. That's not the only thing it is doing. It is also cutting its transfers to this province with respect to skills training to the tune of tens of millions of dollars both with respect to this year and with respect to the next fiscal year.

We have made this a point of discussion and a point of contention even within the constitutional discussions, and it's one of the reasons why Ontario is seeking greater control over labour market initiatives and why we are looking very hard at how we do this. I can tell the honourable member that of course Ontario is going to be looking at all of our labour market initiatives to make sure they are as effective as they can be.

Concerning the particular question with respect to

section 26, I know the minister will want to look at it and at the impact it's going to have on the province. I can tell the member that the impact of other federal cuts has been serious, but I should also tell her that it isn't simply a matter of our filling in where the federal government has cut; it's a matter of our saying very clearly and emphatically to the federal government: "We are having to take up far more of the slack.

We are having to do far more of this, and we're going to be insisting on a fairer division of the fiscal pie in order to allow us to do it." Ontario is not going to sit back and accept the kinds of cuts which have taken place in the Canada assistance plan, in the established programs financing, and now in areas in which we had thought there was a clear federal agreement with us to continue an increased level of funding with respect to skills training.

Mrs McLeod: I raised the question as a very real concern that we are probably all hearing from constituents, knowing that the Premier would respond in terms of the federal government cutbacks, and that's quite appropriate in response to my first question.

But I want to impress upon the Premier the immediacy of this situation in real human terms, the immediacy and the urgency of this situation for the hundreds and hundreds of people who are out of work because of Ontario plants having closed and who were hoping to be able to go and take a training program so that they could get a new start. We are hearing from literally thousands of constituents who have lost their jobs, who had already made arrangements to take those training programs and who have now been told they can't pursue those options which they saw as being the only hope for their future.

I would ask if the Premier could tell us how his government, recognizing the vacuum, recognizing a concern for these individuals, will respond to the individuals who find they cannot access training programs under the unemployment insurance program or any other program. Where can he tell these people to go?

Mr Hugh P. O'Neil (Quinte): The problem is immediate.

Hon Mr Rae: The problem is immediate, as the member from Belleville quite rightly points out, and the problem is very real. I know the leader will simply say, "Well, tell me exactly what you're going to do and when you're going to do it." We have already indicated with respect to the training fund that we're putting more money into the training fund and creating more opportunities with the training fund than any government has done. We're willing to take the criticism that we have taken for cutting in some other areas, because we've had to cut in some other areas.

We've had to reduce funding in some other areas, and some of the long faces you see on cabinet ministers occasionally reflect those decisions. We have done that in order to put more money into the skills development field and the training field, but I want to say to the honourable member that there also is --

Mr Robert Chiarelli (Ottawa West): The budget hasn't created one job yet, Bob, not one job. Nobody is getting a paycheque from your budget.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order, the member for Ottawa West.

Hon Mr Rae: The member for Ottawa West has moved down to occupy the front bench and I congratulate him for his promotion. We've had no difficulty hearing the honourable member wherever he's been shouting from, I can assure him, but we'll say to the honourable member that we are putting more money into the --

Mr Chiarelli: The budget hasn't created one job.

The Speaker: The member for Ottawa West, come to order.

Hon Mr Rae: -- training fund than ever before. We're putting it in now. In fact, we were discussing at cabinet even today how we can increase and accelerate the funds already in place with respect to the initiatives that need to be taken.

But I will say to her, and I hope she will at least agree with me in this area, that if she truly wants to be non-partisan in this area, I hope she would agree with me that there is an obligation on the part of the federal government to pay its fair share for programs which have traditionally been part of the federal arena and which now require us to move in because they've cut back. We're not getting the tax points and we're not getting the transfers --

The Speaker: Will the Premier conclude his response, please.

Hon Mr Rae: -- and I hope I'll get the support of the Leader of the Opposition in that regard because it's a very important battle on behalf of all the citizens of the province.

Mrs McLeod: I'm sorry to tell the Premier that this isn't an issue on which I feel non-partisan; it's an issue on which I wish both the provincial and federal governments would stop simply shooting the ball into each other's court while nobody accepts responsibility for the individuals out there looking either for work or training opportunities.

The Treasurer has referenced the fact that they have a jobs training fund. He will surely know that the training fund is really a job placement program and is of absolutely no use to these individuals whatsoever. He's also mentioned the budget cutbacks which his government hopes are going to support training and other programs and that raises my final supplementary.

I earlier asked the Treasurer how he was going to transfer social assistance recipients to unemployment insurance, which is a measure in his budget intended to save, I believe, some $330 million. The Treasurer's response was that unemployment insurance recipients are entitled to a certain amount of job retraining as a part of unemployment insurance. Clearly he planned to save this money by transferring people to unemployment insurance so they could indeed benefit from the training. This option has now been taken away. People will not be able to move from social assistance to unemployment insurance to receive training and in fact many more people will be moving to social assistance sooner.

In light of these events, I ask the Premier to tell us whether the savings anticipated in the budget will still be able to be met or whether we are now facing not only a crisis in training but a $330 million shortfall in his budget.

Hon Mr Rae: I can only say to the honourable member that we are managing our expenditures and if her party had stayed on in government post-1990 -- if either the Premier at that time hadn't called an election or, alternatively, the election had gone another way -- the Liberal Party would be facing exactly the same fiscal crisis facing this government. She knows it, I know it, everybody in this House knows it. We have to manage the expenditures as best we can and that is what we intend to do. If the leader is asking if we intend to let the federal government off the hook with respect to its obligations under unemployment insurance, the answer is no.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Waterloo North): Premier, you mentioned today the need for fairness and justice in the area of labour relations, and as the Conservative critic for Labour I have been very concerned about the impact of the labour law reform on individual rights and freedoms. The proposals and the purpose clause are intended to facilitate the widespread unionization of Ontario workers and give more power to unions. This alters the current balance in legislation which also protects the employee who wants to remain non-unionized.

It appears there will be absolutely no protection for employees who, for many reasons, are opposed to being unionized. Indeed, there is widespread concern throughout the province about the loss of individual rights and freedoms. Under proposed changes, workers will be forced into unions if 50% plus one sign a union card. There will be no secret ballot and no cooling-off period. What about the 49% of the workers who don't want to join a union? Will you be fair, just as you have indicated there is a need to be and will the act allow for easier decertification as well?

Hon Bob Rae (Premier and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I think the Conservative Party, which is applauding the comments by the member very vigorously -- first of all, I say to the honourable member that I think it would be wisest for us to have this conversation after she's seen the legislation which is being proposed for second reading by the government.

Second, I say to her that if this is the tack the Conservative Party is taking, generally speaking, with regard to the labour legislation in this province, what in effect she is doing is arguing against labour legislation which is already in place in this province. It's in place in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Prince Edward Island, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia.

I say to the honourable member that she'd better be careful, in terms of the tack she's taking, that she make sure she's not arguing against what is a common practice and commonly regarded as the right of a majority of people within a unit, within a place of work to choose to join a union and express themselves in that choice by signing cards.

That has been the law. That's the law which is in place in the vast majority of jurisdictions in this country and is in fact the law that was introduced by her party, of which she's now a member, when it was on this side of the House. Let's not try to rewrite all of the recent labour law history in the province of Ontario.

Mrs Witmer: I'm concerned about the individuals who have written to me and indicated that they're afraid their freedom and rights are going to be lost under this new law. I introduced Bill 152 to allow secret ballot votes for certification, ratification of contracts and strikes. This bill would restore some fairness and justice and would protect individual rights. Are you prepared to include a secret ballot vote in the legislation, for true democracy?

Hon Mr Rae: I can only say to the honourable member, and I'm sure she will appreciate this, that this is a discussion we should have when the legislation is brought down, but obviously the views she has expressed, as well as the views others have expressed, will be taken into account, and have been taken into account, in the drafting of the legislation.

Mrs Witmer: Premier, I hope the views of all people in the province have been taken into consideration and that it simply hasn't been an exercise in public relations.

There's one proposal that women in this province are particularly concerned about. There was the suggestion that the government may force employers to submit the names and addresses during a unionizing drive. As you know, this would infringe on an individual's right to privacy. At a time when society and your government recognize that women in this province are very vulnerable, will you be discarding privacy protection measures for women in favour of organizational ease?

Hon Mr Rae: The member has me at a distinct disadvantage which I'm sure she's going to take advantage of. She knows full well that if I respond to her with respect to any individual question about the legislation, other members will say: "Well, what about this?

Why are you giving out information with respect to legislation in an answer to a question in this way?" So I would only say to her, obviously, that first of all the proposal with respect to lists was not a proposal the government endorsed in the discussion paper; it was a proposal put forward for purposes of discussion, weighing the interests on both sides. I can assure the honourable member that we have weighed the interest on both sides in the proposals we'll be tabling tomorrow.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): New question, the member for Burlington South.

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington South): Perhaps the Premier could extend the courtesy to our critic and she would be able to be informed tonight by ministry staff.

DAY CARE

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington South): My question is for the Minister of Community and Social Services. Minister, last year you announced some $75 million in funds to assist the conversion of day care centres towards non-profit from the commercial sector in this province. That was met with certain fanfare from the non-profit sector and heralded as an opportunity to at least maintain the day care spaces in this province.

Since then we've had public hearings here in the Legislature, in March, at which point you indicated that the operating procedures you were following with respect to day care conversions had all been changed, that you'd changed your mind, that there was now a moratorium and so on and so forth. Now, Minister, you are in the process of public consultations. Your process has gone through three different phases, confusing the public as to what you're actually doing with day care conversions.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): And your question?

Mr Jackson: My question has to do with a woman by the name of Barbara Till who yesterday attended the consultation hearings in Barrie. She had phoned your ministry and was advised that she would be given either five or 10 minutes to participate in the discussion. At the 11th hour, your ministry advised her that she was barred from making any public commentary at these public hearings.

Madam Minister, why is it that the public's opinion, in particular that of parents, the most important stakeholders in children's day care needs in this province -- your ministry has taken a position that their opinions are not as necessarily important as the non-profit day care operators' opinions are at this time?

Hon Marion Boyd (Minister of Community and Social Services): The member has certainly taken me by surprise, because if someone had a time slot at one of the hearings and then was subsequently told there wasn't time, I certainly didn't hear about it and I'm as concerned as he is.

The purpose of the hearings is to get opinion from parents as much as it is from child care providers, from municipalities, from any interested group. I'm deeply concerned to hear that something like this has occurred and I will certainly look into it and inform the member at a later date what the ministry's explanation for that would be.

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): My question is also for the Minister of Community and Social Services. The YMCA of Orillia has indicated an interest in converting Kiddie Kapers Day Nursery School to a non-profit day care centre because it is a viable and a badly needed service. Up to 20% of all spaces in Orillia are here in this proposal. Your ministry told the YMCA, which is non-profit, that it is not eligible for the necessary funding because it's not operating within the conversion guidelines.

Minister, the question is, are the guidelines going to be in place immediately? These people, the families and the children and the staff who are at that present private day care centre, want to continue that centre as a non-profit. Can we count on your support to have that happen before June 30?

Hon Mrs Boyd: I'm quite concerned, as is the member, at the delay in the devising of the guidelines. We had agreed that we would not do ad hoc decisions until those guidelines were decided in conjunction with the private operators and with the non-profit providers. Unfortunately those two groups have had some difficulty coming to consensus on how those guidelines should operate.

The non-profit groups generally are not in favour of the conversion process because they feel it's not appropriate for us to be putting those dollars in this direction, and the for-profit operators of course are not happy with the number of dollars that are available. So we're having real problems coming to an agreement.

I share the member's concern when there is a time deadline like this, and I have told the committee that if it can't come up with firm guidelines within the next couple of weeks, we will simply have to make some of these interim decisions in order to ensure that spaces don't get lost. It will be done on the basis of the most urgent need and the level of care that's required in municipalities.

Mr Jackson: Minister, thousands of day care spaces in this province have closed and collapsed as a result of your dithering around this issue. I go back to the point that last year you announced millions of dollars for a conversion program. To date we can't find any centre where you've given any money, but we can point to hundreds of centres that have closed and been forced to close, and you've not stepped in to save those child care spaces.

If you're not going to listen to parents, if you're not going to listen to my colleague's concerns in his own area of Simcoe, I want you to listen to a concern that's been raised about your parliamentary assistant and his conduct at the May 6 meeting of your public consultation in Metro north.

It has been alleged that in a conversation he had with members of United Voices for Fair Treatment in Child Care, he was quoted as saying that if the private side, referring to them, did not stop fighting and resisting the NDP plans to make all child care non-profit, his caucus will just say to hell with it and forget about offering private operators any type of conversion package. He said the NDP has made its mind up as far as making all child care non-profit, so there is no point in fighting the decision.

Madam Minister, I consider that a serious concern --

The Speaker: And your question?

Mr Jackson: -- and I would ask you to look into it.

More important, how can you sit back idly, with 8,000 women workers waiting for you to bring in your conversion package and they're losing their jobs, 20,000 to 30,000 children who are --

The Speaker: Would the member complete his question, please.

Mr Jackson: Mr Speaker, I'm in the process of completing my question. Thank you.

Thirty thousand children depended on you to make this decision. Madam Minister, when will you bring in your package of reforms to save these day care spaces in Ontario instead of allowing a couple of thousand more to close and barring those children from the day care services they deserve?

Hon Mrs Boyd: I can only assume the member is suggesting that we not try to reach consensus with the two groups involved.

Mr Jackson: You already made the decision. Listen to your PA.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mrs Boyd: We would need to have agreement of non-profit groups to purchase the assets of for-profit groups and, equally, the willingness of for-profit groups to sell their assets. So we were attempting to come to a consensus. But I confess I'm getting quite annoyed that the two groups do not seem to have been able to come to that agreement.

I am not responsible for statements made by anyone other than myself. I have indicated to the member on a number of occasions that we are not in any way saying that only non-profit child care will exist. We are saying that any expansion of child care in this province will be in the non-profit sector but we will continue to licence for-profit centres if they comply with the standards. That continues to be the position, and I will certainly look into what the member alleges to be the comments of my parliamentary assistant.

YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): My question is to the Premier. Yesterday the Premier told the House that his newly appointed parliamentary assistant, the member for St Andrew-St Patrick, Ms Akande, would be reporting to cabinet today on the whole situation of youth unemployment in Ontario.

I would ask the Premier to report to the House on the findings of his parliamentary assistant and what action will flow from Ms Akande's work.

Hon Bob Rae (Premier and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): That is exactly what happened. I know we're not normally supposed to discuss what went on in cabinet, but I can tell the honourable member that we did hear very directly from the member for St Andrew-St Patrick. She made a very compelling report to us and a very practical one with respect to a number of programs which are in place, and some other ideas which she has.

I will be responding and we will be responding on behalf of the government very, very shortly with respect to the youth unemployment issue and with respect to the need for us to create more jobs. But I want to emphasize that it's not just the government that's going to have to be involved in this in terms of direct initiatives. There are things we can do through the government, but I'm sure the honourable member would agree with me that we as a government have to do whatever we can to encourage the private sector and others to participate in this way.

I can say to the honourable member that I see some opportunities even with respect to the Sunday openings issue, that we would look to the retail industry to be responding in an affirmative way to the needs of our young people and to be looking to this over the summer months.

Mr Conway: Now that is making virtue out of circumstance.

Hon Mr Rae: You're right. It is. That's exactly what it is. I admit it.

Mr Conway: I will restrain myself. I will restrain myself.

Interjections.

The Speaker: The member now has an opportunity to place a supplementary.

Mr Conway: The other day I was talking to a university student who will be returning in the fall to her program where government-regulated tuition and fees will be up by over 10% for the fall of 1992-93. Her costs are going to be up by over 10%. It's June 3; she has no job to date.

My question, Mr Premier, is, having regard to the responsibilities that we all have in this respect, what are we as members of the Legislature to tell students of the kind I have mentioned who are saying to us now well into the first week of June, "What can I expect by way of concrete assistance in the summer of 1992 so that I will have some hope of employment, some hope of revenues to meet, if nothing else, the government-imposed increased costs for returning to colleges and universities in Ontario in the fall of 1992?"

Hon Mr Rae: First of all, I want to say to the honourable member that we have authorized as a cabinet a 7% increase in tuition fees, that's true. I would say to the honourable member we have also indicated very clearly that any increase in the cost of fees will be fully covered in terms of additional coverage by OSAP with respect to that 7%.

I would say to the honourable member that we are going to do everything we can to respond to the crisis within the difficulties we face in terms of our own economic situation. I'm sure he would not expect me to say the government will provide employment to every single person in our society who needs it, either for the summer or for the long term. We're going to do everything we can within our means and within the money we have. I'm sure that, given his own experiences and given his own realities he has to face in his riding, he will understand that we will be doing what we can.

We have the report from the member for St Andrew-St Patrick now, and the government will be responding to that shortly and as effectively as we possibly can, given the overall fiscal and economic situation we face.

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr Gary Carr (Oakville South): My question is to the Premier. While you were in opposition and last summer during the hearings before the justice committee on Sunday shopping for four straight weeks your government continually said that there was no way workers would be able to be protected from having to be forced to work on Sundays. My question is this: What has changed since last summer? What are you going to do to protect the workers so they aren't forced to work on Sundays?

Hon Bob Rae (Premier and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): All I can say to the honourable member is that I'm sure it's simply a truism to say that the most effective way to ensure people won't have to work on Sunday is simply to shut down stores. That's a true statement. However, I hope the honourable member would appreciate -- and I get the feeling that at least a majority of the members of his caucus would agree -- that the previous approaches which have been tried by a number of different governments over a number of different years have now come up against the reality of changing public attitudes with respect to this issue.

We have a law in place that clearly gives workers the right to refuse, and we have the assurance from the retail industry that it's going to fully respect and abide by that law. We certainly intend to hold them to that. I'm going to ask the special committee that we will be looking at to see whether there are other things that can be done to strengthen the effectiveness of that right.

I'm not going to list all the things one could do. I don't think that's helpful. Obviously we as a government have decided we're not going to simply impose those conditions or whatever they might be today, because we don't think enough work has been done in the marketplace to come up with the right approach and with the better approach. I do think that with changing attitudes -- I would include a changing attitude on the part of everyone in recognizing that this issue has been a difficult and divisive one for the province --

The Speaker: Would the Premier conclude his response, please.

Hon Mr Rae: I think there's reason to believe that the companies in the larger retail sector certainly understand, and I think employers generally understand, the need to respect individual choice in this area. We respect the choice of consumers, we respect the choice of store owners whether or not to open and we would ask all those to respect the rights of workers who choose not to work on a Sunday and who choose to do other things. We would ask that to take place.

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): I think many members across the floor would have expected it to be a very cold day when you'd hear the Premier of this province, Mr Bob Rae, standing up and making a statement such as that.

Mr Premier, let's be very clear. When in opposition, you said you could not protect the rights of workers on Sundays. Mr Premier, it's not bafflegab that's going to run around this issue. This is not like rent controls, where you kind of capitulated and you broke your promises. It's not like government-run auto insurance, where you can kind of send out the party line. There's no doubt in anyone's mind that you have broken a very important promise to the people of your party and the people who voted for you.

Now, there are also people out in this province --

Mr Noble Villeneuve (S-D-G & East Grenville): They'd rather not hear that.

Mr Stockwell: I'm quite sure that the members across the floor don't want to hear this stuff. I'm quite sure they don't want to hear it. But I ask for one moment, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: If the member were to direct his questions to the Chair, it would be helpful.

Mr Stockwell: You have, in fact, broken a very solid principle that you stood on for the past decade. I will say you got a number of votes last election on this issue.

The Speaker: Would the member place his supplementary.

Mr Stockwell: You have said in the past that when your government made a mistake you'd stand up and say you were wrong. Mr Premier, you have made a very clear and obvious mistake. You've broken a very clear and long-standing NDP policy.

The Speaker: Does the member have a supplementary?

Mr Stockwell: Will you stand up and tell the people of this province you were wrong and apologize?

Hon Mr Rae: I'm not quite sure how much or what volume of crow it is the member opposite would like me to ingest here. I would only say to members that I've been here for almost 10 years and in that time I think I've heard at least 12 different positions from the members of the Conservative Party on this issue. Similarly speaking, and I say this --

Mr Stockwell: You tell me. Ask me.

Hon Mr Rae: No, no. People have changed their minds. I've had one member of his caucus -- I'm not going to identify which one -- come over to me today and say: "I disagree with you. I'm still opposed to Sunday openings." I've had members of the Liberal Party -- I won't mention any names because these are conversations -- indicate they also take a different view from the view I've expressed today. I would say to the honourable member, yes, it's true to say I have changed --

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): You called people liars for this.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Stockwell: And they campaigned on it.

Hon Mr Rae: If the member would be good enough to listen for a moment; I realize he's in high orbit at this point. The octane is turned to its fullest amount.

Mr Conway: Better that than full retreat, Bob. This is hard to take. This is Bill Davis on separate schools. This is Bill Davis on Spadina. This is the Allied troops at Dunkirk. This is unbelievable.

Hon Mr Rae: Good one. The member for Renfrew is going to have a good day.

Mr Conway: This is the right decision, I will admit now.

Hon Mr Rae: This is the right decision. All right. I just want to explain one more thing. If the member is saying there has always been complete unanimity in the Conservative Party with respect to the direction to take or if he is saying the same thing is true in the Liberal Party, then I would say to him he is making a case that has no standing.

With respect to the enforceability of laws, on whether it's municipal option or whatever it may be, and other issues, I would say to him very clearly, we have taken what we think is the wisest course. It's a course others may disagree with. It's a course some may be disappointed with, but on balance I'm convinced it's the course that's in the best interests of the people of the province. That's the test every government has to meet with respect to public policy in this province.

MINISTRY OF COMMUNITY AND SOCIAL SERVICES HIRING

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): My question this afternoon is for the Minister of Community and Social Services. Minister, there is great concern around the hiring of the 450 eligibility review officers in your ministry. The public image of this new initiative is one of a policing system by investigating alleged fraud cases. Most studies indicate that less than 3% cheat the system. The hiring of fraud police creates a negative attitude towards those who legitimately rely on social assistance and channels financial and personnel resources the wrong way. What is the real purpose of the 450 eligibility review officers?

Hon Marion Boyd (Minister of Community and Social Services): I'm really grateful to the member for asking the question because I, too, have been disturbed by the press reports that seem to suggest the increase in staffing is to catch people who are doing something wrong. There is a perception of fraud out there. There have been claims on the part of municipalities and members opposite that in fact we are not being careful enough about eligibility. But eligibility has a whole lot more to it than fraudulent aspects.

You're quite right: Every study that has been done by internal audit, by the Provincial Auditor and by individual municipalities has indicated fraud is less than 5%. That is something that is significant when we're paying out $6.2 billion in assistance. We obviously have to be careful of that.

The real issue is those people who are eligible for Canada pension plan payments, unemployment insurance payments or parental support payments who ought not to be having to rely on social assistance for their income because there is another source of income. Those are the cases we are particularly interested in dealing with, as well as cases of overpayment where we have not been diligent enough or where people have not reported the full extent of other income.

Mr Martin: You know as I know, though, that there are some municipalities out there that may take advantage of this new initiative to do more policing than was proposed in your announcement. Is there anything the ministry can do or is going to do to ensure that these people do the kinds of things you've just laid out for me here today?

Hon Mrs Boyd: These employees will be provincial employees who will be administering the Family Benefits Act and, where the province has jurisdiction, the General Welfare Assistance Act. Municipalities administer the general welfare act through their own employees, so these employees are not expected to be at the behest of municipalities and to be doing anything other than administering the portions of the act that are under provincial jurisdiction. So I don't think you will find this will have any effect on those municipalities.

CORRECTIONAL FACILITY

Mr Robert V. Callahan (Brampton South): My question is to the Minister of Correctional Services. No doubt the minister is aware that Millbrook Correctional Centre is the closest thing to a maximum security prison this province has. It houses prisoners who are escapees and prisoners who perhaps have been convicted of sexual offences.

There was a very excellent program at Millbrook called Annex which allowed these prisoners, in an effort to rehabilitate them, to work on the grounds of the facility under the supervision of correctional guards. It's my understanding that over the last little while this has been turned into a garden party. These prisoners are now not looked after by correctional officers; they're being looked after by two gardeners. They get an extra $2,000 for doing it, but these gentlemen are not trained in looking after prisoners of this type.

Minister, you've placed Millbrook and the surrounding communities in severe difficulty and perhaps danger by this. I'd like to ask you how you can justify this type of conduct. Are you in fact aware of it, or did you just do what the Treasurer told you to do and cut 10% out of the budget? Are you aware of the risk at which you're putting the people of Millbrook?

Hon Allan Pilkey (Minister of Correctional Services): I'm aware of the subject matter but I'm not aware that we are putting any citizen at risk at all.

Up to eight carefully selected inmates with less than 30 days left in their sentences will be supervised by maintenance staff of the nature the member opposite mentioned. This is a type of arrangement that has been found in other work programs and many other correctional institutions throughout the province, and to date it has proven to be nothing short of successful.

Mr Callahan: Do I take from that that this is going to be a procedure you're going to adopt at other correctional facilities around the province by putting gardeners in place of guards? If that is the case, then I suggest you're sending a very dangerous message to the people of the province.

I suggest to you that a correctional officer makes $21 an hour. Mr Layton makes $37.50 an hour. Perhaps you can persuade your colleague the Minister of Health to forgo the services of Jack Layton. That would allow you to have at least one and a half or perhaps two guards.

The government seems to have money for everything else, any of its favourite programs, that simply drops out of the Treasurer's pocket. Do not the people of Ontario deserve the ability of having professional guards looking after correctional facilities? I'd like you to answer to the people of Ontario, because if something happens, you are the person who is directly responsible for it.

Hon Mr Pilkey: There are different levels of security within our facilities. Surely the member opposite wouldn't have us expend dollars unnecessarily on a level of protection that wasn't required.

FUEL SUBSTITUTION

Mr Leo Jordan (Lanark-Renfrew): My question is for the acting Minister of Energy. Mr Minister, last week in response to a question from the member for Durham East you stated that Ontario Hydro is currently involved in discussions with the gas industry on the issue of fuel substitution. Furthermore, you stated that the government would be pushing Bill 118 through as quickly as possible to get on with the fuel substitution program. Minister, what studies have your ministry and Ontario Hydro completed on the economic feasibility of these fuel-switching programs you are so eager to implement?

Hon Brian A. Charlton (Acting Minister of Energy): Perhaps I could start my response to the member by suggesting that if he hasn't seen any studies about completed proposals that we intend to make, I can refer him to the word he said I used last week. "Discussions" implies that we're still putting together programs. Discussions don't imply completed programs; discussions imply parties sitting down to work out the details. When those details are completed, I'll be releasing them here in the House.

Mr Jordan: The minister promised the Municipal Electric Association that it would be consulted before any proposals were made. Mr Minister, the London Public Utilities Commission has completed an extensive study which clearly indicates that its water heater load-shifting program is superior to fuel substitution. They are quite concerned that their project, which has been verified by Ontario Hydro, will be totally ignored. There is growing concern in many Ontario municipalities that Hydro is preparing to proceed with fuel substitution programs without the consent of or any consultation with the local utilities.

Minister, will you agree to delay all fuel substitution programs until all parties have been consulted and the affected utilities give their approval to proceed?

Hon Mr Charlton: No, I'm not going to delay fuel substitution programs and put this province in potential future jeopardy. I've heard members of the opposition raise the concerns the industrial sector in this province has raised on a number of occasions about energy security in Ontario. I'm not going to take the advice that the member opposite is putting forward and put this province at potential risk four or five years down the road.

Having said that, the London Public Utilities Commission has taken some initiative on its own, unlike many other public utilities in this province that have done nothing in terms of load shifting, fuel switching or energy efficiency.

It's an interesting approach that the London PUC has taken. We're prepared to have a look at it, but the London experience does not reflect either the numbers in the studies that Hydro itself has done or in the studies that some of the other groups have done and doesn't take into account a number of things like the government's desire to be able to back off, for example, from the high use of coal, which causes serious environmental emissions during the peak periods in winter and summer. Those are all things that we have to take into account as we make our final decisions around this kind of package.

VEHICLE LICENSING OFFICES

Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): I've got a question for the Minister of Transportation. Frank Mauro, Thomas Fang and Peter Perry are vehicle licence issuers. They're small business people. Frank Mauro has been serving the community of Welland for a long time now, and serving well, working hard, going the extra mile; similarly Thomas Fang on Fourth Avenue in St Catharines and Peter Perry down in Port Colborne, a young man who abandoned his previous career, a young person who's made a commitment to this office, to this government, operating his business.

I tell you, these people are afraid. They're afraid because, like me, they listened to the Minister of Transportation make a statement on December 5 introducing Ontario's strategy for safer roads. They saw that was part of the road ahead.

I tell you, having read the road ahead in Bill 164, that's the highway to hell in a handbasket. But I tell you what they're afraid of, that they are going to lose their status as vehicle licence issuers, that it's in the works, that it's inevitable.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): And your question?

Mr Kormos: What I need to know from the Minister of Transportation is, on behalf of these good, hardworking, public-minded, committed people, will he tell us and tell them, more important, that there are no plans to move these people out of those offices and to eliminate their role in our community?

Hon Gilles Pouliot (Minister of Transportation): Of course I do indeed welcome the question from my friend and colleague the member for Welland-Thorold. I'm somewhat appalled and shocked that anything would scare the member. I've heard him; Hansard will attest that he said he was afraid. The changes in that attitude must have come on the road to Damascus indeed. I'm aware of the valuable service, like we all are; we're talking in terms of 280 offices across the province of Ontario providing a service that has been provided, an essential service, for many, many years.

Business as usual does not prevent nor does it jeopardize jobs. This is the focus, this is what it's all about here. We have an obligation. Of course their role will change. It has changed in the past. It will change in the future. Our government will respond to the needs of an ever-changing society. I'll tell you something, Mr Speaker, with the highest of respect, we've never discussed our obligations. Our relationship goes beyond the strictly business. It entails an obligation that we intend to respect.

The Speaker: Would the minister complete his response.

Hon Mr Pouliot: Nothing will ever happen without discussion with the client group.

Mr Kormos: I've got a supplementary. You see, Frank Mauro from Welland and Peter Perry, longtime licence issuer from Port Colborne, and Thomas Fang, a young person, a new business person in St Catharines, are going to be among the hundreds of people at the Ontario Motor Vehicle Licence Issuers Association annual meeting here in Toronto on June 14. I'm going to be speaking to those people at their annual meeting.

The minister is an honourable person. I remember the minister when, as my mentor, he sat with me in the opposition and fought for the rights of little people against powerful bureaucracies and big government. I remember the minister. The vehicle licence issuers regard him as an integrous and honourable person as well.

This is an important issue, Speaker, please. This is the question. Will the Minister of Transportation permit me and authorize me, when I address those motor vehicle licence issuers at their annual meeting on June 14, to tell them, on behalf of the Minister of Transportation, that their roles as small business people are not in jeopardy, that this government will protect them, defend them and sustain them as this government should?

Mr Charles Harnick (Willowdale): Yes or no, Gilles.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Pouliot: Monsieur le Président, comme vous le savez, ce genre de question demande une réponse méticuleuse. My friend the member for Welland-Thorold would attest that this kind of question deserves more than a yes or no answer. But suffice it that in terms of the licensees doing what they've done for many years, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. They will keep providing.

I know the member will convey to our friends with all the sincerity at his command that as long as they are under the auspices of the Ministry of Transportation, we have an obligation that goes beyond the strictly business. Nothing will happen. There will be changes in the style of provision but we have an obligation, which is a moral obligation, as long as those fine people operate under the auspices of the Ministry of Transportation.

WASTE MANAGEMENT

Mr Gregory S. Sorbara (York Centre): I have a question for the Minister of the Environment. The minister's credibility as the champion of the 3Rs of reuse, reduction and recycling is really coming into question very seriously and there is now yet another attack on that credibility.

I tell the minister something she already knows: The municipality of Metropolitan Toronto is currently considering the reduction of the tipping fee, the cost of dumping a tonne of garbage for commercial and industrial users, from $152 a tonne to perhaps as low as $75 a tonne and the transfer of the cost of that tipping to the individual home owner, potentially by the allocation of a tax on a per-bag basis on the garbage we as citizens put out on the street. That is the transfer of a tax on industrial and commercial users to the individual home owner who already pays for that garbage service through property taxes.

Worse still, the reduction of this tipping fee will put in jeopardy the entire recycling and reuse industry, fragile as it is, because it will then become cheaper for industrial generators of garbage to simply dump that garbage. I ask the minister, will she intervene and prevent Metro Toronto from making this tax grab and this reallocation of taxes from commercial users to home owners and will she stop this attack on a fledgling industry that actually could, if she intervened at this point, have some sign of hope and life in the future?

Hon Ruth A. Grier (Minister of the Environment): The recycling industry, which the member characterizes as being fledgling, is in fact a growing, very profitable and progressive industry right across this province. I hope the member will concede that has happened over the last two years because of the very strong commitment of this government to putting the 3Rs first, as opposed to putting disposal as the only solution to waste management.

I want to say to the member that I think he is unfairly characterizing what Metro Toronto is discussing. They have not reached a conclusion in any of their debates and what they are doing, as municipalities around the province are doing, is struggling to put together a comprehensive, integrated waste management system whereby the revenues from disposal are used to fund 3Rs.

What they did in the past under a previous government was put in a tipping fee without having in place any -- on the other side of the balance or of the scales -- markets for the recycled material, any kind of powers to order them to direct where waste is going. Those are exactly the kinds of programs that are part of our waste reduction initiatives and that I'm confident will lead not only Metro but all municipalities to have an integrated, comprehensive system. That has got to be the objective.

PETITIONS

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr Steven Offer (Mississauga North): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario which reads:

"Whereas investment and job creation are essential for Ontario's economic recovery, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To instruct the Minister of Labour to table the results of independent, empirical studies of the impact that amendments to the Labour Relations Act will have on investment and jobs before proceeding with those amendments."

Those petitions have been signed by Dial One Temp Air Control, Rockwell International of Canada Ltd, the Merchants Mall Association and Cambridge Brass. I have signed my name to these petitions.

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): "Whereas independent and non-partisan economic studies have concluded that the proposed changes to Ontario labour legislation will increase job losses; and

"Whereas they will cause a decline in investment in Ontario; and

"Whereas they will seriously undermine the recovery and the maintenance of a sound economic environment in the province;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario government declare a moratorium on any proposed changes to the labour legislation in the best interests of the people of Ontario."

That's signed by 197 people from Orillia, Penetanguishene, Bracebridge, Port Sydney, Sydenham, Etobicoke, and I've affixed my name to it also.

MUNICIPAL BOUNDARIES

Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): I have a petition objecting to the arbitrator's report for the greater London area which reads as follows:

"That the Legislature of Ontario reject the arbitrator's report for the greater London area in its entirety, condemn the arbitration process to resolve municipal boundary issues as being patently an undemocratic process and reject the recommendation of a massive annexation of land by the city of London."

I have signed the petition.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Stephen Owens (Scarborough Centre): I have two petitions. The first I am presenting on behalf of 236 parents of students at St Agatha Catholic school in my riding, and it says:

"We the parents and teachers of St Agatha school are concerned about the way in which Catholic education is funded by the Ontario government and Metropolitan Toronto.

"Although the separate schools were given the right in 1984 to provide education to the end of grade 12 OAC, they were never given equal funding. For example, in 1991, a Catholic elementary school child in Metro was educated on 75% of the money spent on his public school friend and the Catholic high school student was allotted only 70% of the money spent on his public school counterpart. These differences represent a shortfall of $1,678 per student at the elementary level and $2,502 at the high school level, leaving the separate school board $198 million short of their Metro counterparts in total operating costs/revenue for the same number of students.

"The BNA of 1867 recognizes the right of Catholic students to a Catholic education. In keeping with this, the province of Ontario supports two educational systems, kindergarten to grade 12 OAC. Unfortunately this support is not equally divided among the separate school system and the public school system. Out of 30% of the students in Metro, only 20% of residential taxes go into the separate school coffers.

"We urge you to act now to restructure the way in which municipal and provincial tax dollars are apportioned so that Ontario's two principal educational systems are funded not only fully but with equity and on an equal basis."

With that I affix my signature of support.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas independent and non-partisan economic studies have concluded that the proposed changes to Ontario labour legislation will increase job losses; and

"Whereas they will cause a decline in investment in Ontario; and

"Whereas they will seriously undermine the recovery and the maintenance of a sound economic environment in the province;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario government declare a moratorium on any proposed changes to the labour legislation in the best interests of all the people of Ontario," including all the people who have signed these petitions.

ONTARIO WASTE MANAGEMENT CORP

Mr Ron Hansen (Lincoln): I have another petition to the Legislature of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario Waste Management Corp is proposing to build and operate a 'huge centralized' toxic waste incinerator and landfill site in the heart of Ontario's farm land, Niagara; and

"Whereas the toxic waste must be treated at the source because transportation of such huge volumes of toxic waste on our highways is suicidal;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to change the mandate and directions being promoted by this crown corporation, OWMC."

On this petition I have 560 signatures from residents across Ontario and I affix my name to this petition.

REVENUE FROM GAMING

Mr Ron Eddy (Brant-Haldimand): I have three petitions. The first petition is to the Legislature of Ontario, signed by 46 residents of the towns of Haldimand and Dunnville and adjoining areas:

"Whereas the Ontario government has indicated it has plans to open gambling establishments in Niagara and other locations in Ontario,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to abandon such plans for legalized gambling."

I've affixed my signature.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas independent and non-partisan economic studies have concluded that the proposed changes to the Ontario labour legislation will increase job losses; and

"Whereas they will cause a decline in investment in Ontario; and

"Whereas they will seriously undermine the recovery of the maintenance of a sound economic environment in the province,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario government declare a moratorium on any proposed changes to the labour legislation in the best interests of the people of Ontario."

This is signed by 141 people from North York, Wallaceburg, Downsview and Weston, and to which I attach my signature.

LAND-LEASED COMMUNITIES

Mr Larry O'Connor (Durham-York): I have a petition here.

"We, the residents of a land-leased community, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the residents of Sutton-By-The-Lake felt the previous government set up a committee to report on land-leased communities but took no specific action to protect these communities; and

"Whereas the residents of Sutton-By-The-Lake feel it should be a priority of this government to release the report and take action to bring forward legislation on the following issues that surround land-leased communities; and

"Whereas the residents feel the government of Ontario should examine the problem of no protection against conversion to other uses which would result in the loss of home owners' equity; and

"Whereas the residents of these communities do not receive concise and clear information about their property tax bills; and

"Whereas there are often arbitrary rules set by landlords and owners of land-leased communities which place unfair restrictions or collect commissions on the resale of residents' homes; and

"Whereas there has been confusion resulting with the status of residents with long-term leases and where they fall under the rent review legislation,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to follow through and to release the committee report for land-leased communities and to propose legislation to give adequate protection to individuals who live in land-leased communities."

I have affixed my name.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr Gary Carr (Oakville South): I am pleased to table a petition signed by concerned employers from my riding of Oakville South and from southeast Burlington, which reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the proposed changes to the labour legislation will increase potential job losses and

whereas they will cause a decline of investment in Ontario; and

"Whereas they will seriously undermine the recovery of a sound economic environment; and

"Whereas a recent public opinion poll showed that 83% of Ontario's citizens support the withdrawal of these proposed changes,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly as follows:

"To declare a moratorium on any proposed changes to the existing labour legislation."

I have affixed my signature to it, and these are from the people of Oakville South.

RELIGIOUS EDUCATION

Mr Ron Eddy (Brant-Haldimand): Signed by 44 residents of the towns of Haldimand and Dunnville and adjoining areas, to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"The Ministry of Education has made evolutionism a compulsory core unit in senior OAC (previously grade 13) history and science. Since evolutionism and creationism are completed acts in the past, neither can be proven or disproven. In fairness to all parents and students, equal time should be given in presenting the underlying assumptions of each. Through the two-model approach, the skills of critical thinking such as recognition of bias, awareness of society's influence on one's bias and the awareness of assumptions can allow students to examine their own belief systems and better appreciate an opposing view.

These skills should be incorporated into all textbooks, approved in circular 14, dealing with the question of origins."

I have affixed my signature to the petition.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): I have quite a number of names attached to the four petitions: 189, 148, 125 and 187. Not one was collected by Jack Layton, I might add, and not one cost a nickel for the province of Ontario to collect. I thought I might point that out as opposed to, say, $300 a day.

"Whereas independent and non-partisan economic studies have concluded that the proposed changes to the Ontario labour legislation will increase job losses; and

"Whereas they will cause a decline in investment in Ontario; and

"Whereas they will seriously undermine the recovery and the maintenance of a sound economic environnment in the province,

"We, the undersigned" -- and I have already mentioned that there are hundreds of signatures here, from places like Crystal Beach, Fort Erie, St Marys, Burlington, Timmins, Kingston, Windsor, Stratford, Dryden, Gloucester, Kirkton, Casselman and Don Mills, Agincourt, Scarborough and Thornhill -- "petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario government declare a moratorium on any proposed changes to the labour legislation in the best interests of the people of Ontario."

I once again will add that Jack Layton didn't have to collect these; these are free. I will affix my signature as well.

MUNICIPAL BOUNDARIES

Mrs Irene Mathyssen (Middlesex): I have a petition here signed by 45 citizens of the county of Middlesex who petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reject the report of the greater London arbitrator, Mr John Brant. Many of us in Middlesex have grave concerns about the size of this annexation and the recommendations with the report and would like to emphasize the importance of protecting agricultural land in the area of Middlesex county. This is an issue of great concern and the utmost importance to my constituents and to me.

Mr Ron Eddy (Brant-Haldimand): I have a similar petition to the Legislature of Ontario, presented by 23 residents of Middlesex county and area:

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"That the Legislature of Ontario reject the arbitrator's report for the greater London area in its entirety, condemn the arbitration process to resolve municipal boundary issues as being patently an undemocratic process and reject the recommendation of a massive annexation of land by the city of London."

I affix my signature.

TOBACCO TAXES

Mr Noble Villeneuve (S-D-G & East Grenville): I have a petition to the honourable Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario. It's a rather refreshing petition, and I'm glad to see the Treasurer is here. It says:

"We, the following flue-cured tobacco producers, express our sincere appreciation for the support and assistance provided to our industry by the local mayors, municipal officials, chambers of commerce, communities and businesses. We believe that your support and assistance was a major contributor and contributing factor in the government's decision to suspend the export tax and not increase taxation on tobacco products. We express our deep appreciation for a job very well done."

I have affixed my signature to this petition as well.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr Ted Arnott (Wellington): I have a petition that's signed by approximately 400 people. It reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas independent and non-partisan economic studies have concluded that the proposed changes to Ontario's labour legislation will increase job losses; and

"Whereas they will cause a decline in investment in Ontario; and

"Whereas they will seriously undermine the recovery and the maintenance of a sound economic environment in this province,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario government declare a moratorium on any proposed changes to the labour legislation in the best interests of the people of Ontario."

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

Mr Runciman from the standing committee on government agencies presented the committee's sixth report.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Pursuant to standing order 104(g)(11), the report is deemed to be adopted by the House.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

RETAIL BUSINESS HOLIDAYS AMENDMENT ACT (SUNDAY SHOPPING), 1992 / LOI DE 1992 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LES JOURS FÉRIÉS DANS LE COMMERCE DE DÉTAIL (OUVERTURE DES COMMERCES LE DIMANCHE)

Mr Pilkey moved first reading of Bill 38,

An Act to amend the Retail Business Holidays Act in respect of Sunday Shopping / Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les jours fériés dans le commerce de détail en ce qui concerne l'ouverture des commerces le dimanche.

Motion agreed to.

Hon Allan Pilkey (Solicitor General): I just want to indicate that the bill will eliminate Sunday from the current definition of holidays under the Retail Business Holidays Act, allowing stores in Ontario to open on Sundays with the exception of Easter Sunday, which is preserved as a holiday on which stores must close. The

section of the act which permits stores to be open on Sundays in December will also be repealed, and the act will also make it possible for retailers who hold commercial leases to remain closed on Sundays if they wish, regardless of the terms of their lease. When the bill is passed, these amendments will come into force retroactive to today.

DUTCH CANADIAN ALLIANCE OF ONTARIO, INC. ACT, 1992

Mr Eves, on behalf of Mr Harnick, moved first reading of Bill Pr39,

An Act to revive The Dutch Canadian Alliance of Ontario, Inc.

Motion agreed to.

LOI DE 1992 SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ DE LA SÉCURITÉ ROUTIÈRE DE L'ONTARIO / ONTARIO ROAD SAFETY CORPORATION ACT, 1992

M. Pouliot propose la première lecture du projet de loi 39, Loi créant la Société de la sécurité routière de l'Ontario et modifiant certaines lois dont le ministre des Transports assure l'application /

An Act to establish the Ontario Road Safety Corporation and to amend certain Acts administered by the Minister of Transportation.

Motion agreed to.

Hon Gilles Pouliot (Minister of Transportation): As members will recall, I outlined the government's plan to address road safety in the House last December. Today I am pleased to be introducing a bill that will allow for the creation of the Ontario Road Safety Corp, expected to be in operation by the fall of 1993. This organization will provide provincial leadership and coordination in all matters relating to road safety. The goal of the Ontario Road Safety Corp is to reduce the number of collisions in Ontario and the terrible trauma that road crashes cause for so many of our citizens.

Reducing collisions and their costs requires attention to more than just driver behaviour, so the corporation will also have the mandate to improve the driving environment and alleviate the effects of crash injuries. Improved safety is an essential part of our government's auto insurance reform strategy. Fewer collisions will mean fewer claims, reduced health care and policing costs and, of course, lower premiums.

La Société de la sécurité routière de l'Ontario est le résultat d'une consultation entreprise auprès d'autres ministères et agences du secteur privé, des organismes de la promotion de la sécurité et de recherche et des organismes communautaires à travers toute la province.

The Ontario Road Safety Corp will be staffed by public servants. The corporation's board of directors will be appointed by the government and will report to the Minister of Transportation. The minister will be fully accountable to this House for the agency's activities. The Ontario Road Safety Corp will have much greater financial and operational flexibility than the government ministry. The new agency will be able to engage in revenue-producing activities, joint ventures and other activities to help the corporation maximize its effectiveness.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

POWER CORPORATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1992 / LOI DE 1992 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ DE L'ÉLECTRICITÉ

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for third reading of Bill 118,

An Act to amend the Power Corporation Act / Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Société de l'électricité.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): The member for Ottawa South.

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Ottawa South): At the time I was speaking on this yesterday, when the proceedings were terminated, I was questioning the wisdom of having Ontario Hydro subsidize the gas utilities through a fuel-switching program. That comment was made in the face of very clear evidence to the effect that at the present time people are switching to gas whenever they can and in ever-increasing numbers. The market forces are acting in the marketplace, and as a result people are making the switch whenever they possibly can.

One of the things we have to pay some attention to is the availability of natural gas, or other problems connected with that, if we're about to embark on a program whereby we're going to switch people from one fuel, one source for heating our homes, electricity, to another, natural gas. It is not without precedent that we've had some problems in these matters. In the past, governments have paid us -- and it was the federal government at that time -- to switch from oil to electricity. Now another government is going to tell us we should be switching off electricity, on to natural gas, fuel oil or perhaps even wood. In fairness to our public,