- MG-8048 Third Session -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 68 • 10 a.m., FRIDAY, MAY 21, 19 93 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thlrty·Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoiHical Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIL LI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMI AK, Dave CUMMING S, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICK ES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTIN DALE, Doug McA LPINE, Gerry McCRAE , James, Hon. MciNTO SH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK , Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS , Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Ron La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND P PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP - -

- 3262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, May 21,1993 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed) Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHER EAS the Canadian Wheat Board has played a vital role in the orderly marketing of Canadian wheat, barley and other grain products since its inception in 19 35; and

WHEREAS the federal Minister of Agriculture is considering removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board; and WH ERE AS this is an other step towards dismantling the board; and

WHEREAS, as in the case with the removal of oats from the Wheat Board in 19 89, there has been no consultation with the board of directors of the Wh eat Board, with the 11 -memb er advisory comm ittee to the boar d or the pr oducer s themselves; and

WHEREAS the federal minister has said that there will be no plebiscite of farmers before the announcement is made. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to reques t the Manitoba Minis ter of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers on this issue as soon as possible. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Plohman). lt complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citi zens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Manitoba government, in an unprecedented move has cut the public education funding for children of Manitoba by $16 million (2 percent) in 19 93-94; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government has cut much needed support services to special needs students by laying off clinicians; and WH EREAS the Mani toba gover nmen t has removed the local autonomy of school boards by capping special requirement increases at2 perce nt; and WH EREAS the quality of education for our children has been drastica lly impacted and reduced by these measures; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government has not demons trated a com mitmen t to providing an adequate and useful education for each child in this province. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Manitoba governmen t consider increasing its funding to education so that the children of this province receiv e the quality education they deserve and need. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Maloway). lt complies with the privileges and the practice s of the House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed) Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

3263 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993

WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cos t-effective and crit ic al for many families in isolated communities; and

WHEREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentis ts, nurses and assistants providing this service; and WHER EAS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray th at the Legislat ive Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. * (1 005) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 37- The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the adm inistration of The Ma nitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rnance (Mr. Manness), th at Bill 37, The Manitoba Publ ic Insu rance Corpora ti on Amendmen t and Conseq uen tia l Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Societe d'assurance publique du Manitoba et apportant des modifications corr ela tiv es a d'aut res lois), be introduced and that the same now be received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Go vernor, having been advised of th e con t en ts of this bill, recommends it to the House. l would like tota ble his message as well. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attent ion of honourable members to the galle ry, where we have with us this morning from the R.J.

Waugh School thirty-five Grade 6 students under the direc tion of Marg Kempthorne. This school is located in the const ituency of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly (Mr. Rocan). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Asslnlbolne River Diversion Data CollecUon Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the OpposHion): Mr.

Speaker, users of the Assiniboine River, upstream and downst ream, have been raising legitimate concerns about the lack of data being applied to the Pembina Valley project and the data that Is going to be utilized by the government in its environmental hearings. The community of Brandon has said, and I quote: We know more about the water supply for our city than the provincia l government-and they do not trust the provincial government on this issue.

The City of Winnipeg has had an executive policy report stating that the data utilized by the 19 90 study is insufficien t for purposes of the environmen tal process that is going on now. We have just reviewed a report on the Assiniboine River flow enhance ment conducted by the Water Resources branch of the Department of Natural Resourc es, which also states in its concl usions th at although Manitoba Water Resources does monitor new licensed water usage, there is limited fact ual data of overall wa ter usage from the Assiniboine River.

It is therefore difficult for water managers to make informed operating decisions or to develop rational water managemen t plans. I would like to ask the Premier, if there is not sufficient data on the Assiniboine River basin, how can the government be proceeding on the fast track with their environmental hearings? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, very straightforwardly, if th ere is not sufficient data, then the Clean Environment Commission will make th at judgment as to whether or not they have sufficient data upon which to make a decision. That is the way the process is.

That is th e way it was put forward in the legislation that was passed by the New Democr atic government , and we are following the process. Asslnlbolne River Diversion Consultations-Saskatchewan Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the OpposHion): Mr. Speaker, I do not believe it is adequate for the - -

- May 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3264 government to have a narrow-scoping proposal in the Department of Environment which is, of course, the necessary area which the environmental review panel must look at. If the scoping is narrow and data is wrong, the concl usions, therefore, I thi nk, will be inadequate for the people of Manitoba. I am very concerned about the government with this fast- track approach, given th eir own department's data. Mr. Speaker, the Assiniboine River and the Shellm outh Dam has an agreement of 50 percent­ (interjection) I know the minister is concerned about my questions.

There are other members of the Conservative caucus who may agree with us with their public comments and have had to stand up with their constit uents on this project . I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): Has he discussed the iss ue of the Assiniboine River flow and th e Assiniboi ne River diversion wit h the Province of Saskatchewan, given the fact th at we have a 50 percent share agreement with th e Province of Saskatchewan dealing with the upper Assiniboine runoff? * (1 01 0) Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, the memb er makes some very sweeping comments about the guidelines th at have been put in place for this review. As a matter of fact , an awful lot of people who are looking at this project really made the point that these guidelines went beyond what they expected in terms of the outline th at the Depar tmen t of Environmen t had put forward. Frankly, these are issues that will be very widely discussed and aired at the commission. As to the conditions of the guidelines, the commis sion may well choose to ask questions beyond th at if they believe there is insufficien t informat ion.

I really cha llenge the member of the opposition to look at the process that was put in place, drafted and brought to culmin ation by the administ ration prior to this one. Now he stands th ere and says it is no good. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows th at the process requires accu rate data, competent, reliable and credible data, and it requires broad scoping arrangements for the panel to look at. We have called all along for a basin-wide review and a federal-provincial review of this project . The minister did not answer the question.

The question was: Given th e agreemen t with the Province of Saskatchewan dealing with the upper Assiniboine River and th e 50 pe rcent fl ow agreement th at we have with the Province of Saskatchewan, has this government discussed this project with th e Province of Saskatchewan? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, we have been in discussion wit h the Province of Saskatch ewan virtually since the day we came into office about water flows all the way along the border-R eindeer Lake, th e Shellmouth reservoir, the Rafferty ­ Alameda, the Souris River.

Frankly, he is choosing to charac ter ize th e volumes that are being discussed in such a way that would indica te th at this will somehow be a critical fac tor. That will be clearly answered by th e proponents or th ey will not get a licence. Francophone Schools Governance Cost Analysis Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, this is a question to the Minister of Finance or the Act ing Minister of Educat ion.

The government is in the process of implementing th e Supreme Court decision on Francophone governance of schools as it must, but in order to have an informed public debate on this issue, on the Francophone governance issue, it is important, even essen tial, th at the public and the school divisions understand the financial impact of that decision and th e funding for exist ing schoo l divisions.

Can the Minister of Rnance or the Act ing Minister of Educat ion tell this House if he has compute d the potential cost , based on eligible students, th at would be transferred from existing school divisions by way of grants? Can he provide us with the specific amo unt s and ta bl e th at in forma t ion in th e Legislature here? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I cannot give a definitive response to that question.

Certainly, the government, in setting up the model, set as a major principle that th ere would not be additional total cost s, obviously other than start-up resources that would be required in some respec ts. I would encourage the member to direct those questions specificall y to the Minister of Educat ion (Mrs. Vodrey) in com mittee. We are hoping th at this House will give quick and speedy passage to second reading on this bill, so those types of

3265 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 questions and/or concerns around th at point can be brought forward in comm ittee. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, surely the Minister of Finance should be aware of what costs we are dealing with here.

In light of the fact that we have estimated the transfer at some $29 million, based on the Gallant report, of provincia l grants and up to $7 million of property tax revenue, in light of the fact that the minister's policy is that th ere would be a transfer at the loca l le vel of property tax revenue, could the Mini ster of Finance or th e Acting Mini ster of Educat ion tell us if he is planning to compensate existing school divisions for this transfer, and what form, what level, that compensa tion would be? * (1 01 5) Mr. Manness: Again, Mr.

Speaker, the very general princip le s- and, again, I will only address the general principles in my response-a re th at the local schoo l division, existing, may have to transfer a portion of its revenue at no higher levy rate but equivalent to the number of students who now, by way of their parents, choose to take their schoo ling under th e auspices of the new Francophone division. Mr. Speaker, as far as the total amount of revenue coming forward from th e assessment , the assessed base, we would anticipate that there would be no increase in the total .

Obviously, there will be a split prorated on the number of students who stay in the local division as compared to now those who are governed under the new Francophone division. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about at least $29 million plus the local revenue from local taxpayers that would be transferred. It could be as high as $35 million to $40 million.

In light of the tight financial situation that school divisions find thems elves in as a result , to a large degree, of this government's policies, I want to ask the minister if he does not think it is fair and reason ab l e th at th ere would be adequa te compensa tion because of the massive decl ining enrollments th at may occur in some school divisions as a result of the changeover to ease the impact of this transfer. Mr. Manness: Well , Mr.

Speaker, the question is fair, but as I point out to the member, he would be well aware th at we have an educat ion finance formula in place which takes into account dec lining enrollment. Obviously, if there are fewer students to teach, the re are adjustments that are going to have to be made within existing divisions. The ed finance formula deals with it, and we think th at given th e edict and the direc tive from the Supreme Court, we have followed a reasonable course in trying to provide what is required under the Supreme Court ruling and yet within a finite pool of resources.

Social Planning Council Recommendations Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one of the frustrating parts about sitting in this House is the Estimates process where one tries to get the government to accept new ideas and to listen to what the critics have to say, but to no avail. It does not really matter whether it is this government or that government. Neither one of them pays any attention, but one hopes th at they do listen to groups which make representat ions on behalf of the children of this province. Mr. Speaker, the Family Services minister (Mr.

Gilleshammer) met th is week with th e Socia l Planning Council which raised with him specific concerns about the cut s to children in the province of Manitoba as a result of the budget . Can the minister say, since he was obviously not convinced by the crit ics of either party about the disproportionate, so-called fairness being borne by children in this budget , if he list ened to the Social Planning Council? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I have met frequently with the Social Planning Council to discuss issues they bring forward from time to time, and research they do.

They had contacted me in March of this year to set up a meeting, and bec ause of some of their internal difficulties and changes, th ey were not able to come forward until just this week. We did have a good discussion on a wide range of subjects. They brought along with them some other groups th at had issues to put forward, and I can say that we listened intently and look forward to further meetings with them and will look seriously at any of the research the y bring forward. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister tell us today if he listened cl early to the presentations that were made on behalf of children and the very high poverty rate-i n fact th e highest poverty rate in -

May 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3266 this country for children in poverty is in the province of Manitoba-a nd if he is going to e.dju:.t polic:!es of his department to better represent those same children? Mr.GI IIeshammer: Mr. Speaker, I can assure you and the House that we did listen very careful ly. The issues presented were on a wide range of subjects, including the advocates they brought with them.

We have always valued the information brought forward by the Social Planning Council, and we did have a lively discussion on some of the fact ors that they feel our departm ent and this government should take into consider ation. As I indicated, we have made commitmen ts to meet with them in the future. * (10 20) Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, but if it is correc t, as the ministe r has just said, th at he values the information which the Social Planning Council brings forward, is he going to change the direction of the Department of Family Services so they will now better represent the needs of children, which are frankly not being represented at the present time by this government? Mr. Gllleshammer: I can recall in the Estimates process going over a number of the reforms we have brought in to the Social Allowance s Program, to the child welfare program, the tremendous positive changes we have made in the daycare program .

I can assure you that the Social Planning Council and their input in the past have had an effect on some of the policy changes this government has made, and we look forward to future discussions with them . Property Taxes Impact on Seniors Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, we are receiving ca lls from seniors right across the city who are upset about the increases in their property taxes as a result of the actions of this government . Could the Minister of Rnance explain how many seniors are affected by this change and what the average tax increase is for the seniors? Hon.

Clayton Man ness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker,! do not have my budget material with me. I answered that same question several times right after the Budget Debate. I am well aware that there is no impact on seniors earning col lect ively within the household $20,000 and less. I am talking about the pensioners' school tax credit. I am led to believe that the total impact of all our tax credit decisions is somewher e in the area of around $45 million to $50 million. Mr.

Hlckes: Does the Minister of Rnance think it is fair that some ofthe poorest citi zens of our province, our seniors, who built this country for us, are being asked to pay 20 to 80 percent increases in their property taxes? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, I think that after $20,000 of income, the abil ity-to-pay principle comes forward very quick ly, and I take some pride in the fact that, to the extent that we could in our budget, without dismantling the whole tax credit system which governments in the past, including the NDP government, worked so hard to try and build­ without totally dismantling It, I think that we did our best to adopt the ability-to-pay principle with respect to the removal of some of the property tax measures. I dare say, Mr.

Speaker, as I look across all the budgets that have come out since ours, I can see, for instance, in Quebec, as details come fo rward, a significant reduc tion with respect to property tax credit . Seniors do not mind paying their share as long as they see where the government in place is trying to do its best to keep the whole expenditure level down so th at taxes do not have to rise. There is only one government in Canada th at has not increased taxes this past year, and it is this government . Mr. Hlckes: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that is going to be a comfort to many, many seniors.

Will the Minister of Finance commit that he will provide to this House as soon as possible a full impact report on his disastrous tax credit changes for Manitoba seniors? Will he commi t to reverse any changes that are shown to disproportionately and unfairly affect Manitoba seniors who have been ca lling us daily? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, at the next Question Period, I will bring some of that detail with me, and I will certain ly show the breakouts by income groups, by either single or married senior status, and I will certainly share some greater detail about that . * (1 025)

3267 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 Student Social Allowances Program Premier's Position Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St.

Johns): Yesterday, in Question Period, the Premier said that students affected by the elimination of the Student Social Allowances Program could: • ... seek the resources of others in their community, their families, the other support networks in their community ... ." Either the Premier is not aware or has deliberately chosen to hide from the taxpaying public the fact that recipients of student social allowances are means tested and cannot get into the program if they have any other resources, any other means to get an education other than the Student Social Allowances Program.

Since the recipients of the program cannot get an education without student social allowances and cannot get a job without an education, could the Premier tell this House and Manitobans how he can justify taking a public policy position that it is better to collect welfare than it is to go to school and get a job? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am not taking that position at all. I am taking the position that no other government in Canada provides this kind of program. In all those other provinces, people are able to find other resources in order to go and take their education.

As people have done in the past, prior to this program being available, people find ways of working part time to put themselves through or adjusting their schedules so they can, in fact, do this with their own resources. Funding Reinstatement Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if the Premier is aware that recipients of the Student Social Allowances Program cannot stay in the program unless they have almost perfect attendance and unless they have excellent grades. Given that, would the Premier now reconsider reinstating this mos t cost-effective, sensible program? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I repeat, this program is not available in any other province in the country. Cost-Effectiveness Ms. Judy Wasylyc la-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, since the Premier is now aware that recipients of the program are means tested and also that they must have excellent grades, would the Premier tell this House and all Manitobans whether he believes the Student Social Allowances Program to be cost-effective? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member talks about cost-effectiveness. She presents no information to suggest she has evidence that it is.

No other province in Canada has the program, can justify the program, is willing to finance the program. I would think that says something about its cost-effectiveness, Mr. Speak er. Hay Report Recommendations lmplernentaUon Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood) : I asked the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission yesterday for some definitive answers on the status of the Hay audit, a report which outlined great inequities for women in the civil service, as well as minorities. He responded that the work of the committee continues, quote, unquote. Can the minister be more specific today?

When can we expect a plan of action from this government? Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act): Yes, Mr. Speaker, as we got into this issue yesterday at the end of Question Period, I can tell the honourable member for Crescentwood that the Hay audit implementation committee, despite the loss of its chair, Gerrie Hammond, last year, has continued its work.

The implementation team has had consultations with civil servants across Manitoba, with Manitoba Women in Gover nment, the Civi l Service Commission staff, the Civil Service Commission Board, the Manitoba Government Employees' Union, the Human Service s committee. Rural meetings have been held in The Pas, Thompson and Brandon, and I understand they will have a report for myself some time over the next number of weeks. Ms. Gray: With a supplementary question to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs.

Mitchelson): In March of 1990, the minister outlined that one of her objectives was to promote equality - -

- May 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3268 for women, and the initiative undertaken was the Hay audit within the Civil Service Commission. Can the Minister responsible for the Status of Women table in this House any correspondence she has had with the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission to try and determine when we will actually get an action plan, not simply a report, but an action plan to implement changes needed in the Civil Service Commission? Mr. Praznlk: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the member for Crescentwood that the Minister responsible for the Status of Women has been working very closely with myself and with the Hay audit committee. I believe there are some staff from her department who serve on that committee, who have kept both of us informed as to its progress.

As I have indicated in the answer to the first question, we expect to have a formal plan very shortly, but I must tell the honourable member that many of the recommendations of the Hay audit report have already been implemented by the Civil Service Commission and were done so over the last couple of years since the report was released. *

(1030) Ms. Gray: With a final supplementary to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission: If he will recall, that is exactly what his staff, the civil service staff have been telling him. Women in Government have been telling him that, in fact, those re commendations have not been implemented, so we have a problem here. Can the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission tell us how soon, once he gets that report, he is prepared to implement some plan of action as well as meet with Women in Government to ensure that there are real changes made? Perhaps he should not just- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Mr. Praznlk: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would offer some of that same advice to the member for Crescentwood in some of the people she may be getting her advice from within or attached to or around the Manitoba Women in Government organization. I can tell the member for Crescentwood that members who are involved in that organization serve on the committee. Work has gone on, and I would want to point out to her, as well, that I as minister have made offers to that organization to develop some particular programming to assist in developing skills.

They have yet to take me up on that offer. There are two sides to this story. I think some of her information may not be entirely correct. APM Management Consultants Office Renovation Costs Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, the minister has committed $3.9 million this year to its U.S. consultant plus up to $800,000 in expenses, probably tax-free, to the U.S. consultants to review our health care system. Mr.

Speaker, can the minister outline, in this time of huge cutbacks to hospital budgets and the huge scaling down of staff at the hospitals, how much it cost for the renovations of the offices at the Health Sciences Centre to house this U.S. consultant and her cohorts? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend has slightly erred again in his

preamble. My honourable friend full well knows-and if my honourable friend were to care to pick up the phone and phone either the St. Boniface General Hospital or the Health Sciences Centre, my honourable friend will know that both of those hospitals, their boards and senior management , urged the government to retain the services of this consulting firm. Mr. Spea ker, in co- operation with having government at the table with Lotteries-funded resources to pay for the contract, they have agreed to cover expenses. Mr.

Speaker, part of the agreement was that office space be provided within Health Sciences Centre and within St. Boniface. I believe they were using existing office space which was vacant. There is very minimal, if any, additional cost. Mr.Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, can the minister explain why offices had to be renovated at Health Sciences Centre for the U.S. consultant and why they also need another set of offices over at the St. Boniface Hospital? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, is my honourable friend suggesting that these individuals, who are working within those hospitals to contact staff, to work with

3269 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 staff, to work with staff of all le vels, ought not to be in those hospitals? The only advice I can give my honourable friend, instead of-how do I put this nicely, and more particularly, Sir, parliamentary? Ins tead of my ho nou rable friend running his cam paign of disinformation and false information, maybe my honourab le friend should sit down with the ma nagement of both hospitals and have those questions answered to his satisfaction. Mr.Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, my final supplemen tary is to the same mi nister.

Patients are in the hallways, and she has offices in the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface . Can the mini ster outline to this House how many social workers, instructors and other employees have been displaced at Health Sciences Centre and told they cannot move into office s as a result of his American consultant --$3.9 million plus $800,000 in exp enses-moving into the Health Sciences Centre? Mr. Orchard : Mr. Sp ea ker , I susp ec t my honourable friend might want to have discussions with the Health Sciences Centre:

a) to asce rtain whether his allegations are accu rate; and

b) to be further informed in terms of the parameters of the contract. Mr. Speaker, I want to contrast this contract which was publicly tabled at the announcement with any other contract that, for instance, the NDP got in. When we got into government we found that, horror to horror, they had engaged American consultants secretivel y, without any of us knowing they were engaging American cons ultants. Mr.

Speaker, I want my honourable friend to get beyond his narrow anti- Americanis m and ask himself if he believes that we ought to seek a better way to protect patient care, to provide mo re hands-on care by nurses to patients and at the same time to cont ain and reduce the budgets in our hospital s so that we can provide continued preservation and protection of medicare in this province, because that is the end result of this contract. My honour able friends want the demise of medicare, not its preservation. Provincial Parks Wrist Band ldentlflcaUon Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the acting Minis ter of Natura l Resources. Yesterday, along with the min ister, I was surprised to learn that this government intends to tag visitors to our provincial parks. Under this government, there have been fewer American tourists than in any other time since 1958. My question to the mi nis ter is: How many American tourists does he expect to entice with his new arm-tag tourism initiative program? Hon. Ha rry En ns (M inister of Na tural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, it is, I think, known by most honourable me mbers that May 24, the May long weekend, is a difficult weekend tor our Parks law enforcem ent people to try to keep some handle on some of the rowdyism that, regrettably, occurs. We have in a few parks many thousands of youngsters, many thousands of people, and most of them are very welco me. Most of them are extremel y well behaved, but at ten o'clock registered campers only are permitted back into the cam pgrounds, and the department thought this was a ready, easy and cost-effective way of providing that identifica tion.

I migh t remind honourable mem bers, we all experienced that when we visited the Brandon Winter Fair. Some of us will even remember that when you attended old-tim e cou ntry dances, you got a littl e imprint on your hand if you were going to le ave the facil ity and com e back. So that is what the answer is, and I will make a specia l effort to ensure that this is not meant in any way to deter our American tourists. I repeat, Mr. Speaker, this is not a practice to be carried on. It is for the long weekend in May alone. Mr. Maloway: I am glad to see that the mi nister is now aware of the program. Staffing Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My supplemen tary question to the same mi nister is: Why did the government cut back Parks staff positions if it is so concerned with public safety at the parks? Hon. Harr y En ns (M inister of Na tural Resources): If we can accom plish through different ways and smarter ways of using those resources I -

May 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3270 have to effect the same kind of degr ee of supervision within our parks, then I compliment my Parks people, quite frankly, for finding them . Mr. Speaker, I notice thatthe honourable member still is wearing his armband. Mr. Maloway: I cannot get it off. Mr. Enns: I am reasonably adept at duck calls. I will try my moose call and ask the honourable member to come forward and I will relieve him of that armband. •

(1040) Provincial Parks Wrist Band Identification Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is to the Minister of Tourism, since I am not getting any answers from this mi nister. I would like to ask the Minister of Tourism whether he thinks this will encourage Americans to start coming back to this province. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, after the last reply of my col league, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Enns), I do not blame the honourable member for shifting gears in term s of whom he asks, and it is also interesting, in terms of the anti- American questions posed to our Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), that they are finally showing an interest in our American friends. I do not see this as having a negative impact on American visitors. It applies to anybody going to any of the provincial park facilities, whether they are from the United States or Canada or anywhere.

It is a pilot project as outlined by our Minister of Natural Re sou rces, and if it leads to som e co st­ effectiveness and some protection for people who are enjoying those parks, then it will be rece ived positively. Workplace Safety Course Fee Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, training workers and employers in safe workplace practices, regulations and the development of co mmit tees is essential to reducing workplace illnesses and accidents . My question is for the Minister of Labour.

If they are trying to encourage safer workplaces, why is the departme nt now charging for the courses that used to be free that train people in safe workplace practice s? Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, because they have a cost, and that cost should be borne by the users. It is part of doing business. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, does the mi nister not understand and acknowledge that this will be a barrier to developing safer workplaces and to having people access these courses? Mr. Praznlk: No, Mr. Speaker, our department had a variety of consultations before we did this.

I know it is always difficult to accept a new charge when there is a charge for a service that was not there before. I would point out two things to the honourable member. One is that the entire operation of the Workplace Safety and Health division of this branch is now funded by the employers of Manitoba through their levy on the workers co mpensation system . That is one. Second ly, the charges for these courses are a minimal charge, I believe, for the service that people are getting and ultimately should be borne within the system . Ms. Cerllll: Mr.

Speaker, will the minister co mmi t to reporting to the House any changes in the enrollment and the representation in these cou rses from various employers and employees due to the levying of this user fee? Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Speaker, within the department, courses change from time to tim e. Different organizations, depending on their need, cha nge their use of courses, so that information in itself would not necessarily reflect the point I think the honourable member is waiting to see. I would be prepared to discuss this further with her when we get into the Estimates debate. Osborne House Management Review Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, cu rrent and former staff at Osborne House have said that clients there have been treated unethically. Staff have also said that the way management has treated them is analogous to the way male abusers treat women. These are very serious concerns. They need to be investigated by an independent investigator in

3271 LEGIS LATI VE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1993 order to improve the service to abused women and to clear the reputation of Osborne House. Further, Osborne House is publicly funded, and there needs to be accountabil ity for the public dollars that are spent there. Will the Minister of Family Services appoint an independent investigator?-which he did when concerns were raised about Knowles Centre and Colleen Suche was appointed and wrote a report that was publicly available with reco mmen dations. Will the mi nister do the same thing regarding Osborne House? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, in my mind the YM-YWCA is acting responsibly. It has hired an external agency, the Manitoba Institute of Management, to interview staff, to undertake an issue identification process and to develop a plan for the resolution of these issues. I believe the board of the Y are taking the allegations that have com e forward from staff and management seriously. They have put a process in place to deal with it, and I am prepared to let that process take its course. Mr.

Martindale: Will the Minister of Family Services appoint an independent reviewer, since the current internal review is the fourth internal review after three failed internal reviews failed to cl ear up the problems? The first phase consists only of interviewing staff. Phases 2 and 3 are very vague, and there will be no recomm endations to the min ister which will be made public, which must be done. Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the member essentially is asking the same question for the fifth or sixth time. I believe the board of the Y is acting very responsibly.

These are members of the public who give of their time and energy to provide a variety of services through the Y. We are pleased with the work that they have done over the years at Osborne House. They have put in place a process, and we will let that process take its course. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, if I had any faith in-­ Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Burrows, with your question, please. Mr.

Martindale: Will this Minister of Family Service s not appoint an independent review in order to improve services to abused women and cl ear up the staffing problems once and for all, since the Suche report was set up to inv estiga te and ma ke reco mm endations regard in g child abus e reco mmendations? Does this min ister not believe that abused women deserve the same kind of investigation and reporting and recomm endation-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speak er, as I have indicated, a process is in place.

We also have staff from the department, a program special ist, who has been attending the shelter this week to address the issues that staff have with services. We believe that through the efforts of our staff in the Family Dispute area and the process put in place by the YM-YWCA, they will address these issues. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statement Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Kild onan have le ave to ma ke a non pol itical statement? [agreed] Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr.

Speaker, I am sure all members of the House will join me in co mmemorating this Sunday as the international gathering to comm emorate the lives of people who have died as a result of AIDS and show solidarity with people living with this disease. I attended the vigil last year and found it a very moving experience. It is the 10th anniversary, Mr. Speaker, of the Interna tional AIDS Candle li ght Memo rial and Mobilization. The memorial has been a good way for the comm unity to show their comm itment to persons living with AIDS.

One thing we mus t remem ber is that persons living with AIDS are not victims of the disease. It is a time for us to come together to reaffirm our comm itmen t to education and preventative prog ram s to dea l with the issue s dea l ing surrounding HIV AIDS. As we enter the second decade of the AIDS epidemic, one thing is cl ear. AIDS does not discrimi nate. It can affect anyone. This is not simply a disease of the gay co mmuni ty. Men and women, rich and poor, all co lours, races, -· -

May 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3272 creeds and sexual orientations are living with this disease in over 15 0 countries. Alth oug h Ca na da's estim ate of AID S is com paratively low, this is not a situation which is going away, despite all of our hopes. HIV infects nine million to 11 million people worldwide, including three million to four million women. By the year 2,000, it is estimated that 30 million to 40 million people will be infected with HIV.

By joining forces and working together, we ca n ma intain a vigorous and co-ordi nated effort to reduce the spread of AIDS in Canada and in our province. Through participation in events like the can dlelig ht vigil , we can br ing the spi rit of partner ship to the creation of a supp ortiv e environment for people living with HIV AID S worldwide. It is our job today and on Sunday to rededicate ourselves to the fight against AIDS, to support individual and comm unity spirit that is determined to eradicate our world of this devastating and deadly disease. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Clayton Manness (Government Hous e Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call secon d readings, Bills 33, 35, and then adjourned debate, Bill 19 . SECOND READINGS Bill 33- The Provincial Railways and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Downey), that Bill 33, The Pr ovincial Rail ways and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi concernant les chem ins de f er provinciaux et apportant des modifications corre latives a d'autres lois), be now read a second time and be referred to a committe e of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I have two information packages for the respect ive critics here . In giving second reading to this bill, normally I have had spreadsheets. In this particular case, it is a new bill so I have the back ground information for both the critics so that they can follow up on them .

As I have discussed in the past, the railways are planning to abandon approximately half of the nat ion' s rail network. This follows the lead established by their U.S. counterparts. They claim this is necessary to achiev e viabi lity and com petitiveness. Deregulation, the recession and increasing com petition from U.S. railways and other modes have contributed to the problem. We, for our part, have been assisting the railways com petitiveness bid through successive fuel tax reductions in our last two budgets.

This assistance was necessary in view of the significance of the railways to our econo my. .. (1 050) Accordingly, we conti nue to fight for mai ntenance and upgrading of the central rail network. We con tinu e to op pose in dis crim inate rai l- lin e abandonment. We also continue to press for the introduction of a responsible rail rationalization process , a process whic h will consider all of the costs associated with abandonment and one which will provide compensation to those adverse ly affected by the abandonment of rail lines.

This will include funding to defray the additional cost to the road system when traffic is diverted to trucks from the rail network. However, Mr. Speaker, if Manitoba is to conti nue to be served by rail, the downsizing of the rail network is inevitable. The railways cannot operate uneconom ic lines and remain com petitive in the transport market. As has been the case in the U.S., the railways are concentrating their resources on a core network of hig h-de nsity trac kage .

Communities will increasingly be confronted with a loss of rail service, w hile the provinces and mu nicipalities will experience additional road costs. Although much of the prairie rail network is protected to the year 2000 through Orders- in-Council, this protect ion is being threatened . The 19 87 National Transportation Act enables parties to purchase and operate branchli nes, including those scheduled for abandonment. These independent railways providing local services are called short lin es. The U.

S. experience has discl osed that som e branch lin es can be co mmercially viable whe n operated as short lines. A number of parties have expressed an interest in acquiring and operating branchlines. However, this requires that the appropriate provincial legislation be put in place to accommodate short lines.

3273 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 Mr. Speak er , as an al terative to total aban donm en t, in the interests of prov idin g continuity of rail service in Manitoba as well as preserving rail jobs, I am pleased to introduce enabling-and I repeat, enabling-rail legislation to meet the needs of short-l ine rail operators and shippers. Manitoba is one of the first provinces to introduce short-line leg islation. Others are in the process of developing leg islation.

We have been working with these jurisdictions with a view to harmonizing legislation to ensure consist ency in application and maximum access to the rail network. Consistent with the objective of co- ordination of regul at ion between mo des and avail ing the essential regulatory expertise, the transport board has been assigned the task of regulating short-line railways. My department will have the responsibility of overseeing administrative matt ers related to safety and new short-line rail construc tion.

The act will have appli cation to those li nes acqui red on or after May 1 0 and then only to those lines holding themselves open for hire or reward. The act will not apply to existing railways or private sidings, nor will it apply to amusement rides. CN and CP will continue to be the subject of federal jurisdiction. In dev el oping the leg is l ati on , car ef ul consideration was given to striking a reasonable balance between the shipper and carrier interests. We wish to accom plish this objective with a min imum lev el of regulation and interference.

Accor dingly, entry requirements consist of meeting fitness and econom ic viability criteria which will include a focus on financia l strength, insurability, experience in rail operations and maintenance of a safe railway. Short- line operators will be subject to provincial regulations as they relate to such matters as labour and the environment. The board will have the authority to suspend or revoke a licence if a short-line operator is in contrav ention of the act. Penalties will be applied for noncomp liance of an order. Normal avenues of appeal through the courts will apply with respect to board decisions.

No service would be discontinued without approval of the board, and this will be contingent upon proof of the uneconomic operations for access to alternate, alternative, effective and com petitive means of transportation. Carriers will be expec ted to provide suitable accomm odation for rece iving and carrying the traffic they are required to handle under the terms of their licenc e, including interchange facil ities. They will have the ability to enter into confidentia l contracts with their custome rs.

The board will have the authority to set maximum rates that a railway may charge should such action be necessa ry. (M rs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Shippers who are dissatisfied with the rates charged or the conditions of carriage and have no com petitive alternative may apply to the board to have the matter referred to arbitration. An arbitrator will be chosen by the shipper and the railway and both would share in the costs of proceedings. The arbitrator's decision would be final and binding upon both parties.

The board will be authorized to work with other jurisdictions in settling disputes involving joint rates cove ring their movement of traffic over the lines of two or more carriers. The board would also have the authority on application by a railway to ma ke an order directing the con necting of a line with another railway to enable through continuous movement of traffic. The Lieutena nt-G overnor- in-Council would have the authority to make regulations with respect to any matter covering short-line rail operations as may be required.

The procedure to follow for acqu irin g and ope rating a branch li ne necessit ates tha t negotiations take place with CN or CP for the acquisition of the track. CN or CP then file a notification of conveyance with the National Transportation Agency. Concurr ently the short-l ine operator mu st apply to the Transport Board for a licence to operate. Approval of conveyance by the National Transportation Agency is contingent upon obtaining a licence from the provincial Transport Board.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we believe that this enablin g legislation will assis t to maintain rail service in a number of areas, essential services that would otherwise be term inated. Accordingly, I solicit the support of the Assembly in enacting this bill. Thank you. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. -·

Ma y 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA 3274 Bill 35-- The Fisheries Amendment Act Hon. Harry En ns (M inister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Indust ry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson), th at Bill 35, The Fisheries Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia pec he), be now read a second time and referred to a co mmittee of th is House. Motion presented. Mr. Enns: Madam Deputy Speaker and honourable co lleagues, th is amendm ent to The Fisheries Act is fairly straightforward. What it does is it provides for some great er prot ect ion to th e comm ercial fishermen with respect to th e quota that he current ly has.

We have two fisheries on Lake Winnipeg, which is, of course, our principal fisheries where most of the fisheries are conducted, as well on the Winnipegosis fisheries where we have devised a quota system, that is individual quotas alloca ted to the individual fishermen. What has been a concern to fishermen for some time is th at although th ese quotas and the quota allo�ation system has worked reasonably well, partrcularly on Lake Winnipeg, there has never been any entitlement or empowerment , if you like, in legislation with respect to th ese quotas.

It is simply departmental or ministerial policy, if you like, or a policy of the Fisheries direc tor of the Department of Natural Resources that regulates and that sets up the individual quotas. Madam Deputy Speaker, these quotas are, of course, important to the co mmerc ial fishermen. They can be more helpful to them in terms of providing them with collat eral when fishermen apply to various comm ercial lending institutions.

As it stands, organizations, such as the former Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, which us ed to house th e port fol io of co mmercial fishermen' s loans, now that has been transferred over to th e Co mmunity Econom ic Development Services. They have requested that th e quota entitlement be formalized in leg islation. This is, in essence, what this amendment does. I have the indicat ion from co mmer cial fishermen and th eir organizations that th is will be well received .

What th is will perhaps in the future hold out that on other fisheries where we do not have individual quotas, simply overall lake quotas, and certainly th at covers a number of our northern and le sser lakes where we simply place an overall quota that i� determin ed by the fishery biologists as being a sustainable yield from that lake.

When that overall lake quota is harvested, is caught , then the fisheries season com es to an end. * (1 1 00) The individual quota entitlem ent has shown us particularly on Lake Winnipeg, to be more effect iv� in terms from a management point of view, that is, to provide the kind of supervision to th e fisheries by th e resource people within th e Department of Natural Resources and in specific the Fisheries �e��rtmen�.

Also it of course is viewed by the rndrvrdual frshermen as somet hing of value, in that he has the quota that he has, in some cases, as has bee.n th e case now for a number of years, partrcu larly on Lake Winnipeg, paid money for, purchased or bought . Commercia l fishing is not a growth industry, regrettably. The overall state of the fisheries is in diffic ulty. Our once very prime whitefish th at was internationally known, particularly in th e southern and the American markets, have fallen on some difficult times, both pricewise and there are some biological problems.

The quality, the size of the w�itefish cu �r�ntly being harvested, is meeting with strff com petrtron from a revived fisheries on the Great Lakes, which in one hand, as Canadians, we are encouraged to see because th ere was a decade w�ere we thought th e Great Lakes were virtually dyrng on us because of environmental difficult ies.

Certainly I can report to members of the House tha t th e co mmercia l fishermen who face th e ever-increasing compet ition from fish now being �aught in lakes that 20 years ago were hardly being frshed comm ercially, it is self-evident to them th at the water quality in our Great Lakes has improved �ubstantial�y to th e point th at they are causing our frshermen rn Manitoba some difficult y in terms of price com petition for a similar product .

Madam Deputy Speaker, honourable member s will have an opportunity to discuss the amendment direc tly with people of the Department of Natural Resources, in specifi c, th e Direc tor of Fisheries, Mr. Joe O'Connor. I comm end this bill for their conside ration to the comm ittee. Thank you. Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerill i), th at debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to.

3275 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 Introduction of Guests Madam De puty Speaker: Order, please. I would like to draw attention to the public galler y, where we have with us this mo rning Youth Pa rliament del eg ates to the Western Ca nadian Youth Parliament being held in Winnipeg this weekend under the direction of Keith Berkowski [phonetic] . On behalf of all honourable mem bers, I welcome you this morning. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Blll 19- The Court of Queen's Bench Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam De puty Speaker: To resum e debate on second reading of Bill 19 (The Court of Queen's Bench Am en dm ent an d Conseq uentia l Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), standing in the name of the honourable member for Welli ngton (Ms. Barrett). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam De puty Speaker: Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Hon. Clayton Mann ess (Governm ent House Le ader): Madam Deputy Speaker, would you call Bill 23, please.

Bill 23- The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Amendment, Employment Standards Amendment and Payment of Wages Amendment Act Madam De puty Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 23 (The Retail Businesses Hol iday Cl osin g Amen dm ent, Em pl oym ent Standards Amendment and Payment of Wages Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les jours feries dans le co mmerce de detail, Ia

Loi sur les normes d'emploi et Ia

Loi sur le paiement des salaires), on the proposed motion of the honourable Min ister of Indu stry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson), standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). An Honourabl e Member: Stand. Madam De puty Speaker: Is there leave to permit the bili to remain standing? [agreed] Ms. Mariann e Ce rllll (Radisson): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am glad to have a chance to speak on Bill 23 which is the bill to allow full open Sunday shopping in Manitoba. I think that this bill represents this government's desperation in dealing with the economy. This bill is

an act of desperation. It shows how badly the econom y is failing and how sadly this government is in having any ideas that are actua lly going to deal with problems in the econo my. They are adopting legislation that has a number of problems with it and that they are bringing in legislation which is opposed by all of the key groups that are affected and have deal ings with the econo my. The way that they are bringing it in shows desperation.

The way that they brought the bill in, in violation to our parliamentary democr acy, brought the bill in in what you coul d call a retroactive fashion where they allowed for what they would call a trial, disregarding the fact that the legislation that exists is therefore being violated: and the way that they are doing this without any regard for having public input and public debate on this kind of a major change which is affecting not only our society, but the social fabric and I would say, indeed, our culture. So I have a number of concerns about that as well, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Let us deal first of all with the way that this bill is handing over even more our economy and our very culture to econom ic forces, to the market econom ic forces, and how this kind of legisla tion and the policy for more shopping on Sunday is contributing to a race to the bottom that we are participating in, a race to the bottom to destroy the quality of life in our province and in our country in trying to com pete. This bill is the government's response, they have stated, th eir respons e to the problem wi th cross-border shopping.

There is no information that this is going to help deal with cross- border shopping, but it shows what Conservative governments are willing to do to try and deal with these kind of econom ic problems. It shows that there really is not any concern or understanding or well-tho ught-out analysis of what is happening with the economy, and that there has been a difference in Canada and in Manitoba where we have had Sunday as a day where people cannot have consumer business done, where they can spend time with their friends and family, devote the day to home life rather than business and consumer deaiings. -· -

May 21, 1993 LE GISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3276 The effect that this is going to have on the econom y is actua lly going to be negative. There is not going to be a benefit to the econo m y. The cham bers of commerce have said this. The Union of Manitoba Munici pal ities has said this. The Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers has said this, and virtually all the rural municip alities have said that this is going to hurt rather than help their econom y. There will not be more jobs created. There are not going to be more jobs creat ed.

People are not going to have more disposable income to spend on Sunday. In fact, it could more encour age people to spend money that they do not have. Ac tually, it is going to have a negative effect too, because it could create more part-tim e work, which will actu ally then decrease the take-home pay and the total wages of workers in the retail and service sectors. All of these things are a partic ular problem for workers in those areas but, even more, it is a problem for women, who tend to make up the majority of the sales clerks in the kind of businesses that are going to be forced to be open.

This has a double negative effect because, not only is it going to force those people to work when they perhaps would prefer to stay home with their family, but it is going to take them away from the day when most people reserved time with their family. I would hazard a guess that the majority of women who are in those sectors, a number of them will also be single parents. So it is creati ng a variety of problems for those families in having to provide alternative care for children who are now faced with another day of not having their parents there for them.

That is another problem that I would say that this government probably did not give too much consideration to. The bill itself claims that there is going to be some protection for these individuals to not work, to refuse going to work, but that is going to be very difficult to enforce.

We have heard over and over again where workers are threatened or they feel threatened that they will lose their job if they in fact do co mplain and refuse the scheduling of when they are slated to work on Sundays. * (1 11 0) Now, this presents a number of problems where it again gives employers another club, if you would, to wield in the race to the bottom that we are involved in which has had an effect on making workers more and more vulnerable in the face of having a chance to maintain a job and maintain some kind of security in the workforce.

With the econo my, it is a lot easier for employers to not have any problem with having workers le ave their job when there are so ma ny people unem ployed. It is much easier for them to use that threat or freedom that they have to have so ma ny more people waiting in line for those jobs. One of the big concerns that I have about this kind of legislation as well, as I said at the beginning, is the way that it is handing over more and more control to market forces. It is ma king our society and econom y more consum eristic or more consum er driven.

I think I have referred at times before in the House to a study that was done on Canadian leisure that showed that the most often partici pated- in leisu re activities in our society are shopping, television and gam bling, and I think that this leg islation is only going to encourage that. I think that is a problem. I think that the kind of econom y that we have created that encour ages overconsumption is only going to be exacerbated by this kind of legislation, and we know that consumerism and overconsum p­ tion have devastating effects on the environment.

It is a co mbination of how people are watching more television, the way that advertising on television encourages them to purchase and buy, and that this is not only taking away from the more positive and active parts of our culture in the form of arts and other sport and recreat ion act ivities, I think it is also cont ributing to the way that people are giving over their sense of what kind of society we want to have, to market forces. This has a lot of implic ations for our society.

Now, the other problem that this has created is it has created a lot of chaos in some of the retail outlets where I have had concerns expressed to me fr om some of the stores and ma lls in my constituency where there have been dispu tes between the various outlets, some wanting to close down and others not wanting to close down, or if the stores want to close and the mall is feeling pressure to remain open. So this is another problem where it has created this kind of conf lict within the retail sector.

This is a conce rn where we want to have some kind of co-operation and good busin ess relations, but ther e have been these kinds of disputes created .

3277 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 I think that it is also not helping the whole issue of cross- border shopping, but it is making the problem worse for rural areas where the border to cross for cross-border shopping has become the Perimeter Highway, and on Sunday we will have more people leaving their home rural com mu nities to com e and shop in Winnipeg. This is going to draw away even more from rural life. We already see the huge effect that advertising, mass me dia and television have had on rural areas.

This is th e kind of le gislation th at is going to encourage th at rather th an discourage it. It is going to draw away from developing the rural co mmunities and th e ru ral econom ies that are suffering greatly under th is government and in th e economy. I talked about how this is going to not creat e any kind of econom ic benefit. I think the government should be gett ing th at mes sage. I want to speculate a little bit about why th ey are cont inuing to do th is. I th ink it is part of the attitude that they have when they will talk about how they do not want to tax anymore.

If you look at how the econom y is failing and we look at how the tax burden has shifted and how now more and more individuals are paying for cost s of government and that there is less and less of government revenue being paid by industry and business taxation, the logical conclusion of this th at we are reaching more and more quickly is, very soon industry will not be paying any cost s of government and individuals will be paying the full burden and cost s th rough taxation.

This is helping them fulfill their agenda of slowly being able to cut services and slowly reducing government and th e role of government in the economy. lt is like they are going at this from both ends, slowly being able to erode governm en t servic es and slowly er oding government's role in regulating the economy. This is an example where government has had a role. Government has had a role in trying to shape the effect th at consumerism and the ma rketplace has on our lives.

By reducing further that role of government and by allowing for Sunday shopping, it is another way that they are taking away the role of government and allowing for ma rket forces to have a greater and greater effect on dicta ting our time, dictating how we spend our lives and how our society is shaped. We received a number of calls and lett ers from a variety of groups opposing this.

It is not often th at you see th e kind of consensus across the board between labour, between cham bers of com me rce, between church organizations and other co mmunity organizations opposing something , but that is the kind of opposition th at this legislation has.

It has such widespread opposition, I think th e government should be concerned th at again they are offending and going against the wishes of what often have been th eir supporters. * (1 12 0) I go back to the point of how they mus t be very desperate if th ey are willing to do th at, and it is a sad state for th e province if th is is the best they can do for econom ic policy. Madam Deputy Speaker, th is is a sorry excuse for econom ic polic y.

Not only is th is legislation not doing what they th ink it is going to do but, as I have said, it is affect ing our social fabric and our cultur e in a way th at is a concern to many people. I look forward to when we will have this bill go to co mmitt ee. It is going to be interesting to see how the government is going to deal with facing that huge opposition from all across Manitoba, from all regions of the province, from all sect ors. We are going to hear a variety of perspect ives of how this legislation is going to harm the economy and not help it.

The small business sect or, I th ink it will be important to hear from them, because we know the small business sector is crea ting th e most jobs in Manitoba and this is th e kind of legislation th at is going to be most hurtful to th e small-business sect or. They will just not be able to co mpete. It is going to act ually cost them more in wages and cost them more in heating and lighting and other utilities and having to open for that extra day perhaps than they will be able to generate in business. That is the kind of consultation I wonder if this government did.

I do not know where they would have gotten the sense that th is is going to hel p small business. The kinds of letters and calls that we have been getting to our offices do not indicate th ey feel that th is is going to be a benefit.

I do not know if th ey have had any kind of analysis- we have had this practice going on now for a number of months-if there has been any kind of polling or research or consul tation that has been done to see if th ere has been any benefit so far and if at the end of October there will be some chance they will change their mi nd, that they will admit this has not had a benefit to the econom y and th ey will choose to not cont inue with th is pract ice. - -

May 21, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3278 It is going to be I think difficult to measure the side that is of concern to me, the social side that I have been talking about. I do not know if those kinds of things are very easy to study. They are not. It is not easy to study the effect of not having parents around for one other day on the weekend, what kind of an effect that is going to have on families. It is only in the long term that we will see those effects.

We hear often how more and more time is spent by young people sitting in front of the tel evision and how that is exacerb ated by the increase in the kinds of television that they are watching and how, as I said earlier, the kinds of programs that they are watching are supported more and more by advertising that is tied in with children's programming and how that might ma ke young people put even more pressure on their parents to go out and buy products that really are not necessary and contribute to this kind of overconsumption and consume rism that is affecting our province and our society.

I think I could not emphasize enough though the way that the government has turned to bringing in legislation that is retroactive. This is just one of a series of bills that the government has introduced this session which is not respe cti ng our parliamentary system here, which is not respecting Manitoba's unique approach to having public hearings before le gislation and changes are made. We are seeing this also with the socia l allowance changes.

We are seeing it with the Manitoba Intercultural Council bill , and we are seeing it with Sunday shopping where they are ignoring the existing leg islation and they are withdrawing funds or changing funding without having it debated in this House before those changes are made and without having the public given the opportunity to ma ke representation about th eir thoughts and their opinions about the government's actions that will show the government the effect. That is not a good trend. That is not the kind of direction we want to see a democratica lly elected government go.

We would want to see mo re account ability, not le ss accountabil ity. We would want to see them respect the responsibility that they have to be accou ntable to the people in Manitoba. So with that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that there are a number of very good reasons for opposing this legislation. There are a number of very valid concerns about the le gislation, the way that it has been handled, the effect that it is going to have on our econom y and our comm unities. I hope that the government is still open to considering the serious cons equences of the legislation.

I hope that the trial period ending in October will indeed be just a trial period and that they have some mechanism in place to evaluate the effects of open Sunday shopping and that they will be accou ntable with that study and evaluation and that we will , indeed, have some fair consideration of the com ments that are going to be made at the hearings and the co mments that a variety of member s have made in the House. I know that I am sure that the number of rural members across the way are hearing strong opposition from their elected muni cipal officials and residents in their co mmun ities.

I would just hope that they would listen to those reco mmendations and those appeals because I think we do have to look at econom ic policy not just in a bottom-line fashion. It is not just about balancing the books. We have to look at how our econom ic policy is affecting our la rger co mmunit y and society and how it is affecting our culture. With that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank you, and I will end my remarks. * (1 13 0) Mr.

George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am pleased today to rise on Bill 23, because I think it is appropriate tim ing because this is a long weekend, and this is usually the weekend that families gather together and either go cam ping or take a day and go on a nice family picnic. If you look at this bill that is being brought before us here, that is exac tly what it is addressing is what is happening to families.

What happens to families that have teenage sons or daughters who will have to work this Sunday, that if they do not, their hours will be cut back, and the family will likely go cam ping or on their picnic without one or two family mem bers. That is one of the problems with this is that it has taken away from the whole value system of a structured fam ily.

We all know that with our schedules almost every family unit in Manitoba, with the hectic schedules that we all lead in this day and age, you work all day, you come home, you have supper and either you are visiting with friends or relaxing and reading and then your teenage children are away with their friends and doing their own sporting activities or drama or whatever have you. When you have a long weekend, and if you have the opportunity to go camping with your family, you are all together, you share ideas, you share concerns and you get a chance to talk to your children and

3279 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 they get a chance to talk to you in a more relaxed and fun atmosphere. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, if a child has a part- time job at SuperValu, Canadian Tire, Safeway, what have you, and if they are asked to work on Sunday, you know that they pretty well have to say yes, because the more times you say no the less hours you will have. That is what will happen. When we talk about this legislation st imu lating the economy, bringing more businesses into Manitoba, we tend to forget that part of Manitoba is also rural and northern communi ties.

When I was looking at the bill and I saw in the bill where it said that this also will fall under commu nities that are part of the Northern Affairs jurisdictions, I almost laughed when I saw this, because in my experience in northern Manitoba in those Northern Affairs com munities there is no Safeway. There is no SuperValu; there is no Canadian Tire. Most of the stores that you have in Northern Affairs communi ties, if they want to be open on Sunday, they can adequately do it with four people in that store, very, very adequately.

When they brought this forward I do not know what the government was thinking about, because the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) has been in a lot of those communi ties. He will tell you that there are no big stores there . The biggest store you have in a commu nity is a Hudson's Bay Store. To keep it open with four employees would be no problem at all. The current legislation that is in place where it allows four employees at a time, if they wish to be open on Sundays, is very adequate.

If you take a look at your other rural commu nities that choose to be open on Sundays, if they choose to, with this current legislation they are not in competition with Winnipeg Eaton's store, Hudson's Bay, the SuperValu stores, the Safeways . What you have in the rural communi ties and in northern commu nities is mostly family-opera ted businesses. Now what this government is saying is that we want you now to work seven days a week, because most of those businesses are operated by a family member with very little outside help.

How can you expect people to continually work seven days every week and to have an adequate family lifestyle? I think it is ludicrous. I think it is doing more harm to our rural commu nities and to our northern commu nities than this government ever thought of. If the rural membe rs were able to check in their own com mun ities and ask their mom- and-pop oper ators and their busi nesses in the ir communi ties, they would not get all the support that they figure they have, because that is going to have a direct impact.

It is going to take away from some of the businesses the dollars that they bring in to barely make it from year to year to year. What will happen? We will have more little businesses that are adequately feeding the family, looking after the family's needs forced to close. That is very scary, because a lot of those small commu nities, if those businesses that are run by the individual family member s are forced to close, there is very little opportunity for employment elsewhere. We talk about, this will stimu late the economy. How can you stimu late the economy if you are implementing taxes.

They say, no taxes, but it is taxes. When they talk about, they have more disposable dollars, we have a senior, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is now forced to pay a minimum $75 on their property taxes. That $75 would have probably gone to purchase something from one of those stores. Well, that is being taken away. How are you stimulating the economy by all these cuts? An Honourable Member: George, what does this have to do with Sunday shopping? Mr. Hlckes: The reason you want Sunday shopping is that it will create more busi nesses for the businesses to stay open on Sunday. You can stay open ali you want.

If the customers do not have disposable dollars, how can they go to the stores to purchase their goods? That is the point. It is a very serious point, because when you have taxes on baby foods that will drastically affect single mothers, that the family of that single mother will now have to pay for disposable diapers and baby food and even school supplies. So when you take that amount of dollars away from most single women who do work in retail businesses, when you are taking those expendable dollars away, how can you be bringing more businesses to the big companies that this bill is trying to assist?

It does not work. If you do not have the dollars, you cannot spend it. It is as simple as that. Also, when you look at businesses opening on Sundays full scale, the majority of the people working in those businesses are women and the majority of them are single parents. You are telling - -

May 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3280 these single parents to work on Su ndays, but is there adequate daycare available for these single mothers? Has that been addressed? Has that been looked at? I do not think so. I think this was an idea that was ill thou ght out and was no t really impleme nted properly, because we had a very adequate bill . You were allowed four employees.

So if you were going to go to SuperValu, Safeway, Canadian Tire, Eaton's, The Bay downtown, most of your consumers thought twice, because they knew that if you go there, you are going to have the hassle of a long lineup with very little help. So what did the people do? They would go to your corner grocery stores or your corner stores if they were open.

Some are open 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but those are small operations, where if you lo ok at you r mu lti nationa l corporations , your multina tional stores and stuff, the volume of goods that they trade through , they are bringing in businesses about $500 per hour per employee. Your mom and pop operations and your corner grocery stores and your small family businesses, they would be very fortunate and happy to do $50 per hour per employee. So who is this really helping? Is this helping the independent small grocery stores, independent family businesses?

It is taking away from those types of businesses that relied mostly on their ability to generate revenues on the weekends and evenings. * (1 140) Also, the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) should be very aware of this. It says in this bill that you have the right to refuse to work on Sunday. That is good to see that printed here, but how effective is that going to be if you know that the businesses are the ones that control the number of hours that each employee works.

So if you are a business person and if you ask an individual to work on Sundays over and over and they keep refusing, normally what will happen is that there will be some reason found so either that individual will be dism issed or that individual's hours will be cut back. We have seen that with various students who have had the opportunity to work in small restaurants or in fast-food places. Any time that they refused hours too many times, their hours were cut right back. That is what is going to happen. You cannot fault a single mother that wants to have a Sunday with her family.

You cannot fault that, because as long as I can remember most Sundays have always been for family times. Even in my own life, I attend functions on Sundays when I am invited, but most of the time my family comes with me. That is our time togethe r. This weekend we are hoping to get away for the weekend . Our family is all going. We are all going to have a chance to be together. My son, because of the nature of our work and of the hours that we all put in, the late hours and the weekends-! would like to spend more time with my son, but it is very, very difficult. So Sundays are usually our family time.

So if I was employed at a retail outlet, and if I was forced to work on a Sunday, that would be taken away. Like, we have the opportunity here where we can take our family with us to functions and gatherings and meeting people, but it is impossible for a person working in a retail outlet or a restaurant or fast-f ood place to take their children to work with them. That would not go over too well, I would not imagine. So those are the kinds of things that we are removing from families, we are taking away from famil ies, and I would really, really like to hear the Ministe r of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) when he speaks on this bill. Because, like I mentioned earlier, Madam Deputy Speaker, I cannot see how this has any impact on any northern comm unity, on any Northern Affairs co mmuni ty. I do not know, you go to Cross Lake, you go to Sherridon, you go up to Grand Rapids, you go anywhere in the North, those are small businesses that are operated mostly by local people. The only com petition most of those northern comm unities have is, I guess now it is call ed Northern Stores. So I cannot see how this bill helps those northern co mmunities.

When the minister has the opportunity to speak, I will be listening carefully, because I cannot see it. In the comm unity where I grew up, in the co mmun ity furthest north in Manitoba, in Chu rchill, we have two grocery stores. The one used to be the Bay store. It is ca lled Northern Store now. The other one is the S & M superma rket, which is a family business that started years ago, and when they were able to open on Sundays they had four employees . It was very adequate.

The people that did not want to stand in line, there is a little corner store that used to do a lot of their business in the evening and Saturdays and Sundays. That is where they made their profits. If we had massive openings that are available to these co mmunities and if they were fully staffed, what are we doing? We are taking businesses away from the small independent stores that had been passed from one generation to another.

3281 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Ma y 21, 1993 I wonder where the memb ers from the rural commu nities are on this issue, because I cannot see how they could stand up and support this bill when it is going to affect their own constituents. It will have a drastic impact on their own constituents.

If you open the mu ltinational stores in Winnipeg to wide-open Sunday shopping, what you are going to be doing is attracting people from the rural surrounding commun ities that will come to Winnipeg to do their shopping, where normally they would spend those dollars in their own communi ties to help their local economy. That will be removed. What kind of an impact is it going to have on those commu nities? It cannot be positive, because a lot of those communi ties that I am referring to are, what, an hour's drive from here? So families will come to Winnipeg to do their shopping.

Sure it might benefit some of the big multinational stores here in Winnipeg. It might benefit them, but they are already bringing in revenues of $500 per hour per em ployee versus $50 per hour per employee by your small independent stores. How is that fairness? It cannot be very fair. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Is that the whole idea of this bill, to see how many small retail outlets in rural Manitoba this government can force to close?

I think that is silly, because that is exactl y what is going to happen. [interjection] You talk to your chamber of commerce in Portage Ia Prairie and they will tell you, do not support this. They do not support this. We have met with the municip alities of Manitoba, the representatives, and they say, we do not support this. The chambers of commer ce do not support this. When they say that it is going to have a negative impact, how is it going to be positive for the community of Portage Ia Prairie if the citizens are driving in to Winnipeg to do their shopping?

The meeting of the munici palities was a resolution brought forward not to support this bill. That is from the rural commun ities. That is from the mayors and the councils of those communities. That is not me saying that. That i s the ma yors and the com mun ities. The mayors and the communities have stated very clearly, we do not support this because it is going to have a negative impact on our commu nity businesses.

If you do have those hard-earned and in a lot of cases few expendable dollars in those comm unities that need those dollars to stay in their comm unities to survive, being brought out to the big city of Winnipeg, it cannot be positive. I cannot see that. [interjection) You argue with the mayors and councils. Do not argue with me. They are the ones that made that statement. * (1 150 ) Well, you are talking abouttax bills, you know, like hundreds. The reason I raised that question today was exactly to do with tax bills, because I have got hundreds and hundreds of calls from seniors.

They are saying that our taxes have gone up on their property and those dollars that I am spending now to pay the increases on my property taxes could have been spent probably at Metro Meats or one of the small corner stores, where a lot of seniors will go and buy their milk and bread. A lot of seniors really do not want to take a lot of long trips. They might come uptown on a very few occasions, but most of their shopping for their milk and bread and stuff is usually done at corner grocery stores.

So when you look at the impact this bill has on small businesses, I do not care what anybody says, it is not pos itive. It is regressive for those communi ties, those small businesses, and even the impact it has on workers. A lot of your retail outlets that em ploy part-time workers are usually from universities or colleges or high-school students. A lot of our te enage fam ily mem bers get the opportunity to work at these stores and stuff, which is great. I have nothing against it; I think it is a good idea.

But if we start increasing the number of hours that are open, we are increasing the num ber of hours that those children are being away from their families. An Honourable Member: They need the money. Mr. Hlckes : Well, sure, they need the money. We all know that. We also need family lives, and we talk about this bill saying that we will not force people to work on Sundays. When you force people to work on Sundays, that is exactly what you are doing. They say, well, more people will spend more money shopping on a Sunday.

I think what you might find in a lot of cases is that same dollar is stretched over a longer period of time. A Jot of times that same amount of dollars a family spends shopping, whether Sunday is included or not, will be very, very similar because a lot of families only have - -

May 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3282 so many dollars available to purchase goods and that is it. Once you take away the rent and utilities and car payments and your mortgage, you only have so many expendable dollars. So I do not believe there is going to be a big rush to purchase appliances and furniture and everyt hing and it is going to only be done on a Sunday. I do not think so. I think if a family needs appliances and have the money to purchase it , it could be purchased either on a Monday evening, Tuesday or a Friday or even a Saturday.

So I do not think that is going to increase businesses that much. I know from the meetings my colleague from Ain Ron (Mr. Storie) had pertaining to this, and the letters we all received from co mmu nities, mayors and councils in opposition to this bill, that the rural co mmuni ties are not being listened to. The rural comm unities will not have a chance to be heard, and that is what they want. So that way, when a member states that my co mmuni ty, I have not heard anything negative and you are wrong in your statem ent, well, let the mayors and councils of those comm unities have the opportunity to be heard.

They are the ones who are making these statem ents that this is going to be regressive and it is going to be very disruptive for families and also it will not benefit the rural small business people. That is the letters that we have received from ma yors and councils throughout Manitoba. So let them have the opportunity to be heard. I think it is only fair. We are having a standing committee here in Winnipeg. How many people will be able to present their cases, their issues, their concerns from those rural co mmu nities that are sending us hund reds of letters? How will they be heard?

So that way, when a member says in the House that you are wrong, my co mmuni ty supports this, then they can pass the information on from their mayors and councils, because the mayors and councils are elected by the people to represent the comm unities that they are elected from. Even if you are an MLA for that comm unity, the mayor and councils are the ultimate individuals who have the responsibility for progress in those co mmun ities.

When you have a lot of small co mmunities, it is the mayors and councils that decide what by-laws will be implemented, what by ­ laws will be brought in, what by-laws will be changed. It is not the MLAs that do that. So I think that it is only fair that those mayors and cou ncils from those rural co mmuni ties are able to have the chance to be heard. I think they would welcom e that. They would welcome it. The only way they will be heard is if they com e to Winnipeg. A lot of them cannot come to Winnipeg.

If we have any faith in any legislation, we should have the faith to take it out to the co mmu nities for the comm unities to be heard. If the support is there from those co mmunities, you will hear that, but try to make it as acces sible, try to make those hearings as accessible to the people whose lives will be impacted by this bill. Why is this government afraid to go out into the co mmu nities? Why? An Honourable Member: George, did you ever hunt whale on a Sunday? Mr. Hlckes: Oh, any day will do, as long as you are around. [interjection] Paul McCartney would be very proud me.

Anyway, when you have co mmuni ty leaders that are writing letters to us, and my colleague the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) can verify that he has received hundreds of letters, hundreds of letters from those co mmu nities, why not give them the opportunity to state their case. Maybe they will all come out and support this. I do not know. Maybe they will. Let them have the opportunity to be heard. Even the impact in northern Manitoba, there will not even be a hearing in northern Manitoba. There will not even be a hearing in any of the rural co mmun ities.

They say, yes, those co mmu nity leaders will have the opportunity to be heard. What happens if an individual from Thompson or The Pas or Cross Lake want to be heard? Do you know how much it will cost that individual to try and come to Winnipeg? An Honourable Member: 50-som e cents. Mr. Hlckes: 50- some cents-on a stamp. Write a letter. I am glad that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) stated this, because it shows the knowledge that he has of a lot of these northern remote comm unities. A lot of the individuals cannot read or write English, so what are you going to do?

Are they going to write a letter in their own syllabics? Who is going to read it? That is a very ill- thought- out comment. A lot of the meetin gs that are condu cted in nor the rn Manitoba, a lot of those rem ote co mmu nities, you even have to provide a translator

3283 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 to make sure that the communities understand and the mi nisters understand . • (1 200) An Honourable Member: George, if it is so hard for them to get to Winnipeg, what makes you think they will come and shop here then? A little contrad ictory , are you not? Mr. Hlckes: Well, some people will come here. The member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) raises an excellen t point. He says if they cannot afford to come here for the hearings, how could they come here to shop. The ones who can afford to com e to Winnipeg to shop will come to Winnipeg to shop.

Normally, the people who can afford it, who have the extra dollars, would stay back home and shop in their own home comm unities. We are talking about expendable dollars, not dollars that you need for your basic fridge and stove, your basic food for your families. When a lot of the people com e to the city from the rural comm unities, they will be buying suits, they will be buying clothes, they will be buying appliances because they might save a few dollars. They have the expendable dollars for these goods.

That is taken away from the opportunity of that hardware store in Gimli or Beausejour to make a few dollars from that individual that has the expendable dollars to buy even a new colour TV. They could have purchased it in Beausejour or Gimli or whateve r. Yes, they might come to Winnipeg because they have extra dollars. So that takes the opportunity of a business person from that co mmuni ty to make a few dollars. I am glad he raised that point. It was an excellent point. That is exactly the kind of thing that will happen. That is who will be com ing to Winnipeg.

Those are the individuals who will be spending their dollars out of the co mmuni ty and spending them here in Winnipeg. When you have basic needs, a lot of those goods are needed by the families and they will purchase them Mon day to Satu rday. Sure, they mi ght purchase them on a Sunday, but most of the time that is not the shoppers that--1 have not been to a store on Sunday, but if you go to the stores, you go to Brick's, hardware or fur niture plac es, the appliance places , the car dealerships, you know, and that is the time those people who have the expendable dollars co me to the city for big purchases.

No wonder Eaton's or The Bay ma ke about $500 per hour per employee, no wonder, because those are expendable dollars. The small corner grocery store, if you make $50 per hour per employee they are very happy, and that is about what they average. So, do we really want to take that opportunity away? I do not believe we should. The other thing is, when you talk about this whole bill, you know, we talk about leadership here. If the government has so much conf idence and so mu ch faith in this bill, why are they now saying, well, no, we will not impose it on people?

We will let the comm unities, by co mmu nity, make up their own minds. If they want to have Sunday shopping they can, if they do not they do not have to. If the re is so much confidence in this and so much support from the rur al co mmuni ties and the northern co mmun iti es, wh y a big tu rnaround? What happened? I do not know.

When the bill was first introduced I thought that the government had the su pport of the rural comm unities and northern co mmuni ties and citizens and the small business operators and the chambers of co mmer ce, the mayors and the councils of those co mmuni ties and the chief and councils of those northern co mmuni ties. That is why they brought that bill in. I thought they had check ed it out and maybe had some discussions over the phone or the rural members had meetings in their own constitu encies, in their own co mmuni ties and that the comm unity had supported it.

Then a few months later we see a whole switch. It says, no, no, we are not goin g to im pose this. Let the mu nicipalit ies make up their own mind. So is that leadership? You know, if you are going to be a leader, take some onuses and lead if you really believe that strongly about it. We talk about creating mo re jobs, but the government misses the whole point. The highest number of jobs that are created right across Canada are created by small businesses. So if you take that opportunity away from the small businesses that do create the majority of employment opportunities, what are you doing?

You might gain two jobs and lose four. Is that progress? I do not think so. So where is the thinking on this? I will give you a good example. I just heard a member say, what about the Jobs Fund? I will give you an example about th� An Honourable Member: This is an antijobs fund. -

- May 21, 1993 LEG IS LATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MANIT OBA 3284 Mr. Hlckes: I will give you an example-this is an antijobs fund. But they said, what about the Jobs Fu nd? I will te ll you som eth ing about my experi ences wi th the Jobs Fu nd un der our government which we introduced. It was called the Northern Youth Corps, Northern Jobs Fu nd. People say, well, it created opportunities for cleaning up streets. What this government fails to recognize is that those Jobs Fu nd jobs were the only, only opportunity for a lot of aboriginal youth in Manitoba to try and make a few dollars throughout their summer breaks.

If you go to any of those northern reserves and northern comm unities this summ er when the children are out and see how many are actually working, cleaning up your ball diamonds, cleaning up your co mmuni ties, working as assigned by the mayor, the chief and counci ls, and the Metis co mmunities by the mayor and councils , you will see very, very few of those youth working now. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Ac ting Speaker, in the Chair) Under the Jobs Fu nd, you can go to almost any nor thern co mmuni ty un der the Pr og ressive Conservatives at that time and under the NDP, you found a lot of youth that were working.

Under the Jobs Fu nd, they even had recrea tion opportunities. They had northern swim programs, and it employed a lot of the northern youth that do not have the opportunity now. So when they talk about the Jobs Fu nd, I am very happy to talk about the Jobs Fu nd because I saw it first hand where the northern aboriginal youth had opportunities. If you go to those comm unities, there are not hundreds of restaurants, hundreds of stores that these youth can have the opportunity to make a few dollars over the summer either for their spending money or to buy a few nice clothes and stuff like that.

That is a fact, and if you know anything about northern Manitoba, you will know what I am talking about because in those remote comm unities the opportunities are not there. If you look at what has been taken away from a lot of our youth in northern Manitoba because of the cancellation of the Jobs Fu nd, you will see that the recreation opportunities for the children of those comm unities are next to nil right now. So what is happening?

If you look at the escalation of those co mmu nity probl ems , you will see, yes, there is mo re vandalism ; yes, there are more sniffing problems; yes, there are more children creati ng problems in those co mmuni ties. Before, their time used to be occupied in a very, very healthy way. That has been taken away because of the cancellation of the Jobs Fun d. If you asked any northern leader, they will state exactly what I am telling you now.

So that Jobs Fun d, you can knock it all you want, but I have seen the positive benefits it has impacted on northern Manitoba and our northern co mmunities. * (121 0) Anyway, getting back to this bill here. I think it is only right to have the rural comm unities heard, and it is only right to have at least one hearing in northern Manitoba so that the northern people have the opportunity to be heard. I see I am out of time so I thank you for the opportunity to put a few words on the record . Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwo od): Mr.

Acting Speaker, I am very pleased today to speak to Bill 23, the government's second version ofthis bill, the second attem pt at dealing with this issue and that seems to be indicative of this government. It sort of reminds me of someone on the road without a road map. I do not think this government or anybody in it has a clue of where they plan to be in the next couple of years. I think that what we have over there is essentially a caucus in crisis. They have members defecting on them to the federal area.

We have another member who may be going to the Senate very soon, and I have always suspected, we have always known that Brian Mulroney was not a fan of this Premier (Mr. Filmon), and I think he may be showing it now. He may be having the last laugh here as he sinks the Manitoba government on his way out. It may be his lasting con tribution as Prime Minister of this country that he brings down the Tory government. Mind you, one never knows where and when and how history will unfold. We cert ainly have some experience in that area ourse lves, Mr.

Acting Speaker, so it is cert ainly reasonable to expect that a similar type of fate could befall the caucus opposite. We look with some degree of interest on what is happening over there in the caucus. The Rubik's Cub e, I guess, is one way of describing the Conservative caucus. From day to day, we see it take on different forms. This particular bill, when it was announced the second time, appeared to some to be a cute way out of a problem that the Conservatives were having.

I think upon looking at the bill that what the bill purports to do is turn over the question of Sunday shopping to the mun icipalities to sort out. That may

3285 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 have temporarily solved the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the government's problems in this regard, but I think it is only a very, very temporary solution, because what I see here is essentially a blueprint of the Balkans. What we will have will be jurisdictions within the province bordering one another, one having one policy on Sunday shopping and another having another. I recall a few years ago, I believe it was outside the town of Steinbach, where a hotel was built.

I believe the town of Steinbach was a dry town at the time and probably still is, and the entrepreneur built the hotel just outside the town limits. What we may have here will be little development zones sort of similar to the Maquiladora in Mexico, little development zones here and there bordering a jurisdiction in the province that does not allow Sunday shopping. We may have its bor dering constituencies allow Sunday shopping and all sorts of little stores and so on being built right on the border. It does not sound to me as though that will be a very well-thought-out and well-planned ending to this bill.

That in effect is what is happening. This provincial government was elected to make decisions on behalf of the people of Manitoba and, by shirking its responsibilities, by turning its responsibilities over to the municipalities, who by the way do not want that responsibility, they will essentially in the end create this patchwork quilt which nobody in the province will be happy with in the long run. So at the end of day, I think they will regret having taken this road. Mr.

Acting Speaker, there are many, many arguments that have been put forward by members in this Chamber supp orting both sides of this question, and our particular side has brought forward arguments which are opposing Sunday shopping. I might say that I was one of the MLAs who did a survey of his constituents on the question of Sunday shopping, and I can tell you that by far the majority of my constituents who responded are opposed to the idea of Sunday shopping. The Uberal Party, on the other hand-1 think there are 15 sleeps until the convention and then it is a permanent sleep after that.

The leadership hopefuls are not in our midst at the moment, and I was kind of hoping they would be. It took an awful long time for me to tell them that there are no delegates here. It took literally weeks and weeks and weeks. Finally I see they have taken the advice and headed for the hills in search of delegates. That leadership race is getting I guess a little heated up now while the delegates are out there. The point is that the Liberal Party, its little caucus of seven, could not come up with a consistent policy on the question of Sunday shopping. I believe the Leader, the memb er for River Heights (Mrs.

Carstairs), was in favour of Sunday shopping. The member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) was not sure what he was going to do. I believe he was in favour and then he did a survey of his constituents and then he went against. The member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) actually made the most sense here when he offered a reasonable sounding amendment to the process. The point is, this caucus of seven and dropping could not get its act together on a bill such as this. I do not hold out a lot of hope for the political longevity of the Liberal Party in this province.

As a matter of fact, I am not even certain that they will run into the next election with four members. There is no question of having four members out of the next election. The question is, will they have four members going into the next election. Having dealt with the Liberal Party, I think we have to get back to the serious question here of dealing with this government and its fundamental instabilities that we see across the way.

I believe that the caucus of this government, before it came to a conclusion as to how to deal with the Sunday shopping question, had some serious problems that it had to face within its own ranks. I see members opposite here who must have had a very difficult time in caucus agreeing to and then toeing the line and going on with what is essentially a very destructive move to businesses in their own constituencies, because the small businesses in the small towns are the ones that are going to suffer by this move that the government is making.

The businesses that are going to benefit by this move are the businesses in the big towns, the big cities like Winnipeg and then again the big businesses within those areas. I will tell you, it is no accident that the Chamber of Commerce in Winnipeg is promoting and pushing this concept. The Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, on the other hand, is opposing it. I think the members have to think long and hard before they vote on this. - -

·� May 21, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3286 Another observation tha t I have is that the government brought in an initial bill to allow for a trial period. There were many problems that we pointed out associated with that. It seems to me that at the end of the day one could not draw a conc lusi on as to whether this Sunday shopping experiment had been, indeed, succe ssful. We had co mpanies such as Advance TV in Winnipeg, a major retailer in this city, deciding regardless of what their competitors did to shut down on Sundays. They just said it did not make sense at the end of the day.

So I think there were enough examples of retailers like Advance in this city where a consensus could not be drawn. I do not think anybody on the other side could convince me that there was a consensus here that the retailers want Sunday shopping, not when we saw the somewhat negative reports that cam e out about the participation in the malls. One would have thought, because of the hype and the buildup that the Sunday shopping bill got, that the mall s would have been filled with people.

What we saw, particularly going into January and February, was that retailers were being open, retailers were suffering through the increa sed overheads of keeping staff on Sunday and the sales were not there. They were sitting all day and making little or no sales, and in fact the sales they were making were sales that they would have made in other days of the week. *

(1220) Mr. Ac ting Speaker, it is not possible to have a better retail sales picture in the province unless you are to increase the wealth of the people and increase the disposable inco me of the people who are going to spend money in the stores.

If a person has a mi nimum wage job or has a $1 0-an-hour job or earns $25,000 or $30,000 a year, they still have only so much disposable income, and curren tly they are spending their $10, 000 or their $20,000 in the­ if you look at the statistics in this countr y you will find that over the years people have had a very easy time spending what they earn already. (interjection] The member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) tells me he is listening, and I am very pleased that the member and I can ca rry on this dialogue in the House uninterrupted by the other members of the Legislature.

I understand I have the rapt attention of a future senator and acting Minister of Natural Resources. The point of the matter is that what we have seen in the econom ic statistics in this country, Mr. Acting Speaker, is that people have got themselves into such a tremendous debt load over the last few years that they do not have the ability to spend themselves out of the recession. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. The decor um is starting to lack a littl e bit, gentlemen, if we could just bring it back in line.

You all have an opportunity to join in this debate at a future time, but at this time I would like to hear the honourable member for Elmwood. The honourable mem ber for Elmwood, to continue, please. Mr. Maloway: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. My point was that over the last few years, if I might try to make it again, people have got themselves co llectiv ely as a society into such a ma ssive debt situation that in fact people do not have the money to go out and spend more than they have even in the five days or six days we had to spend.

So adding another day or another series of hours to the amount of time that people can shop is doing nothing more than adding to the overheads of the busin ess comm unit y. I think the Manitoba Ch amber of Commerce can understand and can see that, and that is one of the arguments that they use for not going to wide-open Sunday shopping, because people are just not able to spend. If you increase people's disposable income, if you increase a person's disp osable income from $25,000 to $35,000, then consumer spending will increa se. But that is not happening and particularly not with this governmen t.

This government is driv ing this econom y into the ground with its taxation policies­ (interjection] Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) is attempting to get me riled up once again here, and I am not going to permit him to do it. I was thinking earlier this morning that mine might be the last question that he takes as the dean of the House. I do not know that that will be the case or not. He may have another question on Monday or Tuesday. I am very pleased to have been the member having first run into the member back in 19 71 when he cam e very close.

Some would say he should have won the leadership of the Conservative Party way back in those days. He lost a very cl ose leadership race in his day.

3287 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1993 I do not know what kind of a Premier he would have been. I am glad we did not stay around to find out. I was supporting my leader of the day and a very good Premier, Ed Schreyer. Nevertheless, the member was elected here in 19 66, and he suffered through that Conservative Party all those years and all the things that they did to him, and I am sure he did a few things to them, too. I am sure it all evened out in the end, but he has had a good time.

As mu ch as I do not think much of the Senate and Senators and so on, I think that if anybody is to be appointed to the Senate out of that caucus, I would think that he would be a very appropriate choice. If, in fact, the rumours are true, I really do wish him well in Ottawa. I do wish he would stay on top of his departm ent's programs for at least a little while longer that he is here. Mr. Acti ng Speaker, I realize I only have another two or three min utes, and I do have certain ly enough material here to finish up the full 40 mi nutes.

I know I will be getting another 20 minutes in the next day, but I am being admonished by my temporary House leader here that I mu st continue. I cert ainly intend to do that. Mr. Acting Speaker, we have dealt partially with the question of consumer spending, that the consumers do not have any more money to spend. We have dealt with the whole question of the silliness of turning this whole issue over to the muni cipalities who are going to set up a patc hwork quilt in this province. We now have to deal with an area that I get a lot of response on and that is the area of rest for families, a day of rest.

Particular ly, in my area I have a Mennon ite Brethren Institute there and I have a lot of people who are religiously inclined and who are very concerned about this issue. I have had people signing petitions up at Pen ner Foods on Henderson Highway. I have had my surveys sent in from people in the area.

We have had a considerable number of people who have voted Conservative, who admit to voting Conservative in the past, who have said that this is wh er e they draw the li ne wi th this Conservative government, that they feel that this government is hel ping in a way, and they are very surprised that this government would do something like that. But this government is trying to or helping to what they see as destroy and dismantle the fabric of society as they have grown used to it over the years.

I do not know tt- .at this particular bloc of voters are-1 cannot guarantee that they will be voting for me in the next elect ion. I would like to think so. I do not know that they are permanen tly deserting the Conser vative Pa rty. It is signi fic ant that this particular bloc of voters are very irritated, very irate at this government right now.

This government is getting the heat from enormous amounts of people in their own co nstit uencies, in their rural areas, from the busi nesses in their areas who are very concerned about what they are doing, and they seem unconcerned about what this is going to do to the fabric of society and people's quality of living. It is not only their supporters. I dealt for a moment, Mr. Acting Speaker, with their supporters, their support base. I want to deal with people who do not identify themselves as Conservative voters and the response I am getting from them .

A lot of people are telling me that the y are already up to their ears in the rat race. They have a job that they go to. They have kids to take care of. They are working full time as it is. To now have to work on Sundays- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. When this matter is again before the House the honourable member will have 20 minu tes remaining. As previously agreed, this ma tter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan. This House now stands adjourned until Tuesday next at 1 :30 p.m. - -

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, May 21, 1993 CONTENTS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS APM Management Consultants Chomiak; Orchard Reading and Receiving Petitions Provincial Parks Wheat Board Barley Marketing Maloway; Enns; Stefanson Wowchuk 3262 Workplace S