Volume 1 PROVINCE .OF NEWFOUNDLA1'11D THIRTY-sEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 14, 1976 Number 64 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

}!ay 14, 1976 Tlw Jlouse met 11t 1n:no .\.>·. }lr. "peaker i.n the r.hair. Tape 2700 MTS'·'l\1'~ T0 nnF.!'TTflNS F!11' ~lHICH NOTTC'l\ HA~ BF.EN Cil'EN: 0 0 0 IB-1 ~'T'. SPEfJ<Et': I aw not ~ure now if the hon. Minister was retting up for the previous routine or<;ler, for an -\nswer to Questions For l.Thteh ~lot:lee Jlas Been r:lven? i'W. PFCKI'Or>D: Yes, }'I'. Sl'EAKF.P: Hell lv:l.th leave the hon. gentleman eould g:lve the answer. I',(P. PECKFOPD: Yesterday the hon. gentleman asYed me about the - Jn faet it Has the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (}lr.

Powe) al1ot1t the business if a citizen lived in one col!1JIIunity, worked in another community and had some relationship with a third coMmun:lty 7 " di~ he pay taxes in all three municipalities? ?1_!. ROivF.: No, in the other two. yv, PFC.KFORn: Other two. He has to pay service fees. It depends on the kind of tax you are talking about though. As it relates to service fees he has to pay where he resides which e~empts him from paying where he works. But if he has property in a third he is also subject to the service fee. So he would pay in two of the three.

On water and sewer rates if he has a home where he resides, whJch I assume he would,and he had property connected or unconnected re eould be ]:fable for payment,obviously,if it is eonneeted. Even i.f :l.t is unconneeted. The same l•Tay in the third community where he Tl'iP:ht have had property he ~10uld have to pay water and sewer rates if l'e had property there. So that :Is the answer to the quest:l.on. Of eourse if it related to pro~erty tax the same thing lvould apply depending upon t,•herP he had the property, If he had it in eotnl!1unity 'A' and community r"l•e ••ould pay on the value of his property.

In co!T!II1Unity'R'..._mere he is workinp;, of eourse ,J deduce from that that he does not have any property there, he just works there so he ~rcould not he paying anything there. 7752

., l"ay 14, '976 Tape 2700 IB-2 ''1?.. S!'E.\KE" : The hon. Hinister of Fin;mce. ~ '1' .• OOODY: Yesterday in Question Period,Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for LaP oil e (''r. Neary) asked some questions referring to the Fishery Products-government consolidated agreement. I undertook to get sol!le ans1•er for h:lm today. A copy of the document is here which I wi.ll table for other members of the House who may wish to look at it. HR. NEAIIY: ffil • OOODY : I think the bon. member has a copy of it. The contract on }<arystown too? No, I do not have that with me. I can get that for you J~ter on.

I can get it for you tomorrow. The Marystown one is not here. Thi~ is the consolidated agreement. I thought that was the one you were referring to. I ..at both. 'MR. NEARY: t'R. DOOTW: ~ut some of the questions that you raised are deserving of answers because it is just as well to set the record straight. This agreement in effect consolidates all the previous agreements that government has held with Fishery Products that date back to 1952, an incredible number of various agreements. Most of them are very low interest rates.

Last Winter When the fishing industry was at the bottom of its cycle, Mr. ~peaker, at least we hope it ~~as at the bottom of its cycle, the Fishery Products found tpemselves in ~ very difficult cash position and they were pretty ~1ell on the rockR. They neerled an additional $2 million in their bank J ine of credit. The bank refused to permit this wi.thout government involvement. I·Jell the cleeision by government was to pemit the $2 million 3narantee on the condition that $3 million 1:'£ the $4.8 million- 7753

May 14, 1976 IB-1 ,.,. M!ARY: The llinieter 1a the boy to aet at the bi& .aaey. NP. DOODY: - on condition that the $4,8 million loan to Fishery Products Limited be converted to preferred six and a half per cent voting shares which is, I think, a tremendous ~provement over the original hodgepod~e. The remaining debt of $1.8 million,approxirnately, remained. However the terms of that l~ere altered to include a more rapid and a m.ore definite payback period. The interest rate was r.llisec1. froll' the three and a half per cent,which it then was,to ei~ht end a half per cent.

This means in effect that government will receive the same interest incoii'P- from the $1.R million as it would ha~ received from the $4.8 million under the olc1 arrangement. Also gover!Uient are tnto a much bP.tter position now becsuse when t~e company will be able to pay r1iv:!.c1ends l-Ye will have t\te six and a half per cent preferred shares on whic·h we will get the dividends. The government have taken an eC!uity position and is also in a pos:l.t:lon to get a return on the hoped for profits of the company.

The Depart~ent of Fisheries and the nepartment of Finance have been working very closely wi~h Fishery Products during the past year sortin~ out the shaky financial structure of the company and tn reorganizing the company. ~. NEARY: A point of order, ~r. Speaker. 1~. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. ~. NEARy: I am trying to pay attention and hang on to every word the minister is saying but there is an awful rumble from this corner, Sir. T cannot hear the minister, what he is saying and t want to hear every word. ~.

SPEAKER: The hon. gentlemen then who are making noise should govern themselves accord:lnply. !-1-R. DOODY: The Department of Fisheries and the Department of Finance have been working very closely with the company and as I said yesterday He have two members of governuent on the management committee and UYo members on the board of directors. The managemept committee of the company meets pretty well on a wee~ly basis and the ~ 775~

~ay 14, 1976 T.Rpe 2701 IB-2 ~IP.. JJO()DY: hoard of directors obviously do not meet that often. But it is the managel!lent committee 1-1ho are effectively directing the operations of the company. There is a represen .tative of the Department of Finance and a representative of the Department of Fisheries on both the board and the management committee. Fisher y Products Incorporated,which 1s the sales and marketing and processing division, the American situation, agent of the company, is a subsidiary of Fishery Products Limited and it is owned approximately two-thirds by Fishery Products Limited.

So that in effect the Government of Newfoundland in owning forty per cent of' over forty per cent of the parent compan.y here has the effective control of the AmeTi'can company the same way because the American company is two-thirds owned. }ffi. NEARY: ~fuat percentage of the shares are now owned by this government? ~. DOODY: The Government of Newfoundland now has a little over forty per cent, forty and a half per cent of the parent company shares now.

But probably just as import~nt is the fact that we have the right to call on other shares should the company get in a more difficult position or should it default or should it run into problems. We can call extra shares to give us complete control rather that the effective control that we have now. l' e have no d1.rect involvement in Fishery Products Incorporated, the American company, but as I said frr•m the part:l .cipation in the parent company we have effective participation. nationalized the company in the ownership sense. We have not But government is very actively involved in the company.

In bailing it out at the time th11t we did we d:l.d it in a way that would give us a say in the operation ~f the company as well as an opportunity as I said, to raise the interest rates from the unreasonably low three and a half per cent to a reasonable ei~ht and a half per cent area which gives us that same return tbat we would have gotten plus the other benefits that I outlined . 7755

, . .., 1(., 1976 Tape 2701 IB-3 '" · 'l"'liW: -- --- - So, It i ~ really quite a good docul"ent anrl quHe a ~ C>ocl nrrce ent. It saved at a very crucial til!'e C>oe of the major - ''1'. NrAPY: The ·~'aeystown one I want to :se.e. t~el 1 the ~·arystown one is a good nrrangell'.en t too. Tt fs a f.irst cl. as~ arr:mgement and one that we are very happy with an d I vould be only too happy to b1:iny , the detail in on that. I •:lid · no have time between no1.1 and the t:lme thAt you aske(l the question. ''T' '!f:,\ nv: n .j (I yo• I sencl for i th:l.s 1110rn1np.? •p. 110(11)\' : l·'ell th~y ~re working on i t now.

They 1.1Ul b rio~ it ro~~ to me as soon as t~ey re t :It whether you _et it torlay or wheth er nut T have no h~s:lta on tn hrfnpinr t t fo rt h. 1 f they get t ·r, •arly I w:!lJ certainly pass it over to· you. Rut 1 rl,o not th 1nV. I 111 l get it this morn :l n r. but 1 wiJ c:ertai .nly !:ave it hy 'oni'ay. Jn. :my e vent, ns T say, 1~e have "" hesitation in. tabling 1 . 't- ,,re nu te ple, se t! wi th it and I t hink the Prov:lnc:e :Is - - -~~ffi:.:.;\:.:.;A~T'..:.Y.:.:_ If it 1s that goo4 a doc1111ent wbat is the reason ~he lld.nister d.id not table '1>. nnonv: ''1>. ?iEARY: ' :t> . fl0Q1"iY: it?

There fs no reason to table it or not to table it . It ~~y eli~ ynu not tabJe it bef ore. . nre t>'e do not hr:lng d01Nll. al :J. the documents in the t1Ppnrt ll'ent llnd r ut thell' nn rhe tab l e. We ('.an 1 f you 1 H·e but you "'out r' nN•<' n 111nch 1 <trp,~r t ahl e. C'lrder, please! Tbe hon . "iini.st~r of Provincia . Affairs, 'r. Speaker, 1 would like to jus t ext en <'I a li~ tle on the Answer to ~ ques tion I p.ave t he hon. ll'eJI1ber for LaPoile ( •r. Neary) & 7755

l-'ay 14, 1976 Tape 2702 IB-1 ~. 1-'lJl!.PHY: yesterday w1th reference to the Goulds waste disposal site. For some time discussions have been going on in that area, Sir, to phase out a waste disposal site at Bay Bulls. our department in consultation with various ~embers in that particular area, particularly the mayor of the CouldsJhad. come up with a plan to establish a waste disposal site in the form of incineration on the Shoal Bay Road about a mile and-a-half inside the main road for which we were seeking funds from the Treasury Eoard which were approved following which the mayor of the Goulds was notified.

In the letter we set out certain stipulations they must follow if this thing is going to be done to follow the law. On April 26 this letter was returned to my department signed by the mayor of the Goulds agreeing to all the provisions set 1n and all the rest of it. So when I said yesterday I was quite amazed at the uproar, I do not know where the - 1!1' .• NEARY: There was no quorum in the council, at the time,then was there not? ~~. }qffiPHY: I have no idea. All I am saying is that MY department did what it always does under the law.

If it is an 1ncorporated area we c~nfer with the ceaaeil or with the aayor naturally. who is the speaker. MR. NEARY: There were only three co~c111ora oq the council at the t~. MR. MUPPHY: Yesterday we phoned the Goulds to find out after the question had been asked.- I contacted my department- the town clerk had no idea of any meeting being called by council. So possibly - we know the meeting was held - but all I say is that the Department of the Environment followed all the rules and regulations prescribed by law to get into this particular area. ORAL QUESTIONS: ~~R.

SPEA!CF.J!: The hon. l!lember for LaPoile. l'll'. NEARY: !~r. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the hon. Premier in connection w1th a statement the Premier made outside the Eouse in connection with the work stopping on the transmission line and the tunnel. I.Jould the Premier indicate if the dewinterization and all the contracts that have been let, are they are going to be cancelled? ... 7757

"ay t4, l'J7fi Tape 2702 IB-2 ·~. 'IF.Al'Y: 11"111 the rovernment p11y the penalt:les to get nut of some of these contrnc:tSI thilt have heen awarded, both bi~ antl sm~tll? ~That is the situation? Phen w:IJ.J the work end? Hhen w:lll all the work stop? "'r. ~l'l\Ali'J:": The hl'n. the Prender. PPF.}!TER }'OOPES: To'j rst of all, ¥r. Speaker, there has been no :mn01mcement that the work on the transmission line and tunnel is ending. ~ven :In this ml'rninp.:s paper with the headline that stU! cHd not take that f'OS:Ition.

The fact is that there is always the ] lkelihood that thts can happen especially ~vith negotiations with nuebec: and the fer!era1 s>;overn!'lent not mov:lng as quickly as we would like. It iR. :1 <lt>c:lsicm that could happen, as T say, and one which we •.•til he Horldnr very hard at the next week to try to identify just '"''tat stepr. ~JC should take at this particular t:lme. nut other th11n th11t the qnest:lon by the hon. nember, f.:lr, ,,•as not accurate. ·~. NE\~Y: "r. Speaker, a supplementary. Hould the Premier e]ahornte em the invnJveJ!lent hy the federal governl'!'.ent?

I can under­ stanrl the Onellf'c pnrt l'f :It but what does the government expect from "tt;:w:l in the , •• ay of assjstance. tltere? Hhat is the Premier looking for '"'· SPf..\lrEr>: Th e hpn. the J>rel"ier. T'T'T\l'1.F.r ~IOOPES: Well the situation is, }'r. Speaker, that until we h:!Ve an arranrement Ni th Quebec there is absolutely no point in !uwinr. further ll'eetinr:s with the federal government. ~oveml'!ent are not slowing . the procedure. ''T'. Nr;:A.'I'Y: The whole thing h:lnges ar01md nuebec.

The fetleral PRF.~fiEP ~100RFS: Other th11.n that ~lithout agreement with Quebec there :IR noth:lnp: the federal government can ilo to assist anyway because we have to have the power and the sale of the excess power. J, Rupplementary, Mr •• Speaker. Hould the bon the Pr~,.,; er then :lnrl:l caee if the government will continue to call public tenders anc1 m~ar<l cnntr11cts, for which they have to pay penalties to get out>of ~~h:lle the whole th1.nf!' is,up :l.n the air,in slings? Tl1e hon. the Premier. .. 7758

.lay 14, 1976 Tape 2702 IB.-3 _p=-·:::RE:::MIE=::.:Rc:......:l!OO=.;.;I!.E=S.:..: __ No, Jolr . Speaker, as I said we will be working on it in the next week ani! we will be taking our position after that. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde . MR . RrnOE: ~r. Speaker, the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) basically got into the sallie questions I wss about to ask: But I would like the ~.ini11ter of r-<ines and Energy and the Premier to ensure the House that they will report baclt to the House on the results of any negotiations with Quebec and/or the federal government following such meetings rather than having to pick up tidbits in the p.aper and possibly in an effort to try to get information jeoparcii,ze any ongoing negotiations? Would the Premier and the Minister of Mines and Energy undert(lke to report to the House before anything is leaked or given to the media? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. ' 7759

"ay J4, J'17fi Ta pe No. ?.7'11 Pir : ~t nf all, as thC' hon. mt>mher says, these tt-1h1t" are alu.1.ys v.'lrinus attitudes the press take, they art> ah1ay,-; stnt<'MPntR that nay have some innuenc1o in thel'l. I ussurP•1 thls :rouse before when any r.tajor position has been t:1kcn or M.a i0r ne~otiat:ton have been cone] uded, the House, of c0ur.sc-,if ir: ,-,;cssian,~ri~l he the first to knm~. '·<P- . S!"l'AK!'P.: ~he hon. merbcr. for Trinity nay de Verde. ~ ·r.

S'>C'ah•r, T. have a question for the HinistPr of !'rovinci.al Aff;,:!rs <Pl.d Fnvironment or Innustrial Develop~ent 1 1 mn not surC'. \>hich "'inister, hut could the minister indicate to ~ · >hol'l penpJ e turn or rna!· ~e representat ton tc> in order to have the car wrcc.ks around the Province cleared from nits or from nlnnr, the s:ldes of roads. '-rn. ST>EAKF.'R: Tht' hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and F.nvirnrunent.

T presume if there is any accumulation of it in :tl" incnr!"oratcd area the council would h('. responsihle for 1->r!.n:cinr, th!'r tc> :1 t'Cntr.al point and !:hen contacting my department no"' ~>'ith rc>!';an1 to the taking away.

Or incorporated areas I nrcsum"' if they clir1 r1rop notes we could have - there are many dozens over there no'' that '"" are try~ng to r,et top.:cthP.r. 'But T thin! , th.Jt 1muld hC' s;mpliest wav and then they would direct the cr:'1u f "r"V t0 t-~hcr.:-ver t 11e outf.l.t are work:!np.: at the tfme. _'m_._. __ r~-'~-· _: __ rontact the ~inister's department. 'l'P,. 'l!T!WHY: T t'I-J:f.n1:. it ~muld be best to r'irect it to the ''R.

RnT.)fo:: Coulr1 thf. minister tndi cDto?, Sir, what cn"lpany or ,.,,~n:tTl.es :J.rP n.o1-1 cc>ll r,ct~nr, t'1ese cars anc1 the financial status :l r ~ ·, ~ company hec:tu>;e T a'l\ hearing some weird and wonderful <;t.orl."" nhnut t11c functi.Gninp, or the functionability, shall I r; . .,y . n f th:tt 11nrti.C"ulnr c.omnany. '"'. '!'"RT' TIY: The cnmr:1ny is A~.And ns far as hearinP. weird

~lay 11,, 11')7li Tape No, 2703 N'l - 2 ''R. ~ni"Rl'IIY: f:tnT'lf'S , T hear them and I -cead them, I just finished l.uc'cy T.uciano which was the weirdest story T ever read. But we hear all these things and as far as 1 am cor.cernecl t can only give the hon. nember the information that I possess. If anybody has any problem, not only with car workers with washers - MR. RO~~: ~~at is the status of the company? ~:R . 'lEARY: Heard a!>flut the final days yet . 'It. "11U'!IY: 1 !lave not had a financial statement from this company. They are a private company.

Once they f,reak thr. contr.lct thf'n government will deal 1ilith them and rhnt is a 1 l I C<'ln say. !'R . Q()\-)'f: Are they <;till working to the satisfaction of the ~ovr.rnmcnt . :~ . r.t'l'l'l'V: As far 'IB I !mow they are now removfns cars from 0ctaeon ~rrm to thr. A ~erican pier for shipping outside the Pt:ovtncc-. <;:~ t urrloy . T'1at is tht> laf't J)ro~tress report l had up to last r~e h~ . nel'lher for P.agle river.

" 11 . ~Tlli\C!'fl'l: The l!nu:;e Leailer indicated yester<lay that r>ossibly t !ll' '':ln:lst"r o E Touri!l"l 1~ould he in a position to state or 1ntl< c.1tc ~·' ' "t'•cr he ._.,-; nrr.r>ttre<:l to r E>view the Wild Life Act :~ o; It npr l t,. s to l .:~"r:~do r and ~o.-hether he would be !lrer>ared to ""t ur nn >~dvisory board or a coltiJ'1ittee or somet hine to re\v·rite t'l<> Act "" • : r.r" 'H!I'tly stanrls . I ~~onder if the minister would hP prenar cJ to co:m:~cnt on that . ''TI . sm:AlT": no:rv : "'~<" ~l<'l" .

"in is tar of Tourism . .. r. 'lpt>akar , ~'c are always nrc>pareC: to review the Wild Life Act for Labrador or indeed for any other r egion of t"P !'rciVirca . T am not quite clear as to what some of the real problems a r e the hon. member referred to and unfortunately I •·::': not her<' yesterday afternoon . \\it'l rC!~ards to the f!'.atter he raised earlier I have chncke<l wtth the :;taft' in my d<>pnrtment and I am told, confirming 11hnt I indicated to him at t!\at time , that th<>rf' h11s not been ~ 7761

.Tun<' t", 1~7F Tape No. 271)3 ''n. IITCKrY : :uw direction or any orders to enforce any secti , n of t'H! Wild Life Act in Labrador or in any other '~:ty other t han the Hay it has always been considered necessary to enforce. So as far as I am concerned cr.rta i nly ''e arc t>repared to review the Wild Life Act 14i.th rer.nrd!l to tlle rcgton he refers to "nd if t here i.s anythin n wr. c;m do 1dthout jeot>ardizing the wildlife ,;nc-ctes, whi.chP.ver one he mip.ht be referrin n to, certainly '''e are prepared to look at it. N'f - 3 llll.

Sl'E!IKF.R: The hon. m~~ber for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Burin - Placentia. •m. NEARY: l'r. Speaker, I would like to put a question to tile Hfnister of f orestry and ~riculture about a very serious st:ttent>nt that has been made that the producers, the broiler pr~lucers in this Province :trc ~issing the big market and that out of 250,1)Qn r ounds of b~oiler recently that fifteen per cent was not f :l t to sell to the take-outs in Newfoundland. Does the minist c.r have a comment to make on thi!l? What is the situation O:\ t ·d:::? 1162"

}'ay 14, 197fi Y~ . S1'E EP: }'P. T!OUSSEATT: 'rape 2704 IB-1 The hon. Yinister of Forestry and Agriculture. I rlo not know if the proper word is not fit to take out. The broiler users or the people who use the broilers, the take-out chicken ud so on, wtiat birds that are - I think it is fifty-one days or fifty-two days, of a certain ti.me period in which they must be within a certain weight category, two and-a­ quarter to two and a half pounds in that area - I think the problem is sometimes there is early placement of the birds.

You know four or f:l.ve or s:l.x days on one of those small 'tlirds might mean quite a hit more weight . T do not th:l.nk it :l.s a matter of not being ~it to e".t it :! s a matter of not being suitable for the broiler :l.n size. ~ffi. NEARY: Are they bought hy the Prov:lnce? No. Then they are sold. They are probably sold as a head-on special at a supermarket across the Province. But, you know, the proper working is not that they are not fit to eat. The size is too big to satisfy the take-out area. T-Ie have one ._,hicb we supply all the birds for.

The other one wa are negotiating hoping that we can break through on them too. But I think it is very important.

We have had to speak to the broiler producers over the past three or four or five months on this part:l .cular issue and explain to them the importance of the weight distribu~ion within that specified U.mit for consumpt:l.on by the take-out people because once it goes over that - naturally the bro:ller producers, of course, want to get as much weight as they can on them because more ~~eight means more money but they have to keep within the range that is requested by these people but they are otherwise united. AN RON. t1E ~ 'BEF: }!R. P..OUSSEPU: MR.

NF.ARY: ~lary Brown wants to keep her legs small. t'ary Bro¥->n wants to keep her legs small. ft supplementary question, ~!r, Speaker. Would the minister indicate to the House if he has in his possession a report done by a private detective in connection with Newfoundland Farm Products and if so would the minister tell the House what that report .. 7763

Nay 14, 1976 Tape 2704 !B-2 ~~. NF.Al>Y: was all ~hout and what action was taken on it? MT~. ~PEAY.E!!. : l"n. POUS~EAU: hands. The hon. ~!j.nister of Forestry and Agriculture. The minister does not have that report in his ?~. NEAPX: No, in his department. t'll. ROUS~EAU: I will take that as notice. Farm Products have a hoard down there and they run ~ ~'ll. NEAP,Y: l.Jell does the minister know about the report? }'1?. ROliSSEAtJ: I have heard of the report because the hon. member mentioned it before but I have not seen the report, no. take it as notice and I will check it out for you.

But I will The hon. member for Burin-Placentia. ,IF. SPEAKER: "'R, ~ING: !>'r. ~peaker, I have a question that could be directed to the ~inister of Industrial and Pural Development. When I was rising I intended to direct :l.t to the hon. Premier and I "Till now have to direct it to the House Leader. First of all is the government aware that there was a further notice given to eleven men on the shipyard at tiarystown two days ago, and if the hon, leader could tell me if the govern~nt anticipates further layoffs at the shipyard at Narystown? t~. SPEAKER: The hon. Ninister without Portfolio. ~IR. WELLS: !-'r.

Speaker, I will bring the question to the attention of the hon. ?~inister of Industrial Development and if there is a further anS"~oJer requ:l.red he 'Jill give it. !'R. SPEAKER: The hon. ~mber for Fogo. CAPT. \I'INSOP.: A quest:lon to the hon, ~inister of Fisheries. Could the minister tell the House if there is now any compensatlon paid out for gear lost last year or what date was the cut-·off because I a .m ~etting enqu:!.ries and letters from fishermen who lost gear and they s~y they have not been compensated? they cont 'inuing to pay out? Is there a cut-off now or are MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. !-'inister of Fisheries. 7764

~ lay 14, 1976 Tape 2704 IB-3 ~. . W. CART.E~: Mr. Spe~~;ker, as the hon. members knows ·there is no ongoing progral!ll!le of compensation for par losses. But m he knoWs as well ·we are working on a programme which we bope wUl take care o.f that problem. We hope to Jilake the 8l)tlOUllCement wit'hin ma:Yb.e a month or two. 1"R. SPEAKER: ~<Jl . STRACI1AN: The hon. member for Eagle River. r . Speaker, I a~ having difficulty getting my point across.

In reading the ministerial statement of A:llrll 30• I was absent when. it was made, could the minister explain whether the 'II!OOse and caribou license require!!lents given in the statement apply to the whole Province ()r only to part of the Province? ~m. SPEAKER: The hon. 1Unister of Touris11! .• MR. ·HICKEY: ~r. Speaker, th~y apply to the whole !rovince with the exception of an area where there are special considerations given such as the area my friend refers to. Obviously those regulations would not refer to the area where a person can taken eight caribou. Thi.s is for all other are;ls of the Province. MR.

STFACRAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In 7765

••.-,v Jll, l 971i Tope No. 27ns ''1~. ~TH/.CilAN: the same statement then the m:!.nister states thcrc> ts a ban nn the takine of black bear which is used ln thC' North by pecple for eating. Does this annly to the whole "~>rovincP. or only part of the Province? The han. ~inister of Tourism. N'l - 1 ~ m.. SPEAKEr.: "ffi. lliCKEY: If there are special considerations, Hr. Speaker, required for the area my friend refers to then certainly we are nrepared to take that :lnto account, I have not had any tnd:lcat:lon that it cUd not apply to the whole Province.

If he is telltnp; me now that ~here is a special requ:lrement with regards to his area then certainly we are prepared to sit down and look at that and see what might be done or what is necessary. I might say with regards to the statement applying to the whole Province, the situation with regards to poaching and the penalties as announced certainly would apply to the whole Province and all species, ~. SPEAKF.R: A supnlementary.

MR, STRAC}~N: I think the point I am trying to get across is that in his ministerial statement it applies to only part of the T'rovince and yet in the same ministerial statement wiChout elql.lanation it applies to the whole Province. ~R. HICKEY; No, no. MR. STRACHAN: Would peonle then find themselves charged in Northern Labrador if they took black bear meat in the SprinR of the year, under the ministerial statement? MR • SPEAKER: The han, ~inister of Tourism. "'R. HICKEY: The first statement, Mr. Speaker, dealt with the method of licencing and so on.

That applies to the Province ·~hc>re there are no special consinerations. ~y hon. friend ts ~rell aware that in Labrador North, what used to be Labrador North and is now Eagle River,there are special considerations. A family may take eight caribou, obviously that 7766

'1ay 14, 1976 Tape No. 2705 NM- 2 lt"P.. HICKEY: first statement did not apply to that area. The second ministerial statement dealt with penalties and quotas and so on. Obviously that does apply to the Province with regards to penalties. Now he raises the ~tter of the black hear ann I am simply saying to hin there was no qnestion addressed to me, nor was there any clarification hy my staff with rer,ards to a

section of the Province heinp; exempted. If hP is now telling us that there is a narticular problem there then certainly we will be glad to look at it aml do wh:'!tever is necessary. l'fR. SPEA..'<E~; 'l'he hon. member for LaPoilP. followed by the hon. member for Bellf"vue. HR. ~lF.ARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the 'finister of ~l ines and F.nf'rgy, Sir, about the future of the Linerboard !!ill now that there is more downtime. How much more downtime is there going to be at the Linerboard 1'-~ill this year? What is the future? What are the markets like?

And when are we going to get a detailed report in the House on the Linerboard mill operation? NR. SPEAKER: lllR. CROSllJf.: The hon. Minister of ~ines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, the down-time announced yesterday for July was already mentioned by me in the House several weeks ago. From the start of this present fiscal year it has been planned that there would be a period of down- time in July and what was stated yesterday was simply reaffirmation of that,in ~ny event. As to what will happen during the year this is going' to depend upon the marketing situation entirely. ~-NEARY: ~~at is the market like now? MR .

CROSEIP: It depends on the marketing situation. Now !,ahrador Linerboard does not market in the US because of the <!ifference in price between TlS, European and other world market. The market is not improving at the moment as we had 7767

Tare No. 2705 NM- 3 ''R. CROSBIF.: hoped it: would. Prices are still not increasing in Vurope. So this is goin~ to depend upon the European recovery, ~'lhether the market will improve later this year, as we have hoped, or not will only be known as the year p:oes on. So the orer.'l -tional plans for the Linerboard 1>fill wlll depend on whether they can sell the product at a pric:e that at least recovers their cash cost. And that is :ill really t can tell him on that.

The shutdo'lrn period for J1,1ly was one that was contemplated and has been for the last sev¢raJ months, Whether there would be any other downtime will dnpend f'urely and simply on markets, As to the other part of his question, I think that we can debate the Linerboard Hill in the present debate and I think there will be another opportunity to debate it,in any eventldurin~ this session. ~fR. NEAitY: What will be the oc.casion, Mr. Speaker? Supplesnentary, would the minister tell us what the occasion will be? rm. CROSBHl: Well the hon. gentleman will know when• MR.

NF.ARY: A supplementary question, S.ir • lllould the m!nister tell the !Wuse then wt.ere the wood will come from for the J.inerboard 11111 this year? How much will be cut on the Island! ·How much will be cut in Labrador? What part of th~ Island operations will be shut down completely ·by the Linerbo ·ard Hill? 7768 ,.

tfay 14, 1976 Tape 2706 IB-1 MR. C1'0SBIE: Mr. Speaker, as far as wood procurement for the Linerhoard !-fill is concerned,as I told the House earlier in the session,because of the downtime last yea~ and we continued on with a full woods operation last year, there is now a heavy inventory of wood. Labrador Linerboard has a large inventory of wood. Of course with a large :Inventory of wood you have a tremendous mnount of I!Xlney tied up in the ~10od inventory.

So it is not necessary this year to cut or purchase as much wood as would otherwise be the case because they have a large wood inventory which they have to reduce. We cannot have tens of millions of dollars tied up indefinitely in the wood inventory. So the wood production or the wood procurement this year will be much less. Now I do not remember the exact figure but it is certainly considerably less. The company is not going to operate its own woods camps at Southwest Brook and Fox Island River.

The Labrador operat:l .on will be continuing and the Labrador operat.fon has to continue because, you know, with two ships to carry wood down vou have got to have wood for them to carry down. You cannot cut back the Labrador operation. So the Labrador operation will not be cut back in any significant manner. In addition to that we will be purchasing wood from wood contractors on the Island. Now I do not remember the exact total that will be purchased this year.

It is going to be considerably less than last year because, as I say, we have got a large inventory of wood because last year the mill had a lot of downtt.e. There was a three month strike and the wood is there and now the wood has got to be converted into linerboard. HR. NEARY: A supplementary question then, Hr. Speaker. Would the minister then tell the House if the Linerboard Mill is going to shut down its operations on the Island? ~~at will happen to all the camps and all the equipment that was purchased by the Linerboard M.ill ~rf th:l.n the last two or three years?

Will it be resold? 1-Jill it be auctioned off? Toifill it be left there to rust and deteriorate? ~fuat will happen to all the equipment and all the camps and so forth 7769

"ay 14, 1976 Tape 2706 IB-2 ~~. NEARY: that have been purchased by the l ,inerboard ~!ill at tremendous cost? ~'!\. CROSBIE: The equip~ent for woods camps will be used when we have to expand our logging operation. They will not be used this year but 1f we get over this marketing problem, ~r. Speaker, and if the markets :Improve and Labrador Linerboard goes on to produce 1 ~Jhich it can now produce 300,000 tons of linerboard each year, then these woods camps will all have to operate and will all operate. ~. SPFAKER: ¥.!!. CALLAN : The hon. member for Bellevue. ~l r.

Speaker, on at least one other occasion I have asked the Yinister of Recreation of the government's position regarding stadia or one stadium during this year. Now I am particularly concerned with whether or not government intends to build a stadium at Placentia this year and also whether or not government has made a commitment to build a stadium at Ferryland in the district of Ferryland this year. 1>'R • SPEAKER: The hon. M:lnister without Portfolio. Hl'. HELLS: Obviously this is a year of restraint.

I will nonetheless - and you know commitments have not been made because of the retraint programme ,.hich applies to hospitals and the recreation programme as well. Insofar as detail, if the member wants to know - what does the hon. member want to know( detail of whether a coaaitaant or not has been made to Ferryland? PREMIER MOORES: No, Placentia. l'l' .• WELLS: !'lacentia. ~IER ~ Whitbourne or whatever. -''111.. WELT.S: ~Tell whatever ones if the member will let me have them and I will jot them down nmv. it Placentia? Then I will get the answer.

Is ~'l' • CALLAN : }'T! .• \•JELLS: Placentia, Ferryland. l'erryland and Hhitbourne. PREMIER HOORES:No, 1ust Placentia and Ferryland. MR • SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South followed by the hon. member for Terra Nova. 7770

l'ay 14, 1971\ Tape 2706 IB-3 M"P. . NOLAN: ~r. Speaker, a question for the ~inister of Tou~i~ . The minister is no doubt aware t hat two or three years ago a park was promised down where what is commonly referred to as Topsail Beach. The minister is also , I am sure, aware of the problem that the people who live on the beach road going dovn have to go through every Summer and it is abs~lutely savage. The Mounties or no one can control it.

I am wondering,one, what plans his department might have in ~ind for this yea r for that area and while he may not be able to give a detailed report today, I wonder W<'luld he indicat e when he ~rould present some kind of a detailed definitive statement on the situation because we are now up to - what is it? - the fourteenth of ~~y and we are going to have trouble on our hands soon, in my opinion . VJ! . SPEAKER: The hon . l-11niste r of Tourism. )ITt. RICI<EY: Mr.

Speaker, as I ind1.cated at some date earl ier with regards to the same question , two specific problems exist at Topsail Beach, one the matte r of control on the beach itself; two, the acquisition of land to prop erly 7771

Tape No. 27f17 NM- 1 : ~~~KrV: nevclon and to provide the kind of facility thC'rc that He think shoulrl be there. The first question; I think I can feel safe in tc>llin~ lT':"I' hon. fri~nd that there will be an effort made tl1is year to prov:l-tP some kind of control and supervis:!.nn :'n·l to tin •·•hntC'vr.r r.nn he:> done to keep the area clean and c;o,et.rhat presC'ntab] e at least. With rep;ards to the second matter I can only advise him that some prgress is being made but certa:l.nly not as ntuch as v1e would like to see.

And until the legal tanile is cleared un 1~ith re9;ards to ownership and/or price, then WC' will have to 1~ait ancl obviously postpone further clevelopment until that :Is cleared up. ''!!> • SPEAT'.F.R : I will recognize the han. member for Terra ~~OV:l next. '~. VTSP: /\ question for the hon. '1:inistel;' of Tourism~ T. "nntlcr if the mi.nister is in a position to indicate to the llou<>c thr rresPnt situation or circumstances respecting the propnsC''l 'l'prr'l '~nv<J. ''::>.tional Parle golf course? Mr..

SpealcC'r, a federal-provincial co1"1l!!ittee was rstnhlishrd qni.t~ some time ago with regards to the establishment of .1. f,olf course at Terra Nova and it is part of or comes uncler thr rros ~'orne a;,reement as opposed to the Terra Nova agreement • . '\ numhcr of nrC1blems arose during the past year •.;i t!1 rcp;11rrls tn real i~nrnent of road, realigrunent of boundaries of tl'r park. The Province certainly has not impeded any pror,ress. !!e have r,iven a great deal to bring this project to n h~a,l .:md to have it started.

He agreed to give additional ] .-mr1, Then• ••err certain items vTi th regards to road realignl"lent tl,."t ·.ve ol'vi.011Sly have to ta1~e a look at because of the cost. \11 oF tl1 is r-:ecmr.c1 to be ironed out and nnH finally when we thought ,. 1772

Tape No. 27()7 HR. HICKEY: we had agreement the federal government were interestet\ in a

section of the Terra Nova agreement with regard to hyclro development and that hydro development if it should take place the penstocks I believe ~•auld he within the boundaries of Terra Nova Park. 'l'he federal ~overnment would like to have tbat clause removed from the agreement. He are not in a position to say yes or no !\"f - 2 to it until we have a definitive statement from Newfoundland Hydro which we are waiting for. Whenever we have that position ~ve h:tve informed the federal government that we will be back to them and hopefully from there we can go on and hopefully get something started on it. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Twillingate. MR. SNALU100D: ~lr. Speaker, would the hon. the Minister of Forestry and Ar,riculture tell us whether he has any plans for this year to remove> the serious bottleneck there is at t!1e packinp; house operation in Fort Pepperrell, pork, beef, mutton, lamb, broilers and so on? A bottleneck conaisting of the very inadequate amount of cold storage, the amount of cold storage limiting seriously the volume of turnover there can be. Are there any plans to end that inadequacy 'by installing additional cold storage capacity so badly needed there? MR. SPF.AKER: The han.

Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture. IW •• ROUSSEAU: The only thing I can say now, Mr. Speaker, is 1ve are aware of the inadequacies and the r;rowing inadequacy of the operation down at Pepperrell and certainly in the futur~ in all likelihood, it will not be this year but in the future we certainlv have to look at expanding the operation down there. T do not sec anything in this year's plans for it. ~. SPEAKE~: A supplementary. "ffi. S'MALL'-'OOD: Mr.

Speaker, I do not think -I know you are not allmred to give information,you are supposed to seek it - is the minister not aware of the fact that there really is no 7773

' la y 14, 1 !'7f- Tape MO. 2707 NM- 3 •rr.. SHAT.L!Jntm: need to increase the fac1.lities down t her e but to inc r c.,se only t he cold storage capacity for the f)Toducts of the "1hc>le operation anrl that the lack of it is causing farmers in the r rovince to raise less pork, less lamb, less poultry> leas beef th an they nre capablP of doin g , and the plant is capa ble of hnndling,if you could only store it in cold storage, ''F. ~::F.R: The hon, Minister of For.estey and Agriculture, 7774

}lay 14, 1976 Tape 2708 IB-1 1n'. PJlPSSF.fiT: r·lr. Speaker, :tt is not just the cold storage it is the Nhole plant. You know we have problems with the amount of stuff we can put t)1.rough the plant c1own at Pepperrell. Hopefully as the year progresses, as we try to encourage swine production or production of any other livestock, we have to have the facilities to - ~lll. S!-IALL v!OOD: You cannot encourage it. They cannot handle now what - 1-'P.

R()USSEAH: One would hope that by encouraging jt and by the growth in this that the demand will be such that government wiH have to look at the possible expansion of facilities as I saicl. is certainly sometfling which is in our future plans. That Sell the Premier on it. ~!?. Sl'ALU!Onp: 1m. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Terra Nova. Nl>. NJ'AP.Y: ~·r. Speaker, to the ~~inister of Justice. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the manager of Homeplan Realty on I' arch 30, and the manager of another mortgage company, and ~·r.

Robert Ncr.rath a fe~' nights ago said that he could not stomach what was gojng on in the mortgage business, bonusing, finders fees, etc., does the minlster now feel that a royal commission to look into this whole matter, in vjew of these three state111ents made by these three gentlemen who work in the industry, does the minister now feel that a royal cornm:l.ssion should be set up to look into this whole matter of bonusing, finders fees and brokerage charges and investigation fees and so on? l·'ll • O.PF .. AKE'R : The hon. "inister of Justice. Ml.. HI C10' liN : ~~r.

Speaker, the government in the discharge of its responsjbj]jty has :Introduced into this House legislation to meet any problems that may have arisen or will arise in the future. llR. NEARY: "r. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the m:l.n:l ster indicate in the legislation if there will be a clause to Make retroactlve payments, refunds to people who have been rippeo:l off ln bonuses and give them rebates and so forth? :l.n the legjslation? 7775 Will that be included

~'ay 14, 1976 Tape 2708 ~m. CROSBIE: n.etroactive b:lrth control. ~<n. NEAJ!Y: Are we going to get an answer. IB-2 "'Ill. SPEAKER: I indicated that I would recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova. 1~ . LUSH: A supplementary to the ~'inister of Tourism respecting the Terra Nova park - and I thank the minister for his answer a ~o~ent ago.

The latest information that I can gather on this is that the latest proposal by the federal government to the provincial r:overnment is asking for rights to control land or timber rights ~d water r:lghts for their paving a particular rosa to the park and this see~s to be the only thing now. The federal government wants timber rights to control the cutting of timber,naturall~ to the road that they ~dll pave a.nd to control the streams around that area. HI' .• SPF.AKE'P: ~'1'. HICY.EY: The hon. Minister of Tourism. AP- r :l.nd:lcatecl, ~~r.

Speaker, the hon. member's question :1~ probably very accurate if one looks back maybe three months ago. But the information I just r,ave h1.~ a moment ago is the current posit:lon Meaning that the matter with regards to timber rights, the rnatter with regards to highway and the changes in highway, as I understand it 1 those matters have been resolvecl. The one outstanding item or certainly the main item at the mowent i~ whether or not th:!s l'rov:lnce wHl be required to use or develop the power, hydro potent:lnl :In that area.

If so are we preparecl to chanr,e 11 cJ:>use •·.rhich already eY.:IP.ts in the Tel."ra Nova 'lational Park ap;1:eement with regarc1s to the neveloping of that facility and having the rlevl'1t:'pment or p~rt of jt ~~ithin the boundaries of the park. N o~ we are talking about two separate agreements with the federal government. The r,olf course is being doneJor whenevel." it is done ,it '~ill be cone as part ancl package of the Gros Morne ar,reement.

The cl a. use they wish removed or rescinded is part of the Terra Nova National ar-reel"ent·Md certainly thel."e is a question of «hether or not we should open an agreement which was signed many yeRrs ago in relation to something which is going to be done under t 7776

"'ay 14 , 197£, Tape 2708 IB-3 yn . TJICKEY : an entirely new one. However we are not being too s ticky about that if it means getting the proj ect going provi ded that that power clevelop ment or hydro develo('ll>ent is not crit ical to prov idin r. ener~ for the Province . This matter has not been resolved . We have not received an an swer from hydro yet. Ye are awaiting it. lmtjl we are in a posit ion and get that answer we ~~11 not be able to move further on it. }Ill. SPF.AK.ER: The t ime has expi r ed. ,_ 7777

Tape No. 2709 NM - 1 O'ID'\RS OF THE DAY On motion the House resolved itself into Committee of Wnys and ~1c11ns on the Budget debate. ~Hl. SJ>l\AKEn: The hon. member for J.aPoi le. ~m.. ~W.ARY: ~~r. Speaker, I wonder if Your Honour could t<>ll me how much tim<> l have Jeft. '!11. ~T'l\Mmn: Fifteen gone, thirty minutes left. ''r. 'll':ARY: Thirty minutes to go. Well, Sir, I could not do justice to this Matter in a half an hour but I will do the hC'st I can. '~r.

"J'e.'ll.:er, as I indicated to the House last week one.of the chief reasClns why I was voting for this vote of n0~-confidencr in the government was because of their refusal to <lisclose details in connection with various projects that ~re costing the taxpayers of this Province substantial amounts of money. :rt is not for the reasons that the member for nurgC'o -· Bay c1 'Esppir ('!r. Simmons) gave because I thought the memher was very childish in the approach,although I agree with the amendment.

J was <lea;Linr, last night, Sir, when the House rose ,. 1~i.th the ~!ooring Cove ris!1 Plant Building Act agreem£>nt and l more or less, Sir, and I do it again today, I repeat my charges l:lst night that I accuse the government of \lithhold:lng the information in connection with the takeover by Fishery Products Limited, takeover of the fish plant at Marystown, I accuse the goverrnnent of withholding that information from this hon.

Jlouse, And I also stated last night, Sir, that I thought that the agreement was illegal, ultra vires, could not have been consumated without the approval of this House, without the statute, l,rithout the law, without the legislation being changed because that company, Sir, that buUt that ~1ant and lt"ased the plant to Atlantic Fish Processors, which is a •ubsidiary of Atlantic Sugar Refineries Company,was ; 7778

l'fay 14, l'l7fi Tape No. 2709 NH - 2 '!R. !\TEARY: done by

an act of this House. And the government, in ~Y opinion,had a statutory obligation to come back to this hen. Tlouse before the lease was changed, before any major chanp,es could be Jr.ade in that lease. So therefore, Sir, I 1muld SRY that there has been a grave breach of the privilege of this House and the p,overnment cannot stand, they dare not stand in this hon. House and tell members that the Lieutenant­ Governor-in-Council could change and amend that lease, that is not true. It is just not true, Sir, under the agreement. I have i.t here in my hand.

And the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council did not have the power. No, ~fr. Speaker, the Lieutenant-Governor­ in-Council did not have the p01~er to change that company from one company to another, to change that lease from Atlantic Fish Processors to Fishery Products. '1r. Speaker, they tried to do the same thing when we Here in power and the government of the day on the recommendation of the law officers of the Province at that time, Mr, Vince l>fcCarthy and Hr. Green and the members of our own caucus who ~~ere lawyers.

We had the best legal advice available .- there is no way that that co~pany could close down that plant and make their excape and to get off the hook, There was no 1~ay they could do it -·lYe l·rere told hy the law officers of that rlav, who are still, so~e of them the law officers of today.

And He l1ad a study done by Kates, Peat, :>-!arwick and l>fitchell to prove that that plant was viable and the only way that they could v.et out, the only way that Newfoundland Fish Processors could stop operating that plant is if they could prove to the government that it was not feasible, that it was not viable tQ operate it, "'R. SHALL't-JOnl): They were losing money. And that they were losing money and they claimed at that time when there was a slump in the fish market that they "ere losinp; $2.5 million a year, so they claimed. ,. 7779

Hay 14, 197~ Tape No. 2709 'M"R. 'mARY: ).fr. Sllealcer, V.11.tes, Peat, ?1arwi.ch and >fitchell nroved that it 1ms '" vi.ahle operation, I do not need that I already have it. Thnnk you. I had to get it the hard 1~ay hut I will take it, a spare copy. "r.

Sl'eaker, they provec! that it was a viable operation. ~1e law officer~ of th~ day recommended to the government th.<~t we nc;~t allmr the J&1lJloCk Corporation, Newfoundlanc1 l'i~h l"rnceslitng or Atlantic Sugar Refineries to get off the hool , , th:.t 1~e keep th~m on the hook, that they meet thPir financial oh]igntions to this"Province and keep r.unn-tnr; the !'1nnt. They could nflt close the l'lant.

But ohviousJ.y now, Sir, they have co~:~e to this r:ovemment and tlH•y have frightened the goverm ent and they have bullied tM. ~ p;overn..,cnt :l.nto believing that they coulc:l close the plant right nt n til'le, •rr. !'lpenker, when the fishing indu~try ~m"' ne,rer ns gC"od as it is at the moment anc:l marlze.ts ~~ere never M ~ont". '.J'hen '·'C h<1.d to fip-ht the battle with AtlantiC' '!'ish l'rocessir p, there was a slump in the marke>.t.

They coul<l not even ju!'-tify closing the plant then. ~10'•' tl!<?.y comE> :l.n and threaten the r,overnment to c]ose down the plnrit and t'lr. p,overnment falls for it hook, line and sinker and enter into nn nr,reemrmt ~~ith another co!'lpany without coming before this Pouse aml '·rlthout tabling the aereements in this hon. !Tousr.. If t'l-tey tverc not bluffed, Sir, and they did not fall for it 'trhy did they change? Hhy did they make the change?

It looks to T"le liJ.:E> th ey were trying to pull the same thing that th"'Y pullE>d with the fot""1er administration and this t1mE> th..,ir blnff trorked and the government let Atlantic Fi s'1 Processors, ·the Jannock Cornoration, the Atlantic <:ur.ar Refineries off the hool: and now have entered into an ar,reement with a company that we were told a few moments ap.o by the '~inister of Finance was in very serious financial strai~hts and had to he bailed out by the p.overnment sometime ano. 7780

Tape No. 2709 'W-1 - 4 MR. 'TP.ARY: C:o t~tnt lends me to believe, Sir, that if anything goC's 1~rong ~d th the l'arystown To'ish Plant Of1erations that it is tlw r,overt\J!lent, it is the taxpayers that are on the hook. It is the same kind of a deal as the Linerboard mill in Stephenville an~ T think, Sir, it was very unwise and stupid for this government to let that company leave '<ewfoundland >7ithout fulfilling their obligation.

And T 1mul d not he at all surprised, Sir, but Fishery Products hnd to nass over a few million dollars, a million or two or n counle or three milJion to this company in order to take lt o·,rer. Can you imagine, Sir? Here they are uPder the Statutes, under legi s lation of this 'Province, legally ohl.igated to meet their commi tments and when the lease is changed, so I am told, the company that to~k over had to pay $1 million or $2 million or ~ 3 mill ion to the Nelffoundland Fish Processors in order to leave the Province. Then my hon. friend from St.

John's ~ast {'lr. r!arsh:tll) back in 191\'l- no wonder he today sits over there looking at his colleagues rather quizzically- the minister told us hack then that the goverrunent 1 s refusal to release a consulting firm report, which was the one I referred to a few moments ago on the ~arysto~~ Shipyard by Kates, Peat, Marwick, .'lnd '!itchell, he said. "Must surely be unacceptable to Newfoundlanders." Vell certainly this agreement must be un<tcccpt.1hle to NPiffoundlanders if we coulcl only find out what is in it. If we could only get it tabled.

I had to force the other agre ement out of the minister and the m1.nister tells me he did not have time. Well, Sir, I spent an hour in the Registry Office th:l.s morning dig ginf!; up documents. I had time to r.;o down anu <lo research and the minister did not have time to get his sr ,:rctar y to Xerox a couple of copies of that agreement to bring into the llom<e since last night. Who is the hon. minister tryinr, to cod, Sir? '!r. ~!arshall said back in 1969 th<lt under the Mooring 7781

May 14, 197fi Tape No. 2709 NM- 5 MR. NEARY: Cove Fish Plant Building Act the government was empowered to construct the plant and lease it to Atlantic Processors Limited for a rental sufficient to repay construction and land costs and lend up to one third of the cost of the ten trawlers to the parent company, Atlantic Sugar Refineries Limited. Well what about the trawlers now? noes this new operator, Fishery Products, do they own the trawlers? Are they leasing the trawlers? Can we get that agreement tabled in this House? Because members have a right to know the details of that agreement.

"The statement made by Fisheries Minister Aiden ~aloney that the report would not be made public because a private firm is involved is invalid and unre.al," Mr. Marshal 1 said. Hell "'hat about this situation now where we cannot even get the agreement tabled and the government went off without the authority of the Legislature and violated

an act of this House? Is that unreal and invalid? I would like to hear the member comment on that? lie said we suggested the real reason the report is not l>einp, matle public is because it will embarrass the government. Well I would suggest that is why t!1e agreei'lent that I am trying to get out of the minister, it is like pulling a tooth try to get info~ation, but that would be embarrassing to the government. Then I have some other clippings where Maeystown Fish Plant may change hands and stay open, that was back in 1969, the bon. former Premier Has the Premier of the day.

He guaranteed the people that the government would keep the plant in operation no matter what happened. ''Speaking to nearly 150 enthusiastic residents the Premier said because of continuing and increasing losses Atlantic Sugar, the plant's parent company decided to abandon the operation 7'282

May 14, 1976 Tape 2710 IB-1 I'll. NEA'P.Y: Speakinp, to nearly 150 enthusiastic residents the Premier said, ' Because of continuing and increasing losses Atlantic Sugar, the plant's parent company decided to abandon the operation at the end of June. But the government persuaded them. to delay their departure for two and a half months!" And it was auring that two and a half months that the best legal advi~e by the law officers of the Cro~~ and the report of Kates, Peat, ~arwick and Mitchell told the government that in no way could that crowd close the fish plant in Marystown. They had to keep it operating. MR.

DOODY: That is not so. Mr- . NEARY: That is true, Sir, that is true. And if the minister will go back and check the records he will find it to be true. Look at the Kates, l'eat, :>-'anrick, Michell report and ask the law officers of the C:rm-m. The Premier said that the company - that is the Premier today - the company had lost a total of $2.5 million last year, over $1 mjllion in interest, the $9 million government guarantee. ~'r. ~peaker, listen to '"hat the ~1HA at the time, Sir, M'r.

Canning, who was gone out of the Rouse , who has since come back, said about the ~'onroes vho are now the owners or supposedly the owners of the fish plant. "P .J. Canning, Liberal member of the Newfoundland Legislature for Placentia West has levelled a blistering attack on the president of Fishery Products Limited who earlier this week criticized certain aspects of an announcement regarding the proposed enterprise being established at ~arysto\VD by Atlantic Fish Processors Companies Limited." This is November 18, 1966. '' t'lr. Canning said that the comments by M'r.

Arthur M'onroe published in the telegram November 16 were unwarranted and unjustified and un­ patriotic." Now they are do\VD running the plant. Well what kind of a deal do they have with this government? 1- a c is what I want to find out, Sir. I cannot say too much more about it until I see the agreement and get a chance to study it. Now I am not complaining about the consolidating of the outstanding 7783

l!ay 14, 1976 Tape 2710 IB-2 ~ffi • NF..AJ!Y: loans and guarantees. I think that is a good agreement. As a matter of fact only a few days ago I suggested that it was time to put the boots to the Monroes and then the defender of the ~onroes, the "inister of 1-'ines and Energy, got up and defended these people, what outstandin~ Newfouni'J.anders they ~1ere. Here was the ~inister of Finance just after putting the boots to them, just after socking it to them in this agreement that is, ~ir, about as close to nationali~atjon as you can get. The minister knows that.

The government has control of the company but what I do not understand - and perhaps there is something that I am not, maybe the minister can straighten me out - is why after telling the ITouse that this co~pany was in serious financial straits to then turn over the ~arystown shipyards to this company and let the other company get off the hook. It would be an interesting exercise to hear the minister try to w:l.ggle his way out of that one. MR.. DOODY : I can supply you with the infoil'lation but I cannot ~arantee that it will straighten you out. ''P.. NEARY: Well, Sir, I would like to get the information.

Now, 1'r. Speaker, that deal is likely to cost the taxpayers of this Province a substantial amount of mcney as did the linerboard deal because :l.t is a similar deal to the linerboard takeover. It is a similar deal. It is likely to cost the taxpayers of this Province hundreds of thousands of dollars that they can ill afford at a time when my hon. friend from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) keeps reminding the House that Newfoundland is headed for ff.nancial disaster. I think it was very um~ise, a very stupid move that the government trade.

Sure keep the plant going. · J8m!Gc:k, Newfoundland Fish Processinr. and the Atlantic Sugar Refineries under the law of this land had to keep it operating. They should n~t have been allowed to get off the hook. In connection with the linerboard operation, Sir. MR. SPF..AKER: Order, please! ,. 778~

"ay 14, 1976 Tape 2710 l 11'. SPF.AXEP.: Perhaps the bon. member will permit me to draw to the attention of all hon. members the presence in the public gallery of ninety-four Crarle YTII 1 s 1 St. Theresa's Junior High students from f;t. John's vith their teachers, J'!r. node, Yr. Andre~~s, J'!rs. n~1ton anrl ~~other Charles. He bid them a sincere welcome. Hear, hear! !Ill., SPEAKJ'.ll: The hon. member for LaPoiJe. IB-3 r~. NFAP.Y: J'!r. Speaker, there are so many other matters that I ~1ant to c:leal with that Hithin tbe limit of ti_me that I have it will be virtually impossible for me to deal with them.

I would like to deal for instance with the matter of the Come By Chance oil refinery and the lack of rlisclosure on the part of the government in connection with the closing of the Come By Chance oil refinery. I would also like to deal with the Churchill Falls takeover, the kicking out of Rrinco. I have asked the minister I suppose twenty-five times now to tell us where the money is going to come from to meet the interest on the loan. The interest alone I am told is between $25 million and $30 miJJ1on a year, the :l.nterest alone, forget the principal.

Yet the government is only go:l.ng to take in this year $5 million or $6 million revenue from the Upper Churchill. Hhere is the balance of the money coming from to pay the interest~ Is it coming out of general revenue? I have been trying to get the answer on that, Sir, and that is another reason I am voting for the amendment because we have not heen ahle to get disclosure on that matter. Then there is the tunnel and the transmission line.

The ~overnment up to this moment have not levelled with the House, are just playing games and are being rather cruel to the people who have built up their hopes and their expectations on both sides of the Stra:fts of Belle Isle in connection with the transmission line and the tunnel.And the people 1mo are unemployed,who think they are goi~3 to get jobs tris year working on that t1mnel, I am afraid are going to be economically maroonec:l according to the statement and the rumblings that we have been getting from the Premier. 7785

Hay 14, 1976 Tape 2710 IB-4 Hl'. NF.AFY: Then in c0nnection ~~:l. th the car wrecks. Pe have not been able to get clisclosure on the deal that has been made with Affiliated Salvage HetaJ rompany, on the dollar that is being collected on the license fees. The hon.. the Premier yesterclay finally had to gtraighten tvhose responsibility it was to carry out this programme. No disclosure again; the rental of office space, no di.sclosure. Hnve not been able to find out what kind of wheeling and dealing is going on behind the scenes.

We know that there has already been one casualty over the rental of office space. the member for St. John's East (Hr. '1arshall). r'P. MAn SHALL: You 1vould not call that a casualty. !'l'. NEARY: A casualty, Sir. The reason the minister gave for leaving the cabinet was because of the government not following the public tendering procedure in the matter of rental of office space and erection of buildings. HJ'.. ~· Al'.SHALL : That is the reason but I would not call me a casualty. Hl'_. NEARY: Well no maybe that is not the right way to put it. }"T'. S~'ALLHonn: The government were the casualty. ~rn.

NEARY: l~aybe it is the government that were the casualty and the hon. member may be all the t·liser. I might say this, Mr. Speaker, that my respect for the hon. gentleman is growing more and more every day. I am surpr:!set1, Sir, that he has been able to stomach it. The hon. gentleman must be a great Tory. That is the only thing that I can say. He roust be a Ponderful, ded:l.cated Tory to be able to sit there almost doing what I am doing criticizing the government, acting as an opposition member and still remaining within their ranks.

He will not leave to come over here with me or with the Liberal ~eform or with the Old Line Liberals or as an independent P.C, the hon. gentleman has elected to stay there and criticize from within. I have a piece of advise for the hon. gentleman. He will continue to get away with that as long as the government only has a slim majority. Once they get a big majority the hon. member 7786

~ay 14, 1976 Tape 2710 MR. NEARY: better watch, the axe will fall right down on the hon. membeT1 1 skull. MR. SlfALL! •IO(Jf\: Hany is the true word spoken in jest, IB-5 MP,, NEAFY: That is not in jest. I have it sized up pretty good. }'r. Speaker, then there is the disclosure on the fishery gear scandal. No reflection on the people Who work in the department but the fishery gear scandal itself, lack of disclosure there. Then there is lack of disclosure about the financial prospects of this Province, our borrowing.

We know, Sir, that the last time the government went to the bond market to borrow $50 million that they ran into a lot of flak. We know that Mr. Richard Green who was the former party bagman is till the solicitor representing the government in connection with the bond issues. ~'r. Speaker, I would like to hear the minister comment on that, Why they have continued to keep Messrs. Green and McNabb as their solicitors.

I would also like the minister to tell us why back :In the middle of last year when a bond issue was floated in Europe,in France, that the law firm that was commissioned to represent this government was the law firm represented by my bon. friend, Wells, O'Dea, Halley, Earle and Shortall. !«. WILLS: F.epresented the underwrit~rs. MR. NEARY: The ' undeYW'rl.t'ers recommended by the government. The bon. former Premier knows and I know how that works.

It may only mean $3,000 or $4,00? or $5,000 to the minister's firm but I think it is very unwise for the minister,while he is either a backbencher or while he is a member of that government,to handle, to have anything to do with government guarantees or government loans. It is very unwise. In my opinion it does appear to create a conflict of interest. There is nothing illegal about it. I do not know if the minister himself made a couple of trips to Europe but his colleague certainly did, Mr. O"nea, }lr. Frank O'Dea, who I will have more to say about in this House in other debates.

But certainly, Sir, I think it is very unwise for the government to give 7787

t'ny 14 , 19 76 Tape 2710 IB-6 ~ 'll. NEA.FY: these 1 i.t tle goodie!' to e:lther backbenches, lawyers who are back­ benchers or to lawyers ,.,ho are ministers of the Crown. MJl • l1tfl!Pl!Y : ~''hat about the previous government? They would not get entangled with them? f- 7788

May 14, 1975 Tape No. 2711 NM- 1 m~. NEARY: h'ell certainly not to my knowledge they did not. I do not know of one case where bond issues·· were handled by - MR. J. CARTER: None at all? MR. NEARY: Well I do not know, Sir. I could not say for sure. MR. SMALUJOOD: They were. That is right. MR. NEARY: They were. Haybe they were. And I am not defending it, Sir. I think it is a very unwise policy and a policy that should not be followed by any administration.

If a man is supporting a government or a member of a government he should cut his strings as far,as I am concerned, and not be passed out little goodies from the government. MR. MURPHY: When the hon, gentleman was on this side he did not object. MR . NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am very concerned. as -is the bon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Snallwood) about the financial prospects of this Province.

They already had trouble and I anticipate that there will be further difficulties when they go to the bond market again because of the closing of the oil refinery at Come By Chance, the trouble that is encountered with the Linerboard mill, the slow down in construction in the construction industry, the economic : outlook. And Mr. Speaker, Mr. Gar Pynn,no doubt now,will be getting his job in the Department of Finance after coming out publicly yesterday and saying that there is no problem in the bond market&. The government can borrow all the money it Hkes.

It can get all the loans it wants because the govenunent has shown restraint and cut backs and belt tightening. And as my hon. friend pointed out so often, what restraints? $250 million increase in expenditure this year, where is his logic? Is he teaching business administration over at the university? ' fl1. DOODY: '!R . NEARY: Suggest some programme you want to cut out. No, Sir, I am not going to suggest. I am not the government. If I were the government I would recall the ~Torma and Gladys, I vmuld sell the Churchill Falls jet, I '~auld .. 7789

'lay 14, 197~ Tape No. 2711 N~ - 2 hrinr, hack the Norma and Gladys, I would eliminate extravagence and waste. I could save the government if they woul~ only allow me, give me a minister's salary, I ~10uld save the government millions of dollars by going through ~•ith a pencil through the estimates - MR. OOCJDY: Why do you not save your own salary and get out of here. >fR. rW.ARY: Hr.

Speaker, the Linerboard mill alone, and, Sir, I will probably run out of time on this one, but, Sir, the r.oose Eay operation must be the most extravagent '-'C'ods operation, Sir, that was ever carried on in ~orth America, not l>ecause they do not have the workers down there, Sir, hut b<'can»e, f'r. Sneaker, as •·7e have heard so often and we have stated so often, because of mismanagement by the Linerboard people. There are millions of dollars of logging equipment Jying around rusting out and that is why I asked the ministrr a question today about uhat was going to happen to the equipment.

T knmv it is being storecJ. tt has been hiclc1en away in Stephenville. It has been poor planning on the part of the management of the Linerboard mill. They·are about 300 per cent over staffed I am told. They had ei~hty-five more l!lechanics than they needed. And that is why, Hr. Speaker, the price of wood is costing the Linerboard mill much more than it is costing Price (Nfld.) Limited or Bowaters. ~lr. Speaker, this charge has been made so often and I have it noH from people who are eye witnesses.

Just to get back to the Newfoundlanc1 operation for a moment, that we were talking about during the oral question period, do hon. members of this House know that millions of dollars of new logging equipment for the Newfoundland operation have been bought and that several sets of logging camps have been bought and never used, and will not be used this year. ~lhat kind of planning, Sir, is that? MR.. J. CARTER: Is the hon. gentleman reading from a·prepared text? 7790

Hay 14, 1976 Tape No, 2711 NM- 3 ~!R. !>lEARY : No, Sir, I am not reading from a prepared text. I am reading from a report. MR. NOLAN: Table it. MR. NEARY: I will not table it, I guarantee you if I tabled it though the roof would go right off the Linerboard operation. Hr.

Speaker, I ~·ill tell you something else that hon. members of the House may not be aware of, that at the moment even though they are not going to do any logging on the Island of Newfoundland this year, does Your Honour realize that the Linerboard mill is bidding on contracts for woods, roads, bidding against private contractors and are getting the contracts because they are under-bidding them, to build woods access roads. Is this the purpose of a Crown Gorporation, Sir? My hon. friend from Stephenville (Mr.

McNeil) knows that and my hon. friend could probably tell us about the equipment that I have been talking about. MR. ~CNEIL: 1-11.. NEARY: to improve. But I must say they are improving. They are improving. Well it is time for them The hon. the former Premier (Mr. Smallwood) accused the company of mismanagement and he had it from a pretty reliable source. And I have got it from a pretty reliable source here that there is gross negligence and mismanagement in that operation. MR. CALLAN: More supervisors than workers. MR. NUR.Y: She is top heavy with supervisors so I am told. Thev are over staffed by 200 per cent.

At one stage of the game, Mr. Speaker, instead of sending out an expert the Minister of Mines and Ene~gy sent out Mr. Cochrane, his executive assistant. Mr. Cochrane I believe, he may be a good man, may be a very competent man1 but he is a former school teacher and he knows nothing about logging operations t 7791

~ay lli, 1<176 Tape No. 2711 NM - 4 'IR. W.A'RY: ann he sent out Mr. Cochrane to take a look at the whole state of affairs as far as the management of the operation was concerned and the managementof the Goose Tiny operation <1nrl to try to persuade management to cut back by ten per cent. A school teacher, who may be an excellent man, may he a good executive assistant, I am not coming down on the man. But,Sir, I would say that the total t1a~es ;md fringe benefits that are being lashed out to imports an~ ahsol utely unbelievable.

They have come in1 as they have :!.n other sections of Newfountiland,and then sent back to the Mainland for their buddies. And you have a lot of clerlrs '·7ho could be recruited in Newfoundland tJhn were working there. I do not knot• if tl,.ey are still there or not. And it would be. interesting now to find out what the salary of the mam1ger of the Linerboard mill is. Last time I heard it was ~75,0nn nlus a home, plus a car, plus a retirement plan, plus an insurance policy. It must be well over $10n,nnn by now. PJus commissions. "f~.

"MCNEIL: If they do not sell much they do not have to '"orry about the commissions. ~m. NEARY: No, if they do not sell anything that is - "lr. Speaker, I would ]ike to ask the minister a few questions in connection with the Linerboard operation. vfuo was responsible for the purchasing of millions of dollars of lor;ging equipment before the areas were allotted to cut pulpwood? Now that is a legitimate question, a fair question that should get an answer. N umher two, Hr.

Speaker, why keep a full supervisory staff for nayhe twelve months out of a l)'ear without any \ynrl' being done~ Number three, Sir, has the minister or his staff or the Linerboard mill people undertaken to make a comparison 7792

MD.y 14 . 1976 Tape No. 2711 MR. NEARY: on the per cord basis ~dth Price and Bowaters regardin~t all supervisory and mechan:f.:cal personnel? And, Mr. Speaker, ha~e ail the wood coming to Stephenviile, east of Deer Lake, have the minister looked into having it transJ)orted by r.NR rathe .r than by truck7 I am told, Sir, from the experts that theJ:e is no problem to have · it transported by ~TR. I do not know what the reason :f.:s hut I would certainly lile to find out why they are so interested in trucking when they can get it done cheaper by CNR who can handle it,and I would like to see a true cost of the wood.

I have got some questions on the Order Paper in connection with this. Then again is there 81:J.Y need to go to the Mainland to get clerical persnnnel1 You have these gentlemen com~ng in here and brining in their ·buddies: These are all legitimate questions, Sir, and~! know my time is running out and the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Harshall) 1 who wants to go to Ottawa, would like to have ~ rhance to speak before he goes and I am not going to prolons tbe .debate. I would like to hear what the hon. member has to say.

But once the vote of nonconfidence is taken, Sir, and I am going to vote tor it for all the reasons I have given plus forty other reasons I could give •. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): member's time has expired . Order, please! The hQn, f-IR. tlE@Y: I thank you Your Honour and I hope to get back to some other matters, Sir, when we get back to the Budget debate itself. 7793 ·[- 5

May 14, 1976 Tape 2712 PK- 1 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for St. John's East. MR. W. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat timid to say a single word here today after aspersions cast over here by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) as to the dire things that are going to happen to me, so I will h.ve to try and contain myself to avoid any possible reprecussions that he threatens. I do not know if he is speaking from first hand knowledge or from inference or what have you. Mr. Speaker, what we are discussing here is a proposed amendment,proposed by the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) to the Budget Speech. Of course, to vote for'the amendment is to vote 6or lack of confidence in the government, It would mean that the government would have to resign .if it passed. And the amendment which the hon. member proposed is that this House regrets the failure of the government to disclose completely and fully the presaat financial situation of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the government thereof. Now at the outset, Mr. Speaker, I would say without expecting any great surprise to be emitted from anyone that I cannot vote for that motion.

If this motion were to have read,though,that this House regrets the failure of the House to be able to disclose completely and fully the present financial situation of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and if by voting for that it would not be indicating lack of confidence in the government, I should be very much inclined to vote for it. Because, Mr.

Speaker, having spent seventy-five and some-odd hours discussing the financial situation of this Province through the media that is presented in the House of Assembly through to the present procedures, there is no doubt in my mind that for some reason or other,be it be procedures, or be it other extraneous matters,that this House,as it presently exists,is incapable of being ab&e to bring forth,not only to this Chamber but to the public of this Province,the real financial situation. And I think that is the first problem we h.ve to realize and we have to tackle. 77~H

May 14, 1976 Tape 2112 PK - 2 Mr ,' Mara hall : We have gone through seventy-five hours of estimates. And I think it is of value to ask ourselves,what did any of us possibly gain from the exa.ination of the estimates? Are the people here in this House any more aware of the: financial aituatiou which the Province is now eXperiencing? Are the people outside more aware?

Are the people outside and the people in this Legislature sware that sacrifices have to be made today in order to avoid bhe agonies that most surely are going to decend upon us in the future, with increasing voracity and strength,and with a much, much greater degree as each pear goes by,of hard times and what have you. No, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe so, and I do not think any meaber of this House can honestly stand ou his feet and say that the House is working as a House of Assembly or any elected body is supposed to operate for this purpose.

Because this is the whole reason for there beina a House of Aaaembl~ or a Camaittea-­ it is to examine the financial affairs of the Provinee,to let the people know exactly what the situation is so that you can have a responsive and responsible electorate. This House is, Mr. Speaker, completely irrelevant,! would think,to the affairs of this Province. This House is not serving the people of this Province in a way in which it ought to be. Now in years gone by,when there was an abundance of money around, IIUlybe it was not as important.

But right now there is no more crucial issue in this country than the way in which this House is operating. Now it is hard to talk along these lines without getting involved in partisan bickering as to vbo is at fault and who is not at fault, and what should be done. And I would hope to avoid that particular situation. However, I say that here we are now at the end of the time of considering $1.25 ·billion, $1,2so;ooooooo of expenditure from the public parse,that is coming froa every family 7795

May 14, 1976 Tape 2712 PK - 3 Mr. Marshall: in Newfoundland, both present and future, that is being borroved, and none of us,I would say,are demonstrably any the wiser as to the situation. We now speak on a budget after an incamplete examination of the estimates. Many departments were not even discussed. There were many millions of dollars that have not been discussed. And those that were discussed, not all of them were discussed in as an effective manner as they ou&ht to have been.

Now the purpose of examining the estimates, and this is elemental, but it probably needs to be said, the purpose o£ examining the estimates is to really examine how •to get the government to account for its expenditures. And I would ask this House,how many times did we hear the question, what is this being spent for? with respect to an item of expenditure. Very, very few t!mes in the whole seventy-five hours.

Now before getting into certain recommendations that I am going to make with respect to the rules of this Rouse, and the rules changed, and I will take a few minutes from the Budget Speech on that, because I think it is extremely important, it being so that this House is is irrelevant as it is to the needs of our people.

I cannot refrain from making an observation or two with respect to certain remarks that have been made from time to time with respect to the inadequacy of the seventy-five hours, and they came from people on the other side of the House to the effect that when we mentioned that seventy-five hours was the longest time but one that had been permitte~-or not permitted, had been used since Confederation, the answer caae that,~h the Opposition of the time was not really - this was the impression I got, not the words - was not very big, was not very effective and did not really - I got the imputation, I hope it was not meant because this is what I want to address myself to, but I got the definite imputation that oppositions going back in the past were not as good as this one.

As I say,I do not want to get into 7796

May 14, 1976 Tape 2712 PK- 4 Mr. Marshall: partisan bickering. I would have much preferred that some members in our own front benches would have drawn issue to it rather than somebody in the back benches, because I will not stay !n this Rouse and see people for whom all Newfoundland had a great respect years ago,that were labouring under horrendous odds; three in the Opposition at one time, five and six in the other time, not enough money to pay a salary of an executive assistant, Now the Opposition has much money in it, and more power to it, so it should have to carry on the aff•irs.

But I remember that these people were labouring and they had no resources upon which to rely upon,and they did a most credible job, If there is ever a history, a political history of Newfoundland, and you get any penetrating and perceptive pen writing it, therrole that these gentlemen played will be long remembered and will get its, it should, it must get its just desserts because they were a tremendous Opposition. The fact that the Opposition is bigger certainly does not mean that it was better, relatively speaking. So I would just like to make that notation now. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I wonder if the bon. gentleman would allow me? MR. MARSHALL: Certainly! MR. SMALLWOOD: Surely you would agree the whole point is that Opposition with more members in nUIIIber-· would normally require more time to do the same thing that an Opposition of three or four or five or six or seven would normally require? AN HON. MEMBER: Well say 1 eight. MR. SMALLWOOD: Apart altogether from the quality of a smaller Opposition, the Opposition if it is smaller only in numbers, not in talent or ability or patriotism or anything else,but just in numbers,would normally not require as much time. MR.

HARSHALL: I would agree. I mean,that is obvious, You got that many more but you also have the added bit of fesources. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes~ Right~ 7797

May 14, 1976 MR. MARSHALL: have you. HR. S~IALL\o.~OD: MR. ~IARSRALL: Tape 2712 Pk. - 5 You know the added resources were Lhere and what Right ! But the point that I 8l1l making is, I am not saying that not more time is reeded, I will get into that in a moment. And obviously if you got a bigger Opposition you are going to need more time,obviously,to develop it.

But what l want to do ls stand here on my feet, in record, in tri bute to those people who years ago stood her~ \ when it was a very unpopular thing, and there are not that many people here in the Legislatu r e now who will really remember it from experience, but it was a very unpopula r thing to be a member of the Opposition there. I mean l remember - ~IR . SMALLI\000: And discouraging. MR.

SM,AJ.LWOOD: And disheartening and discouraging, and I think that I will not,as I say, I can concede reasonable comparisons between now and the·n with respect to numbers and with respect to resources and changed situations, but I just want to record right here my vote foursqu:~.re and very, very plAinly, of the fact that I do not think that this House,o r that I cannot any way accept any allusions with respect to the quality of these people who stood here many years ago. Now,when we 7798 .•

May 14, 1976 Tape No. 2713 NM- 1 MR. MARS~LL: come to the leventy-five hours , how did this arise? Mr. Speaker, I was chairman of that particular committee at the time. l'hen we carne into government the opposition was seven or eight, we had to sit all night in,,order to get the estimates through~and I think everybody realized there had to be some changes, And I think everybody must realize there still have to be some changes now. But seventy-five hours was set in order to avoid the charade that had to occur ever year with respect to sitting overiight to get the estimates through.

This was not doing a service to the people of Newfoundland either. So we set a time, a time like they had everywhere else,and how we came up with that time , we came up with the seventy-five hours, 1 shall not go into that again. But the seventy-five hours~in my view,then became a contest, became a contest in the partisan mattner between the Opposition side and the Government side,and the Opposition were going to talk longer and longer and longer on the departments and see how they consumed all the time,and many departments were let go.

But regardless of the reasons,and regardless whether seventy-five hours is adequate or not, there is no doubt about it that the rules have to be changed. \Vhen the rules were made, Mr. Speaker, they were not meant to be absolutely and forever. It was a change,and the view was at the time we will try it for a year or two and if it does not work then we will make changes. Now in my view changes definitely have to be made in order to make this House relevant and I have a few suggestions to make along those lines. Now first of all the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) made a very sensible suggestion yesterday early in his speech, I shall not comment on the latter part of it, but certainly early in the speech with respect to the limitation of time for speaking in Co~ittee. He mentioned fifteen to twenty minutes. Now what I am going to suggest and I think ought to be done is that there ought to be a time limit in Committee for individual 779·9

May 14, 1976 Tape No. 2713 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: speeches much less than the forty-five minutes. Now we have seen in the late show, which was also brought in when the rules changed, everyborly given five minutes to - a person ''ho raises a matter gets five minutes, a minister gets five minutes to replv, and that I think has 'vorked out very ''ell, because somebody getting up with a matter,or somebody replying, has to discipline himself and put what he has to say within that five minute period. So I would suggest then that we should consider five minutes each person on his feet at a time and then he has to sit down.

He can get up again and again,as we do,and I think that should be quite sufficient. I mean,if you cannot in five minutes make your point it is not a point really that is 'mrth making. The seconrl suggestion I want to make is to re-arrange the presentation of the estimates to consider the specific subheads first and the minister's subhead last. \Jhat haopens 'is we get on the minister's salary, which is a general - HR. f-!AR~I~_!....:_- ranging nebate all throughout,and then we come down to specific matters.

The Committee could be much more relevant if they considered the specific matters first,and then having passed those then they got on the discussion of the minister's salary. Now I realize that that will probably take a rearrangement ~th the Civil Service, they will have to change their estimates,and the public servants will have to do something different, and that might be as hard to do as to blast and move a mountain, but I think that it ought to be done. MR. SMALLhTOOD: Hould the hon. gentleman allow me?

If he limited the time that members could use speaking to the individual items of a departments estimates, but have them done first and end up that department with the ministerial salary where the minister non,ally gives a broad account of his department, would the han. gentleman limit the time of the sneeches on that heading? MR. MARSHALL: I do not know whether that would be necessary. Hopefully a lot of that would be eliminated by going through 7800

May 14, 1976 Tape No. 2713 ~--~HAL~ the specific parts first. _!!R.:_ SMALLWOOD: Yes. Right. MR. MARSllALL: If it became necessary, I mean,rules are not ru~es that should not be chang•d to suit the circumstnaces. Rut the fact of the matter is the estimates have been used from time to time by everybody in this House for the purpose of emitting their pet philosophies on this, that and the other thing,which is much better left to budget speeches rather than a detailed enquiry into the amounts. So that is the second suggestion.

NM- 3 Then if it comes at the end of the total allotted time that departments are not discussed,! think that the rule should provide that each department should have a certain period of time- say two hours, I just picked the te'E'III two hours, maybe it could be based on the amount of the expenditure- but a certain time limit at the end of the time.in which the Opposition could get up for a certain period of time, say an hour and a half if t~e are going to take two hours, and make their points with respect to that department,and the Government could get up afterwards for a half an hour, whatever allotted tima,and answer.

But I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that it was ever intended when we changed the rules, as a matte~ of fact I know it was not intended when we changed the rules,because I was on the Committee and actually the rules there I drafted the things,and it was not intended at the time that we would ever come to the stage When whole departments of government would not be subjected to some scrutiny, however cursory, by this House or by the Committee of Supply. I think that is necessary.

I mean,you have departments here that I am interested in - I am interested in them all,but there are two departments particularly that have not been discussed for two years in this Committee- one of th .. is Public Works, the other one is Tourism. Now you take Public Works. I think it is a matter of 7801.

Tape No. 2713 NM- 4 l!TI. __ }fARS~!-_L_:_ public interest, you can get this ans~•er from the r,overnment benches at any time,but I think it is a matter of public interest. I am very concerned with Public Hork insofar as the status of the plan for the government building. You remember this p;overnmen t huilding which is planned, a second Confederation Building or what have you. I have reason to remember it and I remember it quite vividly. I assume that this buildin~ is not ~oin~ ahead tcis year in any form because of the restraint and because of the reduction of 500 employees in the Civil Service.

Certainly I do not think that He can justify the closure of hospital beds and deferrment of the pupil-teacher ratio and other necessary things that the p,overnment has done,and still consider the building of a government building of that nature. But I ~• ould like to know about it. Now from a historical point of view it mip,ht be wise to just run over it for just a few moments. Mr. Speaker, the government had originally, as this House knows, intended to house extra government offices in \·!edgewood Park in a rented building that they were going to rent at the time.

And they had intended, they had entered into an arrangement with respect to it,but ~~hen I resigned this resulted in cancellation of the building. Subsequently shortly thereafter it was said that tenders would be called. An announcement was made sometime later, last May,which rmrported to he tender calls hut they were not really tender calls, They were invitations to make proposals,which are not full tender calls. I will not go into that at the present time,but in any event even if they deem them to he tender calls they cannot be acted upon now because it is so long ago.

Nobody knows what the status of that building is,or as far as -I do not kno~. I presume it is shelved. I presume the huilding has to be shelved in this year of restraint,but I would ?: 7802

May u, 1976 Tape No. 2713 NM- 5 MR~ ~HALL_:_ like somebody in the government to inform pubUtly the fact that it has been shelved for the duration . In any event, Mr.

Speaker, I might indicate that I am glad that this issue has been now settled,and that no action will be taken without a full tender call,and that no type of agreement will be entered into by this government, as I know it will not be, simil*r to the one contemplated in February of 1975 with respect to the leasing of space and the payment of $10 million in rental over ten years,which would have paid for the building, on a private deal with a aertain individual. Because if an agreement of that aature were to be entered into it would just lend farther cynicism to the relationship of the public in government.

It would lead to a complete loss of faith,as far as I am concerned,in government institutiona,and I suppose there is no need to belabour that point anymore,because I am glad now that I am pretty sure that all the government now agree with me~that at no cost, not even at the cost of the government itself, can we possibly see such a project ever· .• entertained.

But that is just one aspect, the one particular interest to me in Public Works,and there are many other interests in Public Works that I have and I know that other people have; many other interests other people have in departments that have not been discussed,and there ought to be an opportunity for the dissemination of information if nothing else, as well as • -7 80 3

~'ay 14, 1976 'rape 2 714 Ill-1 Y)' . l"ARSHALI.: for the purpose of asking questions on alJ of these buildings. Tourism, as I mentioned, is another department that has not been discussed for two years, 1-'r. Speaker, two •~hole years. Sixteen million dollars this year :In a period of restraint, $16 million in Tourism and a periorl of restraint 1 and we have not even gone into what the monies are spent for. Now I knm.r that Tourism is a very desirable endeavour by the government, one that must be entered into, one that cannot he taken lightly.

I have no doubt that the expenditures are necessary and desirable as to the projects that are being entered into. But when we have a period of restraint, anc I say when ~~e have hospital beds closed and we have restraints on educational institutions and what have you, all of these departments, including the nepartment of Tourism which has such frills, I think should he discussed. lfuen I say fri] ls I do not mean that :In a vernacular manner. I mean frills in relation to the particular times -that ~· Je are in. So it should be c:"iscussed.

There :l.s one subhead, for instance,here in Tourist Services alone where you have an amount of $2 milU.on being paid out. In Tourist Services you have exactly about $2 million spent out for Publicity and Investigation. Now I think that :In vie<.r of statements that have been made from time to time,and in view of the restraints that we have, that full details of what th:ls money is being spent for should he presented to the CommHtee of the llouse,who it is intended to pay it to,if that is known, for what purposes.

Because, you know, there is a lot here, for instance, for the Documentary Films, just a small amount, maybe $100,000. For Development under Publicity and Investigation., ~ROO,OOO. Now that is a lot of money. "r. Speaker, if I may - I c1o not wish to embarrass anyone - but I am having dHfic:ulty making myself heard from the other end ovc~ the buzz of conversation. l' f'. F. ROI-lF.: ~Tr. Speaker, would the lllember allo"' a short qqestion? 780·~

~·ay 14, 1976 Tape 2714 ....:."'R• 'F. ROWE : Sir, I agree with many of the suggestions made by the hon. member for St.

John's East (Mr. ~arshall) 1 but does he not think that if IB-2 the budget speech was called before the consideration of the estimates,and under the shadow system that we have of cabinet shadows,that the broad policies of the department or each department could be considered during the budget speech,and therefore would nllow more time for detailed consideration of the estimates,and we ,,,ould not have run into the extreme difficulty we had this year,and we would have gone through more departments of government if the budget speech had been called before the consideration of the estimates? ~~ .• SPEAKE'P: Before the hon. gentleman resumes I would like to welcome on behalf of all han. members two groupe of students to the Bouse of Assembly, one from Salt Pond Elementary School at Burin, Grade VIII students, forty-four of them,with their teacher,Mr. ~foulton;and from Notre Dame Elementary School in Labrador City ten Grade VI students with their teacher,Mr.

Snook. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these young people to our Province. SOME HON • }!E}<BEJ!S : Hear, hear! ~'R . MARSHALL: ~r. Speaker, in response to the question from the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de ~!erde (Mr. F. Rowe), this would possibly help,but I think you hsve got to remember the fact,too,that during the estimates we had - I do not want to get involved in this - but we had six hours talking about a basement meeting. We had a motion led in to reduce the ~•:l.nister of Health's salary by the Leader of the Opposition which was discussed for six hours and then subsequently withdrawn.

So, you know, the thing is that I do not feel that the estimates themselves,apart from the budget speech, the estimates are being used for the purpose for which they were 1ntended. So getting back to the specifics on Tourism- I digressed a little bit-on these two important departments that have not been discussed for two years, Publ ic Works and Tourism. In the Tourism area you have this amount of money, large amounts of money, paid out ... 7805

~< ay 14, 19 71i Tape 2714 for PubU.city Investill;ation. I would like to know,because it has never been put for the last two years, I would like a ~. etailed if IB-3 I couJ d, pnbl lcly - not for me but for the public to know - a detailed explanation of ~-.t..at It was spent on last year, what it is proposed to be spent on this year, what benefits were derived from the expenditures last year, what benefits are expected to be derived from the expenditure this year. So those then, lfr. Speaker, are three of the suggestions.

Time limit in Committee; rearrangement of the estimates; and allowing time at the end for departments wh:!.ch the Opposit:lon,because it cannot order its affairs properly,has not time to discuss,allowing at least a couple of hours anyway for each department to be discussed in estimates. There are more though. I feel that the financial affairs of this Province - I will not dwell on this because I have spoken on it before - cannot he fully appreciatec unless and until Crown corporations, crown agencies and boards, their budgets are brought he fore this House in detail and discussed before this House.

SOME HON. }lEI-fllERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: I think that this is an absolute necess:!ty,particularly over the past ten years when such a large amount of government functions have been delegated out to Crown corporations and out to the various hoards and what have you. NP. NEARY: Including the un:l.versity. Does he intend to include,or would he include,or what ch,np,es would he make in terms of a thorough :Investigation pertaining to the university,if any? ~ ~. :1-'ARSHAT.L: WelJ,T would not ~1 ant to cligress.

I have gotten i.nto that before. flbviously I think there should be much more of a public cl i o.cussion of the affa:l rs of the university. You have got to be very careful, thoup:h, that you do not interfer with academic freedom . But matters for instance,to take the example of the management and building of 7806

}lay 14, 1976 Tape 2714 IB-4 MR. MARSHAlL: buildings over there,and the management of the buildings,and contracts Jet with respect to the thing,have been vested in the university. And to have public debate of that is certainly not going to interfer with the hon. gentlemen's academic freedom. But certainly Crown corporations now - ~ ~. S ~ALLWOOD: The property side~ ~~. ~AP.S!ALL: The property side, yes. '-'R. st-!AJ..LWOOD: Versus the scholastic. So,you know,there is a line. ~~. !o'A~SHALL: Hell even the scholastic, there is a little bit on the scholaatic. You have to go a little bit easier.

But we have been hoodwinked . in a way,with our views to untversities,and it goes back to years ago when all throughout the world,! suppose, where university education was not as predominant as it is today,and they used to say to the legislators,"Do not interfer with us,or anybody~ do not have anything to say-to us because you are interferring with academic freedom: A lot of the people whom they were talking to - you know, it was sort of a mystical group,body as it were - an~ they dare not question them.

Hut I think most people nowaday~ would turn around and say, well you know at least this Province when it has a state university - let me put it this way - ought to have the prerogative,with its limited reaources,of determining say that we want a greater emphasis, not to say how it is to be done, on,say,marine b:f.ology and "'ar:fne science rather than on the classical languages. I mean, this is the t.'By we are doing it, Sm1E RON • }'millER: r:r. }!1\RSTIALL: Hear, hear! Eut that is a point that may digress. So I th:f.nk that r.rown corporations should be brought before the House.

And I look,ynu know,with a certain amount of amusement when I make th:fs statement to hear the bon. gentlemen there opposite pound the t~hle when I say that. Some of the bon. gentlemen here, I did not notice them poundlng the table. }<aybe they ~. id. But it was the hon. gentlemen there opposite tmen I was over there saying exactly 7807

T:1pe 2714 IB-5 "R. !•APSRALL: the same thing,~~o are looking at me with very, very stoic faces. So,you lmow,things do change. I try not to MR. SMALLWOOD: If the hon. gentleman will allow me. At that very time that tve were looking impasliive.behind the scenes a raging row was r;oing on tv:f.th the university. He tVanted the full budget of the university to be presented to us - it never 1vas - and by us presented to the House - and it never was. PREMIER MOORES : ~ • SUALL '~-,TOO!': Why Not1 HE'. r:ave in to the univers1 ty. Right! PREMIER MOORES: 'P. . I"ARSRALL: As everyone knows I hate partisan matters, Mr.

Speaker, and I do not ~mnt to get partisan. But I say this now, the hon. gentleman belonged to another era,if I can say,where it was not thought as important. But never !'lind the ~'emorial tTniversity. I do remember that the government of which all the hon. members there opposite so willingly embraced and followed,in 1966,for 1nstance,brought in a law tvhich permitted secret borrowing in cabinet. Now this is the government tvhich took the initiative and changed that and brought it back into the people '' s 'Rouse.

So I am not really that much inclined, although I value their comments from time to time, I am not really - you know,! have to look at past experiences in relation to the desk thumping apd the great smiles that I r,et from the other side. Now, Mr. Speaker, those ·are the four things. I will come down to another c'ouple now in the few mo111ents that are available to me, on my observations for what they are worth. I realize they may not be thought to be worth too much,but I will make them anyway because I am an elected member.

I think that we increased the House to fifty-one members in the last sessi.on, last Assembly. Now I voted for that obv1.ously, ancl I supported it wholeheartedly. But I supported it probably,·and I thi.nk other members probably supported it the same way; when we came into government there was a situation tvhere there were forty-two seats and because pf the force of circ~stances as it were. which, shall we say- 7808

nay 14, 1976. MR. J. GARTER: ~~: Tape 2715 Gerrymandering% Well, the hon. member for St. John's North(Mr. J, Carter) said it. I llill ""t ~··"nt RR - 1 to, too shy! l!ut because of the force of eircumstances there was a great preponderance in the rural areas, the urban areas much underrepresented. Now we had to change that to rational, reasonable representation to spread it all around. We could have done it two ways. If we kept the forty-two seats we would have had to take away from the rural and put into the urban,which would have been a bad thing.

So what we did - this is my view of it ~ what we did was we increased all the seats.so that the net result was that there was reasonable representation in all of Newfoundland throughout the fifty-two districts. I think it is pretty well even between 9,000 and 10,000 people in total. I think that is the distribution . Now that was the way we did it. We did it for the best of reasons, to avoid any acrimony between the rural centres and the urban centres, but at the same time to distribute the seats as they ought to have been.

Now we have the seats evenly distributed in this House,and I wonder whether fifty-one members is over-governing this Province,and whether perhaps we might turn our attention, I think it would probably be a good idea to turning our attention to reducing the seats to between thirty-six and forty. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! I said that at the time. MR. MARSHALL: I feel that this would be a saving and a necessary one. I think it is something that we can all consider at the present time. Now we could not consider that before,because if we considered that before all we would be doing was be drawing from the rural areas.

That would have heen most unfair. But now we have them evenly distributed. We have the way open by which to do it. I think it would be something that could well be considered 4 because I think fifty-one people are too many in here. I know some -.mbers might think the first one that should go is the bon. member speaking, but I do not know. So those:reduce the M.H.A.s. The Crown corporations must be b~ught before the House,and some procedure ought to be taY.en to do it. Tbe limitation on the debates~! say some 7809

~lay 14, 1976. Mll • ~~ARSHALL: Tape 2715 RH- 2 procedure implemented to effectively inquire into Crown corporations,like havin~ officials before committees to answer questions as to their expen­ ditures, to have to defend them. A time limit of five minutes and five minutes appears to me to be quite adequate. I mean,if you·cannot put your thoughts together within that period of time it is not worthwhile talking about it.

Rearranging of the estimates, I think, would do a lot, the way they are presented,and assuring that under no case, in no case shall there be any departments of this government that are not brought before the Committee of Supply :ln this House for at least some discussion. If the Opposition desires to fritter away the time, and the time is all gone and there are ten departments left, well have limits for each department for the time. But we must do something, Mr. Speaker, because there is a very real crisis in our present financial situation. This is not perceived by the people in the Province.

It is not perceived by the people in this House. I have to say myself that after sitting through seventy-five hours of estimates I am not all that much more the wiser as to the financial condition of this Province than when we went into it. I am alarmed about the financial condition of this Province. I feel that the major problem facing us today is to make the public aware of the financial situation, so that if the public is aware of it then it can accept what has to be done to get this Province back on a firm foundation. I only have ten minutes to deal with certain matters of the Budget Speech.

So I will have to put, I guess, some of that over into the Throne Speech. But I do have a few moments to dwell on one or two other - AN RON. MEMBER: The member is speaking on the amendment. He can also speak on the budget. t!R • MARSHALL : I realize that. I hope I will have an opportunity then to go further. But there is one

part in the Budget Speech that I do wish to further dwell on~which is on page eighteen of the Budget Speech. This is with respect to the Labrador Hydro resources. It reads, "Since the November budget this government has been working on a revised approach to the development i: 7810

May 14, 1976. MR • MARSHALL : Tape 2715 RH - 3 of Labrador hydro resource. A major issue in the determinatio~ of whether the construction of the transmission lines, tunnel and interties should continue as phase one of the Gull Island project~is the negotiation of a purchase agreement with Hydro~Quebec to obtain sufficient power from the 5225 megawatt Upper Churchill Falls site on a long-term basis. In addition another major issue is the necessary arrangement with the Federal C~vernment for financing the transmission line, tunnel and interties. These issues are still outstanding." Now, Mr.

Speaker, we have spent seventy-five hours in Committee. We all know what we have talked about. There are many issues in this Province such as unemployment, the development of the Province, the fiscal position of the Province that mast be discussed, but one of the things'that I know that the government will be discussing before we adjourn is the present position with respect to the Gull Island project. Now I have seen that. In the Budget Speech it said these issues are still outstanding.

I understand from the answer given by the hon. the Premier today to the question,that they are still outstanding and about to be resolved.

But we have this position here,as the Rouse will remember, at the time in November 18 when this matter was going through this House at the time, that I demurred from joining the government in endorsing its policy because, at the time,! thought before any further expenditure ought to be made of any nature in this economy,or any economy for that matter,by any person, that we ought to have agreement and concurrence from the Government of Quebec with respect to the recapture of power in order to assure the financial viability of the altered version of the project'· that is the • construction of the power lines.

We ought to also have the financing guaranteed from the Federal Government. Now at the particular time that was the position I took. Monies have been spent since. I would assume that even though these issues are outstanding,and I would assume from statements that have been made from the ministry that they concur with the peeition that was taken then,and which of course is the obvious one, r 7811

May 14, 1976. MJ> • MARSJW.L: Tape 2715 RR - 4 and that they realize that this Province cannot make expenditures without these two essential prerenuisites being determined. Now I will not say anything further because I understand, and would hope, that there is going to be a debate in the Rouse of Assembly with respect to the further information on the project when it is received. The fact of the matter remains,in this particular case,it is the most important project that has been undertaken by the government.

It is the most important project that is going to affect the Province for generations yet to eome, and the chances are - I do not know what the state of the negotiations are, but I would hope that there is going to be, as I hope and I expect, there is going to he a full and complete debate with respect to the entire matter,because so much has happened he-tween November and ~tay.in the past six montha,that the situation is becoming more and more cryatalized.

And I feel that if things occur, as I now fee~ they are going to occur- and,if the House will forgive me, as I, in effect, predicted they would occur last Novembmer - that if this situation occurs we have got to take another and completely different look at the development of power in the Labrador area. Now another item that I want to mention, Mr. Speaker, arising out of the budget speech~is the position with respect to the cutting of 500 positions in the Civil Service. I do not know where they are going to occur, and I do not recall - maybe I have missed it. Maybe these details have been given.

But there is one question I want to ask and that is: Will this cutting of the 500 tobs cause in anyway any reorganization or,say,another restructuring, if you will, of the government itself? Row are these jobs to be cut? And, you know, what are the results that are going to pertain? Now with respect to the restructuring itself, that is another area that time does not permit me at the present time to go into,so perhaps if I get back in time for the main budget speech J will have a chat with respect to that. MR. SHAI.LWOOD: Was it not suggested that it would be mostly bv_attrition? .. -7812

May 14, 1976, Tape 2716, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: Yes, but if it is going to be by attrition I just wonder, you know. I am thankful that it is going to be by attrition,·because this is the best way, obviously, to do it. But if you are going to have 500 people less by attrition or by any other means, is there going to have to be some reorganization of the government in order to cope with the lessening of the work force in the public service itself?

Because in relation it seems like a large number, certainly a necessary number, and all these steps are necessary to be taken - but I am just wondering whether it forewarns a restructuring of a mi~or or a major nature? As I say, I will speak about . that when I s~~k on the main subject. So, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt about it, I cannot vote for this motion, "This House regrets the failure of government to disclose completely and fully the present financial situation." I think that our government has dorte more to reveal financial situations than the previous government had.

It has done it in its borrowing bills, which will nezt come up - or will come up before we go - .and various other things.

But I do say this, that as much as the government has done with it, I would agree with the fact that we all ought to very much regret - and the people of this Province ought to very much regret - the fact that this House is by its procedures, let us put it that way, by it procedures as they apply, completely and absolutely ince.pable of completely and fully examining the present financial situation, l!lllking the people of this Prov.f.n~e aware of what the situation is, and to that extent we are failing and failing miserably unless we ~ke the changes to make this House- at least, relevant to some of the people in Newfoundland.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, some of the members on the other side of the House have had a lot to say, and when any human stands up to speak usually there is a grain of truth in what they say, or a phrase or a tincture or, as the Minister of Energy likes to say, a jot or a tittle. But I would like to suggest to this Rouse that there has been only that amount of truth in what they have been saying. 7813

M$y 14, 1976, Tape 2716, Pag~ 2 -- apb HR •• T. CARTER: And I am npw speaking to the amendment which reads, "To amend the motion by striking out all the words after 'that' and substitute therefore the following: 'This House regrets the failure of the government to disclose completely and fully the present financial situation of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and the g9vernment th~reof'." Now, Mr. Speaker, for those of you who are conversant with Canon Law, in order to commit a mortal sin there have to be three elements~ There has to be full knowledge, full consent,and a grievous matter. MR.

SMALLWOOD: And what? MR. J. CARTER: A grievous matter. A'grievous matter. A matter has to be grievous. has to be important, I think that we all agree that the present budget and any amendments thereto are certainly a grievous matter. But l would like to argue that the government did not have full knowledge, and that not everyone in the government, or in fact, anyone in the government,gives full consent to the situation that we find ourselves in, Therefore, although I intend to speak for a few minutes, I would like to propo~e a sub-amen~ent and speak to that. The sub-Bmendment, Mr.

Speaker, seconded ily the member from Mount Scio (Dr,Winsor), reads, adding to the amendment, "But realizing the difficult situation facing the Province, and in view of the complexity of the situation absolves the goverl!lllent from all blame.·" I have a copy for the Sp~ker. MR. SMALLWOOD: Beautiful! Handsome, beautiful, wise, true, profound! Just what the doctor ordered, but who is the doctor? HR. J. CARTER: Doctor 'Ray' Winsor. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that what all the laughing waa about here yesterday and last night? MR. J. CARTER: That was anather 11111tter. MR.

SPEAKER: I think I would ask for a five minute adjou~t to study this sub-amendment. 7811

May 14, 1976 Tape no. 2717 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will read the relevant

section of May, which is the same section, but I will have to read it at a somew~t greater length than I quoted last night dealing with amendments to questions-and dealing with sub-amendments as well. And th!s starts at page 379 at the bottom,"Object of an Amendment and Effect on Debate," and it is that paragraph which continues on the next page,380. "The object of an amendment may be either to modify a question in such a way as to increase its acceptability,or to present to the House a different proposition as an alternative to the original question.

The latter purpose may be effected by moving to omit all or most of the words of the question after the first word of'that' an~ to substitute in their place other words of a different _import. In that case the debate that follows is not restricted to the amendment, but includes the purpose both of the amendment and of the motion, both matters being unde,r the consideration of the House as alternative propositions." Honourable members will recall that this citation was quoted last night with respect to relevance on debate on the amendment.

"Now if it be intended only to modify the question by leaving out or adding words, debate should be restricted to the desirability of the omission or the addition of those words." In other words,this is a motion in the form of a sub-amendment which is relevant to the question which deals with the House regretting, government's disclosure of the financial situation. It is relevant to that. It is on that general subject. And it adds to it and modifies it. It is in my opinion an unusual, P!!rhaps, sub-amendment, but it is relevant.

It does not negate it 0 and in my opinion it is in.order, Being that kind of amendment I will just read again what is stated with respect to debate on it. 7815

Hay 14, 1976 Tape no. 2717 Page 2 - mw ~r. Speaker , "lf it be intended to modify the question by leaving out or adding words, debate should be restricted to the desirability of the om;l.ssion or tlle addition of those w0rds." So the sub-~endment in my opinion is in order. It is on the subject matter,or relevant. It is not a negation of what it proposes to amend, but that debate on it is more restricted• relevance here being the desirability, the reasons for or against the House's acceptance of the sub-amendment. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could we have copies of it? MR.

SPEAKER: I would ask the officm:a of the Houae to have them distributed. MR. J.CARTER:Mr. Speaker, could you please read it again. MR. SPEAKER: I will read it again. Moved by the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) and seconded by the hon. member for Mount Scio (Dr. R. Winsor). Moved and seconded that the following words be added to the amendment: "But realizing the difficult situation facing the Province, and in view of the complexity of the s;l.tuation,absolves the government from all blame." MR. J. CARTER: In other words, Mr.

Speaker, the theme of my remarka,in that case,will be, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do:• SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. NEARY: No wonder the hon. Premier would look up. MR. J.CARTEF: So the bon. me~ers mi~ht wish to comment on that aspect of the debate. I take the position, Mr. Speaker, that the financial condition of this Province is extremely grave, and it is for that reason that I objected to our salary increase, and why I continue to object, and will continue to 'reject the salary increase that was voted during the consideration qf the est~tes. 7816

May 14, 1976 Tape no. 2717 MR. STRACHAN: Would the hon. member permit? MR. J. CARTER: Yes. Page 3- mw MR. STRACHAN: Would you like to change districts and represent Labrador and live on the same salary and the same expenses? MR. __ J. CARTER: I agree that it is a great hardship,but if the hon. member will bear with me I think I can point out that to accept an increase at this time, for any of us to accept an increase at this time, is irresponsible. If you look at the budget itself under Finance, and you turn to the

section on the linerboard mill, you will see an amount this year under subhead 403 of