Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 7 (29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, March 16, 1972 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. IN TRODUCTION OF GUESTS 103 MR, SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 75 students of Grade 11 standing of the Wiridsor Park Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Geohegan. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Radisson. We also have six students of a secretarial science course from the Red River Community College. These students are under the direction of Mr. Okell.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Logan. We have 28 students of Grade 9 standing of the Lundar Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Messrs. Richardson and Budnick. This school is located in the con stituency of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. We also have 40 students of Grade 11 standing of the University of Winnipeg. These students are under the direction of Dean Rutherford, Mesdames Brydon and Anderson. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Matthews. On behalf of all the Honourable Members I welcome you here.

SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, with the consent of the honourable members may I give a ruling on the point of order raised yesterday by the Honourable Member for Morris on the matter of privilege on which the Attorney-General spoke. I thank the Honourable First Minister for contributing on the fine point of the matter. I have had the opportunity to consider the matter very closely and to look at precedent. Our Rule 24 states: "When a matter of privilege arises it shall be taken into consideration immediately,'' Beauchesne and Mays verify this. An alleged matter of privilege is a serious breach.

It is not always possible for honourable members to 1:aise a matter of privilege immediately for various reasons, Consequently the rules pertaining thereto should be applied with elasticity and wide latitude. Since there is no elaboration on our Rule 24 I have applied our general rule No. 2 which states: In all cases for which provision is not made in the rules or by sessional or other orders, the usages and customs of the House of Commons of Canada as enforced at the time shall be followed so far as they are applicable to the Assembly.

In the House of Commons the usage is that immediacy has been maintained except for extenuating circumstances or absences of the honourable member raising the alleged matter of privilege at the time it occurred. The Honourable the Attorney-General indicated he had been present but he had waited in order to confirm that he was certain of exactly what he had heard. Our rules are flexible enough so that he could have had an earlier opportunity to ascertain the correctness of the statement of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie by asking for clarification at the end of the honourable member's speech.

Accordingly, I must rule acceptance of the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Morris. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Minister ial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Labour. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour and Railway Commissioner) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Flfty-fourth Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission and the Administration of the Civil Service Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONARD A.

EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Eleventh Annual Report of the Manitoba Water Supply Board for the year ended March 31st, 1971; and I would also like to table the Annual Report for the year ending March 31st, 1971 of the Depar tment of Mines, Resources and Environmental Managem ent. I should add, Mr. Speaker, that copies will be in the mall to all members in a day or two.

104 March 16, 1972 MB. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Transportation. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, at this time I would like to table the Annual Re port of the Manitoba Highways for the year 1970-71; and also the Annual Re port of the Manitoba Telephone System for the year 1970-7 1. MB. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bi lls. Before we proceed to the oral questions I would like to make one announcement. I know we have had some difficult y with acoustics. I am assured that by Monday or Tuesday the situation will be rectified .

I hope that will aid those members who have bee n having difficulty with hearing and if they would hold in abeyance their requests for ear pieces until then to see how it turns out, we'll have another consideration of the situation at that time. Oral questions. The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MOTION OF CONDOLENCE HON.E DWARD SCHR EYER (Premier) (Rossmere) : Mr. Speaker, I rise at this time to undertake one of those practices and customs of this House that I'm sure honourable members will want to see continued.

I believe it is unique to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba that we do pause, take time out from our regular duties in order to pay tribute to those former colleagues of this Asse mbly who have passed away in the interval between this session and the previous one. And so today I would li ke to have members ' attention focused on the memory of the late Leonard Cl aydon who sat is this House for a period of some years, recent years, and who therefore is known to just about everybody present here today. Mr.

Claydon is a Qative son of this province; during his lifetime, too short a lifetime, having passed on at the age of 56, he nevertheless made quite a mark as a public servant. He served in the Armed Forces in defence of this country. He had worked during his lifetime at various jobs of importance. He had taken a great interest in civic affairs having served for a period of time on the Council of the City of Winnipeg and in those years had developed a repu tation as one who spoke rather forcefull y on a number of matters of public policy that were of interest to him.

I know that his passing is a matter of profound sadness to his famil y and also to all those who were coll eagues of his, and must surely be the same on the part of all thos e who knew him here. In addition to the things that I have already mentioned, during his years working with the Canadian Pacific Railway, with Trans-Canada Airlines , he developed an interest in the com munity which prompted him no doubt to give a lot of his personal time to historical commemora tive matters. It was Mr.

Cl aydon who was instrumental more than I suppose any one other person in the restoration of an old landmark such as the locomotive whic h be came quite a matter of local notice and tourist interest. But I mention that not because it looms so impor tant in all of the things that Mr. C laydon accomplished in his lifetime but because it is simply indicative of the man's varied interests. He participated in many community organizations having be en a member of the Roy al Canadian Legion and the Masonic Lodge in his community. For all of these reasons, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that all members would wish that a resolution of condolence b e conveyed to the famil y and accordingly I move, seconded by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, and in the presence, I might add, Mr. Speaker, in the presence of Mrs. Clay don who is in the gallery with us today, that this House convey to the family of the late Leonard Claydon who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their be reavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr.

Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MB. SPEAKER presented the motion. MB. SPEA KER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MB. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I am privileged to join the Fi rst Minister in seconding the resolution. The death of Leonard Cl aydon represents a loss to this House and a loss to public life in Manitoba. Leonard was a member of the Progressive Conservative Party, our legislative caucus.

But as all of us in this House join today in voicing our respect for his service to Manitoba and our _grief in his passing it's very clear that which side of the House a member sits on or what his views may be on a particular issue are not the important things . Sometimes be cause of the nature of this Chamber we place an overly -- we value at least on rhetoric and we tend to exaggerate in our own minds the conflicts and disagreements that exist between us. But all of us here are involved in the business of governing Manitoba, of trying to find the be st and the right things

March 16, 1972 105 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) . to do in our province and of representing and speaking for the citizens who make up Manitoba. We've lost a colleague and we understand that the loss is a loss to all of us. The occasion that we take as today to formally note the death of a member of this House are very solemn, they're solemn occasions, and they are much more than just empty form. They remind us all that in this House we share responsibilities and we are joined together, whatever our political differences in an important task and we are all asked to make common sacrifices.

Leonard Claydon made these sacrifices. He excelled at that part of a member's respon sibility that draws little notice from the press and sometimes little understanding from his colleagues. He spoke clearly and with sensitivity for the people he represented, for the people of Wolseley, just as he had spoken for many of them on the City Council of the City of Winnipeg.

And perhaps the greatest challenge facing all of us as members of this House, a challenge that grows more difficult as the activities of government grow and become more complex, is to assure that the parliamentary tradition, a tradition that strives through its elected members, gives every citizen access to the authority of government whether with grievance or request to assure that that tradition works in Manitoba. To meet that challenge we must be open to and attentive to the needs and wishes of each of our constituents.

Leonard Claydon met that challenge and the Premier has recorded some of the incidents that have been directly related to him and he gave that representation to the people he repre sented in Wolseley. The members of my caucus are proud to have worked with him, we miss him here in this House and to his widow Mrs. Claydon and to his family I join with the First Minister in offering formally the thanks of the people of Manitoba for your having shared this man with us and I offer my condolences and those of our entire caucus. Mr.

Speaker, let the record of this House show that while we who are members are sometimes carried away by our own bombasts are perhaps too often caught up in the heat of our own arguments, we share a consciousness of the difficulty of the task facing us and we share this respect for a man who has done that task well. The Honourable Member for Wolseley, Mr. Speaker, was a credit to this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate having been given the opportunity to speak on behalf of the members of our party on this condolence motion.

It was my pleasure and privilege to know Mr. Claydon on a personal basis and I have always admired him. I know he was a member in this House only for a short time but he was in public office for many years in this province and in this city and his record is outstanding and a r emarkable one to this city and province. I found him to be a warm person and enjoyed his cheerful human ity. Most important, Leonard Claydon was a doer, he had tbe capacity to get things done and everyone knew where he stood on diff erent issues. Mr.

Speaker, I regret the passing of this great Manitoban at still an early age and I wish to associate the Liberal Members with this motion of condolence to Mrs. Claydon and family. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I, too, wish to associate myself with what has already been said. The late Mr. Leonard Claydon certainly was a man of many qualities and I respect him very highly for his strong determination that he showed in this House. I really learned to appreciate the late Mr. Claydon for his being so well-principled and a man of conviction.

He was prepared to be counted when the test came. He was a very honourable member and one that you could rely on. He was also very able in expressing him self and making a very considerable contribution to the House on so many occasions. Certainly I would like to extend my sympathies and condolences to Mrs. Claydon and to members of her family. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Would the members please rise for the adoption of the motion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure if I have already mentioned the fact that Manitoba, the Legislative Assembly of this province is probably unique among all of the Provincial Legislatures in that we do take time to pay formal respect to former members who have passed on. In any case it's worth repeating and a custom that I sincerely hope will endure. I now refer to another former member of this House who served in this House for a period of approximately 26 or 27 years, the Late Edmond Prefontaine.

A member of this Assembly for the constituency of Carillon, a man who represented the people of that area over many years with devotion. I believe that there are only three members in this Assembly here

106 March 16, 1972 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ..... today who sat here as a colleague of Mr. Prefontafne in his time. I refer to the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney, the Honourable the Minister of Labour and myself, and the Honourable Member for Arthur. Mr. Prefontaine, to all those who knew him will be remembered as one who had a very great ability to introduce humour into this Assembly, a quality which I feel at times all of us here lack - all of us. Perhaps some of us more than others. But despite that, Mr. Speaker, it must also be said about the late Mr.

Prefontaine that with his quality or ability to introduce humour into debate he was also capable of introducing great feeling and emotion into the things he had to say in this assembly, and I'm sure he'll be remembered in that respect as well. He, too, like the late Leonard Claydon is a native son of this province, educated in Manitoba schools and the University of Manitoba; a man who raised a large family and who spent a good many years of his life as a farmer in the southeastern part of our province.

His family, in fact, both his father and himself, were active, in the full sense of the word, active, in the politics of our province for a period of time that transcended the better part of a century, and obviously, as anM LA and as a former Minister of Municipal Affairs, he did contribute usefully to the public life and progress of this province. There were some issues about which Mr. Prefontaine felt particularly strongly and I suppose, in retrospect, it could be said that on most issues Mr. Prefontaine held definite views. So we pay tribute, Mr.

Speaker, to a man whose life and career, it might be said, spanned two if not three generations. A man who did invoke the respect of people who knew him. A man who really represented perhaps as well as any one man could, represented those of our fellow citizens of Manitoba who are French speaking in language and in cultural heritage. And this was a matter of profound not only interest, but profound feeling to Mr.

Prefontaine that the linguistic heritage. and cultural heritage of Franco Manitobans would some how, some way, I'm sure he was no more sure than any of us are today, but would somehow, some way be sustained and nourished and somehow preserved for the future enrichment of this province. And because Mr. Prefontaine was one of those who did exercise the historic right in this Assembly of addressing the Assembly in the French language, I feel Sir, that it would be appropriate to commemorate his presence here in the past by doing likewise.

M. le President l'honorable Edmond Prefontaine fut un homme qui embrassa deux sinon trois generations. La courtoisie et le respect envers ses collegues qu'll apporta a la chambre etait malheureusementplus commune ac e temps la qu'aujourd'hui.

Sa ci carriere a aussi embrasse deux cultures 11 fut un des deputes de cette chambre qui exe rca son adroit historique en d'adressant l'assemble dans la langue francaise et il le faisait avec facilite tout comme tout naturellement une des sees presoccupations principales etait la suisurvie de la langue et de ses compatriotes Franco- Manitobains mais il ne se preoccuspait pas seulement uniquement des francais de notre province puisque son interets s'etendait a travers le Manitoba et etait de grande envergure comme etait d'ailleurs son sentiments tres vif d'humour et espiglerie inno cent.

J'al ete honore de le connaite j'espere d'une facon toute personnelle d'en conserver toujours une excellent souvenir. TRANSLATION: Mr. President. The Honourable Edmond Prefontaine was a man who embraced two if not three generations, in a lifetime. The courtesy and respect he had for his colleagues in this House was unfortunately more common then than it is now. And if his career encompassed two cultures, be was also one of the members of this Assembly who exercised his historic rights in addressing the Assembly in the French language, which he did with great facility.

Naturally, one of his principal preoccupations was the survival of the language and culture of his compatriots. His concern was however not confined to the Franco-Manitobans only, his interests and sentiments were far-reaching and included all Manitobans. I am deeply honoured to have known him and will always remember him. So, Mr.

Speaker, I should like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Carillon that this House convey to the family of the late Edmond Prefontaine who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . LEONARD A, BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr.

Speaker, I am honoured to be associated with the motion that the First Minister has just introduced. The Honourable Mr. Edmond Prefontaine was a man very dear to the hearts of many. Although quite a political

March 16, 1972 107 (MR. BARKMAN cont'd) ..... man, he very seriously dedicated many of his services to humanity. Perhaps sometimes one might think that he gave the female sex a slight priority, however, when it came to debating and when debating in these Chambers as the members that sat with him, will remember, regardless of what sex or what political parties were involved, he liked to be a winner and very often was. Mr. Speaker, I may be a bit more lengthy than is customary on occasions like this but I think we're speaking of a very extraordinary human being. Mr.

Prefontaine's family, Including father and son, held the seat of Carlllon for a total of 58 years, Mr. Edmond Prefontalne served the constituency from 1935 to 1962. He took his father's seat in the by-election of that year following his father, the Honourable Albert Prefontaine1s death. Mr. Edmond Prefontalne was possibly one of the more colourful members that this House has ever seen, and I admit that there have been quite a few. His humble practical and sensible approach to people and to problems made him a very popular member.

The majority of his constituents would rise to great heights in defense of their beloved member. Probably few people in life enjoy the popularity that was bestowed upon this member. He was also one of the few members that won a seat in 1945 by acclamation, He was one of the first members of this Chamber in the 1949 Session that felt strongly against coalition government. He then joined the Manitoba Democratic Party but later became a member of the Progressive Liberal Party. Mr. Prefontaine was known as a IDllll who stood on his convictio ns.

He was a first one to propose a motion that the liquor laws be investigated for the purpose of updating them. In 1951, Mr. Prefontaine was sworn in as Minister of Municipal Affairs and in this capacity amended the Municipal Act to provide for exemption from taxes for schools meeting the re quirements of the School Attendance Act. He also introduced

an act allowing municipalities to exempt certain religious properties from taxation. Probably one of the most noted things known to his many friends in southeastern Manitoba, especially those In the dairy industry, was the time when he became known as the father of the Manitoba Milk Control Act. One of the most dramatic moments in his life was in the 1951 Session of the Legislature in a well prepared speech lasting longer than an hour -and perhaps some of the members will remember tha.t speech- Mr. Prefontaine lashed out at the International Wheat Agreement.

While he was known as one of the better orators as mentioned before, reporters agree that this was one of his best speeches that he ever delivered in this House. A few hours after that he fell into a coma from which he did not emerge for approximately two weeks, but he did come back, retained his seat in the remaining 1953- 158 and 1959 elections. In 1962, due to health_ reasons, he retired from politics. In 1968 he entered the St. Bonlface Hospital and later was moved to the Stelnbach Nursing Care Home, Ironically on the 23rd of June being the Federal election day.

He stayed in the home till June loth, 1970 when he was moved closer to most of his family in the East or at Quebec City. Probably the other greatest moment of his life was in 1961 when he was declared a member of the Order of St. Gregory. The Prefontaine family lived a very devoted family life. Mrs. Prefontaine never being one overly enthused about politics, should be complimented for sharing so much of her married life in easing the burdens of the responsibility of her husband. Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Liberal Party in Manitoba and myself, we are indeed happy to endorse the resolution of condolence just introduced by the Honourable First Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIEL GffiARD (Emerson): . (Mr. Girard spoke in French. Will appear in later Hansard) Mr. Prefontaine, gave a good deal of his life to make Manitoba better. He was a man of sound judgment; a man respected by all groups, political or cultural, a man of unquestionable credibility.

He provided the communication link between cultural groups in Manitoba, especially that of the Francophone and the Mennonlte group with the rest of the Manitobans as they met in this Chamber. I was very Impressed by the comments made by our Premier when he suggested that he brought to this Chamber some sense of humour and emotion. May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that he was only being a typical and true French Canadian. This warm and human man was typical of our group and we are proud to have had him as one of our leaders. His passing is a deep loss felt by his family and Manltobans.

His contribution should never be forgotten in Manitoba's history. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Rhineland,

108 March 16, 1972 MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I too wish to add a few remarks to what has already been said. The late Mr. Edmond Prefontaine was a man with many interests and he showed a great interest in life itself. Anyone associating with him really enjoyed his association and wherever you were in company with him. Having spent three years in the House with him together here as members of the Assembly, I really learned to appreciate the late Mr. Prefontaine.

We as members were looking forward to his speeches whenever he did make a contribution to this House· and he did so quite freely and often, and he was very interesting. He has made a very large contribution to the life of this province as a member, as a Minister of the Crown, and also had great interest in the field of education. For many years he served in the work of education and in the School Trustees' work of this province. He was known throughout the province as a school trustee worker and having served on that association as a director for a long time. Mr.

Speaker, we also appreciate him as a family man, one who reared a family and who as members of the family also made a very considerable contribution to this province. We know his son very well indeed, as most members do, and I think this speaks well of any public man in public life to be able to bring up a family that brings honour to the parents. At this time I, too, would like to associate myself with the resolution of condolence and express my personal sympathies to the bereaved family. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. LAURENT L.

DESJARDINS (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (St. Bonlface): Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to delay the business of the House but I feel that I also should assolliate myself with this resolution presented by the First Minister, and I must also make a correction to the statement of the First Minister. Mr. Speaker, as well as the Member from Rhine land I had the good fortune and the pleasure of sitting in this House with Mr. Prefontaine during the last four years of office of Mr. Prefontaine. It was a pleasure, he always was ready to assist me with his advice and with his encouragement.

It is ironic that we should be speaking of Mr. Prefontaine at this time, where finally it appears that a real effort will be made to remedy the infamous Manitoba School question. This is something that was very close to his heart and I am sure that he would be most happy to know that finally there will be a good discussion on this subject to try to arrive at a solution. (Mr. Desjardins spoke in French. It will appear in a later Hansard. ) MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable Members please rise for the adoption of the motion? ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Finance or as the Acting Minister of Urban Affairs. I wonder if he would inform the House whether he has been informed either by the Mayor or Members of Unicity Council at what likely mill rate will be struck for new taxes for the Unicity in the coming year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.C. (Minister of Finance) (St. Johns): No, Mr.

Speaker, I have the general impression even from reading the newspaper that they haven't yet reached that stage. MR. SPIV AK: A supplementary question. I wonder if the Minister of Finance can in dicate whether he has given to the mayor or to the members of the Unicity Council the basis of the equalization formula or what additional contribution will be given by the province to wards taxation for the Unicity for this coming year. MR.

CHERNIACK: I'm not clear whether the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is speaking about the grants that are proposed in regard to cushioning the impact of the equali zation to those people affected by the equalized assessment. If that's what he's speaking of, then that has nothing to do with the budget, that has to do with the individuals. MR. SPIVAK: Well, I wonder if there has been any indication given by the Provincial Government to the Unicity Council of any additional funds to be contributed by them towards taxation for the coming year. MR.

CHER NIACK: The City of Winnipeg Council has the responsibility of striking its budget. It also has all the information I assume which it requires, and if it doesn't have it can get information regarding the various contributions or grants or other payments which

March 16, 1972 109 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) . are made by the provincial government based on previous year's knowledge. They are knowledgeable people, no doubt they are aware of that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Subsequent to that, are there any studies being undertaken now or tentative plans to offset the increases of the several municipalities. MR, CHERNIACK: • • . MR. MOUG: Well to offset the increases in the municipalities, such as you drew up in your first white paper on the proposal for Unicity. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I thought I made it clear that these are proposed grants to be made for the benefit of individual taxpayers that are affected. Studies are still going on in regard to the formula. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): . Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Attorney General. Is this NDP youth, Nick Ternette who is receiving $4, 800 under the Provincial Employment Program, the same man who caused the trouble at the Rock Festival and had to be apprehended by the police and later brought charges against the police. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please.

I do entertain questions but not information via a ques- tion. The Honourable Member can rephrase his question. MR. HENDERSON: My question is, is this the same youth? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A, H. MACKLING, Q,C, (Attorney-General a'ld Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (St. James): I am not certain whether it is the same one. I think that the honourable member presupposed it is and I think he is probably correct. MR. HENDERSON: I have a subsequent question. What was the result of the charges that he laid against the police at that time ? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR . JOSEPH P, BOROWSKI (Thompson): I wonder if the Premier could inform the House who is responsible for authorizing this grant of $4800 to this deadbeat Ternette? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. I should like to indicate to all mem bers, since we are on the question period, I cautioned them all in regard to questions last year and, of course, answers as well, and the first item that was on that sheet -and any mem ber that wishes it, can get it from me or else he can get it out of Beauchesne but I'll just re fer to it once more.

It says: "In putting a question, a member must confine himself to the narrowest limits in making a question. Observations which might lead to debate cannot be regarded as coming within the proper limits of a question. The purpose of a question is to obtain information and not to supply it to the House. A question oral or written must not be ironical, rhetorical, offensive or contain epithets, innuendoes, satire or ridicule". I think that should be warning enough to most members. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood, MR. MOUG: Mr.

Speaker, I would follow that advice and keep this question as short as I can; it has a slight

preamble and I would like to direct it to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. The Charleswood Branch of the Royal Canadian Legion is hosting the Legion Dominion Curling Finals, the week of the 20th to 25th. Could you tell me lf the government will be par ticipating financially on this occasion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Recreation and Cultural Affairs. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member could repeat his question. I know that he's talking about financial assistance but I didn't get the first part of it. MR . MOUG: Thanks, I welcome the opportunity to repeat this.

The Charleswood Branch of the Royal Canadian Legion will be hosting the Dominion Curling Finals in Charles wood in the week of March 2oth to 25th. Will the government be participating financially into this ... l\1P., DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, this request is under consideration at the moment. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood, a suppieme ntary? MR. MOUG: Is the Minister aware that they received a letter of refusal? MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. I think I have indicated on occa sions that a Minister's awareness is not important to this House, The Honourable Member for Arthuro

llQ March 16, 1972 MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Chairman, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation along the same line. Could the Minister tell us if capital grants are available and to what extent for construction of recreational fa cilities throughout the province. MR. DESJARDINS: There is no grant at the moment for capital cost but there probably will be a program that will be announced to the House fairly soon. Mr.

Speaker, if I may add to the first question, that the request was originally turned down and then we are trying to see if there is another avenue that could be explored and this is what I say when it is under consid eration. MR. WATT: My question again is to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. On the bulletin of February 25th Mr. Desjardins emphasized that while a heavy input of government money ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Would the honourable member state his question. MR.

WATT: My question is, is this statement correct, this bulletin put out by your de partment, saying that building recreational, facilities funds will be available, building recre ational facilities. MR. DESJARDINS: The statement, the way it's presented now is not correct. If it was a statement that I can understand I could reply to the Honourable Member. MR. WATT: I think this is my second supplementary question. There is no capital grants towards facilities for recreation in the Province of Manitoba at this time, correct? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question to direct to the First Minister. Is the government or Manitoba Hydro considering abandoning the Missi Falls damsite on South Indian Lake? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, there have been continuing engineering studies made of alternative means of diverting a certain quantity of flow from the Churchill River into the Nelson River. Among the various contingency alternative studies, there is a proposal which does include the possibility of the discontinuation of the concept of a dam at Missi Falls, at the northeastern outlet of Southern Indian Lake.

MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is this the damsite that is being considered for Apachewana Lake, the exit between Apachewana Lake and South Indian Lake? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member means is the abandon ment of the Missi Falls dam contingent upon the acceptance of a dam structure at the lake which he named, then the answer is yes, but I must point out to my honourable friend that this is so far all based on alternative contingency engineering studies, no decision has been made, so it all remains, at least for the meantime, hypothetical. MR.

CRAIK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the First Minister tell us what resource and engineering studies are presently being pursued with regard to this particular site, between these two lakes? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, engineering studies are being continually carried out on various alternatives, and my colleague reminds me is part of the Federal Provincial Resource study, this is included as well. May I, perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, I am indulging too much on your patience by giving pro tracted answers, but I would like to point out to the Honourable Member for Riel that the other alternative that he mentioned really involves no more raising of the water level on Churchill River upstream from Southern Indian Lake than if the dam were built at Missi Falls, so I fail to see what his concern is. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member has had two supplementaries. The Honourable Member for R iel. MR.

CRAIK: Part of my last question was whether specific engineering studies were underway a:1d could he indicate whether Hydro is examining this, or is there an outside con sulting firm that is presently examining it? MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Minister of Labour. Can the Minister of Labour advise the House how many employees will be laid off as a result of consolidation by Johns-Manville Company to British Columbia.

March 16, 1972 111 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I have no information, but I would be glad to accommodate my honourable friend if he would give me the name of the firm and the exact propo sition. MR . PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary. Can the Minister tell us or is he aware how many employees will be laid off.as a result of the Union Carbide consolidating to British Columbia. MR . PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am able to supply the information to my honourable friend and to the House.

I regret, and I'm sure all members in the House regret that there is a curtailment of employment at this company. I do want to express my personal appreciation to the management of the company in informing the Department of Labour prior to the official or public announcement of what their plan was. We had a discussion and it seems to me to be one of those areas where there may be justification. Fift y-- four employees will be affected, 41 of these 54 are hourly paid, 13 are staff people. Wage rates are of about $1. 60 per hour and the employees affected are largely machine operators.

The company officials have been in touch with Canada Manpower, the Unemployment Insurance Commission and the Department of Labour so that the services of those laid off will be relocated as quickly as possible. It is anticipated that the term of the layoff will be over about a nine-month period so that there's no immediate impact respecting the whole complete number. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Honourable Minister for his answer but I have another supplementary in another area.

Has the Minister had any discussions or consultations with the Federal Grain people. I understand some 740 will be laid off and many of these will be losing their jobs. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that my honourable friend will appreciate that in the general area of the grain trade it's a federal responsibility rather than under pro vincial labour laws.

I was happy to offer the services of the Department of Labour and one of the senior officers of the Department of Labour to work out a plan of realloca tion, retraining of the employees affected in Federal Grain and a member of the staff of the Department of Labour is on a committee set up with Canada Manpower consultative services to see what can be done. That committee, Mr. Speaker, is functioning as of now. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce.

In acknowledging the sale of approximately 185 millions of bushels of grain to Russia I wonder if the Minister could indicate how many millions will be directed through the Port of Churchill this year? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EV ANS: Mr. Speaker, I would be very very happy and pleased if I could provide that information to the honourable member but as he full well knows this is a matter for Federal Government administration.

I can only say that I hope as much as possible will be directed through Churchill; and not only that I can assure you that we will be making full representation to Ottawa to make sure that there will be maximum usage of the Port of Churchill, the finest port in Canada. MR . BEARD: A supplementary question. Would the Minister consider making personal representation to the Russian Embassy in Ottawa on behalf of Manitoba's Port of Churchill? If he would I will assure him that I'll pair for him. MR . EV ANS: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that under advisement.

I'll do my very best to make what I would consider the adequate representation; at least if not being there in person I'll do my very best to assure there be adequate representation. If he'd like to pair, my honourable friend suggests I fly to Moscow, but it may take a while. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Finance. Will the Honourable Minister make available to honourable members a copy of the latest interim financial statement.

Perhaps it could be the calendar year one - end of 1971 - which would contain the necessary essentials and that is also available to him. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CHERNIACK: If I knew what the Honourable Member for Rhineland was talking

112 March 16, 1972 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) ••..• about I would be better able to respond. He said the state ment for '71. If he means the statement for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1971, then of course he must have that. If he means the statement ending March 31, 1972, then I haven't got it either. MR. FBOESE: I think, Mr. Speaker, the question was for an interim, interim statement. Up to the end of the calendar year 1971. Surely information must be available to the Minister. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, we operate on a cash basis and there may be infor mation available such as I recall was given to the Economic Review Committee which wasn't terribly meaningful but I'll look into seeing just what it is after I read Hansard and have my Deputy Minister read Hansard to see what could be made available as a help to the Member for Rhine land. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. �ffi. CY GONICK (Crescentwood): A question to the Minister of Labour. Is the Minister ablt: to advise the House how many workers have been laid off or are being laid off at the Catalogue Department of the T.

Eaton Company? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. GONICK: A supplementary question. Would the Minister of Labour agree to investi gate to see if this is occurring and how many workers are aff ected? MR. PAULLEY: I will do my utmost to obtain the information, Mr. Speaker, but I think that at this stage it should be clearly understood that industry in the Province of Manitoba are not required to report layoffs to the Minister of Labour or as far as I am aware to anyone else. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR.

GONICK: A question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Mfairs. In view of the many complaints about the ineffectiveness of the office of the Rentalsman is the Minister taking steps to add to its staff to redirect its efforts so as to become more effective ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the question is based on certain assumptions I disagree with. Those problems that are brought to the attention of the Rentalsman's office have been handled with despatch.

I will be reporting during the course of my Estimates on the work of the department and its manner of handling complaints. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. J. R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave of the House to make a very brief statement? MR. SPEAKER: Leave granted? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BOYCE: A few moments ago, Mr. Speaker, a few remarks were made and my immediate reaction at the time was to respond in kind, but I would like to put on the record that Mr.

Ternette is President of the Winnipeg Centre constituency organization for the New Democratic Party. I disagree with much that Mr. Ternette -- I'm sorry I'm still angry - there is much that I disagree with with what Mr. Ternette says and with what Mr. Ternette does. I regret very much that the rules of this House are such that when innuendoes and slanders are hurled that there is no way of expunging the record.

I, for one, had five years taken out of my life serving in the navy of this country to defend the right of a person to hold whatever political view he wanted and to work wherever he wanted if he was so qualified; and I will de fend in this House or anywhere else the right of any individual in this country to do so. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege.

I don't think that a mem ber, at least as I understand the rules, has a right to rise on implying that he wants to make a simple statement and then use that as an opportunity to rebut something that someone said or a question that someone asked. I will match my record of tolerance against his anytime and I re sent the fact that he would use that •.• MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member was starting to debate the issue. He stated that he wanted to discuss a matter of privilege, I allowed him to proceed, but that is not licence to debate what takes place. Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Can the Minister confirm that there have been any discussions

March 16, 1972 (MR. JENKINS cont'd) . between the Commission of Inquiry on Automobile Insurance in the Province of Quebec and officials of Autopac? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. 113 HON. HOWARD R" PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Commissioner of Northern Affairs) (Selkirk): There have been discussions, Mr. Speaker, but those discussions involved the managerial administrative people at Autopac and not discussions at the political level. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR" PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. I would like him to answer yes or no. Is the ... MR" SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. I should like to indicate to the honour able member that there is nothing in our rules that indicates a Minister has to answer, and even less in what fashion he has to answer. So would the honourable member place his ques tion in the proper form. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I agree with you. It's the type of question that has been raised to me by some of my constituents and that's the reason I'm placing it to the Minister.

Is the Chairman of MDC a non-resident of Manitoba and commutes to his home in Montreal on week-ends? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the Chairman of the Manitoba Development Corporation has a residence in Winnipeg but he does commute frequently to Montreal. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I don't think my question has been answered. I'm really interested. Is he a resident of Winni peg full time ? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the Honourable Member for Emerson asked me re textbook order forms and I wish to advise him that these are normally sent during the first week of June. No doubt they will reach the schools in ample time again this year as in past and although an unusually large number of new author izations have recently been made it's anticipated that the forms will again be available during the first week. With respect to other books and materials well orders for those supplies can be submitted to the Textbook Bureau at any time. MRo SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to thank the Minister for his information. I wish though to respond to his comment by saying that it ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. This is a question period. The honourable member welllmows that. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L, R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister and ask him if he would undertake to obtain from the Honourable Member for Thompson his list of sloppy and incompetent ministers and those that are getting away with murder. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please.

I don't lmow whether the acoustics are that bad that what I read out in regards to the question period didn't come through but I was hoping I would get the co-operation of all the members. I can assure them that by Monday they will all have a copy on their desks. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I was earlier today regretting the fact that there wasn't enough humour in this Chamber and I can see that the Member for Fort Garry is trying to make up for that all by himself. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Health could indicate how much extra funds were allocated to Mount Carmel Clinic in 1971. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Education has the answer to the question I asked him the day before yesterday? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I had indicated to the honourable member at that time

114 March 16 , 1972 (MR. HANUSCH AK con t'd) •. •.•• that I would take that question as notice and it still remains as notice until such time as the information requested for can be ascertained with some degree of accuracy. I'm sure that the honourable member realizes that we will not have that information for a couple of years , until we rece ive the statements after all the grants have been paid out, and therefore at this point I am not prepared to speculate on the distribu tion of grants, urban vis-a-vis rural. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J.

WALLY MCKENZIE (Roblin): I have a question for the Minister of Tourism and Re creation. Will the Minister be releasing the 1972 copies or the edition of the Vacation Handbook to us, the members of the Legislature ? MR. SPEAKER: .The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation, MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Speaker , I am sure that could be arranged. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Co=erce. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, the other day the Honourable Member from Assiniboia asked me a question regarding the reduction of the interest rate for the Flyer Industries Limited loan; the question being was it reduced from 10 3 /4 to 8 3/4 percent, and the answer is yes. MB. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. Will the same consideration be given to all the other fir ms that are holding MDC loans at the present time ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Co=erce. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker , this opportunity is avaifable to any firm that loans from the MDC. They have every opportunity on the face of God's earth to negotiate interest rates that they think are equitable and reasonable as far as they're concerned. And these companies are also free, of course , to go to private financial institutions if they wish to have more favourable rates. ORDERS OF THE DAY - THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for St.

Vital and the amendment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition and the further amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable Member for Point Douglas. MR. DONALD MALINOWSKI (Point Douglas): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to congratulate my colle agues who have been appointed to cabinet posts since the last session. I wish them success and feel confident they will give a good account of themselves in this challenging position. I also offer my congratulations to the new Member for Minnedosa and welcome him in this Assembly.

My sincere congratulations are also extended to the mover , the Honourable Member for St. Vital, and seconder, the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose , to the Speech from the Throne. I believe both of them made worthy contributions to the debate in this Chamber. I hope, Mr. Speaker, all honourable members on both sides of the House will endorse the general aims of the government outlined in the Throne Speech to bring about greater equality in our society, achieve a fairer distribution of the material things of life , and in general to improve the human situation.

A new Labour Code , increases in workmen's com pensation, minimum wage improvements, these are a few of the steps in that dire ction. They should have the support of all honourable members. Senator Croll has become an expert on poverty in Canada. In a recent statement he said the reason so many people are poor in Canada is because they cannot earn enough money. We hardly needed an expensive Senate investigation to find it out. The present government should be co=ended for having lost no time in raising the minimum wage to one of the highe st in Canada.

For I am sure, many of the poor would earn even less money if there were no such protective legislation as minimum wage laws. I was glad to note that further improvements in this field are forec ast in the Throne Speech. Both the National Leader of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister Trudeau often talk about a need for increasing consumption in order to stimulate production and provide more jobs. It stands to reason that the only way you can stimulate consumption is to raise the level of incomes of the four million or so Canadians now living at or below the poverty

March 16, 1972 115 (MR. MALINOWSKI Cont'd) ..... level. Surely by now, all honourable members must recognize the chief defect of a private enterprise economy. It is the ca pability of flooding the market with goods of all descriptions but it can never generate enough buying power among the people to enable them to buy all they need of what is so plentiful on the market. Re cently, the newspapers headlined the fact that Cana da's gross national product may reach the hundred billion mark. But what does it mean to an old age pensioner in Po int Douglas who can only buy what his small pension will let him ?

What does it mean to the poor to be living in the country which is one of the greatest food producers, if their sm all incomes don't allow them to buy enough for their families ? What does it mean to be living in the com munity where the supermarkets are filled to the rafters with goods, but your pockets are empty ? Businessm en in Ca nada spend around $1 billion a year in advertising trying to per suade people to buy more goods of every kind.

There are a lot of people in Point Douglas and in the constituencies of other honourable members who would be only too glad to buy more if they had more in their wallets to buy with. Some honourable members opposite have been greatly concerned about people with estates of over $200, 000. I believe we should be more concerned about those who are shut out from our s<r-called affluent soc iety. I commend the government for having undertaken various projects to provide jobs.

There is some satisfaction in knowing that unemployment in this province is lower than the national level but with over 600, 000 unemployed, there is no room for complacency of any level of government. Honourable members opposite are strongly opposed to governments entering business or interfering with business. Logically, in a private enterprise economy the major responsibility for coping with unemployment should rest with private business. But private business has so far failed to accept this responsibility.

Government entry into business and government intervention in the economy is therefore not only justified but absolutely es sential. Mr. Speaker, I am not normally in the habit of preaching sermons on economics but I may be excused for stressi ng some of these points on this occasion. I represent a constituency where the people know what poverty and unemployment is. These people appreciate and sup port any move , this or any other government can make to give them a better deal. Under previous administrations Point Douglas became one of the most neglected urban areas in this province.

Of course we weren't entirely neglected. They did leave Point Douglas with one of the ugliest scra p iron yards that a community could be afflicted with. The Point Douglas people wouldn't mind trading it off to some other constituency -- possibly Ri ver Heights -- in exchange for many other things we in Point Douglas would rather have. My constituents appreciate what this government has already done in Point Douglas for the Senior citizens, and will naturally apprecia te further improvements .

A group of people from the Norquay Senior Citizens Club have prepared a brief which has been presented to thl Honourable, the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I will not go into details , but in general the brief is concerned with more senior citizens residences -- senior citizens day centres -- and senior citizens experimental housing. They put a lot of work and study into this brief, and in my view it contains many practical suggestions. Although I am well aware there are many parts of this province requiring urgent con sidera tion, I hope the government will keep Point Douglas high on the priority list.

Much more needs to be done in housing and re-development of this long neglected community. I hope , Mr. Speaker, I may be excused for interjecting a slight partisan note in my speech at this point. It arises out of what has been said by the leader of tre Liberal Party (I hope he's around here som ewhere and listening.) A MEMBER: Which one ? MR . MALINOWSKI: In the gallery. In one of the many statements he has been making lately he sa id this government wasn't doing enough in the field of housing. Housing is such an important matter I don't think any government ca n ever do too much in this field.

But I must remind Honourable members the New Dem ocratic Party Government has only been in power for less than three years,

whereas the parties now sitting on the other side of the house had been in power for close to a hundred years. The party now being led by Mr. Asper, from the outside , had prior to its dec line been in power continuously for half a century. From Premier Norris to Br acken to Stuart Garson to Premier Cam pbell we had fifty years of continuous Liberal Governments in this

116 March 16, 1972 (MR. MALINOWSKI Cont'd) ..... province. If the quality of the homes people lived in depended on the government's regard for housing, and the length of time governments had bee n in power, then Manltobans should have bee n among the be st housed in the world -- long before the New Democratic Party Government came to power. On another occasion the Manitoba Liberal leader said this government -- not the Liberal Government at Ottawa - should give more money to the old age pensioners. A man in Mr. Asper's position cannot plead ignorance of provincial-federal arrange ments.

He must know old age pensions are a federal res ponsibility. The New Democratic Group in Ottawa has bee n carrying on a consistent and relentless campaign to get the pension raised. The objective of the New Democratic Party, on the federal level , has be en to secure for senior citizens economic security with dignity. The curr ent dem and the New Democratic Party is making in ottawa is an increase in the basic old age pension to $150 a month. This, surely, is a modest enoug h objective. But even this the Liberal Government refuses to grant.

The last increase in the basic old age pension was from $79. 58 to $80 a month -- an increase of 42 cents I This was a big joke and a cruel joke. If Mr. As per is concerned about senior citiz ens he ought to get after his Liberal colleagues in ottawa to get action on this. Of course he has marle statements to the effect that he wants to separate the Manitoba Liberal Party from the federal Liberal Party - so he won't have to accept res ponsibility for what the federal Liberals in Ottawa do. But this is hardly a responsible position for the leader of a party to take.

I'm sure when we get the New Democratic Party Government in ott awa, the Honourable member s opposite will not allow members of this government to dissoci ate themselves from accepting responsibility for what is being done in ottawa. Of course, I feel convinced th at with the New Democratic Party Government in ottawa, co-operating with the New Democratic Party Government in this province, much more could be accomplished towards the cr eation of a just society. Under present circumstances no other government in this province ever faced great opposition.

We have two opposition parties, two newspapers that are more in clined to be hostile rather than fair and im partial. In Ottawa, where the major initiatives for social change should come from, we have a Liberal government which seems more con cerned about the wishes of big business than the welfare of the people. The establishment of Autopac was a major project of this government. No fair-minded person should have expected a project of this magnitude to become operative without a few kinks and problems.

But I'm convinced - and the Saskatchewan experience has proven - that in short order Autopac will , as the Throne Speech promised, be working "A-O. K. " It will provide the motorists and the general public with greater protection and less cost. But before leaving this topic I would like to, in a kindly way, call to the attention of honourable members on the other side of the House an item I read about auto insurance in the United States. As you know,, there private enterprise insurance still has a free hand.

An item in Time Magazine points out - and I' m quoting it -- that "legal costs and sales expenses eat up 56 cents of every dollar paid for auto insurance premiums ". Further more it is pointed out in the Time

article -- and again I'm quoting - "More than half the suits growing out of auto accidents take two years or longer to come to trial". During this long wait the victims of car accidents often face staggering medical bil ls , but they are left to cope as best they can. I'm sure these people would be only too glad to have the protection of Autopac -- even if they had to wait an hour or so when something goes wrong with the conr puter.

While I'm on this , I would also like to call to the attention of the honourable members the disturbances and complaints about the long delays in securing unemployment insurance benefits. I'm sure this is causing far greater hardship to the unemployed than some of the slight delays in the early stages of Autopac. Unemployment Insurance has be en in effect for many years. There is less excuse for del ays than is the case with a new project of the magnitude of Autopac. I am mentioning this, Mr.

Speaker , not by way of be ing critical of the Federal Govern ment - I am only mentioning it to impress upon honourable members on the other side of the House the need for maintaining things in proper perspective. I would like to think of them as reasonable people. Much can be done in the months ahead to make Autopac a smooth functioning scheme that will greatly benefit all concerned. I appeal to all honourable member s never to stop criticising but let their criticism be objective and constructive, rather than

March 16, 1972 117 (MR. MALINOWSKI Oont'd) .••.. partisan and destructive. I appeal to their sense of fair play. Their parties had been In power for almost one hundred years of this province's exis tence. The New Democratic Party Government has only been in power fo r less than three years. They shouldn't expect us to create Instant Utopia. I believe the government is to be commended for increased efforts promised In the Throne Speech In securing jobs for students, also the promise of additional finds In the way of bursaries.

I was also glad to note that additional funds will be available for extending programs deali ng with the serious problems of alcoholism and drug addiction. I believe, in a sense, unemployment among youth and drug addiction go toget her. We must bear in mind unemployment is highest among the young. Lack of opportunity fo r the exer cise of their talents and energies and the Inability to earn the money for a normal life presents youth with a bleak outlook. Prolonged periods of unemployment, and all the fr ustrations entailed, may well lead many to alcohol and drugs.

I, and the people I represent In Point Douglas, are greatly concerned about this problem. We welcome efforts from any direction to cope with this. I took particular note, Mr. Speaker, of one sentence in the Throne Speech which "recommends that the dogmatic attitudes of the past be left behind". I'm not denying that we on this side can be quite dogmatic. We hold certain views, and hold them firmly. But no group of people anywhere could be more dogmatic than the members of the Opposition.

They are adamant in their stand that private enterprise is best under all circumstances and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them from this stand. This was not only re vealed in the bitter debates on auto Insurance, but on every proposed reform. Whether there are half a million unemployed or a million; whether there are four million Canadians living in poverty or double that number; whether the country prospers or is in a depression; they keep on telli.rig us that private enterprise is best. Their minds seem closed to any other ideas.

But not all supporters of private enterprise are quite as dogmatic as some honourable members in this House. The United States is faced with even greater problems than we are. Some of the leaders of business and industry in that country are no longer sb sure that the grim economic problems facing that country can be solved the private enterprise way . I would like to call to the attention of honourable members an

article which appeared In Time magazine In the issue of February 14th. Time magazine is not a radical paper; it has nothing In common with the magazine edited by the Honorable Member for Crescentwood. But in this issue of Time magazine the question is raised and I quote: "Does fr ee enterprise have much of a future?" And In the

article In question there is speculation as to what might replace free enterprise. It is pointed out in the

article and I'm quoting, "The government will become a sterner policeman of private enterprise". There will be more and more government Inter vention In business and economy. Furthermore, the

article points out that many leading businessmen In the United states have become reconciled to the fact that that is unavoidable. And the

article concludes, and again I'm quoting: "The capitalist economy may thus eventually take on some featur es of socialism". Honourable members, we are living in a rapidly changing world. It is imperative that we adopt policies to keep up with the changing times. I agree we shouldn't be too dogmatic or too doctrinaire in our attitudes to others, particularly as it concerns our functions In this House. However far to the left some of us may be, the limitations of provincial power sets and limits the changes and reforms we can bring about.

I believe this government, in the short time it has been in off ice, has already made a good start in initiating many beneficial reforms. I hope we can get the co-operation of all honourable members in exploring further possibilities to bring about still greater improvements in all aspects of �ife in this province. Mr. Speaker, I normall y preach my sermons in church, but on this occasion I would like to close with a short sermon to the honourable members of the Opposition. I am in this party because of my humanitarian feelings for my fellowmen.

But I don't think we on this side have a monopoly of- humanitarianism. I'm sure honourable members opposite also have their humanitarian side. I would like to during the course of this session see more of their humanitarianism come through. I hope they will give us their support in whatever measures we can adopt to raise the standard of living of those at the depressed level, to do all we can to make life a little more tolerable for the aged. Perhaps In addition to building more senior citizens homes, and giving them ten cent bus fare s, we may possibly also provide them with free drugs.

Possibly we may also free all old age pensioners from paying the Medicare

118 March 16, 1972 (MR. MALINOWSKI Cont'd) , ... ,p remiu ms. These are only my suggestions. In this, as with many other proposals, we are of course faced wi th the questio n of what is possible within the limitations of provincial financing, I hope Honourable Members of the Opposition will also give us their co-operation in exploring and undertaking many forms of development that will create job opportunities and improve our communi ti es.

The Honourable the Leader of the Conservative Party as well as the Leader of the Liberal Party, have often expressed the view that it is important that we create in this pro vince a climate that will be favorable to business. That might be so. But I be lieve it is more important that we create a climate that will enhance the general well-being of the majority of people in our respective constituencies, Thank you, Mr. Speaker and honourable memb ers. . , , , . continued on next page

March 16, 1972 119 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minned osa. MR. DA VID R, BLAKE (Minne dosa): Mr. Speaker, I bring greetings to you, Sir, and to all the honourable members of this Cham ber from the people of the Minnedosa constitue ncy. My constituen cy , as you are well aware , has been ably represented for the past fourteen ye ars by Walter Weir, a man who devoted a good many years of his life to public service and made a significant contribution to his constituency and to the province.

The people of Minnedosa con stituency are proud to have been represented for so many ye ars by a man of the calibre of Walter Weir and I am honoured to have the opportunity to represent them now. I sincer ely hope that I will be able to serve them with as much distinction. Mr. Spea ker, I would like to say at this time that many of your rul es and traditions are somewhat strange to me and I beg your patience and guidance as we ll as that of my colle agues and the honourable members opposite, while I learn and become familiar with the ways of the House. I must also acknowledge, Mr.

Spe aker, the many kind words of recognition and we lcome ex tended to me as a new member of this Chamber and I cer tainly appreciate them . I would espec ially say to the Honourable Me mber for Chur chill who mentioned that I had come so well recommen ded , and I do hope that my previous ex perience in the business community and my involvement in rural affairs and rural development over the years will assist me in the contri bution I hope to make .

If I do come with good recommend ations, I would think the most impor tant recommendation of all would be the one accorded to me by the voters of my constituency on November 16th last. I also assure the honourable member that I have a soft spot in my heart for northern Manitoba, having worked there and married there some years ago and we have returned there, my wife and I with our family , to that wonder ful country every year since to enjoy a splendid vacation.

The Honourable Attorney-General mentioned the other day that he has noted my interest in the affairs of the House with the number of questions I have already asked, and I assure him I am anxious to learn and sincerely hope the depa rtments concerned will do me the courtesy of an early reply in order that I may learn the ways of government quickly and thus fulfill my obligation to this side of the House .

The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs responsible for Autopac also mentioned that I had spent some years in his constituency which stood me in good stead with him and I cer tainly enjoyed the time I spent there . While we had disagreements even then, we were able to work together on several committees for the good of the people of that community and I sin cerely hope that now we will be able to do the same for the people of my constituency and Manitoba. I would like now, Mr.

Spea ker, to say a word about the are a I represent and its peopl e, and as you know - and I re alize many of the honourable ministers and members opposite are quite familiar with my constituency having spent considerable time there last fall - my con stituency takes in the Riding Mountain National Park to the north and as you are well aware , this is Canada's second most popular national park and attracts many thousands of tourists to our province each year, and I am sure my colleagues will have more to say on tourism at a later date.

The Trans-Canada Highway bounds my constituency on the south and on the west it includes the Villages of Sandy Lake, Newd ale, De cker, Hamiota and Oak River and on the east from Douglas to Brookdale, Franklin and Scandinavia. Naturally the Towns of Minnedosa and Erickson are important centers and I would be very remiss if I did not make some special men tion or refere nce to Rapid City , the place of my birth and where I spent many years learning and living a hard life, but good life, on a family farm . The people of my ar ea represent all ethnic groups and I assure you are industrious peo ple indeed .

This is the area I now repres ent, Mr. Spea ker, and as many members know the area has traditionally been a prosperous ag ricultural area . The decline of wheat income that has had such a drastic and alar ming effect on farm incomes throughout we stern Canada has been cushioned somewhat in my ar ea by the good management of our farmers and by diversifi cation into production of hogs and beef and in many cases by hard won gains in production.

There is concern in the northern end of my constituency for damage to cr ops by elk herds and deer herds and especially those cr ops that were left in swath unharvested last fall due to weather conditions, and I would urge immediate attention to providing some form of compens a tion to those people affe cted, not only in the Riding Mountain ar ea but in all ar eas of the pro vince where such damage occurs . I know it's difficult for the game branch of this province to

120 March 16 , 1972 (MR . BL AKE con t'd ) ..... provide co mpensation when they maintain that the animals come from a federal area but I know the elk don't particularly care who provides their forage . In the area of Minnedosa where I reside, a gradual expansion of the non-agricu ltural sec tors of our ec onomy have taken place and I hope to see this trend continue and accel erate so that our young people may be offered a wider range of ec onomic opportunity which we believe they deserve .

Although there is not great unemployment in my co nstituency we nevertheless feel the shortage of jobs that is a problem everywhere in Manitoba and in Ca nada . Our local industry Agristeel Limited, a manufacturer of agricultural imDlements with excelle nt potential for further growth and expansion, provides employment for many of our local people and con siderable seasonal work for some of my co nstituents engaged in farming who are able to supple ment their income in this fashion, and we hope to see this operation enlarge in the near future .

The railways of course are an important employer in our town and many of the railway em ployee s live in Minnedosa and the surrounding area and their earnings co ntribute greatly to that area also. Ca nada 's Manitoba distillery is also located in Minnedosa and has been of consider able benefit to the co mmunity and it was located there through the efforts of local people and local investment .

Unfortunately it has been closed for a few months due to -- we understand to over-production, and on this note I would like to say to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerc e, who appears to be a keen student of economic s, that the surest cure for over production is increased con sumption or sales and I would ask that he keep this product in mind at every suitable opportunity . However , we earnestly hope that the plant will be back in opera tion soon and restore the ten to twelve jobs that have been temporarily lost .

One of the over-all costs of the unhealthiness that has plagued our ec onomy and a cos t that the people of my area deplore is that it robs our young people of the kind of future we have always wanted and worked for for them, and we are not co nvinced that the Provincial Govern ment is doing all it can or' should be doing for our farm ec onomy but we know that much of this problem lies in Ottawa. Perhaps we in Minnedosa are more traditional in our view s than some other parts of Manitoba but we believe it is important for our children to grow up and become financially independent of their parents .

We think it is important for them to have the sense of paying their own way and of being responsible for their own future s. And so we want them to have job opportunities. We are willing to use all of our own efforts to help create jobs and we are willing to co operate with any government effort that will create opportunities for our young people .

Two of the areas that I hope to co ncern myself with in this House are agricultural and the development of our economy , and as I said before , we are proud of the flexibility our farmers have shown and we are proud of their gains and productivity and of the way they have re sponded in a realistic way to changes in markets and market conditions.

Those efforts by citizens of Minnedosa constituency deserve support by the Provincial Government and we believe that agriculture is a viable industry and that our way of life is a viable way of life, We cherish our freedom and our power to make our own management decisions. We are prepared to respond to opportunities in this cr ucial industry and we are waiting for government to take real and tangible steps to create these opportunities.

I hope that the Honourable Minister of Agriculture , who had the opportunity of meeting and speaking to many of the people in my constituency a month or so ago, I hope that he will bring forward programs and initiatives to this House that I can support and that will indicate that he indeed has learned something of our wishes in Minnedosa during the days he spent there . I promise him of my support in any real such initiatives. The second area. of concern is that our ec onomy develop in a real and a healthy way and the second area that will concern me in this House will require a few words of explanation.

I think much of what governments meant when they spoke of development even as rec ently as five years ago, can no longer be embrac ed by any of us in public life in Nfanitoba or possibly in Ca nada . I know that the phra se, "ec onomic development" calls forth a certain skepticism and suspicion in the minds of members opposite , as indeed it must in all our minds. As our knowledge of the mture of our ec onomy and as our understanding of the value of our resources has grown, we have come to demand much more of our develo pment .

We have co me to demand that each and every change in our ec onomy be justified by real opportunity it creates for Manitobans and by the benefits that accr ue to our people . We have determined that develop ment must be such that serves the people of this province and not vice versa as has sometimes been the case .

I I \ I I I I March 16, 1972 (MR. BLAKE cont'd) •.... I make this clear, Mr. Speaker, because I fear too often in this House the fact that we agree on this basic position has been obscured. We do have some very basic disagreements about the extent to which government ought to be involved in the marketplace and drastically different importances on the value of the personal economic initiative.

Those of us on this side of the House believe that the freedom to enterprise is an important freedom while mem bers opposite rather place more trust in socially financed endeavours. 121 But I would hope that the area of disagreement will not lead us to lose sight of the fact that we have many of the same objectives for development and that we would apply many of the same judgments and criteria to any proposal for development and that we would all demand that our growth be of real benefit to our citizens.

And so I will refrain from characterizing mem bers opposite as bomb-throwing radicals determined to undermine our prosperity. I believe that they are often wrong-headed or maybe bull-headed and that they are too little sensitive to the real values of private endeavour, but I will not slander them or attempt to misrepresent them. And I will ask, in turn, that they do me the courtesy of refraining from suggestions that my colleagues and myself divide our time equally between conspiracies to violate the child la bour laws and plots to aid and abet the rape of our resources and our people by capitalistic strangers.

I ask this, Mr.Speaker, because I do not believe that these kinds of shallow and self serving misrepresentations benefit the people of Manitoba no matter from what side of the House they originate. I ask this because I did not enter into public life in order to involve my self in slander and misrepresentation and I do not believe that any other members did either, and I hope that a firm recalling of the motives in first seeking membership in this Chamber will guide us away from the temptation of forgetting the real importance of so much that trans pires here.

I have not studied the tradition of first speeches in this Legislature, Mr. Speaker, and I have only said some things today that I wish to say. I have tried to encourage an alternative to the dishonest debate that I fear comes so easily to all of us as we become involved in this Chamber with its conflicts, because I believe we have enough disagreements without fabricating them. At least I can assure the members opposite that I have enough disagreements with their performance as government to keep me busy in all my spare time. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR . PIDLIP M.

PETURSSON (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I wish to make my contribution to the debate on the Throne Speech and will open my remarks with the bow in your direction, Sir, at this second session over which you preside. I congratulate you on how well you weath ered the storms of the last session and I have no doubt that you will be more than equal to any demands that may be made on you during this second session, made on you, your abilities and capabilities. In concert with others who have spoken, I too wish to pay tribute to the memory of the former member of Wolseley constituency, the Honourable Leonard Claydon.

I had known him personally even before he sat in this House and have nothing but good to say of our relationship. During his last two years in this House he put up a brave fight against encroaching illness. It was with a great effort of body and will that he daily made his way to his place in this House, during the last two years of his sitting in the House. His record of attendance was such that others less handicapped than he was could well learn from the example that he set from his sense of commitment and integrity of purpose. And I also join, Mr.

Speaker, with others who have splken in bidding welcome to the Honourable Member who has just spoken from Minnedosa, to this very dxclusive club where men speak their minds sometimes not too clearly but nevertheless whatever happens to be in them, where controversy rages on occasion in strong terms, but where the membership re mains constant and where even those who may go stamping out of a meeting in a huff, always return to take up the battle once again.

Each member in his own way is working for the good and w_elfare of the province of Manitoba, in his own way and according to his understanding and that is what we are all pledged to do. I feel confident that the honourable member from Minnedosa will make his contribution towards that same goal. I wish him well. And then, Mr. Speaker, I wish to give a nod to our two honourable saints of St. Vital and Ste. Rose who kicked off this debate on the Speech from the Throne, and they set a standard for debate which would serve this Legislature well if it were to be followed, in temperateness,

122 March 16, 1972 (MR . PETU�·BSON cont'd) • . . . . in insight, conciseness and clarity . I thank them for their contribution, the contribution which at the time that I listened to it I hoped might be the standard for the debate that was to follow. However, that was but an idle. dream that was soon dissipated . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition was no sooner on his feet than I realized how idle my dream had been . MR . SPEAKER: Or der, ple ase . I note that me mbers are again carrying in foreign stuff from outside .of the Chamber. I wo uld not like to re mind any of them again not to perpetra te that.

The Honourable Member for We llington. · MR . PETURSSON: I was saying, Mr. Spea ker, that when th e Honourable Leader of the Opposition rose to his feet and began to spe ak, that my dream of the high standard of debate had been shattered . He did try to rise to the heights by mentioning Shakespea re but that was as far as he went in that direction . I wish he had edified us with a quotation or two from his words from the tragedies which he me ntioned . It might at le ast have made that part of the 60 minutes worth listening to.

His contribution might have been culturally a little more palatable and on a higher level than it turned out to be . However, Mr. Speaker, since he did mention Shakes peare , then we nt no further, I would wish to help him out a little bit and dedicate to him a very short passage from one of the tragedies of Shakes pe are . So with these lines, Mr. Speaker, I dedicate to him, whe re it was said in the play "King Henry the Eighth" - "We have stood here observing him. Some strange commotion is in his brain.

He bites his lip and starts , stops on a sudden, looks upon the grou nd, then lays his finger on his te mple and straight springs into fast the gates and then stops again , strikes his breast hard and anon he casts his eye against the moon . In most strange postures we have seen him set himself. It may we ll be there 's a mutiny in his mind, if we did think his contemplations we re above the earth and fixed our spiritual obje cts, he should still dwell in his musings, 'but I am afraid his thiilkings are below the moon not worth his serious considering .

" It is said that Shakespea re had a word for every situation and this word is apt and suitable to the contemplations and the musings of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition or, as Shakespea re put it , not wo rth his serious consideratio ns. And how true that is . I listened to the Member for River Heights and I read his speec h in Hansard and there I found that the first five pages were larded with invective and vituperation , abuse and name calling .

The last two pages contained a carry -over of the same but there was also a delineation or as near to it as he seems able to come, of the Progressive Conservative Party platform, but very little in it that inspires confidence or hope for his party . In looking over the speec h I felt it would be too bad to le t the talent displayed in it go wasted and I therefore prepared a glossary of the abusive and insulting terms that were there ex pre ssed .

For the benefit of the future use of the me mbers of the House, instead of having to search for a good solid insulting exp ressi on, they will now need only to turn to Hansard and read there this list of wor ds which I am going to re cite, beginning with "dirty move" most of the m with refere nce to the governm ent: dirty move; collapsing shambles of a governm ent; repre hensible; shamef ul ; futile theor ies; em pty phrases; vague and empty promises; failure; death of idealis m ; rubble of a collapsing governm ent; seeds of disaster; shallow and danger ous stratage ms; wily politicians; cynical blunders; misrepresentatio ns; shallow political footwork -- I am reading the words of the Leader of the Opposition -- parody of a Throne Spee ch; banality and nepotism ; uncontrolled patronage; mismanagement; pointless , childish and malicious interfere nce; erosion of authority; decline of governm ent ; collapsing govern ment; empty parody; chaos, reckless disregard; squander, demoralized ministers; faltering economy; lack of direction ; obsolete class theories; terr ible, needless waste; balkanization of Canadian agricultur al mar kets; abandonment; ever· -increasing restrictions; ungoverned expa nsion of spending; absence of coherent policies; painfully evident disintegration , and so on to the end , to the end of 60 minutes .

There 's more than this but this should suffice to wo rk on. We can expect to hear these inspired phrases recurringly in the addresses of the honourable me mbers opposite as they rise each in turn to this deb ate . And like Premier Be nnett in B. C. we will on this side sit back and smile in recognition as people do whe n they meet old friends whom we have met bef ore . The Leader of the Liberal Party in Manitoba has suggested that the governm ent is running out of gas but now after hearing this disser tation of the Leader of the Opposition we know where to go for a new supply if we find ourselves in need of it.

We go to the Leader of the Opposition. He

March 16, 1972 123 (MR. PETU RSSON co nt'd) . . . . . seems to be full of it . But now that I mentioned the Leader of the Liberal Party , that shadow , that ethereal figure that has not yet materialized in this Chamber and who is in danger of vapourizing entirely before he ever does, reminds me of the subject of a little jingle that I heard once and it applies very aptly to him . It can be sung or chanted or simply recited and it reads in this way .

It says, "Last night, standing on the stair I saw a man who wasn't there; he wasn't there again today; I wish to God he'd go away." With that thought I leave him as I leave also his House Leader, wondering only whether the statements that they have both made about men who are serving this province honoura bly, honestly and well, will not co me back to haunt them rendering every fature statement they make suspect. The statements and the accusations can't but discredit not only the men who made them but their party as well .

Men who resort to such tactics have no place either in this House or out side of it and aspiring to it . For a few moment s, Mr . Speaker, I wish to turn to a couple of other matters which have been very much to the fore over the past several month s and mo re , and one of these has to do with Lake Winnipeg. The Leader of the Oppositio n persists in referring to flooding of the lake and refuses to use the correct designation , which is of course and never has been any other "contro l" . The lake is to be co ntrolled, not flooded .

It is difficult to understand the leader 's obtuse ness, and perhaps not so difficult . The impre ssion he gives is that he is so co ncerned with trying to divert attention from certain revelations that are being made daily and being published in the newspapers here in Winnipeg, that he is using every tactic that he can think of to divert attention from the mishandling by the former government of provinc ial affairs . But how mise rably he fails in that objec tive, and just how mise rably , is being daily made more and more evident as he lashes out in every direction in an almost hysterical frenzy.

The only flood that is occurring as a result of the proposed control of the lake levels is the flood of verbiage that flow s from the lips of the honou rable mem ber, a flood over which neither he nor others seem to have very much control . And so we continue to endure with patience and tolerance the flood tide of words, witnessing at the same time the eroding effect it is having on his credibility as a leader of a party, on his party mem bers and on the general electora te , as witness the two by-elections in Ste. Rose and St . Vital , and even also the by-election in Minnedo sa .

It didn't come through as any great acclaim for his leader ship or for his leader ship capability . That is the eros ion that he should be co ncerned about , the eros ion of his credibility as a leader of his party in this House or out of it . The lake levels under a co ntrol system will be co ntained, as has been repeatedly indicated, will be contained within prescribed limit s. Under control , the extremes of high water and low water will be greatly reduced. Shorelines and properties will be protected to that extent.

Ero sion will be reduced, beaches will be preserved, fishing grou nds will be protec ted, but wild and irresponsible statements have been made and probably will co ntinue to be made with regard to the lake , statements without fo undation and with no relation to reality . I have myself had more than just a nodding acquaintance with the lake , with Lake Winnipeg, over the past 50 some odd years . I have had access to firsthand accounts of the lake pre-dating that time , going back to the 1870 's when the first settlements were being established on the shores of the lake .

The records show that people living on the shores of the lake have been plagued with variations in lake levels ove r the years from extremely low to exces sively high. There are records of loss of livestock and devastatio n of hay fields, and to a lesser degree of grain fields over the years . Roads have been washed out and plac es of settlement have had to be relocated to escape the ravages of the lake at different tim es . That's the story of the lake as it is and as it has been in an uncontrolled condition . Co ntrols would limit extensively the problems of flood and of drought .

The lake would beco me much more a body of water that can be lived with. And yet even after having been given this information and in great detaR there are still those who pretend to believe that under controls someh ow the fishing industry on the lake will suffer . They say that someh ow breeding groun ds will be endangered, that the fishing will become ever more limit ed .

This argument is used against the establi shing of co ntrol s, seemingly preferred the vagaries of wind and weather, of flood and low waters, to what is being pro posed, and how the fish wo uld thrive better under these uncontrolled co nditions than under control , is a complete mystery to me that has not yet been explained to my satisfaction . Then there is the argument about ice formation on the lake as being adversely affected by co ntrols . Lake Winnipeg, as we all know , is not a quietly secluded mill pond . It is, after all,

124 March 16 , 1972 (MR . PE TURSSON cont'd) . . . . . 300 miles long and at its widest about 60 miles acr oss . In the fall of the year, in the fall of each year, ice begins to form along the shorelines, often in stormy weather . The lake does not freeze over evenly or smoothly as a mill pond freezes over . Last New Yea r's, for instance, I had the opportunity of seeing great slabs .of ice ten inche s thick, or a foot thick, large slabs that had been washed up on the shore on the Grand Beach side, some miles south of Grand Beach, broken up and driven by the wind and heavy wave s.

The lake is a rough tumultuous body of wat er. Once the ice has formed great pressure ridges develop . The ice is continually being compre ssed together and then it is forced upwards to form the se pre ssure ridges, sometimes six feet , eight feet, even ten feet high . Tractor trains or bombardiers or other means of loc omotion on the lake have to find their way over or around these ridges, and sometimes during a particularly hard winter the ice freezes to a depth of four or six or more feet deep . Now, all these same conditions would hold true under controls just as they do now without controls.

Ice fishing is not seriously hampered now; that is, there are no obstacles other than what have always existed and ice fishing will no more be hampered under controls than it is hampered at the present time . I don 't see what the ice condition really would have to do with fishing other than having to get through it down into the water .

One critic has spoken of slush ice as being an impediment and a danger on the lake during the wintertime, and has said that if slush ice will form as the re sult of the buckling and the pre ssure of the ice layers in the dead of winter under controls, then that would hamper the fishing activities, but the very same thing is happening right now even without controls, so I don't see what difference there would be in the movement of the ice on the lake . But I would suggest al so that in extreme temper ature s, whether under control or without control , slush ice would very soon become ice .

It freezes just as readily as the water itself freezes and it would not create or be a hazard except perhaps in the very late spring or in the early fall under freezing co nditions. I don 't think that men who have lived their lives on the lake are so lacking in ingenuit-y or knowledge of its ways that they would not be able to cope with the contingencies as they arise, whether of wind and weather or of ice conditions. I do not believe that they need have any fears of having the lake controlled . Rather they should welco me it.

Many have sugge sted to me that controls within the limits set appear to be a promise more of benefit than otherwise. And now, far from Lake Winnipeg and not related to it, I have another matt er, Mr . Speaker, that I would like to touch on briefly and that has to do with a subject that has been raised in the House here by the Honourable Member for Churchill and perhaps other s. That is, it has to do with the port facilities at Churchill and the shipment of grain and the ports of shipment . This same question has been raised in other places than here .

It has been raised in Ottawa and wherever there are port facilities . The newspapers have rec ently been giving publicity to the problems being faced as a result of transportation bre akdowns in various plac es and therefore an interruption in the shipment of grain mainly at the present time by way of Vancouver . There have been delays in the shipment of grain which has alre ady been sold and which is alre ady under contract to buyers . The manager for the Wheat Board in Vanc ouver is quoted as saying that the delays that have occurred there could last for some time , and Mr .

Lang in Ottawa has said that snow and mudslides in the mountains have blocked rail lines preventing shipment, preventing grain from being carried to Vanc ouver . In the meantime many grain ships are in the harbor at Vancouver wa iting to be loaded to ca rry the grain off to the countries of destination . As we know, the Lakehead and the St . Lawrence River are ice -bound at the present time . Churchill - it 's a normal condition - is also ice-bound as it is during every winter .

When Vancouver is closed down then all doors have been closed at this time of the year, closed to any grain shipments leaving the country . What is needed is ac cess to a grain storage facility that will be available to load grain, load Ca nadian grain at times when the pre sent situation in our ports prevail s, so that grain alre ady contracted for can still be delivered to the purchasing nations . Now such a facility can be, with a little imagination, provided .

It can be provided in an ice -free port dur the very time when the Ca nadian facilities themselve s are closed down as they are now, and the ac cess to this facility would be as easy as the open sea itself. Now, this idea is not original with me but I thought I might raise it here as comparative ly little has been made of it , to my know ledge , up to this time . I did speak to the Honourable

March 16 , 1972 125 (MR. PE TURSSON co nt'd) .Member from Churchill and he indicated that he knew some thing about it . This year-round ice -free port where a storage facility for Canadian grain co uld be set up for trans- shipment when Canadian ports are closed is no other place than Iceland . Icela nd is ideally situated in the North Atlantic for receiving shipm ents of grain directly from Churchill to be stored there for trans- shipment when Canadian ports thems elves are closed, and it is ideally situated for shipments directly to any European co untry as well as to almost any other co untry in the world .

Shipping schedules to and from Iceland are maintained on a year-aro und basis without interruption . The harbours are never closed by ice . The last time any harbors in Icela nd were frozen over was in 1918; that's over 50 years ago . And even the largest ocean-go ing freighters could find safe harbor in Iceland just as the largest battleships during the war, whether America n or British, were able to find safe harbor .

If battleships can find water deep enough and sheltered enough for their protection , then certainly grain boats wo uld find equal safety and equal protectio n . 'Proposals have been made to the government of Iceland that some such arrangement be entered into for the building of a grain storage facility there and the government there has been receptive to the idea . It would certainly be a solution to the winter sale and shipment of Can adian grain which at the present time isn't moving at all .

The Port of Churchill wo uld reap large benefits from such an arrangement and the provinc e would, as a whole , not to mention the other grain-raising provinc es, Saskatchewan and Alberta, wo uld also reap benefits. And I do believe that representations should be made to Ottawa in this regard and info rmation obtain ed, if it is not already available , about this proposal and the idea be pushed . It wo uld be inter esting if first steps could be taken to make this plan a reality during the next couple of years.

I don 't know how long it takes to build a grain storage facility but at least a start co uld be made within two years time . The Icelandic Vikings discovered the east coast of Canada a thou sand years ago. The time has co me when Canada should reciproc ate and send a missi on of disco very to Iceland and learn what opportunitie s and facilities could be made available there. It would be interest ing also, for exampl e, if our Premier could visit Iceland at the time of the celebration of the anniversa ry of the first settlement of Iceland which took place in 874 .

Iceland will be celebra ting : an eleven hundredth year anniversary. It was a hundred years or so after that that the Icelandic Vikings sailed to the eastern coasts of America and then a long time elapsed and it was not until in 1875 that Icelanders returned to the America n co ntinent to settle on the shores of Lake Winnipeg. It wo uld be an interesting occasion, Mr . Speak er , if these two nations could now come to gether in an arrangement to facilitate the sale of Canadian grain to the world.

It would be an interesting occa sion also if we co uld have a delegation going from the Pro vincial Government to Iceland two years hence to help them to celebrate the settlement of Iceland. It wo uld be an interesting occasion in three years' time if we could have a delegatio n from Iceland visi ting Manitoba to celebrate a hundred years of Icelandic settlement in the province on the shore s of Lake Winnipeg . On that note , Mr . Speaker, I bring my remarks to a close . I thank you and the mem bers of the Chamber for their kind attention. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MR . J. R.

FERGUSON (Gladsto ne) : Thank you, Mr . Speak er . As is the custom foll ow ing the precedence of the House, I wo uld like to offer my co ngratulations to the Mov er , the Member from St. Vital , and my neighbour co nstituent Ste. Rose on their moving and seco nding the speech from the throne . Also to you, Sir, I would once more express to you the faith that we on thi s side of the Hou se, and the respect we have for your office , and the way you have carried it out in past sessions and will be doing in this one .

Also to my other neightbour to the west, from Minnedo sa, we welco me him to the Chaml:er and congratulate him on his opening speech today . I am sure he will be contributing a lot in the future and we'll all look forward to it. Also to the past speaker, I would like to thank him for the rapt attention that he has paid to the reply that my leader gave and I think that if all memb ers on that side have paid this muc h attention to it, that possi bly there will be some of the good rub off on them . Now I note al so , Mr.

Speaker, that there seems to be a considerable amount of spring fever or possi bly the flu bug in the House today , both on this side and on the other side , and possi bly this malady may clear up by tomorrow . I think pos sibly some of the fellow s might

126 March 16 , 1972 (MR . FE RGUSON cont'd) ..... feel better tomorrow - it is to be hoped. Outside it is a fine spring day and as the saying goes "hope springs eternal in the human breast" and coming from an agricultural area this is one of the seasons that we always look forward to . The Throne Speech mentioned a co nsiderable amount about marketing . This is one of the areas that we on this side and the mem bers on the other side seem to run head on - we don't have too much in co mmon along this line.

We heard on Monday morning that the reason that the egg situation is so rough in Manitd::>a is that the free enterprise system has made an exorbitant profit in marketing; we are told that the establishment of the hog producers board has raised the price considerably . I just can't altogether buy this, I didn't know that the small perc entage of hogs produced in the Province of Manitoba in any way regulated the market of the North America n continent.

I think that if one follows the marketings over the past several months that you will find that the law of supply and demand is still the price setter on the market . The compulsory feature is one of the features that we on this side definitely oppose. The establishing of the board has brought the price, the commi ssion from roughly 35 cents to 60 cents . It has been a deterrent on the hogs in Manitoba co ming into the province. We find that, I think that the ratio was down to I think roughly about 15 percent of what it was prior to the imposition of this Board .

It's going to show up in our meat packing plants and I don 't think that there is going to be altogether this much of a benefit to the provinc e. In the cattle marketing end of the deal, I would just like to quote from an

article from the General Managers and Meat Packers Council of Ca nada "that the farm price index for animal products and the meat industry index, selling prices both increased about 30 perc ent from 1961 to 1970 , indicating livestock producers receive prices substantially in line with wholesale meat prices secured by the processors . In 1971 the meat output totalled about 3 billion , 500 million pounds, a new record high and nearly one billion potmds or 41 perc ent more than in 1961 .

With the Ca nadian population up only 19 percent in the same period, this meant meat output per capita rose from 135 pounds to 160 pounds. The Ca nadian livestock and meat industry has pro duced abundantly , giving co nsumers an increasing supply of meat and meat products at reason able prices . The market performance of the industry over this period is an excellent illustra tion of the way in which a co mpetitive free market ca n maintain balance between supply and dema nd ." Now the reason for read ing this, Mr .

Speaker, would be to point out that in the nine year period, productivity has increased 41 percent and we are still having an increase in prices and the balance between the buying public and the sellers and the in-between men seems to be quite in line. Now I would like to touch briefly on McKenzie Seeds . This seems to be one of the bright spots in the government 's business; it is in direct competition to the private sector again . However, I feel that the private sector should be able to compete with the government provid ing it is run as a separate entity on its own merits and not on a subsidized basis.

There is going to be, I think, a reduction. in the sale of seed in the province mainly due to the LIFT pro grams and build up of the livestock population; and :;tlso I feel that the depressed price of grain is going to have an effect to the people because a lot of farmers are not going to be buying as good a seed possibly as what they should be doing, are going to be using a poor quality seed in some cases just as a matter of ec onomy . In garden seeds , I like to plant a garden .

Last spring I bought my usual amount of pack age s, went out to plant them, I was planting them with my wife, she doesn 't really go for the idea of large garden s, she doe sn't like using a hoe particularly , but in any case we seemed to run out of seeds before we had half of the ground planted. So I would think that possibly an Order for Return should go in, the amount of seeds shall we say in a package of radish or what ever the case may be , starting with '68, 169, 170 , '7 1 to see whether we are still getting the same amount of seeds per packa ge . In Autopac , Mr .

Speaker, we had all the facts from the Minister the other day and there has been a considerable amount of co ntroversy over the school buses. The Pine Cr eek School Division has been mentioned several times during the past couple of days and the rates set on them . I phoned the agent that did the business for the Pine Cr eek School Division and buses in 1971 and '72 and I would like to quote the figures for the record . There are 44 buses in 1971; license and insurance was $2, 032, this is for $1 million passenger hazard, $25 .0 0 deductible .

This feature, the $25 .0 0 deductible as compared to the $200 deductible runs roughly about $900 .0 0. In 1972 , for 44 buses, license and insurance is $2 ,5 79 .0 0 for $1 million passenger

March 16 , 1972 127 (MR . FERGUSON cont'd) ..... hazard and the $200 deductible .. This, Mr . Speaker, I think will clear up the controversy that was taking place around this particular issue . In Education , I don't feel that I want to say a great deal . This shift of taxation with a $50 . 00 maximum for re sidents. I 'm not just this familiar with it, I don 't just quite get the formula that is going to be applied here . I feel that a $50 .0 0 maximum is not going to be a very big help towards the rural people, because in many cases the school tax alone is running be tween $1, 500 and $2 ,0 00 per individual .

Now back to welfare , this is the Honourable Member from Pembina 's position or his job, however, I feel that welfare costs have certainly got to be looked at and I'm ce rtainly not against people that require this as sistance . I know that there are some that possibly could use a lot more and there are some that are not entitled to any that are rec eiving it. But in my estimation, Mr .

Speaker , if able bodied people are going to be drawing welfare in this province , from the 1st of May to the 1s t of Novem ber, they should be listed with the Municipal councils, they should be given the opportunity to go out and work for the state or for whoever is doling the money out. And there are lots of jobs they ca n do . There are public parks, there are old buildings that could be demolished or any amount of jobs that these people can do and I think it would be of much more benefit to the provinc e, at least it would be showing something for our money .

I would like to hit a bit now on water control and drainage . The Minister or the Ac ting Minister is not in the House, the past minister is, but in September of 1971 there was a meet ing held in Neepawa with the municipal Reeve s, the towns, etcetera in my area; the watershed concept was brought out by the Minister, by the departme nt , a six week limit was given to the municipalities to decide whether they were coming in or not co ming in.

I understand from my contact with them that some of them were late in filing, possibly there might be the odd one that isn't in yet, but there has been nothing done towards setting up the Whitemud watersh ed. We are possibly within a month again of a flood; all we need is about another foot of snow and we 'll be back to the same old story as we 've had 1970 back till '68 right through. I believe that this concept is not a handout of money . We have listened for the past few days over talking of $21 million on the Portage Floodway , $90 million on the Winnipeg Floodway .

This concept is giving the munic ipalities or the wa tershed the ability or the right to tax five mills . It 's money that is going to come out of the people that are in the area and it is not in volving any greater extent of provincial funds . I see by the budget, $165 ,0 00 wa s allocated to the Whitemud Watersh ed. This money was not spent. The councils and the reeves have been anxious to get this star ted .

It should have been done this winter; we 've lost a year and this particular project is going to take at least ten years before the re sults are going to sho w and it's going to take considerable amount of planning and I would stress again and hope that the government will move on this project and get it set up and we can possibly get the show on the road. One ot her thing I would like to talk about at this time, Mr . Speaker, is the fact that we are always talking about spreading the business from the centralized authority out into the rural . I have three weekly newspapers in my ar ea .

They have been informed, or have not been informed, I guess, of the fact that all printing over $200 now will have to be in a union shop. I think this represents possibly ten or twelve thousand dollars revenue to the weekly newspapers of Manitoba --( Interjection) -- under $200 is to the lowest bidder ? So actual ly, this does not repre sent that great amount of money , Mr . Speaker, but it is an appreciable amount and will fill some of the gaps. The weekly newspapers are, with the exception I would imagine of the Swan River Valley and Time s, most of them are having a hard time to make ends meet . Now, Mr .

Speaker, I haven 't a great deal more to contribute at this time . I feel that we in Manitoba are looking to government not for more government or more bureauc racies or boards or commi ssions, we feel that we would like to have the opportunity of raising our fam ilies on our family farms, at least being allowed to keep the nucl eus of them intact to pass on to our families, and the government has seen fit to move a little bit, ce rtainly under duress, from 150 to 200 thousand dollars as an exemption. Many of the provinces ce rtainly have more liberal benefits here, there is not this much money involved.

The business of estate planning is very tricky especially under the present tax jungle whereby the tax structure seems to be changing about every other year and what seems to be a good plan today is absolutely worthless probably a year and a half or two years from now . So, Mr . Speaker, I would cert ainly suggest to government that a few brake s be put on the

12 8 March 16 , 1972 (MR. FERGUSON cont'd) . expansion of civil service to govern especially in areas where I do n' t feel that increasing the civil service is going to contribute this much to the welfare of Manitoba ns. And I think, Mr . Speaker, that that's about all I have to say fm: now , thank you . MR . SPEAKER: The Honoura ble First Minister . MR . SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Glad stone I believe indica ted he would entertain a question at the conclusio n of his remar ks, so I would like to ask him whether in recommending the concept of the Watershed Co nservation District, and in particular the Whitemud Co nservation District , he recommends that this apply to, for example the rural municipalities of Glenella, Odanah and No rth Cypress as he recommende d? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladsto ne . MR . FERGUSON: Yes, Mr . Speaker . I take it) Mr .

Premier 1 that you are suggesting that Odanah, North Cypress and Glenella have opted out --(Interjection) -- Oh you didn't suggest that? Well the Municipality of Nor th Cypress I believe are quite willing to go in on an area; Glenella I am not that fami liar with and Odanah have their thoughts . Of course they can co me in or stay out, this is entirely up to them . The watershed concept could still go on . I think through negotiations Cypress is willing to co me in -- I think about half the mu nicipality . The other two, if they are not going to come in, they are not going to co me in . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inks ter . MR. SIDNEY GREEN, Q .C. (Inkster) : Mr . Speaker , I wonder if the honourable member wo uld entertain another question . Wo uld he agree that the watershed co ncept legislation, I believe , was enacted in approximately 1962 and that the previous admini stration was not able to get a single watershed accepted between 1962 and 19 69 . Is he aware of that? MR . FERGUSON: Yes, Mr . Minister, I am quite aware of it . And I' m also aware of the fact that the general flooding started in my area .

I' ve lived on the White mud River all my life and the general flooding started there roughly in 19 68. It's beco me increasingly worse , through the building of ditches and draining programs all through the area that's invo lved . MR . GREEN: Would the honoura ble member then not co nsider that if we have been able to do this in roughly two andla half years . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . The honourable member is asking a debatable and argu mentative type of question . I believe it's been agreed we would have only questions of clarifica tion . The Ho nourable Member for Inkster . MR .

GREEN: I would like to ask thehonoura ble member who says that we have not been able to create this watershed whether he would co nsider that having created one in two and a half years would be good progre ss ? MR. FERGUSON: Well I would answer thatquestion by asking another one , Mr . Minister. Why then has the watershed concept not be-en put into effect ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister . MR. SCHREYER: Would the honourabl e member be gratified to know that at about ll:55 a.m. yesterday the highly recommended Whitemud Water Conser vation District was established by Order-in-C ouncil ? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Gladsto ne . The Honourable Member for St. George . MR . WILLIAM URUSKI (St. George): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable for ... Would you co nsider calling it 5:30 ,

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 7.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	dfcc11f6216c573c87616137aaebddd0fe9e9026

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