Manitoba Hansard — 3 August 1988 (Sitting 9, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-9

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 9- 1:30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

NAME ALCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Steve BURRELL, Parker CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPYSKI, William CONNERV, Edward Hon. COWAN, Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER, Gary DOW NEV, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAV, Glen Hon. GAUDRV, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMO ND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWE R, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAM OUREUX, Kevin, M.

MALOWAV, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MA NNESS, Clayton, Hon. McCRA E, James Hon. MINENKO, Mark MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation CON STITUENCY Os borne St. Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkir k Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin-Russell Concordia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Riel St . James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Virden St.

Boniface Minnedosa Ell ice Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Transcona lnks ter Elmwood Assini boia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pem bina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCA N, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASVLVCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns VEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC PC LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

lEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wedn esday, August 3, 19 88. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Donald Orc hard (Minister of Health): Mr . Speaker , I have a ministerial statement and copies for the House. Last wee k, I had the pl easure of mee ting with members of the Man itoba St roke Association to sign a proclamation declaring the month of August as "Stroke Survivor Month." St roke is the number one disabler in Canada. An estima ted 6,200 Ma nitoba ns are stroke patients with approximately 1,000 new Man itobans being affected each year .

This dis ease affects either di rectly or indirectly 25,000 Man itobans . The St roke Association of Man itoba was founded in 19 71. They are the first and oldest stroke associat ion in Canada. This is a volunteer organization to service all of Man itoba, and have commenced their fund- raising campaign during the month of Aug ust . This St roke Association offers new stroke victims and their families help to overcome the disabil ities caused by stroke, and provides needed services for patients and their families throughout the province.

I kn ow that all Mem bers will join with me in wishing the Ma nitoba St roke Assoc iation every success in their fund raising during the month of August and contin ued good suc cess to this very val uable volunt eer organization in the Province of Manit oba. Thank you. * (13 35) Mr. Gu lzar Cheema (Kild onan): I wel come the Honourable Health Min ister's statement as it regards the Ma nitoba St roke Assoc iation. We know that there are a lot of problems they are facing.

The number one issue which I want to bring to the Min ister's atten tion is the serious lack of speech therapists which we are facing in Manitoba today. Some of them, some of our stroke patients have to wait for eight months for asses sment. I think that is a disa ster, and we should hire more speech therapists and we should look in terms of rehabilitating them. I think that will be our message to them so that we can convey to them we care about them. Also, we should be looking at providing more support services for their fam ilies.

Also, there are certa in patients who wait in the personal care homes more than is required. I think we should be looking more in terms of placement services, in terms of community services, and the support services. Thank you. 261 Mr. Gary Doer (Concordia): I would like to join with other Mem bers of this House in wishing the St roke Association every deal of success in their fund-raising attempts this month, and congratula te the Min ister for proclaiming this month as appropriate for the Stroke Associa tion and Stroke Survivor Month.

We believe very strongly that the key to this medical issue is lif estyle and prev ention in our ever yda y workplaces, leisure time and home experience. I hope the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) will see fit to double the prevention budget in the health care field, as we did last February, in putting money and resources into prevention and lifestyle issues in this province so that all Man itobans will in the future be able to, through lifestyle, through good health, through proper nutrition and through education, not have to be a victim of this terrible disease. Thank you very much. Hon.

James Downey {Minister responsible for The Manitoba Natural Resources Development Act): I would like to table the report of Moose Lake Loggers Ltd ., 19 86-87. Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): lt is my pleasure to table the report for Manitoba Mineral Resources Ltd., for the year ended December 31, 19 87. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Before proceeding to Oral Quest ions, I would like to direct the atten tion of all Honourable Mem bers to the Spea ker's galler y, where we have two exchange students visiting our province. They are Mr. Kartsen Petersen from Denmark, and Mr.

Magnus Sedar from Sweden. Both gentl emen are here under the sponsorship of the Warren and Stonewall Lions Club and I would ask the House to welcome them. OR AL QUESTION PERIOD Man. Cttee. on Wife Abuse Report release Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (leader of the Opposition): We in the Opposition understand that Minis ters do not have to ans wer questions if they choose not to do so. However, we do hope that when they do answer questions, they will ans wer them in an accurate and informed manner. Surely, this is funda mental to the principle of ministerial responsibility. So I ask the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon): Will he please demand of the Minister of Community Se rvices (Mr s. Oleso

n) the tabling of the report and audit done on the Mani toba Committee on Wife Abuse? * (13 40) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Min ister of Commu nity Se rvices (Mr s. Oleson) has indicated in this

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 House that she will tabl e that report when it is in final form. The Ma nitoba Commit tee on Wife Abuse had had some difficulties, the Leader of the Op position (Mr s. Carstairs) may recall, last year. There were a number of resignations and quite some controversy as a result of resigna tions from the organization and so on. I might indicate to the Leader of the Opposition that I personally met with senior executive members of the Committee on Wife Abuse in March-Jud y Hughes and Eunadie Johnson.

I might indicate that my Min ister has met with them not only once, but I believe has had other discussions with them. We are very concerned to ensure that the Committee on Wife Abuse is given a full and complete review. There was an audit that was commissioned, I believe, by the former Government, and a review into the organization, their actions, their make-up and so on. That has been done and it is in draft form. There is a process that takes place.

I believe that when reports are done, when reviews are done on organizations before they are put in their final form, they ought to have an opportun ity to review the recomm endations, the findings and be gi ven an opportunity to respond to them. When they have done that, then we make sure that there are no errors of fact , no errors in terms of analysis, and then that report can be made public. If it is not done in that form, then it has the prospect of being unfair to the organization. That complete process has not been dealt with; it has not been fina lized.

When it is, the Leader of the Opposition and indeed all Mem bers of the Legislature and the public will have an opportunity then to see the contents of tha t report. Mrs. Carstairs: With a supplementary quest ion to the First Min ister: The draft report has been ready for almost four-and-a-half months. The Committee on Wife Abuse itself has seen the draft report and has indicated they would like it released . Why is this Govern ment not releas ing this report? Mr.

Filmon: We indicated-and we have no reason to want to keep the report from being public, other than to do it in a form that is fair to all parties concerned , particularly to the Committee on Wife Abuse-w hen it is in its final form and their input and their concerns have been dealt with to ensure that the report is factual and accurate, it will be made publi c. Mrs. Carstairs: The committee has indicated it wants the report, the Government has said the report is ready. When can we expect to have this report tabled in the Manitoba Legisla ture? Mr.

Filmon: I think that it is inc umbent on both sides of the House to be accurate in the information they provide. Just as it is incumbent on the part of Min isters to be accurate in their state ments, it is incumbent on the part of Leader of the Opposition to be accurate in her state ments. She said the Government has indicated that the report is ready. We have done just the opposite. We have said we have a draft , a draft that requires to be assessed and ensu red that all of it is factual and 262 that all the information is accurate. I! is not in a final form, and that is why it has not been released.

The Leader of the Opposition, if she were factual, would ackn owledge that we have said it is in a draft form. lt is not ready and when it is ready it will be released . Grand Beach Provincial Park Campground - Clean-up Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a new ques tion to the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon), and also about inaccurate information with regard to his Min isters in presenting information to this House. Last week, the Min ister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst), just prior to the long weeken d, indicated that the clean-up at Grand Beach had been completed .

Indeed, as of last night, fully six bays and 15 2 camping sites were still not open, and yet we were told on Friday that if there was a need to clar ify that information it would be clar ified as soon as we met yesterd ay. Would the First Min ister tell this House why we were given inaccurate information and when will Grand Beach be cleaned ? * (1 345) Hon . Gary Fil mon (Premier): The Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Cars tair

s) knows full well about giving inaccurate information. In the midst of the recent election campaig n, she al leged that Air Canada had awarded a contract for airbus that would take away all of the repair and maint enance for those aircraft from Winnipeg. Of course, her president of her Party, Mr. Morris Kaufman , when challenged as to whether or not the alle gation she made publicly on tele vision, on radio throughout this province was accurate, he was asked do they have any evidence of it? He said, and I quote: "We do not have some information; we are guessing ." That is what the Leader of the Opposition did.

She guessed about sign ificant information about people's loss of jobs. She put 400 people in danger and in fear of losing their jobs because she refused to get accurate information just for her own political purposes. So she knows about inaccurate information. Now with respect to the quest ion about Grand Beach, I will let the Minis ter of Tourism (Mr. Ernst) answer that quest ion for her. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Indust ry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I would lik e to point out something to the Mem bers of the House and to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs).

The question asked was: As it was I, as Minister of Tourism, why had not we cleaned up Grand Beach? I indicated to the Honourable Member who asked the quest ion, Mr . Sp eak er, that it was not my res ponsi bil ity but that of the Min ister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penne r). I said at that time he should ask the quest ion of the Min ister of Na tural Resources. He did, on his next question, ask that quest ion of the

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 Minis ter of Na tural Resources. The quest ion was taken as notice by the Acting Min ister and that information should be provided in due course. Mrs. Carstairs: With a quest ion to the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon), because indeed the Minis ter of Tourism (Mr. Ernst) said in a discus sion with the Minister of Na tural Resources (Mr. Penner) that indeed the Grand Beach clean -up had been completed. When-w ill the First Min ister inform this House will this clean -up take place, and when wil l the citizens of Man itoba be able to enjoy the rest of this summer camping at Grand Beach? Hon.

Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): In regard to Grand Beach and the clean-up of Grand Beac h, as I had indic ated previo usl y to both the Minis ters that were quest ioned and also to the Premier, the job of clean-up had, in fact , ended. 1t had simply been ended because of the dangers that were involved in the clean-up process. There were many, many little children and other people on the beach at the time of the holida y season . There are portions of the parking area or the camping area that still will need clean-up after the season.

They will be opened and cleaned up as soon as the danger of people at the beach area is over and done with, hopefull y right after the school holid ays. There are many other areas when disasters such as the tornado or the high winds that went through our beach areas and other areas such as camping trail s, such as skido o trail s, such as ski trails, that will need a massive amount of clean-up.

We have had numerous offers from organizations such as snowmobile clubs and ski clu bs and those kinds of things that wil l assist us, but only when the time comes and the safety factor has fully been taken into consideration. Mrs . Carstairs: With a final supplementar y, then, to the Minis ter of Nat ural Resources. Can the Min ister ass ure this House that t here is not indeed a major safety factor involved in leaving these campsites a mess, where children can indeed get into the mess and that, indeed, is more of a safety factor than would be resul ted in the actual cleanin g up? Mr.

Penner: lt might interest the Honourabl e Leader of the Oppositio n that I have been assured by my st aff of the danger that we would have incurred if we had atte mpted a clea n-up of those areas by movement of big payloaders, huge trucks on beach areas, large equipment, chain saws. I think the Honourable Leader of the Opposition needs to have witnessed a chain saw kicking back and hitting somebody in the face. lt is not a pretty sight! But those kinds of dangers we were trying to prevent, and will prevent. That is the reason we have closed off that area. 263 Pharmacare -Deductible Increase Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the Minister responsible for Seni ors (M r. Neufeld ). Does the Min ister suppo rt the decisio n of his Government to raise the fees for Pharma care for seniors -the Pharma care deducti ble? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister resp onsible for Seniors): Mr. Speak er, the seniors of this province are quite prepared to pay their way the same as everybody else, and I do not think the increase is so substant ial that they cannot pay that way. * (1 350) Mr.

Doer: I wonder what seniors organizations the Minis ter has talked to, consulted with and deal t with to get that kind of advice. A 12 percent increase on the Pharma care deductibl e is certai nly well above the inflatio n rate, maybe three times the inflat ion rate. An Honourable Member: Over how many years? Mr. Doer: Maybe that is the same kind of advice the Min ister received when his Party was dealin g with the drug patent laws in this country.

What seniors organization supports a 12 percent increase in the Pharmacare deductib ility and a 20 percent increase in the deductibili ty for people under 65 years old? Mr. Neuleld: As a member of the community over 55 years of age, I am well aware of the cost of Pharma care and other medical services. The Government is very concerned about the cost of Pharma care and the cost of other medical services to the members of the community and especially the seniors. The Government is under tremendo us pressure to keep costs down and the senior population is as interested in that area as anybo dy el se.

I suspect they are probabl y more interested in helping the Government at this point. Mr. Doer: I asked the Minister what organizations did he consult with prior to the Government making the decision to increase the deductibil ity by three times the inflat ion rate for sen iors in this province, many of whom are on fixed incomes, many of whom do not get a 12 percent increase in their income per year.

I ask the Minister: Who did he consult with to proceed with this kind of decis ion of three times the infla tion rate for people over 65, and 20 percent, maybe four or five times the inflat ion rate, for people under 65? Mr. Neufeld: We are concerned about the concerns of the sen iors. That is why we have a Senio rs Directorate, and as time goes on, if the money is avail abl e, there may be changes in the cost of Pharm acare and medical care to seniors. There may be changes in the cost of Pharma care and Med icare to everyone. But at this point in time, we are not in a positio n to reduce those costs.

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 Mr. Doer: The seniors on drugs are getting a double wham my. On the one hand, they have got Brian Mulro ney's drug patent law that has hit them with increas ing costs in drugs and, on the other hand, we got a 12 percent increase in the deductibility. We refused to raise the deductibil ity in our Budget this year because we were concerned about sen iors. I would like the Minister to tell us what groups he consulted with to get the go-ahead for a 12 percent increase on their deductibil ity this year.

Mr. 1\ieufeld: The seniors who I have spoken with are all in agreement that they are prepared to pay their share of the cost of running this province and that we are no longer in a position to give handouts. We are no longer in a position to pay the full cost . The seniors are more prepared than any other group in society to pay their own way. Meech lake Accord - Public Hearings Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is for the Honourable First Minis ter (Mr . Filmon).

As the First Minister knows very wel l, the eyes of Can ada will be on this House as it begins to debate the 19 87 Constitutional Accord, but to date we have heard little, if any, discussion at all from the First Minister about the detail and the substance of the Accord. Does the First Minister support the resolution as currently drafted, or will he consider amend ments after the people have spoken? * (1 355) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speak er, I will tell the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Carr) exactly as I have told the public countless times throughout the course of the debate on Meech Lake.

I support the Meech Lake resolution in principle but I am prepared to listen to the people of Ma nitoba. That is why we fought for public hearings. That is why, when we were in Opposition in this Legislatur e and there was a proposal to bring fort h an amendment to the Constitutio n without public hearings, we fought tooth and nail. We fought and fought and fought until we got a change to the rules that ensu res that we will have public hearings throughout this province so that all people will be heard.

I have taken the position that I support it in principle, but I am prepared to listen, unlike his Party and his Leader who have said their minds are made up. They do not want to be confused by the facts and they do not want to listen to the people. They have said that they will not change their minds on Meech Lake. Their minds are made up; they are opposed to it. I will not take that position . I wil l take the position that will listen to the people. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speak er, with a supplementa ry to the First Minis ter. We are taking leadersh ip on this issue.

We are tel ling the people of Man itoba what our ideas are for the Meech 264 Lake Accord. The First Minister may know that during his speech last night, the Minister of Urban Affairs (M r. Ducharme) an nounc ed to this House tha t publ ic hearings wil l be occurring this fall. I presume that he was speaking for Government policy. Could the First Minister tell us precisely when the Accord wil l be introduced and when the public hearings will begin? Mr. Fiimon: In due course, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Carr: Another example of open Government from those who sit across from us here.

With a final supplement ary to the First Minister: Can the Premier give assurances to this House that the public hearings, whenever they arrive, will not occur simply in the City of Winnipeg but in fact throughout the Pr ovince of Ma nitoba? Mr. Filmon: Beginning with the comment on open Government, firstly, that matter, as he should know, is a matter for discussion amongst House Leaders. My Government House Leader (M r. McC rae) will discuss with his Opposition House Leader (Mr. Alcock) and the House Leader of the New Democratic Party (M r.

Cowan) about the committee that will be struck to go out to public hearings, about the dates and times of those hearings, and about the places of those hearings. One thing I can assure is that they will not be held just in the City of Winnipeg. I have said time and time and time agai n, when asked that quest ion, that I expect that they will get wide coverage throughout the province, that there will probably be at least as many locat ions as we had during the French lang uage hearings in this province, and that we will listen to the people throughout the Pr ovince of Man itoba.

I do not understand why he would have any question to that effect. Speech therapy treatment Mr. Gulzar Cheema {Kildonan): My quest ion is to the Min ister of Health (M r. Orchard). Line-ups for health care services are becoming a way of life in Ma nitoba and our children are suffering as a result. Right now there are about 250 children with serious speech disorders between the ages of 18 months and five years who are waiting up to 14 months for an asses sment. If they do not get treatment on time, they can suf fer from intelle ct ual, emo tio nal and behaviou r disorders.

Would the Honourable Minister guarantee Manitobans that he will take steps to protect our children from suffering unnecessary handicaps? * (14 00) Hon. Donald Orchard (Mini ster of Health ): Mr. Speak er, regrettab ly, there are line-ups in the Province of Man itoba for needed medical health services and those line-ups have grown over the last number of years, unfortunately. I am pleased that the Opposition Health Critic has posed that question following my address to the Throne

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 Speech la st night, wherein I identif ied the woefu l inadequacy of speech therapy services avai lable to preschoolers. That service is woefully inadequate. There are waiting times of up to 12 months for an appointment for an asse ssment and a further 12 month wait before any trea tment can be received by those yout hful children. As a result, Mr. Speak er, one of the actions I have take n, since becoming Minister of Health, is I have met with the Associat ion of Speech Therapis ts for the Province of Ma nitoba.

We are to meet again this fall after the association has met and di scussed with their Board of Directors where the most urgent and priority needs are, because speech therapy services are not only woefully inadequate for preschool children, they are also inadeq uate for many of the victims who are celebra ting, not celebra ting, but for whom we declared the month of August, "Str oke Victim Month." They also are in need of speech therapy services.

I am anticipating a meeting this fall with that ass ociation of Speech Therapists of Ma nitoba so that they can indicate to me their priorities and how they believe Government can adequately add ress, with limited resources, the very necessary needs amongst the community. Mr. Cheema: Children of Man itoba cannot wait for another four to six months. At present, there are about eight speech therapis ts deal ing with children in all Ma nitoba hospitals. Will the Minister tell the House what he is going to do to increase the number of therapists and track down the dela ys? Mr.

Orchard: Again, I have to indicate to my honourable friend, the Health critic, that this is a long and lingering problem. Cont rast that with the Province of Al berta, which the previous admin istrat ion constantly held out as being woefully under-deliv ering services. The number of speech pathologists avai lable to provide speech therapy to Al bertan s is in the neighborhood of 80 compared to some eight who are working in our hospitals and a number of others who work throughout the Pr ovince of Man itoba, to a limited degree in rural Mani toba, to a major degree in the City of Winnipeg. Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Health Critic for the Opp ositio n will kno w, if he has inv estiga ted this circumstance, that the professional tra ining of speech therapy is not available in the Province of Ma nitoba. lt is a service which is under great demand and student en rollment in either No rth Dakota un iversities or elsewhere in Canada has very limited spaces. So we have two problems to confront us. First of all, the budgetary problem; and second, the avai labil ity of qualif ied speech therapists. Both issues are to be add ressed this fall in my meeting with the Ma nitoba Associa tion of Speech Therapists.

Mr. Cheema: My final supplementar y. I would like to tell the Minister that there are people avai lable but there are a lack of funds. Mr. Speake r, babies with physical dev elopment problems hav e to wait for six to eight weeks and even 265 longer for access to physiotherapy. A wait of two months to tr eat a one-year-old baby who is already six months behind development is criminal . Would this Honourable Minister advise this House what step he is going to take to correct this misfortunate situa tion? Mr.

Orchard: Again the Honour able Me mber has identif ied an issue in which the provision of service is not as immediate as all of us in this House would prefer to have, myself included as Minis ter of Health.

I think that if the Honourable Member has some patience, he may be very interested in entering this debate and this discussion as we approach Estimates because the is sue of physiotherapists and their avai labil ity, I might add, to my Honourable Member the Opposition Health Crit ic, tha t the need for physiotherapists is all across the pr ovince but is even more acute in rural Ma nitoba where we have additional recruitment difficulties to get those specialists into rural Ma nitoba. Pharmacare Deductible Increase Criteria Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My quest ion is to the Min ister responsible tor Seniors (M r.

Neufeld). Before add ressing the quest ion specifical ly, I would just like to remind the Minister as to what was said in the recent Throne Speech in regard to seniors, where it stated , and I quote the Throne Speech, Mr. Speak er, "A Minister responsible for Seniors has been designated to ensure that issues of concern to seniors are given the atten tion they deserve." I would ask the Minister responsible for Seni ors what criteria he used in determ ining the impact of this increase in the deductible on the seniors of Man itoba? Hon.

Harold Neufel d (Min ist er resp onsible for Seniors): The Member tor Churchill (M r. Cowan) is absolutely right. lt is the concern tor seniors that caused the Government to appoint a director tor seni ors. The incr ease in Pharma care, or the incr ease in the deductible of Pharmacare, is the first one in a number of years. lt is not so great if the seniors are not prepared to accept it.

The seniors, as I have said before, are the most responsible people we have in our community and will bear their fair share of the cost of the problem; indeed, over the years have borne more than their fair share. lt is with regret that we have to increase the cost, but it is necessa ry. I ask the Member for Churchill to look back to see the number of things that he has done for seniors, the number of things that their Party has done for seniors, and did they appoint a director? Mr. Cowan: Mr.

Speaker, when there is more time to enter into that debate, I would be pleased to enter into any debate with any Member of the Conservativ e Party , or the Liberal Party , in respect to what the NDP has done on behalf of the seniors and elderly people in this country for generations to come. Let him not throw

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 out that challenge unless he is prepared to accept that debate, and I, Sir, am prepared at any time to undertake that debate. The question to the Minister . . . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , pl ease; order , pl ease . The Honourable Mem ber for Churchill has the floor. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, all their heckling will not betray the fact that they have increased the deductib le to seniors . I ask the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr.

Neufeld) if he will ans wer this question: What criteria was used by his directorate or himself when determ ining the impact of this increase in the Ph armacare deductible on seniors and on other individuals in this society who are on fixed incomes and who are unabl e to afford this sort of arbitrary increase in what is already too meager an income? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber's quest ion is repeating in substance a question which was previously asked and, therefore, is out of order. The Honourable Member for Churchill. Mr. Cowan: Mr.

Speaker, I will then ask the Min ister as he chooses not to answer that ques tion, I can only assume there were no criteria used -i s the Min ister responsible for Seniors prepared to live up to his responsibi lity and to call upon- Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader. Hon. James McCrae (Government House leader): I suggest abusing the Question Period by using his quest ions as an opportunity to debat e-in addition, he has alleged that there was no answer given by the Min ister responsible for Se niors (Mr . Neufeld) , which is absolutely not true-the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr .

Cowan) knows better than this kind of behaviour and yet he conducts and carries on that way day after day in this House . I suggest that he be called to order. Mr. Speaker: I have ruled that the Honourable Member is out of order, and I recognize the Honourable Member for Churchill. * (14 10) Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister if he will live up to his responsibili ty to seniors and call upon the directorate to immediately undertake lull scale eval uation of the impact of this increase in Pharma care deductible on the seniors in Mani toba.

Will he undertake that investigation immediately and report back to the House, this Legisl ature, as to the results of that invest igation? Further to that, I would ask him if he would impose upon the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and his First Min ister (Mr . Filmon) to ask 266 them to stop this increase until such an evaluation has been done and he has had time to consult with seniors as to the impact of this on them. Mr. Neufeld: The concern for seniors, Mr. Speaker, is ongoing. We will, and are, at all times, examining the effects on sen iors of all legislatio n.

We will, as time goes on, do whatev er is necessary to make the life of our seniors the best we can make it. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Free Trade Agreement - Water Resources Protection Mr. John An gus (St. Norbert): Mr. Spea ker , my quest ion is to the First Minis ter (Mr. Filmon) and relates to the effects the Free Trade Agreement will have on Manitoba ns. Mr. Speaker , we have seen the federal Government respond to the protection of Ma nitoba waters, and this Government was not even aware there was a problem.

My question relates to the $28 mill ion six-year program tha t has been cost-sh ared between the federal Government and the Province of B. C. over what is called the great "A." My quest ion is: What assistance has the Premier been able to give the federal Government that will help negate the nega tive im pact on free tr ade on Manitobans? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the Member for St . Norbert (Mr. Angus) has raised the issue of water in the Free Trade Agreement. Clearly , the Min ister respon sible for Trade, Mr.

Crosbie, has indicated, in introducing that legisla tion in the House of Commons, that it was not something that was needed because water was not covered by the Free Trade Agreement. The fact of the matter is he put it in because the fearmongers from the Liberal and New Democratic Parties were whipping up the issue to such a public extent that he wanted to assure people that he had no difficulty in putting forth that in the legislation because there was no fear of it. So it was not giving away anything, it was not adding anything to it; it was just simply restating what was already the case. But, Mr.

Speaker , more to the point, as a Liberal, I am sure he is aware that the concerns about water being used in the Free Trade Agreement are ones that were raised as a result of the Liberals in the past. I quote what John Turner said- they might know who John Turner is. I do not know if their Leader does, but I am sure some of the others know who John Turner is.

He said in 19 68-in fact , he wrote in 19 68 with respect to trade: "If someday we can agree to the sharing of this continent 's water by offering some of our water for export, we might want at that time to insist that if water is to be considered as a continental resource, markets should also be considered on the same basis. We might wish to export water not for money but in return for access -

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. The Honourable Member for St . Norbert. Mr. Angus: lt is surprising, as a new Member to this House, when I ask a direct quest ion in relation to the protection of Man itoban rights, I get rhetoric that is not appl icable . My question is: Given that there may be large groups of people that may be hurt by the Free Trade Agreement, what ac tion can we expect to protect these di sadvantaged gr oups in Man it oba who may be advers ely affected by free trade? Mr. Filmon : Mr .

Speaker , let us be gin with the knowledge which probably has escaped the Memb er for St . Norbert, and that is that every single empirical study of the Free Trade Agreement has indicated that there will be increases in employ ment in Canada, and particularly in Man itoba, somewhere between 12 ,000 and 15 ,000 net new jobs in Mani toba alone as a result of the Free Trade Agreement. lt does not matter whether it is the Economic Council of Canada or the Canada West Foundation or the Government of Man itoba or the NDP Government's own study, they all show that we would be a net benefactor in terms of net new jobs.

In terms of the changes that might take place in the employment place where some jobs would be gain ed and some would be perhaps lost along the way, the changes that would take place would be less, by far, than the normal change s that take pla ce in the marketpla ce each and every year, a small fract ion of that normal change. So all of the programs that are set up in Canada for retraining between federal and provincial Governments cost share initia tives to ensure that we are always retraining our people of our province for the new oppor tuniti es tha t the y face as the marketpla ce changes.

Those programs will remain in place and they will benefit Man itobans in future. Mr. Angus: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister of this province would do better if he listened to Man itobans instead of to the Prime Min ister. The Prime Min ister has said that this Free Trade Agreement is not a panacea. He has said that there are flaws in it and there are disadvantaged groups. What is this First Min ister going to do for the people at McCains Foods, whose vice-president has indicated that their plant is in jeopardy?

What is he going to do for the people who are shipping grain and are worried about the lobbying groups that are trying to turn it down? What is he going to do about the people who are losing their subsidies to ship canola? What are you going to do for the people of Man itoba instead of just trumpeting the Brian Mulr oney song? Mr. Speaker: I would lik e to caution all Members that a long quest ion does seem to work in a long answer, so I would caution all Memb ers. Mr. Filmon: The Mem ber for St. Norbert (Mr.

Angus) is not anymore knowledgeable about free trade than he was about pot holes when he was on City Council. 267 The reality of the situation is that every empirical analy sis says that Man itoba has much to benefit. Our farm co mmunity and every single commodity group represented under the Keystone Agricultural Producers supports the Free Trade Agreement because they see expanded marke ts, ex panded oppor tunit ies and economic benefits to the farm community. The people in the manufacturing sector see increased opportuniti es. In all areas of our economy, there are increased opportunities.

As a result, I do not accept the premise that there are damag ing aspects of the Free Trade Agreement. There will be changes and shifts in the economy and those changes and shifts will be addressed as a result of tra ining programs that we have between the federal and provincial Governments to ensure that our work force is always trained to access the opportunities for jobs that occur in the marketpl ace as it changes from time to time, as it always was and will in the future. Pharmacare Deductible Increase Criteria Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr.

Speaker, I, too, have a quest ion arisi ng out of the concern being exp ressed on this side of the House for the announcement today of the increased Pharma care deductible. My question is to the Min ister responsib le for the St atus of Women (Mr s. Oleson).

Given that the poorest members in our society are, by all statistical approaches, older women, senior citizen women, and given the fact that there are approximately 13 2,000 families who are re cipients of the Pharmacare deductib le or participants in this program, will the Minister responsib le for the Status of Women inform Members of this House what analy sis was done by the Women's Directorate in determ ining her input into this most recent decision?

What criteria were used by the Min ister responsib le for the St atus of Women and her staff for determining the impact of these very sign ificant increases on senior citizen women of this province and on single-parent families headed by women, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Thank you to the Honourable Member for that question. The same criteria was used in studying this as was used when the NDP Government increased Pharma care deductibles. An Honourable Member: That is right. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. SPEAKER'S RULING Mr.

Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On July 27, the Honourable Member for Dauphin rose on a matter of privilege compla ining that two statements ma de by the Honou rable Min ister of Highways and Transportat ion on July 26 cast aspersions upon him.

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 The first stat ement related to the withdrawal by the Sas katchewan Government of fundi ng for the Churchill Deve lopment Board. On Jul y 27, the Honourable Minister withdrew this state ment and apologized to the House. That matter, I am sure, is therefore resolved to the complete satis fact ion of the House. I have reviewed most carefully the second stat ement regarding the twinning of Highway 75. I have also examined with great care the various parli amentary authorities . What exists in this case, I believe, is a dispute over the facts relating to a particular set of circumstan ces.

Beauchesne (Cita tion 19 (1) ) and Maingo t (pp. 19 0-191) both state that a dispute between two Mem bers over quest ions of fact does not const itute a valid question of privilege. A number of al leged matters of privilege have been ruled out of order on these grounds by previous Spea kers. This may be a suitable opportunity to remind all Honourable Mem bers tha t while speak ing it is unparlia mentary to impute unworthy motives to a Member or to make a personal charge against a Member.

In rereading the remarks of the Honourable Min ister of Highways and Transportation respecting the twinning of Highway 75, I note that he mentioned neither the Honourable Memb er for Dauphin nor the former Min ister of Highways and Transportat ion. I therefore find it difficult to accept that these remarks have cast aspersions upon the Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin. With respect, I must inform the House that the Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin has failed to establish a prima facie case of privilege. In my view, this matter is a dispute over the facts.

I must therefore rule the Honourable Member's motion out of order as a matter of privilege. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. * ( 1420) ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE Mr. Speaker : On the proposed motio n ol the Honourable Mem ber for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Pra znik), stan ding in the name of the Honourable Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard), who has eight minutes remaining. The Honourable Min ister of Health. Hon . Donald Orchard (Min ister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I want to take this opportuni ty to clarify for Honourable Mem bers of the House some of the rather inaccurate information that these people are putting on the record today on the Pharma care deducti ble. Mr. Spea ker, I want to tell honourable Ma nitobans that on June 1, 19 86, the NDP, this Government that is crying wolf today, increased the deductible to senior citizens by not 12 percent but by 28 percent. 268 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Orchard: Then what did they do on January 1, 19 87 ? Six months later, they increased the deductible not by 12 percent but by 16 percent.

Now, it is against every rule in this House to describe Honourable Members as hypocrites, and I will not do that, but today was a demonstrati on of how two-faced any Party can be once they change sides of the House. Now all of a sudden , without consultatio n in 19 86 and 19 87, they raised the deductible by 28 percent to seniors, 16 percent six months later without consultation to the sen iors, without consulta tion to the St atus of Women, and now they have the gall to stand here and say that we have done something in error. My Lord, Mr.

Speaker , how low can they step, how low can they grovel to try to pick up their fortunes with the people of Manito ba when a scant 22 percent of Mani tobans voted and sup ported that incompetent group while they were in Government? I am sick and tired of the hypocrisy. I simply want to tell the people of Man itoba that there was no joy on our side of the House in Treasury Board or myself as Min ister of Health to have to announce an $8 increase in the deductible to seniors of Man itoba.

There was no pleasure taken on my behalf or in Treasury Board or by Membe rs of Cabi net to increase the deducti ble for Pharm acare by Man itobans by $20 per year for those under 65. I want to tell Manitobans that despite those increases in deductible s, the refund to Man itobans and the support provided by the Pharma care program will increase this year despite the increase in deductib les. The program will benefit Man itobans to a greater degree despite this increase in deductibles.

If my honourable friends in Government had not left us with a $585- millio n-a-year interest charge, we would have the abili ty not to raise deducti bles. lt was the outlandish squandering of the resources of the Province of Man itoba by six years of Howard Pawley and the incompetence of the Mem ber for Brandon East (Mr. Evans), the incompetence of the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), the incompetence of the Member for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman), and all of their colle agues that left this province in such a dismal fiscal condition that a new Government, regardless of political stri pes, had no option but to make some tough decisions.

I want to tell honourable friends over here that, had the Mem ber for Br an do n East lo oked after his responsibil ity as a Cabi net Minister and protected the taxpayers of the Province of Manitoba instead of raising the amount of interest payments outside of this province by $490 millio n per year in six short years of Government, we would have resources to provide the speech therapy tha t was asked for today by the Opposition in Health.

We would have the resources to roll back and eli minate the deductible in Pharmacare if it was not for the sq uandering of that $490 mil lion in extra interest costs that they have forced on every living breathing Mani toba and generation s yet unborn. So do not come to this House crying wolf. You peo ple in Govern ment incr eased sen ior deductibles by 28 percent on June 1, 19 86, and six

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 months later increased it by a further 16 percent, and you have the gall and the nerve to stand here and questio n a 12 percent increase. After two years, where are you coming from and where is your decency and where are your principles? I can assure you today that there will not be very many senior citizens who are happy about having to pay $8 per year more for their prescriptions. I can guarante e you that.

There are not going to be droves of Man itobans coming and bringing accolades for increa sing their Pharmacare deductible by $20 per fam ily in the Province of Man itoba, and I accept that. But when you are Government and you inherit a bloody mess from the NDP incompetence, you have to make some tough decisions. We are prepared to make them and we st and by them. Mr. Spea ker, I simply want to point out to you, in conclu ding my remarks on the Throne Speech debate, that if one reads the Throne Speech debate, they will find a number of initiativ es that are of benefit to Ma nitobans.

I take exception to the Mem ber for St . Johns (Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis) yest erday. The Memb er for St . Johns attempted to paint a picture of an uncaring Government that was ant i-women in the newly elected Prog ressive Conservative Gover nment un der the leader ship of my Leader, the Member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmo n). I simply want to tell Ma nitobans that it was the Pr ogressive Conservative Government that has now reversed a decision that was made by the NDP to close the only women's treat ment centre for women suffering from alcoholic problems in the Pr ovince of Man itoba.

That is an init iative that was announced in the Throne Speec h. We would not tolerate that closing of the residential program that the NDP were closing. * (14 30) I object to the Mem ber for St . Johns (Ms. Wasylycia Leis) pandering to this House, sayi ng we do not care about women and we do not care about women's issues, becaus e she sat in Treasury Board where that decision to close River House was made by an NDP Government. We have -(Interjection)- my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Doer), now says, "Oh, it was not us, it was the AFM, and we only provide funds to the AFM.

Therefore, they cut it and it is all the AFM's fault." I want to tell you what we had to do. We had to increase the funds to the AFM to reinstate that service at River House to women with problems with alcohol and drug abuse. We did that willingly , voluntarily and gladly because we care about women's issues, contrary to the phony issue put on the table by the Mem ber for St . Johns and her dirty dozen colleagues.

Enough of this sil liness in this House from an NDP Government that received support from only 22 percent of Man itobans because of their fiscal mismana gement, their poor direction in Government, their wretched management. Man itobans voted for a change and, as 78 percent of them sa id, enough of the previous administration. Today, those same Manitobans are going to say, enough of this silline ss of saying we do not care 269 about women's issues and forget the Conserva tive Government and the sillin ess that we do not care about sen ior citizens because we have raised their yearly deductible by $8 a year.

I reiterate and I close, had we not inherited $490 mill ion per year additional interest charges alone from the previous mismana gement of the NDP, we would have money for all kinds of wonderful programs. Thank you. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St . Norbert (Mr. Angus). Order, please. If Honourable Members would like to carry on a private conversation , we do have rooms off to the side of the Chamber. I wish we would give the courtesy to the Honourable Mem ber for St . Norbert in his Throne Speech. The Honourable Member for St . Norbert. Mr. John Angus (St.

Norbert): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me begin by suggesting that if there was less bl ame -shifting and less finger -pointing and more positive programs in a Throne Speech that told the people of this province exact ly how these guys were going to solve these problems, there might be an awful lot more respect from this side of the House on how they are going to do their job. There might be an awful lot more of us who are prepared to support their programs. Mr. Speaker , let me begin by welcoming you to the office of Speaker . I applaud you in your appointment.

I am very respectful of your position, and while I may get a tad anxious on occasion to make my points, it is simply the ambia nce of the club that I have come to join and the leadersh ip that is being shown through example on how I should be handling myself. You, Mr. Speaker , are one of the only Conservat ives who was kind enough to sit down with me and discuss with me what is happening in the House, what should be happening in the House, and how the House is to work in spite of the fact that I also have a number of so-called friends on that side of the House. So, Mr.

Speaker , I am very pleased that you have risen to this particular level. I am supportive of your position and I am supportive of the indications you have given to try and bring some respect, some decorum and some pol itene ss through the un usual tactic of perhaps listening. Mr. Speaker , my compliments to Mr. Mark Minenko , my colleague as we ll, the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, that guy over there. There are a number of people who I am required to thank. I feel very fortunate that I am here and there are people that I would like to acknowledge.

The very first person I would like to ack nowledge is the First Lady in my life, Janis, who is very sup portive and very cooperativ e all the time. The whole time that I was running, that I was pursuing this career, she was

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 standing beside me and helping me accomplish this task . I am very appreciative of her and my children, Colin and Susan, who are very, very supportive and very helpful in bringing me to this particular position. As well, the constituents who voted me in, the workers who helped me in my campaign and all of the people who have continued to support me in my effort to bring responsible Government to the Province of Man itoba. I would also like to thank my friend, Gerry Mercier .

I think tha t it would be very untoward if I did not ack nowledge the contribution that he has made both to university ward in the City of Winnipeg as six years as a city council lor and 12 years of being a very successful, very popular, very highly thought of MLA. Very early in the campaign, Mr. Mercier and I sat down and discussed the upcoming campaign and we agreed in conclusio n that we would let the people decide. I am very pleased that the people did decide because they did decide on my behalf and in my favour. But at the same time, we are all very respectfu l of the contribution that Mr. Mercier made .

I would also suggest that the St. Norbert constituency is one that is unique in the Province of Manito ba in that it has a number of quali ties that I think other communities would desire. lt has a Trappist Monastery that was founded some many decades ago and has been occupied in the St . Norbert area and has now been made an historical park by this Government . I am very proud of the traditio n that is in that area and I can remember as a boy in St .

Norbert when I was growing up that I used to go down there with my dogs and be chased by the Monks because they did not like us harassi ng them and their vows of silence and solitude that they maintain in that area on the banks of the La Sa lle River. Mr. Speaker, it is very important that I identif y the fact that I lived and grew up in St . Norbert , as my children did, because I think the community of St .

Norbert has an opportun ity to hold itself up as a model community in this country of how Angl ophones and Francophones can li ve together as Cana dians Canadians in cooperation, Canadians who are prepared to work out their problems, to work together to solve their community efforts. They do not always agree. They sometimes do viole ntly disagree with each other's opinions, but they respect the right to make decisions collectively .

If there is one thing that I am very, very concerned about, it is documents like Meech Lake which are divisiv e and designed to separate societies that have demonstrated in this country that they can work to get her, tha t they can ge t along and they can cooperate. There are some 26,0 00 people in my area and I have represented their interest for 12 years before I came to this particular position . In this area of the City of Winnipeg, there is a golf course, a university, a library, two great big parks in excess of 10 0 acres, and many other amenit ies including a hospital .

We have all of the things that a community requires and it is because people like myself and my prede cessors and the community at large have worked together cooperatively to bring these things to real ization . 270 (Mr . Deputy Speaker, Ma rk Minenko, in the Chair.) I think it would be untoward of me not to acknowledge the devel opment and the growth of the St . Nor bert constituency. We started out with Fort Richmond where, as a young boy, I used to ride horseback on Mr.

Holla nd's ranch right where the community is now, where the Silverstone Arena is, when the river banks were not developed and when the community was not there. I can well remember the fact that there were five individual and personable councillo rs in the old R.M. of Fort Garry led by the Ma yor, Mr. Dick Wankling, who was a personal friend of mine. I can still remember Ariel Cam peau from St . Norbert who took his time to visit with people, even young children at hockey teams, and talked to them about various things. Mr. Deputy Speaker , that is rep res entation by popularity and by population.

We st ill have that to a degr ee-r epr es entatio n by popularity . We have representation by individuals like myself who have been elected by a popular majority, by a majority who are prepared to support the things that I stand for and the things that I want to see done for this particul ar province . lt distresses me when I see the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) reduce the representation by populatio n in the whole of the City of Winnipeg which used to be 13 6 ind ividual elected councillo rs rep res enting their interes ts .

I kno w that ot her communities that are smaller than my ward have a numb er of people who are pre pared -in the municipalities around the province-to listen and talk to and stand on their record with the people . If they do not do their job, they are turfed out.

If they do their job, they are re-elected; but to see them wil ly-n illy without any consulta tion with the City of Winnipeg, with the stroke of a populist pen try to reduce the number of councillo rs who are going to represent the interest of the people of the City of Winnipeg, dist resses me. lt distresses me that they are taking that form of an att itude . * (14 40) I appr eci ate Mr . Orchard 's lec tur e on fiscal responsibility. I respect what he has said and I recognize that it is not an easy set of circumstances that they have been left with.

I am sure that they are going to be working dil igently and continually to try and rectify the problems as they see they should be rectified. lt also di st resses me when the Throne Speech indicates the amalgamation of departments and the destructio n of people in their jobs. I am concerned that that is not the only way to solve the fiscal problems that this province has, that there are other opportunities which are avai lable. I am encouraged by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) when he suggests to me that we can, as indi viduals, pro vide suggestions to him.

I am encouraged that he indicates openness and that he wants to communicate with us and he wants to hear our ideas. But it is very difficult when, as first elected

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 to this House, I find myself in a position of being many, many weeks wondering what is going on, trying to find out what the role of a critic is in this Government. When I finally have to confess to the Min ister in a publ ic forum that all I want is what any ordinary sales person would get if he happened to say to an individual Mi nister, "Tell me, what does your department do?" no mo re, no less-1 do not want him to give me any secrets of Cabinet privilege.

I do not want him to discuss with me those decision-mak ing things that they are going to be involved in because they have to hang their hat on those opportunit ies. I would like the courtesy of being made aware of what is going on in their departments, what can be happening. lt appears to me that the Rules of the House are an emba rrassment, that they are "stick it to them, try to catch them off guard." I will give you perfect examples of the lack of cooperation, the lack of list ening and the lack of understa nding.

When I stand up to ask a legit imate quest ion of whether or not water is something that we should be concerned about, I do not get specific ans wers.

When I hear rhetoric that evades the answers, when all I want to know is, on behalf of Man itobans, whether or not we as Manito bans have concern in this province about the protection of our rights under free trade; whether we are going to lose our rights to control our water; whether we are going to lose our rights to determine the prices of our hydro products; whether we are actually going to be forced to set up blood banks; whether we want to or not, to commerciali ze and sell blood -tho se are concerns that I have.

As a newcomer, I would hope that I would be able to get new blood from the Con servat ives that would give us information, give us answers , give us direction, because I think that is what the people of Ma nitoba want. They force us into framing our quest ions in such a way that they do not have specific answers, that they cannot give us the details that we want. I am a free trader, Mr. Deputy Speak er. I am a businessman. For most of my life, I have been a straight comm issioned salesman and I am sti ll a straight comm issioned sale sman . I am rewarded in di rect proportion to my ability to produce.

If I produce on behalf of the people that I represent, if I look after their needs, if I express their concerns adequately in this House, then I will be rewarded by being able to continue in this position. I have been all my life on that edge of a busi ness-oriented relationship with my income. I resent the fact that they suggest that I am anti free trade. Quite fran kly , there are a lo t of things in this agreement that are worth while. There are a lot of things that are very positive and a lot of things that are very desirable.

I do not want to be one of those people in Opposition who is cast into a role of negatively criticizing the Government in every aspect of everything they do. Belie ve it or not, I do want to cooperate, I do want to try and gel along, I do want to suggest to them in a positive fashion that there are improvements they can make, but they are not taking that position. They are putting the interests of a federal Party , the interest of an elect ion trumpet by their Prime Min ister, Brian Mu lroney, or the Prime Minister of Canada, ahead of 271 the interests of Man itobans. That disturbs me. lt does disturb me.

I think that we should be interested . I think we should be interested enough to say wait a minute, hear my ques tions, please pay attention to what I am sayi ng. You do not have to defend Brian Mulr oney to me. His arguments on free trade will be fought at a different level. lt will be fought in the Senate or it will be fought on the streets of Canada in an election process . By God, if there is the possibility that an individual will be able to, because of the lack of preparedness of the Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), because of the unawareness of the Minister of Health, because of the unconcern of the Minister of Health, because he will not take time to listen to what it is we, as Opposition, are tr ying to say to him ab out the possibi lit y of individuals going into a particular American medical institution and sel ling a pint of blood for their $5 or their $10 , if he wants to do that, then let him do it as a conscious decision.

If he wants to not do that, then let him say I do not want that in the Province of Mani toba because I do not want that in the Province of Manitoba. lt has nothing to do with whether Otta wa pa sses a free trade agreement or not. lt has to do with the quality of li fe that we demand and desir e as Man itobans. I wish that the Honour able Min ister of Healt h, who is so encouraging to us to contribute positive ideas, would pay attent ion to what we are trying to say and not just ignore us and walk away. lt becomes frustra ting, but I can learn to play the game if they insist on that.

I would rather not sink to that level . I would rather work in cooperative basis. I would rather see us work cooperat ively to get a fair price from a company like ManOil if we are going to sell it. I would rather see you say to me, "What ideas do you have, the Member for St. Norbert ?" I would rather see them come across and say, "How can we work together? ", rather than defending all the time, unjustly, not even being prepared to listen . lt ju st is very, very frustra ting. I think that we find that there is a certain deg ree of interest in being fiscal ly responsible. lt seems to be a catch word.

I am reminded of budgeting constraints that we have tried to enforce in the City of Winnipeg. I am going to avoid such cliches as penny-wise and pound foolish. I am going to tell you that I believe in fiscal responsibility. I believe in managing your House in a fashion that you can afford. I think that the people in Mani toba are agreeing with my description of a Liberal philosophy. My description is that those people who genuinely need help like the elderly , like the infirmed, like the mentally ill, like the physically handicapped, disadvantaged people of that nature, I am prepar ed to help them.

I am prepared to invest our tax dollars in helping those people because that is the type of society that I want to live in. But those people who are prepared to help themselv es and those people who can help themselves and those people who want to excel by their own specific and indiv idual effort, by God, let them do it! I do not swing as far to the left as my colleagues on this side of the House. I

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 do not believe in a crad le-to-grave logic of looking after them- those guys on that side over there- over there, Reg. Pay attent ion, eh! I do not go that far, but I do not swing back as far as these individuals across the Chamber, Mr. Deputy Speaker , because they go too far. My arguments at the city and in this election campaign to the people were very, very straig htforward. For six years, I was in the city and elected and represented my area while Premier Pawley and his Government ran this province .

They were very, very good on their social programs and the y were very, very short on their business skills . I said, for six years, I represented this area under Sterling Lyon and for six years they were very, very good on their business skills, but they did it at the expense of people and they did it at the expense of social programs. The people of St.

Norbert agreed with me when I said to them that there must be room in the middl e for some common sense, practical appl ication where we can make decisions that will help people as much as we possibly can and yet not penal ize them with things like the payroll tax, and not have disincentiv es, and not automatic al ly run to the taxation well every time we believe that we have got to solve a problem and try to shift the blame onto somebody else . St and up and be accountable and say this is what we stand for, this is what we are going to do, and if you have a better idea, come and talk to us about it.

I, for one, am prepared to listen to them . I would like to close my remarks by pledging to this House and to my colle agues and to the constituents of my area something that I read many, many years ago that affected me and I have always remembered it. Whenever I felt in need of some pick-me-ups, I have been able to recal l this particular express ion .

The expression goes like this: "I intend to pass through this world but once; any kind ness I can show to my fellow creat ure, let me do it now; let me not defer it or neglect it, for I may not pass this way again." I intend to apply myself dilig ently on behalf of my people, to work as hard as I can in their best interests, as cooperatively as I can with this Government and/ or with any other level of Government as long as they are prepared to share with me.

But if they close the door on me, if they do not want to hear my ideas, if they just want to belittle me as an individual and belittle the 26,000 people who I represent, I am not going to stand for tha t . I am sure my colleagues will not stand for that. We are for good Govern ment . We are for supporting this particular Government, but I think being prepared to sit here and support should not be misconstrued as a vote of confidence . I do not have the confidence in this Government that they can do the job. I do not have the confidence that they can do the job that they think they can do.

I do not have confidence based on the few short weeks that they have been in power, but I am prepared to give them a chance. But please, send them a message if you can. Let them know that we are sta nding for good Government and that is what we are going to support. That is what I am going to support, and that is what my colleagues will support . Thank you. 272 * (1 450) Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchi ll): As is customary in this Legislatur e, I would lik e to begin my comments today by offering to the Speaker my congratula tions on his election to the highest position in this Chamber.

That will require a great deal of patience, understa nding and firm guida nce on the part of the Speaker . lt is a task which I am certain the Speaker will exercise with both fairness and responsibili ty. lt will not be an easy task for the Speaker; nor, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , will it be an easy task for yourself when you occupy that Chair or when you occupy the Chair in the centre of the room here when we are discussing Estima tes during the Committee of Supply, for there are some very strongly held beliefs in this Chamber and emotion in this Chamber quite often runs high as the debate is undertaken and we discuss issues that are not only important to us as individuals but issues that are important to us as legisla tors and representativ es of the different constituencies across this province.

So the debate that is going to take place can somet imes lead to dif ferent stages of, as Beauchesne states it, heat and confusion . However, I have every confidence that the Speaker and yourself, Mr. Deputy Speaker , will attempt to fulfil! those responsi bilities to ensure that those debates are conducted in the most orderly fashion possible, in a fair and responsible manner. This is my fourth opportunity to participate in the first Throne Speech of a newly elected Legislature.

Four times I have been elected to represent the interests of those who live, work and raise their families in the Churchill const ituency. I am appreciativ e and thankful for their continuing support over the pa st decade and then some. Further to that, I am humbled by the responsi bility which they have entrusted with me on those four separate occasions.

This debate in reply to the Throne Speech provides a uniq ue oppo rt un ity to reco nfirm my personal dedicatio n and my personal commitment and that of my Party , the New Democrat ic Party Opposition, to work with all Northerners in helping them, in helping all of us build a stronger North, and, by building a stronger North, we are in fact building a stronger province and a st ronger country. lt is both interes ting and enlightening that at a time when voting patterns acro ss the province were undergoing some dramatic changes-and some very surprising shifts, I might add -tha t northern Mani toba did not desert the New Democrat ic Party.

That loyalty to the New Democrat ic Party did not just happen. No, that loyalty to the NDP is there because the NDP has been loyal to the North.

We have never broken faith with northern Man itoba, and that is why this last election was so particula rly humbling for, at a time when it was very obvious that we would not form the Government to electorate all across this province and in particular to electorate in northern Man itoba, the North, northern Manito ba itself sent five NDP MLAs to this Legislature to protect their interests and to speak loudly and to fight hard for those things that they as Northerners value most .

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 Northerne rs in all northern electoral constituen cies showed that faith in the New Democratic Party at the time of that election . They demand no more out of that faith than that which the rest of the province enjoys . At the same time, they expect no less than that which the rest of the province enjoys, and they will accept no less than that which the rest of the province enjoys .

Nor the rners want only the same oppor tunity to partici pate in building a better province and stronger communities in which they can live and work and raise their families, the same opportunity as is avai lable to all other Man itobans. What are some of the specific things that Northerners would like to see us, we as legislators, add ress on their behalf? Norther ners want the chanc e to work at meaningful, productive jobs.

No matter what community you travel into in northern Man itoba, whether it be Red Sucker Lake, a community which I have enjoyed visiting on numerous occasions and the home of my colleague, the Member for Rupertsland (Mr.

Harper); or whether it be Brochet or Lac Brochet or Shama tta wa or Tadoule Lake or Granvi lle Lake or South Indian Lake or Split La ke or York La nding, all com mun it ies in my constituency; or whether it be Churchill or Gillam, Lynn La ke, Leaf Rapids, Sundance, the ind ustrial communities in the Churchill constituen cy, Northerners in all those communities have as their main priority the same thing and tha t is the opportunity to work at productive jobs .

They want their fair shar e of jobs at Hydr o construction sites and it does not matter whether they come from Red Sucker Lake or Tadoule Lake or Churchill . They would like to have the opportun ity to partici pate in building our vast hydro potential in northern Manitoba . That maybe is one of the reasons why they sent five northern ML As back to the Legislatur e as New Democrats. They were really qu ite upset when the Conservatives said that they were not in favour of preferential hiring claus es for northern Natives, which they said very clearly in this House during the Ses sions previous.

I understood what that meant. That meant that if there were construction projects ongoing in northern Ma nitoba and if there was a Conservat ive Govern ment, there would be far less likely a chance that there would be preferential hiring clauses in the contracts that would ensure them nothing more but nothing less than a fair share of the jobs on Hydro construction sites . They also know that those jobs and the opportunity that they represent for Northerners all across the province, and for Southerners as well, would disappear if Hydro construction is stopped .

That is why they were alarmed when the Liberal Leader (Mrs. Carstairs) refers to the Limestone project as "Lemonstone" and when she says that she would stop Hydro construction in northern Manitoba. The Me mber for Arthur (Mr . Downey) is sayi ng that is what she said, and she was also critical of McK enzie See ds, jobs for friends. The Liberal Leader agrees that yes, in fact , that is what she did say because it is a matter of the record.

Very clearly, and I can remember the chagrin in the demeanour of the Liberal candida te in the Churchill constituency when it was reported that 273 his lea der-the Liberal Leade r- had stood up in Thompson and said that if a Liberal Government were elected , they would stop Hydro construction and were so critical of the ongoing Hydro construction that they termed it "Lemonstone." Now I know that the Conservat ives have not really been any great fans of Hydr o projects such as Limestone. Hon.

Edward Connery (Mini ster of la bour; Environment, Workplace and Health): If they are profitable, you had better believe it . Mr. Cowan: The Min ister of Labour and Environment (Mr .

Connery) says if they are profitable, they would be supportive and I think if that is the case then we will find their support coming on stream very quickly because those are going to be, and they are, in fact , very profitable projects . * (15 00 ) But the fact is that even with their skepticism and their cynicism which has stopped them from proceeding with Hydro construction projects in the past , they have never demeaned existing projects to the extent that the Liberal Leader did during the election when she called the Limestone project "Lemonstone ." Of course, the Northerners also know full well and they remember qu ite well what happened under the Lyon Conser vat ives when Limestone construction was not in existence, when the const ruction project was stopped for four long years, and even the community of Sundance was shut down and mothballed .

So they are not going to forget very soon what a Conservat ive Gov ernment means to hydro projects in northern Manitoba. What is concerning them now is the fact that the newly appointed chairperson of the board for Hydro is again taking that same anti- development position when it comes to Hydro construc tion in northern Man itoba . He is sayi ng the same things that were said under the Lyon administration when the Limestone project was shut down for those four long years .

What concerns them is not only his words alone but the encouragement that he has gotten in the past and I imagine will continue to get from the Liberals in respect to criticism and the mothballing of Hydro projects in northern Man itoba . Not only do Northerners want to be able to work in their own communities, they want to be able to work in productive jobs, building better communities through their own efforts, and that is what I believe to be unfair and arbitr ary cutba cks in northern projects under the Man itoba Com mu nity Pla ces Program and so depressed northern Manitobans .

Once again, it is obvious that with the Conser vatives in Government, there will be cutbacks in services, programs and opportunities in northern Man itoba that go far beyond what cutbacks take place in other parts of the province. If there was a region of this province that was particularly hurt during the Lyon administration, it was northern Man itoba .

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 Given the facts that we have all seen presented in this Chamber to date respect ing the recent cut backs in the Manit oba Communit y Pl aces Program , it is obvious that if there is a region that has been hurt more than others by those cutbacks it is northern Ma nitoba . So it is the same old story once agai n. Once again, it is obvious that the Conservat ives will continue that trad ition of cutting back those programs, servic es and opportunities for Northerners. I would not find that quite so depressing, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, if in fact I felt tha t the Liberal Opposition, the Official Opposition - Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Her Majesty's Official Opposition. Mr. Cowan: Yes, indeed . The Mem ber for Lake side, who is the Dean of this Legisla ture, says. Her Majest y's Loyal Opposition.

In this case, I think they are being a bit too loyal to the Government when they, too, say that if they were in power they would cut back the Jobs Fund, they would cut back job creation programs, and they would undertake the same sort of regressive actions which the Conservative Government has al ready star ted with its cutbacks on the Man itoba Community Pl aces Program . As a matter of fact , I recal l very distinctly the Liberal Leader (Mrs.

Carstairs), previous to and during the last election campaig n, sayi ng tha t she would cut back on the Jobs Fund if not elimina te it totally , cut back on Jobs Fund projects. The Manitoba Community Pla ces Program is only one of the many programs in northern Man itoba that had provided opportunities for Northerners to work in their own commun ities, to build tho se stronger communities . Quite frankly, they value that program very dearly. They do not want to see those sorts of programs elimi nated , reduced or cut back.

As a matter of fact , given their choice, they would want to see those types of programs increased because there is a crying need in northern Man itoba for productive jobs and for help to communiti es to build those stro nger communities. Northerners also want to be able to exercise more cont rol over their own des tiny . They want self Government to be more than just a long sought after goal or some theoretical initia tive that never takes root in reality .

They want to be able to shape their own future through greater control of their own communities and greater control over the land that they have inhabited for centuries upon centu ries . That is why they were so dis appointed when the Premi er of the Co nservative Government betrayed his own understan ding of this issue and his own understandi ng of the aspirations of aboriginal people by paying lip service to self-Gov ernment at a time when the concept of self-Gov ernment required support right across this country.

In paying lip service to that concept, he did little more than mouth the lines of Premier Vander Zal m, Pr emier Getty and Premier Devine in sayi ng that this Government, his Government, the Conservative Government, cannot support self-Government until it can be more fully defined . We know that has been the criticism that those three Premiers, which I mentioned previously, all Conservative 274 or Conservative -thinking Premiers, have used on every occasion when they wanted to stall the constitutio nal talks which could have resulted in greater levels of self control for Nativ e people and aboriginal people.

Aboriginal people deserve respect for their aboriginal rig hts and for their aspi rati ons. They de se rve acknowled gment of those aboriginal rights and they go beyond hunting, fishing and trappi ng; but those are the three areas that are foremost in the minds of aboriginal people and Governments when they sit down at the const itutional tables . For that reason , they are priorities . They also demand respect for what they are as productive members of Canadian society and the val ues that they bring to all of us.

Tha t is why they were shocked and extremely disillus ioned when they heard the Lib eral Leader stereotype all Nativ e people by blam ing Nativ e time when Nati ve leaders in Norway House were not on hand to meet her. What did she say at that time? I think it is important to put on the record her comments when she was upset during the latter part of the campaign after she took a trip into Norway House and the Nati ve leaders that she thought were supposed to meet her were not there.

She sai d, and I quote, "We never know if we will get two people or 20 and they always get the time wrong ." Now what does that tell you about the att itude of the Li beral Leader -a nd I expect she speaks on behalf of her Part y-in respect to Nativ e values? lt tells me that either they do not have a very good understan ding of Nativ e values or tha t they do not have very much respect for Nativ e values .

In that one short statement she betrayed a complete misunderstan ding of northern circumstances and, I believe, an unacceptable lack of respect for all Na tive people. lt was not I alone who believed that to be the case, because if you look at what Na tive people said in response to that sta tement, the y felt to o tha t she had bet rayed a lack of understa nding and respect for their values . lt is important to note that this incident involving the Liberal Leader took place the very same day that Conservatives in one of their campaign flig hts were mimicking Nati ve accents in front of a media on a northern flight.

The individual who did that, I understand has been appointed to a higher posit ion in the Government now, following that incident, but I do not think it is connected . * (15 10) Northerners, beyond wanting respect for their values, for their cultur e, for their aspi rations and their goals, want to be able to access the same Government programs and services that are availa ble to other Mani tobans in their home communities .

That is why the pr evious Government, the New Democratic Party Government, when it had the opportunity put in place so many special programs such as the Air Ambulance Program, the Special Access Educational Programs or training programs at community levels, and the list goes on and on. We did that because we know that in order for those programs to be most effective, they have to add ress the needs of the individuals that they are

Wedn esday, August 3, 1988 designed to serve. They can best add ress those needs in so many instanc es at the community level . Tha t is not to say that every prog ram can be imp lemented in a dec entr al ized man ner at the community level, but it is to say that when reviewing programs and considering act ivities, one should take into considera tion those val ues and those aspira tions and those goals, and wherever possible go out of their way to the extent possible to define program parameters and to set up the framework of those programs in such a way so as they can be accessed at the community level.

That is why Northerners are really quite apprehensive about the fixat ion and the fiscal that dominates the Con servat ive philo sophy .- (Int erject ion) - The Conservative Mem bers from their seat are sayi ng "N o, it does not." I think, if they look very clearly at the record to date and the act ions that they have taken, and if they look at the actions that they have not taken and the activitie s that they have not undertaken , then it becomes very clear very quickly that they are, in fact , fixated on the fisca l.

They are going to put fiscal concerns ahead of all else.- (Int erjection)- The Mem ber for Arthur (Mr. Downey) says those are only my thoughts. He is half right, those are certainly my thoughts; but he is wrong when he says those are only my thoughts because when I talk to Northerners, when I talk to people who have the most to lose if a Government betrays their confidence, they tell me that they are apprehensive, they are frightened, they are scared, given past experience, as to what could happen under this Government.

What this Government has been sayi ng since it has been elected is giving no confidence to them that they will do anything other than retreat to that regressive right-wing reactionary restraint- minded mentality . So it is not only my thoughts, but it is the thoughts of hundreds of thousands of Ma nitobans across this province. They have seen the result of that right-wing mentality from 19 77 to 19 81.

A lot of Mem bers in this House today were not in this House at that time, but I think they saw from their particular vantage point the impact of acute protracted rest raint on the entire province, but perhaps they did not see as well the impact of acute protracted restrai nt and the Cons ervative mentality in northern Ma nitoba, because it was devastat ing. lt set the North back for decades.

When we assu med power in 19 81, our first job, our first responsibility was just to spend the first number of months and perhaps even years undoing the damage tha t had been done in four shor t years under a Conservative Government. Quite frankly, we do not want this Government to have four years to be able to impose that same sort of devas tation and destruction in northern Manitoba so that we will have to spend that much time when we again regain power and assu me responsi bility for programs and for policies in northern Man itoba.

While some in this room may not remember those hard times in the North, northern Ma nitobans remember 275 those hard times. They see all the same signs of a resurgence of acute protracted restraint start to show through the smiling facade of the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Conservat ive Government as they stand in this House to an swer questions, as they attend mee tings and as they go to press conferences.

But what they find even more disconcerting is that the Liberals in this Chamber, to quote one legis lativ e reporter, are and I quote: " ... out right-winging the Conservatives ." That is what was said, and I now know why we sit in this particular

section in the Legislatur e because, if the Conservat ives and the Liberals sat together, one would be unable to tell the difference between the two and there would be sort of an osmosis. I think they would just sort of melt over into this and they would melt over into this, because I know that there are some Mem bers on this side who are more left-wing thinking, not more left wing, than some of the Mem bers on this side, and I know that there are some Liberals, and the Leader included on many issues, are more right-wing-minded than some of the Mem bers on that side. Mr.

Harry Enns (Lakeside): But Jay, they tend to wear red ties. Just check, even bow ties. See, most of them wear red ties. That is how you can tell us apart. They wear red ties. Mr. Cowan: The Mem ber for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) has told me that the reason that we can tell them apart is that the Liberals wear red ties and the Conservat ives wear ... Mr. Enns: . . . a few of us have a few red spots. Mr. Cowan: The Mem ber for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) now tells me, and points to his own tie, that a few of the Liberals have a few red spots in their own ties. I wonder if ther e is any significance in that.

However, time will tel l. They find disconcerting that right-wing approach of the Liberals. The Liberals are opposed to Limestone. The Liberals are opposed to the Jobs Fund. When we bring up an important environmental issue in this Chamber, what do the Liberals do? They consult with Hudson Bay Mining and Smelt ing and then they take the side of the Conservatives. I think it was an important comment that should be repeated when our Leader, in wal king by one of the Liberal Members in the hall, said to him, you defend Dow Chemical. That is exactly what the Liberals are doing.

When they had a choice to make, and there are all sorts of times that we have to make choices in this Chamber, they chose to side with the Liberals, with the Conservat ives - see even I get the two confused when spea king-on a major environmental issue. There was no di ffere nce whatsoever. The Liberals during the election sug gested that hospital patients could pay for meals, toothpaste and other incidentals, non-essen tials. These are the types of comments that, qu ite fran kly, define what the Liberal Party is in Mani toba and encourage those who want to take a hard look at what the Liberals are to make

Wednesday, Aug ust 3, 1988 --------------------- the sta tements such as they are out-right-winging the Conservatives , because in fact they are. What particula rly bothered me was the Liberals' decision to vote with the Conservatives against a motion for an emergency debate on the Port of Churchill. That brings us to the issue of this year 's shipping season for Churchill.

I want to focus on that issue for a bit, because I believe the way by which the Government has dealt with this crisis-and it is a crisis-a nd the way by which the Liberals have responded to our efforts to force the Conservative Government to act more aggressively in support of the port is illus trativ e of a lack of commitment to the Port of Churchill specifically and to the North in general. (The Acting Speaker , Ed Helwer, in the Chair.) Firstly, the issue before us goes far beyond this year's shipping seas on, and I think the Mem ber for Arthur (Mr .

Downey) and the Min ister of Hig hways and Transportat ion (Mr. Driedger) will agree that is the case. Let there be no doubt about it. There are some very powerful interests at work against the Port of Churchill. They have been at work against the Port of Churchill for a very long time and they will use every opportunity, every occasion, every chance that they get to degrade, to denigrate and to diminish the impact of the Port of Churchill in the overall shipping industry in the country. That is a historical fact , and I do not think anyone in this Chamber would deny it. I know the Mem ber for Lakes ide (Mr.

Enns) would certainly agree with it and I think other Mem bers would agree with it. (Mr. Deputy Speaker , Mark Minenko, in the Chair.) While this opposition most of the time is an undercurrent, from time to time, it ris es to the surface such as the time the Conservative, Jack Murta, said very clearly that the Port of Churchill is a luxury that we cannot afford. That undercurrent in that particular instance was rather obvious, that there are those who are opposed to the Port of Churchill and who will speak out agains t the Port of Churchill.

We have to bear tha t in mind when we review the situa tion tha t confronts us today. A second consideration, if no grain is shipped through Churchill this year, it will be that much harder to get grain shipped out of the port next year. I looked at the Min ister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) for confirmation of that, because I think with a nod of his head he can say that will be the case. In fact , that will be the case.

The excuse that is being used for not shipping grain out of the Port of Churchill this year, and it is an excuse, is that the drought is having an impact on the abil ity to ship grain to and through that particular port. Well, Churchill works off of last year 's grain shipments historical ly. Last year was a banner year for grain exports, a record year for grain exports in this country.

So if Churchill is working off of last year's shipments in most instances and last year was a record year, there should be no problem in finding grain to ship through the Port of Churchill this year, so that excuse do es not wash at all. * (1 520) 276 That is why I was somewhat surprised when the Min ister of Northern Affai rs (Mr. Downey) from his seat , when I introduced the emergency resolution, came forward with that excuse by way of aside comment. lt just does not make logical sense. I look to my friend over there, who is very wel l versed in logic, for confirmation of that.

If in fact it works off of last year, if last year was a banner year, then there should be no problem finding grain for Churchill in this particular year. But if in fact it does work off of last year's shipments or the previous year 's shipments and this year is a drought year and the shipments are down, then next year it will be more difficult to find grain for the Port of Churchill. So if we do not have a shipping season this year, we are really ta lking, unfortuna tely so, about the extreme likelihood of not having grain to ship through the Port of Churchill next year. What that tells me, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , is that we are in fact facing the potential beginning of the end for the Port of Churchill. If you do not have grain shipped out of that port for two years and there are powerful interests at work, then in fact we will have a situation where it will be nigh on impossible to get that port started agai n. Now I hear the Mem ber for Arthur (Mr. Downey), and I am going to digress for one moment. Mr. Deputy Speaker , can you tell me approximately how much time I have left ? An Honourable Member: Unlimited time. Mr.

Cowan: Those who are saying they will give me unli mited time have not heard me speak in this House before.- (Interjection)- Some of you have. I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Spea ker, could you advise me as to how much time I have? Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber has 10 minutes. Mr. Cowan: Ten minutes. Then I will digress very briefly. The Mem ber for Arthur (Mr. Downey) is very prone to cast suggest ions across the floor either from his feet or from his seat that, when in Government, we did not do much for the Port of Churchill.

He ignores the Port of Churchill Development Agreement, he ignores the Hydro line in Churchill, he ignores the dredging, he ignores the new tug, he ignores all sorts of activit ies which took place. Let him do that because those, while su bstantive, really could not be said as having sole impact on the Port of Churchill. There is only one statistic that one could us e to determine whether or not the port was far ing better under one set of cir cumstanc es of tha t particular Gov ernment as opposed to another Government. (Mr.

Speaker in the Chair.) Quite fortunately, we have the stat istics available to us !or the amount of grain which was shipped for export th rough the Port of Chur chill un der the Lyon administra tion, 19 78 shipping year to 19 81 shipping year, and the amount of grain which was shipped under the New Democratic Party administra tion from 19 82

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 on. In the Lyon years, on avera ge, 460,000 tonnes were shipped through the Port of Churchill on average on an annual basis. As a matter of fact , one year under their admin istra tion, there was the lowest tonnage shipped out of the Port of Churchill since 19 55, and that was only 380,000 tonnes. Under the NDP administra tion, the last number of years, the six years, the annual average was 527,000 tonnes.

So in fact, there was mor e shipment of grain on an export basis in the Port of Churchill on an annua l basis under the New Democratic Party administration than there was under the Conservative administration. That is the one criteria that is definitive. How much grain goes through the port? What I am afraid is that what is at stake here today is the future of the Port of Churchill, and time is fast running out. We are approaching the point of no return for this year 's shipping season. The fact is tha t there has been no grain shipped to the port this year, and that is unprecedented .

I have talked to individuals in the Port of Churchill, I have talked to individuals in the community, and none of them can remember a time when the elevators were not full or nearly full at this point in time in the shipping season. None of them can remember a time when it was not full in July. The fact is that there are about 10 ,000 tonnes sitt ing there now, less than one ship, much less than one ship, and there are no shipments being contempla ted right now for the Port of Churchill-n one whatsoever.

In every other year for at least the la st 10 and probably far beyond that, grain has been shipped to the Port of Churchill by the end of July. As well, there are no ships currently scheduled for the port. Again, this is highly unusual and I look to the Min ister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) whom I think is trying very hard to make certain that there is a shipping season in Churchill this year. I talk to him about it every day and he tells me he is attem pting and making contact and pushing and prodding every day, and I believe that to be the case.

But, as a matter of fact , in four out of the past 10 years, ships would have al ready arrived in the Port of Churchill by August 3-in four out of the last 10 years. In no case during those few years has a first ship arrived at a port any later than Augus t 14. That is how close we are at the time running out. Because remember, this situa tion is growing even more serious and even more extremely urgent day by day because it takes considerable lead time to arrange grain shipments and ship arrivals at any port. Churchill is no except ion, we need action now.

As a matter of fact , we should have had that action a few weeks ago. That is why the New Democratic Party Opposition put forward the motion for an emergency debate and an ail- Party delega tion to travel to Ottawa to lobby the federal Conservative Government and its agencies such as CNR and the Wheat Board to ensure that there was a shipping season at the Port of Churchill today. You should also know, Mr. Speaker, seve ral hours before I introduc ed that motion in this Legisla ture, I sent a copy of that motion to the Conservat ive House 277 Leader and to the Liberal House Leader and a letter.

In that letter, I asked for their support of the motion and I asked them to call me if they wanted to discuss the motion. Did they ca ll? No. Did they take up the offer to work together? No. What did they do? While the Liberals built up arguments as to how to explain why it was, they were voting against the Port of Churchill emergency resolution and immediately put together a rat her tr ansp arent Priv ate Members' Resolution. Now I want you to know, Mr. Speaker, that I am prepared to sup port the earli est possi ble consideration of that Priv ate Mem bers' Resolution.

I do not think it is a perfect resolution; it may even be that we want to amend it to make it better. But I do think it is important that we work together to the extent possible just as we had the opportunity to work together the other day to make certain that time does not run out on the Port of Churchill. Well, that resolution will not hide the fact that when they had the chance to stand up and support the Port of Churchill resolution in this Legislature, they chose instead to stand up in support of the Conservat ives agains t our resolution. Later in the hallw ays, the Liberal Leader (Mr s.

Carstairs) explained their failure to support the port by saying that she tends to side with voting with the Speaker, which means voting agains t the emergency debate unless it is truly an emergency. When the Liberal Leader sat in this House for three Ses sions or at least two-and -a-half or a portion thereof, there were eight separate votes on emergency debates in which she participated -eight separate votes. Six times she voted agains t the Speaker and with the Conservat ives. She is shaking her head, no.

So in 19 86, 19 87 and 19 88, she voted agains t the Speaker 75 percent of the time; now she is voting with the Speaker 10 0 percent of the time. What is even more interesting is what she had to say when she did participate in emergency debates, because not only did she vote agains t the Speaker and in favour of the emergency debates, when the emergency debates were held she partici pated in them. * (1 530) The one I want to reference coincidentally is an emergency debate about grain shipments. At that time, the emergency debate which was ruled out of order by the Speake r-Mr .

Speaker, you should know that was proceeded with because as Government House Leader, I, on behalf of the Government, gave unanimous consent on our Party. All our Members gave unanimous consent, as did the Li beral Leader of the day, as did the Conservat ives, for the de bate to proceed even although it had been ruled out of order. So with that unanimous consent, people began speak ing and lo and behold, the Leader of the Liberal Party at that time was one of these speakers. The issue of the day was a grain handlers strike at Thunder Bay, and during that debate the Leader of the Liberals (Mr s.

Carstai rs) made a number of interesting comments. First ly, she said that she would like to see the workers legisla ted back to work. Yes, she said that

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 in her comments. But that is a bit of an aside. Secondly. and what is more important, there are two other statements she made at that time that are appl icable to the Churchill situa tion. In the first instance, she criticized the Government of the Day, which was the NDP Government, for not approaching the Conservat ive critic or herself, to put together a common position that could be sent to Ottawa on behalf of the Legislature to try to put an end to the grain handlers strike. That is exactly what I had tried to do in my emergency resolution.

I called for an all-Pa rty delega tion, an all Party delega tion tha t inclu ded all Parties in this le gisla ture, as we ll as repr esenta t ives of other interested groups outside of this leg islature. I sent a letter to the House leaders of the other caucuses previous to the introduction of that resolution ask ing for their support. So not only did we recommend an all Party non-partisan delega tion, we als o approached them for their support before we went ahead with the resolution.

But even more important ly, what she said at that time, which is a bit of contradiction to what she is saying now, is, "What matters is that grain is not being loaded onto ships." So the li berals want an emer genc y deba te, participate in an emergency debate when there is grain not being loaded in Thunder Bay, but when there is grain not being loaded in Churchill, they deny the opportunity for that debate to take place, and they say -(Interjection)- I am sorry, perhaps the li beral leader (Mr s. Carst airs) would care to make that comment again. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member's time has expired. Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): M. le president, je voudrais me joindre a tous ceux qui vous ont presents leurs felicitations. la charge que vous occupez est le sym bole de la fiere tradition de democratie parlementaire. Je suis siir que votre sens de !a justice, votre intelligence et la loyaute dont vous avez fait preuve a l'egard de notre patri moine politique inspiront aux membres de cette ass emblee le sens de la dignite de leurs fonctions. (Translation) Mr. Speaker, I would like to join all those who have extended their congratulations to you.

Your position sy mb ol izes the proud tradition of parlia men tar y democracy in our province. I am confident that your sense of fairness, your intellig ence and the loyalty you have demonstrated to our political heritage will inspire in the Mem bers of this Assembly a sense of dignity in their duties. May I also congratula te my colleague, the Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenk o), on his elect ion to the pos ition of Deputy Speaker . We kn ow that his performance of those important duties will be bolstered by his sense of fair play and to allo w competing points of view.

There are many people I would like thank on such an important day for me. At the top of the list are my 278 wife and children, who have coped so well through a chaotic period in family life. They know that fam ily always comes first. And to all those volunteers, who sacrificed their own family lives to help during the campaig n, to them I say, the victory is yours. As all Mem bers of this Cham ber know so well, it is the energy and the dedication of all those friends and supporters which makes politics exciting and rewarding.

The debt we owe to those men and women is the promise of service and of integrity. lt is with great pride and a sense of partnership that I take a seat in this Chamber beside my lead er. She is a person with great strength and good courage. Her exam ple inspires all of us in the liberal caucus, and we kno w tha t her intellig ence, deter mina tion and integrity will lead us down the path of history, the pat h leads to take the first woman in Canadian history into the Premier's Office.

Much has been said about the inexperience of our caucus. lt is true we have little experience with this forum of legis lativ e debate. We will have to work harder than more experienced Mem bers to learn the Rules of the House. But let me say this, Mr. Speak er, there is no caucus more energetic, more dedicated to public service, more reflective of our community or more prepared for new challenges than the men and women who make up the Official Opposition in this le gislature. I take this traditional opportunity to thank the people of Fort Rouge for their vote of confidence.

I know full well that the trans fer of trust from the people to their elected repr esentat ives is the lifeblood of our democratic system. We serve them only so long as we serve them wel l. More experienced Members of this House know better than I that any betrayal of that tr ust undermines our legitima cy as politicians, and leads only to a speedy resumption to priv ate life. As I look around this Chamber, I see many fam iliar faces and some old friends. May I make special mention of the Mover of the Throne Speech, the Honourable Mem ber for lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik), whose wife along with mine and many others in this Chamber, will give birth likely during the course of this leg islativ e Sess ion. I am pleased to sit in this House with him and I wish him well. Mem bers may know that I spent many years as a journalist, writing about politics, and in some cases writ ing about them. Through those associations I made many friends, most of whom never allo wed the momenta ry tensions that come up between politicians and journalists to break the bond of collegialit y. lt is my hope, Mr.

Speaker, that the cut and thrust of partisan debate will not erode the mutual respect that builds over months and years. As an example, my relationship with the First Minister (Mr. Fi!mon) goes back many years, and as some Mem bers likely know, I ran against him in the election of 19 86. I ran hard and I lost, but I lived to fight another day. I can remember the people of Tuxedo who said to me that it was very difficult to vote against the Leader of the Opposition. I can also remember them sayi ng that he was rather good at it. We are confident that nostalgia will set in very soon and the First Min ister

Wednesday, August 3, 1988 will be restored to the chair he found so comfortable, right here beside me in this Cham ber. But we should take nothing for granted for my honourable friend, the Member for Concordia, may have his own designs on this chair. I take particular pleasure in representing the constituenc y of Fort Rouge. There is a fine trad ition esta blished by Liberals who have served the constitue ncy so wel l. May I mention June Westbury and the Honourable Uoyd Axworthy, both of whom understood the needs of their constituents. They have set an example that I will striv e to equal .

May I also wish my predecessor wel l, Roland Penner. He is a man of principle and dedica tion, and while we do not share a political vis ion, I know that students of the law will benefit from his keen mind and breadth of knowledge. Fort Rouge is a very special place. The name itself is deeply rooted in our province's history, dating back to the travels of La Verendrye in the late 18 th Centu ry. Sadly , Mr. Speaker, it is a name which may be lost in the shuffle if the proposed new boundaries take effect.

Indeed the birthplace of west ern Canada at the forks of the Red and Ass iniboine Rivers is the eas tern boundary of the constituenc y. The tra gic neglect of our rivers is one of the shameful legacies of succeeding governments. The vast potential of these rivers, their potential and source of recreat ion for our people has been lost and squan dered by short-sightedness. * (15 40) This Government's determination to revital ize The Forks must not be seen as an end in itself, but rather it is only the beginning of a commitment, long overdue to return our rivers to the people.

Just a short stroll from The Forks is the corner of Portage and Main, which is st ill the sym bol of our industrial devel opment as a province, renowned for the powerful winds which whistle out of the north. The corner is now blocked off to pedest rian traffic, Mr. Speak er, a decision which has deprived Winnipegers and visitors alike from one of life's memorable moments during the heart of the Prairie winter. Fort Rouge is also home for the most recent example of urban revital ization in Winnipeg.

The North Portage development has replaced the physical decay of our downtown with new structu res and a bright new look, but let us not fool ourselves, Mr. Speaker . The ugly and uncomfortable real ity of human misery and degradation has not been altered . lt has been simply moved to a less visible place. We must not be content with the strategy for urban renewal which only rents bulldozers and construction cranes. The people who have been displa ced by so-called progress , the poor and the homeless, deserve equal opportunity to better themselves and their families.

Training and jobs are what these people need, a sense of hope to displa ce the despai r which accompanies the vicious cycle of poverty which is passed on from generation to generation. This Government must never forget those among us who, through the accidents of birth and circumstance, struggle to maintain their dignity and their sense of worth. The most exciting moments of the election campaign for me were thos e visits to the Central Park 279 neighbourhood.

Here during the course of an evening I met men, women and children from all over the world; from Chile and El Salvador, the Philippines and Vietnam, Poland and Russia, Hungary and Nicaragua, Hong Kong and Ethiopia. lt is difficult to find words that do justice to the excitement and vitality these people bring to their adopted land. They are here because they have the power to see opportunity and to see hope. In many cases they left behind persecution and poverty to take a chance in a country whose langua ges they do not speak, whose culture they do not understand and whose cli mate they could scarcely imagine.

But remarkabl y, time and time again, the human spirit overcomes impossible odds and prevails. This is the story of our province and of our country. How many of us in this Chamber can trace their roots in Canada back to Conf ederation? I think only a very few. The rest of us though are citizenship to a pioneering spirit so present in our parents and grandparents which combined with an open and free society to build a country which thrives on its diversity. The immigrant experience is fresh in the minds of many Manitobans.

Those of us who have been here awhile ought never to forget the challenges which our forefathers met and overcame. Multi culturalism is not only food and drink, costume and dance, although the se elements of cultur e are important. Mul ticulturalism, to have any meaning at all, is a respect for difference, the tolerance for diversity and a commitment to equal ity of opportunit y. lt is regrettable that the Throne Speech offers only platitudes on this subject. I would like to make one other point, and perhaps I am well positioned to make it.

Our political system is deeply rooted in the British parliam entary tradition. The genius of our institutions has evolved from the mother of parliaments in Westminster, and I have a deep and an abiding respect for the legacy of freedom and democracy we inherit from the British. Fort Rouge is also home to the world famous Royal Winnip eg Ballet. The excellent partnersh ip forged between the public and the private sect ors has made it possible for this first-rate dance company to move into a state of the art facility.

While the RWB may be our most renowned cultur al organization, it is only one of many accomplished artistic groups in our province. lt has often been said that Winnipeg boasts a richer and broader cultu ral life than any city of com parable size in the world, and our good fortune should never be taken for granted . We, in the Liberal Par ty, will not sit quietly by if this Government reduces its commitment to our province's cultu ral growth. May I say that the former Government did rather better in this regard than in many other areas of public policy. Mistakes were made and opportunities were lost.

We must pay more atten tion to developing cultural opportunities outside the City of Winnipeg; we also, with all their rhetoric, that Government neglected grass root incentiv es in small towns and villa ges of Ma nitoba. So too did it overlook the potential created by huge windfall profits generated by the gambling habits of Ma nitobans. Lottery revenues are now used to finance the ongoing operat ions of cultur al and spor t ing

Wednesday , August 3, 19 88 organizations. This policy is contrary to the original purpose establis hed for gaming monies, namely to fund capital initiatives and one-time projects. I hope the Honourable Minister of Cultur e, Recreation and Heritage (Mr s. Mitchelson) will have a look at some of the innovative ideas which are originating from this side of the House and the Liberal Pa rty, including the concept of establishing endowment funds which could be matched by contributions from the private sector so that Man itobans may enjoy a more secure funding base for its cultur al and sporting life. Mr.

Speaker , Mem bers may be interested to know that I spent five years playing the oboe in the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. Now if that is not a first in polit ics in Mani toba, I would lik e to hear about it. lt is often said that an oboe is an ill wind that nobody blows good. I hope Honourable Mem bers will find other ways of describing my own performance in this House. Fort Rouge may best be known for the Osborne Villa ge-! will have a chance to deal with the Mem ber for Arthur (Mr. Downey) later in my remarks. lt is here where small busine sses contribute so much to community life.

These risk-taking entrepreneurs are the backbone of our economy. We often pay lip service to the small business sector and then proceed to drown proprietors in red tape and bureaucrat ic baffleg ab. Let me say that the Liberal Party believes in free enterprise, and we will support initiatives to remove unnecessary obstacles to growth and development. The Osborne Villa ge is well served by active and effective community groups which add so much to neighbourhood life. During this year's Canada Day celebra tions, the constituency was al ive with excitement.

Raft races down the river, games for the children, liv e music for everyone are only a sample of the two-day festival organized and managed by residents and shop owners. Fort Rouge includes all of downtown Winnipeg. Living downtown has not been in vogue for decades but at la st some prog ress is being made. I might add that there is a local issue brewing right now which relates to the temporary closure of Assi niboine Avenue just behind this very building. I will not go into detail because I have already discussed the matter with the Min ister of Government Services (Mr. Driedger).

I am confident he will take the necessary steps to ensure that residents and businesspeople will be widely consulted before any permanent position or proposals are in place. I suppose, in a way, I am the MLA who represents the Legislature, for this building too is in the Fort Rouge cons tituenc y. When my friend and col leag ue, the Mem ber for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), and I were in Otta wa some weeks back, Mem bers of Parliament told us that this Legislatur e was the finest in the countr y. I agree, Mr. Speaker.

Not only is the building itself architecturally sple ndid but so is the history and tradition of what has transpir ed within its walls. Manitoba has alwa ys been a linchpin of Confederat ion. The turmoil of 18 70 which led to the creation of Man itoba as a province exposed the raw nerves of our nationhood which are st ill with us today. The co-existence between English and French-speak ing Canadians, the right to educ ate childr en in 280 denominational schools, and the treatment of our Native people were and remain imposing challenges. I would like to add ress some issues raised in the Speech from the Throne.

In a general way, I can toss one compliment across the floor. This speech is better written then the dreadful examples offered by the former Government. My colleag ue, the Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek (Mr s. Yeo), made reference in her excellent speech to some university graduates who have trouble communicating effectively. The former NDP Government had problems with the English langua ge, at least when it came to composing Throne Speeches.

Thankful ly, this Government's first att empt is a little better. * (1 550) Speeches of this kind are known for their vagueness and their generalities, and this one is no different. We have no sense of priority. Is it to cut the deficit? Is it to reduce taxes, or is to maintain social programs? This Gover nment in tends to do every thing and presumably at the same time. Min isters have chosen to hide behind the upcoming Budget when asked pointed questions by Mem bers from this side of the House. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Man ness) had better be a magician, Mr.

Speaker, because the expectat ions raised in the Throne Speech will not be forgotten by people, who are cynical of politicians dragging rabbits from a hat. But more specifically, the Government has promised to make Crown corporations more accountable. lt has decided to order Crown corporations, such as the Manitoba Public Insu rance Corpor ation, to seek approval for rate increases from the Pu blic Utilities Board. Now that is a good thing, Mr. Speaker, but we do not yet know who has the final say. Is it the PUB or is it the Government?

Since my Leader assigned to me the responsibility for MP IC in our caucus, not a single day has gone by without a letter or a phone call complaining about M PlC. lt is not the rate structure alone that is irking the publi c, tho

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-9
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 9.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	dfdbc3e8b7121f1f7548dc41855ae7aeb305848a

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).