Volume XL Friday 'I • . Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Nw*r 2fr. 27kch 1987

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Oral Questions MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard). Mr. Speaker, I recognize that the bon. gentl,eman is a well meaning gentleman, a gracious gentleman. Bnd on numerous occasions, Mr. Speaker, he has made this statement that before the legislation on the Workers' Compensation Board could be proclaimed and become law a settlement had to be made. Let me quote to him, so he understands where I am coming from, Mr.

Speaker, a statement that he made in Hansard: 'There was a proposal and a settlement made before the Board was put in place' . Let me also quote to him from the legislation which says, 'On ·the commencement of this

section the Term of. Office of the three commissioners in office immediately before the commencement of this

section expires.' In other words, as soon as the legislation was proclaimed their term of office would expire. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want the bon. gentleman to stand now and correct in this House the misleading information that he has given to us. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. L1061 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . ., . MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing to correct. I will elucidate it once more for the bon. gentleman. I was very cautious, Mr.

Speaker, in ensuring that if there was ar.ybody whose term of office which would expire with the proclamation of that legislation, we were careful they had been given termination notice prior to the proclamation of the act. An offer was made to the people in question, Mr. Speaker, in May 1986. When I say 'an offer' it was a proposal. We do not like to be dogmatic, and I am sure that if we were dogmatic and were not fair to people, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentlemen opposite would be the first ones to attack us and to criticize us. In this particular case we wanted fairness.

We made what we considered to be a fair proposal. And it took from May until January of this year talking, negotiating if you will - to try to do what we thought was the fair and honourable thing. Now we have a responsibility, too, Mr. Speaker, not to be overly generous with funds belonging to the employers of this Province, and that is who is paying the shot. So we had to be careful. And the same offer, the same proposal, Mr. Speaker, that was made in May, 1986, was reiterated to the people in question -no improvements, but still what we considered fair and generous. Now, Mr.

Speaker, with that offer I have stated that as far as I am concerned, since that was a final proposal, that to me represented settlement, and I have nothing to correct on that, Mr. Speaker. From where I stand that settles the issue. No. 20 . R1061

Now if the gentlemen in question are still not satisfied, I guess they have recourse, and one has embarked upon that. Whether it proceeds I do not know, Mr. Speaker, but the only way that will change _ is if it is changed by the courts , Hr . Speaker. So, still standing in my place this morning, I say as far as I am concerned the issue is settled. Now that is all I can say, Mr. ·Speaker. I cannot be clearer than that. Now one more thing, Mr. Speaker, is that before the proclamation date, again to be fair, notwithstanding that that proposal had been made, a letter was written.

We have legislation which we build and bring into being, Mr. Speaker, and if we are telling somebody else that they must give a notice, must comply with laws, then we like to do it too. So in addition to the offer, Mr. Speaker, I have these people written notice that with the proclamation of the act on 16 February l their jobs would no longer exist. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Spe~ker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. MR. TULK: the hon. the Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman can stand in his place and say what he likes. I want to be very clear to him, Mr. Speaker, and very fair to him.

The hon. gentleman, after what he just said now, could have proclaimed the act last June because their term of office, as he . sai.d, expired. Let me read a statement to him that he made in this Legislature: 'There was a proposal and a settlement Ll062 March 27, 1987 Vol XL ., made before the board was put in place. ' Now, Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon. gentleman is this: Is it correct to say that there have been no settlements with two of the individuals concerned in spite of what the minister said in this statement in Hansard, that a settlement was made before the board was put in place?

I am once again going to give the hon. gentleman a chance to stand in his place and tell us that indeed that this is a misleading piece of information. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Labour. HR. BLANCHARD: No, Mr. Speaker. Once again, I will be very clear there is no misleading information. Now, Mr. Speaker, we all wanted to bring that piece of legislation into effect. There was a proclamation date in the particular piece of legislation, so it just did not automatically come into effect on Royal assent.

If I were to adopt the process that the hon. gentleman is talking about, if I do not regard that as settled, H. is out of my hands. Whatever else happens to it has to come from some higher authority or court or some such authority. So I have to consider that it is settled because it is our f ina! proposal, Mr. Speaker. Now if I did not consider that as settled we would have perpetual negotiations; I would be still talking, still having meetings, Hr. Speaker. So as far as i am concerned it was settled; there was a finality to that proposal. HR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . No. 20 R1062

the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have given the minister the opportunity to clarify this situation and his incorrect statements. Now there is no doubt what he has said to the public of this Province, there is is no doubt what he has said in Hansard, there is no doubt what he is saying again this morning, so Let me ask the minister was he misleading the House, deliberately misleadit?-g the House, or is this just another example of the disappointing performance of the White Knight of Labour who was supposed to come into this Legislature last year?

And will he now do the hon. thing, since it is obvious here that he has misled this Legislature and misled the public, and tender·his resignation to the Premier? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman last night, in a newscast I think, attempted to mislead the people of the Province. Mr. Speaker, perhaps there should be a point of privilege on this, and I am going to examine very carefully what he said. But he is attempting to tell the people of the Province, Mr. Speaker, that we are covering up. There is nothing to cover up, Mr. Speaker.

I have simply done what is clear in The Freedom of Information Act. I am not dragging the names of a couple of people out into public arid talking about them. MR. DINN: That is what. they would like. MR. BLANCHARD: Now that is what this hon. Ll063 March 27, 1987· Vol XL I gentleman wants to do. MR. YOUNG: He is good at that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, we have done what we think is fair, and I have nothing to apologize for, nothing to clarify, and I am clear on it. I am happy with what has been done, Mr. Speaker. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, it is regrettable that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) is not here because I have never asked such a serious question since I have been elected. This might be the equivalent to closing down the mines in St. Lawrence or Bell Island, and it is the federal government's stand of banning foreign vessels from catching shrimp in Canadian waters.

The Labrador Shrimp Company and Torngat Co-op have shrimp licences, but they cannot afford to buy the boats themselves because they have only been in operation six months, so they have what is called royal charters. They have Canadians on those boats,.Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 20 Rl063

·~ Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: And to the point, Mr. Speaker, they have Canadians on these Danish boats which catch the shrimp and sell it in Europe, but now they are doing away with this idea of having these foreign boats used to catch Canadian shrimp.

The question I want to ask the Minister of Finance in the absence of the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries, is will he make sure, in the strongest possible terms, to communicate with his officials in Ottawa that this is totally unacceptable to the people of Labrador and Newfoundland, and that if it is continued and proceeded with then there will be layoffs, and loss of a couple of hundred jobs or more on Coastal Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, as the han. member says the Minister of Fisheries is not in his place this morning.

I am not sure if he will be in before the end of Question Period but he does have an urgent bit of business he had to do this morning. I can assure the bon. member that this is a matter of great concern to us. I am not sure that it is fixed policy in Ottawa yet. I know that there have been reports and indications about this, but I am not sure that it is absolutely fixed policy in Ottawa and, even if it is, we are going to make -the strongest representations possible to have understood, without a shadow of doubt, the particular circumstances that exist on the Coast of Labrador with regard to the shrimp licenses.

They are not just ther~ for the shrimp fishery Ll064 March 27", 1987 Vol XL ., itself, but are there as a catalyst, shall we say, for the fishery up and down the whole coast. They are just one part of a total mechanism to put in place a fishery system along the whole coast, so this is a matter that is of great concern to us. If there have to be some changes made in the shrimp license system~ the other part of the equation has also got to be taken care of so that there is no gap or hole left there and the whole system collapse. This is a matter that the bon.

Minister of Fisheries is on top of and is going to, I am sure, report to -the House progressively on as it unfolds. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. ·MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: I am glad that the Minister of Finance does understand part of it, because the money that is taken from the royalties subsidize the plants in Cartwright, L • Anse-au-Loup, Marys Harbour, as well as other ones in the district of the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). If the shrimp licences are done away with then those jobs are done away with.

We have seen the federal government do away with the $50 million Northern Corporation The question that I want to ask again is would Minister of Finance communicate to the Minister of Fisheries and the Premier about having a resolution passed by this House, and have the Minister of Fisheries do it up and pass it on to the federal -counterparts in Ottawa? Would he assure this House now that he will undertake to instruct the Premier No. 20 Rl064

and the Minister of Fisheries to bring in a resolution? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not see any problem with that particular approach. The only thing I would say is that there might be a better approach, so I do not think we should confine ourselves to one particular thing. I an assure the bon. member that there will be every possible undertaking made to make sure that there is no detrimental effect to the fisheries, either the shrimp fishery or general fishery, along the Labrador Coast because of any changes that are contemplated in Ottawa in this regard. MR.

HISCOCK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are campaigning to have these royal charters done away with. In view of the pressure coming from these three provinces, particularly Nova Scotia which has trawlers there, would it not be very, very important that this government reinforce what needs to be done? I would appreciate it if the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) would also assist in making it clear to Ottawa that Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia have lots of jobs in various ways,

whereas in Coastal Labrador, if these subsidies are done away with, then the jobs are done away with. Nova Scotia, Quebec and New Brunswick are putting pressure on Ottawa to do L1065 March 27, 1987 Vol XL ' ., ' ' away with the present system. With our relationship now with ottawa, and between Mr. Crosbie and Mr. Peckford, will the people of Labrador have to pay this piper? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: No, Mr. Speaker. I think it would be a wrong

interpretation to say that we are not taking this issue as seriously as . the other provinces. As a matter of fact, if anything, we are taking it more seriously, because we know that the impact in this Province of any change in that regard will be very heavy, and the impact on the other provinces will be very light. So we are much more concerned than they are. I am sure that Mr. Crosbie is too.

I can assure the bon. member that any temporary blips in the relationships between this government and the federal governme~t, which is the nature of Confederation anyway, and the Premier of this Province and our major representative in Ottawa - I mean, human nature being what it is, there are going ·to be blips here and there - will have nothing whatsoever to do with such a serious matter as the fishery along the Labrador Coast. MR.FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I would be quite happy to recognize the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. I did not see him when h~ stood up.

I feel that all bon. members are equal, but maybe the bon. the Leader of the Opposition is a little bit more equal. No. 20 R1065

MR. SIMMONS: I yield, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The ·the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr . S:>eaker. My question, Kr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Mines (Mr. Dinn). As the minister will know, the development of the Hope Brook gold mine's gold deposit is progressing. We are approaching the production stage. I want to ask the minister to what extent will the ore that is being mined at Hope Brook be refined at Hope Brook? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, it is hoped that when they get into full production that they will be exporting the gold in gold bar state. So it will be refined to its final stages. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Could the minister inform the House whether or not the refining process that the Hope Brook gold mine operators will use will require the construction of milling facilities at Hope Brook? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Housing. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. L1066 Karch 27, 1987 Vol XL . ( . MR.

FLIGHT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon . the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the minister, in his first answer, said, 'It is hoped.' I ask is the minister prepared to insist that the total and complete refining be done at Hope Brook so as . to make sure that the jobs associated with that gold mine operation at Hope Brook are not exported out of Newfoundland, and that every job associated with that operation, particularly the refining, stays at Hope Brook? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, the han. member need not worry about what goes on at Hope Brook. It is not going to be a situation like happened before in this Province. There might be a few ounces of . gold that will be processed outside the Province. As a matter of fact, there has been some already done. Mr. Speaker, they have done some sample runs on what is at Hope Brook, but we intend, Mr. Speaker, that after the leaching process we intend to mill what goes on at Hope Brook. The first few ounces of gold, especially in 1987, may not be done there because the whole processor and processing equipment will not be in place.

But it is our intention to have everything done at Hope Brook and shipped out in that state. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 20 Rl066·

The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), and it concerns, Mr. Speaker, the way in which Mark Noseworthy and his team have been treated by the Olympic Selection Committee, especially himself and his third. This has greatly affected every Newfoundlander, has hurt our pride, and the way we have been treated is nothing short of discrimination. There have been several Telexes forwarded to the hon. Otto Jelinek and to the Olympic Committee.

Would the minister report to this House if he has had any responses back to those Telexes? MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman is correct in that we, both the Premier and I, have Telexed both Mr. Mazinke, President-Elect of the Canadian Curling Association, and as well, of course, the han. Otto Jelinek, the federal Minister responsible for Sports Canada. As of now I have not had a response from Mr. Jelinek. I am not sure if over the last number of hours the Premier's Office has received responses.

But, of course, as a result of the original Telexes we thought that there was sort of a change in what would happen with the process and in essence we thought two . members of the Noseworthy Rink would be given an L1067 March 27, 1987·· Vol XL ·I opportunity for the Olympic trials. Since then we have learned that there will not be any member of the Noseworthy· Rink selected or given an opportunity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR. MATTHEWS: And, of course, the hon. member knows as well that in this House we passed an all-party resolution dealing with this issue.

And, of course, it does not seem to have any effect. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. EFFORD: _Mr. Speaker, one Telex was dated March 18, the others March 20 and the 24. Now that is a long time not to have received an answer, so obviously the Telex is not working. Probably they are taking the same attitude as the hon. Mr. Crosbie did when he called us no better than. Third World people.

I would ask does the minister not see that this is serious enough that possibly he himself and representatives of his department could personally go to Ottawa and make personal representation, on behalf of all Newfoundlanders, on behalf of the Mark Noseworthy curling team to see that they get an equal and fair treatment in the upcoming Olympic trials? MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, . Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: No. 20 R1067

Mr. Speaker, I do not know what would have more impact with the Canadian Curling Association and the federal minister then to have an all-party resolution passed in this House of Assembly and forwarded. I mean, fifty-two members of this Legislature have unanimously passed a resolution on the issue, it has been forwarded, and the Premier and I have Telexed both Mr. Mazinke and Mr. Jelinek. The day before yesterday I Telexed both gentleman again because I was dissatisfied that there was not a reversal of the decision. Mr.

Speaker, I think we find, as I said publicly a number of times, that what is happening is the politics of this country, its Central Canadian control, , is now overflo~ed into the sports fraternity and the sports world of Canada. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like · to address a question to the acting Government House Leader.

Is the minister aware that as a result of the unfortunate aircraft accident out of Toronto airport in which one individual died from hypothermia and water inhalation, there is a tremendous outcry for improved Search and Rescue facilities to be made available to that airport?

I wonder if the minister could indicate whether he or the government of this Province has any views when one considers that the distance of the closest Search and Rescue base is only eighty-seven nautical miles East of Toronto airport compared to the much greater distances that have Ll068 March 27~-1987 Vol XL ' to be travelled in this Province to get to the site of where marine emergencies usually occur? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the han. member brings up an extremely important point. We are a seafaring - I almost said country, but certainly a seafaring province.

I suppose there are many more people at risk of injury and loss of life on the waters from this Province in any one day of the year than probably anywhere else in Canada. We have therefore made representations many, many times to increase the Air/Sea Rescue and other means of preserving safety and life at sea, navigation aids and all that type of thing. Many, many times have we made representations about that. One of the startling things, Mr.

Speaker, because the funding for that sort of thing usua1ly comes out of the Department of Defence, is the small degree of funding that this Province gets from the Department of Defense.

Even though we are in the geographic position we are in, even with th ·e history we had during the Second World War and so on of all of the bases and all that sort of thing and the crucial role we played in that great conflict, even with all of that the per capita expenditure from the Department of Defence in this Province is, if my memory serves me, only one-tenth of what it is in the Maritimes and it- is only one third of a province like Saskatchewan.

So we made representations on this score and we made particular representations on the aspects of funding from the Department of Defense that would relate to safety at sea. No. 20 R1068

MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, the hon. member for Mount Scio Island. MR. BARRY: the Bell Will the minister bring it to the Premier's attention and consider making representation and relating it specifically to the concerns that have been raised with respect to Toronto airport? Will the minister refer to such references as 'the icy waters of Lake Ontario' and point out the temperatures that exist off this Coast at any time of the year in terms of water temperature?

Will the minister talk about the references to the one hour it took the Search and Rescue lilircraft to reach the Toronto site and talk about the number of hours it takes them to reach the scenes of emergencies here in this Province? In other words, will the minister and this administration stop talking about this problem and do something to get action out of the Government of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there is no way that one can disagree with the member's representations in this regard, because we have already done that many, many times.

Of c·ourse, we have had some results . The Ocean Ranger enquiry and other enquiries and other approaches have resulted in some improvement. But we are not satisfied by any means with the degree of improvement to date and we will continue, and are continuing, to make vigorous representation on that. Certainly Ll069 March 27, 1987 Vol XL' -~ any new information, such as this unfortunate accident in Ontario, we will use that, not to our best advantage, really, but to the advantage of our people at sea, and all who may be at sea. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER : The hon. the member for Gander. MR.

BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Once again the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) is not here for Question Period, so I am going to frame my question for the Minister of Finance. There is a well-founded and well-detailed rumor in educational circles, with school boards and teachers, that there is an $8 million cutback in educational spending in this coming year. .

Now my question is: Has the minister, or somebody in the Department of Education, been revealing budget information, or is he simply playing this silly game of trying to indicate that things are going to be bad, and when the budget comes down people will breath a sigh of relief because the cut is only $3 million or $4 million instead of $8 million? Which is it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this is a new dodge. I do not know if I have heard of that dodge before.

It is an interesting thought, but I can assure the hon. member that if there are any rumors about the budget they did not start with this government. We are very careful to maintain the secrecy of our budget preparations, not out of any sort of sense of drama but No. 20 Rl069

just because if they come out prematurely there can be unfortunate affects. I must say that the secrecy of our budgets has been extremely well maintained. This, I think, is a compliment to many people in the public service, because there are hundreds and hundreds of people involved in budget preparations. The whole Cabinet is involved in it, and so on and so forth. The fact that these rumors circulate is not related, I do not think, to any degree whatever, in true facts getting out. But you cannot stop people speculating and rumormongering. MR. BAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary,. the bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the minister that it has gone beyond the rumor stage. The Roman Catholic School Board in St. John's has been told to cut back, and they are claiming that they have a choice between cutting services and increasing class sizes in already overcrowded classrooms. I would like to ask the minister which choice would he make if he were the Roman Catholic School Board in St. John's?

Would he choose to increase already overcrowded classrooms or would he choose to seriously cut back on the services they are offering their people? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the School Board in governed by the Roman Catholic st. John's is Roman Catholic Ll070 March 27, 1987 ·Vol XL * , # I DEC - I may not have the term exactly right - and I am sure that they gauge the distribution of our funds not only on the basis of what they get from government but their priorities in this area and that area and so on and so forth.

So what they told their board may have nothing whatever to do with any speculation - and it can only be speculation - they have as to what they are going to get out of the budget. It may relate to the priori ties . they see in the . year ahead. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Twomey) a questipn. He may want to take notes. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health if he has received any representation from the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) and the member from Placentia (Mr.

Patterson), two members of this Legislature, to have constituents in their districts who have trusted to and are still trusting to the health services facilities at Come By Chance? Has he received any representation from these gentlemen? I ask the Minister of Health that question. I also ask the Minister of Health, to make it one question, Mr. Speaker, has he received representation from Captain Morrissey Johnson, in whose district the medical facility is located and who has constituents there, obviously, and from the bon. John Crosbie whose constituents use that facility, and from Mr.

Joe Price, who also No. 20 Rl070

has constituents who use that fac ility? Has the Minister of Hea lth received representation from any of these five ind ividuals, two from the Leg islature, three from the House of Commons, yes or no? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Health . DR. TWOMEY: In my duty in this office I receive many requests . I receive them from all the members of the House on all sides. I receive them from the general public, from professional groups, and I feel that these communications are sacrosanct. If they wish to make it public that is their right, that is their privilege. Thank you . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. 'SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The .bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to return to the Minister of Labour just for a moment because there were a number of questions, I say to him, which were unanswered and we will get back with another series later. But I want to ask -him one particular so he can rest easy for the weekend. Now, Mr.

Speaker, he has given an undertaking in this House that there has been no cover-up, and I take the minister at his word, and I say to him, and this is the point of my question, that what _ he ought to be saying is Ll071 March 27, 1987 Vol XL ·I that insofar as he knows there is no cover-up. I would say to him that the government has made a decision - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I ask will the Minister confirm that the real truth here is that the government has made a decision that does not sit very well with the Workers' Compensation Board, and that is what all the row is about and that is why the minister has been obliged to do this Tory trot in the House, two steps forward, one step backward, in the hope of evading the issue? Will he confirm that the real problem is a real controversy going on between the government decision and the Workers' Compensation Board's refusal to accept that decision? MR. TULK: Right on. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Labour. MR.

BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I do not need the Johnny-Come-Lately Leader of the Opposition to tell me what I ought to be saying. SOME HON. MEMBERS:· Hear, hear! MR. BLANCHARD: Luckily, Mr. Speaker, over here we know what we are saying. I told the bon. gentleman over there this morning exactly what has been done and the short answer to his question, Mr. Speaker, is, no, there is absolutely no conflict No. 20 Rl071

with the Workers' Compensation. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like, at this stage, to welcome to the gallery twelve students from Jacques Fontaine and twenty-four exchange students here with Open House Canada from Rock Glen, . Saskatchewan, with their teachers, Calvin Smith, Shirley Banfield, Len Reeves, and Cathy Prefontaine. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome to the Visitor's Gallery seventy-five Grade XI students from Ascension Collegiate in Bay Roberts with their teachers, Mr. Neil and Mr. Taylor.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for Port ·de Grave. MR. EFFORD: It is a well-known fact, Mr. Speaker, that Question Period gives us an opportunity, as an Opposition Party, to question the ministers about the facts on what is important to the people of this Province, and it is our duty to do that. Today, Mr. Speaker, the question I asked in Question Period was very important to all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. It is something that should not be taken lightly. L1072 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . ., .. Mr.

Speaker, during Question Period I asked the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews) a question. I asked, very simply, the question, 'Would he make personal representation, due to the fact he had not received any answers in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker. • My point, Mr. Speaker, is that the minister did not answer the question. When we have an opportunity to ask a question, we need an answer, and the people of this Province want answers to questions. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR.

SIMMS: The hon. member is trying to portray, for his constituents, his knowledge of parliamentary procedure . He should also be aware that the minister did answer the question. Whether he answered the question satisfactorily or not is another question. The hon. member has a process he can follow to debate that on the Late Show Thursdays. But most importantly, the rules of Beauchesne state. very clearly that a minister may, in fact, not answer the question if he does not wish. So that is as clear as a bell, Sir. obviously, ·Mr. Speaker, of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point To that point of order, there is no point of order. As the minister of Forest Resources and Lands said, a minister does not have to answer a question. I am No. 20 R1072

not saying that he did not in this particular case, but he does not have to answer one if he does not wish to. So, there is no point of order. Orders of the Day DR. COLLINS: Motion 2, Mr. Speaker. On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, when I adjourned the debate yesterday afternoon at 5:30, I think I used up two minutes. I think I have about eight minutes left in this round.

When I was speaking yesterday we were talking about roads, particularly the bad condition of roads in the Bellevue-Thornlea area. That is what occupied most of the afternoon actually. Mr. Chairman, I just asked the Minister of Health a question in Question Period about what representation he has received from five han. gentlemen regarding the upgrading of the medical facilities at Come By Chance, which used to be a Cottage L1073 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . , Hospital but was shut down.

In addition to the five gentlemen that I mentioned, two in this Legislature and three in Ottawa, all of whom have constituents who have used and are still using that medical facility at Come By Chance, I want to ask the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) if perhaps he would take some time in this debate to answer my question in more detail than he answered it just now. Perhaps he would like to spend five or ten minutes actually talking about the facility at Come By Chance. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, _the hon. the member for Bonavista South. MR.

MORGAN: I know it is Friday morning and people my be bored with the House of Assembly but, with all due respect, we do not have a quorum in the House. MR. EFFORD: With thirty-five members government benches, there be a quorum. MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the members. Quorum MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! on the should The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was just talking about the medical facility at Come By Chance No. 20 R1073

and asking the Minister of Health a couple of questions so that he could stand and answer them before the morning is finished. In addition to representation from the - five gentlemen whom I mentioned earlier, I am also wondering, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister of Health also received representation from the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren)? The . member for Torngat Mountains is on record now, Mr. Chairman, as being very concerned ~d actively working for constituents in the district of Bellevue, in addition, of course, to his own district of Torngat Mountains.

He has set a precedent in his involvement over the roads in Thornlea and Bellevue, a precedent, I hope, Mr. Chairman, which will continue and expand to all parts of the Bellevue district. In that regard, I want to suggest to the member for · Torngat Mountains that he should involve himself, especially since the member for Torngat Mountains home town is Chance Cove. His parents live there and they have used the medical facility at Come By Chance for the last seventy years, I suppose.

They miss the downgraded facilities and would like to see them upgraded, and not only the member for Torngat Mountains parents but, of course, all other people who live in Chance Cove and who have to use and are continuing to use the facility at Come By Chance. The member for Torngat Mountains is also concerned about the medical facility at Come By Chance, I would assume, because the member for Torngat Mountains his wife comes from Little Harbour and he has inlaws who live in Little Harbour.

The member Ll074 Karch 27, 1987 Vol XL ' ( I himself, in addition, to having his home town in Chance Cove, also has a Summer home in Little Harbour, which he obtained compliments of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing when a home was repossessed and the member for Torngat was lucky enough to get it, of cou':"se, and deservedly so. He has a Summer home there and that is another reason why the member for Torngat Mountains should be concerned about the medical facilities at Come By Chance. John Crosbie's constituents in Southern Harbour and the member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson), who is now looking in the doorway, his constituents in Southern Harbour use that medical facility. MR. PATTERSON: I can look after my own constituents and if you want to run against me- (inaudible.) MR. CALLAN: It is the member for Torngat Mountains · who has been taking about running against you for years. I have no interest in it. I am quite happy in the Bellevue district. I am asking the Kini"ster of Health what representation he has received from the member tor Torngat Mountains as well.

I would be interested in finding out since he is so interested in the people in Thornlea and Bellevue and their roads. Obviously he should be very concerned about the medical facilities at Come By Chance since his parents in Chance Cove and his brothers ami sisters who live in Chance Cove and everybody who lives in Chance Cove. · Of course, the member for Torngat Mountain's own inlaws live in Southern Harbour and, of course, all of the friends he has No. 20 R1074

made as he goes out there on weekends, Sununers and holidays generally. I hope the member for Torngat Mountains is making representation on their behalf. What I will be doing as soon as I get a chance this morning or this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, is writing a letter to the people associated with the health services committee in Come By Chance -Arnold's Cove. I.will be writing a letter to the Chairman of that committee telling him that Bellevue district is indeed privileged.

Not only does the district of Bellevue have me as their Opposition member who has been fighting an ongoing battle to try and upgrade their medical facilities there but now, in addition to that, they have a member on the government benches, the member from Torngat Mountains, who has taken on the role of being a fighter for the people in the district of Bellevue. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I will be contacting the chairman asking him to ask the member for Torngat Mountains to use his very valuable services as a lobbiest in the backbenches of the government to lobby with the Minister of Health (Dr.

Twomey), to lobby with the Premier, to lobby with anybody in the front benches on the government · side who, of course, are in the Cabinet and obviously can reverse the decision that was taken at Come By Chance a year or so ago. Mr. Chairman, I'want to finish on that. Now, here is what I want to do in my next few minute~, Mr. Chairman. When the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) yesterday got up in a ten minute debate with me, he talked about ministers being responsible and being fair.

He talked about himself as an example and the L1075 March 27, 1987 Vol XL • I projects that he announced last week. I concur, Mr. Chairman, I concur. As a matter of fact, if I were to point out the Cabinet ministers on the government benches who are undemocratic and who are unfair in their treatment of Tory districts as compared with Opposition districts, Liberal or NDP, there are three ministers in particular, Mr. Chairman, that I would have to point to. The Minister of Health (Dr.

Twomey) has demonstrated his unfairness in the treatment of cottage hospitals on the Burin Peninsula as compared with Come By Chance, as an example. He has demonstrated his unfairness in his dealings with a committee out there. In addition to the Minister of Health, who has been acting unfair and undemocraticly, in my opinion -and I have facts to prove it - in addition, there is the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). The Minister of Transportation is on record as being an unfair minister. He treats Tory districts favourably and, of course, makes the Liberal districts suffer.

He is on record as saying that on the public airways and he has demonstrated that. The third minister that I would have to point out as being very unfair and very undemocratic is the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle). Now, Mr. Chairman, I must say that there are ministers on the government benches who are fair and I point to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power). Let me give an example. Back in January of this year, Mr. Chairman, the No. 20 R1075

Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies said we did not throw our money in with the federal money last Fall for job creation. We kept ours to ourselves. We have $3 million and what are we going to do with it? We are going to give $50, 000 to each member, Liberal , Tory, NDP, it did not matter to the Minister of Career Development. He said to me in the district of Bellevue, 'You have $50,000, · you decide where it goes. ' Mr. Chairman, I decided where it went. I must say this. The Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies was very fair because, in addition to that $50,000, Mr.

Chairman, I must tell you and I hope the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies does not get in trouble with his colleagues over this but I must tell you, I had a request from . Thornlea about three weeks ago. The sponsors of a project there applied for $80, 000 and they only $30,000 for their project.

So the sponsor in Thornlea said to me, 'Is there any more of that provincial money left that you fellows were more or less ,given back in January? ' I said, 'I do not think so, I have used my $50,000 but I will try.' So I wrote the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies a letter about three weeks ago and I said to the minister, 'The sponsors of a project in Thornlea appli~d for $80,000. They only got $30,000, so they are under pressure.

They do not have any money for materials.' So I requested $2,500 as - top up money to be used to buy materials for that project in Thornlea and, lo and behold, last week, Mr. Chairman, I had a response back from the minister's department. In addition to the $50,000 that I was given in January, I received Ll076 March 27, 1987 Vol XL ·I another $2,500 which went to top up a federal make-work programme in the Town of Thornlea. I think that is $52,500 total. If you want to add it up, $50,000 and $2,500, that is $52,500 . So there are good ministers.

There are democratic and there are fair ministers on .the government benches, Mr. Chairman. I want to end off my few remarks this morning by pointing that out. I conclude by saying once more that the district of Bellevue is very fortunate indeed. Not only does the district of Bellevue have me as their Opposition member who fights battles for them, like the one in Thornlea to obtain $2,500 from Career Development, but also, Mr. Chairman, they have the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), who has set a precedent, he has involved himself in promising road work for Bellevue and Thornlea. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Greening): The bon. the member's time is up . MR. CALLAN: In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, the member for Torngat Mountains now has no other choice, he has to involve himself with the people in Markland in their efforts to get pavement and in Hillview and Hodge's Cove and in the health services facilities at Come By Chance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. finished. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. TWOMEY: Mr. ·Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 20 I am Rl076

The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I do not know how long ago some very wise and poetic men tried to analyze the perceptions of all people and he wrote a poem, and this is part of it, "Two men looked out through iron bars/One saw mud and one saw stars". It could appear from what the hon. member has just spoken that we do have different points of view.

I am very proud, as a member of this House, and as a member of the medical profession, and as a citizen of this Province, that I can speak with confidence and say we have an excellent· health care ·system in this Province. Now when we compare the figures of what we have done and achieved over the number of years since Confederation, I feel it is a remarkable miracle that we have been able to develop our health care services. The gross dedication of money last year for health care services was $601 million. We devote the highest percentage of our Gross Provincial Product to the health care system.

Every day in the health care system we spend $1. 6 million to maintain our health services. That amounts to over $1,000 for every individual in this Province -man, woman and child. We have a medical school in this Province, and I believe ·that at the moment that over one-third of the physicians in this Province in active practice, and I believe that there are many more to come, their presumed careers are in post-graduate studies in the different sub-specialties of L1077 March 27, 1987 Vol XL I medicine. I think there have been some other remarkable achievement during my lifetime.

These remarkable achievements have been what has happened to the control of pulmonary tuberculosis, the incidents and the deaths. Last year there was no death from pulmonary tuberculosis in this Province. We have also been very fortunate in our public health system, which was developed many years ago by two or three or more very distinguished people in this Province. One was the bon. Dr. Jim McGrath, who was a member of this Legislature and also served as Minister of Health. There were many others. Dr.

Peters was well known for all the -work and leadership and direction that he had .given the people and the profession in the diagnosis and treatment of pulmonary tuberculosis. As well as that, during that period of time, the public health services were developed to an unusual degree of efficiency. And one must realize that we have reduced the incident of contagious diseases in infants to a very low rate. We now have a higher compliance in this Province of people having their children immunized against these various infectious diseases. I know the figure is over 95 per cent of all our children have been immunized.

Of the other 5 per cent, there might be some degree of non-compliance but there also might be certain medical reasons why they have not been vaccinated. I could go on and on, because each and every year the health services in this Province are progressing step by step in a very meaningful way. I was delighted to read a No. 20 R1077

few months ago, as I read The Canadian Journal on Hospital Accreditation, that we have 95 per cent of our acute care beds accredited in this Province. You might ask where we stand in the national spectrum. I believe we are third. I had also an interest in what was happening to our chronic care institutions. There were some errors, and I would be prepared to produce their book and statistics, and when these are corrected I think we stand number one in Canada. I would be prepared to produce this in the House: We stand number one in Canada on having our chronic care beds in institutions accredited.

I think that these are remarkable achievements. If you look at the medical manpower studies, over the years we have increased these numbers, not lessened them as has been said, and a factual head count has shown that we have more specialists in the Province now than we ever had i.n our history. We have more nurses employed in the Province than we ever had in our history. There are some other very relevant factors, but they are not updated. During the last few years we have increased the number of our chronic care beds in institutions by 495 - I think that is the correct figure.

That means that we require about 205 more to comply with the recommendation of The Royal Commission on Health. This is ongoing, and I feel that we will reach it before the 1990s, which was the sign post that was recommended by the commissioners when they handled their inquiry. There had been other achievements, I think, Ll078 March 27, 1987 ·I remarkable during the Vol XL past few years. Last year we had an agreement with Dalhousie University to admit occupational therapists and physiotherapists into their schools. For the first two years they agreed to enroll ten and thereafter twelve.

Clarenville Hospital has been opened, it is ongoing, and it is active. The Salt Pond Hospital is almost complete. We have committed ourselves to building chronic care beds for Agnes Pratt, and Golden Height Manor and Botwood. We have installed a computer as a treatment planner for the Newfoundland Branch of The Canadian Cancer Society. We have funded nuclear medicine operation in the James Paton Hospital, and more recently we have established an excellent ophthalmic service there. We have in the past year opened a . very high risk Prenatal Unit in the Grace Hospital.

We have improved our air ambulance services, and we have done many other things that are commendable in the health care field. Occasionally it is asked of me why we do this and why we do that. In this office there is always a decision to be made. Sometimes they have written about it as the dilemma of decision making. It has to be done. We have to make judgements that might not please certain people, certain groups. When you talk about the Come By Chance hospital, I will ask you to think very carefully and say is there any comparable area of the Province. As you get close to St.

John's you will find that Trepassey is ·over 100 miles from any hospital, any diagnostic clinic, or anything else. Or if we look at Hermitage, I think you will realize they are a distance No. 20 R1078

from Grand Falls or from Harbour Breton. When we think of Holyrood, I think it is further away than Come By Chance is from any hospital. When you think · of Marysvale, I believe the journey is much longer to any primary care institution. When you talk of Lewisporte, you will find that you are further away ~rom a hospital, after five o'clock in the afternoon, than you are in the Come By Chance area. I think you can talk about Deer Lake. I believe the journey from Deer Lake, in a bus, takes about fifty minutes to travel to Corner Brook. I think you will agree that distance plays a very important

part in deciding. The other day in the House you spoke about numbers, and you can talk about numbers how you want. You know what Mark Twain said about numbers, "Statistics, statistics," and you know the rest. But you want to analyze and you want to use figures. The other day you used in the House, if I am correct in my memory, the number 800 patients. MR. CALLAN: Eight ~undred and seven. DR. TWOMEY: Eight hundred and seven. There are two doctors in the clinic. So it is four hundred and, let us say, four. If you divide it into a five day week that is twenty patients a day each. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han.

Minister's time is up. . SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. CALLAN: Ll079 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . , . ' Mr. Chairman, by leave if he is also going to tell us about Grand Bank and St. Lawrence and give us the figures for those two. MR. SPEAKER: By leave. The han. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: If you divide it by a five-day week you will find it is about twenty patients each. I think if you compare that with other large clinics you will find there is quite a difference.

When you realize the number of support personnel in the hospital, you find that if you were in private practice, certainly one physician could not afford to practice in an area that only had a clinic number of patients of 808. If you divide it into a seven-day week, you will find that the number comes down quite a lot. There is very little work, by comparison, to be · .done. These are the decisions we have to make. As well as that, we have an excellent highway, as good as we have anywhere in the Province.

When you compare it with all the other areas of the Province, I think that accessibility to a modern hospital in Clarenville gives it many advantages that other parts of our Province have not got. Of course, if you go into Labrador I doubt if you can make a comparison. I could go on and talk about it, but I think I have given the bare facts. The Premier has already spoken on the subject matter. I feel there is nothing else to add at this time. Thank you . MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman. No. · 20 Rl079

MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, a true politician. He skated all around the issue and, of course, did not face up to the issue, a true politician. Kr. Chairman, the Minister of Health started off by quoting a poem. Last year I attended a graduation banquet exercise and on the wall was written, Mr. Chairman, "Only as high as you reach can you grow/Only as far as you seek can you go/Only as deep as you look can you see/Only as much as you dream can you be." Mr.

Chairman, the people in the Come By Chance general area, and that takes in Chance Cove and Southern Harbour and Arnold's Cove, and it takes in Grand Le Pierre, and it takes in Konkstown, and it takes in Swift Current, and it takes in Sunnyside, and it takes in 7,000 people in that area who have, and are still using, the facilities at Come By Chance, they have a dream, Kr. Chairman. As Martin Luther King said, 'They have a dream'. Their dream is not an impossible dream. It is not an unreasonable dream. All they want, Mr. Chairman, is the facilities at their clinic upgraded to at least sixteen hours a day.

A twenty-four hour clinic, such as they have at Whitbourne, wouid be ideal. The Minister of Mines (Mr. Dinn) knows in all negotiations you ask for the whole loaf but, if you end up getting half the loaf, you probably got what you expected in the first place. I asked the Minister of Health and this administration to return to Come By Chance the cottage hospital status that the facility has L1080 Karch 27, 1987 Vol XL . , enjoyed for fifty years. They are not asking for something new. They are asking to maintain something that they have had for fifty years.

I will say to the Minister of Health that only on one ground alone can he justify keeping the cottage hospitals at Grand Bank and St . Lawrence open, nostalgia. out the window with it! There is nostalgia connected with Come By Chance too and that great Liberal democrat, that great Liberal President, President Roosevelt of the United States who gave the people of St. Lawrence a hospital for their acts of bravery, that was a great gesture by a great Liberal.

We have seen great gestures done in this country and in the United States by great Liberals, who gave us the old age pension and family allowance and Medicare and all of the other great Liberal ideals that have kept the Liberal Party in power in this courttry and in this Province for years ·and years. But, Mr. Chairman, there is only one reason, only one justification that the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) can give and that is to maintain the fifty or sixty jobs at these two cottage hospitals. Nothing else makes any sense.

The thousand fishermen working in the fish plants in Grand Bank, I can match that figure and do better with it with the figures in the Corne By Chance area. There is in excess of 250 people on site at the refinery. AN HON. MEMBER: Two hundred and sixty-five. MR. CALLAN: Two hundred and sixty-five, I said in excess of 250. The figures that I gave the Minister of Health the other day are conservative. I No. 20 R1080

hate to use that word. They are conservative. The figure that I used for the National Sea Plant at Arnold's Cove was 350; at Come By Chance I used 250. The figures at National Sea in Arnold's Cove reflect a twelve month a year plant, a year round plant. It is closer to 400, but I was conservative. I used 350, and all of these figures added together, the conservative ones added up to more than 1,000 so that disspelled the argument regarding Grand Bank and the cottage hospital. As for the nostalgia at St. Lawrence, they have the same nostalgia at Sunnyside and Come By Chance.

I can tell the Premier, if he was here, I will tell the Minister of Health, that there are people living today in Sunnyside and Come By Chance who laid the foundation for that cottage hospital fifty · years ago. They used picks and shovels and they did it free labour. Mr. Chairman, it is interesting, a lot of these people had their pictures taken with the Premier during the '81 Bellevue by-election because the Premier travelled around and wherever you get an old couple - he had a gen tleman there, I guess it was Frank, I am not sure who it was, with an instamatic camera and here is your picture.

I guess they were happy at the time because the Premier, in addition to having his picture taken with these senior citizens, was saying to them at the same time, 'Your hospital will never close as long as I am Premier. ' He was saying that to them. Mr. Chairman, -I can tell you that these pictures with the Premier have long since been ripped to shreds, just as the dream of the people in Come By Chance has been L1081 March 27, 1987 Vol XL ripped to shreds, their dream to maintain a medical facility. Mr. Chairman, if the Premier was here, I would ask him some questions.

What diabolical nonsense we have coming from some members opposite. The Premier, Mr. Chairman, when he announced - the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) just mentioned the refinery - the sale of the refinery at the Hotel Newfoundland, he started off his opening statement with, 'They said it could not be done. They said the refinery would never work.' Now, who was it that said it, Mr. Chairman? The Premier said it many times. The hon. John Crosbie said it many times. The member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) ·said it was scraped, it should never have been built.

The Minister of Finance said it would never work, and it should be sold. The only people, Mr. Chairman, who said that it could not be done, that it would never work, were the Premier and his colleagues. Nobody on this side said it, Mr. Chairman. What happened two months ago when the refinery was reactivated? It vindicated J.R. Smallwood. He was fifteen years ahead of this Tory crowd. He had put a refinery out there fifteen years ago. The Premier tried to take credit. He talked ~bout blowing your mind. It fell into the Premier's lap, Mr. Chairman. The Premier thought he was going to get a high out of that.

He thought he was going to get a lot of credit, but he did not get any credit. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: You are gone . ·He is gone. He No. 20 R1081

only got in here accidentally anyway. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, p·lease! The hon. member's time is up. MR. CALLAN: I wish it was not, Mr. Chairman. I could go on for another while lambasting this hon. crowd. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you; Mr. Chairman. Earlier, when the hon. member for Bellevue was speaking, I must say I was very grateful for the comments that he did make. In fact, I understand that he said he was going to be sending out letters to his district, to his people, and telling them to get in contact with me. MR. TULK: Mr.

Chairman, a quorum call. MR.. CHAIRMAN: Call in the members. Quorum MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! There is a quorum present. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR.. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. L1082 March 27, 1987 Vol XL 'I ' I must compliment the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). If the hon. member is saying, as he said earlier in his

preamble, that he cannot do anything in the district of Bellevue and he is asking the people out there to call me, I should remind the hon . member that I have my own district to look after . I cannot help it if the hon. member is ineffective. He spoke about the Come By Chance Hospital, Mr. Chairman. I believe I can say more about the Come By Chance Hospital than the hon. member can, Mr. Chairman, because in 1948 I was a patient tehre . MR. TULK: Too bad they did not keep you. MR.. WARREN: I would say to the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) that he is acting as stupid as he looks. MR.

TULK: If we went by looks, you would not even be on your feet. MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to continue in silence if possible. In 1948, Mr. Chairman, I was a patient at the hospital in Come By Chance. At that time, it took a day and a half to get from Chance Cove to Come By Chance. Now, to get to the new hospital at ·clarenville from the furthest community would take thirty-five minutes. The hon. gentlemen is concerned about the people be_tween Chance Cove and Sunnyside. MR. TULK: You need to go to the hospital. MR. FLIGHT: And we need a sample. MR. WARREN: . No. 20 R1082

Mr. Chairman, if the two bon. gentlemen over there want to act the fool so be it, let them act the fool. They are two plain fools. They are despicable. Mr. Chairman, I would say to the two bon. gentlemen that they should be concerned. 'Local Liberal Association supports Barry. ' Mr. Chairman, let me just tell bon. gentlemen and the Opposition House Leader that two or three years ago he was one of the gentlemen who helped put the knife into Mr. Neary. AN HON. MEMBER: Who? MR. WARREN: The bon. Opposiiton House Leader. Now, all of a sudden, he puts the knife into the member for Messiah. MR.

TULK: The member for where, Messiah? A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point .of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: For the hon. gentleman's information, the member who sits in that seat and who used to sit in this one, his district is Mount Scio -Bell Island, it is not Messiah. MR. MATTHEWS: He does not sit there any more. You took care of that. MR. TOBIN: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the bon. the member for Burin -Placentia L1083 March 27, 1987 Vol XL •, • I West. MR.

TOBIN: The member for Torngat Mountains quite clearly said the district that the member is from. Because of the yapping and the ignorance of the two members opposite, they could not hear what the member was saying. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that you ask these two members to either sit down and stay quiet or leave the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. The bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: I said Messiah, Mr. ·Chairman, because the member for Mount Scio is the only Messiah the Liberal party had. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: That was why you crossed the House, was it? MR.

WARREN: Exactly, Mr. Chairman. I should say to the bon. gentleman, who called me on the telephone asking me to come back? MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: The bon. gentleman is right. There was an offer made. The only problem was the bon. gentleman wanted what he thought he was worth and we were only willing to pay him what he was worth. No. 20 Rl083

MR. FLIGHT: And there is a big difference. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I would say to han. gentlemen opposite that if I had accepted only half that was offered in the conversation I had with that gentleman right there, and everyone in this House knows what my annual salary is, I would have no problem today buying shares in FPI. I should also tell the han. gentleman that I left the sinking ship because the knives were too great. MR. TULK: Rats usually do. MR. YOUNG: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR.

SPEAKER: A point Minister Services. of order, the han. the of Public Works · and MR. YOUNG: Mr. Chairman, han. member another han. I do not think any should refer to member of the House I think it is and should be as a rat. unparliamentary withdrawn. MR. TULK: To that point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the han . the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Let it be noted that Hansard will show that there was no reference made in my statement to any member Ll084 March 27, 1987 Vol XL • , I t in this Legislature. the statement that leave a sinking ship. MR. YOUNG: Be a man and withdraw. MR.

TULK: Do not be so foolish. MR. CHAIRMAN: I just made rats usually The hon. member for Fogo (Hr . Tulk) is correct. The bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) rats, buddy. . MR. TULK: I do. I look at them every day across the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would ask the han. member for Fogo to withdraw that. MR. TULK: Withdraw what? MR. CHAIRMAN: He said 'I look at rats across the House.' MR. TULK: But did I say where they were? MR. YOUNG: ~es, you did. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, if you want me to withdraw it, sure, I will withdraw it . SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: No. 20 · · Rl084

But, let me say to you, there may be a rat going between the seats over there now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Torngat. MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I believe the han. gentleman is trying to use up my ten minutes speaking time. I would suggest to the han. gentleman that if he cannot take the heat he should get out of the kitchen. The han. gentleman also knows that on February 8, 1985, he had somebody else call my home and they were given orders as to what to request of me. If you cannot s~and the heat, get out of the kitchen.

I should tell the hon. member, as he goes walking out in shame, that the han. member knows that whomever they elect as leader of the Liberal Party will only last about two years. MR. TOBIN: You will have somebody else to stab. You stabbed Barry, you stabbed Rowe and you stabbed Roberts. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude on a very serious note. Today we are talking about Interim Supply, dollars that have to be used for social assistance recipients and to pay teachers and civil servants. Mr.

Chairman, regardless of the cat calling on both sides of the House, we should be serious enough· to know that we are talking about the business of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I believe that if we all work together not for our own betterment but for the betterment of those in all our ·districts, then Newfoundland and Labrador L1085 March 27, 1987 Vol XL , ~ . ' will be a much better place in which to 1i ve. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member fa[' Burgee - Bay d' Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

After the brilliance of the debate here this morning and the heckling from the back row over there, I feel we are going to have to carry on again with the great tradition of this House, when we have the member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach) sitting there firing his broadsides. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I am very serious about this. In passing this bill we are being asked to pass two thirds of the provincial budget. We are asked to give permission for the government to spend this money without really getting into the indepth investigation we should get into before we give this carte blanche approval.

Before I get into that, I would like to say a few words about some of the debate I have heard here this morning. I heard the Minister of Health get up and defend very adequately health services in this Province. To listen to him, you would say that we did not have any problems in his department here in Newfoundland. It would seem to me, from the description that the hon. minister gave, that in his mind that is what he feels. But there are serious problems in the Department of Health .in Newfoundland.

I do not think some of them have been addressed, even though the minister, in his well modulated tones, certainly. gave a No. 20 R1085

brilliant defence of his department here this morning. There are a couple of concerns that I have, and I have been raising those concerns since May, 1985, when I first asked the minister some questions concerning health care in this Province. One concern has to do with health care for senior citizens. I asked the ministert a question at that time about a senior citizens home which was promised during the 1985 election for the town of Milltown, in my district of Burgee - Bay d'Espoir.

At the time, the minister claimed that he was not aware that there had · been a promise made, even though I put documented proof before this House. At that time, the minister said he was going to investigate it and have a Conunittee set up to again study senior citizens homes and health care in this Province - this was in May of 1985 - and he promised that this report would be brought back to the House by the Fall of 1985. When I asked him where the report was in February, 1986, he said it was eminent and would certainly be here by May of 1986. Now, we have not had a report from that Committee.

I understand that the report has been brought in but it has been classed as a private document, only to be shown at the departmental level. It is not to be made public, even though the minister indicated to me that it certainly would be made public, and the new breakdown of where senior citizens' homes should go would be made known within months. It is now two years since I asked this question.

The reason for bringing it up here today, of course,. is the fact that there is still not · a senior Ll086 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . ( citizens' home in Milltown or, for that matter, anywhere on the South Coast of Newfoundland.

So when I heard the minister stand here today and say that all is well with health care services in Newfoundland, I wondered if the senior citizens I talked to in the senior citizens' home in Stephenville who come from Milltown, who come from Head of Bay d'Espoir, and the senior citizens who are in boarding homes in Manuels who come from Burgeo, would be as sure as the minister is that all is well in the health care field in Newfoundland. I do not think they would, Mr. Chairman. I am sure they would not. This is a serious problem.

I would like the Minister of Health to stand in this House sometime soon and give a report on the need for senior citizens' homes in areas where they should be in this " Province, bearing in mind that on the South Coast, Mr. Chairman, from Grand Bank to Port aux Basques, there is not a senior citizens' home. I am sure the minister would be interested in making a statement on that sometime. It is something we should look at. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. GILBERT: Let the gentlemen over there talk, Mr. Chairman.

They realize that there is a serious problem with health care in this Province which they are not prepared to address . They can sit and scoff and try to put me off my frame of thought, but that is irrelevant. The situation is we have a serious problem. I think one of the great philosophers said, "A society that does not look af~er its seniors or No. 20 Rl086

its youth is in trouble." Well, this government has failed in looking after its seniors. I can assure you that if you talked - I could go into another one now very quickly -about youth unemployment, you would find that this government has failed another one of the checkoffs on the report card of 'A society that does not look after its youth or its seniors is in trouble.' That also is a serious problem, but right now senior citizens are the ones I am concerned about.

To get back to the Interim Supply Bill, we are being asked to give government the opportunity to spend two-thirds of the budget without really having adequate time to debate it. You kn·ow, I ·feel that maybe there is some serious problem with a government that has to do .this. Every year, in March, we are asked to approve an. amount of money without really having the proper time to investigate it. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) if he could tell the people of Newfoundland when the actual budget is going to be brought down.

I am sure the people of Newfoundland are very concerned about what is going to happen when the budget is brought down. They have heard the thoughts of impending doom and gloom and everything associated with the budget, so if we are going to have an Interim Supply Bill asking us to approve two~thirds of it without proper debate, I would think it would only be fair if the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) would let the people of Newfoundland see what is in store for them for this year and give us the date when the budget is going L1087 March 27, 1987 Vol XL ( . to be brought down so that we will not have to commit this money without proper investigation. In my particular case, I look at the figure that is in there for transportation. We have heard a lot about transportation in this House over the last few days, and I see that $127 million of this Interim Supply is going into transportation. Again, you could use that in my particular district and there · would still be some serious problems.

Speaking of things happening in transportaion in Newfoundland, the South Coast of Newfoundland, as some of ·you are aware, is still serviced by CN Marine in certain areas. MR. TOBIN: The Gallipoli. MR. GILBERT: Yes. I am glad the minister brought up TPe Ga1lipoli. That is an interesting point. That was a point I was going to get to, as a matter of fact, because right now The Gallipoli runs between Ramea, Burg eo, and Grey River.

I just received a copy of a letter from the minister that he had written to the people of Grey River telling them that they were going to reduce the service of The Gallipoli, they were taking away one of the weekly scheduled runs into Grey River, they were going to cut that back. Now, here is a situation where CN Marine have cut back their transportation services on the South Coast, when CN. Marine are the highroad of the South Coast.

They operate the highroad to certain areas -Grey River, Francois, McCallum -in my district, yet, without any reason at all or without the people being aware, they received a letter from No. 20 R1087

the minister, which was written on March 14 or 15 - I got it a couple of days ago - saying that one of the scheduled trips into Grey River was going to be cut back. The Grey River ferry operates from Rarnea to Grey River on · Tuesday morning and then back again Tuesday evening, and Thursday it goes in to take in the doctor and some others. So those people in the · community of Grey River are going to lose a service they had. They had a better service fifteen years ago. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mitchell): Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. MR. TOBIN: Give him leave! MR. CHAIRMAN': Do we have leave? SOME HON.

MEMBERS: By leave! MR. CHAIRMAN: Leave has been granted. MR. GILBERT: I realize there are other members who want to speak, so I will just fin ish this off. Again, the bon. the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) pointed out The Gallipoli. The Department of Transportation has taken over some of CN Marine's services, and now we find that they are starting to cut back on the ferry service into Grey River, an area that has to be connected either by CN Marine or the Department of Transportation ferry.

Since $127 million is going to be voted for transportation in Interim Supply, I would like the Minister of Transportation to withdraw the decision he has made to cut back L1088 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . ( the ferry service to those people of Grey River whose way of life is connected to the rest of Newfoundland by a ferry trip twice a week. Mr. Chairman, I would like to continue, and I could for quite some time on this, but other members want to speak so I will conclude my remarks right now. Than~ you very much. SOME"HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN': The han. the member for st.

John's - South. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, just very briefly. The han. member who just spoke brought up a number of points that I would like to respond to. I am sure there were other comments, and I will be glad to respond to those if I can. But just to respond to the han. member very briefly, there is a difficulty, we all admit that, about the Interim Supply Bill. There are not the details presented to the House when the Interim Supply Bill is brought in similar to the details presented when the main supply bill, which is our budget, is brought down.

As han. members know, when the budget is brought down we then go into a particular mechanism, the Estimates Committees, and there are all sorts of details brought out either voluntarily or in response to questions. Now, the Interim Supply Bill does not have that mechanism and that No. 20 R1088

is clearly, on the surface, a problem and I can well understand that. Here members of the Commit tee are asked to vote on a resolution which will lead to a bill which will commit the House to ratify a very large expenditure.

Now, the only justification for doing it that way is this: Firstly, if there are any entirely new items, items that have not been in previous budgets and presumably the idea behind those i terns has been well discussed and all that sort of thing, as long as new items which have not been in previous budgets are laid out, which is done -that is a requirement of the Financial Administration Act actually -and as long as there is some assurance given that the main supply bill - the budget in other words -will not be too long delayed so that the proportion of money from the. main supply bill that is in the Interim Supply Bill then is also available for discussion in short order, I think nevertheless it is reasonable to expect the Committee, and subsequently the House, to go ahead with this.

And I would like to assure the hon. member that what is in· the Interim Supply Bill, other than the new stuff which I already read out, is of the ordinary type of expenditure that governments have to have, and I can also assure him that the main supply bill will come down very shortly. As a matter of fact, in answer to his question I can tell him that the budget date is Thursday, April 2 and, as hon. members know, we usually confine that day· just to that matter of business.

So Thursday, April 2, is Budget Day, and I will· expect to be able to present as many details as Ll089 March 27, 1987 Vol XL 'f possible during the hour or so that is given over to the Budget Speech, and subsequently the Estimate Committees will be set up very promptly and hon. members will have an opportunity of delving into all the details of the budget, and, of course, at that time they will also be able to delve into the details of the expenditures in the Interim Supply Bill; they will be able to delve into the matters that the Interim Supply Bill expenditures relate to, too.

So I just wanted to assure the hon. member that it is understandable that there is always this question about, are we voting a pig in a poke here? No, it is not really a pig in a poke. It would only be a pig in a poke if the main supply bill was long delayed, ·or secondly, if there were a lot of new things in the Interim Supply Bill that were not brought to the attention of Committee. I can assure the Committee that that is not the case, that the new things have been brought in in my opening remarks on the resolution. So with those few remarks, Mr. Chairman, I move the resolution. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) for finally announcing the day the budget will be brought down, April 2. We all look forward to that. We were shell shocked when the No. 20 R1089

Premier told us that the Province was bankrupt and that we should not expect any goodies in the budget. Since it will not be an election budget, taxes will probably go up, there may be cutbacks in various departments, our capital cost programmes will probably be down and current account will be up - current account is the money for our day to day operations. Last year it was almost $70 million, and if we had not had a strike it would have been even more. This year we are hearing rumours to the effect that current account will be up to $150 million.

I want to say a few words with regard to the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr . Warren) talking about his having a district to look after ·, and not only his own district, but he also has to look after Bellevue district and any other district he gets calls from. He also said that he crossed the floor of the House so that he could help his district. MR. TOBIN: And he did. MR.

HISCOCK: He did, yes, but most . of federal money, as it has been. it is always One thing that is · quite true is that he represents a district which has the largest aboriginal population in this Province, and here we are having a First Ministers' Conference in Ottawa on this issue and the Parliamentary Secretary for - MR. WARREN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the han. the Ll090 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . ., ' member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Chairman, I was in the gallery listening to the bon. gentleman when he said it was most federal money that was going into my district. Just last year $200,000 went into my district from the provincial government, every cent provincial money, for a half mile of road, the first provincial road in my district, in the town of Hopedale. MR. HISCOCK: After thirty-nine years Confederation, Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN: in Are you speaking to that point of order? MR. HISCOCK: There is no point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is not a point of order, just a difference of opinion between two han. gentlemen.

The bon. the m~mber for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: I agree with the member for Torngat Mountains, that gradually a little bit of money is beginning to seep up to Labrador. It is shameful to have to stand in this House and say, after thirty-nine years of Confederation, that we finally have a road in Hopedale. There is still no road in Paradise River, and there is still a community in my district which does not have power, Norman Bay. The point I want to get back to is the member for Torngat Mountains represents more aboriginal people than anyone else in House, the No. 20 Rl090 ·

First Ministers' Conference is going on in Ottawa, and what does the Premier and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs do? and I assume the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development is there - What do they do? How are the priorities of the aboriginal people being deal with when the member - I could understand it if he was on the Opposition side - is on the government side and he was not invited to be there? MR. WARREN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR.

WARREN: Mr. · Chairman, I am amazed to hear the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) making such statements. The bon. member for Eagle River must realize that - he has seen the gentleman in the gallery all the week - a businessman from my district had business in town and I have been helping him out all week. Furthermore, the bon. gentleman should know that when our Premier spoke at the First Ministers I Conference last night he was the only Premier who got a standing ovation - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

WARREN: because he spoke up for Newfoundlanders ·and Labradorians, and for the people of Torngat Mountains. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ll091 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . I • Order, please! The hon. the member for Eagle River on the point of order. MR. HISCOCK: I am not going to speak to the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Then you may continue. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. is, if I were on that the member representing district of Torngat I would want to be at first hand, and not Minister of Rural, The point side and the great Mountains, that table, have the Agricultural Development, anybody else and Northern or the Premier, or tell me what went on. I can also understand what the member for Torngat Mountains said when he talked about having a businessman here from his district. I know the gentleman.

He is a fine gentleman, and I am sure he would have understood if the hen. member could not be here this week and he would have made arrangements to do his business another week. MR. WARREN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: The han; gentleman does not know what he is talking about. The reason the gentleman was in town - I do not think he had any control over it - was that his wife was sick and he had to visit the hospital. Now ·, if the hon. gentleman thinks that I can tell No. 20 Rl091

the han. gentleman when his wife can get sick, he is crazy. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! There is no point of order, just a difference of opinion between two han. gentleman. I would ask the gentleman from Torngat to allow the han. the member for Eagle River to continue with his speech. Thank you. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, I do not know why the gentleman is in town. I regret that his wife is in hospital, because she is a fine lady. I have been in Makkovik and I have met her. The point is, is the member for 'Torngat Mountains a chauffeur or is he a member? Where is he needed most?

Up there at that Conference speaking on behalf of the people of Torngat Mountains. And the reason he is not at that Conference is because he does believe in his people. He represents them, and he has stronger convictions than the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer) or the Premier or the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. But they know that if he is there he is probably going to be interviewed by the press and he may say something that would embarrass this government. So, they basically say, 'Well, Garfield, sorry boy, you have to stay home and keep your seat warm.

Do some taxi driving while you are here.' Mr. Chairman, I just make the comment that I am a bit surprised that the member who represents the most aboriginal people is not at that Conference. I cannot understand why the Cabinet, or the Ll092 March 27, 1987 Vol XL '' Premier have slighted the people of Torngat Mountains by not inviting him attend. As far as I am concerned, it is one of the biggest slights of all. They said years ago that the former Premier, Mr. Smallwood, treated the member for Bonavista South, Mr. Barbour, with contempt.

As far as I am concerned, the Premier of this Province is treating the people of Torngat Mountains with contempt. Mr. Chairman, I am glad the Minister of Fisheri~s (Mr Rideout) is here. The Tory Government in Ottawa is again putting the boots to rural Newfoundland and Labrador by basically saying to Torngat Co-op and Labrador Shrimp Union Company that they have to buy their own trawlers. These trawlers cost $8 million to $9 million, they can only can use them two or three months of the year, so they will not be able to afford to buy them.

Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec want those shrimp licenses, and they are saying to their Tory counterparts in Ottawa, do away with these royal charter licenses. What happens now is these two fish companies get the licenses, give them to the Danes to catch the shrimp, then they sell the- shrimp on the market as a Danish product and any profit goes to subsidize the fish plants in Cartwright, in Mary' s Harbour and in L'Anse-au-Loup.

Because of that subsidization we have seen the people get away from the traditional salting of their fi-sh - salt bulk, as it is called - and we have seen them get into the processing of fresh fish, just like St. John's, just like ­ Catalina, and just like Port aux Basques. MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 20 Rl092

Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. HISCOCK: Could I have just a few minutes, by leave? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is leave granted? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you kindly. I am glad, as I said, the Minister of Fisheries is listening. Because one of the things that is happening is that they are taking this profit and putting it into these plants so' they can process fresh fish. Cartwright now processes fresh fish, as well as L' Anse-a-Loup.

And if it was not for that profit from shrimp, we would not have the money to subsidize those plants, and if we did not subsidize _those plants it would be uneconomical for those plants to be in operation. What we would then see again is the old poverty syndrome in Labrador and Newfoundland, of just trying to get eight or ten stamps and collect UIC for the rest of the year. Instead we see women working in these plants, younger people and older people. What we have on -the Labrador, for the first time in a long while, is two people in a fami·ly, husband -and wife, working.

With the cost of living in Labrador -it is high as well as in any other of the Province, but particularly Labrador -two people need to work because of the high cost of fuel, food, electricity, and also they L1093 March 27, 1987 Vol XL · ... , I have to maintain Summer homes as well as Winter homes. They have to maintain skidoos or a truck as well as boats, and their fishing supplies. Now we see this threatened by a Tory Government in Ottawa that is taking pressure from larger companies in Nova Scotia who want their trawlers licenced.

We saw what they did to the Nova Scotia fishermen by giving National Sea a factory freezer trawler in the North. If that is any indication, they will also give in to Nova Scotia again and probably end up saying to these two companies, to ban them and buy their own. I am also again amazed at the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) saying the Torngat Fishermen's Co-op should · have their licence extended for two years, after two years they can buy this vessel. Well, Mr. Chairman, two years is not enough. There should be no limit put on it.

We should have the same system as we have now of this royal charter to allow the Danes and people of Labrador to fish out of and work this Danish boat, catch the product, sell it under a Danish label and then take the profit. I am surprised that the member for Torngat Mountains suggests to give them two more years. Mr. Chairman, the problem is still going to be there in two years, and that is they need the profit from the selling of shrimp to subsidize the other plants and to expand the fishery along the Labrador Coast.

The Labrador Shrimp Union Company wanted to move into L' Anse-au-Clair and get into buying fresh fish there, filleting it and packing it, and thus create more jobs. Also the people down in Red Bay want to get into drying their fish and is No. 20 R1093

asking this government licence. And what is for a this government doing? They are basically not giving a licence. So it seems, Mr. Chairman, that when local fishermen and local companies try to get ahead in Labrador, it seems that somebody in Bay Roberts or Catalina or Nova Scotia is blocking them, and the Tories in Ottawa and Newfoundland are listening to them and they take advice from those areas, from Morrissey Johnson and from other members, and Mr. Crosbie than they do from the local conuni t tees, development associations and individual fishermen. So, Mr.

Chairman, I am glad, as I said, the Minister of Fisheries is in the House today, and we will make sure that he will do everything in his power to make sure that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Siddon) in Ottawa understands the importance of allowing Coastal Labrador, the Labrador Shrimp Union Company and the Torngat Co-op to continue with their ships . One of the arguments he could use is if they have to buy their own boat, then the fish plant in L'Anse-a-Loup is going to be in economic difficulty, probably will have to close, and then it lay off 200 people or more. Then what is going to happen?

There is going to be less money in that area, there is going to be less money that people will have to go with to the Hudson Bay in Quebec, in Blanc Sablan and other stores in Quebec, an area that is represented by the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister should be concerned that if less money goes in his area there are going to be less jobs in his own area. So it is in the Prime Minister's interests to make sure that that these licences continue. Ll094 Karch 27, 1987 Vol XL ~ So. Mr. Speaker, in concluding I thank the House for granting leave.

I hope that the Minister of Fisheries gets up after me and talks about this serious issue, because it is probably the most critical issue, that is facing Coastal Labrador today. I hope that he has some answers and some assurances to alleviate the fears and the anxiety that people in Coastal Labrador are now feeling about this threat, by the Tory Government in Ottawa, of taking away from the poor and smaller areas of our country and giving to the larger arears and corporations. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Chairman, I will take advantage of ·a few minutes to respond to I guess basically what was raised in Question Period this morning, when I was unavoidably absent, by the member for Eagle River, and again just recently. Mr : Chairman, on the issue of Northern shrimp licences, first of all, let me say that this Province operates from the principle that those people who are closest and most adjacent to the resource ought to be the first people to benefit from harvesting that resource. That is the principle on which we form all our policy in terms of Northern shrimp or Northern cod or anything.

So that principle is firmly established by this Province and it is from that principle that we make our representations to the federal government in terms of the resource allocation. It was Chairman, No. 20 for that that this reason, Province, Mr. not Rl094

yesterday or today or last week or last month, but for the last eight or ten months has been working very, very closely with the principals of the Labrador Union Shrimp Company, the Newfoundland and Labrador Fishermen's Union, and the Board of Directors of Torngat Co-op to ensure that as Canadianization takes place those two companies in particular are not adversely affected by the principle of Canadianization. I do not think there is anybody in their right mind who would argue against Canadianization of the effort. That is a motherhood issue.

If we can find a way to be able to Canadianize the harvesting effort on that resource then it is to Newfoundland and Labrador's benefit that Canadianization take place. But Canadianization cannot take place at any expense. Canadianization cannot take place at the expense of those two companies in particular going out of business.

It is for that reason that for the last seven or eight months we have developed a joint proposal with the Labrador Union Shrimp Company, with Torngat Co-op, with the support of the Fishermen's Union, to have Canadianization take place and yet preserve the very fine effort that those two companies in particular are making in using their royalties from the shrimp charter which is very, very lucrative, to cross-subsidize their other operations in other communities and places along the Labrador Coast. We are 100 per cent fully supportive of that principle, of that concept.

Now what has happened at this· point in time, Mr. Chairman, is simply this: The federal government-has decided that based on the shrimp resource L1095 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . I , I availability in the North to issue three new licences, and three new licences have been approved. One if for a joint venture between National Sea Products and the LIA, the Labrador Inuit Association, and any onshore processing that results in that joint venture will be done in Newfoundland and Labrador, so that is a Newfoundland-Labrador based operation. We have no difficulty in supporting that approval.

The second approval was for the Harbour Grace Fishing Company. That again is a Newfoundland operation. We have no difficulty in supporting that approval. The third approval was for a Native group in the Baffin Islands. For the same reason that Native groups in Labrador had been able to get approval, there is approval given for a Native group in the Baffin Islands, which we have no difficulty with. So out of the three new licences that have been approved Newfoundland and Labrador based operations have received two of them. That we have no difficulty with.

There is a fourth licence yet to come and that fourth licence I suspect is where the future viability hopefully of the Labrador Union Shrimp Company and Torngat will lie. I believe that there is every reason to be optimistic that a potential .:joint venture can be arranged between the Labrador Union Shrimp Company and Torngat Co-op with somebody else in Newfoundland and Labrador so that the harvesting effort can, in fact, be Canadianized, and so that the principal benefits of the shrimp revenue can continue to go to those two companies as it has in the past. With that in mind, one has to try No. 20 R1095

to ensure that those companies are placed on the same footing as any other company in Canada. They cannot, as the bon. gentleman said, Canadianize their effort on a six-month operation. MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the han. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: If I may ask the Minister of Fisheries a question. He is saying that the fourth license will be an extra license to combine the Torngat Fishermens' Co-op and the Labrador Shrimp Union Company so they can get an extra license?

Or is he saying that the two existing licenses that they have now have to be combined? MR. RIDEOUT: There is no point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr ·. Chairman, what the han. gentleman posed, in the disguise of a point of order, is, in fact, what is being contemplated. It will not be a combination of the two licenses that the Labrador Union Shrimp Company holds now and the one license that Torngat Co-op holds. Those are still there and will always be there.

There is a possibility of a new license in addition to those three to be issued to a joint ventute or co-venture of the two with somebody else. So, what that will hopefully do, Ll096 Karch 27, 1987 Vol XL •I Mr. Chairman, as I was saying when I was interrupted, is you cannot expect those companies to Canadianize their effort based on a six-month fishery. It is not economic. It is not viable. They cannot do it.

What would be viable is putting those companies on the same footing as other companies that hold shrimp licenses, like Fishery Products, like National Sea, like Mercy Seafoods out of Nova ·scotia, and like the Harbour Grace fishing company. All those other companies that hold shrimp licenses also hold offshore allocations so that they can fish shrimp during the season, but they can then move on to fish other species when the shrimp fishery is over. There are ways of doing that. There is still surplus cod available in 2GH, as everybody knows. There is no surplus of cod in 2J+3KL, unless it is for the French.

There is certainly no surplus for us. But there are other surplus species available in 2J+3KL that are lucrative species like halibut and red fish. So it is possible to be able to access enough surplus offshore species for those companies either on their own or in joint venture with somebody else so that they can have a twelve-month, rounded out fishing plan, so that. they can take advantage of the shrimp season and then move on and take advantage of harvesting .other species. That, Mr. Chairman, is workable. That is the direction that we, as a Province, want to move in.

That is the direction that the federal government is is working on the direction No. 20 sympathetic to and with us. That is that the Labrador R1096

Union Shrimp Company itself, the Newfoundland Fishermens' Union, and ourselves, are jointly working on, because we are just as definitive in maintaining the integrity and the viability of those two operations for the benefit of the people of the Coast of Labrador as is the han. gentleman or any other han. gentleman in this Chamber, Mr. Chairman. MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the me~ber for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, let me ~ay that if I were you I would consider my position.

Your stand-in did such a tremendous Job that perhaps you might reconsider who you put there in the future when you want to leave. He really did a marvellous job in the Chair. This debate is on Interim Supply. It has provided an opportunity for members of the Opposition to raise points of concern. We have seen, over the last few days, points of concern raised in terms of district problems, and I think in terms of my han. friend from Bellevue, the hospital problem, and some other problems in his district. There have been some district issues raised simply because the debate has been wide-ranging.

Almost any topic, I suppose, Mr. Chairman, could come under the list of one of the departments that has an expenditure on this particular bill. So, it has provided an opportunity to air certain grievances and for L1097 March 27, 1987 Vol XL . , . ' members to get on record with regards to certain issues. There have also been some serious questions asked concerning the specifics of Interim Supply and the specifics of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and his budget.

We are very pleased to see that he announced that on April 2 the budget will be presented to the House and at that time, of course, we will get mu-ch more detail on some of the budget questions that_ I asked a couple of times previously. The minister was not in his Chair so I would simply like to remind him and at some future date, I suppose, we could get some answers. Twice during the Interim Supply de~ate there were some financial questions that I had and, unfortunately, the minister-was not in his seat and answers were not obtained to these financial questions.

I stated that I felt the Minister of Finance was the only member opposite who really could answer those questions. I would like to remind him of what these items were. First of all, they had to do with the Public Accounts of the Province and how a bond issue can be listed as an American bond issue in one year, the 1984-85 Public Accounts and then in the 1985-86 Public Accounts be suddenly listed as Canadian. One wonders how these changes took place and I have expounded in the past at great length on that point.

There were some other considerations with regard to the Public Accounts of the Province and I just want to remind myself of which ones I brought up. The other one has to do with an amount that is mentioned in 1985 Public Accounts as to what the No. 20 R1097

debt would increase to due to the foreign exchange if that conversion were made. In the 1985 Public Accounts it is mentioned as $277 million, Mr. Minister, and in the 1986 public accounts the same amount for the same date which is March 31, 1985 is now mentioned as $227 million. Again, 1 expounded on that point and I feel that there has not been an answer given. I think on some of the matters the member for st. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) attempted to elucidate and instead of elucidating succeeded in confusing the matter further, so I am sure the Minister of Finance would like to straighten out the member for St. John's North as well as myself. Anyway, these are some of the financial points that have been raised with regard to Interim Supply. We are getting very rapidly to the time, Mr. Chairman, when, if Interim Supply is not passed, then, of course, there are problems that are going to be created for the government.

We ran into that situation last year because the government was very lax and very late in bringing in the Interim Supply Bill. This year we see a greater degree of co-operation. The Interim Supply Bill was brought in enough ahead of time so that members could air grievances that they might have had. We feel that nothing would be gained by prolonging this matter any further. We have our seventy-five hours to debate budgetary matters anyway and we can get back to budgetary details once, of course, we see the budget.

We can then, much more easily, get at the Minister of Ll098 March 27, 1987 Vol XL ·I Finance because then we will have more information and we can make sure that he accounts for what is happening financially in this Province. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that perhaps that the motion be put at this time and when that is done we can consider it one o'clock. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: I have one thing, Mr. Chairman. I quite agree. I will only be a few minutes and then the resolution will carry, but seeing it is Interim Supply and we have !in open dedate, I want to speak now.

When we go through the Throne Speech, we may not be able to have such an open debate. The point that I want to raise very briefly is the policy that the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) brought up. People are occupying land illegally for cabins, and he is basically now giving them until July 1 to pay $250 and then the registration fee thereafter so they will get control of the land.

There is no question overall when one looks at it is probably a very good programme because we do not want people building on Crown land without having some regulations over wildlife, pollution in various rivers, as well as other problems associated with people taking Crown land illegally. But it question, Labrador No. 20 comes down to another particularly, in Coastal because before Rl098

Confederation the people in Labrador never had the right to vote. It was only in the National Convention for Confederation that they got the franchise. Long before any attention was given by Newfoundland to Labrador, they had a traditional lifestyle. The traditional lifestyle was fishing in the Summer, and going inland in the Winter to trap, to hunt, to cut logs for fire wood, to cut logs for building, and also to cut logs for building boats. We had cabins, but you cannot call them cabins.

You should call them tilts, or you can them survival cabins where people go from one place to the other to do some hunting of partridge in the Spring. Some of these survival tilts are only used two or three times a year, and the people in Coastal Labrador feel that they have as much right to their traditional lifestyle as the Innu in North West River who claim they have a right to a traditional lifestyle, for example, by killing caribou when they want and at what time they want, irregardless of the laws of the Province.

The people in Coastal Labrador, particulary, are extremely upset because when this programme is brought into effect, it may interfere with their survival cabins or their tilts that they use for cutting wood and for doing a little bit of hunting and fire wood cutting. For example, at Black Tickle, you have to go twenty-five miles to get wood at Porcupine Bay. Now, people do not just go up and get one load of fire wood.

They go up for a week or two and occupy these survival cabins or tilts or whatever you want to call them while they are cutting the wood, L1099 March 27, 1987 Vol XL ., then once the wood is stockpiled, they start taking it out by skidoo or floating it out in the Spring. I can give examples like that all along the coast. So the point is people have this way of life. It may be okay for the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.

Simms) to bring in this policy for the people down on the Salmonier Line or Deer Park or the West Coast or Gander River or other areas of the Province, but for Coastal Labrador, particularly for these survival cabins, they should be exempted. Their way of life should be respected and they should not have to spend this amount of money to get these cabins. I hope that the member for Grand Falls will realize that the Premier of this Province takes great pride in saying that he likes going in the woods and catching a few rabbits.

Is the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands saying that if he is going to go in the woods to catch rabbits and he stays in a survival hut or tilt that that has to be registered and that has to be paid for each year at an annual rate of $50? If it is only a couple of rabbits, he would be better off buying the rabbits on the side of the road out near his district at Springdale. We are talking about a way of life that this government is gradually moving in on in rural Newfoundland. That is an example where they now have to get a permit to cut wood. Their fees for small game have increased over the years.

A lot of people look upon this as another way of raising taxes. Government is always saying that they have not raised the ·taxes, but they are No. 20 R1099

raising taxes indirectly by putting up licence fees, putting up fees on cars and trucks, small game, and putting fees up in any other way that they can to get money indirectly. The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands says that lots of fees are being paid and they are just swarming in. The Premier likes to catch a few rabbits from the point of view, Mr. Chairman, of keeping in touch with wildlife,

whereas the people in Labrador, when they go catching rabbits or partridge or any other small game, they do it as a way of life. They feel that their way of life is being jeopardized by a government located in St. John's, with ministers from St. John's and other large urban areas who do not understand their need to have these smaller huts and tilts. I hope the member for Torngat Mountains (Kr. Warren) , who knows the need for these small survival huts and tilts, will impress upon the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands to have Coastal Labrador exempt from the Crown Lands policy. So on that note, Mr.

Chairman, I agree that the resolution should pass. However, I hope that my words will not fall on deaf ears and that the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands will act on this matter and have Labrador exempt from that policy. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): . Order, please!

Resolution That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for LllOO March 27, 1987 Vol XL ., defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1988, the sum of seven hundred and fifty-three million four hundred and eighty-six thousand one hundred dollars ($753,486,100). On motion, resolution carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the resolution without amendment, carried. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise and report progress.

On motion, that the Committee rise and report progress, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Order, please! The han. the member for Terra Nova. MR. GREENING: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered the matters to them referred and has directed me to report that it has adopted a certain resolution and recommends that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same. MR.

SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole reports that it has considered the matters to it referred, has directed him to report that it has adopted a certain resolution and recommends that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same. On motion, resolution read a first and second time. On motion, a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain ·Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public No. 20 RllOO

Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of Karch One Thousand Nine Hundred And Eighty-Eight And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service... (Bill No. 16). On motion, Bill No. 16 read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: I wonder if the acting Government House Leader could indicate what the order of business is going to be on Monday? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, just let me say first that I thank han. members of the House for passing this bill in good time. There is pay day coming up next Wednesday, so it means that the public servants and others who are paid out of the public treasury will be able to get their cheques on time, and I thank the members for this. I might add that His Honour, normally speaking, would now come in and give Royal Assent, but His Honour had a prior engagement. We were informed of this, and he will now give the Royal Assent at Government House at three o • clock this afternoon. We have done that before. It is quite in order.

That will not hold up the procedures. In regard to the next order of LllOl March 27, 1987 Vol XL I • , business, it will be Order 14, which relates to The Newfoundland Standard Time Act. There is a time issue here that we have to bring in by, I think, the fit"st Sunday in April. So, if bon. members are agreeable, we could call it one o'clock. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. DR. COLLINS: Well, in that case, Mr. Speaker, I move that the House adjourn until tomorrow, Monday, at three of the clock, and this House do now adjourn.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Monday, at 3:00 p.m. · No. 20 RllOl

MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR Third Session -Fortieth General Assembly Han. A. Brian Peckford, P.C., Premier Han. P.J.McNicholas, Speaker Han. Roger Simmons, P.C., Leader of the Opposition Member Aylward, Kevin (Lib) Aylward, Han. Robert J. (PC) Baird, Raymond J. (PC) Baker, Winston (Lib) Barrett, Han. Harold (PC) Barry, Leo (Lib) Blanchard, Han. Ted. A. (PC) Brett, Han. Charlie (PC) Butt, Han. John (PC) Callan, Wilson (Lib) Carter, John A. (PC) Carter, Walter C. (Lib) Collins, Han. John F. (PC) Dawe, Han.

Ron (PC) Decker, Chris (Lib) Dinn, Jerome W. (PC) Doyle, Norman E. (PC) Efford, John (Lib) Fenwick, Peter (NDP) Flight, Graham (Lib) Furey, Chuck (Lib) Gilbert, Dave (Lib) Greening, Glenn C. (PC) Hearn, Han. Loyola (PC) Hiscock, R. Eugene (Lib) Hodder,. James E. (PC) Kelland, Jim (Lib) Long, Gene (NDP) Lush, Tom (Lib) . , . District Stephenville Kilbride Humber West Gander St. John's West Mount Scio -Bell Island Bay of Islands Trinity North Conception Bay South Bellevue St. John's North Twillingate St. John's South St.

George's Strait of Belle Isle Pleasantville Harbour Main Port de Grave Menihek Windsor-Buchans St. Barbe Burgee-Bay d'Espoir Terra Nova St. Mary's-The Capes Eagle River Port au Port Naskaupi St. John's East Bonavista North

MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR Third Session -Fortieth General Assembly Member Matthews, Hon. William (PC) McNicholas, Hon. Dr. P.J. (PC) Mitchell, Calvin (PC) Morgan, James (PC) Ottenheimer, Hon. Gerald R. (PC) Parsons, Kevin (PC) Patterson, William G. (PC) Peach, Milton (PC) ..• 2 ... Peckford, A. Brian, P.C.-(PC) (Premier) Power, Hon. Charlie (PC) Reid, James G. (PC) Rideout, Hon. Thomas G. (PC) Russell, Hon. Maxwell James (PC) Simms, Hon. Len. (PC) Simmons, Hon. Roger P.C. (Lib) Tobin, Glenn (PC) Tulk, R. Beaton (Lib) Twomey, Hon. Dr. Hugh Matthew (PC) Verge, Hon.

Lynn (PC) Warren, Garfield E. (PC) Windsor, Hon. H. Neil (PC) Woodford, Rick (PC) Young, Hon. Haig (PC) . I • District Grand Bank St. John's Centre LaPoile Bonavista South Waterford -Kenmount St. John's East Extern Placentia Carbonear Green Bay Ferry land Trinity -Bay de Verde Baie Verte -White Bay Lewisporte Grand Falls Fortune-Hermitage Burin -Placentia West Fogo Exploits Humber East Torngat Mountains Mount Pearl Humber Valley Harbour Grace

THE MINISTRY -LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR . Third Session -Fortieth General Assembly Hon. William Matthews Hon. Gerald R. Ottenheimer Hon. Charlie Power Hon. Thomas G. Rideout Hon. Maxwell J. Russell Hon. Len 'simms Dr. The Hon. Hugh M. Twomey Hon. Lynn Verge Hon.. H. Neil Windsor Hon. Haig Young ., . -2- Culture, Recreation and Youth Energy President of the Council Government House Leader Career Development and Advanced Studies Fisheries Consumer Affairs·and Communications Forest Resources and Lands Health Justice President of Treasury Board Public Works and Services

THE MINISTRY - LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF IJEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR Third Session - Fortie~h General Assembly Hon. A. Brian Peckford, P.C. Hon. Robert J. Aylward Hon . Harold Barrett Hon . Ted A. Blanchard Hon . Charlie Brett Hon. John 'Butt Dr. The Hon. John F. Collins Hon . Ron Dawe Hon . Jerome W. Dinn Hon. Norman E. Doyle Hon. Loyola Hearn . ., . Premie .r Rural, Agricultural and Northerrt Development Development and Tourism Labour Social Services Environment Finance Transportatio.n Mines and Energy Municipal Affairs Education