Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 11 (36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-11

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session-Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 11- 1:30 p.m., Thesday, April20, 1999

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARREIT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Rossell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS,Ciif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. - LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C.

TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant St. Boniface

437 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April20, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I would like to table a statement of the Employee Fidelity Bonds, as well as the Annual Report for the Department of Finance, 1997-98, and also the Public Accounts for the year ending March 31, 1998. Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the following reports for the Department of Justice: The Fatality Inquiries Report for the year 1998; The Discriminatory Business Practices Act Annual Report for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1999; the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner AnnuaL Review, 1997; Annual Reports Concerning Complaints about Judicial Conduct, 1998; Civil Legal Services Special Operating Agency Annual Report for the year ending March 31, 1998. Hon.

Mike Radcliff e (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure today to table the 1997-98 Annual Report for the Department of Labour; 1997-98 Annual Report of the Manitoba Labour Board; and the 1997-98 Annual Report of the Office of the Fire Commissioner. These annual reports have already been distributed intersessionally. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, 1997-9 8.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty-five Grade 9 students from Springs Christian Academy under the direction of Mr. Brad Dowler. This school is located in the constituency of St. Boniface. And, forty-five Grades 7 and 8 students from Gordon Bell High School under the direction of Mr. Harold Neufeld. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. *

(1335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care Facilities Food Services-Operating Costs Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Last week we tabled minutes that demonstrated that the cooked food prepared at the frozen food facility was being shipped from the frozen food facility to the Deer Lodge hospital where it was being recooked, then shipped back to the frozen food facility to be refrozen again and retrayed, and then shipped back again to a hospital facility for serving to the patients. Madam Speaker, does the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) believe his Minister of Health that this is indeed a more efficient system to prepare and serve food to our patients in our hospitals? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, again, Madam Speaker, I think what the member opposite has to realize, and I hope that he agrees, that, first and foremost, the main objective is to provide quality nutritional food to the people in our health care facilities. Certainly that is the No. 1 ob jective of Urban Shared Services Corporation.

Obviously a part of their objective is to gain ef ficiencies, effectiveness through some of the changes and to allow those resources to be dedica ted to other health care

438 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 needs in the system, so that is the objective of the corporation. They have taken steps in terms of ensuring the quality of food, as outlined by the member opposite, in terms of the quality of vegetables in some cases. They have done that with a number of products. As I have indicated before, all of the food products are accessed through companies here in Manitoba; over 50 percent to 60 percent of that food is produced right here in Manitoba with the ongoing objective to continue to provide quality food to the people in our health care facilities. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, of course, this is in complete variance in the justifications on cost savings from this government over the last year. Of course, they do not have cost savings and we know that. We have been informed that the double blanched vegetables are driving up the costs for the preparation of vegetables. Diced carrots cost 53 percent more; sliced carrots cost 51 percent more; peas and carrots cost 40 percent more. I would like to know how double-blanching vegetables makes them better and how a 50 percent increase in cost makes them cheaper. Mr.

Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, there is a committee in place, a long-term care food advisory committee. They have been in place since last fall with the objective of continuing to assess the food to be sure it is of appropriate quality for the patients at our health care facilities. They have met a number of eight times, and this suggestion came from that committee relative to the whole issue of the preparation of vegetables in certain situations.

So it is a recommendation made by people who are working on behalf of the health care facilities to continue to provide quality nutritional food to the people in our facilities. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it came from the committee to deal with the frozen food folly of this government. They are trying to deal with the frozen food decision of the Filmon government rather than have an admission from this government that they made a mistake from day one, not studying New Brunswick, not having a business plan, not being able to prepare and table a contract, not having a cost-per-meal comparison.

Can the mmtster explain why double blanched food is better for vegetable preparation at a 32 percent extra cost for waxed beans and a 19 percent increased cost for broccoli? Why is that more efficient, and how can double blanched vegetables be better quality than having vegetables prepared the old-fashioned way, if I say so, in the kitchen by the people for the people? *

(1340) Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the rationale of the committee that made the recommendation to double-blanch the vegetables is to soften them in some cases to make them more appealing for individuals in certain situations, but again I question a lot of what comes from members opposite because we saw an example just last week where the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) tabled information here in this House that is currently being assessed by Deer Lodge facility. In fact, the CEO of Deer Lodge is quoted in· the paper as saying he spoke with all the senior nurses, and they do not know what this is all about.

He said the investigation could not find any evidence, and he really goes on to question the entire information that was provided by the member for Crescentwood. I think we all have an obligation, if we are going to bring an issue, to bring accurate, quality information to this House. I am pleased to indicate that I had a discussion this morning with the Provincial Auditor, and he has indicated, as part of his routine audits in 1999, they are going to be doing an audit of Urban Shared Services Corporation.

I would hope that would be something that would be welcome across the way, and he will certainly provide the accurate information to substantiate what is happening with this organization as it relates to capital costs and operating costs. Health Care Facilities Food Services-Meeting Request Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Health undertake to -

April 20, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 439 meet with the 14 families or the 14 patients whose loss of weight was so severe that they had to move one size down in their incontinent pads, their adult diapers-a sad commentary. Will he meet with the families of those people and explain why their loved ones have lost so much weight since November? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I will meet with any citizens of Manitoba as it relates to health care issues, but I am genuinely concerned about the quality of information that this member for Crescentwood brings to this House as it relates to this issue. My department has spoken with the CEO of Deer Lodge hospital who reported that he had met with the unit co-ordinators of every unit within the hospital, and that review could not identify any correlation between their patient records and the information that was tabled in this House on Friday.

The CEO went on to express the concern that this upset the residents and obviously upset the patients and upset their families. The CEO has embarked upon an analysis of every patient in the hospital, which will be reviewed and signed off by the appropriate senior nurse and physician so that it can be assessed whether there actaally are weight losses as tabled here. That is just an example of what is being done to follow up on the issue. This issue did come up last fall, and the WHA, the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, sent in their geriatric review team with people who are professionals in this area.

They certainly found that there was no correlation at that particular time between the weight loss issue and the issue of food in Deer Lodge. Food Services-Pa tient Weight Loss Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood, with a supplementary question. Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I wonder if the minister could explain to this House why a number of different health care professionals, long-term, committed, dedicated professional people would call and would provide information from their records that is so clear.

What possible interest would the staff, the professional caregivers of that facility who have spoken to us, have in providing incorrect information, and would he explain why, immediately after this information was made public, the hospital suddenly found it necessary to lock up the weight books and put away the data? *

(1345) Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I certainly encourage the member for Crescentwood to table that information here in this House. All he did last week was table two blank pieces of paper here in this House, does not indicate the source, does not indicate what the basis of it is. I do not know whether it was prepared in the NDP caucus room or where it was prepared.

But, as I indicated, when this issue was raised last fall, the geriatric team of the WHA went in, and I will table the release from that review that indicated very clearly there was no correlation between the issue of the food and the weight loss of patients at that particular point in time. I also quote from the CEO of the Deer Lodge facility who says: this is a cruel joke, a fabrication, he goes on to say, in terms of the information that was tabled here in this House by the member for Crescentwood. So I challenge him and encourage him to, when he comes to this House, bring accurate, credible information.

Do not use scare tactics. Do not try to scare patients. Do not try to scare families. Bring accurate information if you are going to discuss health care on behalf of Manitobans. Mr. Sale: I wonder, Madam Speaker, if the minister would explain to Pat Courtnage and to her mother and to the other families whose relatives and loved ones have lost so much weight since last November why Mr. Duprey was able to say on Thursday this was a fabrication while on Monday and Tuesday he is finally doing what he should have done in the first place, and that is an exhaustive check of every record.

How did he know it was so false on Thursday, and today they are actually checking the records to find out? Will he tell the families why that is the case? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, for the member opposite's benefit, ever since the change

440 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 in food and issues came up last fall, there have been significant trackings of these issues continually over the course of the last few months. It is tracked regularly, and it certainly is obviously taken seriously by the CEO of the facility but just as seriously by the physicians, the people providing the direct care for the individuals in all of our health care facilities, including Deer Lodge.

I have indicated very clearly that when this issue came up before, the geriatric team of the WHA, the experts in the field, the people who know these issues, the physicians and so on, not the member for Crescentwood, not myself, people who know how to deal with medical issues related to the public went in and they examined this issue, because, again, I had speculated at the time once again the member for Crescentwood was probably trying to use scare tactics towards all the citizens in Manitoba.

The experts went in, and they found no correlation between the issue of the food, the quality of the food and weight loss for any patients. Weight Joss for some patients was attributed to entirely different medical issues and medical factors. Again, I challenge this member, when he comes to this House, please bring accurate, credible information so we can have a meaningful discussion on health care in Manitoba. Manitoba Liquor Control Commission Licensing-C ubby Barrett Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): If they ever do a movie on the Monnin report, they are going to have to do a sequel because we are finding that many of the same cast of characters, not only involved in the attempt to fix the election in 1995, seem to pop up when it comes to liquor licence applications, the one area of government where the simple granting of a licence can make someone very wealthy. Of course, that brings me to Mr.

Cubby Barrett and his son, vacation friends of key Conservative cabinet ministers as recently, we understand, as a couple of months ago, who have been accused of using influence to get a licence in 1994-95 that the previous owners, the Sweeneys, could not get. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for the Liquor Commission whether she has conducted the investigation she said she would conduct in 1997 into some very serious accusations involving Mr. Barrett and the then head of the Liquor Control Commission and members of the commission involving possible use of influence to get a liquor licence. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Before committee, I reported to committee the method which was the usual method used in terms of acquiring that licence. Madam Speaker, as the member knows, there is currently a case before the courts, and so the matter will be dealt with more fully at that time. Mr.

Ashton : Then maybe as a supplementary, I will ask a question of the Premier-since obviously nothing has been done since 1997- whether the First Minister will investigate the fact that two individuals, John McCaim [phonetic] and Frank Ramdeen, have indicated that Mr. Barrett stated, and I quote: my friend Charlie Birt will get me the liquor licence, prior to the sale of the Cross Lake inn in 1994. Will he investigate the very serious accusations- *

(1350) Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the members opposite usually bring information of questionable quality to the House, and that matter, of course, that allegation, of course, is being investigated in the course of a court action at the current time. I would say to him that the first question of credibility is regarding that statement since Mr. Birt was not even the chairman of the Liquor Commission at the time when the application was approved. Mr.

Ashton: As a final supplementary, I am wondering when the First Minister will stop the same kind of approach he initially used on the vote-splitting scandal, questioning our integrity and credibility, and recognize that Mr. Birt was indeed the chair of the board- An Honourable Member:

Preamble. Madam Speaker: Order, please. -

April 20, I999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 441 Mr. Ashton : I began my question with "when," Madam Speaker. That is a question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Thompson please pose his question now. Mr. Ashton : Madam Speaker, my question was when the First Minister will stop attacking the credibility of information-we have two witnesses in this case-and when he will conduct an investigation in the fact that Mr. Birt was indeed the chair at the time this took place, and his political friends, Mr.

Barrett gained because of the result of being granted a liquor licence that has made them significantly more wealthy. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind all honourable members that supplementary questions (

a) require no

preamble and (

b) should consist of a single question. Mr. Filmon: As the minister has indicated, that matter and those all egations have been challenged and are going to be addressed in a court action that is currently underway. Interlake Regional Health Authority Board Membership-Cubby Barrett Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, Justice Monnin named a Mr. Roland Cubby Barrett as a major participant in the vote-rigging plot of I995. The Premier since promised that members of the PC Party who were involved in the plo t would not hold any official positions in any party or government boards.

I want to ask the Premier: will he tell us why Mr. Cubby Barrett is still on the advisory council to the Interlake Regional Health Authority? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I am informed that we do not appoint the advisory councils; we appoint the regional health authorities. Board Membership-Eddy Trachuk Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): As the health authority board members are government appointees plus funded with taxpayers' money, I want to ask the Premier: in the inquiry Mr.

Eddy Trachuk, the official Conservative candidate, was also named as a major participant, and I want to know why he is still on this advisory council. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member opposite obviously has not listened to the answers, because the answer to the second question is the same as the answer to the first question. Manitoba Progressive Conservatives Membership-Cubby Barrett Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, these advisory council members are paid a per diem- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question without

preamble. * (1 355) Mr. Clif Evans: Does Mr. Cubby Barrett continue to be a lifetime honorary member of the PC Party, and if he is, how can Manitobans believe the Premier when he has sternly expressed that no one will be part of his party or his team in the future? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I think this probably falls in the category of bottom feeding. If the member opposite, if this is the best that he has to offer, he must really feel the heat from Betty Green in Interlake. Kidney Dialysis Out-of-Province Treatment Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

Back on October II of '95- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am having difficulty hearing the honourable member for Inkster. Mr. Lamoureux: As I was saying, back on October II of I995, the Liberal Party brought to

442 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 99 the attention of this Chamber the issue of dialysis where we had individuals from Winnipeg being brought outside of Winnipeg at quite a great expense because they were not able to get dialysis here within Winnipeg. Again yesterday, Madam Speaker, we see on one of the media reports that we still have individuals leaving Winnipeg in order to get dialysis treatment.

What I am asking the Minister of Health is: is it today accepted practice for individuals requiring dialysis that they do have to leave Winnipeg on occasion, or will the minister finally acknowledge that there is a problem in this area? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we certainly have been expanding our dialysis capabilities right across Manitoba. I believe the community of Ashern recently received additional support for providing dialysis services.

I think what is very important-and I do not know if the member for Inkster had an opportunity to see in the information that was provided on Friday with the 19 99 capital program, but if he gets an opportunity to look at the

summary of all the initiatives, he will see the category referred to as dialysis and what it ref ers to: expanding dialysis sites as recommended by the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, provincial dialysis program with exact sites and project scope to be finalized. A community-based site in Winnipeg and several rural sites will be announced after further discussions with the RHAs, and so on. There has been $5 million allocated in this capital program to provide enhancement to the very services that he asks about.

So certainly we have expanded the dialysis capabilities in Manitoba, and there are significant additional resources dedicated to continue that very important expansion. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the Liberal Party brought this issue up a long time ago, and my question to the Minister of Health is: can the minister indicate to us what are the costs of this government's inaction on this particular issue, both the human cost and the financial cost of this government's inability to provide the needed services here in the city of Winnipeg? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I indicate to this member that I would acknowledge that he has brought this issue to this House on previous occasions. Certainly, as a result of not only information that he has brought forward but people in our health care system, people who participate in our regional health authorities and so on, we have continually expanded the opportunity for dialysis services across Manitoba.

We are comm itted to continue that expansion, and that is why our 19 99 capital program, just recently announced, includes an additional $5 million not only for enhancements here in the city of Winnipeg but for the provision of dialysis services at additional sites throughout rural Manitoba as well. Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the minister is: as we continue, then, to wait for yet another capital commitment from this government, what in the short term is going to be done for these individuals that require dialysis? Is there any short-term hope coming for these individuals? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I do not have the information right at my fingertips in terms of the expansions that have been done over the course of the last short period of time. I will certainly · undertake to provide that detailed information to the member for Inkster because there has been an expansion of dialysis services in Manitoba. Certainly the community of Ashern is one community that comes to mind.

But, more importantly, to continue to enhance the provision of these very important services, we have dedicated an additional $5 million, and we will be coming forward shortly with the communities that that service will be expanded to. So I would think he would be acknow ledging that he has been one part of people who have brought an issue to our attention. We have taken appropriate action, and we are continuing to expand and provide additional dialysis services right throughout Manitoba. Churchill Regional Health Authority Board Membership Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister of Health. The regional health authority set up by this government has been unsuccessful on several fronts. In Churchill, for an example, the RHA there has failed to maintain a 25-year agreement with the Keewatin district. Now, as a

April 20, 1999 LEGISLA TIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 443 result, a full year before Nunavut came into creation, the contract was cancelled and one board member from Winnipeg has yet to attend a single board meeting in person in Churchill. I would like to ask the minister if any appointments to the board will be made to better reflect the interests of Churchill and the outlying areas. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Spea ker, we continue to look at being sure we have appropriate representation on all of our RHA boards, and we will continue to do that with the Churchill RHA .

I believe that we also solicit names from what was the Northwest Territories and now the two territories, and we also look for contribution and names from those regions to be sure that we do get appropriate representation and opportunities to deal with all issues relative to the Churchill RHA. *

(1400) Central Manitoba Regional Health Authority Board Membership--Aboriginals Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): . I would like to move from Churchill to Portage Ia Prairie, to the central Manitoba region. I would like to ask the minister how many members of that board on the central health authority are aboriginal. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I do not have that information with me here this afternoon, but I will certainly undertake to provide that information to the member opposite. Mr.

Robinson: Madam Speaker, I would like to table a press clipping from the Portage Ia Prairie Daily Graphic of March 25 indicating that aboriginal health was being targeted. As well, I would like to table a letter dated March 24 from the Minister of Health to Mr. Chris Beaulieu and also a letter from Mr. Chris Beaulieu to the Minister of Health. I would like to ask the minister why no aboriginal person appointed to that board last month was nominated or in fact appointed to the board when the board said it wanted to concentrate on aboriginal issues at the same time to appoint an aboriginal person to the board. Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have certainly undertaken to the member opposite to look into the issue. The majority of members on RHA boards, I think as he is well aware, come as a result of nominations where either an individual I believe can self-nominate or they can be nominated by some other individual who thinks that person should serve on an RHA. That is the majority of appointments.

I believe certainly there are some ministerial appointments, but the majority of the appointments come as a result of nominations coming from the communities themselves, which is the most appropriate way to be sure that we get people who either themselves declare they want to serve on a board or, of course, somebody is recommending them, having talked to them about their will ingness to contribute.

We certainly want people who are going to participate and be active participants in our regional health authorities to be absolutely certain we get the best recommendations, the best actions taken by those boards right across Manitoba. Mr. Robinson: A new question, Madam Speaker. Perhaps the minister did not under stand my question. I was quite vague. Simply, what I was pointing out was that Mr.

Beaulieu was in fact nominated to the central health authority in Portage Ia Prairie; however, his nomination was not taken seriously, and from the things that I have been told, there is in fact no aboriginal representation on the board of the central health authority. My question to the Minister of Health is: when will he take the issue of aboriginal representation on these health authorities seriously? Mr.

Stefanson: Again, on this total issue that the member is asking about, aboriginal representation on the RHA boards, certainly, as I have already indicated to him, I will undertake to provide him with that information. We also do have a situation that I have indicated is based on people either self nominating or being nominated by other

444 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 99 individuals. Fortunately, in almost all cases we do get more names than there are vacant, open positions. Again, I think that is positive, that that is healthy, that we do have people prepared to either step forward and put their own name forward or are willing to have their name put forward by somebody on their behalf. That is certainly exactly what we want to see taking place right across Manitoba with all of our RHAs.

In terms of the issue of aboriginal representation on RHA boards in total and the specific question about both Churchill and more specifically now central, I will get back to the member, Madam Speaker. Headingley Correctional Institute Temporary Unit Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister of Justice. Due to dangerous and record prison overcrowding, taxpayers will be on the hook for one and a quarter million dolla rs to build a one year temporary, portable, prefab jail unit at Headingley.

My question to the minister is this: would the minister admit that the safety threat and this cost is due to the government's failure to listen to Ted Hughes who two and a half years ago said that a permanent unit was, and I quote, imperative and should be constructed and opened at the earliest possible date, to which this government joined in with a high-profile, damage-control emergency press conference in 19 96 announcing construction? It did not follow through on its promise. Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, I am glad to see that the member finally realizes that we do need secure facilities as opposed to year after year standing up and asking whether we will implement policies that create open-door prisons in this province. It is a suggestion that I have consistently and our caucus has consistently rejected. We in fact do believe in secure prisons for dangerous, violent offenders. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would the minister get a grip on reality, deal with the problem and admit that the government's prefab unit, this slap-dash improvisation to make up for a broken promise, is going to cost taxpayers and is going to cost Manitobans in terms of safety, and they have just put off that announcement for two and a half years for election season, Madam Speaker? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, the member, of course, understands that we are building a maximum security unit in the Headingley jail, and indeed we abandoned plans to create a less secure unit in favour of a medium security unit.

Those beds are, in fact, the result of long discussions not only with people knowledgeable in the field but also with the union and the guards whom the union represent. I must say that we have had very productive discussions with the union in respect of the development of secure facilities at Headingley jail and indeed throughout the province. If this member would care to take a look at what in fact we have been doing and how we have been doing, I think he would in fact agree that we have been proceeding on a timely fashion. Mr.

Mackintosh: If timely is two and a half years on, Madam Speaker, would this minister, who has heard that this prefab unit is being called "the wood shack" by correctional officers, admit that he has not learned anything from the tragedy at Wasagamack three weeks ago where an 18 -year-old died when there was a fire at a wooden jail, or even from the story of the three little pigs? Why is he building a wooden jail at the site of the worst prison riot in Manitoba history? Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, the member has sunk to a level of quoting nursery rhymes and name calling. I would prefer to deal with the issues.

One of the things that I am concerned and I know that Manitobans are concerned about are issues of public safety. In order to have secure facilities, it is also very important to consult with the union and the guards to ensure that they work in safe conditions. I know that if the guards have safe working conditions, the public generally is protected. So, Madam Speaker, I am committed to the issue of public safety, which includes guard safety, and we will continue to develop very

April 20, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 445 carefully our strategy of keeping violent prisoners in prison. Public Housing Tenant Management Policy Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I have written to the Minister of Housing a number of times, and I have asked the minister a number of times in Estimates to provide us with Manitoba Housing's policy on tenant management. I have received no such documents, but I have conducted research in other provinces in Canada and have found that throughout Canada there are specific policies and procedures in place to move to tenant management.

I want to now ask the Minister of Housing if he will commit to providing to this House a policy and a procedure for moving to tenant management for Manitoba Housing, and will it include how you are going to communicate this inform�tion to tenants in Manitoba Housing properties. Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): I thank the member for Radisson for this question because I believe that there is a will ingness, in conversations with her before, thai tenant managed responsibilities of public housing is a :ery, very important aspect of bringing stability mto the tenants complexes, having the tenants t�e :esponsibility for the management, the d1re�t10n and some of the involvement that they feel Is best for their associations.

It is something that we have been moving towards on a gradual basis because it needs a lot of involvement with the tenants associations, and we work with mature tenants associations so that th�r� is a sense of confidence that they build up w1thm themselves as they deal with a lot of the delegated authorities that were working with them. As for a rigid and a formal policy that the member is asking for, we are working towards the policy with the tenants to develop it, and that seems to be the best result for them because the tenants associations themselves are asking for that type of involvement. * (1410 ) Ms.

Cerilli: What I am asking for this government is to do what other governments across the country are doing and put your policy in writing so that the public and tenants in your properties can understand what you are doing. I want to table for the minister a copy of the Aitkins Housing Co-operative conversion pla n submitted by Alexandra Park Residents Association in Toronto and three copies of the executive

summary for the minister. I want to ask him: will you ensure that your tenant management policy will have a way that all the tenants will have input and will be informed of tenant management requirements prior to moving to tenant management in the province? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, a lot of what the member is talking about is exactly what we are trying to accomplish with working with the tenants associations. The tenants associations themselves have requested that we work in co operation with them in developing guidelines and procedures for them.

We do not believe that it should be all directed primarily by government policies or government directions. We believe that we should be working with the tenants associations, building upon a procedure so that there is a comfort level for not only them to take over the management of their associations, but they will have the confidence of the decision making that they come to through the co-operation between our department and the tenants associations.

It is a development between the two parties, and we believe that is the best way to come to any type of under standing for the delegation for them to become the decision makers. Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask the minister finally if he has a business pla n prepared for movement to tenant management for properties in Manitoba particularly at Gilbert Park in the northwest end of the city, and if he will put that document into the House here or provide it to us after Question Period. Mr.

Reimer: The association that the member is ref erring to, the Gilbert Park Tenants Association, is something that myself and the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) have been working v_ery, very closely with in trying to develop with that community. The member for

446 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 99 Inkster has always been very, very helpful and very supportive of trying to work with the tenants association in that particular complex. This is one of the areas where we feel that we can make some very positive inroads with that tenants association. In fact, just recently, I believe it was yesterday that they had an election of new of ficers in that tenants association.

I look very, very favourably upon working with this new tenants association to try to develop this further involvement with the tenants in their building, and I know that the member for Inkster will join me in trying to work with these people to get a better understanding. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. On June 18 I ruled on a point of order respecting language used by the honourable First Minister in responding to the question and asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to withdraw the comments in question.

A point of order was raised by the opposition House leader about the content of the withdrawal. I took the matter under advisement in order to examine the words spoken by the Premier and to consult the authorities. Hansard shows that the Premier said, and I quote: "I recognize that, although things may be true, they can also be unparliamentary, and so I accept your admonition and I withdraw the comments." I have carefully consulted the authorities and reviewed Hansard and past precedents. The opposition House leader did have a point of order.

Parliamentary practice, borne out by Manitoba Speakers' rulings, is that withdrawal of words must be unqualified or unconditional and explanations are not required. I would therefore ask the honourable First Minister to make an unqualified withdrawal. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I am happy to make an unqualified withdrawal, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable First Minister. On April 6, 19 99, the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), the House leader of the official opposition, rose on a matter of privilege, claiming that the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) had deliberately misled the House.

I thank all honourable members for their advice to the Chair on the matter. The two tests for a matter of privilege are (

I) was the matter raised at the earliest opportunity, and (2) is there sufficient evidence that the privileges of the House have been breached to warrant putting the matter to the House. With respect to the first test, the honourable member did raise his matter at the earliest opportunity. With respect to whether the member has made a prima facie case, I would refer members first to Manitoba precedents as established by rulings of Spea kers Walding and Phillips.

These rulings cl early express that a deliberate misleading of the House requires an intent to· mislead and/or knowledge that the statement would mislead. Also, Speakers Walding, Phillips and Rocan have ruled that when one member charges that another member has deliberately misled the House, the member making the charge must furnish proof of intent. In the parliamentary authority, Parliamentary Privilege in Ca nada, Joseph Maingot sustains this opinion.

On page 224 he states that an admission that a member of the House was intentionally misled would be necessary to establish a prima facie case of a matter of privilege. Therefore, short of a member acknow ledging to the House that she or he deliberately and with intent set out to mislead, it is virtually impossible to prove that a member deliberately misled the House. Citation 494 of Beauchesne, quoted in rulings of past Manitoba Speakers, states that statements by members respecting themselves and particularly within their own knowledge must be accepted.

Although the honourable member for Thompson may have a grievance or a complaint against the First Minister, I must rule that he has

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 447 not established a prima facie case of privilege and rule his motion out of order. *

(1420) Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I challenge your ruling. Voice Vote Madam Speaker: Order, please. The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please say yea. Some Honou rable Members: Yea. Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honou rable Members: Nay. Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The question before the House is shall the ruling of the chair be sustained. Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Driedger (Steinbach), Dyck, Enns, Faurschou, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, McAlpine, McCrae, Mcintosh, Mitchelson, Newman, Penner, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliffe, Reimer, Render, Rocan, Stefanson, Sveinson, Toews, Tweed, Vodrey.

Nays Ashton, Barrett, Cerilli, Dewar, Doer, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlake), Friesen, Hickes, Jennissen, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lathlin, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 28, Nays 22. Madam Speaker: The motion is accordingly carried. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Health Care Facilities-Food Services Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I would like people to picture today what happens to, for example, a single pea on its journey from the farm to the table under the frozen food system because I think, if you see its twisted journey, you will see why it is such an issue for many of the patients. That pea is picked. It is then shipped off. It is then blanched for a first time and it is frozen. Now you might think that is pretty well the end of it, Madam Speaker. But then it is, in the case of Deer Lodge, shipped off cooked to Deer Lodge. It is then recooked. It is taken back to the distribution centre.

It is then portioned out, and then it is transferred to the other facilities. Now is that the end of it? No, it is not the end of the journey for our little pea, because it gets reheated one more time and then it gets taken out on the plates to the patients. Now I feel sorry for our poor little pea in this picture, because many of these peas end up going from the plates right into the garbage because they are, quite frankly, inedible.

What I would recommend to the minister tonight, I want him to go home-it is a bit early in the growing season to pick peas-but if he can get some fresh peas at a market, I want him to do this at home. I want him to blanche it, freeze it, bring it to work with him, put it in his fridge, take it back to his home. I want him then to apportion it out, bring it back to the Legislature, stick it in a microwave, serve it to-well, if you get enough peas-the rest of the caucus and see whether he would like to eat that. In the end, let us have our peas go fresh to the table, and we will get much better reception

448 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, I999 for our poor little pea. They might even get eaten by the patients. Thank you. Young Offenders Act Panel Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, just one slight comment-and I know this is not a debate-but I would like to say to Mr. Ashton he missed the pea story entirely. Last month I had the honour of chairing a government panel asking Manitobans for their ideas on how to improve the Young Offenders Act.

Our panel held meetings in Winnipeg, Portage Ia Prairie, Dominion City, Brandon, Swan River and Thompson, and I was impressed with the number of Manitobans who turned out at each of these meetings. They came very prepared to express their ideas and views on the current legislation and the changes that the federal government should make as it revises the Young Offenders Act. I also wrote to my constituents and asked for their input on the provincial government's recommendations for improving the Young Offenders Act, and I have received a great many responses from the people of the constituency of Emerson.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of those who contributed their ideas, either in writing or by attending one of the town meetings. Many individuals shared very personal experiences with our panel, and we appreciate their openness and their frankness. What our work with the panel demonstrated to me is that the citizens of our province are very interested in the actions of governments and appreciate the opportunity to have direct input into the legislative process.

We are currently in the process of writing the report as we have received all the presentations, and it will show how important the issue of youth crime is to Manitobans. Any changes made to the Young Offenders Act will have a direct impact on our citizens, and I hope that the federal government will take the opinions of our people of Manitoba into consideration in their efforts to improve the Young Offenders Act. We in the province of Manitoba truly support many of the changes that Manitobans recommended to our panel, and those views will be voiced to the federal minister. * (14 30) Mistik Creek Camping Site Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, northern Manitoba is blessed with many ideal recreational settings. Sadly, the steady increase in fish licence fees and park fees by the provincial government, along with their bungled park reservation booking program, have for some people been a deterrent to using the parks. As well, many have found that, despite the increased revenues to the government, park maintenance is often cut back. Northern Manitoba is considered to be one of the best fishing areas in North America, if not the world.

We have a number of world-class fishing lodges and our canoeing, hiking, camping facilities are second to none in this country. This is true almost everywhere in the North but especially so in the Snow Lake and the Flin Flon regions. One of the most beautiful picnic sites was located at Mistik Creek along Highway No. I 0. It was w�ll known and has been well known for many years as a great pla ce for family gatherings, for picnics, for people to catch suckers in the spring, and so on.

Regrettably, as part of the routine review of what more cuts could be made by the province, the Mistik Creek site was closed to the public last year with very little consultation. Now it is impossible to park there. People have to park along Highway No. I 0, and it is very narrow and very dangerous there. We find this to be a most regrettable move, and it is just one more example of the disdain that northerners feel this government aims at them. We seem to pay more, and we seem to get less every year. Northern Manitobans are fed up with this state of affairs, Madam Speaker. Stevenson Aviation Training Centre Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Speaker, Friday last I had the pl easure of being at Stevenson Aviation Technical Training Centre, located at Southport in the constituency of Portage Ia Prairie. Stevenson Aviation was the proud recipient of this government's additional funding as announced by the Minister -

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 449 of Education and Training (Mr. McCrae) in the amount of $280,000. This funding announce ment will go towards the purchase of two new aircraft, one being the 1970 Mitsubishi MU2G, a fixed-wing aircraft, as well as a helicopter for the training of apprentices in the aircraft maintenance engineering program. Indeed, Stevenson Aviation is a success story. When located in Southport, south of Portage la Prairie, in 1992, Stevenson Aviation had less than 20 students.

Today I am proud to say there are more than 100 students attending Stevenson Aviation, coming from all areas of our nation, from B.C. to Newfoundland, and our newest student arrived just two weeks ago from Nunavut. This particular funding which was announced last Friday involves partnership with Manitoba's aerospace human resource co ordination committee, so truly is a partnership with industry. Stevenson Aviation is an entity which has enhanced our aerospace industry here in Manitoba, and I am very proud to say Stevenson Aviation is located in our constituency of Portage la Prairie. Thank you.

All-Party Resolutions Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I just want to make a special note today that in fact yesterday inside the Chamber all parties supported the resolution, which is to be commended.

It was for a great cause, that being volunteers from one corner of the province to the next, and it is interesting on that very same day in Question Period I had asked the Premier on, I believe, an equally important issue in trying to garner support for an all-party resolution in support of Manitoba Hydro remaining as a public Crown corporation and was quite disappointed that the Premier did not understand the benefits of passing a resolution of this nature.

I think that there is a great deal of merit where we put things in perspective with the resolution that we passed yesterday in private members' hour and the resolution that was being suggested of the government to pass earlier that day that there is indeed a great deal of merit for the government to acknowledge the importance and to allow for a passage of a resolution that would give strength to the public corporation of Manitoba Hydro. It is with disappointment that I do not see the government and its members recognizing the importance of a resolution of that nature, but I am an eternal optimist.

I hope that the government will in fact reconsider at some point in time the benefits of giving this sort of an endorsation from all members of this Chamber. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, if you could call Bill 2. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 2- The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on second reading of Bill 2, The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les circonscriptions electorale), standing in the name of the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), who has 20 minutes remaining. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I wish to speak now about what we may call the political formula, the justification, legitimation by which the rule of the few can be accepted by the many. We talk about credenda of politics, the things that have to be believed by the people, by the masses, if they are to submit to the rule of the government by the few.

One of these credenda of politics is the political formula which justifies the claim of those few in government to rule over the masses, over the many, over the people. In the days of absolutism, monarchies and kingdoms, the political formula was vox regni est vox Dei, the voice of the king is the voice of God. That was generally accepted by everyone, and we call it the divine right of kings. That political formula did not change for so many centuries, until after three violent revolutions, the American Revolution, the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution.

450 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 *

(1440) The formula now has changed into vox populi, vox Dei, the voice of the people is the voice of God. Any true democrats have to subscribe to this view that the people, when they speak collectively, speak the divine with how they shall be governed. Another credenda, another example of credenda is the belief among civilized people all over the world that the highest expression of leadership is the government. The government is the highest expression of human leadership in society. That is why we should logically infer from this statement that no government should be sued in its own court without its consent.

Now, the transition from the belief that the voice of the king is the voice of God to the now orthodox belief that the voice of the people is the voice of God illustrates the paradox of stability and change in our society. The paradox of stability and change, we can state briefly: the more things change, the more things seem to stay the same. If the organized, institutionalized political community of the people is to endure, the process of change should take place in the context of stability, in its own time, so that change may occur again.

King Solomon said: One generation passeth, another generation cometh, but the earth abideth forever. The sun also ariseth and the sun goeth down, and then hasteth back where it arose. The wind goeth toward the south and returneth toward the north then whirleth about continually according to its circuits. All the rivers flow into the sea, but the sea is not full, and the water ultimately returneth where the water arose. Things that are to be shall be, and what has been done, it shall be done. There is nothing new under the sun.

Because we operate on the basis of incomplete knowledge of everything around us, none knoweth anything complete. We all operate on the basis of incomplete information. That is why man also knoweth not his time, as the fish that are caught in an evil net, as the birds that are caught in the snare, so are the sons of man ensnared in an evil time when it suddenly falls upon them. Why must human laws and institutions change in the context of a framework of stability for the entire society? Thomas Jefferson stated that Jaws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind.

As the human mind becomes developed, more enlightened, new discoveries are made, new truths are discovered, manners and opinions are changed, circumstances change, institution must advance also to keep pace with the times. This is what we are doing when we are amending institutional arrangement in our society such as this bill before us.

The persistence and stability of the political order which we have defined as the organized political community of people depends upon this expressed or implied consensus of the governed collectively to accept the rule of government, but this consensus is based on a core system of shared beliefs and values of the people. Underlying that fundamental framework of nonnative rules, we observe as members of the political system those rules that are promulgated by our chosen representatives that are according to the system to rule over us.

But once this consensus, this agreement, this consent of the governed to obey is undermined, once this is weakened by all the shenanigans and mischievous trickeries and stratagems, which may or may not be legal but certainly morally bankrupt, unless a substitute such as the use of force is easily provided, the existing political arrangement of things breaks down. The structure of authority tumbles to the ground until such time as a new political organization is established with or without an interregnum period.

Such a situation happened during the French Revolution of 1789 when the ancient regime collapsed, and then the Reign of Terror followed without any order before the civil authority was able to establish itself. One type of change that is orderly and peaceful is the one that we are witnessing in civilized democratic society.

This is the change of political and administrative personnel occupying positions in existing structure of authority in government prevalent in presidential or parliamentary types of government when a political party succeeds in a general election in securing a plurality or a majority of the support of the electorate, or, when a coalition of political parties in a multiparty system were able to form a coalition government. -

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 45 1 We can see now that whoever becomes the majority party in government, the majority party in power is only there for the temporary duration during their tenure, and they are supposed to be stewards of the interests of everyone, the interests of all the people. They are trustees of the affairs, the future, present, destiny of all the people in the political system. You can imagine an employer who hires a steward to take care of his affairs.

That is the government being hired by the people to take care of the affairs of the people. * (1 450) There is a parable of the unjust steward so written in the Good Book. There is an employer, a rich man who hired a steward who was a manageriaL accountant, lawyer kind of type to handle the employer's affairs, but soon a rumour went around that this steward was thoroughly dishonest. So, the employer called him and said: What is this I hear about you stealing from me? Give an account of your stewardship or you may no longer be a steward. The steward said to himself: What shall I do?

If I am through here as a steward, I am not able to dig ditches, and I am too proud to beg. Aha, I know exa �tly what to do. When I am out of the stewardship, I will have plenty of friends who will take care of me when I have lost my stewardship. So the steward invited each one of the debtors to his employer to discuss matters. He asked the first debtor: how much do you owe my employer? The debtor replied: 10 0 gallons of olive oil according to my contract which I signed. The steward said: tear up the contract, write another contract for 50. The steward asked the second debtor: how much do you owe him?

The second debtor answered: 10 0 bushels of wheat. The steward said: here is your contract. Replace it with 80 bushels of wheat. The principal, the employer, had to admire the unjust stewards for being so shrewd, for it is true that the citizens of this world are more clever in being dishonest than the good and God fearing ones. But shall I tell you to act the way they do, to buy friendship through cheating? Will such behaviour ensure your entry into the everlasting home in heaven? Of course not.

He who is faithful in that which is the least is faithful also in that which is max, for unless you are honest in small matters, you would not be honest in large ones. If you cheat even a little, you would not be honest with greater responsibilities, and if you are untrustworthy in worldly wealth, who will trust you with the true riches in heaven? If you are not faithful with other people's money, why should you be entrusted with money of your own? No public servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other or else he will hold to the one and despise the other.

No public servant can serve both God and Mammon. We cannot, as public people, serve both the interests of the people, whose collective voice we recognize as the voice of God, and at the same time the interests of the lords of money, who are only interested in themselves. The word "Mammon" is an Aramaic word. It means riches. St. Augustine speaks about this when he talks about the idol of what is false and wicked. That is the Mammon. If anyone worships riches, it would be extremely difficult for him or her to do ethical, moral righteousness, because there can be no two masters, only one or the other.

What shall we do then? We have heard the saying, lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth where moth and rust doth corrupt and where thieves break through and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt and where thieves do not break through nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Do they want to accumulate the wealth, the material things that come from the public purse, or do we want to accumulate the dignity and respectability from the people whom we serve? That is up for us to choose.

Now, I wish to focus on the relationship between authority to govern and morality, the relationship between the moral character of those who govern. I will borrow from an old master, and his name is Confucius. He is not a religious leader. He does not promise heaven or anything. He just dwells on the ethical morality of the ruling class in his society.

452 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 When asked about pol itical rulers, the great master said: is the ruler not a philosopher who, though he be unrecognized, cherishes no resentment? What you do not wish done for yourself, do not do unto others. Remember, this is the same golden rule into which we have been inculcated. Do not do unto others what you do not want others to do unto you. Positively put, do unto others what you want others to do to you. That is the teaching of the great master in that society about 5,000 years ago, even before the birth of Christ.

The two basic assumptions that permeate this Confucian ethics of the public service, the so-called Mandarin: the first assumption is that the common people are by nature because of their material needs in this world, greedy, that they are jealous, that they are lustful of things. The second assumption is that therefore the rulers have the moral obl igation to inculcate into people's character whatever virtues define a good way of life in their own society by looking into the classics of antiquity until such moral values are morally internalized and become the habit and heart of the common people.

When asked how one would improve one's own character, Confucius answered as follows: If one puts duty first and success after, will not that improve one's own character of the ruler? If one attacks one's own failings, instead of the failings of others, will that not remedy our personal faults? How does the moral character of those who govern become inured to the general benefit of all the people in the political community? He continued: If there is righteousness in the heart, there will be beauty in personal character. If there is beauty in personal character, there will be harmony in the home.

If there be harmony in the home, there will be order in the nation. If there is order in the nation, there will be peace in the world. So it is a whirlpool of goodness: goodness that starts from the individual goes to the member's family, the home; it goes to the community; it goes to the nation; and from the nation it goes to the entire world. That is the basis of civility and morality in society. May I summarize, Madam Speaker, in a few statements. The effective powers of government derive from the consent of the governed.

The governed gave their consent because they believe that people in government will work for their own collective interest. As soon as the people in government work for selfish interests or the interests of the few, they lost legitimacy to govern, and it is the right of the people to change their government. That is what we are having now. This is our system. Thank you. * (1 500) Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, I would be very happy to put a few words on record regarding The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act, Bill 2.

I would like to put a few words on the record regarding the importance of the act and the position that this party has taken in supporting it, and why, despite our support, we still have some real concerns about that particular act. I was before the commission, Madam Speaker, I believe it was in The Pas last September, if my memory serves me correctly, and I will be making some of the arguments that I was making before the commission then.

I want to join others in thanking the commission members for their effort, for their concern, for travelling all over Manitoba, including northern Manitoba, although we would have wished they had spent more time in some of the aboriginal communities, but we do want to thank them for their hard work.

We want to thank them for their ethical approach to the problem of equitably dividing the province in such a way that we have representation by population, but allowing for the variation that does exist and that we need to consider as well, because it is not merely a housekeeping item, so many bodies in the province divided by 57, a lot of other factors come into play. Particularly for northern MLAs, it would be the factor of travelling and adequately representing northern people. The basic premise of the act is, I think, beyond debate. We certainly accept that and we support that.

We support the independence of the commission and we would never, ever want to go back to a process that would allow for jerrymandering, which happened quite often in the past. I remember coming from Saskat chewan, under the Liberal regime of Ross Thatcher how one particular constituency in

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 453 which I happened to be a teacher at the time changed from a square constituency, square in the sense of shape, four boundaries, to a constituency that ended up having 16 boundaries, and I cannot and my party does not support those kinds of antics. I feel the North deserves five ridings. I have heard all the arguments why it should not, and I am sympathetic to some of the arguments and I am somewhat disappointed in the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), and I will quote the member for Inkster who said on April 19 in this Assembly.

He believes in the one-vote, one member system. He says I am sympathetic to the 25 percent and I know our party is sympathetic to the 25 percent. I would not personally support that it should be instituted, that it should be "shall be" 25 percent, I could not support that. I could see Elections Manitoba giving some guidance to be taking that into consideration along with the 10 percent. I do not believe that it should be "shall." I think that it would be a mistake.

I think, if I understand what the member for Inkster is saying, that he wants to go t)ack to a rigid system where we have X number for population divided by 57 and that is where we should go, and that is not acceptable to northerners. It simply does not work. Madam Speaker, 25 percent variance was built into the system and some would argue that even that is not enough because when you take a look at representing your constituents, you cannot avoid the fact that for northern MLAs who want to do the same job that southern MLAs can do, travel becomes an extremely important factor.

I merely point out that for me to drive to Lynn Lake, which is one of the communities that I represent, that is over 1, 000 kilometres. That would be, on that particular road, at least 11 or 12 hours of driving. If I want to do that in 10 hours at 10 0 kilometres an hour, I would be without a muffler, a windshield and brakes and possibly my life. An Honourable Member: Can you claim it Autopac will pay-because it is a government road? Mr. Jennissen: Yes, the honourable member makes a good point.

Similarly when I go to Flin Flon, which is the largest of my communities, to drive it would take, if you stay within the speed limits, eight hours. If you drive like some honourable members drive, you might do it in seven hours. But nonetheless, it is roughly 800 kilometres. If I take an airplane which is a little faster but the service has been, shall we say, not frequent, although that is changing in the near future apparently for a little while, that plane ticket still costs me $800.36. That is a lot of money. It is not just a cost factor.

It is servicing the people, being accessible to the people of the North. If I want to go to Pukatawagan, what do I have to do? The honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) would understand. I have to drive very early from Cranberry Portage, to The Pas, Grace Lake Airport, and I think that plane leaves, what, at seven in the morning? An Honourable Member: Seven-thirty. Mr. Jennissen: Seven-thirty in the morning, fly to Pukatawagan, and then hope that I can do whatever needs to be done in Pukatawagan Mathias Colomb First Nation that day and get out on the evening flight, but it may not be possible.

Now, members opposite must realize, specifically city members, that for them they can walk across their constituency, what, in half an hour? Twenty minutes? An Honourable Member: Walk? Mr. Jennissen: Well, for those that do walk, the ones that look slim and trim. Us northerners do not walk a lot. I just want to stress that the 25 percent variation is there for a very good reason. Travel is certainly one of those reasons and there is another reason. The other reason is that we think that the popula tion does not really reflect what the census figures tell us.

I think that people believe that in some aboriginal communities on some of the reserves there might me underrepresentation by 15 or more percent, perhaps even higher. In fact, we know that the aboriginal people are in a baby boom situation,

454 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 so we know the population is increasing. Therefore, I might ask myself, if that is the case and as some of the honourable members opposite say mining is booming in my constituency, then I should have a population increase over 1988. The sad fact is, Madam Speaker, I do not; a 20.8 percent decrease. So either the mining is going down, or there are not aboriginal babies being born as they say they are. Something does not quite add up.

What I think is happening is that the aboriginal population is being undercounted as is deliberately done when it comes to employment figures. The province merely ignores the fact that we have in some places like Tadoule Lake and Lac Brochet, 90-plus percent unemploy ment, or in the case of the Opaskwayak Nation, perhaps around the 60 percent level. The government ignores those facts. So figures themselves, Madam Spea ker, only tell part of the story. What we want to do is we want to be able to represent our people as efficiently and as well as we can, as capably as we can.

In order to do that, I do not see any sense in making the areas larger. For example, I feel sorry for my honourable collea gue, the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) who has to represent people in an area that must be roughly a third if not a quarter of Manitoba. That is a huge area, and many of those towns and many of those villa ges are not drive-in towns or villages. You have to fly in. The cost and the time are incredible, as I mentioned bef ore.

I could also add that if I want to go to some of my northern communities such as Brochet or Lac Brochet or Tadoule Lake, I have to then first drive to Thompson and catch a scheduled flight to one of those communities. I might not get out the same day. I might have to get out the next day, if the weather is okay. Talking about northern weather, I am sure that the honourable Minister of Northern Affairs knows what weather is like. We were in South Indian Lake the other day, and it is not unusual for us to be caught in bl izzards.

I was caught in one last year, September 16 , when the MP Bev Desjarlais and I went to visit Lac Brochet and Tadoule Lake. We ran into a blizzard-or flew into a blizzard would be a better word-the other day in South Indian Lake. It is only by the skill of good pilots that, you know, we seem to have trouble-free landings all the time. Sometimes we are not as lucky; so a lot of hazards involved with travelling in northern Manitoba. That has to be taken into consideration, Madam Speaker.

It is extremely difficult for one person-and I do not care which particula r political party it is, but for one person to represent an area as big as Rupertsland or an area as big as Flin Flon or Thompson or The Pas, although The Pas and Thompson are somewhat, I believe, more manageable. I should not be speaking for my honourable collea gues. There are real concerns in travel and in being able to give fair and honest representation to the people of that region. The variations that exist, the variations of 25 percent, are there for a reason.

There is another reason, Madam Speaker, that we do not like to talk about, and that is that this is a high-need area. Some of the more prosperous parts of our province, I am not saying they deserve less representation, but if you live in an area and I am suggesting some of the very northern communities are such areas where unemploy ment is ·up to 90 percent, you know you are going to have social problems.

You know that as soon as you see those figures, when people do not have a job, when there is no work to do, when the government appears to be less than enthusiastic about developing that region whether it is tourism or whether it is mining, whatever; diversification in what once were booming mining towns. But in the far northern communities, as I said before, Madam Speaker, great unemploy ment, and great social problems. Our young people are very often despondent and without hope. Suicide is a serious problem. So is dependency on drugs and alcohol . Those are serious issues we have to wrestle with.

I am not suggesting other members do not deal with those issues or do not face them, but I wonder if they face them to the same extent, to the same tragic reality level as I have to and some of my honourable members have to in northern Manitoba. So that is the reason why that 25 percent variation was there. That is the reason why I am arguing-although I know it is after the fact, but I would like it on the record-that the North deserves five seats. The North does -

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 455 deserve five seats. It is not a fact, but you could say that in terms of morality, in terms of justice, that would be the direction we ought to go. Madam Speaker, I think northerners deserve the same kind of representation as southerners. I know that some kind of guidelines have to be used. I am fully aware of that, and you have to draw the line somewhere.

I know that the commiSSion members, independent and honourable as they all were-I do not doubt that for a minute-! think almost came to the conclusion we had four and a half seats in the North, but that is not quite the same as saying five seats. * (1510 ) There is another reason why five seats would be useful, and that is that some of the regions that are lumped into the Flin Flon constituency do not naturally fit there. Some of the regions that are in the Rupertsland constituency do not naturally fit there.

By that I mean that the people of Nelson House, for example, who were going to be put in the constituency of Flin Flon, more normally belong to Thompson. That is where they shop; that is where they go to the hospital, and so on Incidentally, Nelson House is back now, as it was, in the constituency of Thompson; however, when you go to some of those other constituencies, such as South Indian Lake, Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids and northern constituencies, they more naturally fit with Churchill, or, they more naturally form their own region.

For example, there is no community of interest really between South Indian Lake and Flin Flon. I doubt very much if anybody from South Indian Lake ever gets to Flin Flon. If they are going to go anywhere by road-and that is most difficult because they have to go by ferry in the summer, then go by the south bay road through Thompson, south to Leaf Rapids and then to Winnipeg. They do not come anywhere near the Flin Flon part of the constituency. So there is no congruity of interest there whatsoever. The people up there do tell me that.

They will say stuff like, yeah, we like you, but when Jay Cowan was there, he represented a region that we all felt we were part of. I can understand that, Madam Speaker. Now, I know that not in every time can we do exactly what any particular region wants. We are cognizant of the figures that are there, but it seems somewhat weird that to get, for example, to Leaf Rapids or South Indian Lake I have to travel south till I hit Highways 10 and 39, the boundary between that and my col league from The Pas.

Then I have got to travel along that boundary for about 300 kilometres until I pass through the region that is represented by my collea gue from Thompson. Then I have got to go way up north and hang a right, way right over top of that Thompson constituency, to get to an area that I represent. Those people over there feel they have a community of interest, and they deserve their own region, a northern region which would probably include Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, South Indian Lake, Churchill, and so on. Madam Speaker, we want to be clear.

We have put it on record before that we feel the North deserves that fifth seat, that the variation exists for it and that it should have been included. It was not included. We do not think that was fair. I think I have put on record more or less what I think our people feel. They feel that there has to be an independent process that occasionally every 10 years in this case sets new boundaries. We agree with that. We support that.

We think, however, at the same time, that the variations should have been more strictly interpreted, that the North is such a varied area, differences in languages, differences in ethnic backgrounds, and it is so widely disseminated, the population, is so sparsely populated, that in order to give those people the proper representation, we think we have no choice but, after the next time, perhaps 10 years from now, we have to revisit this issue again and give the northerners what they deserve, the representation that is a little closer to home.

Give us that fifth riding which represents a community of interests in the North around Churchill. That way perhaps we are a little bit closer to giving honest and fair representation because as MLAs we are then representing a

456 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 99 smaller area that makes it easier for us to get around and meet the people on the ground. It is very easy in Winnipeg to make these theoretical divisions, as they always do within the perimeter, but the impact in the North is very often not measured. We want to represent our people the best way we can, and one way of doing that is by making the size of those geographical units a lot smaller. I hope that the next time the commiSSIOn seriously entertains the fifth northern seat and allows that full 25 percent variation to take effect. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Question? Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 2. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. House Business Bon. David Newman (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Sp eaker, on House business, I would like to have you call, please, Bills 3, 7, 8, 13 and 16 for second reading. I am wondering if we could proceed with the second reading of The Public Schools Amendment Act, Bill 7. SECOND READINGS Bill 7-The Public Schools Amendment Act Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 7, The Public Schools Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques ), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I am honoured to rise in the House on this, my first occasion as Minister of Education and Training, to present legislation to my coll eagues in the Legislature for their consideration and hopefully for their support. With respect to Bill 7, The Public Schools Amendment Act, our government is committed to enhancing a shared responsibility for and a unified approach to education amongst the various partners.

Legislative amendments to The Public Schools Act have been developed and prepared to clarify and improve the partnership of those working together in strengthening the accountability of Manitoba's education system and to ensure that current administrative requirements reflect what is practised and implemented in our public schools today.

The bill before honourable members focuses upon two areas of interest: enhancing the accountability requirements of school boards through approval to rent buildings; and secondly, repealing the monitoring of measles vaccination vis-a-vis the certificate of immunization require ment for first-time admission form. We have enjoyed the co-operation and assistance of school boards throughout our province in delivering high-quality education and providing safe learning environments for our students.

I am confident that school boards will continue to provide and maintain this level of education excellence into the next millennium.

Nevertheless, in order to ensure the prospect of good, safe, and affordable environments for all, the bill proposes that school boards seek approval to rent buildings which will house school classrooms or be used as division or district facilities. * (1 520) Presently, school boards in Manitoba are required to consult with and obtain the approval of the minister or the Public Schools Finance Boa rd prior to the purchasing, constructing or renovating of school buildings and other facilities.

However, under the current legislation, school boards do not have to obtain prior approval in order to rent buildings to be used as school facilities or for school division and district purposes. The purpose of this amendment is not unduly to restrict school

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 457 divisions who wish to obtain additional facilities for new program purposes or other uses. However, I believe that the greater public interest can best be served if school boards are required to obtain prior approval for the renting of buildings. Departmental approval assures that the safety and building codes requirements are being met and that appropriate levels of utilization of existing facilities and pedagogical quality would be maintained in addition to having parity between owned and rented buildings vis-a-vis Public Schools Finance Board standards.

All situations involving capital facilities would be known to the Finance Board, so it could make the best decisions possible respecting its budget and potential requests for renovations and improvements. Increased accountability for school boards compels both greater responsive ness to concerns of parents, educators and local communities, as well as greater responsibility to Manitoba's taxpayers. With respect to the second area of interest, the immunization requirement, I am pleased to announce that since 1996 all children entering Grade 1 in Manitoba schools have received two doses of measles vaccine.

Since the receipt of two doses, outbreak of measles has virtually disappeared in Manitoba. In fact, last year, Canada had only 12 cases of measles down from about 2,500 in 1995. Monitoring of measles vaccination among school-age children was previously conducted by schools via the Certificate of Immunization Requirements for First Time Admission form, which parents were required to complete in order for their children to obtain entry into school.

The Public Health unit of Manitoba Health is currently monitoring the receipt of appropriate measles immunization via the Manitoba Immunization Monitoring System or MIMS. Given the situation that the Certificate of Immunization Requirements form is no longer serving a necessary purpose vis-a-vis public health, and in view of the fact that the immunization requirement will still be covered in The Public Health Act, the bill before honourable members recommends repealing

Section 26 1(1) of The Public Schools Act. Madam Speaker, I am pleased to bring this bill forward and to commend it to the thoughtful consideration and support of all honourable members. Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 3- The Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 3, The Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les enquetes medico-legales), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, this is a very short bill, and yet it is a very, very important bill. It has been a bill that has been the subject of some debate in this House, and indeed it was a subject of question and answer period involving the Minister of Family Services, my collea gue the MLA from River East or, should I say, for River East. An Honourable Member: Both. Mr. Toews: All right. The Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson) indicates she is both from and for- An Honourable Member: And in. Mr. Toews: -and in River East. I guess the issue that this bill addresses quite head on and squarely is the issue of the role of the Minister of Family Services relating to information that had been prepared by the Chief Medical Examiner and then, in fact, forwarded to the Minister of Family Services for

summary and release then by the Minister of Family Services. The perception of the independent Chief Medical Examiner sending this information over to the Minister of Family

458 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 Services, a member of the Executive Council, for her and her department to summarize was twofold in terms of a problem. Number one, there was an appearance of compromising the independence of the Chief Medical Examiner. The Chief Medical Examiner, of course, conducts his or her duties separately from the Executive Council so that when the Minister of Family Services and her department summarize that information there could always be an accusation that the information so provided was somehow tainted by the process. So what this bill, in fact, does is to authorize the Chief Medical Examiner to prepare a

summary for the annual report and that this would be done despite the confidentiality sections of The Child and Family Services Act. He or she would summarize the relevant information about the examination and prepare it for his or her annual report not later than December 31 of each year. This report, in fact, would be a

summary of the recommendations contained in the reports in the previous years without disclosing the name of an individual or agency or any information that might identify a child or a parent or guardian of the child. So the bill itself then is an important step to further strengthen the independence of the office of the Chief Medical Examiner and ensure that the Minister of Family Services, in fact, can carry out her responsibility. If I could just simply summarize then, the amendments to this bill are necessary to authorize the Chief Medical Examiner to produce an annual

summary of the recommendations made in the previous year arising from reportable child deaths for public release. Under the authority of The Fatality Inquiries Act, the Chief Medical Examiner reviews all child deaths involving Child and Family Services agencies, and its confidential report and recommendations are submitted to the Minister of Family Services, pursuant to Subsections 10 (3) and 10 (4). The proposed amendments to

Section 10 of The Fatality Inquiries Act would then provide the legislative authority for an annual

summary of the recommendations made in the previous year arising from reportable child deaths to be publicly released as an exception to the confidentiality provisions contained in

Section 1 0( 4). The

summary of the report will be included in the annual report made by the Chief Medical Examiner under the act. It is important to note that the

summary of the recommendations will not, as I stated earlier, disclose the name of an individual or agency or any information that might identify a child or the parent or guardian of the child. It is felt that the release of the

summary of recommendations is in the public interest in that the public should be aware of the general nature of the recommendations. It would also ensure that the government and its mandated agencies can be held accountable for advising on the status of implementing recommendations made by the Chief Medical Examiner for the saf ety and well-being of the Manitoba children. I think that concludes my remarks on this rather brief act, Madam Speaker. Thank you for your kind attention. Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), that debate be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to. * (1 530 ) Bill 8-The Ozone Depleting Substances Amendment Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Environment): I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 8, The Ozone Depleting Substances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les substances appauvrissant Ia couche d'ozone, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to introduce Bill 8,

an act to amend The Ozone Depleting Substances Act, for second reading. This bill broadens the scope of The Ozone Depleting Substances Act by providing the capability to regulate substances which are -

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 459 used as replacements for ozone depleting substances. Under the 1987 Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer, a worldwide phase-out of ozone depleting substances is taking place. It is a worldwide effort, and Manitoba is, of course, part of the activity in this arena. One result of this phase out has been the development of numerous replacement substances which could be used in place of the ozone depleting substances.

While many of these replacement substances appear to be quite benign environmentally, and certainly an improvement over the chemicals that they replaced, others appear to have the potential of causing harm to human health and/or to the environment. In other words, Madam Speaker, sometimes the cure that is considered is almost as harmful if not as harmful as the disease that is sought to be cured. It is these potentially harmful replace ment substances that this bill addresses. Turning to the actual wording of Bill 8, you will see in

Section 2 that the bill adds an additional cla use to the

preamble of the act, and this reflects the expanded scope of the act to include replacement substances. The description of the type of replacement substances which may be regulated is intentionally broad. Some replacement substances may cause environmental harm, such as contributing to global warming, for example, while others may raise safety concerns if they happen to be inflammable or have some other characteristic of that nature.

Section 3 of the bill then expands the objects of the act in a similar fashion. The remaining provisions of Bill 8, Sections 4, 5 and 6, contain the detailed provisions necessary to allow for the regulation of specific harmful replacement substances. A new subsection 2(2) is added to allow for the prescribing by regulation of specific replacement substances or products. Amendments to

Section 9 provide the specific regulation-making powers. Bill 8 is essentially an enabling bill in the sense that subsequent regulatory amendments will be undertaken to allow for controls to be pla ced on any specific replacement product. However, as the scope of The Ozone Depleting Substances Act is presently restricted to substances which deplete the ozone layer, the amendments to the act contained in Bill 8 are necessary before regulatory steps can be taken with regard to harmful replacement substances which do not deplete the ozone layer but may be harmful in other ways.

Foll owing the enactment of Bill 8, the government will be embarking on a period of public consultation to determine which replace ment substances should be regulated and what the nature of those regulatory controls ought to be. A major part of this consultation will involve discussions with the Manitoba Ozone Protection Industry Association, commonly referred to MOPIA, the industry and stakeholder association with which the government partners in delivering Manitoba's stratospheric ozone reduction programs. MOPIA has expressed its support for the type of amendments contained in Bill 8.

We look forward to that organization's continuing support as we work out the details of regulating harmful replacement substances. I would like to further add in cl osing, Madam Speaker, that Bill 8 will allow Manitoba to fulfil one of the recommendations contained in the 1998 National Action Plan for the Environmental Control of Ozone Depleting Substances and Their Alternatives, which has been endorsed by the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment, CCME.

Bill 8 will help to keep Manitoba at the forefront of Canadian juris dictions in addressing the environmental concerns associated with ozone depleting substances and their alternatives. So I thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for the time to put these few comments on the record, and I recommend these amendments to the House. Thank you. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bi1113- The University of Manitoba Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Spea ker, I move,

460 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 13, The University of Manitoba Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'Universite du Manitoba), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I rise to introduce Bill 13, The University of Manitoba Amendment Act, as it enters second reading. This bill is designed to help update The University of Manitoba Act and to be sure that the university has the appropriate tools to continue to operate and provide high quality services to Manitobans. There are three separate changes that this bill proposes to make to The University of Manitoba Act.

First the bill proposes to change the provisions related to the ability of the university to invest. Currently the act provides some restrictions on the types of investments that the university can make. While the intention was to ensure responsible investment on the part of the university, the reality of the changing nature of investment over the past number of decades has meant that the university could safely invest its resources in a number of different vehicles and earn a higher rate of return. The bill proposes to allow the University of Manitoba to invest as a prudent person would.

This provision is in line with the investment powers granted to Brandon University and the University of Winnipeg and is becoming a more common tool governments in Canada are giving post-secondary institutions. A second provision of Bill 13 is to ensure that the three senate members elected to the board of governors will face re-election or replacement at a rate of one per year. This measure is simply to ensure that there is consistency in the membership of the board among the senate members.

The third provision gives the University of Manitoba explicit powers over parking on property controlled by the university. Honourable members may recall media stories of law students ripping up parking tickets, claiming that the university did not have the power to issue tickets in the first place. Madam Speaker, I am fortunate to have a law student for a daughter, and I can say that those tickets were not being ripped up by her. I thought I would put that on the record.

My daughter was a student at the University of Manitoba, probably at the time that happened, but at that point she was not a law student. [interjection] I would not like to make too much light of this, Madam Speaker, because I know that the majority of students at the University of Manitoba, if they got a parking ticket, would pay their ticket. It also should be added rather hastily that the majority of the students at the University of Manitoba would not be parking illegally in the first place. That needs to be said about the responsible people that we have attending our universities everywhere in Manitoba.

However, there is a requirement to manage these matters and to allow the university to have sufficient authority to govern things like parking on its property. * (1 540) I am very pleased to be part of a province that has institutions of higher learning like the University of Manitoba, the University of Winnipeg, Brandon University and other post secondary institutions. I know that the children in our family have certainly made use of these various facilities to prepare themselves for the kind of future that they hope for, for themselves and hopefully their future families.

I have made reference to this before that at this point there are still no grandchildren, and I keep referring to this, but nothing has happened yet. I know that something has happened in your family, Madam Speaker, and what a joyful event that is. Well, I just hope that some of the members of the family read Hansard from time to time and so get the message, one way or another. In any event, I digress. While the University of Manitoba maintains that it has sufficient powers under the act, it is questionable whether the powers granted to the university in

Section 16 of the act would be supported in a legal challenge. So, maybe, Madam Speaker, those students who were ripping up their parking tickets were onto something. Law students though they are, it may be because of some of the things they were -

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 461 learning in law school that they came across these things. That is how our laws change. It is a very living democracy we are honoured to be part of because the law is a living thing, and, from time to time, adjustments get made in our laws to reflect the realities of modern society. There is an old expression-and my collea gue the venerable and honourable member for Lakeside and Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Enns) is placing some of his views before honourable members with respect to some of the body of our law, and I will leave it for him to enlarge on the sentiments that he so elo quently expresses today. I look forward to that discussion. In any event, whatever the state of the law or its description, Madam Speaker, government is acting today to ensure that the University of Manitoba can control parking on its campus.

The Department of Education and Training continues to work with the Department of Justice and the University of Manitoba to ensure that the University of Manitoba has appropriate powers in the area of parking and general security services. One can only imagine what it would be like if the University of Manitoba were to go on lacking the authority and the power to take care of security measures, including parking, on its campus. It is, after all, in many ways, operating in an autonomous way in providing fantastic education opportunities to Manitobans and has done so for generations.

Certainly, we know that the agriculture faculty has produced some paragons of agricultural excellence for this province for the benefit of all Manitobans, some of whom sit very near my place in this Chamber. For that I am extremely grateful and proud, and Manitobans are far better off for it.

I speak immediately of a former Minister of Highways and Transportation, a former Minister of Agriculture, a former member for Virden, a present member for Springfield, and one whose presence I know all honourable members will greatly miss as we approach the results of the next election, which will no doubt return the Filmon administration to a record fourth term in office, unfortunately, without the services at that time of the honourable member for Springfield.

I just say again, we will miss him in our councils; we will miss him in our cabinet; we will miss him in our caucus; we will miss him in our caucus committees; we will miss him in our cabinet committees. What I am trying to say is, we are going to miss Glen Findlay. Again, I digress. We were talking about the University of Manitoba. As I did so, I was making reference to the excellence of certain of the faculties there, one of them being the Facul ty of Agriculture and one of the products of that faculty, the honourable member for Springfield.

When you get on to talking about the honourable member for Springfield, one could be forgiven if one digressed from the topic of parking at the University of Manitoba just slightly. We are told that parking at the University of Manitoba in the '70s was somewhat of an easier thing to accomplish than it is in the '90s and the coming millennium.

That is probably true, and the fact that it is not so easy today reflects progress, reflects the fact that there would be many more students, many of them arriving by car, and visitors to the university and faculty and others, who, at various times, would require spaces for parking. For all of those reasons, these matters do come up on the floor of the Legislature from time to time.

I think members will appreciate that with a daytime popula tion and this is getting to the point of what I was discussing-of approximately 30,000 people, the University of Manitoba can be a busy place, placing demands on limited parking space and on a small security service. I mean, do honourable members realize how many people 30,000 are? It was not that many years again the population of Brandon, the entire popula tion of Brandon, including every man, woman and child, was approximately 30,000.

If things continue to succeed in The Pas as they have been and at Opasquia First Nation, that number will characterize their population in a few years from now if they continue with the kinds of success that they have been seeing in recent years. I just mention that figure to give a perspective on the kind of activity that is going on at the University of Manitoba. It is a very busy place, which suggests that there be some reasonable level of supervision and security and parking arrangements. In order for the university to have that authority, we need to have Bill 13 to provide the authority for the

462 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 smooth functioning of a university campus community in a modem campus community like the University of Manitoba with all of the attendant hustle and bustle. * (1 55 0) So what this bill does, without going into a lot of detail about it, Madam Spea ker-! know that some honourable members will want to examine this in tremendous detail, take it to their lawyers to get legal opinions because, after all, it was a legal opinion that gives rise to this bill in the first place.

As I pointed out, there were some law students at the University of Manitoba who tore up a traffic ticket and- An Honou rable Member: Mr. Forest, when he challenged a traffic ticket. Mr. McCrae: Do not get me started. The fact is, Madam Speaker, that those law students claimed that the university did not have the power to issue the tickets in the first place. Later on, the Department of Education and Training, working with the Department of Justice and the university, are now working together to ensure that there are appropriate powers in place for the university. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

It has been drawn to my attention that some of the honourable members are ha ving difficulty hearing the honourable Minister of Education because he keeps turning away from the microphone and therefore his comments are not being picked up. I wonder if I might ask if the honourable Minister of Education could speak into the microphone. Mr. McCrae: I do apologize to honourable members who would have been hanging on every word, Madam Speaker. I guess I seek a little more direction. Which parts was it honourable members missed?

I do apologize for turning my back, but we have a circular Chamber here, which is one of the wonderful features of our building. I note that when the tour people come by, there is quite a fascination as people look around the room and look up and down and see all the beautiful things about this building. But you know, for every positive feature, there is a negative, and if one turns one's back to address one's own coll eagues seated behind, then you tend to do a disservice to those members opposite who I know are very interested in hearing every word of my presentation this afternoon.

An Honourable Member: Bill number what? Mr. McCrae: Speaking of Bill, earlier today, I was joined by Bill Bumstead, who is the principal of the Sa nford Col legiate. At Anokiiwin School we announced today [interjection]-Eiaine Cowan, Ron Buzahora. The Buzz and Boomer show they called it, rather than bummer, I think, Madam Speaker, because Dr. Buzahora and Bill Bumstead were there and Elaine Cowan and Ray Starr of Anokiiwin School. We ann ounced a partnership between the Morris-MacDonald School Division, and the-1 have a little trouble, because I have not pronounced this one a lot-but Anokiiwin School.

The government and the Assembly of Chief s were represented there today to announce a wonderful partnership to assist adult aboriginal, Metis, and Inuit students to complete their high school education to help prepare them for further education, for exa mple, at the University of Manitoba. Now, Madam Speaker, if those students from Anokiiwin School who graduate as a result of this partnership mentioned today should arrive at the University of Manitoba in their cars, they may need a place to park. An Honourable Member: What if they do not have cars? Mr.

McCrae: If they do not have cars, they could possibly consider the option of commuting with other people. That would serve my col league's interest and all those interested in the environment, if they were to engage in car pooling. They could save fossil fuels, help contribute to the solution, to the global warming issue that we keep hearing about. The other thing they could do-[interjection] The only reason I get into this is because honourable members opposite asked what if they do not have a car, which is a very good question.

Students simply do not all have the wherewithal to be able to get behind the wheels of a car and get themselves any-1 was a student at one time, and I know how true this is. -

April 20, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 463 I was very poor in those days. I do not know if I was as poor as John Turner or Brian Mulroney in those days. I remember the debate that those two fellows had about who was the poorest when they were kids. I do not know if I was as poor as either one of them, but probably poorer. I do know the difficulties of students nowadays and students, not only nowadays, but traditionally, and the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) can probably back me up on this. Students are not generally known as your higher income people in our society.

There is a time of some penury and sacrifice as we get through that part of our lives where obviously we are looking forward to better times. One of the reasons we are looking forward to better times is because we are carpooling to get to the University of Manitoba or we are taking public transportation, which, when you do that, takes the pressure off the parking situation at the university, reduces the requirement for Bill 13.

However, there are students who arrive at university in their vehicles and others, too, who get there for various reasons, some of them visiting lecturers or whatever; but, when you have 30,000 people in and about university property, it comes as no big surprise to me that you might need some rules about parking. Therein is the background and the need for Bill 13. But, speaking of Bill, again, Mr. Bumstead earlier today has shown the pioneering spirit that exists at Morris-MacDonald School Division which is partnering with Anokiiwin school here in downtown Winnipeg.

I had the opportunity earlier today to visit the classroom there and to rub shoulders with some of the teachers and students there. I was touched, frankly, to hear one of the aboriginal students there come to me and say this is very good what is happening here today. This is historic. It kind of hit me fairly hard when I heard that because, while I agree it is historic and it is important, I think we some times tend not to understand ourselves the importance of some of the things that we are engaged in as members of the Legislature.

I try to remind myself every day, but to see it in the face of a young aboriginal person who is about to embark on a better life because of a decent educational opportunity provided because people are willing to be innovative. Elaine Cowan, whom honourable members opposite will likely have heard of, is one of the managers or owners of this school, which is educating aboriginal students; she is part of that partnership. I think it is innovative. It is leading the way.

It is showing us the way, and I say all this because I know that some of these students are going to find their way to the University of Manitoba, which is the subject of Bill 13 here today. It is a pretty wonderful experience to be part of that, but I was able to listen to the other speakers today and it was very nice to hear the representative from the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs who said: we are breaking through a different kind of barricade here today.

The different kind of barricade is exactly the kind of barricade we want to break through and that is the barricade of regulation, the barricade of what is another word for stovepipeism? *

(1600) An Honourable Member: Silo. Mr. McCrae: The barricade that living in silos creates for us in our society. I was able to point out in my remarks that well, as usual I was plagiarizing, quoting somebody else and I referred to Bill Gates. I do not know how many here have heard of Bill Gates but Bill Gates is Mr. Microsoft. I am told that he has a personal fortune in excess of $50 billion, which just to contemplate could take you the better part of an afternoon in this House. Bill Gates did not get to be a multibillionaire for not having vision. Mr.

Gates says that technology is going to change more the next decade than it has in the last five. [interjection] Well, maybe some who disagree. Anyway, we need to be ready for that. That kind of technological change requires us to use the best we have, the best that our teachers gave us and do some thinking and open our minds. Let us have growing minds, which was the subject of-the name of a conference put on by the Manitoba Teachers' Society on the weekend. Growing Minds was the name of that conference.

If our minds are going to grow enough just to keep up, never mind keeping ahead, we better enter into more partnerships like the one that was entered into and announced today.

464 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1999 But I digress, Madam Speaker. There are some moments in your work that you just know why you are here and I know why I am here, because I am so extremely positive about where people in this province are prepared to go, where they are prepared to take us, where they are prepared to lead us. Mr. Bumstead, Mr. Buzahora and the good folks at Anokiiwin coll ege-[interjection] Yes, all of those people, good old Buzz and Boomer are leading.

They are showing by example that partnerships are where it is at, partnerships are what has built this province to the excellence that we have today. People like that are going to be the ones to let us realize our potential as a province, which is in my estimation, limitless. I do not know of any limit we should be placing on the potential of those people who are attending that school and the other schools that we have in this province.

Manitoba is a wonderful place to be, and if I had to park my car anywhere I would like to park it at the University of Manitoba, knowing full well that it is going to be properly policed as a result of Bill l3 which we have before us today. Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, we thank the minister for his expose on parking and parking lots. I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill16-The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Amendment and Parental Responsibility Amendment Act Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Northern and Native Aff airs (Mr. Newman), that Bill 16 , The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Amendment and Parental Responsibility Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine et Ia

Loi sur Ia responsabilite parentale ), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Toews: It certainly gives me great pleasure to introduce this particular bill into the House. The bill may look like a relatively simple legislative document, and yet it is indeed very, very complex from a constitutional law point of view. As we know, in our federal system of courts and the jurisdiction assigned to each Legislature and the House of Parliament, the superior courts and the jurisdiction assigned to those superior courts is a matter of federal responsibility.

The appointment, I should say, of judges to those superior courts is a matter of a federal responsibility. The province also has certain jurisdiction to create courts, but the province is not entitled to confer jurisdiction onto a provincial tribunal or court that would in effect give superior court powers to the provincial court. This has long been a matter of debate and discussion.

The Supreme Court of Canada, as recently as about I 0 years ago, came out with what is considered by most the definitive judgment in respect of this particular issue and indicated that is not simply the jurisdiction of provincial tribunals and courts that can be looked at across Canada in a generic fashion. Indeed, one needs to look at the jurisdiction of the court when the province entered Confederation.

So that means that when one looks at the jurisdiction of a particular court in a province when it entered Confederation, there may well be differences in the jurisdiction that each province has when it comes to assigning responsibilities to the court. The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Act indeed is no exception to this very complex constitutional rule. It has always been a matter of, or shall I say less a matter, of science than one of art in trying to determine what is the maximum jurisdiction that the province can confer upon the Small Claims Practices court.

It is not enough simply to point at British Columbia and say, well, in that jurisdiction they allow claims up to a certain number of dolla rs, or to point to Saskatchewan which entered Confederation in 19 05 and simply say, the jurisdiction there is a certain amount of dolla rs, so let us simply duplicate it. It is a much thought about and controversial area. -

April 20, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 465 Frankly, I think that this is an area that we need to rationalize right across Canada and make it much simpler not only for legislators to determine what the appropriate level should be, but, in fact, allow policy decisions to be made on needs that the community identifies rather than the allow ances that our constitution makes, given the different histories of each of the provinces. Each province has a different history.

Indeed, that diff erent history, that different legal history may result in a different constitutional status being granted to each of those provinces in respect of the allowable limit. I note that in the Manitoba Civil Justice Review Task Force report of September 1996, which my collea gue the Minister of Northern and Native Aff airs (Mr. Newman) has some detailed knowledge about and indeed involve ment with, they, too, looked at this particular issue. In bringing the bill forward, I rely on their recommendations in respect of the jurisdiction of the court.

The recommendation made was set out in the task force recommen dation where they state that they support raising the limit to $7,500 at this time. They state this is slightly in excess of the current limit, taking into account inflation since the limitation was enacted. * (1610 ) They also deal with the issue of raising the level for general damages from the allowable $1 ,000 to $1 ,500, and that we have done in this particular bill. This increased· limit will now allow a greater access to a

summary mechanism to ensure that justice is, in fact, done. The Small Claims Court, as many of us know, provides the public with a simple, relatively low-cost mechanism for resolving certain civil disputes. By increasing the amount of the claim allowable to $7,500, we will provide more members of the public with access to the small claims process.

As you may well know, Madam Spea ker, there are cases where, because the limit is presently at $5,000 and someone would have a claim for, let us say, $6,000, they would rather abandon the claim in excess of a thousand dolla rs or in excess of the $5,000, and forgo the cl aim for the thousand dol lars, because it would be simply too cost prohibitive to appear in the regular Court of Queen's Bench. So what this then does is further this government's commitment to a more accessible, efficient justice system where a broader judgment can be obtained on a

summary basis. As actions under The Parental Responsibility Act are intended to be taken in Small Claims Court, the claim amount under that act has also been increased to $7,500 to reflect the increased jurisdiction of the court. I would certainly indicate that if there is a broader constitutional jurisdiction than what we have suggested here, I w

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-11
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 11.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e04fc39d271ecfc0e71f4ffe2d07fccced9915fe

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