VOL· 3 NO. 48 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MAY 3, 1978

!·'ay 3, 1978 Tape 1756 DH - 1 The Rouse met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAY..mt: Order, please! I am pleased to welcome to the galleries of the Rouse of Assembly sixteen students from the Vera Perlin SchoGl of Gander accompanied by some of their teachers and vohmteer ~vorkers.I know han. members join l!'.e in welcoming these students and those ~•ha a~e with them. SO~TE EON. ~EBERS : Hear, hear! 1-!r. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege, Sir. MR. SPEAKE?,.: Point of privilege. ~IR • S • ".TEARY: Yesterday in this hon. Fouse, ~r.

Spea!~r. the hen. the Premier lashed out one of the most scurrilous personal attacks that has ever ~een made on a member in this House in my sixteen years in the House,and through innuendo tried to smear my character,and it was probably the worst example, Sir, of character assassination that we have ever seen. And now, :1r. Speaker, I have no choice ~ut to do what I am goint to do today. I am going -what I ~ - first of all I am going to do it providing that the hen. the Premier will also do the same thin~ that I am going topropose. I am prepared, ~!r.

Speaker, in order to explode the argu.."lents,in order to lay ever]thing concerning my past on the table of the :1ouse-and if the hen. the Premier •.;ants to know the number of times I go to the bathroom every day the !l.on. gentleman can :1ave ::hat, too- I am quite prepared, Sir, to lay my 1.ear'ership expenses, revenue and expenditure in total,and I am not askinp, the Premier to list names because the hen, the Premier would not do it an~~re tha~ my hon. colleague the Leader of the Oppositio!". or myself or anybody else who is involved in Leaderships. - AN RON. ~fEMBER: You would have to get permission to do it.

1[ay 3, 1978 Tape 1756 JH - 2 HR. S. NEARY: The laws of this Province do not compel us. to do that, unfortunately. I wish we did have a law· but because we never told these peo?le when they donated to our various campaigns that ~~e would make their names public therefore it would not be fair because these people may not want to make contributions if they knew they were going to made public.

I am prepared to lay my 1eadership expenses,revenue and expenditure,on the table of the House providing that the Premier will do the same for the D-10 campaigns that the ~'!on. gentleman was involved in,the two Leader- ship campaigns. And - PREMIER MOORES: What two? HR. S. NEARY: Well all right. The first one- and did they not have a second one? President of the PC Party. AN RON • ~!E}ffiER: I won you did not. MR. S. ~EARY: Well all right, Mr. SpeakQr 1 Providing the hon. the Premier will lay his expenses on the tab~e of the House I am quite prepared to do it. I am also prepared - AN RON. ~IllER: (Inaudible) ~~.

S .. ~·TEARY: l1r. Speaker, I am also prerared to lay certain~other information in connection with my own personal life on the table of the House,na-mely,the mortgage on my home,I am prepared to lay that on the table of the Tiouse and the balance out- standing.I am also, Sir, ?repared to lay on the table of the House, although I really do not have to do this because the information is availe.~le to hon. gentlemen,my conflict of interest state1!1ent Hhich sho•"s everything that I am the o~mer of. ;rhat can be put on the tab~e of the House. I am also prepared~ :-!r.

Speaker, to get a statement from the ban!{ showing the balance due on my wife's car and I = also prepared, ~!r. Speaker, to get a atatement from the finance company showing the monthly payments and the balance due on my own car. I am prepared to fio these - I i . f ' i

}fay 3, 1978 Tape 1756 DH - 3 .!ill HON. m:MBER: (Inaudible) And I am prepared to do that too if I have to,·Mr. Speaker, But _ I am prepared, Sir, to lay any information in connection with my own private and personal life, my Leadersh~p Campaign,any elections that I have been involved in, I am quite prepared to lay the information on the table of the House provided, l· ~r. Speaker, that the hon. the Premier will do li!~ewise starting right back to the resignation of ~~r. William Saunders and co~ing right on up to the present ti~e. Let us say from January - no,from December 1971 right up to the present time.

If the hon. the Premier is prepared to let it all hang out then so am I I do not t~ink it would be fair, '~r. Speaker, for !1!e to lay th_e info~tion on the table of the ~ouse,although I discussed it with my collearues i~ r.aucus t~is morning and my colleagues agree~,including those ~~ho qere candidates in the Leadership and because it would not be fair for me to lay my expenses ana revenue on the table of the House without consulting with t~m.!heonly one I have not consulted wit::\ ~~, the mer.Der for the Straits of Belle Isle (l~r. Poberts).

So if t !1e Premier :;ill lay the matter of the Bill Saunders resignation, the information on that on the table of the Houselif the hon. the Premier will lay on the table of the House his own

May 3, 1978 Tape 1757 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: expenses for his ca~~:paigns since 1971 and lay on the table of the House his own statement of revenue and expenditure for his leadership campaign, then, Sir, I will do likewise, and I challenge the hon. gentleman to do it or cut out this smear campaign forever. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: First of all, Sir, it is not a point of privilege; secondly, I am delighted to see that the bon. member has the support of all the backbenchers on the other side on this question ..

My accusation - all I asked, was that the contribution by ~r. Doyle or any of his agents would be made · UR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will insist that only one person at a time speak. The general mood and that of the House is such that this rule must be strictly enforced. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as I said, I do not think it is a point of privilege, but just to refer to a few of the comments made by the hon. the member for LaPoile 1 The fact is, Sir, that the question that was asked of him is only one specific question, of what Mr.

Doyle or any of his agents had contributed because to me at least, and I think ~to others,it is fairly obvious that Mr. Doyle doe~ have an influence over any or many people in this Province, or some at least. Also, Sir, all I would ask the hon. member is - rather than table the documents,that he say outside this House all those things which he has said inside this House. Secondly, Sir, he talks about it all hanging out. I am sure, Sir, one way or the other, it ,, !

May 3, 1978 Tape 1757 EC - 2 PREMIER MOORES: will all hang out before it is over; -- And thirdly, Sir, when he talks about Mr. Saunders, I would suggest he ask Mr. Doyle who paid off Mr. Burgess and Mr. Shea. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am in the process of giving a ruling. My ruling is that there is no case of privilege before the Chair. There is no matter on which the Chair can make a decision. There is no matter of privilege - a difference of opinion, a form of challenge on tabling different documents, but not a matter on which the Chair can make a ruling. MR. NEARY: A point of privilege, Mr.Speaker.

The hen. gentleman in his remarks, Sir, made another statement that I am going to challenge as is my right to do in this hon. House, Sir, and that is that I am quite prepared, Mr. Speaker, to lay on the table of the House any - if there is any - contribution from Mr. Doyle; I am quite prepared to put that on the table of the House,if there is, providing that the hon. the Premier will lay on the table of the House all the money that has been collected by Mr. George McLean for the hon. gentleman and his party in this Province. rm. LUNDRIGAN: If I may, Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Grand Falls.

IDL LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, there is a serious question of privilege evolving here - it has been going on for several days - and that is by virtue of the abuse of _ the question of privilege, the abuse on a daily basis which is turning into debate, and turning into debate today, that all members of this Legislature are being robbed of their privilege, the privilege to enable them to enact on legislation,issues, resolutions, like this afternoon, Your Honour. And I think this h as gone f ar enough.

May 3, 1978 Tape 1757 EC - 3 MR. LUNDRIGAN: And I am suggesting to Your Honour that some method or way has to be found to eliminate the abuse of the question of privilege going on in this House right now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am in a position to judge the matter of privilege brought up by the hon. gentleman to my right.

I do not see that it is a matter of privilege - again a difference of opinion, a form of challenge, a matter on which numerous han. gentlemen could express their opinions if there is a suitable motion before the Chair on a debate, but I do not see it as a matter of privilege. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the illegal occupation of Crown land which I indicated I would be making. Although the policy changes that I will have to announce here, Mr.

Speaker, will probablv not meet all the requirements that hon. members want 1 it is as far as we can go, or I can go at this time without a change in the legislation, and I am certainly not prepared to propose a change in the Crown Lands Act at this point in time. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture is charged with the responsibility of planning, managing and administering all Crown land in the Province for the continuing social and economic benefit of the people. The manner in which this role has been l i ,! r. ~-,. ' r . ~ :.\

May 3, 1978 Tape 1757 EC - 4 MR. MAYNARD: carried out during the past several hundred years accounts for the present problems which we have .. • . !

Hay 3,1978 Tape Nc. 1758 AH-1 l1R. MAYNARD: Yhich prevents the efficient administration of Crown land. Our action or lack of action at present Yill either help to resolve the problems for the future or will ~rsen the situation. .Ap.d I think all hon. members will realize the problems we do have in the administration of Crown land in this Province. My department is thus responsible not only for meeting the needs of the present,but to try at least to respond to the needs of the future. ~ t The department has three basic obligations to I i consider when carrying out our responsibilities.

The first is a legal and moral obligation to existing land owners, =Y of whom we know very little about at the present time; second is our obligation to meet legitimate requirements for land both now and in the future; and third, but not least in importance , is our ~oral obligation to protect and conserve the physical and aesthetic values of land for future generations. lfuen reSJionding to these obligations Ye are continuously faced with conflicting situations. One of the major conflicts results from the illegal occupancy of Crown land. This is a long standing, continuing and serious problem in this Province.

It is a problem, which, if ~e do not resolve it, will continue to frustrate any serious attempts to efficiently administer Crown lands. I say I, it is a conflict because on one hanrl hon. m~bers in this House i and the public outside feel that they nave unrestricted access to any land, but at the same time they want us to efficiently administer the land that we are in control of. If allowed to continue, if illegal occupation is allowed to continue it will prevent forever any impl~entation of a proper system of land management.

And furthermore, illegal occupation practises ~iscriminates against those citizens of the Province who abide by the law and follow the complicated, time • i. ~ ' consuming but necessary procedures for obtaining legitimate title.

Hay 3,1978 Tape No. 1758 AH-2 MR. HAYNARD: Contrary to popular belief, occupation of Crown land for whatever purpose, without the prior approval of government, has been unlawful since at least the introduction of the Crown Lands Act in 1844. Such occupation has been an offence liable to fines and

summary conviction since 1930. Since the introduction of the act in 1944 several attempts have been made to stem the tide of unlawful. occupation. The original act provided the opportunity for persons occupying Crown land prior to 1840 to apply for and receive a grant. The amendment of 1933 provided the opportunity for persons who had occupied Crown land for a period of five years or more prior to 1933 to apply for and receive a grant. The latter amendment also intended that no Crown titles would be issued for land unlawfully occupied after 1933. However, this restriction was removed twenty years later in 1953.

The amendment passed by this House in 1976 (Crown Lands Amendment Act No. 20) and which was at that time applauded by the Opposition was the Latest and most important effort in this regard. It is the most important effort in this regard. It can be seen, Mr. Speaker, that there has been many _at tempts made over the years to correct the situation. The latest amendment was important for the following reasons:

(1) Under

Section 134 grants are now a.vailable to those individuals who can provide evidence of open, notorious and exclusive occupation of land for twenty years prior to January 1,1977. There is no time limit placed on the submission of applications under that section. In other words,we say that people who occupied land for twenty years prior to January 1,1977 are owners of their land. Ttey cannot 7 however,get a mortgage on the land 7 even tlmugh they do own it by law,simply because it has not been surveyed and there is no legal discription of the l~d. We will,if taey want to get a survey ,, ,,

~ !ay 3,1978 T~pe !'lo. 1753 .U!-3 ~IR. MAYNARD : and apply and show that they have occupied it grant them, give them an outright grant . This never happened before , t he only way that people could obtain land was to go through the Quieting of Titles Act throug h the courts which cost theo 7 in many cases, thousands of dollars to prove their ownership . We are now through this amendment which we p as~ed i~ 1976, Mr. Speaker, allowing them a much simpler method of getting a title to their land. As 1 say there are no time limi~s, I I ~

:ray 3, 1973 Tape ~lo. 1759 :tt - 1 !ill.. HATIARD: they can apply ten years froc now if they can show occupation. Approved applications require survey, of cou~se,and ttere is a charge of $100 for ~ach grant issued regardless of the size of the land. And that amount only goes part ~iay, a very minimal amount, towards reco vering the administrative costs irivolved. We ~ave received about 400 applications under that particular

section to date and we are dealing with them as rapidly as we can. Number t·.vo, under

section 134, the same section, the co::J.cept of "squatters rights'' has been a:,olished as of January 1, 1977, with the exception of the ones that I have " I just Qentioned. Number three, under

section 134, anyone initiating ille 2 aJ occupation of Crown land on or after J~uaD' 1st., 1977 is lia~l~ 7 vn sur.~ary conviction to a minim~ fine of $200 and/or a terQ of ~priso~ent. In addition,this

section also provides for the ra~oval of illegal structures and restoration of the land. The previous fine was $50 per acre. In other words, anyone who has occupied Crow~ land illegally, since January 1st., 1977, can have action taken aga:L;st t:.eo, and quite probu.ol y ·~i.ll because I have told t;1e officials of the department to make every effort to enforce that particular section. That is in the act, Mr. Speaker, it was passed by this Legislature, it is not a personal policy of the minister.

The problem which has created the greatest amount of controversy and misunderstanding in recent months,is the policy which government has implemented regarding individuals ·..rho have been occupying Crown land for less than twenty years prior to January 1st., 1977,witilout benefit of title, These individuals are not subject to fine or imprisonment identified in

section 134, but they are subject to possible eviction under

section 116 of the Crown Lands Act, and that

section has been in existence since 1930. Simply stated, our policy regarding this latter group

l1ay 3, 1978 Tape No. 1759 NM- 2 MR. MAYNARD: who are at present illegally occupying Crown land under the laws of the Province, was to give every such individual an opportunity to apply for a title according to existing policies governing the issue of leases or permits-to-occupy. We requested,through public notice, that such individuals identify themselves and submit a Crown land application, accompanied by a $1 mandatory applicatian fee,and we requested through public notice that they submit that application prior to March 31st., 1978.

In exchange, even though they were illegally occupying the land, and in order to try to legalize their occupation during the time period necessary to process their applications, the applicant was to receive a permit-to- occupy for a fee of $25 and no surveys a~e required_ prior to the application being processed. It should be noted that $25 is the minimum annual rent presently charged. to legal occupants of Crown land. Individuals within this group who failed to apply by the deadline would be subject to legal action. It is a fact, Mr.

Speaker, that even though these people had illegally occupied Crovm lands within the laws of t::J.is Province, this government was and is giving them every possible opportunity to legalize their occ"unancy. The $25 whic~ hon. members have referred to as being t!1e cost of submitting an application is totally ~qrong and was totally wrong when they were saying it. It was $25 for one year's rental on that piece of land.

Now1 it is our intent ~~at wherever possible, and •here it is in the best interest of the public, the foregoing applications •rill be approved for long-term lease or temporary renewable permics- to-occupy. Unfortunately, there will be some applications that ~till have to be refused. In the case of refusal, the individual involved will be required to remove any structures erected on the land ~thin a reasonable time period • .\nd because of that notice that 11e put out, l - l ,..

:ray 3, 1978 Tape •;o . 1759 ::u - 3 Mr. Speak?r, 1700 people who were in a legal occupation of Crown land hnve come forward and asked for a lease or title to their land!...WP. are processirut their applications now. The cries of chang~g the traditional life styles and burning the cabins are,of course~exaggerated and ~ve 1;1ot occurred. If any hon. member can gi.ve me one specific instance or name one person on f1fY staff who has directly said, "I will burn your cabin," I want it brought to my at1:.ention i.mmediatel.y. However, I recogni ·ze that the imposition of the - MR. SIMMONS: Just one or more than one.

AN OON. MEr-mER: 'I en, a dozen. NR. HAYNARD: I said, if any member can identify to me, any lllel:lber of my staff who has said that, "I will burn your cabin," I want to know of them immediatel-y, Is that cl.ea:r enough2 Names, pLwes, dates, Circumstances. ! I ... i I

May 3, 1978 Tape 1760 PK - 1 MR. MAYNARD: Rowever before I recognize that the imposition of a $25 annual fee,in some circumstances,is an unreasonable burden, And this hardship may have prevented certain individuals from applying by the March 3L neadline. And I am referring to those individuals who rely on temporary shelters as a means of earning their income or a part of their income.

It is pretty hard, Mr, Speaker, to specify or put into classifications the people we are talking about, but they can be identified as commerical wood harvesting operators, commerical inshore fishermen, commerical trappers, including people who snare rabbits for some commerical resale,or as part of their livelihood, integral part of their livelihood. In many of these cases 1 more than one shelter is required,such as on the trap line. I am not referring to shelters constructed for recreational hunting or fishing. In response to this pror.lem I am hereby e~ending the March 31 deadline to July 31, 1978.

I will ~lso be requesting my colleagues in Cabinet to reduce the cost of the annual permit for these individuals to $1.00. Such individuals will be required to submit a Crown land application, as before, for each site occupied and each application must be accompanied by a $1.00 application fee, Individuals falling within the 'commerical' category that I have just mentioned, who have already received a permit at a cost of $25.00 will get an appropriate refund.

Each individual applying within the 'commerical' category will be required to provide proof, satisfactory to the department, that he or she falls within that category. All other occupation will be considered as recreational use and will be subject to the $25.00 fee previously imposed. In other words,there is no point in someone coming in to the department and saying, I have a temporary shelter, I want to file an application with $1.00, and when we inspect it we find that it is a three bedroom cabin. That just will not wash. PREMIER MOORES : And a coloured T.V. MR. MAYNARD: And a coloured T.V. l il I' ~~ ,:

May 3, 1978 Tape 1760 PK - 2 Mr. Maynard: I emphasize that the foregoing policy applies only to those individuals whose occupation is for a period less than twenty years prior to January 1, 1977. In other words, anyone who has built a shelter or cabin or structure of any kind after January 1, 1977 cannot be allowed unless they have a proper permit to occupy or a lease. All proposed new structures must be preceeded by an approved Crown Land application plus a lease or a permit-to-occupy, as the case may be, before development can take place. Failure to comply with existing legislation regarding illegal occupation will result in legal action by the department. In

summary, I want to assure everyone that this policy is being implemented with the overall good of the majority of the people in mind. I hope that everyone concerned will take the opportunity to declare their illegal occupancy and avail of the opportunity that we are giving them to legalize their occupancy of Crown land. Otherwise, the illegal occupancy of·Crown land is an I I offense against the Crown the same as illegal cutting of trees or the illegal harvesting of wildlife population, or whatever , and will be treated accordingly.

During the next three months, the deparment will be carrying out an intensive publicity campaign to ensure, wherever possible, that the public is fully advised on existing legislation ' I ~ and policy regarding the illegal occupancy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, this is going to be a very short response to that Ministerial Statement. I have noticed, Mr.

Speaker, since I have been a member of the House that some ministers when they are going to present a major,long rambling statement, such as the one we just heard, I

May 3, 1978 Tape 1761 EC - 1 MR. FLIGHT: llave had the courtesy to deliver to the Opposition spokes~an of that depart~ent a text of the state~ent, thereby enabling hi~ to stand up and to co~~ent on the state~ent. I would have wished, and I regret that the ~inister did not extend the same courtesy, Mr. Speaker. It is practically impossible to address oneself to that state~ent without having had a chance to have read the statement and to see what was contained therein. So I will not attempt, Mr. Speaker, to address myself to all the points obviously covered. ,. I just want to say for this side of the House, Mr.

Speaker, that we, too - all the Opposition - and everyone in Newfoundland, every responsible person knows and wishes and.will work towards having a complete control of Crown lands and having a complete inventory, and knowing what the extent of the ownership of Crown lands is. Our complaint, Sir, and our criticism of this government's approach is the high-handed way in which they decided to deal with people who, up to this point in time, had not received leases or grants under the law. And, Mr.

Speaker, I recall in the statement the minister indicated that the $25 now being charged for right to apply is in effect, because the minister knows that if that application is rejected then the $25 submitted with the application is not refundable; so in that sense the $25 was paid for the right to apply, because 50 per cent.maybe,of those applications will be rejected. Mr. Speaker, the minister made a statement in the House the other day, and this is very I

May 3, 1978 Tape 1761 EC - 2 MR. FLIGHT: germane to his statement now that· it only takes six months to get a Crown land application. l-!R. NOLAI'f: How long? MR. FLIGHT: Six months. AN HON.MEMBER: In what district? MR. FLIGHT: In Newfoundland. Now, Mr.Speaker, I note the minister did not make any reference to that in his statement. I want to submit to the House and to the Minister and to the Speaker that it takes eighteen months to two years and I am still working on applications that were submitted before I became a member of this bon. House. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR.

FLIGHT: The minister should have retracted that. Mr. Speaker, having said that, I think I will not bother - I reserve the right to address myself on behalf of this side of the House to that statement after I have had the opportunity to read the statement and determine just what the minister's statement is. With regard to any improvements however slight, we welcome any improvements in the position taken by this administration with regard to Crown lands. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COM}1ITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. llR.

HICKEY: I wish to table the report on - the disposition of the Canada Summer Games facilities compiled by Chief Judge Geoffrey L. Steele. In doing so I would like to inform hen. members that government is addressing itself to this question and will make a decision at the earliest possible date. Copies are available for members and the media. . F r ' I !" ~ ,. 1!. .·

May 3, 1978 Tape 1761 EC - 3 NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Convey Certain Trusts And Properties In The Province To The Royal Trust Corporation Of Canada". ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have to answer question number six in the name of the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) where he asks, number one, whether any doctors were prosecuted for making false and fraudulent claims under the Medical Care Programme for the yea~ 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977? If the answer is yes, how many doctors were so prosecuted for each year? Three doctors have been prosecuted for submitting false claims to the Medical Care Commission- one doctor in 1974 and two in 1977. In all instances, convictions were registered under the Medicare Act and in addition to fines, monies in question were recovered.

In several instances orders were issued by the Commission for collection of conies and penalties as provided in the act were imposed. Number two, the total amount for which fraudulent or false claims were made for the years referred to, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977, the total amount of fraudulent, false or incorrect claims in 1974 was $3,784.05; in 1975 it was $9,976.75; in 1976~ $14,395.42; and in 1977, $6,278.45 for a total of $34,434.67. -. I I ' -" '· .

May 3, 1978, Tape 1762, Page 1 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: Number (3) "The amount recovered from doctors who submitted false returns to MCP for said year." I just referred to it, the total amount is $34,434.67. Number (4) "What legal action has been taken against doctors for false claims and/or overcharging under the Medicare programme?" The answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is legal action was taken for false claims as reported in number one. Question No. 39, Mr. Speaker,in the name of the same han. member: ''To ask the Minister of Health to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: What is the number of T.B. patients (

a) in hospitals in Newfoundland and Labrador at the present time; and (

b) the number.of T.B.patients being treated in their own homes? The answer, Mr. Speaker, is that the latest inventory on T.B. patients was at December 31, 1977; (

a) four patients were under treatment in hospital; and (b) 159 patients were under out-patient treatment or out-patient care. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.N.ROWE: A question for the hon. the Premier of the Province, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the affidavit tabled in the House here yesterday which makes some allegaEions concerning the government and the Premier,personally, I am wondering if the Premier has now had an opportunity to confer with his Cabinet colleagues in order to see whether they will agree to set up a public enquiry into all matters surrounding the Health Sciences Complex at Memorial University and the Carbonear Hospital? That is the building and design of those two structures, Sir, with particular reference to the - I I f' ' ,_ I. ,- I f. ~ I

-. May 3, 1978, Tape 1762, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: government's involvement and the Premier's personal involvement,as alleged, with Scrivener Engineering Limited, with Scrivener Projects (Nfld} Limited, who I understand were the project managers and designers for those two buildings. Has the Premier had an opportunity to deal with that question and decide whether a public enquiry should be set up to enquire into it, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : First of all that particular document that was tabled yesterday came to my attention some twa years ago.

At that time I thought it was written by a crackpot and I still do. Having said that, the whole matter now is in the hands of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and whilst the Leader of the Opposition may or may not have confidence in that particular establishment, what we are looking at now, Sir, is. a criminal investigation into any crime that was committed by anybody. If that was the case, obviously charges will be brought against that person. Equally, any wrongdoing on behalf of any person will be established.

I look forward to that report very much, Sir, but I would suggest that the R.C.M.P. are in full charge of it right now and will do a good job on it. MR. W.N.ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAJ<ER: A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.N.ROWE: By way of

preamble I would remind the Premier that there is a police investigation into one aspect of public spending, the alleged irregularities in spending by the Department of Public Works. Ana also a public enquiry on the broader question of general irregularities, Sir, the police enquiry being restricted - I ' ~ f. '·· i' t l t ,. r. - & ' i '

.. May 3, 1978, Tape 1762, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: to one particular thing the hangar 3, as I understand it, and the general enquiry on other things, not only to deter.mine criminality, Mr. Spea~er, but to look at other areas of improprieity which may not be criminal but which may verge on improper conduct or, in fact, be evidence of negligence on the part of someone, or mismanagement or anything else, or gross overexpenditures of money. All these things, Sir, certainly will not be the subject matter of a criminal - MR. NEARY: Construction components. MR.

W.N.ROWE: - all of those things, Sir, which will not be - which will have nothing to do with criminality perhaps and therefore the R.C.M.P. will not, in fact, investigate them or lay charges in respect of them. Therefore it is a little bit lew for the Premier to try to insinuate that I do not have confidence in that body, the R.C.M.P. which, of course, I do. The question is, Sir, why do we not have a public enquiry? And the Premier has said now, if I can read between the lines, that we will not have a public enquiry into these other equally important matters. Well, let me ask the Premier this, Sir.

Since the Premier has said - PREMIER MOORES : Where is the question you had? MR. W .N.ROWE: Sorry? PRE~ITER MOORES: I was just wondering what question you were on. MR. W.N.ROWE: Oh well, if the Premier will listen he will learn, Sir. I can understand his being very touchy on the subject. If this \·Jere t he worst t he Premier has ever done, Sir . I l t ~ r c ' I ' I? t . . ' ::

May 3, 1978, Tape 1762, Page 4 -- apb MR. NEARY: At least his hands are in his own pockets. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W .N .ROWE: And not somebody else's. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: That is right. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. W.N.ROWE: Yes, Sir, I must say.

Since the Premier has admitted publicly on television yesterday, and in the House I do believe and Hansard will indicate, that these matters should be investigated by the police and that the police department, the R.C.M.P. and the C.I.D. are the best places for investigation of these matters, I must ask the Premier point blank, Sir, why he did not as Premier of this Province turn this matter over to the police, over to his own Minister of Justice from whom he apparently kept it secret, when he got a copy of this very same affidavit, now tabled in the House, which he says is now the subject of a police investigation, why he did not turn it over to the police, Sir, when he got a copy of it a year or more ago?

I i' J j: -f J

May 3, 1978 Tape No. 1763 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I can answer that very simply. I am delighted by the way, before I answer it, to see that the Leader of the Opposition has come down four square and totally behind the member for LaPoile's (Mr. Neary) position on this whole argucent. I am delighted to see that the Liberal caucus and the Liberal side of the House, the Opposition side, are totally be~ind the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) on what he is trying to achieve here. And I know they will be proud of averything they stand for when it is over. MR.

SIMMONS: (Inaudible) • r PRE!1IER MOORES: I am just replying in kind if I may. The reason, Sir, that that was not investigated by ~he oolice in 1975 or whenever it was that it came to my attention, as I said before, I think it ~~as dictated by a m;;m who is unstable, if not mentally deranged. change that opinion. I still have had no reason to l MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: Does the Premier have s01:.e medical evidence <lot available to the rest of us, Mr. Speaker, about this? I do not kaow him from Adam. ~m.. NEARY: Is he a psychiatrist or what? Mrt. w.

ROWE: Does the Pre.:~iar have psychiatric evidence of this? :m. NEARY: A man in ~~urge of a $40 million project. ;.m.. \L ROw"E: A man who was Vice-President of Scrivener (Nfld) LL~ted 7 as I understand 1and in charge of a project and kept in cilarga of t!1e project until i1e resigned of hls ow.:>. volition a year or two after the gove~nt here got into power, Sir~ Does he have medical evidence ~e wculd care to table as to the physical or mental instability of the gentleman whom he is referring to? Would he care to - MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

}fay 3, 1978 Tape No. 1763 NM- 2 PRE11IER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, I do not have any evidence tb-at the man ·has a mental problem that is certiable. MR. NEARY: Well why did you look around? PREMIER ~100RES: I find great difficulty in defining a man who has to hide 1n1ay in Florida to give an interview instead of coming here to St. John's and doing it live ou television. I have a great deal of difficulty with a man who has to be found in order to be interviewed.

I have a great deal of difficulty with a man who does not have the courage to stand up i;::;. the society who he is condemning and say ~~hat he has to say and be gutless in putting forward a point of view, which in my opinion, is totall y wrong. It is totally warped, and it is to tall:; being used, as are other people, I have great diffi 1culty, Sir, in believing the credibility of a man who acts in that fashion, yes I do. :lR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: Sir, as I say I do not know this man from Adam, and I have no desire to defend him.

But the Premier surely remembers that this very same gentleman was going around St. John's, Newfoundland here, giving out stuff to the press, and sending him affidavits, and wanting to get public attention brought to bear on this very important subject. I do not know what the Premier is talking about now, Sir, about a man who is frightened or scared to bring this case to the public. He tried his best and unfortunately failed because the Premier chose to ignore it. MR. NEARY: Five years he was - MR. W. ROWE : Sir, let me ask the Premier this more specific question.

Did the Premier of the Province have any knowledge, personal or indirect knowledge of the negotiation of Scrivener's fee, the re~egotiation or the negotiation of Scrivener's fee for the ' I ~ t·

May 3, 1978 Tape No. 1763 NM- 3 MR. W. ROWE: Carbonear Hospital, up from $63,000, which it apparently had been fixed at, to the sum of $329,000 as alleged in th~ particular affidavit. Did the Premier know anything about that at the time or at any point, afterwards or at the time that it was done? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, yes I have a great deal of knowlegge on that particular subject.

As a oatter of fact Mr. narvey Self, f.-7ho haC. beau a:-?ointed by t:te previous ac:!r.ir.istraticn, toias ;;i-,.. ... .::... carta blanch~, and rot just ~'l.e Carbonear Rosi>ital, or the Healt~1 Sciences Complex, but the whole expansion of the North campus Nithout any strings attached, and without any guidelines as to how he should operate. The situation was that the ?revious adcinistration had [liven out these broad terms of reference tha,.t - AN UON. MID!BEF : They did not _? PREMIER MOORES : Oh yes, and we will document this, absolutely. ~R. W. ROWE: The former administration. PREMIER MOOP.ES : Yes.

It gave to Mr.

Harvey Self in 1971, the full carte blanche an the development of the North campus. :!"inally that ~-1as taken back, Sir, into the dealing with the Health Sciences Comp:ex. !!y collea<;ues in C -1bin~t, o;1~d ::., ~re ve~r aware of v:1en the detailed ~Oc':.l&ilc=nts c.?. r~e forwarci. ttat a definiti,.ie contract :Lad to be ~~c.~ ;o1ith the consulta...-:t3 .:::.t t::;c.t tir.e, that information is totally availa11~ to this House as to v:hy it ';as done, b'"cause w'" could :10t afford an Of"a;J.-ended contract ;aotvlc~;;e of everything that 1·1as nappening in full Cabinet, and Sir, I suggz.l3 t is also avail.:1":Jle to the full 1;::-.ctt:ledge of t:~is Rouse ~.·i1ich I run sure my collear;ue, t:1e :-.fi"is ter of P\·blic Harks and Services, '·lill gladly get in great detail and upon being asked a question on tomorrow i I

!iay 3, 1978 Tape No. 1763 P:RE!'UER :·!VORE-S : wil l give uac tly wbat hap p e~'t!ld i:l th at regar d . Anc by the way, Si r , goin g back t o ca e hon . member's pr aamble , i f the hon . t he Lea der of the Oppositio n d oes ~ o~ know ! r . Davids o:J. f rom Adam, I sugges t he get the :aember Eor LaPoi l e ( ~ . ~ e ary ) to in troduc e aim. )JR. SPEAKER : The aon . Leader of t ~ e Cpp o s~ tion . MR . NEAR"!: The P r emie r has en ter tai ::ed hi.m up in !!ou."lt Scio house. :-ta.. SI:-10.'S : Tha t is righ t . PREMIER HCOP..ES : :::nt err:ainec him? :1R.

S TI. ~ON S: Yes. • {R. :~ !U'.Y: Entertained him • PP.EMIER MOORES: Once. MR. NEARY: A booze party. PRB-(IER ~ORES : I taped him. MR. NEARY: And he taped the bon. gentleman. PREMIER MOORES: Not that night. MR. NEARY: Order, please! The hoD.. Leader of the Opposition recognized for a question. t ,: II f .. ;, " ,, J

May 3, 1978 Tape 1764 PK - 1 MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know - MR. NEARY: Tape the fat man too. MR. W. ROWE: He does not like to hear about the fat man. MR. NEARY: No~he does not like to hear about the fat man. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W. ROWE: His alter ego on the Mainland. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. W. ROWE: Now, Mr. Speaker, if I may - i .~ ,, - ['; PRID:IER ~100RES : That is Nr. Shaheen's friend, yes? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! :-!R. S. NEARY: Mr. Shaheen's friend? MR. W. ROWE: You can ask the Minister of Justice about the I time he went down to Cape Kennedy, Sir, as a guest of Mr.

Shaheen. MR. NEARY: The hon. member has got to be joking! He has got to be joking. When the fat man speaks outside of this Province he speaks for the Premier. MR. w. ROWE: He does not like to hear about the fat man. MR. NEARY: And I will prove that to him next week. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER MOORES: No, you will not. MR. NEARY: Yes, you will. MR. SPEAKER: The han. gentleman to my left and right, on both sides, will co-operate with the Chair. And I will require that there be only one speaker at a time. MR. W. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for that protection.

Now, Sir, I want to make sure that we are not confusing " ~ anything here. I am talking about the Carbonear Hospital, which I understand- t I may be wrong, because I have no knowledge of it directly myself- chere was a $63,000 fixed fee which was granted to, or negotiated with the government, the present Administration, not the former Administration, Sir, that much maligned entity 4 we will change that. as I say, pretty soon - this Administration,$63,000 which was subsequently, according to this T I

May 3, 1978 Tape 1764 Pk- 2 Mr, TN. Rowe: gentleman here in his affidavit renegotiated upwards to $329,778. Now I am asking the Premier if he had any personal knowledge of that? Had he had any involvement in that renegotiatio~ of the fee to go to Scrivener on the Carbonear Hospi.tal? MR. SPEAKE.R: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is absolutely not.

And as I said,any detail of . ''a negotiated contract on consultants which had been abused before,even though the hon. member may or may not be aware of it_ obviously there are a lot of things in the Administration he was not aware of, there are a few things that he may have been aware of, there are a few things that he may have even been responsible for, I am not saying, Sir, anything about that, but what I am saying is regarding any specific thing with the Carbonear Hospital or the Health Sciences Complex certainly I was not personally involved, ~ Cabinet colleagues were not involved, and I will only too gladly,on behalf of government, m&ce t~e detailed information available to the hon.

House. MR. W. ROWE: Another supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition another supplementary. MR. TN. ROWE: So in- what is it?- Clause (11), I suppose, of this famous document - i !P.. S • ~lF~\RY : Article (11) . MR. W. ROWE: Article (11), Clause (11), Section (11), the words mention that the negotiation.,drastic revision was negotiated directly with - he names the Premier of Newfoundland-in his office, along with Mr.

Richard Greene, all resulting from negotiated political contributions. ~~e Premier is denying as I understand that he had any negotiation with Scrivener in his office in the presence of Mr. Greene, or otherwise, concerning this matter, is that the correct situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. ~ I

May 3, 1978, Tape 1764 PK - 3 PREMIER MOORES : Mr, Speaker, that is absolutely correct, And I would also say, by the way?for a gentleman who is quoting from something he has such confidence in, I would strongly recommend that he meet the author. MR. W. ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the Premier is so touchy on this, Sir, I am giving him a chance to clear the air, and to PRE}!IER !-!CORES: I am not. I just think the guy is a nut. HR..NEARY: (Inaudible) outside the House. MR. W.

RmiE: Well I mean spare me from the responsibility, Sir, of having to decide whether hon. gentlemen opposite or anywhere in Newfoundland are all there or not, I mean that is a dreadful responsibility to impose on anybody. Let me ask the hon. the Premier this again. I do not know why the Premier is gettin upset, Sit, because these allegations are made, they are public knowledge and so on, and I am giving him an opportunity now to deny it or confirm it as the case may be. Also in the affidavit, Sir, it says that the Premier visited this Mr.

Davidson in 1972 at the time of the letting of contracts for Carbonear Hospital, in company with Mr. Cyril Babb, if I remember, the affidavit correctly, and that they talked over the awarding of contracts to Babb Construction. Now first let me ask the Premier does he know- P"IT!!IER :mmu:s: Finish the sentence now, MR. W. ROWE: Let me see where is it? Sixteen. Instructed me to award two contracts to Babb Construction. And also to make sure that Babb Construction ge~the structural contract for this hospital. PREMIER MOORES : Go on! Would you finish the sentence. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Cyril Babb and the han.

Frank Moores, Premier of Newfoundland are related, and Mr. Moores is the father-in-law of Mr. Cyril Babb's son. PREMIER MOORES: Yes, okay. Go ahead now. ' ' I l. ~ t I

May 3, 1978 Tape 1764 PK - 4 MR. W. ROWE: The question is did Babb Const ruc tion get any contra cts regarding tile Carbon ear Hospital to the Pt-emier •·s knowledge? MR. NEARY: Without cal l ing public tender. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Pt-emier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker , at that particular time, it was three weeks after the 1972 election, I did meet with Mr . Davidson, I said 1f everything was - MR. NEARY: Was he unstable at the time? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! PREMIER MOORES : I did not know, but I have found out since. Mr . Speaker, I said to Mr.

Davidson at the time,after three weeks of being in office,tilat if everything being equal I thought that local contractors _ and l.'e have since applied i t to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador by the way I I I I

May 3,1978 Tape No, 1765 AH-1 PREMIER MOORES : -should be given first priority if everything being equal. Now, Sir, going to that full statement that the hon. member mentions,aod which he puts great credence in, at that time the Bahb family as I remember were fairly dedicated Liberals but having forgotten that particular subject the reference to Mr. Cyril Babb as the father-in-law of my daughter, they were married two years after the meeting. ~ut that is typical, Sir, of the half truth, and the innuendo and the sickening, nauseous,personal vendettas that are going on here today. SOME HON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. 'N. ROWE: I do not know why we are so touchy on the subject, Sir, it is just a matter of - PREMIER MOORES: You brought it up. MR.W.ROWE: - getting up and telling - of course I brought it up, and, Sir, unless there be any doubt I shall continue to bring it up and continue to question him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will direct the bon. gentleman to my right, and the hon, gentleman to my left not to interfere, One bon. member ask a question at a time and one bon. gentleman answer at a time. Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.W.ROWE: I am not sure if the Premier answered my question or not.

I do not think he did, Sir, I think he got to involved in his own personal matters. Did he say or not whether Babb Construction got these contracts? AN RON. }fEi1BER: Without tender? MR.W.ROWE: Well with or without tender. Does he happen to know whether there was a call for tenders, number one and ; number two, did Babb Construction get one or more contracts in connection with this building?

May 3,1978 Tape No. 1765 AH-2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREJ.'iiER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the allegation in that statement is that I directed it. to go to Babb and that is absolutely incorrect, that is absolutely untrue, I have said it before and I will say it again, the innuendo in that particular statement refers to a great many things and I resent, Sir, the Leader of the Opposition bringing this up.

If he wants to ask a straight question, ask it, but when he starts bringing up the innuendo which he is obviously endorsing, he obviously feels that this is true, I suggest, Sir, that he stick to the facts and ask the questions and not refer to Mr. Davidson and the innuendos that he puts out because I am sure the Leader of the Oppo~ition is above that sort of an attack. MR. W. ROWE: Well I would hope so, Sir, since I was asked directly to read for the public record something which I did not particularly want to read.

I am interested, Sir, lest there be any doubt, not in the Premier's or his families marriages or otherwise, I am not the least bit interested, I find it to be the most boring subject on the face of t~1e earth and let me make this clear. I am wondering whether Mr . Babb of Babb Construction Company, with or without the Premier's instructions or inducements , got a contract or more from Scrivener or from the government without calling public tenders with respect to the Carbonear hospitalZ That was my question, Sir, as alleged in this affidavi~ as it happens. I merely refer to that as a starting point.

The Premier asked me to go into the personal details of his life, I do not want to. NR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier . PRE.l~IER -:-!QORES: The hon. gentleman said that he is very bored with t~e warriages of my family and so on, I am sure he is, I am sure - no I will not say it. The fact is, Sir, that it is of importance to me when it is brought up in this nouse, it is of importance to me when it is brought up as a form and intended in a question in this ... •'· '·

May 3,1978 Tape No. 1765 AH-3 PRE.'1IER MOORES: House and whilst I can get very upset - AN HON m:MBER: You asked for it. PREMIER HOORES: What do you mean,I asked for it? He was quoting a

section of a document and if that is part of it, sure. Let us not get personal in here , let us get down to ~lhere the fact is •. HR. SI!1}!0NS: Physicians heal thyself. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER MOORES: What are you saying? Let me get it straight. You heard the hon. gentleman. PREUIER MOORES: F White. Excuse me, I withdraw that, I apologize, Sir, and I withdraw anything that has been unparliamentary, But I will say this that Mr.

Babb never got a contract on the instruction of me to anybody, to my knowledge he did not get it on the instruction of government to anybody, I suggest, Sir, that any contract he got was through the management c?nsultants. I would assume it was in the normal sense and if it was not that is something that should be brought out, and I assume the same with anyone else in this Province, Sir, To my knowledge there was no wrongdoing and certainly not on my part. MR. SPEAKER: Hon.

Leader of the Opposition. ~IR.W.ROWE: I want the Premier to either answer me yes or no now, if he can or if he cannot will he undertake to get the information. Did Babb Construction get contracts on the Carbonear imspital either through the mediation of Scrivener or otherwise from this government? And if so, Sir, how many? Were they awarded as a result of public tender call or were they merely negotiated or given to Babb or what? Will he get me that information? I ao not interested in what is going on personally or behind the scenes or anything. I would like to have that information. Will he get it for me? i· ~.

I t

:!.:1y 3, 197S Tape No. 1765 HR. SPEAKER: The non. Premier. PREliU:R MOORES: Mr. Speaker , absolutely. I said in the very first question I believe that the Minister of Public Works would get all the. background behind the Self-Scrivener detail on the awarding of the management consultants contract to them, what their responsibilities are, and what contracts they let . Gladly, Sir. That is the responsibility of the governmen t and we are only too glad to provide it . !.

May 3, 1978 Tape 1766 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgee -.Bay d'Espoir followed by the hon. gentleman from Conception Bay South. MR. snmoNs: Mr. Speaker, I, like the Leader of the Opposition, am most interested in having a public inquiry into the Scrivener event, the whole Health Sciences Complex. And I would appreciate it if the Premier would do us the courtesy of confining discussion to that~ because that is what concerns me, and his innuendo is not at all upsetting me except that I wish he would talk about the Scrivener projects, the Carbonear · hospital and the Health Sciences Complex.

Can the Premier indicate to the House whether the party of which he"is the leader ever received a political contribution from the Scrivener firma in Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, it is well known, and I have said many times that yes, the political party I lead have received donations from people purported to be acting on behalf of Scrivener. I would suggest the Liberal Party in Newfoundland have received donations from exactly the same source. AN HON. MEHBER: (Inaudible) PREMIER MOORES: I am sure, but that is beside the point, Sir.

The fact is that being - by the way, as long as the system is like it is in this Province, I would suggest that there are many people who give donations to political parties. I also suggest, Sir, that that s y stem - I agree - should be changed and I think before the next election it will be. And I think that is the proper thing to do. I do not think there is any question about that.

May 3, 1978 Tape 1766 EC - 2 PREMIER MOORES: But, in the meantime, to get back to ~he hon. member's question, it is before the pQlice now where it is being totally investigated. It was looked at by the top officials in our government on the Civil Service level to see if there was any wrongdoing and there was not.

Taking the new police investigation· into consideration, if there is any wrongdoing, of course, Sir, it will be investigated - it will be prosecuted, but I would suggest by way of a red herring just to set up another public inquiry into something that is being totally studied now, I think, would be totally wrong. MR. SIMMONS : A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker,·could the Premier indicate to the House where the Minister of Industrial development is at the present time? Is he out of the Province on government business? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER ~toORES: ~r.

Speaker, the Minister of Industrial Development was one month late in having a very serious eye problem examined which was done yesterday and today in Toronto. He is coming home this evening and will be here as soon as he can. I would gladly say that it is unfortunate that he has had this health problem, unfortunate that he has had this problem for several years, but, Sir, on this side of the House we have sympathy with anyone who is ill and is trying to overcome that illness. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir.

MR. S I:!HONS! Mr. Speaker, we too, of course, have full sympathy for his health problems and have said so I I l I i ! . ~ t ' ! I

May 3, 1978 Tape 1766 EC - 3 HR. SIMMONS: to him on many occasions personally and in this House. Mr. Speaker, is the Premier aware, or can the Premier indicate whether or not the Minister of Industrial Development will be meeting with his either present or former executive assistant, Mr. Terry White, while he is in the Montreal area? MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker. I would doubt it very much in that he could not contact him before he left here. Maybe he will have better luck in Montreal, but I do not think he is looking for him seeing he is in Toronto.

That being beside the point, I understand the police, according to what was circulated yesterday - and I do not know if it is legitimate or not, I have no idea - but I understand that the police from that document have been in touch with him and are keeping an eye on him. I have no idea, Sir, if the Minister of Industrial Development is as well. It is something I just cannot answer. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. UR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. I had indicated I would recognize the hon. the member for Conception Bay South. Of course, the hon. gentleman can always return to a subject. ~IR.

S HiMONS: A further supplementary to the Premier. Can he indicate now for the record, Mr. Speaker: whether indeed, Mr. White has resigned his position, and if so, whether there was an actual letter of resignation, and if so would the Premier be prepared to table that letter of resignation? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. l ~ .. ,. ,. ~ I. l l J

May 3, 1978 Tape 1766 EC - 4 PREMIER MOORES: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, there is no letter of resignation. The fact is, Sir, that there has been no letter of resignation to my knowledge. I would suggest that the executive capacity that the gentleman was in has expired somewhat like his absence.

The fact is, Sir, that, you know, if you cannot find a man you cannot pay him, but that being beside the point as well, I do not think it is necessary because he obviously is not doing the duty for ~•hich he was hired. !:!e cannot speak for the Minister of Industrial Development, but if I could be acting minister for a minute I would say yes, Sir, his term has expired so to speak. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: I agree with the hon. gentleman, Sir, we sympathize with the hon. minister's illness and I have told him so personally on a good many occasions. Would the bon. the Premier indicate who accompanied the Minister of Industrial Development to Toronto? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. .1 !

May 3, 1978 Tape 1767 EC - 1 PREMIER MOORES : No one at government expense, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY; Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member. MR. NEARY: That was not the question, Sir, would the han. gentleman tell us who accompanied the ~-atlister . of Industrial Development to Toronto? - l MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that is a personal question that I would suggest the Minister of Industrial Developm@nt would answer. It is like me asking the han. member who accompanied him to Panama or who accompanied him to Switzerland or Miami or wherever he went.

I do not know; I have no idea. .· MR. NEARY: Or Granada or London or - r PREMIER MOORES: Wherever. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the han. gentleman indicate to the House whether the han. gentleman knows who accompanied the Minister of Industrial Development to Toronto? HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER HOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Captain of Air Canada. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. - MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, is the han. gentleman I aware of who accompanied the minister to Toronto from Newfoundland? f . ~ MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. t PREHIER HOORES: I would imagine, Sir, however many passengers were on the 'plane that were resident in this l I • • , .. <1'--

May 3, 1978 Tape 1767 EC - 2 PREMIER MOORES: Province at the time. MR. NEARY : A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Is the hon. gentleman aware that a big party worker - P.C. Party worker in the person . ' of Mr. Ron Howard, a private detective - - I AN HON. MEMBER: A former policeman. MR. NEARY: - a former policeman - Can the hon. the Premier confirm whether that gentleman accompanied the Minister of Industrial Development to I Toronto1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRE~!IER l100RES: Mr. Speaker, yes, I will answer that gladly. Yes, Mr.

Ron Howard accompanied the hon. minister at his expense to Toronto. T~e fact is - his or the hon. minister's expense, one or the other -the fact is, Sir, that Dr. Farrell, the Minister of Industrial Development, was going up for an eye examination, visiting a hospital, and someone volunteered to go along to give him a hand - no private eye, just a companion on the trip. There was no other reason to go other than as a friend. has got to be insidious. This has got to be something that has a twist to it.

This, Sir, is e x actly the sort of warped question and opinion we are getting from the other side, Sir, and I am sorry, that is not good enough! SOME -:HON. MEUBERS: Hear, hear! HR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Now that we k now who accompanied the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development - we have

May 3, 1978 Tape 1767 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: finally dragged it out of the Premier - would the hon. the Premier indicate whether the Minister of Industrial Development told anybody who told the Premier that the Minister of Industrial Development may be going on to Panama? PREMIER MOORES: What was that again? UR. NEARY: Would the hon. the Premier indicate to the House if he has been told by either one of these gentlemen, the Minister of Industrial Development or Mr. Howard, that afte~ the eye examination they would be proceeding to Panama? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, my source is the hon. minister' ;hom I was talking to f:!.fteen minutes before I came in the House, and -wno was catching tne 'plane at 6:00 P.M. back to Newfoundland. If the hon. member has information from Panama to the contrary he should say so. MR. NEARY: A point of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. I1R. NEARY: For my own protection, Sir, I have to correct what the hon. the Pre~ier just said 1 Tbe information came from Craig Dobbin's brother in conversation with Dr.

Farrell in the men's room in Halifax overheard by another gentleman who happened to be in the terminal at the time. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. SOME . HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege, Sir - SOME' RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! ., ' ' g, '

~l ay 3, 1978 Tape 176 7 EC - 4 PREUIE'R MOORES: ~r. Speaker, to that point of privilege, it is obvious which •ay the hon. member is facing, what happens to him and what hits him when he .gets his information. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh '! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, pleas'r! The point df privilege is not a iatter in which the Chair would h;tV"e to lllake a decision. O.rci .er, please! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: It being Private Me.mbers' Day the adjourned debate on Motion 7. Is the Rouse ready for the question on the amendment? The bon. the member f or Burg e o - Bay d'Espoir. ~UL SIM!iONS: Mr. Speaker, I understood I had adjourned the debate. That is correct, is i t? ·.

May 3, 1978 Tape 1768 PK ~ 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, they are all very tender today,having lost a~other round. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. F. WHITE: Ten in a row! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, - :-JR. !)OODY: (Inaudible) men's room. (Inaudible) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . S ll~ON S: The minister would know all about the men's room. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, if I could have a few words without - HR. DOODY: (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMONS: If I could have a few words, Mr. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible) MR.

SIMMONS: If the han. member for Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr. Doody} could restrain himsel f , MR. DOODY: It is not easy but I will tTY. MR. SIMMONS: _or go to the men's room, if that is what is bothering him right now. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Something is obviously bothering him. Perhaps it is - MR. DOODY: (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMONS: Perhaps it is his proximity - "I i MR .• DOODY: (Inaudible) . :} .. !! MR. SL'!MONS: I can understand , Mr. Speaker, after the performance by his Premier today that he would want to throw up. I wanted to throw up because he never did answer the question, Mr.

Speaker - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). ·t MR. Sll!MONS: about whether - f

May 3, 1978 Tape 1768 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Ron. gentlemen on both sides! I must again insist that hon. members speak one at a time. I do not wish interjections,certainly not those of an unparlfmentary nature 1 but I think any interjections may well serve to, in my opinion, create further disorder. I have an obligation_ not an exclusive one, we all share it-to maintain order in the _people's House. ~ I again ask for the co-operation of all hon. members in that. The hon. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was interrupted in mid-flight as I was about to say that the Premier never did answer the question.about - MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. He does not know what I am going to say. It may be about Labrador for that matter. MR. HICKMAN: We are on an amendment to this resolution, and the amendment is t!"lat the first reci-tal, I thin!<: it is_ or the second recital, the second recital be strj_cken out. And that certainly has nothing to do with the hon. the Premier answering questions, because he has not been asked a question with respect to Labrador. MR.

SIMMONS: I agree! I agree! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman had not finished his sentence. What the hon. Minister of Justice said is correct. It may be that the hon . the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir is referring to a question asked several weeks ago. I mean,he had not finished the sentence, but certainly the point made is that the matter under debate is a specific amendment to a specific resolution, and all hon. members should speak on that. The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I fully intend! to do, and if I can be spared the ·.1arassment from the irresponsible ~inister of Justice for a few minutes . I will get on with the job at hand, namely, the resolution, Mr. Speaker.

May 3, 1978 Tape 1768 Pk ~ 3 MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. SIMMONS: There he goes again, Mr. Speaker. Name him~ Name h:im! If you can find a name for h:im! MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, you know, just let the record show as to who is trying to drag this Rouse down into the gutter. I rose on a point of order which was sustained by the Chair. I · would suggest that it is quite out of order for the hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) to then get up and alleged that that my rising on that point of order is irresponsible. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for BUrgee- Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: As Mr. Speaker himself reminded the House,I had not finished my sentence, There was nothing in the part of the sentence I had been permitted to quote which indicated what the subject matter of the question was about. The minister assumed it was about some questions that were asked today. The Speaker did not rule me out of order. He just pointed out that I should be relevant and I attempted to be that. And in passing,! did not say that the minister was irresponsible in what he had done.

I said he is an irresponsible minister which I believe to be the case. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Obviously,! think,one point is that every hon. member does have the right to raise a point of order. Obviously he has,! think,an obligation to the House to do it with validity, not that the point need always be sustained but with a material or substantial validity. The motion being debated I think ts quite clear to all hon. members. It is the amendment to the resolution and all hon. members,when they speak,will obviously have to speak to that subject. I do not know that I can go further than that. The han. member.

MR. SIMMONS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Last day I just had, I believe, four or five minutes. Perhaps the talJle would be good enough to inform me how much time I have left. I am assuming it is around thirty-five or forty minutes or something close to that. 'l l f £

Hay 3, 1978 Tape 1769 mr- 1 ~ -~. SU~1lNS: The resolution that · we are talking about, ~fr. Speaker, is the resolution moved by colleague, the Leader of·the Opposition,a resolution concerning Labrador, and presently we are on an amendment which would have the effect of remcving certain words. _The amendment was l!lOVed by the member for St. John's East (Hr. }!.arshall) and the words ::he ~•ould have I';,moved are those which relate to the fact that the !~ational Convention of the Liberal Party gave unanimous support to the concept the i~ea embodied in this resolution. Now, Nr.

Speaker, we have heard a lot in recent ~ays about how various members are alleged to be wasting the time of the House. I suppose if you were looking" -for an example of how members waste the time of the House,the classic example, the best example of all is this amendment itself; this amendment. This resolution moved by my colleague,the Leader of the Opposition,is a good resolution because it puts into the public records,assuming the House ·will pass it,it will put into the public records a very definitive and substantive policy on Labrador.

And then at a time when we are deliberating on that very serious question~at a time in this debate when we ~:ere getting some consensus around the House 1 including some members from the opposite side who stood up and said they could support t :1e spirit of the resolution including the rr.en':>er for Henihek 1 ("r. l'.ousseau) the ~· :inister of Labour and c·!anpm-1er for exanpJ.e.

At a tine,, ·:hen we are beginning to getting a consensus a non- partis2n consensus on a very important issue about the cev~lop- ;nent of a very stategic and ir.~portant part of this Province, then l·7e get introduced into some very chilrJ.ish l01~ partisan politics,the very lowest form at a tine when it is not particularly necessary or !varranted. ~low we all play the partisan game in this House from time to time. Y.av I have a quorum, Mr. Speaker, a quorum call. !:P~. SPLAKEP.: ;.Jill t!:e cler!< please count the rouse? .,.here is a quorum. ! i ! i i r I

''ay 3, 1978 Tape 17fl9 D\·! - 2 ~'R. • SPEAKER: The hen. member for Surgeo - Eav d' F. s poir. ~. I' •• SI:'}~ONS: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. The Hinister of Health tells me my pro')lem,and he i~ right .I know my pro blem . His problem is he does not know !-tis problem • . -II .. 1 t • I . ....

}~ay 3, 1978 Tape 1770 DW-1 ~'R. R. SH!MONS: Mr. Speaker, this amendment- AN HC~ . ~'!EM!IER : (Inaudible) ~. "·· SD!!AONS :' Here-~ge go again, Ilere we go again, . Here we go again-all gone for the men 1 s room. We hope your information is as reliable as ours when you come back. SOlo!E HON. ~'IDffiERS : Oh, oh! A.~ RON. ~ER: (Inaudible) MR. R. SIMMONS: Pe ~· rant to know vrho got all this money, }:r. Speaker. }!R. W.~. ROWE: The Jealously Brigade. ~'R. R. STI'i!'1m1S: If I ~gere on the- receiving end of it all I ~v-ould be worried and I would have to go into the men 1 s room more often too.

I would be r1lnning ,I \i'Ould have the runs ~ecause I •,rould be running back and forth to the men 1 s roon all ~~e time if I were on the receiving end of all that money . . MR. SPEAKER (HR. YOUNG) : Order, please! I would a3k the hon. member to be more relevant. He knows the ~ubject of the amendment. The amen~ment is a very vexatious, childish,lmv-do•m,partisan blow to this House, It will remove all reference to the Liberal Party,the party which happens to form the Government of Canada -·and may do again, may do. again, f'.od knows. nt. nnm: for a short time , a very short tim~. T':ere he goes, :·:r.

Speaker, Th!!>re is the "D'innwit" ·back with us again. :·!r. Speaker, this amendment was so unnecessary,and at the same time it is such an example of how H~ get into unnecessary 1 partisan debate in this House. 'lecause it matters not, ~:r. Speaker, who else happens to agree with this particular idea. 1'!1e prearllle to the resolution will not be fort ·:arded to authorities in Ottat•a if the time comes when the will of this House is stated to Cttawa. The essential ingredient is the policy \vhich is contc.ined in the resolution ~ved by the Lead~r of the Opposition. -.!

~fay 3. 1078 Tape 1770 m-1- 2 ~ffi • R • S IM!.·~ONS : And it is tmfortunate, l!r. Speaker, and silly and vexatious thQt the member for St. John's East (}~. Marshall) wouid see fit, v7ould. see the need to move such a silly, partisan,warped motion, Mr. Speaker.Tbe only reason for it can be that the facts in it just do not jiqe with his view of reality,his warped, his jaundiced 'view of the way things are supposed to be according to him.

That is one reason we have the amendment, because the member concerned is so caught in partisan labels that he cannot see past the label'Libera1' 1and if it is 'Liberal' then he assumes immediately therefore it is no good._ It h~s got to be struck out, he cannot stand the idea. ~r. Speaker, how sad it must be to live in a world like that where labels come out in front of you like red flags,where you get uptight,you almost get out of yourself,you almost have an epileptic fit every time you hear the word 'Liberal'. That is the. sad case, Hr. Speaker, with the member for St.

John's East and perhaps with some other members over there~I do not know - but certainly with him because he has demonstra·ted it by putting this resolution down1 or this amendment.

There is another reason for this vexatious,silly,childish resolution and that is that the longer the crowd on the other side can tie this House up on Private ~1ember' s Day, and they do it in various ways on \i'e~nesday- r<~ednesday afternoon is their day for petitions,you lvill notice 1and t~eir day for long ministerial statements,Today was bit of an exception because they are so preoccupied these days with the Scrivener scandal ~'1at they do not have time to 1<rite t~eir speeches 1 let alone read them.

They do not have to find tl-e petitions in their files ,let alone bring them in and present t'lem to the :'ouse. They are just so preoccupied they are so scared 1so panic-stricken, ~r. Speru~er, with this whole Scrivener scandal-and so they should be. If I were sitting on the horns of that particular dilel!lllla,I am sure I lvou.ld be fairly scared 1 fairly mobile as well. ...

• ~y 3, 1978 Tape 1771) Dl~ - 3 MR . SPEAKER: Orde _r, please ! I ;till draw it to the hon. me.mber' s attention ~~ e ·point of relevancy. • A-."1' P.ON . ~ER: The point of what? ~m. . P. . sn~toNs: !:1r. Speaker, you get harassed from eve~ere these days,do you not? Harassment eve~~here . Jobelievable . ~!r . Speake'!:, if ! 1~e re - h, there be is, there he is - 'l'hP hnn. member ,1 •.;ill ask him to be seated. I did hear that it ~o~as indicat~d to me froo what I heard that

May 3, 1978, Tape l771, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Young): the hon. member said he was getting harassment from the Chair. MR. SIMMONS : No, I did not. SOME HON. MEMBERS : No,he did not. MR. SPEAKER '(Young): Order, please! I asked the hon. member if that was indicated to be from the Chair. If he did I would like for him to withdraw it,please. MR. W.N.ROWE: He did not say it. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I did not say anything about harassment from the Chair and I resent the Chair being coached from the other side. MR. SPEAKER (Young) : Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR .• SPEAKER(Young) : Order, please!

I definitely heard the hon. member say he was being harassed. MR. SIMMONS: I did not say that, and I did ' not say from the Chair. MR. SPEAKER(Young): Thank you very much. MR. SIMMONS: If Mr. Speaker thinks that • said from the Chair,I would like Mr. Speaker to wipe that out of his thinking because I did not say from the Chair. :1-".R. SPEAKER(Young): I accept that. Thank you very much. MR. W.N.ROWE: I rise on a point of personal privilege, Your Honour. He was speaking to me, the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). It was a private communication.

It had nothing to do with Your Honour whatsoever, nothing to do with Your Honour. It had to do with members on the other side, Sir. As a member of this House it seems to me a little bit precipitate, a little bit prejudicial on Your Honour's I

May 3, 1978, Tape 1771, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: part to be leaping to your feet and to be assuming that my colleague is saying something which it to the detriment, or not respectful to the Chair. It is prejudicial, Sir, and I would, Sir, ask that in the future, with all due respect to Your Honour, that we be a little bit careful and a little bit more certain about what we accuse hon. - MR. SPEAKER(Young) : Order, please! MR. W.N.ROWE: - of what wet< accuse hon. members of - MR. SPEAKER (Young): Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order! MR.

W.N.ROWE: - before we draw conclusions which may not be warranted. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege, whether it is a personal point of privilege or privilege of this House, that is not a breach of any privilege. The point that the hon. Leader of the Opposition brings up is foolish, vexatious and stupid and should be stricken from the record. There is no point of privilege here. As I understand it, and I heard and listened attentively to what was being said, the Speaker asked the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir whether, in fact, he had certain words that were directed at the Chair.

The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir said, No, I did not. The Speaker accepted the words from the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir and that ended the issue. There is no point of privilege before the Chair. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Young) : Order, please~ I feel I am ready to rule on that question. I think it is probably more a point of explanation. The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir

May 3, 1978, Tape 1771, Page 3 . -- apb MR. SPEAKER{Young): indicated to the Chair that in no way were his remarks directed at the Chair. I accepted his word and I would ask the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir to please continue. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. LUNDRIGAN: A question of privilege. MR. SIMMONS: Who is abusing the House now? MR. WHITE: That is right. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege. There was a situation which developed here which has to be rectified.

The member allegedly made a remark, Your Honour raised the issue, the hon. member said he had not made such a remark, Your Honour accepted and the Leader of the Opposition got up and did something I have not seen done since I have been in politics, that is to chastise Your Honour, indicate that Your Honour had made prejudicial rulings. MR. J. CARTER: Hear, hear! MR. LUNDRIGAN: That chastised Your Honour to be very careful in the future when interjecting. And, Mr.

Speaker, I recognize that he got beat to a pulp today in the House, but he is not - get up and abuse me, get up and abuse the member for Green Bay, but the hon. member, the Leader of the Opposition,has no right to get up here and chastise Your Honour and put him in a position of weakness. MR. DINN: MR. LUNDRIGAN: Hear, hear! The House - I suggest that he get up, not because His Honour interjects, and withdraw what he just said to His Honour. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER(Young): Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.N.ROWE: Hear, hear! I recognize the hon. the Sir, a point of privilege has

May 3, 1978, Tape 1771, Page 4 -- aph MR. W.N.ROWE: been raised which I should treat with the contempt wbich it deserves and not say anything, l:>ut one is forced, I suppose, to do so, to get up. As Your Honour well knows, and a·s Your Honour fully accepted at the time, as Leader o.f the Opposition, Sir, I rose to draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that, and there was a presumption. on Your Honour's pa~ that my hen. friend had said some- thing prejudicial or disrespectful concerning the Chair.

I got 'Q.p to say, Sir, that perhaps this may have given the wrong impression, that to myself and to people elsewhere it tnay appear to be prejudicial to my hon. <JOll.eague and that in the future we ~;bould be careful about making . I . j t

May 3, 1978 Tap,e No. 1772 NM- 1 MR.. W. ROt.IE : ass~tions, or presumptions, either Your Honour or members of the House, because Your Honour is a member of this House, making presumptions or assumptions concerning remarks made by han. members without first ascertaining what in fact was said. Now, Sir, if there is anything wrong with that then it can only be found wrong by an incredibly small mind. It is my duty, Sir, to help protect the privileges of the Bouse and the order of the House like any other member.

I do not resent members getting up opposite on points of order or privilege, but Sir, I do insist on making sure that I, and my colleagues particularly, are fully protected and full respected in this hon. House by the Chair and by other members. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. W. ROWE: Now, Sir, are we going to continue - MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! Order, plea.e! I feel that we are getting into a debate on a point of privilege.

I feel that it is not a point of privilege, it is more or less a point of explanation and so I will ask the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) to pleaae continue. MR.. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR.. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. Order, please! A point of privilege. Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. I was sitting here listening to the - MR. SIMMONS: Additional ruling. MR.. MORGAN: speech being made by the bon. gentleman from Bay d 'Espoir (Mr. Si=ons), There was absolutely no co111111ent I

May 3, 1978 Tape No. 1772 NM- Z MR. H:>RGAN: whatsoever from this side of the House of Assembly, none whatsoever, no harassment, . 110ne; there was no interjection, none whatsoever, Hansard will show that. The hon. the Speaker, Sir, you did indicate to the hon. gentleman from Bay d 1 Espoir that you would call him to order to be relevant to the debate. That was the only interjection, the only interjection in the debate on the speech being made by the hon. the member for Bay d'Espoir - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I feel the hon. minister is raising the same point of privilege and I would ask the hon. member for Bay d'Espoir to please continue. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker . - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, do I have the floor or do I not? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: - a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege has been raised. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, as a member of this House, I think it is intolerable for your decision and for your order at any time to be called in this House,should never be questioned. MR. NEARY: Name him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: There is a method to be used in questioning the order from the Chair. -Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I heard, without any question, the question from the speaker who was then speaking, determining that it was narassment from the Chair when you called him to order. - i

May 3, 1978 Tape No. 1772 NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that if we cannot be called to order by Your Honour in any debate, when we are irrelevant to debate, we are out of order in debate - MR. F. WHITE : - Throw-hilll out. MR. MORGAN: - it is your order, Mr. Speaker, who will then c•ll us to order. MR. NEARY: That is ll - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the bon. member to my right to be quiet durin~ debate. MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, what happened this afternoon was that you had called a certain speaker, in this case the bon. gentleman from Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) who was then in debate, you called him to order and asked him to be relevant to debate; at that aame time the bon. gentleman said he was bein2 harassed from the Chair. Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that _ that is a question of privilege of this House. It is your authority, Mr. Speaker - MR. SIIDIDNS: You do not - MR. MORGAN: - to call myself or any other hon. gentleman in this House to order if they are not relevant to debate or out of order. Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is it is totally out of order for any member to say he has been harassed from the Chair when he is bein~ called to order.

That is the question of privilege of this House. MR. SPEA..'<ER: Order, please! I do not think it is a point of privilege. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Chairman. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I ~ready to rule. I did ask the han. member to explain his remarks. He explained them fully, in the opinion of the Chair, and I am quite satisfied with his explanation and I would ask the han. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) to please continue with his speech. MR. SL"IMONS: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I ~-

May 3, 1978 Tape No. _1772 NM- 4 SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAPR: Order, please! MR.. SIMMoNS : Mr, Speaker, the - MR.. W. BDWE: Yes, finally. MR.. NEARY: Wasting the time of the Bouse, MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, temptatiou arise on points of privilege of my own but we have seen what c:an happen with points of privilege in the past few minutes.. A word. of explanation to the House; I did not say anything about the Chair at all. MR.. NEARY: Right. MR. SIMMONS: I was harassed by the member for Mount Pearl arena and the beer baron from Bonavista South, but otherwise, Mr.

Speaker, there was no harassment from the Chair ud I coufi:rm that for the record, Now, Mr. Speaker, to the motion. The last few minutes have illustrated the venom that is behind this amendment. 'l'ltls amendment would strike out the word 'Libera.!' becaua .e everybody over there just about, there are a few exceptiou, there are a few souls over there, ~r. Speaker, who are not on the. horns of the dilemna, f ! l ~ - c

Hay 3, 1978 Tape No. 1773 JH - 1 MR. SU!HONS: who are not losing sleep these nights, not losing sleep over other events and can still see clearly a few of them. The most of them, Mr. Speaker, see a red flag every time they hear the word 'Liberal.' They see it in a resolution. They see a red flag. That is the motivation behind the member for St. John's East because they have come to associate the word Liberal with exposing them for what they are. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SH!MONS: They have come to associate the word Liberal with that racket that has gone on in Public Works, Mr.

Speaker, with- SOME RON. t1KMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SIMMONS: with police investigations, with the Scrivener project. MR. HICKMAN: Point of Order, ~·r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has arisen. :m.. HICI<MAN: To a point of order: Your Honour ruled the han. gentleman out of order quite some time ago and ordered and directed when he was embarking upon the same lines to be totally relevant. It is obvious that the member ~or Burgee-Bay d'Espoir is totally and absolutely and unpardonably disregarding Your Honour's ruling. }ffi.. W.N. ROWE: To that point of order, Sir.

Here is another example of the harassment the hon. member was talking about earlier which caused specious points of privilege to be raised - completely useless and specious and time-wasting points of privilege which they were defeated on. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is being relevant. The member for St. John's East has brought in an amendment which has the effect of depriving my resolution of one of its

preambles concerning Labrador and concerning the Liberal Party of Canada. Now my han. friend here is indicating his reasons and his opinion why he thinks that particular amendment is being brought before the House and why we are debating it. Now, Sir, if that is not relevant to the reason for the debate on the amendment then nothing is relevant because what is certainly most relevant on an amendment is why the amendment is being debated,

May 3, 1978 Tape No. 1773 JH - 2 HR. W.N. ROWE: what the hon. members are trying to accomplish. We are not trying to impute any base motives or anything but they are trying to accomplish, why they are doing it, the political reasons - partisan or otherwise. Surely, Sir, this is the right subject for debate on an amendment. And my friend from Burgee- Bay d 1 Espoir is being perfectly relevant, as relevant as you can be on this particular ~endment to that resolution, Sir. HR.

SPEAKER: The gist 1of the amendment is to delete a certain recital which in general has a reference to the Liberal Party and resolutions that were passed at a meeting thereof. Argument as to why that reference to the Liberal Party should be deleted or allowed to stay would in my opinion be within the area of relevance. The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. l·!R. SI11110NS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for your ruling.

I began speaking at about twenty-five after four and let the record show that for twenty minutes I have been interrupted on four occasions on points of order and privilege by the Minister of Justice who for some reason - ~IR. HICKMAN: A point of order, ~. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A point of order. HR. RICKHAI.'l: For the record only; only on two occasions. And let the record also show that the hon. gentleman called a quorum call when his own members walked out on him. Thank you, 11r. Speaker. SOHE RON. l·IE!1BERS: Hear! Hear! HR. SPEAKER: There is no point before the Chair to make a decision on.

The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. i•!R. si::IHotls: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister because he does illustrate exactly what I was trying to state that he is bent on interrupting as much as he can. He obviously has a reason for doing that,and it is part of the reason I was discussing a moment ago that every t~e that - ~d particularily~there is nothing worse, Mr. Speaker, than a - the expression is nothing worse than a reformed -' I • ..

~lay 3, 1978 Tape No. 1773 JM- 3 MR. SDJNONS: drunk, nothing worse than a reformed politican, nothing worse than a person who has changed horses in midstream. He becomes so HR. RICJ.Q-IAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege. This gutter language that is coming from - MR. SIMMONS: Gutter language! Gutter languagel MR. HICKMAN: Gutter language that is coming from the hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir in a deliberate,malicious attempt to destroy this House and invade the personal privileges of every hon. member of this House.It is totally in violation of the rules and I seek the protection of the Chair.

NR. SPEAKER: The hon. member. MR. SIMHONS: On that point, ~tt. Speaker, I was struggling for a term. There is another term other than nothing worse than a reformed drunk but there is something in the vernacular, a little expression which implies that a person who switched parties or changed his religious affilitation or changed his cultural and everyday habits becomes very evangelical in the opposite direction. And I was not implying at all the minister was drunk - insober in some of his judgements,but that is another issue. But, ~~. Speaker, the man has been known to be a Liberal.

He ran for the leadership of the Liberal Party as I can attest. He is now a good Tory and I say there is nothing worse ti1an a reformed drunk in that context. g " r I. -I ! -II .I ,.

r'ay 3, 1978 Tape 1774 DW - l HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must draw to the attention of hon. members on all.sides the essential rules of debate.~'ay,page 42?,states t!lat "It is inportan t to guard against all appearance of person<'.lity in debate," a rule ;1hich has not always been fulfilled, And also abusive 'I and insulting language should be avoided by members on bo~h sides. I am not referring here to the type of procedure where an hon. member might take F.=tception to a specific word. There are a list of words unparliamentary.

Those listed are not particularly helpful,and there was authority that whether the matter is on a list or not on a list is not,the determining point. ~fuat I am speaking about is the more general area of what is generally considered courtesies that hon. members owe one another,including ~~ose whocr they sit opposite. And I think the general regulation and statement of the rule in :1ay, page 430 sums it up and t!!at is, "Abusive and insulting :2imguage of a nature likely to create cisorder," and I would ask all hon. members to bear that in my ~ind in participation in their debates.

The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir. ~fR. R. SI:~!ONS: Thank you, ~!r. Speaker. I do want to get on because I have only got ten minutes or so left and there are some things I w·anted to say. The minister had mentioned that I <ras deliberatly trying to destroy the House .

That itself is substance for a point of privilege,but I will not raise it because it is so vexatious and silly that it is not worth dealing tdth ,I can only tell the House in good faith that I am not trying to destroy the House and I have asked them to judge for themselves of the minister's actions in the past fe1J ~inutes on the same subject. Now, ~!r. Speaker, there is really, ~!r. Speaker, nothing so evangelical,so fervent . about soberity as a reformed drunk.

There is nobody so evangelical and fervent a'>out a political persuasion as he vrho has jumped the fence and got into the opposite political persuasion, !Ir. Speaker.

Hay 3, 1978 Tape 1774 NR. S. NEARY: A turncoat. MR. R. SU'l'IO!.YS: And that is part of the reason here why we are getting such a bitterly partisan stance from the other side on this subject of whether we should remove the word Liberal. from the resolution. Because it is a red flag, ~lr. Speaker, it is a reminder of all you stood for before you went astray or got on the straight and narrow, as the case may be. It is a reminder of things you wanted t.o for!!;et ~that once you ~•ere part of all you are now conde=ing .It is a reminder that now, ~r.

Speaker, you have dmm to a science,do~vn to a fine science 1a real fine art,all the tactics t~at you accused ycur predecessors of· practicing. AN HON. ~·ffiE!t: (Inaudible) l!R. R. sr-mONS: It is a red flag, Hr. Speaker, it is a reminder of what you do not ~rant to ':>e remi~ded of. You vrish you could put it behind you, you wish you did not . exist.And then the Leader of the Opposition has the gall, the audacity to come into the House and put the wo~d Liberal in .print right before you so ;ou got to see it every ;·time you open your little Order Paper. What a complete insult! All '!.ON. ~'E~~ER : ~. R.

SL~mNS: The hon. ~inister of Justice - What insolence that the member for T1rlllingate would have the gall to do a thing like that to we people who want to forget, 1qho '~ant to forget that the whole thing exists! uho do not want to be reminded that the ':'!ord Liberal rr.eans you cannot las':\ out your money in ~ublic 1•1orks to your buddies without contracts ~~ymore. It reminds you of that. Hear, hear! .•!R HI~IDSOR: Pid you br ing i n the Pub l ic T~nder !.ct ? ~. R. SI't'!''ONS: ~: o, !~r.

Sfiea.l<er, I did :tot \, rin g in the Public Tender ActJmd would to r,od the Public Tender ~ct -~pplied to tne '~ount Pearl Arena ,the member ~•ould not be in the :!less he is in tocl<>.y . ' ..

May 3, 19.76 "!'ape 1774 ~!R. SPEJ\.KE"R: Order, please!. Or der, please! I must require t~e hon. gentleman to wit hdraw h1s last statement. Order, please! :Then the Chair :l nterposes ~ h on. meubers would assist in the business of the Rouse if they did not interject snd let ~he matter between tbe Chair and the han . member ~is - a - vis whom the interjection is taken place . !1on. r::ember. Thank you , !!r. Speaker , I certainly withdraw the inference as directed by Jlr. Speaker. ~1< - 3 - ! . . I I ~ ' I t I 1 I

-· May 3, 1978 MR. SIMMONS: AN liON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: Tape No. 1775 , I withdrew the inference. (Inaudible). NM- 1 I see. Well, Mr. Speaker, the word Liberal to that hon. crowd over there, Mr. Speaker, has all the characteristics of the traditional red flag. MR. li. COLLINS : No doubt about it. MR. SIMMONS: It has got to be a red one, eh? It definitely is a red flag. The choice of colours is good. The Minister of Health now knows the colour of the flag in front of the bull,and why should the bull not know the colour of the flag in front of the bull, Mr. Speaker, shooting all the bull he does? MR. H.

COLLINS: Do not turn me on. MR. SIMMONS: The red flag for them, Mr. Speaker. It is a reminder that no longer can they look after their buddies with their slush fund in Public ~arks. No longer, Mr. Speaker, can they do the thin~s up at the Health Sciences Complex that they got away with, or thought they got away with 0 Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Mr. Speaker, I only have a minute or so left and there are so manv thin2s of substance beside the vexatious motivation behind this amendment, so many things of substance that need to be said about the main motion itself.

But once we get rid of the amendment perhaps some of us will be back again, Mr. Speaker, because it is obvious now that the people on the government side of the House do not want the Nordsee resolution ever, ever, ever to see the li2ht of day. They have not made their minds up on it, They cannot get their heads together on it,and the longer they can put off private resolution number two, the better· for them and I predict when we dispense with this amendment they will come in with some other amendment, equally vexatious, aimed at something else in this resolution which has nothing to do with the substance of

Mav 3, 1978 Tape No. 1775 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: resolution itself. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I moved a motion concerning the situation in Quebec and concerning the Freedom Road. As it was not considered urgent at the time 1 yesterday, this is the first opportunity in which I have had the time to speak on it.

Whether there is an amendment,or whatever it is in front of the House~ or whether the members opposite in the government consider I am wasting their time, or the time of the House, I intend to have my say on tbe matter. Mr. Speaker, the amendment here that we are debating concerns the introduction of the words "Liberal Party" into this resolution.

I think the amendment is totally facetious in many ways and I intend to show so, not by partisan talk back and forth at members but by discussing the situation as we see fit in Labrador, a situation which I think is very grave, and a situation in Labrador West which may very soon explode into proportions which we caanot contain. Yesterday I indicated that the Quebec Government, the Provincial Government of Quebec are extremely interested and extremely keen on developing this road into Labrador West • .

I should also indicate that I believe that it is through the neglect of this government in the last two to three years that we are away behind, At least even if we managed to start the road now we would be at least two to three years behind - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible}. MR. STRACHAN: -The minister can stand afterwards and defend. Two to three years behind because I have belief that what is occurring is that the Provincial Government of Quebec, the Quebec Government, have territorial asnirations and in any civilized country the way to obtain these territories is not by war but is by economic and physical

May 3, 1978 Tape No, 1775 NM - 3 MR. S'rBACHAN: links. And what is occurring here is that the Quebec Government very carefully, very cunningly, and we cannot- fault them for that, the Quebec Govenment are looking after their"Province well.

Levesque is doing very well in looking after the Province and their aspirations and be. greedy as they may be, but we believe that what they are intending to do is to either neutralize the Labrador CitY - Wabush area as a Set"Vice centre and re1110ve that to Fermont, which will negate almost all the Bartlett Enquiry has produced, or they will make the economic and physical ti.es of Labrador be so strong with the Province of Quebec that whatever moves we make on our part we will be constantly struggling behind in ord.er to try to make them believe that we are a.t last paying some attention to them.

The Labrador CitY - Fe:r:m.ont Highway is paved, of course • You can drtve to FeDDOnt. I I J -~

May 3, 1978 Tape 1776 EC - 1 MR. STRACHAN: And I did have information yesterday that the striking workers of Quebec Cartier Mining operation with equipment from the company are pushing the road from Fermont to Gagnon, a distance of forty miles from both ends. The Gagnon to Fire Lake road Fire Lake owned by Sidbek - is paved highway, and the sixty miles of road from Fire Lake.to Manic 5, is now let yesterday, apparently, a contract to St.

Lawrence Construction Company by the provincial government of Quebec,with what federal involvement in the funds I am not sure, but be that as it may, it is quite in order for Quebec to look for the same kind of cost sharing arrangements. That highway is now in the process of being constructed. And then from Manic Five one can go to Baie c~ on the St. Lawrence on to the Trans-Canada Highway. It is estimated that by July or August one can drive from Labrador West by a four by four straight through toBaie comeau on the Trans-Canada Highway and on to Montreal.

And the talk - I do not know the distances, I just know the distances of the roads which will need to be done -our-basic argument is that Levesque has made his statement that it will be finished by Fall and paved by next year, so the Labrador City and Labrador West people will then have a physical and economic link. And the people in Labrador West are concerned and upset because they feel there has · been tremendous neglect on the part of this Province. They feel isolated, and many people in Labrador do.

Many times it goes beyond just pure isolation and frustration, but they feel that in many cases they have been neglected - in the last three or four years when the Freedom Road was talked about - because now the ;: d

Hay 3, 1978 Tape 1776 EC - 2 MR. STRACHAN: Freedom Road has gone West, and the Freedom Road will be West,and whatever countervailing forces we bring in now we will always be behind to try to get the Freedom Road - which is no longer F·reedom because the Freedom will now be West - the road to lead to the East to Goose Bay.

And we are deeply concerned about this because we feel very strongly that it is all part of a development scheme, an economic colonization of Labrador by Quebec,which advertises the Torngat Hountains as the Quebec Alps, which show no borders separating Quebec and Labrador, which is prepared to discuss air freight subsidies with Quebec air companies to supply the Labrador Coast, which is interested in getting into other areas in Labrador West and making economic and physical ties with even changes of company names in the Wabush area and Labrador City area and to French titles.

The whole thing is economic colonization. MR. HICKMAN: Is the hon. gentleman suggesting that a company incorporated in Newfoundland has changed its name to a French company? - incorporated under the laws of Newfoundland? MR. STRACHAN: No, what I am suggesting here and what we have ev1dence of is that companies are coming in from Quebec,operating in Labrador City-Wabush in French only,and their titles, their letterheads, their form letters and so on are all in French. There is no English and we talk about bilingualism. There is no English. MR. HICKMAN: That is right. HR.

STRACHA~T: And what we are stating is that more and more of this is moving in and people see it as an insidious move into Labrador West, and I would say that this will continue- that with this road then, obviousl y,businesses would be foolish to consider expensive air freight operations r i 1 jl • ,.

May 3, 1978 Tape 1776 EC - 3 MR. STRACHAN: or any other operations in which the costs are higher when they can deal directly with Quebec. HR. HICKMAN: There are co~panies doing business in Labrador City who will correspond only in French, is that correct1 MR. STRACHAN: We have co~panies who are dealing - yes, that is right - corresponding in French, whose letterheads are all in French,operating in Labrador West. MR. HICKMAN: If I wanted to write this co~pany in Labrador City,would they adopt the attitude that is adopted in the Province of Quebec, that if I write them in En~lish they will not respond to me1 MR.

STRACHAN: As I understand it, but I would suggest that I will certainly obtain a copy - MR. HICKHAN: Yes. MR. STRACHAN: - or I could yield - MR. W. N. ROWE: I believe I have a copy on file, Hr. Speaker, that somebody sent to me, if I can pick it up, which has pure French in the letterhead and nothing else and the bod~ of the letter is in French - MR. HICKMAN: Yes, that is the part - I do not understand. aR. W. ~T. ROWE : - and the address is Labrador City or Wabush in Labrador - and that is probably legal I and so on, but the point is being made that it is not in·

f) English - the letterhead is not in English. Psychologically, r at least, it is a pure and simple assertion that French is the language here. And I think it had to do with the giving and taking of credit by one of the supermarkets or stores in the area - that was, I think, the subject matter

May 3, 1978 Tape 1776 ec - 4 MR . W. N. ROWE: of it. And the letterhead was French and the communicat ion i tself was in French with no English. I thi.nk that is the point, is it not? MR. STRACHAN: That is it. The point I am making is that I am not in terested in the legality of it. What I a .m stating is that this economic colonization, as I call it, is already underway and is proceeding ·). fairly fast. And I argue very strongly when I see this all the time . I 1- •

May 3, 1978 Tape 1777 IB-1 MR. STRACHAN: when Nain becomes to Simpsons Sears,for instance, Nain, Quebec; when Goose Bay and Labrador City become Labrador City and Goose Bay, Quebec by national companies; when we do business with many companies and will receive all our mail as addressed to Quebec, then what I am suggesting is that the whole idea 1slowly,over a period of time,to have your te=itorial aspirations satisfied through economic and physical lengths and economic colonization.

What we are arguing basically is that ~•e feel that, I certainly do feel,that in the last three or four years-~nd that is all the political life that I can talk about; before that we never even had radios so I never knew what was going on - in the last three or four years we feel that many of the commitments which have been made to the people in Labrador which we are going to make them part of this Province have not been lived up to. We are behind Quebec. DR. J. COLLINS: Would the hon. member permit a question. MR. STRACHAN: Sure. DR. COLLINS: I understand the han. member's particular concern at this time.

He has many concerns which one can certainly understand. But I think his particular concern now is regarding the development of a road link from the Labrador City-Wabush ~rea West. Now one can understand the implications of that, Jut I wonder if the han. member would develop it further. What is his remedy? Is he against that road and,if so, how can we possibly prevent this,if that is the point,or does he have some alternative remedy for it? Because my understanding of the resolution that we are debating is that a road from Labrador,connecting Labrador with the rest of Canada~is thought to be a desirable thing.

MR. STRACHAN: I did not intend to be purely negative as an Opposition member and stand here. What I was intending doing was getting down to some solutions which I thought maybe could come into place. What I am stating here is the case, first of all, as we see it1 and then later on possibly I would like to suggest-~ecause there is more than just this road which is involved 1 there is also a major discussion now - I !' " - t L- j t.

•, May 3, 1978 Tape 1777 IB-2 MR. STRACHAN: in Quebec of another railroad which will bypass totally Labrador City and Wabush to go around to Schefferville. There are also discussions of moving the whole Ungava area and developing the whole Ungava area where there are rich minerals as well or opening up that whole area. What I am suggesting here is that this is all part of an overall package, development package, by the Province of Quebec.Obviously we cannot object to it. Obviously what Quebec is doing is looking after their own legitimate concerns and we cannot obviously object.

What I am stating is that we are behind. I would like then to get into my discussion,certainly but if the minister wishes to ask me I am quite prepared to yield. MR. HICKMAN: The other thing I want to ask the hon. gentleman is this. Several years ago in this - I have to confess this, something that has been sitting very lightly with me - several years ago in the 1960's there was a resolution passed in this House i~ compliance with a request from the then Prime Minister of Canada, the late Mr. Pearson, making this House bilingual.

Now if this House accepts that position, you know, endorses the two language concept, how are we going to deal with this problem in Labrador City with respect to the use of the French language in correspondence, etc.? MR. STRACHAN: I sympathize with the minister in his dilemma about the use of the language or what language we will use here. I am not interested in an objection to a language being used, French being used or any other language for that matter being used in Labrador West,as long as I do not see behind it this economic colonization which I think is behind it.

Our message is not to object to the French people using the French language or the Inuit people using Inuktitut. My objection is that behind this there is an insidionR ulan. When we see our t:1ail as Nain Quebec, when we see all this whole conglomeration of things occurring, when we see the Torngat Mountains being advertised all across North America for late Winter skiing as the Quebec Alps,it is these kind of things that I object to and I think that the whole thing comes together as a package. But what I am concerned about and have stated - j I l 1- i !' f. 1\ ! ' ;·

May 3, 1978 Tape 1777 IB-3 MR. HICKMAN: }tay I make one more suggestion? MR. ROUSSEAJf : (~udibie) because I would want to ask one question. Does the bon. member; and I know he would agree with 111e 100 per cent and t would think he would want to say it because I do not wattt to read it:,and I would not want anybody on the Island part of the Provillce to read it, that the people of Labrador are so weak that we would ever let that happen. And he is one of the people of Labrador and he knows what I am asking. And I knows haw • he feels about it. I know be would want to say it. MR. STRACHAN: Yes, absolutely.

I n f act,the reason why I was talking previously, I think a month ago,about this question~ I raised it then and the reason why t am talking now is, of course, I do not think there is any one person who I have ever met in Labrador who wants it to happen. In fact a petition- AN RON. MEMBER: Or will let it. MR. STRACHAN: That is right, or will le.t it happen. And the talk :i,s all we are going to stand on the border With our rifles and so on and we are going to keep them. otlt. But the point is· that colonization is an insidious method nowadays ·. 'I • l • I

May 3, 1978 Tape No. 1778 .m- 1 MR. STRACHAN: It is done in civilized countries, not by war or by starting an uproar. If it is cheaper for me as a businessman to do my ·dealings with the province there. If for a holiday I no longer have to fly out at high expense and I can drive my car there, if I can get my goods brought in, my family, my furniture instead of paying $5,000 or $6,000 for my furniture and therefore the whole thing is that over a period of time if we can shift the mood West to Quebec and not I believe at a deliberate policy of Quebec~ that is what I am stating.

It is not just so happens that Quebec is looking forward to only developing its own province. It is a definite policy of the present Quebec government and I think of all Quebec governments before that, whatever their political affiliation, and I think that this is what they are attempting to do and it is a serious, serious question. }lay I ask the hon. gentleman one more question more because I would like him to evolve his arguments. I do not disagree at all with this insidious- if insidious is the word- but the ambitions of the Province of Quebec.

Another thing that annoys me and I find very offensive is that I have seen it, for instance~ on maps and travel pamphlets prepared by particularily the nation of France showing all of Labrador as part of Quebec. And it seems to me that there should be, whenever that appears, a very violent protest on the part of the Government of Canada through their Ambassador in ~1atever the offending nation is. But let us not think that that scheme is restricted just to the Province of Quebec and tl~t they are not being aided and abetted, because they are. MR.

STRACHAi.~: ay argument with the minister is basically this on that point that he raised,that I have in this last two and a half years in this House,or three years in this House,brought up here questions of advertisements, questions that the government have, for instance, talking about an island province. But the reason why I brought these up is not because I enjoy asking tile Minister

Nay 3, 1978 Tape No. 1775 JM- 2 MR, STRACHAN: of Tourism a question that why do you advertise in Maclean's Magazine that we are an island province. My argument is not because I am objecting to the Hinister of Tourism. What I am stating is · that Labrador is not a Sinai Desert which we are going to argue over, that we are not Egypt and Israel and we are in between.

My arguments in. pointing out these things - My arguments with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is that we must show concern that we are a province and that if we negate that, if we are careless in speech in which we talk about an island province or we talk about Ne~vfoundland only, the argument of an inclusion awkward as it is and the hyphenated name for Labrador being included long as it is,the argument for it is that carelessness of speech people believe to be carelessness of mind and if it is carelessness of mind then people feel that taey do not belong anywhere and if they do not belong anywhere well we might as well do business with Quebec.

MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. STRACHAN: And that is · the basic argument that why we are caught here is that here we have a move and a definite, I would call it insidious - I see it in the Quebec Inuit Association. I could give an example last week, a very personal example but I do not wish to in this House because it involves personalities, involving Quebec Inuit people. They use the name Inuit. AN RON. MEl!BER: The Quebec Inuit people,do they speak English? They want to talk English.

They wish to talk English but there is an argument on just now about the use of Inuktitut and French in Quebec because they want to use Inuktitut and English because English is the general language of commerce and by adopting French,or being forced to have French as their second language,or first,whatever we want in commercial use, they are being forced in many ways to adopt French. I am not interested so much in that argument there. But what I am deeply concerned about and why I am raising this matter and why I think at this time that we should l t ~ r : !~ ;~ I .. •

11ay 3 , 1978 Tape tio. 1778 JM- 3 MR. STRACHAN: address ourselves with a major development plan to cherish the essence of the resolutiOJJ. that we have to in order to count.ervail the Quebec forces that we cannot think of balidaid approaches to a freedom roaci going to Labrador City or Wabush. We cannot think of just fill:l.Ilg in a few potholes and a bridge across the rivez:s evecy spring when they are washed out or culverts being put m. We cmmot think that way. We have to move urgently, quickly as l: have said here for the last two and a half years be.cause it is fundamentally important.

Not one pe.rso.n that I know of, one Quebecer that is, in Labrador wants to have anything to do with any political affiliation with Quebec. Most of them are people from the Island part of the Province in the Labrador West area who bav~ been living there fifteen or twenty years. I. I~ I~ t

May 3, 1978 Tape No. 1779 NM- 1 MR. STRACHAN: Their ties are still very strongly here and the reason why they got the petition up of 2,000 names in a few days, in a town which is virtually a ghost town at the moment, is because they feel so strongly about it, but they feel there has been neglect and they are being frustrated. This road here from Ferment to Gagnon is bein~~: carried out by Quebec striking workers, using Quebec Cartier mining equipment with the blessing of the government to underwrite any costs.

The Labrador West people offered to do the same and they feel, the minister can argue agai~st it or not, but they feel, according to the information I have, that they had offered this before in this Province but it was not treated seriously. That is their argument as they placed it to me. They offered to do the road,for instance,from Labrador West - MR. MORGAN: Whose government are you talking about, the Quebec Government or the Federal Government? Thereis a question there. MR. STRACHAN: There is a real question here which I have asked.

In fact 1 one person is trying to get it from me because this information I have was only found out because there were pickets at Ferment and pickets at Gagnon and nobody knew the road was being pushed through from both ends, And there was only a Quebec helicopter pilot who was flying there and now I have asked for him to take the CBC from Labrador West down to see the road oecause it has been going on there and nobody could get past the pickets to see what construction was underway. My argument then basically is that is a move_ it is a move also to negate the Be.rtlett Enquiry.

It is a move to leave out Labrador City with an industrial park. It is a move to try and shift it over to Fermont 1 so that even if we do have the industrial park,Seven Islands will be dealing with Ferment. I l I ~ I' f ... 1 ' ~ t r I

May 3, 1978 Tape No. 1779 NM- 2 MR. HICKMAN: Did the hon. gentleman say he is trying as well to get information as to whether there is Government of Canada money in construction of that road? MR. STRACHAN: I am trying first of all to find out whether there is Q~ebec Provincial Government .money ~nto ~he striking workers being used to build a highway, I am trying to find that out,number one. Number two, what the cost ahariug arrangement is between the Quebec Government and Ottawa for this road, if there is any, or what it is. I have no arguments. I am not arguing.

If Quebec manages to get a cost sharing agreement and it is ninety-nine - one per cent, that is well and good for them. MR. RICKMAN: But it is very difficult for the Government of Canada to - MR. STRACHAN: Absolutely. But what I am ~tating is that I feel that we have not been sitting pushing th:i.s as much as possible. AN HON. MEMBER: I did not even know about it. MR. STRACHAN: Our previous minister will probably stand and defend his position, that is fine. That is your right t