Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, March 13, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 25

~- ?-'.arch 13, 1973 Tape 577 PK - 1 The llouse met at 1·()() P.~. Hr. Speaker in thr Chair. MR. SPF.AKFR: ___ _,_ ____ _ Order, pl.ease! I would like to welcome all strangers to the galleries today but I would especially liJre to welcome forty-six Grade VIII students from St .. Tohn Rosco School here in St. John's,with their teachers/Ir. P. Hogan and ?Ir. F. Hearn. On behalf of all honourable Members I welcome you to the galleries. I trust that your visit is most imformative and interesting. PETITIONS FON. l!.:_ R. V. EARLE (t!INISTF.R OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SERVICES) : Hr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the residents of Rencontre F.ast. This petition is twofold,namely: for a hip,hway connecting with the Burin Peninsula Highway from Rencontre F.ast to the Burin Peninsula Highway. The second is for attention to the telephone system which is very had in the area. Actually,of course,the

section of the petition dealinp: with telephone communicAtionci shoulcl not c01pe to this House, hecause communications of that nature are handled fedP.rally,and itJ is done through the CNT. The road question which is asking for a connection to the main llurin High.Jay is _a very extensive and costly jop ,_if it could he done at all. I have an estimate that the complete road would cost somethinp, in the vicinity of Sl2 million. J can on] y prPi::C'n t the pC't it ion ;m,I support it; in the 11 p,h t of the fact that this sort of a contr.,c-t may hC' posidble 1n years to come.

T would nsk that 1t hr plncr~ nn the tnhle of the House and referred to the minister to whom 'ft rrl:1tr i: . MR. S .A. Nl'AHY • Tt p_lvrr: 1111• i,.rr:it plrmrnrr to support thr pr.titian, I Rm nnt quitr surr lf : thr mr~•~r for the rllstrict ar,rees with the prtltlnn or not. lie mentioned thr cont thf'rr.. But, Sfr, I would say that this is a rem10n:ih]e rrqur.st tlwt thr people doPn 1n the honounihlc memhers district are trylnr. to break thC' isolation.

In view of the fact today, Sfr, we hPnr<I that thr tmrn•p]oymPnt figures In ;!ewfouncl]ancl are ](, .2 per cent, ns of lnst r,onth. thr c-ncl of lnst month, th1f; mir.ht he> a rood m:ike-work 1S34

March 13, 1973 Tape 577 PK - 2 project, to put people to work buildinr, this road. As far as the telephone system is concerned, Sir, I think the honourable minister indicated that this is outside of the jurisdiction of this Fouse, but nevertheless I think the people down there are entitled to an adequate telephone system and I support the prayer of the petition. On motion petition received. ORDERS OF THE DAY. f-lR. ~ _. ROWF. : Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Fisheries.

In view of the fact that the fishermen on the Northwest Coast are anxious to get back _to · ·repairing their boats and g_ear for the spring fisheries, has the minister ·anything new to report with regards to negotiations with the federal government in providinr, assistance to these fishermen? HON. P..1.._ r.HF.T:SF.'·fNI:_ (MtNTSTER OF FTS!lf.Rli-'.S): Mr. SpP.nker, in anRwer to th,• hnnourRhle m!!rnher for St. nnrbe North, the poR1.tion :IR that there has hc(!n some correripondence with Ottnwa. That is still in the process, as indicated by the honourable Mr.

Davis in the llouse,T think within the last couple of days. There may or may not have heen some misunderstandinp, about the requests that went forward and the reply that came,so I wrote again in clarification of that. But I would hope thflt within a week the position will he clarified nnd there will he some definitely policy statemrn t on ft. I-le rr.cor;n17.C the nrp,ency of the nr.C'cl to do ,mmethinr, about it. tffi. F. Tl • !lOHF ; A snpplemPntRry riuestion, Mr. Spenker, In, the nepotintions which you nre h.avinr. wf.th the fpdcral r,overnmr.11t,do('1J tide only conc4:'rn damar.r. nnd losfl of ho.,ts?

Docs it al so cover I ORR of ff nhinP. p,car itRPl f? tm. C!WESFl'A !I : The nurvcy mi m1ch cnrrierl <'Vr>rythinr, thnt WAR dcclnred as loss, so it incl.11(lr.d cverythinr that was cleclnrcd nR loa,1. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Could the- miniRter inform this I House if there are .my moves within his departrnent to keep the farmland in and around the St. John's Area as farml:md so :It w111. not be ~ohbled up 1S35

March 13, 1973 Tape 577 PK - 3 hy land RpectulatorR? !.!_C1_N. -~· _ MAY NAil!): (MH.ISTEP OF AGRTf.JTJ.Tlllff MlD FORESTS) ·. r would rather take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker, and answer it in the way of a minister:fal stateMent,at a future date. On motion that the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Sreaker left the Chair. 1-'R. CJ!ATP}W,J: MR. NEARY: COMMITTEE OF S\'PPI.Y Head VJIT - SOCIAL SFRVICES. Mr.

Chairman, hefore I make a few comments on Pead VIII - Sot:ial Services may I point out, S:1.r, to people ,,Tho are covering this honourable Fouse for the first t:lme that we are not bogp,ed down on Head VIII, that we have only spent twenty minutes so far on Interim Supply­ $85,900,000. We have only spent ahout fifteen or twenty minutes on it so far, Sir. I think that this !louse is entitled to spent a half an hour or an hour or so discussinc almost $86 million.

The Leader of the Opposition,when he opened the dchate or was respondinr: to the Minister of Fin:mce, sa:l.d that we were r,oinp. to let this Interim Supply Bill ~o through rather quickly. \,Tell, Sir, we intend to , do that. There is no conflict between the Leader of the Oppos:ftion and myself on this. \-!hat the Leader of the Opposition meant was we ..,,ould let it r:o through rather quickly after askinp, a few questions. That is what we :Intend to do, Sir. I hope that I do not p:I cl: up the mornin~ paper and see that we are bogged down on Interim Supply whr.n ,..,e only spent ahout twenty minutes on it.

So far, 1 would s11y n maximum of tvrnty minutes. We should he entitled to an hour nt lc:ist, Mr. Cha:lrroan, whrn we 11n• spcndi11 1'. $86 miJlion of the taxp,1yers Now, tlr. Ch:drmnn, yr~t('rd:iy T put :i fC'w ci11Pstions to the• 1'-'ini.stC'r of ~:orlnl S1•rvlrcr<,nnc! T 11111 pl11rl tn rsrP him harl , In hh; i;e.it after heinr, hnttrrr•cl :1n1l hruinC'<I tliln mnr·nfnJ' on tli<- "OpPn Line Prorrammc' · . J was on my way over to Jlrll Tslnnd nn<' 1 t1111C'd in to hc.ir the honour.ih]c min1.strr wittfnP. rnkPd over the c.-onJi i , f'f'tt:lnr, n tostl' of his own medic:lne, ~lr. Cha:! rman. 1836

March 13, 1973 Tape 577 PK - 4 AN HON. ME}'HF.R: From his own constitutents. MR. NEARY: Gcttinp, a taste of his own rnedicine,and from his own ·constitutents this time, ?low he knows what it is like, Sir. Now the honourable minister knows what it is like. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island will deal with Head \'1II - Social Services. MR. NEARY· What a display, Mr. Chairman, of contempt and arro11:ance, lack of respect for the opinion of the people. MR. CHAIRMMT· Order, please! MR. NEARY: An)"',ay, Nr.

Chairman, I am glad to see the honourable minister back in his seat, though his nose may be bloodied a little bit. MR. MURPFY: The honourahle member is glad to see me back. 'MR. NEARY: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, some of the matters that I raised yesterday in this honourable House were matters that were brought up on the pror,ramme this morninP. which the honourable min.i_ster aoue~red on, hy callers, by welfare recipients, by people who are employed and are earning a low income.

I heard the honourable minister make one statement that T ( ' would certafnly like to have it clarified, The honournhle minister said that Ottawa, th~ Government of Canarla h;rn a!'lked the province to 1837

March 13, 1973 Tape no. 578 Page 1 - MRW lay off, hold back, do not do anything until you hear from us. Sir, I would like to know if the honourable minister has that in writing. Was it an oral request? How was this message communicated to the government? MR. MURPHY: Would you like that answered? MR. NEARY: Ye_s, I would like to have that answered. MR. MURPHY: Some ten days ago, my deputy minister and I held a meeting with Mr. Lalonde, Minister of Health and Welfare. We put forward several matters that are presently in the works with oar government.

They asked us if we would kindly refrain from introducing or mentioning any new projects because of the fact (I think I have made this statement on several occasions) that within the next few days or perhaps a couple of weeks, there will be a complete new picture of welfare services as such. They would like, before we start getting into our own, for us to hold discussions with other provinces and discuss the matter nationally rather than provincially. That is just the actual story. I do not know if the honourable member wants to make any other comment on that. I can get Mr.

Lalonde on the phone and tonight, if he wants to - MR. NEARY: I do not want to make any other comment on it apart from to say that social welfare programmes are the responsibility of the province. They come under the jurisdiction of the province. HR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: the people - HR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: Hear! Hear! If this great government that was going to be brought to Hear! Hear! If they want to continue the fuel allowance - AN HON. MEMBER: Get to the point! MR. NEARY: If they want to continue the fuel allowance beyond 1838

March 13, 1973 Tape no. 578 Page E - HRW Mr. Neary the end of April, Sir, they can do it. MR. MURPHY: Absolutely. MR. NF.ARY: They can do it. They are not going to do it. We were told yesterday by the honourable minister. _MR. MURPHY: That is not true. The honourable minister did not say any such thing. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I could not understand the answer that the honourable minister gave me. MR. MURPHY: The honourable member cannot understand anyhow. MR. NEARY: Well I will put the question to the honourable minister again. Will the fuel allowance be carried on beyond the end of April?

Is there provision in the Interim Supply Bill, in Head VIII, Social Services? Is there provision here to carry on the fuel allowance up to the end of May which covers the pC!riod that the Minister of Finance is asking for Interim Supply? MR. MURPHY: end of May. MR. NEARY: There will be a fuel allowance carried on until the Will it be the ten extra dollars a month? Five of which wu started by the previous administration and five put on by the new administration when they took over. Will it revert back to fifteen dollars after the end of April?

Will it be twenty-five dollars up to the end of May which is the period that this Interim Supply Bill covers? Would the honourable minister answer that? MR. MURPHY: Would the honourable member sit down so I can stand up? MR. NEARY: Go ahend. Give me the answer. HR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, this same question WDfl nsked me yesterday. Hy am,wcr to it is f n lions a rd. l do not know why we should be compelled to have the snme qucAtion. The honourable ~cntlcmon hnB referred to what someone said that this thinr, is being bogr,ed down. Well if we are 1339

March I). 19 7:: Tape no.578 Page 3 Mr. Murphy to listen to this gentleman, he has asked the same question three or four times - if that is not bogged down, I wonder what is. The answer is this: I am not in a position at this time to annunciate the policy of my government which will be brought dmm in the estimates and in the budget in a very short time. Basically, any more than that I cannot answer. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, this Interim Supply Bill is asking this House to vote the Department of Social Services, $6,675,000 which is two months' interim supply which will bring it up to the end of May.

Now surely if the minister comes into this House and asks for $6,675,000 then surely he must know whether or not the fuel allowance or the extra ten dollars a month fuel allowance is going to be carried on until the end of May or not? MR. MURPHY: You are beating a dead horse. MR. NEARY: I am not flogging a dead horse. I want the answer to this, Mr. Chairman. I am not asking the minister to tell us what the policy is going to be over the long haul, I want to know what it is going to be for the month of May. AN HON. MEMBER: We do not know the weather yet. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I am addressing my question to the Minister of Social Services, not the other crackies on the other side. is refusing to give me the answer. The minister MR. MURPHY: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I cannot accept that I refuRe to answer. I think I have answered to the best of my ability. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. MURPHY: Thnt 1~ all Tip,ht. I want to p;et down to the level of the oppoili I ion. MR . CJIATRMAN: 111l' minister's point is weJl-taken. The question has been answered on numerous occnRions. The minister has given the answer 18~0

March 13, 1973 Tape no. 57& Page 4 Mr. Chairman. that he is prepared to give and if the honourable member persists in asking the question, I will have to rule him out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister is coming into this House and asking for $6,675,000 and he does not know what he wants it for. MR. MURPHY: Refuse it! Refuse it! If that is how the minister feels, refuse it! Tomorrow you will be saying that there is not enough bread on our tables; there is not enough to eat. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, to a point of order, if Your Honour is so tender on enforcing the rules, would Your Honour be good enough to ask the crackies to keep quiet and let f1l'f colleague speak? MR. MUPRHY: MR. EVANS: Oh, sit down! (Inaudible). HR. ROBERTS: That is exactly what I mean, Mr. Chairman. Would Your Honour be good enough to enforce the rules of the committee? HR. CHAIRMAN: All honourable members have the right to be heard in silence; however, as I stated previously, provocative remark.a from either side of the House are r,oinr, to evoke provocative remarks from the other side to wl1fch tl~y are directed.

If the honourable member wishes to spenk and to be heard in Rllence, he will have to tailor his remar~R accordingly. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, with utter respect, that is utter foolishness. I never heard the like of it. My colleague has the right; if he has the floor, it is in order to say what he wishes. If the other honourable gentlemen opposite cannot control themselves, Sir, that is their problem. We have quite a job controlling ourselves from such gentlemen as the hon. member for St. John's Centre, but we do manar,e. It is a struggle. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). 1811

March 13, 1973 Tape no. 578 Page 5 Ml{. ROll)·:H:r1 : Do you 11""" ex11ctly whal I me11n, Your Honour - 11peaking to a point of order. The hon. gentleman from St. John's Centre cannot seem to accept the fact that he is bound by the rules of this House. of all the arrogance! By God,I thought I saw arrogance when we were over there! MR. MURPHY: _HR. ROBERTS: Absolutely. But far more now. Hy colleague has the right to be heard in silence,! submit, Sir. If he says anything that is out of order, I know Your Honour will not hesitate for a second to call him to order.

The honourable member has the right to be heard in silence. HR. CHAIRMAN: Before the honourable member resumes his place, I would like to direct a comment to the Leader of the Opposition whereby he has intimated that the ruling of the Chair was utter foolishness. That type of remark is not particularly in good taste in this House. The Chair was merely reflecting what transpires in a House where honourable members get involved in protracted debate with one another and there are recriminations and acrimonious debate.

If honourable members are to involve themselves in such debate, they have to expect to reap what they sow. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I did not say that Your Honour's ruling was utter foolishness. I said, "your Honour's reflections were utter foolishness." AR HON. MEMBER: A rose of any other name is still a rose. MR. ROBERTS: Foolishness by any other name is still foolishness. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! HR. NEARY: So, Hr.

Ch~irman, I can only assume,because I cannot get a definite yes or no, a simple yes or no answer from the minister, that the extra ten dollars a month, fuel allowance for the months of November, December, January, Fc-bruary, March nnd April will be discontinued after the end of April. 18~2

MARCH 13, 1973 Tape no. 578 Page 6 MR. HICKEY: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. May I make a couple of observations? MR. NEARY: State your point of order. MR. HICKEY: Just hold on a second. Just take it easy boas! Toe Chairman is up there. I have sat, Mr. Chairman, and I have listened to the honourable gentleman - MR, NEARY: MR. HICKEY: decreased. Mr. Chairman, what is the point of order?

He now tells the House that the fuel allowance will be The minister responsible made no statement of a change in policy with regard to the fuel allowance, The hon. member for Bell Island may, therefore, conclude that there will be no change in that policy. until he announces such a change. HR. NF.ARY: What is the point of order, Hr. Chairman? HR. HICKEY: Now he got his anewer,so let him get on with the next item. HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, ie that a point of order? MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. MR. NEARY: There is no point of order~the Chairman says.

Why does not the honourable member learn the rules of the Hous~? Spend sometime in the House and learn the rules. The honourable member never did learn the rules. We found that out on two occasions. I can only assume, Hr. Chairman, that after the end of April that thie ten dollars will be dropped. Now, Sir, I also ask .ed the minister about the food rates. The minister told me that since the new administration took over, five dollars had been added to ~1e food rates for adults in the family. There w11s no incrr.aRe for the children. Well that is prob11bly a true at11tement, Sir, but I ask the HR.

MURPHY: llt d I say that? AN HON. ~EMBtll: No: 1S13

March 13, 1973 Tape no 578 Page 7 HR. NEARY: Ye• There was an increase of five dollars for each adult in the family 1 so the minister said. MR. MURPHY: He is talking about food. MR. NEARY: Food I am talking about. MR. MURPHY: Yes, right. MR. NEARY: I was unable to get a satisfactory answer fr0111 the minister, Mr. Chairman, on whether or not the new administration, the Tory Government, were going to increase the food rate for the period under which they are asking for Interim Supply?

I pointed out, Sir, that the cost of living had increased drastically in the last year or so and that the Government of Canada had recognized this fact by increasing the old age pension up to $175 a month and I asked the minister if any consideration were beinr given to increasing the food rates. The minister could not give me a definite answer. Well, Sir, I can only 18'14

March 13, 1973 Tape 579 JM - 1 assume that the rates are going to remain the same,and the same thing with the clothing allowance, Sir. As a matter of fact I asked the minister to inform the House what the clothing allowance was for each adult and each child in a family on short-term assistance and long-term assistance. I do not think I got an answer to this question at all, Sir, and I am going to put the question to the minister again. I am merely asking, Mr. Chairman, what the present policy is. What is the clothing allowance for adults and children on short and long-term assistance? lf it is a fact, Mr.

Chairman, that children of families, below school age,and children depending on their families,above school age,are not entitled to any clothing allowance at all_when_ ~n_short-term assistance? Yet, Mr. Chairman, we hear the Premier announcing publicly that there is a saving of $4 million in welfare this year, a saving of $4 million. There is no such thing, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you entitled to make a speech? MR. NEARY: Yes, I am entitled to make a speech if I want to,and the hon. member can get up and make one if he wants to. So I can only assume, Sir, that this policy is going to remain the same.

That children,below school age,of families on short­ term assistance and children above school age,of families on short-term assistance,will not be considered for clothing allowance and the same thing, Sir, with household maintenance. The hon. minister had a question put to him this morninr,, when he was bf.'iny, badf:cred on the "Open Linc Pror,ramme", why people on short-term aflsistnnce did not get the household maintenance utilities allowance of $25.00 a month. So I put this question as n matter of fact to the mfnistcr yesterday afternoon here in this hon. llouse,and I did not p,et an answer.

I would like to know now, Mr. Chairman, if the government is considering, under the Interim Supply Bill, . granting $25. 00. househo] d maintenance allowance to families on short-term assistance. Perhaps the hon. · Premier, 1Si15

March 13, 1973 Tape 579 JM - 2 Mr. Chnf.rmnn, could tn'k!' Rome of that savinp,!1 of $4 million and pass it bnck to tlu· 1,n•I f11n· n·clpJentR. AN HON. MEMBER: (Innutlible). MR. NEARY: And the George McLean enquiry. Now, Mr. Chairman, I come to probably the most important part of my remarks 7which deal with statistics involving the number of cases and the number of people on short and long-term assistance at the end of February,1973, I think it was. Was it the figure at the end of February,1973, the minister gave me yesterday? Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the hon. minister could tell me if that figure he gave us yesterday was as of the end of February, 1973? MR. MURPHY: As far as I know that was for the month of February, 1973, long-term and short-term. MR. NEARY: Well, I thank the hon. minister for confirming that fact, that minute detail, Mr. Chairman. Now, Sir, the hon. minister tells us that as of the end of February, 1973, approximately 91,000 persons were receiving long and short-term social assistance from the Department of Social Services.

According to my figures, Sir, that is about 9,000 persons_ more than received social assistance for about the same time last year, 9,000 more. AN llON. MEMBER: 2,000 less. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, it is not 2,000 less, not according to the annual report of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. MR. ~ll~P_IIY: Does the hon. member wish all the statistics month by month? MR. NEARY: ----·- ---- Mr. Chairman, I hnve the statistics here. MR. MURPHY: Okay, read them off and we will check. MR. NEARY: At the end of March, 1972, there were 34,874 persons - MR. MURPHY: Cases, p,1 ve us the cases? MR.

NEARY: No, 34,874 persons rcceivinr, short-term assistance and 48,039 persons receiving lcinp;-term n,:sistnnce for a total of 82,913 persons. 1. S 16

March 13, 1973 Tape 579 That is according to the annual report of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. In other words there are 9,000 more persons receiving social assistance this year than for the same period last year. MR. MURPHY: Hogwash'. MR. NEARY: It is not hogwash, Mr. Chairman. The hon. minister gave me the figures ar,d there is the annual report of the department, the hon. minister has one and he can check it. AN HON. MEMBER: 500 families off welfare this year. MR. NEARY: 500 families,my big toe! There are no 500 families off welfare, Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: 8,000 last January. MR.

NEARY: There are 9,000 more - AN HON. MEMBER: Nearly 8,000 last January. JM - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am talking about the same period last year according to this report, 9,000 more persons receiving social assistance than at the same time last year and yet, Mr. Chairman, we hear the hon. Premier going around the province boasting of the fact that the government has saved $4 million in social assistance.

So I would like for the hon. the Premier to tell us how that money was saved or I would like for the hon. minister to tell us how the government managed to save $4 million, how the Tory administration saved $4 million, Mr. Chairman, when we have children who cannot get a clothing allowances, when we have famil ic11 on short-term nssistancc who c:mnot get household maintenance allownnces, when we have families in this province who cannot gf't enour,h food to put on their tnble, we have- the fuel allowance being cut back nf tcr the en,! of April.

Yet the Pr<·mkr tel ls us thnt the government snvcd $4 mlllion in welfare. Well, SJr, before we pass this vote I want to know how they saved it. We have heard the hon. minister's predeceRsor tell us that he appointed a political appointee that saved the government a half 1817

March 13, 1973 Tape 579 JM - 4 a million dollars. MR. MURPHY: Bully for him I MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I want to find out. I hope it is true. I want to find out if it is true, Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr.Chairman. I at no time inside or outside this House admitted making any political appointment. The hon. gentleman is taking about himself. Do not judge everyone by himself. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. minister cannot stand the heat, Sir, let him get out of the kitchen. Go outside and cool off. Sir, I am stating facts here, Mr. Chairman, and I know it hurts.

When the hon. minister was down in Bermuda spending the tax payers moneY, he should have been checking on these things and not feeding the hon. Premier the wronp, information and then the hon. Premier goes out and announces it to the whole world as being factual when in actual fact, Sir, he is - If I were the hon. Premier I would check the information that was being fed to me• MR. HICKEY: A point of order. Mr. Chairman, make the hon. gentleman withdraw that statement. MR. NF.ARY: Withdraw what statement, Mr. Chairman? MR.

IIICKF.Y: T have not fed t.he hon. the Premier anything but facts and whc-n I was fn Bermuda spending the tax payers money,! was there on government business. If the hon. gentleman wants a one hour description of my trip to Bermuda,he shall hnve it, something he should have done a long time ap,o. Now put up or shut upl MR. CHAIRMAN: With respect to the hon. member's point of order.there will be ample time in debate on this head for the hon. member to answer any points of debate that the member for Bell Island will bring up. At the present time I do not see that there is any point of order. MR.

NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The hon. minister is probably still smarting under having to pay back the money for the car he used. 18~8

March 13, 1973 Tape 579 Well, Sir, we are told by the hon. the Premier that there was a saving of $4 million and I want to find out where that aaving actually occurred, under what heading? I would also like for the hon .• minist .er, Sir, if he choose to speak in this debate,to t .ell us about the investigating service that his predecessor set up, this CIA,to go out snooping on welfare recipients. I would like to find out, Sir, if that has been set up and how long it has been functioning. Who is in charge of it? What they hope to accomplish7 Investigating services, JM - 5 Sir, undermining the welfare officers. This is all it does,Sir, snooping on 181 D

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 580 NM - 1 the poor people of this province because the minister over reacted to criticism that some welfare recipients were lazy and would not take jobs. So the minister over-reacted and set up his own C.I.A. to snoop on the poor people of this province. I do not know if they have gone as far as they went in F.n~land there last year, Sir, to go down peeping through the keyholes - AN HON. MF.HRF.R: Inaudible. --- • --~• L• -- - MR. NF.ARY: Well the honournble minister got a good collea~ue to work on that,I cnn tell you. AN HON. MEMBER: You better believe it. MR.

NF.ARY: Sir, about this investigatin3 service, I would like to know where their offices are locatecf.7 How many people are actually involved in this security arrangement, going around the province snooping on the welfare recipients? I would also like to know, Mr. Chairman, while the honourable minister is on his feet, if he would tell us about this employment agency, so called, that the minister's predecessor set up. It was supposed to have created five hundred jobs and save $.5 million. ''Worth his wcir,ht in p,o]d," we heard here in the House one day and yet while we arc hearing that statement being made, Mr.

Chairman, we discover that the case load as of the end of February is up by 9,000 persons,and yet the government is claiming credit for creatfnr, 500 jobs. Sir, if velfare recipients got 500 Jobs, it is no thanks to the provincial government, Sir. the jobs were created by Ottawa,under the LIP programme. We henrd tod:iy, Mr. Speaker, thnt the unemployment fl~ur~ in Newfoundland iH 16,2 per cent, astounding, a sta~~ering fJp,urc-, Str. 1 s ;.;o

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 580 NM - 2 MR. 1'fl/RPIIY: 18,000 job" created, tell the whole story not half of it. MR. NEARY: Unemployment in this province, the staggering figure of 16.2 per cent, Sir, I will make a categorical statement here and now in this honourable House - MR. MURPHY: That is something. MR. NEARY: That the figure would be 23.2 per cent if it were n~t for Uncle Ottawa, if tt were not for the training and retraining programmes - MR. MURPIIY: It might be 100 per cent. MR. NEARY: And over 6,000 jobs created in Newfoundland by the local initiatives programme. MR. MURPHY: Tremendous. MR.

NEARY: 8,000 jobs in all,if you call on-the-job training,and training and retraining,jobs, 8,000, Sir. We hear the honourable Premier going around the province again boasting of the fact that the rural development programme is ca~ching on, $2 million spent on rural development to create jobs. so far we have not been able to determine where the jobs were created. We have a list. These jobs would have been there anyway, seasonal employment the most of them, just give-away programmes. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY: Seasonal employment and you know, Mr.

Speaker, while we are talking about that, the situation in Newfoundland in the last three or four or five years has changed completely, it has reverse~ itself. Unemployment does not reach its peak in the wintertime anymore in Newfoundland. MR. MOORES: No, in July. MR. NEARY: That is right. The honourable Premier is right. That is a fact, Mr . Chairman, When the students come pouring out of the Colleie of Trades and Technology and the vocational schools and the unlv(!Tsity and pcopl(! are off un(!mployment imrnrnncc, and the LIP pror,rnmm(!s nr<' over and the trai.ninp, and retrnln:inr, programme8 are over, 18~1

March 13, 1973 Tape No, 580 NM - 3 Sir, that is where unemployment hits its peak here in Newfoundland. MR. MURPHY: Thousands of kids out of kindergarten. MR. NEARY: I tremble, Sir, I tremble to think what is going to happen this spring in Newfoundland, No wonder the Premier panicked and went off in a huff to get this second oil refinery under way. No wonder, there is nothing on the horizen for our people this year, no employment opportunities to look forward to and I doubt very much, Mr. Chairman, if there will be very much emploY111ent on that second oil refinery this year, maybe on the first one.

No development of the Lower Churchill, the Upper Churchill is just about finished, phasing down. The Linerboard Mill is finished. The first oil refinery starting up this year, phase down of construction workers, All the other projects are grinding to a halt, grinding to a halt and yet we have thousands and thousands of yonng men and women coming out of the vocational schools and the College of Trades and Technology and the university this year, Sir, entering the labour market and will not be able to find work. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, today even those who have jobs, even those who are employed are in deadly fear that automation will take their jobs away from them. MR. MURPHY: God help us, he has been talking about it for ten years. MR NF.ARY: I would say this, Mr. Chairman, that the only real answer to this problem and the only alternative to welfare which is a clumsy way of lookinr, after p~oplc who are in need, whether they be sick or unemployed through no fault of their own, the only way to look after these people is through the guaranteed annual income. MR. MURPHY: Another novel idea. 1852

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 580 NM - 4 MR. NEARY: about it. Do not worry, when I was minister I did something MR. MURPHY: That is what you did. MR. NEARY: I put the proposal to Ottawa and as a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I am very proud to say that at the last Liberal Convention held in Ottawa about two and one half years ago, the guaranteed annual income principle was unanimously accepted by that convention and when we have the convention this fall in Ottawa, Sir, you will probably hear more about the guaranteed annual income. We have heard quite a bit about it in the last few years.

Unfortunately, those who are talking and thinking about the guaranteed annual income have not been able to communicate their message to the masses of the people. This has been the problem with the guaranteed annual income, Sir, not the cost, Governments, especially Tory Governments, the Tory Party, are afraid of the backlash but we have to face it, Mr. Chairman, the only alternative,in my opinion,to welfare, is the guaranteed annual incom~. The guaranteed annual income, Sir, is not just another name for welfare either.

The guaranteed annual income is desl~ned to give people a decent living, if that is p~ssible, to give people who are unemployed and people who are sick and people who are living on fixed incomes, to give them a fair ; share of the gross national product, that we are told last year hit a record high in Canada. We had to do that, Mr. Chairman. We hnd to put 1110ney in the hands of the conRumers, ~o that they can P,O out and buy all the p.oods thnt are pourlnp. off the assembly lines 11t n record rnte. Hr.

Chn1rmnn, If we do not put purchnsing power in the hands of the consumers, our whole distribution system will become 1853

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 580 NM - 5 constipated. The goods will be left in the warehouses, Sir, and not onl_y will we have a receBsion but we will have mass layoffs. So, I would say, Sir, that the guaranteed annual income over the long haul would cost us less than all the other welfare measures that we already have in force.

One day I had a discussion with my colleague, the member for White Bay South, about this I and we both agreed tha': if all the social welfare proRrannnes were put under one umbrella, just have one programme, thnt it would cost the government of Canada much less than nll the proirammes that we have goinp: at the present time. So, Mr. Chnirmnn, I cannot help saying and I am glad I had the opportunity to raise this m,'ltter in the !louse, about this 16.2 per cent unemployment 1n Newfoundland. This is a failure, Mr.

Chairman, on the part of the Tory Government,to carry out promises that they made in this province in two provincial elections, October 1971 and March 1972. It is a failure to fulfill their promises, Sir, and I would say that it is a good thing that we have Ottawa pouring the money in here - $11 million so far this year for LIP projects and on the job training.

March 13, 1973 Tape 581 IB-1 It is a good thinP,, Sir, that Ottawa came to our rescue or we would have been up now another seven percentap;e points. So, I hope that I do not hear the honourable Premier or any of his ministers going around this province boasting about snving $4,000,000 on welfare and about 1111 the johs they are creatin11: under the rural development authority. What a farce!

Wh 11 e al. 1 thiR ts p,otng on, Sir, wh11 e we h,we record unemployment fn NPwfoundl nn<l, no !ob!'! (our per-p]e r.rmnot fln<l t'mployment), we have the Minister of Social Services setting up nn investigating service to force people out to look for jobs that are not there. Not only is the honourable minister doing it but we have the Unemployment Insurance Commission doing it to, Sir.

I know examples where they have taken away benefits from people or they have rlelayed their benefits, Sir, because of red tape in the Unemployment Insurance Commission or because of some sloppy office procedure that they have of digr,ing up regulations that have been dormant for years, saying to people - I have had a lot of dealings with this, Sir, I know what I am talking about - ''You have to go out and brinP, us in three letters from employers stating that you are looking for a joh." We have not had to do it for years but because of the back lash that we had in the last federal election,when the criticism was flying around, the people up in Ontario were saying, ''Oh, down in the Mari times they are too lazy to go to work!" We heard the fish trades out saying, ")h• all kinds of jobs doi.m in the fish plants." Nonsense, Sir.

Over in Nova Scotia we heard some sawmill operators saying, "Jh, they are going begging in the - MR. '.'fURPIIY: Do we have to listen to this travelogue? MR. NEARY : Yes, thev have to listen to it, Mr. Chairman. MP.. MJIRPIIY: Are we ~oin~ fnto a trnvrlo~ue now? We nre entering Nova Scotfn. Wlint fR next? Wli hnvr brcn in Ottnwn for Rome time. MR. NEARY: Sft clown nncl listen to 11 v,ood Hfl<'f'r.h. Sit down and linten to a good 1.fberal Apeech. MR. HlJRPllY: I am on a point of order. 1855

March 13, 1973 Tape 581 IB- 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: If both honourable members will resume their seats, I will deal with the point of order. The point of order, of course, is well taken. The honourable member from Bell Island has covered the territory quite well and re­ covered it on many occasions. The honourable minister has raised the point of order. The member from Bell Island may persist in making the same points again in different ways if he wish. However, it would be appreciated if he would make what new points he has to make rather than going over the old remarks. MR. NF.ARY: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate your ruling but this is the very first time in this honourable House that I mentioned about this new procedure thnt the Unemployment Insurance Commission had brought in. There are a number of other points that I made this afternoon, Sir. It is the first time that J have mentioned them in this honourable House. If the honourable minister does not like lt, let him go out and sip his coffee,out in the common room,because that is all they are any good for anyway. So, ~fr, the Hnemployment Insurance Commission are also putting the blocks to people who are unemployed.

"co out and find jobs;'they say. You know, Mr. Chnirman, there are taxpayers a~d there are people in this province who really beUeve,because they have been brainwashed, they have been conned into it, that most welfare recipients are too lazy to p;o to work, that they would not go to work if they had a job starinp, them in the face. Sir, this is not true. The honourable minister found that out to his dismay this morning when he got hot under the collar with some callers.

The honourable minister can put the gears to the welfare recipients by settinr, up his little invcstigatinr, agency, Str. l-1R . ~JRPHY: ) certainly hope, )'(r. Chairman, that this gentleman is not referrinr, to mr. a~ RP.tt1np, up an underr,round movement of any t1nd. J will nsk hlm to rctrnct that. l-1R. Nt·:I\RY: Mr. Chnirmnn, l d1cl not snv thr. lionourahlc minir.ter was - 18;.iG

Morch 13, 1971 Tape 581 IB-3 MR. MURPHY: Who did you say? MR. NEARY: The honourable m1nister is not listening to what I am saying, Sir. He is drenming. He is still smartin~ under the criticism of that proF,ramme this morning, Sir. Relax! Life is to short! We are going to be here for several more months yet. I.et us take an hour or so to talk ahout unemployment in this province. When the honourable Minister of Finance wnR over here.stnndinP, almost in the same p]ace that I am standing today.he talked about unemployment insurance and welfare on Interim Supply and talked about it for hours and hours.

Now, the honourable minister is over there and I am over here. AN HONOURARLE MEHRER: And that is where you are going to remain. MR. NEARY: Oh, there he is. Final]y we got him to open up. Well, we will see. We will be here for another two years, Sir, that is all, and then we will he back over there again. You cannot force peop]e to go to work, Sir, when the 1ohs are not there. MR. MURPHY: Well, now that is a profound statement too. MR. NEARY: All this bellyaching about welfare recipients being too lazy to p;o to work is not true. The honourab]e minister can say what he like, lt is 1ust not true.

The only way thnt we can get rid of this image of welfare is to brinP. in an alter.native, Sir, which is the guaranteed annual income. I think that is the only way that we will be able to adequately look after our people in the future. Sir, I could go on for another hour but,as I indicated in the beginnin~,ve intend to let the minister put his Interim Sunply Bill throu 0h rather q1•ickly.to give us some answers on Mr. McLean. Some clepnrtmcnts have not reported yet.

We will be c>xpcct 1 np, to p,•• t thrR<" nnswers th1 i'l n fternoon. lJn 1 csa the honourab 1 C' minister or nomrhotly on thP othr-r 1'1<lf' provnkr me,S1r, thnt ifl all I hnve to Rny nt thfq pnr1·fr11l11r time. t-fR. MURPHY: Whnt wns the ']11rl'lt Ion? JuRt nn<' or two short rrmarks, H I may. First off in the gent]eman's o~m remarks about himself, I am asking the Premier to declare his birth dnte r.1 n;itional holiday so we can erect a monument to him, lie has on•,innte<l so m:my novel

March 13, 1973 Tape 581 IB-4 ideas in Canada, I do not know hut the Prime ~inister might go along with it. With reference to his breakdown of , how do we say,$4,000,000: The statement by the honourable member was there were 9,000 people more receiving assistance la~ year than there were the year before. Right? We increased the rates,ber,inning in April,some twenty per cent over ex1Rt1ng Liberal ratf's. There were 9,000 more people received increases in pretty welJ everything. Still we saved $4,000,000. What a government! That is what I can say.

I would like to congratulate the Premier on the tremendous job that he is doing. Nobody suffered. We gave everybody more. We fed 9,000 more people. Tt was like the loaves and the fishes. We did a tremendous joh. Now, to p;et bnck to thr actual facts,and I have them here. Unfortunately,! did not have time to prepare copies. I will get these. To get back to the actual factR on lonp; term assistance,which remain pretty static because these are people who are on long-term,due to a disability or sickness or something like this.

I will just give these fip;ures. 1971-1972 was 15,773 for the month of April.(! am goinp, to read all of these now. So, anyhody who wants to lay back for a while is perfectly frP.e to do so) I nm talking about cases because this is the way the records are kept f.n cnses, the numher of cases. There might he twelve chtldren in one family, one in another but the payment is made to the parents of the families, not to the children themselves. So, it is the number of cases. 1972-1973 there werel6,017. May,15,848. The following year 16,023. June, 15, 879, the following year 16,029.

In July(we started to get our work at this time) there were 15,910, our year was 15,904; August was 15,9116, the following,15,863. September, 15,942, our year 15,865. Octoh1>r, 15,960, "ur year 15,888. November, 15,943, our year 15,853, Tlccember, l'i,<177, our yP.nr 15,779. J1m1111ry, 15,991, .. hen the Tories w"r" 1n,thes<'! trrrihl<' f)rnr,lr, thPre wni, a drop to 15,710. February, lnnt yrnr,15,'l'l;>, Fl'hr1111rv, th1R yf"nT, 15,(,,,1. 1858

1'farch 13, 1973 Tape 581 IB-5 Now, that h th@ long terai which remains fairly atat:lc becAuf'le nr ron1Htlnmi. 1 ••iv. wlu,r• ri•of'l• tu11t ('Ant1ul wur'I,, Now, here 1a the revelation; the ftr~t figure that I read will be the year when the Liherals were in power and the second will be the year we were in power. In April of 1971-1972 the n\Dllber of short term or able bodied was 10,185, our year; the following year was 8,396, a drop of something like l.,800 just in our first month. In Hay, 9,526 - 1359

~arch 13, 1973, Tape 582, Page 1 -- apb 8,651,another nine hundred in the difference. These people came off assistance, we did not shoot them, we put them to work. July 9,591 - 7,195; Au~ust 9,983 - 7.777: September 1971-1972, the Liberal year, this great year, 10,202; the terrible Tory year followinr,in October, 8,093. Over 2.000 people had been removed from the welfare role and put in gainful e!'lployment whether it came from Ottawa, Honp Kong, Shanghai, whereever it was, they were workinp..

We are not particular where the johs cone from so long as the people are earning good, clean Tl'Oney to loo!: after their families. That is our one ob _ject. ?fovember 10,82 MR. NEARY: ~ • Ml'l?PHV: (Inaudible) l·!1ll the honourable nember hPar me out please. He spoke for nn hour and a--half :ihout nothfnr, I am tryinp to ~ive him some facts. Novc-T'lher 10,827: the followinr, ypar 8,917: December 12,502 the following year 9.485; January 1~72, 12,200 - January 1973 9,398 which means 2,Bn2 people were removed from the welfare roles. I could give you all the costs, rut I think this is sufficie~t.

I hope to get this tav.en off and p,ive it to the prc-ss and everything else. As I say, it was 1ust done for me beforP lunch today. These are the actual facts and perhaps there is a lJttlc- sol'lcthinp. to this. This mny prove why this p:overnment saved $4 million on welfare. The- honour.,blr mC'mhC'r I hopr har. listrned to all this. I guess he has noted thf'm nl l ;ind 'W(' will t;ih• note of all the tremendous t:h1nr ,s he }ms brcn talk:lnr. nhout ,1 !Jrc the- ~'.uarantecd w;ir.c•. We nrver heard of it before, the first day w:is lwrc in this l'.ouse - the p,uaranteed wap,e ,:ind many othPr tliinps.

As I snv, we arc- lool--:lnii: after these pP.ople; we are not ~:ikinr. hup,e hc-adlinPs with the Welfare nenartment. basically.we are in thM·c- for the one purpose; the purpose of ne£'d,to help people. There arc no T.V. extr;ivar.anz~s, no Frcat bir. investipat:fons or anythinr. else. the- people ;irr nuftr hnppy. '1-'fR. NEARY: YcHJ wrrc• on 01wn-l:lnC' thfs morn1nr.. •<n • "I 'I' l'llY : 1 w:iR 011 opc-n -1 fnr this morn:lnf', two peop]p phoncil me who 13CO

~arch 13, 1973, Tape 582, Page 2 -- apb disa~reed with the job we were doing and thirty-seven were complimentary, thought I was doing a wonderful job.

As a matter of fact, I thought I mi~ht today ask to have a holiday declared here in the House because I was such a tremendous individual.But I am humble as it is ~nd I will just say this, that my name has yet to appear in ~larinp, headlines, I have not yet been investigated, I am trying to do the best job I can to keep this low-key, 1ust help the people out,and basically that is our aim, Before T sit down, Sir, I would like to a~ain pay tribute to my collear,ue and,as I said the other day, who went in there and took over a department that was - it was surprising that Public Health has not gone in there before and fumi~ated the place after the mess that was left by the member for Bell Island.

That is it, ¥r. Chaiman, these are the actual facts. I feel I have done my best to answer the ouestions, although I read in one paper today that I refused to answer any questions. I refused to answer no questions~ I can only answer questions to the best of my ability.within the limits of my portfolio. I cannot project at this time anythinr, ahout what our depnrtment will be doinr. for the year beginninp, April 1. I run very hRppy, ;ind perhaps the honourable memhe>r mip;ht lrns mi!'IRC'cl thfs; WC' h:td no Rt1pple1T1c-nt:try 11upply thls yt>sr.

We l<E'pt well within our huclp:ct nnd I am surC' that thi11 helped us to a ~rent de~rec to help an awful lot of other pc-ople in other projects that need to hr <lonC' in this rovcrnment. Mr. Chairman, I l-•ill 1ust say th;it is all that T have to say for tht> present and T do not think there is nnyth1nr, else must crop up, because if the honourable member keeps spcA~inp any lonpcr,I am sure that his own colle11r,urs wjll br1nr a petit10n into the l!ouF;e to have him rC'!l'ovec1. f-'Tl. NF./\RY • f'R • PlTP.T'IIY: UJL tll" /\HY: Thnn~ you very much! tlr. Chairm:m, thnt w:rn nwfullv witty nnd funny. lln,hn!

Jlfrl you enloy fr? The• hono11rnhlP mrmhcr tldn'I-:,:; 11ocinl n11Rfi1tnncc oncl unc-r1rloymcnt 1SG1

March 13, 1973, Tape 582, Pap.e 3 -- apb is funny. Well. Sir, I have to say this to the honourable minister; in his remarks, his few snide remarks that he made, snide remarks about c·alling in the Department of Health in that department, I will say that that is a gross insult, Sir, to the staff of that department. HR. MURPHY· 1'-'l!. NEARY: --·- .. ·- -- No Siree! I did a job in that department, Mr. Chairman, that it is tctlrinP, two of them to do now. Y.'R. KJRPHY : }~. NEARY: That is rir.ht! That is right!

We have a minister issuing cheques, we have a '1-'inister of Social Services dolinr. out cheques and we have a flinister of Recreation 1tnd Rehahilitl'ltfon. It talres two of them, Sir, to do the work that I did in thnt department. Two, costinr, the taxpayers of this province twfcc- /!ls much. t<'P. }~JRPllY: To snve $4 million it is costinr. us -- - --· . . f-'R. NF.ARY: And, Sir, I wi1l sny this, I w:111 say this, that I passed over to my successor one of the most smoothly run denartments of government, one of the most smooth runnin~, Sir. MR. ?11RPHY : ~- NEAFY: That -would win a prize.

I pnssed it over to him, after carryin~ out over a three- yeAr period, Sir, some of th<' ,:,reatest reforms •.• AN HON. r'f.'P-1IIER: "RepAfrR special." ~- NFARY: J nm p:olnp: to denl with rPpairs now. ~r. Chairm.,n, you mirl1t recall thnt I snid if T wereprovok<'d I would carry on a discussion Wc>ll. 1 nm r'.oinr to tnlk nho11t repairs too this afternoon, supposin~ I havc- to st11y J,rrc- untJ 1 Rlx o'clock this evrninp.. Sir, I p,,s!'lrcl ovc-r to 111y ,rnccessor n vrrv smooth runnf nr. depnrtment with n r.ood stnff.

T thinJ, ft is a r.ross insult to the staff of thnt dcpart!Tlent to hear the• !lnide remarks that are beinr mRde by the minister wl10 issues cheoues. ~'R • Hl_'R PJTY '. The staff Rrr prrfcct. This is the happiest tirne they ever were. 1862

~-rch 11, 1971, Tnpr ~R7, Pnpr 4 -- nph HR. NF.ARY: "The lllinlRter of che(111eA." }IR. ~'ll~PHY: ~R. Nf'ARY: . . .. - .. "ThE" mfnf .RtPr of chc(1urA; 1 that iR thr At11ff. Tt tnkrn two or thr-rn to run thr !oh tl111t r w1u, dolnR,Slr. I would Ray that thnt Wllft a p:r<>nt compliment to me. }lR. r<tWPHY: No doubt about it. ------- -- Now, Sir, in the last session of this House, some un~uhstantiated charr.es were ~ade by the former ~inister of Social Serv1crA and P.el~bilitation. ~. HICKEY· - - - ------ ·- We are doinr all rirht. Y..'R.

NF.ARY· Unsubstantiated char~es, Sir, of ~raft and corruption and under-the-table deals. I said at that time in this House that I was innocent, Sir. !!-____!_.!1'SJRGA_N_:_ Is it proven yet? ~- NE~J_: No, nor have I been proven ~uilty. AN HON. ~?-T!IF.R: Not yet. ~. NEARY: That :Is why, Sir, that is why the Chair should nCit tolerate the snide rcmarv.s from honourable ministers who are supposed to be representing the Crown. MR. l'l'T'J>HY: Hear: Rear~ ~NI~~,Y _:_ Supposed to be, Sir, that is about all.

MR. !n?'J'~f)": P.epresentin~ the Crown? ~ -·- N~_~Y: I can tell this honourable House this afternoon, that hearinP. hAs been underway now for some time and I am still innocent even though the !fLnister of Finance waltzed in here one year ar.o with his bud~et ma~jnp reference to the poor little wplfare recipients over on Bell Island who pot n few dollars to rrpa:lr thdr roofs that were lcnklnr, to rcpn1r thcJr windows thnt WPrc not w1nd-proof, to put sills nnclcr the !mun,·, hc•c-.111111c th<' ltonF.c wns col lnp~ 1 nr. Mr. Chn1rmnn, to o Point of Orrlrr.

It in unhcnrd of for the !lour.<' to d<'hntP ,-, mnttc·r t1hich is undc-r 1urllc1nl c-nc111iry,ne th<> honourable r.<'ntlernan 1s doinr. I thereforr sur,r.est thnt this should hr ruled out of order.

March 13, 1973, Taoe 582 , Pa~e S - apb l-fR. NEARY: Mr. Chairr:lan, the reaso .n that I am debatin~ this this a ftcrnoon 1.R hec::iur.c n f the snide rcr,c1rh t that were made by the two minhJt<•rA on tl u'lt n l,lr :ind th<- honournhlc ~11n1-ntf'r of Finance who did not ack for n 1udJdal t'nqu1ry into Newfou ndland Leaseback· nor the million dollars tile! t wc1s oaid to D0?-fAC out of the linerboard mill, or the E.P.A. $12 J':lillion loan. No judicial enouiry into that, 186-1

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 583 NM - 1 but the poor little welfare . recipients. not Geor~e McLean scandal AN HON. MEMBER: Is that not scandalous. MR. CROSBY: On a point of order, these remarks are irrelevant, scandalous, I am not going to call the gentleman down because he has no honour and no decency and therefore I would not ask him to retract but these remarks are entirely out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the honourable minister's credibili~v is so - MR. CHAIRMAN: If the honourable member would retain his seat.

The earlier point of order brought out by the Minister of Finance is bein~ researched at the present time as to whether the matter of the enquiry, since it is before the courts, wheth~r it may be a topic for discussion in this House. The remarks made subsequent to that by the member for Bell Island are definitely out of order and have no relationship whatsoever to the Head VIII, Social Services, so they are accordingly ruled out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, am I entitled to discuss the provision of building materials to welfare recipients on Bell Island to repair their poor,old,broken-down houses, without mnking reference to the enquiry. 'HR. CROSilY: That subject is under investigation by a judicial enquiry and therefore cannot be diRcussed here. AN HON . .. t!.EMP.ER: lly a royal commission. MR. CROSJ\Y: By n royal commission, yes. MR. ROBERTS: To thnt point of order, Mr.

Chairman, the matters referred to are being looked into by a royal commission and the commissioner happens to be one of Her Majesty's puisne judges, but that does not make it a judicial enquiry. There is no case before Her Majesty's courts of which I am aware. It is quite out of order, as I understand the rules, to refer to a matter that is before the

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 583 NM - 2 KR. ROBERTS: courts~ ff the.re were an action ~efore the courts, be it criminal or be it civil, it would be clearly out of order,but all that haa happened, iR that the matter is before a royal commiaaion. A royal commission has been appointed to look into certain matters, not into allegations made in this House, I might say,but made into certain matter. The fact the commission is a judge, I submit,does not in itself make it a judicial enquiry.

It may or may not be out of order to refer to the work of a royal commission, Your Honour is taking advice and I do not know the answer so I will await Your Honour's ruling. It is not a judicial enquiry at this stage. MR. HICKF.Y: Speaking to that point of order, the matter now being heard is being heard under either a judicial enquiry or a public enquiry and I have been called to order in this honourable Bouse and I agree that I should have been for even touching on that subject. The reason it came up this afternoon was because the honourable gentleman raised it again. MR.

CHAIRMAN: As I stated before, this matter is being researched by the clerks of the House and if the honourable member has other points to make, it would be preferred that he make them and the Chair will rule on the other matter subsequently. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have a few other points that I want to make. I realize, Mr. Chairman, that this is a matter that will be debated probobly at ~rent len~th in this House in the foreseeable future whrn the report of Judge Mifflin is made public.

But, Sir, there was a statement made in this honourable House in the last session by the honourable Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation,at that time, that ninety per cent of the money that was spent on building material on Bell Island went into pockets - 18CG

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 583 NM - 3 MR. CROSBY: Mr. ChaiTinan, this is a scandal. You have said that •you will make a ruling when this matter is rea•arched. Now that cannot be debated while MR. NEARY: Is this a point of ~rder, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBY: This is a point of order. There has been no ruling made and the honourable gentleman is now t .~ing to refer once again to the subject. This is out of order until the Chairman makes a ruling and I suggest that we move on ,.to the Head, Rehabilitation and Recreation and come back when the Chairman is ready to make a ruling. MR. NEARY: No we will not.

Well what was the ruling, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: The ruling was that if the honourable member had other points to make, that he would make them but would not refer -to this particular point as it relates to the enquiry or whatever type of body is looking after this investigation into the Bell Island affairs, and if the honourable member has other points to make, to make them. The matter is a rather important matter I and is being researched and the Chair will give a ruling in due c:ouree.

The honourable member iA not going to be permitted to make further references to the two ~ases which are presently being ( ,j investigated. HR. NEARY: I assume, Mr. Chairman, from your ruling that no honourable member of this House is permitted in future to make reference to that enquiry in this honourabl€1louse until the enquiry is over, is that Your Honour's ruling? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair is ruling that no further discussion on this matter will be permitted until a ruling is made. MR. NEARY: All right, Mr. Chnirman, we will deal with that matter lat<"r. We will have more to say about that.

We will have somebody's scalp hefor<" thnt 111 over. 1SC'"I

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 583 NM - 4 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few remarks. MR. NEARY: No, I am not finished my remarks. Sit down,bully boy. MR. CROSBIE: Will the honourable gentleman get on with his remarks so somebody else can participate? MR. NF.ARY: Sit do~,n,bully boy, I am not finished yet. AN HON. MEMBER: That is out of order. --- MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chainnan, I asked the honourable minister earlier about the clothing allowance,for children below school age,of families on short term assistance and children above school age,who are dependent on their families, if there was any provision in the interim supply bill to grant a clothing allowance to these children or to the adults,for that matter, of families on short tenn assistance? The minister has not given me an answer to that question.

Now, Sir, the figures that I quoted earlier - 91,000 persons on social assistance, carried in a story in today's "Evening Telegram" eighteen per cent of the population on welfare during February. In here, Sir, this story, it stated that approximately Q],000 persons were on social assistance as of the end of February. I did not make the figure up, Sir, I did not make it up, the minister - MR. MURPHY: Do not make an issue out of it. MR.

NEARY: The Minister of Social Services r,ave us that figure and I was relating in my remarks, Sir, I was relating that figure of 91,000 to what the fir,ure w~s at the end of March one year ago and the honourable minister can check my figures if he wantfl to. MR. MURPHY: T certn1n]y will. MR. NEARY: M11yhe th<" report 111 wronR, Maybe the minister who sfr,necl th111 report should not hnve sir;ned it, the annual report of the dep:1rtmcnt, where it 11aya, "number of persons on short term as~ii:;tance - 34,874." 1868

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 583 NM - 5 HR. MURPHY: 34,874. HR. NEARY: 34,874. "Number of cases - 8,747." Does the honourable minister have the figures there? Are these correct figures? MR. MURPHY: Wait now I have been reading them so much, they are worn out. MR. NEARY: . I have it here on page 89 of the annual report. MR. MURPHY: No, I do not want that. The member has that. I am looking for my figures on the number of cases_ 111ore documents missing. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am waiting for the honourable minister to get the figures, to get the accurate figures. MR.

MURPHY: I know the member ~ust have a lot more things to discuss. Just carry on, I will find them in a minute. MR. NEARY: Well, I will carry on and make my point, Sir, rather that delay the committee. The total cases at the end of March 1972 were 8,747 (this is short-term assistance), number of persons - 34,874; long term 16,008 - 48,039 persons, and if you add the two of these up, Mr. Chairman, add them up, mathematics was not one of my strong subjects in school but my calculation show that it comes to a total of 82,913 persons - 82,913. MR. MURPHY: I am not denying it. MR.

NEARY: The honourable minister is not denying it but he denied it a few minutes ago. MR. MURPIIY: I denied nothing. HR. NEARY: The m1nfster told UR that this yc-11r there are 91,000 pernonR on wrlfnre, 91,000 as opposed to 82,913 a yrar a~o, or almost 9,000 pen:01m more. Now the honourahlr mfniRter in ngreeinr. with mr. MR. MllRPIIY: I am not agreeing with you. Almost 9,000 persons more. MR. MURPHY: I am just nodding my head, it has become a force of habit. 1s6n

March 13. 1973 Tape 584 PK - 1 MR. MURPHY: Sure what do you want me to do,get up and fight with you? MR. NEARY: Yet we are told, Mr. Chairman, we are told hy the honourable the 'Premier that the cost that they saved was ,4 million. MR. MURPHY: Yes. MR. NEARY· Four million dollars. Yes,welfare is up. I ask the minister -to explain to me under what subheads they saved this $4 million? Now will the honourable minister tell me, was it saved under the food allowance, clothinp, allowance, houRehold maintenance? Buildinp, material seems to be the pet P1uh.1ect of the honourable the Minister of Finance.

We will deal with OOMAr. whP.n we P,et to thnt too, Sir, when we Ret to the Linerhoard Mil 1. W11 l the honournhle minh1ter please explain to this committee where t:hiR savinP, took plnce? MR. MURPHY: Tell us. MR. MURPHY: Because of the hundreds of short-term cases that came off welfare and went working, What do I have to do with the honourable member? Do I have to send him hack to kindergarten and bring him right on up through the whole thinr, again? Am I speaking in baby talk?

Is it plair enoup,h that if we had many thousands of cases saved each month - for example, let us take one month, April, we saved 180r between 1971, 1972, 1973, lROO cases left. the average he MR. ROBERTS: '1--'R. ~1URPPY: What is the averap,e monthly payment to a family? What would on short term? One hundred and fifty dollars a month? Seventy dollars a month. One hundred and fifty or two hundred dollars. Hell say it is $200 a month,there is $36,000 we save in that month. HP. NEARY: Yo11 '3!!'\"e that month 9 then you u~e it up in the next month. MR. ~~RPHY:_ llhy? Not on short-term - MR.

NFARY: -·- -- ... -- - · Because accordinr, to the figures the honourable minister r,ave rnc, you are up this year. !"_R_. __ t'.ll_R_Plf:_: RecnusP. th<.'rc wni:1 11 hur,e hirth rate in the lonr, term assistimce. The cnses ch~crc-n!'lecl, the nrnnhrr of people incrf\ased. It is based on cases. 1870

March 13, 1973 Tape 5R4 PK - 2 I may be all wet, hut if the honourable member wantR to dispute the factR that are p.1.ven to me hy the officials,! do not make thr.Re thinp,R up T p,et theM· from the records. So As I say, either we are mirncle wnr~ers, we have 9,000 mor<' ,ns thr. mtnfstrr Ant,!, wr incrensed our rateR 11pproximotely twenty percent over the year before, and still we saved $4 million. A tremendous joh I would say. Now the minister is lookin~ for an explanation. Does he want the recipe? MR. NEAPY: - --- ·-- Yes, tell us what subheads did you save it on? t-fR. MJRPFY: Oh come on, what subheads?

I will do a complete report if the member wants it? If he_just wants to he nasty - MR. NF.ARY: matter. MR. MlJRPIIY · --- --·--- - HR. NEARY: I want a complete report. I do because this is a very important Tt 1R very important, okay. Tt is very important. 1-'R. 'MURPHY: Well we will do this. No sweat. All I "1-•ill do is give the actual fip,ures here, I will take off a copy and p.ive it to the honourable member so as he can read it, and he is the expert on welfare. He has told us that himself. I would not believe it from anybody else. But the memhPT himself tells us he has been one of the best.

I have to believe him because I cannot call him a liar in this Fouse, lt is not parliamentary to do it. So I 'l-.'111 accept his word tl1at he is the expert on welfare. He was in there three years and I will say this,that nobody in history even did such a job in the Departm~nt of Social Services as the member for Rell Island did - I will ~uarantee you that. t-fR • NF./\ RY · !Ir. Chni.rmnn.

T hen rd the honourable minf Rtcr tell a caller thta morninr. on th" · Open J.~nf' l'ror,ram!l\e" that lie was not the expert on wPlfare.thflt hi' did not vnnw vcr·y much about 1t, he hn~ only hePn t.hcrr a few months. ~~JI, Sir, that hns been conf1rmrd here this afternoon hecause he does not know anything about it. MR. m.TRPHY· Please, JfR. Nf_::'\RY: Does not know anythinr, about that. !!R. MURPHY: Please. _______ ,... 1871

March 13, 1973 Tape 584 PK - 3 1-IR. NF.ARY: I want to repeat the point that I made, Sir. -~•- N_F,!,,!l,Y_· Nnw thP h11nn11r11hlo mtnl•trr 11v,r.ic,,11 with ma. That All compnred to one year ARO the numher of people on 11ocial asei11tance is up by 9,000 and I think this iA scandalous. It just goes to show how this administration has failed to carry out the promises they made in two provincial elections in this province, MR. MUJ?PHY· Hake a motion and we will get it over with. We will support it unanimously. Terrible, MR.

NEARY: But for Ottawa, Sir. poor Uncle Ottawa pouring in $11 million, over ~.oon johs created in Newfoundland under the LIP Programme,the unemployment figure today, Sir, would be up closer to twenty-six per cent. MR. t-ruRPFY: So what! MR. NEARY· We can thank our lucky stars that we have John Turner,who was criticized so heavily by the Minister of Finance here a couple of weeks ago, Thank your lucky stars that we have Uncle Ottawa,and in addition to that we have $24 mill.ion cominP, in here,a bonanza, a windfall. Sir. here we have a r,overnment that cannot even see fit to increase the food allowances. MR.

MURPHY: Who said we cannot? MR. NF.ARY: The honourable miniRter said they could not. ?-fR. MlJRPHY: The honourable minister said no such a thing. The honourable memher assumed that. MR. NF.ARY: The cost of living, Sir, is sky-high, the cost of living is gore sky-high in this provjnce. The cost of furnace oil and stove oil 1 rone sky-high. MR. mJ:PPHY : MR. !'-!F:ARY: Terrible, it is gone up two cents. No consideration whatsoever been p:iven to increasinr. the food rates and the fuel ratr.n and the clothinr, rates for the poor old welfare recfpff'nts.

P,ut hire them on, Sir, hire them on over there as fast as you cnn, $?(),non a year. $1',,0nn it yC'nr. flunkies, stoo~es, stanclini:: room only :In ConfNlr.rntion r.uUdlnr, you mtr,ht hnve to put up a new }:,uildinp, huild 1872

March 13 . 1971 Tape SM PK - 4 11 nf'W Jl,,,1.,,• cd /\!u11•11·h IV. "'1l. ffilPP!IY· JI,- complain~, nho11t unrmploymr.nt. then hr romp)nfn,i 11ho11t 1111 plv1nr pN>pl<' !nhn. MR. NEAPY: T run ri-lnt1nr. the extrnvar,,mce of th1,i Tory Government to the poor old welfare recipients who doeR not Fet any consideration at all. ~- ~RPJIY· I cannot let that remark go, Sir, we increased the rates,and that is an absolute falsehood. MR. NF.ARY: Ha, Rit down! Sit down! MR. MRUPHY: It is not true. It iR not true. If you want to check the record, we increased pretty well every area since we came on the scene, ~r. Chairman.

MR. NF.ARY: Hr. Chairman, will you ask the honourable minister to take his seat, Sir? I was rather interested in a statement the honourable Premier made, I am not sure if he repeated a statement recently in Corner Brook, but he made this statement some time ago that this government was goinp. to completely reform the social welfare programmes in this province. The honourable Premier said, "If the Government of Canada do not go along with our proposal" he said, "we will go on our own:' ls that what the honourable Premier said said some time ago? I am not sure if he repeated it in Corner Brook, ~,fr.

Chairman, the other day. But if Ottawa does not go along with the ~overnment's proposal to reform social welfare programmes in this province. I pot the impression from what the honourable Premier said, that the province would 11;0 alonp: on its own. .AN PON. ~t!JlY.:R: Inaud:f .hlc . MR. NF.AFY · Nonsense. 1 The honourahle thC"c Premier Raid :It. I was rather interested in what he had to say. Rut now the honourahle member says it i<! not true.

Well, I am glad it is nnt true, Sir, hecause J. would not want to see this poor,1:fttle,old province,stuck out here :In the mirldle of the Atlantic, try to pay for sociR) welfare pror,rallll'\e!l on the1 r own. l!nle,rn we h:I t oil or ~as off thr Crnnd nankn or off the coast here,

March 13, 1973 Tape 584 PK - 5 Newfoundland will never he able to foot the bill. Sfr, I w1>uld nlAo like to know from the minister, we have heard so much rec~ntly ahout a proposal heinr, put up to Ottawa, a proposal with built-in incentives,so we are told.to encourage people to go to work. The Premier has talked about it lately, the minister has talked about it and the former minister has talked about it.

I know all about it because for the first time in this province here we had incentives for people to go to wor~ .They were hrought in by the previous Liberal Administration, $30,00 a month, free, to earn it free, $60.00 if you were married. The first time it was ever done to my knowledge in this province. Now the administration are copying what we did~and riFhtly so. They are talking about increasing the incentives.and rightly so. It should be done.

The guaranteed annual income that I spoke about before, Sir, has a motivator built into it whereby,and this will encourage people to go to work, a motivator build in whereby people will be paid;fifty per cent of what they earn they could keep it. Now we hear about this great incentive programme. Well I would like to know more about it. Will the honourable minister tell us about that? Could we have a copy of it? MF. MURPHY: What? MR. NF.ARY~ This proposal that - , Mr. Chairman, look,is he still smaJtinr, under tha~ programme this morning? MR. MURPHY: I am really lashed to pieces. Look at my back. MR.

NE/IRY: He has cut tre ribbons. He cut the ribbon, Sir. Would the honourable mini~ter, is he prepared to table this proposal? MR. MURPHY· MR. NFARY: HR. HURPJTY: MR. Nr.~.P.Y: How can you stand it over there boys, at all? Will hf> tell us "'hat the proposal is all about? Absolutely not,~ivinr, away traclf> secrets. Ahsolutely n6t. Mr.

Chninnnn, T woulcl be interestecl in seeing that proposal bccaw1e T clouht very rn11ch ff thr.rr. is nny such propoRal. lf there be, it iR prohnhly too riclic11lo1rn to tnlk nhout. !'_l:'_. _ _t-~J}l):ll.Y: Now thf' 1111imher hnR lost hin chnncc.I picked h1.m as the propl'r one to nclmi.nj,;tl'!r Lhnt proJ:rnmmc. Now he has lost his chance. 1874

March 13, 1973 Tape 584 PK - 6 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chainnan, the sum is too much for anyone to bear, but this is something that you will put up with in public life. This is the bill for Intedm Supply, Mr. Chairman, and all it asks is the authority of the House to carry on the gc,vernment for April and May tmtil the detailed estimates can he approved by the government.

When the detailed estimates come before the House, there is debate on every item and the p;ovemment 's pro,-,;ramme for the followin~ year is outlined in it~ All this asks for some money on accoun.t,so that short-term assistance can be paid in April 1 so that long-term assistance can be paid in April, so that salaries of civil servants can be paid in April, so that the teachers can be paid in April.

Normally the practice of the last government was to leave this until the las't day of l'farch, the last several da:ys of March, at which time of course the Opposition Would have no choice but to go alon11: and pass it9 othP.rwise these people would not he paid. I spoke with the Leader of the Opposition about it this yaar. 1875

March 13, 1973 Tape 585 he assured me there would be no harangue on it, that there would he no filibuster, that there would be some questions and discussion on it and yet here we see today nothing hut a bare-facedpolitical harangue. If the hon. gentleman opposite were really concerned about the unemployed or if hewere really concerned about those people on short­ term relief or any of the rest of it,you would not mind so much;but you know that he has no concern for them at all and all he is doing is making a political speech.

At the end of January, I do not have the figures for the end of February, but at the end of January this year the heads of families and/or single persons in receipt of short-term basic social assistance, at December this , 1972, was 8,682 and the same month last year it was 11,633. That is just one of the reasons why short­ term assistance is down. He asked the hon. minister what subhead. What tripe. What nonsense.

The subhead is short-term assistance and the amount paid out in short-term assistance this year is leas than it was last year, $4 million less and as the hon, minister said,he did not have to ask for supplementary supply because of that. Now what about Uncle Ottawa. The hon. gentleman opposite is praising Uncle Ottawa.

Why should we praise Uncle Ottawa when JM - 1 the unemployment rate in Newfoundland last month was eighteen per cent and this month is sixteen per cent and it is the Government of Canada at Ottawa has the primarly responsibility for monetary policy and financial policy in this country and it has the resources to combat itl Not this little province which has next to nil resources, which has no flexibility, which has a job to get a hand on a dollar, why should we praisP Ottawa when thf' unemployment here is eighteen per cent? We should he assaulting Ottawa when the unemployment here is eighteen per cent.

I do not p,o to Ottawa to kiss the hon. John Turner, any part of him. He is only giving us what we are due. 1876

March 13, 1973 Tape 585 JM - 2 This $24 million in tax equalization that the hon. r,entlemen ovrm111ft,. :ir,. Rn fond of cryJnv. 11hout 11nrl howllnP, 11bout thf11 y•ar,111 only put or what rlu,y are- paytne tit• ev01n luave-not province• 1n Canada. Should we Ret down on our knees to worm over that? Not on your life,we should not,as it is not enough. In the last five years, five years ago the average unemployment rate in Newfoundland waa eight per cent a year and last year it was twelve per cent and the year before that it was eleven point something per cent.

The unemployment rate in Newfoundland~on the average,for a year has gone from eight per cent four or five years ago to twelve,despite tax equalization and despite DREE and despite all the talk you hear about overcoming regional economic expansion and that disadvantaged provinces are being assisted and the like. The policies are not successful. Why should we act as paupers and beggars to Ottawa? Not likely. We are not going to . We do not have to. They control the Bank of Canada. Well, what is the difference between them and us? The difference is they can print money.

They have the Bank of Canada,and we cannot print money down here. What is another difference? That their income tax reforms up in Ottawa, the new income tax that they brought in,that started the end of 1971,has given them twice the revenue they estimated, twice that tax reform,so that they have taken from the people of Canada a tremendously increased amount of money more than they anticipated or expected,so that their deficit last year was only half of what they forecast. Now what are they doing with the money?

It is the provinces that have the responsibilities in education and health and welfare and water and sewerage and municipalities, the real rcsponsibilitirR, th~ hiRh prioriticR,with the cost increasin~ every year,end it 1R the provtncrs thnt have the moRt infl~xihle tax resources. We only h:ivc> our little share of the income tnx. We do not have any indirect taxes. We only have the provincial sales tax. Our 1877

March 13, 1973 Tape 585 JM - 3 tax resources are very limited,what we can get on our own here in this province or any of the others. Ottawa has the flexible resource~. They can get the money but they do not have the constitutional responsibilities for these things that cost so much. Well, are they offering to turn over some of these tax resources to the provinces? No, for political reasons they want to hold on to that revenue and instead of transferring responsibilities or transferring tax sources,so we can stand on our feet,they want to keep us in hock to them.

They want to be the big Uncle Ottawa while we are in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and PEI and the other, Quebec, ~e are to be kept indebted to them so that we dare express our own opinions,we might lose s0111e money next year. Well, we are not worried about that. We are not going up hat in hand to Ottawa. If the unemployment insurance rate here is eighteen per cent, look to Ottawa. What can this little government do? Look what we had to borrow last year to barely keep moving. Look what we will have to borrow in the year ahead.

We do not have any Bank of Canada here to print the money for us and we are spending every cent we can to keep the island going forward and to do roads and construct hospitals and schools and the rest,and the hon. gentlemen across know it as they were in the government for the last three years. They know our position;so do not talk to me about ~enerous Ottawa. Ottawa wants to hold on to all that money and to give us a little dapple next year of $24 million. Why? Because it is a ploy in federal-provincial relations.

Give the have-not provinces a bit more money and hopefully they wi]l keep quiet,when Ottawa faces Ontario and Quebec this year and discusses post-secondary education and health costs and the rest of it. Well, we are not interested in that and we are not grateful for it. We think it is only what we are due and not what we really are due. It is not what we want. You talk of ,overcoming rcp,ional disparity. What is Ottawa's po11i tion on ~ns nnd oil? It is the four Atlantic Provinces that have 1878

March 13, 1973 Tape 585 JM - 4 those resources off our shores and Quebec, five of the have-not provinces. Yet.instead of offerinR to turn over ninety per cent of the revenue or some amount like that to uA,to let us stand on our own feet,they are fighting up there to keep all they can for themselves. O~e policy is inconsistent with the other. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. CROSBIE: I am answering the hon. gentleman and his talk of unemployment and his talk of Uncle Ottawa and how we should be grateful to Ottawa for this, that and the other thing.

I say we should thank Ottawa for eighteen per cent unemployment and sixteen per cent this month. That is what we should thank them for, do not look to the Government of Newfoundland. The hon. gentleman talks about the winter employment programme and the LIP programme, these great programmes from Ottawa. The winter employment progranune, that is $12 million Ottawa lends to us and we have to pay it back to Ottawa.

That is how generous the winter employment programme is and they will forgive us the interest on the labour costs, on the labour part,one hundred per cent during the winter and fifty per cent during the rest of the year,but the rest of the money has to be repaid to Ottawa. It is a loan to the province. The province pays it back. That is great, generous Uncle Ottawa,overcoming winter unemployment of eighteen per cent in Newfoundland,by lending us $12 million,whi~h we pay back to them. We are the debtor. They are the creditor. It is not a grant. They are not making it available to us for no~hing.

They are loaning it to us and that is the great, generous John Turner and Uncle Ottawa and the ~reat, generous Liberal Government at Ottawa. Junk! They are not generous. If they stepped over a nickel,you know what would happen to their posterior, ~t would snap at it. They do thinr,!I for their own political r,ood. Do not talk to me about Rencrnus Uncle Ottawa and the Rencroue winter employment 1s7n

March 13, 1973 Tape 585 pro~r•mme and the ,t41!nl'1·ou11 thl• and thci st•nerou  that. Generoeity 1• not in their nature. l'hey have the aame tailing as most politicansi they want to keep the power in their own hands. Th3t is why, lf the hon. gentleman wants to talk about unemployment he should look to Uncle Ottawa and talk to Uncle Ottawa and talk to Uncle Don and talk to Uncle John and talk to Uncle Pierre and all the rest of them up there about unemployment.Because if he thinks that this provincial government of Newfoundland can overcome unemployment in Newfoundland. he ia crazy.

It cannot and it does not matter if the govenunent is NDP, Liberal, P.C., we can only do so much but we cannot overcome it. only Uncle Ottawa can overcome it and hon. gentlemen opposite well know that,and to hear the hon. cynic get up with all the guff that he gets up with and talk about the figures and those on relief and not on relief. There is one thing that Ottawa did that helped last year,and that is that they increased the unemployment insurance and changed the regulations there. That brought more money into the province last year, to the people of the province. So, Mr.

Chairman, let us just get our sights set right. If we have high short-term relief and if we have high unemployment this government can only do so much about it. Unfortunately that is not too much,and the last government could not do much about, it and only Uncle Ottawa has the financial resources to do much about it,and Uncle Ottawa is playing his own game up in Ottawa. Mr. Chairman, that is a little bit off the subject of social services but just as much on the subject as the hon. gentleman was,and there will be lots of time to debate this in the 1880 JH - 5

!-1arch 13, 1973, Tape 586, Page 1 -- apb AN nnN. ~11".?-'IIFl1 : ::1,,.,,,..,1 · nfopprd. ~IR •. C~'.(IS 11 IE • I do not care if it stops or not. If thP honournhle ·- .... . ,, .. ~ member wnnts to Cl'\rry on,that is up to him. I move that the vote carrv. ~. P.OTIF.P.TS • r•r. rtinirmnn, it is not neceRsnry tn move thnt thr vote carry,thr vote has heen put. I assume the s11mr Jeawnv will be cxtendrd to us as we extended to the honournhle ~entlE"TTlnn,as he has touched on a couple of very important points.

First of all, let me say that I am somewhat ta~rn aback to hear the honourable r,entlrman speak and I do hope the Premier will say a few words :In this detate,because l'. want to know whether what the honourable said was tl1c policy of this administration. MR. CROSBIE: "l"R. ROBFRTS: ----- -·--- - - If it is not, I can.;. 1-'r. r.hairman, I heard with considera~le interest and a great deal of patience the honourable r:entleman. Would he be i;rood enou~h to extend me the same courtesy. He seems to feel that the rules apply to everybody except him. 1-'l' .• CROSBIE: no not start by whining. HR. ROBERTS: 1-'r.

Chairman, the honourable gentleman who has been called a ·i-ully' ' is once again showinp: his bullying tendencies. Let him be ouiet, let him listen, maybe he can even learn, He would not admit that, but TT1aybe he can. F:lrst of all I would like to know whc-ther a statement m;ide by the grntJP.man, the Finance ~jnfster,represents the- policy of this admin:lstration. I would he very surprised jf it does, hrcnu~e the honnurRhle r<'ntlrmnn sni<l,nnd I brlfevc I nm ~uotfnr him Accurntcly, thnt tJ1.., r.ovrrnm..,nt of thf8 Province• cnnnnt ov('r,om.., unc>mp]oymrnt. T hnvr n11ot,·d ldm :1cn1rntrly.

It m:iv Rurnrfsc- him to J,now thnt T cln not df,;:1f'H'f"' ~,lrh tl,nt. I 11111 <111ltr nw.1r,• of the· conntft11tfnnnl srtup, thfnJ, nil honn11rnhl,• f•rnt)Pmr-n nr<', Sir. Tlw l'lf>nr•t.1ry pnliry :l!'l the- r<'spom;!b!lftv of tl11· ,c·ntrnl f•.ovrrm·1<•nt, th•· f,•d<•r/Jl rovc-rr1m,·nl. 1S81

•,I ~arch 13,~Q73, Tape 586, Page 2 -- aph Fiscal policy is shared !o1ntly. I suppose it is shared more than jointly because the municipal1~ies have a certain de~ree of right in the, fiscal field. They have the power to levy taxes. True it is sub .1ect to provincial le~:lslation and in !'!Ost cases the provincial administrative control,ns in Newfoundland,where no council can strike a tax rate and have it effective until and unless it is approved by the Hln:lster of ?.funicipal Affairs. The minister wns v~ry eloouent, very eloquent.

It all sounded so familiar - I have never in my life heard so much galling and utter hynocrisy as the honourable gentleman just p,ot off. I sat in this House the last three or four years and listened to the honourable gentleman, sometiMes with interest sometimes not with interest, sometimes with il'lpatience, sometb1es not with impatience, sometimes even with understnading. When he was on this side, Sir, he sat here night and day lashing, attacking personally, politically, every w;i.y hE' could th:lnk. of, as low and as h:lph as he could ~o,the men who were then in the Covernmf'nt of th:ls Province.

I was one of those men. Some of what the honourable gentleman said was correct. ~fuether or not it was correct, the people of Newfoundland listened to it. It :Influenced greatly the people of Newfoundland,and that is fair enough again. There is no ouarrel from ~nybody on this side, ~r. Speaker, with the results of nny election. The people of Newfoundl~nd decide whom they "Wish to be their mell'bers in this llouRe and whom they wish to be their povernment.nnd there is no quarrel from us.

The honourRhlc rcntlemnn Rtood up,t:l~e and time apain,and made :It out thnt the C:ovc•rnmrnt of this Prov:lnce wns somehow doinr, somethinr, wronp. Now ·thnt hr i!I :In tll<' povPrnnrnt, we• nre hN1rfnr. the same Urr•rl old E'xcuscf! clr11r.1'.f'<I out. We hl'..'RT how hP :If! !':o hir.,roinr to ntt.iw:i, " Bir; Hr:ivc John", liC' r,rts on his 11:lrplnne>, r,oes up to OttawcJ. Mr. Cha:lrman, his arrurnent was completely 11n<l utterly f:iJ];:icious. Fnua]:l~at1on :Is not nny rift from Ottawn, it :Is the only thinr the honour:ihlr r.cntleman hns asked for, and I suhm:1 t, the honour:ihl e the 1882

~(arch 13, 1973, Ta?e 586, Page 3 -- apv Finance ~•inister was about the most surprised person in Newfoundland when he realized that }fr. Turner, the Finance l 1inister, At Ottawa,had propose<l ::incl ,e;11h11enu<'n t 1 y the 1!01111P c, f C:otm11on11 h:wr ::ipprovecl n chnnpr In thf' ,·mwl (7,111 Ion fono11ln whld1 !urn thr rffc•rl of p, lvlnp, 11,1,, provJncr $:•1, mllllon (•Y.trn th1s yc-nr. We I\T~· v.olnr to po from $159 million,in round fiRures, to $173 million. ~14? million, I am sorry, $149 million is what we would have gotten if the existing formula had stayed in effect.

The $173 million is what it is estimated that the r.overnment of Canada will pay to us this coming vear on the new formula. Enual1zation is not something we should hoast about. Equnlizat:lon is a forr.1 of guaranteed income, it is a form of social assistance, Because, vhat the C:overnme .nt of Canadn say is; "Here is what tax rntcs. standnr<l tax ratc-s,produce by way of r<'venues from thr taxpnyers of th f s prov f nee. or the taxpnyl'TS of th1 s country. t Jmra the numhrr of pPor,l,. In <-nc.h province-. If n prov1ncr does not r.c-t that much, thc-n W<' wJll mnve :It up," and they do make 1t up.

All they did a fortnii,ht ar,o or whenever Mr. Turner brou~ht 1n his hudP,et speech was to say that they will take another factor into account. What f11ctor? 7he factor that :In most provinces suhstant:lal revenues are raised throur.h property taxation,for educational purposes. That is not the case in Newfoundland. We do not haven v,reat deal of that type of tnxation, m11inly.I suspect, because we do not have the tax base to support it. Tt-r hono11n1hl C' r<'ntlC'm:rn stnncls up, lie rltoocl up on hudp,et n:1µ.ht and saJcl 11<' condr·nin,.cl John Turner.

Th<'n the- m•xt mnrninr . he woi·e up nn<l h<' dfncovC'red he !i;icl nn extra ~'JI, mt1Uon,wldc-h snv<'<l him from a whoMp:lnp,. whonpinr tnx :Increase. I am rnther nlenr.ecl nhout that. T do not th:1.nk anybody in tlewfouncllan<l has ;iny dC'si r<' to P"Y mor<' t;ixes. Now he stands up and blackru:i.rds Ottm:a. I nm not here to d<'f cn<l Ottawa, thcy :ire (!Ufte cnpahle of spe:i.l<inr, for thf'Msrlv<'s, hut J !'Im not prep:iretl to stand :In th:!s llouc;e, sit :In th:l.s comm:lttr<' nnd hNir a Minister of the Cro~m,f Ir!'lt of 1111,r.iv<' up a confer.slon of <lc-fC':it, J 1,., 0 ') uOJ

March 13, 1973, Tape 586, Page 4 -- apb hnvo n"'v"'r l1e-11rrl 1t 11prrch likt- tt. He hni, bC'rn tn office II little more thnn A yPnr and th£' prob] Pl"ll'I hnvr ovrrwhelmrd him, the problems that we could not An)V£' 1 Admtttrdly, no heRltntlon nt all in a<lmittfnp, thnt wr rn11ltl mH ~11lvri lhn,u• prnhlrm~. nut ndm1tt1np: it now, he ie overwl1elmed, he cftnnot hack it, he cannot take it, he loses hie temper. blows off, gets off with a vicious personal attack on my colleagues questioninr, his motives.

Your honour, we have drawn Your Honour's attention to it, the rules say nuite clearly; "No member may attack another member's motives." The honourable r,entleman,the Minister of Finance,who wraps himself in his hair shirt, stood here and attacked my collearue's motives. He can attack my, colJeague's actions, but his motives are a different question. He stands and I hope the Premier will stand, be it fo, a short time or a long time, I want to know whether this administration have p,iven up - they have been in office a year, fourteen riontha.

The Minister of Finance stands and he says; "We cannot lick unemployment." In effect, what he is sayinp; is they have given up. I do not thinJ, for a moment the.y have. I expect fully that the Preriier will stand and say that they have not given up, that they are workin~ night and day. They made a deal with John Shaheen to try and produce employment in this province and while not debating the merits of that deal. there will be ample opportunity for that, that is the sort of thing that has to be done. The honourabl£' p:entlC'mnn frol'l St.

John's PeRt, the Minister of Fin:mc£', finds that hnr<l to tnke. lie stood here time and time again in this llousr on c•very vote, and j f he wan ts to ta] k about an nllercd f1libustrr,hr fs the onr to tnlk. Personally hP consumed more pnRes of llnnsarcl than any dozr.n r,entlcmcn on eithE'r side.over the years, now he is p,ct ting a little tender skinned. Ile came to me ,outside the chamber, and a5ked if we were prepared to allow this bill to p.o through quickly and we sn1d· "Of course we shall; we will have the main debate," I stood here in this connitt~c and said it.

It did not Mean we are go1np. to let it po without drhnte, of course not. 1884

March 13, 1973, Tape 586, Par.e 5 -- apb When the ~ember for St. John's Centre and the member for Bell I~l~nd rrnct nnd net unon ~nch othPr, rnch of them hnA n very forceful style of prescntinR hfs nr~umente and ench provokes the other, I find no complaint with that. We cannot debate in this committee,what is the point of having the committee? Let it be understood that there is no sweetheart deal, I stood and said in the co11DT1ittee what the understandinp was.

The honourable gentleman,the ~inister of Finance, does nothinr, at all to speed understandin~s,by intemperate and malicious personal attacks upon other ~entlemen. I do not pronose to deal with all the points he hrought up. He rather shocked me; I never thourht I would hear him. I figured that he would take on the problems of this province with some courage and some faith. Instead, we get a confession of defeat and defeatism of the worst sort. I did not think I would hear that from the honourable gentleman.

I have never pretended that the problems of this province can be solved easily, never, nor did any of the honourahle gentlemen who ever sat there. ~r. Smallwood when he was Premier,never pretended 18 ~H' l U •'

Karch lJ. 1973 Tape no. .587 Pagel - KRW Mr. Roberts • th~ problems of this province ·could be solved easily,but he did not give up. I agree he did not solve them. Certainly, he did not solve them. AN HON. MEMBER: He did not give up. HR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman can say what he wants about that. Maybe he gave up too soon. But at least he never stood in the House and admitted defeat - defeatism of the worst sort. HR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I heard what the honourable gentleman said. I heard what he said, Mr. Chairman. I have no doubt that I shall hear it again, again and again. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Chairman, point of order. Being a rooky member of the House of Assembly, I would like to question one thing. We are presently debating Item VII, Interim Supply, dealing with .Social Services. I fail to see the relevance of the speeches of the hon. Leader of the Opposition to this point. I think we should stay relevant and discuss Social Services only. MR. ROBER.TS: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. My remarks have the same relevancy to the head on which we are as do the remarks of the hon. Finance Minister. We are talking about unemployment.

Unemployment in this province is directly related to social assistance,as a number of honourable gentlemen on the other side stated quite clear. HR. CHAIRMAN: The point of order by the member for Bonavista South is correct. However, there is great latitude given in debate in the House and it is quite true that the hon. Minister of Finance did make a very lengthy speech that did not particularly relate to Head VIII, Social Services. It is generally conceded that the Leader of the Opposition is to be permitted to reply to thia,to a point of that speech.

However, both honourable members.technically Bpeaking,are completely out of order. 1886

March 13, 1973 Tape no. 587 Page 2 HR. ROBJl'.RTS: Mr. ChAirman, •• I wa• aytni bfor  th~ aontloman --·----- - Crom Oonavl•t• South decided that th rule  that applt J to hi• ida did not apply to the other or vice vera, the policy adumbrated by the hon. Minister of Finance struck me as a policy of defeatism. I have never in my life heard a senior minister (the gentleman 1• a senior minister. He is one of the leaders of the government) confess quite so candidly, quite so shockingly his inability to deal with the problems which face this province. I do not believe it is the policy of the administration.

The Premier ( I saw him making a few notes there) will doubtless speak. He shall certainly be given, on this side, every courtesy and latitude. I hope he will just say flatly that that is not the policy and that the administration will do what they can to tackle the problems of this province, particularly the problem of unemployment. They will do what they can. They do not expect to achieve everything but they will work as hard u they can and do what they believe is beet. In due course the people shall judge. That I can understand. That is a reasonable policy.

It is the policy that we followed, We were slandered, vilified and abused by the Minister of Finance for it. There was no complaining, no whining, we sat and took it and eventually the people made their decision. So be it! In due course, the people shall rule again. Now to come back to the social assistance vote. I think it has been fairly thoroughly debated. I think the points which emerge are that the number of people receiving short-term assistance in this province has decreased.

The reason why it is decreased,! submit, there are two reasons; first of all the money which the Government of Canada have put into this province, throur.h the LIP Prograaune, the local initiative's project, which has provided jobs for about 6,000 people - these are federal government figures. I see no reason to quarrel with them. I cite them from today's issue of the "Evening Telegram." It is about 6,000 people and it is a total cost of about $11.5 million. The other 1837

March 13, 1973 'Iape no. 587 reuon vhy valfar• vote  •r• lower, the totAl amount on welfare 1• lover is that th• unemployment inurance regulations have been changed. If we want some figures, it may be of interest to the colllllittee to know that in December. 1971, there were 15,225 claimants receiving unemployment insurance benefits in this province. In December, 1972, the comparable figure, Sir, was 23,413, an increase of approximately 8,200, a percentage increase of fifty-four per cent. The figures were even 1110re startling in Auguat,1972, as opposed to August,1971.

They vent from 10,400 in 1971 to 24,700 in August,1972, an increase of 14,400; 140 per cent increase. In October, 1971, there were 13,800 people receiving unemployment insurance benefits in this province. In October,1972, there were 27,400 p~ople receiving unemployment insurance benefits, an increase of about 98.5 per cent. If the figures have dropped for short-term assistance ( short-term assistance is a court of last resort, Mr. Chairman. Short-term assistance is where a man must turn for aid when he has no other alternative, when he has no cash and no income.

It is the court of last resort.) we should welcome it. Let us not delude ourselves into thinking that it is any achievement of any government. It may be partially an achievement of the Government of Canada,through the LIP Programme,because if those 6,000 people were not working at LIP Project&, every one of them would either be on social assistance or would be there by the time the ice goes in the spring and the fishery begins agai~. Those 6,000 jobs are saving the Province of Newfoundland the welfare assistance,either now or in a few weeks or months.

The real reason that social assistance is down is, of course, the unemployment insurance is up dramatically. When the Minister of Finance gets up and condemns Ottawa for doing nothing, he should at least give them credit for what they are doing. When the various gentlemen in the administration, the spokesmen for it, claim that they are doing so much, 1888

March 13, 1973 Tape no. 587 Page 4 thci rural devolopmrnt authority - the 500 people takon off octal assistance because jobs were found for the wage earners in those families. I would like to know,by the way,how many of them were LIP Projects. How many of them were permanent jobs. I would like to know how many of the A.RDA jobs were permanent.. There will be ample opportunity to debate those. They should be honest about it and tell the full story. The fact that social assistance is down does not mean that we have had a particularly good year in Newfoundland. The unemployment rate is still horribly high.

Sixteen per cent is much too high. I agree completely with the Minister of Finance that it is much too high. Let me say two other things at this juncture anyway. First of all the Premier,on the opening day of this session,cited some stastics to show that this was a reasonably goo·i year, the year past in Newfoundland. These figures were correct. There is no argument there. I think the conclusion was a correct one. It has been a reasonably good year.

He, of course, neglected to point out the reason that it had been a good year was the dramatic increase in unemployment insurance, the dramatic increase in LIP Projects which,after all,began last year. This is the second year that that programme has been in force. I think that fact should be recorded. Again we will be stating it time and time again. It is an important fact. Secondly, let me say that the debate on this bill will obviously go on as long as any hopourable > member wishes to speak on it. But int~mperate outbursts by the hon.

Minister of Finance, who is unable to control himself, unable to take any criticism, he is the only one on that side. The Premier can take it. The Minister of Education can take it. He sits there quite patiently. He may be fuming inside, the Premier may be fuming inside; they sit and take it. They realize that it is part of the parliamentary process, just as we sit and take it and at times we fume inside. Let the Minister of Finance learn to take it; the debate will go much more quickly.

Hy collea~u<', the member for Bell Island, had a few questions. lie had some difficulty in having them understood by the p,entlemen opposite.

Karch l3, 1973 Tape no. S87 •••• 5 That 1 aubait i• not the fault of my colleague. He had aome gTeat dUU~l.ty in gattinit anavera but he aucceeded in getting some infomation. There are a number of otb111r quHtiou we intend to ask. Bow quickly the debate will go, vill depend on the atiitude of the ministry. 1390

March 13, 1973 Tape 588 IB-1 Mr. Chainnan. the Minister of Finance gets up and glosses over. Oh, it is a mere little payment, on account, sort of a token, the soup is on, a little pin money to keep her going. Well, he has not explained it with any satisfaction.why the estimates are going to be delayed so much. Restructuring does not impress me. That is a matter of shuffling a few subheads from one place to another. Also, he sort of glossed over the fact that we are being asked to approve the expenditure of $86,000,000,in blank. We do not know if there are any ne1o1 progrn.mmes in this.

We do not know if there are any new level~ of expenditure. We can do some rough nr1thmetic to multiply by six each suhhesd And get Rome comparison with lsst year. The ministers have not come Jn and sa1d whether there are any new programmes in this, whether there are any new policies. That is why we have to ask. It is a reasonahle question to ask, I submit,and certainly we are ~oing to go on asking them. Now, let me just draw to a close by saying that I do hope the Premier says a few words. The Minister of Finance has raised a very important point.

I do not believe for a mi~ute that even the administration we now have has given up on this province,but if one leaves the Minister of Finance's remark~ unchallenged and uncorrected, that is the impression he gave. Maybe the Finance Minister will say a few words. If so.that is well and good,but I should like to hear from the Premier,after all he is leader of the government. MR. CROSBIE: I do not want to speak to any further great length on this but I do want to correct the impression that the Leader of the Opposition is tryinp, to give.

Of course, we always have to listen to his little homilies on behavior and the rest of it,but we are r,r.ttJng used to that. He is thr sole repository of all function in this !louse. Well, the honourahle p,c-ntleman is completelv tw1st1np: ancl m:!Rrr.present:1 .nr, and dr.celvinr: the• House- on whnt I said,a,=; :my honourable gentleman here who llstc-ncd hr.nrd. l hnve given no counsel of dcspnlr. I do believe this, Mr. r.tlllJrmnn, J do not br.l:lcve in attemptinp, to fool the people 1891

March 13, 1973 Tape 588 IB-2 of Newfoundland. I believe in fAcing the facts And I believe in the truth. The truth snrl the factA are•• I stated them,that this province, this Provincial Government of Newfoundland,by itself cannot overcome the unemployment problems of this province and there is not a Provincial Government that can do it, perhaps with the exception of Alberta. I do not th1nk that even Ontario can do likewise. It is only the federal government that can do it. That is the statement I made. It was no counsel of despair, it was a statement of the facts.

If we were prepared to give up or if I were, I would not be here;but I do not believe that the people of Newfoundland should be fooled. There is no government of this province,formed by any party or a government formed of eighteen of the best men in Canada today or in the world,who can overcome the problem of tmemplovment in Newfoundland,with the resources that this province has. It cannot be done. It can only be done,if it can ever be done. with the help of the Rovemment of Canada. That is the point that I made and these are the people who must be looked to if the problem is ever to be overcome.

The honourahle gentleman,when he trys to pretend that I said anything different,is deceiving the House and is telling an untruth. MR. ROBERTS: Before the Premier speaks; The honourable gentleman is obviously angry and has gone a bit too far. He is not allowed to say, as I understand the rules,that I told an untruth. He may debate. That is fine,but I suggest the honourable gentleman should be asked to with­ draw the remark,if the rules are as I understand them. HR. CROSRT~: I will sny that he d1d not deliberately tell an untruth. lie unconsciously told an 1mtruth becnu~e apparently he did not hear me properly. MR.

ROHERTS: Mr. Chnfrman, one cnnnot tell An untruth unconsciously. The word truth impli~s nn element of mens rea. If the honourahle gentlemrtn says that T mad~ a stntement that was untrue, let him stand behind it. If not, let him withdraw it. I heard quite clearly what I he said on his first intervention in the debate in the committee and quite clearly what he sa{d on his second intervention and quite clearly 1892

March lJ, J97J Tape 588 IB-3 Yhnt h• an1d on hlB thlrd .tntetvention. He rnn d•hnte. That ta fine hut he 1• not 111Jow11d hy the rules to .11ay th11t peophi are makinK untrue Rtatements. MR. CROSJ\IE: Mr. Chairman, we know very well this gentleman knows the rules. Several weeks ago he called the leader of the House,here on the government side,a liar. He called him a liar five or six times, put on a disP,raceful exhabition and refused to withdraw it.

I say,and I stick by it one hundred per cent,that the honourable gentleman whether consciously or unconsciously - and I will give him the benefit of the doubt, I will say unconsciously - has told an untruth. I never said that this province should give uo. I never counselled despair I said that this province cannot by itself, this government or any government of Newfoundland, beat the unemployment problem. That is what I said and not what the honourable gentleman - ~. ROBERTS: To a point of order. If the honourable minister is - MR. CROSBIE: I certainly do not withdraw it and I will not. MR.

ROBERTS: He is now telling untruths again. I did call the honourable Rouse Leader a liar. I think that he was lying,as a matter of fact,but I did withdraw the statement. If Your Honour wishes to refer to Ransa~d, he will find that upon the request of the speaker I withdrew the state- ment.as I was required to do. AN HONOURABLE ~MBF.R: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I am quite willing to get into it again. I have had the pleasure of speaking with my father since,and my father has some strong views on that as well. Mr.

Chairman, if the honourable gentleman wiRh to debate the point,! am happy hut I would consider it a closerl incident. If he wish to reopen 1t, I would be indeed happy to hut,ns I come hack to the point, I do not r~nl]v cnre whnt the honourable the HintRt~r oF Finance Rays in dt?hntc. Thnt f II fine-. I Rhn 1l Ray wlu1 t I hfl 11 eve, 11ub.1cct to the rul~s. lie RhAlJ 11ny whnt he hclfcvf's,irnh1c-ct to the rull'R. Thr. ru .lr.11 do hnvc Rome­ thinR to sny - I think Your Honour probably hnR r.omc cf tntion11 therr. now about members cal lin~ other members liars 11nrl uttf'r1ng untruths. We can 1893

March 13, 1973 Tape 588 IB-4 TMke &tAtement~ to the effect thAt •n honourable gentleman's statement ta not correct but let the honourable Minister of Finance be man to abide by the rules. MR. CHAIR?-f.AN: To that point of order, it is unparliamentary, unacceptable for one member t~ charge another with uttering a deliberate falsehood, In the opinion of the Chair,th• ~inister of Finance has explained what he did say and while he may have cloaked it in sematics nevertheless the Chair rules that he did not accuse the Leader of the Opposition with uttering a deliberate falsehood. MR.

MOORES: I will speak verv briefly on this subject as it has been so broadened since we started here this afternoon. It is very under­ standable, Sir, why the Leader of the Opposition has not understood what the ~in1ster of Finance had to say. If he had been in the House for all of the time when the honourable member for Bell Island was speaking,! am sure he would have been more confused than he is at the present ti.me because the particular speech that the member from Bell Island gave is a total waste of time for this honourable House. To get back to the point at hand;- First.

Sir. the min1R~P~ of Finance did not say that we were admitting defeat. He was saying that this province has a very serious problem. It is to me almost amusing to see the opposition debating Ottawa, leaning on Ottawa politically. Because there is a Liberal r.overnment in Ottawa they automatically assume that they have been adopted,which is not necessarily the case even hy the more stalwarts in the Liberal Party in Ottawa. What was said hy the Minister of Finance,ae I understood it, Mr. Chairman, is that the control of most of our fiscal policies and monetary policies are controlled by Ottawa.

The fact is that we as a province should not always be going., cap in hand, to Ottawa, that we should be prepared to stand on our own, that we should be prepared to take a stand that may not be always totally agreeable to Ottawa. We have gone throuP,h a lonJ!; number of years when we have had the r,ovemment of Cannda ~yndrome. Maybe thnt is why we have never

~arch 13, 1973 Tape 588 IB-5 really made any progress on our own,because of the cap in hand attitude of the previnu~ ~dminfRtrat1nn. about Interim Supply. Interim Supply,as has been explained,is for the months of A~ril and May,to ensure that the civil servants are paid, that the bills of the government are met and so on, The debate on what the government policy is can be well done in estimates.

Here we have today the honourable member from Bell Island speaking for an hour, speakinp, absolutely unadulterated political ~arbage, personalities be1n~ bandied back and forth across the House, by both sides,hut particularly by yourself. Here we are, ~r. Speaker, dealing in personalities when we as a representative of the people are supposed to be getting a job done. We have a lot of important legislation to get through this House.

I hope there are members on both sides but particularly the member from Bell Island who realize that maybe the legislation and the interests of the people comes even before himself on stage or what political m,~rks he can gain. Mr. Speaker, I move that we adjourn this debate . M~ . RORF.RTS:_ Mr. Chairm~n, that the committee would rtse,is surely the motion thnt th~ Premier meant to make. Mr. Chainnan, n motion that th~ Committee rise; is it debatable? It is not debatable. Well then since this - AN HONOURAIILE ME~RER: Tnaudiblt•. ~- R_O,!l.!::_~TS: I am sorr y . T am going to ask of the Chairman

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 589 NM - 1 one of th• rights that a member has. If I may be permitted, if the Chairman will take a vote on it pleaNe,in the commtteft,because we do not think the comlllittee should rise. It is just a form of closure that is all. On motion that the C0111111ittee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. On motion report received and adopted. On motion committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Finance, A Bill, "An Act Respecting Conflict Of Interest In Matters Of Public Concern," read n first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Labrador Affairs, A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972," read a first time, ordered read a second time on to1110rrow.

Second Reading of a BilJ..,"An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Indenture Made Between The Government, Newfoundland Forest Products Limited, Bowaters Canadian Corporation Limited, Bowatera Newfoundland Limited And Lundrigans Limited And An Agreement Between Government And Bowaters Newfotmdland Limited And To Make Provision Respecting Matters Connected Therewith." MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I have great pleasure in moving second reading of this bill,from two points of view. Number one ;-l,ecause the forest industry aspect of the matter and secondly,as the M.H.A. for the district concerned.

This bill is to confirm the agreement worked out between r,overnment and Newfoundland Foreat Products Limited or the principals makin~ up Newfoundland Forest Products Limited in relation to the operation of their mill at Hawkes Bay and as well some agreement on their mill at Stephenville. The agreement was signed by government or between the government 1896

March 13, 1973 Tape No. 589 NM - 2 and the company.on January 16, 1973 and I might say,immediately after that the company started their operations at Hawkea Bay, started getting things on the way. It took a great deal of time, Mr. Speaker, to work out this agreement we have here and there are a number of reasons for it. We had hoped many times, and I am sure the company had hoped many times as well, that an agreement could be reached and we would be able to get the thing cleared up and get the operation going,but it was a very difficult set of negotiations.

I was in on all the meetings where we negotiated the agreement. They were very difficult because the company had certain things in mind an~ quite obviously as a company they wanted to get the best deal possible from their own point of view, you cannot really fault them for that. From a government point of view, we wanted to ensure two or three things. Number one - we wanted to get the jobs made available to the people there,by having the operation start.

At the same time we had to do everything possible to protect the public funds that were going in there to be loaned to the company and make sure these public funds were used in such a way that there would be continuation of the operation for some considerable time. In other words, we did not want to make a lo~n to a company and find out that they go ahead and start up, two or three months !Ater the whole thing io closed up and they are out ngain.

One of the most contentious issues throughout the whole set of neP,otintions wno the insistence by government that we have aome assurnnce that there would be a continuing operation at Hawkes nay. I believe by the agreemenf that we have here now, as a matter of fact, I feel sure by the agreement that we have here now that we have ensured that that operation will continue for some time, or if that operation does not continue as such, then 18D7

March 13, 1973 Tap• No. 589 certainly an operAtlon will continue in the Hawke Bay Ar••• their wood will be utilized and people will continue working whether it is tor a awmill or whether it 1• for ome other purpose. RM - 3 There is a separate agreement to the one reached with Newfoundland Forest Products Limited. You can find it -

schedule "d". lt is an agreement that was worked out between government and Bowaters, quite apart from the main agreement, whereby Bowaters agree to do certain things in the event of the closedown of the milliand that in itself ensures a continuity of work in the area and the jobs will be ensured. If we were in the position that we had some control over the timber limits. needless to say there would not be any point in our enterinv into an agreement with Bowaters, Newfoundland Forest Products or any other company but in that particular area.

They do have complete control of the timber, all the merchantable timber in the area,with the exception of a couple of small pieces of crown land where there may be fifteen to twenty thousands chords, but certainly nothing significant to run a mill on. However, we have to face that fact - you are dealing with a company who controls the raw material. They are really holding the high card because it is very difficult to run an operation unless you have the access to the raw material. But as J say, there were numerous meetings, much correspondence, exchanges by telephone, 1898

March 13, 1973 Tape 590 letters and so on and so forth.We finally reached an agreement which we think is a good one. I am going to let the Minister of .'Finance outline the actual detailed financial sections of the agreement, the mortgage and the repayment clauses and so on and so forth • . In regards to the Stephenville mill,they have agreed that they will have that mill in operation within eighteen months and I JM - 1 think that is in the agreement within eighteen month11 at Stephenville or some other location in the province or they will sell the mill to other interests who may want to operate it.

Eighteen months may seem like a long time but the company says that they would have to assess the possible operation at Stephenville after Hawkes Bay started up and it was going for a while and they see what the markets are like. A big part of it would be watching the new equipment they are going to install in Hawkes Bay and see how well it works,then they would make a decision on the Stephenville mill.

We are hoping that they will make a decision to operate it or relocate it to some other place where it can be operated,long before that,but however we will wait that loni 1f the company figure it will take that long. The woods operation at Hawkes Bay,aa I said,stnrted very soon after thr agreement was signed. It started on the 29th of January and the agreement was signed on the 16th of January and the saw mill started up a couple of weeks later, started production. Right now the mill is still on a sin~le-shift basis and they will be for some time,into the early summer.

Possibly they may r,et into the double shift basis after their new equipment is installed - Right now they are operatinp, with the same equipment that they had there since the mill wns built. They arc installing new equipment and that was part of the aRreement signed with Newfoun<llond ForeAt Products, that they would install new e'luipment as per the Mason R(•port, the people who did the feasibility study, after the mill closed down, in the fall of 18 8 D

March 13, 1973 Tape 590 1971 or in the spring of 1971. Right now they have fifty-two men employed in the mill and they have about thirty-five to forty men in the woods operation. They have upped their production from zero start to the vicinity of 45,000 board feet per day. So it would appear from that that the operation is going very well. Of course the mill has a much greater capacity than that but I do not feel that they will be going up to anything close to the 70,000 per day capacity until they install their new equipment.

I understand,in relation to the equipment, that some of it is already shipped from the factory. When the equipment is installed and they get a much smoother operation there,they will be on a two JM - 2 shift basis and the approximate employment figure, and this is approximate because no-one can tell exactly how many, but the approximate employment figure would be a hundred men per shift, which would be about 200 men and,as I say,they are hopeful of going on a double shift in early summer. They will have some problems with shipping, with getting the finished product out of there.

There is a very short shipping aeason in Hawkes Bay, one of the places that freeze up very quickly, very early in the winter and is frozen up very late in the spring. We