VOL. 3 NO. 83 P3LLi•1JR UNED ITED TRANSCRIPT FIO[2SE OF ASSE21iLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1981

November 19, 1991 The Housemrt cc Er. sneaker in mba Chair. MR. S?ThYEP. (Sino's): Order, oleoce) STATEMENTS BY OIINISTEAS: :.. SPEROER: The hon. Minister of Develoomont. ER. )O1MDSOR: Mr. Sosaker, I am happy to announce today that government has reached agreement with Port Atlantis Limited to proceed to establish a small scale supply base at Bay Roberts. SOME HON.

MEOBERS: Hear, heart MR. wI::DsOR: In accordance with the policies outlined in our statement of July 20th., 1021 , concernina onshore petroleum related sites,the Department of Development has successfully concluded negotiations with the developer, Port Atlantis Limited, to begin land acquisition to suorort an interim base operation. I am hopeful that Port Atlantis Limited will become operations during the next year to provide the Bay Roberts area with a richy deserved economic boost.

I also want to commend the town of Bay Roberts for the strong supportive role it has p1aed in bringing onshore petroleum related development closer to reality in the Conception Bay North area. The department will contimue to work co-operatively with Port Atlantis limited in its efforts to expand uoon an interim base operation and in accordance with government policy statements inundated in the past. In that regard. Mr. Speaker, I have arranged with my colleague, the member for Port de Grave (Mr. N. Collins) to meet with council next Thursday evening in BaY Roberts. SOME HON. MEMEERS: Hear, heer' MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker. P7P

November 13, 1931 Tape No. 3553 MM 2 Buchar.s. ______ Pr. Stacker, 1 toaSt taut the minister would have hat, the decency to let me have a copy of , rot he did not. St accept any development, Pr. Sneaker. St is very interesting to know that the minister did not define - he emphasized small de'zelopment. It is very interestinc that he did not define small development. I understand - we understand, Pr. Speaker, that one ci the princirals in that particular cnmpany, Port Atlantis, happens to be an ex-premier of the Pravir.ce, and Mr.

Speaker, if I recall nowthere was a controversy not loncr coo where shia government was forced to force that ex-premier to give up some land in Labrador, maybe Mr. Speaker it was easier to give up the land when we know that negotiations like this are going on. And I will call on the minister row, Mr. Sneaker, to indicate - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! NP.. MORGAN: the Province. SOME HON. NEZ-lEERS: iCif dUOUL aIUCI± LLLflUUO Order, please! Yes, small minded, Mr. Speaker. (Inaudible) former Premier of Oh, oh! You would not do that wiNk Mr. Srnallwood, would you? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ELIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, it is - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, 5IaaE:e! SOME RON. SIPEEPS: Oh, oh! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Near, hoar! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! The hon. member's time has expired. Further statements? The hon. Minister of Finance.

Novomoer 19, 2aeo No. 3533 SC1L H3.. 11LIRS: Mrar, hear Pk. COLLILS: :r. Steaker, some little vhile ccc in answer to reaction rosed be the Non. L e a d e r of the Ocosition,I indicated that it had been government's intention around this time to present a fir.ancial statercent in regard to the Province' a financial nosition and this is what I would li:e to do toda'. Mr.

Speaker, it will cone as no surprise to hon. members of this House when I say that the fiscal year to date has been less satisfactory for our Province, from a financial perspective, than had been anticipated when I delivered the 1981 Budget Speech last April 14th. Although the Newfoundland economy has performed well in certain sectors, unfortunately other areas of considerable importance to our Province have not turned in performances up to expectations. In this present statement to the House I intend to outline, in

summary form, the performance of various key sectors of our economy for the year so far, point out the resultant impact on government's current financial position, and indicate the type of remedial action taken in response. Let me first state, however, that, if there is one single underlying reason which can be identified as the cause for the current economic slow-down in our Province1 7 L

Nov. 19, 1981 iaoe no. 3554 - I DR. d, COLLINS: it surely must be the interest raor a that have orevailed for most of the year. The Ice: few weeks have seen some decline in the interest rntes,hst for most of 1981 they remained at levels which unmuestionab1' placa fanner or h'jns accivitv throuchout North America and the Western world. These high rates have had a constraininc influence cf the economy of this Province, so dependent on markets and the climate of business elsewhere, particularly in the United States. Mr.

Speaker, government is also very well aware of the impact that high interest rates are having on the individual Newfoundlanders who are finding it increasingly difficult to meet ever-rising mortqacre pay- ments, food prices and other necessities of life. It must be recognized, of course, that monetary policy and the management of the national economy, including its performance on the international scene ,remains so.elr within the rerview of the government in Ottawa.

It is the task of provincial governments to make every effort to encourage the Government of Canada to formulate and implement such economic policies and programmes that will ease the strain of high interact rates and pressure on our dollar and bring corresponding economic relief for our people. Mr. Speaker, in reoard to economic performance in Newfoundland itself,the ar_7,7th in the gross domestic product is now expected to be closer to 2 per cent in 1981 as opposed to 3 per cent as previously forecast, vith the major reason being the high interest rates, as I have already mentioned.

Unfortunately ,the lower projected crowth in our CDP will impact inadversely on employment. For the first half of 1981 the economy recorded an averace of just over 9,000 more jobs than for the same period last year, an increase of 5.4 per cent. During the same time

ov. 19, 1931 Tame No. 2554 - 2 W. J. CPLLIN: the labour force grew by an averara of 8,303 workers. Evmlcvm.ent gains were goat evident in the primarY, manufacturing and public administration sectors. However, with cersistentiv hirh interest rate,be economy was unable to sustain these employment growth rates. Consequently, the level of job creation So Tuly a-nd August was down noticeably and in September emoloyreent dropred to 10,000 below the same month in 1980.

As a result of this perfarmance,esoecially in Seotember,the actual unemoloyment rate for the third cuarter averaced 13.6 oer cent uu.fron 11.5 per cent during the third quarter 1985. "r. Sneaker, particularly hard hit by the down-turn in employment has been the fish procesc4r- component of the manuafacturing industry. Lay-of fs of permanent plant workers have numbered nearly 4,000 since early August but with the Winter offshore fishery about to get underwaL' it is anticipated that many of these Newfoundlanders flo -

Toembar 19, 1981 Taoe To. 3555 ah-1 wi 11 soon reco:o to work. icrai1 fish landings for the wear are exoectad to be abcuo tha sane as in 1980, ocoroxiiatelv 490,000 metric tons. Howwer ,the value of aodinos as well as the value of the processed fish o:cduc-ts,will be down due to generally poor market conditions prevailir.ci in the United States. In the inshore fishery, major problems included not only poor markets and high carrying costs but also a lack of fish.

Jo1umes of production at 'any plants based on the inshoa fishery have been ronnino at levels 50 Per cent to 60 per cent of last year's production and shutdowns of many such operations have occured. Government's concern over the relativelv000r year for the fishing industrv,and the obvious negative economic inpact on our fishermen has caused it to relax repayment remuirements on Fisheries Loan Board loans to fishermen who have been hardest hit. In another move. oovernment assisted in the re-opening of the financially troubled Ramea fish plant by orovidinc a deficiency guarantee for benefit to local creditors.

At this tirne,government is also pursuinc a number of optiois with respect to the future of the Lake Grouo operations and hooefully more can he said on this matter in the nottoo distant future. Additionally, hon. members can he assured that government is continually nonitorincr the fishery situation to ensure that all Leasonable avenues of support within our jurisdiction are heino exolcred duninc this unstable period. Speaker, on a briohter note, our Foesr irdustr is havinq a very good year despite international economic conditions. Production at the Corner Brook and Grand Falls mills have been at ql7q JAV

November 19,1981 Tape No. 3555 ah-2 PP. COLLINS: tons will be recorded should be about S350 in 1980. near capacity levels so far this thot moximum outmut of 610,000 metric in 1991. The total value of orcducticn il1ion in 1991 comoared to 9270 pillion Production at the new Abitibi- Price pill in Stephenville commenced a'out mid-year and it is expected that by year eod 60,000 tons of newsprint will be manufactured. Mr. Speaker, the mining industrN performance throughout North America has over the past twelve to eighteen months, has been described by many analysts as disappointinQ.

Prices and markets for most metals,with the recent exceotions of zinc and leadhave been weak. Markets for aebestos have also been weak. Against this backoround the miniorT industry in Newfoundland has fared reasonably well relative to most other orovinces. Q T p

:ovember i, 1531 Tapa 1536 CC - I DR. cc:T:': However, as all han. mambers kncv, there have been difficulties with te metals and asbestos mines near Baie Verte. The Consolidated Rambler base metals mine is anpected to continua its operations only on a month- t month basis. AdVOCat'5 asbestos mine has sufficient ore reserves to last approximately fourteen years at present rates of production, but because cf soft markets, excessive inventories and a more general problem of high waste removal costs, the manager, Canadian Johns-Manville have decided to close the mine at the end of the year.

Nevertheless, the provincial government is attempting to do whatever it can to prevent the permanent closure of this mine. A number of companies have been contacted and have expressed an interest in the possibility of taking over the operation. The Buchans base metals operation will continue at least to 1984. This welcomed announcement came in August after it was determined that a new deposit extending from the Maclean mine could be profitably produced. Iron ore output is expected to be about the same as in 1930.

However, value figures should be up 4rt real terms,as an increased quantity of higher grade ora from the bC operations at Labrador City more than offsets a volume decline in production at Schefferville. Wabush Mines has just announced a three week shutdown but otherwise has had a reasonably good year. Overall the value of mineral production is expected to increase by roughly one per cent in real terms with iron ore accounting for most of that growth. Mr. Speaker, the volume of construction activity in Newfoundland during 1981 is down q c n

1969 Tape 9556 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: from previous 'ears. Residential construction, which is particularly labour Intensive, has declined compared to last veer, primarily because of high interest rates. Hoisino starts in the Province are down by 21.7 per cent for the first nine months of 1981. However, an increase in starts on multiple units over the next three months is expected, and this will offset to a degree the low level of activity experienced during the Summer months.

Investment in commercial construction activities has also been diminishing since early Summer, not only in this Province but throughout the country as a whole. Until financing costs decline, a full recovery in the construction industry is not anticipated. There will, however, be some stimulus provided to the industry through the ongoing construction of various hydro sites. Mr. Speaker, with regard to oil and gas, this sector has again been beneficial to our economy this year. Some $375 million is expected to be spent during 1981 on offshore exploration.

Six rigs have been active, three off the East doast of Island and three off the Labrador coast.

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3557 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: One highlight of the veer was the discovery, for the first time, of oil off Labrador, and though only in small quantity, it is nevertheless considered of si9nifjcant importance for later prospects. Another hiahlight was a positive result from drilling at the Hebron structure, in the Grand Banks area. The number of people directly employed by the oil and gas industry peaked at one 1,759 in August 1981, up from 1,536 in 1930,and roughly 65 per cent were Newfoundlanders. Mr.

Sreaker, turning now to the current financaal position of government, needless to say government itslef has not escaped the effect of high interest rates and the other adverse economic conditions which exist today. At budget time last April, I announced to the House that we were pojectina for 1981-82 a surplus on current account of approximately $10.4 million. It goes without saying that budget estimatas for any financial year are based on numerous assumptions. As the financial year progesses, variations occur which may give rise to results differing from those forecaso.

In times of volatile economic climate, such as is prevalent in the world today, wide swings from financial projections are not unlikely. For obvious reasons, therefore, a preliminary review and analysis of government's revenues and expenditures was undertaken in October in order to determine the impact of prevailing economic conditions on our financial posttion at the half-year mark and to permit the development of a revised financial forecast for the balance of the fiscal year. Mr.

Speaker, the results which came forth from that preliminary review orocess were particularly troublesome to us, in that they indicated a decline of some qi;9

November 19, 11 Tape No. 3557 SD - 2 D. COLLINS: S50 million in our current account positicn. To nut that number in context, it is a variance of 3.3 per cent on our $1.5 billion current account budget. In view of these findings, government subsequently requested all denartoents to undertake an indepth, full scale review of their individual budgets, to include a measurement of exoenditures and commitments to that date, their projected requirements for the balance of the fiscal year, and a re-assessment of the assumptions underlying those requirements.

The purpose was to refine the basis for projectioos through the use of data as current as possible, and also to identify those areas where measures could be undertaken to oifset or reverse unfavourable trends. Government has now completed a thoroujh review of the revised expenditure and revenue forecasts for the balance of the year and as well has initiated belt tightening measures to restrain administrative expenditures to the extent considered practical at this time.

As a result of this analysis and belt tightening process, and the recent receipt of new revenue projections, we are now forecasting a deficit on current account in tOe 9

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3558 EL - 1 DR. COLLINS: order of $6 million for the fiscal year, 1921-82. SOME HON. MENEE?.S: Hear, hear DR. COLLINS: Mr.Speaker, this is a substantial inprovement on a situation we faced after a preliminary view in early October, but it still represents an unfavour- able variance of over $16 million from our April forecast. One of the major factors impacting upon our budgetary position is the slower than anticipated growth in retail sales tax revenue Retail Sales Taxes for 1981-82 were budgeted in April at $286 million and have now been revised downwards to $271 million.

The $15 million decrease reflects a fall off in consumer purchases of tax- able items of nearly $140 million. Without doubt Newfound- landers have had to divert that amount of take home income to cover the rising cost of non-taxable necessities as well as additional interest charges on mortgage renewals. This forced shift of purchasing power helps to explain the decline in housing starts and the decrease in new car purchases, two of the major aspects contributing to the Retail Sales Tax revenue shortfall.

Another major impact on our budgetary position has been public sector wage settlements, now pro- jected to cost in excess of $8 million more than the April forecasts. Also, the unexpected escalation in interest rates to unprecedented levels is now forecasted to cost the Province a further $5 million beyond the amount origir.allv budgeted for servicing the provincial debt. Mr. Speaker, it would be naive to think that the G-oiernment of Newfoundland could isolate itself totally from the direct immacts of spirailig interest

November 9., 1981 Tape No. 3558 el -. 2 DR. COLLS: rates, escalatinc inflation and declining economic activity in key sectors of the economy. The Province is by no means unique in this respect. Other Governments are feeling similar impacts, resulting in difficult current account problems to vary- ing degrees, in many instances more severe than our own. We will continue to monitor the position in our Province very closely and will take whatever measures are needed to bring expenditures in line with revenues without dis- rupting important services to the public.

To have done as well as we have and to have contained the deficit on current account to a minimum level underlines the commitment of this government to responsible fiscal mana- gement in these difficult times. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. ROBERTS: M. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, before I begin, I wonder if Your Honour could indicate how long I have aroxiately? MR. SPEAKER: Approximately eight minutes,the hon. member-has. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, there are many things deficient in our financial procedures in this legislature and I think what we are going through today reveals in a glaring light a deficiency in the procedure and also I would suggest a very deliberate move on the part of the government to try and muzzle this House. What we have qc

S November 19,1981 Tape No. 3558 EL - 3 MR. ROBERTS: here, Sir, Statement,although it is in the guise of a :iinisteriai Statement; what we have is a mini budget. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. ROBERTS: And I am not allowed to debate it and so i will not. I have eight minutes to reply to a ten page statement which the minister had the courage and the courtesy to give to my friend,the Leader of the Opposition, when the House opened. He did not even have the courtesy to give us an hour's notice on it. The minister has had many days to try to prepare this. He has had the advice of his officials and I am not

No'j. 19, 1981 Tape No. 3559 DW - 1 HR. E. ROBERTS: going to try to comment in detail uoon it at this stage. I note with great regret the government are doing every- thing they can, they are using every rule of the House, to prevent a debate on our financial affairs. And having heard the minister's statement and read it through very quickly while he was reading it to the House,I can under- stand why. The minister's statement, Sir, is like a certain type of clothing that is displayed in a certain type of magazine. It appears to be revealing but it is far more revealing for what it conceals than for what it shows.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. E. ROBERTS: This statement, Sir, does not tell us a great deal about the affairs of this Province. It. tells us a great deal about the way in which the mini- ster has run the financial affairs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. E. ROBERTS: Now first of all, Sir, let us dispose once and for all of the minister's attempts to hide behind the high interest rates. The minister is not responsible for high interest rates. I am not even sure the Government of Canada are. I am not sure anybody can control them.

But I will sy to the minister now that he knew si.x months past,just as he knew today,that interest rates were going to be high, stay high and go higher. And in preparing his budget estimates he ought * to have taken that into account. He did not, deliberately, megligently and purposely did notand we are seeing the price today. The gist of this statement is that the budget estimates brought in by the Minister of Fiaance (Dr. Collins) in his speech, Mr. SDeaker, were fraudulent. q7

Nov. 19, 1981 Taoe No. 3559 DW - 2 NP.E.POBETS: They were not truthful ectimates. They were not nrudent and proner estimates. Secondly, Mr. Sneaker, let us I take care of the revenue forecast. I will tell the minister, and defy him to deny the truth of what I say, that in each case he took the highest conceivable estimates for revenue forecasts in preparing his budget speech. Again, Sir, not a prudent course.

Thirdly, the minister in delivering this statement neglected,and I venture to say deliberately neglected - I do not think he did it by accident, I do not think he is that dumb; dumb he may be but not that durnt- he deliberately neglected to tell us what had been cut from the financial expenditures of the Province. In fact, he does not even tell us how much1 if any,has been saved by this belt tightening exercise. I suggest to the House it is at least $30 million. The minister tells us that our $10 million fore- cast has become a $6 million deficit on account, $16 million, $16.5 million.

He also tells us that expenditures on two items alone, perhaps two very large items,have risen by $13 million, $8 million on wages and $5 million on ser- vicing the debt, each of them easily anticipatable, easily predictable, easily forecastable,i may add, but neither of them done by the minister in oreoarincr his budget. So we are $16 million short, we know we are $13 million over, therefore we have taken $29 million - the $29 million less, I would suggest, being spent on other items of excenditures throughout the government and the public service. The very least q I k c

November 19, 1981 Tape 3560 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: thle minister and his colleagues owe i candour. I do not expect decency from them in financial affairs, they have shown us that. For all their cant and all their talk and all their prating,they have not taken the people of this Province into their confidence, they have not spoken truthfully and completely and candidly and fully. But the very least the minister owes us and owes this House and the people of this Province, Sir, is an explanation of where that $30 million is saved; and the second thing he owes us, Mr.

Speaker - I see Your Honour looking at the clocks I suspect my eight minutes is rinding away and I have a .eat deal more to say - the very least he owes this House is the opportunity for a debate on the financial affairs of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Sir, I could comment in detail upon the minister's overview. For example, to show the dishonesty that pervades this statement, he speaks of fewer jobs. What he does not underline is the fact our work force last month in this Province was 12,000 less than it was a year past.

Unemployment is up as a percentage of the labour force but the labour force is down. Our Province grew, the population of our Province grew ,yet the nnber of men and women in the labour force dropped by 12,000. The effective unemploy- ment rate in this Province increased drastically last month. Furthermore, the minister - and let me underline this-at no point in his budget, no point in this statement, explains why he took a 3 per cent growth in gross domestic product instead of the 2 per cent. Any prudent forecaster would have told the minister, p AbV

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3560 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: and I venture to say, Sir, if we could but see the advice that was given to the minister by his officials and his advisors, they did in fact advise him that the 3 per cent figure for growth in gross domestic product was much too high and instead he ought to think of the 2 per cent figure which is 50 per cent less, not 1 per cent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: This is not a matter of one rabbit and one horse making a 50-50 stew. The minister was 50 per cent out in his estimates of the growth of the provincial economy this year.

And I suggest again, Sir, he did that deliberately and malevolently and with intent to present a less than candid picture of the financial affairs of this Province to this House and to the people of this Province. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEKER(Simms) : A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman in using ad- jectives of that nature - MR. FLIGHT: He is telling the truth. MR. MARSHALL: - the hon. gentleman is in effect saying that the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) was attempting to deceive the House and the people of the Prcvince SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - which is,contrary, Mr. Speaker, to the rules of the House and contrary to oarliamentary procedure. MR. ROBERTS: To the point of order, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAEER: To the point of order, the hon. the membr for the Strait of Belle Isle. Qn

November 19, 1981 Tape 3560 EC - 3 MR. P.03ERTS: Mr. Sneaker, I am not using adjectives to attempt to say somethina, I am using adjectives to say samething.And I am not saying the minister is attempting to deceive the House, I am saying his statements were not truthful and that, Sir, I suggest is in order. And as for my friend from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) I leave with him the legal maxim 'res ipsa loquitur' which, for his benefit means 'The thing speaks for itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR.

SPEAKER (Simins) : With respect to the point of order, the easiest way, I think, to dispose of it would be to ask the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle to indicate clearly that he is not imputing any motives and that will resolve the question that has been raised. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I did so indicate and I certainly do so again. I do not impute the motives of the hon. member. I impute his confidence and his competence but I do not impute his motives.

But I do say, Sir, the budget was not the work of a prudent minister, nor was it the work of a minister who relied upon the advice of his officials. I have dealt with this question of the labour force very briefly. Aqain, Sir, the fed bashing. The only answer, the only remedy, the only solution that S qqi

November 20, 1981 Tape No. 3561 NM - 1 the Premier's Government; the Premier's Administration of the Crown's Government - can find in this Province is fed bashing, and once again the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) fell into it No attempt to come to grips! Nobody will pretend that the government of the Province has full control over the economy - that is not the way it works in a federal system, and it is not the way it should work - but the Province has some input. The minister did not point out that he, more than any other financial person in this Province, has a vested interested in inflation.

He speaks of the retail sales tax being down, and so it is. What he does not speak of, Mr. Speaker, is that the government has a vested interest in retail sales tax, has a vested interest in gasoline tax. If they really want to come to grips with it, Sir, his prating about people with high mortgage payments and so on, let him take the retail sales tax off building materials. SOME HON. MEMEERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, pleaSe! MR. ROBERTS: Let him index the retail sales tax. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please'. The hon. member's time has expired. MR. ROBERTS: Ah so quickly, Sir. Well let mc - SOME HON.

MEMEERS: By leave. By leave. MR. ROBERTS: I will not get leave from that crowd. Let me end by saying again that I regret that the minister has not shown the intestinal fortitude needed to require in this House - MR. MORGAN: His time is uo, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please'. MR. CALLAN: Let the Speaker do his own job, Minister of Fisheries.

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3561 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simrs) Order, please The hon. member's time 1.as now expired. SOME EON. MEMEERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: Further statements? The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, with the agreement of the other side I would hope that we could turn to a more pleasant task for a few moments before we get into the Orders of the Day. On this,the 19th. day of Novernber,1981, Steve Neary. the M.H.A. for LaPoile district, will begin his twentieth year as a nernber of the House of Assembly for Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear'. MR.

STIRLING: Mr. Neary was first elected to the House of Assembly - MR. MORGAN: The next Leader of the Opposition. MR. STAGC: Is this an obituary? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR SPEAKER: Order, pleaSe'. MR. STIRLING: - on November the 19th., 1962 and has been a member - MR. STAGG: It sounds like an obituary to me. MR. SPEAKER: Order MR. STIRLING: - of the provincial legislature ever since. MR. PATTERSON: You will never see that long. MR. STIRLING: Born and raised on Bell Island in Conception Bay, Mr.

Neary spent twenty-one years working for DOSCO, the company that mined the iron ore on the Island for more than seventy years. During his career in public life, Mr. Neary acquired a great deal of experience in dealing with people's problems. He served on the Nabana Town Council for more than twelve years, was president of his own local union for fourteen

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3561 N1 - 3 MR. STI2LING: consecutive terms. Not to be restricted to local politics, Steve was elected twice as President of the Newfoundland Federation of Mzyors and Municipalities and was given a vote of confidence on two other occasions when he was elected Secretary of the Newfoundland Federation of Labour. Steve is proud of the fact that he is a founding member of the Wabanna Boys Club and has the title of honourary president in that organization. He is also honoured to be the honourary fire chief for the Wabana volunteer fire brigade, the oldest organization on Bell Island.

a lovember 19, 1981 Tape No. 3562 SD - 1 MR. STIRLIHG: Other stars in Steve's cro.cn include helping to set up a public library on Bell Island, Secretary to the Bell Island Hospita. Committee, and local Chairman of the Bell Island Branch of the Newfoundland TB Association for over ten years. There is no end to the various and sundry capacities in which Mr. Neary has served his Province since he became a member of the House of Assembly back in 1962. He has served as a minister in the Srnallwood administration, House Leader in the official Loyal Opposition, Opposition Party Whip - MR.

STAGG: What as he doing on the back benches? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simnis): MR. STIRLING: Accounts Committee - MR. STAGG: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: on Elections and Privileges Newfoundlanders - Order, please - and is now a member of the Public Move him to the front benches: Oh, oh. Order, please: - and Vice Chairman of the Committee Steve is well-known to most MR. MORGAN: Where is the band? SOME i-ION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please MR. STIRLING: - as an outspoken, sometimes out- right rebellious member of the government.

He has always shown an uncanny ability to zero in precisely on issues and problems facing the ordinary man and woman of Newfoundland. Steve takas second place to no man in his effectiveness in the House of Assembly. MR. MORGAN: No recognition SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3562 SD - 2 MR. SPEARER Sjrms) : Order, p1ease MR. STIRLING: He is probably more familiar with the rules of procedure than any other MHA to grace this hallowed institution. His knowledge and experience in the Chamber makes him an extremely effective member of the Opposition and a member of the people's House. As an MHA, Steve has always been very popular with his constituents and has even been invited to run in districts other than his own on occasion, thus making him a politically unique individual. Steve's philosophy is simple, "I deal with people.

They deal with me as a person and we are all human beings struggling to survive and make the best out of our brief stay on this planet." And Steve has said, 'If I have done anything at all to ease the burden of even one human being, then I am satisfied, it has all been worth it'. As Leader of the Opposition in the people's House, I hereby salute NRA Steve Neary on behalf of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. I applaud his life as a servant of the people.

And may he experience many more years of service and fulfilment in his capacity as a member of the House of Assembly and may he return to his rightful place as a member of the government of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) I want to assure the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) that if there is a devious plot on the other side of the House to get rid of Steve Neary, they are not going to succeed by making that statement today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I would be very remiss, Mr. Speaker, if I did not, on behalf of members on this side of the House, recognize the important date that we are celebrating here and the man who we are saluting. Obviously all Newfoundlanders,

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3362 SD - 3 ?DEIER PNFD: from Nain to Lamaline and from East to West, know and are fni1iar with the name - I do not think there is any question about that - and the role that he has played in various positions over the years before he became involved in politics and since be got involved in politics. I guess Steve Neary is, more or less, synonymous with the ordinary people, as he keeps referring to them, and, I guess, that would be the kind of phrase or description

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3563 EL - 1 pp2::L P:c:FORD: li:e to o:a referred to him when talking about his involvement with ew- foundland and Newfoundlanders over the years. Now, it is too bad, as some hon. members on this side of this hon.House have already said,with all the accolades the Leader of the Opposition is paying to this great man from Lapoile (Mr. Neary) , it is too bad that he is not in the front benches on the other side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMtER_PECKFORD: And I make a humble request on behalf of all the people on this side of the House and on behalf of all the ordinary people of Newfoundland, put Steve in the front bench. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: And that while, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition mentioned that the member for LaPoile has been asked to serve and to run in many districts, I an not so sure that his move from Bell Island to LaPoile was by invitation. But nevertheless he is a man who has served this Province and this House of Assembly for a long number of years.

He has been one of the more colourful, if not the most colourful figure in public life in this Prov- ince over that period of time, especially in the last ten years, and I am sure I speak for everybody on this side and for the ordinary people of Newfoundland to wish the member for LaPoile well in the future and to just harken for the day when he again will be on the front bench and in the limelight of his party in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

a Noveither 19, 1981 Tape No. 3563 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKLR (Simms) : I too would be remiss perhaps if I did not add a few personal comments myself. I want to wish the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) a very happy anniversary and may he enjoy many more years of long life whn the time comes,especially for his retirement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER: I want to say also that I con- sider Mr. Nesry to have been, in my term of office as Speaker, at least, to have been a model member - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR.

SPEAKER: - of the House of Assembly and in fact has certainly offered a great deal of advice to me on many occasions - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER: - some of which I even considered. But I think in fact that with all his background and every- thing else he would make an excellent Speaker himself, es- pecially because of impartiality and non-partisanship. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: In any event, on behalf of the House as a whole, collectively..I wish the hon. member for LaPoile a very happ" anniversaty and wish him well in the future.

If he would like to have a rerrark we would allow it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, for the first time in my life, I am speechless. SOME HON. MEMBERS: i-tear, hear:

Noventher 19, 1981 Tape No. 3563 EL - 3 But I do want to thank your Honour for his kind remarks and I want to thank the Pram- jar and the Leader of the Opposition for the very kind things that they said about me and to the Premier, the only thing I can say is I do not see a vacancy in the front benches over there. * q r: n

November 19,1981 Tape No. 3564 ah-1 MR. MEAPY: I do not know if he was extendino an invitation or uot, vr. Soeaker. Ye uill a:e to discuss that. PREMIER PECEFORD: Could we have an adjournment for a few minutes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. NEARY: But , Mr. Speaker, I do want to say in thanking everybody I just want to say that the celebrations, the partv,will take place on the Silver Anniversary. SOME HON.MFMBERS: Hear, hear: ORAL QUESTIONS MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier.

I was very pleased to see on the television news last night the Premier when he was speaking to the university students, and I quote, Mr. Speaker, 'We spend more per capita than any other Province in Canada on education. These are new figures just out. I was delighted to hear the results of those new figures and I wonder if the Premier can tell us what the source of those new figures are? MR. SPFAKFR: The hon. the remier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, it just so happens that I just had passed along to me while the Teer of the Opposition was asking the question,, this new study just released by Statistics Canada which show a percentage of total personal income , the expenditures on education as related to certain sOCiO-economjc indicators; Expenditures on education across the nation: 12.2 per cent Newfoundland ; 11.6 per cent PEI Nova Scotia 10.5 New Erunswick 10.3; Quebec 11.4, Ontaric 8.8; Manitoba 9 per cent, Saskatchewan 9 per cent, Alberta 8.8; q 4

S November 19,1981 Tape No. 3564 ah-2 PRFIMIFR_PECKFOFD: British Columbia 7.7; Canada 9.6, Newfoundland 12.2. SOME HON. MEERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: A sup1ementarv, Mr. Speaker. t MR. SPEAKER (Simrns) : A supolementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. -4 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, there are three sins a government in power can commit that are unforgivable and inexcusable', the abuse of power , the dereliction of duty and the promotion of deception . The Premier and his government in the last couple of days have accomplished a number of these. What he said - MR. MAPSIIPLL: A point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman cannot say indirectly what he cannot say directly and in actual fact, Mr. Speaker, he is saying it directly when he says that the government and the Premier are promoting deception. That is contrary to the rules of the House to allege that a irember of the House is attempting to deceive. It has only one connotation, one connotation only,and that is of dishonesty, and it must be withdrawn and withdrawn without reservation. MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order.

To me it did not appear that an individual member was being attacked in that context. I understood it to be the government in totality and certainly there have been many references in the past where that has been acceptable. Certainly if the hon. Leader of the Opposition wishes to clarify that he was not speaking about a member personallv,then that would pretty well resolve the situation. The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

Nov. 19, 1981 Tape No. 3565 DW - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the actual incident took place yesterday and I quote it exactly. He said - talkinr about the provincial ratings,arid I presume that the Premier was speaking on behalf of the government - he said, 'The Baa (1) rating, the lowest you can have, we spend more per capita than any other province in Canada. NOW, Mr. Speaker, the same source of information, Statistics Canada - MR. SPEAKER (Sims): Order, please The hon. Leader of the Opposition should out a question. There is a fair bit of

preamble to it. MR. L. STIRLING: Well, it is because, Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not quote the same source in the House as he did yesterday. So the question that I have for the Speaker - the Premier. The question, Mr.

Speaker, for the Premier is did the premier by mistake vesteräay quote what he has now quoted,which is a percent of our total personal income;was it a mistake when he said that our per capita spending, the Province's per capita spending was higher than any other Province in Canada when, in fact, Statistics Canada show our per capita expenditure by this Province is the second lowest in all of Canada? Was he just making a mistake when he said per capita and did he really mean as a per cent of personal income,which is what he now just quoted? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD? Mr.

Speaker, you know, I find it incredible that as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) and the party opposite find themselves on the throws of difficult situations - Two or three days ago the Leader of the Opposition rushed into this hon. House trying to accuse this government of misleading the people of Newfoundland because there were poing to be cutbacks on post-secondary education and health care in this Province. After two or '1 '

p -4 Nov. 19, 1981 Taoe No. 3565 DW - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: three days and the dust settled and it was clear to everybody that there were goinc to be cutbacks the Leader of the Opposition dropped it like a lead balloon and then he tries to move on to other areas. What I am sayThg, Mr. Speaker, is that this Province with its credit rating of Baa (1) and its ability to pay is doing more than its share for education in this Province than any other province of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. L.

STIRLING: A supplementary question-and I will table thiS.Is the Premier aware that the authority, Statistics Canada, Advanced Statistics in Education, is he aware that the indication in the 1981 9 I I.

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3566 NM - 1 edition is that Newfoundland will have in fact the lowest per pupil expenditure in addition to having the second I lowest per capita expenditure? Was he aware of that when he gave the students the impression that this government was spending more per capita than any other province in Canada? Was he aware that his information was conflicting with the actual advanced Statistics Canada. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I am aware that this government and this Province is doing more for education, in the context of its ability to do more ,than any other province of Canada and we are proud of that fact. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear PREMIER PECKFORD: And we will not back away from that fact. And surely all hon. members know, and all people know, that one must relate one's performance with one's ability to pay and one's ability to perform. Surely that is what it is.

Like the Leader of the Opposition, surely now if we are going to talk about anything across Canada it has to be related to our ability to perform and you cannot ccmpare Alberta with Newfoundland on performance without taking in the other considerations. This is an objective study that was done, Mr. Speaker, and in relation to our ability to pay we are doing better than any other Province of Canada, bar none. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh PREMIER PECEFORD: We are proud of that. We will never back away from that. Order, please Order PREMIER PECKFORD: And we are really proud of that. 9 i

Noorber 19 1981 Tape No. 3566 NM - 2 MR. STIRLING: A supplemenary, 11r. Speaker. MR. SPEARER (Simins) : A supplementary, the hon. Leoder of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A final supplementary, Another thing that the Premier said at the university yesterday, although he had refused my invitation to debate on television and he blamed his executive assistant for refusing to debate me at the university, will he now confirm to this House of Assembly that he is prepared to debate the expenditures of this Province at the university and will he now confirm that he will be there next Wednesday for the debate? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to negoatiate across this House about that matter. I will negotiate that with the CSU, but I have indicated to the CSU that if the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) would like a debate over at the university with me on any matter relative to the public business of this Province, I would be only too happy to do so. I hasten that with the qualification .that given the great compliments that we have made to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) today, that after the debate there might be a new Leader of the Liberal Party. MR.

WHITE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. :4R.WHITE: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour and Manpower and it has to do with the latest unemployment statistics that came out within the past few days and they have soared much higher than the Minister of Finance indicated in his mini-budget speech today. And I wonder if the Minister of Labour and Manpower would indicate now exactly what the unemployment rate is in this Province at the moment. HP.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker. q i

a November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3567 EL - 1 HP. DIUN: I could give the hon. menher the employment rates for the past ten years, if the hon. member wanted it. MR. TtJLK: It is the highest now, is it not? MR. DINN: If the hon. member wants to know the unemployment rate for the month of October, the unemployment rate for the month of October was 15.2 per cent, unadjusted. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. mem- ber for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister also agree that this is the highest unemployment rate in recent memory in Newfoundland, that there are 12,000 less people working today than one year ago in this Province, and would he tell the House what special progranunes, if any, have been considered by this administration to ease the burden on Newfoundlanders during the next few months? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member may have a short memory, I do not know. ButI do know that last January, for example, our unemployment rate was 15.6.

The January prior to that it was 17.1. The January prior to that it was 19.7. So, Mr. Speaker, in recent times - I do not know what the hon. member understands by recent times.but with respect to September, the hon. member knows that we do have a problem in the fishery,that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) is doing everything within his power. The Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) is working 9 L

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3567 EL - 2 MR. DIN: day in and day out. n.ster of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.Poer) is working on a daily basis. The fact, Mr. Speaker, that we have lost many jobs this year because of high interest rates, which are uncontrollable, as the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) outlined here today, the fact that that is uncontrollable by the ministry here or by the ministers in this government, we are doing everything in our power to curb the rise in the unemployment rate. And, Mr.

Speaker, we would hope with the programmes that we bring forward in the IMw Year that that unemployment rate will go down. MR. WHITE.: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sirnms): A final supplementary, the hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the minister if he would agree now that with the present trends that are in effect in this Province with respect to the economy and with the inactivity of this government in trying to get anything in p±ace to ease the unemployment situation, that Newfoundlanders could be facing perhaps the worst ec- onomic conditions this Winter since Confederation MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. member would like for me to be a purveyor of doom and gloom- MR. WHITE: No I would like you to be the other way round. MR.

DINN: - as he is a purveyor of doom and gloom. But, Mr. Speaker, if one were to take - MR. FLIGHT: Be sensible for a change. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh & q 0

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3567 EL - 3 - the unemployment rate or the employment figures as they have gone on for the past two or three or four years and use that as a trend as to what U would happen in the future, Mr. Speaker, I can tell the hon. member for his benefit that the difference between 1979 and 1978 was that we had an average,1979 over 1978, of 10,030 jobs. 1980 over 1979we had an average of 9,750 jobs. 1981 to this point in tirne q o

November 19, 1981 Tape No.3568 SD - 1 MR. DINN: because of the downturn in the fisheries and the items outlined by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) today, the average for this year is 5,800 jobs more than last year, Mr. Speaker, and if we were to take that on any kind of a statistical basis and project that to the future, the future of Newfoundland indeed looks a lot better than the hon. member attempts to put forth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Terra Nova, followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister can inform the T4ouse just how he justifies the high rate of unemployment of 15.8 per cent this year in October, how he justifies that with the recent government statement that they are ahead of

schedule with respect to creating the 40,500 jobs that the government promised they would create back in the 1979 election campaign? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I will not attempt to do the additions for the great educator opposite, 5ut if the hon. member were to take the statistics that I just gave to the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) and he were ±0 take 10,030, 9,750 and the 5,800 so far this year and average them over three years he will come out with more than 8,000 and at 8,000 a year you have 40,000 jobs. MR. LUSH: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Do I take it then, Mr. Speaker, that the minister is calculating the total increase in the employed as the new jobs' Tn other words, he is not taking into consideration the fact that the federal government may have created some jobs, that he is taking into account the total increase in the labour force and working the figure out to the figures that he has q 1 fl

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3568 SD - 2 MR. LUSH: given here today, Is that what the minister is doing? MR. SPEAKER (Sims): The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, Statistics Canada is oroviding me with the figures that I provided to the hon. member. Now, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the jobs created by the federal government, we thank the federal government for their effort, especially with respect to the extra million dollars that they put into the fisheries,ut I hasten to point out to the hon. member, as I pointed out to the hon. member several times this year, that the 11,000 metric tons of northern cod that went to Nova Scotia amounted to several jobs that Newfoundlanders could have had on a man-rear basis which would have improved our unemployment figures.

The 17,000 metric tons of squid that the federal government, as a policy, gave to the Japanese, took away certain numbers of marl-years from our employment statistics, Whilst we like to thank the federal government for the initiatives that they have taken with respect to assisting our fishermen this year, we would have been more happy if they had left the Northern cod to be caught and processed in Newfoundland plants and the 17,000 metric tons of squid that was given to the Japanese without processing and resale here in the Province, Mr. Speaker.

So whilst on the one hand we would like to thank the federal government for their generosity, we also would like to think that if they, just from a policy point of view, thought of the Province of Newfoundland being allowed to develop their own resources rather than give it away,as is the norm, when one thinks of the great developments that have happened here in the Province, the giveaways, of the past, the federal government is continuing to do this - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please MR. DINN: - on a federal basis just on the basis of policy, Mr. Speaker - 9 it 1 1

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3568 SD - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, p1ease MR. DINN: - assist this government in developing our resources,then our employment picture and our unemployment picture would be a lot more posicive. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. LUSH: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. h 1 9

November 19,1981 Tape No. 3569 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Simms) A final supplementary. The hon. member for Terra fo1a. NR.LUSH: Well, Mr. Soeaker, what the minister has indeed said is that how he arrived at the figure that they were ahead of

schedule was simply by calculating the increase in the number of employees in the last three years and his government taking all the credit. Now I have said to the minister before that he government that takes credit for the sunshine must also take credit for the rain. So I will ask the minister now if he is going to assume the responsibility, the same responsibility, the same creditiri the same way that he akes the credit for the numbers of enrnloyed, would he now assume some responsibilIty for the 36,000 that are unemployed? AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR.

DINN: Mr. Speaker, you know, the hon. member fights a losing battle most of the time when he asks questions in this House of Assembly. The hon. member asked me if we had 148,000 jobs in 1978 andwe had 154,000 jobs in 1979,does that mean we had an improvement? The hon. member had the audacity to stand up in the House last year and say,'If we had 10,000 more jobs this year than last year are they new jobs?' And I said,'Well.thev are only a year old;and I contend again for the hon. member's benefit that , yes, they are new jobs but Mr.

Speaker, I am not happy about the present unemployment situation, and I indicate to hon.rnembers onnnsite that the ministers of Development (Mr. (Windsor), Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) , Fisheries (Mr. raan) Mr. Speaker, and all the development departments are 94 11

a November 19,1981 Tape No. 3569 ah-2 MR. DINN: doing everything in their power, Mr. Speaker, to assist in getting the 'r,ur's developed in this Province and to see to it that every job - and if the hon. member would assist us, would help us, would add something a little positive with respect to even the offshore where this year, Mr. Speaker, I can report to the House of Assembly that we have over 1,200 jobs. And, Mr. Speaker, I am also happy to report that the Premier, in his wisdom,in Ottawagot the federal government to accept their position on nobility - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, heart MR.

DINN: - so that next year, instead of 1,200 jobs we will have 1,500 jobs or more, :r. Speaker, and we will do everything within our power to see to it that Newfoundlanders are employed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. 1'NDREWS: Right on. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: I will yield to ow colleague from Windsor-Buchans (Mr.Flight). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Would the minister indicate to the House whether or not the - MR. MORGAN: The Minister of Mines. MR. FLIGHT: Mines and Energy.

Mr. Speaker, it is pretty hard to know. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please The question is to the Minister of Mines. as I understand. MR. FLIGHT: I know where the real Minister of Mines and Fnergy is. There has been some indication everywhere that one of the problems that Wabush is having1 q t 1

November 19,1981 Tape No. 3569 ah-3 MR. FLIGHT: Scully Mines,is the fact that Stelco is on strike and therefore not taking any of its present production. Would the minister indicate that if the Steco strike were to be over - and there is some indication that Stelco indeed may be settled in the very near future -would that avert a shut-down? Would Stelco going back to work avert a temporary shut-down at Scully Mines? 4 9 41 c

November 19, 1981 Tape 3570 EC - 1 U MR. SPEAKER (Siorns) : The hon. the Minis':er of Mines. MR. WINDSOR: No, Mr. Speaker. To my knowledge the situation in Wabush at the moment is that there are sufficient stockpiles on hand that, even if Stelco did resume operations immediately, that would not avert this present shut-down for three weeks. The continuation might certainly preclude any further shut-downs later in the year as we talked about here yesterday. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. JR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated a couple of days ago ,asked a ouestion on it that we are not getting all the answers to why Stelco takes 25 per cent of production at Wabush. Wabush has stockpiled six months supply. If one of their major customers went back to work and started taking a supply, why would that not avert a shut-down? Is the minister telling us that Wabush - Pickands Mather have decided they are going to have a shut-down regardless of whether or not they can find a market?

Is the minister telling us that Wabush - Pickands Mather have indicated to him that they are going to have a shut-down and there is nothing he can do about it? What can the minister do now in view of the information he just gave the House? What can the minister do or what will he do to avert a shut-down of Scully Mines in Wabush? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I have and I will continue to do all I can to try to avert a shut-down. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR.

WINDSOR: The situation is that you make a judgement at a point in time based on the information that is now available. If the factors change the situation q ! I

November 19, 1981 Tape 3570 EC - 2 iR. WINDSOR: could change. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: At this point in time, the information I have given the hon. gentleman is accurate. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, to the minister. The operators of Scully Nines contraveied the legislation that required them to give sixteen weeks notice of the pending shut-down. Now, it is obvious, based on the minister's answer, that the operators were well aware there was going to be a shut-down.

They have had that stockpile on hand for some time. They used the excuse of the Stelco strike. The Stelco strike has been going on for months. It is obvious now, Mr. Speaker, to the minister that Scully Mines knew that the shut-down was coming. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is the Question Period. The hon. gentleman on a supplementary question is making a speech. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: Could he be asked to get on with his question? PREMIER PECKFORD: Where, oh where is the question gone? MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. member can ask his supplementary now, I am sure he is ready to ask it. 9 ti 1 7

November 19, 1981 Tape 3570 EC - 3 SPE.IKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: In view of the information the minister just gave the House, he confirmed that the operators have been well aware that there would be a shut-down. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, p1ease The hon. member should ask his question now. MR. FLIGHT: I am asking a question, Mr.Speaker. Would the minister indicate now what action he is going to take or wet action the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) is going to .take for allowing the company to contravene the legislation that they require sixteen months notice? He knows, everyone knows that the company knowingly contravened that legislation: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, please Order, please! 9 L 1 q

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3571 EL - 1 MR. FLIGHT: What is the minister going to do about the fact that they contravened the sixteen weeks notice in the legislation? And more important, what is he going to do for the miners in Wabush? MR. SPEAKER (Simxns) : The hon. the Minister of Mines. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed the hon. member's speech. The fact of the matter is the question was answered yesterday when I indicated that the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) already has received information and advice from the Department of Justice which indicates that the company is not in contravention of the labour legislation. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice and Consumer Affairs. And the question arises from representations that I have had made to me from senior citizens. I would like to ask the Minister about the three dollar meal which was brought in in the Budget Speech of 1977.

That budget said that meals under three dollars would not be taxed or taxable. Has the minister any intentions or '.vill his department urge government to increase the amount for tax free, the minimum amount for tax free meals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: If I understand the hon. gentleman's question correctly it is whether the three dollar amount below which there is no tax, whether that amount would be increased - correct?

As the hon. gentleman is aware it would be essentially a budgetary decision and I would not want to prophesy upon budgetary matters to be brought in in a few months. 9 It 1 Cl

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3571 :L - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. H000ER: A supplementctry, Mr. Speaker. MR. S?EAER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: I understand that since 1977 that food prices - this is last years figures, as of 1980 - food prices have increased by 68.8 per cent. That was since 1977 when this was brought in. And that there are many people who are on fixed incomes - MR. FLIGHT: I do not see how the Premier can - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR.

DODDER: - there are many people who are on fixed incomes and who are, particularly the old age pensioners and people of that nature - and ask around; many people do not realize that there is a three dollar tax ex- emption and I think they should. But this has been there since 1977. The cost of living has been raised by 68 per cent - if the Premier thinks that is funny. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. HCDDER: - and if that law - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. HODDER: - that law - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: The hon. member is ready to put his question now, I guess? MR. DODDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. DODDER: In light of the fact that res- taurants very rarely have meals under three dollars anymore, in light of the fact that there are the needy in our society qit 90

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3571 EL - 3 MR. NODDER: who do take adwantage of this tax loophole exception, would the minister urge the government to increase the amount of the tax free meal, because now it * means nothing? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. n 1 21

covember 19, 1931 Tape No. 3572 NM - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly realize that the $3.00 does not buy a very considerable meal and that the food prices have gone up during the past few years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. OTTENHEIMER: I will answer the hon. gentleman's question if and when his colleagues stop interrupting. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, while we are on the topic of shutdowns and unemployment and so on, let me ask a couple of questions of the Minister of Finance. If I may take a minute as a

preamble, the Come By Chance oil refinery was shut down in March of '76, that is more than five and a half years ago. In March of '79 a gentleman who was campaigning to be Premier said that he would have the refinery opened in ninety days, that.was a couple of thousand days ago. Less than two weeks agothough,there were officials from Petrocan, who now own the refinery, in this Province carrying on discussions with the provincial government. Is the Minister of Finance at liberty to tell us whether the news that the Petrocan officials were discussing was good news?

Would he enlighten us on the developments as they pertain to the CEC refinery? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the meeting with Petrocan officials was a planned meeting. We had asked them to come down after they had had an opportunity of seeing what their situation was now,having acquired legal ownership of the refinery, after they had had that episode passed by and they have had a chance to review their position and give us an update on where the stood on things. They did. They discussed with us 9 l 7,

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3572 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: the question of the possibility of putting in place crude supply. They discussed with us their efforts in putting in place a marketing strategy. They dis- cussed with us how this fitted in with their overall strategy. They discussed with us the number of people working out at the refinery. They laid out things as they stood at this time. I am sure the hon. member is aware that putting a refinery into operation is not a very simple measure. It is not a case of just going out and turning on a key or whatever. Many, many situations come into it.

Many, many factors, especially in an environment where the oil picture is so unclear in the world, where there are conservation measures going on and therefore the demand for oil products are changing certainly on a monthly basis, if noton a weekly basis. It is a very complicated issue. Petro-Canada are grappling with it. They have very expert people advising them. They have a marketing operation now in Eastern Canada - we1l in the Montreal area anyway and 91,91

Nov. 19, 1981 Tape No. 3573 DW - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: they are, of course, expanCi:i; their operations throughout Canada in terms of retail outlets and that type of thing. And I assure the hon. member that Petro-Canada certainly have Come-By-Chance in the front of their minds and they are plugging it in to their overall strategy. MR. W. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his answer.

In view of what the minister has said is it fair to anticipate that Petrocan will not wait for five or six years until -we assume that within five or six years we will have oil coming in from Hibernia, not sooner than that - is it fair to assume that Petrocan then will look around for another source of crude? The Prime Minister, when he was in one of the Arabian countries last Spring, said that he was offered another 100,000 barrells of oil a day,which is the amount that the refinery can handle per day.

Is it fair to assume that Petrocan and the government expect that the refinery will be back on the wheels in the near future, not five or six years. It has been over five years shut down. Can we assume, considering that it is in good condition, according to the latest studies, that it will be back on the wheel shortly? MR. SPEAKER: - Order, please The time for Oral Questions has expired. 9 i 7

Nov. 19, 191 Tape No. 3573 DW - 2 NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER (Sirnms): The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, :T give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce another great Tory reform, a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend And Revise The Law Providing For Accessibility To Buildings For Physically Disabled Persons". SOME HON. MEMBFRS: Hear, heart MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.G. OTTENHEIMER: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Enable Price (Nfld.) Pulp And Paper Limited To Become A Federal Corporation".

MR. SPEAKER: Any further notices? The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I give notice of two bills, Mr. Speaker, "An Act Respecting Certain Powers Of Appointment', and "An Act To Amend Certain Acts Re- specting Government Departments To Provide The Power For Ministers To Enter Into Agreement Subject To Specified Terms And Conditions". MR. SPEAKER: Any further notices? 9 7 L

Nov. 19, 1981 Tame No. 3573 DW - 3 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for the Bay of Islands. MR. L. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I had intended to present this petition yesterday but because of the disarray in the Opposition I could not getting round to doing it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. L. WOODROW: However, I think it was providential because in the gallery there is a good friend of mine from Corner Brook. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear AN HON. MEMBER: Where is your other one, Luke? MR. L. WOODROW: There are loads over in the Bay of Islan'ds, many of them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.

SPEAKER: Order, p1ease The hon. member has the right to be heard in silence. MR. L. WOODROW: I would like to read, Mr. Speaker, first of all,the prayer of the petition. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. L. WOODROW: I can hardly hold it. We,the undersigned residents of the Bay of Islands area,hereby petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to recommend to the officials of ANACONDA the construction of a proposed smelter plant in York Harbour.

In view of the fact that this area is under review as a possible location, and in consideration of the high rate of unemployment and the lack of main industry on the Bay of Islands South shore,we strongly urge and implore the provincial government to S i 7 c

Nc:. 19, 1981 Taoe No. 3573 DW - 4 e MR. L. NOODROW: intercede on our behalf with A:TACDNDA. Through this petition we wish to impress upon ocvernmeot our concerns and our contention that the construction of such a plant in York Harbour would serve to ensure a stable economy in this area. Mr. Speaker, we hardly need to say anything else about it. But I would like to make a few remarks. 9 L 77

- November 19, 1981, Tape 3574, Page 1 -- apb MR. WOC:;:: = .rn glad we have the Opposition, almost everybody left in the House. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to add that there are 514 names on this petition. Number two, there is a study under way and the principals of ANACONDA will meet the Minister of Development(Mr. Windsor) early next week in Corner Brook. There is a good port in the Bay of Islands, as well as good shipping; transportation by land and sea. In fact, we have an open port all year round.

I also learned from a good source that bauxite used to manufacture aluminum is on good supply in the hills and mountains in that glorious Bay of Islands - York Harbour area. God love it SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. WOODROW: York Harbour is the place referred to for the proposed smelter. What an impact it will have on all the Bay of Islands area, in fact, on the West coast in general. I am sure that there must be more factors such as the availability of electricity, which, if constructed, would leave the smelter four or five years down the road.

Well, what I am going to do, I am going to refer all members to the petition cDming up - not the petition, but the resolution. I want to call on the member for Harbour Main - Bell Island(Mr. Doyle), he is having a resolution next Wednesday and the resolve of his petition is, "BE IT RESOLVED that the House urge the Government of Canada to uphold this Province's right to fair and equal treatment in the transmission of its energy resources." Now, if we can get everybody to agree on that. It took eleven years to get the Bowater Corporation going in 2

a November 19, 1981, Tape 3574, Page 2 -- apb 4R. GDRO: Corner Brook. Let us hope that with the co-operation of all members of this hon. House, Mr. Speaker, and especially of the Opposition, 4 that they will urge, in fact, the Government of Canada to realize that Newfoundland is a Province and, in fact - MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. HANCOCK: Time is up. Cone on. MR. WOODROW: I do not want to hear it. You did not like to hear what happened in the Bay of Islands last week on Tuesday night. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. WOODROW: I am sorry. Okay. MR. SPEAKER(Simnis): Order, please MR.

WOODROW: In any case, I hope, Mr. Speaker, that everybody will join with me in hoping that this industry will become a reality somewhere in the Province. MR. ROBERTS: Well said. MR. STAGG: In- BoswarloF MR. WOODROW: Well, perhaps, but somewhere in the Province,And that we will work especially to get the energy moving, that is to say the Lower Churchill, in this Province. Merci beaucoup. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. ROBERTS: Does the hon. member remember who put the hum on the Humber? I MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, having been born in the Bay of Islands, I do normally support anything that is brought in for the benefit of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and specifically the people in 9 47 c

November 19, 1981, Tape 3374, Page 3 -- apb MR. STIRLING: that area, in that great district. Becauseunlike the Premier.I do believe that Corner Brook and the area is a viable municipality and is a viable community. The Premier, of courseS, said in this House of Assembly that he does not believe that Corner Brook is a viable municipality and a viable community. Now, Mr.

Speaker, for our side, the people in the Bay of Islands know, and are beginning to find out more every day, that on this side of the Rouse we really are concerned about what is going to happen to the future of this Province, we really are concerned about what is being done about industry. There is nothing happening in the way of encouraging industry. The people in Labrador have been promised industry, the people in Bay of Islands have been promised industry.

That aluminum smelter plant is now doing a feasibility study and they should look all over the Province, including the Bay of Islands, and including Labrador. MR. WOODROW: I want to speak for the Bay of Islands. MR. SITRLING: And you did speak very well for the Bay of Islands, Mr. Speaker, ever since the member has come to the House. MR. THOMS: Once you are in the Cabinet you can speak louder then. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is one of the very few . n

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3575 SD - 1 members representing a part of this Province where the member does speak out and we support any petitions that come in. 4 Mr. Speaker, it is not only the need for the aluminum smelter, there is a need for many other kinds of industry to be brought to the Corner Brook area specifically and to the whole of Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Speaker, what we would urge is that the government get on with the job , whatever is the best place, where this industry can be economically viable. But let us not have it promised for another ten years, Mr.

Speaker, another ten years of promising, Oh, if you can only wait for another few.' So, Mr. Speaker, the promises that we have heard have come to very little and I can understand the frustration of the people in Bay of Islands. And certainly on this side of the House we believe that the people in the whole of the Humber Valley area, the Bay of Islands, Humber East and the Hutnber West deserve much better treatment than the treatment that has been given by this government. And we believe, Mr.

Speaker, that, unlike the Premier and unlike the members on the other side who may not believe that Corner Brook, and the Humber Valley, is a viable community, because the Humber Valley area is experiencing the problems of this government not taking a very firm position and offering some assistance over a difficult time that the airport is now experiencing. And I am afraid that all that you are going to get, all that the member will have, is lip service from the government and it will only be when they get enough nerve, and maybe the member for Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow) can persuade the Premier,to call an election and let the people of Bay of Islands decide who will do the best job for them. SOME HON. MEMEERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, it is a oleasure for 1

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3575 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: me to have an opportunity to respond to this petition so ably presented by my hon. colleague from the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) and to respond to some of the comments made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) such irresponsible comments , saying that government is doing nothing to attract industry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WINDSOR: But he could not have picked a worse example, Mr. Speaker, because nothing more could be done by government or anybody else to attract this particular industry. The study that he referred to, Mr.

Speaker, is being jointly financed by this government and by the company at our request. The hon. Premier and I went to Kentucky - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WINDSR: - met with the company and were successful in persuading them to come here, to bring their expertise, to bring the investment potential that they have with them and to do this study with us on a possibility of an aluminum industry in Newfoundland. We are investigating many sites, Mr. Speaker. Certainly the Bay of Islands is one that is top priority, one of the most likely sites,as well as sites in Labrador, and we are considerino them.

Not only, Mr. Speaker, are we looking at the feasibility here, we also spent literally millions of dollars on ice studies in Lake Melville to look at the viability of bringing a development into there, in addition to which, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please MR. WINDSOR: - we are spending a fortune on the Lower Churchill development trying to get that moving because that is the key and the two go hand in hand, Mr. Speaker, The development of the alumimun industry will trigger the hydro development on the Lower Churchill and vice versa. And 9 ( 9

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3575 SD - 3 MR. WINDSOR: government is working very, very hard towards that. And I refer to the elections as well, I invite the hon. member to run in Bay of Islands, we will indeed see who the people of Bay of Islands feel are doing something for them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! Any further petitions? ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Motion 2. Motion, the hon. the Premier to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Electoral Boundaries Delimitation Act, 1973', carried. (Bill No. 116).

On motion, Bill No. 116 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: ®rder 23. Continuing debate on second reading of a bill entitled, 'An Act To Establish The Alcohol And Drug Dependency Commission Of Newfoundland And Labrador, (Bill No. 109), the last daythe debate was adjourned by the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts), who spoke for sixteen minutes. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. S '

November 19,1981 Tape No. 3576 ah-1 MR. ROBERTS: Which means, Mr. Speaker, to show my arithmetic is better than the Finance Minister's (Dr. Collins), I have fourteen minutes left to soeak - up to. I will not need them all because much of w'-iat I wanted to say has been said ably by colleacrues on this side of the House and I do not need to repeat it.

Additionally the select committee on-whatever we are a select committee on, Chartered Accountants, Chartered General Accountants, The Corporations Act, The Partnership Act, The Change of Registration of Names Act, etc., come one,come all- are having a meeting and I want to go along to that. But when I spoke last day, Mr. Speaker, I made reference to a couple of points in the Bill,to which I hope the minister will address himself. I have put them forward very seriously and in a non-partisan but very public fashion.

I think they are genuine concerns and I think they merit response and I hope they will lead to some change by the government. It does not affect the principle of the bill but it certainly, I think, would affect the effective administration of the bill and of the commission which it will create. Now having said that, I do want very briefly to say that I support the bill and I commend the minister. I gather that the minister has made this kind of work a personal policy interest of his while he has been in that department.

He has been there now, I guess, longer than any minister in the present administratin has been in a portfolio and that may have some demerit but it has some very great merit in that • it gives a minister the time to become familiar and to get his teeth into the policy aspects of the department. I served in one of the predecessor departments - gosh, it was twelve years ago now to show how time has gone - and I know how fascinating and intriguing some of the

November 19,1981 Tape No. 3576 a'n-2 MR.ROBERTS: issues which are dealt with by that department, by the minister and his officialscan be , so 1 commend the minister and I do that because I think this is a step forward. I do not know what will a become of it, we will have to wait to see, but it is a step forward. It is a substantial step forward and it is an attack upon a problem. It is an attack upon a problem that is bad and is getting worse. And that is the other point I want to make in this bill. The minister had a fist-full of statistics and they were most interesting.

I do not know where they all came from but I do not quarrel with any of them because whether the figures are accurate in every last respect is really beside the point. What does count - MR. HICKEY: The National Research Council. MR. ROBERTS: Well, the miniser says the National Research Council. I am not saying they are inaccurate I do not care. What concerns me - when I say I do not care I mean I am not sure what an alcoholic is and I am not sure how we know how many alcoholics there are.

What I do know is that there are far to many alcoholics in this Provinceand what I do knoweven more tragically or more importantly is that there are going to be far more alcoholics in this Province in the years ahead than there are today. And that is the problem to which we ought to address ourselves and that , I tnist and hope,is the problem to which the foundation , its chairman and its members will address themselves. All I want to say on that,Mr. Speaker, quite simply-and I am not a teetotaller. I have no pretences to that particular type of virtue,if in fact that be a virtue.

I have always been one who followed the

November 19,1981 Tape No. 3576 ah-3 MR. ROBERTS advice, I think it is in Timothy; I am not sure which

chapter of Timothy but in St. Paul's letter- is it?-to Timothy and at least a rough paraphrase,and I will defer to any biblical scholar here if anybody cares to hazard his knowledge of the bible against mine. I will give way on the words but not on the thought - the thought is simply ,'Take thee a little wine for thy stch's sake.' And I have always thought that was good advice from a number of points of view and it is also founded, of course, on those words in that portion of Timothy which, of course, is the New Testament.

But I do know,and I have watched for many years with g0Wiflg concern,and I have spoken with doctors and social worke and people who run in to these problems every day ,that the problems we are encountering with alcohol in this Province are horrendous and they are getting worse. And we are building now in this Province- and I see rty friend from Exploits (Dr.

Twomey) with us, and when he is not here administerino to our public needs he is in Botwood administering to the physical and psychological needs of the people who come to him for medical advice in his role at the hospital and I am sure he will concur- that we are building in this Province one terriffic problem that is not far down the road. We have not seen the beginnings of the pain that is going to come from the abuse of alcohol in this Province today. We have not

November 19, 1961 Tape No. 3577 EL - 1 MR. ROBERTS: seen the beginnings in social terms, we have not seen the beginning in health terms. I do not know what proporation of the people who seek health care in our hospitals are there for alcohol-in- duced or alcohol-agravated illnesses,but it is very, very large. What? A third? Forty per cent? A half? That type of figure is not out of line. It is not one per cent or five per cent1 it is an astonishingly large figure. Nor have we seen the beginning of the pain in human terms, in what it does to families, in what it does to the financial pressures put upon people.

We iust have not begun. And I do not have any raft of answers. I am not sure there are any. Prohibition is not an answer. That has. been shown in this Province. It has been shown across North America. The restriction of alcohol may or may not be an answer. We have loosened up very drastically in this Province in the last fifteer to twenty years. I am not sure that was a step forward or not but it has been done now and it cannot be undone. Alcohol has become infinitely more readily available and that is certainly having its effect. It is having is effect in my constituency.

It is having its effect throughut the Province and anybody who deals in any way with the public will see that. But I am not saying we can do much about it. We cannot go back and it is certainly an argument that we ought not go back, but the point that I am making is that the problems which lie ahead on alcohol-or alcohol related, alcohol induced—are going to loom as mountains compared 4 to the molehills which we confront today. 9L7

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3577 EL - 2 MR. ROBERTS: So there is a job to be done by this Foundation. The minister is taking a first step. We on this side are supporting him because we agree with a what he is doing. We agree with the thrust of what he is doing. We may have some questions on some aspects but by and large we encourage him and support him in it. We certainly are going to vote in favour of the bill. What I say to the minister, Mr. Speaker, is that this foundation is but the beginning.

The creation of this body is but the first step on a very long road and none of us, and particularly the minister, should think when this bill becomes law, as it will and when the commission are appntedas they will be that anything has been solved or anything has been resolved. All that has happened is that one foot has been put on the road. It is a very long and perhaps a rocky road ahead of us. But I think, Sir, we owe it to the people of this Province to start on that road.

We owe it to the people of this Province to persevere on that road, and we owe it to the people of this Province to do what we are going to do as we are going to do and that is to pass this bill, Sir. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAXER(Sims) : The hon. the Minister of Ed- ucation. I g q

ovember 19, 181 Tape No. 3577 EL - 3 MS. VERGE: . saicer, I am very proud to speak in support of this bill to establish an alcohol and drug detoen 1' ccrrmission for our Province. I commend my colleague, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey),and his department for their initiative in putting forward this draft leg- islation. The problem of alcohol and drug dependancy as has been said by each preceding speaker, is a massive one in our Province. I am not sure that anyone appreciates the full extent of the problem nor understands the reasons for the complex problem.

However,there is no evidence to show that the problem is now any less than what it was in previous years. In fact, the evidence may point to wors- ening problems. To combat the evils, the pain, the human loss resulting from alcohol and drugs dependencies, it is going to be necessary to continue what has been going on in our Province,and that is an effort on the part of public and private agencies and individuals with back- grounds in not only social services or social work but also with professional expertise in the area of health and. third,in the area of education.

And as Education Min- ister, I would like to focus as my remarks from the per- spective of the contributions I know have been made and can be made in the future from the education professions in this co-operative effort of preventing and dealing with treating alcohol and drug dependencies. I commend the Minister of Social Services and the government who have put forward this draft legislation for the provision on the composition of this commission in setting the membership at the number of fift- een. It goes on to provide for balanced representation 9 fl

NoveTnber 19, 1981 Tape No. 3578 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: in terms of the geographyof the Province as saying that there has to be a member from each of five regions of this Province designated by the minister, and then going on to provide for representation from the Departments of Justice, Education, Health and, of course,Social Services, as well as four members chosen from the public at large. As Minister of Education I will be eager to appoint a representative from my department to this commission. I would like to tell you, Mr.

Speaker, and hon. members'of some of the work that is being done now by teachers and educators in our schools to address the problem, the issue, of alcohol and drug dependencies. We have a greatly improved health curriculum now, health programmes for primary students, elementary students, junior and senior high school students. In the lower grades ,from Kindergarten to Grade XI ,the curricula has laid a foundation for students in the body system of the human body systems and preventative health concepts.

With the beginning at the Grade X level of the revised high school programme this present school year, we have seen a new health course called Health 1100 which was developed by the Education Department curriculum people with the assistance of a working committee of teachers chaired by Sister Regina Cahill, who is the Assistant Superintendent for the Burin Roman Catholic School Board. This new course has been recei.red with great enthusiasm by teachers and students in our Province.

We know that most high schools are teaching this new health course to their Grade X students and in fact over half Grade X students 9 i I fl

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3573 NM - 2 MS. VERGE; have chosen the course. In the course outline, it says that Health 1100 is a one credit course intended for students in the first year of the senior high school programme, that is Grade X. It can be used to satisfy core requirements for high school graduation. The course content may be suitably adapted to the needs and interests of below average, average and above average students.

It would best to be taught by a teacher with a science background; however, it is recognized that a highly motivated teacher, with a special interest in health education could motivate students to a set responsibility for their own health and make the teaching of this course a worthwhile and meaningful exercise. So with the benefit of the foundation that has been laid for students in the lower grades, this course, which is now being taught to a majority of Grade X students throughout our Province,promotes a mature attitude towards personal health and responsible decisions in regard to health choices.

The main objective of the course is for students to understand physiological, flomoeostasis, and the individual's role in preserving it. To this end it, of course, develops an understanding of the way in which today's lifestyle choices determines tomorrow's health, nutrition as it applies to the students' developmental needs, normal emotional development and attitudes that affect mental health, and the need for an attitude of responsibility towards safety and a mature approach to seleCtive action in emergencies. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to go on by giving more detail from the course outline as it pertains specifically to drugs and alcohol and tobacco, which is considered a type of drug. AN HON. MEMBER: It certainly is. q h Li

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3578 NM - 3 MS. VERGE: Under the heading Drugs, the outline lists first the drug content of food, normal everyday food, caffeine found in Coke, Pepsi, colas, coffee, tea and chocolate, the drug caffeine, the kind of drug that is found in chocolate and tertanic S .3

November 19, 1981 lape 3579 EC - 1 * MS VERGE: acid,which is a substance in tea. Secondly, under 'drugs1 this course will deal with over-the--counter drugs, patent medicines such as analgesics, laxitives, antacids, antihistamines, vitamin supplements and drugs containing alcohol or opiates. Of course, most people do not realize that there is any problem associated with these kinds of over-the-counter drugs, but as this course will teach Grade X students in our Province, there are many harmful consequences from abuse of even those kinds of over-the-counter drugs.

The third type of drug addressed by this Grade X or revised high school course has to do with prescriptive drugs, antibiotics, barbituates, tranquillizers, anti-depressants and drug/drug, food/drug interactions. Evidence which has been better publicized in recent years to the general public shows widespread abuses of prescription drugs through over prescription especially to women, of tranquillizers and the problem of resulting cross-addictions, addictions to not only tranquillizers or some kinds of prescription drugs but also other substances such as alcohol.

A fourth type of drug dealt with in this course is psychoactive or mind altering substances, stimulants and depressants, hallucinogens, narcotics, and glue sniffing. A fifth topic under 'drugs' has to do with drugs and pregnancy, and finally, there is material on careers in drugs or medicines, pharmacist, toxicologist, rehabilitation counsellor. That is one important part of the new high school course, Mr.Speaker, which speaks to the many aspects and types of drugs. utit

November 19, 1981 Tape 3579 EC - 2 MS VERGE: A second coc:ent of this course addresses alcohol - the nature of alcohol, types of alcohol as a food product fermentation distillation. Then it goes on to talk about the effects of alcohol on the body, on the circulatory system, digestive system, nervous system, and then alcohol and pregnancy. Then there is a broader treatment of alcohol and society which deals with the use in cooking, in religious cere- monies, social drinking, drinking and driving, diseases related to alcohol ingestion, alcoholism as a family disease, and responsible drinking.

Finally, under the heading of 'Aldohol there is some material on alcohol related careers, for example, brew master, wine steward, bartender. As I mentioned before, Mr. Speaker, this course will give Grade X students material on tobacco, which is considered in this course as a type of drug, the nature of tobacco, the effects on the body, on the respiratory system, circulatory system, smoking and pregnancy. It talks about tobacco and society and diseases related to smoking. Finally, there is some general treatment about the impact of advertising. Mr.

Speaker, I think this new course, one of the signs of improvements already happening for our high school students, is going to be valuable in the overall effort mounted by public and private agencies of combatting abuses of drugs and alcohol. There is one main textbook prescribed for the course which I have, Mr. Speaker. It is called Health - A Way of Life. It is an excellent text aid for our teachers. And, of course, there is a variety of supplementary materials which have been recommended, many of which are being made available by 9 it

November 19, 1981 Tape 3579 EC - 3 MS VERGE: the Department H'alth through their excellent Public Health Nurses programme around the Province. The textbook lays out many interesting questions for discussion in the classroom Is 9LtL

Nov. 19, 1991 Tare No. 358fl DN - I MS. VERGE: and for consideration by students. For example, why is abuse of drugs a rental and social problem rather than a drug problem? What is the idea behind positive addictions, the relaxation response and so on? Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned before, this new health course called Health 1100 designed for Grade X,or the first of the three year high school pro- grarnme initiated by the Department of Education and begun across the Province in our schools just this Fall, has been very well received. I have some exact statistics from three St.

John's and area schools: At Brother Rice High School,a large high school with a largGrade X population, this year 73 per cent of the Grade X students or 180 boys are studying this new Health 1100 course4 At Gonzaga 49 per cent of the Grade X's are doing the course and at Holy Trinity School near St. John's 55 per cent of the Grade X's are studying Health 1100. That course was developed with assistance from the health and social work professions and it will be most successful only with their continued support.

The Department of Education conducted in-service training for teachers of this course at the start of the present school vear,and in the in-service education it was emphasized to the teachers that they should take advantage of community resources- they should seek the assistance. which I know will be willingly given,of public health nurses, of other health care professionals, of people working with the Department of Social Services and with other agencies such as the Alcohol and Drug Addiction Foundation.

And • that kind of inter-discip1inary approach is necessary to successfully deal with and treat the problems of alcohol and drug abuse.

November 19, 1981 Tape 3580 EC - 2 5 7ERE Plans have been laid within the Department of Education to go on to develop another health course for senior high school which will be a more advanced course known as the second level or 2000 level course,and again we will have to enlist the co-operation and support of other departments. Mr.

Speaker, the establishment, once this legislation is oassed -which I trust it will be.- of the Alcohol and Drug Dependency Commission with its good balance of membership, will enhance and support these efforts in programmes in our schools for our young people,to get at the source of problems of drug and alcohol dependency to instill in our young people positive attitudes towards their health, to promote good lifestyle choices so that alcohol and drug dependency will never result for these people. Mr.

Speaker, it is well known that alcohol and drug dependencies occur for various individuals because of underlying pressures and social problems. There are a number of factors which lead to abuse of alcohol and drugs with that abuse being merely symptoms, visible signs of deeper, more basic problems. These problems, the underlying causes are so often different for women and men because of the different roles prescribed through our society for men and women.

And it is recognized by the leaders in the effort to treat and combat alcohol and drug dependencies,that there have to be different approaches to identifying, preventing and treating alcohol and drug abuse for womenthan for men. Mr. Speaker, I know that my colleague, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) is sensitive to the importance of addressing the problems for q 1, L1 7

a Noverrther 19, 1981 Tape No. 3581 EL - 1 ME. VERGE: women and men differently and that his awareness of that need will be reflected in the composition of the commission. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say at this point that I think our administration and the administration of our Premier has an outstanding record, unprecedented in the history of our Provincefor being sensitive to and addressing the special needs of women in our Province. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear M&.VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I can say that that is one of the main reasons why I chose to run for election to this hon.

House and my faith in the commitment to the rights of women and to the needs of women on the part of our leader, the Premier, have been fulfilled. I think our Premier's record speaks for itself when we look at the quick passage of matrimonial property legislation) which for the first time recognized the husband and wife an equal partners in a marriage, said that each partner's contribution,whether in the form of labour, housework, child raising or to income earning, is each substantial and necessary to a successful marriage.

Then we had legislation estab- lishing a provincial advisory council on the status of women and the administration went on to make that advisory committee effective by selecting key leaders among fem- inists in our Province known to be outspoken in the cause for women's rights and then providing a generous budget for the advisory council. tL LL P

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3581 EL - 2 NS. VERGE y cola;a, t Labour and Manpower (iir. Dinn) over herehas addressed the special needs of women in the work force in our Province. He has had appointed a special advisor, an advisor dir- ectly to him on the needs of women in the work force. So, Mr.Speaker, I was very disappointed yesterday in this hon. House when I heard, for one of the few times in the two and a half years that I have been sitting in this hon. House, the Leader of the Opposition and the member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) speak about the needs to protect womens rights.

Now, they did not offer any positive steps as to how this may be ach- ieved. Indeed the few times they have addressed the sub- ject it has been from a negative or destructive or reactive stance. Yesterday, obviously they were playing to the women sitting in the Gallery. MR. GOUDIE: Hear, hear MS. VERGE: I have to say though that,in the absence of an audience in the Gallery, their concern for women has not been evident. So, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion I would like to say that this legislation to establish an Alcohol and Drug Dependency Commission is needed.

I whole- heartedly support it and I think it is going to enhance and improve efforts which have been ongoing through the public sector, with the Departments of Education, Health and Social Services co-operating, is going to go a long ways to add- ressing the very serious and sad problems associated with the abuse of alcohol and drugs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 9 I h Q

November 19, 1921 Tape No. 2E2 - 2 4 MR. CHAIPMAN(Baird) I would like to request of the hon. member before I recogn-ize himthat I may have to interject at five for the announcement of the Late Show. The hon. member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted -have a few words. I was really disappointed- I was following with great interest some of the things that the Minister of Educaion (Ms. Verge) was reading from the booklet that she has there in front of her and I thought she was - MR. TULK: A course outline. MR. NEARY: A course outline. Is that what it was? MR. TULK: Yes. 1R.

NEARY: Well maybe we should all adjourr now to the Sir Robert Bond auditorium to have a few words from the principal. MR. TULK: That is right. MR. NEARY: But, Mr. Speaker, it was all very interesting and at the end the minister could not resist the temptation to get a little dart at the Opposition. Get a little dart at us. AndMr. Speaker, just let me show you how ridiculous her remarks were. She said the opposition, here we are over here, look,are not concerned about the women, not concerned about ladies MR. TULK: What? MR. NEARY: -not concerned about females.

We are unconcerned, we are not concerned about females. MR. TULK: What? MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak for the other members of the House- MR. TULK: Yes, you can. MR. NEARY: - on this side of the House. MR. TULK: Yes you can. You can so. MR. NEARY: I can? Can I speak for the other members?

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3581 - 4 NP. DITN: Well, wait now Peter is not here. MR. NEARY: Well, I can tell the hon. Minister of Education (Ms.Verge) that I personally am very concerned 1 q S I

November 19, 1981, Tape 3582, Page 1 -- apb MR. WEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. YOUNG: me, I would have two. MR. WEARY: me, I would have two. MR. NEARY: law would permit it? Well - I beg your pardon? If the law would permit You would have two if the about women. Oh, oh If the law would permit MR. TULK: That is the type of attitude that the minister should be talking about. MR. WEARY: We think the world of women, Mr. Speaker. We cannot live with them and we cannot live without them. MR. YOUNG: That is why you should have two. MR.

NEARY: I hope I never hear the minister make a statement like that again, that we are not concerned about women. MS. VERGE: What would you advocate to improve the situation for women? MR. WEARY: What do I advocate? One thing I advocate is the clause that the Prime Minister of this country had in his constitution about equality of sexes should have been left there, and your boss, the Premier of this Province, should not have allowed it to be removed from the constitution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MS. VERGE: What does the Saskatchewan Government say about it? MR.

NEARY: What does the Saskatchewan Government say about it? I .

November 19, 1981, Tape 3582, Page 2 -- apb MS. VERGE: Yes. MR. NEARY: Well, if it is the Saskatchewan Government that is objecting to it, then I am amazed, because the NOP Party are committed to supporting equal status. They are committed to it. Mr. Speaker, if that is so, I am completely shocked. I am shocked If it is Blakeney, and I do not know for sure - the minister apparently is indicating that, that it is the Premier of Saskatchewan who is objecting to this clause being put back into the constitution - then I am completely shocked.

And I hope the word will go right across Canada, to Saskatchewanthat that is contrary to the philosophy and the commitment of the NDP Party. How can he get away with it? How can he get away with it, Mr. Speaker? MR. TULK: If it were our Premier we would not let him get away with it. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. TULK: If it were our Premier we would not let him get away with it. MR. NEARY: I would say it was probably another Premier who objected to it, but he went down the tube the other day, the day before yesterday, Sterling Lyon. AN HON. MEMBER: A one termer. MR. NEARY: A one termer.

Well, maybe Mr. - what is his name? The fellow in - MR. ROBERTS: Pawley. MR. NEARY: -Pawley will meet the same fate when he lays his political future on the line. But I hope I never hear the minister ever again make a statement like that. For the benefit of the minister, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I love females. I love them. MS. VERGE: What do you want to do to prcve it?

November 19, 181, Tape 3582, Page 3 -- apb MR. WEARY: t do I want to do? Anytning. What can .1 do? I cannot do any more than I am doing. I have three teenage daughters. MS. VERGE: (Inaudible) suggest? MR. WEARY: Yes, give me a gew suggestions as to what I can do to make a brighter and healthier future for my three teenage daughters. I will gladly take my seat, yield, if the hon. minister will make me a couple of suggestions. MR. THOMS: And them implement them. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. minister care to - MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Order, please I should think a fair degree of flexibility has been allowed on both sides.

I still have not heard anything on Bill 109. MR. WEARY: Bill 109, Mr. Speaker, is a positive piece of legislation. It is positive. But, Mr. Speaker, if the minister allows himself to fall into the trap of making political appointments on this Alcohol and Drug Commission, then it will fail. I hope that the minister, when he is making his appointments, will do so, not along political lines, that he will make the appointments based on qualifications and backgrounds of the people who will be depended upon to make this commission a success. It would be a grave mistake, Mr.

Speaker, it would get the commission off to a very bad start if, for instance, a fund raiser for the Tory Party was the one who was appointed Chairman of the commission. If that was allowed to happen, that indeed would be a grave mistake, I think, to turn it into politics right 9 L

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3583 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: from day one. It has to be corapietely indecendent, non-political, non-oartisan and I am sure the minister who is just taking his seat would not go and look for some hardened Tory, some coirnitted Tory to put on this commission. I am sure the hon. gentleman would not do that because he knows - DR. COLLINS: What is wrong with Tories? MR. NEARY: There is nothing wrong with Tories, Mr. Speaker, but it is wrong, it is a wrong principle to use politics in the setting up of this commission. So that is my first piece of advice that I have to give the - MR.

YOUNG: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Maybe one of the first qualifications is that you have to be a fund raiser for the Tory Party. MR. YOUNG: I do not know about a fund raiser but (inaudible) MR. NEARY: If those are the qualifications, then the thing is doomed. As the hon. gentleman knows the civil servants, the members of the public service, who will be appointed to it will have no confidence at all in the commission. MR. YOUNG: You are prejudging it. MR. NEARY: No, I am not prejudgirig it, I am just merely making a statement of fact that the whole thing has to be completely independent, impartial and non-political.

That is the first thing. Now, Mr. Speaker, in the introduction of the bill - I am sorry I was not here to hear all the hon. minister's remarks that he made in introducing the bill. I have read the comments in the newspapers and so forth and, in my opinion .from what has gone on in this debate so far - MR. TULK: What has transpired. MR. NEARY: - what has transpired in this debate so far, as the school teacher to my right reminds me, is that, in my ooinion too much emphasis is being put on alcoholism and not enough on drugs. Practically every speaker, except the

November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3583 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: Minister of Education )iis. Verge) who hit on some of the things that I was thinking about saying in this debate, the hon. minister reading from the course 4 outline and making her own personal observations and her own comments ,hit on some of the things that I think are a real problem. So I hope that before second reading winds up that we will get a bit of a balance, that the minister will give us some statistics and some information on the drug problem in Newfoundland and Labrador. We have seen an awful lot of statistics about alcoholism.

When the minister was getting his statistics from the National Research Council I am sure that he just was not hanging his hat on the drug problem - on the alcohol problem rather, that this commission not only deals with alcoholism which is a major problem,but also deals with drugs. I am a little bit in the dark. I am not quite sure ,from the comments that I have heard and read in the last couple of days,when we have been debating this bill just how serious the drug problem is in Newfoundland at the present time. Is it getting worse? Is it getting better? Are people - MR. CALLAN: The Speaker wants the floor. MR.

NEARY: Oh,I am sorry. MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD) : Order, p1ease I would like to thank the hon. member for allowing the Chair to disrupt him in his speech with the announcement of the Late Show. It being five oclock I can inform the House that I have received notice of three motions for debate at five-thirty when a motion to adjourn will be deemed before the House. First is notice given by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Mines (Mr. Windsor) and the subject matter is Wabush mines.

Second notice is given by the hon. member for Bellevue arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Finance

overnber 19, 1981 aa No. 3533 N?. SPTAKER (BAIRD): (Dr. Collins) and the subject matter is the future of the Come By Chance refinery. The third notice is given by the hon. the member for Terra Nave Mr. Lush) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) and the subject matter is unemployment in the Province. Thank you. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the point I was making, and I hope that the minister will make a note of it is, you know, how does the drug problem in Newfoundland and Labrador at the present time compare to the alcohol problem? $

November 19, 1981 Tape 3584 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Is it on par? Are people, as were led to believe, switching from drugs to booze -. MR. MOORES: What about the drugs that doctors rescribe? MR. NEARY: Yes, I am coming to that. - and so on'? Are our young people graduating to hard drugs throughout the Province? In the roaring 1950s drugs as hon. members know, probably became the biggest curse in society. And then since the roaring 1950s the emphasis on drugs seems to have fallen of f somewhat. And I am not sure whether the reason for this is that people are taking it more for granted or they have gone back to booze.

I would think, Mr. Speaker, if I were to hazard a guessthat it is probably a combination of both. I would think that drugs are more acceptable today than they were in the roaring 1950s. Today it is very common to hear people say et us have a toke; very common indeed. MR. STAGG: Let us have a what? MR. NEARY: Let us have a toke? N H. MEMBER: You know all the slang. MR. NEARY: There are. Mr. Speaker, if somebody said to me ten years ago - R. MOORES: Hello, toke. Do not plead ignorance 'Stagg'. MR.

NEARY: If somebody said to me ten years ago that a thirteen year old boy in a small community like Rose Blanche would be taken out of his bed at nine o'clock in the morning by the RCMP for selling drugs, I would have said they were crazy. If somebody told me that I would say they were crazy. HP.. TULK: For trafficking. MR. NEARY: For trafficking. MR. TULK: How old? MR. NEARY: Thirteen. q[ 1Zq -

November 19, 1981 Thpe 3584 PR - 2 m. !ocREs: Well,he really was not trafficking it. MR. NEARY: Well what was he doing? MR. MOORES: Well, it was just - MR. NEARY: Well, okay • Welimaybe the law needs to be changed, I do not know. MR. MOORES: That is right. That is right. Very much so. Never mind (inaudible) MR. NEARY: But , Mr. Speaker, this is very commonplace today. I was in Stephenville once, and my hon. friend looks at me in disbelief, the hon. gentleman thinks I am exaggerating. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. NEARY: I was there and I was amazed.

I was a guest speaker at a function in Stephenville, they had a little reception for me after and the hon. gentleman and myself were there chatting, and everybody was tddnq her up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh M.R. CALLAN: Is that right. MR. STAGG. Was the hon. gentleman? MR. WARREN: Everybody MR. STAGG: Everybody? MR. NEARY: No, not everybody. Everybody around us, Just about everybody was having a toke. The hon. gentleman knows what - MR. STAGG: Name (inaudible) MR. NEARY: No,I would not do that, that would not be fair.

I am driving out to my dirstrict,I pick up a couple of hitch-hikers Before they see the lights of Port aux Basques they say to me, "How close are we to Port aux Basques?" And I say, 'Well,we probably gotabout another four or five miles". 'Oh, well, let us have a toke.' I do not know why they want to have a toke before they got to Port aux Basques. 9 L Cl

November 19, 1981 Tape 3584 PK - 3 AN HON. MEER: I smoke cicarettes occsirrn11v. MR. NEARY: They wanted to form some kind of an impression in their rnirs of what Port aux Basques looked like, I suppose it is the first time they were there. MR. STAGG: Tney probably learned who they were driving with. MR. TULK: Is that supposed to be funny? MR. NEARY: Yes, I mean it is really, really funny. I mean, it is a very - wellthe point I am tryinp to make, Mr. Speaker, is that it is a very serious problem. Drugs are in- to every tiny settlement and community in this Province.

And if somebody told me that ten years ago , five years ago, a year ago I would have laughed at them. I would have laughed at them. I would have said, no it is not true, Newfoundlanders are not like that. But with the movement of people back and forth across Canada and the United States and the television, the impact that that is having on peoples minds - MR. CALLAN: Got a toke? MR. NEARY: - Mr. Speaker, it is virtually possible to buy drugs in any community in Newfoundland today. I do not care how big or how small it is, it is possible. AR. MOORES: That is right. That is right. MR. NEARY: And so - MR.

TULK: And che hard drugs too. MR. NEARY: Wellmarijuana and hash I know, I do not know about hard drugs. MR. CALLAN: They are going for the hash, boy - MR. NEARY: The trouble is - MR. CALLAN: - that is why it is imported. - - MR. NEARY: And my hon. colleague here probably knows more about it than I do, not from personal eience - but from reading and associating with young people and so forth, that you graduate to hard drugs. MR. CALLAN: (Inaudible) your hash (inaudible.

f November 19, 1981 Tape No. 3585 13-1 MR. NEARY: Now, is it troo or is it not true? MR. CALLAN: Baloney and hash. MR. NEARY: The hon. Minister 05 healtO (Mr. House) says it is not true. MR. HOUSE: I do not know if it is or not. You could argue (inaudible) MR. STAGG: I understand the hon. gentleman sprinkles it on his corn f1ake. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. HICKEY: There is no evidence of it. MR. NEARY: There is no evidence, my hon. friend says, there is no evidence to substantiate that. But there is no evidence to say that it is not true either. MR. HOUSE: There is nothing to reassure us. MR. NEARY: That i