LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURAL AFFAIRS AND HISTORICAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): We will call the meeting to order. We're on Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources, 1.(

e) Translation Services.

(1) Salaries-pass -( Interjection) - No? MR. ABE KOVNATS (Niakwa): I was just checking my volume here and I don't have a sound. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you on the right channel? MR. KOVNATS: Should I be on two? Three. thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on 1.( e)

(1) Salaries-pass: 1. (e)

(2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Niakwa. MR. KOVNATS: On the Translation Services. and I'm not going to keep you too long. Mr. Chairman. but I would like to ask the Honourable Minister whether, in fact. under Translation Se rvices. and I don't know where else to ask it. but if a Member of the Legislature wants to take some French classes or some of the official second language classes. by what opportuni­ ties through the Provincial Government does he have to take these classes? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON.

EUGENE KOST YRA (Seven Oaks): The oppor­ tunities for that would exist either under the Civil Service Commission or the French Language Se rvi­ ces which has now been transferred out of the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resour­ ces to the Executive Council. MR.

KOVNATS: Is the Honourable Minister advising me that I have to contact the Executive Council if I want to. as a representative of the people of Manitoba and wanting to learn the second language of the Prov­ ince of Manitoba or of all of Canada, that I have to contact the Executive Council for whatever assis­ tance that they can be so that I can take some extra courses so that I can be bilingual? MR. KOST YRA: Mr. Chairman. I indicated that the French Language Se rvices has been transferred to Executive Council. It's Mr. Roger Turenne and that would be the area you can inquire.

I don't believe there is any policy with respect to that for Members of the Legislature. but I believe there is some program being worked out. I do not have any direct knowledge of that; it's not in my area of responsibility. MR. KOVNATS: Could the Honourable Minister advise as to whose area of responsibility it is? MR.

KOST YRA: I indicated there are two sources. one is the Civil Service Commission. which is the re�ponsibility of the Minister responsible, which is the Honourable Vic Schroeder and the French Language Services, which is under Executive Council and is the responsibility of the Premier. the First Minister. MR. KOVNATS: Thank you very much. Mr. Chair­ man. Obviously. the Honourable Minister is - well, no, he's not passing the buck, but he doesn't have an answer. I'm really looking for an answer and I'm not getting any help from anybody.

What does one do if they want to learn a second language if they are, let's say, who don't have the same opportunities as myself, as an elected respresentative, just anybody in the Province of Manitoba who wants to become bilingual, wants to respect the laws of the land and become bilingual? What does one do under Cultural Affairs? MR. KO STYRA: Mr.

Chairman, the initial question that the honourable member had asked was with respect to a Member of the Legislature; if you're ask­ ing with respect to the member of public then that answer is best answered through the Department of Education and the public school system. MR. KOVNATS: If I wasn't an elected representative and I don't have the opportunity of going through the public school system and I think that a person should have the opportunity of becoming bilingual.

A person of the age of a little bit past 40, what opportunities does that person have to go through the Department of Education to become bilingual? 1910 MR. KO STYRA: Mr. Chairman, I fully support the comments that have been made by the Member of Niakwa to encourage people to take second language training, in specific French language training, but those services are not offered by or through the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resour­ ces. I indicated, and I think the member is well aware, because I was under the impression that the honour­ able member did indeed take such training.

I think he knows the answer better than I do, that there are facilities through the school divisions, both extension and regular classes to take such training. MR. KOVNATS: Yes, the honourable member did take such courses through the Federal Government, through the Department of Civil Service, and I did take a course through the Federal Civil Service, and I did take a course through the St. Boniface College, but I paid for it myself.

I was wondering, whether in fact there's got to be some assistance to people who want to take this course, who really don't have the facilities or the financial background to take these courses and I think that everybody should be entitled to take these cour ses. What does one person do if they don't have I could probably do it on my own and put a little pressure on somebody, the Honour­ able Minister or somebody, to take these courses, but there have got to be other people who want to take these courses. What do they do? Do they just sit there

and sweat it out and throw their hands up in the air and say, you know, I'd love to speak French and I can't afford it, but there has got to be some assistance. We are a bilingual nation and what help do they get? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. GERARD LEC UYER (Radisson): Just a com­ ment in regards to MR. KOVNATS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I didn't ask the Honourable Member for Radisson the question, I asked the Honourable Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: As I indicated, Mr.

Chairman, that area of responsibility doesn't lie within the Depart­ ment of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources. That is the responsibility of the Department of Education and I certainly support in general the points that the honourable member was making with respect to the availability of taking such training, but that is the type of courses that are offered through the public school system, through St. Boniface College and through other sources, not through the Department of Cultur­ al Affairs and Historic Resources. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Radisson. MR.

LEC UYER: I want to assure the Member for Niakwa that I wasn't going to give him that answer, anyway. I was just going to draw to his attention that the thing is usually you learn more when you have to pay for it, but you seem to say that you will probably learn more if you don't have to pay for it. Maybe, that's the way you see it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR.

KOVNATS: I wasn't aware that the Honourable Member for Radisson had the opportunity of asking the Honourable Member for Niakwa questions, but under this situation I think that I could learn every bit as well if I didn't have to pay for it as if I did have to pay for it. I enjoy speaking the language, I am almost bilingual and I would like to finish off my co urse. I am frustrated trying to finish off my co urse.

I am just looking for some help and obviously the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs can't give me any help because he refers me to the Department of Education and the Department of Education, I don't think, is in any position at all to offer me any assistance in becoming bilingual. I have tried through the Federal Civil Service and not received any satisfaction. I started a course there and they changed their policies through the Federal Civil Service. i am just looking for some help and I'm just not getting it. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman.

I indicated that one possible area that he may want to take that suggestion to is the French Language Services Section, which has a mandate to advise government on policy with respect to French language. If he would like. I would 27 April, 1982 1911 be prepared to take that rec ommendation there for him and help him out, since he needs some assistance. MR. KOVNATS: To the Honourable Minister, I cer­ tainly would like - I did have some association with le sous-ministre, Mr. Rene Prefontaine, prior to him leaving the Civil Service of the Province of Manitoba and he was of great assistance to me.

I knew where to go under the previous administration. All I'm asking is, where do I go under this administration? I am not being critical, Mr. Minister. I'm just looking, where do I go? MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 1. (e) (2} The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. GER RIE HAMMOND (Kirkfield Park): Just one question on the French Language Services, Mr. Chairman. What was the reasoning for the change from Cultural Affairs to the Executive Council? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, the reason, as I understand it, for the transfer of the

section to the Executive Council was to have greater access to the broader policy questions that relate to that section. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 1.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures­ pass; 1.(f)

(1) Legislative Library - the Member for Niakwa. MR. KOVNATS: I don't mean to prolong this. Under Translation Services, is there any other translation services other than English to French and French to English? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOST YRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I had indicated the answer to that question this afternoon that the

Section also provides translation in such languages as German, Spanish, Dutch, Hungarian. MR. KOVNATS: Would Russian or Chinese be included? MR. KOST YRA: Not at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 1. (

f) Legislative Library,

(1) Salaries - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. HAMMON D: Mr. Chairman, the funds in this

section are the same that were going to be allocated by the previous administration, other than the Other Expenditures. which are down slightly. What is the reason for that and are there any changes in this particular area? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I' m not sure what the member is referring to by what was budgeted by the previous administration because that would be the -are you referring to the 1981-82?

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 MRS. HAMMOND: No, I was referring to the new figures. I think the former administration had extra funds in there, a small amount, and I was just wonder­ ing possibly what the changes were. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park, could we get you to pull your micropho ne a little closer to yo urself, Hansard is having trouble picking it up. MR. KOST YRA: Mr. Chairman, I really don't know what additional amounts the member is referring to. There's no MRS. HAMMOND: Are there any changes in the Legislative Library? MR. KO STYRA: Mr.

Chairman, there's no changes with respect to staffing in the Legislative Library. The increases in salaries is due to reclassifications and upward adjustments due to merit increases and there's the additional amount in Other Expenditures for the increased co sts in books and microfilming and such. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)

(1) Salaries-pass; 1. (f)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 1.(

g) Manitoba Film Clas­ sification Board,

(1) Salaries-pass. The Member for Niakwa. MR. KOVNATS: What do the salaries entail? Who are the salaries for and what do these people do to receive these salaries? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: There's two full-time positions in the Film Classification Board and their function is to pro­ vide the services to the Film Classification Board as needed. As the member is aware, there is a Film Clas­ sification Board that does review and classify films and the two staff people are there to assist the Board. MR.

KOVNATS: Are these two people just there to view the film or are these the people who project the film so that somebody can look at them and give some decision on them? MR. KO STYRA: Mr. Chairman, the two staff members are: one, a co mbination projectionist and office manager and sec ondly, an assistant projectionist and inspector. MR. KOVNATS: Then the Honourable Minister is really saying these are the people who do the work, but who are the people who make the decision on classification or are there any such people? MR. KOST YRA: Mr.

Chairman, the people that make such decisions are the members of the Film Classifi­ cation Board. It's appointed by statute. MR. KOVNATS: Do these people receive a salary for being on the Film Classification Board because we are talking about Salaries under Manitoba Film Clas­ sification Board? The only people that have been dis­ cussed at this point are the projectionist and the assistant projectionist. Do the people who serve on the Classification Board receive a salary? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, the question that was originally asked was with respect to staffing and I indicated what the staffing was.

The Film Classifica­ tion Board has a chairperson who receives a fee of $924.48 per month and individual members receive $25 for each film that they view and $25 for each meeting that they attend with respect to the Board's activities. MR. KOVNATS: Okay, let's get back to the original question then. I said under Salaries, do these people who receive a fee of $900 for one and $25 for another, does that not come under Salaries or is that under a special classification? MR. KOSTYRA: That comes under Other Expendi­ tures of 14. 1. (g)(2). MR. KOVNATS: Fine, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS.

HAMM OND: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I want to know how the Board works. Is it on a rotating basis and do they work in teams or do the same three or four work together or is it just as the names come up? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, there are 15 viewing members on the Board with all members taking part on a regular basis. Three of the members are sche­ duled for each week and during that week they are called in to view any films which are presented. So, therefore, each person participates on an average of once every five weeks. MRS. HAMM OND: What happens, Mr.

Chairman, if there is a disagreement among the members as to the classification? MR. KO STYRA: Mr. Chairman, the situation that was raised in the question by the honourable member has never occ urred, but if it were to occur then another panel would be called. MRS. HAMMOND: It's hard to believe, but I take your word for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. KOVNATS: It has oc curred. 1912 MRS. HAMMOND: I noticed that in past years that the classification as "Restricted Adult" has decreased.

Is that because the industry has cleaned up its act, or are the members of the board getting a littled jaded? -( Interjection) - That's what I mean. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOST YRA: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the reason for that change is just the product that's been

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 produced by the industry is changing. MRS. HAMMON D: I guess my point was that, is this the sort of a board that probably should be turned over maybe every co uple of years, that after you - (I nterjection)- Clean up your act too. If it's the sort of thing that you watch and after a while you start not to notice what the public might consider restricted any­ more. Has this come up at all and is this a problem? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, I have difficulty deal­ ing with this area and maybe the honourable member has better knowledge and expertise in this area, because I certainly have never had the opportunity to view any of the films, but the number of films in that area have gone down somewhat since the obscenity trials. But as far as the honourable member's sugges­ tion of changing the board - I don't know if you're suggesting they should be changed every so many years. MRS. HAMMOND: Yes, that's what I was suggesting.

I'm afraid I'm probably the wrong one to be asking the.se questions in the first place because I never go to movies, but it's the one thing that constantly will come up as far as people worrying about the kind of films that their children go to see and students getting in under age. I know that that's the hardest thing to keep in any way, because kids today look so much older and unless you went into some sort of a pass with their picture on it and age, and even then they'd get around it. How long, or maybe the Minister did answer this, Mr. Chairman, how long are the members appointed for? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, the term of appoint­ ment for board members is two years. MRS. HAMMOND: Have there been any changes on the board in the past, say, five months? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I was hesitating ans­ wering that question, because I responded to a pre­ vious question that a certain situation had not arisen and on a point of order it was claimed that it had, but I was referring to the time that I' d been responsible for the board. With respect to the direct question, no, there hasn't been any changes to the board since I've been responsible for this department. MRS.

HAMMOND: Are you referring to the fact that members on the board have had disagreements then before your time as Minister; I was just asking what the policy is, if that does occ ur? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'd indicated that it had not oc curred and if it would, then there would be another panel called. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR.

KOVNATS: To the Minister's credit, not chang­ ing the board for political reasons is to his credit and I understand and I appreciate the Honourable Minis­ ter's attitude towards this type of thing. 1913 I'm probably the most competent person to go back in film classification for probably thirty-some odd years, from my background in the film distributing business, many, many years ago. -( lnterjection) ­ l'm sorry. A MEMBER: You made some. MR. KOVNATS: Actually no.

I don't go back as far as the Honourable Attorney-General and not to make light of it, but you know I don't think that we're being that critical of the Honourable Minister. I think that he understands the situation and I think that he's got to be satisfied with his Film Classification Board. It doesn't say whether in fact I agree whether there should be a Classification Board, because I don't. I think that it should be everybody's attitude as to whether they want to attend a film or not to attend a film, freedom of choice and the Film Classification Board really doesn't give you freedom of choice.

Now after saying that, I say that the Honourable Minister is doing a good job. I wouldn't want to see any changes made in the Classification Board for political reasons MR. KOSTYRA: You're not going to touch my salary, are you? MR. KOVNATS: No. I'm not going to touch your salary because of it. I don't think that you get paid enough and I really - the only reason that I MR. KOSTYRA: It's only 6,000 and change. MR.

KOVNATS: Nine Hundred Dollars and change, that's pretty good, but I didn't realize it was so high, but I still have no intention of changing it and not to make light of it, I would hope that the Honourable Minister would think at one time of doing away with the Film Classification Board co mpletely, to the point where people have the choice of going to see a film. Now if there's any film that is not ac ceptable to the general public, I think there's got to be some other way of restricting it rather than a Film Classification Board. Well, I'll just go a little bit further because you know everybody MR.

KOSTYRA: Just how much further? MR. KOVNATS: Well, just a little bit further, because everybody's got a different attitude towards different things. I remember a picture that goes back a lot of years, and it was called "Reach for the Sky," about a chap, a Douglas Bader, B-A-D-E-R, who was shot down and he was in a German Prison Camp in the Second World War and he was being brought along and he was inspecting the troops and the guards in the Prison Camp.

At that point he made some remark or one of the fellows watching him making the inspec­ tions said, "Look, he's inspecting the bastards." Now at the time, that was con sidered an adult movie, because of the word "bastard." If the word "bastard" was removed, it would have been consi­ dered general, so we have come a long way in our attitude towards film and the language that is being

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 used in films. Dirty words in films have never been accep table to me and never will be, but I say we've come a long way. I think that we should all have the opportunity of viewing whatever film we want without the Classification Board advising us as to what we can see and what we can't see. With those last few remarks, thank you very much. MR. KOST YRA: Mr.

Chairman, when the Honourable Member for Niakwa started out, I thought he was suggesting. given his interest in this area, that he wanted to serve on the Board and I was willing to take that under consideration if he was planning on resign­ ing his seat that I would certainly co nsider the place­ ment of him on the Film Classification Board. MR. KOVNATS: Mr. Chairman, I really have consi­ dered serving on the Board and then when I listen to the Other Expenditures and the figure $25 came up, I can't afford it. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 1.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures­ pass. We'll go on to Cultural Heritage Programs. 2. (a)

(1) Cultural Grants - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. HAMMOND: Rather than dealing strictly with Cultural Grants, I am just wondering, is there any change in direction in the delivery of any of the pro­ grams which are presently being offered? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the line we're dealing with, 14(a), that's the grants to the major cultural organizations and I am not aware of any change of direction outside some change of direction that the Manitoba Arts Council is contem­ plating with respect to some programs there.

I can get into detail in that area, if you want. These are the grants that go to the major cultural organizations. MRS. HAMMOND: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I was starting to go all over the board here and I was passing on. We will deal then with the Manitoba Arts Council. Would the Minister indicate any changes that are happening with the Arts Council? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the Manitoba Arts Council, as I indicated in my opening statement, there is a substantial incr ease in funds to the Manitoba Arts Council, which will provide them to continue their ongoing support to the major perform­ ing arts organizations that they fund.

Also, they are attempting, for the first time in a number of years, to increase the amount of assistance that they give to professional artists, visual artists. both with direct grants and through their Artists in the Schools Pro­ gram because it has been one area. as I understand it, from the Manitoba Arts Council that has been lagging behind with respect to financial support over the .last number of years. They are planning on increasing that area of activity. MRS. HAMMOND: What is the amount allocated to the Manitoba Arts Council for this year? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, the amount allocated to the Manitoba Arts Council for this year will be $1, 203,000 for their general program and there's an additional amount of $30,000 to allow them to get into an audit control program. which is one of their rec ommendations that was made some time ago. MRS. HAMM OND: Under the Manitoba Arts Council that the Minister has just amended, one of the reasons indicated was that the Council appointments not only would give extra time for people to work on the differ­ ent programs, but also that they will be rotated so as to ensure renewal as well as continuity.

I must admit that the concept is a good one and I imagine that most boards are set up in that very manner, but as long as they are appointments by Order-in-Council and they are considered political appointments, I wonder if it isn't a bit of an exercise in futility. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman. as I understand it the appointments before were for a three-year period and all of the previous administration had extended all of the appointments past the three-year period, I think, in anticipation of the legislation that we had brought forward and was recently passed in the House, that was proceeding under the previous administration. As that Act has not been proclaimed yet, we haven't started the process of setting Board appointments up on a term basis, but I believe it makes some sense to have them over a staggered period. MRS. HAMM OND: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, actually it makes a lot of sense if that is the way boards work, but I guess that's just a comment on what happens with boards. I hope that the Minister, as well as looking at regional areas, will keep as many women on the Arts Council as were appointed before. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I certainly will attempt it, if and when there are changes to the Manitoba Arts Council. In fact, if there are changes from time to time in any of the boards that we deal with, we would ensure that there is great representation from women.

I might add, there were four appointments made recently to the Manitoba Arts Council, of which 50 percent were women. MRS. HAMMOND: I am pleased to hear that, Mr. Chairman. I believe, under the Arts Council, that a study was done some time ago about the - I guess it was a report entitled, "Space and Capital Require­ ments of the Arts in Manitoba." Has the Minister had any opportunity to deal with this at all or is this some­ thing that is just going to be dealt with by the Arts Council? 1914 MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairperson, the Arts Council does not get directly involved in capital programs.

Their programs are basically operating grant type programs. The honourable member is referring to a report that was done some time ago, commonly referred to as the Jackson Report, that outlined a number of areas of concern with respect to space needs for arts organizations. I am aware of the critical need for facilities. In fact, I have had representation from approximately 10 or 12 different organizations

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 that are looking for some type of existing building to be altered for various needs of arts organizations or, in some cases, new construction. There are no funds set aside in this budget year for any such buildings. There is, under the Core Area Initiatives under the tri-level agreement with the Fed­ eral Government, the City of Winnipeg, and the Pro­ vincial Government, funds set aside for the possibility of having an arts complex loca ted in the Heritage area of Winnipeg.

There is a feasibility study has been approved outside of naming the person or persons that will be carrying on that study. They will be addressing themselves to that issue to find available space in the Heritage Winnipeg area to accom modate some or all of the needs of the various arts organiza­ tions that were identified in the Jackson Report. There are a number of other developments with a number of organizations working together to try to bring together the various needs of many of the arts organizations that either do not have any type of space right now or have space that isn't adequate to their needs.

Our department is working with those various organizations to identify the various propos­ als. and hopefully through the Core Initiatives or in future look at how all those needs could be met. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. HAMM OND: The Manitoba Arts Council pres­ ented a brief to the Federal Cultural Policy Review Committee dated March 9, 1981, which was well received, I understand, by the artistic co mmunity.

There were just a couple of items in it now on page 2, "It should not be the role of government to provide the direction of cultural development but rather to pro­ vide the framework within which our culture can evolve in its own direction." I wonder if the Minister would comment. MR. KOSTYRA: I've heard of that report though I haven't read a copy of it but it was presented by the Arts Council to the Cultural Review that was being done by the Federal Government.

If the honourable member is asking me as to what role the government should be taking with respect to cultural develop­ ment, I think the government has to provide the mechanism and the means so that culture will flourish within the province not by specific direction but by overall direction so that various cultural, both profes­ sional and amateur, and individuals can have the opportunity to further their endeavours. MRS. HAMM OND: Mr.

Chairman, the next part that I was wondering if the Minister might comment on was where the Manitoba Arts Council supports the arm's length funding and then, just as government must not interfere with the decisions of the funder, the funder must not interfere in the decisions of the Board and the Board not interfere with the decisions of the artis­ tic director. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr . Chairman, I guess there are a half a dozen areas one could comment on there. I don't know what specific comment the honourable member is looking for.

Certainly, the role of an agency like the Manitoba Arts Council and the reason it was set up as an arm's length agency was so that it could deal with professional arts groups and profes­ sional artists so that government would not be involved in making artistic decisions. There is some concern from time to time that areas the Arts Council may be involved in tend to overlap with what work is being done directly by the Department of Cultural Affairs and there has to be some rationalization of the respec­ tive roles.

As far as the further comment with respect to indi­ vidual performing groups or arts organizations and their artistic director of their boards, certainly that is a dilemma, I think, all boards of arts organizations go through whether how much leeway they give their artistic director in the areas of artistic direction and decision and how much they take onto themselves as a board. I know from my experience of being on boards that was always a point of contention between boards of directors and artistic directors. MRS.

HAMMOND: I was wondering, there was a rec ommendation that the Winnipeg Art Gallery be funded through the Manitoba Arts Council and then I noticed that the, I think, new Heritage Policy or I'm just not sure of the working group, were rec ommend­ ing that it come under that section. Has there been any decision on this or does everybody want the Art Gallery? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, there hasn't been any decision taken to change the relationship or the fund­ ing of the Winnipeg Art Gallery at the present time.

I'm interested in the honourable member's com ments because she's referred to a recom mendation that it be transferred to the Arts Council and I don't believe that's the position of the Manitoba Arts Council. I'm wondering if you are referring to that same report that was made to the Bayer Applebaum Commission. MRS. HAMMO ND: Probably from the Cultural Policy Review, I'm not sure. I think maybe it came out of that. 1915 MR. KOST YRA: Mr. Chairman, I was wrong. As I understand it, it is the position of the Manitoba Arts Council to have the Winnipeg Art Gallery transferred to its area.

In fact, I believe at one time it was under the Arts Council but, in any case, there's certainly been no decision made to change that relationship. In fact, there are funds set aside in this appropriation to pro­ vide operating grant assistance to the Art Gallery for this fiscal year, so it's obvious that this year there will be no change and we're not actively considering any other change at this time. MRS.

HAMMO ND: This may be getting out of this area a bit, but since we're on the Art Gallery, you were mentioning that the Art Gallery and what other group were looking at - in your opening statement you mentioned the Art Gallery and, I guess, the Museum of Man and Nature, was that it? MR. KOST YRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Museum of Man and Nature and the Winnipeg Art Gallery in con­ sultation with the department are working on a con­ servation program. There is some funding available through the Federal Government and we're having

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 negotiations between the various organizations at our department and the Federal Government with respect to a conservation program. MRS. HAMMOND: What exactly is a conservation program? MR. KOS TYRA: Mr.

Chairman, basically the conser­ vation program that's being developed is to allow the two major museums, the Art Gallery and the Museum of Man and Nature to preserve the artifacts that they have and also to, I think, more importantly provide outreach service to the many small museums that exist throughout the province so that they can have the benefit of a conservation program because, as the member is no doubt aware, the small museums throughout the province don't have the ability or the facilities to do that at the local level and they need outside assistance. MRS. HAMMOND: Mr.

Chairman, is the department following policy of the previous government, funding the Arts Council to, I believe it was 15 percent? MR. KOSTYRA: Well, the question wasn't clear. think I know what the honourable member is MRS. HAMMON D: . . . referring to. MR. KOSTYRA: . . . referring to. I don't believe that was the policy of the previous administration. I think it was an overall goal to increase the funding of the major performing Arts organizations, like the Win­ nipeg Symphony, the Ballet, to the 15-percent figure of operating budgets.

I think that issue is still being taken under consideration by the Manitoba Arts Council. I understand that the Manitoba Arts Council was looking at. with a view of not necessarily as a fixed figure, but with some flexibility to provide some incentives for the Arts organization with respect to their own fund raising and budget activities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River East. MR. PHIL EYLER (River East): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister co uld tell me if Cultural Grants is the line item under which funding is provided to the Museum of Man and Nature. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the support to the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature, with respect to its ongoing operating grant, is under this appropriation. MR. EYLER: Could you tell me how much the increase this year is over last year? MR. KOS TYRA: Mr. Chairman, the increase to the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature is $257,70 0, which is an increase of 12 percent. MR. EYLER: Does that include provision for salaries and wage agreements? MR. KOST YRA: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the grant does include both items referred to; however, there is pro­ visional support in the case if salary increases are higher than what may have been budgeted for, because the salaries for the museum are tied into salaries that are paid to civil servants working for the province through the government directly. MR. EYLER: Under the previous government there was provision for two for one funding grants for spe­ cial projects, whereby the province would contribute $2 for every $1 raised privately. Is this manner of funding being continued? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, that funding comes under the Acquisition and Construction

section and there is provision in the budget for Acq uisition and Construction of Physical Assets for the Museum of Man and Nature and there's been $220,000 set aside. The policy in the past has been that those funds were given to the Museum on the matching formula that the honourable member refers to. At the present time, we will be in discussions with the Museum with respect to their Capital Program and the ways that those funds would be given to them, whether or not they will be conditionalized, was in the past or under some other formula or no formula. MR.

EYLER: Does the Minister then anticipate that the funding is sufficient to maintain the museum operating at the same level of service and staffing as say six months or a year ago? MR. KOST YRA: Mr. Chairman, the operating grants with an increase of 12 percent provision for any addi­ tional salary increases would provide the museum with the necessary funds to operate at the same level of service as they did in the past year with the same staffing levels. 1916 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS.

HAMMOND: If the Manitoba Arts Council had, or has, or is starting a Student Aid Program, what programs are not included for bursaries under, I guess under the Student Aid, from the Department of Education? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, quite frankly, I don't know the answer to that. I'd have to take that under advisement and report back.

As I understand the program, the Student Aid Pro­ gram, the Arts Council is embarking on this to provide assistance for students that would attend arts, col­ leges or campuses that provide for training that doesn't exist in the Province of Manitoba, such as a conservatory or other such institution. How that ties in with the Department of Education, I don't know the answer to and I'd have to get that information for her. MRS. HAMMOND: Well I guess the point is, it doesn't tie in with the Department of Education and that's why the Manitoba Arts Council is having to step in.

Even programs, I think, that students in Manitoba tan get bursaries for, programs that aren't offered in Manitoba through the Department of Education and I'm wondering why the Arts programs would

be any different. MR. KOSTYRA: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, I have to indicate I don't know the programs under the Department of Education and all I can say is that I would endeavour to find out the answer to the ques­ tion and report back to the honourable member. MRS. HAMMOND: The other thing that the Arts Council is getting involved in, in fact, I think it said they hired or were going to hire a Visual Arts consul­ tant and due to the lack of opportunity of contempor­ ary artists in Manitoba to exhibit their work, the Win­ nipeg Art Gallery, I understand, allows for limited shows.

I wonder if they're going to be pushed a little further to hold shows for contemporary Manitoba artists. MR. KO STYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I agree with the comments that are made by the honourable member and in fact, as late as early this morning, I met with the Winnipeg Art Gallery staff and board representatives and expressed those same co ncerns to them. They indicated to us that they're attempting to do more of that in the future. MRS.

HAMMOND: Under the programs of Cultural Grants, I take it that the Minister has indicated that there hasn't been a change in the programs and gen­ erally the programs that were ongoing before are ongoing now as far as grants are co ncerned. MR. KOST YRA: Well, Mr. Chairman, there is no change in the areas of the major cultural grants. The only one area that we talked about was the Conserva­ tion Program. There are specific funds set aside for development of that program, but all the other major cultural organizations that receive grants in the past fiscal year are receiving grants in this fiscal year. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. CHARLOTTE OLE SON (Gladstone): Would this be the department under which there would be grants, for instance, bands travelling to other provin­ ces or competing in other provinces or choirs in that activity? MR. KOST YRA: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources did have, a number of years ago, a grant program of assistance to bands or groups travelling outside of the province, but the previous administration stopped that program in March of 1981.

There was no program in place for assistance for out of province travel for those type of groups and at present in these Estimates there isn't, though I could inform the honourable member that I have in the few months I have been in office seen many such requests for that type of assistance and have asked for review of this area for future years, because there seems to be some concern for those especially in the Youth Orchestra area that the lack of any kind of program of assistance for them to travel outside of the province is lessening the possibility of further development in that area by attending and performing in national com petition.

So, I am con- 27 April, 1982 cerned about that area but the previous program was stopped over a year ago and there's no provision in these Estimates for that kind of program. It is some­ thing that we will review overt he next year in anticipa­ tion of looking ahead to future years. MRS. OLE SON: Included in that program in which you, I take it, are reviewing, were there grants for bands travelling within Manitoba because that is very important as well? Perhaps they could travel more in Manitoba before they venture forth. MR. KOST YRA: Mr.

Chairperson, with respect to touring in the province, there are under the Lotteries Funds, grants, programs for tour hosting within the Province of Manitoba that such bands co uld be eligi­ ble for assistance through the communities that are sponsoring their con certs. So there is provision for that kind of program within the province. MRS. OLE SON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. HAMMOND: Yes, does the department give any funding to the International Peace Gardens, the music program? 1917 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, I am informed that the Manitoba Arts Council does provide some assistance to the music camp. MRS. HAMMOND: Yes, I don't know how the depart­ ment might be able to help in this, Mr.

Chairman, but evidently there is a problem that is developing because the school divisions in the areas starting before Labour Day in Canada, that the music camps have seven weeks which I guess the Band Program mainly is in June except there is one week in July, and the sports goes for four weeks and there is talk of pushing the sports back a week which will push the music camp back into June which will create a big problem for the Canadian students.

There are quite a number that participate in the Peace Gardens in the music camp there and they were, I think, looking for some help to see if there is anything that could be done through the government to see if we co uld keep at least one week of the music camp during July. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I was not aware of that particular problem until this moment and I would certainly direct staff in the department to meet with the administrators of the music camp to see what assistance we might be able to give to them to resolve that difficulty. MRS. HAMMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just found out about this today and they were asking if there was anything that could possibly be done. I guess, there's their travelling orchestra from the Peace Gardens and over 50 percent of the students are from Canada, so they will be touring Europe and it certainly has been an important area for Manitoba students, I know, to participate in and a wonderful

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 opportunity for the students to participate in. I know the St. James School Division gives bursaries of $115 each for students to go to the camp, in particular, with the Band Program. The other question I have is the Youth Orchestra. Are they funded at all by the department? That's the Manitoba Youth Orchestra - or they are going to change the name to Manitoba, it's probably Winnipeg. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, is the member refer­ ring to the Greater Winnipeg Schools Orchestra? MRS.

HAMMOND: If that's the orchestra - I am sorry, I don't have the name here, I remember they were just telling me that they were changing the name to the Manitoba - and they were just in Banff recently. Is that . . ? MR. KOSTYRA: The department does not provide any support to that orchestra. MRS. HAMMOND: Will this be one of the areas that the department will be looking at when they're look­ ing at funding Youth Orchestra?

These particular students, I know, the majority of them evidently are planning careers in music and I understand that they too could use some funding because of the expenses of everything going up as it is everywhere. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I understand that there is an association being developed at the various youth orchestras and I understand that some of them are having difficulties with respect to funding.

We talked previously about touring and certainly we would be prepared to meet with them as an associa­ tion or as individual orchestras to determine the extent of their problems and ways that we might in the future look at providing assistance. MRS. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I just want to briefly mention that the funding that is given by the depart­ ment for the Assiniboia International Band Festival certainly is put to good use.

There is a Band Program in Manitoba right now, I think that is second to none, and this year there were close to 200 performing groups with about 9,000 students involved and over 100 of the optimist members acting as volunteers. It's a wonderful spot for all the band programs that are in the schools and they have bands coming from all over. I just feel the support for the bands and the music involvement that Manitoba has. Our musical festivals when it came to singing were second to none, I think still is, and the Band Program now is I believe equal and very deserving of support. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, I certainly agree with the comments made by the Member for Kirkfield Park. I had the opportunity this year of attending a small part of the Annual Assiniboine Optimist Club Band Festival and it certainly was an excellent event and opportunity for Youth Orchestra development. I think at this point I would just like to recognize the work that the Assiniboine Optimist Club have been doing because I believe that band festival has now been on for some nine or ten years.

Really, the whole development of youth bands in the province is to the credit of the Optimist Club of Assi­ niboia who have developed this annual festival that has given the opportunity to perform and to develop. It certainly has assisted in the development of youth orchestras in the province, particularly the City of Winnipeg. MRS. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask questions about Manitoba Day. Does that come under Development? MR. CHAIRMAN: It doesn't matter. We can get all the questions out of the way and then we'll pass every­ thing, so you can just go ahead. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS.

HAMMOND: Okay. I wanted to know what is being planned for Manitoba Day this year, if there is anything being planned and what it is? MR. KOSTYRA: With respect to Manitoba Day, which is on May the 12th for those that don't know, we are planning to announce the winner of the search for the new Manitoba novelist here in the Legislative Build­ ing, coupled with a proclamation on Manitoba Day and a concert by the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra in the Legislative Buildings. We will be inviting all members of the Legislative Assembly and indeed oth­ ers to attend the functions at the building that day. MRS.

HAMMOND: Is there anything being planned in the Legislative Building for students, anything in particular here, or is there a program that will be carried on in the schools with regard to Manitoba Day? 1918 MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, there is nothing spe­ cifically planned with respect to students at the Legis­ lative Building on Manitoba Day, but the school divi­ sions throughout the province are certainly encour­ aged to celebrate and recognize Manitoba Day. As you are aware, it's not a holiday in the province as of yet, so students are at the school and school divisions are encouraged to recognize the day.

MRS. HAMMOND: The other program I wanted to ask about was the Summer Festival. Will there be a summer festival this year as there was last year? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there will be a Summer Festival Program. It will be an expanded program as compared to last year's with an emphasis on multicultural groups and events. MRS. HAMMOND: Will that be in conjunction with - what day is it, the Canada Heritage Festival that's being held here or will this be something separate? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairperson.

The Summer Festival Program will be tied together and piggy backed with the Canada Heritage Festival that's being held over about a two-week period in the communi­ ties of Brandon and Selkirk and tied in with the cen­ tennial celebrations in those two communities and in the City of Winnipeg. The Canadian Heritage Festival is a national festival

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 sponsored by the Federal Government that's held annually. This is the first time it is going to be held in the Province of Manitoba and the majority of the fund­ ing tor the Heritage Festival is provided by the Federal Government, in excess of $200,000, with some addi­ tional support by my department and also by the two communities of Brandon and Selkirk. MRS. HAMMOND: Will the Ballet be performing in the park this year, also? MR. KOSTY RA: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. The Ballet will be performing as part of the Summer Festival. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. KOVNATS: Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to bring a little honour to the junior high school band in my area, from the Beliveau Junior High School. They raised their money in travelling around the province and the country by selling oranges and they are pretty nice oranges. But we won't probably have the oppor­ tunity of eating those oranges too much longer inas­ much as the school board in my area are now consid­ ering closing the only English junior high school and making it into a French immersion program. We will probably lose the junior high school band.

Now, under Cultural Programs, there is an increase of over $1 million and I was kind of daydreaming at the very beginning, Mr. Minister, and maybe I missed it. Does this increase of $1 million have anything to do with the pavilions at Folklorama or does it follow that program? If it is an increase of $1 million, can the Honourable Minister tell us where the biggest increases are? I don't think I want to get right down to the nitty-gritty of every dollar and penny that is being spent on the program, but anything that is of a major increase considering that there's $1 million being spent more this year than last.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman. We have gone from oranges to $1 million. The area that you are referring to is the Cultural Grants to the major organi­ zations and I will just run through it line by line. There are only 10 lines. The Manitoba Centennial Corpora­ tion is receiving a grant of $1,134,90 0, which is an increase of $283,400.00. The Francophone Manito­ bain Cultural Centre is receiving a grant of $215,000, which is an increase of $44, 100.00. The Ukrainian Cultural and Educational Centre is receiving an grant of $100,800, which is an increase of $9,200.00.

The Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium in Brandon is receiving a grant of $51,500, which is an increase of only $2,500.00. As indicated before, the Museum of Man and Nature is receiving an operating grant of $2,339,400, which is an increase of $257, 700.00. The Winnipeg Art Gallery is receiving of $1,203, 100, which is an increase of $151, 600.00. There are funds set aside to implement the Conservation Program of $113,000, which is a new expenditure that did not exist last year.

The support to the Manitoba Arts Council is $1,203,000, which is an increase of $290,500 with an additional amount over and above that of $30,000 for the Audit Program that I referred to. There is a special grants program of $50,000, which is a decrease of $215,000 which was the amount that was expended last year. That makes up a total of $967,000.00, not quite a million. MR. KOVNATS: Is there any Acquisition and Con­ struction monies in this Cultural Grants Program, par­ ticularly for the Festival du Voyageur.

I know that there is a new building that is being built at this time or acquired or renovated and I know that the Provincial Government has given some monies. I was with the Honourable Minister when he gave them a cheque for, I think it was, $30,000 in the middle of last winter. The Federal Government did too and there I was standing, poor little boy from St. Boniface with nothing to give them, but the Honourable Minister was giving them 30 and the Honourable Bob Bockstael was giving them another $30,000 and there I was standing with nothing to hand over.

Is there any additional funds being given to the Festival du Voyageur this year for the building of a permanent home? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, there are no funds set aside in this department for assistance for the capital program of the Festival du Voyageur. I would have to take it as notice. There may well be some assistance through the Department of Economic Development in the Tourism Department, but I don't have that information. MR. KOVNATS: Okay, that's fair enough.

I am not trying to catch the Honourable Minister on questions like that, but I just, for my own satisfaction, would like to know because I support such a program. I would like to see them funded, not overly funded but to the full extent. Can the Honourable Minister advise me whether the Piney Blueberry Festival that occurs every year is receiving any funds under this Cultural Programs? 1919 MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I have got lists of grants that go about 14 pages. I could run through and record all of them into the record and as we do that we could see if there is assistance.

I do not believe that there has been any assistance paid to the Piney Blueberry Festival, but it is certainly of interest to me because I love blueberries and I like the community of Piney. As far as I know, there has not been any request for funds from the Piney Blueberry Festival. MR.

KOVNATS: To the Honourable Minister, it might sound a little bit humorous and it was meant to be just a little bit humorous, but there was some seriousness in it also, inasmuch as I enter a float into the Piney Blueberry Festival Parade every year and I think that there is some discrimination against myself and par­ ticularly because I represent the Town of Menisino. I think that they put me into the parade at a position where I am not considered to win the float and I think that there are prizes of $5.00 and $2.00 and $1.00 for the best floats in a row.

The Blueberry Festival is probably the last place in Manitoba where you do get fresh blueberries and it's an international festival inasmuch as people come across from United States to this Blueberry Festival. There is really nothing there, but we have a hell of a lot

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 of fun and we eat blueberry pies. It's once a year and I would think that, with the Honourable Minister giving increases and grants to a lot of different areas, at least there could be some small grant made to the Blueb­ erry Festival and I would see that the Honourable Minister received a whole blueberry pie in return. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman. I am very much inter­ ested in what the member has informed us about and I look forward to receiving an invitation to attend the Piney Blueberry Festival. I would like to see your float. I am sure it must be one of the better floats in the parade.

It seems to be with the price of blueberries that the Festival is probably self-supporting with the kind of funds they can raise, but if there is a request for assistance from that organization and if it fits the criteria of the various grant programs that exist within the party, it will certainly be considered for assistance. MR.

KOVNATS: I really was trying to see whether in fact that it would meet a criteria and would receive some assistance from the Provincial Government and, if it did, then I was going to ask for the Town of Menisino, which has a population of 15 or 20, and see if we could receive a grant for them and start some sort of Blueberry Festival at Menisino. That's really where the people in Piney get their blueberries, is at Menisino, which is about five or six miles away from Piney. I have made a little bit light about it, but these people in the southeast corner of the province are almost a forgotten group.

They really should receive some recognition and I think that was the intent on why I brought it up. It was on a humorous vein, but I would like to see the people in that southeast corner, the Piney area, the Sprague area, the Vita area, receive some recognition as being part of the Prov­ ince of Manitoba. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated that if there are requests for support from that area of the province and they fit with the criteria of grant support programs that exist in the department, they will cer­ tainly be considered.

It is certainly my intention as Minister and I know the staff of the department to treat all areas of the province, all communities of the pro­ vince, equally with respect to the kind of support that's provided by the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources. So, I would encourage them to come to us if they need assistance or want assis­ tance and if they fit in with the criteria of our grant programs. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (la Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Minister mentioned that there was a 27 percent inc rease to the funding to the French Cultural Centre. I wonder if he could explain why that increase. MR. KOSTYRA: It will just take me a minute to get back. I was still looking for Piney Blueberry Festival. The total operating budget for the CCFM rolls from $323, 100 to $382,900, which is an inc rease of $59,800 or 18.5 percent, of which the major increases for salar­ ies and benefits, building maintenance and adminis- !ration.

Included in this was a significant inc rease for the replacement of alarm systems in the building and for renovation, repairs and measures to maintain the building. The reason that the increase in the provin­ ce's assistance is at a higher percentage than the general operating budget of the organization is that revenue from sources other than the province are projected to rise at only 10.3 percent, which means that the province's grant is taking up some of that slack. MR.

BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether or not there isn't a 50-50 cost­ sharing agreement with the Federal Government with regards to the French Cultural Centre. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that the Federal Government pays for ongoing pro­ grams of the Centre,

whereas the province's contribu­ tion is for the operation of the building itself. MR. BANMAN: I think if the Minister will check that back a number of years ago when the operating was roughly at $120,000, there was an agreement reached with the Federal Government for some of the deficit retirements that were undertaken and that the Federal Government was going to be providing some funds.

I think that since this facility was cost-shared between the Federal and Provincial Government, the Federal Gove rnment definitely has a responsibility and it shouldn't be only the Manitoba taxpayers that bear the burden of the operating.

I guess my question is, seeing the problems that other groups such as the Manitoba Mennonite Museum out in Steinbach face in trying to operate that particular facility, which happens to be a fairly large tourist facility; I would just say to the Minister in light of a 27 percent inc rease by the province for one single facility like this, that he better understand when other groups come in and are also asking for increased funds.

Because one thing, I'm sure he's found out in his short tenure as Minister, when you're dealing with different groups, you have to have a policy which is relatively uniform that one group isn't singled out over the other one. I just say to him that a 27 percent increase to one particular group is a pretty large one and that I hope he would look very favourably on other groups that come forward at a time when they're also struggling.

I raise that matter here right now and tell the Minister that I'm sure that I know the group in my area who has been very agressive in the last little while in develop­ ing the Mennonite Museum out in Steinbach is look­ ing for some upg rading money also and I'm sure will be contacting him. In light of this 27 percent increase, I sure hope that he looks favourably on that group. 1920 Going to another matter, I wonder if the Minister has had any representation from the Festival du Voyageur group with regards to funding for a facility which would house a permanent casino? MR. KOSTYRA: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I want to com­ ment first on the Francophone Cultural Centre, the funds that are provided by the Federal Government tor program funds far exceed what is paid for by the Province of Manitoba with respect to operating funds. The Centre, as has been recognized with other major

cultural organizations in the appropriation that we're dealing with. have had ongoing funds for a number of years. With respect to the Mennonite Museum in Stein­ bach, I have indeed met with them already and have discussed their funding. There is, quite frankly, a problem with respect to funding museums and we're not in that area at the present time and I don't know if we want to open it up. but there exists a Museum Grant Program in the Province of Manitoba that has existed for a number of years and has maintained that at a maximum level of $2,000 per museum.

Unfortunately there has never been developed in the past years in the department any kind of assis­ tance program for the mid-size museum like the Steinbach Museum and that any assistance that's been provided to any of the mid-size museums have been on an ad hoe basis.

One of the things since becoming Minister that I've asked for is a review of our Museum Grants Program with the view of looking at some ongoing grant assistance to the mid-size muse­ ums like Steinbach and there are a number of others like the Marine Museum, the Western Aviation Museum anq others that fall into that range that certainly the Grant Program that has existed in the past of $2,0 00 does not provide them any meaningful assistance.

So, that is one area that I've certainly directed myself to look at for the near future because I too recognize the value of museums like the Steinbach Mennonite Museum and also recognize that there has to be some better support programs in place for that size museum. With respect to the question of the Festival du Voyageur building for a casino, I have not had any requests for assistance from the Festival du Voyageur for assistance from m y department for that facility. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 2. (a)

(1) Cultural Grants - the Member for LaVerendrye. MR.

BANMAN: Dealing just briefly with the Menno­ nite Village Museum, I guess one of the problems we have in dealing with a straight museum versus sort of a cultural museum is that unless I know the guidelines that the department operates under right now: unless there are certain activites that happen within that framework of that museum, the museum is classified as an ordinary museum and is not classified, I guess as a cultural I don't know if you'd call it a cultural museum or a cultural facility such as the Cultural Centre or the Ukranian Cultural Centre where a lot of the activities that are related to that particular culture are carried on.

I guess one of the problems that the people out in Steinbach face is that during the summer months. of course. many of the activities that happen there are based right around the culture of the Mennonite community. of the Manitoba Mennonites. who form a fairly large segment of the population here in Manitoba.

I would just say to the Minister. when he's deliberat­ ing on these things, you'd sort of hate to see them being forced into doing certain things to comply with the grant in order to get that grant, when I think they are doing an excellent job at the present time in deal­ ing with that I just hope that he takes that into consid­ eration. I know they are eligible for the $2.000. which 1921 1982 is a small amount compared to what the total activity of that place is.

But it is to a very large extent not only a meeting place, but a place where a lot of the children and the older people in the community reflect on their heritage and reflect on the things that have made this country and have added to the cultural mosaic of this particular province. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I share the views of the Member for La Verendrye. As I indicated, I have met with representatives from the Mennonite Museum; I have, prior to being the Minister of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources, been at a number of times at the museum.

But I think I should make it clear that comparing the museum in Steinbach to the Franco­ phone Centre isn't a correct comparison because the Centre was set up and is a facility owned by the Prov­ ince of Manitoba and run by a board appointed by the province;

whereas the Mennonite Museum is a com­ munity, in fact is a private museum insofar as it's an independent organization, with what I believe to be quite strong community support in that area, as is there are a number of other museums throughout the province. As I indicated, I don't think the member could expect me to be able in a few months to turn on a situation that existed for a number of years with respect to support for museums in the Province of Manitoba.

But I indicated that I think there has to be some change in the way that we support museums and I'm certainly committed to seeing some better level of support, particularly in the area of the mid­ size museums that have not had any kind of meaning­ ful grant program in place. With respect again to the museum and its cultural activities, there are other programs available in assis­ tance to cultural organizations in the province and indeed the member is aware that cultural organiza­ tions in the Steinbach area receive grants from the department for cultural activities.

One that I'm sure the member is well aware of is the Treble Teens that have received assistance in the past and will receive assistance with respect to cultural programs. MR. BANMAN: The point I'm trying to make and I guess to highlight it a little more; one of the problems the Minister will have and probably is having in deal­ ing with this particular department is that many of the grants are worked out on almost an eleventh hour basis. A group will come in and say that we have a fairly horrendous deficit and what happens is that if you don't give us the money, we're going to close down.

They hold the gun to the Minister's head, it doesn't matter which political group happens to be in office at that time. I guess my concern is, we have many groups out there that are conscientious, run­ ning fairly well. who don't employ that type of tactic and I would just ask the Minister to keep that in mind. I know that he'll be looking at that and experiencing some of that over the next little while but one always gets the feeling, and I know it's a tough policy to try and bring in. but it's very difficult to explain to people who are running a good shop themselves.

They almost get penalized for doing that because if they haven't got a deficit very often it's hard to get the funds. It's a problem we face, I guess. not only in this

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 department but in some others. but there always seem to be that eleventh-hour bailout where a group will come in and say, listen, we've got the deficit and you've got to help us out because if you don't help us out, we're going to close the doors.

It's a real problem and I just hope that when the Min ister is look ing at new policies, at people who do run a good tight ship and where there is a lot of volunteer input in these things, that they aren't overlooked in this and they don't get the feeling, and I know the feeling is there with some groups that man, if we just let her go and then go t.o the government and say, hey, we're going bankrupt, we're going to close the doors. there's enough public pressure that the governments have to cave in and give them money.

I know there's no easy solution to that but I just hope that some of these people who do show initiative and show that they're running a good ship and doing a service in the com­ munity, that is somehow taken into any policy that the Minister is going to develop. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr.

Chairman. those are the kind of things that we certainly are going to take into account and, I think. not only from the department's standpoint that we're going to look at better planning ahead with respect to the way we support various museums in the province. but I think there has to be some responsiblity on the part of the museums in the province.

There are some museums that go and take projects on without knowing whether or not they are going to get support from the department and then after they complete those projects, come to the department say­ ing we've now done this and we're now in deficit of $50,000 or $70,000 and they want the department and the government to bail them out. I think that some of those local organizations have to take some respon­ sibility with respect to their own planning and budget­ ing and the way they conduct their organizations.

I think I should just share with the commi ttee that the Mennonite Museum in Steinbach has received since 1972, $193,000 from the Province of Manitoba. MR. BANMAN: Yes. Mr. Chairman. and I think if the Min ister checks, it's almost all for Capital Grants. The operating they're doing themselves; a large part for the Windmill and most of the money was for operating.

I just say to him that you hate to lose that volunteer spirit that is out there right now and I just say again that hopefully one can recognize in-government pol­ icy, people who are doing a good job in developing it and are not doing very precisely the same thing that the Min ister has indicated because there's a tendency to move into that area to do something and then come to government because the government is put in the position of not being able to say no. That's an unfor­ tunate position because I don't think it lends itself to the direction that all of us want to see these things happen. MR.

KOSTYRA: Well, as I indicated, Mr. Chairman, I share those concerns but the member made a com­ ment that the assistance to the Mennonite Museum was in the area of Capital. My understanding is that most of the assistance in the last few years was with respect to deficit reduction after the Museum had run into a deficit position and had come to government for assistance and some was provided to help them with their deficit. MR.

BANMAN: I think if you'll check, it's basically for the - they ran into deficit because they constructed some bu ildings which have been paid off now and they didn't have to borrow any money to pay them off, so I know what the Minister is talking about. It's just a matter of developing these policies so they're equita­ ble for everybody. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a)

(1) Cultural Grants-pass; 2. (a)

(2) Cultural Development (

a) Salaries-pass; (2 )(

b) Other Expenditures-pass; 2. (3) (

a) Salaries­ pass. 2. (3) (

b) Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wel­ come a chance to talk about public libraries because that's one of the very important things that I've been involved in over the years.

I notice in the Annual Report which you tabled in the House a short time ago that it says on page 13: "Highlights of the year included the implementa­ tion of an improved funding formula for rural libraries and the initiation of Audio-Visual Services to provide talking books for the print handicapped and 16 mm films for patrons of rural public libraries." Also. it talks about operating grants to municipalities and estab­ lishment grants that had been increased. I'm wondering if you are procee ding to study this program and to possibly implement increases in the near future.

I'm sure we're all aware of the rising cost of books . I know from being a purchaser of books for school libraries that books we used to order for $3 are now somewhere in the neighbourhood of $12.00. So it is a very difficult matter for public libraries to not only pay staff but to do the very thing that they're there for. to supply books for their patrons. and I wonder what you have in mind for the future of rural Manitoba libraries. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. Mr. Chairperson. I share the concerns of the Member for Gladstone with respect to the area of the purchase of books .

The cost increases in that area have been substantial in the last number of years which has put strains on lib raries throughout the province. We plan to review the operating grant formula for public lib araries in the Province of Manitoba over this next summer. There are no increases provided in the grant formula this year outside of the government reviewing and dealing with the problem of the new census figures which would mean a reduction to some library boards, to some municipa lities, with respect to the grant program because of the decreas­ ing population in some areas of the province.

That's one particular area that we're going to be dealing with in the next short while and decid ing on how that situation will be dealt with. But with respect to the operating grant formula, it is remaining the same as it has in the last year for the present year. but we're 1922

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 going to be reviewing that over the summer. MRS. OLES ON: Are you also reviewing ways in which you could encourage municipalities to join regions that are already in existence? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I've had some discussions a few months back with the Manitoba Library Association who also are concerned or would like to see more libraries joining regional library sys­ tems and I would say directly to the question, yes, we are in favour of that happening and that department staff would work with the local libraries and regional libraries to accomplish that. MRS.

OLES ON: I'm sure that you're aware, Mr. Minis­ ter, over the years there have been a great number of studies made of public library services in Manitoba. I have in front of me at least four names of people that have done studies. There's a Mr. Park that did a study, and Mr. Hamlin; there's a Newson Report and David Steen has done a study.

I would hope that in your review and study of this library program that you don't fall .into the trap of asking for yet another large study, which will be filed, because, I think, we've studied it to the extent that we will now have to study the studies and I think instead of spending money in that direc­ tion, we should implement some of the recommenda­ tions that have been started and continue with the strides that the previous government had made in the changing of the grants.

I'm wondering if you are going to increase your grants to the Manitoba Library Association and I'm wondering also, about the Manitoba Library Trustees Association. Over the years I've worn several hats in this regard and the Manitoba Library Trustees Asso­ ciation, of which I'm currently a member, has a great deal of difficulty in inter-library meetings with other provinces, for instance, and in even holding their own annual meetings because of the expenses involved.

It often means that, especially with Canadian Library Association Conferences, a limited number of people, if any, can go to the meetings because of the costs involved. They are a week-long meeting and they are very expensive. I know small library boards, there's no way that they could take money from their funds to go to these and, at least, their trustee association dele­ gate should be able to be funded to go. MR. KOSTY RA: Mr. Chairman, with repect to the first comment or question, it's certainly not going to be my intention, as Minister, to launch any further major studies.

The review, that I was referring to, would be a review done by the department and I would hope to have consultation with the two respective associa­ tions and indeed individual libraries throughout the province for their views, rather than launching on any further major study. With respect to the question of assistance to the two organizations, there is going to be increases.

The assistance to both associations in the past year, I'm informed, was $1,000 each and we're going to allow increases in grants to those organizations to a maxi­ mum of $5,000 on a matching membership formula with them so they will have the possibility of signifi­ cant increases. 1923 MRS. OLESON: Something else I wanted to ask about in connection with public lib raries, the Capital Grants Program with lottery funds that has been in place, are you planning to continue that program? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. MRS.

OLES ON: There has been some discussion among people that I know in the field that since this was for capital and it was a 50-50 proposition, it was difficult for some libraries to even initiate a capital project that they could even pay half of. So, I under­ stand that these funds have not been fully expended in the past partly because of that reason. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairperson, there are problems with the Capital Grant Programs for libraries. Those funds come out of the Lotteries Funds and in the last fiscal year only 42,000 was spent under that program.

For this year, there is allocation of $208,000, which includes part of the carryover from the previous year, but that too is the other area that we'll be reviewing over the summer, both on the operating side and also on the Capital Grants side, because I am aware of the problems that the member is referring to. MRS. OL ESON: Also, Mr. Minister, can you give me an update on the status of the grant for the Brandon Centennial Library? MR. KOSTYRA: The Brandon Centennial Library and combined Arts Centre received a grant from the Prov­ ince of Manitoba of $800,000 and that has been paid to the City of Brandon.

In my recent travels to Brandon, they are working on concluding the provisions with the architect to start doing the renovations on the building and we anticipate those to start within the next few weeks or within the next few months and that they're planning on opening that centre sometime later this fall. MRS. OL ESON: Also in the annual report it was men­ tioned, and I recall them happening mind you I didn't have time to get to them - but there were seminars for rural librarians and rural library systems and rural library workers.

From all reports I have heard that they are very very useful and I'm hoping that you will continue that program. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, as the member indi­ cated, there have been seminars and I attended one last fall or earlier this past winter and it's intended to continue those seminars and to hold two such semin­ ars a year. The member raised earlier a comment about traveling costs and she may be aware that for those seminars there is assistance for travel to attend them. MRS. OL ESON: Yes, I'm aware of that.

Also, is there going to be an increase in the large print books avail­ able to readers with reading difficulties? I understand that they are circulated through Public Library Servi­ ces, am I correct? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman. There will be increases. There is only a set number of them pub-

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 lished and any book that is published is purchased by the Provincial Library Services. MRS. OLES ON: I know from just my limited expe­ rience with our one local library at home that those are a very important addition to the library. but of course, if you have them in the library, if you purchase them, they become a static collection because of their - I won't say limited readership, but it isn't everyone that wants them, of course, and so the best way, I think, to use them is to circulate them from one set place and I think in that way we can supply a better variety to our readers. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (3) (

b) Other Expenditures-pass; 2.(3) (

c) Grant Assistance-pass; 2. (

b) Provincial Archives, ( 1) Salaries-pass. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. HAMMOND: Have there been any changes in the staff man years in the Archives? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. Mr. Chairman. I had answered that question this afternoon in response to a question. but there's an increase of four staff man years in the archives for two additional assistant archivists and a clerical position and one conservation technician. MRS. HAMMOND: Has there been an increase for the Hudson Bay Company Archives? MR. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Chairman. MR.

HAMMOND: As far as the building -( Inter­ jection)- The Auditorium is what I was thinking of. The Archives Building, you're right, Have they carried on with the construction that was to go on in the Archives to upgrade it? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The Archives or the old Auditorium Building, I think there was a com­ ment made by the member that I am too young to have been in the old Auditorium, but I should just report that I recall being in the Auditorium in June of 1969 at the Leadership Convention of the New Democratic Party when Ed Schreyer was elected Leader of our party and went on to become Premier of the province. -( Interjection)- I don't go back that far. The additional work will be going on.

The other sections of the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources will be moving from the Archives Building into another location and then the further expansion will take place for the Archives. MRS. HAMMOND: Has the location been decided on? Will they be going into some of the historic build­ ings in the core area? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. Mr. Chairman. There are nego­ tiations taking place now with respect to lease in a building in the core area of Winnipeg and in the Herit­ age Winnipeg area of the core area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR.

KOVNATS: I was just going to ask, have the four positions that had been increased under Salaries been filled? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, they have not been filled, but are in the process of being filled at the present time. MR. KOVNATS: One other question and it is a per­ sonal question. Has the Honourable Minister ever been through the Provincial Archives? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman. I have been through part of the Archives, but I haven't had the time unfor­ tunately to take the kind of detailed tour that I would like to. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's 2. (b)(1). MR.

FILMON: Have they till got my papers in there? MR. KOSTYRA: You didn't leave them in my office, so they must be somewhere. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (b)

(1) Salaries-pass; 2. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 2.(

c) Historic Resources - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. HAMMOND: I understand that the government has designated The Pas Jail and I -( Interjection) - ls it the Court House? How much money has been allo­ cated for the renovation of the Jail, Court House? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, no funds have been allocated for the renovation of The Pas Court House. The building is owned by the province and is the responsibility of Government Services.

What will be happening or is in the process of taking place is a study to look at possible uses of the building and also to get estimates with respect to costs of renovating the building. MRS. HAMMOND: I believe a while ago when they were looking at upgrading the building, they were looking at in excess of $1 million. Is that figure still relevant? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of any figure to renovate The Pas Court House.

As far as I know, there has not been any study done as to the costs of renovating the building and that's the study that is going to be undertaken by the Department of Government Services now to determine what the costs of renovations will be to bring it up to today's standards. 1924 MRS. HAMMOND: I believe, probably if you maybe check with Government Services, that was the figure that was suggested before to bring it up to fire stan­ dards and I'm just wondering about designating build­ ings and not at the same time allocating any money to bring them up to any standards.

It's fine to designate buildings, but someone has to keep them up and I am just wondering what the policy is going to be of this

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 government then, as far as designating buildings and funding them. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, as the member is aware, there is by legislation, by statute, a Historic Site Advisory Board that exists and advises and makes recommendations to the Minister on the designation of historic sites in the Province of Mani­ toba. The Board has made three recommendations to me since I have become Minister. One was The Pas Court House, which we acted upon and there are two other recommendations pending, one being the Nee­ pawa Municipal Building and the Virden Auditorium.

What I am proceeding to do with respect to the latter two buildings is, I have communicated to the local councils in the area, both town and rural munic­ ipalities and in the two cases mentioned, also to the community committees that have been formed in those two areas to attempt to save those buildings and then discuss with them the recommendation from the Historic Sites Advisory Board, what could happen if the building is designated by the government as a historic site and also to get input from them as to what plans they have.

In the case of the Virden area, the community there, on its own initiative, and the concern of the Virden community and area has raised close to $78,000 in order to save that particular building. I will be discus­ sing that hopefully in the next few weeks with them. In the case of Neepawa, the two municipal councils there, the Town of Neepawa and the Rural Municipal­ ity, are both now discussing possible uses of that building because it is presently used as municipal offices for the two local governments.

They are look­ ing at the option of either rehabilitating that building and maintaining their offices there or building a new structure. MRS. HAMMOND: I wonder if there has been any discussion about the Playhouse Theatre. I under­ stand that the city has been trying to have the prov­ ince take this over for a number of years. They are in a position right now where it is losing something like $54,000 this year. What is happening with this particu­ lar building? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I have not had any discussions directly with the City of Winnipeg with respect to the Playhouse Theatre.

I know that it is one of the outstanding matters that has been before the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet and the official delegation of the City of Winnipeg for a number of months, in fact maybe longer. There is nothing new to report on that outside that it's a matter pending. I have not had any discussions or further representations from the city as Minister of Cultural Affairs and His­ toric Resources. MRS. HAMMOND: I wanted to ask just a couple of quick questions about the Heritage Working Group.

They recommended Manitoba Heritage to work at arm's length from the government to direct Heritage development and to disburse funds. Has the govern­ ment, Mr. Chairman. made any recommendations or have they come to grips with that report at all? 1925 MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, as I indicated in my opening statement, the government has not accepted that recommendation of the Heritage Working Group and we are still discussing the various aspects of that report, though it is my feeling that in the area of Heritage that the government should be the one that sets the policy in that area in and it ought not to be done by an arm's length agency. In fact, that same view is held by a number of the Heritage groups in the province including, I believe, the Association of Mani­ toba Museums who were of the opinion that recom­ mendation should not be acted upon by government. MRS.

HAMMOND: Was the recommendation in that report also to include the Archives under that same policy? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. MRS. HAMMOND: Does the Minister have the same feeling about the Archives? Myself, I find that a little strange that it would be separate from the government. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman. We haven't dealt with that specific recommendation in any detail, but I would share the same comments and the concern with respect to the Archives as the Member for Kirk­ field Park. MRS.

HAMMOND: Have there been any changes in direction as far as expenditures or in staff man years in the Historic Resources Department? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, there is an increase of 5.04 staff man years in the Historic Resources Sec­ tion; one for Administration, 2.21 for Architectural Conservation, .37 for Archeology and .5 for History Research. MRS. HAMMOND: The St. Norbert Heritage Park, how is that development coming along and what is the forecast for the opening of the park or some part of it? MR. KOSTYRA: That park is proceeding.

There is going to be further activity there this summer and it is hoped over the next three or four years, that buildings will be opened for use at that site. I indicated earlier with respect to two of the buildings. MRS. HAMMOND: That particular development, is it cost-shared with the Federal Government? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, portions of that park develop­ ment are shared through the ARC agreement with the Federal Government. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. HON. STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Can I per­ haps, Mr.

Chairman, interject one question to the Min­ ister about a piece of property in that same area, it is on what we used to call the old No. 14 Highway, that was purchased back in the '70s. As one drives by now, one sees evidence of construction of a house, proba­ bly an ersatz log cabin or some such thing. It's a piece of property that was bought, as I say I think sometime

in the early '70s from private owners on the river. I am trying to think of the name of the former owners and it is in a residential area. Why the government bought it, I have never been able to ascertain. What's happening on it? I candidly confess I was never able to ascertain when I was Premier. Why it was bought, I was never able to ascertain. I wonder if the Minister can offer any enlightenment now? I'm sorry I can't be more defini­ tive as to a description. MR. KOSTYRA: Is that the Moody property? MR. LYON: The Moody property, yes. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

That is 78 Turn­ bull Drive, which is part of the ARC program and that is the two buildings that I referred to earlier, the Bohemier House and the Maison Turenne. MR. LYON: Are located on that? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. LYON: That's very interesting. Has anyone been able ever to arrive at a reason for the purchase of that particular piece of property which was residential? What aspect of the public interest was served by the purchase of that property? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, I am informed that was developed as part of the ARC agreement and the significance of that piece of property is that it is at the confluence of the LaSalle and the Red River and that it was part of the overall ARC agreement for the Red River Corridor. MR. LYON: When did the ARC agreement actually start? When was it first propounded as a Federal­ Provincial program? MR. KOSTYRA: I am prepared to get into that. Unfor­ tunately, I don't have all the details because that agreement directly comes under the Urban Affairs and that is where that line is.

The Department of His­ toric Resources delivers, on behalf of the ARC author­ ity, some of the programs and that's the couple we are dealing with. I think it was 1977, when it was signed, and then they went through a process, as I under­ stand it, of consultation with various groups and formed a development plan which was approved just last September, I believe. Work is now proceeding on the basis of that development plan which was approved by the two levels of government. It was approved by the previous government. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I rather have the impres­ sion and it's only an impression that property was bought some time before the ARC agreement was in common parlance or before it was really something that the government was involved in. What I am really trying to get back to is whether or not this property was bought for the purpose of the ARC agreement or what was it that stimulated those in office in those days to buy the property, other than the fact that there was a For Sale sign on it and government apparently 1982 had lots of money in those days and bought it? MR.

KOSTYRA: The Leader of the Opposition is really trying to take me back into history. I am informed that the property was purchased in 1974, in anticipation of the ARC agreement because, appar­ ently again I'm informed, that the ARC agreement was being developed at that point in time. I could try to get a more detailed response. MR. LYON: I appreciate that much light being shed on it. As I say, I was relatively unsuccessful, even as Premier, in being able to find out anything about it. MR. KOSTYRA: You expect me as Minister to do better? MR.

LYON: Be under no misunderstanding as to the powers of the Premier's Office to get to certain facts. I see a large, rather heavy, gate on the property. In fact, I went to the trouble once of driving in there one day when I say the gate providentially open and could find neither man nor beast who could tell me what was going on and it just looked to be nothing. Then all of a sudden, as I say, there appeared this log cabin, which one can see as one drives south towards the Flood­ way, which people in that part of the world do, at this time of year.

I saw it not too long ago and wondered now what's going on in this strange piece of property that the government bought. MR. KOSTYRA: Well you've certainly got my inter­ ests. I'm going to have to get down there as soon as possible to have a first hand look at it. MR. l YON: Now I've found an ally. MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on 2. (c)

(1) MR. LYON: I'll look forward to the enlightenment that you can provide. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (c)

(1) Salaries the Member for Ki rkfield Park. MR. HAMMOND: Yes, I just wanted to ask about the former Brandon Correctional Institute, what stage is it at? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. 1926 MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, with respect to that facility, we just received, or I just received last week the study that was done, commissioned by the pre­ vious government through the Department of Gov­ ernment Services, on the costs of rehabilitating that building and I haven't had a chance to review that.

Once I do, then we would be meeting with the City of Brandon and sharing that information and the local historical societies in Brandon, who have indicated interest in having that building preserved. I can attempt to get a more detailed answer once we've had a chance to study the report, but that's where it sits at the present time and once that informa­ tion is available, we'll be sharing it with the City of Brandon and the Historical Society in Brandon.

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 MRS. HAMMOND: What are the costs? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I believe it was in the range of $4,000 or $5,000. I can attempt to get a detailed response on that. MRS. HAMMOND: And this was to be used as a museum in Brandon? MR. KOSTYRA: The purpose of this study by Gov­ ernment Services was to ascertain whether or not, as I understand it, that the building could be rehabilitated and at what cost.

In other words, determining whether or not the structure was sound of the building to facilitate rehabilitation and the study, as I understand it, is to determine that it is feasible and that the costs of rehabilitating and bringing it up to today's stand­ ards, with respect to fire and building codes, would be somewhere in the range of $400,000 or $500,000.00. The study was not done to determine actual use.

There was suggestions, as I understand it, over the past few years from the City of Brandon and I believe the Historical Society in the Brandon area, to look at using that building as a museum, but no decision has been made with respect to whether or not the building will be rehabilitated or what use may be made of the building. MRS. HAMMOND: Did the Historic Sites Advisory Board recommend it as a designated site? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, that was done some time ago. MRS.

HAMMOND: How then do you judge between recommending this building in Brandon, where you have got some costs. and designating the Jail in The Pas, where you haven't got costs. What is the differ­ ence between the government's policy between the two sites? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman. with respect to The Pas. there was recommendations and requests from the Town Council in The Pas to designate it as a historic site and The Pas Historical Society.

There hasn't been any such requests from the City of Brandon at this point and that's part of the reason that we're going to be meeting with them to see what their views are and what their thoughts are, on that building. MRS. HAMMOND: Well is the Brandon Correctional Institute it's a government building, isn't it? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. MRS. HAMMOND: Well then if the City of Brandon decides that it would like to have it designated, then who is going to pay the cost, if that's going to be the cr iteria. to have it designated. MR.

KOSTYRA: Well to have a building designated does not necessarily mean that it has to be totally rehabilitated. It can be just maintained in that state for viewing or it could be rehabilitated for possible uses. In The Pas area there was, as I indicated, a motion of the Town Council to have that building designated and preserved and maintained. and a great deal of community interests. both from the Town of The Pas and The Pas Historical Society, looking for possible future use of the building.

In the case of the Brandon facility, there hasn't been at this point, that I'm aware of, that same level of interest and commitment from eitherthe City Council or the Historical Society. MRS. HAMMOND: Yes. I was under the imp ression that you designated the building in The Pas because you didn't want to see it deteriorate, or the govern­ ment didn't want to see it deteriorate. So if you've saying that you can designate a building and then just leave it. what then happens to the building without some upkeep? MR. KOSTYRA: Well. Mr. Chairman, there's various things that can happen.

One, the building can be maintained in its present state, so that there's no further deterioration and it's maintained so that it won't deteriorate any further, or the building could be upgraded. either for possible use or to be maintained without it being utilized as a functional building. There's many things that could happen. 1927 MRS. HAMMOND: Yes, when you say that the build­ ing could be maintained, what does that entail? As the Brandon Correctional Institute is vacant and I imagine it's mothballed, I don't know if they're heating it; what costs will be entailed then to maintain it? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know the actual costs, but they aren't significant to maintain a building. It means keeping some low level of heat in the building, so there isn't deterioration of the basic structure because if a building does not have any heat, then the structure itself will be damaged through frost.

I could get the actual cost, but I'm of the opinion that they're not significant to maintain a basic level of heat and the building can be. as the member referred to, mothballed for future use. because what could happen if the building isn't maintained is that it dete­ rioriates beyond the point of any possibility of repair, or the possibility of even maintaining that it could be in danger of collapse.

An example of that is the Empire Hotel. which we had to take, in conjunction with the City and Great West Life, action on this past winter in order to save the facade because the building was in danger of collapsing if there was a heavy snow fall and the weight on the roof would have caused the whole building to collapse and it would have been lost com­ pletely. There was a decision and agreement between Great West Life, the province and the City to remove the facade and save that as a historic site in itself. MRS.

HAMMOND: Yes, are there any other sites like the Brandon Correctional Institute and The Pas Jail that are sitting, waiting to be designated, if a council, or if there is some clamoring for it in the community? MR. KOSTYRA: The Historic Sites Advisory Board has made recommendations on the three that you mentioned. Also the Red River House Museum. which

is Captain Kennedy's house on River Road out on the way to Lock port; Display Building No. 2 in Brandon, which I believe is on the fairgrounds; the Eastern Judicial Jail which is just a stone throw from this building, it's referred to as the Vaughan Street Jail; the church residence guesthouse and Trappist Monas­ tery in St. Norbert. Those are the seven buildings that have been recommended by the Historic Sites Advi­ sory Board for possible designation. MR S. HA MMOND : I want to ask just one question.

Will the Minister be able to come up with any sort of figures on the amount of money, the cost that it would take to not only just designate because that is easy enough to do, but to renovate and put these buildings in some sort of order? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I already indi­ cated with respect to the Brandon facility that it was in the area of $400,000 or $500,000 <'Ind I will give you those actual figures if I can just have a chance to review the report. With respect to the other buildings, I am not aware that any studies have been done in the cost of rehabilitating them.

I can get for the member the average or the costs of maintaining a building so that further deterioration doesn't take place, such as the case as with The Pas. It is very difficult, because unless an actual study is done, you don't know those costs. You can just take wild guesses and again there are various levels. In the case of the Brandon, I believe the report indicates that the large part of the building can be rehabilitated and the costs are associated with that, and one portion of the building is just to be shut off and mothballed.

So there are various levels depending on what one might want to do with the building. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Gladstone. MR S. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, I am wondering do you have a set criteria that you use in designating a building. Do you just go by the age and type of building, I am curious to know just what is the criteria for designating a building? MR . CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR.

KOSTYRA: Well, The Historic Sites and Ob jects Act has a mandate for the Historic Sites Advisory Board and that gives them the power to make recom­ mendations to the Minister for designation of build­ ings which are of provincial historic significance. The board gets many recommendations, in fact, I believe they have, not recommendations, but requests for 20 or 30 such designations and they do a study as to whether or not that particular building is of provincial historic significance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. DON SCOTT (lnk ster): Thank you, Mr. Chair­ man.

There is one building that I have not heard men­ tioned yet tonight and certainly sits out as almost a crown jewel on Portage Avenue and that is the Bank of Nova Scotia Building. I am wondering what the status of that building is at this time, if the Department 1962 of Cultural Affairs has had negotiations both with the bank and with the city. I understand that there have been for quite some time calls for the building to be designated as a historic site, that probably the finest example of that kind of architecture in the province perhaps outside this building itself.

I'm just wonder­ ing, what has been done and what the prospects of that building are for the future? MR. CHAIR MAN: Mr. Minister. MR . KOSTYRA : That particular building has not been designated by the province. I should also make the members of the committee aware that the City of Winnipeg has the right to designate buildings and they have a means of designating buildings. I believe it's three categories of historic significance, and the City of Winnipeg has designated a number of build­ ings into the three levels of designation.

With respect to that particular building, the city has not designated as a historic site under the City of Winnipeg by-laws, but they do have agreement from the bank that nothing will happen to that building without discus­ sions with the city and giving the city at that time the opportunity of designating it. MR. SCOTT: Has the city, Mr. Minister, been involved with the department in doing any kind of a historical analysis of the building to evaluate its significance from a historical perspective? MR.

KOSTYRA: Yes, the department is part of the Historic Sites Committee of the City of Winnipeg and it has been involved to that extent with that particular building. MR. SCOTT: Could you perhaps give us an indica­ tion of the preliminary results or the preliminary recommendations from the department? MR. KOS TYRA: Mr. Chairman, I can't give any detailed response to that. I would have to inquire directly of the city. As I indicated earlier, it has not been designated by the city, but there is agreement between the city and the bank that nothing will happen.

There will be no development of that building or that site by the bank without prior discussions with the City of Winnipeg. MR. SCOTT: Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( c)

(1) Salaries-pass; 2. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. Resolution No. 45 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exc eeding $10,805,900 for Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources for Cultural and Heritage Programs for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March. 1983- pass. We'll move on to No. 3. Acquisition/Constructions 1926 of Physical Assets the Member for Kirkfield Park. MR S. HAM MOND: I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister answered the questions from the Member for Assiniboia earlier in the day. Am I correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: That's right.

Tuesday, 27 April, 1982 Mr. Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, he asked some gen­ eral questions with respect to this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 46 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $942,500 for Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources for Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1983 -pass. Now we'll go on to the Minister's Salary. 1. (

a) Minis­ ter's Salary - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. HAMMOND: I just want to briefly mention that I know that the Department of Cultural Affairs and His­ torical Resources gets into its really busy season right now and that the staff, when coming into the summer, works double time - the Cultural Affairs Branch and the Historic Sites I know that you'll appreciate the kind of work that your staff will perform for you. I've seen how they work and I want to commend them on that I just have one little item that I forgot to mention and it's the Sturgeon Creek Bridge for the mural, historic mural.

I'm just wondering if the Minister had made any decision on that particular item. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I'm glad to hear the comments from the Member for Kirk­ field Park with respect to the staff.

I would just add that I haven't had the opportunity of seeing the staff working throughout the summer months, but I can certainly inform her that the time I' ve seen the staff working through the winter months for me, I certainly appreciate the efforts that they're doing on behalf of the Government of Manitoba and the people of Mani­ toba in the area of Cultural Resources, Cultural Affairs and Historic Sites.

With respect to the Sturgeon Creek Bridge, I did receive a request for assistance in that project and I informed Councillor Eadie that there was no funds available in this year's Estimates for any work there but it would be taken under consideration for next year's Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 44,

Be it Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2, 197,500 for Cultural A flairs and Histori­ cal Resources for general administration for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1983-pass. This concludes our committee on Cultural Affairs. Committee rise SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flan): The committee will come to order. We are continuing with the Manitoba Health Services Commission, the Medi­ cal Program. The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJA RDINS (St. Bonif ace): Mr. Chairman.

I have been able to put together more information on one of the questions that I didn't have enough information before the dinner hour and I'd like to answer this at this time. It's a question of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry and I'm talking now about the position in the rural area especially. It is difficult to attract new graduates who would like to work in a group practice. Nevertheless, there is a full-time chairman now of the Standing Committee on Medical Manpower that's devoting a great deal of time on this problem, that's Dr. George Johnson has assumed that responsibility.

He will be visiting at least two of the above mentioned area over the next two weeks and that is Riverton, Eriksdale, Ethelbert, Gil­ bert Plains and Cartwright, where they are trying to recruit a doctor. He will visit at least two of the above mentioned areas within the next two weeks to discuss what can be done to attract a physician. Also, the MMA have been charged with operating a Physician Placement Service Bureau, and have adver­ tised widely for the past year, both in Canada and abroad. The MMA has achieved some success in placement.

With regard to the supply of specialists, there is no longer any crisis in connection with the number of available anaesthesists, both in rural and urban Mani­ toba through an adjustment last year, the Manitoba Health Services Commission fee

schedule and short­ term six month Anaesthetic Training Program. With respect to opthamologists, an additional three or four could be used, although any additional could have to be staged, because extra resources in hospi­ tals would be required. With regard to psychiatry, the shortage is mainly in institutions, as we've covered already, such as the Brandon and Selkirk Centres where about eight to 10 could be used. The problem is mainly due to the number of present psychiatrists who will soon be retiring.

This is being addressed vigorously by the Standing Committee on Medical Manpower; also with regard to child and adolescent psychiatry, upward of five or six could be used. 1929 With respect to Laboratory Medicine, pathologists, there is also an aging problem in within the next two years the province could probably use eight to ten. While there is a sufficient supply of diagnostic radiol­ ogists, the province could probably two or three the­ rapeutic radiotherapists. In addition to the above, six to eight public health physicians could be accommo­ dated over the next five years.

The Standing Committee on Medical Manpower are very cognizant of the problem and is actively address­ ing the issue of encoura!)ing doctors to practice in areas of the province designated as being medically underserviced and is also addressing the problems of any shortage of specialists. The Committee also works very closely with the Directors of the Residency Training Programs in our teaching hospitals.

From the foregoing, it will be noted that more is presently being done than ever before to develop measures which will attract Canadian graduates into those specialties which are in short supply as well as the appropriate distribution of physicians geographi­ cally. This is not only being done locally, but also nationally in co-operation with the Associated Medi­ cal Colleges of Canada. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

MR. L. R. (Bu

d) SHERMAN: I thank the Minister for that information, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask him a question for information first. before I ask a question about anaesthesiology. I would like to deal with the question of ca rdiovascular thoracic surgery in Winnipeg teaching hospitals. My question to the Minister at this juncture, Mr. Chairman, is whether that should be dealt with under the Hospital Se rvices Program or, since it involves medical personnel and recruitment and establishment of medical personnel, he would prefer to discuss it under Medical Services? It doesn't matter to me. MR.

DE SJA RDI NS: It doesn't matter to either. We could look at it now. Actually, it comes under Hospi­ tals, because some of the decisions that cause the problems, if any, were taken by boards of hospitals, but I don't mind. We can discuss it here; it doesn't matter. MR. SHERMAN: I would like to discuss it at some juncture, Mr. Chairman, and ce rtainly we have still got the Hospital Program and Personal Care Program to come and the Minister's entire capital program. Per­ haps, we could take a look at the ca rdiovascular surgery question here, under this line of the Estimates. Mr.

Chairman, the community learned in the December-January period that adult cardiac surgery had been resumed at the Health Sciences Centre and that capability for performing such surgery was being established by the Health Sciences Centre board and administration. The question as to the justification and authorization for same was subsequently addressed briefly in question and answer exchanges between the Minister and myself during Question Period one day after the curr ent Session of the Legis­ lature got under way, but naturally, any detailed examination of it was not possible in Question Period.

I know the Minister has been expecting to discuss it with the committee in the Estimates process. I am very concerned, Mr. Chairman, that decisions have been made arbitrarily by the Health Sciences Centre administration and board which threaten to compromise the accountability and the responsibility of the government of the day.

I am just as concerned for the government of an NOP persuasion as I was for the government of a Progressive Conservative per­ suasion or/and for the government of any political stripe, because in the final analysis we are talking about the people of Manitoba, the taxpayers of Mani­ toba and the resources and capability of this province to cope with the medical and health challenges that face us and the wise and prudent application of avail­ able resources over a whole spectrum of programs and among a wide range of competing and very legit­ imate, but oftentimes unaffordable ambitions.

What has happened, Sir, is that without the author­ ity of the previous Minister of Health and, I am satis­ fied, without the authority of the present Minister of Health and without the authority of the Manitoba Health Services Commission under the previous administration and, I am satisfied, without the author­ ity of the Manitoba Health Services Commission under the present administration, a highly sophisti­ cated, highly technical and potentially very expensive service has been established or re-established, re- 1982 introduced, at the Health Sciences Centre.

The 57 elected members of this Legislature have never passed an opinion on it. Therefore, the people of Manitoba have never passed an opinion on it and yet we are in a situation, where because of the emotionalism asso­ ciated with various medical and health services and in this case the particular emotionalism associated with cardiac surgery, open heart surgery, it becomes extremely difficult for a responsible government to make its point and to make its case to the public without appearing somehow to be on the side of the devil. In other words, to be opposed to open heart surgery.

Nobody in this Committee, whether NOP or Pro­ gressive Conservative, is opposed to open heart surgery. Everybody in this Committee, whether NOP or Progressive Conservative, believes that insofar as one million Manitobans can afford it, we require, we need and we deserve an effective quality ca rdiovascu­ lar surgical capability in this province and for obvious reasons in the capital city, the largest urban centre of the province, namely Winnipeg. We have one, Sir. You don't need reminding, Mr. Chairman, nor does anybody in this Committee that we have, under Dr. Morley Cohen and Associates at St.

Boniface General Hospital, one of the finest car­ diac surgical units and capabilities in North America. Now it would be very nice if every place in Canada and every community in North America could have car­ diac surgery capability, cancer capability, bone mar­ row transplant capability, various sophisticated and technical capabilities covering the whole range of modern day medical procedures.

But everybody in this Committee knows and I'm sure that most Man­ itobans appreciate that that is impractical and it's unaffordable - and that one takes one's resources and particularly in an area like health care which is so demanding of physical, fiscal and mental resources, distributes them as equitably, as sensibly and as pru­ dently as possible. 1930 It may never have been established in fact, but it certainly has been accepted by two previous Mani­ toba administrations, the Lyon administration and the Schreyer administration.

In as far as I know, it's accepted by the current administration, the Pawley administration, that in a province of one million peo­ ple, if you have got a high quality adult ca rdiac surgery capability and you have got a high quality cancer research and treatment capability, you are doing very well by your constituents and by North Ame rican standards. To look to going beyond that to establishing two or three in those highly specialized, sophisticated and expensive fields is impractical because you wind up robbing Peter to pay Paul.

You wind up depriving some other area of health care services of the necessary dollars and the necessary energy and the necessary mental capacity and input. So, we have operated in some years in this province on the theory that we seem to be able to address the needs of Manitobans in these two specially areas rather well and perhaps even enviably, by having our major adult ca rdiac surgery capability at one teaching hospital, tile Health Sciences Centre, and our major cancer treatment and research capability at the other teaching hospital, St. Boniface General Hospital.

Now, Sir, we have got. because of particular am bi-

lions, which I don't fault, I think it's only natural. cer­ tainly it's human nature. and I think it's only natural for any major tertiary care teaching hospital like the Health Sciences Centre to want to have additional sophisticated capabilities So.

I'm not faulting it in terms of logical human natural ambition. but we've got. now. the Health Sciences Centre determined that in order to maintain its status and its influence and its level of prestige. all of which are highly desirable as a major North American tertiary care centre. teaching centre and research centre, the position articulated by its board and by its administration, that it's got to have adult cardiac surgical capabi lity. There was adult cardiac surgery performed at the Health Sciences Centre many years ago, before the exce llent unit at St.

Boniface had really achieved the extent of its current capabi lities and achieved the North American reputation that it enjoys, but that was a considerable number of years ago. To my knowl­ edge. Mr. Chairman. there has not been adult cardiac surgery performed at the Health