Manitoba Hansard — 22 October 1990 (Sitting 8A, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-8a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth II Published und8r the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. SA • 1 :30 p. m., MONDAY, OCTOBER 22, 1990 Printed by the Office of the 0-Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslature Members, Constituencies and Polltlcal Afflllatlon NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward , Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNES$, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsiand Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NOP NOP Liberal Liberal NOP Liberal NOP PC PC PC PC NOP NOP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NOP NOP PC PC NOP Liberal PC NOP PC NOP Liberal NDP PC NOP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NOP PC PC NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, October 22, 1990 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minister of Agrlculture): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a few reports. The first one is the 1988-89 Annual Report of the Department of Agriculture.

Second, I would like to table the 1988-89 Annual Report of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation; the 1988-89 Annual Report of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation; the 1988-89 Annual Report of the Manitoba Mediation Board; the 1988-89 Milk Prices Review Commission Annual Report; 1988-89 Annual Report to Farm Lands Ownership Board; the Report of the Agricultural Producers' Organization Certification Agency for 1989; the 1988-89 Annual Report of the Manitoba Beef Commission; and as a courtesy, I am going to table the 1989 Twenty-Fifth Annual Report of the Manitoba Pork Est. and its 36th Annual Progress Review for the Faculty of Agriculture at the University of Manitoba for 1989.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Annual Report of the Department of Natural Resources 1988-89. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BILL 17-THE PRIVATE ACTS REPEALACT Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that leave be given to introduce Bill 17, The Private Acts Repeal Act;

Loi sur !'abrogation de lois d'interet prive, and that the same be now received and read the first time. Motion agreed to. BILL 18-THE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT (RE-ENACTED STATUTES) ACT Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that leave be given to introduce Bill 18, The Statute Law Amendment (Re-enacted Statutes) Act; Lois de 1990 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives (Lois readoptees), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Mr. Jerry Wiggins, M.P. , Chairman of the Select Committee on Agriculture , and seven other Members of the British Parliament who also sit on this committee. On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Also with us this afternoon, in the public gallery we have from the Assiniboine Community College, 20 adult students. They are under the direction of Bob Crighton. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. *

(1335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Hazardous Waste Disposal Regulations Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Premier. Some 16 or 17 months ago we experienced a massive explosion in the City of Winnipeg at Solvit, where residents of the city were alarmed to see the size and the reverberations of an explosion. Luckily nobody was hurt.

258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 A number of questions were raised out of the Fire Commissioner's Report, out of other evidence. The Government has a report that states that 24 companies out of 30 were not in compliance with the Government's own regulations and action has to be taken. My question to the Premier is: Why has the Government not taken any action on the report it has received, and when will the Premier finally move in and bring in the regulations necessary to protect Manitobans in terms of the disposal of hazardous waste in our province? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, because the question is really one that is in the realm of the Minister of Environment, and I know that he has been working on it, I will refer that question to the Minister of Environment. Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): As a result of the occurrences from the Solvit explosion, the three departments of the Government that were concerned have put together interim working arrangements whereby any of the occurrences that may have fallen between the cracks in the departments in the past, every effort will be made to ensure that is co-ordinated through all three departments, and anything that may have been previously overlooked between the three departments will now be carefully screened. Mr. Doer: This is exactly the reason we called for a public inquiry on this issue.

The Premier has received -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker, we were raising this question before the Solvit explosion. If you want to talk to the residents of north St. Boniface, you will find that it is not so political when they are worried about their own health and safety. My question to the Premier is: Given the fact that he changed the regulations backwards-he, the Premier, changed the regulations backwards without any report and any advice-why is he not acting on the interdepartmental recommendations of Wally Fox-Decent given to him and his Government on April 26, 1990? Why is he not acting? Mr.

Fllmon: At least we do not table false pictures, as the Leader of the Opposition does. That again is a matter that ought to properly be directed to the Minister of Environment. Once again I will ask him, since he has been in touch with it, working on this, to respond to the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Cummings: When the matter was referred to this working committee, it was specifically to work with the Workplace Safety and Health people with the safety of the workers that were involved to make sure that The Environment Act and all the relevant regulating authorities were properly respected.

We have that report, and we will be working on dealing with the best way that it can be implemented for the safety of all involved. •

(1340) Mr. Doer: The Government has had the report for six months. My question to the Premier is: Why has he sat on this report? Why has he not made it public? Why has he not tabled the strategy of the Government to deal with the situation? Why are we putting citizens at risk? Why is the Government not dealing with the very important health and safety items that were identified in the report that his Government commissioned some six months ago? Mr. Fllmon: There are about seven or eight questions there.

I will remind the Leader of the Opposition that there were often reports that were presented to his Government when he was a Member of the NDP administration that preceded, and they took six years and did not act on them-not six months, but six years. Mr. Speaker, again, I will ask the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) to respond to that question. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, I realize that it is the Government's decision as to who answers questions, but I do not believe it has been standard practice in this House for the Premier to stand, make some comments, which I feel very debatable and some would call them cheap shots, but let us be magnanimous and call them debatable, then sit down and ask a Minister to answer a question. One Minister, Mr. Speaker, should answer questions, and one Minister only. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order? Mr. Fllmon: The same point of order.

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 259 Mr. Speaker: The Honourable First Minister , on the same point of order. Mr. Fllmon: If the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) persis ts in playing gam es and asking questions of the Premier which ought to be directed properly to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), who is the operative Minister, then they will get this kind of answer. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have recognized the Honourable First Minister to respond to the question. The Honourable First Minister has. Seven Oaks Hospltal Cataract Surgery Safety Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St.

Johns): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health . We on this side of the House are very concerned about a potentially dangerous situation at the Seven Oaks Hospital. As the Minister should know, there has been a change in policy such that anesthesiology stand-by coverage is no longer required for every patient undergoing cataract surgery. Many of these patients are elderly and, because of their health status, at some risk to begin with.

I want to ask the Minister of Health , since being informed about this situation at least as early as September 20, has he taken any action to redress the situation and work out solutions to the problem of lack of anesthesiologists other than putting the lives and health of patients at risk? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the backup for anesthesiology for those patients requiring cataract surgery, wherein there is only administration of local anesthetic and no backup is required, those procedures are done on an out-patient basis.

I think my honourable friend would appreciate that no backup is required because there is no administration of intravenous anesthetic material. However, in those instances where intravenous anesthetic material is required, it is my understanding that they have made appropriate arrangements so that those operations are only undertaken at such times when backup is available. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Johns, with her supplementary question. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Yes, I wantt o ask the Minister, in light of those comments, why it has been the case over the past couple of months that he has known about this situation, that operations have taken place where stand-by anesthesiology coverage was not available and where there indeed were complications that could have resulted in very serious ramifications for the health of that patient, what is this Minister doing to ensure that no lives are at risk, that no patient safety is in question, by ensuring that full-time, stand-by anesthesiology coverage is always there for patients undergoing any kind of cataract surgery?

Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend made a number of comments in her

preamble which might cause concern to those patients who use the very fine ophthalmology program at Seven Oaks centre. Mr. Speaker, my information is, as of the 17th of October there are precautions and procedures put in place so that those patients who require intravenous, the administration of anesthetic materials, that there is the routine and regularized backup of anesthe siology. Those patients who are in on an out-patient basis and require only local freezing, there is not to date, nor has there been, the backup necessary. That is the whole purpose behind out-patient surgery, to do it more effectively, more efficiently and with greater patient safety. *

(1345) Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, every one of those back-up procedures has been questioned by the nurses involved. I want to ask the Minister if, as I believe he feels, the patient's health must always come first, how he is taking into account the concerns of the Seven Oaks nurses local No. 72, which has disputed every one of those back-up procedures, and how he is answering to the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, who have said that anesthetic standby is more than a function , it is a role for which the registered nurse hasnot- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker , my answer is as I have given to my honourable friend, that in the Department of Ophthalmology, where a patient, because of whatever number of medical circumstances, requires the administration of intravenous anesthesiology for the performance of cataract surgery, those surgeries are scheduled so that that backup is in place and patient safety is assured. I have answered that three times now. My Honourable friend seems not content with the procedures that have been taken and exist today to

260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 provide quality, safe patient care at Seven Oaks Hospital. Child and Family Services Youth Victim Services Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Osborne has the floor. Mr. Alcock: Last week, we learned the results of the victimization of some 16 children.

I now have a report from the Youth Victim Project which was made available on the 21st of September to the department, and the department was involved in it, that lists 183 children who are being similarly victimized in this city, 20 of them under the age of 12. There is a recommendation in this report, Mr. Speaker, that Child and Family Services of Central Winnipeg be asked to maintain a position to provide consultation and leadership regarding youth victims services. I would ask the Minister of Family Services, has that recommendation been acted upon? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr.

Speaker, the Child and Family Services agencies are working very intently with the victims I believe the Member is speaking about. A number of agencies are providing counselling. We are reviewing this on an ongoing basis. Layoffs Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Osborne, with his supplementary question. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, the department was involved in the creation of this report. It recommends a specific position, and the person who filled that position was one of two staff laid off last week.

I would ask the Minister if he is prepared to see if that position is reinstated so this project can be followed up on. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Servlces):The staffing, Mr. Speaker, with the Child and Family Services agencies is a decision made by the board of Child and Family Services agencies. That agency, working in conjunction with other agencies, has assured us that there will be no cut in the quality of service that is provided by those agencies. Youth Victim Services Mr. Reg Alcock(Osbome): Mr. Speaker, there are two issues in those cuts.

More than one of those staff have been attacked by dogs, by people bearing weapons, but this is a report from the department that specifically references the reinstatement of a position. Will the Minister act to see that this service is continued? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr. Speaker, I would assure the Member that our concern is with services provided, and we have been given the indication that these Child and Family Services agencies are working in a co-ordinated fashion to provide that service. Free Trade Agreement - U.S.A. Report Tabllng Request Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr.

Speaker, it has been a long-standing requirement that Ministers of the Government provide accurate and appropriate information to questions and not attempt to mislead this House. Mr. Speaker, on Friday I asked the Minister of Industry and Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) to table any information he had with respect to the impact of the Free Trade Agreement on the Province of Manitoba. He tabled the document which I have in my possession , which is both misleading and inaccurate, when in fact the Minister has in his- *

(1350) Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I have listened carefully to the

preamble of the question. First of all, the Member opposite cast aspersion on every Minister in this Government by talking about attempting to mislead. Now he has identified one specific Minister, and he continues to talk about misleading information. I am saying to you, Mr. Speaker, that you call the Member to order and you ask him to withdraw the spurious allegations he has made to the Ministers on this side of the House. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Opposition House Leader, on that same point of order. Order, please. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, I would point out to the Government House Leader that

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 261 Beauchesne's Citation 490 clearly indicates that misleading has been ruled to be parliamentary. If the Government House Leader would recall, we have decided in this House, our tradition here has been that deliberately misleading has been considered unparliamentary. In no way, Mr. Speaker , did the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) suggest that there was a deliberate attempt to mislead this House.

He simply stated the fact that misleading information had been brought forward to the House, which is both parliamentary and I think his obligation as a Member to point out to this House. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honourable Member for Osborne, on the same point of order. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, I think the Minister involved has admitted that the information was inaccurate. I think the Member is quite correct in bringing forward the information to the House so we can get accurate information from this Government. Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Order, please. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, if you would care to check the record, the Member's first comments, the Member for Flin Ron, were that Members of this Government were attempting to mislead. That again was a charge against all Members on whatever subject it is that one could conceive, and I would say that is out of order. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised, I would like to tell the Honourable Members that I was of the opinion that I had heard that the Honourable Member was stating that it was a tradition of this House to attempt to bring accurate information, I believe. Order, please. In consultation with the table officers I find there is some discrepancy in what I believed I had heard; so we will investigate the tape, and we will report back to the House. *** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, kindly put his question now, please. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

Given the factthat the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism had in his possession a document from the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, which clearly shows that we are losing in every category, manufacturing category, wholesale trade, retail trade, through the Free Trade Agreement, will this First Minister now lay on the table for the people of Manitoba any document in his possession, any study undertaken by the Government or asked to be undertaken by the Government, which pertains to the impact of the Free Trade Agreement on the Province of Manitoba? Hon.

Gary Almon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I might indicate that during the period of Government between the -(interjection)- during the period in which the Member for Flin Flon -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. *

(1355) Mr. Fllmon: We now realize that the Member for Flin Flon is only here for joking around. He thinks that he is doing a service to the people he represents, and the fact of the matter is that this is a very serious matter. During the period of time thatthe New Democratic Party was in Government, when he was a Minister of this Government, manufacturing employment in th is province dropped by some 10,000 jobs. Between 1981 and 1987, 10,000 manufacturing jobs were lost, Mr. Speaker. That is a fact available through Statistics Canada, available through any source of information that he wants to check.

That is the case. Today we have employed in Manitoba overall 25,000 more people than were employed when we took office in April of 1988. That is fact according to Statistics Canada. Those are facts that are on the record, Mr. Speaker. He may in his smarmy way want to rejig and represent any sort of information he wants, but those are two facts that represent what New Democrats represent in terms of job creation in this province. Trade Deficit Increase Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, I do not know that it is joking around to attempt to inform Manitobans about the impact of free trade.

Could this Minister indicate what he intends to do for the industries and the workers in the Province of Manitoba in the following industries: food industries, which declined in terms of our trade deficit 244 percent; primary textiles, which declined 52 percent; clothing industries, 52 percent; furniture and fixtures industry declined 7 4 percent, trade deficits which

262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 continue to increase month after month? What does this Minister intend to do about- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I repeat that there are 25,000 more people employed in Manitoba today than were employed in April of 1988 when this Government took office in this province. That is fact.

I repeat that while the Member for Flin Ron was in Government, was a Member of the business development portfolio, Minister of Business Development, they lost 10,000 manufacturing jobs in the period from 1981 to 1987. I repeat as well that there are many employers in this province, many industry sectors, that are at their highest employment levels in their history. Places like Bristol, places like Boeing, places like Flyer Industries and other areas are at record employment levels in the last while since this administration has been in Government. Mr.

Speaker, that is the kind of good news I would not expect to hear from the Member for Flin Flon in his twisted view of reality. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, with his final supplementary question. Mr. Storie: The members of the public do not want to hear fabricated good news. They want this Minister and this Government to deal with the actual news. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister again.

Given the 36 percent increase in the trade deficit in manufacturing, will the Minister now tell the House what he intends to do with the increasing trade deficit in the area of retail and wholesale trade, which has declined 47 percent, '88 over '89? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, these are not fabricated, good-news announcements I am making. These are Statistics Canada information that we are presenting-25,000 more people employed in this province today than when we took Government in April of 1988.

During the period of time in which he was in Government, his NDP administration lost 10,000 manufacturing jobs between 1981 and 1987. Those are facts. We continue to work with the people of this province to build a better economic environment, and I invite the Member for Flin Ron to join with us in repealing final offer selection to get a better business climate in this province, to ensure that there is opportunity for investment, job creation and growth. An Honourable Member: I would just like to table the -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. An Honourable Member: ...

Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, September- Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, tabling a document. Goods and Services Tax Impact Education Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): My question is directed to the Minister of Education.

In light of the concerns expressed by various school boards and school divisions that the effect of the GST will impact at least 2 percent on the expenditures of school boards and school divisions , in the Province of Manitoba next year, what steps if any is this Government taking to alleviate that tax grab on the backs of school divisions, school boards and ultimately the taxpayer of Manitoba? *

(1400) Hon. Clayton Manness (Acting Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, we will take the specifics of the question as notice. I want to assure this Member and all Members of the House that this Government has been very adamant in its discussions with the federal Government that the impact on school divisions and hospitals and universities indeed be totally negated, that in essence there be neutral tax effect before and after the goods and services tax. Mr.

Chomlak: In light of the comments of the Minister, could he please table in the House any reports or any information or any discussions that the Government has had with school divisions and individuals to indicate that in fact the tax will be revenue neutral? Mr. Manness: I am not here to defend whether that tax is neutral or not. It is not my tax. The Member fully well knows that it is not our tax, so let him not stand in his place and try to paint that picture.

I said, on behalf of the school divisions and universities and hospitals and municipalities, we have made strong representation to the federal Government that the imposition of the goods and

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 263 services tax be neutral to school divisions and all of the other public institutions in this province. Mr. Chomlak: My final supplementary is to the Minister. In light of the fact that an official in the Department of Education has indicated that the school tax will be revenue neutral, will the Minister undertake to confirm to this House in any reports or tables or studies or representations that indicate that? Mr. Manness: I will have to take that question as notice. To me it was repetitive; it was very similar to the very first question .

We will endeavour to respond more fully tomorrow. Farming Industry Interest Rate Relief Program Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. This Government announced its interest relief program in May with some great fanfare and talked about the $24 million that would be made available to farmers and during the campaign bragged about this program, but now the Minister of Agriculture will not tell us how much has been forwarded to the banks in order to cover the interest relief program for the farmers. Will he today give us that information? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Yes, we did introduce a $24 million program. The federal Government has put a high interest policy upon us, and the farmers have a hard time paying those sorts of interest rates. We reduced the interest rates by 7 percent and put enough money in the budget to be introduced this week for all farmers to participate fully. Naturally, we suspected the farmers that did not have an operating load would not participate in the program. We do not know to the extent to which they did not, but that means the uptake in the program will be undoubtedly a little bit less than $24 million.

We made it available to all farmers to the tune of 7 percent, and the banks co-operated very well in terms of absorbing all the administrative costs of running the program, and thei r running of the program created no slippage in it at all. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, we do not have the answer to the question. Will the Minister tell us why he will not tell this House how much money has been forwarded to the banks on behalf of this Interest Relief Program? Mr. Flndlay: Mr. Speaker, the program is over on January 31 of 1991. The budget has not been introduced yet, and we are going into Estimates.

She will have a chance then to ask those questions, but the program is not complete until January 31, 1991. At that time, the figures will be available. Mrs. Carstalrs: Well, Mr. Speaker, a payment has been made to the banks. The question is very simple. How much was the payment? Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) has given a full response to the second question. Three questions were the same. I would ask for you to call the Member for River Heights to order and ask her not to continue to repeat the same question. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised, the Government House Leader is quite correct. The Honourable Member's question is repetitive. The Honourable Member kindly rephrase her question, please. *** Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, there is only one reason for him not giving the information, and that is the program has been a failure. Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us why the farmers of this province did not require the money which they continually bragged about? Mr.

Flndlay: -(inaudible)- standing up in this House and said the program is a failure when we reduce the interest rate of farmers by 7 percent to allow them to put their crop in. She has no respect for the farm community in this province at all. I can guarantee to her that all farmers who needed operating loan interest relief participated in the program very willingly and thankfully respected the program as doing an excellent job. Mr. Speaker, I also respect the farmers who did not have an operating loan respected the program by not abusing it, so the farmers were right on both accounts.

She is insulting every farmer in the Province of Manitoba today by saying what she said in this House. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh!

264 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Goods and Services Tax Impact Cultural Industries Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Wolseley has the floor. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. It seems every week that Canadians are subject to conflicting information on the so-called virtues of the GST. This is in spite of the million dollar flier we all received last week and the so-called hot line.

It seems that some fund-raising agencies have been told that all funds raised over $30,000 are subject to the GST, but when I contacted the so-called hot line I was told that this was not accurate. I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, about the effect of this conflict of information on arts and cultural agencies. I would like to ask the Minister what steps she has taken to inform arts and cultural organizations of their responsibilities in this matter. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, the greatest area of concern and confusion with respect to the imposition of the Goods and Services Tax is definitely within the area of the non-profit groups and primarily within the cultural activities section, because there are numerous rules and application as we understand it. We are trying our hardest as the Department of Finance to get greater clarity with respect to the imposition of the GST within the area of concern to the Member. Goods and Services Tax Impact Cultural Industries Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I would like to thank the Minister for that reply, but to turn back to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation, I would like to ask her, if given the current economic conditions in this country and province and the impact of the GST on fund raising of all kinds, what provisions has the Minister of Culture and Heritage made to increase provincial support for the arts community, particularly in light of her own report, the DeFehr Report, which supported greatly increased funding for all arts organizations? Hon.

Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Within a couple of days time we will have the budget at long last for the Province of Manitoba for the last fiscal year, and there is an estimate process which will deal with all of those questions in great detail. Ms. Friesen: My final supplementary to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation is: What measures has the Minister taken to assist with the administrative costs for arts organizations who will be forced to pay and collect the GST once the Bill has passed the Senate? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Speaker, I guess I should probably repeat the answer that I just gave, that the Estimate process will be available to the Members opposite shortly after the budget is introduced, and we will be able to deal with those types of questions in detail at that time. Crystal Casino Strike Mediator Appointment Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): My question is to the Minister responsible for the Lotteries Foundation. The casino strike is now in day 52 without any sign that this Minister is concerned or attempting to seriously negotiate a settlement.

On Thursday the Government in fact did not even respond to a new offer from the union. Considering the fact that this Gov.ernment took just two days to appoint a mediator in the doctors strike, will this Minister now appoint a mediator to deal with this eight-week-old strike at the casino? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, we have at all times tried to negotiate a fair settlement with the casino workers, taking into consideration our responsibility to the taxpayers of Manitoba.

I do want to indicate that there is a conciliation process in place, and we invite the casino workers to get back to the table and to negotiate within the 3 percent offer that we have made to them. Mr. Dewar: So far the strike has cost the health system over $1.4 million. How much more will it cost before the Minister does appoint a mediator? *

(1410) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Speaker, I reject that statement unequivocally, and I do want to indicate

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 265 that there is a lot of false information out there in the general public. Rather than public comments by the MGEA that the average salary for a casino worker is $18,000, I want to indicate to the House today that the average salary for casino workers is $20,700 before you take into account the tipping policy, which gives them an average salary of $23,600 per year. The information that is floating around there is somewhat inaccurate.

The casino workers received an average of a 9 percent increase just less than a year ago when the casino was moved from the Convention Centre to the Fort Garry Hotel, so there is inaccurate information. We are trying at this point in time to establish a fair settlement for casino workers in the province. Government Action Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selklrk): If the Minister is not prepared to appoint a mediator to settle the strike, what action is she prepared to take to end the impasse? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr.

Speaker, we welcome the casino workers to come back to the negotiating table and work within the 3 percent that we have offered to those workers for a fair settlement. BIii C-21 Cost to Manitoba Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Family Services. Today the Senate is passing Bill C-21, the Bill cutting UIC benefits, eliminating federal contributions to UIC and increasing waiting periods for claimants. For two years the previous Minister refused to take a stand on the Bill and said she was studying the effects.

Has this Minister determined what the costs of the Bill are to Manitoba in dollars? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr. Speaker, over the last two years this Government has provided substantial funding for this particular department as well as other departments which serve individuals in our province. Later this week the budget will be tabled and shortly thereafter we will be going into the Estimates process, and we will have a chance to look at the details of the budget at that time. Unemployed Help Centre Funding Mr.

Doug Martlndale (Burrows): A supplementary question to the same Minister. Since this Bill will deny Manitobans at least $30 million and, more likely, as much as $65 million per year, what actions is this Minister taking to assist the unemployed who will be hurt by this Bill in particular, and will the Minister restore funding to the Community Unemployed Help Centre which in 1989 cost the province some $60,000, and returned to the province something like $100,000? Hon. Harold Gllle~hammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr.

Speaker,.this department deals with somewhere between 130,000 and 150,000 Manitobans in the course of a year, and we are very concerned that the services that this department has provided in the past will be continued. Given the state of the economy, certainly we are concerned about any new expenditures. Food Banks Minister Visit Request Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): A final supplementary to the same Minister.

Since food banks and consultants advising firms how to close plants are the major growth industries in this province, will the Minister commit himself to visiting food banks of which there are 175 outlets in Winnipeg and the Unemployed Help Centre in the immediate future and increase welfare rates to help cutthe- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. The Honourable Minister of Family Services. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the short time that I have been Minister, I have taken the opportunity to visit a number of agencies in the city and in the rest of Manitoba, and I would hope that in the near future I will be able to continue that policy. Environment Department Staffing Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): My question is for the Minister of the Environment. As the Minister is aware, there is continuing need for strong legislation to protect the environment. However, even with good legislation, there is also the need for people to monitor and enforce the law to ensure that there is public safety and environmental protection.

266 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 Can the Minister of the Environment tell this House whether his department has hired the additional 14 staff that were promised two years ago to help enforce environmental laws in Manitoba? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): I believe the vacancy rate in my department is extremely low now and so I am sure all those positions are filled. Ms. Cerllll: My supplementary question is: Will the Minister confirm that none of these positions have been filled and that in fact the enforcement branch has yet to see any position increases? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, there is a very low vacancy rate in my department today, and any positions that we have available to fill we are filling. Ms. Cerllll: My final supplementary question to the Minister is: Will the Minister undertake to fulfill his commitment made more than two years ago, to have at least 14 new positions created in the Department of the Environment to enforce environmental law? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, my colleagues from Treasury Board will confirm that I have made kind of a nuisance of myself the last while working towards the upcoming Estimates, and I would invite the Member to review these questions at Estimate time and I will have further answers. HealthCare Surgery Delays Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Due to the delay in many surgical procedures, line-ups are becoming an unacceptable way of life.

Patients are being forced to seek treatment in the U.S.A., and a two-tier system is being forced on the public by this administration. Can the Minister of Health tell us what specific measures his department has taken to ease the shortage of the delay in the surgical procedures in Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I want, with all the kindness I can confer on my honourable friend, to reject his allegation that this province is moving toward a two-tier surgical system. -(interjection)- My honourable friend the good doctor says, we already have one.

Maybe he is participating in a two-tier system in his practice, but I am not aware of that. Out-patient Cllnlcs Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): This Minister of Health has never learned and he will never learn his job. We have a two-tier system. We have five medical clinics in Manitoba where you can get the surgical procedure for $800, Mr. Speaker, if you have the money. The system is one for the rich and one for the poor. Can he tell us when he is going to initiate the out-patient clinics not only to save money, but also to serve the people of Manitoba? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): My honourable friend in his first question, and I thought he was going to clarify his role in the medical system when he got up the second time and did not. My honourable friend points out the fact that we undertake certain medical procedures out of province. Yes, we do. Where that service is not available in the Province of Manitoba, we make referral, for instance, for heart transplantation, primarily to London, Ontario. We used to refer bone marrow transplant patients to Vancouver, but now that program is being undertaken in the Province of Manitoba.

We do make referrals upon occasion to some U.S. facilities for such things as imaging and other areas where we do not have the servictr- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Out-of-Province Treatment Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Can the Minister of Health tell us how many patients are applying by months to the Health Services Commission to go to the U.S. to seek treatment? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I can provide my honourable friend with the current statistics on the number of patients who are referred out of province for medical services.

That information can be made quite readily available to my honourable friend, because some procedures, as I had explained in my previous answer, we simply do not undertake in the Province of Manitoba, do refer them out-of-province and pay the entire costs, regardless of whether that procedure takes place in London, Ontario or Houston, Texas. Palllser Furniture Emission Levels Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): In the central southeast portion of my constituency of Transcona, there are a large number of residents who have been adversely affected by the emissions from the

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 267 nearby Palliser Furniture Manufacturing plant. While work is progressing on the plant site to contain dust and wood particles another problem, namely, toxic fume emissions, is creating havoc for the residents. My question is for the Minister of Environment. What testing has his department or other Government departments undertaken to determine the levels of emissions from the Palliser plant and the work site? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): I believe any emissions would be under licence or under control by my department, Workplace Safety and Health, but if there is something occurring that the Member is referring to which might perchance be outside of a licence or a permit, I will be glad to take notice and make sure that any information is brought forward. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs.

Vodrey) for an Address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answer to his speech at the opening of the Session, the Honourable Member for St. James has 20 minutes remaining. *

(1420) Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): When I left off last day, I had discussed some of my concerns in the Departme nt of Justice. As I had indicated to Members, I have been honoured to have been given additional critic responsibilities. The major other responsibility has come up in the Department of Environment. Mr. Speaker, we have already seen, in my brief tenure as the Environment Critic, a virtual environmental crisis in this province and in this country in the Rafferty-Alameda situation.

Despite two court orders, despite over four years of wrangling, both involving the New Democratic Government as well as this Government, in which nobody had the ability or the fortitude to come up with sufficient environmental reviews to pass court muster, we still have a dam, which will affect Manitoba's water quality and quantity, 95 percent complete, if not totally completed. We have the other dam, the Alameda portion, which started on Friday. Mr.

Speaker, it is hard to believe that despite court orders from the federal court of Canada and despite the spoken commitments of three levels of Government, the Saskatchewan Government, the Manitoba Government and the Canadian Government, not to mention the United States Government, and I will leave them out of this for now, but despite those commitments from those three that, yes, we are doing a full environmental assessment; yes, this was environmentally sound; despite the assurances that the panels had done their work; that everything was A-OK, and Manitoba was going to be well-served.

Two courts, on separate occasions, saw fit to strike down this dam, and yet today we know that one of those dams was built illegally, Mr. Speaker. It is enough I think to make even the most jaundiced citizen a little more than depressed about the state of environmental protection in this country and indeed in this province. There are perhaps some explanations. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I draw to Members' attention that the three Gov ernments involved are Conservative Governments. That may or may not mean anything, but the fact is they are Conservative Governments.

We know of agreements that have been signed over the course of that four-year period. I do not want to draw too much into the actual partisan nature of it, because we know that the New Democratic Party here in Manitoba played a very large hand in the Rafferty dam getting built without the approval of the courts. We know that full well. In fact Mr. Blaikie put it far more articulately than I could. -(interjection)- Yes, he is the Member of Parliament, Madam Deputy Speaker, for part of this city. I really appreciate it, and I must congratulate him on his forthrightness.

That is a rare quality when a Member can get up and roundly criticize his own Party and his own colleagues in the provincial Legislature. Mr. Blaikie did that and he has risen in my estimation, because of that. I appreciated his comments. He put the facts on the record and the facts were that from 1986 to 1988, through that period of time, the New Democratic Government was hand in hand with the Government of Saskatchewan in getting that Rafferty dam built.

268 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 They got to this House in Opposition status, and all of a sudden decided that they were concerned for the welfare of the environment in the part of the province affected. Madam Deputy Speaker, with respect to the various agreements, which have been negotiated and entered into by the Government of Saskatchewan and the Government of Canada, I am not privy to those agreements. What I would like to know from this Government, and what I will be asking for, is what did this Government know about those agreements?

Was this Government involved in the discussions which led to the agreement with the United States, which the United States is now saying we are bound to? That agreement specifically isolates Manitoba and talks about the amount of water that we will get in this province. Were we privy to that agreement? That is a question which I think needs answering. The other thing which occurs to me, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the agreement which has most recently been alleged by Premier Devine and denied by Mr. de Cotret. That agreement as well had profound implications for this province.

I find it hard to believe that when Saskatchewan and Ottawa were sitting down talking about this dam going ahead, they did not at some point pick up the phone and at least advise the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) for Manitoba that these discussions were going on and that the whole environmental process mandated by the court was about to be by-passed. That is a question which has not been answered by this Government.

I think there is a little more in the closet than comes to the eye on this, because I find it very hard to believe that two Conservative Governments sit down to discuss a very serious issue for the third Conservative Government in this country and do not let them know. However we warned-in this Party, the former MLA for Wolseley, my colleague, Mr. Taylor, warned the present administration on May 11 of this year that what Saskatchewan was really doing was going ahead full steam building the Rafferty dam. Did they listen?-no. They said, we trust Mr. Devine, we trust Saskatchewan. He said he is improving the safety.

Who are we to say he is incorrect? Not to mention the farmers in the area, the environmental groups, the Wildlife Federation, the people who were actually there were all telling us, look this dam is going ahead full speed. Madam Deputy Speaker, we get to today-a week ago, lo and behold, the dam is completed, surprise, surprise. This Government turned a blind eye for at least the last four, five months if not for the last two years on this issue. They new full well that this required a full environmental assessment. They refused to participate with the Wildlife Federation in taking that to the courts.

When the courts did impose a court order they refused to vigilantly ensure that the Province of Saskatchewan abided by that court order. As I have said I find it very depressing. I think all Manitobans should find it depressing that despite all the fine words from three Governments, despite two court orders from our federal court, this dam has been built. It is finished. It is going into operation. It is going to potentially affect our water quality and quantity. That goes against everything everybody said. That goes against our court system. What can you do, Madam Deputy Speaker? What else is left?

The integrity of the entire environmental review process has been seriously eroded by this. The Conservative Governments in this country, namely, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Canada, must take responsibility for that decrease in integrity in the environmental process in our country. With respect to environmental issues, there will be many in the coming Session and indeed in the coming term of this Government. The public is increasingly aware that politicians have given lip service to the issues which come up in this area and are increasingly intolerant of that lip service.

They are starting to make this, I believe, an issue of such importance that they will vote on this issue. I welcome that. I think it is high time we understood that the environmental desecration that we are perpetrating now is the legacy to our children, and it is not a legacy we want to leave. We have an obligation to preserve, to be stewards of this world and what we have. *

(1430) I think sometimes you look around the world at all of the other nations that pollute and the Brazilian rain forest disappearing and it is easy to become a bit despondent, but we have in this province an

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 269 enormous tract of land and water. It is our duty, as this corner of the world, to do what we can do. It is no excuse to say we are not going to solve all the problems. We have the power and we have the obligation today in this corner of the world. We must act now. We must look for co-operation from our brethren across this country and around the world. That is no excuse if they refuse to participate, we must act now. The City of Winnipeg in particular and the waterways in this city are of great concern to me and my constituents .

We know that the Red River and the Assiniboine River continue to be abused within our city limits and outside of them. Just last year we know that Headingley jail, rather than spend the $25,000 or $30,000 which it was estimated to take to ship thousands of gallons of raw sewage to a treatment plant because their own treatment plant had broken, instead of doing that this Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) made the decision for the quick and easy solution. They just dumped it into the Assiniboine River. That is the type of activity that simply will not do, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I think the Government will get away with those types of abuses on many occasions if they perpetrate them. They will get away with them. We will not catch all of them. The environmental groups will never catch all of the desecration which may occur secretly, but we have an obligation. This Government has an obligation to do what they can to preserve the environment and to not make those crass decisions, which serve the immediate need but seriously undercut the long-term sustainability of our environment.

I reiterate for all Members the four Rs, which I have called on my colleagues in my caucus, and I ask others to call on their colleagues, not just in their caucuses, but in their families and in their communities--the four Rs, which are to reduce first, then to reuse, then to recycle, and finally to recover.

That is a good and, I think, an effective way to remember our obligation as we go on into the 21 st Century, Madam Deputy Speaker, with a world which is increasingly short on pristine, natural environments, natural resources and increasingly filled with larger numbers of people a nd larger numbers of elements in society which are willing to desecrate our environment freely. Another of my critic role s, Madam Deputy Speaker, is Native Affairs.

This is one that I am particularly pleased to have taken over from my colleague, the former Member for Niakwa, who did an outstanding job in this House in raising the issues of concern to Natives and had a deep and abiding interest and concern for those people in our society. I want to start by welcoming the members of the aboriginal community who have joined us in this House in this term, and despite our partisan differences I do welcome the increased voice of that community in this Legislature.

I look forward to their comments and their concerns and their suggestions for how we go forward with respect to the relationship with our aboriginal community. We have, of course, in the near future the expectation of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report. We all know the travails that our entire province went through in the production of that report, and how difficult it was for many of us to face what was coming out and to come to grips with the embedded racism in our system as it pertains to aboriginal people, no more so perhaps than in the justice system, Madam Deputy Speaker.

When we get the report, it is my intention and that of our Party to take it very seriously, to consider carefully the recommendations which are made, and to go forward hand in hand with the aboriginal community. We cannot afford to make unilateral decisions any longer. We must include those who are most pivotal in the growth of the aboriginal community as a force in our society, as an equal force.

The message which came to me, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I suspect to many of us as we went door to door in this campaign, was not one of intolerance towards Native people; rather, it was one of wanting to deal with the issues. People said to me, we acknowledge that aboriginal people have been hard done by in our society. We acknowledge the real lives that they live in this province, and the statistics are glaring. They are glaring in the area of corrections, in the area of drug abuse, in the area of family violence, in the area of poverty, malnutrition.

We do not have a particularly stellar record in this province and indeed in this country in dealing with our aboriginal peoples. You cannot deny this real situation that t hey live in today; however, people were wanting to deal with the issues and deal with the grievances and stop pushing this off. If Native people have some solutions that they are putting forward to us, if they have a rebirth of pride in their culture, in their traditions, we should welcome that,

270 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 and I do welcome that because it will allow us to go forward in a cooperative manner. There will be the confrontations which we saw this summer. There will be those continuing even in this province, but as long as we have a proud Native community in this province we will have the potential, and only then will we have the potential, for a future society in which they are equal partners with us. I welcome the rebirth frankly of Native pride and vigilance in the protection of their traditions, their languages and their culture.

With respect to the other critic portfolio, which I have picked up, that of Natural Resources, Madam Deputy Speaker- An Honourable Member: Great department. Mr. Edwards: I hear the Minister saying, it is a great department. I am not in a position, at this point early on in the term, to contradict him on that, but I simply say to him that as time goes on, and as we go through the Estimates process, which I intend to concentrate on to educate myself more fully than I am today with respect to that department, I very much look forward to working with him when the opportunity avails itself.

Of course the issues in that department do coincide with some of the ones which no doubt will come up for me in the areas of Native Affairs and indeed the Environment and so I look forward to learning that whole area of iss:ues and I look forward to pursuing those issues on behalf of Manitobans in this House. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to talk briefly about where I see our Party a1s providing a message in the service to Manitobans in the coming term. We must acknowledge of course that our Party would have hoped much better than we had in this election.

We went from official Opposition status to third Party status and every Party in this House I might add has experienced similar deflations. It is part of being in politics, and part of any Party, and those are the facts. •

(1440) Madam Deputy Speaker, we are of course hopeful that in future elections gains which we have lost in the last election will be regained and even further gains will be made.

Every Party in this House of course takes that partisan position, but with respect to the message of the Liberal Party, which we are afford ed the opportunity to bring to Manitobans through representation in this House, albeit seven Members, or however many Members in our Party are in this House, with respect to that message, I do believe that we are the Party, and the only Party, which can illustrate to Manitobans the need for a balance in Government. We know the Conservative Government has long ago sold its soul to the business interests of this province and this country.

We know that the Chamber of Commerce says, jump, and they say, how high? We do not just speculate about that. We have seen that in the brief tenure even in a minority situation when you would not think they would be so brazen, they were. The Chamber of Commerce wrote a report, back in early 1989, at the request of the Government, saying, yes, we would like to see carcinogen levels in the workplace reduced. We do not like being held to the lowest detectable level standard. They also, in a very forthright manner, acknowledged that they had not had time to do a full report.

Yet, based on that, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Government unilaterally went ahead and reduced the standards. Thankfully, through our political process, it showed up in the Gazette and all members of the public were quickly apprised that this had occurred. When we brought it to the Government's attention, they were sufficiently embarrassed and humiliated that they agreed to put the standards back. That was in September of 1989. The standards did not come back for some eight or nine months after that. Madam Deputy Speaker , I see my light blinking here. Does that mean something? Two minutes.

Let me conclude by pointing out to the New Democratic Party, they also have sold their souls long ago, and we have seen that in this House in the last two years. They say they represent the little person in this province . Give me strength. It is hard to believe that someone could be so brazen as to make that comment. Madam Deputy Speaker, who exactly are they kidding? They come to the election trail and they say, we are not going to raise taxes for 10 years. In their tenure, they raised and created new taxes 36 times, that is worse than the Conservatives and they say, we are not raising taxes.

They say, we like pay equity, why are you not doing more about pay equity? Who put the cap on pay equity payments?

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 271 Who put it on? Who wrote the legislation that said you cannot spend more than a certain percentage of your overall budget? -(interjection}- Good point. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am at the end of my time, regrettably. I noticed my friends in the New Democratic Party applauding that I am at the end. I have no doubt that they are applauding. I had a whole waft of notes here which would concentrate on them.

Let me say in conclusion, and I had left it out at the beginning of my comments, that I understand that three of the Pages which will be serving us in this present Legislature are from the area of St. James. I want to congratulate them on their appointments, and I want to thank them for the contribution they have and will continue to make to this House. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Through you to the Speaker, Madam Deputy Speaker, please let me join with my many other Members of this Chamber who congratulate you and express to you their support in being chosen for this most prestigious office. It is very apparent that you enjoy the confidence of Members of both sides of this House and is no doubt due to the fair manner in which you have dealt with matters concerning this Legislature. Many speak highly of your abilities, and I look forward to your guidance in the future.

I would also like to congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on being selected as Deputy Speaker, and to all Members for their success during the recent election. Also, to the new Pages, I extend my congratulatio ns on your selection to serve this Chamber. Before I start to give you a brief profile of my constituency of Transcona, I would first like to express my deep appreciation to the people of Transcona who voted for me and who have given me the opportunity and the honour to represent them in this historic Chamber. It is an honour that few will ever know in their lifetimes.

I would also like to thank the many, many people who have always been committed to the principles of the New Democratic Party and whose efforts were very instrumental in returning the constituency of Transcona to NOP representation. Transcona has a long and proud tradition of electing New Democrats to this Legislature. I would like to pay tribute to those before me. Leaders, such as George Olive, Russ Paulley and Wilson Parasiuk, have ably represented the community and the province over many decades. Each in their own way made Manitoba a better place to live.

Transcona is also a very prolific community in that it produces politicians for many areas of the province. Here in this House, we have three sitting Members who were raised in Transcona. The Honourable Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans}, the second longest sitting Member of this Chamber, grew up in Transcona, as did the Honourable Member for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans}, and myself. I think that is an impressive percentage out of 57 seats. Madam Deputy Speaker, Transcona is a community of approximately 30,000 people and consists of nearly every nationality.

The community is working-family orientated, and we pride ourselves in being able to have our seniors remain in Transcona close to their families and friends. Transcona started at the turn of the century as a railway town. Grand Trunk Railways, later known as CN Rail, established a major repair facility in Transcona in 1909. The rail presence remains in the community to this day. Over the years other industries have established in our community. Today we have major employers such as Griffin Steel, New Flyer Industries, Palliser Furniture, as well as CN Rail.

There are also numerous small businesses operating in the community. Madam Deputy Speaker, Transcona is not a community without its needs or concerns. Several of these became very evident during the recent provincial election as many residents expressed their strong feelings. One very large concern expressed was the unfair tax burden placed upon those in our society such as seniors, single-parent families and working families in general.

The people of T ranscona believe, as do I, that the level of taxation should be based on the principle of one's ability to pay and that those now not paying or deferring tax should contribute equally to the operation and maintenance of our province and country. There is a strong feeling in my constituency that the wealth of this province and the country in general is shifting away from the majority into the

272 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 hands of a few. This will only lead to a two-class system comprised of the very rich and the very poor. Also discussions with owners of small businesses in my constituency, these entrepreneurs expressed their complete disdain for the proposed goods and service tax. These small business people, usually family operations who now put in long hours for their business , are distressed that this tax will add up to four more hours per day and will drive customers away from their business. This GST may be the cause of their now successful business's failure.

It is not just the seniors and the working families that recognize the negative impact of the GST but small business as well. Madam Deputy Speaker, the people of Transcona are concerned with the threats to our health care system in this pmvince. Above all other social programs they view this the most sacred. I see this program as the fundamental difference between ourselves and our U.S. neighbours to the south. This I believe to be true, because like most Manitobans we view ourselves as caring, compassionate people who are concerned for the well being of others less fortunate than ourselves.

I would now like to tell you of some of the other needs or concerns for my constituency. There are many seniors in Transcona who wish to remain in their homes. Due to lack of funding for home support services these seniors are forced to seek a residence in seniors comple,ces. Senior support programs should be enhanced to encourage our seniors to remain in their own homes for as long as possible. For those unable to remain in their own homes and unable to care for themselves there is also a need for personal care homes. As an environmentally conscious community the residents of Transcona want very much to take

part in curbside recycling programs. There is also a need to see the eastern portion of the Perimeter Highway completed to redirect the heavy traffic flows away from internal Transcona streets and thereby improve the neighbourhood street safety in our community. Madam Deputy Speaker, since Transcona is a working community it is only natural that the residents be concerned for the prospects of their jobs. In these times of massive layoffs, high unemployment and high interest rates, the control of our economy now in the hands of those market-orientated, profit-driven few, it is no wonder the working families fear for their future. *

(1450) Manitoba needs a Government which shows concern and action on issues which protect and ensure equal opportunity for all, a Government which protects tenants' rights, believes in the principle of equal pay for work of equal value in all sectors of the work force, the health and safety of its working people and the protection of our environment, including long-term permanent recycling programs. We as a people must also concern ourselves with the opportunities for education and retraining of people in our society.

Our young people must be given every opportunity to achieve higher levels of education and to gain new skills. This must be done while bearing in mind the limited resources available for these youths to finance their own way. It must be viewed by Government as an investment in people for the future. Our youth represent the future. Whatever we invest now will determine the rewards down the road. As we have seen, the large numbers of people laid off, Government should play an improved role to encourage and assist the unemployed to retrain. This will enable them to seek new employment opportunities.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I would now like to tell you.of the few of the many people in my constituency who come to mind. One particular woman, a widow in her mid-fifties, was struggling to make ends meet working for a non-union hardware retail outlet for a little over $5 an hour. The single-parent families, and yes there were many of them, who were barely existing on service-sector wages, when one views these personal lives first-hand it becomes natural to want to help these people in need. These people want to work and be productive.

I think that as Government we owe it to these people to ensure that they earn a livable wage. That is why it is important for us, as legislators , to recognize the need and increase the minimum wage in this province to a decent level and then fix its rate to the cost of living. While the minimum wage is very important, good quality jobs are also important. With the advent of deregulation and the free trade environment we have witnessed the decline of the

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 273 transportation industry in this country. The freight and passenger railways have seen massive layoffs in all employee categories. In 1988, the M.P. for Winnipeg-Transcona released a document showing that CN was going to cut 17,000 jobs by the early 1990s. We hoped it was not true, but unfortunately it was. Just as recent as last week, CN announced another 1,500 employees would be losing their employment and then after that another 1 ,500 more. Where does it end?

In October '89, just one year ago, VIA slashed 27,000 people from its employee levels and half its service to Canadians. Just last week, Air Canada laid off 2,900 employees. Just months before, Canadian Airlines swallowed up Wardair causing the loss of hundreds of jobs. The trucking industry, with nine of 14 Canadian companies headquartered in Winnipeg, is now looking south to the United States for possible headquarter's operations. This is a result of the invasion into the Canadian market of U.S. based truck industry brought about by free trade and deregulation.

With the massive number of jobs lost in transportation, good quality jobs, one has to wonder where this decimation will end. In this province and this country we need a strategy, an integrated action plan, to co-ordinate what is left of the transportation industry. Madam Deputy Speaker, at a recent hearing in Quebec by the Royal Commission on national passenger transportation, members of the Quebec community talked about the need for a Government-financed, privately-operated, high-speed rai l line to run in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor.

While it appears that the concept of high-speed ground transportation of passengers has come front and centre, we as a Government should be reminding other Canadians that this country consists of much more than the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence population region. I believe that we need to seriously consider the utilization of intermodal passenger transportation terminals to co-ordinat e travel and make it as convenient as possible for the travelling public. This would also necessitate the use of rapid transit in major urban centres.

I believe with such a system, we would see a move away from the private automobile and, to a degree, reduce our costs for road and highway maintenance, not to mention the environmental benefits. Rapid transit, rail transportation and public ground transportati on should move in the direction of electrification, not only because this country has untapped hydro-electric generation capacity, but because we must develop ways to lessen our huge appetite for expensive polluting fossil fuels. One only needs to look at what is happening to fuel costs, supposedly as the result of the Gulf crisis.

Railways yearly apply to the NT A for branch line abandonment. While the large scale of twinning of highways in the southern portion of Manitoba is important to the people and communities and economies of our communities affected, I believe that the remote and isolated areas of this province, particularly the north central and northern regions, should be consulted to determine their needs, and if required, link up those communities with the outside communities on an equal priority with southern regions.

I believe that where remote communities are involved, a moratorium should be placed on rail line abandonment until alternate use studies can be conducted for either roadbeds or for flexible commuter lines. We must not focus solely on core networks. This country and this province would not exist today if that had been the attitude 100 years ago. Madam Deputy Speaker, as is the custom for new Members of this Legislature, I would like to speak briefly on my heritage and my family. At the conclusion of World War I, my paternal grandparents immigrated to Canada from Scotland.

Job opportunities were scarce in the old country, so in 1920 like many of their time and with the lure of greater opportunities, my newly marr ied grandparents moved to Canada. With the prospect of employment on the railway in Winnipeg, Transcona-the location of the newly constructed railway overhaul and maintenance shops-became our home. This was the beginning of what is now three generations as a railroad family. Collectively, my family has nearly 150 years of railroad experience.

Horticultural activities were the hobby of my grandparents, and to this day one can travel through the community and view many of the mature trees which were planted by my grandfather. In fact, in east Transcona there is a well-treed park, complete with a children's play area, which bears the family's name.

274 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 Madam Deputy Speaker, my maternal grandparents moved to Manitoba around the turn of the century. During their youth, they lived in Gravelbourg, Saskatchewan , and before that they and their ancestors had moved to Saskatchewan from the Province of Quebec where many generations of my maternal grandfather had resided. My recollection of my maternal grandparents has faded, as they passed away before I had an opportunity to really know them. I was born, raised, educated and subsequently employed in Transcona.

I think it is an excellent community in which to live, work and raise a family. That is why my wife and I chose many years ago to remain in Transcona and raise our family. Families play a very signific:ant role in the decision for each Member of this House in determining whether or not to seek public office. Without the support of our spouse and our family, we would not be able to be involved in activities for the betterment of our communities .

That is why I would like to take this opportunity to thank my wife, Sheila, our three sons, my parents, brothers, sister and many other members of my family for thoir support in making it easier to enter public life, so that I may serve the community of Transcona. *

(1500) I have found that once in public life, one's family becomes significantly larger and that the responsibilities multiply. I welcome the challenge, and I dedicate my energies to working with and for the people of Transcona. Thank you. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Madam Deputy Speaker, first of all let me eicpress my best wishes to you, and through you to Mr. Speaker who has done an excellent job in the previous Session. He has gone through some of the tough decisions, and it is clear that his reappointment is a testimony to his work in the last Assembly.

Madam Deputy Speaker, also my best wishes to the new Members on both sides of the House, because it is very important that their dreams come true and I sincerely hope that. It is a very tough profession, and we have all chosen this profession by choice. At times, we have no control in this House and we have no control wha1t happens outside this House. That is what happen,ed that many Members were not able to come, not that they did not perform very well, it is the circumstances . This is one of the rare professions where you have no control.

I sincerely hope that the Members -(interjection) no, we do not have any control. We try to perform our best, but the judges are sitting outside this House and they make the decision. I think, based on their decision, we should continue to work hard. I want to express my sincere appreciation to my old constituents, the constituency of Kildonan, who gave me the opportunity in 1988 to serve them. As their constituency grew very rapidly, the new constituency of The Maples was created. A new constituency, which is very unique.

Like many other constituences, it has a new Canadian, constituency and has old Canadian, the balance between many communities. Also if you just go on one street, you will be able to see at least 10 to 15 different nationalities. That is very rare, in this country, on one street. It was a very enlightening experience for me for the last two and a half years. I saw during the campaign that if you work hard, if you are honest, most likely the chances are that you will come back, and I thank my constituents for showing their confidence and sending me back in this House.

Madam Deputy Speaker, let me touch base on the campaign. The campaign was very tough. At times there were many events of which the candidates have no control. I think at times the underhanded approach by some people was not very well respected by the communities at large. I think we have to be very careful that it does not matter what the outcome, you must be honest in your campaign and not try to derail other people for something of which they have no control. I will run again on my character and my work, and I do not have to defend anything else.

It is very difficult when you are a new Canadian and running for public office. Many questions are asked on the doorsteps. Anyway, if you keep on working hard and try to be part of the whole community, I think it works in the long run, but there are always some individuals who will try to take the advantage and try to fight the definition of who is a real Canadian and who is not a real Canadian. It is very, very dangerous and should never be repeated in any constituency. Let me talk about my role in this House.

For the last two and a half years, the responsiblity was given to me as the Critic for the Department of Health. I did try my best to bring the criticism and also make

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 275 some suggestions during the two and a half years of Session. I want to express my sincere thanks to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). I do not agree with him most of the time; but it is very clear that he has worked very hard, and he has made some changes which are very, very positive. I want to express my thanks to the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), who was also the NOP Health Critic. We all worked together, and one of the achievements made was the improvement in the area of mental health work. I think we should follow that example.

During this term, we will do everything possible to give positive suggestions to this Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and make sure that some changes are definitely made. Some of the issues should not be based on political affiliation only. Health care is a very important issue, and when we see all the changes that are being made, sometimes the Minister of Health or the other Members have no control. There are a lot of things happening outside this House and it has become a very, very difficult job. I sincerely wish the Minister of Health good luck and the ne w Member for St. Johns (Ms .

Wasylycia-Leis), who is the opposition Health Critic. I will try to do my best. My other role as the Labour Critic, which is very unusual, I am still learning about that critic role, and the Workers Compensation Board, as well as the Civil Service Commission. I think in due course of time I shall try to do my best on those areas also. That ends one of the parts of my speech. I just want to outline some of the issues in the health care system. As we see, and the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has pointed out many times, the health care costs continue to grow at a very tremendous rate.

We have seen that for the last 10 years, it has grown up more than 180 percent. We are spending about $1.7 billion on 1.1 million population. That is about $1,600 per person in Manitoba, and I think that is a lot of money. Even after spending all that amount, there are still a lot of problems in the system. Those problems did not come for the last two, three, or four years. They have been developing over a period of a number of years, and they will continue to grow if we do not try to address them and move in a new direction. The new direction has to be the new ways of providing for the health care system.

Those new ways are not going to come very easy because if you start any new programs, it is going to have some negative impacts in the short term but would benefit us in the long run. One of the examples of those programs is in the area of preventative health where you have to put money up front, and the beneficial effects may not come for 10 years or so. I think the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) should move in that direction. The other area for major concern is where we see the line-ups for the surgical procedures and for many health services continuing to grow. The Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) today said that we do not have a two-tier system. Actually, we do have the two-tier system right now, because you have certain people who can afford to pay $800 to go to a surgical clinic, and get a cataract operation done; but for someone who does not have $800, they cannot go and they have to wait. What does that mean? It is a two-tier system. Plus, now we have a third part of the system which is a profit-based U.S. health care system where many people are going. Some of them on their own, some of them they cannot get services here and so they are forced to go to the U.S. and seek treatment.

Even though some of the money is being reimbursed, they are still spending their own money. When they go to the U.S., they are also spending some extra money there anyway. So it is not good economically for Manitoba to drain some amount from this province to go to the U.S.A. Those things will not change unless services are improved, because you have to improve services. We know that the instant answers are not there. It is not going to be very easy to go the next day and get your surgical procedures.

For some of the life-threatening situations where you need treatment say in two to three months time, or you need treatment for cancer, you need a heart by-pass, you need a C.T. Scan or you need a different kind of scan, you should not be waiting more than a few months, because in a way when you delay service you are cutting the services and it will cost you more in the long run to serve those individuals. We may be delaying for a short time, but we are costing the Province of Manitoba more money than it would cost otherwise.

The other issue here is the long-term facilities and the services for the elderly in Manitoba. As we all

276 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 know the population of Manitc,ba is growing above the age of 65 at a very rapid rate. Now we have about 13 percent of the population in Manitoba who are above the age of 65 and in some parts of Manitoba even more than 17 or 18 percent, most specifically in the western part of Manitoba. So the services for that population must be focused right now, because their population does use the services to a greater extent than the normal population. •

(1510) The number of hospital beds in Winnipeg and in other hospitals that are being occupied by chronic care patients or a patient who should be in a personal care home, it is a verir, very expensive way of providing a health care system. That is not being done, even though in the last provincial budget there was $240 million. Out of that a significant amount was spent to develop the personal care homes, but that is still not adequate.

I am not saying that the money is right there available so we have to spend right away, but the plan has to be there because ultimately in four years time this Minister of Health will be blamed if we do not have the right system. That can be done in different ways. One of them is personal care homes, s13condly it is by the long-term facilities-and we have seen one facility, the Deer Lodge Hospital which has been vacant for a number of months, and is still vacant. Not that we do not have beds there, but one report was missing-actually it was only missing from the Minister's point of view.

The report has been there as of January of this year. The report clearly outlined that facility could be used in a different way, for the long-term care patients, for rehabilitation purposes, for the brain injury patients. We heard that announcement made by the Minister only a few weeks prior to election. Now we are told that the beds will not be open until the spring of next year. I think in a way the money is being wasted, because you have patients in hospitals who are occupying expensive beds, and you have empty beds which are less expensive and they are still not being used.

The other area where the money can be saved is by the day hospitals. Day hospitals are an excellent example of how the patients could come during the daytime and get the services, go back to their homes, because most of them would like to be in their homes, and families are willing to help to some extent. Then the third part of the triangle is the home care services. Even though in the last provincial budget some money was underspent the Minister of Health had made some statements that people are more healthy, they are not making the best use of the home care services.

If you talk to the people who need those services it is not the case, because if you provide them with home care services you will save the money in the long run. So three parts of this system could be used very effectively. It will save us money in the long run. The other area where I still have to see some progress is in the area of out-patient clinics. If the number of patients who are waiting for many surgical procedures have to wait for hospital beds, it may take a long time. If you have the out-patient surgical clinics, people could probably spend a few hours, and that is being done at Seven Oaks Hospital.

Cataract surgery can be done in a few hours and the patient can come back. It is the very, very least expensive way, and it could be expanded in some other hospitals, but for that, the capital expenditure has to come. We sincerely hope in this week's budget we may see some momentum in that regard. If we do not have the Government-funded out-patient clinics, we will have the private-funded clinics. Right now we have two clinics, one in Brandon and one in Winnipeg. Those clinics are providing some of the services.

If you have as I said earlier $800 extra and you can get the out-patient surgical appointment and get your surgery done, and if you do not have $800, good luck to you. The same way is done in Brandon, and it was very clear this morning from the newspaper, Free Press, on the second page that one of the surgeons at Brandon General Hospital is thinking of establishing the same kind of clinics on the basis that he cannot get OR time in the Brandon General Hospital. So he has to establish and make use of this kind of clinic.

In a way if we do not make progress in the out-patient surgical clinics, upgraded by this Government, then we will be creating a new system and it will be dangerous. It will not be very healthy, because once you start one, two and three, and as long as they fulfill the requirements by the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Government cannot stop them. I know that, but if you have

Octob er 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 277 services available for the general public to use, then the people will not go to the profit-making clinics. I was just listening to the Minister of Natural Resources' (Mr. Enns) speech. It was very well said, and he said that we should probably work very hard on some of the issues and make sure that the people of Manitoba would benefit from some of the services. He gave a very good example of Meech Lake, but I am not an expert on those issues. There is something that can be done in the area of health care, because it really matters to all of us.

We may just have a different approach in certain circumstances but still have the same goal to provide the best possible services. That is why I said from the beginning that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has worked very hard, and probably is one of the few Ministers who has done a very good job in the area of health care, in some aspects, and I have no hesitation of saying that. I know that he will lead that back to me, but that is fine, I will accept that.

I think that within four years, if we all work together on some of the areas of health care, I think we can make progress, and certainly from my point of view, especially when my own professional career is suffering to a greater extent, I want to be helpful and be productive in whatever I can. So my approach during this Session and the next three years will be a little bit different than last time. I want to reassure the Minister of Health, and I have brought to his attention some of the issues which could be one day wonder news, but it could have a harmful effect on the services.

I think we have to be very, very careful to bring those issues to this House, because we could wait for about a thirty-second clip, I think we may ending up harming a lot of people, so we have to be very careful. I think I should go back to my previous part. I was thinking about the issues with the seniors, and the one area is in mental health, and the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has done an extremely good job in that respect, but we have to move faster on that area. I did table one of the reports which is available to the Minister of Health, and it is for western Manitoba. It is a very expensive report.

It is going to cost $16 million to upgrade all those facilities, and we know that is not possible overnight, it may take two, three, or four years. Now they have four years' time, I think it could be done. That will establish the new Brandon Mental Health Centre with a 20-bed-or part of our recommendations that have been made in this report are the children's ward, plus the rehabilitation, plus the psychogeriatric care. All that can be done. We will not be too critical on that issue now, because I think the time is needed to repair some of the system.

We have this shortage of professionals in the area of mental health, and I think some of the other ultimate ways of resources could be used. The mental health care workers, the LPNs, the RNs and social workers could be used in a more effective way, and that should be done. I do not think the Ministe r of Healt h (Mr. Orchard)-w hen anyone should be afraid of saying things when they are right, because if we do not get psychiatrists, we should try to make the best possible use of the other resources.

One of the programs is done out of Seven Oaks Hospital, which is very effe ctive, the family practitioners working along with the psychiatrists. The same I am hopeful will be done at Grace Hospital. I think this program could be expanded throughout Manitoba. That will be very beneficial not only to provide services but save money in the long run. The other area which still the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) has not solved-and I have to be very critical of that one, because we have seen the shortage of many health care professionals, the nurses, the doctors, the physiotherapists, speech pathologists and you name it. All areas of health care professionals are in short supply. This is going to get worse, if solid measures are not put in place. We have given him a good example. I still do not understand why he has a difficulty of following one of the proposals. He has given his reason that there are not many people available, so we cannot use that rural internship program, but that is notthe case.

You have about 600 doctors right now in this country, and they are qualified. They have passed all their exams and want simply the need of one year of internship. Now they require two years, because of the change in that regulation by the college. So if you get them two years of training, you will be able to s ecure doctors. The issue will come that, well, how can you do it? It may be against the Charter of Rights to get somebody to practise in a given area, but if somebody is signing on a voluntary basis, then I do not think we have a difficulty. •

(1520) 278 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 I am not saying lower the standard. The standard is there. We should screen them in all the best possible ways, make sure they are qualified, they are competent people, but if we even have the program for two years, we will solve the problem for the shortage for the next five years or 10 years, minimum. It will be very cost effective. It will cost about $26,000 to $28,000 to have a rule and have internship.

Those interns will serve the teaching hospital, and at the same time, when they are qualified, they will go back to the rural communities and practise. I think the rural communities must have a say in the selection, and make sure somebody likes Thompson, somebody likes Swan River or Dauphin, because we do not want them to say in two years' time, I did not see the place. They must see those places on their own expense and make sure that they like those places. That could be done. That area has been ignored, and I think the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) could take a lead in that respect, because we have seen the hunger strikes in Vancouver, we have seen hunger strikes in Montreal. Some progress has been made in some jurisdictions, but in Manitoba I think he has a chance to make good progress on this issue.

The other area of major concern still remains the services in the area of preventative health and some of the year's education program has been a factor, but I think more has to be doine to keep up to date with the current information and the current level of services which are required in Manitoba, and I have not heard any new policy initiated for the last few months, because those areas where they are changing at a rapid rate, with the new information coming to the professional!; and to the general public, changes have to be made at that time. One major area of concern is the Health Advisory Network.

It was set up two years ago and so far only one report has come out of that health network. Maybe the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has more reports, but we have just seen one. That was on the extended care facilities in Manitoba. The report has been very good in certain areas. In some areas we do not agree with that report, but the Minister has not provided us the update on much of the work they are doing. One of the promises made by him last Session was to set up a committee to look at the delay in the surgical procedures , especially the cardiac surgery, why there is a difference between St.

Boniface and Health Sciences Centre. I have not seen any response from the Minister of Health on what has been achieved in that respect. It looks like I am making the Minister of Health feel uncomfortable, but it is a legitimate question. It was raised a number of times, and we have not seen any response from him so far. We will give him some time. The Minister of Health has four years to do it and I think four years will be good time, especially when people have given them the mandate. I think we have accepted that mandate. We will see what the majority Government will do. So far things have not changed.

We have not seen any major policy announcement from the Minister of Health. It is only one month; we will wait. I still have not seen any improvement in the speech therapy. The waiting period still remains the same. The Minister has made a very good point, that more people are seeking services, and that is true, but still I think he could make a lot of progress if a few more positions can be allocated to the major health centres, especially the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface. Some progress was made, but still people are waiting for 18 months.

It is not very positive, because by the time they get the service it is already too late. So in a way your postponing of that special service is having an impact on the growth of a child. It is very, very dangerous; that has to be corrected. Madam Deputy Speaker, could you tell me, how much time do I have? Ten minutes? Madam Deputy Speaker, during the last two and one-half years one area which was very much celebrated and recycled many times was the casino funds, $10 million of casino funds.

An announcement was made three times in this House, twice outside with a Hollywood style sometimes, to make sure that we have $10 million, and now we see these casino workers for the last two months begging for them to come to the table and they have not shown any action at all. I think it is very, very unfortunate, because the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) could use that $1.4 million for something very positive. I do not agree with that policy, but when we have the policy let us make the best use of the available funds.

I think it would be the best thing for him to sit down with the new Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) and come to their terms, because I know that he has a lot of power in that front bench, but we will wait for the action.

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 279 Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the other area which is of great concern is the shortage of the other health care professionals, and that has to be corrected. Now the settiement with MONA and the other organization is coming, and we will wantto see the Minister of Health make good on their promise for pay equity. It is very, very important. They have not made any sincere effort so far, but still they are negotiating. I think we will give them another few weeks to make some positive decisions. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think I will end my speech here.

I want to thank my constituents again, the constituents of The Maples, for giving me a chance to again make their views known in this House and also thank all the Members of this House for letting me participate for the last two and a half years and today again letting me express some of my views. I have been very positive. I told the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) we will give him a lot of positive suggestions, and I hope that we can achieve positive things for health care in Manitoba. I thank you all. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I know that we are fast moving toward conclusion of debate on the throne speech, and I wanted to make some contribution, first of all, to congratulate you on your reappointment to office and to the Deputy Speaker, congratulations on taking over that very onerous time-consuming role and very important role. I want to formally welcome many of the new colleagues to the House, new colleagues on both sides of the House, and my two new colleagues in Cab inet, the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) and the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). * (1 530) Mr.

Speaker, since this is the first debate, throne speech debate, of a new Government , a new Session, I want to particularly thank the constituents of Pembina for returning me. That has been my fifth election in my political career. This time around we had some new territory in that the change in boundaries combined the Communities of Winkler and Morden in Pembina constituency. It is now quite a compact constituency. Mr. Speaker, always one approaches election, even if it is re-election, with some trepidation, because you have new areas to represent.

I am pleased to say that the voters in Pembina constituency chose to support my re-election in very generous terms, and we achieved the largest plurality in the Province of Manitoba. For that I sincerely thank those many people who assisted me during the election campaign and voiced their support in the ballot box. I also want to thank the constituents that I represented for the past 13 years in areas that are now part of the MLA for Turtle Mountain's constituency and Pilot Mound, Crystal City, Clearwater.

In those communities, my honourable friend will find very excellent, very generous constituents, whose needs and concerns he will enjoy meeting and representing in this House. To my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), who inherited the longest-standing part of my constituency, welcome to a good part of Manitoba, in communities of Carman and Roland, et cetera, that are very well looked after by the Minister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, in this election I found the electorate to be, this being my fifth election, in a very different mood, much different than any of the previous four elections that I asked them for their support. Not only in Pembina constituency did I find this, but throughout the province as I travelled. There is a great deal of cynicism in the political process right now in Manitoba and I think in the nation, wherein the voters I think feel as if they have been abandoned by their elected representatives.

I think it is no small accomplishment to ponder for my honourable friends in this House, particularly in Opposition, that the trend-and it may persist-has been not to re-elect incumbent Governments and in fact in rather uncertain and without questionable terms to turf some out, as happened immediately to the east of us.

The one thing that I have found, as I travelled the province and sought votes in the Pembina constituency, is that there was a genuine recognition that Premier Filmon and the previous Government attempted to deal honestly with the situations and the circumstances that presented themselves to a minority Government. Mr. Speaker, they gave high marks to that effort, and I think that in major part was the reason why we were able to be re-elected, because I can assure you that our federal counterparts in Government were not of assistance in terms of public opinion for quality Government-to put it gently.

I think that what

280 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 Manitobans expressed was some faith in the process and a recognition that we had tried to bring a good and sincere Government. Mr. Speaker, I want for a moment to refer to remarks made by the Mover of the throne speech some 10 days ago. The Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr.

Rose) put on the record some very, very interesting remarks that all of us should cont em plate and ponder, in that he urged us to consider very seriously the honesty with which we approach our jobs in here, honesty around a very important issue that when Government provides support, be it a grant or otherwise, to any group, regardless of how worthy the cause is, when we call it simply a grant, we are not being quite honest. It is taxpayers' dollars we are providing to them. That, Mr. Speaker, was the overriding issue in this election campaign.

Manitobans across the length and breadth, whether they be farmers who are very much struggling today with grain prices, production costs, a despair in the farm community that I have never experienced before, or whether they be working people in the north end of Winnipeg or anywhere else in the length and breadth of this province, the clear and unequivocal message that was delivered to us as MLAs is that we have paid quite enough taxes and that we want you, as governors of the province's financial affairs, to get your act together and to make more effective use of the enormous amount of taxpayer dollars that they contribute each and every year for us to spend on programs through various departments and ministries.

I want my honourable friends to reflect on the message that the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose) put in his seconding of the throne speech. I want to make just two small points to remind my honourable friends of the importance of honesty. We live in a political environment, and I expect upon occasion for honourable friends opposite to try and score political points in the health care system to my disadvantage. I did that when I was Health Critic as well. I want to tell you I thank my honourable friend, the MLA for The Maples (Mr. Cheema).

Over the past couple of years we have had our share of fights, but when support was deserved, I could count on him to provide that kind of support. Today he indicated that would be the case again; but I was particularly distressed-and it builds into part of the mood that was there-at the general distrust of what politicians say that was in this last election. Two points in mind came out during the Leaders' debate, which was televised. One of them was made by the now Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer), who was then Leader of the third Party, wherein he said that beds at Deer Lodge Hospital had been vacant for 26 months. That is a small point, Mr. Speaker, but it was false information. I can accept the fact that the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) might unknowingly put incorrect information out to the public, but in this case he knew. He knew those beds were only ready for service at the very earliest some 13 months ago. One might argue: Okay, well so if it is 13 months or 26 months who is counting, people still could have used those beds.

That point is made and I accept that, but that was the whole purpose behind the Health Advisory Network in bringing in expert advice to give us and guide us in the decision-making we made in terms of provision of extended-treatment beds throughout the City of Winnipeg. As my honourable friend, the Member for Maples (Mr.

Cheema), said earlier in his remarks this afternoon, had we followed the interim report that came to the Health Advisory Network in January or February of this year we would have left Concordia and the north-east quadrant of the city completely without facilities, had we followed the Liberal Party's advice of the day, to accept that first interim report holus-bolus. We chose not to.

We chose to wait until the final report of the Health Advisory Network, which gives us a balance that I think all observers, who were not maybe of a vested-interest approach-all impartial observers said we made the right kind of decisions in that announcement. That took time, and that took patience. That is why Deer Lodge beds were not commissioned until we had that expert advice, but the dishonesty that was there in the remarks of the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) cheapens the whole political process. My honourable friend, the Liberal Leader (Mrs.

Carstairs), during that debate used an example in terms of trying to point out a difficult situation in the health care system. She used, Mr. Speaker, the example of the young man who broke his leg in a hockey accident in the Interlake, was rushed to Winnipeg, was admitted to the Health Sciences Centre and did not receive the surgery for four days. My honourable friend, the Liberal Leader, used that example trying to say that was crisis and chaos

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 281 in the health care system as a result of what this Government had done in terms of its policies and programs and funding over the last two and a half years. Again that was not accurate. What cheapens the political process is the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) knew that to be false when she said it in the debate, because I commissioned the quick response team to investigate the circumstances around that young man's unfortunate delay in receiving surgery.

The conclusion was that had the admitting physician, who could not get that young man in for surgery at the Health Sciences Centre, would have simply phoned two other hospitals that evening-one of them being the Seven Oaks Hospital-that young man would have had his surgery that evening within hours of being admitted, but the physician kept the patient in his hospital so he could do the surgery and it was delayed three days when it could have been done. •

(1540) Now it is hardly a policy of Government that caused that. That is hardly underfunding, as alleged by the Liberal Leader (Mrs. Carstairs), but rather a process of no communication between our hospitals in the City of Winnipeg. That !s one of the primary recommendations that was made by the quick response team in trying to resolve problems like that in the Mure. So, Mr.

Speaker, when I say that the electorate were in a different mood this time around as we went and campaigned throughout the length and breadth of this province, they were in a bad mood because they are sick and tired of politicians who will say what is opportune and not necessarily the truth, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) did, as the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) did, simply for political advantage. They wish to have policies developed which will work, and Mr. Speaker -(interjection)- Well, my honourable friend, the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr.

Doer) is one of the ones who is very famous. He is renowned in the press for the 15-32nd clip regardless of truthful content or not. He is the quick-fix artist when it comes to news clips. I listened to his remarks in the throne speech debate where he identified one thing and one thing only in the health care system and that was the need for reform. He said, we must reform the health care system. Then my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), in typical New Democratic Party fashion, offered no solutions, not one single solution.

That was typical of the time that he was in Government, and it will be typical of the time that he spends in Opposition until replaced by someone competent in the leadership of the NOP. Mr. Speaker, I simply want to point out before I close on my remarks that the mood of the people are requiring honesty. They are requiring careful action, and they want their elected Governments to level with them, to tell them what is possible to achieve. Now what does that mean for a bunch of very new and enthusiastic elected people in the New Democratic Party official Opposition? What does it mean to them?

Well they all want to establish a reputation very quickly. I will share with them some advice I shared with my honourable friend, the Member for Maples (Mr. Cheema), when he first came in as critic for Health in the official Opposition. I tried to follow this advice when I was there.

I fell off the wagon upon occasion I will admit, which is part of the political process -(interjection)- well I fell off the ethical. wagon was what I meant -(interjection)- but Al Mackling deserved every bit of chewing he got, because nobody but nobody except the New Democratic Government would have the audacity to invest in telephones in Saudi Arabia and oil in southern Manitoba. That was the record of Ai Mackling and the NOP and the current Leader of the NOP. That was their record, and Manitobans are $27 million poorer because of it. Mr. Speaker, in 1981 the Minister was the Honourable Member for Brandon East.

My honourable friend, the New Democratic Party Leader, has tried to make this case time and time again, and again he does himself a disservice in his dishonesty to the people of Manitoba-absolute disservice through his dishonesty again. I indicated to my honourable friend, the Member for Maples (Mr. Cheema), that there are many, many times when you can bring up individual issues in the health care system, because when you have the universal system-that is to provide universal access and service to a million people-you are always going to have an individual who is disenchanted with his/her service from the system.

If we reduce the health care system, as time to

282 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 22, 1990 time upon occasion happened, to bringing individual cases to the floor of the Legislature we do not solve any problems whatsoever we, simply create fear, and furthermore you actually demean the people who work very diligently to deliver quality health care 98 percent to 99 percent of the time to all Manitobans without failure, without slip, without mistake. That does a discredit to the way the system does work. Mr.

Speaker, I would challenge my honourable friends in Opposition that when they come forward with suggestions on how the health care system ought to work they better bear two things in mind: can you achieve them should you be in Government; and secondly, be honest enough to tell the people of Manitoba from whence you will take the tax dollars to make thc,se changes, those improvements or those aclditionals to services. Now the quick and easy answer from both Parties of the left in the House today is take them from the corporations.

Well we could debate that during budget time, but that is not an honest answer and my honourable friends know it, not an honest answer at all. If we are going to provide a continuing health care system which provides quality service it take more than mouthing the words of reform, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) did in his speech without offering a single avenue of reform. It takes a substantial amount of consultation, planning and expertise advice.

We have begun those processes in the last two years, and they are beginning to bear some reward and some fruit in terms of where the health care system is going, and where we are able to direct it so that it can continue to provide quality service to all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, I will say unequivocally that no Minister of Health, myself included, and no Government by themselves have all of the answers on how the health care system of 1990 ought to be reformed and what its shape ought to be.

Neither do individual professional groups have all of those answers because everyone of them brings to the table a vested interest in which some benefit happens, but it is not the answer for the health care system. Mr. Speaker, what I am indicating to my honourable friends is I am interested in debating with them in Estimates, in Throne Speech and Budget Debates, initiatives that they believe will benefit the system of health care in Manitoba.

We have many initiatives that are under way right now, which are leading in Canada in terms of their impact upon the future direction of health care delivery in Canada under a Medicare system. Those initiatives will bear fruit. They include analysis and research on what we have done in the past in health care, and how effective it has been in terms of increasing the health of Manitobans.

That will guide us to proper policy decisions and funding decisions in the future, and above and beyond all we have initiated a number of health promotion projects and illness promotion projects, and injury prevention projects, not only in the health services development fund, but in the health promotion fund and in direct departmental programming.

Those initiatives, over the long run, will bear very, very good results for the people of Manitoba in encouraging them to take more personal ownership in their well-being, their status of health, so that indeed the health care system will be there when they need it and not only there when they want it. Thank you. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Member for Pem_bina (Mr. Orchard) for relinquishing the floor, so that I can put a few remarks on the record of this debate. I would like to start, Mr.

Speaker, by congratulating you as many others in this House have done, on your return to the Chair. We were a little worried for a while there as it took some time to get the announcement out, but we are pleased nonetheless that you are here, even though you are a rather poor cribbage player. Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Dacquay) on her appointment. She is someone I have known for many years. In fact, we spent time at the same lake together, and I have come to know her and her family quite well. I would also like to congratulate the Chairperson of Committees (Mrs.

Dacquay), the new Pages on their appointments here, and most of all I would like to congratulate the Premier (Mr. Filmon). He did win a victory. He does have a mandate to govern this province for a period of time. I think he needs to be given the time to put that mandate into force, and we need to be given the time to examine it and to make some of the comments in, I think, the rightful criticism of the policies of this Government. *

(1550) Mr. Speaker, I want to start my remarks today by thanking the people of Osborne for continuing to

October 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 283 support me. I said the last time I stood in this House, on my very first throne debate, that they did not make that decision lightly, that the people in Osborne take a long time. They take their politics very seriously, and they consider t

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-8a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 8a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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