Manitoba Hansard — 13 June 2016 (Sitting 19, 41st Legislature, 1st Session)

41-1-19

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXIX No. 19 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 13, 2016 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CHIEF, Kevin Point Douglas NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon.

River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SELINGER, Greg St. Boniface NDP SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian, Hon.

Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC

713 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 13, 2016 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom and know it with certainty an d accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Please be seated.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Madam Speaker: Introduction of bills? Committee reports? TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Ralph Eichler (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to table the supplementary Estimates for the legislative review for 2016 for the Department of Agriculture. Hon. Eileen Clarke (Minister of Indigenous and Municipal Relations): Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Supplementary Estimates for Legislative Review for 2016- 17 for the Department of Indigenous and Municipal Relations.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister for Sport, Culture and Heritage, but prior to beginning, I would like to indicate that the required 90 minutes' notice prior to routine proceedings was provided in accordance with rule 26(2). Would the honourable minister please proceed with her statement. Orlando Tragedy Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage): Madam Speaker, it is with a heavy heart that I stand today to express the deepest sympathies of all Manitobans for those affected by this weekend's senseless and tragic event in Orlando.

We join with people around the world to condemn the hatred behind this act and to stand with the families and loved ones of those killed and injured. We live in a country where we are free to love and where one person's love for another is not less or more authentic than any other. Our governme nt will continue to advocate for the principles of love, respect and dignity for all Manitobans. As a mother and a grandmother, I was pro - foundly affected by the media images of terrified family members gathering outside the scene, wondering whether their loved one was among the casualties.

I cannot even begin to imagine the fear and the heartbreak they are suffering. On behalf of all Mani tobans, our government offers deepest condolences. We will move forward with even greater resolve as we continue the fight for equality and safety for all. May hope triumph over fear and unity prevail over division. Compassion is a value that binds us toge ther as Manitobans. We care deeply about our communities and we care deeply about one another. And I would ask this House to join me in a moment of silence after the responses. Thank you. Ms.

Flor Marcelino (Leader of the Official Opposition): I thank the minister for her statement. Our heart goes out to the families and friends who lost loved ones in the Orlando massacre yesterday, to those who were injured as well as those who witnessed the tragedy unfold. This was

an act of homophobic violence aga inst the LGBTTQ* community, not only in Orlando but for communities and individuals around the world. Here in Manitoba, I worry about our LGBTTQ* youth witnessing an event of this magnitude for the first time. There are many who must be feeling vulnerable and terrified. Today, we want to tell this youth: we will not tolerate homophobia or any kind, and we will –of any kind, and we will support them as allies in the struggle for acceptance and freedom from fear. We all need to stand with LGBTTQ* community and make it very clear that they are accepted and safe to be who they are.

For many in the LGBTTQ* community, gay bars are a place of safety, a place where they can be themselves, a place where they

714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 can safely hold their partner's hand, a place where it does not matter– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to allow her to finish her statement? [Agreed] Ms. Marcelino: A place where they can safely hold their partner's hand, a place where it does not matter which bathrooms they use, a place where they know they're not alone. Yesterday's tragic events have threatened those safe spaces, and the LGBTTQ* community will need all allies to stand up and help them reclaim their spaces.

Violence and fear are daily experiences for many people in the LGBTTQ* community. There are groups in Manitoba that are threatening their right to be themselves. These –there are hateful, ignorant things said and challenged every single day against LGBTTQ* people. Love is love, Madam Speaker, and every member of this NDP caucus will continue to stand up and support the LGBTTQ community. Thank you. Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I ask for leave to speak in response to the ministerial statement. Madam Speaker: Does the minister–or the member have leave? [Agreed] Ms.

Lamoureux: On behalf of my Liberal colleagues and myself, I would like to give our sincere sympathies to the families and friends of the victims of the Orlando nightclub shooting this past weekend. This was a disgraceful and cowardly act against the LGBT community, and it reminds us that we need to show our solidarity and empowerment as a province and a nation. We need to come together, raise awareness and be strong advocates for o ur human rights. I take comfort knowing that communities all over the world are gathering together to show their empathy, love and support for one another.

There will be a vigil tonight, here at the Manitoba Legislature, in support of the victims of the O rlando shooting. I encourage all my fellow members of the Assembly to join me in attendance. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Is there agreement to observe a moment of silence? [Agreed] A moment of silence was observed. * * * Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, a ministerial statement. Madam Speaker: Oh, I have to read it again? * (13:40) The required 90 minutes notice prior to routine proceedings was provided in accordance with rule 26(2).

Would the honourable Minister of Justice plead– please proceed with her statement. Special Olympics Awareness Week Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am pleased to rise in the House again this year to celebrate Manitoba's Special Olympics Awareness Week. I had the pleasure of playing bocce ball today on the Legislative grounds with Manitoba athletes who will serve on Team Canada at the 2017 Special Olympics World Winter Games in Graz, Austria.

I would like to give a warm welcome to those remarkable athletes who are sitting in the gallery today: Darren Boryskavich, Valerie Delorme, Chrissy Peters, Adam Lloyd and Michael Milani. I would also like to welcome their coach, Sabrina Klassen, and president and CEO Simon Mundey; vice-president, sport and program, Jennifer Campbell; board chair, Larry Chornaby –or, Chornoboy and board vice-chair, Robert Klombies. It was my honour to present private members' Bill 209 three years ago, which received royal assent to proclaim the second week of June each year to be Special Olympics Awareness Week in Manitoba.

Special Olympics Manitoba enriches the lives of people with intellectual disabilities through active participation in sport. It is wonderful to see this organization carryin g out its mission to empower people to be all they can be physically, mentally, socially and emotionally. Due to the work of Special Olympics Manitoba, people with intellectual disabilities are able to become accepted, respected and productive members of s ociety. This message of inclusion is reflected in this year's theme: Accept with no Exception.

Special Olympics Manitoba has already held several events as part of this week's celebrations, and there will be more to come throughout this week. I

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 715 know that Manitobans across the province look forward to the Law Enforcement Torch Run, which raises millions of dollars for Special Olympics each year. The run is open to all major federal, provincial and municipal police agencies, provincial and federal corrections as well as other federal and provincial enforcement agencies. There are many more media and social events planned for this week, and I encourage all Manitobans to check out the full calendar of events on the Special Olympics Manitoba website.

Madam Speaker, I ask that all members of this House join me in recognizing all Special Olympics Manitoba athletes and to thank the coaches, volunteers and family members who support this incredible organization. Thank you very much. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): This week we celebrate athletes and the history of Special Olympics Manitoba and reflect on the positive impact their programming has had on our athletic community. This is a time where athletes with dis - abilities can be recognized as the role model s they are for all of Manitobans.

They devote hours to regular practice and training while still offering contributions to society when not competing: visiting schools, attending events and talking to young athletes. Special Olympians stay visible as a reminder that anyone's dreams can be achieved with hard work and commitment. Special Olympics' slogan: Let me win, but if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt. The athletes who come out of Special Olympics Manitoba program are trained in more than just their sport. They learn valuable life skills and know the importance of independence, supportive communities and challenging expectations.

These athletes use the program to assist in their physical, mental, social and emotional growth and to become excellent examples of accepted, respected and productive members of society. In 1978, 28 track and field athletes travelled from Winnipeg to Regina for the first Special Olympics Canada Summer Games. Since then, Manitoba's program, started by hockey player Ted Irvine and executive director Dan Johnson, have become a h ome for community members of all ages to stay active, make friends, compete and challenge themselves.

Now there are over 1,600 athletes participating in 134 different programs all over Manitoba. Each sport is broken up into different divisions to group of athletes together into the same gender, age and ability so that fair competition is always respected. This model also allows athletes to try new sports as they age or their abilities change. Comprehensive programming ranging from grassroots, community -based clubs to world- class competitive initiatives give participants every opportunity to excel as athletes and individuals.

The program would not be so–such a phenomenal success without the hard- working volunteers and coaches who donate their time to providing excellent training at a range of levels. Their commitments have made–have helped to enrich the lives of Special Olympian participants and the sport community in Manitoba. During this awareness week, I join all members in congratulating all Special Olym pic athletes and thank them for positively representing Manitoba in sports around the world. Miigwech. Ms. Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask leave to respond to the minister's statement.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed] Ms. Klassen: I thank the minister for her statement on Special Olympics week here in Manitoba. I was delighted to attend the kickoff ceremony this morning at City Hall. I was equally honoured to meet the incredible athletes for Team Canada on the steps of the Legislature who will be traveling to the Special Olympics World Winter Games 2017 in Austria. Special Olympics helps with those –helps those with intellectual disabilities find happiness, acceptance and accomplishment. As their lives open up, athletes gain the confidence that comes with this achievement.

They feel empowered. They are ready to take on new challenges and make use of their new abilities. They can become mentors for other athletes as well. They also move toward a more public role as a speaker or a spokesperson, as we witnessed this morning. Today, we witnessed the athletes speaking to audiences and journalists about the positive changes that Special Olympics help bring about in their lives at this morning's press conference. It was quite encouraging to be a witness in the excitement of it all.

716 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 I would like to thank Special Olympics Manitoba and especially to all the dedicated volunteers that are making this event -filled week possible. There are as many as two million people with intellectual disabilities around the world, and for the past 30 years, Special Olympics Manitoba has provided positive, successful experiences through sport for thousands of persons with a mental disability across our province. I look forward to meeting th e athletes and their families today at the reception held here later on in the Golden Boy dining room at 5 p.m.

I'd also like to mention that on July 1st of this year, there will be an ultimate polar bear –polar challenge in Churchill, Manitoba as part of the Law Enforcement Torch Run which will raise funds for the Special Olympics. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to members' statements, I would like to turn the public's attention to the gallery where we have seated i n the public gallery from Island Lakes Community School 78 grade 3 and 4 students under the direction of Kathleen Labelle, and this group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Southdale (Mr. Smith).

On behalf of all honourable member s, we'd like to welcome you here today. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Residents Supporting Syrian Refugees Mr. James Allum (Fort Garry -Riverview): Late last fall, South Osborne residents Paula Leslie, Matthew Lawrence and Sonya Jantz decided to explore how our community could respond to the Syrian refugee crisis. With the assistance of Reverend Janet Walker of Churchill Park United Church, they gathered a large group of residents together to brainstorm. Also present was Joseph Chaeban, a Syrian -Canadian from Charleswood.

Joseph described the situation of his family –wife's family who, after fleeing the violence in their homeland, were facing many serious challenges to provide adequate living conditions and ensure safety for themselves. He asked the group to consider helping them. With this opportunity at hand, the South Osborne Syrian Refugee Initiative was formed. Riverview residents Chris Kiely, Harpa Isfeld -Kiely and Ian Mattey soon became instrumental members of the organizing team. * (13:50) Since then, this group has managed to exceed every fundraising target they've set.

Their first goal was $30,000, which they reached in just five and a half days. Next, they held two community fundraisers where many more South Osborne residents, businesses and non- profits became engaged in the project. As of today, their GoFundMe campaign is just a couple thousand dollars shy of their newest goal, $90,000. This money will support three Syrian for one year after their arrival as they reconnect with their loved ones and start a new life. I am told that one of the three families is expected to arrive very soon, and this will truly be an occasion to celebrate.

To Joseph Chaeban, Zainab Ali the Churchill Park United Church and the South Osborne Syr ian Refugee Initiative, including the members who are in the gallery today, thank you, thank you, for being a bright, shining light in the midst of the darkness of the Syrian crisis. Western Canadian Aviation Museum–Royal Designation Hon. Steven Fletcher (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker, this past weekend we saw the joyous celebration of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, the Queen of Canada's 90th birthday party celebrations. The royal family has many deep connections to Canada and to Winnipeg.

I think of the royal Canadian aviation –Western Canadian Aviation Museum, which has just recently received the quote, unquote, royal designation. In a few days, we will be again blessed with a royal visit from the Duke of York, a nd during this visit he will participate in many activities, not the least of which is a celebration of the aviation history here in Manitoba. The aviation industry in Canada began here in Manitoba with the Richardson family, and is celebrated in the fan tastic displays that can be found at the aviation museum of western Canada–or should I say the Royal Aviation Museum of Western Canada.

In this museum, you will see vintage airplanes and even rockets from our space program in Churchill to learned articles about aviation through- out Canada.

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 717 Congratulations to our longest serving monarch– the largest serving monarch in British history and to the aviation museum, particularly Ross Robinson and Brian King [phonetic] for their capital campaign to make a great museum– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Stanley Cup Champion Pittsburgh Penguins Mrs. Sarah Guillemard (Fort Richmond): Madam Speaker, with apologies to all those Winnipeg Jets fans in the House today, I rise to congratulate my favourite hockey team, the Pittsburgh Penguins, on their winning the Stanley Cup.

A little lone fact about me is I was born in Pittsburgh, meaning that from birth I was a fan of the black and gold. Throughout the whole playoffs, with victories over exceptional tea ms like the New York Rangers, the Washington Capitals, and the defending Eastern Conference Champion, Tampa Bay Lightning, the Penguins showed a skill that was unmatched by any of their opponents. Their decisive six -game victory over the San Jose Sharks showed the Penguins were truly the dominant team in the NHL in the playoffs.

From Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin's dominant performances, to the revelation of Matt Murray and Phil Kesselin the playoffs, the Penguins showed how teamwork can move a group for ward towards their ultimate goal. A special shout-out is in order for Winkler's own Eric Fehr, whom I know the Minister of Finance (Mr. Friesen) was cheering on, along with their entire community. On behalf of all members of this House, I want to congratulate the entire Pittsburgh Penguins organization, including Manitoba's Eric Fehr, on winning the Stanley Cup, and I can't wait to bring the cup back to Manitoba. Thank you.

Sayisi Dene Forced Relocation Mr. Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, for many generations, the Sayisi Dene lived off the land, following and hunting caribou herds in northern Manitoba. But in 1956, the province decided there was a Caribou shortage and that the Sayisi Dene were to blame. They were wrong. But that didn't matter. As the CBC reported, the federal government forced the 250 Dene to move far away from the caribou around Little Duck Lake to the barren tundra squeezed between Hudson Bay and the Churchill cemetery. The government promised housing and jobs but did not come through on either promise.

Instead, the community built shacks with remnants from the nearby dump. They also ate scraps of food from the dump. Starving, culture -shocked and impoverished, they turned to alcohol. Survivors tell st ories of how their once-strong community descended into a hell of autocracies. But they remained resilient. In 1973, on their own terms, they moved north and set up a new community at Tadoule Lake, wanting to return to their ancestral caribou -hunting and gathering life - style. Today, many are once again speaking their language freely, being no longer ashamed to speak it.

In 2010, the Province of Manitoba formally apologized for its role in this tragedy, 'mistakingly' telling the federal government that car ibou herb– herds were declining, and being complicit while the federal government carried out the relocation. The Province also proposed, in 2010, to turn over 13,000 acres of land near Little Duck Lake. This transfer was recently completed and, this summer, the Sayisi Dene will finally receive compensation and a formal apology from the federal government. These gestures will not make up for the colonial actions of the past governments.

But I hope it is one more step in the path of the Sayisi Dene– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to allow the member to complete his statement? [Agreed] Leave has been granted. Mr. Lindsey: I hope this is one more step in the path of the Sayisi D ene to regain their strength, and one more step for all of us toward reconciliation. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Orlando Tragedy Mr. Blair Yakimoski (Transcona): Madam Speaker, I rise today to speak and to offer solace to

718 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 all those whose lives have been touched by the tragedy in Orlando and, especially, to those in the LGBTTQ community and their families and friends. During the election campaign, I was asked directly my position on the issue of equal rights. It's a serious and important question, so I thought I'd put my thoughts to pen and paper. I sat and I thought about the lessons and values that I try to instill in my children, and about the responsibility that I had to them and to those around me.

I wrote: members of the LGBTTQ community are our fr iends, neighbours, co- workers and family. They deserve the better education, health care, and accountability from government that we all deserve. I wrote: Manitobans are all equal. Then I went on to say that Manitobans deserve the same protection from discrimination and hatred. I still strongly believe these words, but realize, in the wake of the tragedy in Orlando that, although we have made progress as a society, there is much more to be done. Like any parent, I worry about my children's safety.

It pains me that parents of LGBTTQ children must also worry about the threat of random, misguided violence rooted in ignorance simply because of who their child is and who they love. The lyrics of John Lennon's "Imagine" ring true today. "Imagine all the people, living life in peace ." Madam Speaker, let us all commit ourselves to replacing hatred and fear with compassion, love and understanding so that we can do more than just imagine this world, we can live in it. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS Education and Infrastructure Government Spending Ms.

Flor Marcelino (Leader of the Official Opposition): I want to first say thank you to the hard work of our public servants as we celebrate Public Service Week. And I especially want to remark on the passing of David Sanders last night, a true champion of the public service. * (14:00) Now, Madam Speaker, I know David would want us to speak truth to power, and it has been clear from day one that this government has used its power to advance a hidden agenda. It began with the PC code words for cuts and privatization in the Throne Speech; it continued the behind- closed-doors pro - gram review.

But their list of so -called budget savings clearly shows their approach. Will the Premier (Mr. Pallister) confirm that the real reason that they put out different versions of budget savings is that they find they did not want to own up to the fact that they are cutting seniors, education programs and infrastructure? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Deputy Premier): I want to thank the member for the question, and, indeed, we have a tremendous amount of respect for all of those in our civil service who do tremendous jobs day in and day out to ensure that we're able to do our jobs as well in–for Manitobans.

And also the condolences for David Sanders and his family, we offer our condolences to the family and loved ones on this tragic death as well. Members opposite, unfortunately, like to play politics, and they like to instill fear and division in Manitobans, and we saw that throughout the election campaign. We saw that members of our community, Manitobans, clearly rejected that vision of fear and division, and we will continue to offer hope for Manitobans in the future. Madam Speaker: The honourable interim Officia l Opposition Leader, on a supplementary question. Ms.

Marcelino: The Premier is also cutting education capital, but, again, they are hiding their true agenda. Will the Premier indicate which projects will be cut, or will they continue their hidden agenda that masks that they're slamming the door shut on needed Brandon schools, rural highways and flood pro- tection projects? Mrs. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the only ones with a hidden agenda were all those members opposite who ran before the last election c ampaign and promised Manitobans that they wouldn't raise taxes and they turned around and did exactly just that. So we will take no lessons from members opposite.

Madam Speaker: The honourable interim Official Opposition Leader, on a final supplementary. Ms. Marcelino: Madam Speaker, the press release this morning, the PC Party included the list of $108 million in cuts to investments and services.

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 719 These are cuts to investments that build our schools, our hospitals and train our future leaders, and the y're being listed by the PC Party as part of their self-described commitment to eliminating wasteful government spending. Madam Speaker, it is really alarming; it's just one example. We are particular worried that this government's commitment to midwives. Will this government provide the necessary resources to continue supports for northern and urban training of midwives, or is this to them just another example of wasteful spending? Mrs.

Stefanson : The prime example of wasteful spending is members opposite for 17 years where they overspent their budget every single year for the last 10 years, and that's why Manitobans are faced with the kind of situation that we're in today. It's unfortunate that mem bers opposite can't learn from their own mistakes. Northern Midwifery Program Government Intention Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St.

Johns ): There's been much confusion and uncertainty in respect of this government's funding commitment for the joint University College of the North and University of Manitoba's midwifery program, which was initiated to provide midwifery services to indigenous communities. With the advent of colonialism and its corresponding regulation and oppression of indigenous women's bodies, midwifery was banned, forcing indigenous women to leave their home communities to birth away from the support and care of their community, family and partner.

Can the minister explain to the students in the gallery exactly what their government's plan and commitment is toward the midwifery program in Manitoba and particularly northern indigenous women? Hon. Ian Wishart (Minister of Education and Training): I thank the member for the question because there has been a little confusion on this issue. There has been no cuts to this program. We continue to work with University College of the North and University of Manitoba to try and develop a sustainable model.

There's certainly been some mismanagement issues in the past 10 years in the program in the North and we want to be sure that a sustainable format is put in place. We have spoken to the students earlier today and assured them that we'll – there be a program in place for them this fall, and I will work hard to make sure that that happens. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Ms. Fontaine: Indigenous midwives are a primary health-care provider, caring for pregnant women, their newborns and their families throughout pregnancy and for the first weeks in postpartum.

Indigenous midwives are a key partner in ensuring indigenous women's rights over their bodies and over their reproductive health and their birthing plans while also promoting breast feeding, nutrition and parenting skills while at the same time, empowering women over their place and space. Can the government explain exactly who i s deciding on this funding? Is it the Minister of Health? Is it the Minister of Education or the five men that currently make up Treasury Board? Mr. Wishart: I can assure the member opposite that the funding for this program is coming from the Department of Education.

As to the decision -making process, I think it's pretty clear that all Manitobans stand to gain from programs like this that provide a service not only in southern Manitoba but in northern Manitoba to the indigenous community, and we're –we as a government are very pleased to stand behind this program. Madam Speaker: Prior to proceeding with questions I would just like to remind all honourable members in the gallery that there is no participation allowed in the process and that includes appl ause. Sorry. The honourable member for St. Johns, on a final supplementary. Ms.

Fontaine: I want to make it explicitly clear to this government and to the House that women exercise all and any rights over our bodies, reproductive health and our birthing plans, which includes staying in our home communities to birth as entrenched under the Charter and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. And so for the purposes of our students that are in the gallery this–today, I'm asking the minister if he is committing. It's a simple question of just yes or no. Mr. Wishart : I think the member needs to listen very carefully to the answers. The answer to that

720 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 question is yes, we have committed. In fact, our government has been very commi tted to the whole process of midwives. It was a PC government who first established midwife as a regulated profession in this province of Manitoba, and we are continuing to be committed not only to the profession but also to the training of students here i n Manitoba to provide the service here in Manitoba. Post-Secondary Programs Future Funding Concerns Mr.

Wab Kinew (Fort Rouge): I'm pleased to hear the minister walking back his comments of the midwifery program, last week, being unacceptable and now committing to fully fund the program. I expect the– [interjection] Read the paper, Mr. – member from Ewasko. However, that just creat es more uncertainty for the other– Madam Speaker: Order, order. I just want to remind the honourable member that when questions are being posed that they be posed through the Speaker and not pointing directly to a member. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. * (14:10) Madam Speaker: Order.

I would urge all honourable members to be cautious with their words here in the House and that the rulings of the Speaker not be challenged, as the member just did, and I would ask the member to withdraw those comments and then proceed with his question. And I would just urge everybody here to just – let's take a deep breath, and these are important questions and answers, and let's do this respectfully with good decorum. Mr. Kinew: With great humility I withdraw my previous comments. So I'm committe d to hear the –or I'm pleased to hear the Minister of Education's words today to support the midwifery program.

However, I am concerned that this creates greater uncertainty for other post -secondary students when they see that there has been $9 million in c uts to post -secondary institutions identified. So I would ask the minister to provide some clarity by tabling the list of post-secondary programs that he is going to cut that will add up to the $9 million that the Premier (Mr. Pallister) and Finance Minister are citing. Hon. Ian Wishart (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, it's a pleasure to get up and answer the member's question.

First off, I want to be really clear to everyone in the midwife program. Any dissatisfaction that we have had with the program was based entirely on the poor performance of the previous 10 years of this government, and we certainly want to be sure that we put in place a program that is absolutely sustainable in terms of the long term, not only for the students involved but also for the Manitobans that will benefit from that program. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Rouge, on a supplementary question. Mr.

Kinew: Madam Speaker, I would like to just put on the record that there have been a number of graduates from this program that the minister was referring to. But, again, my question is: Assuming that that midwife program is now going to continue, there have been $9 million in other cuts that the Finance Minister and the Premier have been speaking about. I would like the Minister for Education to tell us where–which programs are now on the chopping block. Is it the $1 million in capital support for the national centre on truth and reconciliation? Is it $440,000 for the Manitoba transfer credit portal?

Is it $450,000 for Assiniboine Community College's internationally educated licensed professional nurse program? And, if it's not those programs, then please tell us which ones are at risk. Mr. Wishart : Madam Speaker, I'd encourage the member to look at our long term –this government's long-term commitment to education. Certainly, we are committed to an increase of 2 and a half per cent this year for K to 12 and 2 per cent for post - secondary college levels, 2 and a half per cent for university levels. I consider that an expansion in funding. There's certainly no element of cutting anything in regards to that.

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 721 Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Rouge, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: Madam Speaker, again, my question is not about the 2 and a half per cent to universities or the 2 per cent to colleges, and refers to a $9- million figure which was cited in a press release put out last Thursday after Estimates had concluded that day; $9 million in programs for post -secondaries and schools that was to be cut under this new Finance Minister's budget.

So is it that the minister won't tell us, or is it that he can't tell us because he doesn't know and he is being asked to defend the Finance Minister and the Premier's (Mr. Pallister) arbitrary targets? Mr. Wishart: Madam Speaker, well, certainly, when it comes to finances in the Department of Education, we have found a very interesting standard in place where it is contributive towards, in the past, a significant deficit in this province, in excess of $1 billion that this government has left us.

And we have gone through the promises very carefully and we are committed to expanding funding for capital and for programs in this coming year and we will continue to do that to the benefits of Manitobans. And we will be focused on getting the best value for our dollar. Manitoba's Economy Capital Investments Ms. Flor Marcelino (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Speaker, we have one of the best economies in Canada, one of the lowest unemployment rates because of the NDP economic plan that included historic investments that stimulate the economy.

The Conference Board confirmed this morning that capital inves tments are creating jobs and good wages for Manitobans. Why is this government putting needed projects and jobs at risk through their cuts to capital investments? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate all the businesses who are the real people who–the businesses in Manitoba who are the real entities that create jobs in our province. And they have done well, Madam Speaker, not because of an NDP government, but in spite of them.

And we look forward–and they have a lot of hope for the future, because now we're open for business for all of the Manitoban business community. Madam Speaker: The honourable interim Official Opposition Leader, on a supplementary question. Ms. Marcelino: Madam Speaker, the PC Party includes cuts necessary –cuts to necessary capital investments as part of their commitment to eliminate wasteful government spending. This government knows full well that reducing $11 million in amortization and interest payments today means delaying and cancelling tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars in capital construction.

Will the member come clean on the impact of this cut to Manitoba economy, or is this the real reason why the Premier hides the number s because he cynically planned to keep 1 per cent on the dollar on the budget and cut the infrastructure it was intended for? Mrs. Stefanson : Well, and the member was right about one thing, in fact, that members opposite know a lot about government spendi ng, because that's what they did. They spent beyond their means for 10 years. Every single budget, they never met a budget target and they overspent. They've spent well beyond their means. So, yes, they are experts in that field.

But we will be working with businesses in Manitoba. We will be working with all Manitobans to ensure that we receive better results than we ever saw under that government. Madam Speaker: The honourable interim Official Opposition Leader, on a final supplementary. Ms. Marcelino: Madam Speaker, our government, past government, balanced the budget for a straight 10 years. Madam Speaker, what a tangled web they weave. Day after day, the Premier and ministers refuse to answer straightforward questions in this House and even in Es timates and from the media about their true agenda.

Why won't they tell Manitobans what they're going to cut and when? Mrs. Stefanson : If I misheard, Madam Speaker, what the member opposite said, but she seems to claim that her government has balanced t he budget for the last 10 years. That is not, in fact, the case at all. And so–and perhaps I misunderstood and, certainly, she has an opportunity to get up and correct herself on the record.

722 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 But we certainly know the last 10 years that this government spent well beyond their means, in fact, almost double the rate of inflation. And that, we know, is not sustainable. Manitobans know that that's not sustainable and that's why they voted in a government that will be sure to get those expenditures in hand. Capital Projects Government Intention Mr. James Allum (Fort Garry -Riverview): Madam Speaker, you know the numbers around this government's cuts have been a moving target ever since the budget was introduced.

After much prodding, they finally produced a list of cuts, cuts that included cuts to seniors, cuts to education, cuts to prevention and cuts to infrastructure, all of which were characterized as wasteful spending. In particular, the list includes $11 million less for amortization on capital projects, but no indication of which of those capital projects will be cut. Will the Finance Minister tell the House today: What capital projects are on his chopping block? Hon.

Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance ): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity by my colleague to be able to indicate, again, that in Budget 2016 our government is limiting the out -of-control expenditure growth by keeping expenditure growth under 3 per cent. * (14:20) Now, compare where the NDP was causing expenditure growth in excess of 3, 4 per cent every single year, and we know what the effect o f that is over time. Not only was it a $2.87- billion overspend over 10 years, but, also, it meant strain and stress on the front-line services that Manitobans depend on.

We will get that expenditure growth down; we will invest in front-line services. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Garry-Riverview, on a supplementary question. Mr. Allum: The Finance Minister understands, I think, that you can't reduce amortization costs without cancelling or slowing capital projects. Those capital projects could include a new school, could be a new health -care facility, could be better flood protection in rural and northern Manitoba, but we don't know because the Finance Minister won't tell us.

Will he just come clean, just once, and tell us which of the c apital projects are on his chopping block? Mr. Friesen : This is just one way in which our government, through Budget 2016, is driving down that overspend. It is bending the curve on spending, bringing a balance in terms of revenue growth and expenditure growth.

It is work that our predecessors were unequal to– or uninterested in, but it is work that we will do for the benefit of all Manitobans who benefit as a result when we are able to realize areas of savings, as we have done by leading by example in ter ms of even reducing the number of Cabinet positions and ministries and technical officers, resulting in just a $4-million savings alone. It's just one of many examples that I'm happy to talk about with the member opposite. Madam Speaker: The honourable me mber for Fort Garry-Riverview, on a final supplementary. Mr.

Allum: You know, the government might have reduced the number of Cabinet positions, but they gave themselves a huge raise that they didn't deserve. For that, that's very shameful. But we're actu ally asking the Finance Minister about reductions to the capital budget and, in particular, we're wanting to know which capital projects is he not going to be supporting. Madam Speaker, this is a simple question. We ask him every day to give us the plain facts. Will he give us the plain facts today, tell us and tell the people of Manitoba which capital projects he thinks are wasteful? Mr.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, the member opposite doesn't want to talk about the context of all this, which is clearly a $1 -billion deficit, which is a challenge for all Manitobans. We understand that this NDP government left Manitobans saddled with a $1-billion hole in the ground that we must now negotiate our way out of. This is a challenge for all of us but one that we believe we have already made steps on. We have indicated in Budget 2016 concrete areas where we have achieved savings. There is much more to come. We understand this is a journey that we are all on. We are on it together.

The difference between them and us? W e plan to hit our targets where they failed to achieve theirs.

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 723 Children in Care Child Tax Benefit Ms. Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): Madam Speaker, I want to address an issue that affects our children. While children are under provincial CFS care, their federal child tax benefits are forwarded on to the province with the intention that these funds are to be turned into trusts and to be used by local CFS agencies. The trusts then remain until the child reaches age 18. These trusts help the child get an initial start in life as an adult. This was not the case under the former government.

Will this practice of putting the child tax benef it funds into trusts for children continue with this new government? Hon. Scott Fielding (Minister of Families): I appreciate the question from the member. Ensuring that children get the best programming in care is something this government is absolute ly committed to doing. We will be consulting. We want to talk and we want to listen to people, people up North, the people that are impacted specifically with this, and we want to work to ensure that people who are vulnerable, children, are getting the bes t services as we can.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kewatinook, on a supplementary question. Ms. Klassen: While campaigning, our Liberal Party petitioned the previous government as to where these funds had been directed. We know that just over $1 million was taken from money held in trusts for children and then was used for other purposes. My question is: How much more money was taken, and what will the Minister of Families do to demonstrate these funds are turned into trusts for our most dis advantaged, proving this government's call to transparency? Mr. Fielding : Thank you to the member for her question.

Again, we are absolutely committed to providing the best care for our children. We have way too many children in care, over 10 to 11 thous and. We think that's completely unacceptable. We need to provide and ensure that these programs are there. We also know that in the past government over the last 17 years, groups were not listened to as much as they can, and that's what we're going to be doing. We're going to be listening to groups. We're going to be listening to people that are impacted the most by this.

We want to work with the federal government and other organizations as changes are made in the federal level. Madam Speaker: The honour able member for Kewatinook, on a final supplementary. Ms. Klassen: When we hear words like over 10,000 kids in care, I want us here in this Assembly to be very cognizant of this number. Visualize now: The number of current and former CFS children could fill the MTS Centre to capacity. When you strip away all the statistics and issues, you'll realize there are children at the heart of it.

These funds are to be for our children who have reached the age of majority to help with the transition into adulthood. My question to the minister is this: Will the government commit to the restoration of this money that was taken out of those trust funds which are rightfully destined to those young people? Mr. Fielding : This government is absolutely committed to speaking with people, to listening with people. We know, as the member had mentioned, and you're quite right, I mean, the number that we're talking about, whether it's 10 or 11 thousand, is absolutely an incredible number that needs to be reduced.

We know that that number has increased by 55 per cent since 2008 alone. We need to do everything we can to reunite the families. That's what this government is absolutely committed with. We need to work with indigenous people; we need to work with the federal government to ensure that they have the services that are there and people are reunited in a way that makes sense for Manitobans. Provincial Sales Tax Increase Impact on Low-Income Manitobans Mr.

Bob Lagassé (Dawson Trail): Madam Speaker, the regressive PST hike hurt low -income Manitobans, but according to the interim Leader of the Opposition's quote: What I've heard from low-income earners, they're not affected by the PST increase of 1 per cent. End quote. Madam Speaker, could the Finance Minister please inform the House how the regressive tax hike by the previous government hurt low -income Manitobans? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance ): Yes, there were statements made last week in

724 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 committee by the interim Leader of the Opposition that are regret table and unfortunate. They're inac - curate. She was claiming that she had spoken to low-income earners and they were not affected at all by the PST increase when the NDP broke their word and raised that tax to all Manitobans. And I wonder whether her coll eagues feel the same as she does because I can assure her that on this issue Winnipeg Harvest does not feel the same. We know that the Manitoba labour federation does not feel the same.

They said they found the idea to be regressive of raising the PST an d that they understood that it's unequally affected those low-income earners. Madam Speaker, we know that when it comes to tax hikes, they never saw one that they didn't like. They'll stand on the necks of Manitobans every time. We will– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Dauphin Correctional Facility Construction Confirmation Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): The Dauphin Correctional Centre is nearly 100 years old. Work is now well under way for planning a new correctional facility located on the west side of Dauphin.

During Estimates last week, the Minister of Justice said that the future of this important project is now uncertain as it's being reviewed by Accommodation Services. The Minister of Justice refused to put on the record her support for bui lding a new facility in Dauphin and told me that I needed to ask the Finance Minister, so I will. Will the Minister of Finance (Mr. Friesen) today confirm the construction of a new correctional facility in Dauphin will proceed as planned? * (14:30) Hon.

Heather Stefanson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): What I said to the member is that we're conducting an overall review of capital projects in Manitoba. That is something that unfortunately has transpired as a result of the incredible mismanag ement by an NDP government previously for 17 years. They had 17 years to get this correctional institution in Dauphin done. They didn't get it done. Shame on them. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Minto, on a supplementary question. Mr.

Swan: Well, I'm surprised to see the Minister of Justice now stand up in a question she refused to answer in Estimates the other day, and this member, of course, voted against the new Women's Correctional Centre and voted against expansions at Headingley, Brandon, Milner Ridge and The Pas. The Dauphin Correctional Centre is located next to and below the courthouse in Dauphin. It's an old facility and it's only the hard work of correctional staff that keep inmates and staff safe. There's few opportunities for training or treatment, given the age of the facility.

At the same time, despite the adult population stabilizing in recent years, the adult population remains above capacity across Manitoba, including 129 per cent to capacity in Brandon and 140 per cent to c apacity in The Pas. These new beds are needed. Will the Finance Minister today agree to move the construction of the new Dauphin jail forward? Mrs. Stefanson : I first of all want to take this opportunity to thank all the staff that work very hard in our correctional facilities. We know that members opposite were in government for 17 years.

We know that this member who's asking the question is the former minister of Justice and Attorney General of the province. He had the reins under his hands –in his hands , Madam Speaker, and he had the ability at that time to move this forward and he never did. Why didn't he move it forward then? Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Minto, on a final supplementary. Mr. Swan: I'm glad the member for Tuxedo will now adm it that she voted against every single expansion in the correctional system since she arrived in this Legislature.

Madam Speaker, the only people in the Parkland who don't appear to support a new correctional facility in Dauphin are the member for Dauphin (Mr. Michaleski) and the member for Swan River (Mr. Wowchuk). The mayor and council and city administration are on side. The business community in Dauphin is on side. Parkland college, which is part of Assiniboine Community College, is on side, and the MGEU, which represents correctional workers, is on side. The community support is undisputed, and the need for this facility is clear. Will the Minister of Finance today acknowledge the importance of this

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 725 project, the safety of inmates and correctional workers and better outcomes by confirming today that a new Dauphin correctional centre will be built? Mrs. Stefanson : I know we've only been in our positions for a little over seven weeks, and I know that members opposite had 17 years to get this project done and didn't consider it a priority, which I would suspect is why members opposite were voted out, because some of these things that were supposed to be priorities never were under them. So why wasn't it a priority under them, Madam Speaker?

All of a sudde n, they're standing here demanding that it be a priority when they had 17 years to get it done and they never got it done. Highway 395 Need for Upgrade Mr. Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I would like to discuss with the Minister of Infrastructure Highway 395. Highway 395 runs between Snow Lake and the new Lalor mine that is run by HudBay Minerals. This is an old road which has serviced smaller mines, smaller production mines in the past, but the Lalor mine ramp-up is resulting in Highway 395 getting large volumes of heavy truck traffic and is reported to be in bad condition.

Will the minister of transportation commit to investing in the infrastructure required for our mining industry to work at its best? Hon. Blaine Pedersen (Minister of Infrastructure): I thank the member for Flin Flon for bringing up this issue. And one of the things that we have undertaken in the Department of Infrastructure is that, about six years ag o, the former government cut the maintenance budget of all provincial highways. We're now seeing the net result of this. When they failed to maintain highways, they are in the condition that he describes now.

If they had maintained these these budgets on–maintenance budgets, the highways would be in much better condition. And this is a problem that we will have to work with ongoing. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, on a supplementary question. Mr. Lindsey: Madam Speaker, I have a letter from Bill from Snow Lake that he had sent to the Minister of Infrastructure. Local residents use Highway 395 for hunting and fishing access. Bill describes the deplorable conditions of 395, where, at points, the road can only be manoeuvered single file, and fears the road is unsafe.

Considering the highway is the route that things like explosives trucks use to access the Lalor mine, Bill's concerns are real and need to be addressed. Will the minister of transportation inv est in Highway 395 to ensure that the road safety for our local residents and Lalor mine workers? Mr. Pedersen : Madam Speaker, again, I thank the member for that question. And it just begs the question: Why didn't they maintain this road for the last six years? All of a sudden, now, much like the previous member asking about the Dauphin jail, all of a sudden, everything's a priority.

But when they were in government for 17 years, they failed to look after the roads. This government now has to pick up the mess. And we will do that. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, on a final supplementary. Mr. Lindsey: Madam Speaker, during the election, the NDP made a strong commitment to northern Manitoba roads, including investments in Highway 39, 392 and 391. Does this government plan to respect northern businesses and residents with providing the infra - structure they need? Or do they plan to do nothing and blame previous governments? Mr.

Pedersen : Madam Speak er, if I remember correctly, I think it was $600 million worth of promises in the last election that the NDP had 17 years to fulfill. Manitobans didn't believe them then. Manitobans don't believe them now. We will do the job as a new government in Manitoba. Community Places Program Status Update Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I'm wondering if the minister responsible could inform the House of the status of the Community Places Program. Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance): I thank the member for his very abbreviated question.

726 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 I'd be happy to provide a response to him on that as soon as I move my microphone. Madam Speaker, our government was proud to bring a budget that makes meaningful investments in areas that are important to Manitobans. All of us know, across the province we have so many areas in which our communities are working hard. This goes to the kind of partnerships that my colleague from Tuxedo spoke about earlier, talking about the importance of investing in communities.

I would suggest to all members that that level of investment is threatened when a government runs a $1-billion deficit. We will both clean up the financial state of affairs in the province and make meaningful investments in all of these areas for Manitobans. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, on a final–on a supplementary question. Mr. Altemeyer: What's the status of the Community Places Program, Madam Speaker? Hon. Eileen Clarke (Minister of Indigenous and Municipal Relations): Thank you for your question. Community Places is a great program.

And I know from previous years as a community and–a strong worker in my community the value of Community Places. * (14:40) I also know that –what the impact that the many cuts over the past year from the amount of funding kept coming down and down and down. And our community suffered. I'm also happy to say that Community Places – there have been many great applications this year and they have been awarded. And I'm sure communities will be hearing very shortly who the recipients are. Madam Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. Petitions? Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Government H ouse Leader): Madam Speaker, we'll be resolving into Community of Supply, but I'd like to seek leave on a couple of matters. Would you please canvass the House to see if there is leave to move the Estimates of the Department of Finance into room 254 toda y and to set aside the Estimates of Executive Council with the change to be in effect for today only? Madam Speaker: Is there leave to move the Estimates of the Department of Finance into room 254 today? [Agreed] Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, and would you also please canvass the House to see if there's leave to change the Estimates sequence such that, if the Estimates of the Department of Growth, Enterprise and Trade conclude before 5 o'clock today in the Chamber, those Estimates would then be followed by the Estimates for the Department of Families, with this change to be in effect for today only?

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to change the Estimates sequence such that if the Estimates of the Department of Growth, Enterpr ise and Trade conclude before 5 o'clock today in the Chamber, those Estimates would be followed by the Estimates for the Department of Families, with the change to be in effect for today only? Leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. An Honourable Member: No. Madam Speaker: Leave has been denied. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Well, 50 per cent is a pretty good average in baseball, Madam Speaker, so with that, I would ask that we resolve into the Committee of Supply.

Madam Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FINANCE * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (Dennis Smook): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Finance. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance): Mr. Chair, I'm pleased to be here in the Estimates Committee of Suppl y for Finance, and I would like to say that it's the honour of our government to bring

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 727 our first budget and to be able to do so in the time period in which we have proceeded. We've probably set some kind of record in Canada for being a government who's elected, installs Cabinet ministers and brings a budget within six weeks of receiving a mandate by Manitobans, and we're pleased that it's a budget that produces real results for all Manitobans.

This is a budget that demonstrates our com - mitment to getting M anitoba back on a strong fiscal foundation, and it is an important first step on a path to a better Manitoba with a stronger economy, better services and lower taxes. We are taking a process –or an approach that is based on Manitoban principles, principles of trust, principles of compassion, principles of common sense. It is a budget that gives Manitobans real information. It declares that we have every intention of balancing the budget, something we will do in our second term.

I would note that the challen ge we face as Manitobans is significant after years of overspending on the part of our predecessors, a record that has resulted in a growing debt and increase in taxes. It's resulted in increased debt servicing costs, and that means that there are increasi ng impacts on front -line services. But,

whereas that important work of keeping the growth of expenditures in check was neglected, we will achieve that, and we're pleased, even in this first budget, to be able to produce a budget that keeps expenditure growth under 3 per cent. We know that our predecessors outspent their planned budget each and every year for the last 10 years. We know that, as a result, the net debt in the province of Manitoba doubled from $10 billion to $21 billion, and we know that thei r lack of progress on fiscal matters resulted in Manitoba's first credit downgrading in 30 years.

We are looking at a billion -dollar deficit, which is the largest in our province's history, and it's a challenge not just for this government but indeed a challenge for all Manitobans. We have said in our budget–and I will restate here –that the path ahead is not one of harsh austerity. Those kinds of measures will not work considering the challenges that our province is facing in the delivery of social services. Our education results are lacking in the area of literacy, science and mathematics. We know that we have over 10 –over 12,000 children in the care of family services agencies.

We know that we have the– some of the highest instances of child poverty. We know that, in this province, we want to be transparent with Manitobans –that is a value that we believe in–on where we are at, transparent with them on where they are going, and, indeed, that is why we chose to bring a budget at this time, to give Manitobans important information early on in our mandate. We intend to keep our promises. We intend to invest in front-line services and we intend to keep our commitment to invest in infrastructure in at least a billion dollars per year of investment.

That is investment for roads, for bridges, for schools, for hospitals, for universities, for municipalities. But we know that we must bend the curve on spending in order to achieve these things, and that is why, in this budget, revenue is projected at 3.4 per cent but expenditure is down to 2.7 per cent. This is a new course for Manitoba. It is a course that includes not making a draw this year from the Fiscal Stabilization Account,

whereas that account was used in past years, not in principle, but to rather shore u p the fortunes of a government that was overspending. We have chosen not to take a draw. We will not obscure the numbers using that method, but we will make real gains, on behalf of all Manitobans, reducing the expenditures. We have been pleased to includ e in this budget changes to the Seniors' School Tax Rebate that will focus on those seniors who require that assistance most.

We will additionally administer the Seniors' School Tax Rebate through the CRA, which will save our province millions and millions of dollars over time and almost a million dollars each and every year. We will immediately remove 2,770 low-income Manitobans from the tax rolls beginning on January the 1st, 2017, when we will index the basic personal exemption. This too was a basic ch ange that our predecessors could have brought, but chose not to year after year.

There are no new tax hikes in Budget 2016, but we have this permanent tax break built in with the–to keep up with the cost of living by ending bracket creep by indexing our tax brackets. At the same time, we are reducing the core deficit by 12 per cent this year. We–as I stated, we have brought a budget in a few short weeks because we wanted to return the Province to a normal cycle for delivering budgets in the spring. This is when we should be considering budgets; this is when we should be sitting in the departmental Estimates. * (15:00)

728 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 So we know that this is a first step. We believe it provides real evidence to Manitobans of where we're going. It's not just about gestures ; it's about significant steps forward, and it's about indications of where we will yet go, all of which will be done in order to make resources flow to front -line services and in order to put Manitoba on a stronger fiscal path. I would want to add that, at the same time, we are following through on key pledges that we have made. We are going to reduce ambulance rates in the province of Manitoba.

We have among the highest ambulance rates in all of the country. We know that we need creative solutions, and w e need them now in respect of providing personal -care homes in Manitoba. It is taking too long to build personal -care homes; we have an aging population. Manitoba Centre for Health Policy, among other experts and think tanks, are warning that we need to get this right or we will not have the capacity to meet the growing number of seniors who are aging in the province of Manitoba.

You know, when it comes to families, we are helping families that are low income in terms of our changes to the Rent Assist pr ogram that will raise those allowances to 75 per cent of median market rate. We are providing additional incentives to establish and build child care in the province. The wait times right now for child care are also over 10,000 in this province. Those numbers doubled under our predecessors, and we need real solutions and now. Our government is not taking an ideological approach; we're taking a practical approach.

We believe in principles like value for money, and we will introduce those calculations in all areas of government investment. At the same time, when it comes to families, we are supporting reduced wait lists for the Children's disABILITY Services and increasing resources to help victims of crime. As I mentioned, there are many investments that this budget brings, but the time is now to act. Clearly, we saw the warnings a year ago from international bond rating agencies.

They had referenced what they called adjustment fatigue on the part of our predecessors who weren't moving to meet their targets on reducing the deficit to balance. These are challenges. A $1-billion deficit that we are working against is a challenge, but as we have said, in the same way that Manitobans have always risen to the challenges that have confronted them, at this time, in Budget 2016, our government will also rise to the challenge, move Manitoba on to a more solid financial footing, invest in front -line services and grow the economy in a sure and stable way. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? Mr. James Allum (Fort Garry -Riverview): Yes, Mr. Chair, I just –put a few points on the record to begin with and because we want to get right down to work.

It's our intention to have a productive, probably extended conversation with the Finance Minister over the days ahead, and we want to explore with the Finance Minister many areas of the budget and many areas of the Estimates, not only as they relate to Finance, but the –how the budget relates to the government in general and its impact on the province and on the people of Manitoba. Of course, I want to begin by simply con- gratulating him on his appointment as Minister of Finance.

I know the member from Morden- Winkler to be an upstanding individual, and I have no doubt that we will have a good, productive discussion between our side and himself in terms of trying to get some real information and some real answers to our questions. Of course, I would indicate through you, Mr. Chair, to him, that this is the Estimates process and not question period, so we are looking for substantive answers to questions. But all that aside, I certainly want him to know that I congratulate him on his appointment, and I know that it's a happy moment for him.

So I know that it's a happy moment for his constituents. I certainly know it's a happy moment for his family, and so I want to acknowledge that in our opening remarks. I also want to say that I had the opportunity to be legislative assistant to the minister of Finance, upon being elected for the first time in 2011, and I got to know members of his department very well. Some faces have changed; some remain the same. But I want to acknowledge the exceptional staff that exists in the Department of Finance.

I know the deputy minister is an outstanding deputy minister, and I know that many of the other senior members of the staff are outstanding public servants, and I –so I would want them to know that we, on this side of the Chamber and on this side of the table, not only have a great deal of gratitude for the work that they did with us over our 17 productive years in government, but also that they are fine people in and of

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 729 themselves, and I would want them to know that before we start. And, with that, Mr. Chair, that w ill conclude my brief opening remarks. * (15:10) Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic from –for– from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for a department in the C ommittee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 7.1.(

a) contained in resolution 7.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. F riesen: I'm pleased to be joined at the table this afternoon with: Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr.

Jim Hrichishen; also at the table are–is the secretary to Treasury Board, Lynn Zapshala -Kelln; we have Giselle Martel, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Fiscal Management and Capital Planning, Treasury Board Secretariat at the table; and at the end we have Chester Wojciechowski–am I anywhere close, and I apologize to him on the pronunciation of his name. I'm endeavouring to get that one right having mastered Zapshala -Kelln. I am now working on other surnames of senior staff and, of course, he is the executive financial officer of financial administration shared services corporate services division.

These are the senior positions we have around the table. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion. Mr. Allum: A global discussion, please. Mr. Chairperson: Is that agreed? [Agreed] It is agreed that questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner with all resolutions to be passed once questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Allum: As I said in my opening comments, we have many, many areas we want to explor e with the Finance Minister over the day's ahead.

But I think for today, at a minimum, we want just to talk about the alleged $122 million in savings that the Finance Minister proclaimed on budget day. It's metaphorical, of course, but he was, you know, practically on top of the shoulders of the Golden Boy telling Manitobans he'd saved $122 million, and he'd done it through hard work and the dint of hard labour, and then we asked for details about that savings and, of course, he didn't have it. And then we–the media asked, in addition, for details around the $122 million and we didn’t get it.

And then over the course of the past 10 days we got primarily three different stories, and it's there I'd like to start with the Finance Minister. Mr. Chair, if he could just tell us why on day one he was not able to tell the people of Manitoba where these alleged $122 million came from. Mr. Friesen : I welcome the opportunity to talk about the efforts that our government has under - taking and indeed are under way in order, as I said in my opening statement, to reduce the out -of-control spending growth within government.

And I think that the member would acknowledge that, really, it's the duty of government to be able to constantly look at its expenditures, and they must ultimately match against revenue increases. Otherwise, what happens over time is that we see deterioration. And where we see that deterioration, of course, is in the delivery of services. Now the member must understand and accept the context of thi s is that when he's looking for further information about the numbers we've pro - vided, I'm happy to provide that further explanation.

He's aware that the government brought a number that they had stated as a deficit number for the coming year. And that number was not correct. It wasn't an accurate figure. So I think that the member is probably referring to the work that was undertaken to properly state that number on deficit projection. Now we will understand that the government, in their March 8th updat e, had produced a number where they had indicated expenditures, and I believe that number was stated as 13 billion 450 dollars .

However, that number did not reflect basically an initiative undertaken by the NDP government where they said they would find $215 million in savings. But there was no form to that initiative; there was no strategy. There was no work undertaken, and there was no comprehensive exercise that was waiting in the wings by which the government would achieve this intended target.

730 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 Now, if we also consider then that in past years this same government had been unable to actually reduce their expenditures –in fact, they were over - spending every year –then our government did what we should have done, and that was we simply took the impact of tha t $215 million and we stated it. We had to state that and to add it to what they had indicated as expenditures. Now that would bring the total revised expenditure line to $13.665 billion. That would reflect a 3.7 per cent increase in spending over the forecast for '15-16.

So we went to where the government was unable to go, which was looking at that real number and then working backwards from that line. So that new number would have been, then, $13.665 billion. It would have meant a much higher deficit, a nd from that total deficit number of $1.012 billion, I believe that our government has been successful even initially in this budget of finding some areas of reductions. And these are deficit reductions that we have achieved. And we've been proud of the work that we have achieved thus far. And of course it's all hard work. I mean it's the work that government undertakes.

I will provide more detail. * (15:20) But I wanted to start by indicating that right off the top we've led by example as a government and, that is, we reduced the size of government. Our predecessors had a Cabinet of 18 members. We have reduced the number of members in our Cabinet to 12 with the associated reductions in political or technical staff. That savings results in $4 million. That's just one area of savings that I believe the member's referring to in his question. Mr. Allum: Well, we're going to explore all of those areas in the next hour or two, Mr.

Chair, but I didn't really get an answer from the Finance Minister and I'm–and given the complexity of the answer he just provided, it's no wonder that the government had a hard time over 10 days articulating where this alleged savings of $122 million came from, in fact, so wrapped up in the –in details that strike me as being quite extraneous to an explanation that was kind of like answer avoidance 101.

So let me ask the Finance Minister, then, during the course of the past 10 days there were at least four different stories about where the $122 million in alleged savings came from , and so let me ask him about the first one, which is the director of communications for Cabinet communications sent a note quite explicitly to the media, which many of us became privy to, in which she indicated that the alleged $122 million related to $52 million in new revenues and $70 million in lapsed spending. Can he tell me why she gave that answer if that was not the correct answer? Mr.

Friesen: I do want to provide information that will further answer the member's question, and so I'm going to go back to his previous question and give him a little bit more detail on some of those areas of deficit reduction that we have already been able to achieve. I referenced the reduction of Cabinet resulting in $4 million, consider that's already in our first mandate, a savings of almost $20 million, and that's significant. Yes, it means more work with a more limited technical staff, but this is the work that we agreed to take on and we are honoured to do it.

But I wanted to speak, then, of another area of achieved savings, and that is this area of the Seniors' School Tax Rebate. And, as the member knows, our predecessors made a promise that I won't char - acterize here, but it was a promise to Manitobans that was a challenge because it was a promise made knowing they weren't anywhere near balancing the budget and it was a promise made in the context of understanding that their election fortunes were looking increasingly bad. And in that context, with no money in the bank, they promised to seniors to more than quadruple the rebate that they would be eligible for.

Now, we simply looked at that, and from a principled point of view and from a tax policy point of view we felt it to be unjustifiable and, indeed, so do many other groups and agencies who have chimed in on our changes to the SSTR in the time since we delivered our budget on May the 31st. So the changes essentially we would bring is to maintain that rebate to a maximum value of $470 per eligible senior. I want to remind the member that with the changes we have made still 3,400–34,000 seniors are eligible for the rebate and that the average rebate return to a senior who is eligible is still $300.

But we know that now by applying an income test we have made sure that those seniors who need it will receive it and those, clearly, who could live without it will. So the –this is a change that will immediately save government $44 million, and it's a savings, of course, that we know is repeated over time and going forward. So I would suggest that the changes that the predecessors had identified and wanted to bring into

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 731 place were not ones that this province could sustain. They are not ones that really reflect the needs of seniors. The seniors have told us that they want better access to health care. They want to have access to ERs when they need them. They need access to personal-care home times. In each of these metrics Manitoba is not leading the nation; they are lagging the nation. And so, as we have said, we're able to show some savings to government. Where do those savings go? These savings go to front-line services to help us deliver the services that seniors depend on.

Mr. Allum: As I said in my other two questions so far, we'll be exploring the list of alleged savings that the Finance Minister keeps referring to. To date, he's at 48 million out of 122, but we're going to go through each of those items individually and we're going to be expecting a lot more detailed information than he is providing. But what we're starting here with is a basic political question and about transparency and accountability that he campaigned on.

I asked him, just a minute ago, about the explanation provided by the director of communications from Cabinet Communications, and it's discouraging for members on this side of the t able and, I think, for the new MLAs across the table that are part of his government to see the Finance Minister failing to answer questions–direct questions put to him –in an indirect fashion. So I would invite him to ask–answer the question more directly if he could. So let me return just quickly to the director of communications and the explanation that she gave. Mr.

Chair, what I'd like the Finance Minister to do is to answer the question, was she wrong in the answer that she gave, yes or no. Mr. Friesen: I thank the member for the question. And I want to assure him that, as we have said so many times, our government is interested in transparency. We are interested in openness, and where, for too long in this province, that was not the order of the day, we will do the heavy lifting to restore that trust of Manitobans who have had their trust betrayed in that way.

The member has asked for us to quantify the deficit reduction areas in–which he have talked about, and that is precisely the detail that I am providing for him in this context. So the next area that I'd like to speak about, in terms of fleshing this out for him is the benefit that accrues to all Manitobans by having that same Seniors' School Tax Rebate I just spoke about earlier centrally admini stered. So

whereas previously the NDP government had set up this program and then set up a separate office at expense to Manitoba taxpayers, we have chosen a different path. * (15:30) And, with a stand-alone office, if I can refer to it that way, this wo uld have been an administrative office where applications were received by seniors, and then determinations would be made as to whether they were eligible to receive a rebate or not.

And then, in this same office, labels would be generated and stamps would be affixed, and envelopes would be sealed, and people would be notified of the –of a rebate that they would or would not receive, and then the same thing would happen the next year. We took a different view.

We looked at the efficiencies that we were try ing to build into the system, because this was also a government even in its early days that has talked about the importance of finding efficiencies, using innovation to drive change, looking for savings the way any business owner looks within their own operation to find savings, something that Manitobans do every day. It's something that Manitobans do in their house - holds. So, in the same way, as soon as we could apply an income test, we knew that there were additional opportunities now available to this government. We approached CRA.

CRA, of course, has the infrastructure; they have the resources. This is the work precisely that they undertake right here in the city of Winnipeg–I believe it's in the city of Winnipeg, here, that they would have that in their Lagimodiere office. And so, as a result of those conversations and that agreement, now Manitoba will save –will pay a stipend, will pay a fee, have these services performed, and the savings will be in excess of $900,000 each and every year. That means that, where there were ten temporary seasonal workers, they will no longer be in place in that stand- alone office.

And now we have, of course, in this way, made sure to focus that rebate on those low - and middle-income seniors who most require the support. So we're able to do two things: we're both able to make sure that we are proceeding on principle, making sure that that tax rebate program is truly there for those seniors who need it, but we're also

732 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 able to get to the savings that are so important to government. I know it's early in our mandate, but we hope that it is more than just a gesture. We hope that Manitobans will understand that it indicates in some way how we will continue to try to get better value for money on behalf of ratepayers, on behalf of taxpayers so that our system remains strong and so that we make the investments that we need to in front-line services. Mr. Allum: Well, I guess, Mr.

Chair, since the Finance Minister won't answer the direct question put to him, I'll just simply say that I guess the director of communications' response to the media around the $122 million was, in fact, wrong and incorrect. And if he won't say it, I will.

Which only goes to show, I would suggest to him, quite strongly that, in fact, right from the get-go, from the day that– budget day, when he announced that there would be $122 million and he was down in the –having a big briefing with the media, he claimed that it came through a extraordinary amount of hard work on his part to find the $122 million that, in fact, he never really knew what the $122 million was about. Because next we have–the next explanation we received was from the Premier (Mr. Pallister).

And I'm going to read a little bit from a press release that he can find –the Finance Minister can find online at CBC–in which the reporter says, and I quote: the Premier–start the quote now –said: since taking office, his transition team, seniors bureaucrats and the Finance Minister have been studying budget requests from every department. The Premier goes on to say, quote, there are literally hundreds of examples we have acted to reduce expenses, unquote. Could the Finance Minister table that list of hundreds of examples that the Premier was referring to? Mr.

Friesen : I just wanted to add to my previous answer, as well, that I noted that, after we made the changes to the Seniors' School Tax Rebate and applied the income test, I believe, on the same day that the budget was delivered, the interim Opposition Leader went into the hallway and spoke to the media and said that, in principle, she agreed that preventing wealthier seniors from receiving a property tax rebate was a good idea. I think she indicated she took no quarrel with it and that she was not concerned.

And I note that this is not the same language by– being used by all members of the opposition, but I would underscore for them that it is the language that was used by their interim Opposition Leader. So I see at least some of the members of the opposition see the merit in the changes that we brought, changes that were based on recognizing that tax policy needs to be principled, needs to be –needs to take t he long view and not the short view.

And I would welcome other discussions with this member on those items because I believe that we have opportunity in this province to look at our whole tax regime and to look at other jurisdictions and to learn from ot hers and to adopt best practice. We have some great practices here in the province of Manitoba. I think what is needed is always a careful eye and to make sure that our conversations proceed from a place of reason and principle. And, so, I welcome those conversations as well.

Further to the discussion we were having on the previous question by the member, where he asked for additional detail about the areas in which we've been able to find deficit reduction gains, I wanted to reference as well the $5 mill ion that we've reflected in our budget, which is a reduction through the Building Manitoba Fund. And I thought that that would require additional detail, as well, so it was properly understood.

And the member will know that, with The Municipal Taxation and Funding Act in the province of Manitoba, there is a legislative requirement that one seventh of the provincial sales tax be directed to the Building Manitoba Fund, which is the principal fund by which municipal government invests for infrastructure. And so, in my early discussions with senior departmental officials, it was revealed that the projections on retail sales tax revenue, provincial sales tax revenue, were off. There had been some deterioration in those numbers. And you'll see those if you compare year to year.

And so, because there's this legislative requirement, it means that one seventh of this revised PST revenue is slightly decreased from what the government would have targeted a year ago in terms of where they thought that level of investment would be at. And that means that, now, there's this decreased projection from the stated amount in the March 8th outlook that the previous government brought. And that's a savings to government of $5 million. But I would also suggest that the member should understand, because we're setting context here early

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 733 in our discussions, and I would want him to understand that this process is dynamic, and it is not static. It's not a process to reduce a deficit that stops at the point in which the budget is introduced. * (15:40) Rather, I would suggest that in many respects, it starts at the point the budget is introduced, and that it is the normal process of government in the Treasury Board, as orders -in-council are brought, that these expenditures are consider ed. I believe that we have created the framework.

We've sent messages to the department, and we'll continue to watch the expenditures as those requests are received. Mr. Allum: Yes, Mr. Chair, I just want to reiterate for the Finance Minister that I've as ked him now three direct questions, and instead we've got answers that are misdirection and hardly satisfying. We're trying to get to the bottom of the fact that on budget day, the Finance Minister proclaimed from the rooftop of the Legislature that he ha d found $122 million in savings. He was asked to provide a list of what those savings are; he was not able to do so.

In the days following, he gave a –there–we got a series of different explanations. One day, it was the director of communications saying it was composed of two elements: $52 million in revenue, $70 million in lapsed spending. And then the next day, as I just said, reading from a piece in CBC, the Premier (Mr. Pallister) contradicted that particular expla - nation and said there were literally h undreds of examples–hundreds of examples –where they had acted to reduce expenses.

So I want to ask the Finance Minister now, if he doesn't mind: Will he table the list of literally hundreds of examples where he has reduced expenses? Mr. Friesen: I want to assure the member that I'm happy to provide additional detail, as I indicated in terms of–he asked a question to ask us to quantify where deficit -reduction areas have been identified and where we've been able to reduce that deficit down, and this is the work that we have begun. I emphasize, again, that the work is dynamic; it is not static. It does not stop at the point in which the budget is completed.

In many respects, that indicates a jumping -off point, because I know the member understands t he process by which Treasury Board receives requests for spending. And Treasury Board, after, of course, a minister in a department has seen the same information and has ratified it, it goes for consideration at Treasury Board. And he understands as well that Treasury Board meets on an ongoing basis and that, all the time, these areas are studied, these requests are contemplated and government makes decisions about those requests.

Now, I want to give him the confidence so that he understands that when our government makes strong statements about the need to measure value for money, we make strong statements about the need to bend the curve of out -of-control spending downward. When we make strong statements about talking about matching revenue growth to expe n- diture growth–or you could say it the other way around: matching expenditure growth to revenue growth to make sure it does not exceed–that these are signals.

They are indicating to everyone within government what the new tone is, and I would acknowledge it takes far more than tone to get results, but I would say to him that it is significant. We have been able to already in our budget find these various areas where we've been proud to find some areas of savings. We know that it'll take much more heavy lif ting, but we are committed to all Manitobans to go on making these same decisions, asking the same questions, inviting all our partners within government to work with us.

A system that is this large, like any smaller system, is one that must consistently b e turned and looked at from other angles to indicate where opportunities arise. And I would suggest that there are opportunities within government. One that we found, in particular, relates to schools and universities. Now, I would state for the record a nd at the outset that we're very proud as a government to have been able to maintain education funding for our K -to-12 schools at 2.55 per cent.

We have invested in universities at a 2.5 per cent increase, colleges at 2.0 per cent increase, and we have mai ntained all of those funding amounts to schools at the –and I would additionally highlight that when it comes to advanced and adult learning that we have an increase there of 3.4 per cent, and that is comparing the printed–the budget to the 2015-16 adjusted both. So we're pleased in that. At the same time, we were able to reduce requested increases in lieu of various grants and other items in order to also achieve a $9 million of savings.

That includes reduced increases to various grant lines and changes in the implementation timing of various programs. So now the member can add that to his list as well and indicate as well that this is another area and another appropriation in which we've been able to

734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 identify and achieve some desired outcomes in terms of reducing expenditure. Mr. Allum: I remind the Finance Minister, through you, of course, that I haven't asked about the details yet. We're going to get into those in due course. What I'm trying to get from him is a straight answer to a very straight questi on about why the answers kept changing over the course of 10 days with respect to this alleged $122 million in savings.

The first answer–explanation that was given was from the director of communications: the Finance Minister has conceded by non- answering the question, I suppose, that that answer was wrong and that one can only assume that there was some attempt there to mislead the people of Manitoba as a result. The next answer that was given was by the Premier (Mr. Pallister) of this province. He said there are literally hundreds of examples of reductions and expenditures that might help us to add up to the $122 million.

By not answering my question again, by not tabling that list of hundreds of examples, the Finance Minister gives us no other reason but to conclude that, in fact, that was also an attempt to mislead not only the Chamber, but the media and the people of Manitoba that also was not a true, correct, honest answer. And that's greatly disappointing for a government who said that they were going to be the most transparent and accountable, and yet have been anything other than transparent and accountable.

Perhaps the Finance Minister doesn't know the difference between transparency and translucency, but there is a significant difference and I would suggest to you that to date, his answers have been translucent, not transparent. * (15:50) Then, finally, we received yet another explanation for the alleged $122 million. This included a press release that had, at its core, one, two, three, four, fiv e, six different elements. Certainly not the two elements that the director of – communications director talked about. Certainly not the hundreds of examples that the Premier referred to but a list of six items here.

But it only added up to $108 million, Mr. Chair. So can the Finance Minister tell us now, why the discrepancy? Why, on budget day, did he get out and say there was $122 million in savings that he personally took credit for for finding? He gave us two misleading answers and then ultimately came out with something else that doesn't even add up to $122 million. Can the Finance Minister please tell this committee–and he's not just telling the opposition, he's telling his own members of his own government here, who I'm sure would like an explanation about this as well–why the discrepancy?

Why say, on budget day, $122 million and have no answers, and then why, 10 days later, say $108 million? And as a result, there's no similarity between those two numbers. Why, again, is he not being transparent between–with the people of Manitoba? Why? Why, Mr. Chair, the difference between $122 million on budget day that he proclaimed so proudly and then a sheepish $108 million 10 days later? Mr. Friesen : I appreciate the question from the member.

You know, as I've stated for –already in these proceedings this afternoon, this government cares about transparency, and I would suggest that if the government didn't care about transparency, we would not have proceeded with such great haste shortly after election, an o verwhelming mandate given to us by Manitobans electing more members to this Chamber than at any other point. I would suggest we would have had options to be less transparent. We wouldn't have had to bring a budget in the early days of our mandate. We could have chosen to bring one in the fall.

But we chose to do so now because we felt like it was important for Manitobans to really understand where we were at as a province. And so that's why we did what we did. It's also why we have contained in this budget the real impacts of our predecessor's pattern of overspending.

And I find it surprising that the member keeps coming back to use the terms of transparency when, clearly, you know, when we look at the context, they were a government that, just a year and a little bit ago, brought a budget in this province, pointed to a deficit target that they said would be $422 million, and indicated that they felt that they were on track to achieve that. And we ask questions in the House, we ask questions in committee, w e ask questions at the Public Accounts Committee.

But, truly a surprise to all Manitobans, when they went back in their March 8th update and revised that deficit number by hundreds of millions of dollars, and now we see that the true impact of their oversp ending exceeds $1 billion. I would suggest to the member that, if he was truly interested in transparency, that he should've

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 735 spoken to the former finance minister about the way he was presenting information and the numbers that he was presenting. So this is a –it's an enormous challenge for all Manitobans to be facing down a deficit of more than a billion dollars. We're pleased to bring a real budget, a budget that presents comprehensive information, both on core government and

summary, showing the impa cts of the performance of other aspects of government – government business enterprise, and showing those numbers on both those lines. And it's a real challenge for all of us, that's why the work cannot wait and that's why, in this budget, we have undertak en to roll up our sleeves, get right to work. I want to remind the member that, you know, our interim budget group was hard at work working with the department.

I would echo his sentiments that this province is well-served by those– by our department in this area, and I would be remiss if I didn't take the opportunity early in these discussions to mention that fact. I've been so pleased to get to know most people and to even get most of their names correct in pronunciation. But I can tell you that, each and every day, it is my pleasure to work with these people, as I know that my predecessor has said as well. And so we are–we're well resourced in this province and the need is now.

So that's why we have brought a budget that keeps expenditure growth under three per cent while revenue growth is in excess of that, and that is a path that is a –it's a course correction that was needed, and a course correction that we are bringing. Mr. Allum: We'll have plenty of time to explore the Finance Minister's phony, bloa ted deficit in the days to come. We're not going to do that right yet; there's more to talk about with respect to the $122 million– or the alleged $122 million, which turned out to be $108 million.

So I would suggest to him that he was anything but transparent and, then, that he was misleading the people of Manitoba when he proclaimed from the top of the Legislature that he himself had found $122 million in savings by the dint of his eagle eyes and hard work and, yet, he'd done no such thing, and that ever y answer that we've received to -date has been a fabrication and a fiction of his imagination, all desperately trying to contrive a $122- million figure that didn't exist in the first place, doesn't exist now and that the best –the best they could do to provide explanation to the people of Manitoba was to cobble together an incomplete list that only added up to $108 million. * (16:00) So you can understand, Mr.

Chair, why on this side of the table –this side of the table of this committee would be perplexed by a Finance minister who pretends toward transparency and accountability and, then–yet, demonstrates none of those particular attributes. He has not been transparent and he has not been accountable. The fact of the matter is he has not been forthright with the people of Manitoba in trying to come to terms with this alleged $122 million that turned out to be only $108 million. And now we're going to explore that $108 million if the –we could get the Finance Minister's ear.

And we're going to go through their very slim press release that had no particular background or with any particular details in it, not unlike when he came forward in the theatre downstairs to talk about his phony, bloated deficit. And when asked about it, he had no details to talk about that either, Mr. Chair.

And so it's been one series of events after another in which the Finance Minister, instead of being straight with the people of Manitoba, instead of being forthright with the people of Manitoba, has twisted himself up into a political pretzel trying to explain something for which there actually is no answer because it's a fabrication and a fiction of his own imagination. Now, one area where he might claim some– some–authenticity around this is reducing the size of Cabinet. We can concede that they've gone from 19 to 12 Cabinet ministers. But can he tell us now, could he please break down the $4 million for us?

How did he get to $4 million in savings in relation to the reduction in Cabinet? Mr. Friesen : I'm happy to provide another answer for the member. I don't accept the premise of his question. He talked about –he used the term fabrication. I would indicate to him in strong terms that a billion-dollar deficit, as it's been laid out in the budget, is clear. It is substantial . It's in writing. You see the decline. You see the number under the 2015 budgeted amount at $422 million. You see that 2015-16 forecast stated as $1.011 billion. There's nothing phony; there's nothing fabricated in that number.

And you see the areas that we have been able to achieve where we've reduced that number in our budget for 2016- 17. Even on the

summary line, arriving at $911 million. On the core line, I think it's $890 million, and none of that is fabricated.

736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 I can assure you that for those senior s who will continue to collect a rebate, the province of Manitoba, there's nothing fabricated about that. I can assure him that by having CRA administer that rebate program, there's nothing fabricated about that.

I can assure him that when it comes to the Building Manitoba Fund and the legislated requirements to invest in infrastructure at 1.7 per cent, simply by virtue of the fact that the revenue projections are off, and we could have a conversation as to why those revenue projections are off, that $5 mi llion accruing to government, there's nothing phony or fabricated about that. I'm endeavouring to understand the nature of his question. He seems to suggest that no exercise could ever proceed to be able to find savings in government. I don't accept the premise.

I know that his own government –I'm suggesting it might have been in the 2013 budget but I could be wrong– indicated a strategy. It was a–might have been 2012 and I–but it was a strategy where they endeavoured to reduce spending across core government by 1 per cent. The reductions that we have already been able to achieve would indicate about 1 per cent savings across government. So I would suggest to him it's work that his own party identified and committed to undertake. The difference is that our government will actually achieve those savings.

But let me take this opportunity, then, to point him to one means by which we intend to achieve that savings, and that is working with our partners. So as I reminded the member, the process of having government departments within their appropriations end up meeting their targets is not static work. It's not work that is fixed; it is ongoing; it is dynamic, and he understands, I know, a lot of how that process works behind the scenes. Manitobans may never see the nuts and bolts of the operation we do here to that extent.

I confess that, you know, when you sit on the opposition side you do not see those nuts and bolts of the operation of government in the same way. And so being on the government's side and understanding how every spending request is reviewed, the first thing I would want to point the member to is more along the line of the tone that we have provided in our expenditure -management memo. And that is –that's a memo that we produced and sent to all depa rtments immediately upon election. We didn't wait.

We wanted to send the message that now was the time for ministers and deputies and senior staff within departments to begin to be looking hard at every area of expenditure, and asking themselves whether this was critical or whether it's something where they could manage savings. I have been pleased at the response to that memo thus far and I am optimistic about where it will still take us in the future. Mr.

Allum: It's disappointing to me that I asked the Finance Minister a question around the reduction in the size of Cabinet, including associated political or technical staff, which he claims is at $4 million –just asked him in this, the Estimates process, this is not question period, this is Estimates–asked him to break it down how he arrived at that $4- million question– or, number. And yet, he –he's unable or, frankly, I'm beginning to suspect, unwilling, or perhaps a com - bination of both, to answer even the simplest question that we're offering up today, and it continues to be a disappointment.

So can I ask him, if he refuses to break down the $4 million in savings for us on the reduction in the size of Cabinet, can he tell us right now how many deputy ministers have been hired across government to date? Mr. Friesen: Yes, I'm happy to provide that detail to the member in terms of the achieved savings in the area of reducing the size of government. It's what I referred to before as leading by example and, as I indicated, savings of over $4 million per year w ere captured in various departments.

I will summarize them for the member here: in Executive Council, three FTE reductions; in Agriculture, one –I'm speaking of full -time equivalent employees; in Finance, eight; in the area of Families, five FTEs; in Growth, Enterprise and Trade, five FTEs; in Sustainable Development, two FTEs; in Indigenous and Municipal Relations, three FTEs; in Sport, Culture and Heritage, four; in the Department of Infrastructure, two; in Education and Training, five; in Health, Seniors and Active Living, four. * (16:10) I would add for the member that these reductions reflect ministerial special assistants, executive assistants as well as some administrative support, policy communications and related positions.

This includes both salary and benefits reductions of $3.69 million and operating budget reductions of an additional $335,000. I remind the member that this was done in respect of reducing the number of ministerial areas from 18 to 12 but also, along with these savings, we've creat ed increased alignment

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 737 between areas of function and so, over time, as our predecessors continue to hive out function and contain it in different areas, we're interested in creating alignment. We've heard from far too many stakeholders in groups, includi ng municipalities, who talked about tremendous obstacles to be able to access government, being–having to go to multiple depart - ments to find answers, to apply for programs.

We would refer to some of this as simple red tape but, you know, government can be difficult to access, and puffing up a government would–it would make it even more difficult to access. So I would suggest to the member that not only do we see financial savings on a go- forward basis that will continue to impact on successive budgets but we also see a principled approach that aligns function, that moves appropriations within areas where a minister has a good view, a deputy minister has a good range and has the latitude to be able to really oversee the department and to influence function and performance.

So there's savings and there's achievement on a variety of fronts. Mr. Allum: Well, the member–the Finance Minister strikes me as being always one question behind. I didn't–that was two previous questions ago that he just answered. Ma ybe he could try to listen to what I'm asking so that he would be answering the question I'm answering at the appropriate time. What we asked was –and maybe he would answer this question for us: How many in the government are, right now, drawing deputy minister salaries? Mr.

Friesen: I'm happy to provide that detail to the member, but I want him to understand that when he asks multi-faceted questions, in the interest of being accurate, it's why I'm making sure that we're not leaving questions unanswered. A nd I know that he will give me some latitude because I'm new in my role, as he is in his, but we're working very hard here to provide the information that he's requesting. And, in all things, I know that my officials are proceeding at a lightning pace. I want to indicate to him that this is an order -in-council. This is No. 197 2016. So this is publicly available information.

But I'm going to indicate to him the appointment of deputy ministers, the first being Bramwell Strain, appointed as Deputy Ministe r of Education and Training. The second is Frederick "Rick" Mantey, appointed as Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and International Relations; that's new. Number 3 is Mr. James Wilson, appointed as the Deputy Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade; that's new as well. And then, under a

section of new titles: No. 4, Dori Gingera -Beauchemin continues as the Deputy Minister of Agriculture; No. 5, Joy Cramer continues as the Deputy Minister of Families; No. 6, Karen Herd continues as Deputy Mini ster of Health, Seniors and Active Living; No. 7, Robert Wavey continues as Deputy Minister of Indigenous Relations within the Department of Indigenous and Municipal Relations; No. 8, Fred Meier continues as Deputy Minister of Municipal Relations within th e Department of Indigenous and Municipal Relations and as the associate clerk of Executive Council; No. 9, Lance Vigfusson continues as Deputy Minister of Infrastructure; No. 10, Mala Sachdeva continues as Deputy Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage; No . 11, Grant Doak continues as Deputy Minister of Sustainable Development; No. 12, Jim Hrichishen continues as Deputy Minister of Finance and as Deputy Minister of Crown Services; and also one more, No. 13, Mr.

Michael Richards in the capacity of deputy clerk of Executive Council; and, pardon me, I would also add Lynn Zapshala-Kelln as deputy minister –Secretary of Treasury Board; and Lynn Romeo, deputy minister of Civil Service Commission. And I would just say to the member, we're doing this on the fly. Ma ny of these, and I should be clear, most of these were stated in the order -in-council. There's a few that we have just added here. So in case he's looking to compare, he will just see those few last exceptions to the list.

But if we have information to provide that would make this more accurate, we'll provide it as quickly as we can. * (16:20) Mr. Allum: I'd appreciate that from the Finance Minister. I think I heard 15 names that he identified that were drawing either deputy minister or equivalent deputy m inister's salaries, but I'm sure if there are more than the 15 that he identified, he will provide a more–a longer list, hopefully sooner rather than later. I will take him at his word on that.

I want to move to the reductions –apparently, alleged reductio ns in relation to schools and universities, which the press release estimated at $9 million. Could the Finance Minister for us today

738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 13, 2016 break that $9 million down into its constituent parts for us so that it adds up to $9 million? That is, we would like a sp ecific list of the items that make up the $9 million in education savings he is alleged to have found. Mr. Friesen: As a government, we were clear at the outset that the exercise that we are facing is one that recognizes the size of the challenge of a $1- billion deficit, that seeks initially and over time to control expenditure growth, to grow the economy and invest in front -line services.

I would suggest that theoretically the exercise would have been far easier had we inherited a record whereby we had strong investments that had resulted in the highest levels of achievement in education.

Indeed, over time –I'm a former teacher myself, 12 years in this –public school classroom in Manitoba, having taught in three different school divisions–in–over time, the results, as they are measured and compared with other jurisdictions of Manitoba students, has declined, as I noted in my opening statement, in areas of reading, science and mathematics at various levels where these skills are tested and baselined for c omparison. So the exercise that we have ahead of us would be far easier if we knew that those things were in place, but they are not.

Therefore, our government has been pleased to be able to fund education at a 1.6 per cent increase over the previous year . For context, I would want to remind the minister that we are talking about an operating budget of education in Manitoba that is in excess of $2.7 billion, represents a large part of our overall spending in government, and he has the charts and the Estimates in the budget to refer to if he wants to see that either in pie chart form or otherwise. It's very significant.

I don't say that in order to indicate in some way that $9 million is not significant, because all government spending is significant. But $2.733768 billion is good for a start, and I believe that many groups across Manitoba have seen it as such. And so while I do want to acknowledge the minister– An Honourable Member: Former. Mr. Friesen : Sorry, the member, the former minister.

I want to say that that probably will not be the first time I make that mistake in these proceedings, takes time to relearn these titles, took time in the first day I came in to committee to get to the correct side o f the table I had so worn a groove into going to the other side of the table–thank you for that correction. So I would just sum up by saying that it's not insignificant. We have been pleased to renew education's funding for schools, the K to 12 at 2.55 per cent over the previous year. We're pleased to bring funding increases to universities at 2.5 per cent increase.

We're pleased to bring increases to colleges as 2.0 per cent and we are optimistic that, as in other areas of government function, that we wil l be able to find some areas where we will be able to have effect and to bring some discretionary savings. And I, again, I invite the member to understand that this is not a static process and that over time as departments come forward with their proposals to the Treasury Board, that those proposals will be viewed through that prism of finding savings, of matching expenditures to their targets.

I think it would be very important to say we intend for our departments to hit their targets, and so this is all part of it. Other than that, though, I can certainly say to the member, if you'd like a further explanation, I would invite him to ask those questions of the Minister of Education when those proceedings will be heard in the Estimates process. Mr.

Allum: Well, there's so much in that answer, if that's what you had described that –that to unpack, and that's a favourite term of my friend from Morden-Winkler, the Finance Minister; he likes that unpacked term, and what we're trying to do is unpack his Estimates here, and he seems to want to keep it all packaged up nice and tightly and not share any of the information for the rest of us. It's delightful for me to hear him take credit for funding to K to 12 and to colleges and universities even though in his fir st four years in the House he voted against the education budget every single year.

He had no intention in those days of actually living up to any commitments made on education. But once in government he now assumes our agenda for the public education syst em, takes credit for doing so, but needs to remember that in his not -so-distant past when he was not the minister but was the very good critic for Finance for the official opposition, he voted against that very same education budget every single year, and we wouldn’t want him to forget that fact here as he's crowing about his own record on education.

June 13, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 739 And then he has referred to targets on several different occasions, but, Mr. Chair, as you know, he didn't put any targets out. This is a budget, a stand-alone, one-year budget that doesn't have targets for year 2, year 3 and year 4. In fact, again, this is going back to his failure to be transparent and clear and open with the people of Manitoba. He instead decides to fudge the numbers, talk about targets. B ut

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-1-19
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 1st hansardpdf 19.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e11132ad1dab2e2153c3fed16be05e1e633dd7a6

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