VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY mmDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 8:00 p.m. - 11:00 p. m. MONDAY, APRIL 17, 1978 NO. 31

-.. ... _ .. . ...,.,. April 17, 1978 Taoe 1096 (Night) DH - 1 The Committee resumed at S:BO P.M . ~t. Chairman in the Chair. ::R. CF:AIRHAN (~!R. YOUNG): Order, please! Heading 1401 -. 01 Ron. Minister of Justice. :lit.. H ICKl!AN: I just wish to complete my few re~rks but before doing that I have an announcement to make SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~!R. HICK~lAN: - which will be of great interest to all bon. members. :!R. PECKFOR.D: Detroit are going to beat Montreal. l!R. HICKHAN: At seven of the clock this evening I received a telephone call to advise me that the bon. member for Kilbride (>1r.

WeJ 1") rompleten t~e '~o!"ton "arat!-on, t'"::! -"111 ~- len:;:th of the rn",.""', SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! NR. DOODY: Atiother Newfoundlander got to Boston. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! l!R. HICIClll.:N: Despite the fact that he had sustained a knee injury a few days ago and it came'back on him at the end of the fourteenth mile,he finished the course, tre full course in four hours. I am sure that all hon. gentleman are delighted to hear that the only athletP who is a member of this hon. House continues to go forward to victory. SOME RON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! ~!R.

IIICKHAN: That is the only report I have. It was from a member of the hon. pentleman's family. Now, Mr. Chairman~and I will not use uo twenty minutes,! want to just very briefly refer to the other deep sea fishing town in my ui~trict. the town 3C6?

.\pril 17, 1978 Tape 1096 (~ight) DH - 2 ~ ! ?.. ~ n CD! AN: of Grand Bank, and again to indicate ~hy it is so necessary that there be full understanding by those who have jurisdiction over our fisheries as to how their policies are so relevant and so essential to the development of a good catching programme. About ten years ago it became very apparent that if the fleet that is operated by Bonavista Cold Storage Company Limited out of Grand Bank was to expand, if their operations were to be expanded~ it was vital and absolutely necessary that there be major harbour improvements.

Indeed that had become obvious, Xr. Chairman, back in the days~I can recall,when the late Senator Bradley was the Secretary of State in Ottawa and he made a very profound speech in Grand Bank in the early 1950s saying that he had plans for Grand Bank harbour that extended way beyond the bridge. That was a recognition of the need for major harbour improvements. Well, about ten years ago we carried out very extensive drilling and surveying in Grand, Bank harbour,particularly above the existing bridge, and it was decided by Ottawa that the surveys indicated some difficulties would be encountered.

It was then suggested to us that there should be a brief submitted to the then Hinister of Fisheries, lion. Jack Davis. ~ brief was prepared and submitted to the Government of Canada b y the G~and Bank town council showing the project~d growth, showing also the pleasing increase in the inshore fishery operation in the Grand Bank area and the obvious need for more harbour space if that plant was to reach its potential.

The brief was studied and not too long ago a further survey was undertaken and then at a most recent meeting between the Grand Bank town council, the Secretary of State for External Affairs and myself,the council inquire~ as to when we can expect some action to ensue. The indication is that the Government of Canada will be doing some further studies but they may put in a marine facility t h ere this y ear to aid t h e inshore fishermen. 3G68

.\!)r il ! i, 19 7 8 ::R. ~Ic:::•A:: : '!!le point I an trying to lllake, '! r. ChairMan, is this,chat :nose of the p::..ants alon g the Southcoasc oE this Province now,I think ,are looking toward ezpansion. !heir whole history of developcent, their ability to react to challen~e and to react to ma r ket changes ~i ndicates to ~e that certainly t h ese plans are on~oing. In the po res of Fortune an d Grand 3ank 1 and Grand nank in particalar~the ability £or expansion de!'ends upon a quick assumption by the Go vernmenc of Canada of their exclusive responsibility for major harbour developments .

Wi thout it we will not see that plan t continue to expand. We have a work fo rce there that in my opinion is second to none; we have a quality control programme in that plant that even the fede ra l fisheries inspectocs say that the y cannot attain the standards which have been set by the employer and the employee themselves. Whe n the downturn cam e in the market a few yea rs ago,that was the one plant that was not af~ected because their quality product was so good that the demand continued to remain. 3C69

,\.pril 17, 1978 Tape 1 0 9 7 (;I i z h

t) Dt! - t ~!r.. . A . HI C!G!AN: ~ow their opportunity for expansion is stifled,and I do hope that Mr. LeBlanc,who has responsibility not only for fisheries but for small craft and harbours,will see to it that we can get on with this very demanding and challenging job as quickly as possible. Yay I refer to t~·ro other fishing parts of my district, one which is not too well known in Newfoundland·. the area from Point 1!ay to Lawn inclusive is one of the big trap fishing areas in this Province. I suspect that La~.;n and Lord's Cover between them are two of the big inshore fishing communities in t h e Province.

A few years ago,in 1966 and 1967,that area seemed to be on the way out. Resettlement was in vogue a lot of people were leaving and going to Fortune in particular. We had a meeting there in 1970 and it was decided that we would reverse that trend because what they said,and it is a philosophy that I certainly agree with, "You give us t h e amenities you allow us to be able to commute cheaply and quickly to our place of work in Fortune, or St. Lawrence then,or Grand Bank and we will stay : ~e have but one smal~

section of the highway left to be upgraded and paved from Lord's Cove to La~m. "And the difference that that has made!The inshore fishery is increasing, Mr. Chairman, there is pretty close to full employ ment in t h at area too b ecause they work in the plants,those who are not fishin~, and during the time of the year when only the offc~ore fishing is being operated. And again, Mr. Chairman, there are some plans afoot to expand the salt codfish corporation's operation in Lawn,which has been reasonably successful to date - nd which has provided some employment,particularly durin g the inshore fisher y . 30'('0

Ap ri l 1 7 . 1978 Tape 1097 (:-light) DH - 2 ~!R. A. HICKl·ll- N: The last place that I want to refer to and I want to give a very brief report to the Committee on is <vhat has been transpiring and !·7hat is happening and what is planned for St. Lawrence. As most hon. members are aware St. Lawrence,prior to the opening of the fluorspar mines, <vas a very strong fishing community j both the bank fishery and the inshore fishery <Jere prosecuted out of that to<vn. With the opening of the mines the bank fishery dissappeared totally and the inshore fishery has not been very strong.

Following the closing of the mines the people of St. Lawrence.•at . a meeting that I attended the next day,said, ";.;e are not going to direct our attention to coming in and making all sorts of demands of government~ 1 And they said they did not want a Task Force, that they did not want to direct their attentions to anything other than the only other resource there could be upon which any industry or alternative industr y could be based,namely 1 the fishery.

And very quickly a gentleman named Captain Almeda of Portugal,who has been sailing in and out of Newfoundland ports the last two or three years­ and when I say s ailing, coming in here on occasion - came on the scene. Mr. Chairman,he is the owner, Captain Almeda is the owner of t!Jo boats about the same size as our stern draggers and they are engaged only in gill netting,mostly on the 3outhern tip of the Grand Banks,for cod.

It is a most sophisticated type of fishing. _Everything is automated,none of the product is lost,and I am told that the landings by the two Almeda boats last year doubled that of any two Canadian boats of comparable size. Captain Almeda has said h e is prepared,read y , willing and able to land h is product in St. Lawrence. Fishery Products Limited have agreed to build a plant in St. Lawrence ~ased on the assumption that Captain Almeda will be able to get the licences and land his product 3G71.

..\;nil L 7, 1978 Tape 1 0 9 7 ()I ig h

t) Dli - 3 :!~ . A . i!IC~~!A~<: there. The proposa l was v ery quickly ?Ut in writing and the studies completed.The Government of Newfoundland has. indicated to Fishery Products that we are prepared to make available the necessary f und ing that they are seeking from the provincial level. There is an application into DREE which has been studied and they too are ready I t hink to make a decision. out before an y decision is made two things must h appen in·volvin g two other agencies of the Government of Canada . Firstly, 3072

April 17, 1978 Tape 1098 (Night) 11r. Hickman: Captain D,lmprla has before the Department of Immigration an application for landed immigrant status for himself and a very limited number of crew members,who are the only ones who have had experience in this type of fishing.- because it is not kno~~ in Newfoundland, it is not known in North ll.meri ca, indeed it is not known in West German~- and other fishing nations in Europe.

And when that is approved, it is in the pipeline now and hopefully it will be because it will not take away jobs from Newfoundlanders, but rather will create:h~ •. ann it has been looked upon with a great deal of enthusiasm in Fortune-or in St. Lawrence,rather, and the Town Council and the Committee have agreed that they will certainly do their best to find adequate accommodation for any Portuguese who have to move into that community on a landed immigrant status. PK - l When that is approved then the next step, and this is the big crunch, is for Mr. LeBlanc to give two licences.

DREE cannot make a decision on the application, very properly will not make it unless they know that the two licences will be issued. sense, and it is only a sensing on my part, I sense on the part of federal officials in this Province a great deal of enthusiasm and a great deal of excitement for the proposal. But the decision is a political one. It is going to have to be made at the political level in Ottawa. All I hope is that the decision is favourable and that it comes very soon.

Because the day that that decision is made, my understanding is that Fishery Products are ready, willing, and able to start construction of that small plant. And they will find a labour force in St. La~1rence anxious to co-operate, anxious to work, and anxious to give Fiahery Products the kind of productivity that the people of St. Lawrence are capable of doing. That, Mr. Chairman, is the position of the efforts of the people of St. Lawrence to find an alternative industry and I commend them for their approach, their initiative. I am very grateful to Fishery Products that.led by a native son of St. La~1rence, Mr.

Etchegary, 3073

April 17, 1978 Tape 1098 (Night) MR. HICKMAN: they have aqreed to look at it very carefullv and definitively and positively 1and with the kind of co-operation:th~+ I am sure that the Secretary of State for External Affairs, who is the member of Parliament for Burin-Burgeo, and his colleague,the han. Romeo LeBlanc,will show for St. Lawrence that we can get on with the job, hut that is the only thing that is holding it up. Now one last thing before I sit down - MR. NEARY: The> minister is inc 1 udi nn hirnse lf 1·1hen he sa vs. 1'We v1ill get on with the job.'' MR. HICKMAN: We will get on with the job.

My colleagues in PK - 2 St. Lawrence, my friends in St. Lawrence, Mr. Etchegary, my colleage, the Provincial Minister of Fisheries and his department, we are ready, wi 11 i ng, and ab 1 e to go, just n1o sma 11 1 i cences to be issued and we are on our way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) r.uc"ans rlo~•n at Lloyd's Lake. MR. HICKMAN: ~low, Mr. Chairman, - the Lloyd'.s Lake. Now there is a thought. Would I not love to debate that. The cheapest power in North America going unharnessed. But, Mr. Chairman, one more thing.The han. gentleman for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) had a fistful of documents there today and he asked me if I would find out what it was all about. In 1962 there was security given by Fishery Products Limited to the Province of Newfoundland which included the Catalina property. In 1975 there was a consolidation of all of the indebtedness of Fishery Products Limited to the Crown, and they gave additional security which including a floating charge on all assets present and future. In 1976,when Fishery Products acquired the Marystown plant,they put up a new company ca 11 ed Fishery Products(Marysto~

m) Limited, and the shares in that company also vested in the Crown as security under the floating charge. The Catalina property -not all of the property, the meal plant for tax purposes, and this was purely for tax purposes, ~1hich any tax paying corporation is entitled to do - the property upon ~1 hich 3G74

April 17, 1978 Tape 1098 (tlight) PK - 3 Mr. Hickman: 1asica11y t he fi sh meal plant in Catali na is located vrc1s released and conveyed to Fishery Products(Marystown)Limited purel y, as I say, because there ~1ere certain tax benefits ~lhich would accrue by following that procedure. It did not in any way affect the security of the Province because all of the shares in Fishery Products (Marystown)Limited were covered by the floating charge. 3C75

t April 17, 1978 Tape No. 1099 (Night) RT-1 :·IR. HIC".t<l!A..'I: But to sum it up in one sentence, the security was not affected but, hopefully, certain tax benefits accrued to Fishery Products and/or Fishery Products (Harystown) Limited. }!R. NEARY: !-!F.. HI CIC1.Al.'l : I was right on again. Alvrays on! I move, }fr. Chairman, that the han. member for LaPoile (~x. ~eary) be called to the Bar forthwith. MR. CH...URJ1 .. "'-"<: }'R. HODDER: The han. member for Port au Port. Mr. Chairman, I was not here this afternoon.

I had wanted very particularly to be here for the Fisheries estimate but yesterday I was attending a meeting in the district of Port au Port and missed the flight and could not get one until ~oday. But I would like to say that the meeting yesterday was with upwards of some 200 fishermen and for the first time there is now a fishermen's association being formed in the district. Yesterday they elected representatives from various areas to meet and to come back with guidelines and to work on a constitution.

I might say that the meeting t~as very, very enthusiastic and the fishermen were 100 per cent for an association, and I believe that with the enthusiasm I saw at that meeting yesterday and with the large number of fishermen that were there~ I am quite sure that a good association will be formed and many good things t~ill come to pass. ~r. Chairman, I ~1 ould like to just say a few t~ords about the Fishery in Port au Port.

It is an area which has tt·ro major fishing grounds, one to the north of the Port au Port Peni~sula and on to the south, but one of the catchwords, one of the things that has always been said around the 1-l'est Coast is that there are lots of fish in Port au Port Bay and Bay St. George but there were no harbours. Something has happened to change that in recent years and t~e are hoping that in the very near future we will have to have the harbours as well because the Fishery in Port au Port is, at the present time, a fishery that is not developed to near its true potential.

That means that this is an area, I believe, that He have to concentrate on, 3G76

j. April 17, 1978 Tape ~o. 1099 (Night) RT-2 HR. HODDER: both the Federal and Provincial governments must concentrate on, because it is an area ~hich I believe can turn itself around. There is high unemployment there at the present time but, as_ the Minister well kno~s, the people are going back to the boats, and I predict that there ~ill be double the number of fishermen in the District of Port au Port and double the amount of fish taken this year to the amount taken last year, and I believe last year was double the year before.

The development v7hich is taking place at the present time - this year there were two major breakwaters built on the southern part of the Peninsula, at Rose's Brook; another one was built at Three Rock Cove on the northern part of the Peninsula; and plans are for the second one there; and at Blue Beach there are t\·10 breakwaters there with plans to open the beach itself to make a natural harbour. Tnese will be three harbours on the Peninsula which were not there before. The Community Employment Strategy Association in the District of Port au Port has now applied for $1.3 million.

The proposal was submitted to Federal Fisheries, it has passed three sub-committees in Ottawa, it has been applied for by Federal Fisheries to the !1'rowth component of Canada !~orks, and I understand it is a matter of announcing it now, and that will mean there w·ill be a new harbour and $1.3 million dollars will be spent there in the very near future.

At Fox Island River, as ~•ell, ~.,e have just seen a wharf extension there although, unfortunately, during the Winter ''e lost the main wharf but nov1 we have the extension and the Small Craft and Harbour people have committed themselves to building the 1vharf and also bringing a dredge into Fcx Island River this year 1-1hich will mean that longliners and a lot of the small boats 1vhich had trouble getting in at low tide last year will be able to get in. Now, Mr. Chairman, those facilities, of course, are not all we need but we do have active groups in 3D77

•' April 17, 1978 Tape No. 1099 (Night) RT-3 "!R. HODDER: the area who are pursuing the money and trying to develop the area. There is the Community Employment Strate~] Association. There is the Port au Port Development Association. I uould like to pay tribute to both of those groups here now because they have done a tremendous job in the area, and 3L78

April 17, 1978 Tape 1100 (Night) IB-1 MR. HODDER: I feel that if the plans that they have drawn up at the present time are fully realized that you will see that the fishery of Port au Port will become-or rather,Port au Port will become a well-known fishing area. Because, Mr. Chairman, not only do we have inshore fish in Port au Port and groundfish but it is also one of the three large lobster fishing areas in Newfoundland. Now, that is the main, I suppose, that is where the big money is going at the present time but we also have some other things working there.

We have a work activity project at Jerrys Nose on the Port au Port Peninsula which is where people who have been out of work for some time are going back and they are building new boats and they are being paid to do it and the materials are cut. They cut it themselves and they are learning how to build a boat. And then when they finish they take the boat with them and it is their boat. And I think they have turned out some eight or nine this year. They run anywhere from twenty up to thirty feet, I suppose. And from my untrained eye they look like they are tremendous boats.

And some of the fishermen who have graduated from that first ·class who had not worked for some years were the top fishermen last year out of Blue Beach. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, the problem that we are having: now I was to a meeting, as I said, of some 200 fishermen or up to 200, about 150 to 170. I did not get a chance to count them all the way they were sitting. But at that meeting yesterday they felt that the provincial Department of Fisheries was letting them down. It was stated there clearly by the fishermen.

One of the main problems and sources of contention at the present time is the roads going to the fisheries areas. If Port au Port is going to be developed, if we are going to have full employment, then we are going to need to have the proper infrastructure. We are going to need electricity at Blue Beach. The road going to Blue Beach now is a half load limit. People who are fishing in the area, they have to come up with half ton trucks. You know, it is not really paying the 3079

April 17, 1978 Tape 1100 (night) HR. HODDER: fish buyers now to get down there because the road is in such bad condition. Now I had hoped that we would get at least $100,000 this year to upgrade that road. It is seven miles long and I have said in the press and said eve~vhere else that it seems that there is some sort of dispute between the Department of Transportation and Communications and the Department of Fisheries because nobody seems to want to take the responsibility for that road • Now this year, I understand, we are going to get about $35,000 for that road and it is $35,000 wasted.

Either we take that road and build it properly- IB-2 we know it is a growing area, that the road is needed 1 so I say that the idea to temporarily repair that road because $35,000 in that particular area is not going to haul the gravel that is supposed to go on the road. done about it. And I feel, Mr. Chairman, that something must be At this moment in time the fishermen are very, very upset that are using Blue Beach with the condition of the road. Now I know it is the time of the year when the roads get soft and everything else, but that road!

I am sure the minister himself would agree that the road needs to be upgraded and tbat $35,000 is not going to do anything for it. HR. PECI<FORD: What are they doing now? Are they finished their breakwater? MR. HODDER: No. They have another $100,000 which they are waiting now, pending this under the Canada Works and then they are going to try to use that. Then they will decide what they will do with the money they have now. They are just waiting for the announcement before they decide what happens next. Mr.

Chairman, I would ~.ike to say one other thing, that people complain about how Canada Works money is used and how LIP is used but in the district of Port au Port, the last time the Canada Works money came out the Community Employment Strategy Association said, "Stop, we do not want those little projects all throughout the area," 3C80

... - April 17, 1978 Tape 1100 (night) IB-3 ~!R. HODDER: and al.l the money from the Canada Works has gone i.nto those three maj or breakwater s. Then they have been topped up by small craft harbours and then further topped up by the Community Employment Stragety Assoc.i ation. And it has been a fanta stic job. But we still have some problems,and I do not mean to be critical of Ottawa but one of the problems that we have had this year is that job creation,and by the very nature that they are job creation, are not interested i n closi ng jobs down during the Winter.

And in some ca.ses what has happened is that the people , you know, in cases where logs bad to come out of the woods or they are waiting for a pile driver to put posts down in Fox Island River or wherever it might happe .n to be, what happen ed is that the fishermen found themselves work ing, keeping pace, jus t making up time and yet they were not really doing the 3(8:1

;.;n· il 17 , 197:.; TaiJe ~;o. 1101 (::ight) :·i.ti.. J. ;,QJDi':R: proper work aud ti1ey kne~; they W'ere uot c!oing it. iUJ.a waat they have as;•ed for not; is they have asked for the pe=ission to transfer money from one job to the other. For instance,if they cannot ;;et the logs from the woods at Roses Brook, waich they were and they l~d a problem tnis ;,;inter, then perhaps these people could work over on another .r:: - 1 project WL1er:_17, tnere were the =terials,perhaps on the wi1arf at Fox Island ~iver or 1;hatever.

So what they have asked for now is the ability to be able to transfer this money from one project to the other so that it is done more efficiently. I might say also that there <;ill be an engineer - T l1ere is an advertisei:leilt in the local papers in the area now for an engineer-to supervise all those projects. So that we cia not i~ve this lazy attitude about the Canada works. I ti1ink tl~t is changing anyhow because the fishermen now know that the work that ti1ey are dcing was work for the future and they are working i1arder at the projects than they were before. And finally~ before I sit down, ~!r.

Chairman, I would llice to say this,that we need more processing facilities in the district. I would say~and this is only a rough guess on my part,but if all the fish coming off the Port au Port Peninsula and going to other areas were processed on the Port au Port Peninsula we would have full employment for the major part of the year. And for some reason or other we seem to be losing an awful lot of that and I would ask the c:inister if he would - l!R. J. HODDER: Uhere is it processed?

National Sea processes a little bit there but a lot of it is shipped off the peninsula. ~{e had a fellow there, Uni teci Haritime Fish Products. lie ~o~as a local fello~o~. He took all his and shipped it all over the place, anywhere fror .1 St. Jolm's to the ~orthern Peninsula,wi1.erever i1e could :;tot a lmyer for it. T. J. Hardy is planning to start a processit•g f.:.cility in Fox Island ;l.i ver, but at the present time that :;oes l awn to Port aux Dasques. \,'e do have a buyer now1 I believe tne 3G82

Arril. 17, l:J78 Tape ~:o. llt.Jl (C;i;;ht) J:·l - 2. ~di.. J. i:!ODDER: Inter-Fish plant is opening up at Stephenville. I believe a fellow Pike is gain;; to look after it and he lvill be buying on ti•e peninsula but again, lYhile it is going to the Bay St. ~eorge area it is going to be off the peninsula. I would like to see some facilities built on the peninsula because it would provide employment for t:1e area. But the. fis~ery is in good snape titere. There arc> lots of things we need. I heard co:!llplai.J.J.cs yesterday about problelils witi1 tile Fisi1eries Loan Board.

And another problem that I have come up against there is there has been a lot of boats uuilt there lately and they have problems getting somebody to co~~:e in to inspect the boats . .t\nd there are little things tl1at irritate the fishcmen like that and particularly the inspection of boats was brought to my attention yesterday. Eut, :1r.

Chairman, I feel that if the present trend cor.tinues and if we can get the !;upport of the Provincial Goverruuent for tile infrastructure for - I have mentioned the major areas but there are lliany small areas around the district Lower Cove, Ship Cove <>c,ere you get perhaps fifteen or twenty fishemen who are fisl1.ing in that particular area and there is a need for slipways in some places and there is also a need for fisi.J.eries access roads in various places. But I woulci urge the ~linister of Fisi1eries to help.

T..1e Fede!"al Goverr:ment has done a fantastic job Ci1ere and tne Provincial uoven1ment has not been noticeable at all. I will aci!!lit that we do get money from the Provincial Goverrune::~t. ~i"e have some slipways out not nearly enough. I would like to see the Provincial Government get in there with boti1 boots on and to help the fisher.nen and nelp those organizations which are trying so hard and I think that in a fe~;r years time Port au Port will be <mown as one of tne major fis;1ing areas in t::t.: province rather thau one of tlle aigi1 unemployment areas. Thank you, •·lr. Chairman.

The hon. ne:.tber for Trinity-Bay Je Vercie. ~~~ .. F. ROWE: i·!~:. Chai=n, I will just try very quici~ly once agaill 3C83

J:[ - 3 : ... "'... F. .iv.n:: cecausc! I :c:~o;.; tneri! are a numile::- .Jf cy colleagues - \lb , oh! Order p1eaae! The iJon. !llcWer for 'trinity - Bay cie Verde. Just for clarification ~! migh t u:ention that there are about t•.Yo and a h.Uf hours left u the Cocmittee ana as cembers of the Cot:.l!'.ittee will ;mow we do rend to go froc si<ie to si<ie • . There were c~;o speake rs r roc :::1is sioe to cy 1m recently and now t<lere :1r~ two u:ember s fr01;~ t~~ side to my right so this tends to even thin.;s out n litue i;it . T~e ~on. cember for Trinity- Bay de Verue . :IR. c. ROUE: ar .

Chairman , cher~ are a nwnoer of :ny col leagues who I know want to speak on t h is p:u:t:!.cular subject but I would li!:e to draw to the attention of cue Committee, Sir , and tbe Chairman,tP4t we !.finister of Fis~eries has failed thus far to defend his own esticaces in the Committee of Supply. T.:rls is only 3C84

April 17,1978 Tape 1102 (i~ight) AH-1 MR. F.ROWE: the second time that I lmve stood up today and I will repeat some of the questions that we have put to this ~inister during the eommittee stage of his particular estimates. Sir, instead of the minister getting up and defending his own estimates and answering the questions,what we have seen is some of the political pygmies over there such as the member for Bonavista South (Mr.Morgan) getting up and trying to paint the Opposition as being negative when we are trying to get out of the minister some answers to some very important questions.

Now today myself and a number of my colleagues have gotten up in this Committee and asked the Minister of Fisheries to straighten out once and for all what exactly is the government's policy with respect to the Nordsee-Ocean Harvesters merger and, Sir, the han. the Premier, as we know1has met secretely with FIRA, supposedly trying t? push the original deal, We have had different backbenchers on the government side come out with different ideas,and the ~linister of Fisheries himself has come out with a different formula for the Nordsee proposal and when asked where he stood,the Minister of Tourism,with respect to the Nordsee proposal , sloughed it off and he said we will have plenty of time to debate on that particular issue.

Now, Sir, I respectfully ask the Minister of Fisheries to get up and do as has been done in the past and defend the estimates of his own department instead of having hon. members and ministers on the other side getting up and consuming the time of the Committee with twenty minute speechEs about their district because they will have plenty of time to talk about that in the Budget Speech or in the Throne Speech or at some other time.

Now, Sir, I would like for the record to show that the minister has not refuted the fact that we have indicated over here that the actual increase in the expenditure of the Department of Fisheries is less than the 10.5 per cent mentioned in the Budget Speech. I have not seen any figures to argue against the figures tr~t I have presented to this Committee. The hon. minister put out a portfolio today with a whole whack of fi;;ures but, Sir, ,,e nas ,.ot .,raven that 3C85

Apr:.l 17,1978 Tape 1102 (Night) AH-2 :;R. F. ROWE: the actual increase is not in the order of 10.5 per cent but is instead, as I repeat again for revised or actual expenditurelis only four per cent, for gross expenditures it is an increase of o~ly six per cent and in the net estimated expenditures it is only 7.4 per cent- nowhere anything near ten. Now, Sir, the Minister of Tourism, the member for Bonavista South (tlr.Horgan) gets up and once again ,Sir~this is such a pathetical spectacle when ministers of the Crown get up and call on hon. members in the Opposition. "Help us out.

Tell us what policies we should have~' Now, Sir, the hen. llinister of Tourism should know better than that. We question,and hopefully criticize constructively,the policies of government and hope to alter and improve it, but it is the government that formulates policy in this Province.

And time and time and time again we have the sad spectacle of ministers of the Crown standing about saying, "Bail us out, helo us out, t~ll us what do do, tell us what to say." Well the only answer I got for the Hinister of Tourism and other ministers who have llOi.!t kind of an attitude, Sir, is if they are so anxious for positive ideas and suggestions from us why do they not just give up altogether and just change sides of the House and we will show the people of this Province what positive steps we can take in the Department of Fisheries and any other portfolio of the government 0 It is as simple as that.

Sir, the simple fact of the matter is that this administration since it has taken office in 1972 has not come up with an overall, comprehensive plan for the development of the fisheries in this Province and I would submit, Sir, further~that this administration has not sat down with the fishing industry, has not sat down with the Fishermen's Union, has not sat down with the fishermen themselves and the processors and the federal government for the expressed purpose of shaping a definite and comprehensive,overall policy for tile development of the fisheries in th~s Province.

And this is why, Sir, we have the sad spectacle of different government members and dif~erent government Cabinet ministers saying different things with respect to the ::<ordsee proposal. And still after four or five hours the l1inister of Fisheries has not stood up in this Committee stage, Mr.Chairman, 3C86

'!'ape 11'J3 (':irrht) )"'·: - 1 ro. ,..._O~·!E: and indicated to the Committee 1;hat t~e policy of this government is 1.ri th respect to the !:orcisee proposal, let alone 1<hat the policy is u ith respect to the overall development of the fisheries in this Province. ~'1'-- lL CARTER: I have not had a chance. ~~- T. ROHE: The minister ha~ had ample opportunity. Instead ~:e get · other ~on. members standing up on the opposite sicle of the l!ouse of .\ssembly covering for the minister. :1R. G. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! HR. F.

ROHE: And if the minister, Sir, had real leadership he would be bouncing back after every speech made on this side of the House and defending his policy or at least defining his policy. We have had no definition of policy from the minister)ie have gone throu~h six fisheries ministers in the last six years. The . Premier has had the portfolio two or three times and we have had several other individuals and the only thing we get, Sir, is statements in Throne Speeches. "A new programme to give better assistance to the inshore fishermen to obtain boats, gear and equipment:' Where is that great promise today?

"A special incentives programme to assist fishermen in obtaining multi-purpose boats for dragging, seining, mid-water trawling and longshore fisheries." II Another promise made back there in 1972: T,egislation with respect to a new financing approach to provide the supply of fish necessary for existing fish plants around our coast in order that they may be unilized to as near full capacity as possible!' Sir, it seems to me we heard something like that this year ·This was a promise made back in 1972~'A ne1.r Crown Corporation which 1<ill own or lease rights on a new fleet of trawlers:• That is not new stuff this year;that was said in the T:rrone Speech of 1972, Sir, The government promised again "there in 1972 they would establish a new and realistic programme of bait assistance to the fishing industry.

Hhere is the great new,inexpensive shared-cost insurance programme 3l87

~pril 17, 1978 Tape 1103 (Ni g ht) DW - 2 ~R. F. ROllE: to cover a nd to h elp fishermen cover the lost of 3ishing gear? I know the minister is going to say Ottawa would not agree. Well, Ottawa did agree and we saw what happened to several millions of dollars in this Province during the gear replacement programme. I would submit, Sir,that there are hundreds of fishermen who have lost private gear this past Spring who,because any federal assistance forthcoming would have to be based upon a minimum loss of $550,000- $1.00 per capita,I understand-that they cannot get the federal government to participate.

I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the provincial government should bring in its own shared-cost insurance gear programme,if they made the promise back in 1972, for these fishermen who have lost private gear. Sir, there have been a multitude - look, Mr. Chairman! I will do much the same as the minister did,I do not want to consume too much time of the Committee.But there are a host of promises- hundreds literally hundreds of promises contained in six separate Throne Speeches-that have not been kept in the area of the fisheries.

Promise after promise after promise,the bulk of which have come of course before by-elections or provincial elections~and have not been kept. I challenge the minister to indicate to this Committee, Sir, with proof,how many of the promises have been kept that had been stated in Her Majesty's Throne Speech. The $40 million trawler fleet, for example.

I do not know what Throne Speech that was in probably 1972 or 1973- yes, in 1973 - legislation for the establishment of a $40 million fund for the construction of deep sea water fishing boats. $40 millio~,promised legislation-the total Estimates of the Department of Fisheries 3(88

A?ril 17, 1978 T~pe 1103 (~ight) D~ - 3 : ~. F. ROWE: this year is $25 million! Now, Sir, the only thing that I can reoeat is that I am extreme~y and sincerely disappointed in the Minister of Fisheries who has such a T.V. high profile, has such a high profile in meeting ~ith the fishermen. I would submit that the hon. Minister of Fisheries probably travels and has more meetings than any other hon. mi~ister opposite. And when we come to the Department of Fisheries, which is one of the most important depart~ents in government ­ this is where the major thrust was going to be this year - the cinister has seen fit to allow his colleague to 3C89

7 April 17, 1978 Tape 1104 (Night) PK - 1 Mr. F. Ro~re: defend his o~m estimates instead of answering the questions that are put to him, Sir. We still do not have the government's position on the Nordsee proposal. We got about six different positions of the Nordsee proposal. We have the spectale of the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) standing up this afternoon and speaking, uttering words against his own private member's motion that he introduced in the first day of the House. MR. FLIGHT: It is unreal. MR. F. Rm/E: Sir, it is unbelievable. It is inconsistent.

How can the people of this Province, Sir, have any faith in a government ~/hen we have five or six members and Cabinet ministers saying different things about the same issues? Inconsistency. Sir, it is incredible.

You almost have to go outside the English language and say it is "uncredible"it is so incredible that we have so many different policies coming out of the government on very important issues facing the Province today, Sir . would suggest, Sir, that the minister in his few remaining minutes- and I give up1 I tried three times - once on Friday, once earlier this afternoon, and once tonight- I tried to squeeze out of the Minister of Fisheries what is the policy of the government with respect to Nordsee and the Nordsee-Ocean Harvesters merger. Not a squeak, not a saueak from the Minister of Fisheries, Sir.

Now know my colleagues, Sir, some of them want very much to get up,and do apologize if I cut into some of their time because I think I did indicate to a number of my colleagues that I had said what I ~/anted to say, but I had to get up, Mr. Chairman, because the Minister of Fisheries has not defended his estimates. am bitterly disappointed in the minister.

And I would for the last time ask him to d~fend his estimates, exolain the Nordsee thing so the people of this Province would know, and I will let my colleaques get in-to th-e meat of the Fisheries estimates because I know manv of them represent fishing districts and they want very much to get into matters in the fisheries that affect their own people that they represent, and 3[-90

April 17, 1978 Tape 1104 (Night) PK - 2 Mr. F. Rowe: the districts that they represent. So, Mr. Chairman, I once again just call on the minister to set this Province straight,please,on the matter of the Nordsee­ Ocean Harvesters proposal. He said the Premier is starting to lean towards him. ivlR. FLIGHT: He is leaninq on the minister. MR. F. ROWE: The Premier has not even been in the Committee stage for the minister's estimates. If he is leaning, Sir, he must have leaned ri~ht out of the ~inth Floor window. MR. FLIGHT: Leaning on the minister. MR. F.

ROWE: I would like to know who is leaning on who, Sir, with respect to the Nordsee propos a 1 . But I wi 11 qi ve way in the hope that the minister will get up,and I am not trying to pl?Y politics on this. Thereis enough confusion in this Province no~1 that the Minister of Fisheries has to set the record straight with respect to the Ocean Harvesters-Nordsee proposal. Because I can tell you, Mr.

Chairman, tonight that if the Nordsee proposal goes through as is indicated by the Premier,or even possibly as is indicated by the minister's latest formula with 5 per cent equity, I am afraid that this will set the stag~ and the floodgates will be open and every other foreign country in the world who need our fish, have a surplus of trawlers, have the fish plants and advanced technology will come in here and our Province­ wide or Canadian owned fishing industries will have to submit to the financial oressures of the foreigners and they will be slowly bought out one by one,and after this long fight for the 200 mile limit here we are back to sauare one with one of our major resource industries, renewable resource industries being controlled from outside of not only this Province, but outside of the nation.

And, Sir, I think that would be a complete sellout of this Province. And I hope the minister stands up - MR. W. CARTER: If you will give me a chance to stand up. MR. F. R0\4E: The minister has a - MR. MORGAN: Sit down! Give him a chance to stand up. 3C91.

April 17, 1978 Taoe 1104 (Night ) PK - 3 NR. F. ROWE: It is really funny, ~1r. Chainnan. You know, it is really hilarious to hear the minister now finally after I have gott en up for the second time today, and we only had twenty minutes each, "r.iv e me a chance to stand uo .

" The mi n istPr h.:~!'; th n~e nt" four nf' his colleagues speak irr~levantly to kill time so that the hon. minister •t~ould - if the minister will promise to stand up and enunicate the government's policy, if he would start rising in his seat now and enunicate the government's policy on the Nordsee· Ocean Harvesters proposal I will sink as he is rising. MR. w. CARTER: You are sinking arr{Way. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. 3( 92

Ap ril 1;· , 1978 Tape No . 1105 (~ight) AH-1 i·!R. W, CARTER: ~lr, Chairman, with the Opposition I have two hours and ten minutes left and I am prepared to stand on my feet for the next two hours and ten minutes and speak, explain our policy, I am prepared to stand on my feet in my place and answer questions,but if hen. members want to get up and speak for twenty minutes and say nothing, well then it is going to deny them the right to ask questions and get the answers that I think they are entitled to. So if the Committee would agree, ~lr.

Chairman, I am quite prepared to spend the next two hours and ten minutes standing, explaining government policy and responding to questions. NR.F.ROWE: HR.W,CARTER: MR.F .ROWE: HR.W.CARTER: That is a foolish statement there. That is not a foolish statement at all it is a - Everybody has ~enty minutes to give his statement. The hen. member, Mr.

Chairman, does not seem tc appreciate the fact that members on this side have a right too, and therP. are members here representing fishing districts.:And believe me the fact tnat I have not been standing up more often is because I want to give my colleagues a chance to say what they have to say. ~~ dON . MEMBER: What has the member for St. John's North to say? HR.l¥.CARTER: The hen. member is making a great deal of fuss over the Nordsee thing. Well,I do not know what else we can tell him about that, I think government's position is pretty well known • I would like to know the Opposition's position.

In one brea~h 1 by the way,they will talk about the need to put the brakes on and not to allow this merger to take place because of the over fishing that could occur and yetiin another breath, they will support their minister in Ottawa who in 1978 will issue 500 licences to several foreign countries to allow them to catch ;,z,:J~O metric tons of codfish in our so-called Northern waters and yet they get up and they blast government and they condemn the Nordsee-Ocean Harvester proposal.

That company, if and when that merger takes place, will require licences to operate ships to catch 20,000 metric tons of codfish from areas that otherwise will be fished by other foreign countries under licences issued by their minister in Ottawa, clr. LeBlanc. Does that make sense? 3(93

April 17 ,l97!l :·rn.. DOODY: ~lR. W. CARTER: Tape No. 1105 (Night) AH-2 Xot a bit. Does that make sense? In one breath they talk about the need to conserve, to be cautious and not to allow over fishing. l·lR. WHITE: Tell us about foreign control. HR.W.CARTER: In the next breath they support the proposition that foreign ships should be allowed to catch fish out there. :rn.. LUNDRIGAN: ~lR.W.CARTER: In chartered foreign vessels. They support the proposition that the federal government should issue licenses to foreign countries.

I have not heard one word of condemnation from the members opposite with respect to the actions of their idol in Ottawa, :Hr. LeBlanc,who in 1978 will :!:ssue 500 licenses to a number of countries to catch fish that rightfully belongs to us. What is your position on that? :·1R.WHITE: What is your position on Nordsee? }fR. W .CARTER: I am telling you my position on Nordsee and. our position is well-known on Nordsee. The government of this Province suppotts the Nordsee proposal. Do you want to hear it or do you not? SOJ:.JE RON.

MEl1BERS : Yes • tlR.W.CARTER: We support the Nordsee proposal subject to seven conditions. These seven conditions have been laid down and spelled out by the Premier of the Province, spelled out to the Foreign Investment Review Agency.

J.le support ~he proposition that Nordsee should be allowed to come in here because we believe that fish is ours by right, we do have first right to it and we b.ave a responsibility to ensure that tile Newfoundland people, indeed the Canadian people,should be given prEferential treatment in the disposition of that fish tb.at has been designated as the allowable catch and will in fact be caught in 1978. They talk about the inshore fishermen, and the fact that by giving the Ge=ans 20,000 tons of fish this is going to play havoc with the inshore fishermEn-on the i-lortheast coast.

They have appeared to act as if they have a monopoly on interest in and knowledge of the inshore fishery. l'iinety-seven per cent of our budget in 1977 was spent on the revitalization of the inshore fishery an.l I "auld submit to you that probably ninety-eight per cent of the estimates t:.at we are now debating, 3C94

.,. April 17 ,1Y7o Tape No, 1105 (~ight) AH-3 HR.W.CARTER: the $25 million that we are now debating 1will be spent on the revitalization of the inshore fishery. The Nordsee 20,000 metric ton harvest,if and when that proposal goes through 1will have no more effect on the Northeast coast inshore fishery, 3(95

Apri 1 17, 1978 Tape 1106 (Night) PK - 1 Mr. W. Carter: not as much as the 52,000 tons that will be caught in that area by foreign ships, fishing under foreign flags, by leave and licence of Ottawa. If I have a choice between allowing that surplus, that so-called surplus fish to go to Poland, Spain, Portugal, Norway, East or ~Jest Germany, or Russia or have that fish caught by boats partially manned by Newfoundlanders, landed in our Newfoundland plants for processing by our Newfoundland people, well, that is not a hard decision for me to make. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. \'1.

CARTER: And that is the decision of Nordsee. MR. F. ROHE: l~hat about the equity position? MR. W. CARTER: I will come to the equity position in a moment. I am talking now about the resource. You talk about markets, some han. member today talked about - the Leader of the Opposition -markets. There is one thing that we cannot forget in this. I had a gentleman come into my office one morning who is a highly placed person in the fishing industry, who was against the Nordsee Ocean Harvesters merger. He put the question to me. Then, of course, he answered the question himself.

Why are the Germans interested in our fish? Why are the Germans interested in buying into Ocean Harvesters? Then he answered his own question. He said~I will tell you why,because they want our fish ." ~le 11, I say to you now and to this House, this Comni ttee, that if ever the Germans and the Europeans cease to want our fish then we are in for rea 1 troub 1 e. ~Je a 11 know that the American market is a rather precarious market. There is no guarantee that that market will remain as lucrative as what it is at the present time. vle all know that the Americans have a 200 mile limit. l~e know it.

And I have had dicussions with the equivalent of a Deputy Minister of Fisheries at a meeting in Washington,not too long ago, who quite frankly and quite openly told me that their policy was to phase out all foreign effort within their 200 miles,to build up their fleet to the point where not too far distant they would be able to catch all of their allowable catch. In fact~that gentleman told me that there is 3(96

April 17, 1978 Tape 1106 (Night) PK - 2 Mr. W. Carter: only one country that will get any preferential rights at all and that is probably Mexico. All other countries, he said, will be phased out.and as ouickly as possible. In fact, I am told that there is quite an intensive campaign on in the States for a programme building ships to beef up the American fleet so.· as they can go out and catch their own fish and phase out foreian effnrt-.

Now then,with that kind of an effort on the part of the Americans does it stand cO reason that that market in which ~Je are se 11 i ng 95 per cent of our fish wi 11 one day maybe dry up or certainly they might make it more difficult for us to sell our fish into that market? Therefore, Mr. Chairman, the 200 mile limit will be meaningless, will mean very little to us,if we have all of that fish out there, the stocks will rebuild as projected~o that bv 1985 the cod stocks in the Northern areas will go from a present day quota of 135,000 to 300,000 metric tons in seven short _years.

We know that the Canadian fishing effort will increase}not as fast as it should, . to coincide with that rapid build up in the stocks. So who is going to buy the fish? Who will buy the fish that we will catch? We cannot depend on the Canadian market, and that is for sure. Canadians are not big fish eaters. I suppose one of our plants here could process enough fish in a month to keep the Canadian market going for a year. \~e have to look to Europe for markets.

We have to look to the EEC countries, people who eat fish because they enjoy it, not because it is cheaper than mincemeat or chicken leas; they eat it because Mrs. EuropeanHousewife has been trained, ·has obviouslv been sold on I the advantages of having fish as opposed maybe to meat. The Europeans consumption of fish is about, I believe, three or four times greater than that of the average North American, the average per capita consumption of fish in the EEC countries is about forty-two or forty-eight pounds, I believe, a year as opposed 'tO, I do not know, ten or twelve pounds 3C97

April 17 1 1978 Tape 1106 (Night) PK-3 !<lR. i'l . CARTER: in Canada and the U. S. We have to look to Europe for markets for our fish. HR. F • ROWE : Cannot we do that '"i thou t foreign ownership over here? M.R. W. C.~RTER: That is one of the advantages in this so- called, or this merger of the Nordsee Ocean Harvesters in that we are getting a toe hold, as it were, into the European market . That company 3G98

April 17, 1978 Tape 1107 (Night) PK - l MR. lL CARTER: the Nordsee company, is one of the biggest of its kind in Europe, probably the biggest. It has got~I believe,something like 265 outlets in Eurooe for its fish in several countri~s. Last year the gross sales of that company, I think, was over a half a billion dollars. I believe that the Nordsee-Ocean Harvester deal can be very beneficial to this Province. Granted it is foreign investments.

But are we going to expect the Newfoundland fishermen.who have been exploited, torn apart for the past two or three hundred years, are we going to expect them to wait another 200 years to get social and economic equality? Are we going to expect them to sit back and to continue to be a have-not unti 1 ~1r. So and So up on Bay Street or St. James Street or some other place in the golden triangle of Ontario decides to move in here and to invest their money? They are not doing it. The investors of Canada, Central Canada are not investing their money in Eastern Canada and nore especially not in the fishing indust:cy.

The returns are much greater on their money, of course, in,maybe, real estate, in the colden triangle,or Albertan oil or something else that is a more safe 0r at least a more sure bet for them. I l•tould like to see Canadian businessmen, Canadian investment have first crack at the development of our fisheries just as I believe that Canadian fishermen, Newfoundland fishermen should have first crack at the resource. But I am not prepared to stand around and to go up to the golden triangle on hands and knees and beg for these people to come in here and to invest their money. And I submit, Mr.

Chairman, that if we are going to wait for that to happen that we are going to wait a long time. MR. W. DOODY: 'lhey will be in dories for a lonq while. MR. W. CARTER: I had the privilege some weeks ago of speaking to the Canadian Club in Montreal, a club that consists of some of the wealthiest and more influential people in that city, in that Province. I told the gathering,as I am telling this Committee, 'We want canadian investment in this country, in this Province, lle welcrne canadian invest:m=nt but we are not going to wait forever for it.' 1 And I told them,and I am 3C99

Aori 1 17, 1978 Tape 1107 (Night) PK - 2 Mr. l-1. Carter: telling this Committee now,that our position is that we will develop the fishing industry. He will develop the fishing industry. We will give our fishermen social and economic equality with or without Canadian investment. If they want to come in they are welcome. They would be welcome to come in here and they will get whatever encouragement they need from this government. But we are not content to sit back and to daydream and to wait until they make up their minds. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: The opportunity is there.

And if they are so blind as to miss this opportunity it is going to be their loss. Because I can tell them now,and I can tell this Committee,that there are countries and companies in those cocntries that are waiting, lined up, waiting to come over here to do something for the fishing industry. And I say so be it. For the first time in our history pretty well in this Province,one of the few times in our history,that we have got something that they want. And I believe that we can sell it to them on our terms. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. \4. CARTER: Because I believe the need is there.

He talked about the Nordsee company. Do not forget these people are very, very energetic and ambitious people. And submit to you that if they do not get access to some of our fish that they are not going to allow their companies to qo bankruot or their ships to rust out on the beaches; these people will develop new sources of raw material. They will find \•rays and means of fishing off the Argentine, for example. They will find some ~Jay to catch other species of white fish, wrap it up in some kind of batter and sell it to Mrs. European Housewife,and then ~Je will have lost our big chance.

Either that will happen or Mrs. European Housewife will maybe switch to something else. It has taken years to build up the market that they have now in Europe and once that market is lost or jeopardized then I think we are going to be the real losers. There are a number of advantages to that proposal. would much prefer 1 naturally any Newfoundlander with blood in his veins 3100

-< I Apri 1 17, 1978 Tape 1107 (Night) PK - 3 Mr. 1-1 . Carter: would prefer to see Newfoundland capital going into our most important industry. Well,that caoital is not forthcominq. I have some figures here on the amount of money spen t by botb levels of government in the past ten years,I think . In the past ten or b~elve years in this Province the Provincial Government has spent something like $150 million. In fact $182.7 million have been spent 31.01

l'lpril 17, 1978 Tape 1108 (Night) PK - 1 Mr. H. Carter: by the Provincial Government over the past, say,ten years. I do not have the -yes, a ten year period. In the past ten years the Provincial Government under all headings has spent $182.7 million. The Federal Government spent $230 million. And that again is under all headings- surveillance, icebreaking where it is necessary, ships, research ships and everything else.

Despite all of that money, despite the $182 million we have spent, I do not kno~1 if the members of the Committee realize, but if we are going to do anything with our fishing industry, if we are going to give our fishermen a chance to ~aximize the benefit that is there to be had from the 2nn mile limit and the rebuilt fish stocks, we are goin(J to have to spend in the next ten years at least $750 million.

Three-ouarters of a billion dollars will have to be spent in this Province by both the private and public sector if we are going to be able to maximize the benefit that should flow from the rebuilding of our fish stocks because of the 200 mile limit. Just compare that l'lith what has been spent already, $182.7 million plus $230 ~illion, compare that with what must be spent during the next ten years.

Now then we have a choice: we can nationalize the fishing industry, take it over, do everything ourselves, let John Q.Citizen take all the risk, spend his money to build up the fishery;or \'le can encourage the private sector to move in and do the job for us. It is obvious that the money is not in the private sector in this Province.

We have companies that are struggling along,and doing a very good job considering the limitations on their resources; soending money, putting in a few plate freezers here, and a few filleting lines there, and investing in a ship or two· But that is not the way to go. l·'e cannot afford to sit back and wait until the private sector~and I am sure my good friend from Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor}.,who was associated with the fish business,is aware of the problems involved, the problems that are being encountered by people 3102

Apri 1 17, 1978 Tape 1108 (Night) PK - 2 Mr. !~. Carter: in the private sector to get money- to get the risk capital that is required. ~Je do not have that kind of money in this Province. The Province itself does not have the money. This Province cannot afford to commit itself to three-quarters of a billion dollars in the next ten years to build ships and to build infrastructure, to build plants. The Canadian investor is unwilling; they have got the money , but they are unwilling to invest it. They are unwilling to come in here and to invest their money. So what do we do?

Do we just sit around and moan and groan and wait? Do we reminisce and romanticize about the rebuilt stock and about the fact that there is that much fish up there to be caught and that nobody else should catch it? Or do we set about and find ways and means to developing the industry? Money is available. Capital is available from Europe, from several countries in Europe.

And I submit that if our own people are not prepared to come in and do the job, and if we cannot do it ourselves,then we would be fools, we would be absolutely and utterly mad not to take advantage of this capital, this technology, and,maybe more importantly,the markets that are there to be had as well. MR. \~. DOODY: Absolutely. MR. t~. CARTER: That is ~/hat we are doing. I get little joy out of knowing maybe that one of our Newfoundland companies will be under control>to a certain extent,by foreign people, foreigners.

But I have some con solation in the kno,·•l edne that it is probably one of the most controlled industries in the world today. You have a company that first of all must get a licence from the Minister of Fisheries to operate the plant. That is number one. the number one safe9uard. They must apply for and get a licence from us to operate that plant. That is number one. Number two, before they can operate a ship anywhere they must apply to my counterpart in Ottawa for a licence to operate that ship. That is number two safeguard . Number three, of course,there are laws under the Department of National 3103

Apri 1 17, 1978 Tape 1108 (Night) PK - 3 Mr. H. Carter: Revuenue 1•1here certain measures are imposed on them with respect to profits and with resoect to taking their profits out of this country. And they will be under constant review by the Foreign Investment Review Agency. These are three or four very stringent measures that will 31.04

April 17, 1978 Tape 1109 (Night) PK - 1 Mr. W. Carter: continue to monitor the operations of that company and keep it under close surveillance. I am sure that if it ever comes to light that that company is operating in contravention of the terms and conditions under which they were granted permission to come into this country~ that one or the other, the Province or the Federal Government,will step in and do what has got to be done. But I do not think that it is enough to sit back and just wait until everything else falls in place.

Opportunities just do not happen,you have got to make them happen in this Province, especially when you are dealing with the fishing industry. And I contend that the Nordsee-ocean Harvester proposal will be good for the area, good for the Province, and good for the fishing industry. Somebody over on the other side today mentioned, "What are they leaving here? What did the Bird's Eye people, what technology did the Bird's Eye people leave to the Newfoundland fishing industry?" MR.~= Two and a half million dollars. MR. W. CARTER: I submit, Mr.

Chairman, that the technology, the advantages that we will have by being exposed to the West German technology will be of immeasurable assistance to our Province and our fishermen. That, of course, plus access to their markets. What is more important, Mr. Chairman, is that if they do not catch that fish it will be caught anyhow. heard the han. the Leader of the Opposition on television tonight expressing concern for the inshore fishermen. Of course. am sure he is sincere in what he says.

But there is one thing he is obviously missino, one point; that we do not in this Province set the total allowable catches. \~e do not set the q11otas. We do not declare the surpluses. We do not issue licences to ships to catch that fish. That is done by Ottawa, and I can only hope that it is being done on the basis of good, sound, hard, scientific, biological data that is collected by 11hat I think are probably the best 3105

April 17, 1978 Tape 1109 (Night) PK - 2 Mr. W. Carter : scientists and biologists in the world. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F. KWE: We have nothing else to oo on. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. ~J. CARTER: If we do not a 11 ow the Gennans, if we do not build up our catching effort to catch that fish,then we are going to forfeit our right to it, and we deserve to lose it. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, nlease! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, my offer still stands, I am prepared to speak for two hours if the House will let me. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Young).

The hon. the member for Baie Verte- White Bay. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to take a few minutes to put a few questions to the minister since it appears obvious again that we may not get down into the Heads V and Vl wheJ:e same of the questions are I would like to ask. I am going to take this opportunity to ask the minister a few questions and hopefully when he speaks again he may be able to give me a few answers. I am not going to get into this Nordsee debate at this time.

There will be an opportunity for me to do so later, although I do have some strong thoughts on it. am going to do away with those right now and deal with it at a later time since there is a resolution on the Order Paper to tnat effect. I want the minister to let me know when he speaks aoain exactly what type of plans the National Sea Company has for the operation of the fish plant that they have recently acquired at LaScie. As the minister is aware,the government sold them that plant this past Winter and they are now the new owners and will be the operators this year of that once government-owned plant .

They say very casually in their acceptance of the deal that they are prepared to take whatever swims and the fishermen in our area are certainly hoping that they intend to do that. A fisherman to succeed and to make money in the fishery today, Mr. Chainnan, as the minister knows, must be able 3106

Aoril 1 7 , 1978 Tape 1109 (Night) PK - 3 Mr. Ri deout: to fish all species that he has the ability to fish and land that are out there . vie have had that problem down i n LaScie this past number of .years that they could not sell different species of fish , like caplin and squid and turbot and fish of those types of species. Now National Sea comes in with the promise that they are going to be able to handle whatever the fishermen can bring i nto them.

Nell, I would like for the minister in view of the fact that they have sold the plant to t hose pec.ple., I would hope that t hose people have told the Minister of Fisheries exactly what they plan t o do with their newly acquired property at laScie, what ~~PJWr gain p1.ans for operat ion is . You know, do they in fact intend t_o expand the facil ity so that they will be able to handle all the species of f ish? MR. \4. CARTER: that . MR. RIDEOUT: $300,000 this year on building Okay,that is good. So I want t he minister to give me some details on that when he rises to speak.

Now t he other important fishing centre in my district, Mr . Chairman, is Englee. 31.07

Apr i 1 17, 1978 Tape 1110 (Night) Mr. Rideout: And while I have publicly at times helped sing the praises of our present Minister of Fisheries, and rightly so where he deserves it, I am very bitterly disappointed with the Minister of Fisheries when it comes to Englee. Englee could very well be-between St. Anthony and LaScie- it could very well be one of the most important fishing communities on the Northeast Coast of PK - 1 Newfoundland. There is an old run-dawn plant there that has been there·-well~I do not know how long it has been there, but, you know, it has certainly been there for years and years on end.

And the Lake group of companies have been operating it for the past number of years and they have done a very good job. I know that they have been trying to purchase that plant because the government has some interest in it, and so does Canada Bay Cold Storage have an interest in it. I know the Lake group has been trying to purchase it, whether or not a deal has been struck yet MR. W. CARTER: Yes. MR. RIDEOUT: - I am not sure. So that is another question the minister has answered. So a deal has been struck.

Now the other ouesti on is; ~I hat is the government going to do to assist that company to develop the fishery at Englee the way it should be developed? As I indicated before, Englee could be one of the most important fishing centres along the whole Northeast Coast. But to this day, Mr. Chairman, it is my conviction that the fishery in Englee has been down-played ?nd it has been under estimated by all levels of government,including this present government and this Minister of Fisheries.

While this Minister of Fisheries was travelling the Province seeking the advice of fishermen,he did not go to one of the most important fishing communities on the Northeast Coast, which is Eng1ee. I attended a meeting that the minister had in Plum Point, I believe, one time last Fall, and those people had their convi cti ens and their traditions and their ways and they 111oul d not even go to the meeting despite how interested they were because it was held on a Sunday. They were willing to travel the hundred miles 3108

April 17 , 1978 Tape 1110 (Night) Mr. Rideout: or so to get there, but it was held on a Sunday, and those people just would not go, and you cannot argue with that . I offered to give three or four of them a ride over with me, but they just would not go because it was held on a Sunday. And the other thing they are perturbed about is that the Minister of Fisheries did not oo at all to this community of 3,500 people that is solely dependent an the fishery.

Nothing else to look forward to, no other resource to exploit but the fishery and the whole econanic life of that a:mnuni.ty depends an the fi.shinq capability of the area, and it is there. So I want to know ~> •hat the minister's department is doing with reference to Englee. Are they going to help out the Lake group to modernize the plant? Because it is soon going to fall into the water anvway it is that old and it is that rundown. It is a tribute, Mr. Chairman, to the genius of the people who are working down there that they have been able to keep it operating so long.

And the Lake group,despite the fact that they were only leasing it for so many years,has put many hundreds of thousands of dollars into keeping it going. So I think that it is time that PK - 2 the government of this Province take an interest in Englee. It is time that they start giving some assistance to whoever is going to operate that plant so that the economic life of that community can be guaranteed. It is there. The source is there. Some of the best fishermen in Newfoundland are there, but they need some help.

The plant needs to be refurbished, it needs to be revitalized so that the economy of the area can continue to grow and prosper. And also, Mr. Chairman, we need, and again I want the minister to address himself to this 1 we need some sort of a fishery policy for that whole area, Englee,Bide Arm, Conche, which is not in my district, but in the distric t of my friend, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). But that whole area is so compact; and Englee could be the hub of a great fishing industry in that particular area. It could be centered right around Englee 3109

Apri l 1 7, 1978 Tape 1110 (Night) PK - 3 ~lr. Riceout: with a small feeder plant in Bide Arm. There is one there sitting rotting into the ground right now. I do not know if anythi ng is going to be ever done about it. I am talking about the former - what was it?- Reid's Fisheries Products,was it? The Minister of Transportation ought to know what I am talking about - and he puts his hands over his eyes. But, Mr. Chairman, it is a crime that nothing has been done to get that facility operating. It could operate, and it could take care of the glut situation in that particular area.

Lake' s have already made proposals to government about utilizin~ it and operating thel:e, but there seems to be no leadership or no interest in developing a comprehensive fisheries policy for that whole area. And it can be done with Englee as the centre. with Englee as the hub, and Englee the main processing centre utilizing those, the ol~nt ~t Bide Arm, t~e small community stage at Conche, and so on, but with it all essentially finding its 'NaY into Eng lee. 3110

.\prill/,1978 Tape :>o. 1111 (,light) AH-1 :.:;,. RIDEOUT: So it can be done but it will take some thought, it will take some leaaership and it will take some dollars by the government and that to this point, Hr. Chairman, has been lacking. As I sa.Y.,Englee is one of the greatest fishing centres on the Northeast coast but this government I think has down played the importance of Englee in the Northeast coast fishery.

Now there is one other point that I want the minister to make note of and that is the talk that has been going around in recent wonths regarding the proposal of a Dutch company to build a plant at 1I believe Triton,in Green Bay. I am all for building a fish plant, providing jobs and so on, providing the necessary processing capability anywhere that it can be done without affecting the prospects of a successful operation elsewhere.

But before this government gives that proposal its blessing, and I am not suggesting they have, but before they do I would hope that the impact of such an operation on the LaScie fish plant will be looked at and of course I could go further and say that the impact of another processing plant on the one already in existence at Twillingate in the district of the Leader of the Opposition . because that area feeds those two plants, There are more fish that come into the LaScie fish plant from Smith's Harbour and all that side of Green Bay, there is just as much fish as comes in from anywhere on the Baie Verte Peninsula.So if that source of product is taken away then obviously the fish plant at LaScie is going to suffer.

This group have come in and made proposals about bringing in trawlers and draggers and all this kind of stuff. I do not know how J:lllch wor~~. if any, the minister's department has done on it, but I hope they have and I hope they will not let such a proposal slip through without looking at the consequences for LaScie and Twillingate. I think there is a small privately owned processing operation in Little Bay Islands - AN HON.HEMBER: George Jones. :-lR.RIDEOUT: - Yes, George Jones - that would also be adversely affected ~y this.

You know,more processing capability, more processing facilities, sure, if we can utilize them without damaging the other3 that are already in existence. The LaScie fish plant is vital, 3111.

. \ Ap r il 17,1978 Tape No . 1111 (Nigh

t) AH- 2 :IR. RIDEOUT: absolutely vital to the economy of the Baie Verte Peninsula and I am sure the same argument can be made for the one at Twillingate and the one at Little Bay Island. So to put another one in there at the peril of those, Mr. Chairman, I do not think would make any economic sense whatsoever and I would hope the minister would give some sort of answer to that when he rises again. I also want to ask the minister one other question before I take my seat and that is what if anything he is going to do about the tremendous backlog of work now before the Fisheries Loan Board.

I understand,for example,that within the last month the Fisheries Loan Board received 1700 applications and of course a lot of fishermen - ~lR. NEARY: The glut you are talking about now, is it? ~lR.RIDEOUT: The glut, yes, the glut in the Fisheries Loan Board. But a number of fishermen in my district, Mr.

Chairman, have been calling me this last couple of weeks saying, "Look,we do not know when our application is going to get before the board." They meet every three weeks or something,! believe,for a day or so but with 1700 or 1800 applications and with them still coming in there is going to be no way that we are going to be able to process those applications sa that fishermen who are now waiting to hear so they can ~et back into the fishery in another month or so on the Northeast coast - i1R. J. WINSOR: 'I R. RIDEOUT: Get their boats ready.

Engines and, you know,numbers of them have built new boats during the year and they want to get engines and whatever else they assistance from from the Fisheries Loan Board, but with that type of a backlog of applications then those people are not going to get in the fishing boat in May or June unless some special effort is made by the board to clear up those backlog of applications. I know they have to be assessed and they have to go out for assessment and so on ,but unless we get some special help there are a lot of fishermen ,I would suggest, Hr.

Chairman, in this Province who are not going to be ready to go in the fishing boat in another month or so. So I "'ould like for the minister to let us know '"~1at ~-,.e is going to do about that paricular situation. 3112

:.p ::-11 17 , 1973 !ape ::lo. llll 0/igh

t) All- 3 _liR. iUDEOllr : The last thing, Hr. Chairman , is I 11ant the cinister to tell ~e ~~at plans he has for developing of some sort of fishery facility ac Smith's Harbour. There is more fish landed at Smith 's Harbour tn go into the LaScie plan~ !

I understand that: it is the secono largest lanaings of anywhere that that plant collects from ; Shoe Cove, I believe, would be first outside of LaScie itself , bu t Smith 's Harbour is the second one , They do no t even nave a holciing unit there to store the fisn in , There is a little shack on the fecieral "'harf that '.Jas put there by Newfoundland Quick Freeze and after 1:'-'0 or three boats come in that is all filled up and the fish consequently end up on the wharf sp rinkled with ice fo r hours on end 31.13

Aor i l 17 , 1978 Tape 1112 (N i ght ) PK - l Mr. Ri deout: waiting for a collection truck to come and take it to the fish plant. Now if we are talking about quality products and about getting the quality of our product up,then you cannot do it that way.

There was a start made last year to build a wharf on which I understand there will be placed some sort of holding unit 1 but apparently the company that ~!as doin(J the ~1ork ~·ent bankruot just after the wharf was brought up over the high water line and that is where she sits today, with no shed and no wharf, and the fishery about to start in four or five weeks time.

So I want the minister to tell us what he intends to - and by the way, Smith's Harbour is the sort of focal collection point for all that part of Green Bay, not only Middle Arm and Burlington, which are in my riding, but in dozens of communities­ or certainly a half dozen or so communities in the riding of the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy, so it is very important that some sort of fish handling facility be put there because that is where it is all brought into; it is brought into Smith's Harbour and then taken from there by truck to the processing plant at LaScie. So, Mr.

Chairman, there are a number of pointed questions there I have brought up; granted,they are just relative to my own district, but they are very important. I would hope that when the minister gets a chance to speak next he will provide me with the answers to them. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): The han. the member for the Bay of Islands . ~lR. L. WOODROW: Mr . Chairman, I would like to have a few words to say on the topic also. The estimates have developed into a debate on the Nordsee.

But before I continue with the few remarks I have, I would like to congratulate the minister for the good work he is doing with his department, the Department of Fisheries. And with all of the questions placed before him tonight it is no wonder that he has to arise at 6:00 A.M. almost every morning including Sundays. And I understand on Sunday mornin(Js to show how much he loves the sea and 3114

April 17, 1978 Taoe 1112 (Night) PK - 2 Mr . Woodrow: the fish he is down on the wharf on Sunday mornings getting a little puff of the sea down there. MR. l·!. CJIRTE~. : To cool off. MR. WOODROW: To cool off, yes. Now he has gone over the Province,I suppose,in the past two or three years, on two or three occasions, and before I end up my few words I am going to tell you what happened as a result of his visit to my district. And I am convinced that he is a very good Minister of Fisheries - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

WOODROW: ~ and I hope the Lord will spare him and give him the health and the strength to continue for many more years. even beyond 1979. Mr. Chairman, the Nordsee , although many things have been said about it,it seems to be becoming more confusing as this debate or,as we say,this discussion continues. I am just wondering if any of you people, if any of you hen. members,ever sat in the back of a large church on a Sunday and watch~d - AN HON. MEMBER: They were right to the door. MR.

WOODROW: - the people come and go, people, real good Newfoundlanders who are relying upon us, who are really and truly relying upon us to help them. But in many cases what are we doing? Mr. Chairman, we should take a leaf out of the book or out of the speech that the hen. the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Dawe) made tonight. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: And .the han. the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning) as well, and also the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), who spoke honestly and sincerely.

We have a real obligation on our hands not, for example, we should not be trying to say,".am I going to be elected again?" That is not being a Newfoundlander, Mr. Chairman. That is only trying to play Brownie points, trying,for example, maybe to fool the fishermen of this Province. That is a terrible 31.15

Apr il 17 , 1978 Tape 1112 (Night) PK - 3 Mr. Woodrow: tragedy. What I think we should do with the Nordsee, ! am going to suggest that we should set up a select committee of good, unbia:ed Ne~1foundlanders, maybe have a man like Father Desmond McGrath on it , Loci: at a 11 of the good he has done for the fishermen. 1-lR. I'EABY: He is going to try to run for the NOP. MR. WOODROW: I heard that. I heard that. Yes, and that is beside the point. look at all of the good he has done for the fi shermen throughout the Province of Newfoundland. MR. SIKMONS: Have you been talking to Andy Honan lately? 31.16

April 17, 1978 Tape 1113 DH - 1 ~~:t. HC:ODROc.J: Andy Hogan?I know Andy Hogan very lJell. I feel, :!r. Chairman, that there must be some good~unbiased and non-political people in this Province IJho can give us an unbiased opinion about L~orasee because it is a very important issue. ~-!R. S. NEARY: Eembers of the House should he on the Select Committ·ee. ~m. \.JOODROH: It may not be important to the members of the West Coast of the Province but it is il:lportant of the member for Hay de Verde (lrr. Rowe), the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Dawe) and other members as well.

And I do not think that we should be playing games with the lives of our poor fishermen. God knows,in fact looking down through the years,in fact they were treated like dogs and slaves and I hope to God that that time is gone. In fact all you people know, the member :::or LaPoile (~~r. Neary) knows how hard the fishermen had to work in this P,rovince. I think it is time for us now as good politicians and good citizens of this Province to try and help them.

I thought when the rrember for Trinity - Bay de Verde - I do not mean to be critical with him but he has spent a lot of time proving that the Estimates for 197 8/79 - :T. ~·T. CAP.T:CR: Trying to prove. ifR. WOODROW: -•·,t('P.ll trying to .prove - l<ere 7 per cent cent and not 10 per cent. l:hat does it mean if there are SO per cent? Why in fact waste so much time trying to prove that? Now also in his remarks on the 200 mile limit he forgot to mention the seven loyal members of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador who worked so hard to bring that 200 mile limit to the Province.

The present ~inister of Fisheries was up there at the time. He certainly played in fact a role in getting this done as well. 3117

April 17, 1978 Tape 1113 (Mi g ht) o:?-.. ;IOODROI·I : Now I am certainl y saddened and dissappointed that a fish meal plant in my district - tne han. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) happened to mention - HR. S. NEARY: I han heen talking about it long before that. :m.. H. CARTER: Go on. ::R . !iC'ODROH : No, my han. friend.I knew about it long before you did. However,in fact~I am very sorry to hear this because it is going to take away employ~ent from seven men plus the spin-off jobs likel for example 1 hauling the offa~ and whatnot and it is going create another problem.

It is going to create a problem of polution in and around the Bay of Islands because after all there are six herring plants open to Bay of Islands. Now, of course, I understand 1 and I have not got all the facts about it yet,but I understand this had to close do wn because of lack of raw materials to use in the plant. But I hope however that with the 200 mile limit,which will mean I hope an increase in fish landings in and around the Bay of Islands and down around Trout River and the lJ.ke, I hope that we will be able to,with God's help, get this plant underway again.

Now somebody was saying the 3 overn ment had no programme. I doubt very much if the han. nember for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) knows what a fish is. I have the feeling he does not. ! ~ R . J. NOLAN: If the han. member will permit ? 1!!1.. L 1: HOODROH: Yes. :!R. J. NOLAN: I am sure that the han. ~ember is aware that Conception Bay,the very name signifies that it has been identifie d w ith the fisher y , For examole,as k his h on . f riend the :!inister of F isheries a bout the co mmunit y of Foxtrap and the fish plant there and maybe that will give him !'f-

.,n il 1 7, l'i78 !ape 1113 (::ini:

c) D'·l - 3 som e id ea of wha t the fish are like i:1 Concep c ion Bay . ur my hon. fri end fo r Cr and Falls (: tr. Lundri;:an) who fished out of t he port there himself. :!R. L. I10 0DRO~~ = I generally judge by the shape of a person's hands wheth er he is a fish er man or noc , Do yo u k now that? In any case, ~lr . Chai rman, this already has be e n said in this hon. House but j ust take a look ~ fo r example , at the researc h and leve lop ment .vess e l development $250,000; low energy fish dry-out $50,000;d evelo pment of stationary and insho r e fishing ge ar $100,000: d eve lopment of cleanin g pro cedure s $10,000 ; 3119

·7 April 17, 1978 Tape 1114 (Night) PK - l Mr. Woodrow: investigations into mobile fishing gear efficiency $125,000; fishing vessel experimentation, this probably could refer to the members of Port au Port and Stephenville, the two vessels, the Harmon I and the Harmon II. You could go, Mr. Chairman, on and on. Now I think it is tragic, it is tragic when people get up in the House and say that the government has no, say, programme. My goodness, in fact, Glory be to God, you would want to be stupid. They certainly have a r.ronramme. I am not saying they have all of the answers. My God, who has· a 11 of the answers?

MR. NOLAN: Oh my! MR. WOODROW: They are trying to get the answers. Take,for example, again the question of the glut problem, the committee which will serve without remuneration, will be made up of the following; Mr. A. Etchegary, O'Brien, Greene, Kennedy, Short, William Short a member of - a fellow who came from my neck of the woods, down around Kingston, in the North ~hare of Concepti on Bay. And of course he goes on to speak about the information desks that he has set up in the various places throughout the Province. Now I think it is wonderful, Mr.

Chairman, that all of us, especially the members who are responsible for people living in the communities throughout the Province who have to depend upon the fisheries. Take,for example,my han. friend for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). How often have I in fact been in Burgee and been in Ramea, and storm bound in Roncontre West and Francois and the like, and I know in fact how these people have to depend upon the fishery for their livelihood and I can assure you they are good, honest people.

Now it is interesting to note and to show the importance that people in the Bay of Islands district are giving to the fishery, In Lark Harbour alone this year there are five new boats over thirty feet in length, and almost every day, in fact, I am hearing from somebody who is trying to get a new boat or, say, who 3120

April 17, 1978 Tape 1114 (Night) Mr. Woodrow: is trying to get a new engine or the like. I mentioned earlier that I would bring to the Committee or tell them about a visit that the hon. Minister of Fisheries made to the Bay of Islands district, I think it was March 1976, I believe. MR. H. CARTER: Yes, it was historic. PK - 2 MR. WOODROW: Historic, of course, absolutely historic is right. And that visit resulted in the activation of a government owned fish plant in the Community of Cox's Cove.

Now this fish plant at the present time - I notice members on both sides of the House, I noticed the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Hickman) does not mind mentionino the fishing captains and the other people in his district and the like. So I take great pride in mentioning a man like John Roy Hackett. remember him growing up on Wood's Island, just a humble hov. In fact , his father died when he was very young; his father was drowned, I believe, up off Cape St. George some years ago, And he is one of the co~operators of the fish plant in Cox's Cove.

And the other man is a man who worked with Dunphy's Fisheries Limited for twenty-five years, I refer to Joe Taylor of Bonne Bay. And Joe Taylor really he lives fish; in fact, if you call that man 12:00 o'clock at nioht he would be in the fish plant, he is really dedicated. 3121.

Ap r il 17,1973 Tape No. 1115 (Night) AH-1 :·!R. \iOODRO\/: In fact, I never saw a combination of two ~en before in my life who work so hard anci have so cuch interest in their work. Now it is interesting to note, and I announced this only last week, that there is an extension now being put on this plant and as a result of the extension being put on the plant they are going to have an ice machine capable of producing six tons of ice per day. Also - and I 1dll tell you why I am mentioning this after I finish- also they are going to buy a new cutter, a pinning machine and also a sterilizer.

Iucidenta1ly,I would like to say that the government gave them $20,000 but the other ninety-odd thousand dollars is being put into the plant by the operators of the plant and I think this is really a wonderful thing. It is nice to know that men like John Roy Hackett and Joe Taylor are really so interested in the fishery and as a result of their hard work they are going to leave a lot more dollars in the Coxes Cove·North Shore area in general.

I heard today, only today, and probably the minister will comment on this, I understand that there are hundreds of tons of herring being landed in Stephenville which is a great thing but the trouble is that they are trucked to Nova Scotia. In fact apparently the fish plants in Curling as the fish plant in the hon. ~ember for LaPoile's (Mr.Neary) district in Port aux Basques are by-vasseci. Why can they not be processed in Port aux Basques or in Curling or somewhere? HR. NEARY: They have all the herring they can handle down there. HR.

I<OODROW: But it is too bad that they have to be trucked from Stephenville over to Nova Scotia when so many dollars could be put into the hands of the people in maybe the Stephenville area or for that matter the Bay of Islands area as well. Now I also hear t~day, in fact I was in communication today with the fish plant owners in the Curling area and in the Bay of Islands area in general and I understand that they have a quota of 4,000 tons in St.

George's Bay and between Cape George and Cape Gregorv t ~1.ey nave a quota of 3, 000 tons and in a place called the llet:.ge, that is the Cape on the Jorthern side of Cape Breton, they bave a quota for 27,000 tons. At least at the present time all the i1erring plants over in 31.22

.\pril 17,1978 Tape ~o. 1115 (Night) Al!- 2 t he Say of Islands are getting lots of herring and as 3 result are leaving a lot ~ore uollars into the hands of the people over there. So, Mr. Chairman, I really feel.and I say ti1is sincerely -1 try co be,at lease_ I worked with poor people all my life and s till work with them , and hop e to continue cloing the sm.1e thing , but let us not play games with an industry, the m3in industry of our Pro vince. In fact it is the main industry . A,, .. ?raise the Lord!

Praise the Lord! !·1 R. \~OODROW : If we could only lay aside partisan politics altogether, if we could just do this say for five hours in this liouse and talk on t:his great industry of the Province,! think in fact we would do a -~ole lot of good for the people of the Provinceand Newfoundland and I feel that chat is what we are all here for . I also feel, tlr. Chairman, it is too bad that we could not speak more often in this liouse because we all have a few words, we all have a little message in one way or another and I feel that all of us shou:d oe able to Stleak more often 31.23

,. Apri 1 17, 1978 Tape 1116 (Night) PK - l Mr. Vloodrow: so that our voices will be heard, and the people we represent will know that we are working on their behalf. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): The hon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. am very glad to see my friend on the other s i;de is back to his old preaching style. MR. WOODROW: Very good! Very good! MR. J. WINSOR: You were getting warmed up on the tail end of ~- I only have a few remarks to pass on this.

For one wild moment thought we were debating the estimates, but I think we have covered a wider field than that. There are no experts in this House on fisheries, but there are many of us here who have a certain amount of expertise in certain areas. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. WINSOR: And all of us should know something about our own districts and what goes on there. And I am sure there are still others on this side and the other side w-ho ~10uld like to say something about the great industry of fish.

You know, I can go back fifteen or twenty, maybe twenty-five years ago if you like,when the fishery was poison; the fishermen were getting two or three cents a pound for their fish and it was never considered the backbone of Newfoundland. But the last few years we have found out it is the backbone of Newfoundland. The fishery is still ongoing. The refineries are closed up and the mines are closing down, the paper companies are having a hard time trying to sell their paper, but we are still selling fish.

And the only reason - there are two reasons why the fishery is so important and why it suddenly bounced back, the fisherman is getting a good price for his fish. You would want a lot of guts to go out and fish in all kinds of weather like they do on the Southwest Coast all the year around, and like they do on the East Coast and have to go off fifty - the Northeast Coast,go off fifty miles to get a trip. You would want to have a lot of guts to fish and get three cents a pound or two cents 31.24

I' . \ April i 7, 1978 Tape 1116 (Night) PK - 2 Mr . J. Winsor : a pound; but sixteen cents, nineteen cents that is something else,plus a federal subsidy of two cents and a provincial subsidy of another half cent, or something like that. Another reason is the federal government woke up after a while and after a lot of in-fighting and got us the 200 mile limit. NR. DOODY: The members of the House were fighting for it. AN HON. MH1BER: Do ~ot forget to praise the dewfoundland members boy! MR. J. WINSOR: Well,! guess we are here to fight for these things.

We did our share. was not in the House when that started, for sure, but I was somewhere else and we were all fighting for it. It was no trouble to see what was happening to the fishery. One time the trawlers would come in with 350,000 pounds abroad, side trawlers; 25,000 pounds of that would be on deck, iced. They are not doing it now because1 as has been pointed out by everybody that knows anything about it, and I am sure the minister made a very good case for it, the foreign boats were taking too much fish from us, and they are still taking some fish. And are we going to stop the French from taking fish?

They have got rights back farther than we have, traditional rights. They are sitting on our doorstep. They want a twelve mile limit around St. Pierre and Miouelon,too . It is very difficult to get all tne wav around there with a twelve mile limit. If you add the twelve mile limit to our twelve mile limit you will find that there is a buffer zone there somewhere with both French and Newfoundlanders fishing there. All the foreign countries have had some fishing rights in our waters for many years, and the federal government in no way can cut that off suddenly. There are many reasons for it.

You talk about getting in the European market; well , if you kick them all out it is not very likely they are going to buy your fish. I almost touched on Nordsee,which I do not intend to do,only to say on Nordsee - we are not supposed to talk about that, there is a resolution on the Paper - I would say if you have not read it 31.25

April 17, 1978 Tape 1116 (Night) Mr. J. Winsor: required readings, and that is Mr. Cashin's brief from the Newfoundland Fishermen Food and Allied Workers Union. He says it all . when be hears that I said that, tomorrow morning he may fall out of his bed too like the Minister of Health. He may think that there is something wren~ that Jack ~insor said something. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) between capitalism and socialism. MR. J. ~IINSOR: I am not a captial ist,I am in between- management, 3126 PK - 3

,\ p r il 1 7 , 1 9 7 8 Tape 1117 (Ni3ht) DE - l ~!:::t. J. ~HNSOR: that was my function, I think there has been a very good management between capitalism and the working man, the fisherman,and surprisingly enough I imagine that the greater portion of our fishermen are capitalists in th~ir own right. They are self-employed. }!R. S. NEARY: top? HR. J. HINSOR: l·fuo is coming out on The fishermen are going to come out on top eventually because he is tougher than the capitalists. But never mind that;there are many things going to happen in the fishery in the next years.

You can see the trend now.~e inshore fishery has been excellent for the last two years.· Remarkable! An example·.the federal Bait Service bought 1,700,000 pounds of bait two years ago. The year before.or the year after that~they bought 2,000,000 pounds; last year they bought 2,500,000 pounds and there is a shortfall. The fishermen in Hermitage Bay and Fortune Bay,the western part of it,are fishing now with mackerel. When they were fishing with squid they go out and they get 6,000 pounds of fish per day. They go out with mackerel and they are bringing in 1,600 pounds a day.

That is taking a big licking but there is no fault there on anybody's part except that nobody, nobody could estimate the increase in the inshore fishery. And that in itself will give you a clear indication that keeping the foreign boats down to very, very tight restrictions on their quotas~ very definite restrictions, is having an affect on our inshore fishery already. Keep them off the Hamilton Bank. As my han. colleague,the member for Eagle River (Hr. Strachan), has so often said in this House ,that is the spawning ground.

If you put the big boats,the big stern trawlers,the type that ~lordsee would be fishing, that is where they have to fish. That is the only license they will get~a restricted license. 31.27

AtJril 17, 19 78 Tape 1117 nright) DH - 2 ~!R . J. HI:NSOR: and they can only fish down on the Labrador, the southern Labrador and the Northeast Coast,for perch and cod. And I personally would not like to see HR. lL :m. J. if you too great a CARTER: IHNSOR: like, South concentration of trawlers in that area. \-/here is that area? 2(

J) or a ~ little farther down Labrador and the Hamilton Bank. You ruin that you ruin the fishery. It was ~lmnst ruined·that is what happened to our inshore fishery. MR. H. CARTER: At this moment there are about sixty-five trawlers fishing, about sixty-three are foreign ones. }!R. J. lHNSOR: We cannot stop them,like I said. He have to give them a certain amount of leeway. If you are going to kick them out completely and say you cannot get anything, the next thing you will try to sell fish in Europe and you would not sell a pound.

I know the international game may not be very tasteful to us~where they are getting large quotas and our own boats are going out and coming in with as little as 20,000 pounds of perch when she can carry 325,000 pounds, And that is a trip 1 That is a trip : ~e is only allowed four trips per season and when 20,000 is called a trip it is kind of tough on the inshore plants . All the plants are hurting. The hon. ~inister of Justice mentioned Fortune. They have all their licenses for their boats they have do"tom there.

Every one "'f t~eir !:>oats is licensed the old Alfred Booth,which is an old side trawler, if they have to replace that with a stern trawler of bigger capacity, they are going to have to use a restricted license which will only allow them to fish on the southern Labrador and the Funks area like I was just talking about. they afford that? 31.28 How can

.\p ril 17. 1.9 7S Tap e 1117 (~ i ~h

t) D!T - 3 NR. A. HICi<UAN : That has turned out succe .ssful this y ear. They are doin g it on an experime~tal basis. ~~ R. J . WI:-!SOR : lo~ell that i s only a six mont h thing an yway. We have not got boats that are abl e to do it . They are not ice strengthened . They have tried it and even those that are stren g t h ened have b ee n b eat up. I believe there is one in now,one of th e l!'ational Sea boats ,with a $100,000 job to be done on h er. It is going to take a lot of fish to pay for that. ~!R . B.IC:<l'.!ll : ~ R. J. lV I~SOR: : :r.. A. r:.ICZ!.:tA.'-: : MR .

J. f•.'l:NSOR: sid e trawler that we need ~ow many boats do t hey h ave? Six. All side trawlers? All side trawlers, yes. Tha is ideally s uite d for the type of fishing up there on our grounds and the vicinity, ann the side tra~le~s are not so expensive to ma intain . T.1 e ste rn trawlers a1!e very expensive to maintain.

Now if we had a g reat fleet of boats that could deliver fi sh to all the plants around Hewfoundland 1 charte red or o~erated by the government, if the government "'ould like to do chat and send ~he fi sh a nd sort it out to the different pl ants,the plants would make a lot more mone y be cause 3129

April 17 ,1978 Tape No, lllb (;light) AI!- 1 :·lR.J. \HNSOR: their biggest loss is on trawlers, enough to choke you, You can lease a boat. You can lease boats from Germany but what do. you get? A restricted licence where you can only operate it for six months. That is no good, The minister talked about improvements in the fisheries, Yes, the minister is to be commended for many improvements but there are not enough and,I hate to say it but a bit too selective in some places. I m~y be accused of saying the wrong thing there, the£e are political· biases, but that is the name of the ~arne; charity begins at home.

There are a number of places in my district where they need some more facilities. The federal government has spent a bar~el of money trying to revitalize the facilities that they do have. They went down. The fishermen quit the fishery years ago because of the low return on fish and so on~and it is only in the last fifteen to twenty years that t~ey are starting to move back to the fishery and they need all their slips improved and their landing facilities. There are many things that need looking at.

I had an occasion in Seal Cove this year where their holding shed was beat up and they have not got it repaired yet and that was done in November. It is not repaired because it was just when the thing came to a head; it was just before budget time for both the federal and the provincial governments so there was no money , I had to go scrounging and I did get an offer of meney to do it from a private concern.

Fine and dandy!But that is now being taken care off, There is no crash programme where, if people get in trouble, premises are gone by a storm - the minister has said a thousand times here in this House that we hav~ no ongoing programme for replacement of gear or premises or boats that are damaged and fishermen cannot get insurance for that kind of small boat. Sure , they can get insurance for the ~ig longliners and those that are under the aegis of the L.::~an Board. The Minister of Justice spoke about Booth being pushed, I think, being sort of pushed out of the picture.

Now you know, Sir, as well as I do that the decision for Booth to move out of that beautiful place of Fortune was made in the board room in Chicago. Now that is not pushing them. I know the climate betweej the federal government and these people may not have been the most happ y thing,b~~ the federal government is fighting a tou gh battle. If these 3130

April 17 , 1978 Tape ~o. 1118 (Night) AH- 2 :·lR.J. HI~SOR: people built more boats,which they sadly needed - these boats in Fortune, some of them are very old and they needed more-but they spent $5 million and built the finest plant I suppose that is on the East coast; there is nothing better, it is beautiful plant. Very shortly after that the axe fell. Now that was not somebody in Ottawa who pushed them out the door, That was the board room decision where they count the pennie& and that applied to BC Packers as well in Harbour Breton. Nobociy pushed them out. HR.

HICKMAN: They had eleven boats (inaudible) ••ere destined for ~ortune and the~e was a great deal of pressure brought to ~ear. }~. J.WINSOR: Well,that is another story, that is another - NR • HICKM.\::: If these eleven boats had come do= 1Forttme would have been going strong today. MR · J • WI NSOR: Do not forget Nova Scotia is also in the fish business. MR. HICKMAN: never forget. HR. J. \HNSOR : I know they are and that is what we should The federal government has to look at that and there could be pressures put on by Nova Scotia. MR.HICKMAN: Do not get me wrong.

You know, the Lakes will do a good job in Fortune if they can ~et the licences. ~lR..F .WINSOR: I did not intent t:o get you wrong on that one, Sir. You spoke very well of Fortune and the way it is being done .The minister has said there is no Canadian capital available for expansion in the fish business. I do not believe that is true.

There is one case in point where they went in and bought a plant; it was Canadian money, no question about that, no shenanigans, no behind the door deals, I am not suggesting that anyone on the other s .ida said so, but I know that there were not and there ~s ~ore money where that came from. There are not too many purely Canadian companies to talk witA. National Sea could not be considered a purely Canadian company and I am sure B.C. Packers could ~ot be considered a totally Canadian company. There are ramifications and that behind the scenes which 1 un sure some of the hon. members on 31.31

Ap::il 1 i , 1978 Tap e ~o . lll8 (Night) AH- 3 ~!R . F . loli;lSOR: the other side are fully aware of. We have to go back and look at men like the hou. Arthur Nonroe anci Senator George Penney •.;ho are certainly pioneers in the fishing industT}' in ~ ewfoundland and it developed from there and came up. I am sure you people know that probably a little better than I -do. I only bad a few brief II!Oments to go tb;:-ough you r 3132

April l7, 1978 Tape 1119 (Night) PK - l MR. J. WINSOR: estimates, breakdown and so on there, you talk about acouculture fish farming. asked a certain high ranking Fisheries official a number of years ago,when I had nothing to do but look out of the window in Gaultois and watch the trawlers coming and aoing. "How about Bay D'Espoir for a farming set uo? HON. W. CARTER: We were thinking about that. MR. J. WINSOR: He oooh-ooohed the idea. "You are crazy! The water is too cold." The power station was there then, the generating station.

And it was only about six months ago that I saw in the papers, the local papers,where it had been suddenly discovered by some people who were interested in the fisheries that the tailrace from generating stations gave much warmer water in those areas and made it adaptable to fish farming. MR. W. CARTER: That is one of the places we are going to develop a fish farm, ~·e hope. MR. J. WINSOR: That is one of the places? MR. W. CARTER: One of the places. MR. J. ~!INSOR: I did not see it mentioned in your report, I think it was somewhere in Placentia Bay. But I am sure my han. friend for Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) will have something to say about that. The Salt Fish Corporation was mentioned. It has done a darn good job under my old friend,Mr. Maloney,whom know very well from when he was working in Ramea, and has done a darn good job. It has filled in a gap where the men caught fish and they could not do anything else with it but salt it. There were no facilities for handling it fresh. There are still a few areas where the fishermen would like to sell it fresh because of the differential in price.

It is not that great a spread but there is a certain amount of work that they do not want to have to do with their fish when it comes in. I think I have covered both of the things that I would like to talk about now. I do not know if I have used up my time, but that is not too important. There are other people on this side and on the other side that would like to get into the debate - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3133

April 17, 1978 Tape 1119 (Night) Mr . J. Winsor: -as well as myself. But I would recommend Mr . Cashin's brief as required reading for everybody in this House, especially on the other side. My considered opinion is opinion is that Nordsee would be an error. I admire the gentlemen on the other side who have fought so hard for it. I never have seen you fight so hard for anything else that has gone on here. give you top marks for putting up a good fight in that particular area. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): The han. the member for BonavistaNorth. MR . G. CROSS: Mr.

Chairman, in this debate on the estimates today I have certainly listened long and intensely to what has been said from one side of the House to the other. When the han. member PK - 2 for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) spoke since supper,he certainly mentioned that we have had six Ministers of Fisheries, I think, since 1972. Well,certainly we have only had one since 1975. So if we have had six ministers in six years, five out of these six came in three~ the present minister that we have has been with us for three years.

So I would say almost, say almost three, but that is to the nearest year anyway, three years, and I say perhaps we have found the right man. I said perhaps we have found the right man to act as the Minister of Fisheries. I do not want to give him too many pats on the shoulder, but I do believe, and when you believe something you say it loud enough for people to hear,that the han. the Minister of Fisheries that we have has been a man that has worked long and hard for what he believes in. think he is dedicated to the job that he is doing. And I also would say that the han. member for the Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow),who spoke a few minutes ago, is a hard working and a dedicated member. As I listened today to people talk from both sides of the House there are a few things that I can agree with regardless of whether a man in Opposition says it or a man on the government side says it. I listened to the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), also the 3134

April 17, 1978 Tape 1120 (Night) PK - l Mr. Cross: hon. member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), also the hon. member who just took his seat when he spoke of the Hamilton Banks and it being the spawning grounds, the breeding grounds for a fish that replenishes the stocks of the Northeast Coast. Certainly one hon. gentleman spoke of a foreign ban, but I believe that there is a need for a total ban on the Hamilton Bank. I do believe that. Certainly the Hamilton Banks is only a small area of our Northern fishing waters, certainly it is the spawning grounds.

Our scientists may tell us that we can take a quota of so much, so many pounds, but it is not what we take,it is what we destroy in the process of taking it. I do not know if it is true or not, I never visited a dragger when she came from the Hamilton Bank,but I have been told that there is an inch and two inches of spawn on their decks if it is not washed off before they get in. If that is the truth,again I state it is not the pounds that is processed in our plants, but the pounds that are destroyed that makes it necessary for the Hamilton Banks to be protected. That I believe is the honest to goodness truth.

We talk of scientists. That is the truth. But I also said in this hon. House last year, and I say it again,that there is no better scientists than our fishermen · , or there is no better experimenters than our fishermen for the simple reason that year after year our fishermen have been fishing within their boats. I am proud to be associated with the fishery. I listened to the hon.member for Burtn-Placentia West (Mr. Canning) talking about his association with with the fishery.

I do not want to take up the time of this House talking about myself, but I can say too that I have been associated with the fishery from a very, very early age, a very, very early age. My father was always a Labrador skipperman, and I fished for five years with my father~ and lived to see the day when the Labrador fishery was finished, where boats costing tens of thousands of dollars were put ashore - on the mud, they called it, on the mud to die. But my father did not put his boat ashore:he put her:•into another trade and made his living with that boat .

When the boat was too old ~ and he was too old to have her repaired , he took up the inshore fishery 3135

April 17, 1978 Tape 1120 (Night) PK - 2 Mr. Cross: again and fished in the inshore fishery for some twelve or fifteen or sixteen years altogether. And fifteen years ago can remember my father fishing with three gillnets and a jigger~and fifteen years ago he brought more fish with three gillnets and a jigger than he did twelve years later with eighteen gillnets. That is an experiment enough to tell you that the fish is not there: three nets bring more fish than eighteen.

And again the three nets that he used on the one little spot of ground,he did not shift the mooring for the Summer only straightened his net some times, and when he used the eighteen he had to go from shoal to shoal and spot to spot, and he could not take as much fish in eighteen, twelve years later. It means that our fish stocks were depleted. And certainly when our fishermen say , and there are many fishermen in the district that I represent, that the answer is that the spawning ground is the Hamilton Banks and that it should be left alone, and the day might come, Mr.

Chairman, and I say the day will come when we will possibly have to leave the Hamilton Banks alone. or our fish stocks will not replenish like we are thinking that they will. This evening the hon. Leader of the Opposition spoke and if I can remember his words rightly he said there was no surplus. If that is the truth then our total allowable catch is too high. The hon. the Minister of Fisheries said the foreigners are taking 52,000 metric tons in our 200 mile limit in our Northern waters. Certainly if there is no surplus the total allowable catch 3136

April 17, 1978 Tape 1121 (:U~ht) Dll - 1 is too high. h'e should not have to suffer for that. But ••ho sets the total allm•able catch? r~aturally the total allowable catch is set by the federal government and if that is the truth then the total allowable catch is too hi~h. If the~ is no surplus, that means there is nothing, there are no potmds, thea!e is no fish. there to regenerate the stocks. Or perhaps I am thinking <·Trang. 1\:·! HON. :!EHBER: It is settled by ICNAI. t!R. G. CROSS: It is settled by - "e have control, we are told.

The federal government controls the 2f)t1 mile limit anrl we are also told that the federal government sets the number of fish that is taken. They may co-operate, it might be joint between ICNAF and Canada, but because t<e have a 200 mi:le limit then the say rests Hith the federal government. Getting back to a few figures: If we divide the last eight years into two equal parts,four years each,we will find for the first four years since 1970 there has been an approximate total,the nearest million,of $25 million spent in Newfoundland in the fishery.

If we take the last four years we will find that to the nearest millicn there has been $81 million spent. So again these figures show that we are putting an emphasis on our resource. Certainly the fishery is one of our princiPle renewable resources. Certainly these figures do not lie and they tell us that we are going to improve our fishery by spending~more dollars into the fishery . I have spent about ten minutes. There is a lot more I would like to say. There are a lot more people who want to speak. But certainly there is one or tt·T O other things that I want to say before I finish up.

This year in the district of Bonavista Nor~h a half million dollars is being spent in a fish plant for expansion. In the district that I represent~ especially in the northern part of the district , since 1963 the story of the fishing industry has been successful7starting as a salt fish plant, expanding to salt and fresh,then 3i.J7

Tape 1121 (~ight) D\7 - 2 CROSS: certainly expanding into a variety of other species-herring, crab 1 plus a fish meal plant. In 1969 there were 160 employed in that plant; in 1978 ther~ will be~Nith fifty new jobs created because of expansion ,there will in access of 400 employed there or so I am told by the man who operates the plant and certainly he knows what he is talking about. This is Valleyfield in the district of Bonavista North. So it has been a story of success . But when the plant was taken over in 1967 nobody expected that it would become what it is today, but it takes dedicated and sincere people.

And if we talk of the half million dollars that is being spent there, the provincial dollars are few bUt again I have been told by the man who operates that plant,and I believe in him,that the federal dollars being spent there are few as ~~ell. It is private enterprise,the man who is plowing back into the fishery some of the profits that he is making,and that is the kind of people that we want in Newfoundland. In 1966,1967 and 1968 the district that I represent,parts of the district,certainly the only thing you could hear was the thing resettlement.

There wasland again I come back to the old,historic town of Greenspond : a fish plant one time in Greenspond and there was an ice plant there because there was a fish plant there. It is only this year again that something that was there one time is being replaced and put back again because the tenders have been called to have an ice making machine restored for quality of the fish in that community because there are more fishing, more fishermen going fishing and there are more pounds of fish been brought in to he kept and preserved, a good quality 0f fish.

Certainly there are youn~er fisher- men~getting their longliners, , small and large, to p,o back to the fishery,who are giving up good paying jobs in the 31.38

.\pril 17, 1978 Tape 1121 (Night) DH - 3 ~~R. G. CROSS: city or elsewhere to go ~ac k to the rock where they lived because they know they know they can make a living there, a good living there-- 31.39

April 17,1978 Tape No. 1122 (Hight) AH-1 ::..'<..C:l.CSS: there is no thing wrong with that. B Ll t then ag.:!.in there are young fishermen going back to the fishery, Certainly they are going back,but they are going back to the fishery to do two things; they can get a commercial licence,but with the licencing as it is a c