Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland' FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 45 3 June 1986

The House met at ;3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: - The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to infonn bon. members that a grant of $250,587 has been made available to the Bay d'Espoir Development Association to complete their salmon hatchery facility at Bay d'Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R.

AYLWARD: This grant l:J.as been made possible through ·the current federal/provincial Rural Development Subsidary Agreement which is designed to encourage development in rural Newfoundland. My department has been involved in this project for two reasons. Firstly, it will provide a foundation for the salmon aquaculture industry that is developing in this Province, and secondly, the salmon smolt produced may be used to enhance salmon rivers throughout the Province.

The salmon hatchery at Bay d'Espoir uses waste heat generated by the Bay d'Espoir hydro facility to provide warm water to its L2606 June 3, 1986 Vol XL holding tanks. It is essential that a constant water temperature be maintained to ensure that the stock remains safe. This grant will be used to ensure that the back-up system is in place should hy.d~o . have to shut down the generator that currently supplies the hatchery.

Realizing the need for advanced facilities, the provincial government has committed, including this grant, $1.84 million to the facility, ensuring that it will be one of the most technically advanced aquaculture sites in Canada. This project is another good example of this government's commitment to the development of rural Newfoundland through its encouragement of worthwhile projects sponsored by rural development associations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hennitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of my colleague for Burgee-Bay d' Espoir (Mr. Gilbert) and because I have some first-hand knowledge of this particular undertaking, I take pleasure in responding to the minister and to commend him and his department, and the administration of which he is a part, for continuing to support this particular project. It is a project that I have a real fondness for, because I was involved in getting the initial funding for this project some four No. 45 R2606

or five years ago, when we began · to not only discuss the idea but to do something about it in the Bay d'Espoir area, during my time as a federal member. I take great pleasure in seeing this latest advance on this project. It is a project that I believe very strongly in, a project that offers a fair amount of possibility and potential for the people of Bay d'Espoir and for the employment potential in the Bay d'Espoir area. It is also one, Mr.

Speaker, of a number of recommendations that were made in a report to government by the Research and Productivity Council of New Brunswick as far back as 1973, when they made that particular report. The fact that there was a by-election ongoing at the same time was a complete coincidence of course. The point I want to make now is that that report has lain largely dormant on the shelves and I believe this is the only recommendation of the many dozens that are in that report that has eventually gotten off the ground. It is an opportunity to appeal to the administration again to resurrect that report.

It would require some updating, but it still has a number of good ideas that would rebound to the economic benefit of the people of Bay d'Espoir. This recommendation, in the form it is being implemented, has the active support of both levels of government, the current administration in Ottawa and the former Liberal administration. I am delighted, Mr. Speaker, to associate myself with this announcement today. KR. SPEAKER: L2607 June 3, 1986 Vol XL Any further statements by ministers? MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, __ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R.

AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased today to inform hon. members of the appointment of Dr. Pauline Duivenvoorden to the position of regional veterinarian for the Port au Port - Robinsons - Codroy Valley area. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hea:r;! MR. R. AYLWARD: Dr. Duivenvoorden holds a degree in veterinary medicine from the Ontario Veterinary College at Guelph and comes to us with excellent references as well as having experience in both large and small animal practice. Originally from a dairy farm in New Brunswick, she has a strong agricultural background.

Dr. Duivenvoorden will have her main office at Stephenville and will operate out of the Robinson's office two days a week. She will take up her duties in late June. I am extremely pleased to find a person with Dr. Dui venvoorden' s qualifications to wot"k in the agt"iculture industry for the West Coast. Mr. Speaket", to my knowledge, this is the first woman veterinarian we have had on the pt"ovincial staff. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 45 R2607

MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the minister for providing a copy of both his statements. Just for' information purposes, my colleague in front responded to the first statement simply because of his knowledge of the particular project, and I will respond to this one. I would certainly congratulate the minister and his department in obtaining someone with the qualifications · of Dr. Duivenvoorden.

As he is aware, of course; we have had throughout the Province some particular staffing problems, or being able to serve the needs of the rural areas outside the central parts or the larger parts of our Province. I am pleased to see that a replacement could be made fairly promptly in a case like this, and in the case of areas such as Labrador, where agriculture is not a big thing but it is a growing thing, that we have been able to, and the minister has been able to provide veterinary service on a pretty regular basis, both from the pC'ivate sector and also from the government sector.

I think this is a good move, a continuing move to indicate that the veterinary needs of our Province are being well looked after. I would also like to extend congratulations to Dr. Duivenvoorden on her appointment, and also on the fact that she is the first woman to fill such a position. Thank you. L2608 June 3, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: At this stage I would like to welcome to the gallery ten high school students from Stella Maris School in Trepassey. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the -member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn). Does the minister realize that the primary-elementary school in Heart's Content, that the Avalon North School Board wants to close down in September, was built by the residents of Heart's Content, was improved by the residents of Heart's Content, has increasing enrollment, provides the students with music, physical education and home economics in addition to their regular programme, and would he not agree that this is precisely the kind of small school that we want to keep open in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR.

HEARN: Mr. Speaker, yes, I am very well aware of that. I have met with the committee the parents involved have set up. I have also met with the Superintendent of the Board on a number of occasions. I just recently met with the Chairman, and I would think the No. 45 R2608 ~

Vice-Chairman, or at least another board member, and discussed the whole situation with them, and went through a number of items that were brought up by the parents in their discussion with me. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Does the minister realize that the Committee from Heart's Content was not really allowed to meet with the whole school board, just a couple of executive members and one of the executive members, who is against the busing of five, six, seven and eight year old students, was not . even allowed at the meeting?

Is the minister aware of this insulting and uncaring attitude on the part of that particular school board? Will the minister now do a little more than simply discuss things with the parties involved? Will he get more actively involved at this point? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, this information was brought to my attention, immediately after it happened, of course, by the member for the area, who has done quite a good job in representing the cause of the people and is very much on side with them.

Any meetings between local groups and the boards, of course, as with any other agency, is between the local groups and the boards. I cannot speak for what a board does or what a board does not do. L2609 June 3, 1986 Vol XL MR. BAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Gander. MR. BAKER: the_. One wonders what the minister actually does. Is the minister aware that the school that these children are being bused to - MR. DAWE: He is doing his job. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR.

BAKER: Is the minister aware that the school that these children are being bused to does not have adequate facilities to handle the extra children especially in terms of lunch-room facilities? Is the minister aware that the road between Heart's Content and Winterton is very dangerous in Winter? When is the minister going to take these things into consideration and do simply more than talking to the school board? When is he going to start applying some of his influence that we assume he has? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr.

Speaker, during the course of the past year. and for many years certainly, we have heard the gentleman opposite criticize this government for not decentralizing authority, for making decisions in here which could be better made at the local level. In the field of education authority who do a area. We No. 45 we have delegated to local school boards very good job in the have very professional R2609

people opeLating at the school boaLd levels who aLe well awaLe of the vaLious problems involved in any move they make in education, whetheL it_ be a move of moving people OL a move within various pLogrammes that they are bringing onstream. These things aLe well assessed and discussed and any decisions taken are taken with all these facts in mind. When the final decision is made, the decision is made upon all these facts and figures involved. It is not easy sometimes foL boaLds or for governments OL foL anybody else to make decisions.

But as it is Light now that decision lies in the hands of the local school boaLd, two-thiLds of whose members weLe elected by the people in the area to represent their educational concerns. The issue in Heart's Content, as in St. Bernard's or up in Newtown or anywhere· else, I have discussed these issues with all of them to let them know what we are doing to help alleviate some of the problems in LUral areas. And I sympathize with people, but there are two sides to every story and it is a matter of bringing the concerns together and then realizing what is the greateL good and making decisions based on that. MR.

BAKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementaLy, the hon. the membeL for Gander. MR. BAKER: The minister, after he met with the group the first time, said that he would report back to them and as far as I know to this point he has not repoLted back any progLess to them at all. I would L2610 June 3, 1986 Vol XL ask the minister, seeing that this commit tee is in the gallery today, will he meet with them after the Question Period and report back to them exactly what he has done? Can he sive them any hope for the future at all for their school? SOME HON. MEMBERS: HeaL, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, when the committee was in to see me, the meeting arranged by their MHA. I was glad to meet with them. I have met with all committees anywhere, it does not matter what they are, who they are or where they aLe from. I. have met with anybody who has asked to meet with me, either on my turf or on theirs, it does not make any difference to me. At the time I suggested· that I would be quite willing to meet with them, or even with the board, provided the board invited me out to a meeting.

There has been some discussion on th~t, I have not been in vi ted yet to meet with the full board out there, so consequently, when we get something definite, I will certainly talk to them. If they want to meet with me at any time the meeting does not have to be arranged through the bon. member. My office is always available for people to contact me. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HeaL, hear! MR. BARRY: What aLrogance, Mr. Speaker! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the LeadeL of the Opposition. No. 45 R2610

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would · like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. I have received reports that a certain police raid was carried out the weekend before last and there have been certain allegations made with respect to the extent of the force used in order for the police to carry out the duty which they felt it necessary to carry out. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question! Question! MR. DAWE: What question? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

BARRY: I wonder if the minister is aware of the incident to . which I refer and whether she is seeing that her department has that evening's event completely investigated? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, it is hard to know if we are thinking about the same incident, but I, personally, and a senior official of the Department of Justice, have received enquiries and complaints from, actually, two other members of this Assembly, who chose to t'aise their concerns pt'ivately and t'esponsibly.

In response to those concerns about the way the police handled a particular investigation the weekend before last, the Chief of Police has undertaken to conduct an internal investigation about what happened that evening and to follow police policy in responding to whatever conclusions are reached. When that matter has been dealt with, which should be L2611 June 3, 1986 Vol XL very shortly, then I will be in a position to provide more infot'Ination, depending on what is relayed to me by the Chief of Police, to the people who have approached me pt'ivately or, indeed, to this Assembly. MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I think the minister should keep in mind that the exercise of police power is a matter that affects the general public and that we do not want to see the commencement of Rarnbo-type actions in this Province. The minister has a responsibility to ensure publicly, Mr. Speaker, that any such allegation is thoroughly investigated, but we will wait for the minister's response. I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. MR. MATTHEWS: Who is he asking the question to, Mr. Speaker? HR. FUREY: It is a new question! HR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. BARRY: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. I wonder if the Minister of Education has received any complaints from the Newfoundland School Bus Operators Association concerning the take over of more and more school bus contracts directly by school boards and, specifically, whether the minister No. 45 R2611

is aware that recently I believe there has been departmental approval from his department for something in the area of fifty school buses to be operated by _a school board on the Burin Peninsula? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, the School Bus Ope:.;ators Association has been in contact with my office. I have met with the executive person involved with the Association. I have also met with the Association itself, along with the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) and the member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Kat thews) and some bus operators from the area who were in discussing the problem mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition. I have also been made aware that there is one other area where .the school board has requested - or will be requesting, at least, because it has not come to me directly, permission to take over the bus runs. Quite some time ago, as the hon. member well knows when he was a member of Cabinet, the school boards were given the authority to run their own systems if they so wished or they could go to tender for bus systems. Some across the Province operate their own systems, some do not.

The School Bus Operators Association represents only a small number of the bus operators in the Province and has certainly made representation on behalf of the group affected on the Burin Peninsula. A request comes to the transportation

section of my department and it is then submitted to Treasury Board for approval. The request that they L2612 June 3, 1986 Vol XL submitted, after it had been held for quite some time to give them a chance to have local discussions, was a approved, I understand, by Treasury Board. That does not necessarily mean that the board will operate its own system. ·They can if they so wish. They may decide not to. At this stage we have not been told whether or not they intend to operate their own system for, we will say, this coming year. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: I wonder if the minister would make enquiries because my understanding is that the school bus operators have been informed that the board would be operating its own system. I wonder would the minister enquire whether in fact there is adequate notice given to school bus operators holding existing contracts in light of the fact that these individuals have to make an investment and they have to make arrangements for banking and so forth and there is a certain period of time usually contemplated for such arrangements?

Also, I wonder would the minister indicate whether his department, or he as minister, has any view as to the ability of school boards to carry out this type of operation with the same degree of efficiency as the private entrepreneur? Is it his department's philosophy that the private entrepreneur does not have a role to play in the operation of school buses? And if so, why has this conclusion been arrived at? And does this apply No. 45 R2612

to other areas government policy? MR. SPEAKER: as well of The bon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, in relation to first part of the bon. member's question about adequate notice, one of the concerns, I suppose, that we have about decisions that are made perhaps by any group, is the fact that sometimes decisions are made without what we would consider full and proper consultation. That sort of perturbs me at any time.

Sometimes if something new is going to be done, whether it be a bus operation taken over, a school being closed, I personally feel the proper way to 9o it is, first of all, to consult with the people who are directly involved and, whatever you are going to do, at least let them know, and then make whatever other moves come from there. In this case I will certainly check into the fact to see if there is a certain notice required and if that has been complied with. But, from what I understand, certainly adequate notice has been given and the school board can take over the bus operation.

In relation to the departmental opinion, we have throughout the Province right now some boards who operate their own system. To say one system is a little bit better than the other, I am sure would call for perhaps indepth analysis. But certainly the systems that are operated by the schools, in our opinion at least, are certainly as good as the other operations.

Perhaps if we did, as ·I say, an indepth study and looked at the dollar and cent aspect and L2613 June 3, 1986 Vol XL the use of the buses after school, and go on and on, including the safety aspect, then you might be able to say one is better than the other. But I do not think at this stage any of .us could really say that factually. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the President of the Council, the Minister Responsible for the Petroleum Directorate (Mr. Marshall).

I want to quote a statement by the Chai~an of Bow Valley Resources, Mr. Byron Seaman. He says 'There is not a Canadian gas and oil company that has the wherewithal to undertake offshore drilling now. That aspect, the PIP grants of the National Energy Programme, was a good one and should have been continued. It is needed mor-e now with crude oil prices at $15 a barrel than it was when oil was $35 a barrel. ' Does the minister concur with that statement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. L'fA.RSHALL: Not entirely, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: No. 45 R2613

Husky-Bow Valley has a rig idle at Mortier Bay that it apparently cannot lease. Does this signal that drilling activities will be off, or be cut back on our Newfoundland offshore this year? The number of rigs are presently down to four from a previous high of eight in previous years. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether that is a soliloquy or whether it is a question. I assume the hon. gentleman means it as a question.

The fact of the matter is, much to the sorrow of the hon. gentlemen there opposite as you can see reflected in their debate on the .Atlantic Accord, they want to cast gloom and doom on everything. The fact of the matter is, and I know it will be to the immense sadness of the hon. gentlemen, we have the most prospective area offshore, not just in Canada, North America or in Europe, Mr. Speaker, but in the world. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, we have had, over the past Summer, not one, not two, but three and going up, Mr. Speaker, significant discoveries.

I think the bon. gentlemen are hung up on PIP because it was the Liberal government brought it in, and they are so narrow that they have it now in their own minds, Mr. Speaker, that it is PIP rather than the Almighty that determines where oil and gas lie underneath the sea. Kr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman is getting up. I hope he can now ask a supplementary question without reading again L2614 June 3, 1986 Vol XL from the espistle and he is reading from, because I do not know whether the answer I have now given will follow the prepared test that he h_~s to warrant a supplementary question. MR.

FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR.. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, we now have four rigs on the Grand Banks compared to eight in previous years and that, I would think, speaks for itself. My supplementary, Sir: The daily drilling rates are down by 50 per cent in the North Sea, so I ask the minister is that true for the Newfoundland offshore? Will he concur with the statement that even the multi-nationals are not prone to investing money in extra drilling activity in the offshore because of low world oil prices? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR.. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, drilling. MR. TULK: Yes, four rigs. MR.. MARSHALL: they are still I am sure a drill would get through the subterranean mass of Newfoundland much quicker than it would get through the bon. gentleman's head. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is they are still drilling. I just have to explain to the han. gentlemen, I know it is great sorrow to the bon. gentlemen, I know they will cry when they hear it, but the No. 45 R2614

fact of the matter is we have the most prospective area offshore in the world and, as the hon. gentleman knows, it is going to be developed there is going to be exploration and there is going to be development on the offshore of this Province for years and years to come; it is going to be done under the Atlantic Accord; it is going to be done on the basis that we get the same revenues from every barrel of oil as if it were located on land; it is going to be done with us having a choice of production systems; it is going to be done with an equal joint management board; it is going to be done with employment for young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians for years to come.

So, cry, cry, my bon. gentlemen there opposite! MR. FUREY: Wait until we come horne. MR. MATTHEWS: Are you going back to Toronto '? MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education. I wonder can the minister comment upon the accuracy of a news report corning out of, I assume, a recent conference held at Stephenville, sponsored by the Newfoundland and Labrador Association for Adult Education, and the news report stated that this Province has a colossal illiteracy problem?

I think they gave two figures: One, 50,000 for illiteracy; and 150,000 for functional illiteracy, making a combined total ·Of 200,000 illiterate people in the L2615 June 3, 1986 Vol XL Province. Can the minister comment upon the accuracy of this? MR. DAWE: Which minister? MR. LUSH: I said the Minister of Education in the beginning. PREMIER PECKFORD: Talk about illiterate! MR. DAWE: You are education. MR. SPEAK ER: dealing with adult Order, please! Order, please! The han. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, seeing that the question is corning from the han. member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Lush), I will be glad to answer it. The figures that he mentions certainly are a concern not only to the Minister of Education or the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) but to all han. members on this side, and I sure to the members on that side and everybody else in the Province. However, one of the things we should be very concerned with is whether or not these figures are accurate and what is meant by illiteracy. I think now they say people who do not have a Grade IX education are illiterate.

Now, if we base our facts and figures upon that supposition, then undoubtedly yes, the number would be way out of proportion with what we would expect. However, I know people who got very little, if any, formal schooling but because of self training, etc. , they are certainly not illiterate by any No. 45 R2615

means. PREMIER PECKFORD: They ask more intelligent questions than the people opposite. MR. HEARN: Exactly. We also have, perhaps, ·people who do have a fair amount of formal education who find it very, very difficult to read and write properly. So, · to say that we have X number of people in the Province who are illiterate, I think if we use such figures, we may have to make sure that we are using the right definition of illiteracy. But even if we have a small proportion of the Province illiterate, then it is a serious situation.

One of the reasons why we have set up, for instance, our small schools study, why we have put more money into school boards, why we have more co-ordinators operating, why we are trying to deliver to the more rural areas of the Province where the situation is probably more serious than in the larger areas, is we are trying to deliver the type of education that will ensure that the people who are now coming up through the system, when they come out, somebody will not be turning around in ten or twelve years time and saying, X number of people in our Province are illiterate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Kr. Speaker, whichever way it seems you cut whichever way we L2616 June :r, 1986 as though the pie, define Vol XL illiteracy, it looks like this Province has a figure anywhere ftom 30 to 40 per cent illiteracy. Since the problem comes under the Department of Education, I will ask the Minister of Career Development what are we doing to solve this problem, how we are dealing with this colossal problem?

It has certainly got to be the highest degree of illiteracy in Canada and certainly, Sir, it is a sad indictment of the educational system of this Province. So, can the Development department is a resolution illiteracy in MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Career indicate what his doing to bring about to this problem of the Province? The bon. the Minister of Career Development. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, obviously the question is not a whole lot different than the first question answered so well by the Minister of Education.

In defining literacy, obviously, as the Minister of Education identified, you can break down any number. I am sure there are some people at the University and some others who might think persons are illiterate if they have less than a Master's degree, and others who might think if you have less than a Bachelor's degree. Obviously, in Newfoundland, as in many parts of this country where you have rural economies, sure, there is a serious illiteracy problem.

In this Province, besides the excellent school system we have and the $500 or so million that we spend on that, we have another $180 million of expenditures in the post-secondary system. Part of that $180 million is designed No. 45 R2616

to make adult education courses available to anyone in this Province who wishes to avail of those courses, but one of the biggest problems in solving the problem of illiteracy is getting the persons to come forward, acknowledge that they have a problem, and take the courses which this government makes available to them. MR. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, in the Province of Ontario they seem to have an excellent programme with respect to dealing with illiteracy and it is called 'Beat the Streets' .

I am wondering has the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies studied this particula~ programme and wondering what implications it has for this Province? Has he studied this programme, 'Beat the Streets,' and can he indicate whether that programme has any significance, any degree of practicality, for this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: It is not an unusual proposition for the Opposition Party of Newfoundland to recommend an Ontario scenario to make things better within Newfoundland.

Obviously programmes that work in Ontario do not always work well in Newfoundland. We do have our own programmes in Newfoundland. We have had 'Teachers on Wheels, ' we have programmes here in St. John's L2617 June 3, 1986 Vol XL to get persons back to school in the evenings. We do have a programme at night so that persons MR. LUSH: Obviously they are not working. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, obviously some persons in the Opposition are not concerned with the illiteracy problem that we have in Newfoundland, some other persons in the Liberal Opposition want to give an Ontario solution.

We have a solution in this Province, Mr. Speaker; we do make people available, we do make progra.Jll!lles available. The problem that we do have, as I mentioned earlier, is trying to convince persons who have this problem to come forward and seek the aid which this government will gladly supply to them. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR . FENWI CK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Education. I finally got a copy of the brief Exploring New Pathways presented by the Newfoundland Teachers' Association.

I have a question about one of the statistics they have in it. In it they reaffirm their commitment to the Denominational Education system, but they also indicate the isolated nature of the system now has possibly led to additional expenditures that we have to meet as a result of it. My question to No. 45 R2617

the minister is on page nineteen it indicates, 'There is such a duplication of effort that we believe as much as one dollar in -five' -may not be effectively spent, or a total of $77 million. My question to the minister is, since your department obviously has some knowledge of this particular area, could you give us some indication of whether or not this is an accurate figure, or what figures you have to indicate how much the duplication is costing us? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr.

Speaker, a few nights ago the Social .Policy Committee of Cabinet met with the Newfoundland Teachers' Association and they presented to us the brief, Exploring New Pathways, a brief presented not to the Department of Education but to government. Because it contains a number of very involved resolutions, we suggested to them that we would take time to analyze the brief and then make a formal response rather than making one off the top of our heads. Certainly, that is the way we operate.

However, just to elaborate to some point on the question by the hon. member, which is a good question, I have been saying myself during the year, when I meet with various people involved in education, the Denominational Education Councils, etc. , that we have to have a look at the situation to make sure we are getting the best value for our dollars.

To say that one dollar in every five is wasted because of duplication, etc., may or may not be accurate, and I am sure that neither I nor anybody else at this stage could tell the hon. member, L2618 June 3, 1986 Vol XL because there is no way to be able to say whether or not certain dollars can be saved. If you said you do not need x number of schools, great. You know, it is one-fifth so you save one-fifth of the money. That is not necessarily the case. When we had the original amalgamation of the Salvation Army, Anglican Church, United Church, etc. , it was supposed to be done to save money.

But bringing people together costs more money in the long run because then extra services have to be provided, and we can go on and on. However, of course, we got better value for the dollar spent. So when you start talking about statistics and dollars, unless, once again, you have a very indepth analysis of the whole system done, it would be very hard to answer a question like that. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: I agree with the minister that obviously a study has to be done.

The Newfoundland Teachers Association brief actually suggests that, and the recommendation is that the provincial government should establish a Royal Commission with the broad mandate of examining the administrative and economic disadvantages of the Current Denominational system and provide recommendations for improvement. My question is: Since we obviously recognize that a study has to be done, is the government - No. 45 R2618

contemplating either setting up this Royal Commission that is asked for, or some other commission or study body, in order to establish whether or not these figures are accurate and whether or not the savings that they point out can be accomplished? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, certainly the question asked by the bon. member is one that we will be taking note of. The brief, as I mentioned, was presented to government.

Government will in proper time proper time being, of course. as soon as possible - will be making a response to the Newfoundland Teachers' Association and will be answering the very question that he asked. MR. BARR Y: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I would like to direct a question to the Premier, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Premier whether he would confirm that although he was prepared to accept very little in the way of provincial involvement, that in fact the efforts of Premier Peterson.

Premier Getty and several other premiers have now resulted in much stronger protection for the provinces than the Premier of this Province was prepared to fight for in the free trade negotiations? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. L2619 June 3, 1986 Vol XL PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad the Leader of the Opposition asked that question. As a matter of fact. what happened last night in the meeting was that Premier Peterson and Premier Getty and Premier Pawley accepted my proposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: I was last night, Mr. · Speaker. supported in my proposition by the Liberal Premier of Quebec, the Liberal Premier of Prince Edward Island, the Premier of Nova Scotia, the Premier of New Brunswick, the Premier of Saskatchewan. and the Premier of British Columbia. What we achieved late last night, Mr. Speaker, was that Premier Peterson's suggestion of being at the table would not be accepted, and was not accep~ed. And what we · have is the same processes we had before.

The continuing committee on trade, which was established and which I talked about a couple of weeks ago, will continue in its present role, the Ministerial Committee will continue in its present role, and the First Ministerial Group will continue in its present role. So I am very proud, Mr. Speaker, to have been a part of yesterday's meetings. The Prime Minister was absolutely excellent in his approach to the subject.

The provinces which supported the concept of the three-tiered consultative mechanisms were successful in persuading Premier Peterson, Premier Getty and Premier Pawley to go along with that rather than have a range of provincial representatives at the table. No. 45 R2619

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I would like to ask a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: It is very curious, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier would find it necessary to make any proposal to change the way in which the negotiations were to proceed when he said he was satisfied two months ago with the arrangements then in place. PREMIER PECKFORD: Exactly, Mr.

Speaker. To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I went to the meeting yesterday at 4:00 p.m., and last night at 6:00 p.m., and said, 'We will continue the three mechanisms we now have in place,• there should not be any changes; nor were there. L2620 June 3, 1986 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. PATTERSON: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Placentia, to that point of order. MR.

PATTERSON: A moment ago, when the Premier was speaking, the Leader of the Opposition said, "You have egg on your face." I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition it is much better to have egg on his face than to have lipstick. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. Notices of Motion MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act." No. 45 R2620

Petitions MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I rise to present another series of petitions. This one is from the Central Regional Libraries in Grand Falls. I was hoping that the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) would be here. Reading the prayer of the petition, "We, the undersigned, petition the provincial government to put in place the necessary funding to complete The Encyclopaedia of Newfoundland and Labrador.

This, by the way, becomes the fourth petition from the Grand Falls area, and I was hoping that it finally establishes the criteria required for the member for Grand Falls to stand up and speak to the petition. Unfortunately, he is not here so we have to hope he will at another time. The next petition, Mr. Speaker, is from the Alexander Bay Public Library in Glovertown, Newfoundland. MR. WARR EN : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, petition at a I understand one time.

I have a L2621 June 3, 1986 Vol XL petition also. MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry. I did not hear the point the hon. member made. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member just presented a petition, and now he is going ahead to present a second petition. I have a petition also, Mr. Speaker. MR. FENWICK ; To that point of order, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Mr . To that point of order, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: I appreciate what the member is saying, but the fact is that there are so many petitions that if I presented one at a time we will be doing it for about two years in a · row.

I would prefer to do it as quickly as possible, not to take too much time of the House. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order, what we have established here for a long time is that a member speaks for five minutes if he wishes, then somebody on the other side speaks for five. It seems reasonable to me that the hon. member will be cut off at the end of five minutes and then I will recognize the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The second petition, as I said, Mr.

Speaker, is from the Alexander Bay Public Library in Glovertown. It is an interesting one because what I am getting, I find in these No. 45 R2621

petitions, is mo~e and mo~e of them coming from smaller communities. I think that it is impo~tant for members of the House to ~ealize. In a city like St. John's, which has the Queen Elizabeth II Library and a series of good public lib~aries that have a tremendous numbe~ of volumes, it is probably not as apparent to the membe~s of the need for this particular kind of work. It is in small isolated communities where the library does not have the kind of resources that a city like St.

John's has that this particular work is absolutely invaluable, not only for the gene~al public, who are quite interested in Newfoundland history and culture, but also, Mr. Speaker, for students who are doing research on their high school courses on Newfoundland history and culture. I think it is for these individuals we have to continue to press this matter. I am hoping to be able to dwindle the pile of petitions down somewhat but every day several more of them come in. We will see how short we can make it but I will continue to present them as quickly as I can. The next one, Mr. Speaker, is from St.

Augustine's Central High School in Trinity, Bonavista Bay. This one is signed by fifty-three members of that school. I believe it is usually signed by the teache~s and the students as well. This is the thi~d one. I also have a few letters I would like to ~ead in, depending upon the amount of time. The next one is from Clarence Brown, who is the Sec~etary Treasury of the Lewisporte ·Library Board in Lewisporte and it is a L2622 June 3, 1986 Vol XL letter to Mr. Matthews, the Ministe~ of Culture, Recreation and Youth. It says: "At our last library board meeting a letter was read from M~.

Fenwick soliciting our help in trying to persuade the government to find some way to finish Mr. Smallwood's Newfoundland encyclopedia. · Our librarian advises that Volumes I and II are sufficiently used to warrant our support in any effort to find a way to have the remaining volumes completed. In view of this our board agreed unanimously to support Mr. Fenwick's request since there appears to be a need for this type of work. "We are fully aware of the scarcity of .funds and have to agree with the government's policy of restraint when looking at its priorities.

However, we have- to wonder if there is not some way this project could be financed for completion and the monies spent recovered in some way through later sales. Mr. Smallwood must have seen some way of making some profit from this p~oject or at least covering expenses. "We trust that you will give this matter your attention and, with your colleagues, give it due consideration. Probably an authorized survey will help in determining whether the project is worthwhile ...

I ask the members opposite, the government, specifically, if they would talk to individuals who are involved in education and in the public libraries of this P~ovince to ask them about the pa~ticular volumes themselves. There has been a bit of confusion, Mr. Speaker, in the last little while that what we are ~efe~ring to here is a continuation of The Books of No. 45 R2622

Newfoundland and that is not the case. What we are referring to here is a new, separate work started by Mr. Smallwood in 1979 and 1980, which is of a high scholarly value, is very accurately researched, well written and has the endorsement, I might say, of most of the people who are involved in Newfoundland historical research. It is an excellent work; it deserves to be finished; it deserves to be completed; and I invite any members opposite to join in the debate itself in addition to any members on the Liberal side. Thank you very much, Hr. Speaker. MR. CALLAN: Hr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. HR. CALLAN: I am not speaking in support of that petition. I have a petition of my own to present. HR. SPEAKER: I mentioned to the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains (Hr. Warren) that I was going to recognize him after this. HR. CALLAN: Thank you, Hr. Speaker, the member for Torngat Mountains yielded. Mr. Speaker, my petition is from the town of Whitbourne and it has the same theme as the member for Henihek (Mr. Fenwick) .

It says, "We, the undersigned, petition the provincial government to put in place the necessary funding to complete The Encyclopaedia of Newfoundland and Labrador." Mr. Speaker, that is the prayer. The petition comes from L2623 June 3, 1986 Vol XL Whi tbourne. It is signed by teachers but it is odd to note, Mr. Speaker, that even though it comes from Whitbourne, which is in my district, the first inland town in all of Newfoundland to be settled - and that is one of the things we find in the encyclopedia that was started by Hr.

Smallwood but it is signed by a 10 teachers all together, one from Blaketown, one from Harbour Grace, one from Dunville, one from Shearstown, one from Roaches Line. another from Shearstown, one from Whi tbourne, one from Bay Roberts, another from Whitbourne and, of course, myself, a former teacher from Norman' s Cove. Mr. Speaker, I support this petition. On the radio this morning, by the way, I heard the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews) comment on the efforts by the leader of the NDP, the member for Menihek (Hr.

Fenwick), as well as all · others in Newfoundland, like these ten people who signed this petition, trying to reactivate this encyclopedia. The Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth was quoted as saying on the radio this morning. 'We are talking about a lot of money,' he said, but on radio, he is also quoted as saying that he feels that if enough pressure mounts, no doubt the job will be completed. MR. MATTHEWS: I said that! HR. CALLAN: That is what the minister was quoted as saying. MR. MATTHEWS: Who quoted me? MR. CALLAN: VOCM. All the minister has to do, No. 45 R2623

M+. Speaker, is contact VOCM. MR. MATTHEWS: Never even talked to them on it, boy! MR. CALLAN: Well, all I can tell the minister is what I heard on the radio. Now, if he wants to check it with VOCM, that is fine. MR. TOBIN: Are you sure it was not the CBC? MR. CALLAN: No, it was not the CBC. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to stay on the topic at hand. But, even if the minister did not say it, Mr. Speaker, - MR. MATTHEWS: No and I never. MR. CALLAN: - I think it goes without saying - MR. MATTHEWS: That I did not. MR.

CALLAN: that this project should be completed. MR. MATTHEWS: No, it should not be . MR. CALLAN: And it should not take any more pressure, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I know from first-hand experience - I was in Mr. Smallwood's caucus, the caucus L2624 June 3, 1986 Vol XL of four, - MR. MATTHEWS: I would not brag about that . MR. CALLAN: from September 16, 1975 until September 15, 1976 - MR • . TOBIN: How much (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: - which is one day short of a year, for the benefit of the member for Burin - Placentia West. I was in Mr.

Smallwood's Liberal Reform caucus from September 16, 1975 until September 15, 1976. MR. WARREN: .You never had (inaudible.) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: I spent many, many hours, Mr. Speaker, at the Premier's home on Roaches Line, which is now donated to the people of Newfoundland, and also , at 119 Portugal Cove Road, which was the office used by the former Premier for many years. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I hate to have to bawl and shout, but I have to, in order to say what I want to say over the voices of the backbenchers. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please!

The han. member has asked for No. 45 R2624

silence. I ask you to be quiet. The bon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, I know how much time was expended and money - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. CALLAN: out of the pocket of the gentleman himself because, contrary to popular opinion spread by the Tories around 1970, 1971 and 1972 that Mr. Smallwood had lined his own pockets at the expense of the taxpayers of this Province, the man went out of office, Mr. Speaker, with no money, and he laboured day and night at 119 Portugal Cove Road. Mr.

Speaker, he was on the verge of losing that office until his good friend, Geoff Stirling, came along and bought the apartment building so that Mr. Smallwood could stay on there, rent-free, I believe, in Geoff Stirling's home, which it became then, of course. He continued his work there until he became too ill to continue. It is a worthwhile project. It is something, Mr. Speaker, that our children and our grandchildren will cherish, I know, as it is placed in schools and public libraries and so on. It will be a wealth of knowledge. We have seen that, Mr. Speaker, from the volumes that have already been completed.

It would be a crime, I believe, Mr. Speaker, for the government to wait and procrastinate and perhaps decide L2625 June 3, 1986 Vol XL to do it after the man is dead and gone. I think the man would be ecstatic, would be very, very happy indeed to hear tomorrow or next week or sometime in the very near future on the public airwaves that the government of this Province, even though we do have some anti-Confederates and Joey Smallwood haters in the front and the back benches, it would be great, Mr.

Speaker, if the gentleman before he passes on into eternity and his eternal rest could hear that at least one of his projects, The Encyclopaedia of Newfoundland and Labrador, will be completed. That would a star in the crown of this government and I am sure, Mr. Speaker, a star in the crown of the former Premier and the only living father of confederation, J.R. Smallwood. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to take a minute to support the prayer of that particular petition.

I noted as the member for Bellevue was speaking and pointing out the importance and the historic importance, particularly, of this particular work by former Premier Smallwood, that a number of the low life on the backbenches across the way shouted that Billy Browne certainly did not get any public funding for his particular book. No. 45 R2625

What has to be pointed out here, Mr. Speaker, clearly for the record, in fairness, is that Billy Browne's memoirs were the private memoirs of a public man, just as Joey Smallwood's book, I Chose Canada, was the private memoirs of a public man. Had Billy Browne or any other politician from any other party historically engaged in the compilation of information pertaining to the history and the culture of this great Province, going back hundreds of years, we, in the Liberal Party, regardless of stripe, Mr.

Speaker, regardless of politics, rising above the partisan debate that is so often heated here, we would have risen above that and said, "Billy Browne, you are doing an encyclopedia on behalf of Newfoundland and Labrador for our children and our children's children. We in the Liberal Party, Billy Browne, support that 100 per cent." Had Mr.

Fenwick or anybody else - well, we cannot really say the mainland socialists - but had the Leader of the NDP Party been a Newfoundlander, true born and bred here, we would have certainly supported that too, had he been a true blue, born and bred Newfoundland. r,;e know he is blue. Peter is really a Tory. That is common knowledge. Mr. Speaker, what we are really saying is that we should rise above it. Billy Browne's memoirs were his private memoirs of a public figure. I Chose Canada was the private memoirs of a public figure. But what we are talking about here is historical preservation.

Perhaps we will never get another chance to do it like this and we beg the Opposition to rise above their Neanderthal, dinosaur way of L2626 June 3, 1986 Vol XL thinking - AN HON. MEMBER: The government. MR. FUREY: The governrnen t, the Opposition in three years. MR. DECKER: They are opposed to everything anyway. MR. FUREY: The Opposition mentality. - We plead with them to rise above the partisanship of this and to recognize the goodness that it will give, not only to the generations coming, but to the generations forever in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition signed - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition to present. However, I would like to have silence on both sides. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a No. 45 R2626

petition on behalf of in excess of 500 ~esidents of the North West Rive~. Happy Valley/Goose Bay area. In fact, Mr. Speaker, in looking at the signatures on the petition, I notice that one gives thei~ hometown as Af~ica. I will ~ead the petition, Mr. Speaker. "We, the unde~signed, believe that the Resource Technician School in North West Rive~ is a valuable post-seconda~y school p~og~amme that can p~ovide the youth of Labrador with useful academic and skilled training in a variety of natural resources. The present programme should not be interrupted.

We ~equest that you ask your officials to review this situation to find a means to sustain the programme for a further period until it can become well established in a proposed community college for Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I support this petition signed by in excess of 500 residents. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this programme should continue. However, we must realize, at the same time, that this p~ogramme was a pilot project by Memorial University. I think we all know, both on this side and on the othe~ side, that Memorial's budget was increased by some 14 pe~ cent this year.

It was Memorial University who decided not to continue this two year p~ogramme. However, I further understand, Mr. Speaker, in supporting this petition, that Memo~ial University has indicated that it is conducting an evaluation of the p~oject to determine whethe~ or not it fully accomplishes its goals and objectives. Mr.

Speaker, I am convinced that the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, under the L2627 June 3, 1986 Vol XL ~eorganization of the community college concept, will assure the people of North West Rive~ and the people of Happy Valley - Goose Bay that if the evaluation shows that this is a wo~thwhile project, then the minister will include it in his reorganization of the vocational college. At a meeting myself and the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) had with Mr.

Barney, Miss Blake, Katie Baikie-Pottle and Gerald Redmond on Saturday morning past, we assured them that we are concerned about this project. And above everything else, if this p~oject goes ahead I recommend to the Ministe~ of Career Development and Advanced Studies and I recommend to this government that North West River be seriously looked at as the community to unde~take the continuation of this p~oject. Mr. Speaker, ·I have no p~oblem at all in suppo~ting this petition. However, the problem is Memo~ial University has decided to stop the programme.

If they do not carry on with the evaluation, then I would suggest to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies that he take a se~ious look bringing it forward, especially to the town of North West River. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR . KEL LAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to speak in support of the petition. The House will No. 45 R2627

recall that earlier I made reference to that particular petition and the fact that the original was on its way to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power), and I asked him in the House if he would find a means by which he could present it. He has done so as he promised. He said he would find the mechanism, and he had the member for Torngat Mountains (Kr. Warren) make the actual presentation we have just heard. I thank the minister for that, because the other Labrador members who did receive copies of petitions were copies, indeed, and not acceptable, by House rules, for presentation.

There are a number of concerns: The meeting that took place in Happy Valley - Goose Bay on Saturday morning, which was attended by the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) and the member for Torngat Mountains, was also attended by myself and my colleague, the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Tulk), at the request of the Resource Technician Programme Committee. In my opinion, there was not actually a whole lot said at that time by the government representatives.

In fact, not quite as much, other than the fact that they generally supported the idea, as the minister himself, the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, had actually said when he was questioned on a point of order here in the House. I think he was a little more specific than the government members were at that particular meeting.

Perhaps they were not aware of what actually had been said that particular Thursday and the Hansard account of it, in which the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies indicated that the best L2628 June 3, 1986 Vol XL possibility seemed to be the Fall of 1987 as opposed to the Fall of 1986, and that his aim was to keep it in North West River, not just in Labrador. I think that was the prime concern of the Committee as they were given the original mandate by the community.

I do not particularly like the tendency, and it has been done a number of times when questions were raised, to lay the entire blame on Memorial University. Now, I know what the minister and various other government members would say to that but, in actual fact, when the provincial government increased the funding to Memorial University by some $8 million, as the major funding agency for the University, the minister and the government is in a position, despite anything else they might say, to give some direction to Memorial University.

In my opinion, if the minister wished to see the programme continued, he could tell Memorial University in fairly strong terms that he suggests that it is continued. Perhaps there may be other programmes, particularly in post-secondary considerations, that may not be quite as successful as this one has the potential of being with respect employment after graduation. The member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) indicates that it was a pilot project by Memorial University. Well, that is not totally correct. It is a pilot project, we accept that, but that is not an excuse for discontinuing it.

It was not a pilot project of Memorial University, I am sure the member knows and it was just an inadvertent comment, but rather of the federal government mainly, with some input to a lesser degree by Memorial University who actually administered the No. 45 R2628

programme. If the new plan for the community college comes into being, it will mean that instead of Memorial University administering the programme it will be done through the minister's area of responsibility. ' The feeling within Labrador is that finally here is . an opportunity to get local people - when I say local, I mean young Labrador people - into resource management where they can not only work in their own region, which would be ideal, but could work, conceivably, anywhere in the country.

It gave an opportunity to young Labrador people who had no hope, really, in a lot of the post-secondary considerations for employment to have something meaningful to do, a two year ­ course which started, I believe, at something like thirty-two students originally and may graduate eighteen or nineteen in another week or so . Here was a chance for them, it held out some hope, but it also had, to a certain degree, some economic significance for the town of North West River and, of course, the Lake Melville area generally. We have a building now that is about to go up for grabs.

There is a proposal in, I understand, to government whereby a nominal fee may acquire this building for a corporation which will use it to increase the corporation's assets and rent it out for office space. Now, they have said they would rent it to the Resource Technician Training Programme if the need was there, but there is a feeling within the committee, as the member for Torngat Mountains will confirm, that once they lose that building it may be a very serious thing, it may force the programme out of North West River because L2629 June 3, 1986 Vol XL there is no place to have it if it is ever reinstated.

They have a great fear, and the approach now and the approach that was suggested at that committee meeting in Happy Valley - Goose Bay last Saturday morning was "Let us go to CEIC with a view to having them retain that building." It would be better to mothball the building, in some people's views, than to have it disposed of for a nominal fee . of perhaps $1 so that another corporation will have ownership and control and use it to increase their own assets, and maybe to the detriment of the whole programme.

Here again I will say that here is one post-secondary programme that has the potential of creating 100 per cent employment for its graduates. Mr.

Speaker, although I appreciate the effort the minister has indicated he has been taking with finding funding, I think it is shameful that we would allow that programme to disappear now; not only will you lose interest amongst the potential student body, but the instructor staff that was involved with developing the pilot project will be lost if there is a one year gap between the end of the programme as we know it now and the starting up at the earliest possible date, as the minister suggests, 1987.

Once you lose the people who helped develop the programme you are not only destroying certain aspects of the whole programme itself but you are losing the expertise that was used to bring the programme to what it is today. I gather my time is up, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 45 R2629

Your time is up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond for just a few moments to the petition so ably presented by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), and also for the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) who supported the petition. Certainly, the Resource Technician Programme was begun as a pilot project.

Sometimes the public assume that simply because we are government, or because we, individually, are government ministers arid are charged with the responsibility for delivering, in my case, post-secondary education, that then, somehow or other, because we have that responsibility and we supply most of the funding, we also have all the power to deliver in the way that we choose so to do. Unfortunately, in government that is not the way things are done in many cases.

If you lived in a totally Communistic state, where every agency is an agency of government and where every employee is an employee of government, then, I assume, that the persons who head departments are in absolute control of how and when and in what method they deliver any kind of programme. In our case, we do not do that in Newfoundland or in Canada. We deliver post-secondary education to a wide variety of mechanisms. L2630 June 3, 1986 Vol XL One mechanism is the university. Although the member for Naskaupi (Mr.

Kelland) says that if we wanted to, in our budgetary process, we could really subtly put in the knife and say, 'Yes, University, you will . get this amount of money but here is a programme or a list of programmes that we want you to keep and a list of other programmes that we do not really have high priority as a government for, I think we would really step across a line which no government in Canada, to my knowledge, has been willing to step across, that is to give universities direction, any university in any part of Canada or maybe even North America, from a government by saying, 'We want this programme funded', possibly at the expense of something else.

Honest to God, knowing the University fairly well and knowing the administration fairly well, on the one hand I do not think this administration would choose to do that. Also, knowing the integrity of Dr. Harris and his people in the administration of the University and the autonomous position in which they see the University~ if we were subtly to say that, they would say, 'Thank you very much. You can cut our budget any way you wish, but the money you give us, we will decide the priorities'.

Now, I really have faith enough in them to think that they would stand up either to this administration or any other administration that would try and get into the delivery of university type programmes. I guess the real truth here, Mr. Speaker, is that the University has been resoundly criticized by myself and by others for not continuing this very successful pilot project that they began in No. 45 R2630

Labrador. I guess the reality is that the University deserves credit for developing the programme. In reality, it is not really a university programme, it is more vocational school career orientated. It would be more suitable in the revise~ college vocational school system, which we will have in place by September of 1987, I hope. We are actively working on that, as I mentioned when I think the member for Naskaupi and I were breaking the rules one day and, after Question Period, we had a question and answer session. I did indicate that we are actively looking at ways to fund the programme.

I, for one, cannot as a minister recommend to government that we add additional money to the University to do a government priority, which is what the University has more or less suggested to us: 'Give us an extra $120,000 or $160,000, then we will do this programme' . I find that once we start doing that, then you give the University a budget for pet government projects which, I think, causes a lot of problems down the road. We are actively looking at some kind of a solution for the Fall. I am glad the member for Naskaupi and the member for Torngat (Mr. Warren) brought up the idea of the buildings, themselves.

I visited the resource technician programme in Labrador. They did have some complaints about the buildings. It certainly was not a perfect site. There is, I know, the concern that if you remove those buildings then it gives added incentive not to bring back the course at all. I could see it possibly being done at the vocational school in Happy Valley but, at the same time, I think it L2631 June 3, 1986 Vol XL is an economic stimulus in North West River and, certainly from this government's point of view, it is where we would like to leave it.

I will be glad to have a look at the idea of putting the buildings in mothballs, trying to assist in some way to keep the buildings there so that in September ~f 1987, when the programme is very likely reinstituted under the the College of Labrador or some variation of such, we will really be able to do a programme in North West River for the good of the young people of Labrador.

I also say that it is not necessarily a totally bad idea that we had this one year, from the time the development project, pilot project, was done, , two years in the teaching sense and one year in a practical sense, to see exactly how those students are received by the entrepreneurs in the community, if they become entrepreneurs themselves, and to see their success ratio in getting jobs and possibly any shortcomings in their learning that employers might wish them to have had.

If it is not reconstituted in September of 1986, then certainly when it is brought back in 1987, it might be even brought back in a better form in, hopefully, North West River, where I think it should stay. MR. I<. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. the member for Stephenville. MR. I<. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to present a petition concerning the closing of the MUN No. 45 R2631

Extension office in Stephenville. The petition was presented to me by a member of the Joint Unions of Stephenville that was just recently formed and represents people from all the unions of the area, plus just general people from the Stephenville, Bay St. George, Port au Port and surrounding areas. I am very pleased here today to present a petition. I would like to read the prayer of the petition. lt is very lengthy but it gives good detail as to some of the work that has been done by the MUN Extension office in Stephenville.

"We, the undersigned, object to the closing the Memorial University office in Stephenville. The outreach of the university is essential in the development of rural Newfoundland's human and natural resources. Education takes place not only in the classroom but in the community, on the wharf, in ' the community hall, in the farmer's fields or out in the fishermen's boat. To many rural Newfoundlanders, adult education and community development of this type is most important to their survival and development.

"•fle believe without C"oots in ruC"al Newfoundland the university's education will quickly become iC"relevant. Specifically, consideC"ing the Bay St. GeoC"ge aC"ea is economically depC"essed and its C"esources underdeveloped, we feel that the closing of the office in Stephenville will certainly be a regressive move foC" this area. The services outlined below that the office would provide would certainly be downgraded or nonexistent. "The many services offered include the coordination of both formal L2632 June 3, 1986 Vol XL and informal learning pC"ogrammes available through MUN.

The t"esearch and resource center provided information on economic and social development. There is also assessments and pC"oblem solving assistance to committees we do not have access to such information. It also councils young people and adults on the educational alternatives and set"vices available through the university. It has also provided leadership training to strengthen groups and community leaders so that they can tackle the problems with competence and vision.

"The MUN office in Stephenville has certainly been equal to the task and, in many instances, reached beyond what would be reasonably expected in its contributions to this area. The office here has provided a link with outside expertise to help in the development of the area and it has been paramount in securing approximately $250,000 through grants for conferences, seminars, thus pC"oviding jobs, stimulating economic growth and creating awareness of this area.

It has also brought together major development and educational institutions to work cooperatively on issues related to fisheries, agriculture, tourism, forestC"y, native affairs, women and youth. It has also shown people in the area that the university cares about their educational needs. The field worker's community development activities demonstrate the universities commitment to the economic and social development of the region. "We, therefore, call upon the university and the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies to immediately look and reassess the situation; that the No. 45 R2632

MUN office at Stephenville be kept open; and the same standard of excellence be kept at the rate it has been." Now, I am well aware that the minister cannot tell the university what to do and what they cannot do - and that is fine too - but the administration funds the university. So, the university's capabilities of delivering programmes is totally effected by the funding that they receive. While I have some problem with the university's priorities at this present time, especially relating to MUN Extension, they are in a very desperate and dire straits when it comes to their finances.

They are going to be in even further dire straits in the next year to two years. While we are aware of the contribution that the administration made this year the extra $9 million to $10 million or $8 million - it is not enough to even keep the level of service that they have had. At the recent convocation, the University President stated that they are at the very, very limits of their resources now. They are losing staff and they are losing resources that are required to maintain a standard of excellence. The education of our young people is starting to suffer. So, the university is in dire straits.

A direct result of that is the MUN Extension offices being closed in Marystown and in Stephenville and, I think in the next couple of years, you may see the other offices go also if the finances of the university do not improve. That will only happen through the administration's efforts here. L2633 June 3, 1986 Vol XL I want to say that Mr. Niel Tilley in Stephenville, through his office, has done a tremendous amount of work. As a matter of fact, I attended a conference on 1i teracy with the Adult Education Society for Newfoundland and Labrador over there this past weekend.

It was quite good, they talked about a number of problems that exist in this Province. Mr. Tilley was elected president of that association. It just shows the respect that he has and so on. I think that is evident all over the Island. Many people have respect for the people in this MUN Extension network that is around the Island. I want to fully support this petition by the people of the entire area that want to see this office committed to Stephenville, Bay St. George, Port au Port and the Southwest Coast and that want it to stay there for the future because it has done a great job.

It needs to stay there and help develop the West Coast. I urge the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) to talk to the President of the University to try to get him to change his mind and to make it a priority. I thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to rise in my place today to support the prayer of the petition so ably presented by the member for Stephenville. I hope, Hr. Speaker, when I am No. 45 R2633

.! through, that the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) will stand in his place as the elected official and member who represents that great piece of geography known as Bay St. George, of which he is a part. Hopefully he will stand in his place as well and support the pi"ayer of this petition, the jobs that we aC'e ti"ying to pC'otect, .and the way of life. MC'.

Speaker, it is becoming more and more evident that there seems to be just one thing on the Tory mind in the last number of years and that is a singular focused onslaught and attack on dismantling everything that LibeC'als ever built in this Province, and the extension of Memorial out to rural Newfoundland, bringing education to the outports, was one of the great achievements of that past administration. What do -we see today? We see the dismantling, the tearing down, the de~troying of that great and useful programme for Newfoundlanders in rural Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, last week or I believe the week before the member for Port au Port in this very House of Assembly called out across the House to the member of Stephenville and said, 'Tell me what MUN Extension does in Bay St. George?' Obviously implied in that very rhetoC'ical question was that the member for Port au Port had no idea, even though he lived in Port au Port for ten or fifteen years, was involved personally in education himself for ten years before quitting or being tossed out or whatever happened to him in the high school that he used to work for .

He had no idea what MUN Extension was all about and, what it did. He had to ask the member for Stephenville. Not only that, L2634 June 3, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, he said • if you are that interested in MUN Extension, why do you not go and meet with Memorial's President? Have you met with Memorial's President?' To which the member for Stephenville said, •yes, I had a three hour meeting with him. It was very pC'oductive . He was very co-operative.

I learned a lot about MUN Extension.• Then we asked the member for PoC't au Port 'did you, as a government backbencher concerned about Memorial's extended education into rural Newfoundland, did you meet with the President of the University?' Speaker? He slithered in no. What did he say, Mr. shrunk, he slunk, he his chair, and he Now is that not a whispered tei"rible standard the lips Port. paradox, ever gushing of the member a double forth from for Port au Let me lecture him today, Mr. Speaker, on what it is MUN Extension does. It provides a co-ordinator for formal and informal learning programmes.

It provides research resource centres providing information on economic and social development to groups who could not have access to it, who cannot access the infrastructure of Memorial either at Corner Brook or St. John's. So it bi"ings a host of information, it spC'eads the tentacles of higheC' learning out into ruC'al Newfoundland and you want to chop them off one at a time, dismantle that great Liberal pi"ogramme that gives people in rui"al Newfoundland the opportunity, indeed, Mr. Speaker, the right to learn. The Tories want to dismantle it, destroy it, take it apart C'ather than build, Mr. Speaker.

In rural Newfoundland there are children to and they would like to No. 45 R2634

access those programmes, access those facilities, access that knowledge, access those professors. They want to have education accessible and this is one of the pillars, one of the posts of liberalism. Surely in that heart, even though the carcass you carry around is Tory, in that carcass there beats a liberal heart. We know it on this side and you know it on that side. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure now, I feel confident that the member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder), le depute of Port au Port, will stand now in his place and support fully, unequivocally, the retention, the keeping of this great institution that has helped so many people in rural Newfoundland become better and greater Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, it is kind of interesting sitting here and being the target for the member for St. Barbe's (Mr. Fury) oratorical skills, but he is all wrong. My understanding is that this government gave a 14 per cent increase to the university.

I understand that Acadia received 4 per cent, Mount St. Vincent, the University of New Brunswick got a 4 per cent increase and some of the universities on the mainland, L2635 June 3, 1986 Vol XL in Atlantic Canada, in the same type of economic climate that we are in, some of them did not get any increases at all. We gave 14 per cent. I listened to the member for st. Barbe waxing eloquent about the close down and how the government of this Province has decided that we are against education. We are encouraging people to be illerate. We are cutting off funding. We have to sit here and listen to that but, Mr.

Speaker, he is totally wrong. The only response that can be given from here is that certainly, I support the prayer of the petition, that the people of Bay St. George would like to have that university Extension Service as it always has been. I am sure the people of the Burin Peninsula wouild like that service as well. Mr. Speaker, I stand behind the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) and the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn). All of those people on this side have been doing their job. They did what they could and they did it in the most practical way possible.

A 14 per cent increase in funds went to the university this year and that is putting your money where your mouth is. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I understand when you stand in this House to speak to a petition you are suppose to say you support it or you do not support it. I No. 45 R2635

wonder if the hon. gentleman could tell this House whether in fact he does support the petition or whether he is going to hide behind the coattails of the two ministers who are closing it down? MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. MR. HODDER: It is just a silly comment. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, may I speak to that petition? MR. FLIGHT: No, no! MR. TULK: There are three already. MR. TOBIN: Hay I have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sit down, sit down! No leave, no leave! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Orders of the Day Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act," carried. (Bill No. 44) On motion, Bill No. 44 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, Consumer the hon. the Minister of Affairs and Communications to introduce a bill, "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Insurance Adjustors, Agents And Brokers, •• carried. L2636 June 3, 1986 Vol XL (Bill No. 45) On motion, Bill No. 45 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Order 14, Bill No. 1.

The debate wa~ adjourned by the member for Bellevue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: He has spoken for ten minutes. The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. Hr. Speaker, when I was speaking yesterday at six o'clock I was referring .to earlier statements made by the member for St. John's North (Mr. ~- Carter). MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) is finished with politics and he is not running for Barry. MR. CALLAN: The point that I was making, Hr. Speaker, if the member for Burin - Placentia West will be quiet - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

CALLAN: - is that there is an old saying, he who does not make mistakes, seldom does anything. MR. TOBIN: You do not make any. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 45 R2636

MR. CALLAN: Of course we can have that in the feminine as well as the masculine, Mr. Speaker, she or he. Mr. Speaker, this government in fifteen years has spent most of these fifteen years not doing anything. And we have the member for St. John's North an.d the member for St. John's South (Dr. Collins) to epitomize what I mean by that statement because they have spent the last fifteen years, . Mr. Speaker, not doing anything and, therefore, they have not made the sorts of mistakes that they have accused the former Premier, J.R. Smallwood, of making.

At least that man made mistakes and he admits it and the reason, Mr. Speaker, is because he tried to do things. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: We cannot allow the Hansard of the proceedings of this House to stand and record that the member for Bellevue said that two of the members over here did nothing for fifteen years. This is a shocking statement. It must not be allowed to stand. MR. FUREY: You must feel some ashamed to get up on a point of order. MR. J.

CARTER: It is absolutely quite clear that the affairs of this Province were left in such a mess by the former Liberal administration that it took all our efforts to try and clean it up, and to suggest that we have been sitting on our hands and, by implication, not only the L2637 June 3, 1986 Vol XL two of us, but others besides, is wrong and should not be allowed to stand. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I think I would have to agree with the han. the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter), and I am sure my friend must have made a little slip of the tongue. The member for St. John's North has done something: He has played the role of obstructionist, as he is doing now and as he did, of course, with the Committee on Privileges and Elections. To say that he has done nothing, he has never had a chance to do anything. As a matter of fact, he got put into the Cabinet by the former Premier, Mr. Moores, and after he suggested that we finance Education with a lottery, the former Premier promptly kicked him out, as he should have done. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, I have heard enough on it to rule there is no point of order. It is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the bon. the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, very briefly, the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) was speaking about people making No. 45 R2637

mistakes and not making mistakes, and he accused the member for St. John's South (Dr. Collins) of being in this government for fifteen years. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to Your Honour that the member for St. John's South is not in the government for fifteen years and you are the one who has made the mistake. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have already ruled on · that point of order and I think the hon. member knew that. The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, if I may be allowed to continue. Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) is using the same tactic today that he used yesterday. Just before six o'clock yesterday, the member for St. John's North interrupted me on what were proposed to be points of order but which were not, on three occasions, possibly four. He is doing the same thing today, Mr. Speaker. The point that · I am making is the Atlantic Accord, the legislation we are on, Mr. Speaker, is , as I said, an example of what I am talking about. The Atlantic Accord is flawed, Mr. Speaker. The member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey), before he took his seat yesterday, enunciated at least twelve flaws in the Atlantic Accord.

Of course, the one that I am particularly interested in, and the one I was commenting on yesterday, was the fact that there is no provision in the Atlantic Accord for refining in this Province. I, Mr. Speaker, representing the district of Bellevue and representing the L2638 June 3, 1986 Vol XL people in the general Come By Chance area, am very concerned about that. Whatever chance the refinery at Corne By Chance had to be reactivated, at least here was one chance. If this government, instead of leaving out refining for this Province in the Atlantic Accord, had insisted that it go in there then, of course, Mr.

Speaker, if not the present refinery at Come By Chance, at least another refinery, possible another, or the same one, for that matter, but at least another one - and where would it have gone? - obviously, Come By Chance, because that was why that refinery was put there in the first place, and that is why Mobil, Mr. Speaker, has chosen Come By Chance as the area relating to the fabrication of the concrete platform.

Of course, in regard to the assembling process that will take place at the Bread and Cheese Islands, which is just_ off the coast of Come By Chance, up in the bottom of Placentia Bay, the deep water site where fabrication will take place from materials that will be brought in from Marystown on the one hand, from Argentia and from Come By Chance or Adams Head, of course, we have the golden triangle as it pertains to concrete platform fabrication. So, Mr. Speaker, that is where the Atlantic Accord is flawed, a dozen times, but once right there more especially.

We have no refining to be done in this Province, so says the Atlantic Accord. The member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) , I think I made a mistake earlier when I said St. John's South, that is the Finance Minister I believe. So it is St. John's East that I was referring to, Mr. Speaker. But the member No. 45 R2638

for St. John's East knew that I was talking about him when I lumped him in with St. John's North. Mr. Speaker, earlier in the afternoon, when petitions were being presented I was standing in the doorway with a cup of coffee, and the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) was asleep. That is not unlikely. MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): A point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: That is an unjustified accusation, Mr. Speaker.

My -eyes were certainly closed because I could not bear to look at the person who was speaking because it was so boring and such an offence to this House to have such foolishness brought forward. MR. FUREY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Further to that point of order, the hon. the member for st. Barbe. MR. FUREY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), and the St. John's North (Mr. is absolutely right. is wrong member for J. Carter) He was not asleep, he was, as per usual, in a temporary coma. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order.

The bon. the member for Bellevue. L2639 June 3, 1986 Vol XL MR. CALLAN: ·Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's North was having a nap but I do not have to say it here for anybody to believe it. You see a lot of people across this Province, Mr.

Speaker, they do not realize that when Rick Seaward or somebody from CBC or NTV or wherever talk about a debate that ensued in the Legislature on a certain day in 1986, it might be in June, the people in the Province are not aware that the cameras are not allowed in the Legislature every day and they are only allowed in here during the Speech from the Throne. What we have seen, and I have seen it at least a dozen times in the last two months, whenever they show a picture of the Premier referring to a debate that took place, they show this old film and the same old film comes on, Mr.

Speaker, with the Premier waving · his arms, and the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) sitting back, more or less interested in what the Premier is saying, and the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) is in the backbenches sound asleep. I have seen it a dozen times. It has gone across this Province a dozen times. So the member for St. John's North can do what he wants to. It is there in living colour. MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: If I had to have a tooth drilled without an anesthetic I would cherish a recording of the bon. gentleman opposite because I am No. 45 R2639

sure it would put me into a coma. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Kr. Speaker, thank you. It is a point of interruption as usual. Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's North epitomizes something else, he epitomizes this government, Mr. Speaker. At least the other members, the member for St. John's East and the other members who are here, at least they give a pretence of being awake, but this gentleman, he epitomizes what the government is really all about, it is a sleeping elephant, Mr. Speaker.

This government has done nothing in fifteen years and the Atlantic ·Accord, and at least the twelve flaws that were brought to our attention yesterday by the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) are, of course, living proof that the Atlantic Accord, that we have waited five years for, Mr. Speaker, we waited five years for it and when did we get it, right on the heels of a depression in the price ·of oil around the world and, of course, Mr. Speaker, the member for St.

John's East, who was the negotiator for the provincial government, along with Mobil and Pat Carney federally, he is in a very, very tenable position, Mr. Speaker.

He will not admit it but he is in a very, very difficult position because now, with the price of a barrel of oil hovering around fifteen dollars, he has this fight on his hands to try and convince Mobil to go ahead with the fabrication of concrete platforms and all, of L2640 June 3, 1986 Vol XL course, that goes with it, leading up to 1991 or 1992 · when, hopefully, we can start bringing some of our natural resource to the shores of the Atlantic Provinces, P.E.I. and the other provinces, ·not here have no call on oil; refining. because we we have no I say it once more, Mr.

Speaker, I reiterate what I said yesterday afternoon when the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) was saying that a refinery is no good in this Province because we have to find markets. MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: I have been accused of interrupting the han. gentleman and that is true I have interrupted him and I will continue to interrupt him because he is trying to put words in my mouth, either that or to misinterpret what I was trying to say.

I said, and I will say it again, that there is no necessary connection between the production of oil at Hibernia and a refinery anywhere in Newfoundland. For the Liberals to suggest, for the Opposition to suggest in this debate that the only way to make Hibernia really pay is to funnel all that oil through a local refinery here in Newfoundland, the bulk of it, not all of it necessarily but certainly the bulk of it, is, I think, wrong and wrongheaded. It is a bad policy. It is a policy that cannot work. A refinery at Come anywhere else in No. 45 By Chance or Newfoundland R2640

might possibly get off the ground but it would have to get off the ground on its own merits. But there is no necessary connection between Hibernia and an oil refinery. This is what I said and I will say it again and that is all I said ~nd nothing else. I will not have my words twisted. MR. CALLAN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, yesterday afternoon before six, I acknowledged that the member for St. John's North was correct. There is no connection. But he is wrong there, Mr. Speaker, in his assertion he is wrong.

I am not saying what he said is wrong. What I am saying is his assertion is wrong, that there can be a connection between a refinery in this Province and the crude oil off our coast. Mr. Speaker, I will explain it further as I get a chance to debate this. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion between two han. members. The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You see, Mr. Speaker, what I said yesterday - and the member for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) is listening and I am glad that he is listening and I reiterate it now, that what we can have as part of an agreement with Mobil and with the feds is we can have an operating refinery. I am not suggesting L2641 June 3, 1986 Vol XL that every barrel of crude that is pumped out of Hiberriia come to this Province. Let the other provinces have their share of course. But we can have an operating refinery here with crude provided at cost, if necessary. The member for St.

John's North said yesterday, and I agree with him, that the problem with the refinery at Come By Chance and the John Shaheen deal was that Mr. Shaheen had to bring his oil across the oceans at tremendous cost and he could not make a profit on it. MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for St. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: I said yesterday that the officials at the refining company at Come By Chance said that their operation could not pay because they had to pay so much for the oil but it turned out they did not pay anything for the oil because they went bankrupt owing about $500 million. Most of the money they owed was for oil that they had not bothered to pay for. Now, on the other matter, Hibernia oil cannot and probably should not be sold to anyone. You cannot have a two-priced policy. It will sell for market price and certainly not less. The whole thing is foolishness. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CAL .LAN: No. 45 R2641

Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's North had an opportunity yesterday to make a thirty-minute speech and I think he went on for five minutes or something. He did not say very much. But anyway, to be kind to the gentleman, Mr. Speaker, to be kind to the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), I must tell him he is not the only person in this Legislature who spends half his time asleep because the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) is also in a stupor at the moment. MR. J. CARTER: We are bored to death. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, they are bored to death on many occasions because it is not uncommon to see these two han. gentlemen asleep and today is not the first time when I was speaking. It has happened on occasions when the Premier has been speaking and · sometimes speaking eloquently. Now, Mr. Speaker, to get back to it, the member for St. John's East, as I said, is listening, and there can be a provision, it can be worked out even yet, even though, it is missing from the Atlantic Accord, it can still be worked out whereby a refinery in this Province can get some of the crude, even at cost. It can be put to Mobil.

Yes, we can make a deal. You are going to get some profits as the price of oil increases and rises you will get more and more pC"ofits, as we will. But here is what this Province wants done. We want a refinery in this Province, Mr . Speaker, because it wi 11 create 500 or 600 jobs, and they will not be boom/bust jobs like the ones at Adam's Head and at L2642 June 3, 1986 Vol XL Argentia and Marystown related to concrete platform fabrication. That is boom and bust. In four or five years, Mr. Speaker, these gentlemen will have work but then it is over, because . even now we are told and it is not suprising, Mr.

Speaker, it has been suggested that the only concrete platform that will be used in the offshore oil is the one that Mobil has already consented to, even though, the Premier, Mr. Speaker, over the last several years has been talking about concrete platforms plural. We must have concrete platforms, plural, rather than floating platforms. But the Premier, Mr. Speaker, is backed into a corner, and there will be one concrete platform, I believe, I sincerely believe that. MR. MARSHALL: You are sad about that, are you? MR. CALLAN: No, I am not sad about it.

I am very happy because a part of it is going to be related to my distl"ict, and the people in that area who have been suffering from unemployment - MR. MARSHALL: They would like to hear what you are saying about it. MR. CALLAN: They wi 11 know, Mr . Speaker. So an operating refinery, Mr. Speaker, will not be a boom and bust, it will be there as long as Hibernia is there or Ben Nevis or the other finds. MR. J. CARTER: It has nothing (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: No. 45 to do with R2642

Yes, it has. M~. Speaker, the member for St. John's North, I do not know why he gets ~e-elected time after time, afte~ time, I mean the people in st. John's North cannot be so dense. I mean, we saw earlier in the afternoon the member was, you know, here is St. John's North, the only district in all of St. John's, Hr. Speake~. that does not have a representative in the Cabinet. Why? We have rep~esentatives from Conception Bay and from Ha~bour Main, outside, but do we have a representative from St. John • s North? No. We did once for fou~ or five months, as one of my colleagues earlie~ mentioned.

This man is an obst~ctionists. He has been obst~cting me all afternoon, as I tried to make some points on the Atlantic Accord. MR. BAIRD: Go eat you~ hay, boy! Go eat your hay. MR. CALLAN: And when he is not obstructing, H~. Speake~. he is sleeping. I wonder why the people from St. John's North keep electing him. H~. Speaker, I said just now he was the epitome of this sleeping government which just goes on managing things day after day, the civil servants do most of that anyway. It wi 11 be done if the government neve~ existed.

The civil servants who do just as good a job at managing everything · in this Province, the provincial debt, the Department of Transpo~tation, and all of the othe~ depa~tments, they would do just as well if we did not have the twenty or so Cabinet ministers and then the half a dozen o~ so pa~liamentary sec~eta~ies, ove~aid secreta~ies, who are earning more for doing one quarter of the work of my secretary and L2643 June 3, 1986 Vol XL some other designated sec~etaries. MR. BAIRD: Somebody has to do you~ work. MR. CALLAN: M~.

Speaker, I must be hitting a so~e point because they must feel guilty about the money that they are getting. I am sure the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Ca~te~) must feel guilty about the money that he is getting compliments of the taxpayers. He does nothing fa~ St. John's North. He has admitted that. He does not get two phone calls a year from his constituents and the city council is looking after his district anyway. Of course, he is not in the Cabinet and he is a millionaire in his own right, that is common knowledge, he is a millionai~e in his own right. I wonder why the people of St.

John's No~th keep sending him back he~e? It is beyond my comprehension, Mr. Speaker. Pe~haps in the next election all that will change, perhaps the people in St. John's No~th, as they will in St. John's East and South and other parts of this Province, will finally, after seventeen or eighteen years, depending on when the election is called, it is fifteen now, if we go a couple of mo~e, in seventeen yea~s. in two more yea~s time, they will say that after seventeen years of Toryism, it is time for a change. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member's time is up. MR. CALLAN: I thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

TOBIN: No. 45 R2643

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I am just going to spend a few minutes on the Atlantic Accord. Number one, I feel obligated to speak to it, Mr. Speaker, because of the positive effect that it is going to have on my own district of Burin Placentia West. I am somewhat disturbed, Mr. Speaker, by the negative attitude taken by the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). If the constituents he has in Come By Chance and that whole area were aware of the negative attitude he has taken here today towards the development of Adams Head - MR.

PATTERSON: I will tell them all about it. MR. TOBIN: This government, Mr. Speaker, has been working very hard during the past couple of years. When, Mr. Speaker, we were coming into this House and the Opposition was saying, 'Forget about the concrete platform. It will never happened, it will never materialize. There will be a floating platform and that is it.' Yet, Mr. Speaker, the Premier of this Province, together with his Cabinet, particularly the Minister responsible for the Petroleum Directorate (Mr. Marshall), were successful in having put in place a concrete platform. Mr.

Speaker, one of the areas announced for development happened to be the Adam's Head area in Come By Chance. To see the attitudes displayed in this bon. House by the member for Bellevue, the L2644 June 3, 1986 Vol XL negative attitude, Mr. Speaker, towards his constituents and his district is indeed indicative of the mentality of the Liberal Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I guess that is not totally surprising when you look at the fact that their leader today is a man who was responsible for the energy in this Province, a man who was responsible for the offshore and, Mr.

Speaker, he scurried across the House, left the party that stood for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and scurried across the floor and joined the party that lived on negativism, a party, Mr. Speaker, who at the time had a federal Liberal Government in Ottawa who would not give Newfoundlanders the time of day, that is where the Leader of the Opposition went. Mr. Speaker, also one shall not forget ·and the record should know that it was the Liberals in this Province, as well as the present leader, who wanted Newfoundlanders to accept the Nova Scotian type agreement. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if there is any disappointment in this Province, I can assure you that it dwells in the political hearts of the gentlemen opposite. The fact of the matter is there is a good Atlantic Accord in place, one that the federal Liberal government would not give to Newfoundlanders. The record will show that the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) stood in this House and supported the federal Liberals when they would not give Newfoundlanders the right to any revenue sharing in this Province. The record will show that the member for Fogo was one of the people that stood in this House and did not want No. 45 R2644

Newfoundlanders to have any say in offshore development. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, there were people in this House prior to 1982 that thought they were the experts on the offshore. They went out to their districts with healthy majorities prior to 1982, in the 1979 election, and did the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) ever learn a lesson as it related to the Liberal stand on the offshore. Did the member for Windsor-Buchans ever learn a lesson as it relates to the stand that his party took on the offshore when they did not want to give Newfoundlanders a say in the revenue sharing of the offshore. MR.

FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member wants to indicate to the House the kind of le 'sson my constituents learned over the next three years? MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: We have found out the lesson they are learning in the past year. Is the message in Windsor-Buchans coming in loud and clear! The member for Fogo, who is the Opposition House Leader, almost lost his position a couple of months ago.

We all know about that dissension within the caucus, L2645 June 3, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, that is loud and clear. The member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) went to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) and said, 'a year ago you promised us you were going to change every position. • Maybe, the bon. gentleman will tell us. I do not know the answer. Mr. Speaker, maybe the hon. gentleman will tell us if he is giving anybody part of his salary as House Leader. MR. TULK: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, I am going to tell the hon. gentleman about what goes on in our caucus when he agrees to sit down with me and we analyse that poll that ABP had done which shows how bad they are over there. I will tell him everything then. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order there is no point of order. The han. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is, as I said, I do not know, but probably the member can tell us whether or not he is paying part of his House Leader's salary to one of his colleagues because he insisted on having his job. I know that the member for St.

Barbe lost his salary. He was pushed aside and it was scooped up by some one else. We know, Mr. Speaker, what is happening. As it relates to the Atlantic . No. 45 R2645

Accord, if the people in the Come By Chance area, in the Trinity Bay area, could only sit in this House for the past half hour and listen to their MHA and the negative attitude that he portrayed on behalf of his constitutients, the negative attitude, Mr. Speaker, that he tried to get across as it related to the hopes and objectives of the offshore! Now, the facts are clear. The Liberal Party in this Province are over there, Mr. Speaker, with their fingers and their toes crossed, Mr. Speaker, hoping that there will not be a concrete platform. Mr.

Speaker, they are actually on their knees praying that the offshore will not go ahead . Oh, Mr. Speaker , do you think they will be disappointed when it starts? And, Mr. Speaker, there are other surprises probably. Probably, Mr. Speaker, they will be surprised. They will be surprised, Mr. Speaker, when the writ of the next election is called, whenever the Premier decides, because I can assure you that, according to the latest poll where the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) had a 7 per cent credibility rating, that there will be a lot go down the drain with their leader . He will not be going alone. MR.

FLIGHT: Have you really seen the poll? MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I am very familiar with the poll that was conducted and very familiar, Mr. Speaker, with the results of the poll in the area where the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) lives . I am very familiar, Mr. Speaker, as it relates to the results of the poll, as I· am, Mr. Speaker, with L2646 June 3, 1986 Vol XL the poll as it relates to the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick). MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TUL.K: I have been threatened three terms by that side over there. They are going to get me.

The last election the Premier wanted all the media in the Province to watch Fogo, keep watching Fogo. Is he threatening me again? If he is, I am assured of success. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: We will be watching Harbour Grace this time. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order . The han. the member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, there is such a rule and such a principle in politics, I guess it relates to the technique of politics, that I will admit, Mr. Speaker, I am still learning. But there is such a technique, Mr.

Speaker, when you have people opposite who lack any credibility or any comparability, then you try to get them elected. Now, Mr. government House and has to put Speaker, when this has to look across the see what the Opposition up! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: No. 45 R2646

To look ac~oss, Mr. Speaker, and see the be~t opposition - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: - the best opposition coming from the NDP Party, the best opposition in this House coming from the NDP Party, Mr. Speaker, when one member in the NDP Party can outshine in common sense and practical terms the entire Opposition then, Mr. Speaker, I submit that we need to keep people like the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) re-elected. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that as incompetent as the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) is, he is more competent than the present Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: Now, Mr. Speaker, yes, I did say the best Opposition is the NDP. There is no question. But again, the Leader of the NDP, Mr. Speaker, better not get a swelled head. All he has to do is look around and see what the rest of the Opposition is made up of and then, Mr. Speaker, he will know what I am talking about. Mr. Speaker, if I could get on as it relates to the Atlantic Accord. We have seen significant progress made in this Province during the past few years as it relates to the offshore. We have seen an Atlantic Accord put in place, Mr.

Speaker, that these gentlemen opposite in the official Opposition did not support because it gave Newfoundlanders the right to have some say in its revenue sharing, that gave Newfoundland, L2647 June 3, 1986 Vol XL basically, control of the levers that will operate the offshore, when they had stood by year after year, day after day, month after month, supporting the Trudeau government that was prepared to give Newfoundlanders nothing short of his fingers, the straight salute that he was known for. Mr. Speaker, they are disappointed by this Atlantic Accord! In my own district, Mr.

Speaker, I can say that we have made significant progress. We have seen, Mr. Speaker, progress at the Marystown Shipyard, which is owned and operated by this government. Mr. Speaker, while I speak of that, last year the Marys town Shipyard was the second highest employer of any shipyard in Canada and every piece of new construction, Mr. Speaker, was for this government. I would suspect, Mr. Speaker, that 90 per cent or 70 per cent of the repair work was repair work on government-own-ed boats. Mr. Speaker, that is the type of commitment ' that this government has had.

It is the type of commitment that this government now has and, I am sure, the type of commitment this government will continue to have for the Marystown Shipyard. As well, Mr. Speaker, we have signed the technology agreement with Moss Rosenberg Limited of Norway, an agreement which has twelve young engineers, just out of university, Mr. Speaker, over in Norway for one year involved in the actual construction of a concrete platform. We have also the technology agreement where we have had, I think it is, six management personnel, senior people from the shipyard, over there for a four month period. No. 45 R2647

They are now back, and we have six presently in Norway. Mr. Speaker, more people Now, Mr. Speaker, as the time progressed since these people went over there last January and they got involved in, the actual construction of the concrete platform, they impressed upon the people from Moss Rosenberg the competency of the Marystown Shipyard and the competency in the work force of the Marystown Shipyard. Mr. Speaker, what happened? About three weeks ago the Moss Rosenberg operation in Norway needed additional welders. They did not have enough welders available in Norway. What did they do, Mr. Speaker?

They called the Marystown shipyard and offered to hire twenty-two welders from Marystown, twenty-two welders, Mr. Speaker, eleven of whom are now in Norway and will be there for a four-month period, as I understand it. They are actually involved in a training process that will give them the best certificates, the opportunity to operate some of the best, if not, I would suspect, the most significant - MR. FUREY: Highly technical. ~. TOBIN: highly technical equipment as it relates to the welding field in this Province. There will be twenty-two more going when these come back.

In Marystown, we will have twelve professional engineers, we will have a one-year operation in Norway; we will have something like twelve or eighteen senior personnel at the Marystown shipyard who will have been · L2648 June 3, 1986 Vol XL trained in constructing concrete platforms, and, we will - have twenty-two members in the welding department who will have actually worked on the construction of a concrete platform. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that that is the type of commitment that this Province has to the concrete platform, the type of commitment that this Province has to its government-owned and operated shipyard in Marystown and, certainly, Mr. Speaker, it was a great and significant announcement, that they were going to be hiring people from Marystown. On Friday past, Mr. Speaker, several of my colleagues and I had the opportunity of being in Marystown to meet with the entire work force - of the Marystown shipyard as the ship Gallipoli was christened and on her way to the Burgeo - Grey River run, a piece of work, Mr.

Speaker, that I am sure the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert) will be proud of. She is an excellent ship, constructed by Newfoundlanders for Newfoundlanders at a cost of $7.5 million to the Department of Transportation. As well, Mr. Speaker, we had the opportunity to meet during the christening, some of the han. gentleman's constituents who were very impressed with the construction of that ship. They acknowledged, Mr. Speaker, that she was an excellent ship, and that she will serve the people of that district with dignity.

Furthermore, let the record show that it was the former member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews), who initiated a drive and convinced government of the necessity of constructing that ship for his constituents. No. 45 R2648

So, Mr. Speaker, as it t"elates to . the entire work force, thi .s problem with the construction of the conct"ete platform - I had the opportunity, as did some of my colleagues, just recently, to travel to Norway, and I had the opportunity prior to that to be in Scotland to look at the operations thet"e as it relates to the construction of these very sophisticated platforms. Hr. Speaker, it is almost unbelievable what is going to happen in this Pt"ovince when construction of the conct"ete platforms begins. There are thousands of jobs directly involved, Mr.

Speaker, and thousands more indirectly involved in the construction of this mega project. I would like to commend the Premier, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) and, indeed, the entire goveLnrnent for this excel~ent piece of legislation that is before the House, for bringing before the House, Mr. Speaket", a bill that will give Newfoundlandet"s equal say in the offshore development, a bill that is before the House despite the Liberal Opposition and despite the former federal Liberal GoveLnrnent.

I look forward to this bill being approved and I look forward to the wot"k activities that are going to take place . I believe, Hr. Speaker, that the district of Burin - Placentia West will be one of the districts which will benefit significantly from this, as we at"e now off and running, Mr. Speaket", with the formation of Vinland Industries, a very credible company with some very