LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Thursday, 18 December, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Ha rry E. Graham (B irtle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Rece iving Petitions . . . Pres enting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports ... Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: At this time, I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery on my left where we have 35 students of Grade X1 standing from the Charleswood Collegiate, under the direction of Mr. Simms. This school is located in the constituency of the Hono urable First Minister. On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, my difficulty is that I have ques tions involving the Minister of Consumer Affairs, the First Minister and the Minister of Finance, none of whom are present, so the Member for Rossmere will lead off question period. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osbo rne ): Mr. Speaker, just on that point, in view of the Leader of the Opposition's remarks, my understanding is that the Min ister of Finance is away at a Finance Minister's meeting; that the First Minister was not well this morning and therefore I don't expect him here.

I do expect the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, in view of that, we had understood the Minister of Finance would be present today. In view of that and in view of the fact that we are faced with an urgent situation pertaining to the recent - within hours - announcement from the Bank of Canada of a record interest rate establishment of 17 .63, the highest in history. The question is to the Acting Minister of Finance if indeed there is a statement that the government is prepared to issue toda y arising from that announcement that has been made today. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): I think, Mr. Speaker, that if the Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition had been following the comments made in the Ho use yesterday by the First Minister and the comments made by our Minister of Finance in Ottawa, he would know that those concerns about the record high interest rates were being expressed in Ottawa yesterday by the Minister of Finance. I am sure that when the Minister of Finance is able to get back from Ottawa to Winnipeg that he will have something further to say, but as we all know, Mr.

Speaker, the responsibility with respect to interest rates rests with the federal government and that is precisely the su bject that was being discussed yesterday. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, it probably was thr ough some naive ho pe that ther e would be something more than the generalized vague types of references that were made yesterday by the First Minister and indeed by what we have heard from the Federal-Pr ovincial Conference dealing with interest rates. lt's like spitting against the wind, the proposals that are being made. And a further question to the Acting Minister of Finance.

Despite his disclaimer of any respon sibility on the part of the provincial govern ment, can he advise whether or not the Government of the Province of Manitoba is entertaining any programs any policies that would reflect indeed some initiatives in some other provinces to provide some assistance pertaining to small businesses, home owners and others that are effected by the sharply increasing interest rates that unfortunately now are becoming a pattern each year in Canada? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, as is so typical of the Leader of the Opposition and of his party is the indication that somehow a provincial government, indeed any government, is able to simply wave a wand and control interest rates or pass a law and control interest rates. lt is an extremely naive position that the honourable member puts forth and it's one which I think does no service to indica te to the public that in fact it is within the power of a government, of a provincial government especially, to deal with that problem.

When there's some agreement among other governments, provincial and federal, as to what steps might be taken, if inde ed the provinc es can have some input, then our government will be announcing programs. At the moment there are no further announcement that I am in a position to make, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it's somewhat interesting that the Acting Minister is again referring to no government peing able, but we do note that his Minister of Finance and fellow ministers of finance appear to feel now th at the federal government can do something about rising interest rates.

A specific question to the Minister of Finance is whether or not his government is undertaking any initiative pertaining to debt moratorium legislation that this side has repeatedly asked for from the government across the way, ever since last spring, or whether it inde ed is undertak ing any efforts to renegotiate the Manitoba Enterprise Program, which is not working effectively, which could be better utilized by way of the funds that are provided for it, 121

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 to provide stablized interest rates for the business people of the province of Manitoba. fJlR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, we do not need to be lectured on the effects that high interest rates have on this province, especially upon this province, because of the nature of the businesses in this province that rely so heavily upon financing for their inventories, for example. We're quite aware of that; we're aware of the impact that it has upon agriculture and all sectors of our economy. The question is, Mr.

Speaker, what can be done about that, and it is not something that the provincial government can deal with in the fashion that the Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition seems to indicate. I haven't noticed that there is a different interest rate in place in Saskatchewan, for instance, where they have an NDP government in place, than there is elsewilere.

When there is some indication, when we have some assurance that action that this government could take , either in consultation with other governments or alone, that could be useful under these circumstances, both in the short term and in the long term, then that action will be taken. i\111f't PAWl!EY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister referred to Saskatchewan, that the situation in Manitoba is no different than Saskatchewan.

Then can the Minister of Finance advise whether or not the Government of the Province of Manitoba is prepared to study and to analyze the program which is now in existence in Saskatchewan, whereby all businesses that gross 50 0, 000 or less in any particular year receive a rebate of 4 percent on interest rates, if indeed that business is located in a centre of 6,0 00 or less; 2 percent rebate if that business is located in a centre of 6.000 or more?

Since the Minister is interested in comparing Manitoba to Saskatchewan, is his government prepared to study that existing program in the province Saskatchewan in order to ascertain whether Manitoba can be equated with the business people in the province of Saskatchewan? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, that's precisely what I said, that we are prepared to examine possible means of dealing with an unprecedented situation and we are prepared to examine anything to see whether it might be effective, and there is serious quest ion about the advisability of govern ments entering into artificial limitations on interest rates at the provincial level. We would want to examine that sort of program very carefully before making any commitment to it. I think last night, Mr.

Speaker, anyone who was watching the Federal Minister of Finance refe r to expecta tions, the role of expectations in inflation, would understand that it's very important that we not encou rage further expectations of some ability to deal in an easy painless way with these extraordinarily high interest rates. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nourable Mem ber for Transcona. MR. WllSON PARASiUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Acting Premier or the Acting Minister of Finance and it does follow up on the whole question of interest rates.

Since the so-called monetarist policy of restricted money supply through the instrument of very high, in tact, out rageous interest rates, and that was a policy advocated by Milton Friedman and has become the cornerstone of Cons ervative economic policies by Con servative governments, namely, the one of Clark, the one of Margaret Thatcher, the one of Ronald Reagan and, in fact, despite the fact that those interest rates are very high ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Has the honourable mem ber a question? The honourable member. MR.

PARASIUK: Since Con servative economic policy based on monetarist policy using very high interest rates has been disastrous and has in fact been part of the policy advocated by this government, is this government now abandoning the monetarist policy it was praising one year ago and two years ago because they have now come to conclude that policy is disastrous, not only for other countries in the world but .f.or Canada and, in particular, Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I suggest that the honourable mem ber place that quest ion to the Minister of Finance in Ottawa or the First Minister in Ottawa where ther e happens to be a Liberal government there strongly supported in most of their efforts by an NDP government. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that people on this side of the House have attacked high interest rates when there was a Conservative government in power in Canada, as well as a Liberal government in power in Canada, because high interest rates are disastrous for this country, will this government not now concede that its policy of high interest rates that it's b.een advocating through its mo netarist economic policy has in fact been disastrous for this province? Will it now concede that position in view of the fact that yesterday it put forward a different position than it put one year ago. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, order please. Order please. Has the honourable member a question? MR. PARASIUK: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: I sugg est to the hono urable member that if that was his question I would have to rule it out of order. The Ho nourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I'll reph rase the ques tion.

Has this government looked at the disastrous effect of high interest rate policies in Great Britain which have led to 20 percent interest rates which have led to outrageously high levels of bankruptcies; have they compared the effects of that disastrous Conservative policy to the situation in Manitoba where we have the similar situation prevailing? And if so, and if they've done that comparison, are they now changing their policy with respect to high interest rates and sa ying that the 122

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 interest rates should in fact be lowered because they do have a very disastrous impact on our economy? MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I sugge st tliat the honourable member should realize that we of course have no responsibility for what happens in the British Parliament nor any responsibility for the policies pursued by the federal government in Canada.

And for the honourable member to once again indicate that somehow it is within the power of a provincial government to simply roll back interest rates is not a very constructive position to place before the people of the province, anymore that the position that was placed by the Liberal government during the election last year was a responsible position to place before the people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is addressed to the Honourable Minister of Health, Mr.

Speaker, and refers to the cutbacks at the Seven Oaks Hospital - the staff cutbacks. I wonder if the honourable minister can report to us -(Inter ject ions)- To the unopened Seven Oaks Hospital rather, the staff cutbacks before the hospital is even open. Could the minister tell us how much in fact this is costing the people of Manitoba, this delay in the opening, the fact that some of the staff are there with very little to do, and the entire cost of this delay please? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud ) SH ERMAN (Fort Garry ): Mr.

Speaker, I can't give the honourable member precise figures on that but I can t,l!ll her that the operating costs of the new Seven Oaks Hospital, including the amortization of the capital debt will be 21 million a year, so that works out to approximately 1. 75 million per month. The hospital is not open and operating at the present time so it's obviously not costing the people of Manitoba 1. 75 million a month; I can't tell her what the precise operating costs at the present level are.

The reason why the hospital is not staffed fully and operating at the present time is because of delays in equipment supplies and material supplies. The hope of the Hospital Board and Administration is to open the facility by the latter part of January but that date is not officially confirmed yet. MRS. WESTBURY: Yes, a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Minister confirm that there was no penalty clause in the contracts with the suppl iers, that th ere is no liability on them whatsoever; and if this is so, would he assure us that in future penalty clauses will be included in contracts with suppliers in circumstances such as this? MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is correct when she says there is no penalty clause in the contracts with the suppliers but my understanding that there are no bonus clauses in those contracts either so that the situation cuts both ways.

In any ev ent, that's a decision taken by the board of any such hospital, it's not taken in my office. I would think that if the circumstances at Seven Oaks point out some difficulties that establish some warning signs that should be observed in the future that hospital boards throughout the province will observe such warning signs. At this point in time the follow through on the contracts has created some frustration and some delay but it has not been described to me as a matter of urgency at this point, and the board is satisfied with the contr actual arrangements made.

They regret, of course, the delay in some of the supply shipments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MRS. WESTBURY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would the Minister not agree that performance bonds whether MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Questions of agreement are hardly proper during the question period. Has the honourable member a question? MRS.

WESTBURY: Is it not the usual practice when contracts are being signed for performance bonds to be included with specific dates and would the Min ister not feel that perhaps it is time that Manitoba Health Services Commission, in approving building programs, should req uire that such perfo rmanc e bonds should be included in any contracts? And would the Minister also, since this is my last question, would the Minister also confirm that the Executive Director of the Manitoba Health Ser vices Comm ission has intervened asking the Executive Director to cut staff in order to avoid unacceptable payroll expenses? MR.

SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are two or three questions involved in that question and the first point raised by the honourable mem ber dealt with performance bonds and I would say it is certainly a practice for performance bonds to be posted in many contractual arrangements, but it is not necessarily the un iversal practice. The architect assumes a responsibility in those cases for ensuring that contract dates and commitments are met under the terms of the various contracts and sub-contracts awarded. In this case there were, as I say, no penalty clauses and no bonus clauses.

Insofar as the staffing situation is concerned, the hospital naturally wanted to acquire as many personnel as it could to orient them to the new plant and the functional program there. There was no justification for continuing that buildup until there is a firmer fix on the opening date. So I think that the Exec utive Director of the Health Servic es Commission is acting responsibly in this connection. I would hope the del�y is not unseemly, but at this point in time, in today's market situation, I don't think the delay is unusual. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L.

DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Sp eaker; my ques tion is to the Minister of Commun ity Services. Does the Minister and the government recognize that this is the International Year of Disabled Persons in 1981 and does the government intend to encourage participation by volunteers in this thing? 123

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 MR. SPitAKER: The Ho nou rable Min ister of Community Services. HON. GEORGE f-'I!NAKER {S t. James ): Mr. Speaker, for the information of the House, for those who have not a chance to hear the Throne Speech or read the Throne Speech, I think it was very clearly indicated in the Throne Speech that we did want to have participation by the community with regard to the Year of the Disabled . I might say, for the inf orma tion of the Honou rable Mem ber for St.

Boniface, myself and my colleague, the Ho nourable Min ister of He alth, have met with a steer ing committee that is composed of the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped along with 21 other groups and agencies who have spearheaded what they call an organizing committee. I commend them for the work they have done and I have indicated to them perso nally that I supp ort what th ey are proposing to do. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr.

Speaker, apparently the Minister has known that this has been coming because it was included in the Throne Speech with other vague things that were going to happen, but does the Minister realize that this is an '81 and administration and organization has to take place immediately or a month ago if there is going to be any action this year? MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, the meeting which I indicated to the honourable mem ber took place approximately two-and-a-half weeks ago and after that they met with the Community Service Comm ittee of Cabinet approximately, I believe it was about 10 days ago.

At th at time, the chairman ol the comm ittee, the Ho nourable Min ister of Health indicated that the group would have an answer from the government by the end of December. ! might point out to the honourable member that the present date is, I believe, December 18 . I might say at that time, Mr. Speaker, the group accepted that date that we said we would give them a definite answer on being near the end of December. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the atest report indicates that the cost of food will be increasing at the rate of 13 percent, I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture can confirm that on January 1, bill price increases for consumers at the retail level will be permitted, but that no increases will be going to producers. MR. SPEAK/ER: The Hon ou rable Min ister ol Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEV (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to indicate to the member, as he has indicated, there are predictions that food prices will rise.

In answering the question I find it interesting in hearing a news report on that very item this morning that it was quite understandable that the transportation costs in this country were going to increase because the costs of energy were going to increase, but the costs of food were going to increase, but no reason. Let.me answer·the member in saying this, and the people of Manitoba, that there is a lot of energy goes into the production of food and can be directly related to that. The dairy farmers, Mr. Speaker, have received an increase. Mr.

Speaker, the consumers are being protected under the Milk Price Review Commission. They have the right to have input and in fact, if he would read the press, there is a prediction from the Producer Board this morning in the press that the milk price could in fact go down. Is he against the price of milk going down, Mr. Speaker? MR. ADAM: Mr. Sp eaker, on a supplemen tary point. I would ask the Minister if the comm ission has approved a cost-of-production formula at the present time, or are the producers going to be made the scapegoats as we pointed out to him last spring in session.

I'm asking the Minister now if any increase at the retail level is going to make the producers look like scapegoats as they have been and made in the past. MR. DOWNEV: Mr. Speaker, as i indicated, it is under the control of the commission which, let me say, is dealing with it responsibly. They are working with the Consumers' Association of this country to monitor the price of milk to protect the consumers. lt's under the cont rol of an appointed commission which is responsible for that and, no, I don't believe, Mr. Speaker, the producers will be the scapegoat but under the government that he was a member, Mr.

Speaker, they truly were and had to go begging for milk price increases. MlR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Acting Minister of Finance and ask him if he would confirm a statement made by the chairman of the Prog ressive Conservative Caucus on Page 346 of Hansard when he was speak ing abont , "The se people are screaming about high interest rates" , - and the confirmation I'm looking for is the next statement - "I don't think they have any more answers than they have on this side of the House".

Will the Minister confirm that the Deoartment of Fina nce and his Minister does not have any answers in relation to high interest rates? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the caucus chairman does not speak for the Department of Finance and I do not speak for the caucus chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, accepting the fact that the chairman of the Progressive Conservative Caucus speaks for the caucus only which, of course, includes the members of the Cabinet, recognizing that the Bank of Canada interest rate today was announced at 17 .63 percent which one could expect to lead to a prime rate of 19 percent, what does the Department of Finance and this government consider to be an interest rate with which the people oi Manitoba can cope? MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I'm quite sure that the honourable member realizes that there is no way that 124

a definitive answer can be given to a hypothetical question of that nature. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, the fact oi - the fact, not the hypothetical question - the fact that the Bank of Canada rate is 17. 63 percent today, the highest in the history of the Bank of Canada, will have an impact on the rate of U.S. exchange, does the government - maybe I should be asking the question of the Minister of Economic Affairs - does the government wish to see the cost of U.S. dollars increased or lowered in rela tion to the economy of Manitoba? MR. RA�SOM: Mr.

Speaker, it's not my intention to become involved in the details of responding to questions of that nature for the Minister of Finance but I can confirm, of course, that the chartered bank prime rates today are something like 17 .5 percent.

In the Un ited States, prime rates have reached an unprecedented peak of 2 i percent and are still rising and that the gap which the Bank of Canada has maintained between the Canadian interest rates and the American interest rates of some 4 percent has led also to a lowering of the value or the Canadian dollar and an almost unpr eceden ted outflow of Canadian dollars to the United States. Mft. CHERMIACK: Mr.

Speaker, then I would like to address the Minister of Ec onomic Affairs who spoke today on radio discussing the economic problems of Manitoba and what could be done about it, whether he wishes to see a variation in the exchange rate with the U.S. dollar in relation to the export busines of all the industries in Manitoba that do export, as compared with the greater cost that would be related to the importer by the manuf acturers and the consumers ol Manitoba.

Since the government has, through its Minister of Finance, appealed for cont rois on the national interest rate, what position are they taking in relation to its impact on the U.S. exchange? MR. S!3'EAI<Eii\l: The Ho nour able Min ister of Economic Development. M�. JOHNSTOM: Mr.

Speaker, if I understand the question properly, the honourable member is asking whether the cost to Canadians to export products which is used in manufacture and in turn exported from Canada, whether the balance is there, i would say, sir, that it is probably desirable to have the Canadian dollar a little less than the American dollar but I don't think it's desirable to have it down where it is at the present time. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well then, I address the Minister of Economic Affairs, whose government has now embarked on a policy of wishing to fix interest rates rather than to let them float, and in that way keep the interest lower than it would normally be, and since what naturally will follow is that the Canadian dollar will drop even more than it is now - I think it was something like 82 cents yeste rday - well then is the government prepared to face up to the fact that on one hand, in asking for a fixed interest rate, the exchange, the U.S. exchange rate will increase, the cost to Canada will increase, is that something that is part of the package which his Minister of Finance is recommending?

I wonder, Mr. Speaker, I think ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that he is attempting to carry on a debate during the question period rather than asking a question. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: I appreciate your concern and this is not the forum for a debate. it is a question of clarification of the Conservative government policy. On one hand we are told that the Minister of Finance is asking that interest rates be fixed, which means at a rate lower than it would naturally be on the 1ree market.

Since the impact of that, !'m suggesting to the minister, will be to make the Canadian dollar worth less in relation to the U, S, dollar - and he said that he doesn't like to see that happl:m to the extent that it has, where it is now something like 82 cents - I'm asking what is the policy of the Conservative Government of Manitoba in relation to the impact of fixing interest rates and, on the other hand, effecting the department he's concerned with, and that is the department that has so much to do with encouraging the dealing with U.S. impQrters am:l exporters and the impact of his government's policy on the exchange rate.

Is that not a clear enough question for the minister to deal with? MR. JOHNSTO&\l: No, it's not clear, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, ! will try to simplify the question the n.

In asmuch as the Minister of Finance of Ma nitoba is asking that interest ratas oo maintained artificially at a higher level, and' inasmuch as that would have the result of reducing the value of the Canadian dollar, how does that relate to his government's policy which he has jus t enunciated that he wants the Canadian dollar to be worth less than the American but not much, and today it is worth 82 cents. if it dropped to 80 cents, �vould not the minister consider that serious? When I asked him what relationship he would like see, he said, a little less but not much.

Is 18 , 19 cents a little less than something he can handle or is it so mething that should concern him? MR. JOHMSTOi\1: it would concern 1 me, Mr. Speaker. MR. CH ERNIACK: Mr. Sp eaker , I thank the honourable, the minister for his answer. ' Since his answer is that it would concern him, then I would like to know what is the policy of his government in relation to its demands on Ottawa to effect the inter est rates without at the same time being concerned about the U.S. dollar value and the fact that he says it concerns him.

What is the government proposing to the federal government relating to the exchange rate? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the question, it's clear now, but the question is on the assumption that it's going to get worse because American interest rates are going to continue to climb. We are not in a position to give t he answer on the American interest rates at the present time and I'm sure if they do start to climb that our Minister of Finance will take into consideration all of those factors, and I don't really recall the Minister of Finance of the pro vince of Manitoba presenting a package to the Legislature.

He was in Ottawa and suggested that because of the problems it is causing small business in Canada at the present time, that we should do something to iook !awards to helping of small business. Now, I don't see anything wrong with the Minister of Finance trying to find some solution to the helping of business in Manitoba. MR. SP£AiiU!R: The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a seventh question. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I address the Minister of Economic Affairs. referring him to the statement which I think was made just moments ago by the Minister of Natura!

Resources behind him, to the effect that when there is a tremendous differential between the U.S. clo!!ar and the Canadian dollar. and I think he stated clearly there are hundreds of millions of dollars will flow and do f!ow from Canada to United States. which I think we all know has an immediate effect on the exchange rate to reduce the value ()f the dollar.

My concern is that in the statement by both ministers, implying that there's nothing that can be done in Manitoba about the interest rate, what are they going to do about the exchange rate and its impact on the Manitoba producer and the Manitoba industrial, small business concerns? fl/iR. JO�TOH: Mr. Speaker, i don't know that the province of Manitoba is in the position to really do anything about the exchange rate. MR. SPI!:AKi£1R: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Labour.

I ask the Minister of Labour, in light of the recent increase in the cost of living and the effect that it is going to have on an already decreasing standard of living for minimum and low wage earners in the province of Manitoba, is the minister now prepared to put into effect an immediate increase in the minimum wage so that the working people and the working poor of this province will not have to shoulder the full burden of these recent and exorbitant increases in the cost of living for people in the province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Tt.ompson): Mr.

Speaker, we have a Minimum Wage Board in Manitoba, it is comprised of representatives from labour and from employers, they are charged with bringing in recommendations. i have called that committee together, they have been meeting, they will be bringing in their recommen dations i understand shortly, and once they bring them in we will have a look at the recommendations that they bring in. MR. COWAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Well, I'm afraid that answer is just not good enough for the people who are going to have to wait out that period of time suffering under the type of working conditions and living conditions which they must now.

I would ask the· Minister if his department, or he, has instigated any studies as to the effect that the exorbitant increases in the cost of living and the inflationary pressures may be having on minimum wage earners and low wage earners in this province, so that they can determine if in fact that minimum wage increase is not long overdue and that the people, the working poor of this province deserve that minimum wage increase immediately so as they can increase their income in proportion to the inflationary pressures which are being imposed upon them by the cost of living increases. MR. Madii .ASTEIR: Mr.

Speaker, the Minimum Wage Board is meeting, as I said, and as I said last spring they would meet, and they will bring in their recommendations shortly. I don't know what it will include. I do know that it did include in the mid-70s, approximately 1974, there was a unanimous recommendation by the Minimum Wage Board to members opposite, front and middle benchers. not the ones in the back, oui made to them that a formula at that time be implemented the same one that some of the members opposite are now screaming about. That particular government, in that particular day, chose not to bother themselves with a formula.

We have ct1osen to follow on with the recommendations, as best as we could, of the Minimum Wage Board. They have representation on it, labour and employers, and when that recommendation comes in I'll be prepared to deal with it to the best of my ability. 1\m. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, I'm a bit concerned about the Minister's ability to deal with it and I would just inform him that at the time of the last increase in the minimum wagethe minimum wage was 54 percent of the average industria! wage and had gone up from 40-some percent when the Tories were in power previously, and it is now 43 percent, so that he has to answer for, and that he has to deal with. •· t'WEAKER: Order please. Order please. May I suggest to the honourable rnembar that this is a time for questions, not for statements and speeches. That time will come later. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAf:l.l: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do accept your advice kindly and in the manner in which it was given. My question actually, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

I'd ask the Minister of Northern Affairs. as it is wen known that the inflationary pressures and the increases in the cost of living are compounded in northern Manitoba because of transportation costs and because of additional factors, will the Minister inform the House as to what action he will be taking, or his department will be taking, in order to reduce the impact of the recent exorbitant increases in the cost of living for northern Manitobans in specific? Mfl. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. OOUG GOURlAY (Sw�m RiW�V): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the costs in northern Manitoba, I don't doubt that there are increased transportation costs involved, and we work very closely with the many northern communitie.s in

Thursday, 18 December, 1 980 determining their budgets and what not, and we take into account those types of increased costs. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for question period having expired, we'll proceed with orders of the day. ,; ORDERS OF THE DA V THRONE SPEECH DEBATE . MR. SPEAKER: On the adjourned debate on the motion of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa, and the amendment proposed by the Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. The Ho nourable Member for Ste. Rose has eight minutes. MR. ADAM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

When we closed off last ev ening I was ref erring to the Neepawa Food Processors who recently closed up in the town of Neepawa, and I heard the Member for Gladstone in his comments refer to the fact that this company had expended some, I believe I heard him correctly when he said that they had spent 420,000 on plant improvement. Now those figures, it could be ,correct, the figures that I have received are far less than that. The information I have, figures I've heard �as 250,000, but regardless of what has been spent, Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me that some of these moneys could be spent to have plant improvement in order to have depreciation. You know, it's a good way of transferring taxes that you wou ld pay from other revenues and have plant improvements in Neepawa, on this particular plant, and that the expenses made thereon were for other purposes than actually just for plant improvement. So it is possible that that may not have been illegitimate or warranted expense, Mr. Speaker, and I believe that there should be mor e res pon sibility as far as companies are concerned. When a company like that closes - in fact, Mr.

Speaker; I understand that before they closed up they had increased processing in that plant to maximum, in order to have a sufficient supply and a long term supply after the plant closed. And suddenly, Mr. Speaker, the workers were just advised that they would be laid off in a couple of weeks, and that was it. Now, Mr. Speaker, I say that this government has not looked at all alternatives to keep that plant open.

Massey-Harris gave 23 million away in shares, Argus gave away 23 million worth of shares to the pension funds and it never cost them anything, because they had written off those shares, and the argument that I'm making, Mr. Speaker, that in many cases, like what happened in Neepawa could be a similar situation, a very similar situation. This government hasn't looked at all alternatives to keep that plant open.

They could have gone in ther e and investigated what really was happening, and we don't know whether that plant was viable or if it wasn't viable, because we have no way of finding out and I think we should have better legislation that these companies should be more responsible to those areas where they have established themselves, Mr. Speaker. And I believe that this government has failed, they have failed in Neepawa, they should have looked at that situation. I don't believe they are looking at it, I don't believe they're doing anything to keep that plant open. I would like to see, Mr.

Speaker, a moratorium on interest rates, an abatement such as there is in Saskatchewan . The good Socialistic province of Saskatche wan have abatement of interest rates - in Socialist land, Mr. Speaker, yes - abatement of interest rates for small business and grants for store front improvement and the y should have the same thing. At the present time the Minister should be looking at interest rate abatement for farm loans as well, and he should immediately put on a moratorium so that we can save some of these farmers that are maybe going out of business and small businesses as well.

So these are some of the things that I would like to see done and I would like to ask the Minister of Government Services if he would possibly look at the possibility of coming in with some flood program for those areas outside of the Red River. Now, he says that he is trying to negotiate with Ottawa to try and get a program there and it's not forthcoming. Last session he said that he was expecting information very shortly when he was asked that question.

We would like to see a program there for farmers out in other areas that are faced with flooding, yards being flooded out every other spring, and there maybe should be some kind of a program there, 500 or whatever to assist in flood protection of some of those farms. I know that the Minister is trying to get something going with Ottawa on a cost-sharing, and by the way you know this government has been most crit.ical of the federal government in having it cut back its expenditures.

But the moment that they cut back on anything, funds for police protection, funds for other programs, for commun ity services programs, they are crying crocodile tears, Mr. Speaker. The Fi rst Minister can take the most of the blame if there's any cutbacks in cost-sharing from Ottawa. -(I nterjection) MR. ADAM: I am not wrong, Mr. Speaker. I can bring all the documentation that you'd want to have as far as this gov ernment asking the federal government to cut back on its expenditures, Mr.

Speaker, and they are to blame if the funds are not coming through now - if there's any cutbacks - they can take the blame, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there should be more housing for senior citizens. I have one minute - I see that you indicate to me - but I want to see more housing for senior citizens. We need another facility in Ste. Rose. Another item that I would like to see is the Turtle River Flood Board, the headquarters for that board should be moved out of Dauphin and should be in the area that it serves, in the Turtle River flood conservation area. ·That board should be either in Ste.

Rose, Laurier or McCreary, but it should be situated in the area that it is serving rather than be in another centre. Mr. Speaker, there's many other things that I could discuss and bring to the attention of this government and where they have failed but I close by saying that as far as the Throne Speech is concerned, it's nothing but a bunch of confetti and the sweet by­ and-by. Stick with us in the sweet by-and-by you may see something. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Ho nou rable Minister of Agriculture. 127

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 MR. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all ! wou ld like to, as trad ition in this Ho use, to congratulaie you on your position as Speaker of the House, to compliment and to congratulate the mover from Minnedosa and the seconder from Springfield on the job on which they have done in speaking to the Throne Speech and moving it and seconding it.

I would like to com pliment and certainly congratulate my colleagues who have spoken before me, in putting before the public of Manitoba a strong position, strong direction that this province is going, and of course I would be remiss if I did not at this particular time say how pleased I am at the direction, stamina and the foresight that the Premier of this pr ovinc e has had in our national de bate on constitution. The input that he has had, Mr.

Speaker, I believe will be appreciated and remembered by my children, by everyone's children in Manitoba, a man who stands on strong principle and retention of fre edom thr ough the parliament ary and the democratic system and, Mr. Speaker, i want the public of Manitoba to just stop and think that it is a time history when we have had a man who would truly stand up and defend the rights and treedoms of people of this country and, Mr. Speaker, through what is supreme and that is, of cou rse, parliament. I, Mr.

Speaker, in my Throne Speech debate today would like to first of all in the area of recognizing Canada as one nation, I truly am a Canadian, Mr. Speaker. I'm truly a Canadian because I believe the majority of people in Canada believe that vve have a country that is truly one which we are the envy of the world. The resources, the freedom, the system that we have is only demonst rated or can only be demonstr ated in the way in which people are clamouring to get to Canada. Why, Mr. Speaker?

Because we have had and we have a nation which is free and one that which leads to a promise that very few other countries in the world have. An d why, Mr. Sp eaker?

I wou ld like to just comment too, at this particular time, about an individual who is not di rectly from my constituency but a person who has touched the heart of every Canadian this past summer, and his grandmother lives in the town of Melita which is in my constituency, and that is the individual and I think he is to be com plimented and cong ratulated and certainly thought ol a lot because he has touched the hearts of, I say, every Canadian from small children to the elderly people of this country - and that is Terry Fox, ladies and gentlemen.

I believe that !hat individual has truly demonstrated what Canadianism is and truly how he feels that he is dedicated to the betterment of the people of this country. And I do believe that I am proud of an individual such as that and I am very pleased that his grandmother, who I know, is a very fine person and I can see where his background and why he is taking the lead in which he has in that particular area. So I do feel very strongly about that, Mr. Speaker. In speaking to the people oi Manitoba today and to the House, I think it's truly only fair that we should really alert the people o!

Manitoba just what is happening in Manitoba and in Canada. I would like to refer to some of the moves that have taken place, some of the powers that we don't have in this province, but I .think we should refer to the people of the opposite side of this House, very much along the lines - it was mentioned the other night briefly by the Minister of Consumer Affairs - that we have an opposition in Ma nitoba that I would say truly pretty well could be tied directly to the Trudeau Liberals at the national level. Now I think, Mr. Speaker, for them to deny that would be very very hypocritical and I . say this, Mr.

Speaker, that the Trudeau Liberals and \,.,... the members of the New Democratic Party across � the way I think, could be tied very very closely. The Leader of the Opp osition of course says that all the problems are created by the province of Manitoba. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, we have a country that we truly .are proud, but the leadership that it has seen at the national level and supported by the mem bers opposite - and let them deny it, Mr.

Speaker, let them deny that they don't support the nationalization of the energy in this country - that they don't support the nationalization of everything that is profit-making. A just society as some people would call it and a just society in their estimation and the estimation of the national Liberal Party is to make the strong people weak, not let the people become stronger and stronger. So, Mr. Speaker, in my speech today ! truly want to associate the mem bers of the party opposite with the Trudeau Liberals. lt can be demonstrated in some of the actions of course by the members of the Ubera!

Party opposite � in all their support - their support when it comes to voting in this House - the majority of the time they support the New Democratic Party, In fact one of the members from opposite who now found his way to Ottawa and now sits with the Trudeau Liberals in Cabinet, found himself time after timB supporting the left-w ing move of the people oppo site. (I nter ject ion) - Mr. Sp eaker, that is truly demonstrated. Now it bothers the Member for Fort Rouge but she has not been able to demonstrate differently because she fo!iows the same pattern. Let us look a little further, Mr. Speaker.

Who upset the Joe Clark government last year? lt was Ed Broad bent and his New Democratic Party ·-­ (interjection)-· and yes, they're pounding the desks, Mr. Speaker. And why are we in ihe trouble at the national level and in the provinces of Ontario today is because lhey believe in the state control and the state running. So, Mr. Speaker, it can truly be said that the mem bers op posite are quite happy to associate themselves with the Trudeau Liberals. A further evidRnce of that is the appointment of the Min ister ;-,c;sponsi ble, or who should be responsible for !he Canadian Wheat Board.

What is the reputation of the Senator who is appointed to th at job? CCF all the way, stale contr ol from Saskatchewan and where does he sit? He sits in the same Cabinet as the Member for Fort Rouge who was in that Cabinet. He sits in the same Cabinet; he's a member of the same faith as the members opposite. So. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is quite fair to say that in establishing the 'fact that they truly beiieve in the same thing, !hen ! hope to be able to speak to the same group of people at the federal level, and Liberal and NDP. Let's not the Canadians be fooled.

There is truly one opposition in Ottawa and it isn't the New Dem ocrat ic Pa rty; it is truly the Conservative Party who believe in the rights and !he freedoms of the people; the rights and the freedoms of people protected by the parli amentary system.

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 But, Mr. Speaker, no, we have the Ed Broadbents of the New Democratic Party. Mr. Speaker, we have the Ed Broadbents of this world who say we believe that the provinces should own the resources. Yes, the provinces should own the resources. All it means is, Mr. Sp eaker, that the y want to have a state provincial ownership like the Sask Oil, instead of the state federal ownership like the Petro-Canada. What is the difference? it's still the state control. The resources, I believe, should be controlled by the provinces, truly Canadianism, Mr. Speaker. I will get into that, Mr.

Speaker, because I really believe the members opposite should fit right in very nicely with the Ed Broadbent New Dem ocrats and with the Trudeau Liberals, they are one of the same and don't let them deny it, Mr. Speaker, because they believe in the left wing control. They believe in state control of the people, not the people control ling the government, they believe in exactly the opposite and I'll give you some examples in a few minutes of what that has done to countries that we're seeing having the chaos that they are today.

I think Canadians had better pay attention to what really is happening to their freedoms and what the people oppo site would have happen because it truly is a belief that we do not believe should be cast upon the people of this nation or this province. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to go a little further in talking about the economy of this country and we've heard some comments across the way. I truly believe that Manitoba is truly a province that has str ong, steady potential and gro wth, gr owth potential. We've heard the members opposite, Mr.

Speaker, in their reply to the Throne Speech talking about "t here isn't anything in the province for the hog producers." Under the New Democratic Party they cost the hog producers 2.75 million in a contract to Japan. That's what they did to hog producers in Manitoba, 2.75 million and let them deny it. Let us talk about the Swift Canadian plant and the closing of the hog- kill in Brandon. Who was responsible for that, Mr .

Speaker? lt wasn't the government of today, it was the New Democratic Party who stopped the flow of 250,000 hogs annually from Saskatc hewan to Manitoba to be killed, by regulation which they brought in, Mr. Speaker. They removed jobs in the packing plant in Brandon. They were the cause of the closing of Swift Canadian and they have the intestinal fortitude to stand here and say that we were the cause of it. lt is on record what they did, Mr. Speaker, 250,000 hogs. 250,000 hogs annually coming from Saskatchewan to Manitoba and they stopped it, Mr. Speaker, and don't let them deny it. Mr.

Speaker, let us talk about the Neepawa plant and the Mem ber for Ste. Rose in his political speech to try and get election. I'll tell the people of Neepawa who cut down their production. The New Democratic Party took that company to court for producing too much product to put through that plant. Again, it was their fault. Mr. Speaker, don't let them hang on us because they, in fact, increased their production. Ask the people of Neepawa who produced poultry. Why don't the y want to use the Neepawa plant? it's because they didn't like to go to the particular company that was buying their product. Mr.

Speaker, 60 percent of the product is available to that plant in the province of Manitoba and if they want to buy it, if the producers want to sell to them, then they can but it isn't the government that has caused the closure of Neepawa. lt is a business decision and the farmers of that area did not want to use it and it was the New Democratic Party who sued them , took them to court, because they were producing too much, for growing chickens. Yes, Mr. Speaker, and let him face the people of Neepawa with that kind of a report on his back. Mr. Speaker, .. . MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER , Abe Kovnats (R adiss on): The Ho nour able Mem ber for St. Boniface on a point of order. MR. DESJARDINS: Would Hansard give us both speeches because it's very difficult to hear both of them at the same time? lt sounds like a tag team? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I wanted to speak on the economy and, of course, we talk about interest rates which I will refer to somewhat a little later and how they are affecting and certainly not doing anyone in business and anyone in this country but, of course, as it was said by the Ac ting Minister of Finance and it was said earlier today and I heard him on a Canada A.M. report, that we don't like the things that are happening but it is very difficult for provinces to get involved and do what in fact the federal government should do. Mr.

Speaker, the federal government under Joe Clark, were making moves to correct what is now causing problems and in fact they were responsible, their philosophy put that government out of power, Mr. Speaker, and now they are trying to say, "We have to do something," when in fact they were the initial cause of it or supported the initial cause. Mr. Speaker, let us talk about energy. We have not heard in this year's Throne Speech of course about the hydro rate freeze that is in Manitoba.

Let's talk about energy because we do have and we have protected the people of this province in their cost of energy by freezing the rates for five years, Mr. Speaker, in the time of an energy crisis such as we are facing today, an important move that is critical to the young and the old, and the people in farming, in business or whatever. lt is in fact one of the most important moves that this government has made but they have never said one good thing about it. In. fact, Mr. Speaker, I am very proud of the fact that we have been able to do that kind of a thing.

Let us talk about the national energy policy and let us not talk about Alberta on one side and Ontario on the other becaus e le t's talk about Canadians, because that's what we live in as a countr y of Canada. The imaginary line between here and Saskatchewan, between Saskatchewan and Alberta, or here and Ontario, what does that mean to us? lt means th at you 're ju st dr iving into another jurisdiction. The people aren't any different, the people aren't a bit different, they all want the same kinds of things. They want life and freedom and food for their families, recreation.

They are not bad because they are from Alberta or from Ontario. They are all people, we're all one and we better get our 129

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 heads out of the sand and act as one because I don't believe it's in our inte rest th at we start polarizing and pointing fingers as I think we are seeing happening at the national leveL Why would we pay the people in tile far east 40 a barrel? Why vvould we pay the people from outside this country exorbitant prices with an 80-cent dollar - and remember that, we've got to add 20 percent on everything we do --- on an 80-cent dollar to do what, to destroy the people of weste rn Canada or to destroy the people of eastern Canada who are producing goods and services that sup port ourselves?

That's what we're doing and the people of Canada better pay atte ntion. it's the left- wing movement that's doing it because they want to destroy the strong, !we enterprise systom and it's the mem bers opp osite along with the Tru deau Liberals that are doing it, Mr. Speaker. Let us use a couple of examples to back that up? Let us talk about PelroCan -- and I know the reason why people want PetroCan - because they are afraid. They want se curity o! supply. Let us use the example of some of the federal government handlings ol certain things in this country. Who runs the postal system in Canada?

If they run PetroCan iike they run the postal system, you'll drive up to a gas station and wait two weeks lor a gallon, and when it comes to producing food , Mr. Speaker, that's not good enough. The people of Canada have to be fed_ Do we want to turn this nation into a country like Poland where they have to line up to get two ounces of ham for Xmas? They'r-3 starving in those countries, and why are they starving, because the Socialists and the Communists have taken over and they're not going to take over in this country, Mr. Speaker. (Interjection)- That's right, state domination. Mr.

Speaker, let's talk about something that's even more current than the post office. Who runs Air Canada, and what about tile people that want to go home to their families at Xmas time, and sit down around thei;· open fireplaces and open their Xmas presents? They will not, Mr. Speal<er_ Why? Because of the incapabiiity of the federal government to run what they say is the best to do it. Mr.

Speaker, it is deplorable_ Let us carry this one thing one step further. if you have, in fact, if we follow along the path that the federal government and the mem bers opposite would have us, with a controlled energy price right down, so that - and heaven knows we don't want to go to the world price, we have to go lo a price where the people are paid for what they do and a return on their investment. A fair request, nobody should be expected to do less than that in this country today.

But wha t do they want to do? 11 in fact, and I am afraid ladies and gentlemen and mem bers of this Hous e, that what is going to happen is if the agricultural system in this country does not get the energy supplies that it needs - and we had a meeting in Brandon several weeks ago and got the assurance from the federal government later that they were going to provide or put us on a top priority list - but if the energy isn't here how do we do it? So let's follow that one step further. Supposing that the agricultural industry fails in this country?

Is their answer - and pay attention to this -- is their answer to this an AgroCanada and a state farm system to take it over, so that it will be forced to produce the food? I said we've already seen examples of that in Poland, where it has failed_ And, ML Speaker, if the federal government's answer and su pported by the mem bers opposite, is an AgroCanada, I don't believe, Mr_ Speaker, the people of Canada, eastern, western or any part, want state­ owned farms and that's where he's taking us, Mr. Speaker, supported by members of the philosophy opposite. Mr.

Speaker, to follow on to that same line of thought, if in fact that is the path we are going, if that's the path we are going then we are throwing away what has been traditionally the whole spirit of Canada. And for the Prime Minister or the mernbers opposite who don't understand what a Canadian feels like, who is a farmer or a private enterpriser, when he goes out and accomplishes the producing of a fine field of wheat, a fine herd of cattle, food for the nation and the international market, there's pride, Mr_ Speaker, he doesn't learn it out of a book, he learns it by doing and seeing it all happen and, Mr.

Speaker, that's what Canad ian is, is accomplishment, profit Mr. Speaker, it is the ability to do things for yourselves and help your neighbours, without being told to do it, without being directed to do it by some big hea;,}l..:nanded government Mr. Speaker, i should just reiterate, or re-mention what was said to me some time ago, and this pretty well says why i got involved in the political arena_ Someb ody said, you know, we appreciate what you're doing as a government.

The best thing of all we appreciate is that the government is now less in our lives in Manitoba than it was before, less government involved in our lives. And, Mr. Speaker, that says quite a bit to me and I rea!ly believe that that is what we have to continually strive for, I, Mr.

Speaker, feel very strongly about this and I think if we stop as Canadians - and I say Canadians - and truly see how the people opposite, or if they were in fact in office in Manitoba, along with the Trudeau Ubera!!'; in office, how th'.ly wou!d take us into the depths of what I would consider almost an irrecoverable or an inability to be able to iook after ourselves because we would truly have everyone thinking that the totB.I country depended on govern ment. Mr. Speaker, it doesn't depend on governm£nt to produce one thing. To produce law and order, yes.

To produce those things that we best can't do as a collective group, whether it be highways, or transportation, Mr _ Speaker, and of course, I made one example of how they're looking after transpmtation when the people want to go home for Xmas. So I want to really emphasize that particular point.

I want to further talk about some of the things that I think are important that have been mentioned and some of the direction that we are going in this particular province, and I think that there are strong signs of development, even though we are suffering from the lack of good po!icy and good direction at the national level we, Mr. Speaker, have got the opportunity to do some things in this province. Mr. Speaker, it has taken a while to build the base that we have to work from and that, Mr. Speaker, is something that I would just like to refer 10 at this particular time.

When cwe're talking about some ol the developments that we've seen -- and I won't go "130

Th1.1rsday, 18 December, 198 0 through the total Throne Speech - but there are some developments, some developments that I think, I as a Minister of the Crown, a member of the Manitoba Legislature, are pleased to see happen, not because we forced them to happen as a government, Mr. Speaker, because the people who have the initiative to go ahead and make the investment and make the things happen is the reason why. Mr. Sp eaker, the Mem ber for Lakeside has indicated that we have created the climate. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have created the climate within the power that we have available to us.

I indicate the climate at the national level is som�)What less desirable but I have got faith, I have faith, Mr. Speaker, that il enough Canadians stand up and tell the Prime Minister, tell the federal government how they feel, and i think it's starting to show out, Mr. Speaker, what is happening. Mr. Speaker, I believe today that the people who are talking separatism. don't want to ta!k separatism. i believe that truly the majority of people truly are Canadian, but what options do they have? And let's briefiy talk about some of the things that have been proposed in constitutional change.

You know, the Memb er for Sle. Rose with his irresponsible comments, it's one of the worst kind of comments he could make, by hollering about certain people in difteren! pr ovinces, because it's an irresponsible siatement, Mr. Speaker. let us look at his buddies, the Trudeau Uberais in Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, and what is starting to show now? That truly a just society, as he would suggest or the federal Trudeau Liberals would say this, that a just society is that everybody should be equaL Well, Mr. Speaker, what are they doing in trying to cripple the producing provinces?

They're trying to say to them, yes, you've lraditionaliy been the starting ground for all these things and now it's happening, you've got wealth and things are going, but because we aren 't able to catch up to you in certain parts of Canada, we will hold you back until we all equalize. Well, in doing so, Mr. Speaker, what do we end up? We end up with an 80-cent dollar in a country with very few people - 23 million people - and unlimited resources.

If we had our act together - and I say we because we've all got to work on it - if we had our act together we should be showing the way, we should be leading the way, not trailing it like we are. And the mem bers opposite will say, bring in interest controls, bring in debt moratorium. Where do you go from there? Where do you go from there, to complete state control on everything, like they've suggested? That's where it all ends up. You control, control, control. How about decontrolling some of the things, deregulate, let the people breathe for awhile. But, Mr.

Speaker, the whole system has been distorted because you haven't been letting the people build on their strengths. I didn't speak here today to tear down individuals opposite, there'd be no challenge to tha t because the y really have mem bers there who don't understand. But really what it is, Mr. Speaker, we have to build on our own strengths and that's what I'm talking about in this province. We build on our hydro, but we build on it on a sound business basis. Mr. Speaker, we build on our hydro, not because we want to create jobs internally and make ourselves look good, like the Socialists. No, Mr.

Speaker, we want to do it because we've got a frozen hydro rate, and we've got people who want to do things. We do it because we are going to sell the power to the people of the rest of the Canada and ! don't mind whether it's east or west, Mr. Speaker, that is what we're building on, on the potential. We're building on the fact that we're going to do some go od for the nation. Why, Mr. Speaker, do we want to develop the potash mines of this province? Mr. Speaker, to provide the jobs, to provide the potash for the international market. We, Mr.

Speaker, have no secrets on ho w it is to go on the tree enterprise and promote them. Mr. Speaker, there's nothing wrong with the private sector going ahead and doing things because who pays the taxes? Who pays the taxes? Saskatche wan Oil com ing into Manitoba and developing and drilling for oil, they've got to pay the wages on those people. We controi the resources that are in this province. They aren't hauling a!! of the o!l out of Manitoba. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, if we had a national energy policy, my constituency and the people of the southwest corner in the western part of Manitoba would be a lot betler off, those !owns would grow and develop. Look at the town of Virden and I sit here and listen to the Member for whatever it is, talking about the oil industry, about the fact that as if Saskatchewan had come in and discovered oil in Manitoba. Back in the early Fifties when I was a you ng boy, Mr. Speaker, there was oil development and the towns grew and developed. But, Mr.

Speaker, with the policies of !he people opposite tied in with the Trudeau Liberals, it wilted. Mr. Speaker, if everybody had their act together today, not only would we have potash, but we would have oil spilling across the whole country, we would help the people of Ontario but because of their policies we can't do it. They're tying the hands of the free enterprise motor and let them free, let them go, because, Mr. Speaker, eventually we will be self­ sufficient as we are in food. But they are taking us the other way, Mr. Speaker, they're dragging this down into the depths of socialistic disaster.

That's what they are doing, Mr. Speaker, and don't let them sit there with their smirky smiles because there is a difference. In this country they do not believe, the Socialists do not believe that government is to create a balance between the labour and the producers and the industry. They believe that they should control the gov ernment. That's not what is a good government, Mr. Speaker. The control should be by a mix of people to create a balance.

We talked and we hear talk about people who have come to this great countr y from the old country, countries that have been socialist states, and they can't understand why when they come to this countr y they want to bring with them the socialist policies that they left, the state domination. Mr. Speaker, it was told to me once and I think it fits very well, that people like that, particularly those who are heavily involved in the labour movement and want to support the New Democratic Party, you know what has happened?

They've come to this country and they've lived in the old country with a club over their head and the y came to this country and they saw the chance of getting a hold of the club and, Mr. Speaker, that is what we are faced with. 131

Thursday, 18 December, 198 0 That is why it is very dangerous for the actions that have happened , for labour to support a party particularly as we're seeing across the way. lt is very dangerous and the people of Canada and the people of this province had better be very well aware of the moves that are taking place. Mr. Speaker, I would like to get back to the things that I feel are positive in this province. I've talked about hydro, I've talked briefly about the potash developments and I'm very pleased indeed that that is taking pla ce.

Let us talk about agricultu ral processing of which I think we have a tremendous opportunity. Mr. Speaker, I don't mind standing here and saying that we have to review the freight rates if they are going to add to the jobs in Manitoba, if they are going to add to the ecomony of Manitoba, because I think the Mem ber for Ste. Ro se is irresponsible when he starts standing up and hollering that he wants to retain something that is an albatross around the necks of the peopie of western Canada.

We believe the benefits of those rates should be remained for the people of western Canada but let's at least lool< at how they can be made benefits and not, in fact, taking away the jobs and removing the opportunities that his people and the people in his areas have, the people in the city of Winnipeg, of Brandon and those towns. Let us look a little broader than jus\ down one track. 1 think, Mr. Speaker, when we look at some of the developments that I see taking place in agriculture, I feel very pleased indeed. We talk, Mr.

Speaker, -­ (I nter ject ion)- We ll, certainly, we talke<:l about rapeseed that's taking place, the processing and it's already taking place in a very very big way in Altona. There's nothing new about that. They have done a tremendous job and what are they doing? They have confidence in this province. They are reinvesting some of their money, and Mr. Speaker, let's talk about Canadianism, that's Canadianized. Let's talk about that. They truly are Canadian-owned. They are truly owned by the Co-operative mo vement M this country.

Not state-owned as some people would have us believe that Canad ianization is, Canadianized, Canadian-owned, are the Co-op movement. Do the elevator companies, the United Grain Growers and the Saskatchewan Wheat Pools and the Pool Elevators think that the government of today and its PetroCan, is that Canadian-owned? That's state-owned, Canadian-owned, not straight producer-owned and that's what I'm talldng about, the Altonas, the CSBs and the Manitoba Pool Elevators who are building the plant at Harrowby.

They are Canadian; it is Canadian-owned, not state­ owned, and ask them if they believe, if they truly believe that the federal government are telling them that the PetroCan is anything more than state­ owned. Mr. Sp eaker, ask them if they support PetroCan. They support Petro-Can, I'm sure, only because they've been scared into supporting it because -(Int erjection)- scared ol multinationals, nothing. Mr.

Speaker, let the people ol the country go ahead and develop, let them go ahead and develop, then I think we would be going in the right direction. ! wanted to talk briefly about The Farm land Protection Act and I think again it is demonstrated why we have such a good country. Why do people want to come to Canada, to Manitoba, to invest in land? Because it is the best country in the world, Mr. Speaker, under a system that we're had for 113 years and your intentions across the way are to continually turn it into a state-control system? Let the Member for Ste.

Rose go out and campaign - and I'm sorry the Member for St. George isn't here - let him go out and campaign on the grounds that he's going to reintroduce the state-farm program of owning the land. let him take away the policy of selling Crown land and stand up high and holler loud that when he's back with a Socialist government that he's going to own every acre of land in this province. Let him stand up in Neepawa or in any town and say that, Mr. Speaker, because he will never do it. He will never do it, Mr. Speaker.

When we talk about our Crown land sales, I'm very pleased indeed we are able to turn that generating power, that resource base, over to the people who are going lo develop it. Mr. Speaker, I believe that we have to continue to develop our water resources, our water reserves. Irrigation, Mr. Speaker, has to be one of the priorities of this govern ment. - (Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, he says they wanted it for nothing. He says he wanted it for nothing. Mr. Speaker, I don't think that there is anything wrong with that, if he read a little bit of his history. How did he thin!' the people originally got on the land?

Because they were given an incentive to get on the land and produce. And what did they do? They produced food for the world and, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite is against that. He's against that, that's what he's saying? He doesn't want the people to get a hold of the !and. (interject ion)- Mr . Speaker, the Member for Elm Tree, Elmwood, I am sorry, is suggesting that I should sit down. I, Mr. Speaker, will sit down when my time is up. We talked about the development of our resources. We have to expand our land base so that the people can produce the goods and services for the people of the country.

They produce the jobs, as rt1inir.g, as .avsrything eisG doGs. The Member for F!in F!on should well know where the pay cheques come from to the miners in his town. Who produces the wealth? -(Int erjection)- That's right, the people do. The Canadian people do and who pays ttn:: m? Who pays them? The people that are doing the work and developing the markets. That's right, Mr. Speaker, it takes a combination, a working combination, but let me tell you, Mr.

Speaker, I'll tell you if they take a look across at Poland and see how they are being looked after, they will soon change their tactics or their thinking on what political party they should belong to, because that's the belief of the members opposite. Mr. Sp eaker, we have to, as I said earlier, strengthen our highways. The Minister of Highways with his highway program is developing programs and plans to carry the loads that are going to be carried, the resource developments in this province. We have to have highways, Mr.

Speaker, to carry the resource development that's going to take place, to service the process ing industr y that I'm talking about. Mr. Speaker, we have the Mem ber for Minnedosa sitting here who I'm sure is pleased with the development that's tal<ing place, and the Member for Pembina, the Minister of Highways, put it very well the other day to the members opposite 13 2

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 and burned them right out of here because he said, who was in government when they closed the plant at Minnedosa? lt was the members opposite. And who was in government when they opened it, Mr. Speaker? They talk doom and gloom but, Mr. Speaker, this is not being built on alcohol, alcohol to drink that is the sin of all people, it is being built to produce the alcohol to drive. What is better to use alcohol for? To drink or to drive, and I say it's better to drive, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, in talking about that, there has been some concern by the public that we're going to use food thal the normal population or people would use, food that people would use. There is going to be a product ol the food; there is going to be starch used to produce alcohol to drive. Yes, Mr. Speaker, starch which is in surplus in the world but the protein is going to be left to go into animal feeds to make milk, to make meat, to make pork. So we are only using a part of that particular product. (Interjection) By the way, Mr .

Sp eaker, in concluding my remarks today, I want to go back and just suggest that we do have a province that has shown wha t I consider considerable development and underpinning strength in our com munities that have got the development and the industrial base to go ahead and work. We have the agricultural community that I think has a tremendous potential. We have seen the setback this year, and as we did last year, with the problems with the weather but, Mr. Speaker, let me tell you the farmers are stili there. They are still there, Mr.

Speaker, and they are concerned and I am concerned about high interest rates, about energy costs. But, Mr. Speaker, give them the markets and that's, if you read the Throne Speech, that is what we are going to do is continue to develop markets for tho se people who are pro ducing. Yes, Mr . Speaker, we're going to develop markets with the co-operation with the private sector, with the co­ operation of the federal government and I think that is what we can do for the people of this province is continually show them that we can sell their product at higher prices and get them more to keep the system going. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it's in production; the people want to produce, they will produce. We have to help them with long-term invest ments through some inter est rebates. We have, Mr. Speaker, addressed that in the Throne Speech that we will be continually upgrading our programs. We are going to continually support our farmers with crop insurance, Mr. Speaker. We are having a review so that it will be more in tune with what the needs of the farmers are today, expanding coverage for new crops, to give them higher coverage so that they can put the inputs that they need to produce the goods.

I just touched on it briefly in question period but I think it's important to note. In hearing a newscast earlier today, I heard that transportation costs were going to go up but it was quite understandable because they needed energy and energy costs were higher. They said food costs were going to go up but they didn't say why. They just thought that farmers pull it out of the air, I guess, but they pull it out of the ground, Mr. Speaker. How do they pull it out of the ground? lt takes machinery, it takes energy, it takes fertilizer that comes from the petro chemical industry. Mr.

Speaker, that's what makes food grow. They have to buy fuel, they have to hire labour, they have to buy machinery. Mr. Speaker, it takes a lot to produce food and the people of the public had better un derstand it because it isn't going to go down. it can't go down in today's times because the federal government, tied in with the mem bers opposite, truly won't put in policies, Truly won't support policies as Joe Clark put before this public to do the things that have to be done to control the costs that are causing problems today. We were on the right path in Canada, Mr.

Speaker, we were in the right path a year ago but we had an 18-cent opposition, an 18- cent group of short-thinking people and why did they get re-elected? Because they mislead the public, they scared the public with an 18-cent gas increase. That, Mr. Speaker, is why the Trudeau Liberals are in power. The people wer en't told the truth , they weren't told the truth. Look at your gas price today. What is it? Higher than it was ever before the Joe Clark government went out of office and the Member for Ste. Rose shakes his head. Who, Mr.

Speaker, are they trying to kid across the way when they say that they are going to make things better in Manitoba if they get back in office? They will take us right down the road to the depths of Socialist disaster, that's where they will take us and I thin!<, Mr. Speaker, the people oi Canada, the people of Manitoba are going to understand when it comes to the next year-and-a­ half, really, what we have. We have a sound, solid government led by the Premier of this province, supported by the MLAs who l am very pleased to be a member with.

I truly believe that the options that Canadians have is not to separate but the option that I think that should be given to them, that the Prime Minister and his Socialist government should step aside and let Canada go ahead not hold it back. He got back into office to bring Quebec back into Confederation or hold it in Confederation, because he said he wanted a un ited Canada. Is he as prepared today to step aside so that the west can stay in Confederation, and we can have a Canada that we all Canadians believe in, not his image of what he thinks Canada should be? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RU SSEll DOERN (Eimwood ): Well, Mr. Sp eaker, it's a tough act to follow, but it nevertheless is

an act, and I would like to be gin by saying that - oh, the member is leaving now, he's not going to listen to some of the remarks directed at his remarks - he took some relish, Mr. Speaker, in saying that a few New Democrats were in bed with the Liberals. But 1 want to ask him this question. What about Jack Ho mer? Remem ber Jack Horner, wasn't he a Conservative? Didn't he get into bed with the Liberals, Mr. Speaker? What about Gordon Fairweat her? Remember him? Wasn't he a Conservative, didn't he get into bed with the Liberals in Ottawa? Well there's a couple oi' the big name Tories.

The name of Jack Homer - my honourable frien d, the Minister of Consumer Affa irs, he supported Jack Horner and he was betrayed, and I think that he has reason to feel somewhat concerned about the fact that a man that he looked up to as a leader, a pillar of the Cons ervative party, Jack 13 3

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 Horner, rode out of the west to champion the west -{I nterject ion)- Well, he's nowhere, is he? He struck out. {Int erject ion)- You mean you 're interested in people who wen t to beJ with the Liberals. I'm giving you the names of a couple of Tories. So if you can think of one or two New Democrats, I can .think of one or two Conservatives. And it's the old problem, isn't it?

The Li berals have the money, they have the government, they have almost every form of incentive or every honour that could be offered, and anybody who can be bought can be bought, because they have a vast array of things to offer people who want to join the party and to join the fun. You know the interesting thing about the speech by the Minister of Agriculture, is that he's fighting the battles of ten years ago. He is fighting the battles from 1969- 1977. He doesn't want to deal with the issues of the 1980's and he doesn't want to deal with the record of the Conservative Government, and I tell you , Mr.

Speaker, that when we fight the next election we're going to fight it on their record, and they can fight it on our record, and we'll see who the people of Manitoba will listen to. We'll see whether they want to rehash the issues of the Schreyer administration, name them, anyone you want, or whether they want to deal with the record of the present administration. I mean what are we fighting? Is this historians arguing about an

interpretation of history or is this a government that is presenting itself to the people of Manitoba for re-election? I wou ld suspect that if the governm ent won't defend its own record, nobody will. They have to go on the attack and talk about the Sch reyer administration in the late '60s and '70s; if that's all that they have, then they must be afraid to defend what they have done, and I think it's for good reason, because it's very hard to think of any accomplishment. {I nterjection)- They already got their message, well sure.

Well, my col league from Logan, who is a very shrewd grassroots politician, says they already got the message. Sure they got the message. The polls, we know what the polls say, we have polls and they have polls and we get leaks from their poll and vice versa. You know, Mr. Speaker, I think the common wisdom is, an election held today means ten less seats for the gover nment. Ten. Among them the likable but mistaken Member for Emerson. You know, Mr. Speaker, how can he possibly compete against our candidate from St.

Malo, who isn't in office yet and has already got Highway 75 twin ned and is getting roads built into his riding and he's not even elected yet? Im agine what he'll do when he becomes the MLA. Im agine, just imagine that, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the Throne Speech because one of the questions that I wanted to determine was, is there going to be an election in May or June? You know, that was what I figured was up. {In terjection)- How atiout March? March is okay.

In my mind, I'm not saying this is correct, March is the end of winter and the beginning of spring, because I like the short winter and time for a change, you know, a new beginning, with the New Democratic team. But, Mr. Speaker, when I read the Throne Speech, when I listened to the Lieutenant­ Governor reading a Throne Speech to us, I said to myself this is not an election Throne Sp ee ch, definitely not, there's nothing in here. They're is just a rehash of a bunch of old programs.

Ther e's nothing new or exciting in the Throne Speech, so therefore I conclude, I mean I'm not going to fall asleep in the event that they call a snap election, but I know what the government is doing. They were getting ready for an election and they are still hoping for an election this spring, but I think they've already discarded that. Now they're waiting to see if things will get better in the fall and if not in the fall, then the next spring. They're going to get locked in, Mr. Speaker. You know, there's a danger; the Schreyer administration did the same thing, right?

We waited a little longer, because we were a little concerned at the time, so we said, well let's go a little longer, a little longer, and it didn't work. They 're doing the same thing; they're afraid to go now, they're afraid. They were hoping -(Int erjection)- no, well the reason you should stay in is, you should stay in until the five years, that's my honest advice, because you know that's going to be it. So you may as well stay in till the end of the term, blow it in 1982, and then go back into opposition.

I mean that's really you're alternative, because if you go now you know you're going to lose, you know. that, and we know that. We can name the seats, we· can1ist'1he seats now, Mr. Speaker, ten of them that are going NDP. A MEMBER: Minnedosa? MR. DOERN: Well, I'll let my ba ckbench colleagues name them. So I say, Mr. Speaker, that when I listen to the Chairman, who was kicked in the pants today by the Minister of Natural Resources, told not to dare to speak for the government again. What cheek, Mr. Speaker.

Im agine the Chairman, presuming to speak for the adminisration, and the Minister ·of Natural Resources had to admonish him and remind him that although he's banker he doesn 't know anything about finance, and that he shouldn't speak for the Minister of Finance. .. (Interjection)- No I didn't. I never listen to anything you say, that's why I didn't listen to it. Mr. Speaker, I listened to his speech and to the Seconder, and what was it? -(I nterjection)- Fine speeches. They talked about the future, talked about the future and the Member for Minnedosa attacking the Sch reyer administration.

Did he trum pet the successes of the Lyon administration? No. They talked about bearing fruit. These projects that they announced are going to bear fruit someday. They don't have anything to talk about now. They don't have anything to talk about in the pres ent. (Interjection)- I'll talk about your record too. I'll talk about the 1.4 million that this Minister lost. He allowed his department to blow 1.4 million and to this day they're not sure where that money went, Mr. Speaker. Well, you know, that's not very good.

Im agine my friend, a hardnosed Tory, a businessman -(Int erjection)- Oh no, Harry found the lost chord and he also found the piano, but he didn't know where the piano was. You see, that's the problem, he didn't know where it was. Mr. Speaker, can you imagine a C onservative government, who talks about fiscal management, overspending 1.4 million and not having the faintest idea where that money went? I mean, can you imagine a bunch of people who presume to be 134

Thursday, 18 December, 198 0 businessmen operating in such a sloppy fashion? Can you imagine if you yourself were responsible for a budget of 25-30 million, not being able to account for that kind of money? That the Provincial Auditor has to come out and rap you on the knuckles. That certainly is not very impressive for a group of people who pride themselves in being businessmen . - (Interjection)- We've heard of "D irty Harry", that was a movie, this is Naughty Harry. Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure who I'm backing yet. There's a couple of contests that I haven't decided on.

I'm trying to decide whether to support, in Gimli, the Minister of Government Services or the Minister of Education, and one day I'm inclined one way and the other day another; or the Minister o! Corrections versus the Member for St. Matthews. That one i don'! find as much difficulty with. (lnterjection)­ Well in lnkster there's a New Democratic candidate, and we'll see what happens. I notice though !hat the Member for St. Matthews has suddenly reappeared, I'd forgot what he looked like. Well, he's not there now but he has come back; and those are two of the contests that I'm not so sure of.

I think I know who I prefer in the St. James instance; in the Gimli one I'm torn between the merits o! these two gentlemen. (Interjection)- Who do I like in Wolseley? Myrna Phillips. She's a shoo-in. She's a shoo-in. You're candidate I don't know. I don't know about your candidate how he's going to do. Mr. Speaker, I wanted to also mention that this Throne Speech has ignored the needs and requirements of almost over 60 percent of the people of Manitoba. Ther e is practically no mention what soever in this Throne Sp eech about the problems of the City of Winnipeg.

I mean can you imagine our province, which is unique to this extent that we have a capital city in which most of the people live, some 62 odd percent of the population lives, including your riding, Sir, and mine, and that is almost entirely ignored by the present administration. They are going to look after the needs of southwestern Manitoba. That's the thrust.

They're going to do some thing about the needs of the southwest portion of Manitoba, but they are going to ignore the needs and !he problems of the City of Winnipeg, and as a Winnipeg MLA I want to say that I'm going to do my best to try to get them on track. We know about the Minister of Highways who only builds roads in Conservative ridings.

And now we know about the government that only attempts to deal with the needs and the problems of the area outside the Perimeter, not the north, they don't pay attention to the north; not the City of Winnipeg; and not the NDP ridings, but basically southw estern Manitoba alone. Mr. Speaker, I'm glad my col league has come in and I wish that he heard, it would have given him a headache, but I wish he had heard the speech of !he Minister of Agriculture which will be torn lo shreds I'm sure somewhere in the next day. Mr.

Speaker, I want to describe one of the serious problems of the City of Winnipeg that bothers me and a lot of people, and that is the sad state of business in the community. You know, if you look at the amount of business being done in the City of Winnipeg in the shopping centres; all around the city now there are huge shopping complexes. There is our downtown which is declining. Then the thing that really upsets me is that there are literally dozens, if not hundreds of buildings, where there are two and three and four and six and eight shops. A few years ago you never saw them.

Now every corner of every intersection has a small building with a whole series of shops. Go and look at those, Mr. Speaker, and you will see vacant signs and you will see entrepreneurs who are sweating blood. I want to pred ict right here and now that the level of bankruptcy in the Province of Manitoba will go to an all time high in 1981. I predict that right now. I will bet, Mr. Speaker, that the small businessmen in our area, I'm talking now of the City of Winnipeg in particular, will not be able to meet their rent, let alone their salaries.

Now you kno w something about business, but I tell you these people in . . . there's hundr eds and hundr eds and hundr eds of small shopkeepers, and they are all taking money away from each other, and they are competing in a stagnant economy, the province isn't growing. if the province was growing by five or ten percent a year it would be okay. There would be no problem because if you had it hard now, in a year or two you wou ld start meeting your costs and you'd start showing a profit and so on.

The problem is that the suburbs are taking busine ss away from the downto wn and everybody is fighting over the same stagnant pie, and this is the problem. I want to, Mr. Speaker, condemn and criticize the Winnipeg City Council which has allowed a boom in shopping centres throughout Metropolitan Winnipeg to the detriment of all the other shopping centres and all the other businesses, and the downtown area in par ticular.

I want to condemn those on Council, and i don't know about my friend from River Heights, whether he was a participant in this or whether the Minister of Correction was a supporter of this notion, but allowing all the se shopping centres. Go downtown and talk to people who wor!< in the big stores. I talked to a woman I know who works in the Hudson's Bay Company and worked there for almost 40 years, and she told me last year in February or March that it's the worst she has ever seen in her life.

She works in that store, she said it's pathetic at night when you're there - there's only a bunch of clerks talking to one another. We have record bankruptcies, we have record out-migration and we have low, low and declining retail sales. We have over-expansion in the public sector. Mr. Speaker, I took a look at Portage Avenue. I'm one of th ose who likes the downtown . I enjoy shopping in Eaton's and The Bay and the stores in the whole downtown area, including the Convention Centre, the Trizec area and so on, down along Portage and Main. I want to tell you what Portage Avenue is like nowsdays.

Remember in the old days when you cou ld walk up and down Portage Avenue and go window shopping, there were nice stores on both sides of the street. I want to tell the kind of stuff that is now righ t downtown north of Portage and I'm going to ignore the pinball machines and all this other stuff that AI Golden and others have brought to us on Portage Avenue, and just look at a key block from Donald to Smith on Portage Avenue on the north side. That was once an area where they had Ganser's Furniture and there were a lot of high class banks, businesses, legal offices, restaurants and so on.

Remember there used to be Moore's 13 5

Thursday, 18 Decembe r, 1980 Restaurant, Child's Restaurants, and ail of those nice places, and Hanford-Drewitt was there and so on. Here's what's on Portage Avenue right from the Eaton's corner across the street down to Smith. On the corner Ben Moss Jewellers for lease, Ben Moss Jewellers okay - there's an empty building; beside it Jean Junction. Can you imagine a high class place, I mean can you imagine going into Edmonton or Calgary on the main drag, or New York or Chicago, and you're on the big shopping centre and there's Jean Jun ction - some guy selling blue jeans out of crates of apple boxes.

That's what's going on in Winnipeg, but they're temporarily closed, but they're there. Shopper's Drug Mart, well okay a drug store, but you know Portage Avenue is full of drug stores now isn't it? A whole bunch of liHie drug stores. Sears Catalogue Sales, not Sears Retail, Sears Mail Order - I mean il you go into the small towns of Manitoba and the small towns in No rth America you'll see Sear's and you'll see other places where there's just a little catalogue store. Is that the kind of business that we're doing on Portage Avenue? Is that all the retail clout that we have?

Then there's 293, that's for lease, there's an em pty store there if anyone wants to go into business. I mean, think what !he Tories have done for business in Manitoba, there's a chance for a Tory to open up and to get into business, there's another vacant store. Then there's Le Chateau clothes, I don't want to run them down, but they don't look like the greatest place, they look like an average low price type of place. Then there's the entrance way just to go to the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, so it's just really an entrance way.

Then there's Champ's Restaurant - remember Moore's, Child's, I mean, remember our high class restaurants - Champ's, they now rent to Champ's Chicken and Hamburger Stand, Colonel Saunders. Then we've got lzzy's Restaurants -- I wonder how lzzy stacks up to Moore's. These are liU!e tiny operations, Mr. Speaker, these are not high class restaurants, these are fast food joints, these are chains and hamburger and chip shops. That's what Portage Avenue is nowadays, and then one place at least on the corner, Fort Garry Trust Mr.

Speaker, I tell you that not only was everyone better off in Manitoba when the NDP administration was in power, but business was better off when the New Democratic Party was in power. Mr. Speaker, the Conservative administration just has been unable to cut it, they have not been able to live up to their advance publicity, they can't deliver, they promised to deliver, they promised to get the economy going and they have struck out. So what do they do, what are they going to do, Mr. Speaker. Well, red-baiting that's one technique. They decide to divert atten tion away from their record by attacking our Leader.

They have now decided that they will attempt to destroy the credibility of the New Democratic Party by attacking our Leader. You have to, is that all that is left? I mean do you have to go after our leader? - (I nter jec tion)- Well, the Member for Springfield says he has to; I don't know why he has to, he didn't say why, but he says it's necessary. Instead of the old days where the Leader of the Opposition got up and made a speech and it was adjourned, the Tories throw up a dozen speakers.

They get every body that they can to speak to attempt to detract attention from the speech of the Leader of the Official Opposition. (lnterjection)­ Of course it's your right to speak, we agree, I agree, but you know isn't there a tradition? Isn't the tradition that when the Throne Speech is moved and seconded that ifs adjourned, and that the Leader of the Opposition speaks -(I nterjection) - well it has been, I've been here i5 years, it always has been. The tradition is the Leader of the Opposition speaks and it's adjourned and then it goes after that. A. MEMBER: They don't believe in it i\IIR.

DOERN: Well, okay they don't believe. these are Tories who don't believe in tradition. I never heard of such a thing. Mr. Speaker, I say that the reason they did it, I say that they are concerned about the New Democra tic Party and they believe it, their strategy is attack Pawley. You kill Pawley, you kill the ND P, and we'll win the election. Mr. Speaker, that's not going to work. lt will not work and I'll tell you why. They underestimate the ability of the Leader of the official Opposi tion. (Interjection)- Oh yes they do. They say, he's easy we'll kill him; Sterling's better. That's what you think.

Wait tm the next election MR. M!NA!CER: That what the polls say. i\II R. DOERN: The Minister of Co rrect ions says that's what the polls say. I don't believe that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I realize everybody wants to get into the debate but I think if the honourable member addressed his remarks to the Chair we could cut out a lot of this chit-chat. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. ilJIR. DOE�N: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to say to the Minister of Corr ections through you, Mr.

Speaker, that he's now going to put a thesis that his Leader is more popular than our Leader, they're going to go into an election on that basis and win the election. I want to remind you, Mr. Speaker, you'll recall in 1977, our Leader was more popular than their Leader and we went into an election and we lost, so it's not a guarantee. it cannot be relied upon that the Leader is going to carry the party. Mr. Speaker, the polls say that we're going to win 10 seats more. We're going to pick up to the 32 seats and they're going down by 10 .

I'm not sure what's going to happen to my honourable friend, the Mem ber for Fort Rouge, because I pred ict the Liberal Party will be between zero and one seats. Some think I'm optimistic about their chances, but I say that those are realistic estimates, Mr. Spea!<er. Who's going to vote for the Tories? I'll tell you who. Other than the Driedger family I'll tell you who. (Interjection)- There's a few cousins that are on the suspect list, Mr. Speaker. Die-hard Tories. Here's who's going to vote for you, die-hard Tories. (Interjection)- That's right There is going to be an element in the Conservative Party, Mr.

Speaker, that is going to stay home. I tell you when the people are not enthusia stic about the performance of the government they will not betray their party, they will not go to the polls and vote for the enemy, they will stay home and their vote will go 13 6

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 down, because their die-h ard sup porters won't betray them, the die-hards will vote, the medium Tories will stay at home, and the red Tories --­ remem ber them, remember Sid Sp ivak and Duff Roblin, remember those guys - the red Tories are going to vote New Democratic. That's right, that's what's going to happen. Mr. Speaker, there's going to be an alliance, and a new alliance in the next election. I just predict - (Interjection)- The mem ber came in having heard my dire prediction. MRS. WIESTBURY: One of us equals ten of you anyway so ... MR. I!H.>IERN; Mr.

Sp eaker, say th at the supporters, the die-hard supporters of the li beral Party, they will vote li beral, but a lot of li berals who voted !or us in 1969, all kinds of them in '69, in '73 they voted for us again; they left our party in '77 and they went Tory because they wanted the NDP out. !\li�S. WESTBUR'If: But where are they in 1980? MR. DOEiU.l: Now where are they in '80 and '81? MRS. WESTBURY: Back home where they belong. Mfl. DOERN: Back home. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I say that the Liberals, small "I" Liberals in particular, and the progressive wing of the Liberal Party, they're going to say to themselves in the next election, who do we want in power? They can't in conscience vote lor the party of Mr. Lauchlan and the Member for Fort Rouge and the Ho nourable Lloyd Axwort hy. Here's a Minister from down east; he has a bag with 4 billion in it and he's losing ground. Can you imagine Santa Claus with 4-billion bucks in a bag losing votes? Well, that's what's happening.

He is unable to entice or interest the people of western Canada in voting LiberaL When the Liberals say they are going to pick up seats in the next election federally, Mr. Speaker, they w>il be lucky federally, federally, to hold what they now have. They will be fortunate because their vote will go down and with it may go their number of seats. So who is going to vote ND P? F1rst of ail, the die­ hard New Democrats, that's for sure.

Then the small "i" liberals who are going to look at the two parties and say, "The one thing we must do in Manitoba is get rid ol ihe Lyon administration." They will put their votes on the NDP. The prog ress ives, the progressive people, they always vote for us because we are the progressive party in Manitoba. Then there will be a few Liberals who will want to vote lor the Member for Fort Rouge and her cause but they will say, "Third party, splinter group, what are you going to do? We would like to vote Liberal but we can't, but we must get rid of the Lyon administration." They will vote for us.

So you total that all up. Lukewarm support for the Tories, impossible to vote Liberal, the votes will go New Democratic. That is what is going to happen and I think there is no question of that whatsoever, Mr. Speaker. You know, the Tories are really running scared. I laugh when I hear them attacking. They think the Free Press is an NDP organ; they say the Free Press is backing the NDP. That's what they say. Somebody said that just the other day, I've heard it before, our friends in the Free Press. What a switch, what a switch, Mr. Speaker. I've been saying all my life that the Free Press . . . MRS.

W'!ESTBUR'If: Tell us how many you had at your fund-raising dinner. MR. DOIERN: We had 15 0 to 200 people. MRS. W'IESiBUIRV: Gee whiz. That's great 1!\,iR. DOER�'�!: Well, I don't think that was bad. The people who went to their dinn er were simply businessmen. What's 250 bucks to some guy who is in business? !t's a write-off and the Liberals have more wealthy supporters than we. Our people don't have 50-or- 100 bucks to pay for a dinner but they will vote for us. MRS. W'ESTBUilV: But they could get a rebate on it, you know it very well. MR.

DOERN: I have to tell the honourab!e member that it's votes that count. !t's not 12 5 pla te dinners that counts. Mr. Speaker, one of the people who have allied themselves with the Con servative Party for the last three years is becoming disillusioned. Fred Cieverley, can you imagine old Fred? Old Fred has lost faith. (Interjection)- Yes, he has .. He has. He has written three columns in a row critical of the Lyon admin istration. Can you imagine that he himself, after these years of hating the NDP and of writing against the NDP and as they say in current jargon, dumping on the NDP . . . l�f.IS.

WE STi!niRV: He hasn 't said anything in favour of us. MR. DOEP.N: No, he hasn't said anything in favour of us but he's changed his attitude towards the government. He's changed his . . . Mr. Speaker, even Fred Cleverley has seen the light even if i!'s just a flash. li\IIFt SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. DA 'li'ID BlAKf:: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I don't think the gentleman in qu estion is not able to defend himself here. Isn't it unparliamentary to be discussing someone who is unable to defend himself in the Cham ber? Interjection M�. SPEAKER: Order please.

If we paid attention to the remarks of the Ho nourable Member for Elmwood we would. only have five mor e minutes to hear the rest of his presentation. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when the election was held last time and we came into this Chamber, the First Minister was fond, very fond, of talking about the mess that we left, eh? Remember he talked about brooms and shovels and elephants and so on, and rubber boots. He had rat­ infested, you know, remember all that stuff? Do you remember we heard that for about two years? A MEMBER: Horror stories. 13 7

MR. DOERN: Horror stories and I want to tell him a story about elephants. He likes elephant stories so I found an interesting one and that is, in Britain when they were doing Aida at Covent Gardens, they had an elephant in the opera. The elephant unfortunately came out and dropped something on the stage. Thomas Beecham, who was the famous conductor of the orchestra, said in observation of that, "Not much of a performer, but gad, what a critic." Mr. Speaker, ! say that maybe part of what they saw was simply the New Democra tic react ion to the new administration.

I want to say that if they thought tl1ere was a mess when we left office, it's going to look like a fly speck when we get into power and have to clean up what they have done, because think of the problems that we are going to be confronted with that have been left by this particular administration. Thinl< ol the manner of competence that is being exhibited in this Chamber by this government. Do you remember last session? Do you remember the fum bling, the stu mbling ar.d the bumbling of the government in the last month or so?

Do you remember how the bills had to be pulled and the bills had to be gutted and it was jus t a complete disaster. Robert Matas, who is no longer here, in the lasl day of the ses sion, July 30th, said that com petence was the major issue in the 31s t Legislature. it was the com petence of the government which was found wanting in that session. Then we saw just the other day, we saw the Wi!son affair in this Chamber. The government knew for months what was going to happen. Did somebody get up and handle this in a professional manner? Did somebody get up and move a motion and clarify it?

No, there was stumbling, fumbling and bumbling, and ther e was conferences. We had th e First Minister, Sir, threatening you and your position. Mr. Speaker, we had motions that were improperly drafted, then amended and re-amended. We had chaos and confusion and now, after calling an early session, I think all of us expected to come back here in the middle of January. Now, what is apparently happening? They are not ready to come back. We come in tor an early session; we're not ready to resume in a few weeks.

We're going to have to wait till some time in February because the government doesn't have the Es timates ready. Where is this management? Where is this com petence that is being exhibited? Mr. Speaker, when I look across the way I am get ting sea sick. I feel sea sick because there is a sea of incompetence being exhibited by the gentlemen opposite. Mr. Speaker, I have more to say on the issue of the Constitution, the fact that the First Minister is using the constitutional debate as a smokescreen. I will save that tor another point in time.

I simply say that a g overnment that came in in 1977, some three years ago, and promis ed to operate in an efficient businesslike fashion has completely failed to do so. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Dauphin. MR. JIM GAlBRAITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At this time I would like to congratulate you on your resumption of your position at this fifth session of the 31s t Legislature.

As was proven the other day your posit ion in this Cham ber is some times a precarious one and one that I myself wouldn't really look forward to trying to fill. lt does get into some very difficult positions at times and I think the way you handle yourself has to be congratulated. At this time I would also like to pass on congratulations to the Mover ot the Thr one Speech and the Seconder. They spoke very well and they added to what I would say is going to be a very popular Throne Speech in the near future.

Members opposite want to talk a lot about our population loss in Manitoba, OU( unemployment and it just makes me wonder where they gel ail their figures from or how they arrive at all the problems that we are in. in Manitoba we have 30,000 more people working in this province now than when we took office some three years ago. Tha t is 10 ,000 jobs a year or '10,000 more people working per year than when they were in office. The last three years that they were in office there was only 10 ,000 new jobs created all together and most of those were in the public sector, not in the private sector.

Who pays for the jobs in the public sector? The people at !arge. i often ask myself this question. Ho w many Manitobans would have had to le ave this province if the NDP were in power? There would have been at least another 20,000 or 30,000 on top of those who have already left according to the way they put the statistics across. I don't think that our province is in that bad a shape. ! am told that welfare payments for people on 'Nelfare have been steadily decreasing and I'll even give the former government some credit. They say this started happening five years ago and is continuing to this day.

Is it those people that are leaving the province or are retired people !eaving the province? Maybe there are a few young peop!e that are going west at the present time looking tor the big dollars that are out in the boom situation that is going on there at the present time. I don't deny those young people that chance to go but they will be back. I'm certain they will be back. With the development that is going to take place in this province, potash, mining in the Flin Flon area and other parts of the north, the aluminum company that is making great progress.

Their development stage is starting up in the outskirts of Winnipeg; the rapeseed plant at Ha rrowby; possi bilities of our Hydro development on the Nelson River; the gasohol plant at Minnedosa. The young people that have gone west are going to be coming back to Manitoba because Manitoba is going to be the place to be in the very near future. They talk about taking over the government in this province once again, heaven forbid. I would just like to know and I'd like them to tell the people of this province what would they do?

Would they bring back all these corporate taxes and personal income taxes that were the highest in this country? Would they bring back the corporation capital tax to its former level? They wou ld bring that back. I wonder if they tell the small businessman that they are going to bring that back. They talk about how !he y are going to help small business. The small business tax rate has been reduced from 13 percent to 11 percent. Are they g oing to increase that back to its former standard to help small business? Is that the way they are going to help small business?

Succession duties and gift taxes, they've been abolished. I suppose the y'll bring them ba ck. Tha t'll help out small business. Mineral acreage tax; there's a number of those other ones. 13 8

Thursday, 18 December, 1980 Mr. Speaker, what about the ordinary citizen on the street and personal income tax. lt's been reduced from 56 percent to 54 percent. Are they going to bring that back up to its former level to help out the general public? I imagine they likely will. Then there's mining royalty taxes, I suppose they'll return them to their former level so that they can stop all the mining activity that's going on in the province at the present time.

Those are some of the things that I think we can look forward to with the return of a New Democratic Party government but I just don't think that's going to happen because when you get out in the field and talk to the people they don't want those things brought back. The last session we had a great ruckus in here about fishing licences and I find that very interesting. The Minister of Resources wanted to make some changes so that fishermen could sort of have some more input into their own affa1rs, and buy and sell their quotas or licences.

Now when I get back out into the country, I seem to run into ail kinds of people wonderi ng why they can't get a fishing licence. (Interjection)- I just say, we!l, you wer en't speaking up last winter when we wanted to make those changes so that you had a possibility of getting a fishing licence so I guess you're just going to have to live wiih the administration that was set up by the former government. (Interjection)- Anyway, our Minister was working with the fishermen and trying to come up with more favourable policies and I hope that he reopens those hearings and get's the fishing industry back on its feet.

Earlier this fall, changing the subject a little bit, Mr. Speaker, I had the pleasure of going on a tour that was sponsored by CN, Canadian National Railways, and they called it a Grain Ind ustry Special Tour Train. CN officials escorted us to Thunder Bay and when we were in Thunder Bay they gave us a very extensive tour of their operation. We were taken on a tour of their marshalling yards at Ne ebling in Thunder Bay. Their v;hoae distribution of grain cars Bt lhe different terminals was all explained to us and they even explained the car exchange system that had been .worked out with CP Rail.

This was all very interecting for a person �vho is h1tGfested in the ga·a4n business, such as myself, and I think it was a very worthwhile tour. When we were there we also toured one of the Ma nitoba Pool terminals an d the operation there was explained to us . MR. S!?!EAKE F:: Order, order please. The Honourable f•Aember !or St. George. MR. BllliE iJRUSKI: Mr. Speaker, i wonder if the honourable member would permit a question of clarification on the lour that he spoke about. MR. GALBRAITH: Tha Honourable Membsr for St. George will have his opportunity to speak.

Going further with this tour, ;vhlch hono:.;r able mem bers aren 't inter ested in hearing (Interjection)- All right, I'm going to tell you some more about it. On our way home we were shown slides and motion pictures involving the whole CN operation and that involved the major collection and distribution points in western Canada, the rail !ine problems that they're having in western Canada, and we were shown some specific ones in Manitoba.

One of them being the Rossburn subdivision, the rail yard op eration including Symington in Tran sco na, switching and signalling operations which is a very complex operation and is really educational in itself; their computer operations and they are working very extensively with a new system of hot box detector systems to try and do away with some or the train wrecks that are taking place.

This is an early warning system that would nol ify the CN officials in headquarters and they can directly relay this back to their engineers on the trains and they can stop them right away, quick, as soon as they have a loot box detection on a train. And we were also sho wn a very good film on their Prairie Branch Line Rehabilitation Program. While I was on that tour we also had a chance to talk individually with some of the CN officials and it was very interesting to hea; some of them comrnent about the possible amalgamation of the two railways.

And l must point out at this time that as far as they were concerned, they cert::�inly didn't want to see that happen. They look forward to continue d competition with the CP Rail and it is th•J only way they have of guaging their operation, even though both railways may be subsidized at some time or other by federal governments. And i, myself, must go on record at this time in saying that ! would noi like to see the amalgamation of both railways as I see that as only a backward step. We have no way of guaging the railways and keeping track of their operations at all.

And while we're talking about the railways, i guess I might as well make a comment about the Crow rate, I find it very interesting to hear the Member for Ste. Rose, who is supposed to represent the cattle capital o! Manitoba, and I often wonder why he can pit the grain producers of the Ste. Rose area against the cattle producers of the Ste. Rose area. I do not unde rstand why he ju st looks after the gr ain producers and forgets about the livestock producers. I thought he was supposed to be representing the whole area and no! just part of his constituency. A MEMS!EFi: Are you against the Crow rate?

MR� GAtBRAI"'fH: f am not aga�nst the Ci.O'N rate, but I think there can be some improvements made to it and I support a position that would benefit all agricultural production regarding that Crow rate. I'm not just going out on a limb and support the grain producers. I'd like to see all producers of agricultural products get some benefit from that Crow rata. (Interjection)- They wouldn't understand it anyway" At this time, I would just like to make a few comments about the Throne Speech.

OnG of the first things I notice in it is that we are going to be proposing a resolution to the federal government committing our support for a united Canada and I will be endorsing this resolution 100 percent I know that the people of the Dauphin Constituency will be behind me on t.his or at least i SiTl ce, tain that a vast majority of them will. We have a system of government in