Manitoba Hansard — 9 April 1963 (Sitting 43, 27th Legislature, 1st Session)

27-1-43

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock. Tuesday, April 9, 1963 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR . JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River) introduced Bill No. 103,

An Act to amend The Flin Flon Charter. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier & Provincial Treasurer)(Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the resolution standing in my name and that of the Honourable the Provincial Secretary. Madam Speaker. presented the motion" and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR .

ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, His Honour The Lieutenant-Governor having been ad vised of the subject matter of the proposed resolution recommends them to the House. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 1. Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Income Tax Act (Manitoba), 1962, by providing, among other matters, (

a) for permitting certain taxpayers to calculate the tax payable under the Act on the basis of tables rather than on a percentage basis; (

b) for allowing taxpayers certain deductions in respect of income tax paid to foreign states; and (

c) for payments to certain other provinces of Canada for the purpose of adjusting the credits of tax in respect of a taxation year, by salary deduction, by persons who on the last day of that taxation year were resident in those provinces. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I think the Committee will recognize that annually we get a bill amending The Income Tax Act.

This has been my experience, at least, I think every year that I've been in the Leg islature, and the reason is, of course, that Manitoba is bound by its agreement with Ottawa, both former agreements and the present one, to make sure that its Income Tax legislation is the same in all particulars as the federal legislation is. So conse quently, each year we get a list of amendments that are proposed by the Federal Government arising out of their experience with respect to the administration of the Act, and that is the case again on this occasion.

The amendments are, of course, of a rather technical character and go into a matter of real detail in respect to the administration of the Act, but to the best of my knowledge they propose nothing new or extraordinary in this respect, but merely bring the act in line with the latest developments in the administrative procedures of the income tax collection. MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition)(Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, I take it then that this is not in direct relationship to the special amount of income tax levied in Manit oba.

This is with regard to the general Income Tax Act under which the Federal Government operate. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson): Just one question, Mr. Chairman.

Regarding the percentage of income tax payable by the taxpayer in the Province of Manitoba, will it be necessary to have an amendment to The Income Tax Act of Manitoba in order to pick up -- I believe that the federal authorities are withdrawing in the fiscal year another one percent, if memory serves me right -- will it be necessary to have an amendment in our present Act in addition to those in order to accomplish this? MR . ROBLIN: No, Mr. Chairman, that's provided for. MR. CHAIRMAN: .. •• to be adopted. Carried.

Resolution No. 2, Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Civil Service Act by providing, among other matters, for the reimbursement from and out of the Consolidated Fund of civil servants for April 9th, 1963 Page 1043

(Mr. Chairman, cont1d.) • . . • loss of or damage to personal effects lost or damaged as a result of their employment in the civil service. HON. GURNEY EVANS.(Minister of Indust.ry and Commerce)(Fort Rouge): Mr. Chair man, a number of employees in the custodial institute such as jails and the insane asylums have suffered personal loss by having glasses smashed, watches damaged. It is proposed to pay reasonable compensation to this class of employee for that type of loss. There will also be an amendment to make it more convenient to hold the meetings of Joint Council.

Rather than having a requirement of a fixed meeting in each month in which the Legislature does not sit, there will be a different provision made so that the Joint Council may meet by mutual agreement. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution be adopted. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House has adopted certain resolutions and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR . W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital, that the report of the Committee be received.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN introduced Bill No. 94,

An Act to amend The Income Tax Act (Manitoba) 1962. MR. EVANS introduced Bill No. 4,

An Act to amend The Civil Service Act. MADAM SPEAKER: I have an announcement to make before the Orders of the Day, re garding the furnishings in the Chamber here. Ash trays have been placed on the desk for the convenience of the members, and we trust that you will use them and so contribute to the gen eral tidiness of this Chamber. Before the Orders of the Day I would like to attract your attention . . . • • MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, I would just wonder how you should propose that we folk who don't smoke use them.

MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day I would like to attract your attention to the gallery on my left where there are seated some 50 students from Grant Park School with their teacher, Mr. Morris. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable the Attorney General. Also on my right-hand side are 20 Grade 8 pupils from St. Adolphe School with their teacher Mr. G. Carriere. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable Mem ber for La Verendrye. Seated in the Speaker's Gallery are 55 Grade 6 to Grade 11 students with their teachers Mr. Decosse and Mr. Reynolds.

This school is situated in Cypress Constituency which I have the honour to represent. We welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. We hope that your visit will prove to be entertaining and instructive as you watch and listen to the proceedings in this, Manitoba's Legislative Assembly. We trust that what you see and hear will be of help to you in your sturiies and that it will be inspirational to you as individuals. Come back and visit us again. Orders of the Day. · HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q.

C. (Attorney-General)( Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, there is just one point; I think I should make this correction for the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. I can't claim these handsome students from Grant Park School. I believe they fall within either his constituency or the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heights, and I think they should have their due. MR. JOHN P, TANCHAK (Emerson): Before the Orders of the Day, I think we should, if I heard the Honourable Member from Swan River right, I think there should be a little correc tion made there. When he was introducing his Bill,

An Act to amend The Flin Flon Charter, I think he inadvertently made the mistake of saying to be read a second time, if I heard him cor rectly. It should be corrected. MR . BILTON: Madam Speaker, I apologize for that error but on the way down to my seat I did correct it but not into the microphone. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Public utilities. Could he arrange for each member of olir committee to have a transcript of that evidence? At the last committee we only Page 1044 April 9th, 1963

(Mr. Guttor mson, cont'd.) • • • got one copy and it's very difficult for everyone to read it with only one copy. Would it be possible for each member to have a copy of the transcript? MR . LYON: Madam Speaker, we only received one copy on this side of the House as well. I believe only six copies have been ordered because of the cost. There are, however, other duplicating arrangements that can be made, that is by putting them through photo machines and so on, but I'd be happy to discuss this with the honourable member some other time. MR.

GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Can he tell me when I can expect that Order for Return dealing with the tendering of materials for Cedar Lake? MR. EVANS: I had thought it might be ready today. I really expect it within a day or two. MADAM SPEAKER : Address for Papers. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR .

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that an Humble Address be voted His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor for a return showing: Copies of all correspondence between the Department of Municipal Affairs, the Sup ervisor of Local Government Districts and the Resident Administra tors regarding the sale or lease of Local Government Districts land. Madam Speaker, this is how the Order reads on our Orders of the Day.

In conversation with the Minister the other day, he suggested that this was an almost impossible task, as there was no date given to how far back he had to go. l'm prepared to amend this and say "from the first of July 1958 to the present date ." Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. MOLGAT: From the lst of July, 1958 to the present date. Madam Speaker put the question, as amended. HON. ROBERT SMELLIE (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(Birtle-Russell): Madam Speak er, I would thank the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition for giving us some time limit here.

I've had the opportunity to examine some of this correspondence and I'm of the opinion . that this correspondence is of a confidential nature between members of the department, and that it would not be in the public interest to accept this Order for Return. In many cases, th ese letters would express the personal opinions of the writer as dealing with a matter of government policy, and I think that the matter should be privileged. · MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I frankly cannot agree with the Minister .

It seems to me that what is being asked for here is information going from the depart ment to the adminis trat ors. In particular the administrators .in the se cases are in effect the same as municipal councils, and they are representatives not only of the government, they are representatives of the people in th ose areas. It is true that, in a sense, they are government employees, but their function is to represent the council

whereas no council exists. The correspondence between they and the department and the supervisor should be public information because they are pub lic individuals, and I cannot see why this information is not available. MADAM SPEAKER: Well, in view of the state ment made by the Honourable Member, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, whereby the documents referred to in this Address are in his opinion of a confidential nature, then in my opinion the Honourable Member is not bound to lay these documents on the table.

In support of thi s ruling, I would like to draw the attention of the House to Bouririot's Parliamentary Procedure, 4th Edition, page 249: "Occasions may arise when the government will feel constrained to refuse certain papers on the ground that their production might be in convenient or injurious to the public interest. A high authority writes on this point, 'Considera tions of public policy, and a due regard to the interests of the state, occasionally demand that information sought by members of the Legislature should be withheld at the discretion and upon the general responsibility of Ministers .

This principle is systematically recognized in all par liamentary transactio ns. Were it otherwi se, it would be impossible to carry on the government Withsafety andwithhonour . '" And on page 251 ofBourinot1s Parliamentary Procedure, 4th Edition : "The practise of asking for reports from officers, addressed to particular departments of the executive government is considered to be open to serious objection. As to "confidential docu ments" passing between officers of a department, they are not necessarily laid. on the table of House, especially if the Minister declares that they are of a confidential character.

And if a April 9th, 1963 Page 1045

(Madam Speaker, cont'd. ) ••• minister stated in his place that a document was of that class, the House should take his word for it, and he is not bound to lay it on the table." Therefore, in my opinion, the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs is not bound to lay thes e documents on the table. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I realize that your ruling is not debatable. I shall not debate it. I am surprised that you should by coincidence have all this information at this parti cular moment. I challenge your ruling. MR.

LYON: Madam Speaker, I regard that as an insult upon your office, that any mem ber should regard it as coincidental that Madam Speaker should not be able to read the Order Paper and see what is coming up upon which a point of order might be raised, and I would sug gest that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition withdraw that remark and withdraw it immediately. MADAM SPEAKER: Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? A standing vote was taken the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs.

Alexander, Baizley, Bilton, Bjornson, Carron, Cherniack, Cowan, Evans, Gray, Groves, Hamilton , Harris, Harrison, Hutt on, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissa man, Lyon, McDonald, McGregor, McKellar, McLean, Martin , Mills, Moeller, Paulley, Peters, Roblin, Schreyer, Seaboru, Shewman, Smellie, Stanes , Steinkopf, Strickland, Watt, Weir, Witney, Wright and Mrs. Morrison. NA YES: Messrs. Barkman, Campbell, Desjardins, Froese, Guttor mson, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Molgat, Patrick, Shoemaker, Smerchanski, Tanchak and Vielfaure. MR. CLERK: Yeas: 41; Nays : 13. MADAM SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. HON. C. H.

WITNEY (Minister of Mines & Natural Resources)(FlinFlon): Madam Speak er, I beg to move, seconded by th e Honourable Minister of Health, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider and re port on Bills for third reading listed on the Order Paper. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAffiMAN:

Section 1 passed, 2 passed .••••• MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on Bill No. 2, I wonder if the Minister could explain. When I asked him these questions, I believe it was under second reading and it was difficult to get exactly the details. At the moment, the minimum fine is $25. 00 in the Act. Now does th is cover all offences under the Act, or only certain offences, or what is the ...• ? MR. WITNEY: The minimum fine, Mr. Chairman, is with respect to all offences under the Act . The maximum fine at the present time is $200. 00. MR .

MOLGAT: Last summer then, or rather when we were inquiring of the minister earlier in the debate on thi s, he said that -- after some questioning -- that this was to do with the entrance fees to the parks. Now he gave us some figures as to the number of people who had not paid last year. What action is going to be taken by the government with regard to the se people who did not pay the entrance fee in 1962? - MR. WITNEY: None . No action. MR . MOLGAT: ••.. could the minister explain then how he relates the fact that they will take no action on this ?

The fact that they have charged other people, and what does he propose to do this year? MR. WITNEY: Charges were laid on th ese people and we took the various people who were involved -- we took the cases before the Attorney-General 's Department and we found that in the Regulations that we didn't have the necessary rules. So we will be amending the regula tions to take care of it this year. Our intention was to proceed, but we didn't have the mechan ism to do so. MR. MOLGAT: Well wouldn't it be proper th en, Mr.

Chairman, to refund to all the others who did pay on a voluntary basis, if th ese who didn't are not going to be charged? I say this , being one of those who is opposed to the fee in any case, but if, after all this was the Page 1046 April 9th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat, cont• d. ) . • • system last year, then my honourable .friend's rules weren't what they should have been; should he charge some? Because apparently he charged them without having the authority to do so if his Act didn't carry the right ••.• MR . WITNEY: No, I don't think so, Mr. Chairman. I paid it myself and am quite pre pared to pay it again this year. MR . MOLGA T: • • • • . the Act last year did not permit you to do so, then? MR. WITNEY: No, the Act permits us to do so. It was when it came down to the regula tions under the Act themselves. MR .

MOLGAT: The regulations under the Act did not permit you to levy a fee? MR ·. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I think that this is one case where the Leader of the Opposition is certainly -- has the Minister on a spot. I have never heard of anything so ridicu lous in all my life -- the fact that a government should impose some sort of fee on people and then not enforce it with equal fairness on all. If law is not enforced so that it applies to all with equal impact, it is not a law, and what were we doing last summer?

Is it a fact that some people were led to believe that they were breaking the law if they did not pay the fee ? And is it a fact that some people who refused to pay were allowed to go on as though they were breaking no law? What sort of nonsense and foolishness was this ? As I said before, either the law ap plies with equal impact to all or it's some kind of tyranny. !know that this was a relatively small matter but just apply it in "writ large" and it becomes in fact tyranny, and I think that the Leader of the Opposition , the entire House, the people of the province, deserve some ex planation .

It would seem that if the Act enabled the government to have this levy -- this fee, or entrance cost -- if the Act didn't allow them to do so, then all those who paid were being - the money was in fact extorted from them. Isn't that a fact, Mr. Chairman? MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, these are very strong words that the honourable member is using, and I must point out to him that we did have the authority to do so, and -when we laid down the park entrance fee we did so under our Act and under the regulations . We laid the charges, and it was with the

interpretation from the Attorney-General 's Department that it was felt that the regulation was such that we -- we had the intent there, but evidently the proper mechanism wasn't there, and I must say to him that we fully -- and I believe I stated in the press at the time, that those people who didn't pay we were going to take action. MR. CHAffiMAN: Bill No. 2 be reported passed. Bills No. 5 and 18, were read

section by

section and passed. Bill No. 20, sections t to 7, was read. MR . J. M. FROESE (Rhine land): Mr. Chairman, I move that Sections 5 to 9, inclusive, and that all the words after "July, 196211 in the second line of

Section 10 be struck out. Mr. Chairman presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion of amend- ment lost. Bills No. 20, 22, 25, 33, 35, 36 were read

section by

section and passed. MR . CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 40,

Section •••• MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, on Bill No. 40 I want to again raise the objection that I have respecting this Bill, the objection being that the government has not seen fit to increase the total amount of the exemption of $50.00 in respect of municipal taxes. Bills No. 40, 41, 45, 46 and 64 were read

section by

section and passed. MR. CHAffiMAN: Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House has considered certain bills and directed me to report as follows: Bills No. 2, 5, 18, 20, 22, 25, 33, 35, 36, 40, 41, '(!.5, 46 and 64 without amendment s, directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR . MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfield that the report of the Committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

Bills No. 2, 5, 18, 20, 22, 25, 33, 35, 36, 40, 41, 45, 46 and 64 were read a third time and passed. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the Proposed Resolution of the Honourable the Member for Inkster, as amended. The Honourable the Member for Burrows. MR. M. G. SMERCHANSKI (Burrows): Madam Chairman, I am still of the opinion that the National Pension Plan is the only method of providing a satisfactory solution to our old age April 9th, 1963 Page 1047

(Mr.

Smerchanski, cont1d.) •••• pensions , and the National Pension Plan will remove from the control of political partys the matte r of pensions, and I trust that the events of yesterday are hopeful enough and that probably it will enable the Liberal Party of Canada to accomplish the establishment of such a national pension plan, because although it has been suggested in this House some one year ago, there was no action taken on this National Pension Plan and I think that it is not only a matter of great importance but it's almost a "must" that a national pension plan must be instituted in order to give proper pension rights to our senior citizens, and with that , Madam Chairman, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, that the Resolution be amended by striking out the words after the words "that this House" and adding thereto the following words: "request the government of Canada to establish a national pension plan to which the individual cont ributes, and from this fund pay to all old age and blind pensioners in the province a further $10.00 per month in addition to the $65.00 which they pre sently receive, and pay to th ose who will retire after having contributed to the fund, an addi tional monthly amount based on their contribution to the fund." Madam Speaker presented the motion.

MR. MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfield, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed Resolution of the Honourable the Member for Inkster and the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Selkirk in amendment there to. The Honourable the Member for lnkster. MR .

MORRIS A.GRAY (Inkster): Madam Chairman, I think that I have proved my case before, but in view of the report that the Minister of Education's statement said most of the children from Saskatoon are being brought to Winnipeg, so I don't think any further arguments would persuade the present government to support my motion. For this reason we are going to support the amendment of the Honourable Member from Selkirk. HON. S. E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Minister of Education)(Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health that the debate be adjourned.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Leader of the New Democratic Party. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I would crave the indulgence of the House and have this stand but I have no objection to anyone else speaking on the matt er. MADAM SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for St. Boniface. The Honourable the Minister of Education. MR .

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, during the time of the presentation of the estim ates of the Department of Education, the Honourable the Member for St. Boniface had something to say on the subject of the use of television, and on the second time of asking by him I did parti cipate in the debate at that time and I believe perhaps I may have left some misunderstandings concerning our present arrangements and the work that is being done in the field of television -- that is, educational television; and also some misunderstanding with respect to our arrange ments with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

Dealing first with the second point, I had in my mind a discussion at which I was present when the Chairman of the Board of Broadcast Governors of Canada had indicated to a meeting of Ministers of Education at which I was present, the fact that it was part of the policy of the Board of Broadcast Governors to require that television stations, including the Canadian Broad casting Corporation, be required to provide certain time for educational television.

He pointed out to us that this, of course, was a costly matter for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and the television statio ns, and indicated that perhaps in his -- that the time was not long de layed when the y might have to reconsider their requirements, or alternative ly, when it might become necessary for some consideration, some further consideration to be given to this mat ter of costs.

This was in the nature of a discussion and I now realize that I should not have per hapf >--indicated that there were problems ahead insofar as financing was concerned, because in actual fact there have been no negotiations or no discussions between the Canadian Broadcast ing Corporation with whom we deal insofar as the province and the Department of Education is concerned. And I would like on this occasion to perhaps clear up that impression I may have Page 1048 April 9th, 1963

(Mr. McLean, cont'd.) •••• left, because, in fact, from the meeting about which I speak, there were no conclusions. It was rather an exploratory discussion and, I suppose one might say, just a preliminary indication that this problem might have to be considered at some early occasion. Secondly, I perhaps indicated -- and I noticed that the press so reported -- that the use of television had limitations and, of course, having spoken without preparation and certainly without any text or material in front of me at the time, perhaps I used the wrong words.

And while .I do believe that there are limitations in the use of television so far as education is con cerned, and I speak of the use of television as transmitted over television stations which pro duce programs for general public consumption -- in other words I'm endeavouring to make a clear distinction between what is known, as I understand it, as "closed circuit television" and, educational television lessons or material which might be transmitted over a station which nor mally transmits programs for general public consumption.

And what I was endeavouring to in dicate, I now realize in a rather poor manner, was that one must take into account the pro gramming of the station, or stations concerned; one must also take into account the program ming or the timetabling of schools and that there is a problem in bringing the two things into some sort of relationship.

May I say, however, that a good deal of work is done in the field of educational television, and I should like to express our appreciation to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, with whom we've had the most cordial relations and the greatest amount of help, as well as the pri vate television stations who have carried programs relating to the schools of the Province of Manitoba; and to say that we in Manitoba may take some pride in the fact that we did in fact- that is the Province of Manitoba -- did in fact pioneer the use of television for school or edu cational purposes, and while I may have some old-fashioned ideas about how schools should be conducted, I would be and should be the first to admit that there are occasions when the use of television can be very stimulating and encouraging and helpful insofar as our schools are concerned.

I believe, however, that there is -- perhaps I should go on and just make a further com ment, a further comment to what was so ably said by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bon net in reference to the work of Miss Gertrude McCance of the Department of Education, who, in the field of radio education and now as well in the field of educational television, has cer tainly been one of the outstanding leaders in Canada, if not indeed on the North American con tinent, and to report that it was possible for Miss McCance to spend two weeks in the summer of 1962 in working, or rather observing, with the British Broadcasting Corporation in England, and also with independent television stations in Great Britain, to observe the work that is being done in Great Britain and to accompany that statement by the fact that our department was re sponsible for the fact that the Director of Instruction in the department, who is Mr.

R. W. Lightly, also spent the month of May in 1961 in Great Britain, studying educational television, and it is under his branch of the Department of Education that the television programs are carried on. So, I would like to make it quite clear that we have been endeavouring to keep abreast of the developments in this important field and to make the work of -- or at least the medium of television as useful as possible to us in our schools.

I should perhaps further point out that the educational television programs, which are actually received by students and schools in Manitoba, come under three general classifications insofar as their source is concerned. The first is provincial, that is, programs which are produced by our own department in co-operation, of course, with a very large number of people but are produced in Manitoba.

Then we have the regional programs which are shared with the western provinces of Canada; and then there are the third, the national programs which are planned and produced by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on the advice of the National Advisory Council on school broadcasting, and I believe that Miss McCance, to whom I have al ready made reference, is one of the leading members of that council.

I must not take the time of the Committee in matters of detail, but simply running down some of the subject fields in which these -- as between the various groups or sources in the school year of 1962-1963 --which is the year we're in now-- I find that the lessons comprised, or covered, such things as spelling; Mathematics; Science; Health; English, with three parti cular productions; Social Studies; Science again; Art; Physical education; Safety; and that April 9th, 1963 Page 1049

(Mr. McLean, cont1d.) .••• indicating the nature. of the programs which are being produced during this current school year. The total number 'of programs available to the schools of Manitoba in this year is 93 --93 programs.

In the year 1963-64 which is the school year I'm speaking of, we will have a total of 121 programs available, an increase of almost 30 --not quite 30 --programs, and again these will come through our provincially prepare!! and spon sored programs, the regional programs and the national programs, for a total of 121, and again the subject fields include Speech; in Social studies, programs on the Province of Manit oba; Science, the detail of which has not been decided; English; Social studies again; Science; Art; English; Social studies; Science again; French; Art; Mathematics; all giving an indication of the nature of the programs that are available to the schools and to the children of this pro vince.

These programs are carried on CBWT of Winnipeg, CKX TV Brandon; CKOS TV Yorkton, because of the fact that an important part of our province is covered from the Yorkton Televi sion station; and CBWBT at Flin Flon and at The Pas.

Those are the kinescope operations, I believe, operated by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation; and to report to the House that a recent development has been the completion of arrangements with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the Department of Education, and the management of the closed circuit station at Thompson, to carry the television programs to which I am making reference at the present time.

Now, in the preparation, and from the very beginning the utmost use has been made of teachers, the Teachers Society and trained educators in Manitoba, both in developing the philo sophy that should be associated with such an important undertaking as this, and in developing the programs, and all programs are developed by Miss McCance and her staff insofar as they affect us here in Manitoba -- that is insofar as they are produced here in Manitoba -- in co-op eration with teacher committees who advise and assist on every step of the way.

In our arrange ments with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation pro vides the studio, the production facilities and the free time. The balance of the work and costs involved are responsibilities of the province in the case of our provincial programs, that is pro grams produced by the province or programs produced by the western provinces working to gether, and these include such matters as scripts, talent, and any direct costs which are as sociated, and we have, as members know, money in our estimates annually for the provision of this.

May I just direct --I'm certain that every member of the House has read the report with respect to these matters in the annual report of the Department of Education, which appears at pages 37, 38 and 39, and which constitutes a report on the work of the branch, respecting both radio and television work that is carried on under what is known as the School Broadcast Branch. May I just also read to the House, very briefly, from a recent book entitled "School Broadcasting in Canada" written by Richard S. Lambert and published by the University of Toronto press. This is a book which was published in 1963.

It' s a book just recently off the press; and referring to the subject of school television -- this text or this report covers all matters of -- covers radio as well as television -- and it's referring to the subject of television, has this to say at page 194, and I now quote: "Manitoba was the first among the Provincial De partments of Education to experiment with school television, and to repeat its experiments on a regular basis, largely due to the energy and enthusiasm of Miss Gertrude McCance, the de partment's Supervisor of School Broadcasts, and to the keen co-operation of the officials of the CBC Prairie Region." And then the balance of this particular item deals with the details of the program that was and is carried on in the Province of Manitoba.

Dealing particularly with the resolution which has been placed on the Order Paper by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface --and I want to commend him for his sincere and obvious interest in this subject --I believe that he is under a misunderstanding because of his use of the -- or the suggestion which appears from his resolution, that educational television can be used as a substitute for teachers.

This point appears in the first two "Whereas" clauses and upon examining into this matter carefully, I find that it is not regarded as being in any sense a substitute for teachers and indeed cannot be used as a substitute for teachers. In fact, the whole experience is that educational television is only useful and helpful when used in conjunc tion with good teaching, so that if there are problems such as are suggested in the introductory Page 1050 April 9th, 1963

(Mr.

McLean; cont'd.) ••• paragraphs of the resolution, they are problems which stand rather on another footing and have to be dealt with separately, but they cannot, in my opinion, be cured by the use of educational television, and education al television was never intended to be used, eith er, as I say, in substitution for teachers or by way of qualified teach ers, or anything of that nature, and so, as I say, I believe -- and I say this in no critical sense; I think it probably is an obvious point that might occur to someone and indeed I only became really familiar with it when I was driven rjght back on doing so by the fact that this resolution was placed on the Order Pa per -.,. but I would want to make that point quite clear, that the use of educational television is as a supplement, or as an enrichment, as a stimulation and encouragement to good teachers, and the greatest and best use of the classes is made where teachers the mselves in the class room are interested and take full use of the material that comes to the class by way of the medium of television.

Having in mind the se matters, Madam Speaker, and wanting to indicate our general ap preciation of the viewpoints of the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface, and wanting to indicate also our appreciation to th ose who have pioneered in this field and those who have assisted us in producing the se programs, I thought that it might be suitable if I were to propose for the House an amendment to the resolution which I should now like to present; and I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that the resolution be amended by striking out all of the words following the word "Whereas" in the first line thereof, and that the following words be substituted the refor: "greater use should be made of the knowledge, abi lity and competence of outstanding teachers, and television is one of the means which may be used for such a purpose; and

whereas television can be used to add variety to the presentation of subject material; and

whereas the television coverage is gradually being extended to most parts of Manitoba; and

whereas the use of television in the field of teaching has been success fully pioneered in Manitoba by the Depar"tment of Education in co-operation with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and the privately-owned television stations located at Brandon, Man itoba, and Yorkton, Saskatchewan, and has also been used in other provinces with success; Therefore

be it resolved that the government continue its work in the field of educational tele vision with a view to making it as useful and practical as possible in the schools of Manitoba. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. TANCHAK : Madam Chairman, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from St. George that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie and the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Dufferin in amendment thereto; the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Glad stone in amendment thereto. The Honourable the Member for Roblin. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, the Honourable Member had a bad attack of the 'flu in recent days, and although he was in the House this afternoon I know that he would prefer to speak on this on Tuesday if that could be permitted.

I'm sure he would not object to oth ers speaking now if they want to. MADAM SPEAKER: Motion stand? Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed re solution of the Honourable the Member for St. Boniface and the proposed motion of the Hon ourable Member for Rupertsland in amendment thereto. The Honourable the Member for St. Vital. MR . FRED GROVES (St. Vital) : I would also beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand until Friday. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Hon ourable the Member for St. George. The Honourable the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. 0. F.

BJORNSON (Lac du Bonnet): I would like the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand u.ntil next Tuesday. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Hon ourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party and the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Winnipeg Centre in amendment thereto. The Honourable the Member for Selkirk. MR . T, P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I'm going to break the charm April 9th, 1963 Page 1051

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd. ) • • • • and deal with this resolution. I listened with a great deal of inter est to the Honourable Member for Wellington; to the Honourable Leader of the NDP, and the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, and a great deal th at was said by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre makes sense insofar as suggested amendment to the Election Act.

However, it is not my intent nor purpose to deal with suggested amendments, but there was a matter raised by the Honourable Member for Wellington in his remarks, which I think is of sufficient importance to demand that appropriate action be taken in respect thereof, and I am referring specifically to the statement made by the Honourable Member for Wellington as it ·· appeared at the bottom of page 669 of Hansard, wherein he said, "But let us talk about other th ings. Let us refer to the seeming kilidness of the NDP in Wellington, who apparently assis t..ed me to find scrutineers on election day.

They had their credentials too. They had the candi dates certificate of autho rity and signed, "Dick Seaborn", except, Madam Speaker, I do not sign ny name that way. "Dick" is just a nickname to me. I always use my correct name in signed documents of this nature -- "Richard Seaborn". Incidentally, th ese scrutineers were certainly not looking after my interests. I spent two or th ree hours on election day chasing them all over the place, and finally provided every DRO in my coustituency.with a true copy of my signature in order to prevent further occurrences of this kind. . .

Madam Speaker, I suggest that some individual, or some individuals were guilty of for-· gery, which is a criminal offence under the Criminal Code of Canada, and I feel that it is in cumbent upon this government to institute a judicial enquiry to look into this matter, to ascer tain whether or no it would be possible to prosecute the individual or the individuals involved. The Honourable Member for Wellington is an honourable gentleman, and I do not think he would make such a statement as he did to this House without having adequate proof.

I also feel, too, Madam, that there is a possibility tha t these credentials that were used and forged may still be in the ballot boxes for the various polls. It's quite-true that under the provisions of our El ection Act there is no specific provision therein requiring a candidate's agent to deliver to a DRO a certificate of authority to act as that-agent at the poll, but I believe that some DROs do insist upon that individual or the se individuals delivering up to them these certificates and that they keep th em in their possession.

Now it's quite possible that in Wellington constit uency some of th ese forged credentials may still be in existence, and I think it would be a very easy matter to trace the individual to whom this certifcate was issued, for the purpose of taking further action in respect of what, in my mind, amounts to a crime. I therefore wish to move, Madam, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that the amendment to the proposed motion be further amended by adding thereto the following paragraphs, namely:

(1) By inserting between the second and third paragraphs of the

preamble the following additional paragraph, namely: "And

whereas it is still further alleged that in the constituency of Wellington in the last general election, some unknown individual was guilty of a criminal offence, to whit, forgery;" and

(2) By adding to the operative part of the resolution the following additional words: ."And be it still further resolved that the said Commit tee deal with the aforesaid ir:.:egularities and that a judicial enquiry be instituted to deal with the aforesaid allegation of forgery. " · Madam Speaker presented the motion (sub-amendment). MR. SCHREYER: Could I direct a question to the last speaker with his permission? In his opinion is not a false declaration a criminal offence, and if so, why did you not include it in the term of reference?

MR. mLLHOUSE: Well the only reason why I didn't include it in the term of reference, Madam Speaker, was due to the fact that I don't think the Honourable Member for Wellington dealt with it. He only dealt with this one specific case of forgery. MR . GROVES: I don't wish to speak on the subject of forgery, but I would like to speak at this time on the resolution, if I'm in order. I'm sorry, Madam, I guess th ere's people chattering in the background and I haven't heard you. MADAM SPEAKER: We are on the sub-amendment and I have put the question here. Are you ready for the question.

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR . mLLHOUSE: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in th e members. A standing vote was taken with the following results: Page 1052 April 9th, 1963

YEAS: Messrs. Barkman; Campbell, Cherniack, Desjardins, Froese, Gray, Guttorm son, Harris, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Johnston, Molgat, Patrick, Paulley, Schreyer, Shoe maker, Smer!)hanski, Tanchak, Vielfaure and Wright. NAYS: Messrs. Alexander, Baizley, Bilton, Bjornson, Carron, Cowan, Evans, Groves, Hamilton, Harrison, Hutton, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McDonald, McGregor, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Mills, Moeller, Roblin, Seaborn, Shewman, Smellie, Stanes, Steinkopf, Strickland, Watt, Weir, Witney and Mrs. Morrison. , MR. CLERK: Yeas, 20; Nays, 34. Madam Speaker declared the motion lost • . MR.

GROVES: Speaking to this Resolution I realize that there are many minor changes that we should make in our Election Act, and, there are also . a number of major ones that I think that this Committee when it meets should conside.r. For example, in the Act there are three different dates mentioned for the qualification of a voter in a constituency.

Section 17 of the Act seems to lead to the greatest confusion. It states that in order to be on the voters list a voter must, at least three months immediately preceding the date of the writ of election, have resided in that constituency.

Section 26 (2) goes on to state that any person may apply to have his name added at the Revision and to take an oath in Form 40. Now Form 40 requires that the voter's residence be established in Manitoba 12 months prior to polling day, and in the el ectoral division three months prior to polling day.

And in this connection if we look at the affi davit required by Form 40, we find that a voter is asked to take an affidavit that he in all con science can't actually sign, and he swears to this, that you are a British subject by birth or naturalization, or that you are of the full age of 21 years and that you have resided in the Pro Vince of Manitoba for at least one year immediately preceding the date of polling day at this election, and in this electoral division for at least three months immediately preceding the said day, and that you are now resident in this polling division.

Now I submit, Madam Speak er, that a person can't in all honesty really take an oath like that. I think if this

section of the Act was made consistent we would save a great deal of em barrassment and trouble to our Returning officers, since at the time of the enumeration they must tell a resident to apply for registration in the constituency of his residence three months prior to the writ, but if he leaves them alone until the Court of Revision, then this resident has an extra 35 days leeway. And on the same matter,

Section 17 (3) allows a person qualifying with 12 months' Manit oba residence and three months' electoral division residence immediately preceding the date fixed for the revision of the list. So there's our third different quaHfication, and in this case it has his name placed on the voters' list. And again, sub-section 4 of

Section 17 allows any person who attains the full age of 21 years to be added at the Court of Revision with the date given as immediately preceding the date again fixed for polling day. Now it seems to me, Madam Spe�er, that this is a very com plicated

section of the Act; it's very confusing; and I think the Committee should give some consideration to changing it. We also find that the Act provides for the posting of two copies of the proclamation in each polling division, and I wonder if it's necessary in all cases to post these proclamations in each polling division. We have problems in some of the new, or the newer residential sub urbs of Greater Winnipeg where there are no poles, unless you use the poles in the back lanes on which these proclamations can be posted, because all of the light standards on these new streets are steel.

So I doubt, first of all, whether it should be necessary to have these pro clamations posted in every poll, and secondly I point out the impracticability of it in some instances. _ I also submit that if our Court of Revision' were held at a later date, preferably after no mination date, that candidates would have the opportunity to look over these lists before the actual Court of Revision, and I would point out that in the last election campaign in the constit uency of St.

Vital that we received our. printed voters list only two days before the Court of Re vision, and that in the constituency of Churchill, the printed voters' lists were not received by the candidates until after the Court of Revision was closed. I would also suggest that perhaps nomination day might be moved ahead a week, and there is some doubt 1ri my mind about the usefulness of the Court of Appeal. This Court of Appeal is not used very much, and I think we April 9th, 1963 Page 1053

(Mr. Groves, cont'd. ) •••• have to keep in mind that both the Returning Officer -- or the DRO rather, and the scrutineer at the poll on election day, has the authority to challenge a per son's right to vote if they are on the voters' list and they feel that they should not be. So I feel · that this should be sufficient protection against persons appearing on the voters' list either in error, or fraudulently, and that the Court of Revision in view of its very small use in most in stances is not necessary.

I would also suggest that we should give in our Act the Returning Officer the power to add voters to the list. I do not seem to see in the Act where the Returning Officer has this power at the moment. And I would suggest that there are instances where a returning officer, because of his knowledge of a district or of a cons tituency, might well know of a number of houses or apart ment blocks that have not been enumerated, and I think that the returning officer should as the electoral officer in that constituency, be allowed to add these names to the list.

In connection with the adding of people to the list that was discussed when the Honourable Member for Wellington was speaking, I would say that in this respect we noticed a large number of persons who were not on the voters' list in our constituency. We didn't write them letters but we did have the people in our com mittee room telephone them, and in some instances we had their names put on; in ot hers we asked them to go down to the Court of Revision and to have their names put on the voters' list themselves. · Now these people, who through our efforts were put on the voters' list in the constituency of St.

Vital, certainly, I'm sure, didn't all vote for me, but we wanted to make sure -- or I wanted to make sure that at least those who were going to had their names properly on the list. And I think that this is all that the Honourable Member for Wellington was trying to do -- to make sure that these people had their right to vote and that they were properly on the list. I think, Madam Speaker, that we should also consider, as is done in the Federal Act, al lowing our DROs and poll clerks to vote at the Advance Poll.

This saves in many cases some fuss on election day and where in some constituencies where it's impossible for various rea sons to get a DRO or a clerk to be in his own polling division, then I think we could save a lot of trouble by having these people qualify to vote at· the Advance Poll.

In connectiOn with enumerat ion, I would also suggest that our com mittee might consider special cards for the enumerators that where a resident is not home when the enumerator calls, he leaves this card giving the enumerator's name , address and telephone number, and with a printed part to indicate that she was calling for the enumeration, and to give the voter a chance to call the enumerator and therefore be included on the original voters' list.

This is done very succes sfully by the Gas Company and by the municipal Waterworks Department in Greater Winnipeg area, and I see no reason why this mightn1t also be practical in the case of enumera tion.

In connection with my remarks on the confusion of these three different dates, I would suggest that we should abolish this three months' res idence rule as inconvenient, silly and un just, and that a person should be enumerated where they live on the date that the writ is issued, the same as applies in a Federal election, and that anyone who will be 21 years of age, or otherwise qualified to vote on election day, should be enumerated at the time of the original enumeration.

I would also suggest that if we are going to have a Court of Revision that this Court of Re vision -- and I emphasize this again -- should not commence prior to the voters' list being printed. In fact, we might well take a further lesson from the Federal Act and appoint special revisal agents -- I think they call them -- to re-enumerate polls that the original enumerators have done badly, or to make sure that persons who have been omitted are on the list.

Also, I might suggest that we should give some consideration to not having a set date for the Court of Revision, and that this might well be a continuing operation for people that are qualified to be on the list to be added, up to say, one or two days before election day; as long as there's enough time for the Returning Officer in the constituency to be notified and to notify his or her DROs.

I would also suggest that nomination should close three weeks before election day, rather than two as it is at the present time, and that our advance polls should be opened two weeks a head of election day, rather than one; and further that our polls be made smaller; that the Page 1054 April 9th, 1963

(Mr. Groves, cont'd. ) •••• number of vot ers, particularly 1f we have a heavy turnout, makes a pretty rough job on the people in the polls on election day with our present -- I believe the number is 500 -- and that we should try insofar as we can, to have the polls situated either within or immediately adjacent -- the polling place situated within or immediately adjacent to the poll.

There are some polls in my constitue ncy that consist of long streets and the polls are situated at the end of these streets, mostly because of the requirement -- and I'm not sure whether this is in the Act or not -- that we must use schools. Now I'm in agreement with using schools or other public buildings on election day provided that it isn't putting -- particularly older people -- at any undue convenience or preventing them from exercising their franchise. Where this is the case, then I think other arrangements than schools or public buildings should be made.

Section 30 of the Act which deals with corrupt practices I think is also ridiculous and should either be removed or substantially amended; It states that "no candidate at an election and no person nominated ·or selected as a candidate shall at any time after his nomination or selection, and before the date for the holding of the poll at the election make or promise to make directly or indirectly a subscriptio n or donation for any religious, charitable or philan th ropic purpose, or to any society or associati on, and no person shall solicit any such sub scription or donation from any such candidate or person nominated or selected as a candidate during the period above mentioned.

" Perhaps this was alright at the time the Election Act was written, Madam Speaker, when we had prevailing practi ces of trying to bribe candidates and buy votes; but I would say that in this case thi s rules out donations of a dollar or two dollars at a tea that a candidate attends , and certainly we all do that; that it would prohibit a candidate from giving a donation to his church during this period or to give any money to any fund-rais ing drive during a campaign. I would suggest that under present day circumstances this is not necessary; further it is silly, and I don't think that it's needed in our Act.

These are but a few of the changes that I think . this Committee might well consider. Both Nova Scotia and Quebec in 1961 had fairly -- set up Royal Commissions who made some fairly drastic recommendations as to the revision of the Act in these two provinces and I think that perhaps the time has come when we should be thinking likewise in Manitoba. Our Act and its form are in my opinion, full of archaic language and complicated legal procedure.

I don't be lieve that these are necessary and I think that we have to bear in mind th at the proper function ing of an election campaign is largely the responsibility of hundreds of people in the various constitue ncies who do not have legal training and I would suggest that their governing Act inso far as it is possible, .and certainly their instructi ons, should be written in a language which they understand. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre when he was speaking on this resolution a few weeks ago I think pointed this out very well when he was discussing the word ing in our Proclamation.

Surely this archaic language is no longer necessary and particularly if this extends into the Act and into the instruction books th at are given to the people that are responsible for running the election. I think both commissions, but certainly the Royal Commission that was set up in Nova Scotia, made recommendations to c�ify the language of their Act and endeavour insofar as it is possible to have it uniform in language and approach with the Canada Elections Act.

They also recommended that the posting and preparation of enumerators' lists be abolished, and in stead they suggested that the enumerators be supplied with multi-page books in which they re corded the names of the voters; the typing of the lists was not required and th ese slips when they were turned in to the Returning Officer he kept one for his own record; one was given to the printer and the othe rs were given to the candidate .

They also suggest in this Royal Com mission report that copies of these slips be given to the politic al organizations that are spon soring candidates in the event that a candidate doesn't happen to be nominated at that ti me. It is interest ing to note in this respect, and also in oth ers, that the Royal Commission does l'e commend in Nova Scotia the recognition of political parties which we do only in one

section of our Act. The Commission's report also contains some very interesting recommendations regard ing proxy voting for members of the Armed Forces, for patients in hospitals , fishermen and unmarried students -- unmarried students , that is, that are in full-time att endance at a school -- and this is something that we might well look into. We recently amended our Act to take April 9th, 1963 Page 1055

(Mr. Groves, cont1d. ) •••• care of some of the se people, particularly the fishermen, but perhaps if we investigate it further this matter of proxy voting, it might be a better way .of handling this situati on. And I think that if we did agree to do this that with proper safeguards that this could ensure a vote for many who are at the present time deprived of it.

They further recommend something tha t we should consider, and that is a special poll on the gr_ound floor in each constituency with special facilities for the handling or to accomodate incapacitated per sons -- th at is persons in wheel chairs, persons who are required to walk with canes or crutches or similar help.

They also recommend -- and this I thought to be quite inte resting in view of the situation that we had in the constituency of Kildonan -- they recommend a ballot that is en tirely black with the names of the candidates printed in white and at the far right of the ballot, opposite each candidate's name, a round white circle in which the voter is required to put his "X".

This I think certainly would eliminate the double "X's" which we had in the case of Kil donan because there is no room on this particular ballot for m()re than one "X", and even if one was put on in the left hand, it certainly wouldn't be seen because the whole background of the ballot is black. I mentioned the provision for the appointment of - oh no -- the Commission also re commends, and this I don't think is in our Act either, the provision for the appointment of an agent at large to represent each candidate on election day.

That is, that an agent . would be supplied with a credential from the candidate and he would be empowered with this credential to visit any poll as often as he wished on elect ion day on behalf of the candidate.

The Commission also recommends that where possible the posting of notices be replaced by advertisements in the daily newspapers; and they also suggest -- although this is one that I think perhaps we could look at at least -- they also suggest the mailing rather than the posting of voters' lists on the poll, the mailing of a copy of the voters' list to each resident in the poll, as is done in a federal election . · So I hope Madam Speaker that when this Committee convenes that we will have the time and the opportunity to examine many of the sections in our Act and that we will have this op portunity at this session, I hope , of doing a thorough overhaul job on our Act and on many of our election procedures.

MR. GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to the remarks made by the Leader of the NDP and the remarks made by the Member for Wellingt on. I'm frankly astonished that in view of the charges made by the Member for Wellington that the government has seen fit to vote against the amendment brought forward by the Member for Sel kirk. They have virtually said they are condoning irregularitie s and forgeries during elec tions . The Member for Wellington who made the se charges, he also voted against the amend ment. I wonder, Madam Speaker, was he serious when he made tho se remarks?

Did he mean what he said; because the people of Manitoba are certainly going to wonder when the govern ment and that member voted entirely against investigating the se charges which he himself brought to the attention of this House. It wasn't any other member. I'm certainly surprised at the government's action in this matter and I think the people of Manitoba will be also. MADAM SPEAKER: I think I might bring to the attention of the last speaker that -- if I am right -- I don't think we can question how other people vote . MR .

GUTTORMSON: •.••• you are quite right; but I didn't question, I just said I was surprised that they did. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the . • • • MR . ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, .•• fact that we have now voted on the amendment and that the question before us is the main motion as amended. MADAM SPEAKER: The question before the House is the main motion on the proposed resolution of the Leader of the New Democratic Party. Are you ready for the question? MR.

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, if no one else wishes to speak on that, I would beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Inkster that the debate be adjourned. MR. CAMPBELL: •••• • opportunity of speaking at this stage and I will therefore move that the debate be adjourned, seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the mot ion carried. Page 1056 April 9th, 1963

MADAM SPEAK ER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable . the Member for Wellington and the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for As siniboia in amendment thereto. The Honourable Membe r for Seven Oaks. MR. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks) : 'Madam Speaker, I think that this resolution on the Order Paper was very timely and I think that any light that can be shed on this impor tant subject of smoking is certainly to the public good. I think we have a need for education in this matter to bring out the facts.

I prefer educ ation because when I think of legisla tion I also think of the penaltie s involved when you do not comply with that legisla tion . With smoking , the first smoke is usually a very sickening affair and it makes one wonder just how so many people ever become addicted to this habit of smok ing. I for one do not smoke and I do not want a halo for that fact. The reason I do not smoke is because of the influenc e of one of the coaches I had in high school and this had to do with athletic s. I think there are psychological reasons for smoking .

I think that most y.oung people smoke because it gives them a sense of belonging or a sense of recognition . Even sometimes when they gang up in gangs of which we do not approve, they are achieving recognition within their own group. I believe that this habit of smoking satisfie s a need and this need for belong ing to the group. It gives one an air of sophistication when young people can watch the man of the year flicking the ashes off the end of his ci garette and looks so dignified doing it. The need to conform; because conformity today is a big thing.

So I say is it really harmful if it is satis fying these psychological needs ? Certainly it's not harmful psychologically then. Is it more harmful than hate? Worry? In a world that's beset by stress and strain and in a world that threatens to commit suicide , are we being too sensiti ve about this opiate of tension? Young people are not worried about cancer nor death nor accidents. They're young people ; they're bubbling over with enthusiasm for life and it's pretty hard to frighten them about this business of smoking. I find, Madam Speaker, that the ideals of youth are high -- nearly always high.

They'll usually follow a good example. lViore young people will refrain from smoking because of Whipper Billy Watson and because, of fine young athletes like my friend from As siniboia than for almost any other reason. I mentioned my ow� case where our coach said that if we were going to run the quarter mile a little faster, he'd probably advise you not to smoke and that made an impression on me. I think that these heroes of youth are making more impression than the sophistication of Bqb Goulet on tele vision. Think of prohibitions in the States.

I think when you tell people that they just can't do something, I think that's a challenge , especially to young people full of energy. I think we have to give Le kids the facts early in li fe, by example , by not frightening them to death, because you know what happens when you get a medical encyclopedia early in life . You look at all the horror pictures and I think. that's not too heal thy. I think that parents too, must accept more responsibility . If you can't get people to lead you by example , I don't think there's any use in trying prohibition.

Many of the children see their grandfather live to 80 or more, and · he's still hale and hearty and I suppose this has an eff ect on them too. I think it's too bad, Madam Speaker, that it has taken the medical profession so long to recognize this busin ess of cancer because in 1915 a Japanese pathologist by the name of Yamagiwa at Tokyo's Imperial Unliversity discovered the relationship between the coal tar products and cancer. This Japanese wanted to find out the occupational group in the world that had the highest rate of cancer in the world and he found it among the chimney sweeps of Great Britain.

I don •t want to bore the House with a long description of his work but it impressed me so much that when the Manitoba Cancer Relief and Research Institute came to our plant to find out what the average layman knew and what his phobias were about cancer, they asked me to se nd out among my staff for ei ght men of different racial origins to find out just what they believe in, and they said to me, "while they're getting these men, we'll start with you.

" Well I asked them some questions because I was intensely interested about the work of this Japanese and they were amazed to find out that I had read this , and I read it in one of the magazines many years ago. This Japanese found out that when he took rats and irritated various parts of their body with the coal tar product of chimney soot and by depriving them of the Vitamin B1, that he was able to produce cancers almost at will. It will take another ten years , April 9th, 1963 Page 1057

(Mr. Wright, cont'd) ••• Madam Speaker, to find out the relationship between the Vitamin Bl : and the irritation of coal tar products . However , I did receive a very nice letter dated Febr uary 17th, 1949, from the Manitoba Cancer and Relief Research Institute signed by Dr. Friesen, a letter which I will always cherish because it did point out that in the world today there is a race between the people who are studying this insidious disease and there may be some relat ionship between the diets of people and the Vitamin Bl may yet be found to play an important part.

I often wonder why, in this modern age, why science hasn't come up with a sort of harmless cigarette, one that would satisfy the need to conform and the need to have this look of sophistication; or is this too much for modern science? When we were younger, I know we used to take the bark off the cedar and smoke it and we thought we were pretty big, I can assure you, but I don't think that I suffered very much harmful effects from my experiences with the cedar bark.

Adve;rtising I think, Madam Speaker, is all right, providing it's truthful and providing it's not too sensational -- and providing it gives both sides of the question. I'm more concerned about the young people than I am the adults. If the old-timer gets any satisfaction out of his pipe , I would be the last one to deny him that comfort, but I am concerned because I don't think there's any doubt now about the relationship of lung cancer to cigarette smoking.

There is , as I've said before , Madam Speaker, this question of the psychological approach because they say that lonely people tend to overeat and I think that perhaps people under stress are more apt to use this medium of relieving their tensions . I think we ne.ed to know more about why we do the things we do. I think then we'll be able to live e:ven more happier lives than we do at the present time. Iw as impressed, Madam Speaker, by the presentation of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, but I would like to have seen him make some reference to advertising.

Therefore I propose, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, that the resolution be further amended by inserting the numeral "(1)" after the word "Resolved" in the first line of the last paragraph, and further, by adding the numeral "(2)" and the following after the word ''smoking" in the last line thereof: "That this House request the government to consider the advisability of asking the Federal Government to bring in a measure to regulate the nature of cigarette advertising with the purpose of making it more factual and to divert it from being aimed at the youthful non-smoker.

Madam Speaker presented the motion. · MR . McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I had intended to make a brief comment or two about this. In fact I'm a little -- perhaps not too certain of the situation in view of the amendment which has been proposed by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. I wanted to say something about the amendment which had been.proposed by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia and I'm not too certain at the moment whether or not my doing so would be out of order at this time. MR.

PAULLEY: I don't think it would be , Madam Speaker, because I don't think that the amendment -- the amendment to the amendment still includes the proposition of the amendment, so I think it would be in order. MADAM SPEAKER: We haven't put the question on the amendment as yet. MR. McLEAN: Fine. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: It has been drawn to my attention that the sub-amendment here is on the main motion rather than on the amendment.

Probably until I could have a further look at it , I would like to take it under consideration and the Honourable the Minister of Education is in order to speak on the amendment. MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I don't t}$k that would be quite correct. The propos ition that Madam SPeaker is taking under advisement, it would have to stand. MADAM SPEAKER: •••••••• received this and it's under advisement so then it is not in order to •••• MR. EVANS: The item now stands on the Order Paper. The matter be allowed to stand. MADAM SPEAKER: The matter be allowed to stand on the Order Paper. -- Agreed. MR .

PAULLEY: ••• .••• the amendment to the amendment. MADAM SPEAKER: Yes. The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Page 1058 April 9th, 1963

(Madam Speaker, cont' d). • • • Gladstone. · ·The Honourable the Member for Brandon. MR. R.O . LISSAMAN (Brandon): Madam Speaker, it is not my intention to make any lengthy speec.h on this matter. The reason for my adjourning the debate was that, at the time, I had a great deal of sympathy with the main wish which the resolution that the Honourable Member for Gladstone proposed.

It had a certain amount of appeal to me because I think every member of this House will agree that the way the reports which are required by legislation to be tabled in this House accumulate on our desks within a few short days, would give any member a real problem in trying to study and peruse them most carefully. As letters which are written carefully or documents of various kinds, these reports have been carefully prepared and need careful study.

It was with that thought in mind, Madam Speaker, that I took the trouble to take the list of these reports as required by legislation -- there are some 60 in all -- and find out the year endings of the various departments and when the reports would be necessary, and I find that almost all of the reports made, the years ends in March 31st, but about 20 are at subsequent dates. This means , of course, that most of the reports then are probably a year old by the time we get them and it would be certainly an advantage to the members to have their reports more closely following their issuing and printing.

With that in mind, I approached the various members and departments and they more or less agreed and gave me a commitment that these branch reports would be mailed to members as shortly after they became available and printed, and of course this would not be going contrary to any statutory regulations because they could still be tabled in the House at the normal time.

However; the second part of the resolution, Madam SPeaker, I found myself wondering as to the wisdom of it: "And be it further resolved that all departments, boards, commissions , follow the practice of these departme.its , boards, commissions which now furnish progress reports covering the calendar year." Well, Madam SPeaker, my own common sense tells me that this would not be wise; you'd simply have a proliferation of reports being expected from various departments.

I find that while I will vote against the resolution I'm much in favour and sympathy with the first part and have received the commitment of the various Ministers that these reports will be mailed, complying with statutory regulations, shortly after they are printed and available. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam SPeaker , I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. George, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honou.mble the Member for Assiniboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker, 1 beg to move,. seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie:

Whereas there is a high accident rate amongst our young , our new drivers; and

whereas it is evident this is partly due to lack of knowledge of highway safety rules; therefore

be it resolved that the government consider the advisability of highway safety education being projected into high schools on a voluntary basis as an ex tra curricular activity by television and instruction program. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . McLEAN: Madam Speaker, if I may, with your permission and leave of the House , make a comment.

I believe that in the estimates of the Honourable the Minister of Utilities, provision is made for the type of thing that is asked for by this resolution; namely, a system of driver education to be operated through the schools and in some respects will fit in with what is suggested in this resolution. I would like to suggest that it might be considered advisable under the circumstances if this resolution were withdrawn and the matter discussed and debated on the estimates of the Minister of Public Utilities. MR .

PATRICK: Madam Speaker, I would.like to ask the Honourable Minister of ·Education if the one in the estimates is dealing specifically with driver training, because the thing I have in mind here is not just driving instruction because I feel that a lot of our young drivers today are quite capable of handling an automobile, probably just as well as we can or maybe better, because their reflexes are probably faster than ours.

But the thing that I'm concerned about is, where it comes to highway safety and regulations, I don't think they have the respect for the highway safety and the regulations and rules as the older people have and this is primarily why April 9th, 1963 Page 1059

(Mr. Patrick, cont'd) •••• I brought this resolution in. I understand that many provinces and -� jurisdictions have programs similar to this one. I don't think-- for instance, a lot of pro vinces have tried various programs and the only one that produced any significant results ••••• .MADAM SPEAKER: Please, I think that if you have a question, if you make it direct to the Honourable the Minister. 1\fR, PATRICK: Well, Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Honourable Minister, will this deal with highway safety, rules and regulations,. or the ones in the estimates? 1\fR.

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, that is my understanding. I would say from what I know of it that it deals with highway safety education through the medium of high schools on a volun tary basis, as an extra-curricular activity by an instruction program. I do not believe they have in mind anything with respect to television. 1\fR. M.N . HRYHORCZUK, Q.C. (Ethelbert Plains): Madam Speaker, on a point of Order, would it not be best if we allowed the motion to stand until we see whatc the government has in mind?

If it falls foursquare with whatever it is they have in mind then it can be with drawn,. because if we wait until the time the program is presented, and the motion is withdrawn it will be too late to introduce it. 1\fR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, may I suggest that there is a precedent for this being done in a resolution, I believe, that was originally proposed by the Honourable Member for Selkirk last year.

There was a question as to whether or not the content of the Speech from the Throne at that time was in conflict or agreement with the honourable member's resolution and it was held on the Order Paper until the government had made a statement of policy rather than being withdrawn. · 1\fR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker , I didn't raise this with any intention of starting a pro cedural debate. I just wanted the honourable member to know that on the estimates of the Minister of Public Utilities this subject is dealt with. Now it's quite immaterial how we deal with it.now. 1\fR.

CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, I gather that what the Honourable the Minister of Education is saying is that he has no objection to the Honourable Member for Assiniboia pro ceeding, and wouldn't that be the better way? MR. EVANS: A �ggestion has been made from that side of the House that the matter be allowed to stand on the Order Paper until the matter is dealt with at estimate time, and that procedure I think would be satisfactory to this side of the House • .MADAM SPEAKER: Resolution stand. Proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks. 1\fR.

WRIGHT: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Logan:

Whereas good air transportation is becoming a progressively more important element in economic development;. and

whereas the Committee on Manitoba's Economic Future has re commended a permanent provincial aviation council to review adequacy of service require ments; and

whereas adequate medical attention to care for severely injured and critically ill persons is available mainly in Winnipeg; and

whereas present policy favours centralizirig hospital facilities in the larger cities ; and

whereas it is often desirable and necessary to move severely injured and critically ill persons as expertly and speedily as possible to those larger centres; therefore

be it resolved that in the opinion of this House, the: . Government of Manitoba should give consideration to the advisability of establishing a government owned air ambulance service. Madam Speaker presented the motion. 1\fR. WRIGHT: Madam Speaker , my reason for resubmitting this resolution at this time is that I was encouraged th other day by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface . As I had pointed out to the House, he had seen fit to oppose my motion two or three years ago but he gave me every indication that if I had submitted this resolution again that I mi ght get his su pport.

I had hoped that the Minister of Health would get to his feet and suggest, similar to the Minister of Education, that the government had something in mind along these lines, but he did not do so. I think that there is tremendous interest now and a tremendous investment in the north. This in itself would make it necessary for us to take another look at this question of air ambul ance service. The last time I introduced this resolution I had included the ambulance service on land too, but despite the still present confusion in regard to ambulance service in the Metro Page 1060 April 9th, 1963

(Mr. Wright, cont'd) ••• area, I have eliminated it with the hope that I may receive a little more consideration this time. · There is tremendous investment in the north, as I said before , and especi ally among our Indian and Metis population. We have the mining interests getting to the north and developing our natural resources , but there is this question of the human element. Today, Madam Speaker, just after lunch I heard .sirens from all over Winnipeg and they congregated in front of the Great West Life Building.

I looked out the window and I would estimate , conservatively, at least a half a million dollars worth of equipment responded to what appeared to be a f:ilse alarm. I was much impressed with how much we do for the protection of property, but how little we really do when it comes to people and their needs in time of emergency. I realize, too , in presenting this resolution, that much good work is done in the north espec ially with regard to the Manitoba Government Air Service.

The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources told us about that and I do not want to take away from the good work that they do there. The good work, too, of the RCAF and of private planes in taking out people who are severely injured and who are critica lly ill. But Manitoba is an area of very remote areas and it's difficult to get people in and out of these backwoods places , as we might say. 'the cost in Saskatchewan for the operation of the Air Ambulance Service there -- they operate six properly equipped planes - the cost per year is just slightly over $20 0, 000 . 00 .

Last year they spent $199 ,0 00; this year it's a little increased -- $209 ,00 0.0 0. Madam Speaker, when I think of the park across the street on which we are going to spend $700, 000 and I agree with it, I think it's a wonderful thing to have that green space there, but when I measure that up against the needs we have for this emergency service in the north, I often wonder if we really are doing enough for people and for the very human needs in this vast province of Manitoba. In Saskatchewan, they have had this ambulance service there for many years.

I don't know exactly so I won't try to guess, and it has been a wonderful thing. Pianes have been able to come in, .even at night with the aid of straw piles that have been burning, to remove people who have been critica lly ill. It only needs a call from a doctor or a clergyman, a· mounted policeman or other responsible persons to bring this ambulance service into these remote areas. The cost was $25.00; I believe it has been increased to $35.0 0, I'm not sure about that, but it's an emergency service that is much appreciated there.

This year they have added a new type of plane, and this is what I want to mention here . I don't want to speak at length on this because I have submitted this bef ore, but I do want to say that the planes that res pond from our Department of Mines and Resources here are not the type of plane -- they •re not properly equipped� These planes are designed and they're designed to land at speeds as low as 30 miles an hour. An aircraft that becomes airborne in 300 to 400 feet under the worst conditions has been acquired by the Air Ambulance Service in Sl.skatchewan.

I remember meeting a young chap who was flying for this service and how thrilled he was about the type of work that they are doing there; the way they are trained in moving people who are critica lly ill , which is in itself quite a thing. I understand, too, that in the remote areas of Australia they have a Flying Doctor Service. This -- I think we've even seen this on television, but it's a fact, and this is a service for the people. This is a service that is satisfying human needs.

On my recent trip to the north with the Premier and his party, I was very amazed at the vast ness -- the barrenness of the north and the isolation that must be there for many many people, and what a wo.nderful thing it would be to know that in times of sudden illness and emergencies that a properly equipped government run ambulance service would be at the disposal of people that are there. Now this House may vote against this resolution, Madam Speaker, but I make this appeal, that they cannot ignore it.

It's only a matter of time until we have to consider this type of service and the reason for having to do this is because we cannot keep depending on the good work of the volunteer groups who are removing people so critically ill, from our northern area especially. I think that there is a need for the proper type of equipment.

Surely if we can have ladder trucks that are kept up-to-date and special design for fighting fires which respond to such things as false alarms, surely it's time we began to look at our remote areas and to see whether or not we couldn't do something along the lines that they are doing in our sister province to the west. This isn't something that's done for show; this is a vital service. I April 9th, 1963 Page 1061

(Mr. Wright, cont'd) •• •• suggest, Madam Speaker, that this government should soon consider this matter. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Health) (Gimli): I beg to move , seconded by the Minister of Mines and Resources, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. George. MR. EVANS: Madam Speaker, the question was not put on the motion to adjourn. On the motion to adjourn the debate , I wonder if the question was not put.

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion" carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. George. MR. GUTTORMSON: I beg the indulgence of the members of this House to have this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. Second reading of Bill No . 42. The Honourable Member for S�. George. Mr. Guttormson presented Bill No. 42,

an Act to incorporate The Elizabeth M. Crowe Memorial Hospital, for second reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, The Elizabeth M. Crowe Memorial Hospital has for some years been operated in the rural municipality of Eriksdale by an unincorporated charitable organization.

The purpose of this Bill is to create a corporation composed of a number of persons in the area to take over and continue the work curr ently_ carried on by the institution to provide hospital care and treatment and to render such charitable services in respect of the hospital as may be deemed advisable by the Board. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . SAUL CHERNIACK (St. John's): May I address a question to the mover? There are two items which occurred to me in reading the Bill.

One is, remembering the Bill which had been presented to us as Bill No . 38 , there was some discussion about tbe fact that that Bill contained a reference to the hospital not restricting admission of patients for reasons only of race , creed or colour. There's no such provision in this Bill. I am wondering if that was considered. Secondly, re ading this Bill would seem to indicate, if I'm right, that it is pro posed that this be a self-perpetuating board. There seems no provision for membership to the board except that which is appointed, I believe, by the present members of the board.

I'm wondering whether the advisability has been considered of making it possi ble for members of that community to become members of the organization of the hospital so that they could then be eligible for election or appointment to the board rather than the continued self-perpetuation. MR. EVANS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I would like to suggest to the hon ourable member that on second reading it's the principle of the Bill that is being debated.

An opportunity is afforded at the committee stage to discuss details and I am sure my honourable friend will have an ample opportunity at that point if he cares to raise anything. I hadn't wanted to interrupt, but I think it would be generally agreed that that's the appropriate stage for questions of this kind. MR . CHERNIACK: I wish that the Honourable Minister had interrupted because I did think I was in order and I do think I am discussing principles of the Bill. I'm quite prepared to discuss it again at another opportunity, but I did think and do think that I was in order - but I said it anyway. MR .

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, on the point raised, my honourable friend from St. John's has now said he's said it anyway, but I don't see any way in which my"honourable friend was out of order . He was speaking of the principle of the Bill as to the exclusion of a para"" graph making the hospital available to everybody, and also the question of subsequent elections of directors. MR . LAURENT DESJARDINS (St.Bo niface): Madam Speaker, on a point of order , I think that the honourable member was out of order, because he asked to ask a question and then he proceeded to make a speech.

I think in that, that he was out of order. MADAM SPEAKER: I believe that the Honourable Member from St. John's -- if he hadn't Page 1062 April 9th, 1963 I

(Madam Speaker , cont'd) •• �. spoken on the Bill, he was entitled to speak on it -- but I believe he asked a question there and, as that, it should be a question. I believe you were out of order to deliberate on it afte r. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 49. The Honourable the Member for River Heights. MR , MAITLAND STEINKOPF (River Heights) presented Bill No. 65,

an Act respecting · C .A. C. Realty Limited, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable the Member for River Heights , l!econded by the Honourable the Member for Souris-Lansdowne, that Bill No. 65,

an Act respecting C. A.C. Realty Limited, be now read a second time. We are revecsing the order here. MR . HRYHORCZUK: Are we dealing with Bill No� 65 or Bill No . 49 ? MADAM SPEAKER: We were dealing with the Bill No. 49 . I believe the honourable member read the wrong one. MR . STEINKOPF: Would you like to have Bill No. 49 first ? MR . ROBLIN: I think that we can agree to deal with 65, seeing it has already been moved, and then we'll go back to 49 . MADAM SPEAKER: ·Agreed to go ahead with No. 65 ? -- Agreed. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR .

STEINKOPF: This is a request to license the company to do business in Manitoba. C. A.C. Realty is an affiliate of a: large concern, having assets in excess of $350 million. They are licensed to do business in all provinces in Canada with the exception of Manitoba, Newfound l"and and Prince Edward Island, and it is in the secondary financing field that they wish to do business iri Manitoba. MR.

PAULLEY: I rise to raise objections to the passing of this Bill and intend to vote against it on second reading, on the principle that I think that the Province of Manitoba, insofar as loan companies is concerned, it just seems to me to be a wide-open field and that we have suff icient in our province at the present time, therefore I will vote against this Bill. MR . CHERNIACK: Madam Speaker , I'll try again, this time to ask a question of the mover of the motion, if I may. MR . ROBLIN: I'm afraid that would be out of order. MR . CHERNIACK: All right, then may I address the Speaker.

Madam Speaker , I heard the mover of the motion say "that the purpose of this Bill was to license to company to do bus iness in Manitoba. " I'm wondering if he is correct in that statement, that it is to license, or if it is to enable it to obtain a licence . The reason I raise it at this point is that I would like to be assured that there will be compliance with the requirements of our Companies Act regarding the licensing rather than be left with the impression that the passing of this Act will in itself enable or entitle this company to proceed. MR.

STEINKOPF·: Madam Speaker, the intent is that the company •• ••• MR . ROBLIN: ••••• that if my honourable friend speaks, no one else may speak, in case there are others who wish to take part. MR . STEINKOPF: The intent is that the compliance with the Companies Act be obtained, and this will give the company authority to carry on business in Manitoba through this Act. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . STEINKOPF presented Bill No. 49 ,

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate the Garment Manufactur ers and Employees Fund, for second reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . STEINKOPF: Madam Speaker , the purpose of this Bill is to amend the original Act which was passed in 1947 . The original Act set -gp a statutory corporation to administer the sickness and death benefits being provided under the employer-employee agreement in the union ized sportswear industry: The Act is now being amended to eliminate contributions by employ ees; and also, to widen its scope to include a pension benefit plan and to provide for the elimin ation of a controversial

section which stipulates that in the event of a disagreement the fund be dissolved. The name of the Act, too, is to be chaD.ged and will be known in the future as "The Garment Manufact urers and Employees Health, Welfare and Pension Fund. " It would be inter esting to know that during the past 15 years, $423 ,0 00 in benefits have been paid out under this April 9th, 1963 Page 1063

(Mr. Steinkopf, cont'd) •••• Act -- the former Act -- and that there is now a sum of some - $440 ,0 00 in the Treasury. In 1947 , there were 945 union employees covered by the plan and in 1963 there are 1,6 30 employees. The average claim under the fund during 1962 was $120.00 Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR . JAMES COW AN, Q.C. (Winnipeg Centre) presented Bill No. 66,

an Act respecting Niagara Mortgage & Loan Company, Limited, for second reading. -Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 13 . The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR . FRED T. KLYM (Springfield) presented Bill No. 13 ,

an Act to amend

an Act to erect the Village of Beausejour in a Town Corporation, for second reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . KLYM : This Bill, Madam Speaker, is

an Act amending by statute the corporate limits of the Town of Beausejour and the Rural Municipality of Brokenhead. By this bill, they propose to change the boundary of the Town of Beausejour and its adjoining corporation, the Rural Municipality of Brokenhead, in two ways. Firstly, by removing an area which was originally in the Town of Beausejour and which in 1912 was , by Order-in-Council of the Lieutenant-Governor, purported to be added to the area of the Rural Municipality of Broken head.

Doubt has arisen as to the legality of the Order-in-Co uncil ;md by this Act they propose to give validity to this Order-in-Council and to all things done for the purpose of carrying the Order-in-Co uncil_ into effect. Secondly, by removing an area of approximately 16 acres from the Rural Municipality of Brokenhead and incorporating the area within the corporate limits of the Town of Beausejour. It is further provided that no settlement as to assets and liabilities shall be made by the two municipal corporations as a result of the alteration of tli.e boundary.

The :councils of the Town of Beausejour and the Rural Municipality of Brokenhead are both agreeable to the changes and have passed resolutions approving the contents of the Bill. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture and Conservation, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable_ Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR . CHAffiMAN: Department VI, Item 10 . MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might have the Committee's indulgence to bring up a matter which is really not before us, but it has to do with our business.

I mentioned in an unofficial way to the leaders of the other parties this morning the suggestion that we might consider meeting Wednesday evening, as members know we will be off on Friday of this week as it is Good Friday. We have lost a considerable amount of time for a good sufficient reason, but it seemed to me that it would be worth considering sitting Wednesday night in order to carry on the business as expeditiously as possible.

I think that if we did that, we could then contemplate rising at 11:00 o' clock for this week and not be subject to the necessity of sitting beyond that hour and, at the same time, I think get a reasonable amount of work done. I understand from the Leader of the New Democratic Party that that suggestion is acceptable in that quarter. I wonder if others would like to make a comment on it. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr . Chairman, the members of our group are quite prepared to go along with the suggestion made by the First Minister in this regard. MR . FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, does it still mean that we'll be sitting on Thursday night? MR . ROBLIN: ••••••• Mr. Chairman, then I'll take it as understood that we will meet Wednesday night and Wednesday will be government business all day as Thursday is , and I thank the members of the Committee for their agreeing to the proposal. MR . CHAmMAN: Department VI, Item 10 . MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, I believe the other day when we ended here I was about io ask the Minister some questions about the crop insurance arrangements.

Now last fa:ll the Minister was in Ottawa and made some specific proposals in the matter of a crop insurance Page 1064 April 9th, 1963 • I

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) •••• formula. I want to check whether these are exactly the requests of the Minister: that the Federal Government would pay 85 percent -- or that is underwrite 85 percent of the losses in any one year and the balance of 15 percent to be the provincial resp onsibility; and also, if he can give us in short the details of exactly what his proposal is in this regard. HON.

GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-lberville): As you know, the present federal legislation provides that any indemnities shall first be paid out of. the premiums paid and any reserve that exists , and that the province, in case of loss, shall pay the first $200 ,0 00 -- it is a deductible clause -- and then that any losses beyond that the Federal Oovernment will lend the prov·ince 75 percent. · The Province of Manitoba has argued that in the early stages of crop insurance a province must have a great deal of financial resources behind it to contemplate any large scale losses to be financed on this basis, and we have suggested -- recommended that a scheme of re insurance with the Federal Government should be made possible whereby we would finance all the losses possible out of premiums and any reserves that existed, and that anything beyond that deductible clause should be shared at 15 percent by the province and 85 percent by the Federal Government.

This may seem at first glance to be a mi ghty favourable kind of a pro posal to the Provincial Government, but when you analyze it in the light of the last 35 years' experience here in Western Canada, you will find that it's about a 50-50 deal, and that the Federal Government would only enter into or share in the losses on a small proportion of the years. They would only be in volved in those years when we have experienced a loss of dis astrous proportions.

Now I'm sorry but I didn't bring my material and I'm only talking off tlle top of my head here , but I believe that about 30 percent of the years -- if we were to antic ipate having the same experience in the next 35 years as in the last, only in 30 percent of the years would the Federal Government be called upon to make any contribution. The rest of the time the province, through its premiums, reserves and taking the responsibility for the initial $200, 000, would be called upon to finance any losses that occurred.

In return for this we would pay a premium to the Federal Government annually, regardless of experience, calculated to repay over a 35-year period any moneys which would be advanced to the province in these years of disastrous crop loss. Our proposal also provided for a review every few years of the premiums paid by the province to the Federal Government, so that their soundness from an actuarial point of view could be brought up-to-date . This in a nutshell is the proposal that we have made. MR. MOLGAT: Mr .

Chairman, in other words , the ann ual payment that the province would make to Ottawa should, over a 35- year period, cover any losses that Ottawa should incur. What my honourable friend is asking really, was simply underwriting from Ottawa and not actually a greater contribution. Was there any discussion about the interest payment or was this to be all considered as on a straight capital basis?

That is, whatever premiums Manitoba paid to Ottawa would accrue no interest at Ottawa and, similarly, any large payments made by Ottawa to us which might involve actually a deficit for a period of time until the pre-. miums caught up, also without interest. MR. HUTTON : We were asking Ottawa to share the risk, and if they are going to share the risk they can hardly take calculations of interest into consideration for a very good reason, that it all depends upon the incidence of the years of your losses. Should your losses take place in the latter part of your 35- year period, you would have a :huge surplus.

If your losses took place at the outset of your program, you could incur quite a substantial deficit. MR •. MOLGAT : That was my point, Mr . Chairman, there was no interest to be paid by one party to the other however, regardless of which way it went. Fine. Manitoba accepted as well on its own account to pay the first $200 ,0 00 over and above reserves from the past and as well current income. Is that.right? Was there any request from the Federal Government for greater participation in the administration or participation in the premium costs? MR. HUTTON: No. MR.

MOLGAT : I wonder if the Minister could report to us the reaction of the Federal Government to his approach. Were they prepared to accept this proposal or were they not? And was it correct that this was made in November ? MR� HUTTON: The proposal was made publicly at the Agricultural Outlook Conference . April 9th, 1963 Page 1065

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) ••••• in an effo rt to rally the farm people across Ca nada behind this pro posal. To put it very bluntly -- to put some pressure on. We felt that with the press inf ormed about this proposill and with the provinces -- if we could get the majority of the provinces to support us -- that this would help us to get an. early decision. One of the problems that we fa ced was that Saskatchewan and Manitoba had made this proposal -- M anitoba made the pro posal; Saskatchewan seconded our proposal.

As a matter of fact, Saskatchewan and Manitoba worked together in making sure that we had proposals that were consistent and for that reason more acceptable to the Federal Government. But I think we all recognize that any proposal that goes before the Federal Government has to have some national application. It can't be made by one province or by a single region, and especially crop insurance which has national application, we couldn •t have just one province or two provinces support this proposal and hope to get early action on it.

So at the Outlook Confe rence last fall we laid our proposal before the provinces; we familia rized the press with it in an attempt to recruit support fo r it and, in turn, to put pressure on the government to act. I might say that crop insurance has not gotten the endorsation in other provinces that it has received in Manitoba and, as a result, I think we're suffe ring a little bit from this. Actually, the proposal was first put before the Federal Government some two years ago and it culminated in this public proposal in Ottawa last November. MR.

MOLGAT: Was it the same proposal that was put forward two years ago as the one that was made public in November? MR . HUTTON: Yes. MR . MOLGAT: Did the Federal Government indicate then in November, or previously to that, that they would be prepared to accept this proposal? Could the Minister outline to the Committee what their reaction was to this proposal and when they would likely make a decision? MR . HUTTON: They were interested but, as I said, there didn't seem to be the strong support across Canada at that time.

Since that time Alberta has made some move to interest their fa rmers in it, and I think that if we could even get the prairie region to push crop insur ance that there would be a great deal better chance of getting action at the federal level and I say that regardless of who is sitting down there. MR. MOLGAT : I quite agree with the Minister that if we !)an get all the provinces together that ther.e's a much better chance. I take it then that on the 20th.of November at this confe rence that the Federal Government was not too receptive to the particular plan proposed by Manitoba? Is that correct? MR .

HUTTON:· The Federal Minister of Agriculture was very receptive and I can say I think that the Federal Department of Agriculture, having been apprised of our arguments, can raise not too much objection to our proposal, but I think the success of getting this proposal accepted hinges to some extent upon getting a wider acceptance of the principle of crop insurance across Canada. · MR . MOLGAT : Mr.

Chairman, in the light of what the Minister tells us, his leader had some rather interesting things to say some ten days after this; because on the 6th of December the Premier is reported as speaking at a meeting at that time saying that he had been in touch with Ottawa on arrangements for a complete crop insurance scheme for Manitoba, and the quote marks then are: "And I am very optimistic , indeed, about the successful outcome of these negotiations." So this doesn't quite go along with what the Minister says though about the acceptance by Ottawa, and certainly since that time the provincial election having been over, we have seen no furthe r acceptance from ottawa to my honourable frien d's proposal.

I wonder if he could tell us •• •••• MR. ROBLIN: May I say to my honourable friend that I'm not quite so optimistic now. MR . MOLGAT: Well your optimism was certainly very sudden before the provincial election and I would suggest, from what the Minister told us this afterno on, it was completely unfounded and that the statement made at that time was not an accurate statement. MR . RO BLIN: Of course my honourable friend knows that he shouldn't say things like that. It was an accurate statement and reflected my fe eling then and reflected my feeling up until last night. MR .

MOLGAT: Your optimism then after two years of efforts as the Minister of Agri culture admitted this afte rnoon, and still no decision, is certainly an indication of a·well founded optimism. Page 1066 April 9th,-1963 I

MR . ROBLIN: Well, considering the fact that you fought two election caln.paigns opposed to the idea, I think that you'd better accept our progress as pretty good. MR . MOLGAT: At least we told you from the begjmling, from the very start when you first mentioned it, not knowing what you were talking about, when you tried to pretend to the people of Manitoba that you could institute a crop insurance plan in Manitoba strictly on Mani toba-ts finances, and this was a statement you made to the people of Manitoba.

You had no license whatever to make that statement because your Minister is now prepared to admit, and has a!iroitted for the past couple of years that it's impossible to do on a straigb,t Manitoba basis, that it can only be done ••• � •• MR . ROBLIN: ••••••• most inaccurate. We have a crop insurance scheme in Manitoba right now and furthermore it will in time cover the whole province . MR. MOLGAT: Who has the floor ? Who has the floor , Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, the situation is very clear in the field of crop insurance . There is not crop insurance in Manitoba now.

There is purely some test areas in Manitoba and that is not what this government promised before the election in 1$8 , or the election in 1959. Those are facts and those are facts on the record -- (Interjection) -- Well my honourable friend is the one who brought this up and I'm quite prepared to make the record clear once again on this subject. That is the si_tuat ion. He promised crop insurance across the province, not test areas. All we've had since then, Mr. Chairman, is test areas.

We said to the government at that time, "There' s only one way that you can get crop insurance in Manitoba· across-the-board and that's with federal part icipation." I'm in complete agreement with my honourable friend that a crop insurance scheme in Manitoba should be operated by Manitoba; managed by Manitoba; because our experience in this. province is different from the experience in Saskatchewan in particular . So I'm in full agreement with the management here, but the only way it can be done is with proper federal backing. My honourable friends were not prepared to admit that before the election.

They pretended exactly the reverse, but subsequently the Minister of Agriculture started to admit it -- oh, very reluctantly, true -- but bit by bit he finally came across the point of view and my honourable friend now states very definitely that unless there is federal backing he is not pre pared and cannot extend crop insurance across the province. Those are exactly his statements Mr. Chairman, and I'll be quite prepared to get the clippings of exactly what my honourable friend has said. Those were his statements; those are accurate reflections.

I might add that it is a true statement because he's been dragging back and holding back ever since he started his test areas , trying to get money out of the Federal Government. MR. CHAIRMAN: I call it 5:30 and leave the Chair until 8 o'clock. April 9th, 1963 Page 1067

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-1-43
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 1st hansardpdf 43.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e18760e8aa37852ae2f23a4aec0ef85c6b0bcd4b

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