April 4,

2000 GOVERNMENT SERVICES

COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Joyce): Order, please!

We will start this as soon as possible. There are just

a few small formalities. Whoever is speaking, would you please say your name

first so we can have it on record, and we will ask everybody here to introduce

themselves.

Mr. Wiseman - if you would all introduce yourselves

around the table.

MR. WISEMAN: Ralph Wiseman, MHA, Topsail.

MR. LUSH: Tom Lush, MHA, Terra Nova.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Andersen, MHA, Torngat

Mountains.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA, Cape St. Francis.

MR. H. HODDER: Harvey Hodder, MHA, Waterford

Valley.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA, Bay of Islands.

MS THISTLE: Anna Thistle, MHA, Grand Falls-Buchans,

President of Treasury Board.

MR. FAOUR: Phonse Faour, Chairman of the Public

Service Commission.

MS DEVINE: Sheila Devine, Commissioner with the

Public Service Commission.

CHAIR: Okay, we will ask the minister for her

opening remarks.

MS THISTLE: Good morning, everybody. It is a great

day outside.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Oh, you are most welcome.

Unfortunately not all of us could make it, but maybe another time.

I would like to welcome Phonse and Sheila here this

morning, and you will be hearing from them later on.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I have had

the responsibility to report to you on the activities and the vision of the

Public Service Commission. The public service is an important part of government

process; a part such that, if it is not professional, competent, non-partisan,

and an effective tool, the process of governance would be chaotic and perhaps

impossible. The Commission is mandated by government and by the Legislature

under the Public Service Commission Act to provide effective oversight of the

merit principle in the recruitment process; deliver confidential and credible

services such as the Employee Assistance Program and employee wellness; provide

conceptual leadership and innovation in public administration.

The Commission celebrated twenty-five years of

credible service to the Province in 1999. I must say, during that time, we had

several celebrations. It was just a wonderful event.

Government has recognized the importance of the Public

Service Commission Act through a renewed thrust from government to build the

public service into a vibrant and proud workforce, the employer of choice. The

Commission has been tasked by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to preside over

public service reform and the organizational development initiative fund. For

the fiscal year 2000-2001 the Commission has received $3.6 million in requests

from departments and central agencies; however, the program itself is a $2

million program. These project requests include such areas as staff training,

development, strategic and HR planning, awards and recognition. Awards and

recognition; that is something that is very necessary to recognize the wonderful

people who work for government. Many of them have been here a long time, so that

is an important part of the Public Service Commission mandate.

The respectful workplace and wellness performance

enhancement and communications - last year the Public Service Commission

received funding to recruit five university graduates. I think you all remember

they were here in the gallery a couple of weeks ago. They are from

post-secondary institutions within the Province and Labrador. This program has

been introduced as part of the broader initiative aimed at the development of

the public service. The Graduate Recruitment Program has now been recognized as

an ongoing program of the provincial government, intended to complement the

current organization and bring into the public service young graduates who will

be among the leaders of the future. The first five recruits began their

internship in various assignments throughout government during the month of

March, and fifteen additional graduates will be hired in this current fiscal

year.

I had the opportunity to have lunch with the first

five graduates, and these people were chosen out of 500. What a wonderful lunch

we had. There was so much energy in the room and so much excitement at the

prospects of working for government and the challenges that lay before them. It

was really an exhilarating time.

Communication has and continues to be one of the

public service's greatest challenges. The Commission has facilitated the

establishment of two forums that, when linked, will provide a network for

greater communication and understanding of each other in the structure of the

public service. Regional councils have been established in each of the regions

outside the Avalon, including Eastern, Western, Central and Labrador. These

councils are comprised of senior representatives of all departments and agencies

resident in the four regions. They have come together on a regular basis to

discuss matters of mutual interest. As well, an annual senior management

development conference has been established where all senior managers, deputy

ministers, assistant deputy ministers and directors come together to focus on

matters of mutual concern.

The Deputy Minister's Forum, which meets weekly, has

existed since 1996. It is the intention that these three forums be linked to

establish a government-wide communication network. The Commission has

facilitated a significant move towards the elimination of the backlog of

classification appeals for bargaining unit positions. Following the appointment

of new members to the appeal board, the board has been meeting regularly, making

regional visits and dealing with the current appeals as well as the backlog.

That was a problem, but this has been cleared up a great deal now in the past

year or so. It is estimated that by fall the backlog will be eliminated.

The Commission has, in part, been focusing inwardly to

re-establish its credibility through the development of a strategic plan that

outlines the focus and structure of the Commission of the foreseeable future. A

restructuring plan has been developed which will return focus and understanding

of roles and responsibilities and facilitate the strengthening of the Commission

mandate delivery.

The Commission has and continues to bring force and

effect to its mandate. With the delegation of staffing to departments, the role

of the Commission has changed significantly. It is our role to ensure that the

hiring into the public service is guided by the merit principle. It is the

intention of the Commission to provide thorough and continuous audit of the

staffing actions by departments. This will be done by developing, in

consultation with deputy ministers, an audit program that will ensure a strong,

professional, non-partisan public service.

During the past fiscal year, a full audit of all

competitions for 602 permanent positions was undertaken by Commission Officers.

The results will be analyzed to identify areas where additional training is

required or where administrative processes need to be improved. Generally, the

results indicated that there is a high level of commitment to merit by all of

those managers who chair selection boards on behalf of the Public Service

Commission. Deputy ministers and directors of human resources have been most

cooperative in this review. Further consultations are being held with deputy

ministers in order to determine how the audit process can be improved.

The Public Service Commission is committed to ensuring

deputy minister accountability in terms of the Public Service Commission Act,

while providing executives with the flexibility to staff their departments in an

efficient and timely manner.

Over the past decade, budgetary restraints and fiscal

issues have greatly influenced the management of the public service. Since 1997

government has set out, as one of its strong agenda items, the revitalization of

the public service, programs and services that will improve both the management

of the public service and the quality of life of its employees. It is the intent

of the Commission to raise the awareness of the importance of wellness in the

workplace and encourage the sensitive management that will once again make the

public service the employer of choice. This will be done by surveying other

jurisdictions, consultations with employees, and developing programs of

response.

Before concluding, I would like to reference

suggestions made at last year's Estimates Committee meeting. As you are aware,

the Commission is mandated to provide counseling through its employee assistance

program. These counselors are generally professionals registered within their

own professional associations. As a result of discussion with the Committee, the

Public Service Committee has reviewed this issue and has determined that a

public call for external providers for both the counseling services as well as a

workshop facilitation service is required to ensure that any qualified provider

across the Province is aware of this opportunity. The public call will be issued

within the next month, and I acknowledge this suggestion by the previous

Estimates Committee.

As I said to you last year, and it is worth repeating,

the Public Service Commission has a new vision. The Commission intends to see

that the public service of Newfoundland and Labrador is on the leading edge of

human resource planning and management. A close partnership relationship between

Treasury Board and the Commission will be necessary for optimum result.

The recognition that the most important tool of

government is a strong, professional, non-partisan public service, and that it

is critical to good governance, will be evident in a renewed and refreshed

public service.

Last year, for the first time, this government

recognized public service week, an opportunity to recognize and celebrate the

contribution that public service employees make. As well, for the first time

ever, a block party event was held in all regions of the Province. I believe

many of you took

part in the one that was held out here on the parking lot of

Confederation Building. I know it was well-attended and people had a good time.

I had the opportunity to attend the one in Grand Falls-Windsor and, I tell you,

people there were so excited. It was the first time they had come together on an

informal basis like that, from all over Central Newfoundland. It does wonders to

improve the morale and let people know that they are appreciated.

Government departments, central agencies and public

service employees at all levels took time to consider the work that public

service employees do for the Province and to recognize the quality of that work.

This year, government intends to support these and similar initiatives aimed at

improving the public service and recognizing its employees. The Commission will

be innovative. The Commission will promote and facilitate. The Commission will

foster renewal in the public service, and the Commission will protect the

integrity of the staffing process in government.

It is important that you be aware that the

Commission's measure of success is restrained by the continuing status quo

budget direction; however, we believe that the Commission can make a difference

with the effect of application of available resources. Government and management

attention to what the Commission calls a soft side is key to the establishment

of a strong, professional, non-partisan public service.

These are my remarks and, of course, I would like to

pass the mike now over to Mr. Phonse Faour, Chair and CEO, to add his remarks if

he wishes. As this is a non-partisan Commission, please go ahead and direct any

questions to Phonse, myself, or Sheila.

Thank you.

MR. FAOUR: Thank you, Minister.

There is not a lot I can add to what the minister has

said. In my role as Chair of the Commission, I am committed, and the Commission

itself is a highly motivated group of people who are committed to trying to make

the public service an organization that can be the employer of choice. We are

facing a lot of challenges. Some of them arising from the past, the fiscal

pressures of the past, but some arising from things like demographic change in

the public service. We are going to have a lot of turnover of staff over the

next decade simply because - well, I don't know about you but I know I don't

age. I look around me and everybody else is aging. I think that means that soon

many of my colleagues will be retiring and we will have to replace them with

young, vibrant and energetic people who will make sure the public service can

continue to function well in serving the people of the Province.

We have to do two things, basically. One is to become

an employer of choice and attract new people into the organization, but we also

have to recognize that we have a lot of talent within the public service and we

have to develop that talent and make sure that people within the public service

can rise to become leaders of the organization into the future.

As the minister indicated, we are certainly here to

answer questions about the mandate of the Commission and we would be happy to do

so. This is an annual event for us. Last year was my first time at the Estimates

Committee and I was a little apprehensive. This year I am not as apprehensive

because I do know that you have an important task to ensure that government

expenditures are properly spent and that, as head of the Commission, I am

accountable to you for that.

Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I pass it back to you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, and Mr. Faour.

Mr. Hodder.

MR. H. HODDER: I want to thank you, Madam Minister

and Mr. Faour.

If I could go right to the Estimates, on page 63, we

note here the various headings. They number from 01. to 12. I wanted to start

with 1.1.01.01, Salaries. We note that last year there was $1,225,700 allocated

for Salaries. In actual fact there was $1,117,300 that was actually spent, but

then the Estimate for this year sees a jump by $515,700 to $1,633,000. I wanted

to ask why we had - which amounts to a significant increase - about a 25 per

cent increase in salary allocation in one year.

MS THISTLE: The difference, the variance, there in

the Budget was really - last year - delayed hiring the five new graduates.

Although we did have funding approved, we received 500 applications and it took

us a tremendous while to sort through those and actually come up with the five

that we chose. Of course, the increase in the funding for this year's Budget is

the fact that we are going to hire an additional fifteen business students under

the program, which would bring the total to twenty in all.

MR. H. HODDER: There are no permanent positions as

such? These graduate people are on for a definitive time and the money here is

solely allocated for that part of your program?

MS THISTLE: It is. The graduates who are hired

will go through a two-year training process and they will be able to have four

segments of training which will be done in different departments of government.

After that four segment training process is concluded, they will then have an

opportunity to apply for any permanent position that is offered within

government. Of course, each year from here on in we intend to hire an additional

fifteen graduates and that number could increase depending upon our fiscal

ability.

MR. H. HODDER: On the -

MR. FAOUR: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Go ahead, Mr. Faour.

MR. FAOUR: I am sorry, Mr. Hodder.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, the portion of our salary vote

which relates to the staff of the Commission was fully utilized. The variances

you see relate solely to the Graduate Recruitment Program that was instituted by

government. The minister is right. It took us a long time to process those 500

applications. I should say, the problem was finding an objective way to assess

that number when we weren't looking for specific skills. It is not like we were

hiring somebody for a specific job where an objective assessment is fairly

straightforward. In this case, we had people from all disciplines with varied

backgrounds, and the objective process took us awhile to put in place.

The fact that we didn't spend our full allotment last

year was because the students only came on late in the fiscal year. The increase

for this year relates to the increase in the program. There is anticipated in

the increase that there will be some lag in hiring, and we expect probably by

the summer to have most of the new fifteen on the job.

MR. H. HODDER: We certainly support the hiring of

the graduate group. We think it is a good thing to do. I was going to ask this

question later, but, how did you come about the rational assessment? Did you do

a future needs assessment within the various parts of the civil service? How did

you come to a decision of picking five of the 500? What rational basis did we

use for that?

MR. FAOUR: I guess we made the decision very early

that the kind of people we wanted in this program were not specialists, people

in specific skills areas. We did not want people with technical skills, or we

did not want people with very specific management skills. We wanted generalists

who had leadership abilities and leadership potential, bright people who could

take on those leadership roles in the future.

I would say we underestimated the challenge of

objectively assessing 500 people. In the end, in collaboration with the

administered a standardized test to all the applicants who were prepared to do

it. From that testing, we took the top several dozen and interviewed them by a

panel and made the selection based on that. That is basically what happened. It

took us awhile to get the process in place. Now that we have established the

process, our sense is that this year when we initiate the process fairly shortly

to hire the new people, it should go much more smoothly.

MR. H. HODDER: So there was absolutely zero

political interference with the process?

MR. FAOUR: I can say with confidence, absolutely

none.

MR. H. HODDER: I think it is important for you to

say that.

MS DEVINE: If I can just make a comment, there was

certainly a lot of interest by, I guess, all politicians in the program but it

was positive. It was in the sense of supporting the program and a lot of

interest even in where the assignments would be.

To date, the five assignments that we have for these

graduates are in St. John's. One of the areas we are very interested in looking

at is that we certainly do not assume that these future leaders should all have

their assignments in the Confederation Building. We are very interested in

looking at good learning assignments for these people outside of St. John's, in

the regions, and to learn that there is more to management of government than

working in St. John's.

MR. H. HODDER: I have some background in the

internship program that teachers would have been exposed to. We found in that,

that we needed to move teachers from various parts of the Province so that they

could get a pretty reasonable assessment of what it was like to be involved in

public service in other parts of the Province, other than the St. John's region.

I was going to ask a question as to when we anticipate that we can have people

participating in this program in other parts of Newfoundland and Labrador, other

than being located here in St. John's.

MS DEVINE: We will be going out very shortly to

ask departments to identify these potential assignments. There are certain

criteria for these assignments. They do have to be developmental, in the sense

that there will opportunities for people to learn and work with other managers

and with other levels of the organization. Certainly, we have been encouraging

deputy ministers and other CEOs to look at the regional structures and see where

they can come up with good, positive work assignments for them.

MR. H. HODDER: I have a couple of follow-up

questions again. Have each of these five graduates been assigned a specific

mentor, or have they been assigned a variety of mentors? How are these mentors

selected?

MS. DEVINE: In developing the assignments with the

central agencies and the deputies, we asked for the deputies to suggest people

who would be good mentors for these individuals. Certainly, we were looking for

people in departments who had all of the characteristics that we would be

looking for in terms of future managers and leaders of the public service. The

five mentors who have been proposed and are in place now for these five

graduates, we are very happy with them. Again, we will be going out shortly to

departments to ask for other suggestions in terms of other people who are

prepared to be mentors to these new individuals who we will be hiring.

MR. H. HODDER: Is it fair to say that the mentors

are not exclusively at the assistant deputy level, but there are very good

mentors who are not at what I would call the executive level of the departments?

How is that spread out? Is there a variety of mentoring groups?

MS. DEVINE: At this time, I think, four of the

five mentors are at the ADM level, but one is at the director level. Again, we

recognize that we need to have good mentors at all levels of the organization.

Certainly to become a mentor is, in itself, recognition. I think the minister

noted that in her comments. It is really an honor to be selected as a mentor and

to be recommended.

Again, we will be suggesting to deputies that it

doesn't necessarily have to be your senior director or ADM. We have very good

managers throughout the system.

MR. H. HODDER: Because I have always said that

some of the very best teachers in this Province never make principals,

vice-principals or department heads, but they make excellent mentors. There is a

message there that I think should apply to any level of the civil service.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I will pass to one of my

colleagues.

CHAIR: Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have just a few questions or points. With respect to

the Estimates themselves, on page 63 - and I had a quick discussion before the

hearing started this morning. There is not a lot of information there. I wonder,

is it possible that we could get a better breakdown for the next Estimates

Committee meetings for next year? Because I understand that you have three

divisions there. I am going to ask a few questions on them in a minute.

This is pretty general here, I would think, one page

for the whole Public Service Commission. Is it possible to have something

beforehand, even a day or so before next year's meeting for the Estimates, so we

can ask some more specific questions with respect to the expenditures? Does

anybody want to comment on that?

MR. FAOUR: I believe that is entirely possible. In

actual fact, in the past year we have been operating with the accounting as it

is in the Estimates book. We found that inadequate ourselves, and we have just

begun internally doing our accounting by division. It is not well-developed yet

but my expectation is that, as we go through this year, by the end of the year

we will be able to provide the information that you wish.

MR. J. BYRNE: I appreciate that. I may not even be

on the Committee next year, but it would be nice to have.

With respect to the different divisions, would someone

like to make a few comments? I understand there is the Employee Assistance

Program. You talked about wellness, and you talked about recruitment and

training, staff development and what have you. Would anybody like to make a few

more comments on that, further to what the minister has said?

MR. FAOUR: Basically, when we look at the mandate

that both the Legislature and the government have given the Commission, we come

up with three broad areas which comprise, I guess, what we call our lines of

business.

The first one arises from the Legislature and is the

staffing function which is contained in the Public Service Commission Act. The

Staffing and Compliance Division is responsible for overseeing the staffing and

recruitment of permanent positions in the public service. It is responsible for

setting the standards by which recruitments need to be made and by ensuring

compliance through an audit process, investigations, looking at complaints,

receiving complaints and investigating them. Generally, it is the division which

has custody of the mandate set out in the Commission's act. That division also

has a couple of other functions which have been given to it by government in

terms of the management of the organization.

The minister referred to the Classification Appeal

Board. While the board itself is not part of the Commission, administrative

support to the board is, and that division supports that process. It also

supports, in an administrative way, the management Classification Appeal Board

and the management grievance process within government.

The other two divisions don't arise directly from the

legislation, but arise from different initiatives within the government. The

second division would be the Employee and Departmental Services Division. That

division's primary program is the Employee Assistance Program which, of course,

arises basically from a Memorandum of Understanding between the union, the

Newfoundland Association of Public Employees, and the government dating back to

In 1984, the Commission was given responsibility to

carry out this program on behalf of both the employer and the union. From that

program, given that the program involves counseling of individual employees who

may have problems of one sort or another, there have been some extensions from

the program where the counseling program appears to identify problems in the

workplace, whether problems of conflict between individuals, co-workers, or

conflict between managers and staff, that are causing stress to individuals and

distress for individuals.

From the initial starting point of the Employee

Assistance Program come programs like the Respect for Workplace initiative which

attempts to find a more reasonable way of dealing with conflict in the

workplace. Employee wellness - encouraging employees to basically take care of

themselves in the sense that a healthy employee is a more productive employee.

We have also talked a little bit about workplace

wellness, whether there are management practices that might be better suited to

ensuring employee productively or a lack of stress in the workplace which, of

course, will help productivity in the long run. So there is a collection of

services and programs which have come from the initial starting point of the

Employee Assistance Program. That is generally in the second division.

The third division is called the Policy and Planning

Division, and its mandate has been given to it by the government about two years

ago to carry out the public service reform initiative and some of the

initiatives attached to that. Public service reform - we talked about it last

year, a bit - basically is an initiative to try to revitalize the public

service, rebuild some of our HR capacity and our management capacity through

programs like increased development and training, better planning processes and

things like that. In addition, this is the division which has coordinated the

development of senior management development programs, basically education and

development programs for the executive and senior management group. It has also

been instrumental in working on a proposal for a government-wide management

development program for the broader management group. This division also is

responsible for the strategic planning function within the Commission itself, so

its program area is to serve government and the broader public service through

coordination of the public service reform initiative, but we look to it as well

internally for strategic planning.

Does that answer your question?

MR. J. BYRNE: Pretty well.

Just a couple of other questions. With respect to

staff training and development, would that be utilized more by new employees

coming into the system or would it be fifty-fifty with the existing employees?

In a given year - say, for last year - how many people would actually take

advantage of staff training and development?

MR. FAOUR: The Commission itself doesn't have

custody of that program any more. That was moved to Treasury Board about three

years ago. I should say that the function is aimed at all employees, not just

new employees. In fact, my guess is that existing employees take advantage of it

in much greater numbers than new employees. When it was at the Commission it was

designed to provide an opportunity for employees to develop skills in areas that

the organization needed. My understanding is that it is doing the same thing,

but it is not within the Commission now. It is in Treasury Board.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have a question for the minister.

You mentioned the importance of the Public Service

Commission Act. It was my understanding, when the Public Service Commission was

first put in place, it was to do pretty well all the hiring within government.

Over the past few years I think there have been some changes there. There is

more hiring done now through the line departments and what have you, especially

in the temporary positions. It seems to me that government is doing a lot more

hiring in temporary positions than they have in the past, for various reasons.

Is there any talk or has consideration been given to

putting back the authority and responsibility to the Public Service Commission

with respect to full hiring throughout the civil service, not only in government

itself but the Crown corporations and what have you?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, in response to the

question of the member opposite, that delegation of hiring practices within

departments was done in 1998 and it has worked out quite well. In fact, as the

Chairman and CEO, Mr. Faour, just alluded to, the audit is done by the Public

Service Commission on all hirings. In fact, they conducted over 600 last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can I just interject? When you say

the audit has been done on over 600, the line departments do the hiring and then

the Public Service Commission does an audit on the hiring in each position? Is

that what happens?

MS THISTLE: That is correct. The Public Service

Commission does an audit now on all hiring - departmental hiring - that are done

through departments. Last year they actually audited -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is just for permanent

positions, is it?

MS THISTLE: Permanent positions, correct.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, alright.

MS THISTLE: Of course, departments have the

authority to hire on a temporary basis as well but, as I said, last year over

600 were audited. The report was just made by myself and also the Chair that -

these are ongoing and we intend to do that. The Public Service Commission

intends to do that on an annual basis.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is it for me.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: Just a quick comment on the Public

Service Commission. I think the point I am about to make is isolated. I feel

sometimes that degrees that are required in some jobs advertised through the

Public Service Commission sometimes don't always provide the best candidate. I

know that in the case which I will mention - and I can certainly provide you

with the information - after going through lengthy advertising for a candidate

to fill a position where two were hired with degrees, that, because of the

commonsense approach and the ability of a person to communicate and work in a

certain environment, when an individual was given the opportunity, the program

and the job have never worked better. Again, these are very isolated cases. I

just want to make the point that sometimes I think the criteria that has to be

met by certain jobs - and very isolated - that sometimes I feel hindered in

probably getting the best candidate to do a job in a certain area.

That is all I want to say.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. Lush.

MR. LUSH: I have a couple of comments as well, to

congratulate the minister and her staff for the excellent job they do and the

very important job in terms of ensuring that we have competent, efficient and

effective workers within our public service. They play a vital and pivotal role

to effective government. We have to look to these people for ideas and policies

and they very often, particularly in the senior management positions, help

develop policies for the Province and run the entire affairs of the Province. It

is very important in this technological world they we have trained people,

competent people, and I want to commend them on the Graduate Recruitment

Program, which I think is an excellent program, ensuring that we have competent

people for the future.

I would also commend you on your training and

development program. It is so important that we have ongoing development in any

particular sphere, particularly within government services. It is so important

in Newfoundland where we are an island and we tend to become insular in our

thinking, so I go for the broadest and the most comprehensive training to ensure

that our people are on a level with the thinkers and the developers right across

this country, and that we spare nothing in terms of ensuring that we have a

competent workforce within the public service.

If I could give that encouragement and that bit of

impetus, that we not be timid in terms of participating in training and

development of our workforce because it is vital that we have a dynamic,

competent workforce within the Province of Newfoundland, that is all I want to

say.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Wiseman.

MR. WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just a quick comment to echo my colleague for Terra

Nova. I want to congratulate the minister and her staff on the exceptional job

that you are doing. Just for my own clarification, on the 600 audits, does that

include all hiring, both temporary and full-time? Or did that audit include

something other than hiring?

MS DEVINE: If I may comment, the 602 refer to

filling of permanent positions within the public service; however, the

Commission officers, in going out, also asked departments for the opportunity to

review the processes used for temporary hiring. I do not have the statistics on

those, and we did not audit the filling of every temporary position or every

contact primarily because it is not within our legislative mandate to do so, but

certainly we were interested to see the kinds of processes that were used in

departments with temporary hiring.

MR. WISEMAN: Was that over a one, two or three

year period?

MS DEVINE: We have undertaken this audit

commencing in November and we are just about ready to conclude, but the act

provides for us to review this process annually. In fact, we are required to do

that.

MR. WISEMAN: Okay, thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman, that's it for me.

CHAIR: Mr. Hodder.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you very much.

I wanted to go back to the audit. I am wondering if

you could explain to me the processes that are used in the audit, and how the

audit complies with the definition of a functioning audit, and if you could

explain to me the whole audit process so that - we say the word audit but nobody

has defined it.

MS DEVINE: If I could just comment. What we have

are two Commission officers who visit each department and actually set up an

office in each department. They conduct a review of every file on record which

relates to a permanent appointment. They review the file in terms of the

documentation in the file, but not merely to see if the Ts are crossed. They

assess the actual file in terms of - for example, as Mr. Andersen indicated: Do

the qualifications as identified in the ad make sense in relation to the kinds

of work that this position will obviously be carrying out?

As well, in addition to looking at the file and

following up if there is any problem or any questions around the documentation,

the process also includes discussions with the HR managers within that

particular department, discussions with the executive of the department,

including the deputy minister. We also have this year, in terms of the audit,

posted a notice to ensure that all public servants were aware that we are doing

audits in departments and encouraging them, if they have comments either

positive or if they have concerns, that they can reach the two Commission

officers who are conducting the audits to offer their comments. We did that as a

way of reaching all employees to ensure that we are not just looking at a file

and talking to the directors and the executive but that all employees in

departments have the opportunity to offer comment, whether positive or negative.

Certainly we have had some employees who have taken us up on that request.

In the past as well, we have also gone out to people

who are certified by the Commission to Chair selection boards and ask them to

write us with their confidential comments with respect to how well the

delegation process is occurring.

Another part of the process will be an actual review

with each deputy minister of the delegation agreement. There is a delegation

agreement signed with each deputy minister and CEO by the Commission. We will be

individually reviewing these with deputies, as well as the results of the audit

process.

MR. H. HODDER: When you have completed your audit

process, are these reports then coordinated back to the human resources

personnel within the various departments? How do we coordinate all of this

within the various departments to make sure that the principles that need

revision indeed do experience the revision, the upgrading and the changes that

are necessary?

MS DEVINE: There are individual reports completed

and compiled on each department summarizing the outcome and the specific

processes used for the audit in that particular department or agency, and there

are particular comments with respect to each department or agency. These are all

compiled and presented to the Commission. As well, the Commission officers

provide a general comment with respect to how well the delegation process is

being undertaken across government. They are required as well to make

suggestions with respect to any deficiencies or any problems, and suggestions

for remedy. We also ask them to make suggestions as to how the audit process may

be further improved, because we are always looking for other ways to assess how

well this process is working.

MR. H. HODDER: I want to move for a few moments to

those people who are working in the civil service but have not yet gained

permanent status. As you know, there are many people in industry today - and I

can think of people as varied as the Marystown Shipyard - where people are hired

on for twenty-nine days and you know beforehand that when the twenty-eighth day

arrives you are going to be laid off. In fact, in some cases you are given a

layoff notice on the day you arrive. This is happening in industry. It is

happening in the health services. It is happening to social workers who are

told: Look, you are on for sixty days and you know on the fifty-ninth day that

you are not back tomorrow. Now you may be back next week, because then you will

be hired again for another sixty days.

The whole strategy is that we do not give these mostly

young people permanent status. So we have a situation where temporary employees

are hired for defined times, let go, and rehired. I talked to a person awhile

ago who tells me that this has happened for years and years to them - this

happened to be a social worker - and nobody seems to be championing their cause.

You talk to the people in the department and they say: Well, you know, that's

the way it is. You talk to the senior people and they say: Well, you know,

that's the way it is.

Yet, we talk about recruitment and retention, the

Graduate Recruitment Program. Isn't there a terrible inconsistency here that,

when we it comes to - we are looking for the very best people and yet we are

turning off our newest, our brightest, the young people who are hired on and

laid off the same day, or given a layoff notice in essence the same day they are

hired? I know that your mandate is not in that area so we will go to the

minister and say to the minister that there is a terrible inconsistency here,

and a fundamental injustice to some of our very brightest and youngest people.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank

the member opposite for his question. There will always be a need for temporary

employees to fit in on shift situations and vacations and whatever. There will

always be a need for temporary employees. I think what you have seen over the

past ten years, not only with our Province but right across the country, has

been a time of restraint. Of course, restraint and fiscal limitations force you

to do the things that can make government work and the Province work, but I

think if you look back to some of the measures that this government has

instituted over the past few years to recruit and retain.... The instance here

in the public service was mentioned today with the fifteen new recruits, but if

you look over our health care sector and you remember we have injected $14

million over the past twelve months, and that would be for the hiring of new

nurses and also for resource people attached to the health care to assist nurses

and so on, not only have we done that but just recently we have instituted a

program to entice new nursing graduates.

These are things that, as our economy improves, we

will be further investing more money into, the hiring of new public servants

throughout the system. I think over the past four years, when you consider that

this government came to office with a $350 million deficit and we have managed

to balance our books ever since, that we have taken great strides to address the

very problems you have announced; but we can improve, there is a lot of room to

improve, and we hope to do more things in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. H. HODDER: Of course, you have to admit that

the highest deficit we had in the last ten years was during the Clyde Wells'

Administration, which happened to be a Liberal Administration in the first

years.

I just wanted to go back to these temporary employees,

because that is the line of questioning. In essence, what we did with nursing -

we waited until there was a crisis develop, until we had turned off every single

part-time nurse, until they were so desperate, so fed up, that they decided they

would take their suitcases and move out of the Province altogether.

In social work, we have the same kind of think

happening. What steps are you taking to make sure that we don' turn off....

While we have this Graduate Recruitment Program that sounds so wonderful - and

it is, and that is to a certain extent a positive story - there are so many more

negative stories out there whereby we have so many of our young people who have

been in the public service now for five, six, eight and ten years who still

don't have permanent jobs, who can't get a mortgage, who can't get a loan for a

car and all of these things. What steps are you taking, Minister, to try to give

these young people some kind of permanency within the civil service? Obviously,

your turnover is going to be great in the next few years. The older people are

retiring. How long do you have to wait before you can go to the bank and say: I

have a permanent job and now I can get a mortgage.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think what we have recognized right throughout our

public sector is that we do have an aging workforce. In fact, in our public

service the average age is forty-three years. I think you are finding that also

in the teaching profession and the nursing profession, but what I will say to

you is that since this government came to power in 1996 we have brought a great

deal of stability to our public servants. They don't have to worry about that

pink slip coming out in December to balance the budget. I think if you speak to

most of our public servants, that has been a great measure of security for those

people who have been interested in investing in homes, in big ticket items and

so on.

We have taken great strides to invest in our public

servants. In fact just recently, in February, we announced a reclassification

review for our nurses, our social workers, our LPNs, and also we have announced

a new classification system for our whole public sector workforce. That is in

the early stages now. We are trying to actually go out and find the right

system. Many of the inadequacies that you are indicating will be brought to the

attention of us, of government, during the actual implementation of the new

classification system. What you also have to remember is, coming out of ten

years of fiscal restraint and having to deal with an enormous deficit and an

enormous public debt, that it takes time to bring around these changes. I

believe, if you look at all the initiatives that this government has brought

forward, you will agree that we are definitely heading in the right direction.

Thank you.

MR. H. HODDER: Of course, I should point out that

the wrong direction was under Clyde Wells when, in December, we sat around here

and there were literally hundreds of people who were given five minutes - three

minutes for the Premier to talk and two minutes for them to talk. Then they say:

Thank you very much and away you go.

Yes, you have made some changes but these were changes

created by your previous Liberal Administration. Thank God we don't do that any

more, a week before Christmas.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, I think what I might add

at this time is that it is very difficult to make comments on previous

governments because I am sure governments of both stripes had the same problems,

and it was how they addressed them. This is a new government and we are dealing

with the issues of the day and trying to make improvements for the citizens of

this Province.

In conclusion, if there are no further questions, I

want to say that I value deeply - and this government values deeply - the work

of the public servants of this Province. I thank the Chairman and CEO and the

Commissioner, because I am amazed at the work that the public servants in this

Province do. Coming from the private sector myself, and coming into government

just four years ago, it never ceases to amaze me the valuable work that the

public servants in this Province do for the people of this Province. I am very

grateful - and this government is - for the important role they play. Whatever

we can do to enhance their career paths and make life more interesting and

better in their workforce, we will try to do within our fiscal ability.

Thank you.

MR. FAOUR: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if it is

appropriate, is it, a final word from me?

CHAIR: Sure.

Mr. Faour.

MR. FAOUR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just a couple of comments, because I appreciate the

comments of members of the Committee on a number of areas. I want to assure the

Committee that the Public Service Commission is striving to do the best it can.

Mr. Andersen's comment about concerns about whether the processes we have in

place get the best person are the kinds of things we need to hear. We make no

pretense that we have a perfect system in place, but we are trying to improve it

as we go. Certainly, Sir, if you have any specific comments for us we would

really appreciate hearing them because this year I do intend to look at the

processes and standards that we impose on departments for the recruitment

process, to see whether they are serving our needs. The processes we are using

now are many years old and while they are honest processes, they are good

processes; we are not sure in every case whether we get the result we need.

The other comment in terms of how we ensure the

process works, we are relying significantly on our audit process and on

complaints of individuals. Again, we are learning as we go. The last two or

three years there has been a steep learning curve for us as well as departments

in terms of ensuring high standards in the recruitment process. Again, we are

accepting advice wherever we can on how to improve it.

We know the Auditor General has been doing an audit of

our audit in the past few months and we are very anxious to hear her comments in

next year's report about the recruitment process. My guess is that when we sit

here this time next year the Auditor General's report may be a focus for some of

the discussion, but we are hoping she will make some constructive comments about

the way we are doing things so that we can continue to do it better.

One of the things we have been encouraged at is that

departments are treating the delegated authorities with respect and they are, by

and large, doing a good job. We will be able to get a better handle on it when

our audit report is finished, but what we need to ensure is that there is

confidence in that process as we go into the future. I think there have been

questions raised both here and in the public service generally about: How are

these delegated authorities going to do? Are they going to perform with the same

integrity that I believe the Commission performed that function before

delegation?

We think it can be. We also think there will be an

added benefit with the delegated agreements, and that is more efficiency. We do

think that departments with a good process can handle their own recruitment more

efficiently and more effectively - because they know their business better than

we do - than if the Public Service Commission does it centrally. We do not

believe that central control of these processes is always the best way to go,

although I do believe that good standards and good processes mandated from the

centre can be very helpful.

As Chair, I would also like to thank the members for

their positive comments. We feel we are doing a good job. We hope we will

continue to provide effective service to the public service generally. We are

very cognizant of the fact that the only reason we are here is to ensure that we

have a public service that performs for elected officials of the Legislature and

of the government and for the citizens of the Province. That is very much within

our vision, that our purpose is to try to ensure that the public service

continues to keep elected people in mind and the people of the Province in mind

in terms of the people we serve.

Thank you very much for this opportunity. I appreciate

the comments you have made.

CHAIR: Do you have any questions?

MR. WISEMAN: Mr. Chairman, just one quick comment

for the record, actually. My colleague for Waterford Valley had alluded to the

fact that the deficit - for the record, when the government changed in 1989 we

had a deficit on current accounts of $360 million. It was inherited from the

previous government, so you can imagine the adjustments that had to be made to

try and balance the accounts of this Province on current accounts.

If my memory serves me correctly, and I think the

Public Service Commission probably knows better than I do, a couple of years ago

I think we converted a lot of temporaries to full time. So, in essence, what we

have done is, we should have less temporaries now in terms of time of service as

a temporary individual than we have had in many years.

I am just making that comment for the record, Mr.

Chairman, so that 100 years from now when they read the record they will know -

if they ever read it - that all is not what is said to be.

Thank you.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01., carried.

On motion, Public Service Commission, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: Before we go, we just want to adopt the

minutes of the meeting of March 27.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, Mr. Faour and Ms.

Devine. Thank you very much for your candid conversation.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.