Volume XL Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 19 27 M ay 1 985

The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the 'Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to inform hon. members that, as ot May 25 to June 2, 1985, over 100,000 Newfoundlanders will join millions of other Canadians by participating in a unique nine day celebration known as Physical Activity Week. National Physical Activity Week is a major promotional campaign designed to stimulate greater participation in physical activity.

In keeping with the first National Physical Activity Week launched in 1983, this year's campaign will again feature a number of nation-wide mass participation projects sponsored by national and provincial health and fitness associations, provincial governments and Fitness Canada. Thousands of fitness events are being held all across the country and here in Newfoundland and Labrador, a very extensive

schedule of events is planned. This year there are sixteen towns that are hosting their own fitness weeks during National Physical Activity Week, along with fourteen provincial health and fitness associations and over 100 L927 27 May 1985 Vol XL individual communities that are hosting their own singular events. All areas of the Province from Nain to Wabush, Labrador City to Corner Brook, Grand Falls to St. John' s, across the Burin Peninsula, Conception Bay area and others, are involved in the planned events.

This is the third year for National Physical Activity Week, and already there is an increase in community involvement and events held. Our first year in Newfoundland, we had nine towns hosting their own fitness weeks, last year there were eleven, and this year, we have progressed to sixteen. More and more provincial groups are also increasing their participation. My department has been co-ordinating the various projects with these provincial associations and the above-mentioned groups, ensuring that as many people as possible get out and become active during National Physical Activity Week '85.

Some provincial government departments have also taken the initiative and are participating in various projects throughout the week. An enormous amount of volunteer work has gone into this campaign, with an estimated 3,000 volunteers helping out. The success of National Physical Activity Week can only be made possible by the dedicated work of these numerous volunteers and various associations and groups. As Minister responsible for fitness , I urge bon. members and all people of Newfoundland and Labrador to take

part in as many events as possible during the week of May 25 to June 2, 1985. With more and more people becoming No. 19 [UNEDITED] R927

physically active each year, projects such as NPAW obviously provide us with alternate ways of getting fit. Fitness can be achieved in hundreds of ways, as long as people understand how to get _ fit. By providing opportunities for people to get involved in physical activity and offering reliable information and support, the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth, along with provincial health and fitness associations, is ensuring that the average Newfoundlander has the opportunity to achieve his own personal level of fitness.

Wherever bon. members may be during this week, I urge you to see what is happening in your area. Contact the town office recreation department or, if you wish, you could contact the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth, and make a personal commitment to get involved in this unique fitness celebration. If you consult your- T.V. , newspaper, you will

schedule of events. radio find and the As a famous Greek philosopher once said, fitness is not only a state of mind, it is a state of motion. So , I would urge all hen. members not just to think about fitness but to try to get involved. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. K. AYLWARD : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the member for Stephenville. L928 27 May 1985 Vol XL MR. K. AYLWARD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to support that good statement on Physical Activity Week that is coming up and encourage all people to get involved.

I commend the 3,000 volunteers who are helping out and I am sure there are many more people who are getting involved. I myself will be taking it upon myself to get involved as much as I can in Physical Activity Week and, of course, our side will also be doing the same thing I am sure. On that point, too, I had only hoped that there would be increased funding for recreational facilities around the island in the neC!-r future to help this participation rate increase so that people can become very active on this island.

At the present time they seem to have a lot of free time on their hands because not many of them are working so maybe we can do something about getting them working and physical activity will get better. So I commend the statement made by the minister and I challenge him to a game of squash in the near future. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Leader Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like back to a question that sidetracked on last week. like to ask the Premier No. 19 [UNEDITED] of the to get we got I would whether R928

the provincial government has decided to take a position in support one of the three bidders who have plans to reactivate the refinery as opposed to the bidders who plan to dismantle the Come By Chance Refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we will be sitting down with Petro Canada in the not too distant future to take a look at exactly what bids were received by Petro Canada. Obviously, we will be eager to pursue those bids which are going to give Newfoundland and Labrador the best return, the most jobs and so on.

So we are very, very eager to pursue it in that light and, obviously, if something reasonable and sensible comes forward whereby we can see the refinery reactivated and see jobs added to the provincial economy then that is the way we will proceed. We have not seen 'the bids yet - I do not think we have seen the bids yet, I have not seen the bids - but there is a requirement by Petro Canada to sit down with us and review the bids, then we will be giving our point of view on them, but we have not seen them yet. We can only go by what has been speculated by some of the people who intend to put in bids.

But, obviously, our preferred position, as it has always been for resource development in this Province of any kind, or any kind of economic activity, better said, is to ensure that employment opportunities are maximized. It will be in·that light that we will sit down with Petro Canada. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. L929 27 May 1985 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the Leader Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, would the confirm whether he will of the Premier also be sitting down with and with the Government consulting of Canada before a decision is made by Petro Canada with a view to having the Government of Canada in a position to direct Petro Canada, of which it is the major shareholder, to accept the bid that is of maximum benefit to this Province? Would the Premier indicate whether or not the Government of Canada and the Province of Newfoundland are moving on the same track on this issue? Is there agreement at this point in time as to how we should proceed with respect to the Petro Canada refinery? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, number one is the Leader of the Opposition · (Mr.· Barry) is a tiny bit late. We have been talking to the federal government about this now for several months. I, and other members of the ministry, have been talking about it to our representative in the federal Cabinet and to others. So that sort of work is done.

We have indicated to them what our preference would be if the proper bid is put in place by a private company and I do not think from the talks that I have had that they had any problems with the goals that we want to achieve through this process that is now ongoing. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. No. 19 [UNEDITED] R929

MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: In the light of the fact that there are some indications that there is some lobbying being done by a former Premier of this Province, Mr. Moores, on behalf of certain bidders and some support being given by Mr. Crosbie to another bidder, has the Premier decided on which side he will come down? Is he still on side with Mr. Crosbie, in light of Mr. Crosbie' s comments about those who criticized the federal budget?

In light of the fact that the Premier has expressed concern with respect to the decreases and/or limitations placed on transfer payments, would the Premier consider himself to fall within the category of ni twi ttary, I believe, was the Minister of Justice's (Mr. Crosbie) category for all those who have placed any criticism on the federal budget? And in light of this antagonistic approach being by the Federal Minister of Justice, will that have any role to play in the side that the Premier comes down on in terms of the lobbying that is going on for the Come By Chance refinery? MR.

MARSHALL: Did you spend all weekend on that question? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I know both gentlemen well, the former Premier of the Province and the former minister and member of this House, now Justice Minister and Attorney L930 27 May 1985 Vol XL General for Canada. But, you know, our preferred position has nothing to do with those two gentlemen at all. I mean, they can support who they like. I do not know who the former Premier is supporting.

We had no communication with him, as far as I know, on any lobbying attempts that the hon. gentleman might be making on behalf of this or that bidder. And I do not know who the Minister of Justice (Mr. Crosbie) is supporting in the bids that have been put in. As I said, we have not even seen the bids yet. This government comes down on the side of Newfoundland and Labrador, and if it just so happens that Mr. Moores or Mr. Crosbie are in favour of that fine, if they are not, that is fine too. We are here to serve the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

And we have always and will continue to come down on the side of what is going to maximize employment opportunities for Newfoundland. So our best friend and the people that . we want to support are the people of this Province, you know, and that is all. Whether that is Mr. Crosbie or Mr. Moores or both of them, it makes no difference to us. They can go ahead and do whatever they want to do. We are going to support and push for what we think is best for Newfoundland and Labrador. By way of answer, may I just ask a question.

I am a little bit confused myself and, as a member of the House, I am sure other members are , as to where the Opposition stands, because I have heard comments from some of the members of the Opposition that they support Mr. Shaheen in his attempts to get the refinery back. So I do not know whether that is just one individual member's opinion. Was he speaking No. 19 [UNEDITED] R930

as a member of the Opposition? I do not know where the Opposition really stands. One day they are saying one thing and the next day you hear another member talking about Mr. Shaheen and him getting the refinery back and this kind of thing. All I know is to date we have not seen the bids, but when we do we will be making our position known very clearly, and the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) can be assured that we will be taking a position different from the Liberal Party of the past who rushed into - SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: a development which became another white elephant for Newfoundland. We do not intend to allow the Liberal Opposition to push us into another white elephant. The next time we get involved in that kind of development it will be permanent. This government is in favour of opening things which are going to stay open. We have been preoccupied, Mr.

Speaker, over the last number of years with turning around Liberal mistakes and making success stories out of them, and that is what we will do when it comes to Come By Chance or any other development in Newfoundland and we will protect the Newfoundland people from the Liberal Party and the mistakes of the past. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. member for Menihek. L931 27 May 1985 Vol XL MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I too like to stay out of the way of charging white elephants myself but my question is for the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell).

I understand that an application has been made to the CRTC for cable service for I think it is in excess of seventy-one communi ties in rural Newfoundland, and that this application is going forward at hearings to be held in Gander at the end of June. I also understand that a lot of the major cable companies, · the large ones like Avalon Cablevision and others, are very much opposed to this and are planning to intervene against this particular application on a number of grounds.

Having lived in a rural area for a long period of time, I know the desire of people in rural areas to be able to access things such as the Atlantic Satellite network and the large American network and public broadcasting system, and so on, all of which I understand would be available with this Cancom operation. MR. SIMMS: And NTV. MR. FENWICK: Actually they will not carry that, unfortunately.

The question I have for the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications is this: In view of the fact that there is a possibility that this opposition from vested interests is likely to delay this particular application, which would be to the benefit I think of something like 15,000 subscribers in small communities all across the Province, will the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications use his good offices in order to intervene No. 19 [UNEDITED] R931

between the two applicants prior to the hearing so that some sort of arrangement can be worked out so that this entire application, which in my opinion is an extremely desireable thing, does not get flushed down the toilet? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: I am basically aware that the company has made an application to CRTC, a company led by Mr. Joe Shannon, I believe, to provide cablevision service to seventy or eighty smaller communities in Newfoundland and Labrador.

As to the outlook or the opinion of other cablevision companies in the Province being against the hearing and they are going to intervene in the hearings to be held at Ga~der, I have not received any information to that effect. The gentleman who wishes to perform this service, or provide this service, I understand will be in the Pro:vince some time this week and I understand he is trying to meet with me and I am certainly willing to sit down and listen to what he has to say and hear what his plans are all about. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Menihek.

MR. FENWICK: Having spent part of the morning discussing this with the General Manager of Avalon Cablevision, I can assure the minister that there is going to be very strong opposition from that particular organization, and as I understand it from others as well. And this L932 27 May 1985 Vol XL will be a kind of opposition, in my opinion, which may at least delay the application, or maybe even scuttle it entirely. Yet Avalon Cablevision has no immediate plans to expand into those areas and to my knowledge none of the other major cable companies in the Province has such plans.

This is real opposition, it is about to become obvious at this point. My question to the minister is would he at least see what he can do about intervening with these people in order to make sure that they do not end up scuttling the whole thing? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that that is what the hearing process is all about, if there are intervenors and they have some arguments for or against this kind of an application, that is the medium for them to provide that kind of -argument and I have no plans to interfere with the public process of hearings. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Minister of Education.

I should like to ask, does the minister have in his possession actual signed, documented, written accounts of political harrassment by teachers across this Province? Or is the Newfoundland Government and the Minister of Education waging a vendetta, a witch-hunt against the No. 19 [UNEDITED] R932

NTA based on rumour and innuendo? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for his question. I would certainly like to assure him that reports that have recently come out about harassment in the schools is not a witch-hunt at all by this side. In fact, I think I went to great length to make that clear in any statements I have made. What has happened is that since the election I have received a number of reports. First I received verbal reports that harassment had taken place or was taking place in the classroom.

I accepted the verbal reports for what they were worth but asked the individuals involved to follow up the verbal reports with written reports citing names, places, etc. This is being done and . I have in possession, yes, some written documentary reports ·and I am aware that more are coming. Now, I have already talked to the President of the NTA about this and the NTA is also extremely concerned that this is going on, even though the NTA advocates political action.

As teachers I am sure we were all involved in politics but outside the classroom, and the concern is that this is going on within the classroom and they are very concerned about it. When I have the completed documented reports I will be discussing them with the NTA and with the school boards , who are the employers. And certainly we will not be taking action from a political side. It is not a political or party issue. It is an issue of concern to parents and to children and we will be L933 27 May 1985 Vol XL handling it just that way. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

DECKER: I can assume that these written documents will be tabled in this hon. House. I should ask the minister if he is concentrating upon alleged instances of teachers making political comments in the classrooms or is this investigation going to be broader? And will he be investigating more than comments that are critical of government? Will he also be investigating the instances where propaganda from the Premier's office, which was confirmed by the previous Minister of Education, is being distributed to the schools? Will the investigation be broad enough to study the prevalence of this·, Mr. Speaker? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, we are comparing apples and oranges, of course, and that is nothing new for the hon. member. But I would like to make sure that he understands that we have a problem that is of concer:Q to the employer, that is of grave concern to the NTA as a professional union, because it is downgrading the image of teachers and they are, perhaps, more concerned than we are. We are the ones to whom the allegations were brought and we will put them in the proper place for investigation.

The professional group will be looking into it, the employer, I presume, will be looking into it, and certainly we are not going to use them as the basis for any kind of a No. 19 [UNEDITED] R933

witch-hunt. In fact, at this time we are not saying that the only children being harassed are children of affiliation with our party. It could be any party involved and that has been made quite clear. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: In view of the front page of the Evening Telegram, and in view of the fact the minister was on CBC radio this morning, he would make an excellent job of trying to protect the innocent teachers, I think.

Is this line of investigation an attempt to turn the people of this Province against the teachers in light of the fact their contract negotiations are going on? Or is it an attempt to further mislead the people by diverting attention away from the real problems with education? I think about the social problems, I think about the high unemployment, the long welfare lines and so on, as summed up in the speech by the NTA president at _th_~ _ _ l985 convention. Is this purely a diversion to get our attention away from the real problems in this Province, Mr. Speaker? MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, this tactic that is presently being carried out is being done in consultation with the NTA and with the employer because there is a problem there involving perhaps only a very small number of individuals who L934 27 May 1985 Vol XL are doing nothing for education in this Province or for their professional association if they are carrying on that way. It is because of the concern of the agencies involved that we are looking into this, and only for that concern, and it has nothing to do with the collective agreement or anything else.

I am sure that will become quite clear, Mr. Speaker, in the next few days. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address questi9n to the Minister Culture, Recreation and Youth. for this of Has the government abandoned its commitment to the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, in reply to that, no, we have not abandoned our commitment to the Arts Council. MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: the Considering you have not abandoned it, as you say, and considering that the statement that was brought out last week by your acting minister almost lambasted No. 19 [UNEDITED] R934

..... them for using 59 per cent of your budget - of course, they are not given much money anyway - and considering the controversy that is going on on both sides now, and also that you have a sustained funding coming from the minister' s department, I ask you again, how are you going to show your commitment to the Arts Council when most of them are getting ready to resign, or have resigned? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr.

Speaker, I think since the inception of the Arts Council that we have demonstrated very well our commitment to them,. because it was just in our last year's budget that we gave them approximately $225,000. With regard to the amount of money spent on administration, 59 per cent of the budget, as a relatively new minister to the department, I must say that that percentage does concern me when you take an allotment of some $225,000 and you have approximately $130,000 taken up with administration. .

And, of course, the $225,000 was allocated hoping that it would reach the many artists and different groups within the Province that we wanted to assist, and when you have only 41 per cent of that funding reaching these people, then I have to be very honest as a member and say, yes, I am concerned about it.

With respect to the transferring of funds from the other groups to the Arts Council, I will just reiterate, as I think was made clear by the acting minister of the day, which has been reiterated in correspondence from the Premier L935 27 May 1985 Vol XL to the Arts Council, that the matter of transfer is not closed, it is just that we have a strong representation from other groups concerned and, of course, we, as a government, find that we have to be fair and take into consideration these letters of objection.

And, to be very honest with you, these groups feel that we are doing a reasonably good job with the administering of these funds. But I would just like to reiterate, in concluding, that the matter of transfer right now is not closed and we are assessing it very closely. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Will the .hon. the· member for Bonavista North yield to the hon. the member for Stephenville? MR. LUSH: I will yield, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: You may be concerned about the amount of the budget that is being used but, I mean, they do not have a department or access to resources. They have to set up and do their work. I have talked to people on both sides of the issue and they all want to get the whole thing resolved. The mandate of the Arts Council, supposedly, is what your sustained funding is doing now - that is from what you No. 19 [UNEDITED] R935

read - so now you have a separate group that is directly administered by your department. So I am asking the question, Are you going to make the mandate clear? There is so much confusion in the arts community now that nobody knows what is going on. There was a public meeting last week and one suggested solution that was brought up was that everybody get together to try to solve the problem. Now, that is a solution, and I ask you, Will you take that sol uti on and do something about it soon? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr.

Speaker, it is not a matter of interference, it is a matter of weighing the opinion of all groups concerned in this matter. And, if we were to arbitrarily move all funding to the Arts Council, the hon. gentleman would be up over there nailing us to the wall for that. What we are trying to do is be fair to all groups, and anyone who has an opinion and is objecting to a transfer of funds to another group or to be administered elsewhere, then we as a government, and I as a minis _t~­ will do everything I can to accommodate them and to make a decision that will be as fair as possible to all concerned.

Now, as I reiterate again, we have correspondence on record that strongly supports the position that we have taken with regards to the performing arts organization and the publishers' assistance programme. Taking into regard the opinions and concerns of the Arts Council, that I am a new minister and addressing the issue, I will sit down over the course of the L936 27 May 1985 Vol XL next week to ten days with representatives of the Arts Council to discuss this situation in full detail. So hopefully we can resolve the situation.

The matter of transfer is not closed but, when we make a decision and we make a move on the issue, I want to make sure that I am making the right one. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER {McNicholas): The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, Friday will be May 31 and that is going to be Black Friday for many part-time fishermen in this Province, who, on that date, will have to surrender their salmon. licences - I am referring to part-time fishermen - as imposed by the federal government on their mandatory buy- back of salmon licences imposed recently this month.

I am wondering if under the circumstances that I have referred to in the couple of speeches that I have given to the House talking about the fishermen who are serving their apprenticeship, fishermen who are trying to meet the requirements to become full-time fishermen, that is the fishermen we are concerned with on this side of the House, in view of these circumstances, Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) can indicate whether he has done anything at this point to sort of help these part-time fishermen out of this unfortunate plight? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. No. 19 [UNEDITED] R936

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, if Friday May 31 this year is Black Friday because of that policy, I wonder what Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday or Friday was last year when another administration in Ottawa began the first cut-back of salmon licences in this Province over a period of time. Now, Mr. Speaker, that still does not take away from the sensi ti vi ty and the importance of the question that the hon. gentleman asked; it just points out the petty politics that the hon. gentleman can play with a question of that significance. The fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, that the first priority for defending fishermen in this Province, as far as this department is concerned, is for full-time fishermen, people who earn their living full-time from the fishery. That is a position taken and supported by the Fishermen's · Union in this Province. The Fishermen's Union supports the policy that if there has to be a buy-back of licences, that those who earn their living in a part-time manner should be affected first. Even that aside, Mr.

Speaker, even considering all those caveats, even considering all those conditions, the fact of the matter is that we have made representation to the federal government saying that in some circumstances it might be right and proper to look on an individual basis to see how you are going to implement this buy-back programme. So we have done that, Mr. Speaker, and we did it very quickly after the policy was announced.

We have also indicated to the federal minister that we would like to have further discussion have the Meeting. everything on this matter when we Council of Ministers' So we have done we could as far as we L937 27 May 1985 Vol XL can up to this point in time, being consistent with the policy that we have always have been consistent with and that is our first priority, to try as best we can to protect full-time fishermen in the Province, people who are earning their living from the fishery in a full-time occupation. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the bon. member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the bon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) knows quite well that many of those part-time fishermen are making their living out of the fisheries as well. AS a matter of fact, it is one of the requirements that they have to meet in terms of income to meet full-time status. And we are saying if they have these salmon licences· removed from them, this is going to have a negative impact in terms of these fishermen meeting the full-time requirement. Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister i~dicates that they made certain moves.

I have indicated that May 31 is only five days away and if something is not soon done then these fishermen are going to have to surrender their licences. So will the minister undertake to tell this House that he will certainly do something in the next couple of days and inform the part-time fishermen of this Province that they do not have to surrender their licence, whatever is being done that they can hold off until some measures are taken, some steps are taken, that some appeal channel is set up to give those fishermen a chance to No. 19 [UNEDITED] R937

explain just what their circumstances are? Time is running out, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, one of the problems - MR. FLIGHT: Answer the question. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I do not need any coaching from the hon. gentleman for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) in terms of answering a question. Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is one of the biggest problems that we are facing with this particular policy is simply this, that many of the part-time fishermen who are involved in this buy-back programme do not have the receipts from the last or three years of fishing to enable them to be able to qualify for the maximum benefit that the buy-back programme offers. And I should say to Speaker, gentleman, have had Mr. almost zilch the hon. that we feedback from fishermen; we probably had a half a dozen complaints from all the fishermen who are affected throughout the Province since this policy was announced.

Where we have had the most feedback is from fishermen who say they had a good year over the last two or three years but they do not have their receipts. So therefore they are not in a position to qualify, to be able to prove to the federal government that they earned a certain number of dollars over the last number of years so that they can qualify for the maximum benefit. And if that happens, then they are only going to get the base benefit of, I believe, L938 27 May 1985 Vol XL $750.

So we are trying to work out some arrangements with the federal government whereby they will not be cut off at the pass on May 31, that there will still be an extented opportunity open to them if they are able to provide documented evidence of receipts by contacting their buyers, some of whom may or may not be in the Province. So there is a period of time that is needed so that those people can provide documentation so they can provide evidence , so that they can get the best assistance under the buy-back programme that the regulations presently offer. MR. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): A final supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, we are getting somewhere. I would hope that some kind of an announcement is made so that these part-time fishermen know that they do not have to surrender their licences by Friday. My question to the ministe;~:;_ is this, Mr. Speaker.

Would he not agree to make representation to his federal counterpart to ask that a method of appeal be set up as was done in 1982 when the federal government of the day imposed the same mandatory buy-back of salmon licences, but an appeal process was set up where I think people were commissioned to go about the Province and I believe they had twenty-six hearings at that particular time? Would the minister not recommend a similar procedure at this time to ensure that every part-time fisherman is No. 19 [UNEDITED] R938

given a fair chance, a square deal to present his case? SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, what I am most concerned about is that the part-time fishermen involved will have every opportunity that can be made available to them to ensure that they get the best possible remuneration from this buy-back programme that is possible.

So I have made that · clear to the federal minister and to the federal department, and I think that is going to necessitate more time and I would hope that the federal government and the federal minister would respond positively to that approach that I have already made to them. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister speaks correctly when he says there is a real problem between full-time fishermen and part-time.

We know there is a qualification period, before you can become a full-time fisherman, of two years that you have to be fishing while the fishing season is on in your area, that you have to earn 75 per cent of your income, I believe. But whatever the case, I wonder has the minister considered that there may be a number of people who have entered the fishery part-time and are now working towards a full-time licence?

Has he considered more or less an L939 27 May 1985 Vol XL apprenticeship thing, has he considered going to the federal minister and asking him if he would hold this off for a year, perhaps two years but at least a year, so that those people who are becoming full-time fishermen therefore will be entitled to hold on to their salmon licences? Has he considered going to the federal minister and doing that? If so, what were the results of his contact with the federal minister. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman is confused in the definition of qualification for a full-time fisherman. My understanding is that the federal definition of a full-time fisherman is a person who fishes full-time during the fishing season in his area. It does not say anything about 75 per cent. The 75 per cent comes in with some qualifications that we have in terms of people applying for boat bounties and things of that nature. MR. TULK: That is what I said. MR. RIDEOUT: No, the hon. gentleman did not say that. So the fact of the matter is, r-rr.

Speaker, that if the regular normal fishing season for salmon along the Labrador Coast, for example, is from July 1 to the middle of August or whatever, then the person who fishes full-time during that period of time is considered a full-time fisherman in that season. So that is our understanding. We have checked on this with the federal people since the policy was announced and they tell us that that is their

interpretation of the definition No. 19 (UNEDITED] R939

of full-time as well. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Let me get it straight for the minister. In the case of the Fishery Loan Board, yes, it is 75 per cent of your income during the fishing season in your area, but there are parts of this Province, along the Northeast Coast, in Bonavista North, in Twillingate, Fogo and so on, where the salmon fishing season is only a part of the defined fishing season by the federal government, and it is a very important part, yet those fishermen fish all year long.

My question to him is that there are a number of fishermen who have not yet fulfilled the two year requirement to be a full-time fisherman, and yet they have salmon licences, and now they are about to lose them. Has he considered go ing to the federal minister and saying that those people who are trying to upgrade themselves to full-time fishermen and yet may have a year to go on that, has he considered going to the federal minister and saying, "Will you hold off taking back their licence?" Because, you see, the point is that once they become full-time fishermen they have half their income gone anyway.

Has the minister considered that? If so, what reaction has he to it? MR. FLIGHT: Will the minister do that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: L940 27 May 1985 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I have to say very honestly that I am not aware of a single case in the whole Province where that kind of representation has been made to us. We have had some enquiries from some of the - MR. FLIGHT: They have given up on you. MR. RIDEOUT: The minister's office, Mr. Speaker, and the Department of Fisheries, has an open-door policy.

Anybody in this Province who wants to make an enquiry about a provincial regulation, a federal regulation, we will do our best to give them the information as we understand it. And while I appreciate the hon. gentleman' s question and I will have a look at it very quickly, I am not aware of a single case in the Province where we have received that kind of representation.

I am aware we have received representation from old age pensioners , or people who work on snowplows and stuff like that saying, wHow am I going to go about proving that I earned ·X number of dollars over the last three years?" That is the kind of representation we have received, Mr. Speaker. We have not received any of the kind of representation that the hon. gentleman _is _ talking about. But we will take it under advisement and if there is any merit to the suggestion that the hon. gentleman is making, then we will look at it very quickly. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Petitions No. 19 [UNEDITED] R940

MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: I will read the petition. It concerns a very common theme that we have been dealing with over the last month. It says: "We, the council of Mary' s Harbour and the undersigned people of the community of Mary 1 s Harbour, wish to petition Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro on the high electric rates in this area so we can have lower electric rates. We would appreciate a reply at your · earliest convenience.• This is signed by 166 residents of Mary 1 s Harbour and Lodge Bay plus myself.

It is a different problem from the problem that we have been dealing with in the past about general high electricity rates. Mary' s Harbour is on the Coast of Labrador in the district of Eagle River and as a result it is most probably connected up to an electrical ·system which is generated by diesel power.

It is the first time ·! have had a chance to either present a petition on behalf of residents who are living with diesel power generated electricity and it is really a different argument from what we have had before but it seems to me that the argument that we have been using for the evening of electricity rates across the island, that is, whether you are using electricity generated by the Holyrood plant, which if you paid for on its rate would be very expensive, or whether you are using electricity produced by the Bay d 1 Espoir project or by any other means which would be much less expensive.

We have adopted a policy on the Island that no matter where your electricity L941 27 May 1985 Vol XL comes from, be it generated by oil or be it generated by hydro, that you pay the same rate.

It seems to me patently unfair that the number of people who are using electricity that is produced by diesel generation, which is by oil as we all know, should now have to pay a considerably higher rate and, although I know it would contribute to the deficit of the corporation or it would result in higher general rates, I think in all fairness if we had accepted the policy for most of the island portion then we really are in a hypocritical position if we do not accept it for isolated communities such as Mary' s Harbour and Lodge Bay and for other communities like this. So, Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support this petition and I wish it to be directed to the responsible department for consideration. MR. TOLK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by the member _ for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) and I would like to point out that it is not a new petition in this House as I am sure the member for Menihek is aware. The member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) has presented many petitions in this House calling for some fairness and equity and justice for the people in his district who are served by that kind of power, diesel power. My district, on Fogo Island, has the same problem where not only are they paying the fuel adjustment rates that are being pushed by this government and are being allowed to be done No. 19 (UNEDITED] R941

by and Newfoundland Light and Newfoundland Hydro by Power this rubber stamp government, but they are also paying a diesel rate as well. In actual fact they are paying a double rate because they happen to be serviced by diesel generated electricity rather than hydro. The ~inister for the Offshore (Mr. Marshall) is leaving.

In any case, I want to support the petition and say that that is a totally unfair advantage that we are taking of those people because they live on an island or they live along the Labrador Coast where they have to be served by diesel power, that they have to pay in essence what is two fuel adjustments rates, an adjustment on the normal purchase price of electricity in the Province and an adjustment because they are being served by diesel generated electricity as well. I know if the member for Eagle River were in his seat today he would also like to stand and support this· petition.

I want to support it on his behalf and on behalf of my own constituents, the people of Fogo Island, as well as the people of Mary's Harbour. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I want to also get up and support the petition from the residents of Mary's Harbour. Mr.

Speaker, from Nain to L'Anse-au-Clair right down to Mary's Harbour because of the geographical conditions of the area itself, the terrible, hard, L942 27 May 1985 Vol XL long, cold Winters do cause the people in that particular area of the Province to use much more electricity than other parts of this Province. I support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, only about a week and a half ago I had the .fortunate opportunity to present some similar petition from constituents of mine on the extremely high electric bills that they were paying and I presented those to officials of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and they are looking into it and seeing if there is any way that we can alleviate the suffering that the people along the Labrador Coast have to contend with. So I support the petition. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to present a petition on behalf of the youth of Upper Trinity South. The prayer of the petition states: "We, the youth of Upper Trinity South, would like to see the provincial government place more emphasis on job creation and training for youth from sixteen to twenty-four years, and see programmes implemented soon to address the many serious problems." This petition comes out of a conference which I attended yesterday in Islington and it concerned the many problems of unemployment and youth and the problems with education, etc. It was a very good conference. I No. 19 [UNEDITED] R942

have to commend the people who organized it for doing a very good job. It was a one day conference, part of the reason for that being that there was not enough funding from the government. They got money from the Secretary of State, the federal government, but they did not get a cent from the provincial departments. In speaking with the organizers, I was told they wanted two days to discuss the many serious problems but they had to cram it all into one day. To that effect, I have to commend them, because it was still a very effective conference and it was well attended.

A lot of good ideas came out of it, a lot of good discussion came out of it, and I think you are going to see a lot more of these cropping up in the near future. This being International Year of the Youth, the moneys that are allocated for that, I do not think are quite reasonable. These conferences are beginning to spring up, youth are becoming active in expressing their many concerns for the many problems that they now have. The big one, of course, with them is unemployment, 40 per cent and rising, and they do not see any hope for the future.

The name of the conference was "Nowhere to Go and Nothing to Do" and that was emblematic of most of the presentations that were made by them. I think we are beginning to see initiatives being taken by these young people and I think they should be welcomed by the government and they should be promoted by the government. When you do not give a dollar to a youth conference who are trying to act on their initiative, I do not think that is a very good promotion.

So I am going to be after the L943 27 May 1985 Vol XL other side over there to start promoting, initiative by this age group who are generally and genuinely very concerned about the unemployment problem, which is devastating right now and is going to cause many serious social problems down the road. It is just too serious to push aside and say, 'You know, we are doing a bit here, a bit there, a few thousand dollars here, a few thousand there. ' You are going to have to start getting on the go.

One of the facts that came out, also, was that a $3.8 million federally funded co-operative programme is being introduced across Canada and zero dollars is coming to Newfoundland. So I would ask the opposite side to become active, to begin talking about youth unemployment and to ?egin doing something about it, because if something is not soon done, it will be up over 50 per cent. The Western region is well over 50 per cent and climbing. So I would ask the provincial government to become active, to talk about it and make some moves. The Career Development Department is set up for that purpose.

A representative of the department did not attend this conference. Supposedly, everybody had a prior commitment and could not attend. I ask the provincial government to become active with respect to youth unemployment, the 40 per cent out there who are not employed, and for the people who are not students, because they are not being addressed. I commend the organizers of the conference. I think they did an excellent job with the very few financial resources they had. And, in this International Year of Youth, I would ask the government to get the ball rolling. No. 19 [UNEDITED] R943

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to that petition. I think petition from the hon. speak to it was a gentleman from a conference over the weekend out in, if I recall correctly, Islington and the Trinity South area.

Because the petition is from the area 1 s young people, and because I am presently encountering the same kind of major difficulty among young people in my own area with the problem of lack of work, I have no hesitation in supporting that petition and supporting the request from these young people to have government, or governments combined, do something about the tragic problem of young people, not just students. The $7 million programme announced to date, Mr. Speaker, is helping the students, but there are many out there who are not students anymore.

They have their education to the point where they want to go to work and become gainfully employed. And this $7 million SEED programme is not the answer for those people. AN HON. MEMBER: Right on! MR. MORGAN: They need some work, they need some employment, and the kinds of initiatives taken this weekend out in Trinity South, I think, is the beginning of other types of initiatives that you will see being taken by the young people of our Province who are now qualified and properly trained to go into L944 27 May 1985 Vol XL the work force and, unfortunately, cannot find gainful employment.

I fully support the petition, and I would certainly like the Minister of Career Development {Mr. Power) to address the problems of those types of young people, not just the students, to try to find work for them in the future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise and support the prayer of the petition presented by the hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward). The hon. the member for Bona vista South (Mr. Morgan) has struck the nail right on the head.

We are not just talking about students, Mr. Speaker, we are talking about those people who, because of the system, or through no fault of their own, have been cast aside. They have become frustrated, because there is nowhere to turn, 16,000 young Newfoundland men and women, 41 per cent with nowhere to turn. And the frightening thing, Mr. Speaker, is that these young people pretty soon, labelled 1 the forgotten generation', will become so entrenched among their age group that nobody will be able to help them.

We, on this side, positive ideas, leader's are presenting such as my apprenticeship programme. governors, But Mr. we are not the Speaker, they are No. 19 [UNEDITED] R944

the governors, and they have to start providing leadership for these young people. Because these young people will become so cynical, so turned off, so tormented and twisted by the system, that they will just give up and all kinds of social problems will be created, will ripple right through our society. In fact, it could create a breakdown of social concensus. So I plead with our governors to start exercising leadership and start putting forward new initiatives, to start being imaginative, innovative, to start basically to say to young people, 'Hey, you guys and you girls, we do care!' SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition that is similar to one presented last week in this House, which has to do with parents concerned about difficulties in having their children entered into programmes of French Immersion. I have two petitions here, basically, and I will table both at the same time. Although the wording of the petitions is somewhat different, they have the same thrust.

First it says, 'We, the parents of children denied access to Kindergarten French Immersion programmes, request that as our elected representative in our provincial Legislature, take action to remedy the situation. We are requesting our children be admitted to the particular programme of French Immersion and not discriminated against on the basis of arbitrary and unfair practices.

Please present our L945 27 May 1985 Vol XL petition to the House of Assembly and support our efforts to be treated equally in the education programmes of our choice.' Now, there was another one here. 'We, the undersigned, fully support the endeavors of parents to have their children enrolled in French Immersion programmes.

We urge you to take every action possible to ensure that this programme is available to all people who wish to avail of it and that arbitrary criteria for acceptance be eliminated through the process of accepting all children.' So it is parents and those supporting parents that we have here join in these petitions, Mr. Speaker. Now, if I could have a moment to express the concerns that are raised here. It is a letter written to me by one of the parents who is a signatory to the petition.

RTo briefly summarize the situation for you, there have been s~xty-six children rejected from schools in the city this ·year for this programme. by the school Reasons given board are overcrowding and space shortages.R Now, Mr. Speaker, this is what I asked the Minister of Education (Mr. l:(_earn.) to pay some attention to before.

The school boards, apparently, were not giving the proper reasons to these parents and it was not until one or two parents were able to ascertain that it was for religious reasons that their children were not being accepted that we had this stalemate and children being rejected for reasons which turned out to be false. Parents say, RWe have now discovered, as outlined in a letter by Mr. N. Kelland from the Avalon Consolidated School Board, that there was religious No. 19 [UNEDITED] R945

discrimination involved in rejecting certain children. We understand that the minister's officials have indicated this is contrary to the School ' s Act. " I do not think there was any lengthy, legal opinion or research necessary in order to ascertain that. The parent goes on to say, nThe school boards are refusing to deal with the issue. The number of children applying this year for the programme is approximately the same as the number that applied last year. Instead of trying to meet the anticipated demaJ1d, the RC school board has this year cut back the number of children it will accept from last year.

Funding for the Kindergarten French Immersion teacher costs are paid for by the federal government, the Secretary of State, and there is an abundance of classroom space vacant in the city. As you are aware , the RC school board has reconsidered its decision to close two city schools as a result of 'Democratic interaction,' namely, pressure. nwe requested the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) to look into the matter to see if he could assist in having our children enrolled in the programme for this year.

He referred the matter to the Department of Justice to determine the authority of the minister over the school boards in this matter. After eleven days deliberations, the Justice Department ignored our Schools Act and referred to the federal constitution for its ruling.n There have been some developments since this letter was written. nThat ruling, as you are probably aware, was to reiterate the rights of Francophones and siblings, L946 27 May 1985 Vol XL

Section 23. We are aware of that

section of the charter, it is not the issue. What is at the heart of the matter is are you, our elected representatives in this Province, going to tolerate this discrimination against our children by denying them equal rights as guaranteed by the Canadian Constitution and the provincial human rights code, when costs are defrayed for this enrichment programme by the government of Canada. "The Minister of Justice claims that parents must, through 'Demoncratic interaction, ' request this programme. We have been doing that. We have not yet been heard. The pitiful response from the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Verge) is further augmented by the fact that in her initial statement of eleven days ago she heartily endorsed French education programmes and agreed that there had been discrimination that, 'appeared to be contrary to the laws of the Province. ' Now, even though this still is tru~, the matter has been referred for

interpretation under the federal charter. "In response to a question as to whether the Legislature could ensure the rights of our children, Ms Verge replied, 'Well, I suppose we could do that through legislation, but it is not required under the Constitution.'" MR. DECKER: This, in the International Year of Youth. MR . BARRY : This in the International Year of Youth, yes. "As has a provincial government that adamantly fought for control No. 19 [UNEDITED] R946

-'- over its own provincial affairs, we are sure you will agree with us that this matter can and should be settled at the provincial level. "To date, our children have no school to which they are accepted for September 1985. We are committed to having our children educated in a second language education programm. We are prepared to accept the enrolment of our children in French Immersion classes at any school in the city. We are appealing to you for your support and assistance in our cause." MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. BARRY: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the minister to stand up and support this petition and not only support it by words, but support it by action. I table the petitions. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: I am sure the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) would be glad of the opportunity to respond to the petition, and with leave from the members opposite, he can do that after I speak. But since the Justice portfolio has been brought into play in the comments made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) in quoting the petitioners , I would like an opportunity to respond briefly.

I would be grateful for a copy of the petition, I might say. Generally, two issues have been raised by the Provincial Human Rights Association and Canadian parents for French, with respect L947 27 May 1985 Vol XL to the current situation in St. John's, where it seems that the demand on the part of parents for their children entering French Immersion Kindergarten exceeds the number of spaces that are being made available by the two main school boards serving St. John' s, namely, the Avalon Consolidated School Board and the St. John's Roman Catholic School Board. Mr.

Speaker, the two issue are, number one, the correctness of the Avalon Consolidated Board admissions policy, a written policy which was made public recently and called into question. That policy clearly discriminated between children of families adhering to the Integrated Denomination, the denominations which have constitutional rights and which operate that school board on the one hand, and children whose families are not affiliated with those denominations nor with the other denominations which operate schools in this city..

These could oe families which are Jewish, which are Hindu, Buddist or of other non-Christian religions, or families of some Christian such as Baptists, which do not have constitutional rights in education in this Province, or they could be families which do not profess to have any religious convictions or which claim to be non-practicing. Now, Mr. Speaker, that first question has been examined by the lawyers of the Department of Justice, and an opinion was given the Department of Education to the effect that policy violates the Schools Act. The Minister of Education (Mr.

Hearn) is dealing with the Avalon Consolidated School Board, and it thought that the Board will correct the situation. I think it is better No. 19 [UNEDITED] R947

for the Minister of Education to elaborate on that. I would like to say as an aside that to my knowledge no other school board in this Province has such a discriminatory policy or has an admissions policy with respect to French Immersion which violates the law. So ~e have that one board out of the thirty-five boards in the Province which has that kind of a French Immerison admissions policy which clashes with the Schools Act. Mr. Speaker, the other issue is whether all those parents in this Province who want their children to be in French Immersion (

a) have a right to have their children so enrolled, or (b), have a good moral case. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in agreeing that they probably have a good moral case, since there a lot of advantages associated with French Immersion education which have been documented. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave! By leavel MR. SPEAKER: By leave? MR. BARRY: There were two petitions, Mr. Speaker, so maybe we can be a bit more generous and maybe have a couple more speakers. MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, the Constitution of this country, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not give any one in this country the right to have their children enrolled in French Immersion. The L948 27 May 1985 Vol XL Constitution does give official language education rights, and in this Province that probably means that in the case of the Francophone minority, some p'arents have acquired a right of having their children instructed in French. That is where the numbers of such children warrants the provision to them of French instruction out of public funds. But, Mr. Speaker, that has not been suggested by the parents in st.

John's nor the Human Rights Association, that the people in St. John's who are asking for French Immerison for their children fall into that category, because, from what I know, most, if not all, of the people are Anglophone and want French Immerison education for their children so they can acquire a second language. Mr.

Speaker, as good a moral claim as those people may have to French Immersion education for their children, as many advantages as has been proven to accrue from French Immersion education, still there is no constitutional entitlement to parents to chose French Immersion or regular English education. MR. BARRY: You are really flogging legal technicalities. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, what I have said publicly is that French Immersion, music programmes in the schools, mathematics programmes in the schools, science programmes in the schools, and I could go on and on and on, are very desirable.

Parents and children have moral entitlement to those programmes and others but the precise selection of programmes to be offered in our schools, and the No. 19 [UNEDITED} R948

admissions criteria from them, for the most part, have to be determined within the framework that is in place. The Department of Education have prescribed minimum curriculum standards for all children in the Province. Above and beyond that course offerings, and admissions of students to programmes, are determined through a democratic process of interaction. French Immersion is a notable exception to most programmes in this Province in that parents have been in the forefront of calling for the programmes.

In just about every case where French Immersion programmes have started in this province it comes out through parent initiative and parent pressure. Mr. Speaker, that parental effort has been consistently supported by this provincial government, by our Department of Education.

While the federal government has had a major leadership role in French Immersion education and provided a certain amount of funding, the fact remains that the provincial government have co-operated in a meaningful way and it is the provincial government that is paying the bulk of the cost of French Immersion education in this Province and will gradually assume a greater and greater portion of the cost. And, Mr. Speaker, we have seen rapid growth in French Immersion enrollment in the larger centres of our Province.

As an aside I should point out, we have also seen the start of a first language, French education programme, for the indigenous French population of this Province on the Western side of the Port au Port Peninsula and the provincial government set a leadership role L949 27 May 1985 Vol XL there in supporting the Francophone activists in Mainland and Cape St. George in getting that established, and it is now part of a study to determine medium to long term arrangements for the Francophone population in that area. To sum up, Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Justice has interpreted the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as well as the Schools Act, as they apply to the current situation in St. John's where parental demand exceeds school boards' supply of French Immersion seats. The Department of Education is dealing with the situation in a reasonable and fair way, and Mr. Speaker, this provincial government has been consistently supportive of efforts of parents in our Province to have good French Immersion education programmes. Not only that, Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Education has been continually improving core French programming for the Anglophone majority. And for the majority' of our student population in rural parts of the Province who do not have any access yet to French Immersion programmes. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. member for St. John's East Extern. MR. HICKEY: I would like to add my support to the petition presented, Mr. Speaker, for a number of reasons.

First of all, I have two or three children living in my constituency who are being shortchanged there and notwithstanding the very elucid statement by my colleague, the Attorney General, I feel Mr. Speaker, that there are a couple No. 19 [UNEDITED] R949

of things that should be said here. Whether parents have a right under the Constitution to have their children educated in the French language as a matter of right is one thing. What seems to me, Mr. Speaker, to be of far greater importance here, or at least the danger of it, is the very presence of the rancorous form of discrimination which violates the Charter of Rights so recently hailed in this country, and Mr.

Speaker, as my colleague pointed out, the provincial government is consistent in a number of ways on those issues I say to her and to my colleague, the Minister of Education, both, the provincial government is also very consistent and has been very consistent, Mr. Speaker, by setting a precedent for the first time in the history of this Province or for that matter when we were a country and I am not sure if this ever happened in Canada before, where the rights of senior citizens were denied by a denomination in this Province, and it cost the taxpayers of thi.s Province, Mr.

Speaker, over $4 million to make sure that those rights were recognized by the expropriation of a senior citizens home. And that is a black mark, Mr. Speaker, on the history of this Province, the fact that that has to be done and I happened to have been the minister at the time. So, Mr. Speake r, let us make sure we are consistent in any area where there is discrimination against religion, whatever type it might be, in the case of the senior citizens it was a different story, they were denied freedom to worship as they wanted to, as they should have been able to.

In this particular instance where a school board denies admission and acknowledges, Mr. Speaker, that L950 27 May 1985 Vol XL that has something to do with the religion of the parents and that family or those children is to say the least going back to the dark ages and both ministers, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me, should indeed act swiftly to make sure the message has gotten across to that school board loud and clear, that that is not to be tolerated, that is not to be entertained for one second. The very suggestion that this day and age, Mr.

Speaker, someone is going to be discriminated against on any issue based on the grounds of religion is repugnant, it is uncivilized and the quicker it is stamped out, Mr. Speaker, the better. I am not for . one moment suggesting there is anything wrong with, I am sure there is lots wrong with the denominational system, it is not perfect, I guess what I want to say, Mr. Speaker, I am not speaking against the Denominational Education System in this Province. It is something that a lot of our people cherish, it is a tradition and while it is costly we have preserved things which are costly before and I for one, Mr.

Speaker, am not prepared to say that the denominational system of education should be weakened or done away with or anything else. I want to make sure that my point of view is made crystal clear o~ that. That is not what we are talking about here. we are talking about the rankest form of discrimination that anyone could possibly identify and I remember only too well, Mr. Speaker, a few dark days during the episode of the Escasoni Senior Citizens Home where bigotry was thriving in the most shameful way that one could ever possibly comprehend. Let us make sure, Mr.

Speaker, we do not even get close or border something again which No. 19 [UNEDITED] R950

has inherent in it the dangers and the disadvantages as well as the hatred and everything else that flows from this kind of episode. My family and I were at the receiving end of it ourselves, threats on lives and this kind of thing. That is what you get into, Mr. Speaker, when you get into an issue of bigotry, of religious discrimination. Let us squat it . quickly. There is an old saying, Mr. Speaker, that we should not use an elephant to squat a fly. Let me say to my two hon. colleagues, this is a case where the elephant should be used to squat the fly and move quickly and stamp it out once and for all. AN BON.

MEMBER: I would like to speak in support of this last petition for a few moments, if I may? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): We have already had to supporters for that petition. MR. BARRY: two Mr. Speaker, I understand the minister wants to rise and if we could have a member from this side and the minister, by leave, to speak to these since there were two petitions. MR. MARSHALL: I just want to respond. There is an order of government business that we would like to get onto.

I know with all open heart over on this side everybody says we will give leave and we will go off and debate this matter but can we confine it to two more, five minutes each, and not go on ad nauseam and ad infinitum? So we do two, one each. MR. SPEAKER: Is agreed to have one on each side by leave? L951 27 May 1985 Vol XL SOME BON. MEMBERS : By leave. MR. SPEAKER: Leave is granted. MR. BARRY: Let the minister go first. MR. MARSHALL: The minister should clean-up speaker. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Come on. MR. MARSHALL: be the There is one on this side now, there is one on that side.

If you want to speak go on and speak if not (inaudible). MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: I would like to speak in support of this petition. I am glad to · see the former Minister of Education also spoke in strong support of the prayer of the petition. MR. TULK: No, she did not. She just spoke. MR. BAKER: I thought she did. MS VERGE: I supported (inaudible). MR. TULK: Are you going to support (inaudible). (Inaudible) the House in (inaudible) or are you just going to (inaudible), AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). No. 19 [UNEDITED] R951

MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, there is no way that I could ever support religious discrimination of any kind in any programme that is offered in the schools. However, I would like to point out to the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) that with regards to French education in the schools, and I could also point this out to the former Minister of Education, that they have got a tiger by the tail whether they realize it or not.

You see a programme was brought into our school system, it was brought in as I understand, with help from the federal government who would pay extra teacher units to provide French Immersion instruction in our schools. There was a certain amount of funds made available and these funds were not extended beyond the first year in school. Now I really believe that the first reason why the Department of Education got involved with this was the idea to get an extra teacher, they are getting an extra teaching unit in their school. However, as the classes spread throughout the school a number of things happened.

First of all, I think it caught on a lot more rapidly and there was a lot more demand for it than the Department of Education realized. MR. TULK: Great. MR. BAKER: Certainly it is great. However, there are associated problems with this and this increased demand is what is causing the discrimination thing right now. There are problems from the point of view that there are not enough French Immersion teachers allocated to L952 27 May 1985 Vol XL school to handle the demand. There are not enough French teachers assigned to school to handle even the core French demand.

People are in lines waiting to get their kids in kindergarten and a decision is made in kindergarten as to whether that child will have French Immersion and become bilingual. It is a kind of forced screening at the stage of kindergarten. That, in itself, means that there has to be, in effect, discrimination one way or another, whether it is religious discrimination or discrimination because some parents are out of town when the time for registration comes.

And because they are out of town and they could not get to the school to register their child, or because they do not buy newspapers or hear the announcements, therefore, they are at the end of the line and cannot get into the French Immersion programme. There are all kinds of discrimination ·associated with the French Immersion programmes. And the other side of it, Mr. Speaker, is that if the Department of Education were to have completely free enrolment in French Immersion, then we would have a a problem with our teaching staff in the Province, most of whom are not bilingual.

So there is a real problem involved here. And I would like to point out to the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn), in connection with this petition, he has a tiger by the tail, and pretty soon, somebody had better look into this situation and make some basic, fundamental, philosophical policy decisions before we are standing up in this House half-a-dozen times a day with petitions from No. 19 [UNEDITED] R952

angry people concerned with the French Immersion programme. Sometime soon, he is going to have to take some responsibility in this regard and we cannot just say, let it work its way through the system. We are going to have to make some basic, fundamental, philosophical decision with regard to the French Immersion programme in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank the hen. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) for bringing the petition to the House.

It is a copy of the petition that was presented last week and a number of us have received copies of "the petition. It expresses the concerns of a group of people who have had problems getting their children into the French Immersion classes. The Leader of the Opposition mention the number ~ixty-six, I believe, in the beginning; that has changed considerably, I have been informed by the representatives of the parents involved. We do have well, that depends upon the approval of two applications already before the Secretary of State.

The funding for the French Immersion classes does come from the Secretary of State, it is a joint agreement. The requests come to our department, and we have never turned down a request from a school board to introduce a French Immersion class. Requests are forwarded to the Secretary of State. There are two applications L953 27 May 1985 Vol XL in already from the St. John's board for two new start-up classes this coming year. That will alleviate partially the problems we face.

I understand at present there are about twenty-three children so far, who have not been identified with a pos~tion in the French Immersion for this coming year. We are presently working on that and hopefully, within a short time, so parents can make certain plans, we might have a solution to that problem. At least, we are working together with the parents and the boards to try to find a solution to that problem. There were two problems, however, identified in the petition, number one, getting the children into the class generally.

I just noted that we have been able to accommodate most of them and we are working to hopefully ·accommodate the rest. The other problem centered on the discrimination aspect, whereby some children were not admitted to the various French Immersion classes on the . basis of discrimination. Now, that issue also has been addressed, and I would like to assure the hen. the member for St. John • s East Extern (Mr. Hickey) that we moved immediately on that and the clarification of the act was made to the school board involved and we left absolutely no doubt on where we stood on the matter.

There could be, perhaps, some question on the wording of

Section 83, and I would like to assure the hen. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) that if that is brought into contention, we have no hesitation whatsoever in recommending some changes in the wording that will make it quite clear that we cannot discriminate No. 19 [UNEDITED] R953

in admitting students into our schools or into our classes. So, these issues hopefully have been addressed. I would like to elaborate a little on the issue raised by the hon. the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) , when he said that we have a tiger by the tail. There is no doubt about that. However, having a tiger by the tail can be a lot of fun sometimes; you do not know where he is going to take you. And, certainly, in this case, we want to make sure whe~e we are going to end up.

Once we realized that this was a problem, not only now in relation to Immersion and kindergarten up to Grade III, but where it was going to lead - if I remember correctly, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry), speaking last day on the petition, mentioned that the teachers were concerned because we are getting into a lot of French in our schools and we want to keep turning out students who are bilingual, we want to get into Immersion. Then, of course, later Immersion, etc. will require more and more teachers who are biling~al and we might not be able to cope with it within our Province.

This, of course, is a challenge to our teachers, but the concern is also there that we may not be able to cope with it right now. We have made plans to set up a committee involving all agencies of education, the department, the N.T.A., Memorial University and the parents group concerns and, of course, the other agencies, the boards and so on, involved. This committee will investigate thoroughly all problems associated L954 27 May 1985 Vol XL with French Immersion and French in our schools, generally.

And hoping the recommendations that come back from that with the input of the people out in the field will be very positive and will be able to identify where this sudden interest in French is goi~g to take us and we can then make sure that we prepare ourselves to cope with the problems that will arise in the future. I would also like to mention that a lot of parents have said to us, we are not really sure whether we go along with complete Immersion, perhaps we should have a more solid core in the regular programming in relation to French.

Right now this year we will be introducing French in Kindergarten, in some classes, just as part of the regular programming and then, of course, we will be moving up through the grades with a basic core in French which will alleviate a lot of concerns that people have. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Before calling Orders of the Day I would like to welcome to the galleries Mayor Bill Coady and Deputy Mayor Martin Hammond of Jean de Bay from the district of Burin in Placentia West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! Orders of the Day MR. MARSHALL: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1, the Budget debate.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. No. 19 [UNEDITED] R954

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have a few more remarks to make before completing my comments on the Budget debate. I would like to have one ' more try at bringing the government's attention to the serious social problem that we have as a result of youth unemployment. There are studies which have been carried out in this Province, Mr. Speaker, that should give government cause for concern. I would refer specifically to several years ago to a report prepared by the Canadian Mental Health Association in 1983, which is entitled Unemployment Its Impact On Body And Soul. Mr.

Speaker, this report documents the very serious psychological impact that results because of unemployment. And I have to say that the numbers of people I have coming into my office recently and detailing some of their own personal history would, Mr. Speaker, back up the conclusions that are arrived at in this report. I realize that it is too much to go into completely, but just to give us a

summary fact sheet here, and this is back in 1983, the reality is worse since then. The

summary, Mr. Speaker, that was arrived at here would indicate that at that point in time Canada's real level of unemployment is over 2 million people. Most official statistics underestimate reality. Mr. Speaker, that is still true, I believe. Mr.

Speaker, we have another report that was carried out in Newfoundland, Now That We Have Burnt Our Boats, A Report of the People's Commission On Unemployment and this report went into that reality in Newfoundland the fact that the official L955 27 May 1985 Vol XL statistics do not go anywhere as close to the actual reality because of the numbers of people who have dropped out of the labour force as a result of giving up and no longer seeking employment, so they are not included in the figures that we get from Statistics Canada. The

summary for Canada as a whole at that point in time was that Canada's real unemployment rate was over 19 per cent. Well our actual rate, our official rate is over 19 per cent. It went as high as 26 per cent, Mr. Speaker, and is probably double that judging by the figures for Canada as a whole. Mr.

Speaker, some of the facts that they mentioned is that the unemployment rate among female heads of households, lone employed mothers is 65 per cent greater than for male heads of households, and in a little while I want to go back to the federal budget and mention what a dismal failure that was . in terms of living up to the expectations of women in this country. There were many promises made as to what would be done for the working woman. There were promises with respect to improvements in the pension legislation of this country and that was totally ignored, another breach of faith by Mr.

Mulroney and the federal budget. Mr. Speaker, the duration of unemployment increases with age. I think that is an understandable statistic. The average length of unemployment for youth is fifteen weeks, while for those over age forty-five the average length is twenty-one weeks. Now that is a Canadian statistic, that does not give anywhere near the reality in this Province, where the average length for youth and for those No. 19 [UNEDITED] R955

over age forty-five is by the looks of it is about infinity. Mr. Speaker, in addition to this report, Unemployment, Its Impact On Body And Soul we have a report reported for the Newfoundland and Labrador Advisory Council by Research Associates which developed selected social and psychological correlates of youth unemployment in Newfoundland and Labrador. This, Mr. Speaker, was done back in 1982. That just gives a sample of a survey of 1891 young people was taken at that point in time, through a telephone survey. Mr.

Speaker at that time 42.1 per cent were unemployed at the time of the survey; 47.3 per cent of those currently employed were engaged in part-time, temporary or occasional work; 75 per cent of these were considered under employed. The matter has gotten worse rather than better in the last couple of years, Mr. Speaker. This report developed figures for different parts of Newfoundland. They went to the West Coast, the Northern Peninsula, and Labrador and arrived at 48.9 per cent rate of unemployment. Central Newfoundland and the Northeast Coast 47.8 per cent, in rural 47.9 per cent just as an example. Mr.

Speaker, there is another report which was carried out by Professor Robert H. Hill. Dr. Hill did this for the Community Services Council in February 1983 and this report is called, The Meaning of Work and the Reality of Unemployment in the Newfoundland Context. This is quite a lengthy study, Mr. Speaker. It had a number of researchers involved in carrying out this work. And it is very L956 27 May 1985 Vol XL relevant with respect to certain specific areas of the Province as well. This has a chapter, Mr.

Speaker, on social and psychological consequences of unemployment and I would just like to refer to some of these. There are specific areas mentioned by the way, Port Hope Simpson, Aquaforte, Harbour Breton, Lewisporte in this particular report. There are relationships looked at in terms of unemployment and mortality as well as the impact on mental health. I will just dig that out, this particular reference is a study done by Clinton S. Herrick and it was an attempt to arrive at a correlation between the death rate and unemployment and, Mr.

Speaker, it was found there that among men under forty-five years of age unemployed men in receipt of regular unemploY,IIlent benefits had higher age specific death rates than a controlled group consisting of all other men under forty-five. So we have for that particular group at least, Mr.

Speaker, a problem which apparently the pressures of unemployment and so forth leads to an earlier than normal death, but in addition we have the psychological impacts during the course of a person's life time, I will just refer to a few of the conclusions that were arrived at from this study where we have a discussion of the impact on social relationships, there are some extracts from interviews with individuals. Most people look at them - that is unemployed youth being referred to - as young punks, they dropped out of school, they buy old cars or motorcycles so they can drive around town making a big noise.

A lot of them do not want work. They hang around the clubs. Like I say their average education is No. 19 [UNEDITED] R956

::I probably Grade VIII, they are not interested in training, they will not go anywhere to look for work, or most of them will not, they just hang around and complain. Most people would not even hire them because their reputation has been preceeded them.

Now the report talks about, "While such comments are the stuff that local and national ste:r:otypes are made of they fail completely to comprehend the situation faced by the local unemployed young adults in the community many of whom had not only finished high school and completed post secondary training courses but had also attempted migration but returned to the community after failing to find permanent jobs on the Mainland." So what you have is a false impression often in many communities where the young people themselves are blamed by those members of the community who are working as though it were their fault.

And the feeling is there that they had quit school, that they had given up too early on improving their education and so forth when the reality is that in many cases these young people have gone as far as they can in school, they are highly qualified for employment, they have made serious efforts, they have gone away seeking work, as well as exhausting all the avenues for employment in their community, and they finally seem to give up. It makes you wonder, Mr. Speaker, who can blame them.

How many years can you expect young people to be battered from pillar to post before they despair of ever finding a satisfactory long-term job? Now, this is the type of situation that the apathy and the neglect of members opposite, of L957 27 May 1985 Vol XL government, are permitting to continue in this Province. There are no real, new job initiatives, no new job creation ideas or programmes coming forward. Members opposite seem to be complacently accepting that this is the natural order of things.

Well, I can tell you that Newfoundland and Labrador is not going to be a pretty place to live in a few more years if this high level of unemployment amongst our young people continues. It is not going to be a place that we are going to be able to point to with pride, Mr. Speaker, if we continue to have this large percentage of our young people walking the streets and unable to find work. There are interviews with young people here, Mr. Speaker. I will just read out one interview. "I find this sitting around all day drags me out with nothing to do, no responsibilities, really.

In the night time I just find time goes slow. I stay up until two or· three, sometimes later than that. My girlfriend gets .off work ·at five so I pick her up and we have supper. Then in the night time we go out to the club and have a few drinks at the club. It is good for her -" AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. BARRY: I would like to table the member opposite on a - I better be nice here, I was going to say on the sort of table that you would find on a stage and do to him what should be done to any ten cent codfish. AN HON. MEMBER: That tells how much you know about codfish. Where do you buy one for ten cents?

No. 19 [UNEDITED] R957

MR. BARRY: I am just comparing the size of the codfish's brain. The size of a codfish you would have to get to get the same size brain that we have in the member opposite, if you judge by the comments that are coming across the floor there. Mr. Speaker, the person interviewed goes on to say, that for him going out in a social atmosphere is just depressing. 'When I was doing these odd jobs around town I would start work at nine o'clock in the morning, it would feel good to be working and when five o'clock came it was different.

You would just sit back and say, well your work is done for the day, that much is filled. Then in the nighttime it used to be so good, it would just slip by. A couple of good shows coming on TV, sit back and sip on a few beer. I used to love it. The weekend does not mean anything to me now, if it is a Monday or a Sunday or Thursday it do~s not matter, · it definitely does not matter.' Now this is an example of the way a person's life becomes adrift if they are not able to get the self satisfaction that comes from doing a hard days work for a good days pay.

Mr Speaker, there are tables on unemployment and boredom, unemployment and mental depression, all of which show that we have a very, very, serious, an increasing serious problem that comes from unemployment. There are sections on unemployment and the use of alcohol, a definite relationship between unemployment and increased use of alcohol and other drugs. They found that in two larger towns, Stephenville and L958 27 May 1985 Vol XL Lewis porte. Mr.

Speaker, they have tables here with respect to the increasing social problem resulting from alcohol and how that is made even more serious a problem as unemployment goes up. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am referring to these reports not because they are new, they have been around for awhile. But, Mr.

Speaker, I think we have to be reminded periodically of the fact that what we have out there in Newfoundland and Labrador, they are not just numbers, they are not just bald statistics, they are men and women who wake up in the morning, every day as we do, and who look out upon an increasingly gray and increasingly depressed and depressing social situation. They look at a Province, Mr. Speaker, that does not offer them hope. They look at a government whicp does not offer them hope. They look at a budget, which is what we are talking about here today, which does not offer them hope. We are not . going to, Mr.

Speaker, for the next three or four years in this Bouse go on as though it were business as usual. We in the Opposition are going to take every chance we get to drive the point hQ.me_ to members opposite that these are flesh and blood people that are suffering out there. And it is not good enough to hava a government that comes in complacently, smugly, and does not bring in new special programmes and initiatives to deal with this erosion away at the very essence of Newfoundland's society.

I suppose if you asked people from out of the Province a few years ago to describe in a nutshell the Newfoundlander, self-reliance and hospitality would be the two characteristics that would probably come to mind first. No. 19 [UNEDITED] R958

Well, the hospitality I suppose is still there although it is harder and harder for people to be hospitable if they have no money. Mr. Speaker, it is more and more difficult for people outside this Province to look down at us and say self-reliance is a predominate characteristic of the Newfoundland people when we see list after list of make-work projects which our people have been forced to fall back upon. That is a sad situation, Mr. Speaker, that members opposite have to take direct responsibility for. They only have to look back at what has happened to unemployment during their term in office.

Since January 1972 when the Conservatives went into power unemployment went from 9 per cent to 15 per cent in 1979, when the present administration came in, to over 26 per cent this year. I got out when I saw that there was no way I was going to be able to do anything. I got out when I saw that because of the likes of members on the other side, such as the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), that that government was going nowhere and the unemployment rate was going nowhere but up under members such as the member for St. John's East who, Mr. Speaker, is the epitome of Toryism.

If he felt it took putting every working person in this Province out on the streets, unemployed, in order to do away with the deficit, Mr. Speaker, he would do it. At one time he used to also look at the efficiency of government. He used to talk about fiscal management and fiscal responsibility and the efficiency of government as another way of bringing down the deficit.

In recent years, however, he has forgotten about efficiency, he has forgotten about getting the L959 27 May 1985 Vol XL biggest bang for your buck and the most out of the taxpayers dollar, he has forgotten about fiscal responsibility and now all he talks about is getting the deficit down by throwing people out of work, throwing them on the streets. The symbol of Toryism. The symbol of the cruel humanity of members opposite who could not give a fig for those who are on the unemployment lines. MR. MARSHALL: Tell us about the mistakes in 1972. AN HON. MEMBER: Three hundred per cent increase in unemployment. MR.

BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I had sense enough to know when the crowd opposite were going nowhere. MR. WARREN: You had sense enough to (inaudible). MR. TULK: That is the reason the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) wanted you, remember? MR. MARSHALL: Tell us abou:t buying (inaudible) return on the Lower Churchill. MR. BARRY: I see. The member for St. John' s East (Mr. Marshall) did not agree with the purchase of BRINCO and did not agree with the start on the Upper Churchill. You did not agree with the purchase of BRINCO? AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. BARRY: Does not, did not? AN HON. MEMBER: No. 19 [UNEDITED] R959

No. MR. BARRY: We are extracting a few secrets here now. That is an indication of the man of principle for you. What did he do? Put his head down under and waited and stayed being a nice party person so that he could get back in Cabinet after Premier Moores flung him out of Cabinet. Rather than raise any concerns about the BRINCO takeover he decided that he would be a quiet party person and then work his way back up in the Cabinet. As far as the Province was concerned, forget that, as far as standing up on a matter of principle, forget that. MR.

MARSHALL: Does the hon. member remember I voted against it whilst the hon. gentleman was a lap dog of this administration? MR. BARR Y : Party before principle is the motto of the member for St. John's East and party before Province. AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. BARR Y : That is the position of the member for St. John's East. I can understand the member being against the takeover of BRINCO, because that is not a completely Tory move, this moving into - MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible). MR. BARR Y : Well you told me you are against it. I have to accept that.

And I am now trying to analyze it and figure out why where you against it. And it is obviously because of your latent Toryism that L960 27 May 1985 Vol XL anything that involves taking over a private corporation would be completely beyond a real Tory. And maybe that is why the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Dinn) let Mr. Mulroney rip away this Newfoundland and Labrador Petroleum Corporation. Is that why the member for St. John's East, the Minister responsible for the offshore permitted Mr.

Mulroney to put the boots to the Province on the participation by the Newfoundland and Labrador Petroleum Corporation in Hibernia? That 40 per cent that the corporation was suppose to have, is that why the minister responsible for energy let Mr. Mulroney tell him - SOME BON. MEMBE RS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Is that Mr. Chretien that is - AN BON. MEMBER: Mr. canadian, Mr. Canadian. MR. BARRY: Now, the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) has raised Mr. Chretien. Mr. Chretien came down during this recent election and I told this at variaua political meetings, he came down and he spoke, Mr.

Speaker, down on the West Coast and talked about when he was a young lawyer in Shawnigan, and he talked about how Premier Duplessis came down to Shawnigan, and the people of Shawnigan needed a new bridge, And Mr. Duplessis said, you vote for me, you will get your bridge. No vote, no bridge 1 And Mr. Chretien got up in that meeting and he said, Mr. Duplessis I would rather swim that river on my back than cross your bridge on my belly. No. 19 [UNEDITED] R960

SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I think that the member for St. John's East and he members opposite have chosen the old belly route, they have gone from mad dogs to lap dogs in one federal election, Mr. Speaker. Before the last federal election the federal government was continuously harassed. I just looked at a news release that was sent up, the great contribution by the Minister of Forest, Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) when the Newfoundland Advisory Council on Youth expressed grave concern about reports such as this about the high numbers of young people being unemployed.

Guess what it was that the member for Grand Falls saw as the solution to youth unemployment? AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: He sent · a· Telex to Jean Chretien and to other federal ministers and protested. The next afternoon when he did not get a reply, and by this little device of getting the fast Telex and a quick denunciation of the federal Cabinet ministers he tried to divert attention away from his responsibility as a member of this government, for his responsibility for the Province of Newfoundland, he tried to divert attention to Jean Chretien. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Shame! Shamel MR.

BARRY: Jean Chretien gave another example of the hypocrisy of the change of attitude of members opposite from before the federal election until L961 27 May 1985 Vol XL after. He talked about the Winter drilling programme that we saw the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) remember denouncing the Government of Canada.

Jean Chretien said, 'when I was Minister of Energy last year I was a criminal, I was putting the lives of Newfoundlanders at risk when I permitted Winter drilling.' And he said, 'what happened this year?' He said, 'yes, I was putting them at risk because of the icebergs. ' He said, 'what has happened this year? Have all the icebergs become Tory?' And he said, 'maybe the icebergs have become Tory, because you do have Mr. Freeze. ' But he said, 'if the icebergs have become Tory, the people they have become Liberal. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR ·. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, those little antidotes sum up, Mr.

Speaker, the hypocrisy of members opposite when the federal government was continuously harassed, the Telex machine on the eighth floor here, was going morning, noon, and night, a twenty-four hour clicking teletape, Mr. Speaker, we had going up to Ottawa. And now we have scenes like the federal Forestry Minister (Mr. Merithew) deferring, and I suppose it is gone now because it is not in this year's budget, the Corner Brook Forestry Centre, the Provincial Forestry Minister (Mr. Simms) is not saying a word before it is done. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR.

BARRY: And then Forestry goes Centre up after is deferred No. 19 [UNEDITED] the for R961

Corner Brook, goes up has a cup of tea with the federal minister, and when he comes out of the meeting, he says, 'What a great meeting, I have not had a meeting like this for years. ' Come out of the meeting and he is asked, 'Well what about the Forestry Centre?' And the Newfoundland Minister said, 'Oh, no, I would not raise a nasty topic like that. We have such a good relationship, we have such good consultation, Mr. Speaker, I would not want to distrub mY host. I might not have gotten my cup of tea, if I did that.' Now, Mr. Speaker, that is an indication of the hypocrisy of members opposite.

Those former mad dogs have now become lap dogs, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Kissy! Kissy! MR. BARRY: Their entire strategy, Mr. Speaker, for improving this Province now is not to say a bad word about anybody in Ottawa. It does not matter how heavy the budget is. It does not matter ignoring the federal Forestry Centre for Corner Brook, it does not matter ignoring the unemployment crisis of this Province, it does not matter ignoring the Northern Fisheries Development Corporation, it does not matter bringing in user fees against our fishermen, cutting down expenditures for agriculture, Mr.

Speaker, ferry increases, gasoline increases which will drive up the cost of living and gut the tourism trade. It does not matter the Government of Canada can do all of this and members opposite it goes, the members opposite will not raise a voice in protest. L962 27 May 1985 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, it is sad to see what members opposite have come to. But, of course, they are in a trap. They put everything, Mr. Speaker, in the last election on their close relationship with the Government of Canada. They have put everything on this special relationship they have with the Government of Canada, everything, Mr. Speaker.

They promised the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that they would have this special relationship and that was going to deliver the goodies. Now, what goodies are being delivered? We see Allan MacEachen, in the Senate, a Liberal Senator, with more clout than the Premier of this Province. He is able to deliver for Cape Breton, Mr. Speaker, a tax free zone which will be in direct competition for jobs and for business with Newfoundland. Allan MacEachen delivered that. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. "BARRY: And now we have, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Heckle and Mr. Jibe moving over there again. I would like to ask Mr.

Jibe, the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), Where in this federal budget do we see this commitment not to remove that federal subsidy for shipyards? Where is it? AN RON. MEMBER: Tell us! MR. BARRY: Where is it? Where is it? MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: What is the member saying? No. 19 [UNEDITED] R962

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) nine, and there was not a (inaudible). MR. BARRY: Where is the commitment to keep that nine in there? That nine is going, as the member knows. That nine is going. And representation was made - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: . Oh, they are going to be on it. They are going to wait until that is gone and then they are going to be on it, Mr. Speaker, just like the Premier waited until after the budget was down and now he is going to be on it.

He is going to be going up to Ottawa to talk about getting Newfoundland a similar deal to Cape Breton, after the budget has been brought down, after the fact, consultation, Mr. Speaker. Consultation involves locking the barn door after everything is gone out of the barn. AN HON. MEMBER: They are great fighters, lost all their fights! MR. BARRY: fighters, Mr. like poor old Parkinsons disease is only a joke compared to members opposite. The old shuffle They are great They are Ali now. Speaker. Mohammed is gone! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it is going to be better tomorrow. AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) leadership reviews. L963 27 May 1985 Vol XL MR. BARRY: Yes, it is hard to know, Mr. Speaker, who is leading in the leadership race over there now. The member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) has suffered a severe setback by the slim majority during the election campaign. The member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) is coming on strong. The member for Mount Pearl (Mr. Windsor) is at least telling everybody that he is still in the lead, telling everybody who listens that he is there as the next leader.

Now, maybe the member for Ferryland, who has somewhat more experience in kicking off these leadership reviews, ·has developed a new strategy now, Mr. Speaker. The member for Fer ryland, I think, is playing his cards close to his chest, is playing his cards carefully. Now, Mr. Speaker, while we have the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) in her seat, I would like to just point out a few of the promises that were made to women in this country by her Tory friends in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker.

I think the general concensus is - and we will be very happy to hear the reaction, the response of the Minister of Justice - the general reaction is, I think-, to quote, that the federal budget is an unmitigated disaster for women's economic gains, Mr. Speaker. And I have to say that that is exactly as I see it, that the federal budget, Mr. Speaker, has ignored the promise that was made to people.

In fact, I will quote Louise Jelouve, Vice President of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women, who said yesterday, "The Tories have reneged on every promise made to women. n Does the Minister of Justice ( Ms Verge) agree with that? 8 The Tories have reneged on No. 19 [UNEDITED] R963

every promise made to women before the election. n The National Action Committee on the Status of Women have lobbied hard for pension improvements for women, but the government' s proposal to improve vesting rights in employer-sponsored pension plans will benefit few women. Only one-third of Canadian women in the labour force are enrolled in private pension plans, because most women work - AN HON. MEMBER: You mean there are no women in labour in Canada? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Do you see what the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) has to work with there in the back benches of her party?

Is the Minister of Justice proud of those remarks? No wonder she is blushing! MS VERGE: I do not blush and I am still waiting to hear what you think. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, most women work for small companies that have no employer-sponsored plans. And then we have - I think we have to set a little scene here to - and I realize it gets a little tense for the minister who comes on as a great feminist until it is her tardy colleagues in Ottawa who are undermining the women of this country and breaking faith with them and not living up to their promises.

Now let us see the member stand up and show us, is she a feminist or is she only a fair weather feminist? Is she only, Mr. Speaker, a facade of feminism? Is that what the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) is L964 27 May 1985 Vol XL putting up, a facade of feminism as long as it serves her partisan political purposes. And is she really, Mr. Speaker, a lap dog when it comes to being critical of the failure of her partisan colleagues in Ottawa to live up to their commitments to the women of this country? Where does she stand? MR. PATTERSON: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): Order, please!

A point of order, the han. member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: I would like to ask the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) does he stand up for women? MR. BARRY: I would like you to rule on that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On that point of order there is no point of order. MR. BARRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I realize, Mr. Speaker, that the male chauvinist who just got up on that point of order creates many difficulties as do many others in the member's caucus for her to get her views across. But, Mr.

Speaker, I am surprised, if this had been this time last year and you had the Vice-President of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women corning out and saying that the previous government's budget had not done enough for women, there would be press releases, there would be press conferences, there would be media day in and day out on the part of the Minister of Justice, where is she now, today? Because No. 19 [UNEDITED] R964

it is a Tory Government, a Tory budget, and a Tory breach of trust, with the· women of Canada, not a word, Mr. Speaker. Tongueless. MS VERGE: Let us hear your policies. MR. W. CARTER: You are the governors, govern. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the National Action Committee on the Status of Women had also pressed Ottawa to improve job training and creation programmes aimed at women. But the same Vice-President says, nThere seems to be nothing specific about that in the budget. n Nothing in terms of job creation for women in the budget. Now what is the Minister of Justice going to say to us about that?

Why has she not been on the airwaves of this Province criticizing those people who would bring down a budget and break trust with the women of this country? Mr. Speaker, we have a situation today in this Province unfortunately where we have members such as the member for Humber East, the Minister of Justice, prepared to shout long and loud for any particular interest group, whether it be women or otherwise, as long as it furthers their partisan political purposes. But the credibility, Mr.

Speaker, the credibility of the member for Humber East is severely damaged by this hypocrisy, by the hypocritical approach which is shown by a failure to comment on the neglect of women shown by the Conservative Government now in Ottawa. It is a very, very cynical approach that we see being taken by members L965 27 May 1985 Vol XL opposite. It is an approach that is designed, Mr. Speaker, to try and garner votes. AN HON. MEMBER: Intellectually dishonest. MR. BARRY: Intellectually dishonest, politically dishonest, Mr. Speaker. MS VERGE: What are your alternatives? MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, our alternative is to point out the deficiencies in the existing federal budget and to point out how little is being done and to say how much more should be done for women. Now, Mr. Speaker, we see the new Liberal Leader in the Province of Ontario committing himself as we commit ourselves here to equal pay for work of equal value. Now is the Minister of Justice committed to that and is her Cabinet commi~ted to that? Oh did you see that? ~he closes her eyes and she throws _her hands up, much as to say, nwell I cannot answer that. What can I do?n A good Liberal policy, equal pay for work of equal value.

All right? We have committed ourselves to that? Now what is the member for Humber East prepared to do, the Minister of Justice? And is she prepared to speak out against her colleagues in Cabinet if they do not come out with that policy? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: She answered the is the way she was like this. question. Here answered it. It Downcast eyes and like this, nWhat arms thrown up more can I do?n Now that is just No. 19 [UNEDITED] R965

one suggestion, there are many others, Mr. Speaker, that we have that we have made. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: We are in the course of a debate. When the minister introduces their legislation now on equal pay for work of equal value we will have a debate on women's issues but we are into a budget debate now and I made my point, I think. I think the minister herself has acknowledged her failures as a spokesperson for women, that was announced when the downcast eyes and the arm ·thrown up for equal pay for work of equal value. Mr.

Speaker, that was the extent of action for women in the federal budget, not just ignoring in the general way, but breaking faith. Having promised to do certain things, having promised to improve the pension arrangement for women, having promised to have job creation programmes for women specifically they ignored them. A breach of trust. So to sum it up, Mr. Speaker, it is a federal budget which is very much along the same lines as the provincial budget, as well it should be.

We have a situation where both the provincial and federal budgets, both Tory budgets, have ignored the crisis of unemployment that we have in this Province. Tory times are hard times and they are getting harder, unfortunately. We have, Mr. Speaker, pointed out that the provincial government has ignored the crisis of unemployment, the federal government has ignored that same crisis and we will not stand by, Mr. Speaker, and permit the government opposite to fail to L966 27 May 1985 Vol XL take responsibility to speak out to the Government of Canada because, Mr.

Speaker, what we see now are members opposite committing in their entire strategy to - not consultation - they call it consultation but it is not consultation, they say it is conciliation, it is not conciliation either. What is the word for what they are engaged in right now? I think, Mr. Speaker, it can only be called complete and total subservience, shoe licking, lap doggery. The Prime Minister of Canada has the cleanest shoes in the world and the colour of the tongues opposite depends upon what colour shoes the Prime Minister of Canada is wearing from day to day, Mr. Speaker. MR.

DAWE: The nose of the member opposite depends on (inaudible). AN HON. MEMBER: The Minister of pavement is real funny. He is (inaudible) • He is making his way to the leadership. MR. BARRY: The member for St. George's, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) does have difficulty getting out of the barnyard. MR. DAWE: Talk about your bingo games again and we will talk about Mr. Chretien's reading in the church out at St. George' s. It did not do you a lot of good, did it? You did not even win the bingo gantes. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I think we have a putative leader.

Maybe that is why he has come on as the statesmen. He has denied that he ever said that he would only pave Tory districts, he did not mean that. He is taking on a new image No. 19 [UNEDITED) R966

of statesmanship to get ready for the leadership of the party. Well, Mr. Speaker, we have him on tape and when he makes his run for the leadership we are going to have to question the statesmanship of the member for St. George's. Mr. Speaker, when you see a provincial budget come with, once again, less than 1 per cent of the budget dedicated to the fisheries, when you see a budget, Mr. Speaker, coming down with a decreasing percentage of the budget to Forest Resources and Lands , when you see, Mr.

Speaker, no new initiatives in the budget for job creation, when you see that the provincial Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms), still remaining totally silent on the moving of the federal Forest Center to Corner Brook, not a word, not a murmur, not a whimper, silence, Mr. Speaker, and there is no sign of any money in the budget for it, when we see this type of budget, when we see a budget that only pays lip service to day care in this Province, when we see a budget that gives no assurance to the arts community, Mr.

Speaker, that there is going to be nothing more than a continuation of government gross patronage in the distribution of funds, and that is the real reason why government has decided to control the distribution of these funds rather than giving it up to the representatives of the arts community who have been elected to the Arts Council, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Better watch what you are saying. Do not fall in bad favour. MR. BARRY: That is exactly what the technique L967 27 May 1985 Vol XL of the minister is.

To hope that the Opposition will fall in bad favour with the members of the arts community who are going out on the road with their little theatrical performances, who are going out to publish their little books, Mr. Speaker. That is the sort of sickness that we see now coming back into this Province. An attempt, Mr. Speaker, by the Premier and . by government to turn the press into the same lap dogs that they themselves have been turned into, to turn the Arts community into the same lap dog that they themselves have been turned into, Mr. Speaker. We will expect, Mr. Speaker, if this process continues AN BON.

MEMBER: He said there is no integrity there. MR. BARRY: No, there is no integrity in the process. It is not the Arts Council that is permitted to distribute the mo~ey. The government does not trust the Arts Council to distribute the. "money. MR. SIMMS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): Order, please! On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: I have to rise in my seat to take issue with what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) is saying. First of all, he has absolutely no proof, no