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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Tuesday, May 17, 2011 Morning Sitting Volume 22, Number 3

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS t uesday, May 17, 2011 Morning Sitting Page Orders of the Day c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 7071 e stimates: Ministry of e ducation h on. G. a bbott r . a ustin Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 7083 e stimates: Ministry of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations (continued) n. Macdonal d h on. S. Thomson V . huntington D. Donaldson

7071 tueSD a Y , MaY 17, 2011 The h ouse met at 10:03 a.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Prayers. Orders of the Day Hon. B. Penner: Good morning, Mr. Speaker. i call, in this h ouse, the estimates for the Ministry of e ducation and in c ommittee a, the estimates for the Ministry of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations. [1005] Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of e Ducation The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section b); D. black in the chair. The committee met at 10:06 a.m. on Vote 22: ministry operations, $5,241,877,000. Hon. G.

Abbott: if i may, Madam c hair, introduce at the outset here three of the very capable senior staff that will be assisting me during these estimates. t o my immediate right is James Gorman, who is my deputy minister. t o my immediate left is r ick Davis, who is superintendent of achievement with the ministry and an assistant deputy minister. k eith Miller, who is aDM responsible for resource management, is seated behind me in a discreet and yet supportive way. i welcome the questions of the opposition. R.

Austin: Thank you to the staff for being here and for all the work that they do in the weeks preceding this to prepare the minister for this estimates process. i'd like to begin by discussing something which i think one could honestly characterize as a constant irritant, a source of huge frustration to just about everybody who works in the field of education. i'm speaking, of course, about the bc eSiS computer system, something that prin- cipals and vice-principals use, that teachers have to use.

Ministry staff, of course, have to try and sort out some of the problems while they're trying to collect all of the data that's important for the ministry to gather. in January of this year the then Minister of e ducation, the member for Vancouver-f airview, said that a con - sultant would be hired to assess if bc eSiS was worth keeping. l ater on the current minister said: "it has been characterized by more problems than one would ever want from a new electronic information system, and the process of reviewing that continues, and we do hope to find some ways to make the bc eSiS system a better pro- duct in the future." My question is: could the minister advise the h ouse as to what the status of this review is?

Hon. G. Abbott: i thank the member for his question. Gartner c onsulting has indeed been engaged to look at bc eSiS and the improvement of that product. They have been meeting with all the school districts in the province to understand the experience and circumstance in all of the school districts. They have also met recently with the b.c. t eachers f ederation to discuss it with them. Their report is very close to completion, and we expect to see the product within weeks. [1010] R. Austin: So within weeks.

That's good to hear. c an i ask the minister how many school districts are currently using the bc eSiS system? Hon. G. Abbott: The answer to the skill-testing ques- tion is 56 school districts. R. Austin: c ould the minister also inform the h ouse as to the number of independent schools that are using the bc eSiS system? Hon. G.

Abbott: That's an even more profoundly skill-testing question than the earlier one. it is being tracked down, through the magic of blackberry and the computer world. but perhaps, rather than have the critic wait for the answer, we'll introduce it as it comes in, which will probably be a matter of minutes, but we shouldn't waste the time. R.

Austin: a nd now to a slightly more complicated skill-testing question. i have asked this question in pre - vious estimates and had to wait for several months to get an answer because it was not at hand. but hopefully now, having asked this question before, the information will have been gathered this time. i'd like to know from the minister: how much has the ministry spent to date on the bc eSiS system?

What is it costing the government to try to keep bc eSiS going in the short term, while perhaps a longer-term fix is chosen and implemented? a nd what does the minister expect to have spent overall on an ongoing basis for this system? Hon. G. Abbott: i've got more detail here than i'm sure the member ever dreamed of receiving in an esti - mates process, but i'm pleased to do that. in the years since 2003-2004, which were the initial years of expenditure with respect to this system: on capital, including licences and customizations, $15,899,598; on the operating side, software licences, o racle, $5,207,140;

british c olumbia Debates7072 t uesday, May 17, 2011 on operating and support over now almost a decade, $61.333 million; on incentive grants to school districts, $6,623,703. [1015] The gross operating costs were $73,163,843, produ - cing a grand total for capital and operating cost through the decade of $89,063,441. R.

Austin: Wow, that's an awful lot of money for a sys- tem that still doesn't work. c ould i ask if the ministry has got projected costs for an alternative system that meets the needs of the school system? o bviously, if the Gartner report comes in and says that in spite of all the money that's been put into this system, it simply is not salvageable…. h ow much has the ministry built into the current budget to cover the problems in the short term and start on a long-term solution?

What i'd like to know is: what are the projected costs for an alternative system, and what moneys have been put into this year's budget to cover the problems in the short term and start on a long-term solution, if indeed one is needed? Hon. G. Abbott: The first thing that we would say to the e ducation critic is that his assessment that the sys - tem does not work is neither fair nor accurate.

The system does work. it is a system which has had some challenges, but that is not uncharacteristic of large computerized sys- tems to deal with the very large cohort of students and the number of districts that we have across the province. We, in fact, feel that despite being a leader here, de - spite being one of the first in c anada, in n orth a merica, to move in this direction, the system has been improved. The code system, for example, has been corrected.

We are certainly feeling that the system is much improved, that it is working quite effectively. a s i said in the first response to the member's ques - tion, the company that we brought on to do the advising on the system is to advise us how the system can be fur - ther improved. a re there products that we can add to the system? [1020] but the experience here, i think, is probably remin - iscent of both the challenges and the opportunities that occur when one undertakes a bold initiative — for ex - ample, with the electronic health record in the Ministry of h ealth — to start having a comprehensive under - standing of patient information in the province.

Similarly, this is what we're attempting to do in respect of the students in the province. There are, i think, over half a million of them. That's a pretty big step to draw all that information together and manage it in an effective fashion, but we are confident that bc eSiS has improved and that it will be an important tool in terms of building a better education system in british c olumbia. R.

Austin: it's not as though i'm trying to make out that the system is completely useless. h owever, it does crash on a regular basis. in fact, a week ago today i was phoned by a member of the press. u sually i get phoned by frustrated teachers when the system completely crashes, but on this occa - sion i was called by a member of the press — let's give the press some due — a fellow in k amloops who follows this bc eSiS system very, very closely. h e said that just a week ago, once again, it had crashed. o bviously, a large system like this has to be able to have the capacity to undertake hundreds of people go - ing on it at any one time. i think it's at those particular times — you know, report card time; the beginning of a school year, when all the data has been put in for the creation of classes; etc. — that the system seems to have the biggest problems. i certainly want the minister to be aware….

Maybe he hasn't been doing the job long enough yet to have his e- mail box full of frustrated teachers, etc., but this still is very much an ongoing problem with bc eSiS. but i want to move on. in late 2010 the company that designed bc eSiS was bought over by Pearson, and they have announced that they're no longer even going to support bc eSiS after 2012. c an the minister confirm if this is true? a nd if so, in view of this, does the ministry intend on commit - ting funding support to assist school districts on moving ahead and away from this system — if, indeed, the Gartner report comes out and says that's the best thing for the government to do?

Hon. G. Abbott: We believe the system stability prob- lems which the member referenced have been resolved. i mentioned earlier a correction of codes. We believe that will be useful in terms of system stability. So we're satisfied that we're moving in the right direction with respect to that. a gain, there's probably no system in the world that doesn't periodically experience challenges. o bviously, we want to minimize those, and we're satisfied that we are moving in the direction of minimizing those.

The purpose of the Gartner report will be to review our options as a ministry and as a government in re - spect of the future of bc eSiS — whether the best option might be to support the system internally, to have the ministry attempt to manage it or to introduce a new sys- tem partnership with another firm.

Those are options which we are likely to see from Gartner. [1025] of course, when we are in receipt of the report some - time in the weeks ahead, we will begin the process of reviewing those options and making the best choice for not only the taxpayers of british c olumbia but the stu - dents and the school districts of british c olumbia.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 17, 2011 7073 R. Austin: once the government has reviewed the Gartner report, will they be making that report public? Hon. G. Abbott: We would be releasing that report in due course, in compliance with the rules of the province of british c olumbia. R.

Austin: The minister has alluded to the fact that there has been lots of input into the Gartner report from all those affected and all those who work with bc eSiS. a s the government looks at its responses once it receives that report, will they also be seeking input from those that use the system — teachers, administrators, board members — as to helping in making that decision? Hon. G. Abbott: Y es. R. Austin: i think that is the shortest answer i've ever heard from the Minister of e ducation in my six years here. one final question in regards to bc eSiS.

The min - ister mentioned that this is a complex system and that they were trying to bring in something new to british c olumbia to gather all of this kind of information. Did the ministry initially look at a system that was already doing this in another jurisdiction in c anada or even in n orth a merica, where the bugs may have already been put to rest, before deciding on a system that has cost us over $90 million and has still got problems? Hon. G. Abbott: Y es, we did.

The reality is that there were no off-the-shelf systems then, and there are no off- the-shelf systems today. if one hopes to do this kind of important work in a customized system, which we have…. i think, again, it has not been problem-free. n evertheless, it has been an important and constructive tool and will, as it is perfected, be an even better tool. R. Austin: Just one last point of clarification.

When the minister says the report will be released, does that mean it will be released freely or does that mean we'll have to do an foi request and wait several months to get the report? i'm taking the minister at his word that it'll simply be re- leased here in the house or whatever. Hon. G. Abbott: We expect it to be publicly avail - able, likely posted on the website. We don't expect that people would have to go through any foi process to have access to it. R.

Austin: i'd like to move on to another topic that i think has huge consequences not just for the edu - cation system but for the budget of the province of british c olumbia. i think it's fair to say that the debate on the hS t and the upcoming postal referendum on the h St is something that is gathering the minds of both the government and those of us in the opposition, because it'll have the most significance in terms of its final result. if we can agree on that — that the h St debate has the single largest effect on our budget — i think, hopefully, the minister would agree that the recent Supreme c ourt decision is perhaps some- thing that not only is concentrating the minds of himself and his staff but probably also has the second-largest im- pact on the overall budget of british c olumbia. i'm speaking, of course, to the results of what has come down as a result of bills 27 and 28 being ruled unconsti- tutional here in british c olumbia and the fact that class size and composition were removed from not just the bar- gaining process but the process by which our education system decides on the number of children in classrooms and the number of children with special needs. [1030] That, of course, had a huge effect throughout the edu- cation system in the intervening years.

Y ou know, sometimes this is referred to, of course, by the teachers as their working conditions. What our teachers' working conditions are, of course, are students' learning conditions, and i think that is the thing that we have to concentrate on.

What is the best atmosphere, what is the best ratio, what is the best class composition so that a teacher is able to use their skills to provide the best education to every child in the class, both those who have been identified as having special needs and those who are typical learners? i want to get to the effects of this Supreme c ourt de- cision, and my question to the minister is: how much funding has been included to restore the teacher- librarians to the ratio that existed in 2001?

What does the minister expect his ministry to have to do to restore that kind of ratio which, obviously, is part of the negotia- tions as a result of the Supreme c ourt decision? Hon. G. Abbott: first, in reference to bill 28. There has been, very recently, as the member knows, a decision by the b.c. Supreme c ourt, as opposed to the Supreme c ourt of c anada, in respect of bill 28. The b.c. t eachers f ederation, post the Supreme c ourt of c anada decision on bill 29, commenced an action in b.c. Supreme c ourt on bills 27 and 28. The member has relatively accurately characterized what that was about.

The government, as the member knows, recently made a decision not to pursue an appeal with respect to the b.c. Supreme c ourt decision on bills 27 and 28. i advised the b.c . t eachers f ederation of that when government had made that decision. i indicated to them that we would be opening up discussions in re - spect of the structure of discussions, because the b.c . Supreme c ourt has given the parties one year to work through the issues that are associated with the judg - ment. That would take us through to, potentially, early a pril of 2012.

british c olumbia Debates7074 t uesday, May 17, 2011 So my suggestion to Susan l ambert, the president of the b.c. t eachers f ederation, was that a team from the government and bcPS ea would come forward to talk about structure. There may or may not be a structure similar to the discussions we had on bill 29, and there may or may not be a process that would be similar to that undertaken in bill 29. but it is far too early to speculate on costs. The b.c. Supreme c ourt decision doesn't oblige a discussion around costs; it obliges a discussion, which has not yet been undertaken.

We will have the earliest discussions around structure and process. h opefully those will be successful. The issue of dollars that might be necessary for remediation are certainly for another day and would be premature at this point. R. Austin: i would say this, that this decision will have huge ramifications, obviously. The minister is obviously not able today to give a specific figure as to what it will cost to remediate in terms of just teacher-librarians, which is the specific question i asked.

The minister, of course, in his prior role has been the Minister of h ealth. it's fair to characterize the h ealth Ministry, the largest one in our province, as having sev - eral cost drivers: pharmaceuticals, capital, the cost of salaries to those who work in health care. [1035] in teaching — and technology, of course, the huge drive in technology — and education, of course, the cost factor is different in the sense that one thing, salaries, makes up approximately 84 or 85 percent of every school district's expenditure. it's one thing, salaries, because in education it's largely about interaction between adults who are there, and we don't have a lot of other cost drivers.

My point i'm trying to make to the minister is that this court action and the effects of it will, during the process of negotiation, largely be around bodies, around put - ting people back — whether they be teacher-librarians; whether they be teachers themselves in terms of class sizes changing; or whether it be more teachers them - selves, especially special ed teachers — if we're going to handle the class composition. i've seen the figure put about of $275 million. i think that may have been used in the court case put forward by the teachers federation saying: "l ook, you know, if these bills, 27 and 28, hadn't been struck down, this is what we think the figure would have been in terms of the con- tinuing amount of funding going into education, above and beyond all of the increases that have happened in the intervening years between 2001 and now." My question to the minister is: what do the minister and his staff believe would have been that cost figure, had these bills not been put there?

Hon. G. Abbott: i thank the member for reminding me of my four-year adventure as the Minister of h ealth in this province. r egrettably, i find his argument inter - esting but not compelling with respect to the importance of the human resource component of education versus health. in both cases, salaries comprise the lion's share of ministry expenditures. it is a little bit larger in educa- tion than it is in health, but in both cases, they form the great majority of the costs of both systems. R.

Austin: i didn't hear the minister give an answer as to what he believes would have been the difference had bills 27 and 28 not been implemented. What is the difference in terms of the number of dollars that would have remained in the educational system to ensure the original class size and composition that was there prior to these bills coming in? Hon. G. Abbott: We have not undertaken that de - tailed work at this point. R. Austin: When that detailed work is completed, as the critic, would i be able to have access to that work? Hon. G. Abbott: i think the member may be proceed- ing from a false premise.

The decision by the b.c. Supreme c ourt on bills 27 and 28 did not order the removal of the law around class size and composition. it didn't, in short, order a specific remedy. it ordered a process, which we will be undertaking in the days and weeks ahead as the parties begin to discuss structure and process. [1040] R.

Austin: a m i wrong in concluding, though, that in this process, in this negotiation to remediate the uncon- stitutionality of these two bills…? a m i correct in saying that it does involve, or will involve, negotiations that will somehow restore things such as teacher-librarians, the number of teachers and the number of specialized eS l teachers? a m i correct in assuming that, or am i wrong on that? Hon. G. Abbott: it may. it would be presumptive of us to conclude what it will or will not include.

That will be to the parties as they proceed with their discus - sions with respect to structure and process and then, of course, the substantive elements that they'll be consid - ering in terms of addressing the issues raised by the b.c. Supreme c ourt decision. R. Austin: c an the minister tell us if…? When this negotiation is over, will class size and composition once again be part of the collective agreement, or is it the will of the government to try and negotiate this process out- side of the collective agreement? Hon. G. Abbott: it would be presumptive to conclude that. That is not clear at this point.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 17, 2011 7075 R. Austin: of course, i'm not a lawyer, but my under- standing of that ruling from the b.c. Supreme c ourt was that the government was unconstitutional in removing it from the collective bargaining process. is it therefore not fair to assume that the expectation from this judg - ment is that it would again be a part of the collective bargaining process? Hon. G. Abbott: The Supreme c ourt's decision was around the process that was followed, not the substan - tive decision. R. Austin: i would just end on this little

section by saying that i sincerely hope that this process of nego - tiation to remediate this problem is, in fact, one that ends up being sorted out and is beneficial to not only the taxpayers of british c olumbia but to all of the chil - dren that we serve in our public education system. i am getting a little bit worried, a little bit concerned from the minister's answers that we may end up going fur - ther up the court system to resolve this. i hope that doesn't happen. i just wanted to move over to another topic, and that is one of the foundation skills assessment. a s we all know, there's been a lot of controversy in this province around the f Sa s, and i'm totally aware of when they were brought in and who brought them in and what the in - tention was of having fSa tests in the province of british c olumbia. n evertheless, i think the minister, hopefully, will agree with me that they have become a huge bone of contention for a number of reasons. i would mention here that the minister and i were privy to a presentation done, i guess, about five or six weeks ago in Vancouver from a well-renowned and respected aca - demic who came over to give a presentation of some of the things that they had done in the country of f inland to make their education system be regarded as one of the best in the world. o ne of the things that he did a presentation on was the fact that they don't really have any nationwide statistical gathering of foundation skills. [1045] i'm sure the minister will remember a cartoon that was put up but had a very serious note in that cartoon.

That, of course, was one of a series of different animals — a giraffe, a monkey, a tiger, a lion. a person was standing behind these animals, and behind them was a tree.

The person, basically, in the cartoon said: "and now for your next test, you all get to climb the tree." While, of course, it was amusing, and i'm glad to see that the minister also found it amusing, it does point to one of the big problems around the whole notion of stan- dardized tests in the sense that all children are individuals and learn in different ways and at different times. t o have tests that are so specific around very small cri- teria, when children have all kinds of variety of skills….

Part of the problem with fSa s, of course, is that we are testing only a tiny proportion of an individual child's abilities in a very small thing. Then we are taking those statistics and putting them out there, especially in places like the f raser institute, where we are then judging our children as to their intelligence, based on this narrow reading of skills that is done in a snapshot — one day in grade 4; one day in grade 7; one day, later on, in second- ary teaching.

Y ou know, our concern around fSa s is that maybe our intention was good when we started with them, but now we need to look at some alternative. a nyway, those are just my thoughts on it, and i would welcome the minister to share his thoughts. i'd like to ask a specific question. We were told that the 2010-2011 participation rates would be available in March of this year. a re these available? Hon. G.

Abbott: first of all, i am certain that there are a large group of people across this province who have been sitting on the edge of their chairs waiting for the number of independent schools that are on the bc eSiS system, and that number is 130. So that important issue is resolved, i believe, unless there's a follow-up from the critic on that. on foundation skills assessment, first of all, i certainly would agree that the foundation skills assessment test has been controversial in some quarters. it has been par- ticularly controversial with the b.c. t eachers f ederation but certainly not exclusively with them.

There is always some debate in the world of educators about what is the optimal testing or assessment regime in a jurisdiction. t o me, the foundation skills assess - ment is a sound assessment. it is something which tells us how well a child is proceeding in terms of how well they can read, if they can they do basic math skills and if they can they express themselves in written form. it has value as a test. i think that were it not for what has been even more controversial, which is the f raser institute's ranking of schools based on both participation and outcome of fSa testing, this would not be the controversial issue that it is today. i know that the tf is particularly aggrieved of the f raser institute's rankings of schools on the basis of the fSa testing. but it is an area where…. i'm kind of a Sir k en r obinson fan with respect to this. f Sa is one test, and it appears to be a sound test.

Whether to take the results of that and rank schools is sound — it's a whole other question. but i think that, methodologically, the fSa is sound. it pro- vides us with important information about how children are proceeding in their education. i do think — and i've said this to the t eachers f ederation — that it is an im - portant test, but it is a test. Whether we can complement, supplement, improve — or any other number of things — the fSa, i think that's a great area for discussion. [1050]

british c olumbia Debates7076 t uesday, May 17, 2011 but i don't think it would necessarily be appropriate to throw out the fSa because schools were ranked, ap - propriately or inappropriately, based on that. a lso, a note to the final portion of the critic's question. fSa participation was up slightly in the most recent year, but the results are not yet finalized. but it looks like they're up slightly. R. Austin: When will these participation rates or the results be out? Hon. G. Abbott: The participation rate: a little bit more than 80 percent. We expect the results to be final - ized within the next few weeks.

R. Austin: is there a percentage benchmark below which the ministry would view participation rates as problematic — for example, if a school district had less than, say, 60 percent participation rates? if so, did any school districts fall below this mark in the last few years? Hon. G. Abbott: t o our knowledge, no district has ever fallen below 60 percent in terms of participation rates. The overall, as i've just mentioned, is just over 80 percent, and it appears that it came up slightly in the most recent year. but this is a test. The fSa is an as - sessment that is important to parents.

Many parents want to have an understanding of how their children are proceeding. i think it is also important from the perspective of taxpayers and their sense of how well their $5.8 billion overall investment in education is working. it's also im- portant to superintendents, principals, vice-principals and others involved in administration to have a sense of how it is proceeding. a gain, none of that goes to the question of the rank - ing of schools.

That is another question. t o me, this test is important, but again, the opportunity to think about whether this test should be supplemented, com - plemented, improved or otherwise altered is, i think, a live discussion. i'm probably going beyond what the critic has asked me and probably beyond what some of the very capable and knowledgable advisers around me might suggest, but to me, it is very important…. if we are going to have personalized, individualized learning in our schools, i think we need to start in kindergarten understanding how well children are proceeding — or kindergarten, grade 1, grade 2 — in terms of ability to read, ability to write and numeracy.

Those are, i think, critical areas for us. i think the fSa, nevertheless, remains an important tool. it is unfortu - nate that this has become a great political controversy, i think, because it is just an assessment. [1055] R.

Austin: i'd like to thank the minister for his re - marks, because in spite of what people sometimes think — that we in this h ouse don't agree on anything, or very much — in fact, i agree with a great deal of what the minister has just said. i also agree that there needs to be something else, maybe, to complement these fSa tests. i also agree wholeheartedly with the minister that one aspect of it that has made it very controversial is the notion that if somehow a particular school had low f Sa s, somehow either the teachers were incompetent in that school or somehow there was something dys - functional about that school. it is very worrying.

That's not the purpose of these tests, and it was never meant that way. i would just like to share with the minister a school in my region — not in my district, but one which i visited a number of years ago — a small community school in Prince r upert by the name of r oosevelt Park c ommunity School. i went there to visit them as a community schools coordinator in the year in which i believe they were ranked as "the worst school in british c olumbia." What i witnessed in that school was actually quite extraordinary.

Y ou had teachers who were commit - ted to their profession working under very challenging circumstances with a client population, a student popu - lation, that came from very challenged families. i think i'm right in saying that over 50 percent of the children at that school, their parents were living on so - cial assistance. There was a first n ations population, again, that was in excess of 50 percent.

We all know the challenges that many of the first n ations have in regards to their schooling as a result of the historical fact of what was done in the past around their educa - tion and the mistreatment of f irst n ations children and the consequences of that that have followed down the generations. i left that school very heartened by what i saw there. i remember driving back to t errace thinking, " boy, i wonder if you took these students and the circumstances of their lives and put them, say, in West Vancouver and asked the teachers in West Vancouver to teach these children, how well they would do," even though that year, i would imagine, the schools in West Vancouver were high up.

My point is that it just isn't right to take fSa test re - sults and then say that a school is bad or that the teachers are bad, or whatever.

There are so many factors that go beyond just what these fSa s are there to test. i think we need to have a very broad discussion on what the next steps are in terms of trying to find a solution and a bet - ter way of assessing. i would like, finally, to make one other remark, and that is in terms of parents wanting to know how their kids are doing. it's important for us to realize that teach- ers assess their children, their students, if not on a daily basis, on a weekly basis certainly. if parents want to

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 17, 2011 7077 know how their kids are doing, my suggestion would be to go and see their teachers or pick up the phone and ask them. t eachers are not testing their kids just once in grade 4 and once in grade 7; they test them every single week.

That's part of the practice of teachers. i would hope that would encourage the interaction between parents and their teachers, which i think is an - other very important aspect of our education system that we somehow fail to connect with. it's not simply the responsibility of professional educators to be educat - ing our children; it's the responsibility of us as parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, whatever. i would hope that when it comes to the whole notion of parents wanting to know how their kids are doing, they would be more proactive in simply interacting with their teachers on an ongoing basis to find out how their kids are doing. a nyway, those are some of my thoughts around fSa s. i would like to ask the minister this question. if school districts have low participation, and some of them have gone, i believe, as low as 30 percent, does that not make the whole process of data collecting not valid?

Does that not corrupt the data, if you have a school district which has such low participation rates? if that's the case, would it not be better, then, to do some kind of randomized testing as opposed to overall standardized testing? [1100] [l. r eid in the chair.] Hon. G. Abbott: i think there's a real danger in the h ouse here of consensus breaking out.

That, of course, is something we should guard against at all times. i very much appreciate the member's thoughtful comments in respect of the fSa, and it may well be that we do have something like consensus with respect to it. i'll make a couple of observations, because this is, i think, very important in terms of the future of education in the province. it's fair to say that we believe in more information to guide us rather than less, and the fSa is one source of that information. t ake the example — and i very much appreciate the member bringing this example forward — of r oosevelt e lementary, because i think both the member's perspec- tive on this and his analysis of it are important. r oosevelt e lementary was, in the f raser institute rank- ing, determined to be one of the weakest-performing schools. interesting, though, that the c .D. h owe institute, when they looked at the same data but factored in socio- economic variables, moved r oosevelt e lementary from the bottom of the heap in the f raser institute to at or near the top in terms of the c .D. h owe ranking of that same school. t o me, there's a huge object lesson there, and i think we're just starting to wrap our heads around how we deal with this. it is not the fSa that should be controversial. it should be how we take that data and how we analyze it and what we include in terms of forming our conclu - sions. in short, what are the dependent and independent variables that we might want to add to understand what that data really means?

That, i think, is hugely important, and i appreciate the member raising the issue of r oosevelt e lementary. i think there's a kind of object lesson there for the system, potentially, in terms of how it's not the data that's the challenge; it's how you manage the data and the conclu- sions that you draw from the data that is so important. in terms of the member's last question around a 30 percent participation rate — because we've now got the detail on this — the lowest participation rate by any school district ever was at f raser-c ascade at 59 percent, just below the 60 benchmark which the critic referenced earlier.

That's the lowest one that we're aware of ever. i guess it's fair to say that — and this, again, goes to the strength of the data — clearly, a participation rate of 100 percent by the cohort is going to yield stronger data than a 60 percent participation rate or an 80 per - cent participation rate. [1105] a gain, it would go back to the question of the fSa. is it the data that is produced by that test that is at issue, or is it the conclusions which one may appropriately or in- appropriately draw from it? R.

Austin: i thank the minister for his comments. i note that Sooke, i think, had a participation rate of 59 percent in '09 and '10. i'd like to go back just to repeat my question, though. if you have a statistical analysis that does require every child to participate and then you have districts…. Some of them are fairly large. i think the participation rate was around 70 percent in Vancouver one year, and that's a huge school district. i've only done statistics 101, so i'm not by any means an expert in statistics.

My understanding is that if you don't have a good participation rate and something where everybody is supposed to participate and you have individual school districts where 20 percent or 30 percent of the kids don't participate…. Does that not corrupt the data? in that case i would like to ask the minister: would his staff not recommend randomized testing, which would perhaps…? a gain, i'm not an expert in statistics, but my understanding is that in randomized testing, one can ex- tract a picture of a system without forcing every child in the system to get all tense and all stressed out to partici - pate in this.

That's my question. Hon. G. Abbott: i think it's fair to say that we believe the same reasons that prompted the nDP government of the late 1990s to bring in the fSa still exist. That is, if you

british c olumbia Debates7078 t uesday, May 17, 2011 have an fSa, it allows not only an opportunity for indi - vidual parents to understand how their kids may be doing in respect of reading, writing and numeracy, but it also provides a system perspective on how it is going. it also provides, very importantly, an opportunity to access subsamples — for example, aboriginal learners and how well they are doing, or children with special needs and how they're doing. i know, from the perspective of the child advocate, that it's very important for her that this test continue because it does provide for her and for Dr. k endall and others an opportunity to have a better understand - ing of how learning is proceeding for those vulnerable populations. i raise the issue about the late-'90s introduction of this test not to be provocative.

That's not my intention. i think, in fact, the member is very responsible in his comments with respect to this. i suspect, should he have the opportunity someday to be e ducation Minister, that he would probably… interjections. Hon. G. Abbott: Dream on.

Dream on. …want to deal with this in much the way that we are dealing with it now, which is to say that this is the fSa. c learly, it is a test. it provides us with useful data, both of a generalized and more specific nature. it is a useful test, but it is only a useful test, and one shouldn't form conclusions about schools or the school system based on it. [1110] a s the member rightly observed…. a gain, i appre - ciate him raising the example of r oosevelt e lementary, because that's kind of a classic example.

Depending on the variables that you attach to the data, it can completely change the sense of how well that school is doing. i agree with the member's suggestion that if you have a school that is comprised of 50 percent or more vul - nerable students, there are going to be some special challenges with respect to that school. i had this similar experience when the hospitals of our province were ranked.

My community hospital in Salmon a rm, which is a great little community hospital, was ranked very near the bottom — again, i thought unfairly because it had things like a palliative care unit inside the hospital at the time, and it tended to skew the results.

So what i'd say to the member is that, you know, this is an important issue for government, regardless of what the political stripe of government is. it's important for parents. it's important for administrators. l et's think about how we can improve our under - standing of what the data means, rather than try to strip ourselves of that data. i think it would be a retrogressive step. i'd be keen to know the member's view on this, but i believe it would be a retrogressive step to strip away that opportunity to gather data that we have at grade 4 fSa. a bsolutely, let's have the discussion about comple- menting, supplementing and improving, but to take it away, i think, would be a backwards step.

R. Austin: i thank the minister for his comments. i agree that we don't need to be removing in its entirety — certainly in its entirety — the data that we are gathering from fSa s. i'd like to go back, though, to the specificity of my original question here, which is: does the minis - ter believe that we could get this information — a picture, a snapshot of the system as a whole — through random sampling of this test, rather than it being systemwide? Hon. G. Abbott: h on. c hair, if i may interrupt my - self briefly to make an introduction in the gallery, with your permission. l eave granted.

Introductions by Members Hon. G. Abbott: in the gallery i see two gentlemen who i had the opportunity to meet with recently. They are f red h erfst and Peter f roese, who are leaders of the f ederation of independent Schools in the province. Perhaps they've just randomly found themselves in the gallery here during e ducation estimates. if so, it must be an utter delight for them to do so. We were just, in fact, speaking about the 130 independent schools that are on bc eSiS — for better or for worse, i'm sure, from your perspective.

That was one of the little things we talked about earlier. f red is retiring this year, so in addition to having the h ouse welcome the two distinguished gentlemen, per - haps we can, as a l egislature, wish f red all the best on his retirement. Debate Continued Hon. G. Abbott: in terms of randomized testing, again, it goes back to this point, which is important to the child advocate and important to many who are concerned about vulnerable populations in our prov - ince.

That is that with randomized testing, we would not have access to a subsample which would tell us how aboriginal learners or special needs learners or other vulnerable subsets are doing. That's the challenge. c ould randomized testing be used as a supplement, a complement or other to f Sa ? i think the answer is yes. We might, for example, think about doing it on a ran - domized basis at different grades but continuing to do it at grade 4. but again, that's an interesting conversa - tion or debate to have and not one that i'd be opposed at all to having. [1115]

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 17, 2011 7079 R. Austin: in terms of the minister's comments around fSa s, i think that he and i are doing a very good job of depoliticizing what has been quite a controversial subject outside the halls of this l egislature. My next question to the minister is this.

Given that this is a complex issue and given that there is certainly a consensus in terms of both sides of this h ouse trying to find solutions to some of the problems around the fSa s, could the minister tell the h ouse what is ongoing in terms of trying to bring in all the partners to have this discussion, which he and i have been having for the last little while, around fSa s?

What is the ministry do - ing right now to bring in the various stakeholders and partner groups to try and find a solution to this and to find a more comprehensive form of assessment that the minister talks about? i think it is an important thing to do. it's import - ant not just for government to have all these statistics; it's important for the taxpayers to know what their in - vestment is doing in terms of the success of the school system. but i also think it's a way to try and involve par- ents more in the system.

So my question again is: what is the ministry doing to bring the partners together to try and have this dialogue so we can have a better system of assessment? Hon. G. Abbott: i think it's fair to say, in response to the member's question, that fSa is of great interest to all of our educational partners. it is certainly an issue that is very important to the b.c .

School t rustees a ssociation. it's an issue of interest to the principals and vice-principals, an issue of interest to the superintendents, an issue of import- ance to parents and Pacs, and so on. i'd say, in respect of every discussion that i've had with every partner group in the educational system, this has come up. it is of particular consequence, of course, to the t eachers f ederation. That's where much of the controversy has been engendered, but it's important to all groups. it does form a part of all the ongoing discus - sions that we have with all the partner groups. R.

Austin: c ould the minister tell the h ouse what efforts the ministry is doing to encourage those school districts that have had low participation rates? if that is spotted, what does the ministry do to try and encourage that particular school district to try and up their partici- pation rates? Hon. G. Abbott: Much of the work with respect to the foundation skills assessment is undertaken by the ministry through superintendents and through super - intendents to principals and vice-principals across the province.

We provide them, for example, with partici - pation rates of all of the schools within their districts. We encourage principals and vice-principals to offer up to parents an opportunity to ask questions in respect of the fSa, to explore any of the areas of concern that par - ents might have around the fSa and i'd say, overall, to demystify what has become politically controversial but which is educationally valuable. That's the challenge we have ahead. i don't underesti - mate that challenge.

The fact that participation went up slightly is, i hope, an indicator that we can move forward. [1120] a gain, i think there needs to be that continuing im - portant discussion, though, about how we interpret the data — and we've had a good discussion of that and a very constructive discussion of that — but also how we ensure that we get the best possible pool of data by en - couraging participation. That's the challenge, i think, that we have as an education system. R.

Austin: i'd like to just move on and have a dis - cussion specifically around students with special needs. a s i'm sure the minister is aware, in the last number of years — and this may be partly as a result of bills 27 and 28, although not entirely — there has been a reduction of specialized teachers with eS l and special needs designa - tion, in terms of those specialized teachers where regular classroom teachers can go and access those specialized skills of a teacher who has been taught to help assess and help a child come up with strategies for a child that's been identified with special needs. it's kind of a vicious circle because, of course, as more children have been identified — say, in the last ten years — the number of kids who are then put on to the case - load of those teachers who have those specialized skills has increased their workload. i guess, naturally, teach - ers want to do what's best for themselves as well, and there have been some teachers who have said: "Well, you know what? it's not worth doing it. i just can't get to all the kids that i want to. i don't feel i'm valued. i'm going to go back into the classroom as a regular class - room teacher." That is what has been occurring, and i'm sure the minister is aware of that.

My question is this. is the ministry putting any special resources to provide for in-service training to ensure that teachers have the ne - cessary learning opportunities to help them deal with the increasingly complex world of educating students with special needs? [1125] Hon. G. Abbott: The issue of management of special needs in the classroom is a hugely important issue from my perspective. When i have the opportunity to talk not only to the t eachers f ederation but to individual teachers when i visit schools, invariably classroom com- position comes up as an important area.

That, generally speaking, involves the management of special needs in the classroom.

british c olumbia Debates7080 t uesday, May 17, 2011 i recognize that this is an area of great importance to teachers and to administrators in schools. i think it is an area where we can improve our management and our opportunities for special needs children in the schools. indeed, that's an area where i'm looking for - ward to, i hope, a very productive and constructive discussion with principals and vice-principals and with the t eachers f ederation and teachers about what it is we can do as a school system to ensure that every child has their optimal opportunity to succeed. a re there ways that we can improve the management, including the distribution of special needs in the class - room, to ensure that we find the optimal result?

That's a very important discussion, and i think it's fair to say that while this discussion has been going on for a while, from my perspective as a relatively new e ducation Minister, it's an early-stage discussion for me. o verall, in terms of special education teachers, and this doesn't include teacher-librarians…. We believe that there are, over the decade, about 700 fewer special education teachers.

We recognize, of course, that there are also about 59,000 fewer students in the education system than there were a decade ago, about a 10 per - cent reduction. but there are fewer special ed teachers, enrolled teachers. There are, however, 1,800 more special education as - sistants or teacher assistants in classrooms than there were a decade ago. So there's been a shift there. n ow, again, whether that's the optimal shift…. i think that's an area that is deserving of discussions. i do think this is an area where we can improve our effectiveness. R.

Austin: i would just comment on the minister's statement by pointing out that even though we do have 59,000 fewer students overall in the last decade, unfortunately the proportion of children identified as having special needs has not gone down anywhere to the same proportion as the overall student population. So we still have seen a large reduction of specialized teachers to deal with kids with special needs.

We've still seen quite a number of kids who are identified and need those specialized skills. i would also just comment, you know…. i'm not try - ing to denigrate in any way the important work that's done by teaching assistants. in fact, i used to be one for a couple of years. but the reality is that teaching assist - ants simply don't have the level of educational expertise to be able to deal with the challenges that many kids with special needs have.

We can be part of the support system, but at the end of the day, we still need to have those teachers in place who have gone and learned all those extra skills to be able to work with kids who have special needs. i'd like to ask the following question to the minis - ter. i'm from the northwest, so i'm just going to point out that the north coast and my own school district, 82, are examples of school districts that recognize that they have a higher proportion of children with special needs than is the provincial average. a s a result of that, they have to take a much larger proportion of their school budget that would normally go to typically learning kids and allocate it to kids with special needs. o therwise, they would simply have tens, if not hundreds, of kids completely falling through the cracks. [1130] My question is this. is the minister providing or go - ing to provide more direct funding directed to students with special needs so that school districts aren't having to take out of the general pot to augment those kids who have been identified but don't necessarily get the funding that would have been there if it was directed directly to special needs kids? i hope that makes sense to the minister.

Hon. G. Abbott: a gain, the member may get a greater volume of information here than he ever dreamed of from his very appropriate question. first of all, in terms of students with special needs, it is important to recognize that it remains a compelling challenge. indeed, as i acknowledged in my earlier an - swer, i do think it's an area where we can and should improve how the ministry works with superintendents and principals and vice-principals, how the principals and vice-principals work with parents and with students and with teachers. i think there's much that we can im - prove in this area.

Just so we're clear on baselines and so on here, there were, in the '05-06 school year, 61,275 students identi - fied with special needs. That has declined slightly and fairly predictably over time, so that in '10-11 we're now at 58,320. There has been a modest decline in terms of the identified students with special needs. it's not to say that the challenge has disappeared.

That's not the point of what i'm saying. it's just to give you a sense of the challenge that we have here. f rom '09-10 to '10-11 the overall enrolment of students with special needs again decreased by 381, although some groups of high-needs students continue to grow. boards of education received $382.9 million in levels 1, 2 and 3 supplemental funding in 2010-2011.

That's $58.3 million more than in 2009-2010. a gain for the information of the member, and i hope i'm not over - loading him here, the base amount for each of the three supplemental funding categories also increased in fis - cal '10-11. l evel 1 increased by $4,600 to $36,000 per student. l evel 2 increased by $2,300 to $18,300 per stu - dent. l evel 3 increased by $1,200 per student to $9,200 per student now. We are recognizing that this is an important challenge.

The numbers in terms of the challenge and the dollars available are encouraging, but i do think there is still much we can do if within the culture of school operations

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 17, 2011 7081 we have greater cooperation, collaboration between ad - ministration and teachers and parents, and so on. i think there is some room for improvement there. R. Austin: i'd like to comment…. l ooking at those numbers that the minister has just given me, i'd like to also speak to a group of children which teachers know all about.

So do administrators; i suspect that the min - istry does as well. [1135] They're sometimes referred to as grey-area kids — kids who, for one reason or another, are recognized by the classroom teacher as having some learning chal - lenges but who have not been identified and, therefore, don't qualify for any of these specific categories of fund- ing.

Y et they are present in the classroom and have, obviously, a huge influence in terms of the classroom dynamics. i'd like to ask the minister to share his views on this situation. in numerous school districts around the province, particularly those that are far away from a major urban centre, there are not the appropriate people, necessarily, there to do the testing. f or example, in my neck of the woods in northwest b.c. very often people have to fly up from Vancouver at huge cost to come and do the testing.

So a lot of teachers will recognize that they have one or two kids or what - ever in their classroom, but they've sort of even stopped bothering filing the paperwork, knowing that their school district doesn't have the financial resources to bring the person in to do the specialized testing.

Then, of course, they may not necessarily have enough funding in their envelope to put in place the ieP if that child was fortunate enough to get tested and recognized as having a learning challenge. c ould the minister comment about that and present some solutions as to how the ministry is going to deal with all of those kids? i would suspect that there are hundreds of them in british c olumbia who have not yet been tested, need to be tested and need to then get the correct supports in order for them to have the opportun- ity that we all want for every child in british c olumbia. Hon. G.

Abbott: The member began his question with the grey-area kids, which again acknowledges an important area. in the education system in the decade ahead, i think the most exciting possibility revolves around an area that is typically referred to as personalized learning or individualized learning or 21st-century learning, where we try to look at each child as they enter the system. c urrently, or this September, it will be full-day kin - dergarten. a s they enter kindergarten and move on to grade 1, grade 2, we put a greater emphasis in those very early years on identifying any barrier to learning that may exist among that very young cohort. i think we've increasingly recognized, as a ministry and as a government, how important it is to have a very early identification of any barriers to learning that may exist, optimally to pick those up in kindergarten and grade 1 and have a focused remediation of those issues in the early years. i think all of the scientific evidence that we have points to our best opportunity to remediate any skills gaps or any learning barriers being in that kindergarten to grade 4 period in the young learner's life.

That is a huge issue, i think, in the future of the system. The e ducation critic is right to identify it as an important area for discussion here and an important challenge to the ministry and to the education system in dealing with that. in

part it is a labour market challenge. There are some of the skilled professions that on a n orth a merican perspective are in very short supply. f or some of the important paraprofessionals, they are produced only by one program at ubc. it's always a challenge for the system to understand that if you need a test done, are there others in the sys - tem who can provide a sort of surrogate testing of those same issues? That's going to be an important discussion in the weeks, months and years ahead: how do we put that piece in place? t esting is really important in those early years. The member is right.

We see far too many kids, still, who kind of fall through the cracks in the early years. We find them at grades 5 or 6 with quite compelling challenges in reading, writing or numeracy. [1140] a s you get later into the school years, the challenge of turning around that shortfall is more and more and more difficult — not impossible, but more and more and more difficult. So our best shot at this is kindergarten to grade 4. That's why the testing piece is so important.

Government has committed to bringing some more resources forward to that. a gain, i think this goes back to all of our educational partners working together to, first of all, understand the nature of the challenge and, secondly, to really focus our attention on how to address those challenges around testing and effective remedi - ation of any shortfalls in learning areas. The Chair: h on. Members, the member for c hilliwack seeks leave to make an introduction. l eave granted. Introductions by Members J.

Les: i'd like the h ouse to join me this morning in welcoming to our gallery the a mbassador of k azakhstan, h is e xcellency Y erlan a bildaev. h e's on his first official visit to british c olumbia. Please join me in making him welcome to our precinct.

british c olumbia Debates7082 t uesday, May 17, 2011 Debate Continued R.

Austin: it's good to note that the minister recog - nizes the area of grey-area kids. i would comment that my experiences in the school system were such that i noticed that if children have difficulties at the begin - ning, even in grades 1 and 2, it very soon turns them off the whole education process. o bviously, if you're going to school every day as a very young child and you are getting frustrated and finding it not a pleas - ant experience, it doesn't make you enthusiastic for the whole learning process. a nd then, of course, it's down - hill from there. if we don't figure this out by grades 3 or 4, it is hugely challenging not just to remediate the child's specific learning challenges but to actually change their whole philosophical outlook as to what learning is all about.

So i'm glad to note that the minister is thinking about add - ing in resources for testing for the early years. My question goes to something, though, that the min- ister has alluded to throughout this morning's discussion, and that is about stakeholders having an important

part in having input into the system. So my question is: how is the round table going? is it meeting regularly? a re the stakeholders sitting down with you as the minister and your staff on a regular basis to discuss some of the issues that we've talked about this morning? i'd like to know if there's regular participation from all stakeholders. if not, why not? What does the minis - ter think is appropriate in terms of meeting on a regular basis with those people who can have input into the edu- cation system? Hon. G.

Abbott: i want to address the first part of the member's observations. i think it's really important to highlight where we are seeing some quite remark - able successes in the education system and, i hope, see an opportunity to build on those successes to a broader success across the system, particularly in respect of the early learning — that kindergarten-to-grade-4 period that is, as i've said, so critical in terms of learning. i want to highlight three school districts — r evelstoke, f ort n elson and southeast k ootenay — which are per - forming at international leading levels in terms of the results they are producing in those three school districts. a s the member will know, f ort n elson is certainly not an example of an easy school district, from a demographic perspective, to produce world-leading results.

What they are doing is what we've just been talking about in our discussion, which is identifying barriers to learning at those very early years and then having the culture within the school and within the school dis - trict to have a focused remediation of those issues in the early years.

The results, i'd say, are spectacular in those districts. [1145] i think part of the challenge that we're going to have as a ministry and as a system is trying to ensure that the best practices that can be identified from those dis - tricts are ones that, hopefully appropriately, we can see transmitted across the province or translated into other districts and hopefully start to see some comparable successes produced in the 57 other school districts in the province.

The other point the member made initially was this: if we don't catch issues early, they will produce attitudes and behaviours in learning which will be quite counter - productive in later years. The member is absolutely right. That again reinforces why we need to do well in those early years.

Just as an example, i had a recent opportunity to speak to our superintendent in the r evelstoke school district, who is by all accounts doing a wonderful job in terms of leading education in that school district. r evelstoke school district has found that the number of behavioural issues and behavioural problems has almost disappeared with the success in the early learning. So there is clearly a linkage between behavioural issues in the classroom and in the schools and success in the early years in meeting optimal levels for student learning. f or me that's tremendously encouraging in terms of the future.

We do want to not only congratulate but build on the success that those school districts have enjoyed in their early learning. in terms of the round table, since i have been min - ister, we've been focusing on bilateral discussions with the partners. There has not been a meeting of the round table in the period since i've been minister. R.

Austin: in terms of the minister's comments around those particular school districts that have done very well with kids who are in the early years, i think he's right. if you look at the success of those school dis - tricts and if you were to go and look, say, at the data that comes from the early learning project, the helP pro - ject out of ubc that goes and tracks pre-kindergarten children to see what their vulnerabilities are, you'll see, particularly in r evelstoke…. They've done an incredible job in r evelstoke in terms of their early childhood educators.

Prior to those kids going into the school system, something remarkable has happened in r evelstoke in terms of what they are able to do to identify children and give them the kinds of supports necessary, so when they arrive in kindergarten, they're already at that level where they are then able to take advantage of it. i think what we need to do is go beyond the k -to-12 system here and look at communities that are suc - cessful in the early years and figure out what it is that those communities are doing prior to school, and try and replicate that around the province.

Y ou know, all the evidence now, the scientific evidence, the research

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 17, 2011 7083 that's been done, and a lot of it right here in british c olumbia…. i mean, i think we should be proud that we are world leaders. i see the c hair…. i don't know if she's nodding here, but i know this is an area of her expertise. We have the best researchers in the world in terms of identifying vul- nerabilities for preschool kids.

What we need to do now is figure out how we can address those vulnerabilities so that then we can take advantage of that in the school system and not have all those challenges. i think it goes even beyond our re - sponsibilities here as k-to-12 to look at what we can do in the early years. i guess my final question just before we break for lunch would be…. The minister has been in his job for only, i guess, a couple of months, and the round table hasn't met.

Does the minister think that the round table…? is it his hope that the round table will be meeting in future on a regular basis? a lot of these issues here, i think, can be solved if all these partner groups come together and speak to one another and are not pitted against one another. Hon. G. Abbott: a t risk of continuing this love-in and having collaboration break out again, i do appreci - ate the member's comments with respect to some of the initiatives that our government and our ministry have undertaken in respect of pre-k learning and StrongStart.

The 350 StrongStart centres across the province have been a great success. We believe we can build on that. [1150] StrongStart has been a very important element in terms of having early play-based learning that can help us, again, better understand the special challenges that some children may have as they enter kindergarten. So no disagreement with the member on that, and i appre- ciate his constructive comments in that area. in terms of the l earning r oundtable, i don't feel that it would be appropriate for me to form any conclusions at this point about the future value of the l earning r oundtable.

My sense of the dynamics of partnerships in the education system currently is that we've got a lot of work to do — as a minister, as a ministry, as a govern - ment — in building the relationship with the t eachers f ederation. indeed, i think there's work to be done in terms of building the relationship among the various partners — the principals and vice-principals with the teachers and the t eachers f ederation, the superintendents with the teachers. a cross the system i think that we need to do some work in terms of building the relationship.

The idea of bringing all those partners together in round-table discussion, i think, may be something, again, which can be valuable in the future. but from my perspective, the most important thing right now is to start building a culture of respect, a culture of trust and responsibility among the partners. h opefully, as we progress in that area, we will see a move in the future to the opportunity to return to the round table. i move the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Motion approved. The committee rose at 11:52 a.m. The h ouse resumed; Mr.

Speaker in the chair. c ommittee of Supply (Section b), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. c ommittee of Supply (Section a), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. h on. r . c oleman moved adjournment of the h ouse. Motion approved. Mr. Speaker: This h ouse stands adjourned until 1:30 this afternoon. The h ouse adjourned at 11:53 a.m. PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of fore St S, lan DS an D natural re Source o Peration S (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section a); D. h orne in the chair.

The committee met at 10:09 a.m. on Vote 30: ministry operations, $363,399,000 (con- tinued). N. Macdonald: This morning is going to be, as i was speaking with the minister, a bit more of a case where we're going to jump from topic to topic. i will be starting with some questions coming out of yesterday's debate, and then we'll be moving to the independent member for Delta South, followed by one of my colleagues from Stikine. i should know these. [1010] That will likely take the better part of the morning. f ollowing that, we'll go to c owichan Valley to continue with the raw log debate.

british c olumbia Debates7084 t uesday, May 17, 2011 i just want to come back to one of the things that we talked about yesterday. it was when the minister was ex- plaining nS r . h e gave me an explanation, and i was just trying to go back and look at what i had heard in the western c anada silviculture association.

The question will deal with that. basically, with not sufficiently restocked forest lands, i think the minister was explaining how the 715,000 hectares breaks out into current nS r and other types of nS r . l ast f ebruary, as i was saying, i attended the Western Silviculture c ontractors a ssociation annual conference, at which the previous Minister of f orests and l ands at the time said that the area of nS r lands suitable and economic for replanting might be as high as 1.5 million hectares. l ater on one of the ministry staff confirmed that a further 400,000 hectares of nS r were not accounted for in the 715,000 hectares that we talked about yesterday. h e also estimated that 300,000 hectares of nS r attribut - able to small-scale salvage, logging for which licensees and industry have no responsibility to reforest, are also unaccounted for in the 715,000 hectares.

So the total estimate is an additional 700,000 hectares of n Sr unaccounted for in the 715,000 hectares. That figure was also noted on the ministry's website under "k ey silviculture statistics." This estimate of an additional 700,000 hectares in nS r that the ministry deems eco - nomic and feasible to replant makes the total area of n Sr around 1.4 million hectares, not the 715,000 hectares.

So my questions to the minister are: can he confirm the additional amount of nS r? a nd given that not suf - ficiently restocked is a key indicator of sustainable forest management, does the minister agree that it is totally unacceptable that his ministry does not know the true, actual extent of nS r in the province? [1015] Hon. S. Thomson: So just working through the num- bers here for the member opposite to make sure…. Y esterday we did talk about the 715,000 hectares, and i think we clarified that — the amount of current nS r that rotates in terms of the responsibility of licence hold- ers.

We worked through that. The number that the member opposite is talking about in terms of the additional potential n Sr land — i think it's important to recognize that that is potential. This is the area, you know, that's primarily related to mountain pine beetle impacts. So those are estimates of what may be pot- entially nSr land after all of the logging is completed. There are approximately 525,000 to 775,000 hectares. but i think the important point is that this land is still being logged in many cases.

So the ability to go in and determine what may or may not be n Sr land won't be there until after all of that process is completed — that we've seen the full impact, that it has been logged. [1020] We're continuing to work on bioenergy initiatives that take waste out of those areas. So it is simply an estimate of potential, but the work is underway. We'll continue to survey those areas when we can do that appropriately, at the right time.

Then if the area is determined to be n Sr , it would be put into the inventory or into the process for reforestation. but much of that land, particularly land that is less than 50 percent pine, may not require it. So i think that number that you're talking about, to the mem- ber opposite, is currently an estimate at this time. Work continues. We talked about the resources within our program that are focused on doing the survey work. a t some point that work will be done and completed and, potentially, added to the numbers around the nS r land.

We're also continuing, as he mentioned, on the small- scale salvage operations. We are continuing to survey and assess those as well. So those numbers that you're referring to are simply estimates at this point. N. Macdonald: So the minister would agree with his predecessor, then, that it could be as high as 1.4 mil - lion hectares to 1.5 million hectares that are nS r — that that's possible? Hon. S.

Thomson: Y ou talked about 400,000 and 300,000. a s i pointed out, simply estimates. if you add that to the 715,000, then you come to the number of the 1.5 that we're referring to. but remember that yesterday we talked about the fact that of that 715,000, a significant amount — 480,000 — is under licensees. We talked about the other components of that. So to jump to the point where you say that it goes from here to there, you have to recognize from our beginning conversation around the explanation of what makes up the 715,000 hectares. N.

Macdonald: f or laymen, these are complex issues, and trying to get them right is always a little difficult, but i think that even if we take out the 400,000 hectares, we are talking potentially about a vast area of nS r .

So just to wrap up with this part of the estimates, i'll just basically repeat the assertions, the conclusions, that the co-critic and i have reached on this set of estimates. i'll give the minister a chance to respond to that, and then we'll turn it over to the independent member for Delta South for some questions. basically, at the outset of the estimates debate i re - minded the minister of the two key purposes of his ministry set out in the Ministry of f orests and r ange a ct.

The first of those is to assert the financial interests of the government and british c olumbians, who are the owners of our vast public forest resources. That's the first. The second is to manage, conserve and protect those same forests in the public interest. The minister, in answers to revenue questions about minimum stumpage of 25 cents a cubic metre, indicated that that was charged for over 60 percent of all timber.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 17, 2011 7085 That's equivalent to 25 cents for a telephone pole or $8.75 for a logging truck of lumber. in response to ques- tions about the rate charged for water and log exports, it's evident that the government, in our view, has failed to assert the financial interests of both the government and british c olumbians. because so often the amount that comes off the land is linked to the investment in the land base, as a result of the compromised revenues, the government is unable to adequately manage, conserve and protect the public for- est resources as required by law.

The minister's answers to questions about the ad - equacy of funding set aside for water stewardship, for forest inventory, for reforestation of nS r forest lands, for research and for treatment of perimeter forest lands and natural resource operations is deeply flawed and may ultimately place, in many people's views, certifi - cation of public forests at risk. a lso, we would contend that it's not serving the public interest. [1025] e ssentially, that's the case that we've tried to put be - fore the minister in the debates on the estimates to date. a s i say, what we will go to now is a series of questions, after the minister has had a chance to respond.

Then we'll move later in the morning into a continued look at the raw log export issue. With that, i'd just like to give the minister an oppor - tunity to respond. Hon. S.

Thomson: Thank you for the opportunity to respond. i appreciated the debate that we've had so far and also appreciated the tenor of the debate. i think we both recognize that this is a very, very important sec - tor, that it is a precious resource that we have under our stewardship here in british c olumbia, and a very im - portant resource that contributes significantly to the economy of british c olumbia, to the revenues of british c olumbia, to rural and forest-dependent communities around the province. We talked about research and inventory.

Just to be clear, we are continuing to fund and support research within the integrated resource management structure that we have. We're continuing to do the inventory work that's required. We're focusing it and prioritizing it on the key areas, as we do the inventory work.

That all con- tributes to the stewardship. on the certification side, the highest percentage of land in c anada under certification with the certification processes that are in place from the three certification agencies, or three certification processes, third-party ap- provals of those certification processes…. [J. van Dongen in the chair.] We know that the industry and the companies that are operating on the land recognize the importance of those certification processes in terms of the market, so they continue to focus on their stewardship of this resource. When we move to the issue around….

We talked about the stumpage. i think it's very important to recognize that the stumpage rate is a market-based system. The bids dictate the price, in reflection of costs. it's updated regularly and, in fact, currently we're going through a process of updating and reviewing those numbers with respect to the market price system in both the coast and the interior.

Given the economic challenges that we've been through in the industry, the reality is that we've been focusing on harvesting a lot of the poorer-quality wood. o ver 60 per- cent — 67 percent in 2009 and continuing into 2010 — are harvesting in the mountain pine beetle areas, harvesting that poorer-quality wood. So that's obviously reflected in the stumpage pricing system. it is a system that is market- based. it's set to ensure that it reflects the realities and assists in keeping mills and companies in operation. but as i said, we continue to review that formula based on the market pricing system.

Those will be up - dated as we bring in the new factors and the new factors in the marketplace. in my view, with the resources that we have in the in- dustry, within the ministry we are continuing to focus strongly on the stewardship responsibilities. We're con - tinuing to do the work in research. We're continuing to do the work in forest health. We're continuing to do the inventory work. [1030] We have independent processes with the f orest Practices board that provide independent oversight to make sure that companies are operating within the stan- dards and the regulations.

We have the f orest r ange and Practices a ct that sets those standards. We have a high degree of compliance to those standards — in all the re - views that have been done, over 90 percent compliance with those standards. So i would disagree with the member opposite that we have got a situation where we put our resource sig - nificantly at risk.

We continue to work closely with the industry in making sure that we do steward and man - age this resource effectively and appropriately and that we ensure we can continue to support rural and forest- dependent communities in the province and continue to have this industry grow. We're coming through a very, very difficult situation, as the member opposite knows. We're starting to see recovery in the industry. We've opened or reopened 27 mills since 2009. That's created new employment — 1,600 new jobs directly and additional employment related to those jobs.

So we're continuing to work with this industry as it recovers. We're continuing to make sure that we keep that framework in place that helps the industry do that.

british c olumbia Debates7086 t uesday, May 17, 2011 V . Huntington: i'd like to ask the minister a few short questions, basically relating to comments and ques - tions that were asked of you during the b.c.

Wildlife f ederation meetings, and i'd like to start with the issue of the e-licensing. it was mentioned to the minister then that there were substantial problems with the e-licensing for fishery li - cences and that there was consideration being given in the ministry to advance e-licensing into the hunting li - cence category. i'd like to ask if you have taken into consideration the comment that was made to fix the problems with the e- licensing for fishing licences before you move into that system for hunting licences. is the ministry looking at that problem? Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question.

Y eah, and i recall the question at the Wildlife f ederation an- nual meeting. Just to be clear, firstly, in terms of the current operation of the e-licensing system for fishing licences, it is operating very, very well. in fact, we've had increased participation in the program — a growth of over 6 percent in the number of licences. We've had no complaints about the system. We've haven't had any out- ages.

The system is working very well. [1035] The basis or the genesis of the question from the member at the time was related to a policy decision around what processes and what types of initia - tives you could support under an e-licensing system. Primarily, if i recall the question, it was related to wanting to be able to use the e-licensing system for additional reservation processes and that sort of thing — something beyond what the current licensing sys - tem provides. That is work that has to continue to be taken under consideration.

We have advised the individual who raised that ques - tion that at this point we're considering the policy implications about it but we're not moving forward to implement them specifically at this point. We continue to focus on making sure that the existing system works and is robust and that we're not having any complaints or concerns about it. That's the case. The response from the users of the system has been very, very positive and, as i mentioned, is increasing. in terms of the e-licensing for hunting, we're con - tinuing to work on how we may put a system in place for e-licensing for hunting.

We're going to learn from the experience in the e-licensing for fishing. We con - tinue to work with that and are looking forward to potentially bringing in an e-licensing system for hunt - ing in the future. but just to be clear, the experience that we've had on the fishing licence side of it will be very, very valuable and useful for us as we move forward in consideration of that initiative. V . Huntington: i think it's important to know that the question also related to what was perceived as a lack of ability to control the numbers effectively, who were obtaining the e-licences.

That was the concern re - lated to moving into the system of e-licensing with the hunting. There was also the issue raised about asking again whether the minister will be reprinting the hunting synopsis and guidelines.

The minister may not be aware that in my riding hunting is a significant recreational activity, shall we say, and it's important also to the agri - cultural community. i have received many representations that the synopsis, as it stands, doesn't include parks but that we're issu - ing more licences. i think you mentioned up to 94,000 this year, hoping to get up to 100,000 resident licences — all of which are being issued now without a guideline and without a synopsis available.

There is great concern about that within the community, certainly within Delta. i wonder if the minister would again consider a reprint of that synopsis. [1040] Hon. S.

Thomson: Thank you for the question again. a s i acknowledged at the Wildlife f ederation annual meeting when the question was raised, it was an er - ror on our part that the total number of synopses that were printed for the two-year period were fully distrib - uted in the first year. i think it's important to recognize that when those were distributed it was well known that those were two-year synopses, so all people who got licences in that year when the synopsis first came out were aware of that and hopefully have held on to the synopsis and still have them available, knowing that it's a two-year synopsis.

The synopsis is available on the website. We work act- ively with the Wildlife f ederation, with the members in the Wildlife f ederation, their membership, to make sure that they know that's available. We work with the retailers, the shops, to point that out so that people can access it. c urrently at this time, with the budget challenges that we face within the ministry, we're not contemplating a reprint of the synopsis at this point. o ur focus is, as new licensees come in, to make sure that they know it's avail- able and to assist them in accessing the synopsis on the website.

That's the current strategy related to this synop- sis. it is for two years. We will be moving into the next process in developing the next synopsis, and we will make sure that when we do it this time, we don't inadvertently send them all out in the first year and run into the same problem again. V . Huntington: Well, i thank the minister for the an - swer. h owever, you have a very large hunting community that is fairly upset about their lack of access to these guide-

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 17, 2011 7087 lines, and i don't see that a reprint to cover the remainder of this year would break the bank in the ministry. i think that you have a client base here that is controlled and li- censed, and i think they should have access if they feel the need for these guidelines in a printed format. Moving on, one other issue that came up at the Wildlife f ederation — and again, spoken of to me by residents in my riding — is the lack of the ongoing inventorying of the wildlife resource and at the same time increasing the numbers of hunters out there in the community.

There was a call for a real need for baseline data, and the min - istry no longer has that data in a current form. h as the minister taken those comments to heart, and is he working with his ministry to find the wherewithal to increase the number of inventories being undertaken in the resource area? [1045] Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question. inventory is an important part of the process. i think it's important to recognize a number of things.

We con- tinue to have resources available for inventory work, and we're focusing them on high-priority species in the process — so caribou, mountain goat, mountain sheep, moose species in certain areas. We're continuing to do the inventory work. With the budget and fiscal challenges that we have, we haven't got the same amount of resources avail - able for that currently as we have had directly in the past, but that doesn't mean important inventory work is not continuing. We've reached out, and we're work - ing in partnership, in many cases, with the b.c. Wildlife f ederation.

Particularly, they have stepped forward and assisted in inventory work. a dditionally, a very, very important part of doing the inventory work is actually keeping records and accur - ate information in terms of the harvest of those species. That's in terms of the wildlife biologists. That's a very important part of the analysis and the work they do. We have a very robust system in place that reports the harvest levels for all the species, and that's put into the process when we're doing the decisions around alloca - tion and hunts.

While we recognize that we would like to do some more work in those areas, we continue to focus on the high priorities. We continue to work with our partners in addressing that. it is an issue that continues to be an active discussion with the Wildlife f ederation. V .

Huntington: i thank the minister for that answer. i'd like to move to a more general issue, and it's that of water stewardship, particularly water stewardship in the far north, where there is so much oil and gas activity. i recognize that at the moment the oil and Gas c om- mission has the permitting authority for withdrawal of water to aid the fracturing industry. but the amount of water that that o il and Gas c ommission is permitting is unbelievable. There is no ministry in this government monitoring what is going on up there, effectively.

The o il and Gas c ommission, i'm assuming, does not have expertise in the area of water withdrawal. l ast a pril 2010 there were permits that had been issued for the withdrawal of water from over 540 source points, permitting up to 62 million gallons of water a day. This is an interruption with the way it's being used by the oil and gas industry, and it's an interruption of the water cycle itself. i think that the ministry…. i'm asking whether the minister has any plans to have his industry step in to take a look at the entire water stew - ardship concern in the far north. [1050] Hon. S.

Thomson: a gain, thank you for the question. o ur ministry is continuing to work very closely with the oil and Gas c ommission and the Ministry of energy and Mines in addressing this issue. The oil and Gas c ommission, as you know, is under the responsibility of the Minister of energy and Mines, so i would suggest you may want to canvass that question more directly with the ministry. o ur water stewardship branch is responsible for the decisions around allocation. So we recognize that there is a concern that has developed there.

We're continu - ing to work with the oil and Gas c ommission, with the industry, with the c anadian association of agriculture producers on those issues. it's important to note that the industry is working under a principle of reusing water, taking water from deep-well saline aquifers, so it's not affecting ground - water use. They understand the need to make sure that they keep a focus on doing that. They have both an en - vironmental and an economic incentive to do that.

Just to be clear, our ministry and the water steward - ship branch continue in discussions with the oil and Gas c ommission and the Ministry of energy and Mines on this issue. V . Huntington: This is an atrocious situation that has developed up there. We're the only province that doesn't control the water stewardship by government. it's a captured agency that is permitting these with - drawals, with no daily oversight or approvals from the government of british c olumbia. it's an unsustainable, irresponsible situation, in my mind, that has developed up there.

There's no control of the wastewater and no require - ments for treatment that i'm aware of. it's expensive to treat it. The backflow from most wells amounts to up to sometimes 60 percent of the water that's being used. i don't know what the treatment requirements are and if the treatment requirements are being done by the oil and Gas c ommission, by your ministry or by the

british c olumbia Debates7088 t uesday, May 17, 2011 Ministry of environment. i just hope that this ministry gets a handle on this issue.

The industry ought not to be mapping the aquifers, and that's what's happening right now. i think we're just throwing caution to the wind by allowing self-regulatory bodies to look after the stewardship of the water resource that is so desperately needed by that industry, who will go to any length at all to obtain the water they need. it should be controlled firmly by your ministry, i believe. [D. h orne in the chair.] in that regard, i have a number of questions, but i'll ask one other, and that's my concern that the ministry…. i'd like to know how the ministry meshes with the en - vironmental assessment process. [1055] r ight throughout your service plan and other docu - ments, you're talking about balancing the cumulative footprints with the outcomes; considering the environ - mental, economic and social factors of an application; attracting investment while upholding standards. but nowhere does it discuss the criteria — the number of scientists that were involved in looking at these cumula- tive effects and how to assess them or the factors that are taking precedence as you're looking at them. o ver and over again we see, through the service plan, an interest in developing the economic value of these resources, and yet we have no solid criteria upon which you're balancing that development. i'd like to know, if your industry is now basically responsible for the environmental impact of these applications, how it meshes with the environmental assessment process and where your ministry stops and the assessment pro - cess begins.

Hon. S. Thomson: i just wanted to respond a little bit further to the previous question that the member op - posite raised around the water impacts, particularly in the shale industry. i think that it would be an appropri - ate question for you to address with energy and Mines. i'm aware and i know that a team within that ministry is looking at a comprehensive water strategy as part of that process. We'll be inputting into that process, but i think that's an important point to recognize.

Just in terms of the question that was asked. t wo things that i want to say. i have said and i continue to say that the establishment of the n atural r esource operation structure to bring it into one project, one process is about creating certainty, about creating a system that looks at those cumulative impacts to make sure they're all taken into consideration. it is about advancing and streamlining the decision processes. it is not about com- promising environmental standards at all. We continue to have processes in place that make sure that those standards are applied.

Ministry of environment continues to set the standards. Ministry of environment continues to have the eao environmental assessment process. We feed into that. in terms of the cumulative impacts, it was one of the rea- sons that the n atural r esource o peration structures have been put in place — to make sure that when those deci - sions are made, all of those factors are taken into place. [1100] We have an interagency group working on putting the criteria or the structures in place to be able to do that in a stronger way than we currently do as part of our new responsibility. So that's work that continues.

Do we have all the pieces in place yet? n o. it's work that we need to continue to work on, but clearly one of the objectives of putting this structure in place was to do just that. a lso, it's important to recognize that in the structure that we've got…. With the process that we have under the natural re - sources deputy ministers' board…. it brings all of the resource ministers together in those processes for stra - tegic direction with the environment and land use committee of cabinet that includes all the resource min- isters, including the Minister of environment.

We make sure that those environmental standards are taken into consideration in all of that decision-making. c learly, you know, the process is about getting stream- lined, integrated decision-making made, but it's not about compr

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0517am 03
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0517am 03
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e1d685670aaf8ee24ca9c40aa6e15aee0aec3b1e

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