Manitoba Hansard — 11 March 1974 (Sitting 48, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-48

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXI No. 48 8:00p.m., Monday, March 11th, 1974. First Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin PI., Winnipeg R3J 3LB Bl RTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova BRAN DON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 222a Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon.

Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova CHAR LESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1L5 CHURCHILL Les Osland NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD Harvey Patterson NDP 97a Garwood Ave., Winnipeg R3M 1N7 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB EMERSON Steve Derewianchuk NDP V ita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FUN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man. ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. as Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy Lib. 132 Osborne St.

S., Winnipeg R3L 1Y5 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NDP 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Banman P.C. Steinbach, Man. ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man.

ROG 1KO OSBORNE Hon. I an Tu rnbull NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NDP 23 Coral berry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. 135- 16th St. S.W., Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N 2W5 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1WB RHINELAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RI EL Donald W. Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3YB RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, O.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. I nglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J.

Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova RUPERTSLAND Harvey Bostrom NDP Manigotagan, Manitoba ROE 1EO ST. BONIFACE J. Paul Marion Lib. 394 Gaboury Place, Winnipeg R2H OL4 ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NDP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave.,Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George M inaker P.C. 318 Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3JB ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NDP 418 Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste.

Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SOURIS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man. ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ran McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova THOMPSON Ken Dillen NDP 1171 Westwood Dr.,Thompson RBN OGB TRANSCONA Hon.

Russell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova VIR DEN Morris McGregor . P.C. Kenton, Man . ROM OZO WELLINGTON Phi lip M. Petursson NDP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 WOLSELEY I.H. Asper Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:0 0 o'clock, Monday, March 11, 1974 INTRODUCT ION OF GUESTS 1269 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 25 members of the Beta Sigma Phi Soror ity. They are under the direction of Mrs. Debbie Lambert. On behalf of all the honourable members I wel come you here tonight. BILL 7 Co nt'd MR. SPEAKER: We are on Bill 7, the amendment thereto. The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I started shortly before the hour of adjournment and I was attempting to deal with the comments of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry who had a central point that he put in his whole address, namely that the provisions of Bill 7,

An Act to Amend the Civil Service Act would in effect be discriminatory because some people would be excluded from having full political rights, and that strikes me as an unusual position indeed, Mr. Speaker. A MEMBER: Well it's an unusual bill. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR . DOERN: I don't know if it's an unusual bill or not. I think that it's a bill that con tains a great deal of logic and simply extends present rights and present privileges.

The Member for Fort Garry he takes the position that, he moans and groans and laments the fact that some, some will be excluded, and of course, what really concerns him is that the decision as to which group or which individuals will be excluded will be made by this government. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): By regulation. MR . DOERN: By regulation, which will be subject to debate. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR . DOERN : But essenti ally, Mr. Speaker, he is concerned that this government which he mistrusts will make that decision and consequently he is not in tune with our thinking and he is highly concerned.

Well, Mr. Speaker, I regard this as really crocodile tears, because you know, he doesn 't talk about the fact that there are 12, 000 people today who in effect are denied p:-ivileges of citizenship a:�.d democratic rights during the time when the writs are issued for an e�ection until the time that the election is over, doesn 't seem to be concerned at all ahout 12, 000 people. He's concerned about the fact that possibly a handful of civil servants may be excluded.

I would think that the logic of his position would be that no one sho uld be excluded and that he sho:�ld stand as the political extremist of the right and carry his caucus with him on the grounds that all 12, 000, everyone, should have these privileges. That would be a sound position. I suspect, however, that his real position is that no one should have the privilege to participate fully after the writs are issued. --(Interjection)--It's not a bad position that all should be excluded ? Well I . . . MR . SP EAKER: Order please. MR. DOERN: I will attempt to deal with that position in my comments.

The member is worried about some, and, Mr. Speaker, I recall my courses in philosophy--here's the honour able gentleman now, I didn't recognize him without his skates on, but I gather that that's him. Mr. Speaker, I recall that in logic, the term "some" means two or more and the honourable member is lamenting in effect the fact that there are two or more people out of the 12, 000 who will be excluded on the basis of regulation, on the basis that this government, whom my honour able friend does not support or has not supported in general, will make the decision as to who is in fact, excluded.

If I were to make that decision, Mr. Speaker - and I have made my posi tion known o:J. this, I make it known again and I intend to speak in this manner in Cabinet and my colleagues and I will come to a conclusion as to where to draw the line, because to me that is the issue. My honourable friend, as I said, should argue that there should be no one excluded, that all 12, 000 should be equally eligible. I suspect his real position is not that he laments the loss of a few, but that he in effect doesn't want anybody out of the 12, 000 to have that privilege.

But he puts it in a more palatable manner, namely he is concerned about the discriminatory aspect of this particular bill. If I were drawing the line, Mr. Speaker, I would exclude the follow ing .. .

1270 March 11, 1 974 BILL 7 MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR. DOERN: I would exclude the following: the Deputy Minister, who is on a daily basis contact with the Minister, the ADM who is on a weekly or biweekly basis with the Minister and the Directors who are also in reasonably close touch with the . . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable gentleman will have his opportunity. MR .

DOERN: So that I think that in a regular department, if I were to take my depart ment as being so mewhat average or typical of the other departments, there are about a half a dozen people in the department that I think should be or could be excluded. Now when you con sider that over the whole government it would probably total, Mr. Speaker, about 100 members in all, and 100 members on the basis of 12, 000 is, of course, less than one percent.

I would say that the actual principle behind this bill is the one that my honourable friend appears to support, or would lead us to believe that he supports; namely, that everyone should have this right and that no one should be excluded.

I think that is in fact, the underlying principle, but I think that all of us realize on a common sense basis that there could be problems with that, that it might be necessa ry in light of experience and in the light of human nature, which my honour able friends all understand as conservatives , or claim to understand, people who understand human nature, it seems clear that if a person has an employee who works with them on a regu lar and a close personal basis and that employee then enters the political fray, that when that person came back there might be some friction or some hard feelings in the air, and I think that it is because of that, that we believe that it would be a good idea to exclude those at the very top because of practical limitations to this general principle.

Mr. Speaker, it would be very interest ing to hear the members of the Cons ervative Party, we've heard many of them already. We've heard a dozen or more and now we get the six months' hoist, we'll hear another dozen or more. I'm hoping that the new leader, this even ing's leader of the Conse rvative Party (applause) easily recognized--(Interjection)--at least a good leader my colleague says.

I'm hoping that he will speak on this as well because he'll give us the true Conser vative position, which is not necessa rily the position of his leader who is a red Tory or some of the other members who are not as true and as blue as he himself is . Mr. Speaker, some of the members seem to argue that they're for every one being eligible to have full rights and privileges. Others seem to be for nobody having those privileges. I would like to see one Co 'lservative out of the group who might support our position, namely, that most, or nearly all, or all but, should have the fu ll rights or privileges.

What would happen, Mr. Speaker, if this legislation were in effect introduced? Well we've seen these black pictures, this black image of, oh, debate at the water cooler and all sorts of breakdown of machinery. I'm sure that the amount of debating that would go on under this legislation would be about the same as it exists now, namely that there would be some dis cussion but that it would be on a limited basis and not likely to take place in shouting matches in the offices or at the water coolers, or in our very fine cafeteria downstairs. Mr.

Speaker, I would imagine that with this legislation that we would probably wind up with a few more candidates and a few more workers being involved. I don't see this great politicization of the civil service as my honourable friends are concerned. The problem is this. My honourable friend from Swan River he's very vitally concerned with this bill. The best suggestion I've seen from him in the last five years, Mr. Speaker, is his suggestion that we put some flags up in the courtroom in Swan River. I supported his posi tion, Mr. Speaker, and I'm now asking him to support mine. I'm asking him this question.

He was for 22 years a civil servant with the RCMP. --(Interjection)--That is a special category. Mr. Speaker, the civil servant of today in Manitoba has in effect all the rights and privileges of any other citizen up to the time that the writs are issu ed, and then soon as an election is called he loses them, and then when the election is over he resumes those particular rights. -- (Interjection)--Well, I have to appeal to my honourable senior colleague ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. DOERN: .. . to amplify that point because I'm having problems with the opposition here. MR. BILTON: Oh don't worry about them.

They have problems with themselve s, so don't worry about it. MR . DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I have just said to my honourable friend that a civil servant in Manitoba today has all the rights and privileges of any citizen up until the time the writs are

March 11, 1974 1271 BILL 7 (MR. DOERN cont'd) .... . issued. When the writs are issu ed he loses them for a period of several months and then regains them after the election is over. I simply say this , Mr. Speaker, where is the logic. Where is the logic and where is the defence of the members oppo site on that particular position? Mr.

Speaker, if a civil servant, a civil servant in Manitoba, can belong to a political party, can serve on the executive, can go to a meeting and select the candidate or even run himself and opt out for a while, can make contribution, can help his party fund raise, and can do that for several years in a row up until the time that the writs are issued and then he loses all these privileges, where's the logic ?-- (Interjection)-- MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. DOERN: In other words there is no logic. A MEMBER: Yes there is . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. DOERN : Mr. Speaker, what happens is this.

Where are these people - Mr. Speaker, where is--I'm attempting to, I think I have the floo r, Mr . Speaker. Where is that logic, if these people have all of those rights, aren't their jobs in jeopardy? Aren't they in mortal dan ger? Aren't they arguing in the hallways and at the water coolers and in the restaurants? Aren't they participating in political activity all the time, isn't it known what they are doing until the time the writs are issued? Well it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that is absurd.

It is clear that if people can do that for about 95 or 99 percent of the time that they should be able to do it in effect for all the time. That all these grave fears and grave doubts and suspicions and doom and gloom on the part of the opposition about what would happen, if. Well it is happening right now, and there doesn't seem to be any adverse effects or any fallout or any dire conse quences. --(Interjection)-- MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. DOERN: It simply means, Mr.

Speaker, that what is happening right now is that they are full citizens in the democratic fabric and then when the wirts are called they lose their privileges. Mr. Speaker, I can't support that kind of position and neither do the governments of Ontario, Saskatchewan, Federal Government and so on. I think that if this issue is brought to light as a result of this debate in other provinces I think you're going to see a lot more legis lation of this kind being introduced.

If the Conser vative Pa rty, if the Co 'lservative Party want logic on their side given their gut feelings which are obviously what leads them, I assume that socialists are lead by their minds

whereas the Conserva tives are lead by their stomachs . Mr. Speaker. MR. ENNS : ... a matter of House privilege on his side, that the members opposite are led by an archaic outdated document concocted in Regina in 1934, called The Manifesto . . . MR . DOERN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what leads the Co nservative Party, I mean, I have studied conse rvative philosophy and studied political science, I don't know what leads them, but I have to remind my honourable friend that the New Democratic Party was born O'.lt of the - maybe I should say ashes of the CCF and went on from there to taking three govern ments out of ten and building a fairly strong base federally for an eventual movement into federal politics. (Applause) Mr. Speaker, I just say this to the Conservatives.

If they want to be logical on this bill they should vote to roll back existing rights of civil servants . That really is their position. Their position is not that they are against this bill, their position is that they are against pol itical rights available to all citizens, to civil servants year-round. Many of them are not aware of the fact, they are not aware of the fact that these rights are available to civil servants on a year-round bas is except at election time. So I think their position should be very simple. Wipe out all the rights and privileges of the Manitoba civil servants on a year-round basis.

That would then put them in a strong position. And not be like my honourable friend the Member for Fort Garry who bemoans the fact that a handful of civil servants will be excluded by the drawing of a line by the government, under regulation, it will exclude a hundred or so souls in the Civil Service, attempting to give the impression that he is for fu ll rights on a year-round basis to every single member of the Civil Service. I say that the Cons ervative position is take away the right of all civil servants on a year-round basis, and they should come out and be honest about their position. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin.

127 2 March 11, 1974 BILL 7 MR . McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, again, you know if one guy stands up there that guy, they all talk the same language. They're all brainwashed, they're all drawn into the same slot. Mr. Speaker, I listened to the Honourable Minister of Autopac the other night on a resolution and we get the same speech exactly from the Minister of Public Works. And I'm sure tomorrow the Minister of Industry and Co mmerce will be on his feet, he's going in the same slot.

As my friend and colleague from Lakeside said, the old Regina Manifesto, and it's been hashed up and it's been cooked up and it's been changed. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. McKENZIE: They've had another convention, Mr. Speaker, and away we go on Bill No. 7. The same old hogwash we hear over and over and over again. Mr. Speaker, is there not somebody over there can stand up on his own feet and think for himself. Show me- not one. Now, Mr. Speaker, in the debate on this Bill 7 you'll find out, Mr. Speaker, that in our caucus you'll find variances of opinions, where members in our caucus, Mr.

Speaker, and in the Liberal caucus when they stand up on their feet they think for themselves and they know what they're talking about. But, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately over there they're all brainwashed, they're all in the same old slot and--yah, there they sit. And they've been told that this bill is a good bill by this Minister of, Labour is it they call him ?-- (Interjection)--Labouring Minister. But, Mr. Speaker, just let's take a look at this legislation, real quick.

In this province we have 100 years of history that's on the record, and what helped put that history of this pro vince on the record is the best Civil Service you can find anywhere in North America. Now I ask the Minister of Publi c Works, do you want to change that? Can you make it better by that bill? Well, Mr. Speaker, he says yes to both questions. I say that's the argument. We say you can't do it and before I sit down tonight I'm going to prove to you you can't do it, I'll give you all the reasons, because your reasons are political reasons. Ours are not. (laughter) Mr. Speaker, what did .I tell you?

When one laughs they all laugh because they all think the same. They all think the same. If one laughs over there they all laugh. If one pats his desk they all pat thei r desks, you know . So typical. MR. SP EAKER: Order please. MR . McKENZIE: That's so typical of socialists, you know. So typical. They run along behind, they follow the master just like Pavlov's dogs, you know, those days. The Minister of Labour has got these boys in the back room and he's given them a tongue-lashing and a brain washing, he said, I'm going to bring this bill in again.

We tried it the last time but I got--you know, they threw the election and the Minister of Labour said I'd never be back again, I'd never speak in the House again. So he was wrong on that issue in the election, I'm back again. I don't think he even made a speech in my constituency if I recall. No I don't think he did. But nevertheless, we're back and we got Bill 7 back. Well I just ask the Minister of Public Works again who I'm replying to his remarks. Do you want to destroy the Civil Service that we've had in this province for a hundred years? SOME MEMBERS: No, no. MR .

McKEN ZIE: Well, what are you talking about? What are you talking about in Bill 7? Why make the change? Mr. Speaker, let's look at the Civil Service that he's got in his department, the best Civil Service you could get anywhere in your department and you want to get them all bagging for you; you want to get them putting up posters for you; you want to get them driving your cars; you want to put them on temporary today and change them to--and the Executive Council you see can call the whole shot. In this bill, Mr. Speaker, the Civil Service lose all their rights .

The rights that they've got today are destroyed in that one section--let me finish my speech and I'll spell it out for you word for word, clause for clause, where you guys with your Executive Co uncil are going to take over and destroy the Civ il Service of this province that's been so damned good for a hundred years, has made Manitoba what it is today, a real nice place to live. And you're all doing it by Bill No . 7. And that's why we give it the six-months' hoist, we're going to hoist it until you guys wake up and recognize what you're doing. Now, Mr. Speaker, let's take a look.

Twelve thousand civil servants in this province and the Minister of Labour wants to take them over, put them under his wing, make them all his political animals, put up his signs, bag money for them, take over all their rights. If we pass this bill they will have no rights. Read that section. I'll read it. Can I read it, Mr. Speaker? That's a tragedy. I'd like to read it into the record, Mr. Speaker. Well,

March 11, 197 4 1273 BILL 7 (MR . McKENZIE cont'd) ... .. Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Minister of Public Works says "discrimination". -- (Interjection)-- You said it too and I will prove. Is there any discrimination in a civil servant today that wants to run in this province for offi ce the same as I do? None whatsoever. I gave up my rights as a country grocer to offer my name for political offi ce. Why doesn't the Civil Service have to give up so mething the same as I do?

Or this man here was a civil servant for many years, resigned from the civil service and offered his name for public office, and was there anything wrong with him doing that under the old legislation? And he says discrimination! Discr imination against who, Mr. Speaker? Discrimination against the civil service? No way. No way. A civil servant in this province can offer his name for offi ce tomorrow morning, Mr. Speaker, and stand up like me and go out on the hustings and meet the people. And he has all the rights that I have. And you're talking, the Minister of Public Works is talking discrimination, Mr. Speaker?

I suspect, Mr. Speaker, as I've said, they all run along behind one another like all socialists do. They never think for themselves , they just do what the Minister of Labour has told them and here they are. They're all standing up singing the same song and barking the same tune, but they haven't read the bill. How many of you guys over there read this bill? And studied it? What's your opinion of

Section 47? Mr. Speaker, if I recall in reading this

section of the Act, and if I happen to read it word for word, Mr. Speaker, I apologize because it's--if my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Speaker, the one

section of the Act says "nothing in the Act affects the rights of the Executive Counc il". No thing in this Act affects the right of the Executive Council. So who's supreme? Not the civil service, Mr. Speaker, no way. The Minister of Labour is going to call the shot. The Executive Council, he's o:J.e of them. Now you talk about discr imination. Who is being discriminated against, the Minister of Labour or the civil servants if we give you the right in that bill?

I say the civil servants are having their rights taken away from them and they are the ones that's being discriminated because the Minister of Labour wants to run the whole show. And read it, it's right in the Act. I'll repeat it again for you, Mr. Speaker. Word for word as I'm paraphrasing, "nothing in the Act affects the right of the Executive Council" ... MR . SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Thom pson have a point of order? MR. KEN DILLEN (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, in the Honourable Member for Roblin's remarks he made a gesture which would appear from this side of the House, at least from where I'm sitting, as the gesture that was evident during the Na zi era of Germany, and I would like to have him apologize to this side of the House for making that gesture. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Robl in. MR . McKENZI E: Mr. Speaker, you can make that decision whether I shall have to apolo gize or not. It's one of the unfo rtunate things that some of the new members come in here, Mr.

Speaker, and if they're around here long enough you'll learn the rules of this House and how you conduct yourself. But, Mr. Speaker, let's carry on with Bill 7. The Minister of Labour in this legislation he not only wants control of the civil servants by the Executive Council but he wants control - if he's not going to control it - "or a committee thereof" . Who is discriminating against the civil service, Mr. Speaker? That Minister. That Executive Council. They want control by himself or a committee that he appoints. Now I ask the Minister real quick, who decides? You or the committee or the Executive Cou ncil?

A MEMBER: This House. MR. McKENZIE: Doesn't say that in the bill. Show me in the bill where it says "this House", Mr. Speaker. It does not spell that out and that's why I'm standing on my feet tonight and fighting this bill the best way I can, and trying to get you guys to recognize what you're putting in black and white. Where the Minister of Public Works has stood up and made a speech tonight and he said, we're discriminating against the civil servants. We are not. You are. You're a member of the Executive Co uncil. Do you want those rights?

Do you want the right to take over the Civil Service and discriminate against them? Not only to take their rights away, but if the Executive Council doesn't take their rights away you'll appoint a committee then and they take their rights away. Mr. Speaker, there's no way that I can support that kind of legislation. It's ridiculous, it's uncalled for and it's very untimely in the Province of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: Order please.

127 4 March 11, 197 4 BILL 7 MR. McKENZIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, let's move on to the rest of the bill. --(Interjection)- Yah. "The Executive Co uncil shall determine the organization of the Civil Service. " The Executive Council. Now would you believe - that's in the bill, Mr. Speaker. Now "you talk about discrimination. Who's discriminating? The Civil Service discriminating or the Executive Council? Mr. Speaker, the Executive Council are the ones that are discriminating.

Because they're not only taking the rights from the civil service, the Minister wants to run it, the Executive Council, he can form a committee or, Mr. Speaker, he can "determine the organiza tion ". He can determine the organization that's going to run the Civil Service of this province. --(Interjection)-- Well CUPE? That's possible. And you imagine how those guys would move in because they're supporting them anyway. Half their money they get from CUPE. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR. McKENZIE: And, Mr. Speaker, you're an honourable man, Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside wish to have the floor , would he please stand up or keep quiet. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKEN ZIE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I always need the support of the Honourable Member for Lakeside in my debates but I think that I'm quite capable tonight of - and maybe he'll help me if I get in trouble - but, I again ask the Minister that brought this legislation, what do you want of the Civil Service? A MEMBER: He wants to own it. MR . McKENZIE: He wants to take it over lock, stock and barrel. If he can't handle it he'll form a committee, and if they can't handle it ..

MR . SP EAKER: Order please. MR . McKENZIE: ... then he or the committee will determine. And, Mr. Speaker, you read the bill. "They will determine the organization of the Civil Service. " A MEMBER: Imagine that. MR. McKENZIE: Now isn't that wonderful legislation for moving into the next century of this great province? And you think we're not scared? Mr. Speaker, let's move on to the next part of the bill. The next right that we're granting to the Executive Council in this is they can ass ign the duties of the Civil Service. The Executive Council, Mr.

Speaker, in this legislation if we pass it can "assign the duties of the Civ il Se!"vice" .. A MEMBER: Terrible. Terrible. Collect funds for the next month. MR . McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, just think of that one. Just think of that one. That Minister over there wants all those powers, which they've never had before, and the civil servants have never been in under that kind of regime, and he wants me to stand up in this Chamber and support - and give him all the-- Mr. Speaker, call a doctor, please. I suspect the Minister of Labour needs help, Mr. Speaker. Becaus e this is only the start of the debate.

You know, if you're crying now, you're in real trouble. Mr. Speaker, I just ask--and you know he spoke now what? Two or three times in this bill. Twice. He's never answered any of thes e questions. No, because he doesn't know. He's just like the rest of them; when one stands up they all stand up and say the same thing. They play the same violin, they sing the same tunes and they talk the old Regina Manifesto. Mr. Speaker, let's move on and take another look at this bill. A MEMBER: Pick another clause, Wally. MR .

McKENZIE: It also grants the right to the Executive Co uncil to class ify the Civil Service. --(I nterjection)-- Isn't that? What's wrong with the present organization of the Civil Service? What's wrong with the civil servants' organization that we've got today which they run by themselves, they class ify themselves? Why shouldn't they run their own show? Well- no come on, because you guys want to take it over that's why. But I say let the civil servants run their own show.

We don't need the Executive Council to move in there and take them over; or if you can't take them over you'll form a committee to take them over; or if you can't take them over that way you'll assign them to their own duties temporary or otherwise. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, surely, surely we got a better Minister of Public Works in this province that could stand up and make a speech like he made a while ago, who can't even read a bill. Why didn't you tell the people of Manitoba what I'm telling them tonight about this bill? You're a Minister. You've got all kinds of secretaries.

You've got research people. You've got staff. You can read a bill. I'm just doing it by myself as an ordinary layman and

March 11, 1974 12 75 BILL 7 (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) .... . I've got no secretaries . In fact, I note the new salary of the Police Commission the other day - you know a policeman in the city gets more money than I do as an MLA. And I got to read my own bills. But I'm surprised that we have a Minister of the Crown, the Minister of Public Works, who would stand up in this House and make allegations and statements like he made here tonight and say there's no discrimination in that bill. My gosh. No he doesn't understand because all he reads is the Regina Manifesto. That's all he reads. Mr.

Speaker, let's take a look at some more sections of this bill. Do you know what? This Minister wants the right - in one section, if he can't classify them he's got the right to reclassify them. Yo:1 know if they don't sing and dance for him over there and go and collect enough money for the election or put up enough posters, or go and do enough bagging or drive enough cars . . . A MEMBER: He'll shove them all into Lynn Lake. MR. McKENZIE: ... the Minister and the Executive Council--(Interjection)--Yah. Well the Minister . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, he also wants the right not only to classify them but to reclassify them. Read it. There it is. Now, Mr. Speaker, I can understand the Minister of Labour's plight because he said he was going to get me last election, he said he was going to get me the election before. Well he's tried every avenue that they've known, they've had bagmen out there, they've had trailers in there, they've had them from Onta rio, they've had them from B. C. , they've had them from Saskatchewan trying to beat me. But now they're going to do it with the Civ il Service, going to try a new way to get rid of McKenzie. Mr.

Speaker, I'll fight elections in Roblin constituency on equal grounds any time but I'm not going to fight an election against a Civil Service that's political. No way. No way. And I'm not going to give you the right as long as I have some bre ath in my lungs and can stand up and fight that kind of legislation which will give not only the Minister but the Executive Council of this province the right to determine what kind of an organ ization the civil servants are going to have, assign the duties to the civil servants, classify them, reclassify them.

And the Minister of Public Works says that's not discrimination. Yo:1 go back and read the speeches my friend made this afternoon, the Member from Fort Garry, who was talking discrimination. I'm talking in a lot more forc eful terms than he's talk ing in, but I defy any of you members to stand up--Mr. Speaker, they talk about discrimination. They talk about complete takeover--and I know what's in the back rooms, the talks about NDP. I've been through these guys in Saskatchewan. My mother still lives out there, God bless her soul. If she could get out of there she'd get out tomorrow morning. Mr.

Speaker, what would happen if we passed this bill? Have you any ideas what would happen, Mr. Speaker , if we passed that bill? Mr. Speaker, what could happen if we passed that bill? We'd have the Minister of Labour, he'd be sitting up in the highest office - and they're going to have some high ones . . . A MEMBER: Up on the Golden Boy. MR. McKENZIE: ... he'll have his binocula rs, he'll be checking the civil servants all around this province, who's bagging for them, who's putting up signs, who's driving the NDP cars, when the next election comes. And, Mr. Speaker, who's going to pay for it all? The taxpayer.

The taxpayer. The taxpayer - he wants us to give him a blanket of goods in this bill that the taxpayers of this province are going to let the civil servants be political. Mr. Speaker, you talk about bagmen. They've got their bagmen. Mr. Speaker, they got their bagmen over there today, we know who most of them are. They know who ours are. The Liberal boys have their bagmen and so do the other political parties.

But could you imagine, you know, the Minister of Con sumer--you know I get a bang out of this Minister of Consumer Affairs because I think that he--! don't know how he got in the Cabinet and I don't know whether .. . , because I asked him, Mr. Speaker, I asked him a simple quest ion about the price of bread today and he said it's going up all over the world. He said, you know, that he was going to take over that portfolio, he's going to handle bread. Read some of the statements he made. He said I'll look after the consumers of this province. I'll keep the bread prices down.

I suspect that by the time he gets out of office bread will likely be a buck a loaf. It's the same thing, Mr. Speaker--well, Mr. Speaker, I feel sorry for the civil servants of this

127 6 March 11, 197 4 Bll.. L7 (MR. McKEN ZIE cont'd) .. province if we pass this kind of legislation. Could you imagine what's going to happen to some of them if they don't toe the line with the Executive Council, if they don't toe the line with that Minister, if they don't toe the line with his committee or if the other committee - because when they want to reclassify them the same committee couldn't reel ass them so it's going to be another committee and maybe another committee. Mr. Speaker, the civil servants of this province have no way out if we pass that legislation. They have no way out. And, Mr .

Speaker, I say why, why, after a hundred years of history in this province, where our civil servants have been the best of anywhere in North America and maybe in the world, why make them second rate citizens by making them bag for political parties? Mr. Speaker, there's no way that the people, or myself, of Roblin constituency can support that kind of legislation, never. Never, Mr. Speaker. Never ask the civil servants to go and bag for political parties, put up signs, drive cars, do all those things. A MEMBER: You forgot the bagman. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, the kind of civil servants that I want to come out and look after the people in my constituency are the ones that when the writ is issued, who looks after the province? They do. We can trust them with the money. We can trust them with the assets of this province. We can trust them with everything in this province because that's the kind of a Civil Service we have in this province. And they want to take it away. The Minister of Public Works says : What's wrong with, when the writ's issued? That's what's wrong when the writ's issued.

Somebody's got to look after this province until the new government takes over. And that's where we want the kind of a Civil Service we've had in the past hundred years and that's why I want the people of Manitoba to have that kind of a Civil Service for the next hundred years. No politicians, no bagmen, no people running around putting up political signs. No way, Mr. Speaker. And the Minister of Public Works talks about discrimination. A MEMBER: He's so young. MR. McKENZIE: So young, you know.

He's still walking around with that old Regina Manifesto in his hip pocket and he reads it at breakfast time, and he reads it at noon, then he meets the Minister of Co nsumer Affairs in the afternoon and they read it again. And they listen to this Minister of Labour who should know better than bring in that kind of legislation in. But he's been brainwashed by, you know, some of the Upper Sanctum Lewis and Trudeau who go to bed every night and they've likely got to him. Mr. Speaker, before I sit down I've got to have a lot more answers. --(I nterjection)-- I had my dinner. I had a steak. A sirloin steak .. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. McKEN ZIE: ... and I paid for it. Is that any of your business? A MEMBER: None of your business. MR. McKENZIE: I generally eat in the evening. -- (Interjections)- -But, Mr. Speaker, it's typical, and I suspect, you know, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour asked me what I had for supper, the Minister of Public Works will ask me tomorrow ... --(I nterjection)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. McKENZIE: ... the Minister of Consumer Affairs, he'll ask me the next day.

Becaus e when one says something over there, they all fall in line; they all march along, and they're all standing up and trying to convince me that I'm going to support that kind of legislation. I said: No way, until you give me some answers that I haven't got today. There's no way, McKenzie and the people of Roblin const ituency will support that bill, no way. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chairman, I just rise to remind you, Sir, that I had requested adjourn ment of the debate, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, with of course some reservation for anybody who wished to speak in the meantime, so ... MOTION presented and carried. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you'd call Bill 17, 18 and 20 in the order that they stand on . . . MR . SPEAKER: Very well. Bill No. 17. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Can I have the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand, Mr. Speaker? (Agreed)

March 11, 197 4 12 77 BILL 7 MR . SPEAKER: Agreed. Bill No. 18. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR . J. R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Could I have this matter stand, Mr. Speaker? (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 20. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR . MOR RIS McGREGO R (Virden): Stand, Mr. Speaker. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. P AULLEY: The destiny of Manitoba carries on despite the oppositioa. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member, as the Honourable the Minister of Education, that, Mr. Speaker ... I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, if you can hear the motion. I move, seconded by the Hollourable the Minister of Education that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTI ON presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. SUPPLY - LABOUR MR. CHAillMAN: Resoluti on 74 (a), pass. --The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, when we left off on Fr iday, many of us on this side of the House were waiting to hear from the Minister with respect to some of the urgent matters confronting him and his department on which the welfare of Manitoba economics in society depends to a great extent and I would hope that we might in the few minutes available to us tonight hear one or two comments from him.

I'd like to observe that certainly we are very happy to have learned on Friday and on Saturday from civic authorities in Winnipeg that the contract dispute between the City of Winnipeg police and the City of Winnipeg itself had been resolved, and then to hear the Minister respond to a planted question this afternoon in the Legislature, which gave him the opportunity to repeat to us the news that we had all got on Friday and Saturday. I would like to just observe for the record, Mr. Ch airma.n, that we on this side were certainly happy with the news of the settl ement .

We still want to know why this Minister, who piloted the unification--or didn't pilot the Unification Bill, that's incorrect--but who was instrumental along with many of his colleagues in shaping the City of Winnipeg unification legislation of some three years ago, and certainly was a powerful spokesman for it on its passage through the House--what he has to say now a'1d how he defends and justifies and reconciles himself, not before me, not before other labour critics in this Legislature, but before a half million Winnipeggers and a million Manitobans, as to why he sacrificed the integrity of the Police Force of the City of Winnipeg to his philosophy and his colleagues' philosophy and their doctrines and their determined efforts to ram through the kind of social tinkering that took the form of that Act? (Applause) That's all right for the Minis ter ... --(I nterjection)-- I'm going to give him an opportunity, Mr.

Chairman. He had it- well it's very interesting, you know, it's very interesting, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister now sits there and from the seat of his chair calls out to me as to whether I'm going to give him an opportunity to speak or not. He had an opportunity three, four minutes ago; he didn't get up, he was hoping that Item 1 would slide through without any further comment on his estimates. A MEMBER: Carry on ... MR . SHERMAN: And so I got up to hold the debate on that item, because it's his salary and it's his salary that we're concerned with.

The way he's been operating his department leads us to suggest perhaps to him that he's vastly overpaid for the incompetence and the inept ness that he's brought to issues in this province. A MEMBER: Give him a buck. MR . SHERMAN: So for him to sit there, Mr. Chairman, and say: Are you going to give me an answer, are you going to give me an opportunity to answer? - is a farce, and it's typical of the kinds of comments that he made on Friday when he first spoke, and on Thursday evening.

On Friday he went through the crying towel routine of suggesting that he tried to be brief on Thursday night in his opening remarks, and that my criticism of the superficiality of his Thursday night's statement was unfounded, was unfounded and unfair because he only had 20 minutes on the clock, and therefore he didn't have the opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to go into the kind of detail, to go into the kind of delivery that perhaps the difficulty in his departmental

1278 March 11, 1974 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ..... area of responsibility demands. Well, the problem that escapes the Minister, obviously, Mr. Chai rman, is that, you know, nobody on this side was expected--we knew he only had twenty minutes, it was twenty to nine when he spoke, no one expects him to go twenty-one or twenty-two minutes when he's only got twenty. That wasn't the point. The point was, he should have stood up there on Thurs day night and said: "Mr.

Chairman, Members of this Assembly, there are difficult ies in the industrial relations field in Manitoba today, there are problems with the mish-mash that we in the New Democratic Party made of the City of Winnipeg Unification Bill; as a cons equence there has been an unfortunate series of events related to the contract negotiations with the Police Department.

There are a number of strikes that have escaped the solution that members of my department have attempted to bring to them up to this point in time; there's difficulty with the unemployment totals that have now soared close to twenty thousand in the province; there is difficulty with unemployment in the garment industry, a critical industry in this province. " But he wouldn't say that. No, he got up and said--No ... --(Interjections)-- Well, Mr.

Chairman, if I'm in the gutter, if I'm in the gutter, I learned it from the Minister of Labour. --(I nterjections)-- If I'm in the mire, I learned it from that Minister, who put on an exhibition in this Chamber on Fr iday afternoon, Mr.

Speaker, that must have reached an all-time low in absurdity, or an all-time high in absur dity, whatever the term might be, but I just hope that many of his constit uents and many of his department ass istants witnessed the performance that he put on, because it was absolutely beneath the normal level of conduct in a Ch amber of this sort. --(Interjection)--Well, now he 's sitting there, he's calling me a dirty rat. That's fine, that's a typical kind of reaction from the Minister.

What we asked from this Minister on Thurs day--all we expected fro m him was a forth right, conscientious admission that there are difficulties that he has got to attend to and a pledge that he was attending and a commitment to attend to them, and an assurance that he would follow through. Instead of that, we got twenty minutes of self-congratulations and platitudes tell ing us how wonderful everything was in the industrial relations field in the province.

And then, Sir, when I and a few others of us had the audacity on Friday to say that those remarks were superficial, he appealed to the sensiti vity of everybody in the House on the grounds that- well, the clock was against him and he didn't have time to say anything. He had time to say there were difficulties, he had time to say there were challenges, he had time to say there was things that he should be doing in this area of his responsibility. But he didn't say that.

He just said everything was fine and he expected, I know, that his estimates would slide through on that superficial assess ment of the situation from himself . But it turns out, Sir, that we are not in a mind or a mood or an inclination to let them slide through that way. We want answers from the Minister. So for--if so, I'm not impressed--I'm not impressed by his despair over the fact that he's not going to have an opportunity tonight. He had an opportunity when you called Resolution 74, Mr. Ch airman, and he'll have lots of opportunity tomorrow, hopefully, and the next day if he wants it.

I'm prepared to listen to him answer and explain and tell us what he's doing to reduce the unemployment level in the province; what he's doing in the area for pre ventive mediation to make sure that the most modern applications of collective bargaining are being practiced in the province; and what he's doing to solve the labour shortage in the garmeat industry; what he's doing to ensure that that industry is acting responsibly in the area of wages so that that chronic difficulty doesn't continue to recur; and what he's doing to ensure that in the future the position and the integrity of organizations like the Winnipeg Police Force are not sacrificed to the doctrine and the philosophy and the social tinkering that are involved in the City of Winnipeg legislation passed here three years ago.

The problem, Mr. Ch airman, I suggest, is that the Minister has felt that he has achieved the be-all and the end-all of a Min ister of Labour as a result of the passa ge of the Labour Relations Act of Manitoba two years ago, and that that's all he has to do, and that the rest now is up to his department to follow through on. Well, I know that the Minister thinks highly and with good reason of the offic ers of his department who work under him. I congratulate him for those officers; I congratulate him for the opportunities that he's given them to do their jobs, and I congratulate them on the jobs they're doing.

Where I take exception to the Minister's performance, where I fight with him and where I challenge him, is on the degree to which he is giving them leadership and on the degree to which he is permitting the interest of his party and his doctrine and his socialist philosophy to permeate and thus distort the things that should

March 11, 1974 1279 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR . SHERMAN cont'd) ... .. be done in the labour field here in Manitoba. He has stood up here in this House and implied--implied if not said in so many words, that there's no dis crimination in terms of hiring labour force, in terms of hiring workers for jobs in Manitoba where this government is concerned, that he doesn't care where those workers come from, whether they come from the Phillipines or whether they come from the Ukraine, or whether they come from England. And that's a laudable philosophy and a laudable concept, but you can't have it both ways, Mr. Chairman.

You can't say, when we questioned him about Saunders Aircarft, that this government is looking in England and in other parts of the world for labour because we don't care where a man comes from, and then say on the other hand when we ques tion him about labour for the garment industry, that this governme:1t is not going to be amenable to accepting labour from the Phillipines. I agree that the first choice and the first opportunity must be given Manitobans. But I don't think that it is fair politics or fair ball or fair ethics to discriminate as between sources of labour in one part of the world and another.

And we have talked in this House about the possible recruitment of labour in England for Saunders Aircraft and met bland kinds of self-congratulatory statements from the other side saying that, well, we don't care where a man comes from, we want him anyway to fill the jobs here. Well, we haven't had that kind of a response when we've asked the Minister about the garment industry; we've had quite the opposite attitude.

In fact, the implication from the Minister is, that come hell or high water, there aren't going to be any workers imported, that it doesn't - you kno� that he'll carry his policy of Manitobans first in that industry to the degree where it might even cost the industry something. Now I have said before and I say again that I hope he can fill those jobs with Manitobans but what is he doing about filling those jobs with Manitobans ? He says to me that the garment industry is irresponsible in terms of wages and that people come in and fill jobs in the garment industry and then move on somewhere else.

Well he should be doing so mething about bringing the garment industry up to par and up to scratch and up to minimum wage. These are the ans wers we want from this Minister and he'll ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. The hour being 9:00 o'clock, the last hour of every day be ing Private Members' Hour, committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. SP EAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WlLLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SP EAKER: Monday, Private Members' Hour is Private Members ' Res olutions. Res olution No. 21. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. RESOLUT ION 21 MR. G . JO HNSTON: Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Me mber fo r Assiniboia, that

WHEREAS this House recognizes that people living in northern or remote areas face a higher cost of living than those citizens living in urban and southern areas, and that such cost of living increase is not presently taken into account in the tax and wage structures 1 laws in Manitoba;

NOW THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government give consideration to amending the minimum wage regulations in Manitoba to provide that in northern and remote areas the minimum wage shall always and automatically be not less than 15 percent higher than the mini mum wage in general use throughout the province. MOTION presented. · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHN STON: Well, Mr. Speaker, in submitting this resolution I would suppose that no rthern members would say, well what business is it of a member from the southern

part

1280 March 11, 197 4 RESOLUTI ON 21 (MR . G. JOHNSTON cont'd) .. .. . of the province to concern himself with northern matters . But if that thought is entertained, then I suppose the shoe fits on the other foot when it comes to discussing policy that has to do with the general well-being of the province.

Some years ago - and there are some members in this House, the Member for Swan River f or one and the Minister of Nort hern Affairs were part of a northern Task Force which made a winter-long survey, if that's the term of conditions in northern Manitoba; I beli eve the commit tee and parts, sub-commi�tees of the main committee, attended a total of 39 meetings and 39 different communities pretty well covering northern Manitoba--whether it was the remote com munities or the straight northern communities such as Thompson and Flin Flon and The Pas- and if one train of thought came through from the people who spoke of their problems in the north, it went something like th is: the first concern was lack of opportunity, and this would apply to education and it would apply to the employment situation.

The second matter that con cerned the residents was the high cost of living, and time and time again-·-I believe the Member for Flin Flon who was also on that committee will bear me out when I say that almost every time we met with the people it related to the high cost of living in talking about their problems. the lack of communication whether it was telephone or roads, and the lack of opportunity. Now in recent years the government has taken some steps and I give them some credit for that, to alleviate the high cost of living or to alleviate a special problem, and I can mention two in passing.

First of all the government took off the tax for gas as it was used in skidoos and marine craft in the north; the people felt that they were being taxed unfairly for the construc tion of roads and the government recognized this and they did take a small step in that direction and removed some of the tax on gas which applied to skidoos and marine craft.

Recently an arm of government, the Manitoba Liquor Commission, recognized that there was a problem, a social problem through the consumption of certain types of alcohol in the north--and I don't say they were right or they were wrong, but at least they tried and by regulation there was an attempt made to attack the particular problem that was confronting the Manitoba Liquor Co mmission with regards to the overconsumption as they thought of certain alcoholic beverages.

Now for years this government has recognized the fact that provincial civil servants, in order to keep them working in the north, have had a differential in pay scale which was supplied by way of a cost of living bonus . While the pay may have stayed the same for a forester or a teacher in the southern and northern areas, it was recognized that there was a great difference in the cost of living so a cost of living bonus is given to many of the civil servants who operate in northern Manitoba.

As rece ntly as the Estimates of the Minister for Nor thern Affairs it was recognized that the 44 contract people that he had hired, I believe their pay scale raised from about $7 , 000 a year to $20, 000 a year and some of the jobs we are given to understand were part time. So that even in his department he has recognized the fact that you have to pay pretty good salaries for people to go out into the remote communities of the north or even into the northern communities.

The retail food price index that was given out by the Minister of Industry and Commerce points out the sad story that faces the people of northern Manitoba, and I'll just quote from a few: In Churchill where there is a railway but no highway the cost of living, the average index was 27 points over the cost of living in Winnipeg ; in Flin Flon which has both rail and road service, excellent road service from the south, that cost of living is only 16. 7 points higher than in Winnipeg; The Pas, 14. 31 points above Winnipeg, and Thompson which has a good road and rail service and air service is only 9. 13 points above the cost of living in Winnipeg.

Yet when we look at a remote community that has neither road nor rail service and not that good of air service, God's Lake Na rrows--and no winter roads, one of the members said behind me- the cost of living was 50 percent higher than the cost of living - 50 percent higher than the cost of living in Winnipeg. So it can readily be seen and apparent that where there are no roads the cost of living is quite a bit higher than where there is a road and railway or one or the other, either a road or a railway. So for these reasons, Mr. Speaker, I present this resolution for the consideration of the House.

Government may well say, well how do you--how would you ma.-'�e this work? Well you can make it work through the tax system for one thing, because everybody has to file an income tax return, but it can be made to work through the application of the minimum wage. If a per son is north of a certain parallel, I believe the 53rd parallel is quite commonly referred to as the starting or the jumping off point into what we call northern Manitoba. So I would hope that the

Ma rch 11, 1974 1281 RESOLUTION 21 (MR. G. JOHN STO N cont'd) .. ... Minister of Labour could perhaps say a few words on this matter and members of the government could give us their opinion. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of No rthern Affairs. MR . McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the honourable member for giving us an opportunity to discuss a matter that's very dear to my heart, and that's matters in northern Manitoba. Of course, Mr. Speaker, it's a matter that's very dear to the hearts of many members on this side of the House.

I suppose that's one of the things that's bothering the Member for Po rtage la Prairie, is that members from the north are all on th is side of the House. I guess it would be not incons iderate of me to point out that the Liberal Party we just heard from had considerable difficulty fielding candidates in northern Manitoba; they couldn't find any in The Pas, they had one quit on them in Thompson, and there were numerous prob lems that that group encountered in terms of finding someone to represent them a.t election time in northern Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman, I think I could make a few comments directly on the matters raised by the Member for Po rtage la Prairie. He summed up to some extent the feelings of communities in northern Manitoba as were expressed to the Nor thern Task Force when we went around a number of years ago and, Mr. Chairman, I recall that at the last session or the session before, the session before I attempted to explain each recommendation in the No rthern Task Force Report and in terms of what this government had done in terms of that recommendation.

Members weren't too anxious to hear that detailed report in terms of how those recommendations have been dealt with by the present government. But let me give a small example, Mr. Speaker. The Me mber for Portage la Prairie mentioned (1) the matter of opportunity, which is one that I would like to speak further on. He mentioned the high cost of living which is so mething that's very evident in northern Manitoba, and he mentioned communication which I don't see my notes in front of me on.

However, it should be pointed out that the Minister responsible for communi cations - as a matter of fact early today gave me a number of press releases and press stories relating to the efforts to provide communication facilities in northern Manitoba. Now, Mr. Speaker, this aspect doesn't relate directly on the cost of living, although I think there are definite implications in terms of the cost of living.

But when people at Berens River cannot get out on their radio telephone for a number of days; when the people at Norway House and Cross Lake are often without signals for many days and there was just no way of communicating with the outs ide world, then I think you'll understand the importance of the kind of communica tions development that is going on--and I know that members in this Hous e who are part of the Public Utilities Co mmittee and heard from the Chairman of Telephones realize that a good part of the operation of Manitoba Telephone System is geared towards providing communication facilities in northern Manitoba, communities that never had these before, communities such as Cross Lake ...

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I realize I must allow a little bit of latitude in regards to this resolution., but I do believe it's in res pect to the minimum wage and I would hope the Honourable Minister will collate the material he's got before him in that direction. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your guidance and direction, although it was quite clear that the resolution does talk in terms of the cost of living in northern Manitoba and that the minimum wage is one method of dealing with that cost of living.

I would like to point out that there are many ways of dealing with that problem in terms of the high costs in the northern part of our province and that minimum wage is only o:J.e and probably one of the less important in terms of all the manners, all the ways that we have at our disposal to deal with costs in the northern part of our province. The member specifically mentioned a couple of items that were brought forward by the Nor thern Task Force, and he said that he certainly had to give some credit to the government for doing two things in northern Ma'litoba. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that's pretty generous , we've done two things; changed the tax on gas used by fishermen and trappers in the remote com munities, and the Liquor Co mmiss ion withdrew certain wines, I think that he was referring to- and these are what the government has done in no rthern Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, where has he been? Where has he been for the last five years that he thinks that's all that this government has done in the northern part of our province ? He must-- (Interjection)- -maybe he was in Portage la Pr airie, Mr.

Speaker, the kinds of things that we're talking about in terms of cost of living in northern Manitoba is the kind of things to do with economic development, the kind

12 82 March 11 , 197 4 RESOLU TION 21 (MR . McBRYDE co�t'd ) ..... of things to do with job placement, the kind of things to do with improved transportation in northern Manitoba. And the Member for Portage specifically mentioned when he was referring to the consum er prices ' review which, Mr. Ch airman, is one of those things this government has done in order to understand and hopefully have some influence on the cost of goods in northern Manitoba--just one of the things not listed in the member's long list of two items, that referred to where there was roads. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I don't know where the Member for Portage la Prairie has been. I don't suppose that he's aware that there's been quite a few changes in the road from Winnipeg to Grand Rapids. I don't suppose he's aware of the fact there's a completely new road from Grand Rapids to Thompson. I don't suppose he's aware of the fact that there's a completely new road from Thompson to Leaf Rapids. I don't suppose that he's aware of the fact that there's a new road from Leaf Rapids to Lynn Lake. Mr. Speaker, I don't know where he's been for the last five years.

In looking at the resolution, I think it's important that members opposite who have dis played their ignorance in terms of the situation in the northern part of our province understand that we have in northern Manitoba really two groups of communities . We have the urban com munities such as Thompson, Lynn Lake, Churchill, Gillam, The Pas, Flin Flon, the centers that are mostly based on the resource industries in the northern part of our province, and we have the remote communities.

Now this resolution does in some way deal with the problems faced in the urban centers in the northern part of our province where the majority of workers are under collective agreement, where they have the opportunity to get wages far above that considered by the minimum wage, and I think it's important to understand that in fact changes in labour legislation which allow workers to organize to bargain for their salaries, for the rates they're going to work ·for, is probably a far more effective instrument than changes in minimum wage.

Changes in minimum wage is one instrument, but the ability to organize and establish themselves into a collective bargaining unit is a far more effective tool of improving a person's standard of living of allowing people to have a decent rate of return for their labour. But the situation in the remote communities in northern Manitoba is not similar. It is not one where the problem is with the minimum wage as it might be for the unorganized workers in an urban centre.

I think if the Member for Portage la Prairie would take the time and effort he could understand what has been done rn terms of remote communities to increase the opportunity for employment in those communities and the opportunity for people in thos e communities to take advantage of other employment in other communities in the northern part of our province. So the main problem there is not the rate of the minimum wage, the main problem there is, any job at all.

I think that the member, since he is interested in this subject, would probably be interested in the kind of developments that have taken place in order to provide any job at all, even if it is at the present minimum wage rate in those communities . But it's far better than the opportunities that are available for northern residents, or were available to northern residents in the past. Mr. Speaker, thes e come in the area of, in terms of job placement, of establishing a northern m&'lpower corps in Nor thern Manitoba to assist people in remote communities to take advantage of job opportunities.

This means having in every community a person who lets these other residents of the community know what the jobs coming open are and assis t them to be able to travel to get to take advantage of the jobs that come open in the northern part of our province. Sometimes the members opposite when unemployment rates are mentioned say, "Well, how about the hidden unemployed in northern Manitoba ?" I don't think its helped the statistics very much, Mr. Speaker, but there are very few hidden unemployed in northern Manitoba.

Through an extensive campaign to have people register with Canada Manpower to enable them to take advantage of employment opportunities in the northern part of a province, I think that just about every person in northern Manitoba, who is seek ing employment or has been seeking employ ment, is registered with Canada Manpower, shows up in the statist ics. But more important, they are assis ted to find these job opportunities that are available in that part of our province. Another aspect, I think a very important aspect, is the providing of economic opportunity right in the community in which people live.

And this has been done in numerous ways. It has been done through the Communities Economic Development Fund to assist persons to establish their own ente rprises in communities in northern Manitoba. It has been done through Bill 17

March 11, 1974 1283 RESOLUT ION 21 (MR . McBRYDE cont'd) .. .. . which enables us to set up Crown corporations for the harvest ing of natural resources. It has been done through the Northern Manpower Corps and Manago Constr uction, which not only places people in jobs, but is actually a training and a job-providing agency in the form of Manago co:-�tractors and the Churchill housing. I think that's an important point to understand. Because

whereas, in the past--whereas in the past the large number of residents in the community of Ch urchill have been not even at the rate of the minimum wage, have been at the rate of social assi stance recipients, are now at a wage rate that applies to con struction industry in Northern Manitoba. Probably, Mr. Speaker, ten times what they were earning before this opportunity was available to them, and doing a good job at it. One of the members opposite mentioned the situation at Churchill Fo rest Industries in The Pa s. And, Mr.

Speaker, I think it's well known that people on this side of the House did not criticize the employment opportunities created, they criticized the manner in which that opportunity was taken at the expense of the people of the Province of Manitoba. But even in that case--even in that case, it required some considerable change so that that particular opera tion employed local northern residents. That was not the case in spite of what members of the opposition said when we came to off ice, Mr. Speaker.

Another way in which employment opportunities have been taken advantage of, and the Member for Po rtage referred to the Nor thern Task Force report, and I think one of the things the No rthern Task Force report said that, we have to assist people in remote communities by helping them with what industries are there now; a. 'ld the industries there now for the most part are things such as fishing and trapping.

I think, as the First Minister has said, and the Ministe r of Co -operative Development has said, there are problems in assisting that kind of industry to keep going, an industry that is quite marginal in the way it operates. That in fact, if mistakes are made that particular operation can lose money. And I think it's not without credit due to the members opposite that many years ago they recognized this. That they crea ted a department to assist, Fish ermen's Co -operatives in northern Manitoba, that they went out and assisted people in communities in northern Manitoba to establish fishing co operatives.

Some of those fishing co-operatives were successf ul, some of them, Mr. Speaker, were unsucces sful. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside, state his matter of privilege. MR. ENNS: We've been told often enough that nothing happened in this province in the last 100 years, until this government came. So I object to the Minist er's even tacit recogni tion .. . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. That is not a matter of privilege. The Ho'lourable Minister of No rthern Affairs. MR.

McBRYDE: I think everyone recognizes the - entertain members suggestion that --(I nterjection)-- I have not been one of those members of this side of the House who did not give credit where credit is due. I have always given members opposite credit. I even praised the present member hollering from his seat for establishing, or being involved in the setting up, or the continued operation, succes sful operation of Government Air Services . I mentioned to them their effo rts in terms of employing people in northern Manitoba.

I mentioned the fact that they had a contractor at Grand Rapids who hired people in northern Manitoba to work for him, and that they finally had to go on strike becaus e they were paying native workers a different rate of pay than they were paying the non-native workers on that job. I mentioned, some of the things that they did in northern Manitoba. A MEMBER: That's so mething they did. MR. McBRYDE: And there was a couple of things they did. I'll even be more generous than the Member for Portage who said there were a couple of things that the New Democratic Party done while in offi ce. Mr.

Speaker, there are probably four things that the Con servatives did in their ten years in offi ce. And who's going to knock them for doing four good things ? --(lnterjection)--l'm having trouble recalling what they are, Mr. Chairman. But I did men tion .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. MR. McBRYDE: And I certainly have to express appreciation of members opposite fo r having hired me a number of years ago, when they were in office, to serve people in the north ern part of our province. I have to compliment them on their effort to assist co-operatives.

1284 March 11, 1974 RESOLUTIO N 21 (MR . McBRYDE cont'd) ..... It is rather unfo rtunate that their co-operative development only involved the harvesting of supplies and was not really of assis tance to consumer co operatives. I suppose they're afraid thes e co-operatives might compete with some of their friends. But they didn't want to get into the area of consumer co-operatives which the Co- operative Department has now moved into, another way to assist people in remote communi ties, to lower the cost of living.

I noticed one thing that was absent in the Member for Portage la Prairie's speech this year; last year the whole discussion on this particular resolution related around winter roads. Now, I don't know if he doesn't think he can score points on that subject any more, or if he feels that Elman Guttormson is doing a good enough job criticizing the winter roads, that he doesn't have to enter into that, afraid that in fact, that his friend Mr.

Sigfusson is being well represented without him speaking on the subject of winter roads in this particular House. --(Interjection)--My court case the member enquires - I'm open to receiving donations from anyone who wishes to help pay the cost of that, and I would warn honourable members not to use the phrase Robber Barons outside of the Legislature in talking about monopoly situations that took advantage of the people in northern Manitoba. But I do not understand why the Member for Portage didn't mention the winter road system.-- (Interjection)--Mr.

Chai rman, it's very humorous and I should have got onto the winter roads subject when my time was just beginning, because I could have given the members quite an interesting lesson on a pretty succes sful opera tion this year. Mr. Speaker, the fact that two roads are not in, and I haven't seen a transcript of a radio program in Thompson this morning, where the Leader of Oppos ition imp!ied that we didn't give them that information.

Because I have before me all the reports filed in this House which indi cated that the construction to the small communities of Little Grand Rapids and to Red Sucker Lake were not, in fact, completed. Mr. Speaker, that involved eight truckloads to Little Grand Rapids and five and a half truckloads to Red Sucker Lake. I don't have the figures on the total haulage done this year. But I believe that the amount of goods hauled in thus far this year exceed any amount that have been hauled in in the past to these communities in northern Manitoba.

I believe that the material, that the goods that they haul on winter roads is over eighty-five percent complete at this time; and in the area around Ilford, the truckers assure me that there is no problem there for quite awhile yet in terms of getting those goods in and they have no concern at this particular point.

I would also mention for members opposite, and I was reading the Member for Po rtage's speech last year, in which he said that certain private enterprise were able to haul into north ern Ontario last year, and yet my sources, including the Winnipeg Free Press, confirm that in fact the hauler had the same trouble, the former free enterprise hauler had the same prob lem in northern Ontario that we had in northern Manitoba during last year's winter haul season. But this year's program can be termed, Mr.

Chairman, a success; and I think a success that will show that we were able to lower the cost of goods to thos e communities. (Hear, hear) . . . . . continued on next page

March 11, 1974 1285 RESOLU TION 21 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister 's time is up. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR . SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker, this resolution is one that deserves that earnest con sideration of all of us in this Chamber, pleading as it does for consideration for that part of our province which truly is the frontier and hope for our future .

I think that I can say that, on this side of the House, in this party at any rate , we support, in principle, any propositions of this kind aimed at increasing the economic viability and the social viability of the north in alleviating problems in that part of the province . I don•t profess to stand here, Mr.

Speaker, as any kind of an authoritative commentator on the north, but I can say this, that just as I am an English-speaking Canadian who loves Quebec and believes that Canada would be the poorer without Quebec, I am a southern Manitoban who loves what I know of the north and believes that the north contains the great fu ture and the great hope for our province.

I know that various indices of difficu lty have been made available to us from time to time with respect to costs in the north, and we all recognize the overriding fact of northern lights which is the remoteness and the economic underdevelopment and the consequent hardship that is worked on people who are trying to provide for their families . We , in the Conser vative Party have taken this fact of life into consideration on the public record in the past, Mr . Speaker, and our record, I think, tes tified to that fact.

In last June•s election campaign we proposed specifically that northern diffe rential in housing construction costs b:e provided by our party if it were elected to administer the aff airs of the province to compensate, at least in some small measure , for the costs of construction, construction materials, transportation and living generally in the great northern part of the province . We•re familiar with the retail food price index reports that underscore those chronic difficulties .

We•re familiar with the recitation in this House and outside it, authoritative and documented; of the transportations costs and difficulties of the high cost of living generally; of the very onerous additional burden that northerners in our province have to carry insofar as building their homes or communities and providing for their families .

So that I want to say, Sir , that even though I confess to my northern frie nds, the Honour able for Flin Flon, the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, the Honourable Member for Thompson, the Honourable Member for Churchill and the Honourable Member for The Pas , and those in constituencies close to those that I have mentioned, Sir . That even though I confess to a relative ignorance of those problems and those difficulties , it•s only an ignorance insofar as being exposed to them for any great length of time is concerned.

I have attempted to listen to the pleas from northern members , the story of the north whenever it 's been available to me, either through my own busin ess, through the sess ions in this Chamber or through material from the north that comes my way, and I• ll co nt.inue to try to educate myself in the problems in the affa irs of the north.

But, Sir, though I speak as I say , from a relative ignorance of the situation, I wish to assure all members that I speak for all my party, my entire caucus in this Chamber, when I say we are aware, we are conscious of those difficulties and we do subscribe in principle to the kinds of ass istance , the kinds of initiative embodied in the resolution before us at this time . But, let me say at the same time , Mr .

Speaker, that I think all members of this Chamber should understand and appreciate that increases in the minimum wage are not the panaceas , not the golden solut ions , not the instant answers to problems , that the theorists who propose them over and over again consider them to be . I agree with this resolution, Sir, in essen ce, because what it is saying to me is, that some things have got to be done by this Legislature and by those of us who represent more advantaged communities, in economic terms , in the south, to help the north grow and develop.

I agree with that philosophy , I agree with that concept, and that•s why I agree with the resol ution. I don't agree with the implication that the way to solve problems of an economic and social nature in this province in this day and age is just to continually go around boosting the minimum wage. It•s not that the persons working in the work stream in the province who receive the minimum wage or less than the minimum wage are not deserving of an increase , it's the fact, Mr .

Speaker, that by boosting the mini mum wage you are not necessarily guaranteeing them of any real improvement in their income, and in fact it•s been demonstrated I think that in many instances the hardships that they suffer in economic terms are increased by virtue of the fact that others in society, others in the community take advantage of the increase in the minimum wage and the cost-price inflation

1286 March 11, 1974 RESOLU TION 21 (MR . SHERMAN cont•d) •• , •. spiral just continues higher . The trouble with boostin g the minimum wage is precisely that, Sir . Itts not that I don't want to see everybody receive a fair return for his or her labours but we have to be sure that they are going to receive a fair return in terms of real value of their money in the market place, and all too often that prospective gain, that prospective improvement is illusory . All too ofte n it is diss ipated when the individual gets the actual increase into his or her hands and goes into the marketplace to make use of it.

Because all down the line , and I•m sure that my friend the Minister of Consumer and Co rporate Affairs addresses himself to this kind of difficulty from time to time, all down the lines these actions have their economic reactions . So while I believe as fervently as I ever did in free enterprise and in the right of the market to seek its own level in terms of just pay for just work, I do acknowledge that the continual resort to raising wage standards such as the minimum wage can be highly deceptive and highly illusory and may not produce any real benefit at all .

So it's at that point, Sir, that I quarrel with the resolution proposed by the Honourable Member fo r Portage la Prairie .

I believe that insofar as he is interested in helping the north - or let me put it in a less patronizing way - insofar as he is interested in all of us working to develop all parts of our province, I'm with him right down the line, but I think that this aspect of the resolution which is really the main part of it, that calls for a specific differential in minimum wage which really boils down to an increase in the minimum wage, is really what this resolution is trying to achieve and really what it is based upon. And I quarrel with that ba se .

I think that that•s one consideration that might be studied by this Legislature insofar as developing improvements and help for the north are concerned, but I quarrel with making that the base of our program to help Manitobans north and south achieve their full potential. I don't presume as I said earlier, Mr . Speaker, to pretend that I have any solutions but I would like to suggest that I believe , and have long believed, that for the north , as for many many other parts of Manitoba, a partial answer lies in decentralizat ton of Manitoba . And I am on record for this point of view for some time past, Mr .

Speaker. I have always felt notwithstanding my orientation here in urban Winnipeg, I have always felt that the biggest thing holding Manitoba back, the biggest handicap this province faces is that we live under the myth, and perhaps it•s not so much of a myth, we•ve accepted passively the impression that Manitoba is a one-city province and that Winnipeg is in fact Manitoba . And I say that that is the biggest handicap social, economic, administrative that we face in this province .

I have suggested in the past, and I think that the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce would agree with me , that wherever possible the greatest favour that can be done Win nipegers , and the greatest favour that can be done Manitobans in business terms, is to try to locate more industry and bus iness in centres like Brandon and get away from the continual con sol idation of it in Winnipeg. Well, Sir, that applies to all regions of this province, I say that sincerely and I'm merely repeating something I• ve said for many years even as a Win nipeger, that we are def eated in

part in reaching the full potential of this province vis- a-vis our western sist er provinces and the rest of Canada by virtue of the fact that we seem to confine our thinking on all levels to that square mile - and I use the term allegorically - to that square mile ins ide the Perimeter Highway .

The partial solution to the problems of the north , the partial solution to the problems of the Interlake, the partial solution to the problems of Brandon, the partial solution to the problems of the southeast region of the province surely must be a more concerted effo rt to decentralize the affa irs of Manitoba and move more and more of their offices and their administrative machinery into those other parts of the province. That applies to economic affairs , industrial affa irs , social affairs , governmental aff airs and educational affairs .

So I suggest, Sir, that in address ing ourselves to this resolution, the kind of philosophy embodied in it that we look beyond just the mechanical reaction of rushing to raise the minimum wage, and we look to developing much more of our busin ess, of our life , of our undertakings as Manitobans in a way that they can be located in large

part in other parts of the province , and particularly in the north . In this respect I would for the record like to echo a sentiment expressed earlier in the debate, informally by the Honourable Member for Lakes ide and then acknowledged by the Minister who spoke, that notwithstanding many of the other diffi culties which still remain

March 11, 197 4 1287 RESOL UTION 21 (MR . SHERMAN cont•d ) .•... unresolved, the decision to build the pulp and paper complex, the Churchill Forest Industries Complex at The Pas has proven in social and economic terms to have been a desirable thing, to have been a desirable development, to have given that part of the province north of 54 the opportunity to develop part of its potential and to provide a reason able means of livelihood to hundreds of people and their families .

I think that must be acknowledged, Sir , And I think that this government and any government succeeding it must do more with, of course , a continual attention to the difficulties that projects of that nature and of that scope can bring with them, while remaining alert for the difficulties that do oome with projects of that size , this government and any government succeeding it in Manitoba must continue to take initiatives to put industry into the north to help that part of the province achieve its potential .

And these are the things that I think we should be thinking about and addressing ourselves to when we look to the north and the needs there , rather than as I say the mechanical reflex of raising the minimum wage .

Therein I think, Sir, lies part of the solution to the north •s problems , part of the solution to the problems of other regions in the province and therefore part of the solution to Winnipeg's problems , because Winnipeg's problems stem in part from the fact that we don•t have the push and pull, the give and take , the competition with other cities and with other communities in this province that some Canadian cities enjoy in their own provincial boundaries .

And we don•t have to look very far to see the benefits - you don't have to look very far, Sir , to see the benefits that have accrued to cities like Calgary and Edmonton, Saskatoon and Regina, not to quite the same extent, but to many cities in this country from the existence of competition within their own provincial boundar ies . That •s something that we sadly lack in this province and I hope that we can address ourselves to strengthening the other parts of the province so that not only those parts are helped but as I• ve said Winn ipeg is helped . So, Mr.

Speaker, with those few words , I would suggest that we in this party support the resolution before us , we support it because it speaks for the north, not because it says boost the minimum wage and let•s go out and expand the cycle and boost the inflationary spiral and give somebody else a chance to boost his rents and boost his cons truction prices, not because of that, but simply because it speaks for the north , And on those grounds, Sir, I think we can offe r our support to it. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia . MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

I listened quite carefully to the Member for Fort Garry and I thought he was making pretty good ground until he got to the point where he said the base should not be the minimum wage, and I thought this was where he started to lose some ground. However, I do appreciate that he supports the principle that people in the north are disadvantaged and something has to be done .

If the member can offe r any alternatives I would be most happy to hear from him, because the Member for Portage has indicated - my colleague - that the principle has been established not only for some of the MLA •s who get a a higher indemnity or expense for the north but as well fo r the civil servants who go up there, and as well they receive higher expenses or increments for living or working in the north . So some principle has been established. Mr . Speak er, I know some other countries are - this is what has happened in the other countries .

Bef ore people will go north , you know, they have to know that the cost of living will be and what •s the remuneration and can they affo rd to live in the remote communities. So my opinion, Mr. Speaker, I• m glad the Honourable Member for Fort Garry has accepted the principle that some consideration has to be given, and you know I hope the debate will continue , that perhaps we can come with some suggestions or solutions .

I know that the Honourable Minister for Northern Affairs he talked about roads and was quite concerned that the Member for Portage, my colleague, did not talk about roads but he respected what Mr . Cleverley or Elman Gutto rmson had to say in the paper about northern roads . I know if he would have checked into one of the papers on Saturday, a complete report by one of the truck drivers who had driven a truck and he said never again he•ll drive on the road.

The road to Oxfo rd House and God•s Lake Nar rows which cost $176 ,0 00 was declared open two weeks ago, only four trucks had succeeded in getting through in the past week. So if that is the case I don•t think that the Minister should be too proud of his northern roads . --(Interjection)- - I believe the member has got a point, It•s open if you don•t have to use the roads,. Mr. Speaker,

1288 March 11, 1974 RESOLUTION 21 (MR . PATRICK cont•d) .•..• I know the other day the Member for Thompson indicated that the sales tax was the finest tax that we ever had, was the finest tax, And then he said it was only one of the Liberal members or one of the disenchanted NDP members in the union who became a Liberal, sneaked this resolution through at the NDP Convention or Labour Federation meeting and that•s how the resolution got through .

But I see in the news report from the Federation of Labour when they strongly snggest phasing out of the sales tax which has been long advocated by the Federation, and the names in this report if the Honourable Member for Thompson would like to hear such people as Mr. Stevens , the Pres ident of Manitoba Federation of Labour , Wilford, Vice Pres ident, ..• Jim Coult er , Henderson, Iverson, wonder if all these people are Liberals or who they are, and perhaps he can make up his own mind.

But listening to the Minister, you know after listening to him at some length one would be inclined to believe from his remarks that there 's no poverty in the north, there'S no poverty in .t he north , there's no subst andard wages in the north because the collective agree ments take care of that, But, Mr . Speaker, only somewhere between 25 and 30 percent of the people are under collective agreements ; perhaps up north it•s much higher, it's much higher . But this is, you know, the impres sion that I got from the Minister that almost everything has been solved by this government in the north .

That there was no poverty, that•s what the member said because I stated and written down some of the points that he said. He talked about collective agreements which take care of . . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Minister state his matter of privilege. MR. McBRYDE: My matter of privilege , Mr . Chairman, is that the member said I stated there was no poverty in the north . That is just completely incorrect, as of much of what he is saying is incorrect . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assin iboia. MR . PATRICK: Mr . Speaker, I wonder what kind of point of privilege the member had ?

I told him this is what I had taken from his speech . That •s taken from his speech . He said the collective agreements today, the bargaining which the Minister put the new labour code through last sessi on and because of more collective agreements and the collective bar gaining agreements take care of the wages . And I'm trying to make a case that this is not so. I•m not concerned about the people who are under the collective agreement , That•s not the people that we should worry about . They are taken care of, Mr. Speaker .

It•s the ones that are on substan dard wages, that•s the ones we should be concerned about , that•s the ones we should be concerned about eliminating poverty caused by existence of substan dard wages , not the ones that are covered by collective agreements . And the Minister did talk about collective agreements , that•s what he said, If he wants to refer back to his speech he talked about collective agreements and the bargaining takes place and the wages are negotiate d. Well that•s not the ones that I•m concerned about.

The ones that I• m concerned about is the ones that are not on the collective agreements , and the cost of living is much higher . I think that - well I hope the Minister will have a chance to read his speech again and take a pretty close look at what he said, I know that the purchasing power of these people is much less than -- who are under collective agreements , and that•s the ones that I• m really con cerned and I think this is the case that the Member for Portage tried to make.

Now the other point that the Minister did say was that there are some problems in remote areas but he said that there weren't many people seeking jobs in remote areas , And again I would have disagreed with him very much, Mr. Speaker, because . • . - -(Interjection)-- sure it was, MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister on his privilege. MR . McBRYDE: Again, Mr . Chairman, the Member for Assiniboia said "the honourable member said," he didn•t say "he implied, " that he said that the honourable member said that there was not much employment in remote communities. Mr .

Chairman, that•s not what I said , that is not correct. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. MR . PATRICK: Well the Honourable Minister did mention that, you know, he almost solved all the problems in the north and that was one of the points that he raised, he implied it. So what we •re saying in here we must provide a floor, we must provide a floor for

March 11, 197 4 1289 RESOLUTION 21 (MR . PATRICK cont'd) .•••• maintaining a reasonable wage structure for the people that cannot take care of themselves , who are not under the collective agreements and who make the same minimum wage as the people do in this centre , in Winnipeg, or other urban centres in this part of the province, and the cost of living - Mr . Speaker, just take a look at these statistics yourself. I hope you would take a minute and find out that the cost of living is 50 percent higher than in the city, in some of the centres , in God •s Lake , 50 percent higher.

And agam, I know the Member from Thompson is saying, "But the wage is higher." I know the wage is higher fo r the people that are under collective agreements ; it•s higher for those people that are under collective agreements . But, Mr . Speaker, what about the people that are not under collective agreements which is a very large percentage? Probably more than 50 percent. What about those people? Where do they get their wages subsidized and how ? How do they get their cost of living su bsidized, not like the civil servants do -- and jus tifiably so, they should have them subsidized .

They should have them supported somehow, which the Minister is agreeing to the principle that the civil servants up north do get an increment or living allowance . The MLA•s do, and I• m not saying that this is the proper solution, that this is the thing that will correct the whole thing. But I think that the principle, the principle is worthwhile discus si ng, and I know this is done in other areas . Perhaps I can relate to the member, only a week ago I had an opportunity to talk to the Young Liberal •s Conventi on . There was at least 150 young univers ity students there . They were there with open minds .

There was some there that were NDP and there were some that were Con servatives. In fact there was , I believe a niece of the Member for Morris , she was there . There were people there with open minds that were interested.

There was a debate about the cost of living in the north , and there was one student got up and he said, "Look, I cannot afford" - he was graduating this year in Phys ical Education I believe, and he says , "I will not go north and I can•t affo rd to go north , unless the wage differential would be established by the government ." I know it's not going to affect him , but this is the attitude of many young people. They will not take the opportunity to go north and they would like to go -- unless there is some support for wages to , you know, to control the high cost of living in the north.

Surely the Minister for Northern Affairs knows that and I 'm sure he agrees with that . And I•m sure the other members - I would like to know what the other members from the north feel. --(interjec tion)-- Yes, I'm very much interested and I hope that we •ll be able to hear from you . I know theres concern as well, and the Member for Fort Garry mentioned that the, you know, that sometimes the higher minimum wage will affect, you know , the cost that the in dividual employer has to pay and he may reduce the labour fo rce, am sure, these are the concerns that we all have to be concerned with .

But surely the Minister, I hope the Minister of Northern Affairs will give this some cons ideration and maybe perhaps his people can do a survey to see if it•s feasibl e . That•s all that the resolutions are when they•r e proposed in this House , for open debate. I hope that we •ll be able to hear from the other members . I see my time is up, Mr . Speaker. It•s 10 o• clock, so per�ps we can call it a day. MR . SPEAKER: The hour of adjournment having arrived, the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:3 0 tomorrow afternoo n.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-48
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 48.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e1e33010e7f535a327a6fefc227aa504b987384f

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).