Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, APRIL 15, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 32

April 15, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape no. 1421 Page 1 - mw I would like to welcome to the Speaker's gallery today the Hon. Member for St. John's West in the House of Commons, with his son. I sincerely on behalf of all honourable members welcome you to the Speaker's gallery. The Hon. Member for Burgeo-Lal'oile. _MR. A. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to rise on a point of personal privilege on a statement made by the member for Bell Island this morning regarding a so-called letter that he had from the people in LaPoile regarding the lack of phone services in their area. Mr. Speaker, the first thing that occurs to me is how crazy can someone get and still live! Has he got any idea at all - MR. S. A. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. EVANS: You! MR. SPEAXER: Order, please! MR. EVANS: Has he got any idea whatsoever regarding the fact that this government is not responsible for installations by C.N.T.?

Or if so, how can you excuse the fact that after twenty-three years of Liberal, so-called Liberal mis-government in this Province that it is passed along to us today? MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. EVANS: And that goes along, Mr. Speaker, with the pattern of what we see today, anarchy as advocated by adversaries of this government. They are advocating to the people of this Province that polluted water after living in the vorst state of pollution of Liberal government in this Province for twenty-three years - MR, NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 4192

Apr1l 15, 1975 Tape no, 1421 Page 2 - mw The Chair does not consider the point raised by the Hon. Member for Burgeo-La Poile to be a point of privilege. SOMJ, HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR . SPEAKER: Order , pl ease! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: HON. T. V. HICKEY (Minister of Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement which was issued to the press today, and I think it is fitting that it be placed in the records of this honourable House. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. MR. HICKEY: It was made - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ]:IR. ROBER'rS: To a point of order.

This matter I believe has been adjudicated in Ottawa, but I do not know whether or not it has ever been raised in this House. A minister who makes a statement outside the House is risking the possibility that he may be found in breach of the privileges of the House, because it is a minister's duty Sir, especially when the House is sitting, to make statements first to that House. The Minister of Tourism has chosen to make a statement outside the House. I do not criticize him for that.

But, Sir, if he is to make the statement outside the House, and it was not a chance one, it was all very nicely arranged, then I do not think, Sir, that it is a proper subject for a m:l.nisterial statement within the House, Surely, Sir, that is a breach of the privileges of the House and that, Sir, is my point of order • . ~. 4193

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1422 Page l - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. HON. J. C. CROSBIE (Minister of Fisheries) : Mr. Speaker, on that point of order. There is absolutely no rule whatsoever that circumscribes a ministerial statement. If the minister has a statement to make, whether anything has been said about the subject outside the House or not is quite irrelevant to the ministerial statement, and there is no authority cited by my learned friend, the Leader of the Opposition and I, therefore, suggest,Your Honour, that the minister should be allowed to continue with his statement. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair is not aware of any procedural points that prevents a member from making statements once a statement is made outside the House from making a ministerial statement in the House. It may be a matter of opinion between the Hon. Leader of the Opposition and the honourable member as to a matter of courtesy or something like that but the Chair does not feel that it is a procedural point. The Hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I may say as a point of clarification before I start with my statement,the fact that it ,was made outside the House,Your Honour,is not necessarily my decision but one which was made jointly by the federal government and the provincial government. It was the desire especially of the federal government that it be made in the manner in which it was made this morning.

My only purpose in rising to make it today or to repeat it at this particular time was for the benefit of honourable members but especially because of the significance it has for the Province, and I think it is fitting that it should be recorded in the records of this honourable House. Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of personal pride that in conjunction with the Hon. Allan MacEachen, Secretrary of State for External Affairs, Government of Canada, I announce the planned world voyage of the Newfoundland banking schooner, the Norma and Gladys. .• 4194

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1422 Page 2 - 111W I take further pride in announcing that the Nonna and Gladys, at the invitation of the federal government, would be Canada's feature exhibit during Canada Week at the International Ocean Exposition Expo 1975 in Okinawa, Japan later this year. The Norma and Gladys will department from St. John's in mid-August, the exact date has yet to be decided. Her tentative

schedule for her world voyage will be as follows: the Straits of Canso, Boston, New York, Panama Canal, San Francisco, Honol ulu, Yokohama, Okinawa, Singapore, Aden, Suez Canal, Greece, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Great Britain and back to St. John's. For several years, Mr. Speaker, my department has been searching for a suitable vessel which would stand as a permanent reminder of our heritage and a way of life which has evolved around Newfoundland's fisheries over the last four hundred years.

In late 1972 it was learned that Captain Charles Kean, due to his retirement, was reluctantly offering the Norma and Gladys for sale.

The Historic Resources Division of my department immediately entered into negotiations with the National Museums Secretariat of the Department of the Secretary of State regarding means of acquisition of the vessel, The outcome of the negotiations was a grant from the National Musewus Secretariat to purchase the vessel and an agr~ement that the federal and provincial governments would share the cost involved in restoration of the schooner to its original condition and profile to be used as a floating museum. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that the cost-sharing of the restoration was indeed a very generous one.

Under the supervision of the Historic Resources Division restoration of the schooner was undertaken at the Clarenville Shipyard by some of the few remaining craftsmen familiar with this type of vessel. All of the exterior work returning her to her original design, as a Grand Bank schooner, has been completed and she was re-collDllissioned on November 23, 1974. On completion of the modifications to her lower 4195

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1422 Page 3 - mw decks, including the museum exhibit area, and installation of the exhibits, she will be ready to go into service in her new role as a floating museum and as an embassador of the Newfoundland fisheries. Prior to 4196

April 15, 1975 Tape 1423 (Afternoon) PK - 1 the schooner's departure on her historic world voyage she will make a provincial tour. This tour is now in the planning stage and the itinerary will be announced within the next few weeks. The itinerary for the provincial tour will be depend· on such factors as the training period for her crew, and, of course, ice conditions on the coast which will govern the date she will leave the shipyards at Clarenville. The signifiance of this endeavour has many facets.

In the first place the schooner is an important historical on such factors as thP Newfoundland and to Canada generally. It is the last of its kind in seaworthy condition. It has earned its place in Newfoundland's history by contributing to the development of the economy of our Province in the prosecution of the fishery and as a cargo carrier to remote col!Dilunittes around our coastline.

In its new role as a floating museum it will be carrying exhibits which depict aspects of the Newfoundland fishery and will be a living reminder of the importance,past, present, and future of the fishing industry to our Province and Canada.

The federal and provivcial governments share the view that the vessel, its background, history and exhibits all present tremendous opportunities to promote the future development of the Tourist Industries of Newfoundland and Canada. ny staff and I intend to see that maximum use is made of the voyage in relation to its ports of call by way of promoting this Province, its unique way of life, its beautiful scenery, the warmth and hospitality of its people, and the signifiance of its culture and historical past.

The Norma and Gladys is a tangible symbol of Canada's concern for the protection of the fishing industry and is therefore directly relevant to the position taken by Canada at the recent Law of the Sea Conference. The need for established limits, resource controls, and rreservation of the quality of the ocean has long been recognized hy both levels of government to prevent further depletion of the fish stocks by foreign fishing fleets, and the adverse affects to our own fishery,particularly the inshore fishery. This facet of the project is obviously of extreme interest to the government and the people of the 4197

April 15, 1975 Tape 1423 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Province who depend, and will continue to do so in the future,on the fishing industry a key component of the Newfoundland economy. I am pleased that my Historic Resources Division initiated the Norma and Gladys project, and that they have been so enthusiastically involved in this venture. We in the provincial government are , gratified because of the significa,nce of this endeavour in terms of our historic past, and the recognition it gives to our heritage and culture.

It is important,too 1that the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of Newfoundlanders will have the opportunity to see at first-hand this living monument to a way of life which is fast disappeaTing. We in Canada's youngest Province should feel proud to have been singled out and given this opportunity to represent our country by displaying our extensive knowledge and experience of the fishery gained from over 400 years of involvement. In closing I take this opportunity to offer my personal thanks, and those of my colleagues in the provincial government, especially my predecessor, the Hon. T.M.

Doyle who in his wisdom approved a recollDllendation of his staff to acquire this vessel, to the staff of the National Museum Secretariat, u-ur thanks also go to the Minister 'llnd staff of the Federal Department of External Affairs. Last, Mr. Speaker, but by no means least 1 would like to thank those members of my staff who were involved in any way with this venture. A very special thanks is due to the members of the Historic Resources Division of my department, with special mention for its Director, Mr. Martin L. Bowe without whom this venture would not have taken place.

It is because of his concern for the preservation of Newfoundland's heritage and culture that this project was initiated. The potential value of this schooner and its historic voyage will be felt by Canadians and especially the people of this Province for many years to come. My department will be issuing further releases as details are finalized for both the provincial and local voyages. We will also be advising the media and the people of this Province on a continuing basis regarding the vessel's progress and her ports of call . Mr.

Speaker, I think this is a very significant moment for this Province and its people, especially in relation to the fishery, and also 4198

April 15, 197S Tape 1423 (Afternoon) PK - 3 in relation to the tourist industry as well. I think that it is an oppon:unity that we could not have missed, we should not have ·misse _d . Our involvement financially is negligible almost when you reali~e the fan tastic amount that is involv .ed by the federal government. l t is my pleasure to make this announcement today and I know that we will gain much publicity and surely increa se the tourist industry in this Province. 4199

April 15, 1975. Tape 1424 RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, after this earth-shattering announcement in the ministerial statement given by the Minister of Tourism, Sir, I am completely limp. I am completely limp. I can hardly, I am so overcome I can hardly express my feelings about this matter, Sir. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that the struggling taxpayers of this Province who cannot cope with the cost of living will welcome this announcement by the minister today.

All those people who are faced with increases in gasoline ~nd oil will welcome this announcement made by the minister today, Sir, throughout the Province. There will be dancing in the streets tonight in the various communities where fishermen cannot get out to do a little fishing this year. They will be delighted with this announcement, Sir, and our people who are worried sick about the Pro­ vincial debt, they will welcome this announcement made by the minister today. Sir, there were a few things that the minister did not make clear in his ministerial statement.

The minister did not tell us about the Cabot Group 4 Limited that put together a brochure and a package and put together the minister's press conference that he held today. How much did that cost the taxpayers of Newfoundland? Who is this Cabot Group? Are they under contract with the minister's department and if so, were public tenders called? What about the cost of the brochure that will accompany the Norma and Gladys on her cruise around the world? Were public tenders - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR.

NEARY: Were public tenders called for the putting together and the printing of this brochure and what other little gimmicks, Sir, like compliments of the honourable T.V. Hickey, Minister of Tourism, Newfoundland, will the Norma and Gladys be carrying a load of this sort of gimmicks and propaganda? If so, the minister did not tell us how much these little things are going to cost. 4200

April 15, 1975. Tape 1424 RH - 2 Now, Sir, from the minister's statement, it would appear to me that he completely misunderstands the nature of his job. This minister, Sir, is responsible for attracting tourists into Newfoundland, not encouraging tourists to travel all over the world,especially to Japan. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please!

The honourable Member for Bell Island speaking to the ministerial statement presented by the Minister of Tourism, the Chair feels, has strSj'ed somewhat from the rule of relevancy with regards to the statement itself and has almost reached the realm of debate. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously, Sir, this is merely a grand- stand gesture on the part of the minister to announcing this world tour of the banker that really has no significance except in Newfound­ land, Sir.

The people in Japan, our biggest competitor as a matter of fact for the fish markets in the United States, one of our biggest competitors is Japan and we are sending this banker to Japan to try to drum up a little business. Hr. Speaker, I am amazed, Sir, I am amazed that the honourable the Premier of this Province would pennit one of his ministers, Sir, to get away with such a ridiculous waste of public money, especially, Sir, at a time when the taxpayers of this Province are struggling to keep body and soul together and are worried sick about the provincial debt that has - mt. CROSBIE: Hr.

Speaker, to a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: This is a complete violation of the rules that govern ministerial statements and the right of honourable gentlemen opposite to say a few words, comment upon them or to ask them questions in con­ nection with it. These conunents are far more apt for a budget speech or some general debate. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I submit that the honourahle gentleman from Bell Island is entirely in order, Sir. Ile is makinp: a few comments. He is asking a - AN HONOUR.ABLE }1EMBER: Inaudible. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! 4201

April 15, 197 5. Tape 1424 Rl! - 3 MR •. ROBERTS: He is asking a few questions. He may be doing it in a lllatlner·which annoys the Rouse Leader and for that I am deeply apologetic and· grieve grievously indeed. Bu.t the fact remains I submit the gentle­ man. is in order and he should be allowed to draw his brief remarks to a conclusion, his comments upon quite a lengthy statement which the minister made, a statement which he had already made outside the House. MR. :EUCKEY: I think I should not wait any longer to raise this point.

The honol).rable gentleman from Bell Island in his usual callous manner has drawn some personal observations into this project which I take strong acception to and I would like to answer them right now. It is typical of his intellectual bankruptcy which he has displayed for so many years. Ma. ROBER.TS: on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 4202

April 15, 1975 Mr. Hickey. Tape no. 1425 The point of principle, Mr. Speaker, is simply this - SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Page 1 - mw MR. HICKEY: - he referred to my use of funds, of departmental funds, of waste of funds. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The Hon. Minister of Tourism rose to a point of ·privilege which takes precedence over a point of order. The Chair is trying to determine the point of privilege being raised by the minister. When the Chair has the opportunity to hear it, it will rule on it then. MR.

HICKEY: He also raises the question of a company, Mr. Speaker, which has all sorts of connotations. If the honourable gentleman wishes to provide - MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Point of order. Please let me finish. If the honourable gentleman - Order, please! - wishes me to provide any or all details with regards to what that company has done for the department that I am responsible for, I would be more than willing to hold a full-scale debate on it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HICKEY: Well why do you not be man enough to get up and take back your inflamatory remarks? MR. ROBERTS: MR.

SPEAKER: (Inaudible). Order, please: There was a point of order raised and subsequently the Minister of Tourism rose on a point of privilege which the Chair feels perhaps was a difference of opinion between two honourable members. The point of order raised by the Hon. Minister of Fisheries with regard to the Hon. Member for Bell Island entering into the realm of debate on a ministerial statement,the Chair had already cautioned 4203

AprH 15, 1975 Tape no. 1425 Page 2 - mw the Hon. Member for Bell Island that the Chair felt he was entering into the realm of debate and certainly feels that he probably was, but shall permit him to continue. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not make it clear, Sir, in his ministerial statement although he did state, I think, in the statement that the government of Canada shared the feelings of the minister but the minister did not make it clear whether the Government of Canada shared the financial costs of sending thil - MB.. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

No, the minister - (Inaudible). I beg your pardon? (Inaudible). Yes. MR. NEARY: I would like to see yes Sir. That is what I am asking the minister. He did not make it clear to me - I do not know if he did to the other members of the House - whether or not SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. SEIAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - the cost of sending this little schooner around the world was shared jointly by the provincial government and the government of Canada.

Niither did the minister make it clear, Sir, how many people were going to accompany the Norma and Gladys from this Province on her trip to Honolulu on her way around the worldT How many ministers? How many deputy ministers would be going! Would the minister himself be going? How long would he be out of the Province? Would he be out of the Province in the height of the tourist season? MR. ROBERTS: Will he be coming back? MR. NEARY: No, not will he be coming back.

Will the minister be out of the Province during the height of the tourist sea.son at a time when our record over the last few years shows that it is virtually impossible to get people - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker - .MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 4204

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1425 Page 3 - mw MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this has gone far beyond the bounds of anything that is permitted. I refer to Beauchesne, page eighty-four, "When a minister makes a statement on government policy or ministerial administration, it is now firmly established that the Leader of the u Opposition or the Chiefs of recognized groups - now the Hon. Member for Bell Island is not the Leader of the Opposition, although that might surprise some people.

He certainly acts as though he is - "the Leader of the Opposition or the Chiefs of recognized groups are entitled to ask explanations and make a few remarks, but no debate is then " allowed. Now this is becoming a full-fledged debate and the Hon. Member for Bell Island is not the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I was asking a few questions. MR. CROSBIE: This is not the right time to ask them. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: For the third time the Chair is to remind the Leader, I am sorry, not the Leader of the Opposition but the Hon. Member for Bell Island that the Chair feels that he is getting into the realm of debate and perhaps indeed was into a debate on the whole thing and if he persists in continuing this way the Chair will have to recognize another member. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I will wind up my few remarks by merely saying, Sir, that in my opinion and in the opinion of the Opposition, my colleagues, that this is nothing but a barefaced . rip-off of the taxpayers of this Province without any hope of recouping any of the money that is being spent or making a profit on the deal. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear: Hear: 4205

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1425 Page 4 - mw MR.· SPEAKER.: Th¢ Hon, Minis .ter of Touriam. i:nt. HICKEY: What does the honourable gentleman refer to as a cQllll>lete rip-off? What kind of a connotation is attached t() that? MR. ROBERTS: (Ina•dible), MR. lttCXEY: Do.ea he want to explain? Or does he sit there in silence -? MR. !{EARY: Tell us wfu,, Cabinet - MR. SPEAKER.: Order, please! MR. NEilY: (Inaudible) • . MR. S-PEAKER.: Order, please! This whole matter h.as wandered far enough, and · I recogniz .e another hOJ)ourable minister # he has a m.i.¢ste:t14U statement. If not 1 presenting petitions, 4206

April 15, 1975 t-lR. SPEAKER: ~IP. AYLWARD: Tape 1426 (afternoon) PRESENTING PETITIONS: The honourable Memher for Placentia East. Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on hehalf of the residents of Fair Haven. The prayer of the petition is to have the road connecting the Community of Fair Haven to the Trans-Canada paved. The present condition of the road is deplorable, ~Ir. Speaker. As all memhers of the House already know during the recent severe storms during the winter, Fair Haven,like Branch, was one of the communities that was really tsolated for a period of in IB-1 excess of one week.

This is a very short piece of road. It is important to the numher of workers who live in the community and who are obliged to travel from, say, Fair Haven to Long Harhour or Come-By-Chance and also, of course, they have to leave Fair Haven to go to nursing stations and hospitals. It is extremely important that this road be upgraded and pavecl.

The concern of the c1 tizens of the co111111uni ty is understandable, and they are very, very annoyed and disturbed with the condition of the road, and they tell us that if they do not have this road upgraded and paved, they will not even accept a ballot hox in their connnunity the next time. This is one way,I take it, t-lr. Speaker, that they want to drive home to all concerned the condition of the road in that community. This petition is signed by about 100 residents of the community and I am sure has the complete endorsation of every one who has ever had occasion to travel on that particular piece of road.

So, I sincerely trust that the Minister of Transportant and Communications will within the near future find time to meet with a delegation from Fair Haven and give them some assurance as to when this road will he upgraded and paved. I ask that this petition he tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. A~l nmm1m.A1JLE MRMRER: Fow many people? MR. AYLWARD: Pow many people are in the community? AN HONOURARLE MF:~ER: J1ow many people signed the pet:! tion1 MR. AYLWAJlD: Oh, ahout 100. If you care to count them, you can certainly 420"7

April 15, 1975 Tape 1426 (afternoon) have the petition. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. AYLWARD: In excess of 100, yes. MR.. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we on this ~ide of the House support the prayer of the petition from the honourable Member for Placentia East. We too feel, Sir, that the road from Fair Haven to the Trans-Canada Highway should be upgraded and paved. We sympathize with the res:f.dents of Fair Haven where the member said that they are very annoyed at the condition of the road. No doubt the member is concerned.

We feel TR-'.J that the Minister of Transportation and Communications in bis wisdom when he presents his estimates before the House, we would like to think in terms of him having some funds in his estimates and some allotment for the paving and upgrading of the road from Fair Haven to the Trans-Canada Highway. I would also like to say, if I may be permitted, Mr. Speaker, today we have in the lobby of the House a fine display of handicrafts from Labrador. I would like for all the members of the House - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

WOODWARD: - to take the opportunity to view that and to contribute to Labrador handicrafts. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable Member from Labrador North perhaps feels that he will be ruled out of order in continuing to take the opportunity in speaking to the prayer of the petition to expound on the topic which he just did. The honourable Minister of Transportation and Cormunications. HON. J. ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS): I thought the Labrador handicrafts thing was right good too,actually. The pri ~es are pretty good too I understand, very good prices.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I would like to assure the honourable 4208

April 15, }q75 Tape 1426 (afternoon) memhPr that any time that the delegation wishes to come in, certainly we will slt down and we will talk to them and see what can be done. There is only a limited amount of funds. We cannot do everything in the Province we would like to do, but we are certainly willing to sit down and try and work out something to assist th~ people and to keep their roads in as good a position as any. So, any time the member would like to arrange for the meeting I can assure him that we are prepared to meet with the delegation. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions?

The honourable Member for St. John's North. MR. r:ARTER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on hehalf of some eighty-five residents of the Tolt Road in the nistrict of St. John's North, and the prayer of the petition reads: To the honourahle the House of Assembly, we the undersigned residents of the electoral distr:1.ct of St.

John's North; that your petitioners who livP on the Tolt Road which runs from the Thorburn Road to the Old r.road r.ove Road; that thirty-five familes live along the Tolt Road with many new homes being built each year; that the number of vehicles making use of this road is increasing rapidly;and that the amount of traffjc is increasing even more rapidly. The Tolt Road is not paved and it is the only major residential road in the innnediate area of St.

Philips aod Portugal Cove that is not paved; and that this causes grave inconvenience and even hardship to our petitioners; that the government have announced they intend to spend more than $100 million on roads this year; therefore, your petitioners request that the government cause this Tolt Road to be paved during this coming construction season in the Summer of 1975; and your petitioners,as in duty hounrl~will ever he grateful. The petitioners are the heads of the families who live along IB-3 that road.

T would guess that all the heads of all the families have signec1 '11•cause I notice even the honourable f~inister of Fisheries' signature is on this petition. Therefore, I commend it,and certainly believe that tli1s won I cl help in cnmmen<ling it to the - I would like to make the point at this time though, that al thoup;h two honourable members of this House live practically 4209

April 15, 1975. Tape 1427 RH - 1 on or near the Tait Road, trat they have had no conversation or influence, no influence has been brought to bear upon me to present this petition. I do so firmly believing in the justice of the petition itself and I would like to point out while I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker , that although the western part of the Tote Road is a fairly developed highway, the eastern end is practically only a cart track and therefore deserves immediate upgrading, if not paving.

At the same time, I certainly agree with the petitioners who suggest that there is a great deal of tourist traffic, especially in the sU11D11ertime when the road is dusty and this causes a great deal of inconvenience for people who live along the road. This particular area in St. John's North is becoming more and more residential and the area is certainly permitted for residential. It is in no way restricted by the agricultural land policy that the Minister of Agriculture announced some months ago.

Therefore, it is an area that I expect to be built up very soon and would be a very pleasant, a very worthwhile area to live in. I recommend all possible effort on the part of the government to upgrade 1 and not only to upgrade, but to pave as well. I would appreciate as much attention as possible on this road. I realize that because it is not a main highway that it may have escaped the attention of the depart­ ment, but I am, as a member should, I bring now to the attention of the government publicly and recommend that this road be upgraded and paved this coming year. Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: I certainly want to support this petition since I signed it and to point out that the Tote Road is a very, very important road. It connects the Thorburn Road to the Old Broad Cove Road and that along that ·road live a great many liviers, in addition to ·some people who live there just for the summer. It is a road that is now being built up on its eastern end. It is now becoming extensively built up by people who live there all year round. This time of the year it is a sea of mud. It is a little on the muddy side.

In the sU11D11ertime it is a bit on the dusty side. It is a road that is in the metropolitan area of St . John's and needs attention. Now, if the Minister of Transportation 4210

April 15, 1975. Tape 1427 RH - 2 and Communications has got any humanity in him at all or any feeling of consideration for the people who live along the Tote Road, I know that lie will reconstruct and pave the Tote Road this year as a work of urgent necessity. If we - /\~"!_ JlONOURA!lLF. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: I can only say this. On behalf of the people who live on the Tote Road, Mr. Speaker, if it is not paved this year, we will he thinking very carefully how we are going to vote in the next election. J!R. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. IIR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, may I say a word or two in support of this and in so doing I hasten to assure the House that I do not have the naked, unrevealed , hidden self-interest of the honourable the Member for St. John's I/est who, as he often will admit when pressed , lives along the Tote Road. He is not a livier > he is rather a floater, floats in and floats out, sometimes across the water, sometimes not. But Sir, this petition deserves the support of every honourable member in this House. I want to congratulate the !!ember for St. John's North on the exquisitely able wording of the petition.

I think it is one of the few petitions that has ever been brou ght before the House this session that was worded in the correct form and I want to than k the gentleman from St. John's North for the consideration he has shown the House. Now, Sir, with reference to the supporting remarks made by the !-!inister of Fisheries, I appreciate his concern and I do hope his colleague in thP transportation portfolio shows a little common humanity, a little heart for the people who live along the Tote Road, in add~tion to those who fl oat in and out with the good weather and go out with the bad weather.

"'Y one re11:ard about 4211

April 15, 1975 Tape No. 1428 NM - 1 that is that while the honourable the Minister of Fisheries briefly held the Finance portfolio for a year or so, he did not use his influence there to get this important artery paved. Sir, the Tolt Road is one of the few roads left in the Metropolitan St. John's Area that is not paved. Bennetts Road was done last year. The Old Broad Cove Road is done. The Dog­ berry Hill Road is not done as yet. I was over it the other day, it is just about impassible. The Tolt Road has been closed to traffic the last few days because of the Spring breakup.

There are a substantial number of people living along that road. And while there are many places in Newfoundland that need pavement and while th@re are many places which I hope will get pavement, I think that the case of the people along the Tolt Road is a good one and I would hope the Minister of Transporation and Communications will find it in his heart this year to spring the few hundred thousand dollars that are necessary, whatever that may be, to pave that road and thus to enable the Minister of Fisheries to get in and out in comfort and in ease.

And if while he is doing it if the Minister of Transporation has a few hundred ounces of asphalt left, there is a road which he has finally recognized, put a big sign on it called The Hogan's Pond Road, and there are eight or ten families living up there on a livier basis, not a floater or a stationer basis, and they too would be grateful.

I will not make any rash predictions about how they will vote, Sir, that is up to them, but I can assure the minister that they will certainly be grateful to him and give him every consideration and when he becomes on the employment market again, wheuever that is, we would certainly be willing to consider asking him to go to work on the Hogan's Pond Road for those of us who live there. But I think the Tolt Road, Sir, have a good case. I hope the road will be paved this year. The people there are expecting it.

They were assured two or three years ago the road would be paved immediately the Old Broad Cove Road has been done. The Old Broad Cove Road and Bennetts Road are now finished but the Tolt's Road turn, you know,the time has come • MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. 4212

April 15, 1975 Tape No. 1428 NM - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: As I recall, Mr. Speaker, last year this road was a topic of great discussion and certainly we will consider the petition.

Of course excepting the two honourable members of this House, I think that the people out in the area probably - but I am sure that the honourable the Minister of Fisheries and the honourable the Leader of the Opposition, walking over the water as they do, have no need of paved.road - but I am sure there are other people over there who do and we certainly will give every sympathetic consideration to the petition and if funds are available we will see what we can do. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, Sir, I wonder if the minister could inform the House whether he has received a request from the representatives of the St. Lawrence Miner~ Protective Union in connection with their current negotiations with Alcan in St. Lawrence? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I am not entirely sure of what the honourable gentleman is asking. If he is talking about a request for conciliation services?

Yes we did some time ago and as a matter of fact we have bad a conciliation officer in the area for some weeks now. I do not know what other requests could be referred to. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, maybe I could enlighten the honourable gentleman, ls the honourable minister aware that Mr. Curtis, the international representative of the union, has made a public statement that he has asked the minister personally to become involved in discussions to try to avert a strike that may take place in the next twenty-four or forty-eight hours in St. Lawrence1 MR. MAYNARD: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of any statements made by Mr. Curtis. He did call me this morning and he asked for a meeting with me which I have arranged, or as far as I know my Deputy 4213

April 15, 1975 Tape No. 1428 NM - 3 Minister has arranged for tomorrow. But he bas not indicated as to what specifically he wanted to talk about at the meeting, but cei:tainly I am willing to meet with bim and the executive of his union at any time. MR. MllRPHY: It might be a fishing trip or something. MR. NEARY: That is precisely the question I put to the minister in the first place, Sir . MR. MAYNARD: No, you did not.

MR, NEARY: Sir, I wouder if the honourable the Premier could tell the House whether be bas re·ceived a -request from the City of Corner Brook for the honourable the Premier to meet with representatives of the City Council in eorn er Brook to discuss this matter of truces in lieu of a grant from Bowaters to the City of Corner Brook. MR. SPEAKER: The honourabl ·e the Premier. 4214

Ap r H l 'i , 197 'i Tape 1429 (afternoon) IB-1 'IR. MOORES: The answer 'Is yes, •Ir. Speaker, and I will be meeting with the City of Corner Brook when they come to St. John's as I usually do when they come in. Flopefully, it will be in the next week or so. Ml/. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honourable the Premier would tf'll the House what action his government has taken or he himself has taken to set up a separate branch of consumer affaris, one of the recommendations outlined in the Food Prices Review Board, November, 1974? MR. MOORES: llasically, Mr.

Speaker, very 1i ttle has been done in actually establishing the branch. I think it is important that the government does take a hard look at what can be done in this regard. I know that the Opposition and others I suppose would say that time is of the essence as far as comsumer affairs interests are concerned in this Province. It is something that the goverment is very aware of, and are working towards as quickly as possible. ~rn. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the Premier's answer, Sir, and I wish to discuss that matter tomorrow afternoon,or Thursday afternoon,at the lat.e show.

Sir, I wonder if the 1-'inister of Provincial Affairs can inform the House if he has received a request from the Community of Burgeo on the South Coast to have his department, the branch of consumer affairs of his rlepartment, investigate food prices in that community of Burgeo? MR. DAWE: Yes. ~- NEAP.Y: Yes! Well. what has the minister done about it? Has the minister taken any action apart from pawning it off on Ottawa? Ts the minister's own officials going to go down to Burgeo to look into this matter? Mil. DAWE: We are considering it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the arrogance.

Will the minister stand up and answer thP questions? SO E HONflURABLF. MEMRERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Sir, a supplementary to the minister. Would the minister tell the House what action he has taken on a request from the people of Burgeo to havf' food prices investigated in that community, and if the 4215

April 15, 1975 Tape 1429 (afternoon) IB-2 officials of the minister's department will be sent to Burgeo to investigate, make an on the spot investigation into this matter of the high cost of living in Burgeof MR. E~ANS: Do not be so pushy, boy. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DAWE: ~r. Speaker, we are as much concerned about the people in Burgeo as we are about the people in St. Anthony and the people in this Province in general. But, if I were to go around making announcements before we make investigations, what do you think would happen?

It would be purposeless for me to send anybody anywhere in this Province to make an investigation if prior to doing so I am going to annouce the fact that they are going to be there investigating. It is just not done. It only serves to defeat the purpose. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Is the minister aware that he is being quoted widely on radio today as having stated that he has asked Beryl Plumptre, the Chairman of the Food Prices Feview Co111111ittee to go to Burgeo to investigate this matter? Is the minister aware of that? Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Would the miniater care to tell the House whether or not his department has yet taken a decision on a water and a badly needed water system for the co111111unity of Rose Blanche? HON. B. PECKFORD (MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr. Speaker, about three weeks ago a number of people, councillors and a clergyman from Rose Blanche called my office requesting a meeting to discuss the business of a water and sewer system for Rose Blanche. We agreed on a time and a date, and they indicated to me that they would wire Mr.

Jamieson's office in Ottawa and have a representative of his office present for the meeting. The meeting transpired last week. There was nobody present from Mr. Jamieson's office in Ottawa. I understand that a number of his representatives were in the Port Awe Basques area that same day that we had the meeting in here. The day before that meeting we received conununication by way of a phone call from Ottawa, from Mr. Jamieson's office indicating 4216

April 15, 1975 Tape 1629 (afternoon) IB-3 that they had a pr"posal ready on the water and sewer system and that they would he presentin g that pr"pos11l for the Department of Municipal Affairs the next week. Th i s is Tuesday, is it, of the next week and we have not recejved to my knowledge yet the proposal mentioned in that phon e call .

I indicated to the people, the delegation that were in to see me, tha t i t <tas a little premature for them to come to see me because we clt.d not have any representation from Ottawa, and fur t hermore, because we were awaitt.ny the proposals referred to in that telephone conversation. ~", we are eagerly waiting to receive that proposal from PREE and r.t-111<' so that ~e can get on with the j ob in Rose 1Hanche. _i,q,., NEARY: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker.

Woul d the minister care to indicate to the House how far the Provincial Government, the Department ('If ~unic1pal Affairs, how far they are prepared to go financially to help on this project'? Will the minister make any commitment to the p.eople of Rose Rlanche? 4217

April 15, 1975. MR, PECKFORD: Tape 1430 RH - 1 Mr. Speaker, a couple of years ago DREE indicated that they were going to pay 100 per cent of the cost of the system. Now it seems that they have a different proposal. I suspect that the proposal involve3 provin­ cial money. I am not goin g to indicate to the delegation or to anybody in Rose Blanche or to the honourable member just exactly what percentage of a commitment the Department of Municipal Affairs will make until I see the proposal. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications or the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Would either minister care to tell the House whether or not the long overdue agreement on the Harbour Arterial Road has yet been signed between the Province and the Govermnent of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the agreement is not yet signed, but honourable gentlemen need not fear. It will be signed in due course and when it is there will be the usual announcement. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary: Is the minister aware that we were given the same answer five or six weeks ago that the agreement would be signed momentarily? Could the minister indicate now, be a little more specific, and indicate what date or what period he is talking about? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I wish the honourable gentleman would - he should get this answer from the honourable Donald Jamieson. The agreement is all ready to be signed as far as the Provincial Government is concerned. The agreement has been- , it is all agreed upon in principle.

We are waiting for the Federal Government to tell us when they are ready to sign. The agreement has been agreed to by the honourable Mr. Jamieson. Presumably it has to go through the Federal Treasury Board and the usual processes up there and this is taking some time. So, any delay is not caused by the Provincial Government. It is caused by the normal processes of government at Ottawa and we are not making any fuss about it because we do nqt intend to be critical of Nr. Jamieson or the Government of Canada unless we have good cause to be. So, as soon as we hear from the Federal 4218

April 15, 1975. Tape 1430 RH - 2 Government they are ready to sign, our pens will be ready. With one stroke of the pen we can be ready to sign. It is agreed to by our government here and it is going through the usual processes at Ottawa. So, the honourable gentleman need not be concerned, but if he has any special concern he can call Mr. Jamieson and ask him how it is coming along. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary: Would the minister then care to tell the House whether all the matters in connection with the Harbour Arterial Road are at a standstill at the moment or is the purchasing and expropriation of property along the Harbour Arterial Road route still going ahead? Are properties still being purchased, and if so, who is paying the bill? MR. CROSBIE: ---- Mr. Chainnan, there has never been any standstill insofar as that aspect of the matter is concerned.

The Department of Transportation and Communications_of this government has been acquiring properties along that route for the last year or two years. That process is still continuing. The Province is responsible, as I understand it, for acquiring the land and the right of ways and the federal cont:rihution iR 1n connection wit:h com,t:ruction of the facilities. So that has been proceeding just as it was, presUtuably, in the days when the honourable gentleman was in the government before 1971. '·lR • NEARY : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir.

In view of the traffic deaths on our highways,and ue understand that the toll is worsening, would the minister care to indicate just what action his department is taking on this matter? Has the advisory board that was set up recently by the minister started work yet,and if so, when will they be reporting to the minister on this matter of hi~hway safety and deaths on our highway? MR • SPEAY.ER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. Yes, the advisory board has been set up. It has not yet held its first meeting.

I had a meeting with the Safety Council last week and I mentioned to them that government had indeed run ahead with the formation of this board. We would hope that, of course, they would have 4219

April 15, 1975. Tape 1430 RH - 3 many subjects in respect to highway safety to look at and bring to the attention of the government. It is a m.de ranging board and I will be making a formal announcement on it in the next few days . I would assume that the first meeting will be held insofar as the board is concerne d as soon as possible, as soon as the board can get together and I would not anticipate that would be a long peri od of time. MR • :'IBA..llY : I have a question fo r the Minister of Finance, Sir .

Would the Minister of Finance care to tell the House if it is possible to avert a strike amongst the 200 liquor store employees in this Provin ce? What action is the minister taking on that? Is the minister dealin a with it at the moment? Will there be a strike? If so, will 11e be cut off completely or 11111 there be alternative arrangements made to get a drop of stuff? AN HONOURABLE n:MBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 4220

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1431 Page 1 - mw MR, SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, the last advice I had was that negotiations are still continuing, There is no breakdown. I have not been notified of any breakdown.Until such time as there is a breakdown, of course, we will take no action. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Is the minister aware that all the members of that branch of NAPE have received a letter stating that the last offer from the Treasury Board was final, that negotiations have stopped and that a strike ballot is being taken? Is the minister aware of that?

If so, would he care to conment on that? MR. EARLE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am aware that a strike ballot has been taken. As I stated in my previous statement, there has been no action further than that. The fact that a strike ballot has been taken does not necessarily mean that a strike will take place, Neogtiations are still going on. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order 23, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, under the provisions of Standing Order 23, I ask leave of the House to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent, public importance, namely, the failure of this government to take appropriate action and implement measures to deal with the alarming geometric increases in vandalism and serious crime in this Province over the past three years.

In view of the obvious fact that the government, Sir, especially the Minister of Justice, is no longer capable of dealing with this major problem the House as a whole is forced to come to grips with this most unfortunate situation innnediately. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, as Your Honour well knows the question is whether this is a matter not only of urgent, public importance hut of great urgency. In view of the fact that the estimates of the Department of Justic.e were only discussed a few days ago 4221

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1431 Page 2 - mw when this very matter was raised then and dealt w:1.th,and in view of the fact that other occasions that arise during this session and the Budget Speech and the Address in Reply when the same topics can be discussed again 1 and due to the fact that there is no great emergency in respect to vandalism at the present time, for all of these reasons,and there must be at least several hundred other such reasons, I would request Your Honour to rule that the matter is not (?ne to be dealt with now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

As honourable members have stated, of course, it is not whether the matter is important and people are interested in it but whether it is important or not to warrant an i111111ediate debate and whether the debate is the urgent thing. The Chair does not feel that debate is the urgent matter at the present moment and thus does not accept this motion. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the Hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Respecting Adult Corrections," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon.

Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Remove Legal Restrictions On The Assignment By Her Majesty Of Certain Rights To The NewfouJidlmd and Labrador Hydro Electric Corporation," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 4222

April 15, 1Cl75. Tape 1432 RH - 1 MR. CllAIRHAN: Page 116, Head 1901-01, Municipal Affairs and Housing. The Member for St. Barbe North. !IR. F. ROHE: Mr. Chairman, my colleague and myself were not going to have much more to say about this general heading under salaries for the minister's office because we felt it very important that we get along to debate the estimates of the Department of Mines and Energy. We said that however important Municipal Affairs and Housing is, that it is important that we get along to discuss a department which is very im­ portant to the future economic development of this Province.

However, Sir, it was obvious yesterday that certain members on the government side were conducting a filibuster. It is not for that reason, however, that I am speaking to this particular vote for the third time.

The reason that I am speaking to this particular vote for the third time, Sir, is that yesterday,in my preliminary remarks, I mentioned that one of the single greatest indicators of the failure of this present P.C. administration to help and assist and lead in regional and local government and to guide municipalities in such a way that they coul<l cope with their local problems, the greatest single indicator of this government's failure in that respect was the fact that most municipalities have announced increased taxes or have announced that they will increase their taxes. MR. PECKFORD: Incorrect statement. MR.

ROWE: The minister says an incorrect statement, Sir. The incorrect statement is the statement that the minister just made because the minister in answer to one of my questions provided me with the follo wing information, that eight to ten municipalities have had suhstantial increase s or will have substantial increases in their taxes this year. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Now, eight to ten municipalities. We can talk about most ---.-- in many dtfferent ways, Mr. Chairman. We can talk about most or just - 422l

April 15, 1975. Tape 1432 Rll - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Now if I can be - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Okay, now if I am - Am I going to be heard in silence,or what, Mr. Chairman? kn I going to be accorded that courtesy,or what? We can talk about numbers of municipalities in a number of different ways. We can talk about the municipality of Cook's Harbour, which has a very small population,and we can talk about the municipality of St. John's which has one-fifth~al.most,of the population of this Province.

Now, okay, the minister has said that eight to ten municipalities or councils will or are having a substantial increase in their truces. Fifteen to twenty municipalities, fifteen to twenty municipalities will have moderate tax increases. AN HONOURABLE MF.MBER: Out of 286. MR. ROWE: Out of 286, okay. If I can continue my speech, I will yield briefly to the minister to indicate the names of these eight to ten with substantial increases and fifteen to twenty with moderate increases, if the minister wishes to provide the Collllllittee with that information at the present time.

No, I can see why, Because these eight to ten and these fifteen to twenty, Sir, probably represent the greatest and the largest municipalities in this Province. Such places AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: This is why I am asking the minister. This is why. Is it St. John's? Is it Corner Brook? Is it Gander? Is it Grand Falls? Well, is it? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Well, this is exactly what I am saying, Sir, that the municipalities involved in these substantial increases represent, not in all cases,but in some cases, the largest municipalities in this Province.

Now, okay - so, Sir, - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! 4224

April 15, 1975. Tape 1432 RH - 3 '.1R. NEARY: r.o back to Ottawa, boy, and make a fool of yourself. l!R. CHAIRMAN: The honourable gentleman from St. Barbe North - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: If 4225

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1433 Page l - mw the honourable gentlemen are going to treat the Chair with contempt we would prefer that it were silent contempt. The honourable gentleman from St. Barbe North has the floor,and he has the right to be heard in silence and honourable gentlemen to my left seem to be over-anxious to contradict his arguments or to confuse the honourable member. And I suggest that he be heard in silence. AN HON. MEMBER: The honourable member is shell-shocked, He is confused, bewildered, confused. MR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, the Hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing will have ample opportunity to contradict or rebut the poin·ts that I am trying to make, Sir, and I hope that he does so. Now, Sir, I submit that the failure of this government and the department, and my sincerest wishes go to the minister in the hope that he will be able to rectify the problem, but the majority of the people of this Province, Sir, will have to pay higher taxes to their local governments this comimg year. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. F. ROWE: AN HON. MEMBER: _MR. F. ROWE: That is true. Hear! Hear! The majority of the people. Right. We can play around with figures.

I will not say the majority of numbers because you can add up 150 little tiny municipalities or you can add up ten large ~icipalities which cover the majority of the people of this Province. Sir, the minister rebutted my argument on that point yesterday in fine debating style, and I said that, you know, I made my point and the minister made his and any further debate would really be a matter of trying to win debating points,and why pursue it if we are not going to get the answers.

Sir, I would suggest that the situation is much more serious than most people realize and that this government has not only forced or caused municipalities to raise their taxes because of this government's failure to provide revenue or to get revenue because of its own failure in industrial and economic development and, therefore, 4226

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1433 Page 2.a mw the buck is being passed along to the local governments in this Provines.But in fact the Riot Act has been read to the municipalities, the Riot Act has been read to the municipalities. And, Sir, if that is bordering parliamentary language, I am quite willing to provide the documentation to back up what I just said.

Sir, I submit further that this government and the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing has told almost directly, has ordered almost directly - I will say indirectly,but I will say almost directly - has ordered the municipalities and the mayors of this Province to raise their taxes because the government is not going to provide them with adequate funds - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. F. ROWE: AN HON. MEMBER: - to provide adequate services in this Province. That is right. MR. F.

ROWE: And, Sir, I refer, and I quote from a letter dated April 4, 1975 from the minister's office,which the minister was kind enough to provide me with after I requested it yesterday 1 and, Sir, I will read a few relevant paragraphs from that letter. Sir, the first paragraph reads as follows: " In the past many municipal authorities have relied heavily on this department for financial assistance to meet emergency situations and even to assist with ordinary housekeeping expensives.

In fact there has been an increasing tendency in this direction resulting in a notable lessening of local efforts to meet normal, municipal responsibilities. Many councils have not made any significant at!justments in their tax structures for several years and have not taken action to collect revenues. That is a pretty severe indictment of local councils, Sir. ''consequently the financial position of local governments II generally has deteriorated which cannot be allowed to continue.

Now, Sir, the minister goes into some detail on requesting municipalities to raise their imposed rate to not less than $12 per month for water services and so forth and goes into the importance of proper bookkeeping 1which I go along with 100 per cent, 4227

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1433 Page 3 - mw but, Sir, proper bookkeeping with proper guidance from the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing, proper education and guidance from the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. But, Sir, after that in the closing three paragraphs the minister says: "rn

summary, 4228

April 15, 1975, Tape 1434, Page 1 -- apb Afternoon therefore, I wish to impress upon all municipal authorities the absolute importance of insuring that sufficient revenues are raised at the local level to meet the cost of providing a reasonable standard of services.

It is imperative that a thorough assessment of the adequacies of the existing tax structure must be carried out and that adequate allowance be made in the budget for unforeseen expenditures or emergencies." What the government and the minister and the Deoartment of Municipal Affairs and Rousing, Sir, are telling the Mayors of this Prc;ivince is, raise your taxes because we are not prepared to provide you with adequate funds to meet a reasonable standard of services, "Particular attention" - quoting from the letter, Sir - "Particular attention should be given to existing property rates which is the principal source of revenue available to a municipality.

Municipal authorities which have not imposed a real property tax and which have limited revenue should consider the imposition of this tax at the earliest possible date so that this source of revenue will be available during 1976.

I have to repeat,therefore, that municipal authorities should accept r;reater fiscal responsibility in the management of the affairs of local government and should not rely on the provincial government f'.l!"ants to replace tax revenues available from local sources." Sir, I would say that any mayor in this Province can only interpret this letter as saying, jack up your taxes,gentlemen, jack up vour taxes.

And thousands of people in this Province are taking issue with responsible, dedicated mayors and councillors in this Province, many of whom are working without pay, are having to take criticism and sometimes abuse from their citizens in their own communities because this government have passed the buck to all of the Town Councils in this Province to collect revenue for a reasonable service. Sir, I submit that it is the responsibility of this government to provide the revenue for a reasonable service. It is this letter that says a reasonable service~ not beyond a reasonable service)but a reasonable service.

It is the government's 4229

April 15, 1975, Tape 1434, Page 2 -- apb responsibility to see to it that councils are able to provide a reasonable service to the people in their co11llllunities. Sir, the minister, I repeat, has ordered councils, the mayors,to raise their taxes because this government would no longer accept the responsibility. And, Sir, why is this? This is because this government in its three-and-a-half or so years of office have been an abysmal and dismal failure in industrial and economic development and consequently they have not been able to derive revenue, to get the revenue to help our citizens.

And they have done precisely the same, Sir, with Municipal Affairs and Rousing as they have done in Education. They got together in their cabinet room - MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. As an ordinary backbencher, it is pretty hard to take, as the honourable member has been obviously irrelevant. He is talking about the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Municipal Affairs being responsible with respect to the taxes which are assessed by local governments.

He is also talking about getting into the realm now of industrial development, the government's whole process of industrial development. Now as I think I said on hour 15 of those esti.mates, which was the last time I spoke, and it is now about hour 15 nearer zero hour as it was, I am interested as a member of the backbench of hearing all departments of government discussed, inlcluding such departments as the Department of Tourism, the Department of Public Works, the Department of Health and what have you.

And I have to object, Your Honour, as a member of the backbenchs who is interested in hearing all government departments discussed, in hearing the time of this committee being taken up, as far as I am concerned, in complete and absolute irrelevancy on the part of the Opposition. Now I realize the 4230

April 15, 1975. Tape 1435 RH - 1 ~1emher for St. Barbe North probably thinks he is making a point, but he is not really making a point. He is delving and he is dwelling upon irrelevancies and in accordance with article, I think it is, Order 51(a), I would ask Your Honour as Chairman of the Committees to direct the Member for St.

Barbe North that he is in the realm of irrelevancies and ask him to stop talking because after all, it was the Opposition last Friday,and I was somewhat encouraged,which had indicated that it was interested in discussing other departments such as Mines and F.nergy and other areas that I also am interested in hearing discussed. HR. ROHE: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. It is obvious that the only thing the Member for St. John's East is doing is raising an objection to the statements that I have been making.

That is all and with respect to consuming the hours of this Committee, it was yesterday, Sir, that the honourable the Leader of the Opposition stood in his place and said that we will have very little of anything else to say about the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing so that we can get on to other departments. Then honourable members on the other side started off with a filibuster. Four or five members got up to speak and we were accused of not speaking on the subject and the honourable member gets up now and, I mean, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. I submit, Mr.

Chairman, that this is simply a difference of opinion between two different members and not a point of order. ~!R. MARSHALL: Your Honour, if I may for just one quick moment. If the Opposition was really sincere in what it said on Friday in havi~g the estimates of Municipal Affairs and Housing gone through so they could get to something else, the honourable }\ember for St. Barbe North would sit down and keep his seat and let !1unicipal Affairs and Housing go through so that the rest of us could hear,in the limited time available, an examination of the rest of the departments which ought to be examined. HR.

OTTF.NJlEIMER: Mr. Chairman, if I may add a word to this very relevant point of order. I can only see one way out of this impasse and that is that there should be unanimous draft, I know proposed 4231

April 15, 1975. Tape 1435 RR - 2 by honourable gentlemen on the opposite side,and I would think seconded by at least some honourable gentleman on this side, that the honourable Dr. Smallwood be asked back to take over the functions of Leader of the Opposition so that he could instruct us all upon the proper functions and I certainly look forward to Dr. Smallwood,whom I have had the honour of sitting opposite for a few years, I will look forward to seeing him back here as Leader of the Opposition and I would hope, Mr.

Chairman, that you will invite the honourable doctor on behalf of the ~egislature to come back and take up his rightful place in this Legislature. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! Well, honourable gentlemen have consumed about ten minutes on this point of order. I am not sure if the honourable member was being irrelevant when the point of order was raised by the Member for St. John's East. However, I did detect certain phrases entering his speech that had little relevance to Municipal Affairs and Housing, although I think he was striving mightily to make them relevant.

He was attempting to relate the raising of taxes to government's failure to raise money in other fields which may or may not be relevant, but he was attempting to do that. Of course, if that were to be expanded as it could be, he could spend a considerable number of hours on that and I think I would have had to interrupt him had he gone on much further. Now, with reference to the point of order itself, it is basically a disagreement between two honourable members as to what is relevant or irrelevant and the three honourable gentlemen who have spoken on it have made their points.

The point made by the Minister of Education had the least relevance to the point of order. However, it is another indication of how the point of order can be used to score debating points. MR. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: The Chairman just ruled that I was not quite relevant and it was a difference of opinion between two different members. Now, Mr. Chairman, I was about ready to finish my remarks but I am almo·st provoked now to re-emphasize them, but of course, I will not. 4232

April 15, 1975. Tape 1435 RI! - 3 The point that I was making, Sir, is this. The minister has through a four page letter to the mayors of this Province, has virtually ordered the councils to increase their taxes. 4233

April 15, 1975 Tape 1436 (Afternoon) PK - 1 The Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, A. Brian Peckford, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, signature. And, Sir, I was drawing the analogy that the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the minister himself has done exactly the same thing as was done by the Minister of Education when he set up and allowed to continue these school tax authorities.

The buck is being passed from the provincial government to local government or . local authorities in trying to raise revenue for,in the case of the Minister of Education, educational purposes, and in the case of the Minister of Municipal Affairs,for servicing to the various local governments in this Province. Now, Sir, I bring this to the attention of the Committee hecause I think it is the government's responsibility to assist local government to provide what they call a reasonable level of social services. Because, Sir, some local governments do not have the tax bases that Qther local governments had.

You cannot compare the tax base of, for example, Cook's Harbour, Sandy Cove, and Flower's Cove, and Anchor Point - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: You cannot compare their tax bases, Sir, with that of Corner Brook, where only a few years ago the average income of the inhabitants of Corner Brook was listed second highest of all towns and cities in Canada. How can you tell Corner Brook and tell Sandy Cove to raise their taxes to provide water systems, adequate water systems? MR. PECKFORD: (Inaudible). He is misunderstanding the whole point. MR. F.

ROWE: Well if I am misunderstanding the whole point the minister will have his opportunity to clarify it, and I sincerely hope that he will do so. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: But, Sir, I maintain that the councils of this Province have been ordered to raise taxes because of the failure of the government through their own floundering around in industrial and economic development to get revenue into the treasury of this Province to provide municipal services and other services such as education. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Finance. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Chairman, I will not delay this Committee any length of time, but I cannot resist the temptation to get up and say a few words 4234

April 15, 1975 Tape 1436 (Afternoon) PK - 2 on the minister's salary vote here.

First of all, I would like to say, as the honourable minister succeeded me in that portfolio,! would like to take the opportunity of ~ongratulating him in wishing him well in the portfolio because I know probably better than anyone else in the House the onerous task which he took on, the many projects which were started while I was minister there and which he has so energetically and faithfully and with enthusiasm followed up, I have been simply amazed at the time and energy that he has been able to put into it, such matters as the new water system for St.

John's,which got underway during my term of office,and now he is following up very energetically. There is also, of course, in the city of St. John's the need of a very greatly enlarged sewer system which is going to cost tens of millions of dollars and it is something else which is giving him a great deal of concern. Right throughout the country you can name twenty or thirty places where projects were gotten underway which the minister has now to rack his brains to try and complete. And the statement by the honourable Member for St. Barbe North in the light of all of all of this is most unfair.

Because these small municipalities, and some of the larger ones even, the amount of assistance which this government have given to these settlements, these towns and villages has increased very, very substantially. Some of these water systems)for instance,are being subsidized up to the extent of $200,000 a year. Talk about assisting different areas,when there was the amalgamation of Stephenville and Harmon the grant to that particular area was :unmediately doubled from $100,000 to $200,000. And so the story 4235

April 15, 1975 Tape No. 1437 NM - 1 goes all the way along the line, through special grants and regular assistance grants and subsidies on water and sewer systems. There has been a steady increase of assistance to all of these settlements, on top of which last year we brought in, and the minister is also following this up, a new system of assistance for upgrading and paving roads within a community. This is far greater assistance than these communities ever had.

There is a new formula worked out where, I just forget the figures now, but I think it was $600 for the first five miles and $500 for the following number of miles. AN HON. MEMBER: $800. MR. EARLE: I am sorry, $800 for the first five miles and $600 for over five miles. AN HON. MEMBER: Per what? MR. EARLE: Per mile, this is something which is completely overlooked but it is of great assistance to the municipalities and something which I know from the experience I had with them, they were extremely grateful. Also the paving grant was raised from sixty per cent participation by the government from fifty per cent.

So it goes on and on. I just want to say that criticism of what the government is doing in this respect is most illtimed and illplaced. But there is one vital point which people all over the Province have to realize, and I am sure that the minister brings this home to various delegations that ~ome in to see him, that it is virtually impossible, in fact it is impossible for any government to meet the demands of services which the people are putting on them. We see petitions brought in this House practically every few days, for water and sewer systems and many other things, improvements to roads and so on.

While the government is doing its utmost to cope with the most serious of these,and there are many very serious ones around the Province, there is no possible way that any government can tackle these things all at once or even bring them up to a reasonable standard. 4236

April 15, 1975 Tape No. 1437 NM - 2 The last estimate that I had on water and sewer systems alone was $300 million, to bring them up to proper standards and that had probably escalated beyond that today. So to criticize the minister for not being able to do everything for everyone is extremely unfair. MR. ROWE: Point of order, just on a brief point of order, I would like it firmly understood by the Committee that I did not criticize the. minister.

Any criticisms that I directed to anything or anybody was towards this administration and the Deparonent of Municipal Affairs and Housing and in fact I wish the minister every success in rectifying the problems that he has to contend with. At no time did I actually criticize the minister personally or anything like that. I just wish that to go on record. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, the same thing is true because the minister can only do according to the funds which the government allocates to his department to do, and criticism of the government,of course 1is criticism of the minister's work also.

But I will just conclude my remarks by saying that in my opinion this minister has dempnstrated great enthusiasm, great ability to undertake the job. And fiith the funds which the government is making available to him, he is doing an extremely good job.

As I will repeat, there is no government 1no matter who it is, can possibly cope with the demands which the people are making and the fact that local governments, such as municin~li~ies and school tax boards and so on are being asked to share, to take their share of the responsibility, in my opinion is only a proper democratic process which if the people of the Province want services and demand services, they have to be prepared to bear a proportion of paying for them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Chairman, in relation to that letter that the honourable Member for St. Barbe North mentioned, he is misunderstanding the whole thrust, and the whole tone and tenor of that circular. And if I can just reiterate again, and I will try to do it as briefly as I can 4237

April 15, 1975 Tape No. 1437 NM - 3 Mr. Chairman, chat che whole thrust and tone of that letter is t his; nobody expects a small municipality, Cooks Harbour 01: Savage Cove or Green Island Cove, whatever it is down on the North Coast, any small mllllicipality, to eve,: have to pay the kinds of taxes that they are paying 1n an urban region like Corner Brook or St. John's .

What the circular is uying to get across to inunicipalities. there are a number of things, but the thing that the honourable member brought up is that if you~ service fee now, this past year is $10 a year and you have a very small business tax, you might only have two or chree businesses in that municipali ty anyway, so you are not going to get too much -revenue from them.

If that municipality is requesting of government capital expenditures in the tune of $1 million or $2 million , is it not reasonable to expect that municipality to make extra efforts to expand its tax base to bring in more tax revenue if the governmen t is going to outlay capital funds of $1 million or $2 million for a water and sewer system and what we are saying in that regard is in that circular, that the municipality must agree to a $12 a month water and sewer rate . And Mr. Chairman, l have to reiterate that $U per month vater and sewer rate will only , and some cases will not, 4238

.A.pril 15, 1<)75. Tape 1438 RR - 1 maintain that water and sewer system once it is installed. It will not pay one nickel on the interest on that capital outlay and it will not pay one nickel on the repayment of the principal of that outlay. So, all we are. trying to say to municipalities is:

(1) You have to use better bookkeeping practices. You cannot tranfer funds out of the utility of a budget to use for some other purpose in the municipality. If you set up an account for utility, use the money in that account for utility and another one for roads and another one for whatever. So, it is a matter of bookkeeping and it is essential if municipalities are going to try to be more responsible in looking after large sums of money that are passed over from the Province to the municipalities.

This is all we are saying, that you cannot expect, it is unreasonable to expect government to not say to a mtmicipality, look, you have got a $In or $12 a year service fee. t!ake more reasonable efforts to increase that service fee over a period of time so that you will be in a position when that ~~ater and sewer system is in to, at least, accumulate enough dollars to maintain that system. It is just vitally necessary. It is 1oasic 1 sound econbmics.

It has to be done because in the first instance, talking about Cook's Harbour, talking about Cook's Harbour, last year this administration subsidized a water system in Cook's Harbour to the tune of $42,806.59, that this Tory administration subsidized the water system in Flowers Cove to the tune of $24,531.62, that this government last year subsidized the system in Goose Cove,down in that same area,to the tune of Sl9,352.51 and we are going to continue to have to subsidize new systems. Nobody is saying we are not.

This ~drninistration is not passing the buck,because in saying that the implication is that no longer will you need all of these various subheads from the Department of Municipal Affairs for outlay of money, no longer will you need that. That kind of a statement indicates quite clearly that the government is not going to put any more dollars into these municipalities for any kinds of programmes and that is wrong. This year, I think the subhead here for subsidies on systems is increased 4239

April 15, 1975. Tape 1438 RH - 2 from $7 million to $9 million or something, $9 million to subsidize water and sewer systems in this Province, $9 million, up from $7 million last year.

All the programmes that we have in the department are expanding financially and in other ways, the various conditions that are put on these programmes and that we will continue to provide additional revenue grants over the next few years,and we will continue to have a firefighting programme,and we will continue to have a reconstruction of paving programme, and we will continue to raise capital funds for new projects in which we are going to have to pay a subsidy on that system.

But it is only reasonable to say to municipalities,you must increase your tax revenue when you get into heavily capitalized projects of $1 million or $2 million because otherwise, the municipality is going to find itself in the unfortunate dilemma down the road in a year or two of not only having to turn to the government to subsidize the system or pay off the interest and principal, but we are going to have to give it, that municipality, special grants to maintain that system.

So, all the way along the line you are finding the problems of the department involved and somewhere the municipality must recognize that they are going to have to gradually increase their taxes in line with the increased services that they are receiving. You cannot expect to get improved and more and increased services and at the same time keep your tax rate and base at the same level as it was two or three years ago. As you move ahead so must everything else go up. In other words, you cannot get something for nothing.

As you get a new town hall or as you get a new fire truck or as you get an extension to your water system, these are capital projects involving 4240

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1439 Page l - mw large expenditures of money. If you want those things then you are going to have to pay your share of them.

We will still pay our share and be heavily involved in it hence that is the whole reason for this kind of a circular to try to impress upon municipalities the importance .of good,sound bookkeeping practices in relation to the money that they spend, number one,and number two,to indicate to them when they get involved in capital projects that they must recognize that they have a financial responsibility in this regard and if they want to see improved services and more services then they_ are going to have to pay more taxes. That does not mean that we are not still going to be subsidizing the system.

That does not mean that we are still not going to be putting out huge expenditures for them. But it does mean that we must co-operate together financially in the whole effort. But it is recognized by this governmet that for many years to come the Department of Municipal Affairs is going to be taking ninety to one hundred per cent of the finances for any of these projects.

Now on property taxes,which will.become,no doubt,the chief revenue generating procedure of a municipality, _if a municipality today in this Province decided that it wanted to go into property tax, that it wanted to implement a property tax, this is 1975, April, it is quite conceivable with the work load and all right now that if they requested that today, it would be the Spring of 1977 before taxes would actually be collected, property taxes would actually be collected. It would take perhaps that long. AN HON. MEMBER: _MR. PECKFORD: To assess.

That is right, and assess the property in a municipality and get it set up. So even if a lot of municipalities started just today, it would take that long for the citizens in that municipality to be actually paying a property tax. And in the larger centres of the Province, in the larger municipalities, you know, not just Cook's Harbour or even any of the smaller-places, but there are some large municipalities around this Province right now that do not have ., a property tax, and they are losing valuable and many dollars because of 4241

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1439 Page 2 - mw it. And it is difficult for a large municipality of 3,000 or 4,000 people or more, even 2,000 people or more, to really progress because if it is a large municipality it is going to need that many more services very often, right,proportiooately. You know, if you only got 500 people in a community, the area of that community and its boundary might be less than a larger municipality and you have more roads and so on and so, therefore, it is to their advantage to get into the property tax field. So the whole purpose of that letter, Mr.

Chairman, is as I have just outlined,and it is not meant that the government is passing the buck or anything like that. We are not passing the buck, but we are trying to impress upon councils that when you get involved in capital, heavy capital outlays, that correspondingly their tax rate base must be either increased or enlarged or both in order to handle it. Otherwise that vote now that we are talking about right now, existing syste~,forget about that new systems this year,~~ million on existing systems that this government is paying in subsidies. You know I can go down over some of them.

For last year, you know, subsidies on existing systems, $12,000, $75,000, $77,000, $38,000, $35,000, $126,000, $5,000, $30,000, $35,000, $38,000 $10,000, $49,000, $47,000, $87,000, $7,000, $42,000, $8,000 $35,000, $29,000, $67,000, you know, and on it goes. These are subsidies being paid by the department on existing water systems, not to mention new capital outlays as will be necessary and then the result of subsidies on those. So it is a pretty massive tABk. And as I mentioned, Mr.

Chairman, I will just; reiterate i _t again for the record, as I mentioned yesterday, over $100 million in the last three years, $86 million of new projects have been started by this administration. That does not indicate to me that this administration is trying to pass the buck, nothing of the kind. But as we move now ahead even further, everybody is aware of it, and I am just stating the obvious that as society gets more complicated as it is in the rural parts of the Province, as the requests and demands grow, and want the same services as they have 4242

April 15, 1975 Tape no . 1439 Page 3 - mw .in Corr;aet Brook or Grand Falls or in St. John's as they get into developm.en ·t; contr(?ls · and so on and wanting housing develGpments I and all . the rest resulting from that logically is the fact ' 1 that, that municipality then must expand its tax base and increase , its -tax rates in order to bring about those necessary seri:l.cee 1 not f~rietting for a moment that the main leadership financially in every othe-r: way must be tu.en by the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. F. B. ROWE: The minister said that I misunderstood the letter. I submit that the minister misunderstood me,and for my

part 4243

April 15, 1975 Tape 1440 (afternoon) IB-1 I have made my statements. The minister has made his, I do not think the minister nor the government or any member can deny the fact that the government have asked the councils to increase their taxes. The minister interprets it as sharing. I interpret it as asking for an increase. We can continue on for a great number of hours, you know, who is right and who is wrong. I submit once again that we will be only trying to win debating points. I would suggest, Sir, that we have both made our points.

It is up to the Committee and the people of the Province to determine who is right or who is wrong or partially right or wrong. I, in agreement with the Member for St. John's East, would submit that we now try to get through the estimates of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing as quickly as possible in order that we may debate a very important matter, such as Mines and Energy. Now, if members opposite continue to filibuster as they did yesterday, I will get up and speak on every head and subhead in this department.

But, for my part and my colleagues' part, we are quite willing to go ahead and let it go through with a few minor questions. MR. PECKFORD: Just one thing for the record, Mr. Chairman, very briefly. Here is an excerpt from that circular which says this - it is the second J)aragraph~ "This department of course recognizes the fact that in many instances municipalities are unable to raise sufficient revenues from the operation of the water and sewer systems to meet maintenance and operating costs as well as debt charges.

In such circumstances, the principle has been well established that where a special subsidy has been approved, financial assistance will be made available to municipalities if there has been a genuine attempt to maximize local revenues. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Chairman, just a very few brief comments on what I would like to bring to the attention of the minister and the Committee.

Although the minister bas indeed given notice to the municipalities that they should raise their taxes,and indeed a lot of the municipalities have given notice and it has been approved that their taxes have heen increased to the minister I I do not think the big danger lies with the 4244

AprH 15, 1 <l75 TApe 1440 (afternoon) IB-2 increase in taxes, Mr. Chairman. Rut there is another danger, and I think 1t is prevalent throughout the whole of the Province, where there are a numher of community counc1ls with delinquent accounts that have not heen collected for a long period of time. I have detected in a number of communities a lot of concern hy people who are paying taxes and helping to subsidize people who are not paying taxes and are left in arrears for a long period of time, and then indeed the taxes are written off and then the people with the delinquent accounts are let go free. Now, I looked at an

article in The Telegram yesterday with regarr'ls to the Town of Happy Valley having a tax increase on the water and sewerap.e from $8.00 a month to $12.00 a month and the other related taxes,a net increase of some fifty per cent. When you look at this type of a situation and you look at the good citizens of the community who have heen paying taxes regularly and you see a large percentage of the community who are not paying taxes, then the day will arrive when it will he very difficult unless you go through the legal procedures, to collect any taxes in the community.

In the event of this - in the case of the Town of Happy Valley, I think they have delinquent accounts to the extent of some $300,000 for one munic1pality. So - AN HONOURAllLE MEMBElt.: Why do you not pay your taxes down there? l'ffi. WOODWARD: All I have left - I am paying them every year. llut, Mr. Chairman, I think this is a very serious matter. The attitudes, I think, of community councils today is the fact that they are creatures of the provincial government and they expect guidance and to be monitored by the provincial government.

Indeed, T feel that if all the delinquent accounts were collected in the communities, everyone will share in the burden of taxes in the community. Then there would not he a need today to increase 4245

April 15, 1975 Tape 1441 (Afternoon) PK - 1 taxes to the extent that they have been increased. And I say that there should be some system of control that is set by the Department of Municipal Affairs, and by the minister , in effect , that any delinquent accounts that are delinquent for over a period of three months should be indeed collected, and not be allowed to accumulate for a period of years and years. They will find it very difficult in a lot of communities to collect taxes in the event that the delinquent accounts are not recovered.

I sympathize with the minister, I know he has a monumental task and the nJ.llUber of co11111unity councils is a problem that he is faced with. And I think in terms, Sir, that we will always have that particular problem in the · event that we do not go to in this Province some regional system of government. I think it is indeed needed. I think the communities that are far away do not get the attention from government that they should get.

We have appointed now a very good friend of mine, a person whom J know very well,as the regional supervisor for the West Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, and he has established an office in Corner Brook 0 We have not yet seen him in Labrador. There is no doubt he is dealing with problems some place else. But if this is allowed to go on then I suspect that, Mr . Chairman, that the whole system of taxation would break down and then we will be faced with more problems. It is a serlous problem. Maybe the minister as .he goes through the subheads can comment on it.

But there is no way that a number of people if they know the taxes are delinquent are going to pay taxes, because they feel there is no way that a community where they have taxpayers, fifty per cent are paying, fifty per cent are delinquent, there is no way that fifty per cent of the taxpayers, ·the assessed taxpayers in that community should support their community. And neither will they. You will see a lot of troubled areas in this respect, Mr. Chairman, and I suspect that the minister should come to grips with that very problem. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. GILLETT: Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! 4246

April 15, 1975 Tape 1441 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, just to clue up on those few comments I could not agree with the honourable member more than - and I mentioned yesterday one of the factors that of tax delinquency and the things that that causes. And what we have been doing in a lot of cases - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . PECKFORO: Exactly. And living in a small municipality myself I, you know, am pretty well aware of that situation.

And what we have been saying recently in the last three or four months in a lot of cases where we have municipalities who are coming in and saying look, you know, Mr. Minister,we have to finish this waterline and we need more money for snow clearing or whatever, and we take a look at their tax collections, which we can do now,see,with this financial division, this is why it is so important, you know, this is why we can get this circular together and back it up with people out in the field to help the different municipalities. We have been saying to them, let us take a look at your tax collections.

And when we find that their tax collections are down, we say, okay rather than give you a special grant right now, let us just go for two weeks, you go back, and for two ~eeks really put on a determined effort to collect more taxes, to collect the back ones. And many times they have come back and instead of needing a special grant of $5,000 very often they might only need $1,000 and they can borrow the rest without a guaranteed loan or anything, because now they are going to have the revenue to take it. AN HON • MIDIBER: Inaudible. MR. PECKFORD: Yes. And, you know, I am very keen on that.

And where it can be done it must be pushed. The other thing is on regional government.I suspect there will be a lot said about that in the next three or four months, very definitely - AN HON. MEI-IBER.: Inaudible. MR. PECKFORD: it is going to be zeroed in on, and in many cases is going to, I think, help · the whole situat1on. The business of Labrador and the area administrator - we have planned now for some time after our seminar in Deer Lake, if that is where we have it, to go down to Labrador, Mr. Colbourne and myself and do a tour of the coast down there, and contact the members involved before we 4247

April 15, 1975 Tape 1441 (Afternoon) PK - 3 go and to help us out in that. So hopefully before the last of June we will be down in your area and you can show us firs t hand some of the pr~blems if you are available, of if you can give us some notes on it . So we will try and do what we can there for you. The other thing, Mr. Chairman, before •we get off of this first subnead.

I would just like to point out to the Committee just as a matter of information tha t since the 1st. of Janua r y I have seen 193 Delegations from councils in the Province, I saw for.ty Delegation s in January; sixty-si x in February; forty-six in March; and already in April forty, that is forty-one now as of thic morning. So AN BON. }!E~WER: Inaudible . 4248

April 15, 1975, Tape 1442, Page 1 -- apb Afternoon MR. PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: MR. PECKFORD: No. No. So that is one hundred - - you are up in your office pawning them off - No, I do not. I have no cODDUittee to pawn them off on anyway. I see them all. If anybody wants to see me, I see them. The door is always open. Always open, Sir. MR. NEARY: You need to get the Premier to open his door now. MR. PECKFORD: I just want to point out to the C0111111ittee that since January I have seen 193 dele11;ations and I have handled 1,594 pieces of mail.

It breaks down; in January 407 pieces; February 439; March 507, and up to April 14, in April 241 that I have handled there. So this will give you some idea of the workload of the department and we are trying to do what we can about it. MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: Are you looking for a raise or something now? Could the minister tell us before he takes his seat why,in his opinion 1so many members of town councils throughout the Province are resigning? Is it due to pressure of work? Is it due to lack of finances? Is it due to lack of co-operation from the Minister and the government?

Is it due to the fact that they are being abused or criticized locally? Why is it? This is something that concerns me greatly, why is it that so many members of town councils, mayors, deputy mayors and councillors throughout the Province are resigning and sometimes resigning en masse? Is it because they are not getting paid for doing their job? What is the reason for it? Because, you know, you are not going to get anybody to serve in these jobs if this continues. Obviously, they are developing a bad reputation. Could the minister tell us what the reason for it is? MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Chairman, I cannot give you a definitive answer on that. I think you have to take each case individually and take a look at it and see, because it varies from place to place. In some places it is a matter of pretty intense petty rivalry between councillors. One councillor or the mayor lives in one

section of town and the rest of the councillors the other

section of town. And when they start a capital project and the 4249

April 15, 1975, Tape 1442, Page 2 -- apb mayor's

section is done first or something, everybody gets on their high horse that he knows of a sort of conflict of interest sort of thing, he had it done first, Other times it might be because we are not communicating properly although I do not know of any cases right now between the department and the councils. But there are all the factors that the honourable member mentioned and more. All I would say is, that right now in order to really assess it you would have to take each municipality as it happens there and look at it - MR. NEARY: It would be worth doing a study on and seeing the reason. MR. PECKFORD: Yes.

Someobdy over at the university should be able to do a thesis on that. AN HON. '.1EMBER: MR. BARRY: AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Ho ho, that is a mistake. Vocational school. MR. PECK.FORD: Okay, I will buy that. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): The honourable the Member for Twillingate. MR .• GILLETT: I shall not detain the Committee for very long, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to support my colleague from Labrador North. I think that is one of the major problems, Mr, Chairman, in the financing of the municipalities.

I am thinking of a municipality within my own district now, and a delegation is coming in to see the honourable minister on Tuesday of next week. That is their main problem, collecting the fees. And the least little excuse the people can get, you know, perhaps to refuse to pay, they will use. I believe with the honouarble Member for Labrador North that three months should be long enough to allow a householder to be delinquent in his payments, I am wondering, Mr.

Chairman, if it would not be a good idea to have some sort of a central collection system to which the municipality would submit a list of the delinquent amounts due that council. For instance, at the end of every three months a list of accounts would go in. It cannot be 4250

April 15, 1975 , Tape 1442, Page 3 - apb three months, I suppose, because it is paid on a yearly basis. Rut that collection committee would have more weight behind it, would have more push than the local authority. I say this because in a sl'llall community the councillors are in very many cases related to a lot of the inhabitants of that community. They do not want 4251

April 15, 1975 Tape 1443 (afternoon) Ill-1 to get in dutch with them. '!'hey do not want to have a lot of enemies in the area. But if some sort of a legislation if necessary to be hroup.ht down and then a system set up whereby the accounts would be collected and drastic measures would be taken to collect those accounts by a collection committee, not for profit necessarily, but an arm of the government, of the administration,perhaps Mr. Smallwood would call it. If an arm of the administration were to collect those fees or the community or the council, then I think, Mr.

Chairman, there would not be the necessity for delegations to be coming here so often and approaching the minister for grants, for loans. Neither would they be faced with the problem of having their street lights turned off hy the Newfoundland Light and Power which I understand has been a big threat to some municipalities. I support wholeheartedly, ¥r. ~hairman, the suggestion made by the honourable Member for Labrador North. It is something that I have been thinking of for quite a while.

I think it is the only way that they are going to finance it, and that is to be very strict with the delinquents because we have thousands and thousands and thousands. MR. PECKFORD : Mr. Chairman, you know, the tax delinquency thing is an important element in tax revenues in a municipality, but I have to reiterate and I agree that a lot could be collected. When you are talking about a municipality, community council or even the town council in some cases where you only have an $8.00 or ~9.00 a year service fee, you do not have a water and sewer installation there. So, you do not have any water and sewer rates.

Tax collections are important and delinquency should not be allowed. Perhaps we should think about some way of getting at it. But, there should not, we should not hav• - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudihle. MR. PECKFORD: Well, the garbage thing comes under the service fee usually if they are incorporated. That is where they get the - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, but the point still should be made that right 4252

April 15, 1975 Tape 1443 (afternoon) IB-2 now as it stands even with these delinquencies because the rates are very low :In many communities, you do not, even though there are a lot of delinquent taxpayers, because the rate is as low as it is, it would not enhance the financial position of the community to such a degree that it would permit it to do anything major in the way of expansion in the town, that it is twofold. It is tax delinquency and a very low tax base. It is strange though, outside of those two factors, it is strange - that some communities involved are five miles apart.

One .commun:I ty has a tax collection rate of up to ninety, ninety-five per cent and the community next door has only a fifty or sixty per cent tax collection rate. You often ask. You wonder why. Sometimes it is the kind of people who inhabit those communities, number one. Number two, it is very often the case of a very strong council, very strong council where very often the town clerk or the town manager or whoever will go from door to door each month and almost demand, you know, that this service fee be paid. I have seen many cases in my own district where the difference is just startling.

Two communities right alongside of each other. One community with even a higher tax rate sometimes, will have a high collection and the next community Yill have a low. I ~uess it .has something to do with the people and also with the kind of leadership and strength of the municipal body. MF.. NEARY: Does the minister have any idea how much the taxes in arrears would amount to? It must he in the millions and millions of dollars.

It would be an interesting exercise for the minister to p,et one of his officials to run it through the computers to find out just what the total taxes in arrears of all the municipalities, town councils, community councils and so forth is in Newfoundland. It would be very interesting to find out. I will bet it amounts to millions and millions of dollars. ~ . PEr.KFORD: It would not really tell the story because if you just took the sum of the tax arrears you would get so many millions of dollars. It would sound like a fantastic amount of money. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudih le. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, 4253

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1444 Page 1 - mw but then if you raise it per municipality and s·o on, it would be a more realistic appraisal of the whole situation. You know by just taking the sum total and saying there was $7 million tax arrears in municipalities in 1974, you would say, my gracious, all the work that could do. You would have to relate it to the given municipality to just see how much better off they would be or not be or whatever. On motion 1901-01 through to 1902-02-04 carried. MR. MURPHY: As a matter of interest, the public information prograDDne, Mr. Chairman, is that your own - AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MURPHY: No, I do not think. No. It is the silent five who sing all the favourite numbers. AN HON. MEMBER: George McLean. MR. PECKFORD: The public information prograDDne is just to provide brochures, prepare exhibitions, produce slides, video tapes, when necessary - they have not been doing anything on that lately - and pamphlets on planning and other controls. MR. MURPHY: Pamphlets and that sort of thing, yes. MR. PECKFORD: We just did a brochure, Mr. Chairman, and, of course, we will be sending it around to all honourable members. _MR. MURPHY: Yes. That is what I was thinking of. MR.

PECK.FORD: Explaining the department - MR. MURPHY: Excellent. MR. PECKFORD: - a bit more. And all the delegations who come in we try to make sure that they get a copy of it so they can go back explai~in~ the divisions and so on. MR. MURPHY: Excellent. MR. PECKFORD: So it is mostly brochures and pamphlets. MR. MURPHY: Good. On motion 08 through to 1903-03-03 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 04 carry? MR. NEARY: Is there an increase in pay for the Chai:rman and members of the board or what? MR. MURPHY: Yes, an extra $70,000 a year for the chairman. 4254

April 15, 1975 Tape no. 1444 Page 2 - mw MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 05 carry? MR. NEARY: Wait now. MR. MURPHY: Hold ' it. MR. PECKFORD: The Metropolitan Area Board you are on now, is it? MR. MURPHY: Do you want your deputy minister in with you? MR. PECKFORD: No, it is quite all right. It is up from $415,000 from $348,000. That increase is due to an increase in staff for development control purposes in the areas within the jurisdiction. MR. NEARY: Who is the chairman and who are the members of the board? MR. PECKFORD: I can get that -information for you shortly.

I have not got it right at my finger tips here now, but I will have it in a second, and I will get the members of the board and that for you. Okay? On motion 04 to 06 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 07 carry? MR. NEARY: Can the minister give us a list of paving projects for the various municipalities for this coming year? MR. PECKFORD: For this coming year, Mr. Chairman, we have not done up our capital works programme for paving or for water and sewer projects yet.

There are quite a few requests down there which we are hoping to meet within the next week or two to finalize, you know, the requests in line with the money. So we do not have any list at all right now and w~ere that money is to be spent. We have a lot of requests in. MR. NEARY: I wonder if the minister could tell us on what basis the various communities will be listed in order of priority? How will they be selected? Will they be put in a hat and will the draw be independent? Will it be like playing the slot machine? You know1you put your nickel in and you pull the handle and you take your chance.

Or will it be done on a political basis? Will the members of the government and the backbenchers get first priority, first preference? MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Order, please: AN HON. MEMBER: Alphabetical order. 425.5

April 15, 1975 T.ape no. 1~44 Page ;3 - mw MR. NEARY: What do you mean order, Sir? Are you tiµking to me, Your Honour, or the Premier? MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy}: The Hon. Member for aell Ia.land was referring to - the line of questioning I do not think is relevant to 03-07 at all. MR. NEARY: Paving grants - I am trying to find out the list. MR. CHAIRMAN: I am av.are of - MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. Could Your Honour give me a citation for that ruling? Sir, I am trying to get a list. I am trying to find out how the minister will arrive 4t his list. Will he just flip a coin end say, here is who is going to get the paving?

Or will he put the names of the communities in a hat? MR. CHAIRMAN O!r. Dunphy) : Order, ple_ase ! I think 'the honourable gentleman is- bring, if it is possible to be repetitious and then repetitipus again, I think one question would suffice to the minister for any forthcoming answer. it is not necessary to go out outside of that particular question or to get an answer to the question tha:t he seeks. ldR. NEARY: Sir., I am merely asking the m:Lnis.ter 4256

April 15, 1975, Tape 1445, Pagel -- apb MR. NEARY: how he will arrive at the list of those municipalities and communities that will get paving grants on a sixty-forty basis from this grant in this coming year? End of question. Now I will turn it over to the minister and no doubt, Sir, I will get the answer. · AN !ION. MEMBER: Hear: Hear: MR. MURPHY: That is right. That is the proper way to ask a question. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Chairman, I do not know how many requests we have in but the normal procedure is that if a municipality wants to pave a number of roads under its jurisdiction, they make a request in writing to the department and we might have enough capital funds to do just about all the requests that are in from all the municipalities. If we have to choose, pick and choose or decide on what criteria to use because we are getting short of monev and we have more requests, we will do it on the basis of, very often, need.

If we have a municipality where they are really in bad shape because they have no paved roads at all ancl there is a dust problem and this kind of thing, we will definitely give that some priority over another municipality that has quite a few paved roads and just want a few side streets done. As lonr as they can come with their forty per cent we will come up with our sixty then, automatically. So, you know, there is no flipping the coin and so on. \Jhen we can we wil 1 do it on need. l\'l, !ION. MEMBER: MR . PECKFORD: MR. EVANS: Not like olaying the slot machines. Not like playin~ the slot machines.

If they are stupid enough to vote Liberal they would not know if it were paved or not. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): The honourable the Member for Twillingate. MR. GILLETT: Mr. Chairman, I noticed the remark you made about the side streets in the community and I am thinking about the Community Council of Twillingate now. We do have the pavement, as you know1around the Department of Highwayi roads,or Transportation, The side streets are not paved and we do have the machinery there. ,.,c:., ...... W''

April 15, 1975, Tape 1445, Page 2 -- apb And I do hope that you have a request to pave it and I pray it will be done. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy) : Shall 07 carry? MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, just to reply there.

Very often, and I would just like to impress upon the Committee this point right now, what I found in the last two or three months is that a number of councils, quite a few all around the Province frrespective of what district or whatever, it is everywhere, councils come in verbally with requests and I told them in very strong terms; look, get your request in in writing indicating the number of miles of road that you are talking about, try to get some kind of a price from the contractor whom you know is going to be in the area.

If you cannot do that get a price from the Department of Highways, the local foreman and get it into us as fast as you can. In the Twillingate case I hope that they have the request in because the requests are coming in fast and furious and the quicker they get it in the better. So perhaps the honourable -member could get in touch with the Council in Twillingate to ensure that they have a request in and it will be given every consideration. AN HON. MEMBER: killed in the rush. MR.

PECK.FORD: Get it in early or you are liable to get There is a lot of pavement down that way and I think a lot of it is good P.C. pavement of the last two or three years and I do not think we would like to stop now. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. MURPHY: First time it was down there. Mr. Chairman, just a short question. These paving grants, what did St. John's get? In these paving grants do we get a street or a road done? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. MURPHY: No,we do not get a bit of paving at all. Is there anything available for St. John's? I do represent a St. John's 4258

April 15,1975, Tape 1445, Page 3 -- apb District and it mi~ht be nice to see a bit of free paving in St. John's Center. MR. NEARY: All you get are Dottie's potties. --- ·--- MR. MURPHY: Who? MR. NEARY: Dottie's potties. MR. MURPHY: Dottie's potties. I thought you were talking about McCain's pies for a minute. Does the minister have any information on that? In other words,you go out to an outside district and you pave certain streets at no cost to the taxpayer and in the City of St. John's we have to pay? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sixty-forty. MR. MURPHY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MURPHY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MURPHY: AN HON.

MEMBER: MR. MURPHY: MR. PECKFORD: MR. MURPHY: ~IR. PECKFORD: MR. MURPHY: MR. PEO<FORD: Sixty-forty. And we do not get that in - Yes,we do. Do we in St. John's? More than that. A federal grant. Do we? Oh yes. Oh I see. Yes. Yes. We do eh? Oh yes, that applies to all the municipalities. Eh? That applies to all the municipalities. The main thrust now of the Department of Municipal Affairs comes under another subhead here. The main thrust now financially in St. John's comes under another subhead. When we talk about the regional water s upply and the Rennie's Mill River trunk sewer.

The massive amounts of money that the provincial government are putting into St. John's in that particular development MR. MURPHY: Sixty-forty to spend. On motion 07, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphv): Shall 08, carry? MR. NEARY: - ----- Mr. Chairman, I am going to try my luck again, Sir. 4259

April 15, 1975, Tape 1445, Page 4 - apb MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy) : The honourable the Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chai rmari, the honourable gentleman for - That is pretty barefaced, I must say. The honourable gentleman will have to wait - Pretty barefaced that is. I want to speak on this vote in connection with the St. John's water system . MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy) : Order,please! MR. NEARY: Are you &<?ing to take your advice f rom the hired help in the l:iouse, Sir·? 4260

April 15, 1975 Tape 1446 (Afternoon) PK - 1 l'llt. NEARY: Make up vour mind. MR. CHAIRMAN: (DUNPHY) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: The flunkies in here do not - t!R. CHAIRHAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! I would like for the honourable gentleman to withdraw that statement that the Chair is barefaced. NR. NEARY: No, Sir, I did not say the Chair was barefaced. MR . CllAIRHAN (DUNPHY): Well 1 the gentleman in the Chair. }!R. NEARY: I was referring to the Minister of Fisheries- pretty barefaced. I appre cia t e t ,1e au thorit y -- ~-!R.

CHA.IRNAN (DUNPHY): I think the honourable gentleman would be out of order in referring to the other honourab~e gentleman of Fisheries as being barefaced. MR. NEARY: Well,okay. I will withdraw it. MR. CHAIRMAN: (DUNPHY): would ask him to withdraw it. MR. NEARY: I apologize to the honourable Minister of Fisheries, Sir, He i s not barefaced. He did shave this morning, although he looks like his beard is growing out now, Sir. Ile looked barefaced to me. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Dl.mPHY): The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. STAGG: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

I think one of the other statements made by the honourable member that ~ttention should be drawn to is to refer to the gentlemen at the Table as flunkies. These are gentlemen who are here they are educated men, ~hey give good advice to the Chair. Ancl it is unheard of)as far as I am concerned,to have them referred to in the derogatory way in which the honourable member did. That should be withdra= as well. MR . F. ROWE : To that point of order, Mr. Chairman.

It may well be a good point of order, but I would submit to the Committee that participation of the Deputy Speaker or the Chairman of Committees in an instance like this, you know, this is probably the reason for some of the problems that we have run into over the past few months. Now I would just like to make that point. I am not questioning the motives or anything of the Member for - '"o-rt au Port is it? AN HON. MEMBER: Port au Port. 4261

April 15, 1975 Tape 1446 (Aft