THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, April 22nd, 1963. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q.C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the second report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR . CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their second report. Your Committee has considered Bills No.4,

An Act to amend The Civil Service Act; No.7,

An Act to validate Order-in-Council 1566/62; No.19,

An Act to confirm a certain agreement between the Government of C.mada and the Government of Mani­ toba; No.67,

An Act respecting Grants to Colleges affiliated with The University of Manitoba; No.55,

an Act to amend The Jury Act; No. 56,

An Act to amend the Devolution of Estates Act; No. 57,

An Act to amend The

Interpretation Act; No. 58,

An Act to Repeal The Acts of Incor­ poration of Certain Corporations; No.71,

An Act to amend The Wives' and Children's Mainten­ ance Act; No.74,

An Act to amend The Judgments Act; No. SO,

An Act to amend

an Act to Incorporate the Sinking Fund Trustees of The Winnipeg School Division No.1; No. 97,

An Act to amend The Virden and District Elderly fer sons Housing Corporation; No. 22,

An Act to amend

An Act for the Relief of the Estate of Charlie Yoimg, deceased. And has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your Committee has also considered Bills No. 50, An let to amend the Mining Royalty and Tax Act; No. 54,

An Act to amend The Hospitals Act; No.91,

An Act to amend The Crown Lands Act; and has agreed to report the same with Certain Amendments. Your Committee recommends that the following Bills which were originally referred to the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for consideration, be now referred to the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations. No. 48,

An Act to amend The Fair Wage Act; No.60,

An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act, No.l. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Welfare that the Report of the Committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Speaker, just one question. We are now receiving the report. I'm wondering when the report -­ concurrence insofar as the transfer, or if this is necessary, concurrence insofar as the transfer of the two bills is concerned -- On Labour. MR.

LYON: I understand that concurrence as such is not required. The report is accepted and any statement contained in it with respect to the transfer of the bills would be accepted if the report is receilred. I might just mention in that connection that it is our intention to ask the Clerk to designate, or give notice, of the Committee on Industrial Relations meeting Friday morning next, at 10 A. M. in connection with the two Bills. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills HON.

GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-lberville): Madam gpeaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the following resolutions. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable the Member for St.Matthews in the Chair. MR. HUTTON: Mr •.

Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolutions recommends them to this House. MR . CHAIRMAN: Re sol uti on No .1, Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting the control of plant pests and plant diseases and providing, among other matters, for the appointment of inspectors, officers, and other employees required to administer and enforce the measure and for the payment of their salaries or other remuneration. Resolution be adopted? April 22nd, 1963 Page 1453

MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, this revises the existing1 Plant Pest Act. It is a re­ writing of the Act bringing it up-to-date to cope with conditions as they exist today. In 1961, we received reports of the first outbreak in this part of the country of Dutch Elm disease in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. As you know, the American Elm is the most planted shade tree in western Canada; the most widely used boulevard tree and also one of the major trees in farm­ stead and field shelter belt plannings on the Canadian prairies.

This disease is not listed in · the Hant Pests Act and arrival of this disease in western Canada could mean the eventual loss of most of the shade trees in the prairies. ·Remedial action on the appearance of this disease should be immediate. The other disease and insect pests are listed in the Act and even if it were IDSSible under .the present Act to have a regulation for control of Dutch Elm disease, conside,rable delay would probably occur before any control measures could be implemented.

It is proposed in the re­ vised Act to remove the names of all the insect and disease pests listed in the Act and to have these put in regulations to be drawn up under the Act. The general terminology of the revised Act has not been changed materially from that of its predecessor except in the changes men­ tioned above and in one or two cases to clarify the meaning. Provision is also set out in the revised Act for certificat ion of nursery stock.

Up until about four years ago certification of raspberries was handled by the Federal Government and at that time it was turned over to the provinces but we have had no provision in our Act for this, although the Ontario Government has included this in their legislation. Because of this the term "certified stock" for raspberries has come to lose much of its original meaning. Certified raspberry stock is stock similar to certified potato seed and as such is subject to more stringent inspection than that required for normal commercial stock.

The Plant Pests Act governs the registration and inspection of commercial nurseries; stipulates the registration and outlines procedures to be taken for the control of such pests and diseases. Under the terms of the present Act because it lists pests found on only fruit plants, apples, crabapples, pears, plums and potatoes and peas, there is no provision for registration of a nursery where only ornamental plantings are propagated. Some of these could have pests and diseases as serious as the ones listed.

Some of the registered nurserymen are a little critical at times, and rightly so, why they should be forced to be registered while a nurseryman who does not grow fruit plants is not required to be registered. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted. MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster ): .•.••••.•. this pest only found out recently or was it in existence for some time. If it was, why bring it up at such a late date and to what extent the damage has already been done. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside) : Mr.

Chairman, if I heard the Honourable Minister, I understood him to say that it was proposed to take out of the Act the present listings and to make them all, put them all under Order-in-Council. Wouldn't it be better -- I suggest it would be better -- to leave the list in the Act, name the additional ones that the Minister is prepared to deal with now and provide for additions to be made by Order-in-Council. I would think there w.ould be some advantage in having the list appear in the Act, or as a

schedule to the Act, but, to make the point that the Honourable the Minister has in mind, to make provisions for additions to be made at any time by The Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. MR. HUTTON: If there are no more questions I would say that this disease referred to is not a problem in western Canada at the present time. It is to shore-up our inspection and surveillance and to protect our assets that we are revising the Act at this present time.

Insofar as to whether it is better to list the specified plants and diseases in the Act or whether it is better to put them in the regulations is a question that I feel ill-qualified to pass too much opm10n on. I bow to the legal advisers in these matters. This matter did receive consider­ ation and we have for one reason and another decided to put them -- provide for them under regulations. This matter, of course, I expect could be raised in the Committee stage and discussed if it is felt to be important.

We felt that, and I think the Honourable Member for Lake side recognized this in his remarks, that sometimes you want to move quickly on these matters and you should have the power, by regulation, subject to certain conditions to the surveillance of the department, but this is an open question. Page 1454 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) ...• We decided to do it this way. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted. Passed. Resolution No. 2, Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting pensions and disability allowances for teachers and providing, among other matters for certain payments from the Consolidated Fund to the fund established for payment of such pensions and disability allowances. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN, Q.C. (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, this Bill provides for the new Teachers' Pension Plan. We had some discussion about this a year ;tgo.

The Plan follows the general principles that had been suggested and requested by the Manitoba Teachers' Society and the Bill which is quite extensive and will receive, detailed consideration on second reading, provides for this plan. It also provides for the manner in which the funds are to be provided for the pensions. Some members may note the use of the term in the resolution on the Order Paper of Disability Allowances.

I just hasten to say that that is a provision that has been in the Act for some time for the payment of the pension prior to the time when it might normally be payable under certain reasons of disability. I mention it only to indicate that it does not mean any new principle insofar as that aspect is concerned. I believe that the provisions generally will be found to be quite acceptable and I look forward to the opportunity of explaining it in detail on second reading. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, might I ask the Minister whether there's retroactive clauses in the Bill in order that some of the very low pensions now being paid may be raised to a more appreciable amount? MR . McLEAN: .••••.•• ••• provided for everything retroactively and whatever the word is in the future, I think, and the answer is "yes." I think we've provided for every conceivable contingency that could arise. MR ." CHAffiMAN: Resolution be adopted. Passed. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted certain resolutions and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR . W.G.MARTIN (St.Matthews): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfield that the report of the committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . HUTTON introduced Bill No.118,

an Act respecting the control of plant pests and plant diseases. MR . McLEAN introduced Bill No.133,

an Act to provide for pensions and disability allow­ ances for teachers. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are .called, it gives me much pleasure to advise the House that word has been received that the Pan-American Games have been awarded to the City of Winnipeg for 1967.

I think that in this instmce the palm should be awarded to His Worship Mayor Steven Juba of the City of Winnipeg who has made this project particularly his own, but I'm bold enough to hope that the attendance of the Minister of Labour at Sao Paulo also helped in the achievement of this very desirable outcome. MR . McLEAN: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I should like to lay on the table of the House a Return to an Order of the House made March 15th, 1963 on the motion of the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks.

In doing so, Madam Speaker, may I point out that this Order related to correspondence concerning the subject of uniformity of curriculum and which required approval of the Ministers of other provinces. All approvals were received with the exception of the Province of Quebec. I spoke to the honourable member and he agreed that it would be satisfactory to file the Order omitting the correspondence with that province. That particular correspondence is of course, identical with the other, insofar as we are concerned and I think the Order is satisfactory. HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Madam Speaker, I wish to lay on the table of the House a Return to an Order of the House No .18, on the motion of the Honourable the Leader of the NDP. MR . LYON: Madam Speaker, I wish to lay on the table of the House, a Return to an Order of the House No.15, dated March 27, 1963 on motion of the HonourablE! Member for April 22nd, 1963 Page 1455

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) •• •• Portage la Prairie. MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Madam Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Some time ago, I believe the Honourable Minister was asked if there was going to be an extension of the trapping season and I was wondering if he could indicate in the near future the answer to this as I have had a representation from people in :Portage over the week-end that were wondering if this would be possible-- to have an extension of a week in the trapping season. HON. CHARLES H.

WITNEY (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Flin Flon): ·.Madam Speaker, the matter was investigated in particular with a question that was given to me by the Honourable Member for Selkirk. They found that the muskrat population in the province · is about 50 percent of what it normillly is. This is apparently because of the fact that we en­ countered considerable low water conditions during the year of 1961.

Furthermore I found that the Game Branch people were very reluctant, particularly in the Netley Marsh area to provide for any extension of the trapping season as they were concerned that over-trapping would affect the brood stocks and in fact that in other years we may not have sufficient brood stocks to carry on the level of trapping which has normally been experienced.

Furthermore, while I'm not fully informed as to the date in your particular area; in the area that was referred to around the Netley Marshes trapping has been continuing up lllitil April the 24th, and in that particular area one of the chiefs who had been in conversation with the Game Branch people and after he had heard the facts asked that any extension for the trapping ·season as far as his band was concerned not be considered.

We further found that at this particular time of the year that as the rats come out of their winter quarters that they are apparently quite belligerent and fight among each other extensively, so that there is damage to the pelt and some of the off icials of the fur trade have indicated to us that this damaged pelt will not be of value to the industry as a whole and that it would be unwise to extend the season.

So for those two reasons; basically that we want to keep the brood stocks intact and secondly, that we don't want to have any deteriorated furs reaching the market, I regret to advise the honourable member that the decision has been against any extension of the trapping season. MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I wonder if I could direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister. I wonder if he could indicate to the House how many more pieces of. legislation which have not yet been introduced may be forthcoming before the completion of the session. MR .

ROBLIN: I have it in mind, Madam Speaker, that there are around 15 new bills to be introduced to the House before the session is over. There are two important bills in that 15 that I should like to mention. One is the Wildlife Bill and the other is the one that was introduced today by my friend the Minister of Education. There is also quite a number of amendments in the Highway Traffic Act. To the best of my recollection those are the three major bills with respect to size that have not been presented to the House as yet.

There are two other important bills in the Ministry of Agriculture and Conservation -- the Farm Credit Bill and a bill on Crop rnsurance. Those are the main bills that are outstanding in the regular course of affairs.. There are, as I say, a dozen or so bills of some importance, but not of what I call first class stature.

I might say that we've had the printers working overtime on Saturday to try and get these bills completed, because all the bills the House will see this session have been sent to the printers and it is a question of prying them loose from the printer, but I think that matter is fairly well in hand. MR. T.P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, arising out of the reference made by the First Minister to further amendments to the Highway Traffic Act, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Utilities. le it the intention of the government to consolidate that Act this year? MR .

LYON: Madam Speaker, not this year, but it will -- I'm thinking in the ordinary course of the revision of statutes, that such a consolidation will undoubtedly be undertaken. MADAM SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No.89. The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Madam Speaker, with the consent of the House, may I have this bill stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Hon­ ourable the Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for St. John's. Page 1456 April 22nd, 1963

MR. SAUL CHERNIACK (St. John's): Madam Speaker, I have had an opportunity on sev­ eral occasions to discuss this bill with the Honourable Member for Selkirk, both before and after he spoke and since I believe that he and I agree about much of what he has said, I will try not to repeat what he said but rather to expand somewhat on it. The Honourable the Attorney­ General in presenting this. Bill to us mentioned that last year when he presented the Bill in its original form, there were' three main purposes in this Act.

The first was to inform purchasers of the cost of interest and other charges; the second was to educate the people as to what to look for in their time purchases; the third was to protect public interest and accommodate practical business operations.

Now Madam Speaker, I think that the Honourable the Attorney­ General mentioned in his address that he was dealing with the minority, really with infractions that took place against public conscience in the minority of cases; that most people who do business in time sales methods are people who have established a practice which is commend­ able, which is fair and proper insofar as their customers are concerned.

But there are a minority of firms which have established a method of doing business where the actual cost of the time sale is concealed or is dealt with in such a way that the customer doesn't really know how much he is paying for the

article and how much he is paying for the privilege of paying for it over a period of time.

Now the Act was not -"-is the word "proclaimed" '--for this last year because apparently diff iculties became apparent only after the Act was passed, and these difficulties, I assume, were difficulties which were posed by the dealers in complaining that they didn't know just how they could fairly present the interest rate -- the percentage rate -- on such a basis that would be non-competitive with different methods or different basis of doing it, and the solution of the government in this case is to eliminate reference to percentage rate and speak in total costs.

Now I would suggest, Madam Speaker, that the amendment does not take care of the original purpose of the Bill, because in order to protect public interest people ought to know just what they are being charged for the privilege of paying over time, and they ought to know it in an understandable fashion which I submit can only be on the basis of an interest rate, because an interest rate if related to a per annum calculation of a known basis is something which is easily understandable.

You might argue that the term, so many dollars, is understandable, but I don't think it is in relation to the cost of the article, and when the Minister spoke of his desire to protect the public interest and accomodate practical business operations I would sug­ gest that those people who sell on time should accommodate their practices in accordance with what this Legislature feels is a fair and reasonable way of acquainting the public and educating the public as to what to look for so that although this Act must not make business difficult to operate because of the imposition it puts on business, on the other hand I think that business must adjust itself to the purposes set out by the Honourable the Attorney-General, in the desire to inform the purchasers, to educate them as to what to look for and to protect the interest of the public.

Now, Madam Speaker, I believe that there are a number of firms that have learned that they can make more money out of the interest charges in the sale than they do profit on the sale itself and in order to interest a potential customer their cash price is often set low and they hope to bring in the customer and when they sell on time that's where they make their money. I often think that really what they are doing is selling time and selling dollars, rather than selling the commodity which the customer really thinks he's buying.

Therefore, I feel that it is important that the customer be made fully aware of what he is paying and the basis on which he is paying. I just point out to you that if a customer buys an

article for say $100.00 and he's told "this will cost you $10. 00 a month for 12 months", . he can calculate that it means $20. 00 extra over and above the $100.00; but I doubt very much if he realizes that the interest rate he is paying is approximately -- well is between 35 and 40 percent per annum on the reducing balance. That's a very frightening interest rate. And yet if he's told, "well it's only $20. 00 over the year", it doesn't sound like much. Furthermore, if the same

article which is sold for $100. 00 is payable at the rate of $15. 00 per month and the total charge is $115. 00, which might be told to the man, he might think, "well if I'm paying $15.00 a month, the cost I 'm paying is $15. 00, it's cheaper than the cost I would have to pay at $10.00 a month which was $20.00." Little does he appreciate, I believe, that if he pays $15.00 as a cost that it relates to about 45 percent per annum interest on the reducing balance. Now 1 these are not April 22nd, 1963 Page 1457

(Mr. Cherniack, cont'd) •••• extreme examples, because $15.00 or $20.00 on a hundred dollar item spaced over eight to twelve months may not seem very much to the customer, but the customer is the man usually who is least able to pay high interest rates and high costs and he is the one who is least likely to·assess the cost to him and to know actually what he is paying for the privilege of buying on time. I would suggest, Madam Speaker, that the Minister who had a year in which to come up with an amendment, did not adequately do his homework.

I do not believe that it is my job to do his homework for him -- and I don't say I did it, nor do I propose to continue to do it -- but I did cause a few inquiries to be made as to how difficult it is to estimate the amount of interest rate paid, and I didn't go very far to discover that actuaries believe that it's easily ascertainable and that it is ascertainable out of tables without too much trouble for anyone. As a matter fact, the Honourable Member for Selkirk, received an

article just after he spoke which I'm sure he would have liked to have had in his hands before he spoke, because it's a very simple chart consisting of two discs which was prepared, I believe, by a credit union organization and from which you can very quickly ascertain both the simple interest rate and the compounded interest rate on the reducing balance and know your figures in a matter of seconds.

Now it seems to me that with that type of calculation it would be a comparatively simple thing for a seller of goods to look up the rates on this chart or any other chart and give both the actual cost -- which is the intention of this amendment -- including all the other charges that are used -- the differ­ ent terms that are used -- to calculate a total cost and relate it back to an interest rate on a reducing balance.

As a matter of fact it is simple arithmetic to calculate a simple interest rate on the original amount and when that is done it is recognized by accountants and actuaries and anybody who deals with interest rates, that roughly, the interest on the reducing balance is roughly almost double what it is on a simple interest rate.

People who travel around this city and keep their eyes out on signs, will often see a sign saying "6% interest" and I guarantee you that in almost every case if you actually calculated it out, you would find that it really means 11.2 or 11.5 percent interest per annum on the reducing balance.

Now, the simplest thing that could be done and I'm not suggesting that it should be, because it can be made a little more concrete, but if it were so difficult to calculate the interest, then by taking the simple interest and stating it and then saying that approximately double this is the interest on the reducing balance, would give a customer a pretty good idea of the interest rate that he is paying.

Now, the reason I stated that I didn't think the honourable Minister had done his home­ work is that he did not indicate to us that he had consulted any actuaries or accountants about this problem and did not indicate to us that tables are available or could be easily prepared to give this kind of information, and I would hope that when this matter is dealt with in Com­ mittee, that there will be persons present, brought by the proper department, to indicate either why it is so difficult to do it, or what I believe is possible, to indicate that it is a corn­ paratively simple thing to do it and to prepare these tables so that they should be in the hands of the people who want to do business on time.

If there is really no solution, no easy way of calculating this, then I would think that the least we could ask of this Act is to require a state­ ment on conditional sales contracts that the interest rate on the reducing balance is not in excess of ''blank" percent per annum, and although this is a loose way of doing it I think at least it would keep the seller conscious of the fact that he must in some way indicate the max­ imum that he is charging in terms of percentage.

Now there was a few other points mentioned by the Honourable Member from Selkirk, which I think bear repeating and which I think should be dealt with in Committee in detail, and that is the privilege of prepayment and rebate of cost. Now, as far as I know, every reputable firm that deals in conditional sales contracts do give a rebate. As far as I know, they are not required to in any contract that I have read. These are contracts they themselves prepared. The Honourable Member from Selkirk did mention some of the terms of these contracts.

They do not provide that there shall be a rebate for prepayment, but most reputable firms do give a rebate and they calculate it on a rule, whose name I know, but whose method I do not -- but it is called the "Rule of the Seventy-Eight" and it's a calculation used by accountants in com­ puting the total of the number of the months in a year, doubling up each month, the total comes to seventy-eight, and in some simple way they can calculate the amount of a rebate to be given on the first, second, fourth, tenth month in the course of a repayment agreement. This Page 1458 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Cherniack, cont'd) •••• is something that is done; I know it can be done and I would sug­ gest to the House that it ought to be done and that people should not find that if they have the opportunity to repay, because they are in funds, they should not be required to continue to make payments at high rates of interest with money sitting in the bank.

So that I believe that they ought to have the prepayment privilege and the privilege of rebating -- and incidentally, this rule of the Seventy-Eight's I believe, weighs the amounts in such a way so that if prepayment comes very quickly, the return to the lender or vendor is somewhat greater because of his cost of setting up the. loan on his books. Finally, I would like to repeat what the Honourable Member for Selkirk said in terms of "relief against acceleration".

He explained it simply, that if you default in your payment the person who owns that contract can declare the full amount due and payable forthwith and there is nothing to say that you're coming in and making the payment that was in default, plus int­ erest on it, will re-establish your contract. Under the terms of the contract, once you make defa ult, then the full amount can be claimed with all the accumulated but unearned interest can be claimed.

Few people do it, but those who do it create incredible harm to the persons who buy, because so seldom can they raise all this money to repay a debt whose due date has been forced on them so quickly. The principle of relief against acceleration and relief against forfeiture has been established in the Law and is not a revolutionary thing at all.

The Hon­ ourable Member for Selkirk gave an analogy in other cases and I would suggest that if it is proper to protect the owner of real property who .has a mortgage against acceleration and forfeiture, it is equally proper in this time -- when time sales have become very common it is equally proper for us to proteet the buyers who would come under the sa...>ne circumstances as would those owners of real property.

So that I would urge this House and the Committee which will deal with this, search very carefully for the original concept which the Honourable Attorney-General mentioned a year ago, and that is to reveal the interest rate to search out to satisfy itself that it cannot be done, because that is the suggestion in this amendment. I suggest it can be done. I suggest that the Committee should investigate closely and find out from those that know whether or not it can be done and then say so in the Act, and also provide for prepayment and rebate and for relief against acceleration and forfeiture.

Madam Speaker put the question. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, if no one else wishes to speak, I will close the debate at the present time with a few remarks, particularly in response to the statements just made by the Honourable Member for St.John's. I think there's an old axiom that "all of life is education in itself" and as I sat listening to the Honourable Member for St.

John's this afternoon, I thought to approximately that period of a year ago, when I was speaking on this Bill and when a number of members of this House were speaking upon the Bill, and based upon the knowledge that we had at that time, I think most of us at that time would have agreed, in a general way at least, with what the honourable member said this afternoon.

But as I said, Madam Speaker, "all life in itself is a period of education" and I've received some education in the past year and I suggest that if my honourable friend had been sitting in the House last year and had had the opportunity as Iknow the Honourable Member for Selkirk and a few others have of considering this matter over that period he might perhaps not come to the exact position that he does today. Because I tell him in all sincerity that really there is no difference in the outlook or the view­ point of the government with respect to this Bill -- no difference at all from his outlook and viewpoint.

The fact is that we are trying by virtue of these amendments to remedy a situation which was passed by the Legislature last year and which, on reflection, and after very serious consideration we find is impractical in some respects, and not only that but even worse, could result if the bill were left in its present form. could result in abuses springing up under this legislation which none of us in this House would wish to take place.

If I may say so I think my honourable friend has overlooked, or perhaps disregarded what I did say in my opening remarks on the second reading of the Bill; namely that one of the basic problems in consideration of this matter is to determine what is interest. Interest and finance charges are two expressions that we bandy about quite freely and with some gay abandon from time to time. But really what are they? Because commercial people, those in the mer­ cantile world will tell you that they sometimes are unable to draw the line be.tween the actual April 22nd, 1963 Page 1459

(Mr. Lyon: cont'd) •.•• interest they charge or the finance or carrying charge that they impose for the administrative problems that result from time-sale agreements. And they can say "yes", we can come up with an interest figure; we can come up with a figure that we think is interest, but at the same time there will be a finance charge here." Another company can come up and say, "Yes, our interest figure is, say, 5 percent, or 7 percent." And yet the two com­ panies could be selling precisely the same

article at exactly the same total cost to the consumer, and yet you would have a situation, and quite a lawful situation, and one where no misrepresent­ ation was intended at all, but where the two vendors, the two sellers of the

article would be quoting a diff erent interest rate on the sale of this article, even though the ultimate cost to the consumer was exactly the same in both cases. Now this may not be a bad thing, says my hon­ ourable friend, but I suggest that we are spawning, or we would be opening ourselves to the spawning of a type of competition in the quotation of inte;rest rates which certainly would be of no benefit to the public whatsoever. It would be extremely contrary to the public interest if this type of thing were to be done .

Now,hence we have tried to come up with an alternative approach to the legislation, keep­ ing in mind all the time, as I'm sure my honourable friend will, that in attempting to deal with a rate of interest, even when you mention rate of interest you must chart a legal course between the shoals of the intra vires or ultra vires of the legislation that you are proposing to the House.

The constitutional question here is an extremely grave one I'm afraid and I'm sure if my honourable friend will take a look at some of the recent .decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada he will be impressed .with the type of problem that the drafters of the legislation have had in mind coming up with the amendment that we have before us now.

I refer him 1n particular to the case which was in the Supreme Court of Canada only two months ago in re "The Unconscionable Transactions Relief Act of Ontario" which was a statute wherein the Province of Ontario attempted, as they thought, within their jurisdiction, to pro­ hibit the type of unconscionable transaction that was taking place, I believe it was in the second mortgage field in Ontario.

And they were told by the Ontario Court of Pppeal and by the Supreme Court I believe unanimous, in both cases, that careful as they had been, or as they thought they had been in the drafting of the legislation, the legislation itself was ultra vires the powers of the Province of Ontario, and they didn't do much more in terms of mentioning the rate of int­ erest, or they tried to steer by this shoal as neatly as they could, but they floundered off. And so while this question has not been mentioned in the debate this year, I know it was last year, I commend .that pa:rticular consideration to my honourable friend.

Being a lawyer I. know he will be cognizant of the fact that there is a serious constitutional problem and it's not just as easy as it might appear at face value, or at first blush, in order to get around and to do what you're attempting to do.

Now, as an example, however, he says, "Why don't we say in the contract, something loose like this: 'that the rate of interest charge is not more than a certain percentage each month, or whatever the period the rate is provided for.' " Well, I suggest, Madam Speaker, that the minute we try to do that we would flounder ourselves upon the same rock that has caused the trouble in Ontario, the rock of the constitutionality of the whole proceeding>. I can refer him, although I don't necessarily defer to this opinion, I can refer him to an

article which appeared, I believe, only a week ago in the New .hurnal of the Manitoba Law School in which one of the writers in that journal saw fit to disagree with the Legislature of Manitoba and to tell us that the Act as at presently it stands unamended is ultra vires the powers of the pro­ vince. Now I don't ask that my case stand or fall on that problem but I do commend this matter to his consideration because certainly it is one matter that we have had to be very careful about in drafting the legislation that is before us.

Now, he states the general proposition that business should ac.commodate its practices to legislation laid down by the Legislature. I don't think anyone will seriously argue with him about that proposition. I don't think it is the intention of this amending bill that is before the House at the present time to necessarily lighten the load on business at the expense of the public interest. That is not the case at all.

Rather the attempt of this bill is to build that protection around the consuming public which cannot be utilized in some other way by that minority group of the mercantile field who are willing to misrepresent their actual finance charges and their interest charges to the public. So we're trying to build this wall of Page 14eyo April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Lyon , cont'd) .•.• protection around the consumer, without at the same time imposing upon the mercantile field conditions which will be unreasonable having regard to the frequency and the volume of these transactions in that field. So I wouldn't want anyone in the House to be left with the impression that the B ill that is befo:re. us now has any prime purpose other than that stated originally; namely, the protection of the public interest. I believe there were one or two other. points that he mentioned that can be dealt with in Committee.

I certainly appreciate the comments by the Honourable Member for Selkirk and can tell him that we are, and will be looking at the suggestions that be has made with respect to accelerated payments, and with respect to rebates, or refmds, under time-sale agreements. It was not our intention in the original drafting of this Act to get into this very related field, but nonetheless newer venture of attempting to lay down what exactly would be in the contract, because of course, whether or not there is a rebate, is a matter of contract between the vendor and the purchaser.

But as he quite correctly points out, other parliaments have seen fit to intervene themselves into what is ordinarly thought to be a matter of contractual relationship between vendor and purchaser . if it was .felt that the intervention was necessary to protect the purchaser. So we are taking a look at that but I can make no categorical statement at this time as to whether or not these suggestions would be acceptable at this time.

I appreciate, however, the constructive nature of the criticisms and comments that have been made with respect to the bill and certainly when it goes to Law Amendments Committee we can look forward to hearing any representations that may be made by, or on behalf of any parties who are interested in the amendment or in the original bill as it was passed. I close by saying that I do not intend at Law Amendments to parade a series of actuaries before the Committee.

I tell my honourable friend that I received only this morning that very interesting little wheel with the two rates of interest, the simple and the compound interest on it. I remind him that there are seven, at least seven different ways of computing interest known to the actuaries; I have tables which account for, I think, three or four or five of the different ways, and each one of the tables shows figures that with respect to figures given .in other tables are slightly different.

So he can see exactly what I'm getting at when I tell him that there are ways, enumerable ways of computing interest, and the whole purpose and substance of this legislation is to bring home to the purchaser in the truest way that we can, and in the truest sense as we have found from .our own consideration, the truest sense that we can the cost of the time-sale agreement to him, that is, by expressing that cost in dollars and cents.

You can argue about five percent or s_even percent; whether it's compounded; whether it's simple interest; whether it's on a declining balance and so on, and you can get into a series of per­ mutations and combinations that would drive any actuary out of his mind, but you can't argue with dollars and cents.

If you're told that a contract is going to cost you $20.00 for the priv­ ilege of buying it on time-sale and that the purchase price is $100.00, it's really immaterial to you m a sense as to how the vendor computes the rate, because you're not going to be paying him the rate, you're going to be paying him the $20.00, and it doesn't matter how he tries to manoeuvre or misrepresent $20.00, $20.00 remains $20.00. There's only one way of comput­ ing it; that's by adding up the dollars and the ce nts and coming to that figure.

And. so we feel that by putting a re-emphasis in the Act upon the dollars and cents value of interest and finance charges, that we are serving the public interests in the best way that this Legislature can, remembering of course, that we are all human , subject to all human foibles, and that nothing we do in this Chamber, nothing is probably going to be perfect. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. PAULLEY: Yeas and Nays, please, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members. The motion before the House, second reading of Bill No. 58,

an Act to amend the Time­ Sale Agreement Act. A standing vote was taken, the ra.sults being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Alexander, Beard, Bilton, Campbell, Carroll, Cowan, Desjardins, Evans, Groves, Guttormson, Hamilton, Harrison, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk,Hutton, Jeannotte, Johnson, Johnston, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McDonald, MeGregor, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Moeller, Mills, Patrick, Roblin, Seaborn, Shoemaker, Smellie, Smerchanski, Stanes, Steinkopf, Strickland, Tanchak, Vielfaure, Weir, Witney and Mrs. Morrison, April 22nd, 1963 Page 1461

NAYS: Messrs: Cherniack, Froese, Gray, Harris, Paulley, Peters, Wright. MR. CLERK: Yeas: 42; Nays: 7. Madam Speaker declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 88, The Honourable the Minister of Ind­ ustry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Madam Speaker; I would request the indulgence of the House to allow this item to stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. HON. ROBERT SMELLIE (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle-Russell) presented Bill No.106,

an Act to amend The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act (1) for second reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. SMELLIE: Madam Speaker, this amendment removes a

section from The Metro­ politan Winnipeg Act that will no longer be necessary because of the amendments to the Mun­ icipal Act •. Last year there was an amendment made to the

section of The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act concerning assessments, to make it clear that neither the Corporation nor the Director of Assessments was responsible for the preparation of local improvement charges but the amend­ ment didn't amend the definition of assessment in The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act and this will be looked after by this amendiDent.

The remaining part of this Bill is to clear up the present Act; there has been some question as to whether or not persons are liable for business tax -- the matter has come before the courts; some people from the City of Transcona appealed to the Court of Queen's Bench. While the court ruled against their application the court did criticize the construction of

Section 66 of the Act. This amendment would clear up the construction of that particular section; and the last part here would make it clear that it was not intended by The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act to freeze all assessments -- not assessments -- to freeze the tax picture as it was before the incorporation of Metropolitan Winnipeg, that the municipalit1es were still free to amend by their own by-laws the provisions, particularly dealing with bus­ iness tax assessment. It has been argued for example that

Section 72 of The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act could be subject to a rigid

interpretation by the courts and any amending by-law introduced by the municipalities concerning business tax would be ruled invalid by the courts if this

interpretation was placed on the present section. It was felt desirable as some of the municipalities do now wish to make such changes, to make it clear that

Section 72 wasn't intended to have that rigidity. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. M cLEAN presented Bill No. 93,

an Act to amend The Public Libraries Act for second reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, there are just one or two things in this Bill as the matter of the principles involved. The trustees of the Manitoba Libraries -- they have an association of library trustees -- suggested some time ago that it would be helpful if the pro­ visions in the Act could be altered to permit larger boards, both with respect to municipal and regional libraries.

This request is incorporated in the provisions of this bill which indicate the possibility of increased membership on the boards of either a regional or a municipal library is permissive, I point out, depending upon the wishes of the councils concerned. There is an alteration of a word; there is a provision in the present act which allows the members of the Library Board to remove an employee. I had always thought that that must surely mean dismiss the employee if that was their wish.

Apparently however this matter has come under some dispute and so it was suggested and we have incorporated in this bill to substitute the word "dismiss" for the word "remove". It still comes out at the same conclusion as far as I'm aware.

The principle change or rather the principle sections here which deal· with matters of substance in this bill are provisions which would permit the merger of two regional libraries or the merger of a municipal library and a regional library and the members of the House will note that the general procedure is that upon resolutions being passed -- yes, resolutions being passed by the board of directors of two or more regional libraries or a municipal library and a regional library -- the municipal councils concerned may -- and I emphasize the word "may"-­ may in effect take the steps which would have the effect of merging two existing regional Page 1462 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. McLean, cont'd). .. . libraries or have the effect of merging a municipal library with a regional library. I should say that this is a matter which is of some interest and concern to people who are directly associated with the work of libraries, many of whom feel that we might be better served by having larger libraries.

I note however, or point out for the benefit or the information of the members of the House, that the legislation that would permit this is permissible only and in the final analysis is dependent upon the decisions made by the councils of the municipal corporations who are members of the respective libraries that might become involved in such a move. I think perhaps there are places in Manitoba where the merger of two existing libraries might be usefully carried forward and perhaps other instances where it would not be advisable in the public interest.

This legislation would only permit it if all of the conditions -- necessary conditions -- were satisfied. I would point out that this of course does not apply to libraries other than those which are established under the provisions of the Public Libraries Act. We do have in Manitoba, I think, altogether three libraries which are established outside the ambit of the Public Libraries Act and which would not be in any way involved in this legislation • Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried • • , ••••• Continued on next page. April 22nd, 1963 Page 1463

MR. BOBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Welfare that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into a commit­ tee to c_onsider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam .Speaker presented the motion. MB. LAUBENT DESJABDINS (St. Boniface ): ..... Speaking on this motton, I wish to bring in an iiilportant matter -- The unfini shed busine ss of a Boyal Commission's repor t. I am re ferr ing to

Chapter XI of the Be port of the Boyal Commission on Education, and this chap­ ter, as we well know, deals with public aid to private schools. In view of the fact that I con­ sider this so important, Madam Speaker, and that I have certain quotations to make, I intend to follow my notes rather closely .and I hope that this will be acce ptable to you. I have learned that while speaking on this subject two differe nt points should be discussed separately; one point is the principle involved in state aid for private schools.

It is in studying this point es ­ pecially that we should be tolerant and free of all prejudice . Our main approach to the subject should not be as a protestant, catholic or jews; as liberal, conservative, NDP or Social Credit; as Christian or atheist, but rather as free man living in a free world and belie ving in the free­ dom of the individual. Then, of course, there is a second point: the lack of leadership of a gover nment who has receiv ed the unanimous report from a Boyal Commision, four years ago, and has yet to act on its reco mmend ation.

It is important, not only for the members of this House, but most­ ly for the re porters that I give the following explanation at this time, and I think these gentle ­ men of the press and radio should set the reco rds straight. In the past, the im pression has been left with many that I was bitterly opposed to all those who did not agree with me. This is completely false; I have always recognized the right of ev eryone to make up his or her own mind.

But it is true that I've had little patience and that I've criticized those who duty it is to decide on way or another -- but to decide -- and have delayed, while thousands of Manitobans wait for the promised decision. On the question of principle, I have elaborated in the past on the reason why I favour aid to private schools. Those who are interested can read the speech I mada in this House on February 21st, of 1961; it can be found on page 129 of the 1961 Hansard. I will not take the time of this House to re peat everything I said, but I would like to touch on a few points.

I know that private schools include schools of all denominations. I certainly recognize this fact, but as I am more familiar with Catholic schools and since many oppose state aid because of the Catholic Church and also in view of the fact that catholic parents usually feel morally obli­ gated to send their childre n to catholic schools, I will refer mostly to the Catholic parochial schools and the ten thousand or so childre n attendi ng them. But again, let me repeat, that I certainly do not limit parochial schools to people of any religion. As I have said in the past, I believe that ev ery man is born free.

That freedom is his right; not a constitutional right, Madam Speaker, but a God given right; a right that comes from natural law. He does not owe this gift to the state, but to the Creator, and the state is duty bound to protect this right. Now if every man has a right to freedom , it should not be a freedom in theory only, which in this case would be useless, but it should be a right to practi­ cal freedom. I do not intend to argue at this time that catholics are right or wron g in want ing a certain kind of education for their children, in feeling morally obligated to give them this kind of ed ucation.

I say to you, Madam Speaker, that we think that we are right; you might be­ live that we are fools for thinking this, but this will not change the dictates of our conscience . We are not de manding that you agree with us; we simply ask that you respect our freedom to choose for ourselves the kind of edu cation we feel is best for our children, just as you wish, I'm sure, that we respect your choice. This is not a privilege that we want. It is not a privi­ lege ei ther that you want, that you desire ; it is our right. These rights belong to those of a majority and also to those of a minority.

This freedom should be respected as long as it doesn't threaten the freedom and the rights of others. It is as simple as that. For, if in our separate schools, our childre n are not taught to be good Canadians; if the teaching they receiv e is instrumental in hurt ing society, well why are these schools allowe d to be opened? Madam Speaker, I say to the members of this House, you are the lawmakers, let us not be hypocrite; if this is the case, close these schools; they are either harmful or they are not, but they must be one or the other. Page 1464 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Desjardins , cont'd. ) I still feel ! was right a few years ago when I classified those opposing state aid to pri­ vate schools in the following category: First, there were those who are bigoted. Those who are prejudiced, mainly against the catholic church; those who do not even want to look into this matter, but would sooner oppress a minority -- for those I have no contempt, op.ly pity, because I feel that they are sick.

Then there's the second category; those who are trying very hard not to be guided by their prejudices, although at times they find it difficult; those who are sincere , who are trying to be fair; either they are not familiar enough with all sides of this question or they haven't been success ful in eradicating all prejudices. They. might have been brought up to fear the catholic church, but these people are fundamentally hone st. I pray for thero; by co­ operating with them I'm s.ure that we will help them see that our cause is just.

It is true that at times the catholic church has been a little too dictatorial; has lacked understanding; but this is changing, especially since His Holiness, Pope John xxm has invited members of other churches to his council. Now, more than ever there is movement for all Chris tianity to live and let live.

Madam Speaker, I have much hope for the members of this category, Then, there is the last category, those who believe that some help should be granted to private schools, who believe in the right of this imposing minority, but who will not admit or do anything about it because of public opinion; because of political and financial fear . In this group we will find many businessmen, but most ly politicians .

I have never had too much pa­ tience or respect for this group because I feel that they know better, and especially with the politicians who are the lawmakers and should show more courage once they have accepted their responsibility; they should remember their oath of office. Madam Speaker, are you wasting your time every day when you open each Sessi on by leading us in prayer? How can we repeat this prayer daily asking God to help us make equitable laws, if we do not mean this; if we haven't the courage to follow the dictates of our conscien ce.

In the past, I have criticized the Premier and his government for lack of leadership in this mat­ ter. Madam Speaker, I've. done this sincerely; I've done this as a member of the opposition; I've done this as an elected representative of the people of St. Boniface; I've done this as a me mber of a minority group most affected; I've done this as a member of the Roman Catholic Church. I felt that I have co-operated in this; I tried to be fair with the government and give them ample time to decide.

It was not until last season really, that I started criticizing the government, and what I criticized was always the lack of leadership. Let me turn back to May 15th, 1957 , when under a Liberal Government the Royal Com­ mission on Education was set up. This Com mission was told to study everything and anything pertaining to education. At the following provincial election a Conserv ative Government -- and I mention Conserv ative or Libe ral to show that they are in this as much one as the other -- a Cons ervative Government was elected.

One of its first acts was to ask the Royal Commissi on on Education, that was then sitting, not to wait until the who le report was co mplete, but instead to deal first with the financial and school district organizational part of the study and report on it as soon as possible. This the Commis sion did with amazing speed and submitted an interim report with its recom mendation for secon dary school divisions and teacher grants . This inter­ im report was released in August of 1958.

Following up quickly the government which had come to office only on July 1st of that year called a special Session of the Legislature that fall to get authority for enac ting the Legislation to put into effect, the recom mendation of secondary divi­ sions and teacher grants . This was fast work . . It was not until ay ear later that the Royal Com­ mission brought down its final report, the part dealing amongst other things with public aid to private and parochial schoo ls. The final report was released on Dece mber 1st, 1959.

I must emphasize at this point that the report was a unanimous one -- a unanimous recomm endation. The newspapers had much to say and were instrume ntal to a great degree in forming public opinion. The Free Press :was most unfair and we might say, fanatically opposed to state aid. The Tribune treated the subject with much more charity and fairness, but it never actually came out for or against the recomm endation. All eyes were then turned to the Provincial Government; many rumours leaked out. I received some inform ation from reliable people and even from some Cabinet Ministers. Unofficially of course , Mr.

Roblin himself had promised leaders of the Catholic Church that if they helped him pave the way to put into force some of the recommen dations that came out of the interim report his government in turn .would grant aid to April 22nd, 1963 Page 1465

I,, � � '• ' (Mr. Desjardins, cont'd. ) .•• private schools ; if of course, this was the recommendation of the Royal Commission; especially if the report was a unanimous one. MR. ROBLIN: .•••• refute the Honourable Member's statement. It is not accurate. MR. DESJARDINS: Well if the Honourable Leader wants to public al_ly deny this, that is fine with me . Madam Speaker, I am sure that the Premier himself is in favour of granting this aid. Two Cabinet Ministers now sitting in the front seats told me that the Cabinet was in favour of granting such help.

It was felt that the government would bring in something in 1961, but ap­ parently it was at this. time that a few members of the government -- the government caucus -­ were opposed and threatened to resign from the caucus if this was done. In the meantime, most of the Catholic clergy believed in the government ..• MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I must also correct the last statement about the govern­ ment caucus. It is not correct. MR. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, as I said before, this is information that I've re­ ceived from cabinet ministers and from a reliable source .

This is as far as I can go; this is as far as I can say. MR. ROBLIN: . . . . stated, it is not correct. MR. DESJARDINS: All right. Before the 1960 Session, the Free Press had this bit of information. "Manitoba's education costs have risen so high in the las t year, that the Provin­ cial Government will delay action on the Royal Commission Report until 1961. It was learnt today, a government spokesman said, 'the cost of education forecast by the experts for the coming year have gone completely haywire and far in excess of the absolute lll aximum predic­ ted by departmental officials.

So severe is the increase that the department wants more time than the six weeks remaining between now and the Session of the .Legislature to estimate the cost involved in the new report released last week' . On January 26th, 1960, on the CBC radio program entitled "Legislature in Review", Mr. Roblin made these statements: "The govern­ ment will take a stand as a government on the private school question. " He expected the Lib­ erals to take a stand as a party.

When asked what his personal position was, he replied: "As Premier, I could have no private opinion, my opinion would be assumed to be that of the govern­ ment. I must tell you frankly that the government is not prepared at this time to state its policy on this matter. We recognize our responsibility to do so and that is what we will do in due course." He was then asked if he agreed with Mr. Campbell's ,-- the then Leader of the Opposition -- Mr.

Campbell 's contention that the government could not deal with the matter as a private vote." We have no wish to shirk our responsibility, but I would add that the same re­ sponsibility holds good for the other political parties as wel l. " Then came the 1960 Session and in The Throne Speech Mr. Roblin only repeated that the government policies would be announced in due course; but it wasn't prepared to do anything at the moment. Nothing was said by any member of the opposition, or any member in the House, nothing was done to embarrass the government or Mr.

Roblin, personally; everyone began to look forward with optimism to the 1961 Session. No doubt, that Mr. Roblin, and his govern­ ment as well as all members did much soul-se arching during the recess. In May of 1960 , a woman working for a Toronto firm, which in turn was working for the Provincial Government, was making a survey in St. Boniface on public opinion on a variety of matters including tl).e private school grant question. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, the statement is not accui"ate. MR.

DESJARDINS: At least six of the questions refer to the question of provincial grants to private schools which one could intimate in two instances as specifically Roman Cath­ olic . The government did deny this but with not too much conviction at the time. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I've denied it now and I wish that fact to be recorded. MR. DESJARDINS: Fine, this is what I want. Maybe we'll get the story straight once and for all. . • • . -- (Interjection) -- I beg your pardon? -- (Interjection) -- Madam Speak­ er, is this allow ed? Is this allow ed? MADAM SPEAKER: Will the honourable member continue, please .

MR. DESJARDINS: I don't know who's in the gutter. Before the 1961 Session I person­ ally felt that the government should be given another chance, but that I should be ready with a motion in case nothing was done. I prepared one, and it was my intention to wait and see if there was any mention in the Throne Speech. If so, I would forget my motion. If not, I would Page 1466 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Desjardins , cont'd .. ) ; •. immediately turn over my copy of the resolution to the Clerk of the House. A day or so before the opening of the Session 1 received confidential information that the government would not do anything at this time. 1 was also informed -- this might be denied again -- but 1 was also . informed that the .Premier suspecting that someone might bring in a motion had threatened to move a referendum to my move as an amendment. Because of the emotional nature of this matter, . . . . MR. ROBLIN: Madam Chairman, 1 have not made any threats in connection with this matter. MR.

DESJARDINS: Well, we may call it another name, but apparently this is what happened. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Chairman, my honourable friend is obliged to accept my state­ ment. 1 made no threats in this respect of this matter. · MR. DESJARDINS: I'm also expecting the information that 1 have received, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member should accept the word of the First Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: That he made no threats ? All right, that he suggested then that there would be a referendum if a motion was brought in.

Now, because of the emotional nature of this matter, because so many people do not understand the problem, and especially because of the stand taken by the daily papers, 1 felt that" to bring in a motion at this time 1 could only hurt the cause that 1 was trying so much to help. During the 1961 Session, Mr. Campbell, who was then Leader of the Opposition, in his reply to the Throne Speech charged the govern­ ment with dereliction of duty for its failure to state its policy on aid to private and parochial schools , After all, in 1960 the government had said that it would announce its policy in due course. Mr.

Prefontaine and myself -- the Member for Carillon and myself-- made speeches advocating state aid. We asked questions of the First Minister and the Minister of Education. The Leader of the Social Credit Party went on record as favouring state aid, but the govern­ ment refused to answer most of the questions. After the Session the Liberals held a leader­ ship convention. The question came into the open.

Some members of the Party wanted the Liberals to go on record as favouring or being against state aid. 1, for one, opposed this. 1 felt that no party should take a stand and that this should be above partisan politics. If not, it would be detrimental to all Manitobans if those favouring aid should line up in the one party, and those opposing in the other party. I felt that although it was a difficult thing to do, those who had accepted the responsibility to govern this province should do something about a unani­ mous report of a Royal Commission.

The government had promised several times to act but it did nothing. This is one of the many reasons why I'm always accusing the Premier and his government of lack of leadership. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, .. .•.. my honourable friend is wrong again. We made no promises of the kind he suggests. MR. DESJARDINS: The government had made that promise several times to act but did nothing. In the Throne Speech the government said that it will act in due course. And this -- I will not accept that explanation, Madam Speaker.

I will get the Throne Speech if you wish and I will read it that the government promised to act in due course. MR. ROBLIN: It said that policy would be announced in due course , and it was. MR. DESJARDINS: What was the policy? You're the only one that would know, Madam Speaker. MR. ROBLIN: You were here. MR. DESJARDINS: That's right. I never heard any policy. Then came the 1962 Ses­ sion which followed the same pattern as the 1961 Session -- still nothing.

Now just before this last election that we've just had, I won't say the government -- it will be denied -- but some members of the government tried to give the impression that it wanted to help the Catholics so very much, and we know of some of the things that happened just a day or so before the election. But, Madam Speaker, the people of Manitoba understand the privilege of democracy. We know our rights, and we don't believe that we should sell ourselves. A few days ago the Honourable Member for St. Vital said the Member for St. Boniface was a bit chicken. My first reaction was to laugh it off.

This was indeed a joke and surely all April 22nd, 1963 Page 1467

(Mr. Desjardins, cont'd. ) . • • the members of this House know it. After all I was a tough guy in this House; I would be remembered as the unpolished rookie, who liked to mix it up in verbal battles with the giants of this Chamber, such as the Premier, the Attorney-General; the Minister .of Education and the Leader of the NDP. Everyone knew that I was fearless in this House, in caucus, everywhere . For all that I cannot forget this accusation. "You are chicken' the honourable member had said, "if you feel that McDonald and Cartier would not be satisfied with the last hundred years since Confederation.

Tell us why. You say that we must admit our prejudices, recognize them before getting rid of them", he continued. "Well go ahead; why · ·d on't you ?" Madam Speaker, the honourable member is right; I realize that I have been chic­ ken. Oh it is true that I often speak out against injustice , what I consider injustice , but too often, I also,. with my hand on the safety catch. I do believe what I say, but too often I feel that I must apologize for feeling as I do.

I live in constant fear of not being understood; of being branded a "do-gooder ;" of being considered a fanatic; a despised man like Governor Faubus; and when I read about men such as Judge Wright, and many other federal judges in the States saddled with civil rights burdens; southerners whose personal emotions ran contrary to what their consciences dictated them to do; men who acted at great sacrifices of friendship and poli­ tical hope; and who collectively launched one of the great orderly offences in legal history -­ when I read about such men I'm filled with emotion and admiration, and I want to follow their footsteps, Madam Speaker, but I also do not like to be criticized and I want so much to be pop­ ular with everyone.

Yes, Madam Speaker, I talk big in this House . I accused members of lacking courage when I wasn't any better. I've been afraid to let the public know, for instance, that I was fina­ cially interested in business, in a predominantly Protestant St. James . I, too, have been afraid of my convictions and I did not give credit to others for respecting a man of principle. You see, Madam Speaker, I pointed an accusing finger at the Premier and others when I had no more courage than they. The only difference was that politics did not mean as much to me as it did to them.

I did not realize it at the time -- one of the reasons probably being the fact that my political star was somewhat dimmer than theirs; that my political !uture was somewhat less promising. I sincerely thank the Honourable Member for St. Vital who was instrumental in my taking this long look at myselt, and if it's not too late I wish to let my hair down; to make an­ other appeal to each and every member of this House to forget the past; to look into the future; to remember our oath of office; to bring in equitable laws that will relieve an oppressed minor­ ity.

Let me say, Madam Speaker, that I do not intend to be partisan when speaking on this. Let me say that I went as far as to offer to resign my seat in this House if it was felt that it would help this cause. Then, during the last Sess ion I thought that the government might be more inclined to look favourably upon a motion from me if I was not a Member of the Liberal caucus . It was then that I thought of becoming an Independent, Madam Speaker.

I had most of my speech prepared for that occasion when with the help of some independent advisers I reali­ zed that it would serve little purpose; it would not help the cause. Madam Speaker, this is indeed an important matter because a great injustice is allow­ ed to exist.

Again I repeat that I realize how difficult the position the Premier is in, part of it through his own fault, but I say to. him that if he doesn •t want history to forget the good work he has done in this province , only to remember his lack of courage in difficult moments , if he wants to be able to look at his son that he loves so much without being reminded of other sons and of other fathers , it is true that he could probably be present in this position as he said for many years to come. It is also true of Governor Faubus . Is he contented with this? It seems to me that he was given too much talent for this.

There is a good chance that he might be asked to serve his fellow man in a more important position. Should his lack of courage rob the Cana­ dians of his services, place him in a position where he could not be accepted because he would not be one who could direct Canada to the real meaning of Confederation that it needs so much at this present stage. Madam Speaker , this man hasn't the right to allow himself this one weakness. His energies, intelligence, belong to all the people of Canada. Rather he should look to the leadership of another Conservative Premier, the Honourable Mr.

Robarts of Ont­ ario, who is not shirking his res-ponsibility, even if he faces the same problem. Let him take courage from the fact that things are changing; that most people understand much better now. The Minister of Education is another one who should not mar his record by keeping his Page 1468 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Desjardins, cont•d. ) ••• eyes and his heart closed to a minority. Let him mean it when he says that there are no second-class citizens. How can he talk about the classrooms, the schools that he has built, that his government has built, the millions spent on teacher grants, on books, when there isn't a cent spent for a certain minority group? The two Minis­ ters who told me confidentially that they are in favour of correcting this injustice, .let them al­ so do their duty in caucus, Madam Speaker. The Honourable Member for St.

Matthews, who has .much experience, who only a few weeks ago ta].ked about seeking freedom and security in this western world, talked about a fair deal and square play for the young, for the aged, who said that his government stood for a square deal and fair play for all the people in every walk of life -- let him help his government bring in a square deal and fair pla y to everyone, even though it might emb arrass him in some circles. Many members such as the Member for St. Vital, Wellington, Brandon, Morris , often speak about justice . I challenge them to show by their action that they mean it.

The Member from Kildonan might very well ask himself why providence allowed him to squeak through the last election. Could it be that as a memb er of this oppressed minority he has an important role to play in the Conservative caucus? Let me ask the three members who belong to the Jewish faith to ask themsel ves if they are sincere when they speak of discrimi nation? Do they themselv es , do the members of their minority deserve to be accepted as first class citizens if they help to oppress another minor­ ity? I would like them to think about this very sincerely, Madam Speaker.

The Leader of the NDP, the Honourable Member from Elmwood, the Honourable Mem­ ber from Logan and the others of that group, who like to classify themselves as friends of the underprivileged, have an opportunity for one to be instrumental in helping people who are treated unjustly. No, Madam Speaker, I will not forget the members of our group. Our Leader is on the same hot seat as the Premi er of this province. He also must co-operate and help to bring in fair legislation.

The Honourable Mem ber from Selkirk for whom I've al­ ways had the greatest respect, a man noted in this House for his fairness , his compassion for under-privileged children, I beg of him to look into this question without prejudice so that he might help, through his prestige. The fine new members of our caucus and other new mem­ bers of this House have an advantage, Madam Speaker; they do not have to forget the past but only to look at the future. Let them start their years in politics on a good note. Madam Speaker, this state of affairs cannot continue to exist to the shame of Manitoba.

I wish to give the Members of this House, especially the government and the Premier, another last chance to do what is right.

This is the reason why I haven't brought in a resolution dur­ ing this sessi on, but Madam Speaker -- and I am speaking as a true Independent at this mo­ ment -- I wish to serve notice to the Premier, the Minister of Education, the members of the government, to all members of the opposition including the members of my own caucus, .that next year if I'm still a member of this House I expect to see reference to this problem in the Throne Speech, or I will bring in a resolution som ewhat along the lines of this resolution; "Whereas separate schools are permissi ble in this province; and

whereas the financial hard­ ship to these schools has been made much greater by the impleme ntation of the increased grants to other school divisions and teachers; and

whereas the teachers teaching in these schools as well as students attending these schools should receive the same advantage now given other teachers and students of the province; Therefore

be it resolved that this govern­ ment consider the advisability of: 1. Making teacher grants available to all teachers of the province. 2. Am ending The Public Schools Act so that all teachers could then join the M. T. s. and therefore qualify for all normal benefits. 3. Making all fringe benefits such as free textbook, transportation to and from school, etcetera, available to all students of Manitoba. I think that this should come, and I think that this would be fair, even if we don't get all what has been recomme nded by the Royal Com mission.

I hope, Madam Speaker, that this notice will serve to give the members of this House a chance to look at this problem in a sin­ cere and unpartisan way, and not only as a chance to prepare a motion or amendment that will be mea ningless, that will be purely political, .purely the same thing. Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the Leader of my Party and all the p1embers of the· April 22nd, 1963 Page 1469

(Mr. Desjardins, cont1d. ) . . . Liberal caucus that this is the reason why I did not give them ii.!lvance notice of this , and I wish to say that today I am acting solely as an elected member of this Legislature and not as a member of any political group. In closi ng, I beg the members of the press not to be vindictive because of my talk about referring to the way they have hurt in this instan ce, but only to remember their great responsi bility in a democra tic country where the freedom of the press is recognized.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. · Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair . MR. CHAffiMAN: Which department is it, Labour or Welfare? MR. ROBLIN: Welfare, Mr. Chair man. MR. CHAffiMAN: Department XV - Welfare. (1 ) Admi nistration. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare)(The Pas): Mr.

Chair man, I would like on this occasion to say a word about the staff in the Department of Welfare who have been so help­ ful to me in my short period of time as the head of that Department. I must say that the Deputy Minis ter of Welfare and those directors in the Department have been most helpful during this short period of tim e. I have found them to be enthusias tic and dedicated civil servants , certain­ ly interes ted in those responsibilities which have been charged to the Department, and they are willing to work far beyond the normal call of duty in performi ng these services in the public interest.

And now I would like to make these very brief opening rema rks, Mr. Chair man. We're all very conscious as legislators of the great increases in expenditures in the Department of Welfare in recent years . We're all also very conscious as taxpayers of these changes in expen­ ditures, but we 're probably not quite so consicous of the way in which these expenditures touch the lives of those who are vitally affected and vitally dependent upon these for their .well-being, how it affects the lives of the aged and infir m, the disabled and the blind, the widows and or­ phans , and those less fortunate than ourselves.

We're also not consicious of the effects of the contribution of this Department towards the rehabilitation of people in order that they may re­ turn to make a full ·contribution towards the economy of Manitoba. I'd like very briefly to sort of review the annual report of last year, and in doing so, I'd like to point out that there are some 50, 000 Indian and Metis in this province, not all of whom are affected by the community development servi ces, but all of whom are indir ectly af­ fected by the work of this department.

It's interesting to note the great intere st by Indian bands throughout the province in their own well-being and what they themselves can do to help to resolve some of their local problems and to solve these things, and any who have ever at­ tended the Indian and Metis conferences here in Winni peg know the wide-spread parts of Manit­ oba that are represented there.

It will be of interest to know that simi lar conferences have been held in northern Manitoba at both The Pas and Churchill, and certainly the work of this Department is being felt across the province and is having an impact on the total group even though the direct services are performed for a very few. In the field of elderly persons' housing since it was implemen ted a few years ago -­ it's having a great impact on the health and well-being of hundreds of our senior citizens in Manitoba.

There are over 10 ,0 00 of our senior citizens who are receiving supplementary assis tance from the Department of Welfare; 2, 000 of these are in elderly persons • housing in­ stitutions or others, and are receiving supplementary benefits which average not the $1 0. 00 a month which has been requested in a reso lution that was before this House, but who are re­ ceiving an average of $80. 00 per month under the Social Allowances Act, and in addition to this they're recei ving medicare benefits. Receiving essent ial medical treatment -- eye­ glasses, dentures and things of that kind.

There are some 19, 000 reported in the annual re­ port as being in receipt of medicare services. There's 1, 700 families of bereaved and de­ pendent children who are receiving Mothers' Allowance; some 1, 500 cases receiving direct aid in unorganized territ ori es. There are 2, 200 children who have been declared wards of the Direc tor and who for all intents and purposes .are being treated as children of the government, or of the Director, until such time as they enter into permanent adoption homes or are re­ turned to their own famili es.

There are 5, 000 elderly people between the ages of 65 and 70 who are receiving old age assistance; 1, 400 in receipt of disabled persons' allowances ; 400 in Page 1470 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Desja rdins , cont' d. ) . . • receipt of blind persons' allowanc es . There are thousands who are in receipt of municipal assist ance for which the province pays either 40 percent or 80 percent in accordance with the formula. · The Fitness and Ama teur Sport program is just nicely under way and at the present time has had little impact on the people of Manitoba, but will have much greater effect in the years and months to come . There are many other thousands of people who recei ve indirectly aid through the pro­ vince. as a result of our donations to our various charitable instituti ons.

I'd like now just to touch upon those items that are under the vote -- 96 under the Exe­ cutive Division -- and will make a very brief statement on some of the other items as we pro­ ceed through the est imates . The first is elderly persons' housing, and since this Act was pro­ claimed in 19 59, we've had a great deal of intere st expressed from many parts of Manitoba. In 1962 we consider that we have had a bumper year in the field of new construction, with some 392 new units having been comple ted during this year; 216 of them were hostel units and 176 were housing units .

An additional 279 units were under cons truction at year end. The total grants for those units that were completed amount to $426, 770 and the grant potential for those still under cons truction is $373 ,5 64 making a total of grants earned and grant potential of·$872, 520 during the fiscal year just passed.

I'd like to say that this represents in additional capital inve stment in housing of this kind in the province, something like $3-1/ 2 million, which is a very sizeable addition to projects in th ose com munitie s which have participated in elderly persons' housing, and it also provides a very subs tantial increase in the number of units which will be available for our older citizens.

These projects enable our elderly people to live independently and, in many cases, on very limited means , and every effort is made by the Department and by Central Mortgage. and Housing Corporation to keep thes e costs down within the reach of most of the people who will be using these facilities.

These projects have been described as a prescription in preventive medicine for our Manitoba pioneers , because they help the old people to overcome loneliness and there's actually a kind of competition between them - a competitive spirit to remain healt hy and independent, to get out and get about their daily activities, to attend meals and things of that kind. It's a very real tonic for these people who live in these instituti ons. Some ,research is taking place into the needs and the architectural require ments of our senior citi­ zens for housing accom modation.

We're learning to design these institutions to meet the phys ­ ical shortcomings of our older people. Handrails and grab bars in the bathroom facilities; accom modation with doors sufficiently wide to accom modate wheel chairs and things of that kind, will enable these people to live in residential accom modation for a much longer period of time rather than force them into greater dependency by going to nursing homes or other facilities which are much more costly and which deprive them of their independence which they cherish so much.

We're placi ng greater stress in the Department on the independent kind of housing as opposed to the hostel type units . We're encouraging the building of these facilitie s along apart­ ment lin es, with central corridors so that there can be a complete circulation of inhabitants regardless of weather conditions . We feel that this will contribute a great deal more to the mobility of these people and to their happiness.

We 're encouraging the provision of central lounge facilitie s and kitchenette facilit ies so they can get together in the evening , to spend the evening chatting and make themselves a cup of coffee in central facilities. And these are de­ veloping some of the best clubs for older people in the world. I'd like to say at this time, we have also had very excellent co-operation from those organizations which have been sponsor­ ing these projects, and I think the people of Manitoba owe them a great debt of gratitude for their public contribution.

Under our community development program , which also comes under the Executive Division, Item No. 1, I think we've had a fairly full review of these activities in each year since Dr. Johnson introduced this program in 1959. For some of the new members, it might be interesting to know that this program is the application of techniques which have been used ·by the United Nations in helping to develop underdeveloped countries , and we're applying these techniques to our Indian and Metis com munities and economicall y depressed areas .

The program recognizes that these people are basically no different from those a! us who may live April 22nd, 1963 Page 1471

(Mr ... Carron, cont'd. ) .•• in more sophisticated surroundings. They have the sa1re desires that we have, and they have the capabilities to improve their situations, and we believe that through the community development program we can help them to accelerate their rate of achievement and their rate of development within these areas. This program involves assis­ tance at the local level.

It's assisting them to attack some of their local problems, and they may seem rather simple to us but to them they are real problems; problems such as school attendance and delinquency; ·providing ordinary community services like wells and roads and recreation facilities and things of that kind .. .We're helping them to. achieve economic goals at the local level; helping them to assess their local situation, to recognize local opportunity, and helping them to get in and develop these opportunities .

We feel that by helping them in this way to solve problems at the local level it will be of assistance to these people, those of whom must leave to seek employment elsewhere. It would be much easier for them to fit into the normal pattern of living having had this experience at home.

I'd like to mention the experience which we have had in Norway House , and to say that if any have a special interest in any of the other areas where we have community development programs at work, I'd be very pleased to outline some of the activities in these other locations as well, but we think Norway House is a sort of a common pattern for the development of com­ munities under the leadership of our community development officers. This area was opened up for community development at the end of 1959 , so it's been in progress now just slightly over two years.

They've established a consumers co-operative in that area with 130 members; they've been successfully . managing this business enterprise and accepting the responsibility for management. We think this is a good thing in basic education and business principles . They've established a fishermen's co-operative and have some 60 members in it, and last year their production of fish was 125, 000 pounds, which I understand were sold at good prices and gave a good return to the members of that co-operative. Their aim for this year is to double their production of last year.

They have built ice houses , putting up their own ice and manag­ ing .the whole operation. We think this is very good training for those people in this area of producers-co -operative. They've also initiated .and conducted adult education classes in six. different subjects with some 85 people attending. They've established a recreation club and have raised some $2, 000 towards a building fund project. They stimulated some local initiative with one indi­ vidual contemplating the establishment of a bakery at Norway House; another interested in chicken farming and cattle farming.

There also is a group considering a pulpwood cutting op­ eration and a fish box factory. There's a great deal more interest in the growing of produce in the area and we think this is a very good thing. I would like to say that I think that very little of this kind of progress could have been achieved except for the leadership and guidance and assistance which has been provided by our community development officers . Another new program implemented this last year is in the field of the distribution of un­ conditional grants to Indian bands throughout the north.

Now formerly these grants were given to the Indian bands to be deposited in trust accounts in Ottawa, which. took away from the band organization itself the sole discretion with respect to the spending of these funds. They had to be spent partly under the administration of the Indian Affairs Branch. We've been negotiating with .these bands now for several months to establish a procedure through which direct payment can be made to them.

We're wanting to make certain that proper signing authorities are estab­ lished; that projects are planned well in advance and that they have certainly a procedure worked out through which they can spend these monies themselves in the same way that other organized communities in Manitoba are doing, and we think this is a good thing for them to be able to accept responsibility and be treated the same way as any other group of Manitoba citi­ zens in an organized area. One other program that was brought to conclusion last year was the distribution of the surplus buildings at the Kelsey Hydro project.

Several bunkhouses were taken down and re­ assembled at many locations along the Hudson Bay line, to improve housing where inadequate housing existed, for use as curling rinks, community clubs and things of that kind. In this project, one bunkhouse went to Wabowden and one to Thicket Portage, with two each going to Gillam and llford. There were five houses dismantled. One went to Wabowden and is now be­ ing used as a nursing station; another to Thicket Portage for the same purpose, and one to Page 1472 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Carroll, cont• d. ) . . . Pikwitonei, also as a nursing station. Two other of the houses from Kelsey went out to replace inadequate housing along the Hudson Bay line .

Last year the province , in co-operation with the Friendship Council at The Pas and the Federal Government, helped to establish a friendship centre at The Pas, and the local initiative there is trying to es tablish a program by which they encourage the white and the Metis ·and the Indians to get to­ gether for better unders tanding, for educational purposes, to provide a home for Indians from northern Manitoba -- at least a place for them to come in and to find a place of welco me. We think .that this is a very good project.

Some of the programs that are being implem ented there -- they have a handicraft program under way for native people; they have social evenings ; adult education classes; study periods for high school and other students who have inadequate facili­ ties in their own homes -- they find that they can go to the Friendship Centre, get a quiet place to sit and study -- and we think this will contribute very substantially, not only to better under­ standing, but to the integration of our Indian and Metis population.

I would also like to mention that Friendship Councils were es tablished this last year at Swan River , at Churchill and at Brandon. One other new program that was started last year, and a very small beginning it was, but I think it was a very important one , and that is in the Employment Placement Servi ce. In co-operation with the Sanatorium Board of Manitoba and Indian Affairs, we hired our first placement officer last year and assigned him to the Sanatorium Board operation in Brandon to help to place Indian and Metis people in employment.

The original idea of the Sanatorium Board was to give pre -em'ployment training to convalescent tuberculosis patients . This has been expanded now to include non-convalescent Indians and Metis as well. Two hundred and fifty people have been placed since the com mencement of this service, and they also provide a follow-up service to make sure that they're doing well in their employment. We realize that Indian and Metis are one of the fastest-growing groups in our population.

We recognize too that there are very few job opportunities in some of the com munities from which these people come, so that we recognize that this kind of service will assume larger importance as time goes on, as these people are encouraged to leave the underdeveloped areas of our province and to seek employment els ewhere.

An example of the way in which Indians are moving out into employment more quickly, I can recall just prior to the war that there were probably only a half a dozen or so Indians ort The Pas Reserve , who were in anything like full-time empl oyment, and today I venture to say that at least half of the population are engaged in full or part-time employment out off the Re­ serve, and we think that this is a very important thing and indicates the kind of movement of these people that will have to take place if we're going to integrate this population into our society.

In January of this year, an Indian and Metis Advisory Council on Employment was es­ tablished by the former Minis ter of Welfare and arose out of discussi ons with some employers for employment opportunities for Indians in the far north. This is a represent ative group of em ployers in manufactur�ng ; in commerce and in in dustry. It includes a labour represen ta­ tive ; and the purpose of the group is to advise on ways and means by which we can encourage employment for Indian people. At the present time this group is studying the implications of the COMEF report that deals with Indian and Metis employment.

A further meeting has been laid on for May 6th and we hope that concrete proposals will be put forward by this Commi ttee in the near future to help in the problem of employment for these people, I would like to stop here , Mr. Chairman, and say that I will have further remarks to make on other headings . I would also like to say that there has been an error in the printed estimate figures under the Welfare Services Branch. We might correct that now if you would. It's under the Social All owances 2(c) . That figure reads now -- $8, 531, 741 and it should read $8, 831, 741. 00.

It's an increase of $300, 000 there with a corres ponding decrease of $300 ,0 00 under Item (e) , Assist ance for Municipal Aid Expenditures, which should read now $2, 15 0, 000. 00. MR . CHAIRMAN: .... follow the sugges tion of the Minister to deal with each sec tion of the department -- No. 1 now, Executive Division -- and deal with any rem arks on the other se ctions as we come to them. MR . N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone) : Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank yo,u for your April 22nd, 1963 Page 1473

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd. ) ..• suggestions. You may have some difficulty with me in keep­ ing me to this , but I will strive to follow your suggestions. Mr. Chairman, I would like at this time to congratulate the Honourable Minister on his program . I suggest that he will pro­ bably have as many problems here as he had in his former post, but I do recognize that it is a promotion, and I want to sincerely congratulate him on it and wish him well, and I would like to pay tribute as he did to the very large staff that he must have in this department.

You have heard me say on more than one occasion that I question whether there was another member of this House that wrote as many letters to the Department of Health and Wel- . fare as I do, and it is in the field of welfare that I seem to receive, certainly · the greatest number of inquiries, and I want to thank the Honourable Minister and the staff for the co-op­ eration that I continue to receive from them, from their social workers , welfare workers and indeed, all of the staff. This is a very large department as the Minister has indicated.

I think dollar-wise it is the third largest in the es timates -- the first being Education, Health and then Welfare. In the supplem entary supply that we voted on two or three weeks ago cer­ tainly nearly all of it had to do with Welfare -- about three-quarters of the amount voted had to do with Welfare -- so it !loes indicate that not only is it a large department but I'm sure that the Minister is finding that it will probably get larger every year. It is one of those depart­ ments that tends to more or less snowball. Now I was a little bit disappointed, Mr.

Chairman, when the Minister spoke about El­ derly Persons ' Hous ing that he did not make an announcement concerning a change in the Act -- That is, The Elderly Persons ' Housing Act -- because you will recall when we were deal­ ing with the Health Estimates , I spoke at some length -- too long I know many of you will say -- on the Health Estimates , on the subject of nursing homes , and the Minister suggested, that is, the Minister of Health suggested at that time , that I was really talking in the wrong depart­ ment, that I should be talking about nursing homes under the Department of Welfare and I took from his re marks that we could expect some major changes in this particular field.

I do not intend to tell the story all over again about the problem that they have in Neepawa in regard to a proposed nursing home or a combination of an elderly persons' home and a nursing home, and I hope that the Honourable Minister might be able to tell the House what provision there is in the existing legislation for grants to these alternative type homes, if any, or a combina­ tion of an elderly persons' home where say, 50 percent of it is designated for what we call al­ ternative care, to relieve pressure on the drastic shortage of hospital beds . I hope, too, Mr.

Chairman, that he might have something to say about the licensing of private nursing homes and to give us a list of the number of private nursing homes that are presently operating. I note as late as April 11th; the Winnipeg Tribune has quite a story there about a convalescent home ceasi ng operation at the year's end -- after it has been in operation for some 50 years I believe. It has closed its doors . And I was very sorry to learn of that.

I know that the Minister will agree with me that the private nursing homes all over this pro­ vince -- and I have no idea what numbers there are -- but they are serving a very, very worth­ while purpose and thereby relieving pressure on the hospitals. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that when we are considering nursing homes that we should consider that they must be placed pretty generally throughout the province and localized.

The Honourable Member for Virden the other day, speaking on the Bill for the Elderly Persons ' Housing accom modation that they turned the sod on the other day, told the House how impor­ tant that it was that structures of this nature be placed locally, that is, the people who spent their entire lifetime in a district certainly want to spend their golden years in the same locale . Now, Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether I should deal with Social Allowances now. The Honourable Minister touched on it -- (Interjection) -- Keep it for another item, eh? MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest that inasmuch a:s the Minister touched on these ot hers, that it would be only fair to allow the members who wish to do so, to do the same thing. Now, I realize the Minister said that he would be speaking on the various branches later on, but the Minister himself ran over the Welfare Services , The Old Age Assis­ tance and Blind people, even down to the physical fitness; and while he did it, I admit, rather quickly, and I gathered with the suggestion that he would deal more fully with them later on, yet the fact is he did mention them.

I think under those circums tances it would be only fair that members of the House, if they wi.shed to, follow that procedure. Page 1474 April 22nd, 1963

MR. CHAmMAN: . . .. perhaps we'd save some time. It worked to advantage on Friday night and inasmuch as the Minister said he was going to speak on these various items again, it might save a little time, but there's no ruling against speaking on any item at all if you wish. MR . CAMPBELL: Are you sure that it wasn't the fact of the lateness of the hour that worked to advantage on Friday night? MR. EVANS: . • • • • the tightness of the program for the department that was being presE!nted. MR. SHOEMAKER: •• •••• to do with Friday night. WeH, I'll tell you, Mr.

Chair­ man, I will speak briefly on it and then we will deal further with it. I will limit my remarks to the Social Allowances Program for the time being, just to make a couple of statements, and then I will go into it in more detail when we get to that item in the estimates .

But I would like to say this, that I think that in order to carry out the content of the various Throne Speeches that we have had before us in the last five or six sessions , and cer­ tainly in order to carry out the promises made by this government, both before and after elec­ tions, that it is now the time to declare all of those sections of the Social Allowance Act that have not been declared to date -- declare them all. I suggest that you cannot carry out the promises made by the government unless they do.

Now I have before me one of the election propaganda papers that was put out in 1958 and one in 1959 and they talk about human re ­ sources, social allowance, elderly persons housing and flood cqntrol and all the rest of it; and in regard to Social Allowance, this is what they said they were going to do: "An Act to in­ sure that no resident of Manitoba lacks esse ntial food, clothing and shelter or medical, dental or optical care ." Now there are lots of people in Manitoba who are lacking these services un­ der the Act because I think there's only about 50 percent of the Act that has yet been declared.

I would be very interes ted, Mr. Chairman, to have the Minister tell us when he rises to speak again, ·just what sections of the Act have been declared to date, and has any of them been de­ clared since the first sections were declared? That is, have they declared them in different stages ? I suggest, too, that the Bill that we passed in this House back in July, 1959 , nearly four years ago, in regard to Elderly Persons ' Housing -- and I have before me Hansard of July 15th, 1953 -- Mr.

Chairman, we were in Committee of the Whole discussing it on second reading, and the Minister of Health and Welfare, because as you remember it was all in one department at that time, had this to say about the Bill. Mr. Johnson speaking: "Mr.

Chair­ man, this Bill provides for the expenditure of public funds to non-profit voluntary and charit­ able organizations and to municipalities to encourage them by way of grants and guarantee of loans to increase accommodation required for elderly persons' housing, both in housing units and in hospital type accommodation." Now that's what he said on second reading of the Bill. "T he grants are both new construction and renovation and reconstruction of existing facilities.

The aim and object of the Bill is to try and encourage the development of adequate low-cost housing accommodation for elderly people." And he specifically mentions here, "hospital ac­ commodation" in the Bill. That was in 1959 . Now I hope that my honourable friend will be able to tell us more about that then. Now as regards the Social Al lowance, I would be interested to hear more about that when we get to it. I suggest that there are many, many persons in this province who cannot qualify for total disability pension for one reason or another. There's plenty of them.

Plenty of them who are unemployable but are found under the Act to not qualify. I have said before, Mr. Chairman, that to qualify for a total disability pension that you had to have one foot in the grave and another one on a banana peeling -- it may not be quite that bad, but it's pre tty near it.

Now if under the present sections declared in the Social Al lowances Act they're not in receipt of Social Al lowance -- and you've pretty near got to be presently in receipt of some kind of a pension to qualify for Social Al lowance, I understand it -- and I suggest that there are plenty of unemployable persons, probably of low LQ . and for a number of reasons who are left out in the cold. Now Mr. Chairman I will have a great deal more to say about this when we reach that item and I will try and comply with your request for some order. MR. GRAY: Mr.

Chairman, I also wish to congratulate the Minister -- the new Minis­ ter of Welfare in his introductory remarks and his willingness to help and improve conditions, April 22nd, 1963 Page 1475

(Mr.' Gray, cont'd. ) . . • but with all the nice accomplishments to date, it is still not suffi­ cient because the misery and the pain of those who are wards of the welfare is not yet elimin­ ated. All the improveme nts came in later years but however we are thankful, better late than never. The Welfare Department is the most important department in the province. As I said it deals with hardship, misery, pain, suffering of helpless people.

It deals with Mother Allow­ ances ; it deals with the future of children -- orphan children and neglected children -- and it deals with practically everything that is costly, not only to the people themselves, not only to the patients themselves and not only those who have to apply for it, but it's costl y to the state, and the sooner we can reme dy this - the sooner we have more rehabilitati on, the less co,stly it will be and it will leave us some money or some funds for improvement.

Now in connec tion with the -- later, in the last two years, in the last two years we have an all-cure rem edy called The Social Allowance Act, and everything where there is a shortage ; everything where it has to be an improvement, they tell the people to go and apply for anything that's necessary.

But we forget to realize that first of all it's a means test and people are not those professional beggars ; people are not professional men and women who apply for help, and if after living for years with their 'families and have security and have independence and all of ,a sudden they've got tO go down with their hands stretched out to the office of the Social Allowance Agency, , "Please Mister or Miss I need some money" then the enquiry, the inquisi­ tion I think this , although the Bill is partly good, but they should not depend entirely on every­ thing.

For: instance, has the Department recently checked the cost of living for the Mothers' All owance, under The Mothers' Al lowance Act and to find out whether the amount they are now receiving is sufficient or not. I don't know if any are rechecked. The only thing we can do when a Mothers' Al lowance case comes up, either to an M. L. A. or to the department, we try to find out and help. But that isn't the business of the mem bers of the Legislature during the year. It's the department.

Now not a word was said by the new Minister that the Mothers' Al­ lowance Act is in perfect condition, we are checking the cost of food; we are checking the cost of living ; we are checking the situation in the home; we have social workers to go into the homes and find out how they live, how they behave and what can be done for rehabilitati on; what can be done to take them off the Mothers' Allowance lis t. Mothers sometime go out to·work because the amount granted is definitely not sufficient.

So while we appreciate very much what they are doing and the improvem ents of the housing conditions for old age pensioners and the improvements of other items, still there is a lot that needs to be done, and the Minis ter should, in my humble opinion, tell us at the same time -- all right you've got a housing situation , you've rem edied but so much. What .are you going to do tomorrow? What are they going to do after tomorrow? What are your plans in the future ? · He told us about the situation of the Indians .

It's well known, but so far there is very very little improvement and I don't think that much time is being given to study the situation in connection with rehabilitation and bring those Indians back into society, bring them back to so­ called civilization . Let them consider they're human beings as good as anybody else. Let them train them to take their position in the employment world; in the indus trial world. Take them out from the so-called Ghetto, unless they wanted to stay down there . If they do, let's do for them the same thing as we do for anybody else.

You talk about creating industries in the rural districts; their's is a rural district. Why not plan to have an industry down there where they can be employed? All we do now -- the Minister has shown that a few things have been done, but their situation is still as miserable , still as hard as it was years ago. My point is that we're dragging along -- all governments -- dragging along the improve ments of healt h, of welfare, which is absolutely essential and neces sary -- drag it along too long and it takes too, much time to do it.

Once in a while we threw them a candy and we think that this candy will keep them sweet for years. And the old age pens ioners probably come under the heading , but it won't help anything there either. Take the old age pensioners . There are over 50, 000 in the province. I do not know how many have more than $65. 00 a month. I do not know -- maybe half; it may be more than half, but thousands have to exist on $65. 00 a month and then queue for all remedies . The social security or the social allowance comes in and says: "W ell if he's hard up, if he 's short of anything, let him come.

" Don't forget that the old age pensioners are respect able people. Page 1476 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Gray, cont'd. } .•• They have their homes. They have their own lives. They didn't suffer; they didn' t beg; they have contributed to the welfare of other people. Why should they go again and ask them for another $5 . 00? That's the only answer we have all the time about them . We have the crippled children -- for instance the incurables are now lodged in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Winnipeg. The hospital is full -- that's one . A lot of them are not admitted and many of them that canno t go home are being asked to be discharg ed.

I'm speak­ ing from a couple of cases which I definitely have, and I could tell the Minister about it. A man who had a heart attack, half mental, diabetic and he was asked to move in the next week or two from the hospital. If there's no room in the hospital, why cannot we . develop and pay to the nursing homes? There are many homes in Winnipeg today that -- they either have to be destroyed or they're only good for that particular purpose .,.- either boarders or a nursing home.

Why could not we either help or direct those owners of the nursing homes to become more equipped and get some training to keep those incurables there. You can't bury them; it's agains t the law while they're alive, but you've got to look after them. They have paid to society for the amount that we have to spend to them now; and , on the other hand , it's our own interest to ensure them for their sake and for the sa ke of the expense of the state. So while we are not dealing with details now, I'll probably have another one.

In the meantime, the Minis­ ter's address today, while I welcome it very, very much, I show that he has a great interest in it. I have no doubt that he'll do his best but this was only a cup of coffee to keep him alive , to not to die for another day. Now there is another point in connect ion -- the Minister mentioned about housing for the old age . I think in addition to housing, which is necessa ry, some thing has to be done, something has to be done very very soon to take the single men out of the dilapidated rooming homes where there's fire hazards and it's not sanitary.

At the same time, while the old age pensioners are alive, whether they have sufficient to exist or not, but they have to have .a cer­ tain amount of recreat ion. Years ago there started to deveiop Golden Age Clubs, where they elm meet down there and they have concerts , can read and play cards and carry on conversa­ tions. It brings a little bit of sunshine in their lives. Most of them, or many of them have no children or their children are away; they don' t com municate with them.

They are lones ome, and I have not yet heard in this House where the go vernment directly tried to encourage and also to finance to some extent all these Golden Age Clubs.

Many of them are in existence here in Winnipeg, and if you could come in, I could take the Honourable Minister, on a Wednesday for instanc e, to a certain Golden Age club on Selkirk Avenue and let him for himself see the smile and the bright eyes and the pleasure that these old age pensioners get from this social club; and what they get from being asso ciated with others instead of sitting in their rooms and thinking about the end of their days.

So at the moment all I can say now is this, that while we appreciate very much what the Honourable Minister has given -- the inform ation given us of improvement -- I personally believe that it is not sufficient. I have many individual claims as examp les, but I'm not going to mention it now. I'll wait until the separate items will be taken up. MR . CHAIRM AN: Itein 1 -- pa ss ? MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say a word or two in connection with the administration of the Department of Welfare.

May I, first of all, join in a tribute tha t has been made by members who have spoken to the administrative staff of the Department of Welfare. I've had some differences of opinion on a few occa sions with them but I think this is only natural , Mr. Chairman, but even notwithstanding these differences of opinion with them, I've found that they are a very capable people and very efficient people nonetheless. Now I don't know what to say really about my honourable friend the New Minister of Welfare.

We have had two or three exchanges, I think, annually in the past since he became a Minister of the Crown, , and there again we've had considerable differences of opinions as in other departments , but I do, Mr. Chairman, wish him every success in the Department of Wel­ fare. I think, sir, that this is one of the most important departments in the field of govern­ ment today. It is one that is becoming ever more a department that is involving more and more of the people in the Province of Manitoba. There was a time when we considered using the word "welfare" that we were referring to real indigent care.

We recall �hat back in the April 22nd, 1963 Page 1477

{:r.h'. Paulley, cont1d. ) ••• old days when we spoke of welfare , we were thinking of those people that were at the last stretch of their financial resources, but I think now we have come to realize and recognize that in the field of government that we more and more are truly ap­ proaching what so many refe r to as the welfare state. So I sugg est, Mr. Chairman, there has been a change in the definition of "welfare" and it's becoming more and more all-embracing.

I want first of all to say to the Minister, as he is starting out in his new venture as Minister of Welfare , I would respectfully suggest to the Minister of Welfare that he looks over The Social Allowances Act and the regulations pertaining to the. Act itself; and try and impress upon his colleagues in the Cabinet the necessity, the desirability of completely bringing in to operation all of the regulations under The Social Allowances Act.

I think the member for the Liberal Party speaking here, the Member for Gladstone speaking a few moments ago made re­ ference to the fac t that only about 50 percent of the statutory provisions in respect of The So­ cial Allowances Act have been brought into being at the present time . I'm particularly con­ cerned with the fact that the government has not seen fit to bring under the regulations one of the clauses of which I'm sure that they received the support of the people of Manitob a back in 1958-59; namely, the provision that under The Socia