V:OL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUESDAY, MAY 24, 1983. NO. 46

May 24, 1983 Tape 2448 EC - 1 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan)and,failing that, the Premier. Neither of these gentlemen~ to be in his seat so I guess I will ask the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). The question concerns the lobster fishery, the salmon fishery a~d so on and the interference of Arctic ice with those fisheries along the Northe~st Coast. I might point out, Mr.

Speaker, that this year's fishery at least ~ promised to be one of the best on record. Now, unfortunately, that has been interrupted by ice conditions along the coast. I know, for example, that in Musgrave Harbour, Ladle Cove, Aspen Cove, Carrnanville, Frederickton and Fogo Island, a great deal of lobster, lump roe, salmon fishing gear and herring fishing gear have been lost. I am wondering if the minister is aware of and could inform the House what the extent of that loss is?

If that is not certain, would he now give a commitment to have officials of the Department of Fisheries run a thorough inventory of what has been l~st as soon as it is possible to do so? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, we are certainly aware of the situation but the extent of it is not immediately known. A],l I can tell the hon. gentleman is that the officials of the Department of Fisheries are on top o£ it and will, in fact, be monitoring it. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 5210 '.4· - . ' \..

May 24, 1983 Tape 2448 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A supplementary, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have reason to believe, out of the checks that I have.done myself, that perhaps the loss is extensive •. If it is, once, as the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) says, the government finds out how extensive the damage is, I am wondering what form of emergency assistance or aid is the government pre­ pared to make available to these fishermen so that this year's fishery, which was a very promising one, I would point out again, will not be a total loss for them?

What type of assistance or aid can they expect from government? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the situation, as I said, is being assessed, so obviously one could not make any specific response to the question the hon. gentleman has given. I can only tell him that we have to see what the situation is first. We have to operate within budgetary constraints that affect us all, affect the fishing industry and affect everyone else,and that is all that I can say at the present time. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo : MR.

TULK: I am wondering if the Government House Leader is aware that there are indeed some fishermen with 400 to 600 pots who have just salvaged something like fifty of them? I understand the government operates what is called a lobster pot bank and the cost of those lobster pots, I understand, without including the cost of rope and ballast antl so on, is $7. I understand that at a meeting 5211

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2449 MJ - 1 HR. TULK: last night in Fogo district it was :decided to ask the government to reduce the cost to approximately $2 per trap. I wonder how the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) feels about that proposition and is he prepared to implement that measure once the inventory of damage has been carried out? I might point out that with the government's lobster pot programme,a lobster pot costs the fishermen more than it would if he had made it himself, so I am wondering if he is willing to go along with some form of subsidization?

Surely he can answer that now even without knowing what the loss is, how great the loss is. I can tell him that in some cases it means, as I said before, where a person had 500 or 600 pots he is no~v down to fifty right in the middle of the fishing season,so I am wondering if he can tell us if he is willing to subsize the cost of those lobster pots that are found in his lobster pot bank and indeed for how much? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat the answer that I gave the hon. gentleman a moment ago.

I mean, J this is a matter that has to be .1 in the first inst<!-nce, assessed. He has given certain figures. I do not disagree with his assessment of certain individual damage,which appears to be very great and very grave,but,in relation to all of these matters, I am . sure the hon. gentleman wiil .appreciate that whether or not there is in· fact any assistance, whether it is poss~ble to give any assistance 'is going to depend first of all upon the situation itself and the gravity of it and, secondly, equally important, as to the amount of funds that are available for that purpose.

So, I cannot at this particular 5212 , ..

~lay 24, 1983 Tape 2449 MJ - 2 MR. MARSHALL: time - I think it would be very wrong for me - by ioiay of answering and trying to appease the hon. gentleman to give any impression whatsoever that there would be recompense in this particular case until we are fully apprised of the situation. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I recognize full well that you have to wait until the ice has moved off the coast before you can assess what the damage is, but I would like to ask the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) how many people is he prepared to put into tl:J;e area and how long does he contemplate that it will take him after the ice moves off to give us a general commitment - perhaps he can give us a general commitment now - as to what the government's policy or philosophy is t.owards that kind of disaster? In ather words, what I am asking, Mr. Speaker, is is there any ray of hope for those fishermen from Green Bay to Cape Freels who have lost an extensive amount of gear? 5213 . .:

May 24 , 1 983 Tape No. 2450 SD - 1 MR. TULK: Is there anv ray of hope for them at all? How long will it take him, after the ice moves off the coast, to give them .a specific commitment? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, that is going to depend upon the answers that we get to the questions and tfie findings that the officials make. I can only say tha t this government sympathizes with any loss of the magnitude that the han. gentleman describes. Certainly there have been losses in the areas.

We are familiar,in the fishing industry particularl~ with losses of this nature on a seasonal · basis by way of gear and what have you, and it is very costly to the fishermen concerned. Certainly the government is very sympathetic to these losses, but as to holding out a ray of hope, look, that depends upon the amount of the money involved, the extent of the loss,and the nature of the overall policy implications that would be involved to responding to a specific situation.

I can only tell the han. gentleman that this government is very sympathetic to the problem,but what exactly it is able to do and how far it is able to address itself to the problem is something that we will have to determine after we address it in its full implications. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: member for Fogo. MR. TULK : Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the han. Mr. Speaker, as I pointed out to the minister earlier, I understand that part of the loss, - --- and perhaps a great deal of the loss is in the herring net .. . . -- - fishery and the salmon fishery and the lump roe fishery.

Let me ask the minister one final question. Since he refuses to hold out the ray of hope that I had asked him for for these fishermen, since he says that he cannot do it 1 5214

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2450 SD - 2 MR. TULK: would he now hold out this commitment to them, :hat as soon as that ice is off the coast he will send every possible fishery officer into the area ·to carry out the inventory of just what the loss is and assess the damage? Will that be done immediately,as soon as the ice moves off the coast? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, I would not like this exchange to be framed in the context the hon. gentleman has in his question 1 saying that we refused to hold out a ray of hope. All I am doing, Mr.

Speaker, is ascertaining what is real ,which is the real world in reality. Now all I can say to the hon. gentleman is that within the measure of the resources of this government that it has by way of manpower in assessing the situation and by way of other areas 1 that we will address ourselves to it in its full implications as soon as we are able to have enough facts available in order to assess the situation in its entirety.

But I do not wish this answer to be imputed in any way 1on the one hand 1 of not holding out any ray of hope and 1 on the other hand ,indicating that this government is going to implement a policy for compensation which, as much as we would like to do, is something we would have to determine,the extent of it and whether it can be afforded, as I say, and the implications on the long-term policies of the government in responding to this specific instance this year. __,. 5215

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2451 ID.i - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the minister responsible for parks, and the Premier, I would like to ask a guestion to the Government House Leader.

In light of the -events of the past ~ekei'..d, when rreny law-abiding citizens at certain provincia .l ~arks in this Province were made very un=n:fortable and were constrained. to certain< degrees -ip enjoying their life out in the provincial parks, would the minister care to tell this House if his government is planning to bring in any legislation banning the use of alcohol in provincial parks in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, as to the specifics, the hon. Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe},in the absence of the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms}, is seized of the situation. I think perhaps it would be better to refer the question to him. MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The han. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, the reports from the weekend as it relates to activities in some of our provincial parks was certainly disappointing,to say the least.

There are a number of things,r guess 1from this past weekend's experien~e that will cause some changes to be made as it relates to additional enforcement and perhaps some innovative ways of making sure that the safety and in fact the enjoyment of legitimate campers is protected to th.e utmost.

To the specific question of whather in fact alcohol beverages will be banned from the provincial parks, I am sure that that certainly will be considered along with a number of other suggestions OI). how to better protect the situation.Whether in fact that is in itself the only reason there were some problems, or whether in fact banning alcohol will indeed stop some of the activities that occurred is certainly 5216

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2451 NM -2 MR. DAWE: a debatable question and ·\vill be revi.e\ved, I am sure, by the department and by government in general. MR. SPEAKER {Russel·l): Mountains. MR. WARREN: to the acting minister. The hen. member for Torngat Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary ~>l"ould the minister tell this House if there are any words of assu.rance that he can offer to the parents of the children, and also to the elderly people who would like to use Butterpot Park, or some other parks in this Province on the various weekends throughout this Season that the people who a.re using those parks for the rest of the year and in the future will be protected better than they were this past weekend? ·, 5217

May 24, 1983 Tape 2452 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The han. Minister for Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, from time to time for the past several years there_have been isolated incidents of perhaps, not particula~ly ~ociable activities in the parks that have damp~ned the holiday activities of family campers and people who were taking the opportunity to enjoy our provincial parks, and from time to time additional measures have been taken. This seems to be a particularly unusual occurence 1 this past 24th. of May weekend.

It is not one that has been experienced before, at least not in this severity, and we would certainly hope that it will not be experienced again. However, as I indicated,a number of additional measures will be put in place that will try and try this kind of activity from occuring as much as possible.

It is very difficult to know beforehand exactly what will happen at the park sites and just what activities will take place, but certainly a complete review of security measures,of the involvement of the RCMP and other police officers , and,in fact, park staff will be reviewed in some detail over the next number of days to try and make sure that we can prevent might as much as possible the kinds of activities that occurred this weekend. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. ___ .£_ MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary --.... to the minister: It is surprising that I think the same minister was responsible for the parks a couple of years ago when we had a similar incident at Butter Pot Park. The minister may say that it might be a more major occurrence this time, but the minister was responsible about two years ago when we had a similar occurrence, and it usually happens the first week the parks are opened. Now could the minister advise this han. House , in the capacity he is filling today, was the problem that there was not sufficient staff at the park to alleviate this problem?

Or was the park warden in charge 5218

!<lay 24, 1983 Tape 2452 PK - 2 MR. WARREN : of Butter Pot Park exaggerating when he said that he lost control of the problem in the park? Which does the minister believe? Does the minister believe that control was lost by lack of staff in the park or does the minister believe that it is just an occurr~ce that has been happening for the last three yearsand it is going to continue? MR . SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR . DAWE : Mr . Speaker , I am sure that the member for Torngat (Mr . Warren) was not indicating that I was responsible for the disturbance in Butter Pot Park two years ago .

MR . WARREN: No way ~ No ! No ! MR . DAWE : .That was sort of suggested to .me in his line of questioning . The questions that he asks are really 5219

May 24, 1983 Tape No .. 2453 MJ ~ 1 MR.

DAWE: hypothetical ones. l have no control,nor does the minister who is responsible for the department,over some statements that particular officials may or may not have made. l am sure, as l indicated in previous supplementaries, that we as a government, and particularly, I am sure, my colleague the minister responsible will be going over with his staff.the situation in each of the parks, not only in Butter Pot Park but the other parks that were opened and try and do an assessment as to i'l'hether there was anything that could have been done to p~~vent this activity, whether it was the kind of situation that you could have expected and perhaps more could have been done about or whether in fact I --- ·--- · --- it was something that perhaps could not have been controlled to the extent that we would like to see.

But I am sure the department will be assessing that and will be making the necessary adjustments to prevent the situation from occuring again. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Mountains. MR, WARREN: A final supplementary, Mr, Speaker, The hon, the member for Torngat I understand that ~e purpose of the overflow at the various parks is to accommodate - "·-· . . --.;.. · ---·- - overnight people who are '1-lai t~!lg to get in t:h.e . I='~rk and the?- get into the park the following day.

Is it the po~icy of this government for campers to use the overflow in the various parks the same as they would use the campsites? because I understand even last year 1 and again this past weekend 1 that the overflows ~.rere used for the same :ourpose by the cam~ers as a regular campsite~-.Could the minister take it upon himsel£ to see that the overflow will be used for the purpose for which it was intended? MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. 5220

May 20, l983 Tape No. 2453 MJ-2 MR. SPEAKER {Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DANE: Hr. Speaker, I will have a ~V'ord \o/ith my colleague responsible and I am sure that, as always, he will do whatever is right and proper in this situation as well as others. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines {Mr. Dawe). Mr.

S~eaker, on May 16 the hon. gentleman told this Bouse1in connection with the barite operation at Buchan '·s site this year,1 'I have at the present time in~~cations that there will be' limited barite operation at~~~ Buchan's site this year.' Now, in view of the fact that l~goobar just opened an operation here in St. John's,and there is one other operation that supplies barite for the offshore drilling, could the hon. gentleman tell us if he still stands by that 5221

May 24, 1983 Tape 2454 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: statement he made the Monday before last, eight days ago, that there would be barite produced in ·Buchans this year? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Mines. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I indicated 'at that time that the available information that we had - and that was from discussions with the operators of the barite operation in Buchans - that they were anticipating some limited production this coming season, and that still stands.

What is important to realize,as it relates to that particular operation and as it relates to the Magnobar operation in co­ operation with Standard Manufacturing Company, is that the extent of production at both operations will depend upon the extent of contracts that they are able to get from the companies that are doing the drilling. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. gentleman tell the House where the local preference policy comes into play?

My understanding is that the federal government pumped $400,000 into the barite operation in Buchans to get it going, and there is an unlimited supply out there. ~hese other two companies mainly are owned by • outsiders and they have to import barite from as far away as Ireland in order to sweeten the barite that they mine here on the Avalon Peninsula and in Trinity Bay. Now, where does local preference come into play as far as Buchans is concerned? Because hon. gentlemen will remember that when the member for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry) was Minister of Mines and Energy, he went to Buchans and told them that everything was sweetness and light, would come up smelling of roses, that this was an example of what the offshore would do for 5222

May 24, 1983 Tape 2454 EC -2 MR. NEARY: communities in Newfoundland,such as Buchans1that were nard hit with unemployment because of the closing of the mine. Would the han. gentleman tell us now if the government feels the same way about the Buchans barite operation? And could he tell us where local preference comes in? MR. SPEAKER (Russel·l): MR. DAWE: The han. the Minister of Mines. Mr. Speaker, of course this government is very interested, and as a matter of fact, the policies that we have put forward indicate continuing of the local preference policy as it relates to all our resource activities.

In the interest of perhaps clari£ying the.matter more precisely than I could, I wonder if the han. member would mind if I refer the question to the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor),who has been involved in the development of the local preference policy and, in fact, has some background information on tnese two opera.tion~? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The-han. the Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to recognize how local preference works. In this particular case, what we now have are two companies, in effect, that qualify for local preference.

The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) may recall that about a year or so ago, there was a tender called by the offshore companies, which was awarded to the Mag~obar company, and it was awarded to them based on the fact that they were operating with some barite that was being mined at Colliers Point in Trinity Bay and that was -b~ing ground by 5223

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2455 .so - 1 MR. WINDSOR: Standard Manufacturing Company here on a joint venture. Subsequently, after the contract was awarded and every effort made to fulfill the terms and conditions of the contract and the local preference requirements / unfortunately the company was not able to do that. The House may recall there was some question about it at the time.

Having thoroughly reviewed that, we were convinced that the company had done everything that they possibly could have done under the circumstances and it was through conditions beyond their control that they were not able to fulfill the local preference requirements that they had previously implied they would.

We made it very clear to them at the time, in speaking to the principles of the company,that they would not be given any further local preference unless they could clearly establish themselves here again as a local company • In order to do that, they would need a new milling operation, The main problem they had was that the equipment in the old mill was previously used by Standard I<ianufacturing primarily .. --··. .._-. ' -- ---- - - -- -- -- . -- to grind pigments of paint. To use that equipment and apply ----- - ___ __ ..!..- it to barite, that there would need to be some new -- - equipment.

They und~rtook at that time to do that and they knew quite well that they would not get any local preference, that the Buchans operation obviously in future tenders would be given preference unless they brought their local component up to scratch. They have done that now with the opening of the new mill. I understand it is something like $500,000 in investment in new equipment in co-operation with Standard Manufacturing Company. Local preference comes into it, Mr.

Speaker, very clearly, that without our offshore regulations, without local preference, Magcobar would have no incentive whatsoever to spend that money in Newfoundland, 5224 (

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2455 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: they would have no incentive to become involved in the operation at Collier's Point or elsewhere, and they are investigating other deposits of barite because there are several in the Province. And so local preference very clearly has resulted in a new operation being established here in Newfoundland. It has never been this government's policy to play one local operation against another.

There are now effectively two local operations, they will be bidding and, obviously, the one that can provide the best level of service at the lowest cost will be the successful tenderer. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): ·MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, either one of the hon. gentlemen can ans~:: _the supplementary question •. The barite operation in Buchans was held out as the last hope that Buchans had left.

The provincial government got behind it, the minister at the time went out for the opening, there was $400,000 of Canadian taxpayer money put into that operation to get it going. Now is the hon. gentleman aware that as 5225

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2456 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: a result of this new company winning the contracts, the tender, that it has been announced that Buchans barite operation will not open this year, that no barite will be produced in Buchans this year? Is the hon. gentleman aware of that, that a public announcement has been made by the company, made last Thursday I think it was, that there would be no barite produced in Buchans this ' .year? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, you know 1 I think in my previous answer I indicated that really what you are talking about now are two local companies, one must compete against th .e other. And obviously the company that can produce the quality product, with proper delivery times and at the lowest rate, will be given the job.

There was never any question from the people in Buchans, in the discussions I had with them a year ago · .when I visited that plant, by the way, and went righ .t through the operation, there was never any question of them providing the barite to the total exclusion of Hagcobar or any other company that wished to establish here. The people of Buchans are not asking ~or special preference, all they wanted to ensure was that they were .-- ::....--- .- ~ - competing with local companies and, if they were not, that they were given local preference '.' We have ensured that they . would get local preference.

The other company now has complied with the requirements of our offshore regulations and our local preference policy 1 and they have every right to do business here in this Province. It has been a policy of this government in fact to encourage joint ventures and to get new companies, particularly companies with the expertise and the background of a company such as Magcobar in here do~ng joint ventures with companies, such as Standard Manufacturin~that have been here for many, many years. 5226

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2456 NM- 2 MR. WINDSOR: So both companies have a right to apply for the business with the offshore companies. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman did not answer the question r put to him. I know r cannot compel him to answer the question. The question was was either hon. gentlemen aware that the company that owns the bari~e operation in Buchans announced last week that they would not be producing a single pound of barite in Buchans this year? Is the hon. gentleman aware of that?

The hon. gentleman probably did not understand the question, Mr. Speaker. Can the hon. gentleman also tell the House if under local preference, what the hon. gentleman interprets as local preference, will any company supplying mud, supplying barite for the offshore drilling, will they be permitted to import barite into the Province?

For instance, I understand that the grade of the ore at Colliers is a very high grade and it has to be downgraded a bit and they have to import barite from outside of Newfoud~and, from Ireland, to mix with the barite • Now could the hon. gentleman tell the House if that is permissable under the local preference policy? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr . Speaker, it is obvious that it is not I who does not understand the local preference, it is the hon. gentleman opposite. The local preference policy applies to the value added within the Province.

Now whether or not a portion of that ore is being imported from Ireland or anywhere else is totally irrelevant. hbat is important is the bottom line in applying the local preference formula 1and the factors are well known to industry in this Province, that the company then, if the factor is 5227

May 24, 1983 Tape 2457 PK - 1 MR. WINDSOR: sufficient to give them local preference,they will get local preference.If they import ore from Ireland,and if that reduces their local content to a point where they no longer qualify for local preference 1 then they indeed will not get local preference. Whether or not they do import part of it from Ireland it is irrelevant. They may well have to import some more from Ireland for blending 1 although the intent is,hopefully, in the end analysis, to operate as much as possible with local ore and of course with local milling and local labour. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: \,__ It looks to me, Mr. Speaker, like the 2,500 or 3,000 people who live in Buchans were bluffed by this administration in connection with this barite production. Could the han. Minister of Mines (Mr. Dawe) tell the House if he has any information now about the future of the Buchans mines? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, 'the Buchans mines,' I am assuming from that that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) is asking really two questions, one as it relates to the base metal operation, the other one as it relates to the barite operation. I indicated to this House a few days ago that the base metal activity at the Buchans operation of ASARCO will depend on a number of things, The primary thing being whether the markets wo ,rld wide for base metals improve sufficiently to allow the operation to continue with the minor reserves that are still available or whether in fact the new discoveries at Tally Pond are significant enough to cause the industry to move in and develop that site. And 5228 "'

..,_- May 24, 1983 Tape 2457 PK - 2 MR. DAWE: that, of course, itself depends upon the market. If those things happen1then there is a distinct possi.bility that the whole base metal operation will be revitalized, but there are a number of things in there that are on beyond our control. As it relates to the barite, the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) I think adequately explained the situation, in that it is a very competitive field that those particular operations are in.

They have to conpete on quality and on cost fond on being suc9essful in their bids to t.he companies which are looking for the barite for their drilling operations. Now depending upon which one, I guess, gets its act together best will depend who gets the contracts, and that will be the same for the continuation of the contracts that will be offered this Summer from the various companies and for the years down the road . 5229

May 24, 1983 Tape No, 2458 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: A suppler:=lta,r.J to the rninister., MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader o~ the Opposition. t' MR. NEARY: In his answer about the future of tr..e Buchans mines,could the hon. gentleman tell the House if the mine will be held intact to de .termine whether or not there is a good seam of ore there, the one they are looking now, or markets improve,whichever comes first? Could the hon . . gentleman tell the House if the Buchans mine will remain intact ready for operation, or will the company be allowed to flood the mine? MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, the options available as they relate to that particular operation a:r;e assessed, there is an ongoing process of consultation between the officials of the department and the mine interests at Buchans. Their development plans and what is projected for the future are continuously updated and assessed and this government will do whatever it has to do within the acceptable regulations to insure that that operation,if things improve 1becomes again a viable and worthwhile area of mining activity in _ the Province. MR.

SPEAKER: The time for the Question Period has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. ~HALL: Order 35, Bill No. 41. I MR. SPEAKER: Order 35, Bill No. 41, second reading. I understand that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) adjourned the deb~t~ on 5230

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2458 MJ - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : this bill. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes, ~J. Speaker, I was making a few general comments about the Newfoundland Constabulary~ I believe I asked the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) if he could explain for the House whether the policy of early retirement for constables in the Newfoundland Constabulary was still in effect? I believe I pointed out on Friday that constables who enter the uniformed services of the Newfoundland Constabulary and the fire department could at age forty-three retire after twenty-five years of serVice. HR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR.

ROBERTS: That is as good as the House- Well, that is better than the House. -and-they do not have to get re-elected either, do they? MR. NEARY: They do not have to get re-elected, that is ;r:-ight. Could the han. gentleman tell the House if that policy is still in effect? If .so, is there any intention on the part of the administration and the minister to change that policy? We could never understand the reason behind it, Mr. Speaker, and perhaps this would be a good time,now that we are dealing with "An Act To Amend The Uniformed Services Pensions Act~ to clear up that matter.

It seems to me it would be a bit much that people can retire at age forty-three, that is if they come into the constabulary at age eighteen and they are coming in today, Mr. Speaker, at a very early age, eighteen, nineteen and twenty years of age1and then theY-perform their service for twenty-five years and then they can go out on retirement and get another job. That is what has been 5231

May 24, l983 Tape No. 2459 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: happening in most instances and there may be justification for it. Maybe the man is considered to be over the hill at the age of 45, that he can no longer handle himself, that he can no longer take care of himself in the rough and tumble work that smnetimes the poli"ce have to become involved in. That ~ay be the reason for it, although I cannot understand that, Mr.

Speaker, because I think that a man of 43 or 44 or a lady for that matter, 45 years of age, should be able to take care of themselves, should be able to handle the work that is necessary to be done by the - MR. CALLAN: They should have the experience by then. :MR. NEARY: by then and the training. They should have the experience They should be able to handle any rough and tumble situations that they become involved in. I know it will be very difficult on times to handle the rough and tumbles o£ the House, the things that happen in this House sometimes, Mr.

Speaker, but I have seen han. gentlemen here and much older that 45, ready to take on the world, ready to challenge all and sundry, willing to get involved in fisticuffs. And, Mr. Speaker, it will be interesting to hear the han. gentleman give his comments on this. Another point that I wo~ld like to make while we are on this bill about the Newfoundland Constabulary, Mr. Speaker, has to do with the expansion.

An awful lot of complaints are coming in from people who claim that they are being unnecessarily harrassed by the squad cars, by the Newfoundland Constabulary who are swarming all over the area that has been taken in, St. Thomas, Torbay and that area, giving out tickets of all kinds. Mr. Speaker, I am n9t complaining about the Newfoundland Constabulary, perhaps they are only performing their duty, they are 5232

May 24, 19~3 Tape No .2459 JV - 2 MR . NEARY: carrying out their jobs, but it seems to me that the members of the Newfoundland Constabula .ry - the principles behind law enforcement is to protect people not to go out and let people get in trouble or intimidate people , coerce them and abuse them , try and get them into troub le; the whole idea of law enforcement is ~o protect people and to stop them from getting into trouble . But when you see squad cars hidden away in the bushes and around corners and under the brow of hills and so forth ready to pounce on people , Mr .

Speaker, that seems to me to be very demeaning and lowering the prestige and the image of the Newfoundland Constabulary . 5233

Ma y 24, 1983 Tape 2460 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: I do not think you see that as much with the RCMP but you certainly see it practically every second with the Newfoundland Constabulary. A lot of people have remarked to me that maybe the minister has to recover some of the expenses of the expansion and this is how the hon. gentleman intends to do it, that they have a quota system,that they have to collect so much revenue to put towards the expansion of the Newfoundland Constabulary in the areas ~hat they have taken in. Well, Mr.

Speaker, that raises the question then of the wisdom of going ahead with the expansion at this time. Here, you have a govern­ ment strapped for money, a deficit this year of $27.4 million MR. ROBERTS: That they admit. MR . NEAR Y: - that they admit, and will probably go higher, probably go to $100 million. But what is happening, Mr. Speaker, is they have to provide squad cars now, they have to provide personnel, they have to provide radios, they have to provide all the services that ordinarily were provided by the RCMP.

The RCMP just fade out of the picture, they take their squad cars with ·them, they take their radios, they take all the paraphernalia that they need for law enforcement in these areas and the burden of the cost rests on the shoulders of the Newfoundland taxpayers. So, Mr. Speaker, I question the wisdom of the expansion at this particular point in "time. But I hope that these people who have come to us are wrong, that the minister is not merely trying to collect revenue to help pay for the expansion. I hope that is not correct, Mr.

Speaker, because my idea of a policeman is to protect people, not to try to get people in trouble. And I think, Mr. Speaker, that this harassment, if it is indeed happening, should be"stopped. I think that most Newfoundlanders are law-abiding citizens and now they are given a ticket for 5234

May 24, 1983 Tape 2460 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: everything. Some people have been stopped as high as ten and fifteen times and they are guaranteed to get a ticket for something, poor tires or your -hand brake is not working. They have not done that for years. That is something we have not seen done in this Province for years and years, Mr. Speaker. They do not even measure the tires now, just get out and look at them and say 'Your tires are not up to scratch, not up to standard, here is a ticket.' It really looks like they are pushing for revenue to help offset the cost of expansion, and if that is so, Mr.

Speaker, then I do not blame people for complaining and criticizing the present policies of the administration and the Newfoundland Constabulary . Mr. Speaker, personally, I do not like this idea of cars being parked, hidden away. I do not mind, I do not think anybody minds getting a ticket man-fashion or any woman getting a ticke 't woman-£ashion, Mr. Speaker, if they are breaking the law.

But when you are coming down a grade and here is a car hidden away and by and by the radar beeps in the car and the next thing you know the squad car is a£ter you and you get a ticket for $50 for speeding because you did not apply your brakes coming down a grade and a car is hidden away -Mr. Speaker, I do not think the han. gentleman can justify that sort of action: I do not think he can. I do not think the hon~ gentleman is aware of what is happening. People are getting tickets right, left and center, Mr. Speaker. And I am not just 5235

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2461 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: raising it. I have the highest regard for law enforcement in this Province. I have the highest regard for the RCMP and for the Newfoundland Constabulary but I do not like some of the things that I am hearing and some of the things that I am seeing. Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is right. I think that people are finding it difficult enough without having cars hidden in the bush, hiqden under the brow of a hill, with these little gimmicks and the latest technology they have,that they can get a little beep in their car and the next thing you know you got a ticket, Mr.

Speaker. I am sure all hon. members on both sides of the House have had these complaints. We have been swamped with these complaints since the expansion took place. And I am not saying anything detrimental about the Newfoundland Constabulary or the law enforcement. Their job is very difficult, Mr. Speaker. They have a very difficult job to do,especially in these trying times when the economy of this Province is in such bad shape .thanks to the mismanagement and incompetence of this administration.

People are being harrassed enough by bill collectors and people are being harrassed enough by government agencies who control your life. They run your lif:, Mr. Speaker .. It is bad enough to have all of that, but ti:en __ to turn the Province into a police state, I think that is going too far, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): President of the Council. ' MR •. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, we are now discussing a bill with respect to The Uniformed Services Pensions Act; included in it, it is true, is a

schedule relating to the Newfoundland Constabulary pensions. But I suggest that the hon. gentleman is getting now into the area of paying for 5236

May 24, 19 83 Tape No. 2461 so - 2 MR. MARSHALL: the Constabulary by the issuance of tickets, talking about bill collectors not connected with the Constabulary, that he is wandering further afield from the act. I wonder does the hen. gentleman know, after the weekend, what we are discussing. We are discussing the Uniformed Services Pensions Act, we are not in the Address and Reply and neither are we in the Budget Speech. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, I rule there is no point of order. There is a

section in that act dealing with the Constabulary and the hen. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is talking about the Constabulary. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thought the hen. gentleman was going to get up and call a quorum. At Question Period today ten ministers were absent from their seats,and the Premier was not here during_ Question Period today _. I thought they all miqht be bored. MR. MARSHALL: All on government o.us.-:i:ness: . MR. NEARY: . All on government busines -s:. MR. ROBERTS: All at _government expense. MR. NEARY: All at government expense, I thought they might be bored, Mr. Speaker.

I think it is outrageous, ten ministers missing when question Period started today. But I thank, Your Honour~ I think that was a very fair ruling. I do not wish to belabour this point, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: I tried to break your trend of thought. MR. NEARY: Yes, the hen. gentleman tried to break my trend of thought and he will have to try again. MR. ROBERTS: At least the hon. Leader of the Opposition has one,unlike the President of the Council. MR. NEARY: Right on. 5237

J:.lay 24, 1983 Tape No. 2461 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: And they can circulate all they like these little xeroxed thing they put on their desks today they can take some . comfort in that if they want to, but there is no way - MR. ROBERTS: If they had read The Daily News this morning they would have been shocked. MR. NEARY: Yes. They can take comfort in that. No doubt before the afternoon is over some hon. gentlemen on the other side will be up waving this bit of paper. Mr. Speaker, how far I got on my face - I could not get very far on my name so I had to get there on my face. MR. TOBIN: Or your brains. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, so no doubt they will take some comfort in that. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that this is a bit of a problem and it is something that I think the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) should address himself to. It is not a comdemnation. I am not condemning the Newfoundland Constabulary, as I said, I think they have a very tough job to do. We saw that on the weekend in the parks, Mr. Speaker, where these hon. gentlemen could not control the activities in Butterpot Park. But that is another subject, I know I cannot discuss this under this bill, Mr. Speaker.

But there is a real problem there 5238

May 24, 1983 Tape 2462 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: and I believe the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) should address himself to it. And, Mr. Speaker, han. gentlemen now will say, well,the Leader of the Opposition has some nerve to raise this because the next thing he will be watched, he will get all kinds of tickets. Mr. Speaker, I hope that is not the case, because I raised this matter in all sincerity. We have had a large number of complaints from ordinary people who think they are being unjustly dealt with. No doubt, Mr.

Speaker, in some instances they may have been speeding, in some instances they may have violated some provision of the Highway Traffic Act, but the fact of the matter is that we have to remember that the principle for law enforcement is to protect people not to go after them tooth and nail. That is not the idea of law enforcement , Mr. Speaker, to go after people and give them a ticket for something or other. The police are there to protect us. They are being paid to protect us, .not to get us in trouble, not to hide away and try to catch han. gentlemen speeding. Mr.

Speaker, I do not believe that is the purpose of the establishment of law enforcement in this Province. And I believe the han. gentleman should address himself to it. MR. ROBERTS: Han-:-fashion! JYIR. NEARY: Man-fashion, yes. If they are out in the open and you ~now they are patrolling, nobody questions that. They have to patrol the highways, we recognize that. No question about that at all. I am not questioning that. If they are there you should know they are there. As a matter of fact, I think there should be signs put up. I have seen signs on the highway 'patrolled from the air'. MR.

ROBERTS: You have never seen the air patrols though. 5239

May 24, 1983 Tape 2462 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: I have never seen the air patrol, it is probably just to put a scare in people. But the signs are there. I think there should be signs put up, 'this area is pa.trolled by the Newfoundland Constabularly', they should not hide away.

Does the hon. gentleman really think that it is right to hide in the bush, to hide down here by Bally Haly, two people sitting in a car.waiting for some little innocent fellow to come along who never broke the law in his life, never had a speeding ticket, never had a ticket in his life, to wait for him to come along and by and by on goes the red lights and the siren? The poor fellow nearly gets frightened to death.. 1 MR. RIDEOUT: ~. NEARY: .MR. RIDEOUT: to people? MR. NEARY: Did you ever see the RCHP do that to people? Pardon? Did you ever see the RCHP do that Yes, I have.

I saw it happen in Port aux Basques a few years ago,when they almost turned Port aux Basques into a police state, and I had to come out publicly and condemn them for it. And they stopped it. / They were stopping every car after eleven o'clock. Every car in Port aux Basques was stopped after eleven o'clock at night, and I did not agree with it~ They turned the place into a police state. Well,that is what is 5240

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2463 NM'- 1 MR. NEARY: happening now in the greater St. John's area, the same thing as Port aux Basques. Mr. Speaker, I commend the Newfoundland Constabulary for the fine job they are doi ng. I think they are doing a great job under difficult circumstances,but I think they should stop this harrassment and stop this policy of hiding in the bushes waiting to pounce on innocent drivers. They are there to protect us, not to intimidate us, not to provoke us, not _ to get us. in trouble.

I remember there some time ago I was stopped by the Newfoundland Constabulary, I was coming down Portugal Cove Road,and I was told by the constable that my licence had expired and that he would have to give me a ticket. I said, 'I am sorry, but my licence has . not expired' . At that particular point in time, Mr. Speaker, I had information that 20,000 Newfoundlanders, their licences had expired unknown to the people who had the licences, unknown to them. Probably other han. members of the Rouse were in the same predicament. I happened to cat ch mine. ·--- ,~- -- ~-~ -- -... -- ~- .... -------.-- .. MR.

ANDREWS: I was one. -------- ......... ·---. - .-".. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman was one. Well, I happened to catch mine and I had my secretary call Motor Registration and they sent me out a piece of paper, a temporary licence. But Motor Registration forgot to tell the Newfoundland Constabular~ so on their wheel over there, when they called in on the radio that night,'the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Neary, is driving without a licence', everybody on the Avalon Peninsula who had a policeband radio heard that.

I could visualize in my mind people listening to their police bands saying, 'There you go, there is the crowd who are up making laws, breaking them. Here is the Leader of the opposition driving without a licence." So what I did, Mr. Speaker, I went straight to Fort Townshend, I walked in and I asked for the gentleman in charge and I said to the gentleman, 'Would you mind checking to see if I have 5241

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2463 NM- 2 MR.

NEARY: a driver's licence?" So he went and checked the wheel or whatever it is they have over there, and he came back to me and he said, "I am sorry, Sir, but your licence has expired." So I put my hand in my wallet and I took out this piece of paper and I said, 'Well, what would you call that?' 'Oh,' he said, 'that is a driver's licence.' 'Well', I said, 'how long is it good for?' He said, 'Three years. ' 'Well' , I said, -• do you not think you should update your wheel?' And then I insisted that somebody get on the radio and call that constable and tell him that I --·· -· -·-· did have a driver's licence,because all these people who listened to the police bands had heard that I did not have a driver's licence.

I do not know whether they did it or not,but I asked them to do it, to call back so that all of the people who heard that I did not have a driver's licence would now hear that I had one. MR. WINDSOR: Have you got one? MR. NEARY: I certainly have got one. I happened to catch it. And the Minister responsible for the Environment ("Mr. Andrews) says he was in the same predicament. I do not know whether he caught his • MR. ADREWS: I caught it. MR. NEARY: He caught it on time. But there were . 20,000 Newfoundlanders in the same boat that the hon. gentle~an and myself were in.

There was confusion about the application that had to be sent back for your driver's licence and there were 20,000 in the same boat. And no doubt an awful lot of these people got tickets. I know some did. An awful lot of them got tickets ~they should not have gotten tickets,because the fault was with Motor Registration, But yet the police in the carrying out of their duties and their responsibilities had to issue a reprimand or a ticket because it was not shown on the wheel over at Fort 524 2'

May 241 1983 Tape No . 2463 NM - 3 HR . NEARY: Townshend, i.ri the police headquarters 1 that these people had a temporary licence, or indeed had renewed their licences. I think it is too bad that the police have to get that kind of name 1 Mr . Speaker 1 they have to get that kind of reputation . I do not like it 52 43

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2464 :MJ MR. NEARY: because I, as a member of this House, have an oath to pledge allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen and to uphold 1 law and order and so,therefore,I am all behind the Newfoundland Constabulary, I support them in their endeavours. I must say,they are doing a magnificant job on protection- what is they call that, these .·constables that have been seconded to - AN HON. HEHBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Your time is up. No, my time is not up yet. Oh, yes it is. - they work on the princ~ple of protecting people rather than allowing people to get in trouble, Mr.

Speaker. I know these are young rookies, they are eager. We are told they are operating on a guota• The hon. gentleman denied that a couple of years ago w·hen the former member for Grand Bank asked th.e hon, gentleman, now I would like to ask the hon. gentleman again ,do they ha~e a quota system? Are they expected to produce so much revenue to help pay for the expansion in the greater St, John's area?

If they are,then I would say that it is a pity, it is a sha,me,indeed,that the members of the Newfounqland Constabulary,who Q1ould be doing something more useful,should be spending their time harrasslng people for minor traffic offenses. You know, Mr. Speaker, a five dollar bill,or a ten dollar bill, or fifty dollars for a speeding ticket may not sound like much to hon. gentlemen there opposite,but it means a great deal to people who are on unemploYII\ent insurance and people in the low income bracket. Can you imagine get~ing hit with a fifty dollar speeding ticket? And that is happening to a lot of people, Mr.

Speaker, especially in the newer areas,where the Newfoundland Constabulary are now patrolling for the first time. I must say, Mr. Speaker, in all my experience on the Portugal Cove Road and the Torbay ~oad 5244

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2464 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: and the Kenrnount Road, in that general vicinity, that I have never seen as many squad cars, prtrol cars, patrolling that area as I see today. And, as I say~ I do not mind a bit - MR. WARREN: And Brookfield Road. MR. NEARY: - Brookfield Road the same way. I do not mind a bit the patrol cars driving up the road, back and forth, going behind people, wat?hing traffic, protecting the children when they are crossing the street, that is all fine and dandy, Mr. Speaker, but what irritates me is when they hide away. I do not think that is right.

Maybe I am wrong, I could be wrong, perhaps the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) ~ow when he stands in his place can convince me that I am wrong in saying that. The hon. gentleman might get up and say well, it does not make any difference how you catch a crook, how you catch somebody who breaks the law as long as you catch them. But there is something very demeaning about that, hiding in the bush or hiding in a gravel pit. MR. WARREN: In the ghost cars. MR. NEARY: And these ghost cars, that is another thing, Mr. Speaker. I mean, you know, they have to be something else. MR. RIDEOUT: You cannot see them. MR.

NEARY: No, that is right. All they have is a little gadget on their dash board that lights up, and the red light starts spinning around, the siren goes. 5245

4'!. May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2465 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, you know - MR. CALLAN: Everyone should have one. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will tell you what is happening in this Province,that an awful lot of people who can afford it are getting these gadgets that will tell you if radar is down the road. There is a little gadget you can get now, they they me they are illegal, but you can put it in your car and it will tell you if the police are parked or coming towards you with their radar. My han. friend, the member for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry), should talk to some ·of his constituents about the number of tickets that are issued down there right in the hon. gentleman's - I happen to be one of the hon. gentleman's constituents• AN HON. i<IE.:1BER: Did you vote for him? MR. NEARY: _Fortunately, I only got one ticket. Mr. Speaker; I am not complaining about that. AN HON. MEMBER: I Will have you barred fran the South Coast. MR. NEARY: Well, the hon. gentleman might be surprised. At least when the member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) represented that area - we complained one day to the hon. gentleman about snow clearing and I will tell you 'within ·the matter of a couple of ·h~s- MR. CARTER: Minutes. .---·--. MR. NEARY: No, not minutes, within the matter of an hour, I would say, an hour and a half, the hill was cleared. we have not had occasion to test the member for Mount Scio but if the occasion arises, I am sure, Mr. Speaker, some of the people in the area who are very close to me will not hesitate to call the han. gentleman. I hear an awful lot of complaints from the han. gentleman's constituents .. MR.

BARRY: I have not had any. 5246

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2465 JV - 2 MR. NEARY: No, the han. gentleman has not had any. t,ffi. BARRY : They are very few. MR. NEARY : Very few. Well he has had a few no doubt, Mr. Speaker, because this area is very heavily patrolled. And, as I say, I am not knocking the Newfoundland constabulary. ThP h~n. gentleman may say ----- -·- I am being contradictory right now, I am not. There are just certain policies that are being followed, procedures that are being followed by the Newfoundland Osnstabulary that I do not like. I do not like these unmarked cars and, Mr.

Speaker, I do not like cars hiding in gravel pits and hiding in the bush. I think that is demeaning, I think it downgrades, I think it lowers the image of the Newfoundland Gonstabula:.Y and I believe. it should be stopped. Let them go out and patrol man fashion, let them be visible, let everybody see them,because that is what they are there for,to protect us, are they not? t·ffi. l'lARREN: Let people see them. MR. NEARY: Let people see them. Maybe if people could see them they would not speed as much. Maybe ' they w~ ld- - keep their cars in better condition if they could see them.

This idea of getting caught,all it does is make people want to get revenge, to hit back at the Newfoundland Constabulary. I do not think they deserve that, Mr. Speaker. so I hope my remarks will not be misunderstood or misinterpreted by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer). I remember once, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) came into the House and told us how he was being harrassed, he was very adamant about it,and I do not think the fact that he raised it in the House helped his cause any. Maybe because I am 5247

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2465 JV - 3 MR. NEARY : raising it nO\.;,it \'lill not helr ~-- .. my cause any, Mr . Speaker. AN HON . MEMBER : Be caref~l driving home. MR . NEARY : I will, do not worry, I am always careful, Mr . Speaker . 0nce burnt twice shy that is the way I feel about it . The only thing is that if they are going to ticket me then they had .better be on safe grou nds . 5248

May 24, 1983 Tape 2466 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: That is the only thing I can say. Mr. Speaker, nobody likes to get a ticket, I suppose, but there are times when we deserve to be ticketed. I would like. to hear the minister's views on this matter of early retirement and whether police should be hidden away, whether they should have unmarked cars and this sort .of thing. I think that is a wrong procedure. MR. WARREN: And the portable breathalizer. MR. NEARY: The portable breathalizer - I do not know, I could take that too, I think. I really have no objections about the portable breathalizer.

But these two items - hiding away, sneaking around, two people sitting in a car. Mr. Speaker, you know, people who have come to me say, 'Well, you could rob a bank and there would not be a _policeman in sight but go down on the Cove Road or Kenmount Road or down on Brookfield Road and you will find them hidden in the gravel pits and in the bushes.' That is a criticism I have heard. Maybe it is not justified, maybe it is an unjustified criticism, but I hear it every day. And I believe it is something that the hon. gentleman should address himself to and recognize as being a real problem.

It does nothing for the image of the Newfoundland Constabulary. As a matter of fact, if anything, it damages the image of the law enforcement officers and I do not think they deserve that, Mr. Speaker, I think their job is difficult enough as it is. But let them come out man-fashion and woman-fashion,now that we have a lot of women in the patrol cars. Let them be visible so that people can see them and let them be friendly-and courteous and not, Mr. Speaker, step up to the window of your car as if you were living in Nazi Germany. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that that day will not come.

I hope they are better trained than that, 5249

May 24, 1983 Tape 2466 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: that they will not be snarky with you, that they will be ladies and gentlemen when they do approach you to inform you that you may have violated some provision of - MR. WARREN: Most of them are. MR. NEARY: - and most of them are; but you get the odd one who· is hq;ving a bad day, in a cranky mood, Mr. Speaker, got out on the wrong side of the bed, 5250

May 24, 1983 Tape 2467 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: things are not going well, he does not like his job and he will carre up to the window and be snarky and pompous and arrogant. MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: say about them. MR. NEARY: They are all afraid of you . Pardon? They are all afraid of you. No, they are not, Mr. Speaker. They are afraid of what you will If they have a friend, if the Newfoundland Constabulary and the RCMP have a friend,it is certainly in me, Mr. Speaker .. MR. CARTER: MR.

NEARY: You claimed that you are bein~ - I thought the sun was going to shine today and the hon. gentleman would be out in his savoury patch, Mr. Speaker. He must have it all in for the year. But I just thought I would make these few points, Mr. Speaker. This is a matter that has been bugging people in the new areas,since the expansion was announced by the hon. gentleman. Now I will be glad to take my seat , and if nobody else has any comments to make _ I am sure that the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) would care to clear up some of these matters that I have raised.

And I hope the hon. gentleman will accept my criticism · in the spirit in which it was given. It is not a condemnation of the law enforcement people, the law enforcement agencies, it is merely a criticism of some of the policies and procedures that they follow, Mr. Speaker. MR. CARTER: Who are you terrorizing now ~ MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman should know all about terrorizing from when he was in the Department of Education, the way he terrorized the staff in that department, 5251

May 24, 1983 Tape 2467 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker. Why does not the hon. gentleman get out that Xeroxed clipping from the rrorning news that he has there in front of him and wave that around now. I am waiting for sare hon. gentleman over there to pick it up. So I eagerly look forward, Mr. Speaker, to hearing what the hon. gentleman has to say about this matter of early retirement and these policies and procedures that I have talked about. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. nernbei" for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. CARI'ER: Now we will hear it, the . truth and nothing but the truth. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say a few words on the bill in response to my helpmate, . to the gentleman for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) let me say, of course, it will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and I apologize to him in advance if he is unable to recognize it or appreciate it. You know, I do not if people in the House realize that he and I do this dog and pony show by arrangement. I will leave it to Your Honour to decide which half of the pony he represents, but life would not be the same without him. And I want my hon. friend from St.

John's North to know that/ that life ~uld not be the same without him. MR. CARTER: Very boring. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I agree a tribute to the hon. member for St~ John's North is very boring and I am the very first to say that, but I felt that the hon. gentleman for St. John's North gets so little attention in the House and is so badly in need of a tribute that I should say these few modest words about him. 5252

May 24, 1983 Tape 2468 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: And I want him to know I am deeply grateful because whenever I lack the inspiration to carry on, I simply look at him and that tells me why I am opposed to the adninistration that he supports. Mr. Speaker, the bill before the House is one which is concerned with the Constabulary, as Your Honour established in a ruling. It deals specifically with a relatively narrow aspect of the Constabulary's activities and affairs.

I do not want to get too deeply into that narrow aspect but I do want to raise a point or two in connection with the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary generally. And I believe this is the only opportunity we are likely to have in this session of the House to raise, in this way, matters connected with the C~nstabulary, all the moreso since the infamous 'reform' put through by this government some years ago in which they took the debate on the estimates out of the House of A.ssernbly and moved it into committees. Mr.

Speaker, the Constabulary these last few years - and I think it probably goes back in its genesis, these reforms of which I speak to the halcyon days when Les Curtis was the Attorney General and then carrying on through the halcyon days when Alex Hickman, who is now, of course, Chief Justice Hickman, was the Attorney General, and I have no doubt that all of us will be rewarded with our hopes that under the present Attorney General, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) equally halcyon days will continue to bless the Constabulary.

But over the last period of years, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary has undergone a trans­ formation and, in my view, has gone from being a force constructed on a very out-dated and outmoded philosophy to one which now is a modern police force and, I think it 5253

Hay 24, 1983 Tape 2468 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: is fair to say, compares favour- ably with any force in any area - I was· going to say in any city of the size of St. John's but in any area of the size which the s::onstabulary now serves. I do not know how many people are within its p.resent coverage area, it is probably of the order of 200,000 or maybe a little more; add on Corner Brook and add on Labrador West a little bit down the road and the Constabulary will be directly policing about 250,000 people, which is getting close on to one-half of the people who live in this Province of ours.

So, as I say, I think they have gone a very long way from being a force which was efficient in its time - and I would not want to $ay the Constabulary ih the 1930s and the 1940s or 1920s or 1950s, for that matter, was not an effective and efficient police force for its time, but in the 1960s and 1970s and now on into the 1980s, the Constabulary either had to change or to wither on the vine and die. Fortunately, it has changed, 5254

r-1ay 24, 1983 Tape No. 2469 SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: and the change has been far more rapid than most of us realize. It was not so many years ago that the Constabulary had an internal rule that a police­ man's private affairs are really the subject of disciplinary action by the force. And that, of course, led to some notable and memorable conniptions back in the late '60s. But all that day is behind us,now we are running a professional and political force.

And I think that is very much to the credit of the Ministers of Justice who have had the wit to provide the funds necessary for that and the brains to do little else with the force except ensure that competent officers were appointed and let them get on with the running of the show. Because, of course, the whole point of a police force is that within the bounds set down by the law and by legislation, it must be left free to do its job without interference from politicians.

And I have no evidence, in fact all the evidence I have is the other way, I have no evidence at all to indicate that any ministe~ including the present minister, has done anything other than let the police force do what it ought to do and do it properly within its own terms · of reference. Mr. Speaker, though, there is one feature of modern police administration that we have not as · yet adopted in this · Province. And I want to take just a very few minutes this afternoon a.nd raise it· again with the Minister of Justice, it has been raised before.

Unfortunately, he has not seen his way through to sponsor this kind of chang~' I hope now that he will give it further consideration and if he will not agree now to do this, I hope that he will in the next year or so. I am speaking, of course, as the han. the minister has no doubt divined, I am speaking of a Police Commission. ,And I do not much care what name is put on it, a rose is a rose is a rose, but I do think there is much to be said in favour 5255

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2469 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: of setting up an impartial, non- partisan and responsible body- three, five,maybe even seven, but three or five people, I think, should be adequate - that would be charged with a dual combination really not charged with running the police force day to day. The Chief of Police and his Lieutenants or whatever they are now called - I cannot keep track of the nomenciature of rank, but his subordinate officers are the men and women to run the polic~ force day to day.

But charged with the supervision of it, a.nd, of course, that leads to the second point that a Police Commission would do 1 and that is to be both a check upon the police and a defence for the police. And both of those, I would say, Mr. Speaker, are of equal importance. The Police Commission if it is a sword is a two-edge sword,' it is one that cuts in favour of the way in which the police carry out their duties as well as cutting against the ~ay they carry out their duties.

I would not want anybody for a moment to be under the impression that a Police Commission would be solely and only designed to provide yet another means of disciplining police or of investigating complaints against the police, it is also a matter of enabling the police to defend themselves in a way they cannot do now. We have a professional force here.

They are providing a very good service, the calibre of their training has increased by- what? - a quantum of ten in the last fifteen or twenty years~ I think it is fair to say fifteen or twenty years -· ~--- -- ago they had minimal training, now all of the senior officersandall of the new recruits these last five or six or seven y·ears have had extensive training and I' 1 understand,as well,there is a lot of in-house or in-course training being given to the police officers on a regular and continuing basis. ~fuat we do not have, Sir, is some mechanism whereby a citizen who feels aggrieved by the treatment which he has received from the police force may take his complaint 5256

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2470 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: to an impart~al and knowledgeable body. I know we do have the courts. The~e have been several actio~s I believe in the courts this year, one or two criminal actions in which officers of the police force were defendants. If I recall correctly the charges were dismissed in the cases I am thinking of.

I may not have remembered them all ,but there were certainly one or two cases where members of the Constabulary were charged with crimin?l offences involving citizens with whom they dealt in the course of their police duties, I am not speaking of any member of the force who may have committed a criminal offence outside the scope of his police duties,and there certainly have been one or two ci~il actions where people have sued police off~cers for false arrest or some other offence under the civil law and sought compensation. That ~s not an adequate remedy I would suggest to the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer). It is not an adequate remedy because first of all it is expensive and time consuming for both the pol~ce officers involved and for the citizens involved. And 1 secondly, wh~le I am a firm believer in the advesarial process put through our courts, I am not sure it is the way in the first instance to resolve this k~nd of dispute and I suspect,as well,there are many questions, complaints, disputes of a lesser nature which are not pressed under the present system but wh~ch nonetheless ought to be looked at.

So I say to the minister -that such a commission would work both to help the police in doing their duties,because if somebody attacks the police, and I do not mean attacks them physically, but if somebody complains about them or criticizes them,and the police are no more above criticism, or no more immune from complaint that any of us, there is a mechanism by which the police can 5257

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2470 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: turn to a body and say, 'Here are the facts,' you know, 'hear it, decide upon it'. And similarly any citizen who feels · aggrieved,either that he has been harrassed by the police or been treated imprope-rly, is not put to the matter either of envoking the criminal process or alternately bringing a civil action against the policeman or the policemen, or policewomen,as the case may be, concerned. You know,Metropolitan Toronto has a most interesting setup brought in by the Government of Ontario.

Now I am not suggesting it is appropriate here, Metropolitan Toronto has twice as many people as the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador as a whole and in the scope of criminal activity if they are a ten we are about point one. But nonetheless they have gone so far as to set up a separate office, an officer who has a staff, and his job is to investigate any complaints against the police and then to bring in recommendations which are then dealt with according to th.e proce .ss set down by G'.lntario legislation. That is how far some jurisdictions have gone. I do not think we need go that far.

I think what we do need is a small body, three people would be ideal, they do not need to be full-time, they would presumably be paid only for the time they sit, much as would a board of directors or the Medicare Commission or twenty other groups we could name, the cost would be relatively minimal but a group to whom people could turn. I do not want to go over it again. I think the minister knows the point of what I am saying and has grasped it, whether he agrees with it or not remains to be seen, but I do want to say that I think it is of paramount importance, Mr. Speaker.

The P?lice are becoming more and more important,if that is the right phrase, in our daily lives. At least they are becoming more and more present. There are more and more police officers, there are more and more points at which the activities of the police, the duties of the police cross the paths of ordinary citieens, and this is going to continue to 5258

May 24, 1983 Tape No, 2471 MJ ,.. 1 MR. ROBERTS: be so. You know, a few years ago if you were driving home there was really no reason for a policeman to stop you unless your car was weaving back and forth across the road. Now,of course, we are into the age of the breathal:i,zer and the policemen have to have, I believe - I do not do criminal law and I do not want to reveal my abysmal ignorance of it 1 but as I recall,the police must have some reason to ask you to take the breathalizer.

But if he stops you because your headlight is out and he smells liquor on your - . breatfi,then that is reason enough and he surely should do it, The breathalizer has, in view, turned out to be a very valuable police tool, it has certainly cut the number of accidents in which alcohol was involved, reduced them, and it has obviously reduced the numbers of people who take a chance driving while they have got liquor aboard them.

But there are more and more instances, Mr. $peaker, where the activities of the police, the normal, proper,rout:i,ne and appropriate activities of the police intersect with the lives of ordinary citizens. There are going to be more and more instances of complaints. Now, I have no idea how many there are, I am not even sure to whom one complains now. I .suppose you could go to the Chief of Police and I am sure that the Chief would deal with the complaint as best he could on its merits without any fear of favour, you could go to the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) who I assume would have to refer the matter through the Chief of Police 1 or presumably you could go and start a criminal proceeding or a civil action. Neither of those is a very efficient ~nd effective method. I have dealt with the civil action, I have dealt with the criminal process . Going to the minister, or going directly to the Chief is really open to question because it is a matter of people investigating themselves. I am not saying that the Chief of Police :would be other than 5259

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2471 HJ - 2 :1-1R. ROBERTS: fair and fearless in an investigation but nonetheless it is an old saw that ~ustice must not only be done but rrust be Seen to be done. So, I would say to the minister that I think there is a case for this, not simply~ and I will leave it with this -not simply to investigate the police but to give the police a body, a group, to whom they can make reference, to whom appeals can be made.

And, :r w,il1 say to the minister that we are going to see more and more complaints, for whatever reason,more and more questions being raised, co~ents being made whether they are justified or not. In my view,the police force here in st. John's, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, which will soon become a Newfoundland Constabulary as opposed to a St.

John's Constabulary, which is what it has been really for - Nell really since the Rangers came in early in Commissio~.Back in 1934, I guess it was, the Rangers 'Were established in early 1934. '!he Royal Newfoundland - - ~ -- · Constabulary is going to be more and more part of life in this Province, and so it should be. !t is a first-class police force and I think we have every reason to be grateful for the work that the men and the women in it do but even with all that nobody, not I and not the minister or anybody else,could ever say that no policeman or policewoman will ever do something wrong.

We just cannot say that. !t is obvious that over the path of a number of years some will stray frorn 'the straight and proven path just as members of the House do, members of the Bar and members of Your Honour's profession, the optometrists- I am sorry, Your Honour, begging Your Honour's reverence, the ophthalmologists. I am in the right church but the wrong pew there am I not? -and~ are bourrl to . be c:anplaints, there is bound to be the odd bad apple. In fact, we have been very fortunate that there have been so very few here in Newfoundland.

A lot of metropolitian police forces have whole squads and divisions that do nothing other than investigate the police. We do not need that but what 5260 .·

May 24, 1983 Tape 2472 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: we do need I suggest is an independent commission made up of three, five, three would be enough, knowledgeable and impartial people who could serve as a forum where complaints could be dealt with, where they could be looked into and the appropriate recommendations be made.

And I am not suggesting that this commission be given any power other than an advisory or a recommending power • I am not so sure for the minute we should give them executive power, I think that we -should leave either to the police authorities who have quite an elaborate and well­ developed internal discipline code which they administer or alternately to the courts, the regular courts of the Province which could deal with it in the normal way. But I would say to the minister there is an in between area , there is an in between need to be met.

It is not being met now and I think a commission of the sort I have described would meet the need. I commend it to him on that basis, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (McKicholas) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will attempt to respond to the points made by both hon. gentlemen opposite, the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts).

First,on the pension matter . strictly speaking the policy now is that the three uniformed services are treated the same way in terms of pension,that is the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, the Fire Department, and the Correctional Service, the warder Service at the penitentaries, and that is a matter of policy and indeed appears to be a valid one. So they are treated the same in terms· of pensions. And the pension provision is that for a non-commissioned person retirement is at age fifty­ five or after twenty-five years of service, whichever comes 5261

May 24, 1983 Tape 2472 PK - 2 MR . OTTENHEIMER: fi r st , for commissioned officers at sixty, and that sixty will be applicable to everybody after the present incumbents have retired. But with the present incumbe nts they may continue until sixty - five, that is the chiefs and deputy chiefs , superintendent, deputy superintendent, the person at the head an.d the deputies, whatever they might be called in various services. 50 for the incumbents who did no-t know about this change corning , obviously nobody did until it carne , they may continue until sixty - five , When they are through, for all commissioned officers it will be sixty. 5262

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2473 NM- 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: The han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) asked, in many cases people are quite young when they retire because after age fifty-five, o! twenty-five years of service, obviously a person could be forty-five or forty-four, __., forty-three, forty-six, why such an early retire~ent?

The only answer r can give is that indeed this early retirement provision for organizations like the police force, or like a correctional service, are quite general across Canada, indeed across North America, very similar to the ones in the RCMP, very similar to ones in the federal correctional service, and indeed in other provincial correctional services.

And the reasoning has been, and this has been discussed in the collective bargaining context as well as far as the non-commissioned people are concerned, who are covered by collective agreements, and I think it is valid that it must be a profession or a career with a great deal of tension, a great deal of pressure, certainly, if one thinks of a correctional warden spending just about all his working days in a prison himself,and police officers, and I am not th -inking of the times they are giving out speeding tickets, but obviously in their other more difficult assignments, and it is a general practice across North America that there is early retirement for people in that kind of a stressful, if you wish, occupation.

Indeed it is throughout the armed forces, throughout the RCMP, throughout the federal correctional services, it is in other provincial police forces, and provincial correctional services. So that is the reason for it. Now, getting to the other matters of a more general nature the han. Leader of the Opposition was bringinq up 'the situation whereby traffic violators are at times apprehended through the use of unmarked cars, or through the mechanism of having police cars not visible by being off the road or parked . Both forces which do policing in Newfoundland, 5263

May 24 ; 1983 TapeNo. 2473 NM - 2 MR . OTTENHEIMER : the RNC, and the RCMP, use both methods, one, the visibility method where the patrol car is visible, is parked on the side of a road or at an intersection, or is cruising, is visible; and they also use the other method whereby a car is not marked, or is not visible. And the argument the hon . gentleman was putting forth is that we should only use the former, the visible part . The only answer I can give to that is that the more enforcement of traffic violations there is, I am thinking in terms of speeding and that kind of thing, I do not mean parking meters, 5264

May 24, 1983 Tape 2474 EC - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: the more enforcement of moving violations there is, the statistics show, the less incidence of highway accidents and that means obviously, the less incidence of the results of highway accidents which are death or maiming or whatever and that it has been proven effective as a means of enforcing moving traffic violations to not rely only, a.lthough it is an important aspect, on the visible and the marked car, but to rely, to make certain recourse also, to either the unmarked car or the car, although marked, not being visible.

And I suppose the reasoning behind it is that for those who have a tendency to speed, to drive carelessly - I think one of the worst offences that I see myself is passing where there is no visibility or inadequate visibility. People pass on double barred lines or pass on the highway where it is obvious they are not supposed to pass or where they do not have visibility. I think that is probably the most dangerous. MR. NEARY: not see that. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: If you are hidden away, you will Well, what I am suggesting is tha~ it has been found that having both methods of enforcement will cut down on traffic violations, because if you only have the visible, that being the police car visible to the motorist, and i£ he knows the only police cars around or 'the only way I am going to be apprehended is by a car which I will see parked by the road, parked at an intersection or cruising, then when I do not see one I can go ahead without any worry.' But when the potentially dangerous driver knows that not only are there police cars visible that he can see but there might be one parked where he cannot see it or that there might be one behind him ·or in £rant o£ him but unmarked as a police car, this is an added deterrent £or moving tra££ic violations.

And it is the moving tra££ic violations which 5265

May 24, 1983 Tape 2474 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: are the ones which cause death and cause maiming and cause hardship and it has been proven by statistics that the more rigorous the enforcement for moving violations - I am not talking about parking tickets - the more rigorous the enforcement of moving violations , the less highway and road traffic accidents there - are, and that is the rationale for it . I know nobody likes it. ·}IIR • NEARY : Drivers of cars coming toward you no1.,. will flick their lights on and · off to let you know they are hidden . MR . OTTENHEIMER: Well , that is fair enough, I guess.

Everybody is allowed to take 1.,.hat .precautions he can. MR. NEARY : Fair enough . MR. OTTENBEIMER: But the point I want to make is this that we are talking about that .small percentage of drivers who do drive dangerously; that is not only going over the speed limit but it is frequently passing where they are not supposed to pass o.r tailgating or doing all of these things. If that small percentage of, but 5266 "'

May 24, 19 83 Tape No. 2475 SD - 1 MR. OTTE NHEI ME R: potentially hazardous users of the road were of the opinion­ if I were to say here today, 'T .here will be no police cars except those that are marked and visible where the motorist can see them', then these fellows would have ~arte blanche to do what they can.

But if I say to them 'There will be the ones that you can see,which will be marked and visible, but there may also be a car on the _ highway which is unmarked and which you will not know if it is a police car or not, or there may be a car parked off the road or somewhere where you cannot see it', then they will hopefully think twice before risking their and oth .er people's lives by passing on the double lines or other hazardous practices. What I am giving is the reason for it. I just want to comment briefly on one point the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) made and that was he said to the effect that he hoped by giving out traffic tickets the government was not making up for the cost of expansion of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and were there quotas. Number one 1 I can say there are no quotas. And number two, certainly there is no policy for making up, by additional tickets,for expansion of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary.- If every instance in which we expand the Constabulary- in effect, we save a certain amount of money because the RCMP are not here free.

The RCMP in th .eir provincial policing in all areas of the Province except Corner Brook, in all areas of the Province under a ten year contract, which runs from 1980 to 1990, the cost escalates from 56 per cent in 1980 up to 70 per cent in 1990. So over that ten year period the cost the Province pays of the entire provincial bill goes from 56 per cent to 70 per cent and for Corner Brook, as in _any area where the population is in excess of 15,000 1 it goes from 80 per cent to 90 per cent. And these percentages 5267

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2475 SD - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: the Province pays. aecause some people think that in every area policed by the RCMP it is free.Now we have a vote of $27 million or $28 million or whatever it is in the Estimates for it, it is paid under a contract which is going up all the time.

And that percentage is not only for salaries and, you know, the police cars used in the Province and the equipment used in the Province,but it takes in a percentage of the whole superstructure of that organization - its training, its headquarters at Regina, its pension plans, the entire superstructure of a very large organization. Indeed the posting, if a constable is going to' be posted from Vancouver to Lewisporte, a percentage of that is paid by the Province.

So there is no additional cost to the treasury,because when the Newfoundland Constabulary go in, let us say they go into an area where there were twenty RCMP policing, when the Newfoundland Constabulary go in 5266

Ma y 24, 1983 Ta pe No. 2476 MJ - l MR . OTT EN HEI MER : there are twenty less RCMP, they are not added on on top. So certainly there is no justification there. And just breifly to comment on some points made by the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). certainly the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, and it is during the past three years that I am obviously most familiar with,has during that -period of time made substantial progress, since 1980 has made sustantial progress.

Some of the ma~n items in it are that now, of course, there are women as well as men, also, all vacancies are done through public recruitment, public advertisements -I guess hon. members have seen them- done through the Public Service Commission. There is no room for nepotism, there is no room for political interference. The same is true for the fire department and fbr the correctional service. It is all done through the Public Service Commission.

Sometimes people phone me and say,'You know, can you help so and so get in the fire departmen~ or get here or get in the police deparment.' And I say, 'I wish him well but all of this goes through the Public Service Commission,' and that is really the only way to do it. We had, I think, roughly forty positions for the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary advertised six, seven eight months ago whenever it was; I understand we had about 450 applications. So y~u can b ~_ ver¥ se~ective. MR. NEARY: You would not object to a I!Eillber writing a reccmrendation. MR. OTTENHEIMER: No.

If any member writes a recommendation and sends it to the Chief or the Public Service Commission fair enough, but these people, I am quite sure, will bring their individual assessments to it. So, there has been the public recruiting, the involvement of the Public Service Commission. We also,of course,have a training programme for every cadet, a five - five and a half months trainin~ programme at the Atlantic Police Academy in Prince Edward Tsland, · 5269

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2476 MJ - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Now, with respect to the point being made by the hon. gentleman of a police commission:' First of all, let me say that the last time the police commission concept was spoken about ih the House,and that was the former hon. member for Grand Bank-- actually, I believe he had something quite different in mind than the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). As I understood \'/hat he was saying then was a police commission as the agency to run the police, as an administrative agency.

You knm'l, you have the Department of Justice and the government would set up a police commission and then the Department of Justice would not have the responsibility, I suppose they must have some somewhere, but it would the police commission which would I run the police and certainly I did not agree with that. We only have two provincial forces in the Province, two forces doing provincial policing , the RCl~ and the RNC, and to bring in an administrative structure seemed to me to be totally inappropriate.

So, the last time .- the hon. gentleman for the Strait of Belle Isle mentioned about the police commission 1 what I was pointing out was the last time it was spoken about,and that was the former hon. member for Grand Bank, it was in terms of an organization or a body which would administer the police force and my opposition to that, or the reason 5270

May 24, 1983 Tape 2477 PK - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: I found it unacceptable was that we would be setting up an additional bureaucracy to run and manage the police force and that seemed to be unnecessar~ especially in a Province where we have tv10 police forces not a multiplicity • In Nova Scotia there are a eleven or twelve police forces, Halifax, Dartmouth, Antigonish,there are numerous police forces, and ten or twelve in New Brunswick as well.

But what the han. gentleman was referring to was not,as I understood it, an intermediary, a police commission to run the police, to manage the police, to be an administrative unit, but to be more of a body which could make review and recommendation upon citizen complaints~ In general, I think that would be it. It would be an impartial bo4y which would be in a position to hear and to make enquiries with respect to, and make recommendations with respect to complaints which might come from citizens in what they judge to be improper activities by the police.

I certainly agree that it is important to have an outside body " At times I get phone calls about an alleged instance where in somebody's opinion the police have not acted correctly and I have it followed through, ~ am sure the Chief does as well.

But we did in 1982 amend The Parliamentary Commissioner Act, The Ombudsman Act "with that in mind, and we did empower the Ombudsman to hear· complaints with respect to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary­ well,I will read the two sections because they are quite self-explanatory. 'Without limiting the generality of this act, where a person has a complaint against any member of the Royal Newfoundland Constabuiary that person may report.the complaint to the Commissioner', the Commissioner there, the Parliamentary Commissioner (Ombudsman) .

And then, Subsection (2) 'Notwithstanding any provision of this Act, the Commissioner', in other words the Obudsman,'may investigate, 5271

May 24, 1983 Tape 2477 PK- 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: review, recommend, and report with respect to any complaint made under Subsection (1) in accordance with the procedures set forth in this act. 5272

May 24, 1983 Tape No . 2478 NM- 1 MR. OTTENHEI MER; In other words,he would write the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and make recommendati .ons and indeed he would report to the Rouse on any matter which he wished to report in respect thereof. So I just point out that the Parliamentary Commissioner, the Ombudsman, is empowered to hear any complaints with respect to the police force, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary.

Now it may be that the day will come when the Ombudsman would be too busy or this would be too . - onerous, and there may be too many complaints, or he might have too many other things on his plate, but before -we MR. NEARY: Nobody pays any attention to the Ombudsman anyway. MR. OTTENHETMER: Well, I cannot help that. You know, I mean,the han. gentleman is there and he has certain statutory powers and he has been given the authority.

As I say, the day might come when he would have too many other things on his plate whereby he could not do it, and if that 'were the case then obviously one could think of another p~rson or body, whether it be a police commissioner or whatever you want to call it, to handle such complaints. aut the mechanism is there now through the Ombudsman. But I just again want to make the distinction, because the same term has been used in two different instances. When Mr.

Thoms was speaking about a police commission •, he was talking of an administrative unit, as I recall, and that we will regard as an unnecessary additidnal level of bureaucracy. The hon. gentleman for the Strait of Belle Isle _(Mr.

Roberts} is : speaking about it in terms of a board whic~ could review police action as a result of citizens' complaints and make recommendations with respect thereof and really what I. am saying is that that can now be done through the Ombudsman and if and when it appears that it is necessary to have another agency because the Ombudsman is too busy or for whatever other reason, then certainly another agency would be a 5273

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2478 NM - 2 Z.1R. OTTENHEIMER: possibility. But the mechanism is there now through the Ombuds,rnan. by hon. gen.tlemen . MR. SPEAKER (~ylward) : he,. clos.es the d.eoate. I think I have covered the ~atters ra~sed If the han . minist~r speaks nm._r The hen. Mini.ster of Finance. 5274 .:.

Nay 24, 1983 Tape 2479 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: I move second reading of the bill. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Uniformed Services Pensions Act," read a second time, ordered referred to Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 41). On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the ';·lhole on said bills, Hr. Speaker left the Chair. Cm:UHTTEE OF THE '\'JHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, before you proceed with business, perhaps I might suggest to the Committee that we adopt the same.procedures we have in other years, that is be governed by Standing Order 118, subsection 5 of that Standing Order with respect to the money bills on the paper, and what really in effect that means is be governed by the same rules as pertain now with respect to Committee of Main Supply, that is, fifteen minutes and fifteen minutes and then ten·and ten thereafter. MR. CHAIRMAN: DR. COLLINS: The han. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, the Committee will be dealing with what has been called the loan bill.

We nave a resolution before us and the resolution will subsequently hopefully give rise to a bill. The resolution itself is explanatory of the bill, I think, and that is: "that it'is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the raising from time to time. by way of loan on the credit of the Province the sum of $220 million and such additional sum or sums of money as may be required to retire, repay, renew or refund securities issued under any act of the Province." 5275

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2480 JV - 1 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, just a few words of explanation and there may be questions that need to be asked otherwise,but I would again point out that the loan bill does not include those monies that are required to roll over some of our previous borrowings. The loan bill is in addition to that. This loan bill today that hopefully the House will give assent to or give second reading to, is for the same amount as the loan bill of last year, 1982, where there was a similar amount requested,some $220 million. Just an indication of how that sum is arrived at, Mr.

Speaker. ~~~ budgetary requirements were for just over $200.3 million and that j amount included what we anticipate · would be spent on capital account plus the relatively small amount of deficits that we are projecting this year on current account. Mr. Speaker, to that amount of the budgetar y requirements, as I just mentioned, we have to add the amount that will be required for debt retirement and sinking fund requirements which do not have to be in the loan bill. So you have our budgetary requirements,the amount for debt retirement :and sinking fund will be just over $94.3 million.

Our total borrowings there will add up therefore to $294.6 million. Mr. Speaker, we already have authority to borrow from the Canada Pension Plan under another Ac ·t, and this is not imp~ired in any way when the 1982 Loan ACt expires, that authority continues under the Canada Pension Act, we have authority to borrow just over $52.7 million. So we have to take that $52.7 million from that sum I just gave you a minute ago of $294.6 million,and on that basis one would anticipate that the loan bill should be for $147.6 million~so if you would do it on that sum it would 5276

Nay 24, 1983 Tape No. 2480 JV - 2 DR. COLLWS: come to $147 .6 million.

The loan bill puts in an amount to give us flexibility, it puts in $72.4 million to give us flexibility and that flexibility is required because we only have the authority to borrow ,apart =rom the loan bill ,in terms of debt retirement as those debts are retired.And, of course, the debts are not all retired at the beginning of the year,some of the debts will not be retired until very late in the year ,and if we relied on that additional authority only we might find ourselves in a very tight position at some desirable point in the year when it · ~uld be a good idea from the Province's point of view, to borrow. so chere is that amount put in for flexibility,of $72.4 million.

Now, Mr. Speaker, it does not necessarily mean that the government exercises the full extent of the authority given, o:t.he authority is there but it does not mean we always use the whole authority up; the House does not allow the authority to be exceeded, of course, 5277

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2481 NM ~ 1 DR. COLLINS: but it does allow that flexibility. Last year, for instance, when the 1982 loan bill expi.res, and it will expire when the 1983 loan bill comes into effect, it expires immediately, there will be a residual amount of something between $35 million and $40 million left in the old loan bill - MR. NEARY: How much is left? DR. COLLINS: $35 million to-$40 million. So we still have that authority to borrow at this point in time. But that will lapse when the new loan bill comes into effect. Mr.

Chairman ~ I am quite sure there ~ay well be questions asked as to what were our borrowings last year . __ ., .. - --· ... in detail or perhaps what the public debt is and so on and so forth, but possibly the best way to have handled it would be _not to anticipate such questions but to leave my remarks as they are now and I will be in the position to answer any questions ; as they arise. I move the resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN (_Ayl:ward) : The hon -. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, the hon. gentleman is quite right in anticipating a number of questions and probably a few comments from members on this side of the House about the government borrowing for last year and for this year. Now, Mr.Chairrnan, let it be recorded that t~s is a record amount that is being borrowed by the administration. They are asking the House to approve borrowing to the -extent of $294.6 million of which -the hon. gentleman tells us that $72 . 4 million is for flexibility.

In other ~rds, the administration / are asking for a cushion, they are asking the House to approve $72.4 million in case of any emergency that may crop up. When the House is not sitting the hon. gentlemen will be able to go out and borrow the money if loans become due or they have to meet 5278

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2481 NM..,. 2 MR. NEARY: their debt. Now, the hon. gentleman also told us that last year there was an amount of $35 million to $40 million provided for in the loan bill whi .ch was around the $220 million. There was an amount that they did not borrow .. Now, could the hon. gentleman just make a note of this, · one of the questions I want to ask the hon. gentleman, will this amount be indeed borrowed before the new loan bill comes into effect? Have the government completed their borrowing for the year? Will they be looking for this $35 million to $40 million?

Have they made any arrangements to float that loan, to borrow that amount of money before the new loan bill comes into effect? Now, Mr. Chairman, the administration over the last few months, and indeed in the last couple of years, have been boasting about the fact that the credit rating of this Province has not been affected in the last year or two. Well, our credit rating, Mr. Speaker, is so low,_ or so high I suppose is the right way to put it, our credit rating is so bad that if you tampered with it at all that it may just put the Province in a terrible financial bind. 5279

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2482 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: It is very unlikely that the credit rating unless something drastic happens, something unforeseen happens that the credit rating will be tampered with,because there is no room to manoeuvre with Newfoundland's credit rating, Mr. Speaker. We have the worst credit rating in the whole of Canada. And to change the credit rating, I think,would mean bankruptcy for Newfoundland. That is what it would mean, it is so bad, our credit rating. Now, Mr. Speaker, we also have the highest per capita debt in the whole nation.

Our total debt at the moment is around $3.5 billion or $3,500 million, $3.5 billion is our provincial ·debt. This is j~st about $7,000 for every .man, woman and child in this Province. A child who is born since the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins} just spoke, any child born after that will be in debt ~lmost $7~000, the day it is born. That is the highest per capita debt in the whole nation. MR. TULK: How much was it when that supposedly wasteful Liberal government - MR.

NEARY: When that wasteful Liberal government, that much maligned Liberal government was in power the personal per capita debt I believe was around $1,200 or $1,300. MR. TULK: So in ten years we have had an increase of (inaudible) MR. NEARY: per capita debt - MR. CALLAN: MR. NEARY: Yes, in ten years the personal Eleven years. In eleven years, the personal per capita debt has jumped from around $1,200 or $1,400 up to almost $7,000 for every man, woman and child in this Province. MR. TULK: That is an increase of 500 per cent. 5280

May 24, 1983 Tape No.2482 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: That is an increase of 500 per cent in eleven years. And that is pretty heavy stuff, Mr. Chairman, pretty serious. MR. TULK: And they are supposed to be developing the Province. What have they developed? MR. NEARY: I would not mind, Mr. Chairman, if for that $3.5 billion we had anything to show for it. HR. TULK: They have nothing. MR. NEARY: They have nothing to show for it, there are no new industries, no new mines opened. Mr. Chairman, I noticed over the weekend a certain - MR. TULK: And the government cannot even give us a commitment to help some lobster fishermen.

MR. NEARY: That is right. A certain gentleman who writes editorial comments in one of the newspapers, who is a notorious Tory, writes a column in one of the daily newspapers in this Province was highly critical, very critical of the administration. Now, what was he critical of the administration for? MR. TULK: Is that the one that carne over the weekend? MR. NEARY: That is the one that carne over the weekend, yes. MR. TULK: Even the Tories are aware of it. MR.

NEARY: _ As a matter of fact, there were three editorials in the newspapers over the weekend and, of course, there was one today - to count it to three there is one today which is a different topic. AN HON. MEMBER: That one tells the truth. MR. NEARY:· Yes, that one tells the truth, the others do not tell the truth. Mr. Wick Collins does not tell the truth, the Editor of The Evening Telegram or Th.e Daily News do not tell the truth. Mr. Rowe is the only 5281

May 24, 1983 MR. NEARY: Chairman. MR. CALLAN: MR. NEARY: in too, Tape No. 2482 SD - 3 one who tells the truth, Mr. What about Michael Harris? Michael Harris had a beaut 5282

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2483 MR. NEARY: "Off colour humour just does not pay". We should have circulated that one and laid it on members' desks today, it was in Friday's Globe and Mail. I draw that one to the attention of han. gentlemen there opposite. so bad - MR. TULK: Now, Mr. Chairman, it would not be Do you mean t~ say they wasted that Xerox paper to send that over, what Bill Rowe wrote? MR. NEARY: Oh,yes. That was somebody on the opposite side. MR. TULK: Whoever did that over on the other side should have it deducted from his salary. MJ - 1 MR.

NEARY: Somebody whose mind is just as devious as the author of that article, just as devious. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. BUTT: A former Leader of .the Liberal Party. MR. NEARY: I knew before the afternoon was over, Mr~ Chairman, that I would get a rise from gentlemen there opposite. MR. WARREN: What happened to Mr. Greene I wonder? HR. NEARY: MR. CALLAN: HOW is he!? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CALLAN: MR. TOBIN: they were elected too. MR. NEARY: Who? What about Frank Moores? What is he? He was elected too. Yes, is that right? Those sent from Burin-Placentia West, Mr.

Chairman, I knew I would get a rise out of them before the afternoon was over. We may as well have it out now, because it will lay there - 5283

May 24, 1983 MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 2483 It is like throwing out ba£t. That is right. You throw them .M J -,. 2 out the bait and they take it down, they gobble it down hook, line and sinker, Mr. Chairman. Maybe I have gotten pretty far on my face, Mr. Chairman, but I know other people who have gotten pretty far on their name. MR. TOBIN: "Steve is now a harmless, burnt-out case". MR. CALLAN: That is the fellow who wastes · taxpayer dollars. They are after you. MR. TULK: The cub from Burin-Placentia west. MR. CALLAN: I beard you on the radio telling lies, over the weekend. MR. NEARY: But anyway 1 Mr.

Chairman, now that they have taken the bait, they have gobbled it down, let them have their little · say now and then we will get back to the public debt. MR. TOBIN: I spoke the truth. MR. WARREN: House the other day. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : You did not reven tell the truth in the Order, please~ Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Order~ The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I was going to say that this- MR. TOBIN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the han. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR.

TOBIN: r think the han. member for Torngat Mountains just made an accusation that was loudly heard in this House, that I lied to this han. House and I think he should be asked to withdraw. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Neary. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the han. Leader of the Opposition. '5284

t-1ay 24, 1983 Tape No. 2483 MJ - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr . Chairman, we do not have a member for Torngate Mountains in this House, that is one thing , and the other thing is, ~tr . Chairman, I would suggest that Your Honour consul t with Hansard before ruling on that kind of a thing. The hen. gentleman was not even in his seat. Be rushes back to his seat and he gets 5285

May 24, 1983 Tape 2484 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: up on a point of order, something he is alleged to have heard somebody on this side of the House make a comment on, Mr. Chainnan, So I would say there is no point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! To that point of order, I will look at Hansard to see what comments were made, and I will rule on it in trne. MR. NEARY: Anyway, I started to talk about this gentleman who wrote the column. Now,what was the criticism of the administration? The criticism of the administration was that they had mismanaged and neglected the Newfoundland and Labrador economy.

The gentleman even went as far as to say that he was rather surprised at the impact, the consequences, the long-term consequences of the teachers dispute, that he more or less implied and agreed with the Premier that this matter would blow over, that the teachers would not remember. Well,now, Mr. Chairman, the only thing I can say to that is we will have to wait and see.

I remember another occasion in this Province when the teachers did not forgets As a matter of fact, the teachers claimed credit to a large degree, for rooting out the twenty-three year old Liberal administration in this Province, that was here from 1949 right up until 1972. The teachers claimed credit for that. And I have a feeling, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Collins may be wrong on that. I think the teachers will remember. But,anyway,that is neither here nor there, we will just have to wait and see, only time will prove whether he is right or whether he is wrong.

But on the state of the economy that ·seems to be the cruc ia l point, that seems -to be what everybody"in Newfoundland and·Labrador is talking about today, the state of the Newfoundland economy. And if there is one thing the administration can be condemned for and criticized for is their mismanaging the Newfoundland and Labrador economy 5286

May 24, 1983 Tape 2484 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: and mismanaging our natural resources. Our debt is $3.5 billion or almost $7,000 per every man, woman, and child in this Province and we do not have a single thing to show for it in the last eleven years. No new mines, no new industries started, no meaningful businesses started in this Province - MR. CALLAN: No new minds, m-i-n-d-s. MR. NEARY: - that can generate new dollars, Mr. Chairman. And therein lies the problem. The debt is going up. The administration have done nothing to curb the debt. They are burying their heads in the sand.

They are just carrying on as if the money was going to roll in. They based all their hopes on offshore oil and gas. They went to the voters in this Province on April 6, 1982 in a one-issue election. There was only one issue. Now remember they had 33 seats in this House, 33 , and they went back to the voters to ask the voters to give then a mandate to negotiate an offshore agreement, Mr. Chairman. And the reason you have forty- four members sitting on that side of the House today is - MR. HODDER: There are only twenty there now.

MR. · NEARY: - because the people agreed to give the present Leader of the administration , the Premier, a mandate to negotiate an offshore agreement, and they have not even done that. 5287

May 24, 1983 Tape 2485 EC - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN {Aylward) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, as Mr. Wick Collins said over the we~kend, if there were an election today - now that gentleman is not known to be very complimentary towards the Liberals or the Opposition - he said if there were an election today, it would be a different story. The hon. gentleman thinks through his pork barrelling and his political patronage, the hon. gentleman thinks that by filling up the jobs in the Summer with people from his own /district that that is going to get him re-elected.

What the hon. gentleman does not realize is that for every person he puts in a job, he makes a hundred enemies. The hon. gentleman should realize that. So here we are now, Mr. Chairman, into a situation where the government wants to borrow $294.6 million, our debt is $3.5 billion or $7,000 for every man, woman and child in the Province, and in the last eleven years they cannot point a finger at one significant activity, they cannot point a finger at one major development in this Province, and that is the whole problem with this administra­ tion, Mr.Chairman.

That is why they can be so severely criticized, they have not delivered, they have not produced. The state of the Newfoundland economy is in a horrible mess. We have record unemployment, especially among young people who cannot find jobs. MR. CHAIRMAN: elapsed. MR. NEARY: crack at it, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon. member's time has Well, maybe I will get another The hon. the Minister of Finance. 5288

May 24, 1983 Tape 2485 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) raised some points, I suppose I may as well answer them as we go along just very briefly. The han. member says we are borrowing - the loan bill is a record amount. As I indicated, it is not a record amount, it is the same amount as last year.

He mentioned about the cushion, and he is quite right, you could look upon the extra amounts thatwe have added on as somewhat of a cushion, but as I explained, it is to give us the flexibility that we really do need and also, if circum­ stances were particularly good, it would allow us to pre­ borrow for next year. But the circumstances would have to be very good for that. He also asked whether we intend to borrow on the amount that is left in the 1982 loan bill. Mr. Speaker, no, for two reasons: The amount is relatively small.

We usually do not borrow for a lesser amount than $15 million, it is just not administratively efficient to borrow for less than that at any one time and there is not that amount left in the 1982 loan bill, but also, of course, one hopes that the 1983 loan bill will be adopted very shortly and the 1982 loan bill will expire at the same time. The han. the Leader of the Opposition said our credit rating is the worst in Canada and it could not go any lower. Well, it certainly could go lower, 5289

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2486 JV - 1 DR. COLLINS: very definitely it could go lower. In some respects it is not even the worst in Canada. With some credit rating agencies in the United States, yes, there is no province lower than ours,but the Canadian credit rating people have given us ratings similar , for instance, to P.E.I. and to Nova Scotia and so on. Our credit rating is -low and our aim in this administration is to get it up and I think we will in time.

But certainly we were holding our own extremely well 1 which other provinces have not been able to do,and in some respects we are not any lower than some other provinces in the same position as ourselves. He mentioned the per capita debt, $7,000; if you .want a precise figure I do have it here, it is not $7,000.

In actual fact, at the present time,if one includes the indirect debt as weil as the direct debt, that is the debt that is guaranteed by the Province but is held by the Crown Corporations and so on and so forth and guarantees we have given to certain businesses, for instance, the fishing industries who need these guarantees to be able to pursue their activities,especially in difficult financial times, if you roll these all in, ~t the end of March · 31, 1983, the per capita debt was $5,940; the direct debt was $3,494 and the indirect debt was $2,446 and those figures added will give you $5,940 per capita. M.."{.

TULK: But what is that per capita debt? DR. COLLINS: I just told you. I just told you. The per capita debt - the direct debt is $3494, that is the direct debt,and the per capita debt indirect is - MR. NEA&Y: (Inaudible) thousand divided into the public debt and what do you get? DR. COLLINS: Are you talking about the ,public sector debt? The total public sector debt, I presume. 5290

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2486 JV -2 MR. TULK: No, the public debt. DR. COLLINS: There is a difference. Hen. members opposite may not knmY' this but there are two· aspects of public sector debt and they are very different from each other Al.~ HON. -MEMBER: DR. COLLINS:· is $5,940. HR. CALLAN: DR. COLLINS: MR. CALLAN: DR. COLLINS : member said. MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: It is a provincial debt. The· public sector debt per capita aow much? $5,940. $5,940? Yes, not $71000 as the hen. Is the indirect de.bt in that? The indirect debt is in that. Mr. Chairman, _the hc:m. me~ers opposite obviously do not know what they are ta~Jdng about so I will leave that subject. 5291

May 24, 1983 Tape No. 2487 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: there are a lot of interruptions over there. I notice most of the interruptions are from that side of the Rouse. I do not think the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) needs those Charlie McCarthy