Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 37 (27th Legislature, 5th Session)

27-5-37

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 10: 00 o'clock, Friday, March 11th, 1966 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presen ting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Int roduction of Bills Committee of the Whole House 853 HON. J" B.

CARROLL (Minister of Welfare)(The Pas): I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the proposed resol utions stand ing in my name and in the name of the Honourable the Minister of Labour. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole House with the Honourable Member for Winn ipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR .

C.ARROLL: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been informed of the sub ject matter of the proposed resolutions, recommends them to the House. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The first resol ution before the committee is: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Child Welfare Act by providing, among othe r matters, authority for the Director of Welfare to place a person in a home to care for a child that has been left without any person to look after and care for him, the cost of which and of certain incidental expenses incurred in connection with which will be paid from and out of the Consolidated Fund. The Honourable the Minister of Welfare. MR . CARROLL: Mr.

Ch airman, there a re occasions when children are found abandoned or where situations come to the attention of child welfare authorities or the Director of Child Welfare, that children appear to have no one looking after th em . At the presen t time the only recourse the societies ha ve, or the Director, is to apprehend the children and take them into the care of the Society on a temporary basis until the situation can be finalized.

This would enable the Sor:!iety or the Director to place a temporary homemaker until such time as the situation can be resolved and does have the beneficial effect of not having to take the children into custody and may in fact prevent a breakdown in a home situation. MR . DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, I'd be interested to know though how long is temporary in this case, and what is the procedure after this action has been taken?

I'd also be interested to know if the question of children being placed out with foster parents or others to care for them or something of that kind, is authorized along with the Director taking the custody of the children. And that question in turn brings up the third one . Is the matter of the authority being given to place children with folks who have a different re ligion to that in which the child was born or brought up, involved. MR . CARROLL: If th ere are no other questions, Mr.

Chairman, the authority being re quested here is to place a temporary homemaker in a situation for a period up to 15 days, but the placement is to be confirmed within four days by applying to the courts for permission to continue the temporary placement, with a full explanation of the facts as they are known to the Director or the child-caring agency at that time. This will prevent or will relieve the Society of the neces sity of having to take the children into custody and thereafter making the kind of placements tb.at were mentioned by the Member for Lakeside.

In this way, we don't take cus tody of the children, we merely place the homemaker in the home situation, during this tempo rary period, hoping that in the interval the situation can be resolved satisfactorily -t he parents can be found, possibly one of the parent s may be away working in the northern parts of the province and the mother may have been taken temporarily ill and rushe d to the hospital, th ereby leaving the children unattended or there are many othe r variations of this situation that can apply.

And rather than taking the children in and having to place them in foster home s, this means that we can keep that home situation together, keep the children with their brothers and sisters until such time as the facts can be resolved and the situation dealt with in a planned and more satisfactory manne r. Therefore the question of foster home placement or differences of religion wouldn't arise.

854 March 11, 1966 MR . J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Does this mean then that this will not be subject to the other Act which was mentioned by the Member for Lake side, in connection with religion? MR . CARROLL: This would be an amendment to The Child Welfare Act that does also deal with the religious aspects of the situation, however the religious question doesn't become involved in this particular situation. It's an emergency situation in which we can place some body, a substitute mother or whatever you would like to call her, to look after those children for a short period of time.

It could be as much as 15 days, it could be extended by the courts, but presumably the situation might normally be resolved within the first few days of this situa tion. MR . FROESE: A further question -but once it's considered by the courts, then this other would apply, would it - the matter raised by the Member for Lakeside? MR . CARROLL: It would only apply if it was found necessary to take temporary custody of the children by the Society or by the Director. Then the other provision s of the Act would apply. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed.

The next resolution before the Committee: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Labour Relations Act by pro viding, among other matters, (

a) for inquiries to be conducted by The Manitoba Labour Board into certain complaints, the cost of which will be paid from and out of the Consolidated Fund; and (

b) for the remuneration and expenses of a mediator to. be paid from and out of the Con solidated Fund. • The Honourable the Minister of Labour. HON. OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour)(Osborne): Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend the Leader of the NDP Party says to explain. I don't really believe .. . MR . S. PETERS (Elmwood): I'm not the leader yet. MR . BAIZLEY: Sorry . . . . . . This resolution is self-explanatory. We hope to change the procedures in unfair labour practices for the few that we have here in Manitoba, that the Manitoba Labour Board may take direct action.

We would also like to encourage the use of mediators, and if the parties can agree on a mediator, we would ask that the expenses be paid from Consolidated Revenue. MR . PETERS: .. .. . the reason I asked the Minister to explain -I have Bill 53 in front of me and in the resolution it says "for the remuneration and expenses of a mediator to be paid from and out of the Consolidated Fund." I have this bill in front of me that -Subsection 7 of it, or

Section 7, says this very thing. Now I don't know if we've got this bill ahead of time or do you have to put that in every time you bring in a resolution on The Labour Relations Act. I think once should be enough. MR . BAIZLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I believe the reason this first reading is preceded by the resolution is because of a message from His Honour requesting the government to make certain payments on behalf of what we hope to enact. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson): .... . by government. We are getting used to those now, aren't we? Mr·.

Chairman, the Honourable the Minister of Labour I think in his remarks dealing with the question of the mediator, if I heard him cor rectly, says that where the parties agree to a mediator, then the expenses will be paid for out of the Consolidated Fund. In other words, there must be agreement as to a particular mediator. What if there is not agreement insofar as a mediator is concerned? Does the government pay for that mediator, if one is decided upon? MR . BAIZLEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe we would appoint a mediator if the parties couldn't agree. MR . PAULLEY: I beg your pardon.

Do you mean to say that if the parties couldn't agree in a dispute to a mediator, that there wouldn't be a mediator? Then, the only way- the dispute would be by strike eh? MR . BAIZLEY: Mr. Chairman, I think my honourable friend is just a little ahead of us here this morning. If the parties couldn't agree on a mediator and it was deemed advisable, we would appoint an industrial inquiry commissioner. MR . PAULLEY: Who would be paid by the government? In other words, what I am getting at is that it just doesn't stop the way it was suggested here. MR . ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister clarify something for me .. What was the practice before this amendment was brought in? MR . BAIZLEY: You are referring to the unfair labour practices, I presume? MR . GUTTORMSON: ... .. says the mediator.

March 11, 1966 855 MR . BAIZLEY: Oh the mediator. Well the parties of course could go to mediation but they would have to pay the expenses of the mediator themselves. . MR . GUTTORMSON: Oh but that's the different -now the expenses will be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. Thank you. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I understood the Honourable Member for Elmwood to suggest that this provision, or these provisions, are contained in a bill that is already be fore us? _ _:![Interjection)-- Well, is .... MR. CHAIRMAN: .... the Honourable Member for Lakeside that this bill has been distributed in error. MR .

CAMPBELL: Pardon? MR . CHAIRMAN: That bill has been distributed in error. MR . CAMPBELL: That's the point ..... MR . CHAIRMAN: .... error in the Clerk's Office. MR . CAMPBELL: That's. the point that I was going to raise. If we already have the bill before us, before even the message has been received, it definitely is an error. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. MR . CHAIRMAN: Madam Speaker, the Committee has adopted certain resolutions and has instructed me to report same and request leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR . JAMES COW AN, Q.

C. (Winnipeg Centre): Madam Speaker, I move, seeonded by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, that the report of the Committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . CARROLL introduced Bill No. 27, An. Act to Amend The Child Welfare Act. MR . BAIZLEY introduced Bill No. 53,

An Act to Amend The Labour Relations Act (1). MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. HON. MAITLAND B. STEINKOPF, Q. C. '(Provincial Secretary and Minister of Public Utilities)(River Heights): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to table a brief that was recently presented to the Government of Canada by the Province of Manitoba to do with the northern television transmission in Manitoba. MR . LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to address. a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General.

I'd like to .know if he's changed his mind. Does he feel that there is organized crime here in Manitoba? And then secondly does he feel that there could be a conflict of interest by appointing a practising criminal lawyer as a special counsel for his crime investigation? Would you like me to repeat the question? I'd like to know if you've changed your mfud; if you feel there is any organized crime existing here in Manitoba? That's the first question. Second question: Do you feel that there could be conflict of interest in appointing as a special counsel a practising criminal lawyer? HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q.

C. (Attorney-General)(Dauphin): Madam Speaker, if the honourable member is referring to the most recent and certainly very intriguirig case, I believe there is reason to believe that while that particular alleged offence was organized, it was not syndicated. I would be curious to know what sort of a lawyer the Honourable Member for St. Boniface would appoint, except one experienced in criminal law practice for the pur poses for which we were appointing him. MR . DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I would be very pleased to answer this question if I may.

I would appoint a full time lawyer, a man that would devote all his time to doing this. I wasn't referring to any special case; I just asked the Honourable Minister if, in his mind there is organized crime or syndicated crime. At one time he gave us the definition of both meaning the same thing. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier and Provincial Treasurer)(Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg leave to lay on the table a Return to Order of the House No. 7 on the motion of the Hon ourable Member for Gladstone. HON.

WALTER WEIR (Minister of Public Works)(Minnedosa): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to lay on the table a Return to an Order of the House No. 5, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Gladstone.

856 March 11, 1966 MR . CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the. Day are proceeded with I would like to ask the Honourable the Provincial Secretary if copies of the brief that he just laid on the table of the House will be distributed to all the members? MR . STEINKOPF: Yes, they will be distributed shortly. MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister. There is an item contained in the Throne Speech in reference to automobile insurance.

Prior to the commencement of the House I filed with the Clerk a resolution dealing with the matter of automobile insurance, about six weeks or more ago. I wonder if the Honourable the First Minister could indicate when he may be laying before the House the proposals contained in the Throne Speech in order that we may proceed or otherwise with the resolution standing in my name. MR. ROBUN: I thank my honourable friend for the question and say that I hope that something will appear in Votes and Proceedings l1ext week on this matter. MR .

GUTTORM(30N: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister. Has he received any information as a result of the Thompson Inquiry? There was a report in the Winnipeg Tribune yesterday to the effect that the Winnipeg request had been turned down. Has the Minister any knowledge of the report? MR . ROBUN: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question. I'm afraid I ol1ly know what I've read in the newspaper, and if it's true, I for one will be bitterly disappointed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Mem ber for Glad stone. MR . NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: l. The number of feet of lumber purchased by the Provincial Government from Riding Mountain National Park in 1964 and 1965. 2. The amount paid for the lumber in each of the above years. 3. Whether this lumber is being used for the construction of bridges. 4. If so, what type of treatment is being used on the lumber.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Mem ber for Assiniboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: l. ·All monies paid to M. L. A. 's other than their indemnity or expense allowance for the years 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964 and 1965. 2. For what purposes was the said money paid. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion .... MR.

ROBUN: Just a comment before accepting the question, Madam Speaker, and that is to say that it will take some time to produce the information. I want the member to be warned of that. MR . DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, will that be before or after the election? MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Rhineland. MR .

FROESE: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing : The per diem rates charged by each of the hospitals in the Province of Manitoba for the years 1963 to 1966, inclusive. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the Proposed Motion of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR .

GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, if anyone wishes to speak on this Order we would have no objections to him doing so. MADAM SPEAKER: Anyone wishing to speak? MR . GUTTORMSON: We would then ask the matter to stand if no one else wishes to speak.

March 11, 1966 857 MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed to stand? The adjourned debate on the Second Reading of Bill No. 7. The Honourable the· Attorney-General. MR . McLEAN: Madam Speaker, may we have leave to have this matter stand? MR . R.OBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education that Madam Speaker do now leave the' Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into. a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR . R.OBLIN: Mr.

Chairman, before the Committee commences its deliberations may I take the liberty of pointing out that we have now passed 32 hours in the Committee of Supply and have dealt with only two of the departments and if it appears from events of the next few days that we do not come within striking distance of our 80 hour limitation in the Committee, I want to give notice that we will be moving to return to the old rules, because obviously these are not going to work if members do not deal with the business of the Committee more ex peditiously. l'rri not complaining about that; I'm merely advising the Committee of our inten tions if it appears that we are not going to be able to make this thing work.

MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I can appreciate the concern of the Honourable the First Minister in this matter because it does seem that we have taken some time. However, he's not entirely accurate, Mr. Chairman in saying that we have dealt with only two depart ments. We have dealt with two and we've made a good start on the third one. As a matter of fact such a guod start on the third one that I would prophesy that my honourable friend the Minister of Education is going to get his salary voted probably before the weekend adjournment and that's some progress.

But it has been traditionally the case, I would think not always, but traditionally, that agriculture and education take a long time, and while I always felt that the limitation was rather drastic, yet I would say to my honourable friend the First Minister, don't give up hope yet. Something might happen. We can get that spring feeling and something might - the log�jam might break some of these days. My honourable friend the Minister of Education is so diplomatic and courteous in handling his estimates· that probably there 'll be quite a break through soon. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface.

MR . DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, last evening when it was time to adjourn, I was discussing the question of the teaching of French and so on. Well, I know that we -the Honour able Leader of the NDP has asked for certain questions and I have the assurance that this will be tabled in the very near future and this of course should answer, I hope anyway that certain recommendations by the government would answer part of my question and I hope that the Minister when he rises later on to answer the different questions will be able to throw some. more light inLto this. If you remember, Mr.

Chairman, the main thing that I felt was that we should try to work together on this thing, that it wa:s a very important subject for the unity of Canada and Manitoba here. I felt that everybody should have a chance to learn French, not only those whose mother tongue was French. Now one of the reasons why we're having trouble is there's a lack of good teachers, French teachers, and in the "Highlights of the Past Year" the document that the Honourable the Minister of E:ducation had placed on our desks a few days ago, in the Teacher Retraining (

c) there's in-service training in the teaching of French and an enrollment of 244 teachers; 62 were in St. Boniface and 182 were at the Teachers College in Tuxedo. Mr. Chairman, I would like to get a lot more information than this and I would ask the Honourable Minister if he can explain this. Tell us what kind of teachers they're having there and the hours of this course, and so on; because I think it's certainly inadequate, the provision that the government has made for the training of French teachers I think is lagging far behind.

I mentioned in 1963 and again in following years that this could be corrected, that it would be very easy to ask the St. Boniface College for instance, which is now presently affiliated with the University of Manitoba, to take part, to become part of the teaching college, or branch, whatever you may want to call it. Now I took the liberty of asking the people out there if this was feasible and they assured me that it would be very very easy and they would be only too glad to do it. So if the Honourable the Minister hasn't this information -I imagine that he could have had the information himself

85 8 March ll, 1966 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) .... .... if he wanted to ask them. I would like him to consider this, because this is one of the important things, we haven't the teachers and the best way to get them is to start developing them and the facilities are all here. Now another thing that I touched on yesterday was the business of the unqualified teachers. We are having trouble .. They had big headlines in the newspaper in the month of January that we had untrained substitutes and so on.

I !mow that this is a problem that the Minister is aware of and he is trying to remedy this, but I would not like to see the people in the private schools without proper supervision. I hope that we are looking after the qualifications of the teachers out there, because if they can't provide the teachers because of lack of funds, I think that it is our responsibility to see that there is good teaching, or in a last resort, we might have to see that these schools are closed; because we cannot have a certain group of our students here receiving inferior education and this might be the case.

So I would ask the Minister of Educa tion to look into this immediately. Now there is another thing. I always felt, as I mentioned yesterday, that this priority should not necessarily mean that there is more spending to be done. It would be very easy; all we do is tax rebate for $11 million and stick that onto the estimates and a few other things like that. If the Government can do that, they can put a lot of other things. If this indicates that we have the best of education possible to the government it certainly doesn't to me and the Members of our Party anyway.

Now I felt that the responsibility - I feel very strongly on this - I felt that the responsi bility of education should be the Honourable the Minister of Education and the Department of Education of course and the Cabinet and the Government and the Members of this House.

I don't want to say too much about the Windsor Park again, as I explained that this might come on later, that the Minister will table something and give us an explanation, but in this same field, it was mentioned on the Shared Services before that the government again did not listen to us and the government placed all the responsibility in the local school division and school boards.

I prophesy that this has not changed, that you will see a real battle come the next election in many places -the next election for the School Board that I'm talking about - because you will have somebody being on one side, some being anti and some being for and I think that this will be dangerous. I hope that we do not have another repetition of the Windsor Park affair because this takes an awful long time to straighten out, if you can ever straighten it out. Sometimes you can't straighten it out until the next generation or so.

So I would ask the government to take the responsibility and to make the decision themselves and never mind this board of advisors that you can shove everything on. There is another thing when I am talking about the responsibility of the Government. I would beg the Minister to look into the Public School Act, the Revised Statute of 1954 under

part 6 entitled "Powers and duties of Boards of Trustees and Officers of School Districts,

section 135 subsection (1) clause (n)" which reads "A Board of trustees may enter into any arrangement with the Board of Trustees of any other school district for the attendance of children from their district at any school in the other district, and pay such fees and charges as may be agreed upon with the board of the other district. " Now, Mr.

Chairman, I think that the reason why this was inserted in the Act probably was to give everybody a fair chance to be reasonable, but as you can easily see, this is not compulsory but permissive legislation, therefore, if a board does not want to take the res ponsibility for some reason or another, if a board feels that it should save some money and the board doesn't believe in the spirit of this clause, there is nothing anybody can do about it. I think the Minister knows what I am. talking about. I think that he would agree with me on this. Now this is not a complaint against the administration.

I think that this is something because of certain events that have taken place that we notice that we might have something here and I would suggest that the government should look into this probably with a very, well minor, as far as words, but very important amendment to the Act, would be that you can appeal, you can appeal, that anybody can appeal to the Minister, because as I say the res ponsibility should be the Minister of Education and the Department of Education. It won't change very much if somebody feels they have a good reason to request help under this sub

section I think that we could appeal. In anything else we can appeal, but there you can't and the final decision- I was told that you can't, so I accept this explanation -but I don't think this is proper. I think that if anything is not fair, I don't know - the Minister should be aware of what I am talking about, because I talked to him privately on this; or if he doesn't remember, I could present the case. It doesn't matter to me.

March 11, 1966 859 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ........ . The important thing is that in certain cases, certain people who had been living in a cer tain school district, have been taking a course for ten years or so, they are up to Grade 11 or maybe 12, and through no fault of theirs, they move - their parents move and they go with them of course, and all of a sudden they cannot finish their course. Mr. Chairman, this is an example. This has happened to one of my children.

Now that student will be finished by then, it won't affect me at all, but it is something that I felt very seriously, I felt that my rights and the rights of my child that student had not been fulfilled. She had received her education in the St. Boniface School District. She followed the eXtended French course there for 11 years until Grade 11 and in Grade 12, because we moved into St. Vital - lmd I might tell the Chair man that we are paying about $400 school tax out there. I don't think $12 a month would make that much, but it's the principle, there will be others.

I feel that in a case like this, if the school board, for some reason or other if the school board feels that they cannot apply this permission that they have under this subsection, that one should have the recourse to appeal to the Minister of Education. So I would suggest that the Governm��nt, the Minister, think very seriously of amending this that an appeal can be made to the 1\fini.ster. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there is something else that this present Minister has been a little more interested in than the former Minister of Education, the present Attorney-General, but I think that an awful lot more could be done - as my colleague from Emerson said yesterday in the field of television , of using the television to good advantage here in this field of educa tion.

I don't remember exactly what year, I think it was '62 or so or maybe before that I suggested that we should look into this very seriously and the then Minister told us point blank that he didn't care about television, that he would like to kick the tEllevision and break .it, he had no use for it, he couldn't see television doing anything for education. Well I thought that he was wrong and I mentioned certain things. I talked about this last year and the Minister was good enough to send me some information and I can see that a lot has been done if we are to compare with what had been done before.

But I don't think that this is enough. At one time the main reason for not going into this too much was that some of the teachers were afraid that television would replace the teachers, and that certainly is not possible - that has been proven in other places -and with the shortage of teachers that we have I think that this would do an awful lot of good.

I think that we should look very seriously in the - well immediately - and I would like to see a station -- before that I think we could have used the time that CBC - I think it was New Brunswick had had time valued at over $1 million - this was when I first talked about this. At the time, they were the-first ones to take advantage of it and CBC was very pleased to help them. They had special class,es, and so on, but we didn't take advantage of this. Now I think that when we are talking about all this progress in the field of education, I feel that this is the coming thing. There is very little doubt about this.

There is enough harm being done by television, let's put it to good use and let's use it to educate not only the children but the adults of our province. I feel that there should be a station at the University; I think that this is possible. It might be a costly thing, I don't know how fast we c.ould pr.oceed with it, but I think that this is something that we should provide in any new constructi.on for one tiring. We sh.ould provide this. It w.ould be a lot cheaper than having t.o change all these thipgs after.

Now I think that we could use this - through the University the broadcasting and so on, could be extended to the different sch.o.ols. I understand that a lot of the sch.o.ols received, during the course .of last year they received 2 or 3 televisi.on sets, but they didn't know what to do with it.

There's no time - and one of the reasons why we are losing teachers, one of the reasons we are losing teachers is because they want a chance to be retrained or to lear!l more about these courses, especially when we are changing this curriculum so much, we are trying so many things and we have teachers who have been teaching for 35 years or so and th:ls is new to them. They have to have a chance. I think that it would be possible to say a certain group of a sc:hool district, or a certain

section of the province or area of the Greater Winnipeg area, anyway, could meet at a certain period. This could be done. The administration wouldn't be that difficult, could meet let's say at 3 o'clock on Friday and have some lecture. I think this would be a lot cheaper and I think that you would take advantage of the best teachers, the best l13cturers. There's no limit to what the television can do in the field of education and as I said, education for those that we are talking about, rehabilitating people, not only the students that are full time students in school. I think there is so much that can be done if we did that.

860 March 11, 1966 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ..... . I would like the Minister to discuss this with, well the President of the University or whoever is responsible out there. ·I think that this is something that is not going to be done in one day. That's for sure. Or one year or maybe five years, but I think that we'd be well ad vised to look into this right now, and I don't think that we would regret it. There's the ques tion of construction as I mentioned and there's re-educating. It would heip us in this shortage of teachers.

I said that it would never replace the teachers, and I mean this, but at least if you had a shortage of teachers, and if all the teachers are not qualified, at least you could use the best teachers and the best lecturers to look into this field. So I can't be too emphatic on this question. I think it is very important. I think it's going to change the whole concept of education at least in North America. They are progressing very much in the United States and as I said, let's put this monster to good use and let's use it in the field of education. I haven't got too much more to say at this time.

There are certain points of course that I raised last night and this morning that I would like to have some answers. As I said yester: day, 1 issued a friendly challenge to the Minister to discuss some of these things. I think that once and for all we have to discuss these things. This is something that should be above parti san politics.

This is too important and I think that we all agree that in this field there is no such a thing as liberalism or conservatism; we are all after the best teaching that we can give our children, so I think that we could co-operate in this field a little more maybe than in others. Therefore I hope that we will discuss this question, which I consider very important in the field of national unity, or national disunity, this is what's happening now. I hope that the Minister will bring it in; and if he remembers also, I wanted to know if we will have a chance of taking

part in the debate of the Bill that we have before us now, the Bill of making French a teaching lariguage for certain groups. MR. LEMUEL HARRIS (Logan): Mr. Chairman, I have listened to the various people speak on education and it seems to me there is someth:ip.g lacking. I will try to explain what I think is wrong. Last night, for instance, I listened to my colleague the Honourable Member from St. John's speaking on education and all of the points that he stressed there seemed to me to be very sensible arid to be very constructive.

I listened to the Member from Seven Oaks speaking and they were all along the same vein. Now to me it seems, as I said, that there is something lacking in Manitoba. It isn't that we haven't the capabilities here. We have the capabilities, but we have to get down to the fundamental facts to find out what is wrong with Manitoba. And I say what is wrong with Manitoba? I will try to explain. We are attempting to expand our school system to allow for the increased number of young people of school age. We are attempting to expand our school system to allow for more students to remain in that school for longer periods.

Within a very short time, demands for adult education and retraining makes more demands on our schools. It takes money. But Manitoba is capable of building the classrooms. But can we supply the teachers? Now this is what I think in this way: Here we go into a factory, everything is built up - oh it is a lovely factory - all built up modern. New Machinery in there and everything is going fine, but they haven't got the oil and the grease to make that machinery go. So I say, it's the same with our teachers today. We are riot doing justice to our teachers.

I won't go into all the figures included in the Manitoba Teachers' Society survey of teachers retention and losses. We have heard them often enough this Session. But I want to draw your attention to Table 6 of that report, of that survey. It indicates that 34. 2 percent of the graduate teachers lost this year have been lost to the profession. They are not teaching school. They have found other kinds of jobs. Maybe it is because I haven't got, or had a chance to teach school that I ffnd this so hard to understand.

But why should someone who is qualified to be a part of the noblest profession in the world, have to leave it? I have asked questions and I think I have found some of the answers. Teachers are leaving because so much of what they are doing has nothing at all to do with teaching. They have to fill out attendance records and keep track of money collected by the students in fund drives and fill in silly little reports, busy work. Our teachers are in many cases badly overworked. They are at school all day and have to then spend all their evenings and weekends marking papers and preparing their classes.

They don't have any time for their fam.ilies or for other interests. In school, their classes are too full and they must have discipline in their classes at all times. They don't have any real control over the subject material that they teach or how they go about teaching it. They are not treated like the professionals they are. We must better these conditions. We can hire

March 11, 1966 861 (MR. HARRIS cont'd) .••..•.... clerical help to do the drudge work. We can give university students money to act as markers for high school teachers. We can give the teachers more freedom in the planning and presentation of their courses. We can do these things and we must. If we do these things and raise their salaries to the same level as other provinces, we will have teachers coming here because of better working conditions. The government should look at the suggestions I have just made. They are based on what teachers have told me.

I am sure they would help to stop the draining away of teachers. We must do something to stop it, if we are to look after the present need of our people, let alone the future. I thank you. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to· make a few comments on the Minister's salary at this time. Some weeks ago I had an opportunity to meet with a group of teachers in Portage and listen to what they had to say in and their think ing about education as it is in Manitoba and I was rather surprised to hear the tenor and the tone of their remarks.

While they did give credit in certain areas to the educational setup as it exists in Manitoba today, they did have definite points and they stressed them quite clearly. I have made a few notes a'hd I would like to bring them to the attention of the Minister." In their comments on curriculum revision, they were quite emphatic and quite outspoken about some changes that should be made in their opinion. And I have here a speech given by Mr. Breckman on December 4th, and if I could quote a few paragraphs out of his speech at that time.

"The rapid changes which are taking place in society would create a curriculum crisis of some seriousness in the most progressive school system. However when curriculum has remained relatively static for a quarter of a century as it did in Manitoba until recently, while around us major changes are taking place in society, the problem s become even greater." And then he goes on to discuss some curriculum changes that have taken place in some. of the grades.

On!=! of the problems that seems to be getting the teachers down was the fact that they had to find changes, a time to study the changes and they had to continue their work. And he says again, "Let me ask, how can a teacher in a multi-grade classroom prepare adequately to teach new courses at several grade levels? How can the teacher in such a situation use the new approach which demands a good deal of class discussion and close guidance of students as they work their way through the program to rediscover basic laws and generalizations?

Let me hasten to add, at this point, that we are not opposed to those changes nor the rate at which they are being introduced, for we cannot gear educational advances to the lowest common denominator. Rather these questions illustrate the desperate need to reorganize· our elemen tary schools so that we can have, except in few places where geography and population den sity will not permit, the minimum goal of one grade per teacher ..

" When I asked what they had in the way of suggestions to sol.ve some of this matter of curriculum change, they were of the opinion that somewhere in the school year there should be time found for the teacher to either come into retraining for five days or a number of week ends, or else the Department of Education should take this information out, if it's too far away from the central part of the province and give it to them.

One example they quoted to me was in the Literature course in Grade 10 last year, the teachers couldn't obtain the books on this course until school had opened - so here we have a case of the te1achers and the students start ing together on a new course. So I feel that the initiative for curriculum revision and in service training should come from the Department of Education, especially in-service training where the teachers tell me that their Society have had to push the Department to take some steps along this avenue.

Now in the matter of the teacher shortages, we have heard a great deal of debate this Session about the causes and the whys and wherefores and proposed solutions, but outside of the proposed white paper which seems to be every complaint the government has had in the last three or four years over education, which has been all rolled up and given some sort of an answer for the future, there has not been any definite steps taken on the matter of the teacher shortage. It is true that they have moved over to the university and at Brandon there is an expanding teacher training college there.

But here is something that the teachers are still saying as late as two or three months ago: An editorial in last night's Free Press, which would be December 3rd, draws attention to causes of teacher shortages, other than the causes given by the administration. Now we know the administration have some valid reasons for their problems, such as the high school population explosion, the higher compulsory leaving age, the greater steps in technical vocational schools and the over-all increase in school

862 March 11, 1966 (MR. JOHNSTON cont'd) ........• . population. And then we have experienced teachers who are withdrawing temporarily for higher training.

But speaking of the other causes, it isn't money alone, although that is part of it, but the fact that there are still some 900 one-room schools in the province which are unattract ive, because of that very reason, the teachers lack the space and the equipment; they do not have the teaching time to spend or the chance to specialize in these schools; there is a lack of physical and soclal amenities in some of these schools; there is some living conditions which the teachers no longer will tolerate.

Then there is the overcrowding that occurs in many consolidations when school authorities simply close a one-room school and put the pupils in existing classrooms elsewhere. Another interesting point that was brought to my attention is the fact that when some of these new schools are being built, while they are beautiful to look at, according to people I was talking to in the teachers profession, they are not functional. The teachers were not con sulted or not given a look at the plans in advance to see if they were suitable for what was re quired.

Then we've heard so much about the multiplicity of small high schools. Many of them are fine and new looking buildings but they are not serving the modern educational need. They lack size and equipment and the number of teachers necessary to cope with today's high school program. Consider the intolerable load thrust upon many rural high school teachers who have to attempt to teach the new General Course as well as the University Entrance Course and at the same time try to keep up with many changes being made in these courses. And there are more problems coming in the future.

Now to bring some specifics to the attention of the Minister. There was one night early this week, I believe there was a television program -The View from Here, was it? -and there was some criticism of the textbooks in use. Well it so happens, a member of our family is using one of these t\'lxtbooks so she brought it to my attention quite forcibly. I don't thi.rik it's a very good thing when even a student is not respectful or considerate of the knowledge that is being put before them.

I have this book here: "Everyday Problems in Science" which is used in Grade 10, and my daughter pointed out to me -and she was laughing when she was pointing it out. No doubt there are many good things in this book that will stand up over the years in basic problems in science, but there are some things in here that are almost laugh able when they're given to the students. I'd like to quote from Page 605 of this one -605. Our children are trying to get an education so they can compete with the children from New York or Toronto or Moscow or wherever when it comes to advancing in the world.

And this is how television is talked about in this book on Page 605 and I quote: "How does television work? Unless you have attended one of the World's Fairs or have been at a radio show; you have probably never seen a television set at work. In a television set a picture of what is happening in a broadcasting station is sent to you by radio. You see the singer as you listen to him. In this respect it is like the talking pictures and the movies. " And on the next page there's a picture of a television set. I think it's one step ahead of the old radio crystal set. It looks like about a 1938 experimental model.

Our children are learning out of this book. I don't doubt there are many -there's still many valid points and the basic science is taught out of this book but this one hasn't been revised since 1948. I don't know when it was origin ally written but I would say some time after 1935; it doesn't give a date. So even from '48 to almost '68 - that's 18 years without a revision and surely something should be done about this.

We hear so many stories, and we hear modern educators say now that in the lifetime of a person who is in the technical field, he may have to be retrained three times in.order to keep up and keep pace with his particular field. So I thi.rik something should be done about taking these books in and replacing them. Surely we don't have to carry all the research ourselves to do this. Surely we can look to other provinces or even further afield than that and take what is good there and perhaps modify it to our particular needs. But there's certainly no need to go on year after year with textbooks that are outdated.

I have one other specific to mention to the Minister and that is in the way, last year at least, Grade 11 and Grade 12 students were writing their exams and what happened if they failed one exam: I know in Portage of seven or eight cases and I could take this and project it across the province and I'm sure there would be at least 100 - and I'll quote a hypothetical case: A student who has had a good record of school work all through the ·years, no failures and above average marks, then in Grade 11 through inability of the student perhaps, perhaps through a poor teacher, perhaps through a change or revision in the course that didn't get through to the teacher and to the student, or a combination of all these, there's one failure in •

March 11, 1966 863 (MR. JOHNSTON cont'd) ..•...• the Grade 11 examinations of the student. Now by the regula tions that exist, the student can go on to Grade 12 and can carry the Grade 11 subject. At the examination time in the Grade 12 year the student is given the opportunity to write the Gra de 11 subject in June at the time the student is writing the Grade 12 subjects, we'll say phys ics. The student writes the Grade 11 phys ics in June and passes. Now the student does not get the op portunity to write the Grade 12 ph ysics until the supplemental time late in August - in August, I believe.

Now presuming the student has passed the Grade 11 one, has had suitable marks in her Grade 12 subjects but fails the Grade 12 ph ysics, what happens ? There is no opportunity to write a supp so the student must wait a year. All the other marks are suitable but there is not a second chance to write this subject. Now I know administration and the time element, I know it's difficult to do this, but when we think of the num ber of young people that are held back for one year, do not have that chance to go on to higher learning for one more year, they must wait, mark time and take this subject again.

How many of the se children lose heart and do not go on? They take jobs or they take part-time jobs and then they drift away from that goal that th ey've started on for higher education. Surely some method can be devised where this group across the province can be given an opportunity, perhaps only a week later, a week after th ey've found they 've failed that one subject, they should be given the chance even if they have to come to Win nipeg, 2 or 300 miles at their own expen se, they should be given the op portunity to try and get up that subject and write it off and go on to University.

In the case I'm speaking of in Portage, the student did not know of the failure until the Friday before the weekend that University was starting so aside from the mech anics of the situation of holding the person back for a year, think of the dislocation in the lives of these young people where they are prepared to go into University, they have spent some money and some time and then they find they have to wait a year.

Surely there can be an opportunity given to these studen ts, with this one subject ho lding them back, tliley should have the second chance to write that subject in that year and then if they fail, tha t's fine, they have to wait the ir year and they have to take the time to get the subject up. But they should have that opportunity to write this subject, they should have the second chance in the same year so that they can continue on the ir education without taking a year out of their life. I'd be very in terested to hear the Minister and see if he has any solution to thi s. MR . PATRICK: Mr.

Chairman, before we get off the Minister's salary, I just have two questions to ask of him . In the last couple of da ys we've heard much about larger school divisions, and larger units out in rural Manitoba would guarantee bette;r education. The ques tion I would like to pose to him now is, what is the percentage of junior matriculation comple tions and senior matriculation completions in rural Manitoba as compared to Metropolitan Winnipeg area. I wonde r if he would have that or is it possible to get it? I think it would be most valuable information to the members here in the House.

The second question I would like to pose to him , I und erstand at the Teachers College there is no gymnasium facilities. !.wonder why is this so ? Was ithis completely missed when the Teachers College was constructed, was it inadvertently .missed or why ? My information is that they're using some othe r University facility which is used .almost to the fullest extent now and they have not any of their own gymnasium facilities for phys ical education programs .

I know that the Minister will probably agree with me that the facilities at the old Normal School were probably the best and the most spacious that we have of the same type anywhere else in the Greater Winnipeg area. So before we get off this area I would like to know the se two questions if the Minister can give it to us no w. MR . JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson) : Mr. Chairman, I just have a few words to say.

It seems, listening here that we're all experts in education except the Minister; Listening to the Minister talking about the General Course, and I for one have never tried to downgrade the General Course because I believe that it has its place in our educational system, but the Minister himself kind of subtly admitted that the General Course has not been graced by full acceptance by our society in the past. Sometimes one wonde rs why. We go back to its in ception; we know that this General Course by the talk was intended for students who were not of University calibre.

I think that 's where the first mistake was made. The weaker students were supposed to be channelled into the General Course and academically it was supposed to be a lighter course. Then a feeling developed among the parents and the students that to accept th is General Course it was an acknowledgement of inferiority, and I think this is the main reason why the General Course didn't receive its full acceptance.

864 March ll, 1966 (MR. TANGHAK coilt'd) .• •..... Now we again hear from different people that this General Course - educationalists are trying to make this General Course more flexible and there 's some demand even that the General Course should be revised so as to adapt itself to the University entrance. Now this feeling of inferiority should be dispelled, in my opinion, before the General Course would re ceive full acceptance from the public . We should make a stand on this and the public should be made to feel that this isn't an inferior course .

It 's simply a school course which prepares our young boys and girls to enter into a vocation of their own choosing. I do not think that university training is necessary in all cases for an individual to make a living or even to con tribute to the society now and if we are able to dispel this inferiority complex I think that the General Course will come into its being as it should be. Now there 's a few notes that I made while the Minister was speaking, He didn't seem to think that the teacher exodus was a very important factor or something to be conce rned too much about.

But I would like to point out to the Minister that not only the members on this side seem to be worried about it, but also the Manitoba Teachers Society is worried about it, because recently, just about a month or a month and a half ago they declared to wage a war on this problem . So the problem must be before us , The same thing applies to teacher short age. It is a problem and I hope that the Minister's plans to step up teacher training facilities that he's been talking about will take care of this problem.

He mentions, or seems to be proud of the fact that Manitoba has the lowest number of pupils per classroom or per teacher. Now we can look at it two ways. I think in large part this is due especi ally in high schools to the eXistence of too many high schools even at the present time because I myself know that there are certain high schools which are not filled to capacity and they still retain a teacher in each classroom. Some, I know one classroom, 13 pu pils in it. So I don't think there's much to be proud of by stating that the lowest number of pupils per classroom - Manitoba enjoys that distinction.

We have too many small high schools and we have too many small elementary schools. There are some eleme,ntary schools at the present time who are operating seven, eight, ten pupils to a classroom. That requires one teacher. Of course there are some -b efore us I presume will be some legislation to remedy this. Now the Minister tells us that we are complaining about small schools and he goes back in history and says, and goes back to 1958, and I agree with him. There were more small schools in 1958 than there are at the present time. But I think he is missing the point. We can go back in history.

I think that his government had the chance of a lifetime to remedy this situation at the time when, at the time of the instigation of the school division, so just telling us now that there are less small schools, elementary and high schools than there were in 1958 I do not think is a very good defence, because as I say, this government had the chance to remedy this when the division plan was instituted. I repeat this again that the government abrogated its responsibility by permitting the construction of so very many small high schools.

In my opinion in the long run, although it wasn't popular at that time, to pressure the people 'into accepting'the larger schools, that there would have been a tremendous saving to Manitoba financially and also academically. To rectify this mistake now, is going to be very, very costly. We all know that. Arid I know that the Minister is worrying about this because he in dicated before that certain steps are be ing contemplated to bringing the smaller schools into consolidation and eventually under the school division plan.

Now the elementary schools under the school division plan, I for one like that idea and the Minister is well aware that I have always been in favor of centralization because I felt this is the only way that we can improve our education in the Province of Manitoba. Last year the government introduced the famous Bill No . 39, which had the intention of making it possible for these elementary schools to become the total responsibility of the school division board. But I think that's where the government made another mistake. The Bill was not far reaching enough at the time. And why?

I think the government was not bold at the time to make a stand and say this is what we believe is in the best interests of the people . The Bill was restrictive . Now the Government is trying to remedy that mistake in this Session, be cause before us we will be discussing the legislation which would help or improve Bill No . 39 or make a complete new bill. I believe that the goverilment this time should take the bold step that's referred to in the white paper. The government shoUld be bold enough to take the initiative.

I do not think it is enough to say to the people that if a certain number of you people come and petition us, I •

March 11, 1966 86 5 (Ml'l.. TANC HAK cont'd) ...• we will try and do something for it. I think the governm ent should take the initiative and the government should take the initiative to have a province-wide refer endum to determine whether the school divisions want total responsibility for all public high school education within their boundaries. I think the government should take that.

The govern ment has the facilities to educate the people, because we know that it has been done in the past in the case of the acceptance of the school division plan, and I'll say to the government, try this� In my opinion it would be a very bold step. I think that's the only way to do it - educate the people, show them the advantages and I'm sure that the people will accept it, because most of the people are more conscious, education conscious than they were in the past. They seem to realize that larger units are the only way that we can improve our educational system.

Many school boards in rural areas are now conscious of the fact that it is almost impossible for them to get well qualified teachers to teach in a. one-room elementary school with Grades 1 to Grade 8. Mter listening to the Minister my heart bleeds for him. I've said that before. And I do not envy him his position.

In fact, I would be willing to make a motion - usually we have a motion in here, move that the Honourable Minister's salary be reduced to $1 -I would be wil ling to make a motion to double his salary, providing the Minister cleans up the mess, cleans up the mess immediately, say, within a year and I'm sure that if the motion was to pass the Minister would earn his salary. Now a new Boundary Commission is to be established to recommend sites for consolidated elementary schools.

As I said before, just in the question when the Minister was speaking, that in my opinion there will not be enough leeway for this commission establishing elementary schools because it's hands will be tied from the beginning becau:se of the existing schools, high schools which it is the intention of the Government to convert them into elementary schools, and they'll have to plan, make their plans to suit the situation in. the different boundaries. We all know that if these schools are taken over by the elementary or put into elementary teaching then new high .schools will have to be constructed.

This time thl�se schools I hope, will be larger schools and centralized. I hope the government insists on that. In fact I think that the government must insist on this to avoid further waste of money. I don't think it will be a very easy thing to do )Jecause we know that the people after having been permitted to build these small high schools practically in every town, they will resent this. It will be much harder now to convince the people. As I said before, this mess was the creation of this governm ent and the remedy will be very, very costly. Now a little about priority.

The premier said that in one of his opening speeches, that education has top priority in Manitoba. I would like to believe it has and I know there is a lot of talk about education being top priority. But in a sense, is it? How do we go about fulfilling this top priority or measuring it? Is it simply measured by the amounts, the huge amounts of money that is being spent on education? Does that establish top priority, simply spending money ? We could spend a lot of money but a lot of money could be wasted.

Manitoba will have to spend millions and millions of dollars to clear up the mistakes that this government has made in the past. So I would say that a lot of this money is going to be wasted, therefore if you measure top priority by amounts of money spent, I don't think that is the right way to con sider it. In. my opinion, under these conditions education is not top priority because a lot of this money, as I said, would have to be wasted or be attributed not to improvement in education but to correcting the errors of the government in the past.

Technical Vocational Schools were mentioned and I know that the technical vocational schools, we never have enough. The Minister himself said that the vocational schqols are now filled to capacity. But wh ose fault is that? The students flock there. Can we blame them ? I don't think so . Because they felt that they wanted to learn more, they went to· school. I think again here the present government is to blame that we haven't got the facilities, because Manitoba has not been taking full advantage of the Federal grants that were available to Mani toba in this field.

We know that Manitoba has been lagging in the past. In fact, Manitoba is almost last in taking advantage of these appropriations - the grants, not appropriations "' but grants from the Federal Government. Manitoba in proportion to its population is just about at the bottom of the ladder and I know that the Minister is tryin�� to do something. about this now. I hope he considers this very seriously so that in a year from now, he wouldn't stand up here and tell us that they are filled to capacity and there isn't enough room.

866 March 11, 1966 MR. GORDON W. BE ARD (Ch urchi ll) : I think I would be remiss if I didn 't pass a few words on education as we see it in nortnern Manitoba. First of all though, I would join with the member for Emerson to vote on passi ng the Minister's sa lary.

I am sure that he has done a good job, it is indicated, in education throughout the province and certainly I think in this de bate so far we feel that, from what we have heard to date, the constructive criticisms that have been brought forth in most cases are things that are being looked after, being programmed as of now, and we certainly are going along with the rest of Canada in promoting education as its first priority. Certainly in the north we have looked toward education as something that we had to move to the south, in the past, to get for our children.

Today, it is emphasized in northern Manitoba as a top priority and I believe we all gained encouragement through the last �ew days on the large projects that are indicated and planned for the north, then we have the technical, primary and secondary education to go along to look after these programs. I noticed with interest last night that the Honourable Member for St. John's asked that the schools be made the centre of the community, and also he emphasized an equal chance for all.

I would join with him on these comments because I think this is a fundamental need and requirement of education throughout the whole program. I would point out that in all probability this was the basis that was considered when Manitoba in the first place brought education in under the public school program, so that we would be sure that there would be an equal chance for all regardless of the status in the community; and I think that our government have made many steps in progressing this line of thought, particularly in the consolidation of high schools .

This was a wonderful program and proved to be the shot in the arm that education needed to prepare our boys and girls for univers ity training. I would like to point out too that we do have more courses; this is an equal chance for all. They have the academic , the general, the vocational courses. This is what is necessary to train chi ldren to accept what portions of education they can at their individual level. I would like to point out too that the bursa ries are available so that there is an equal chance for children no matter from what status in life they come from - not excluded.

I am very surprised though that the member for Rhine land says, "We should have smaller sch ools, smaller technical schools scattered throughout Manitoba. " Now I wonder - if he sits back in his chair and thinks about it for awhile - if we have these small technical schools scattered throughout Manitoba, where are we going to find the students, the teachers to look after these ? The financing to look after large technical schools is a problem in itself. If you scatter this throughout the province, then it is very difficult.

I think it's much better to have the large technical schools and bring the children in to be taught, because they're ready to leave home at this time of life. They are children that have grown up; they're young adults. They're going out to not only earn a living but to learn how to get a living, and it is much better to be brought to a larger area, a larger community, to learn a little more about life itself and also to gain the advantage of being taught in larger classes. How are you going to have technical schools unless you have - they tell me at_ least ZO or up to zo in-each class.

It costs money to provide the equipment for these classes, and these classes have_ to continue for a number of years to be economically possibl e to offer to the students. So certainly I go along at this time at least with the Minister in his thinking of putting these technical schools at locations throughout the province so that they are available in the area that the child has grown up in, but certainly it doesn't need to be a program that goes along with his high school education.

There are schools proposed - there are schools in Winnipeg here, there's one proposed for Brandon; and one for The Pas - and certainly the child doesn't have to go very far from home now to get a technical vocational training. If he is going into technology, certainly he has to go away from the home in all probabi lity that he was brought up in anyway, and this gives him social educ ation. While we .go along with the smaller regional technical schools for the lesser skills in the smaller areas - and this has been brought about - but certainly not in the larger vocational classes.

They have got to be in a centre where we have the facilities to teach and the programs to go along with it. I'm not going to belabour the Cranberry School program any longer. We've been there; we've visited it . Those that were interested enough to go up saw for themselves that certainly integration is working in northern Manitoba. I was very pleased .- and I watched particularly when we were sitting there waiting for the opening addresses - as the children filed in, there was no segregation.

You looked throughout the hall and there was an Indian child sitting next to an English born child - or what do we call them - white? But the integration was carried I •

March 11, 1966 867 (MR. BEA RD , cont'd) ..•. thr oughout the whole school. We went into working classes and the Indian childre n were next to the white childr en. They're learning from each other and I think this is particularl y good; It's warming to know that as time passes, I think these children when they graduate will certainl y know each other's prob lems, and certainl y the virtues of each other's type of living.

I think this is one of the greater parts of their education, something that many of us are missing, and I think if they have to live together, they play togethe'r and they learn together , what better hope have we got for the future than to train children along these lin es. I believe they will be the ones that will be passing along the message that we have looked for for so long and which has evaded us so many times in the past.

When our fo�l fathers first agreed to reserva tions, I think that they were trying to do what was best; the, Indian asked for what he thou ght was best; but it's unfor tunate that they had not more reserva tions when they brought in a program such as that. I think that the programs also in northern Manitoba lay grea.J� r emphasis on the forward looking program that we had intr oduced a few years ago on the technical school for The Pas.

Certainly the departme nt has a gre at deal of credit coming to them and I think I would be remiss in not passing along my personal congratulations to the Deputy Minister - who I see is in this House today- and I hope that he in turn would pass it along to those who have done such an excellent job in programming the vocational school for the' north . They have brought together a group to assist as an advisory committee from not only the educational status but also from labour, from not only labour as one representative , but labour representations from the industrial sites in the north.

It is also heartwarming that industry is contributing to this school in large measure in assisting to plan courses in which the ��hlldren can be assured of jobs on graduation. This is very very important , because while it was long before my time in politics, I had the thought that the technical school, while the child did go to it, <lr the young adult, after he graduated he was on his own, and this seemed to be the failure of technical schools when they were first introduced.

Today, they are assured of jobs, and particularly where industry plans along with the Department of Education, then they can advise whal: programs are best. This is very important and I think particularly so as we move into pulp, lumbering, and later on in the paper industry and in the other programs which will come out of this pulp and paper com plex.

This assures us that these people will have a continuing chance and opportunity to become educated whether they are young adults or whether they are older ones trying to rehabii itate themselves, trying to up-grade themselves, then this provides an. opportunity for one and all. In passing on from the vocational school, I again would be remiss if I did not speak on education in the Town of Churchi ll.

While for a long time planning was held up because the Federal Government refuse d to consider a co-operative program which could provide the community with an up-to-date elementary school, the province took the initiative last year and went out and the Deputy Minister sold the Town of Churc hill on a progr am, which I might state at this time proved that either he did a good selling job or reall y it wasn't necessary to point out to the people the importance of their educational program. When it was brought to a vote in the community, I believe there were 15 voted against it, some either 200 or 300 voted for it.

I've never heard of a school program going through with such a large majority, and I think this is indicative of the people's attitude in northern Manitoba towards education. They want it. They've been without it for too long and they recognize progr ess. This is where I join with the member for St. Joh n's, and I wish he was in his chair at the moment, with how a school can fit into a community. First o,f all, the community accepted it almost unanimously. Secondly, the school was designed for thre community and with the community in mind.

This is to become the hub of the Churchill s:ocial area as well as the educational area. The school will provide space, I understand, for public school nursing, for hot meals for the students at dinner time; and it will not be open for eight hours a day only, it will be open for at least two classes a day. In the evening, there is the opportunity to go there for up-grading classes, for community activities, for studying, and you cannot really accept the implication of this unless you've seen the homeJS where many of our Indian Metis children come from.

They are one room homes; they are overcrowd ed; there 's no real opportunity for a child to take advantage of the teaching that is given him day by day if he goes home and the Indian language is spoken at home, the only time they have an opportunity to speak English is when they're in school. It becomes very difficult for them. Studying is never thought of and so they have an almost impossible situation in trying to ke,ep up with the white children.

868 March 11, 1966 (MR. BEARD, cont'd) .. .• But here, where they can go back in the evening, where they can take advantage of extra tutoring, I am sure that it will he lp these children to try and keep up with the other white children who have the extra additional advantages of home life and the realities of their parents realizing that they have to study at home as wel l as in school.

A program like this offers the children a chance to even go into the school, and there are shower facilities available for him to become socially educated and to take advantage of those things which we take for granted but which they do not have in their own homes. So I wou ld think really that education has come a long way in the north. Perhaps in some cases it has a long way to go, just as other members have emphasized today, but this will come about.

I am encouraged when the Minister states that they have a five-year program to up-grade the elementary education of the north and this is the one that I am concerned about. For while we have Cranberry Portage, The Pas Vocational School complex, we still must keep the children coming, and with the emphasis on secondary education with the enlargment of Cranberry School and the vocational school facilities that are avai lable, we mus t see to it that these children in our areas get a good Grade 8 educa tion.

In many cases the child was there, but in the past, I am sure that there would be some criticism through the fact that the child progressed through school not because of his ability but because of his size, and in many cases they were pushe d on because they just didn't fit into the grade that they should have been taking. It would be hoped, Mr. Chairman, that in the five years of up-grading that the department can take care of the teacherages and the schools, particularl y on a building program that would offer incentives for young teachers to move to the north.

Certainly if they are looking for a challenge, this is the place for our young teachers of today, and with the more modern amenities being introduced into the areas, with hydrq programming to bring electricity into some of the communities for the first time, I am sure that it will al low the Department of Educa tion to he lp this community catch up with the rest of the world of today so that we can progress and allow these industrial programs that are being introduced into the north to come in on an equal basis with that in sourthern Manitoba.

Certainly I wou ld think, with all these programs taking place, then there will be a day shortly coming when there won't be a north and southern Manitoba but it will be all Manitoba, and if we can join together to work for this, it will be the benefit of not only the north but certainly of southern Manitoba where we have to at this time look so much for the assistance that we require to develop our north. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education)(G imli): Mr.

Chairman, the member from Churchill has dealt with the north so adequately that I should be able to try and curtail my remarks in response to several que stions that have been put and I'll do my best to be as brief as possible. I would just say generally, in trying to give detail, I think we in the committee are more concerned with general policy and where education is going. I am enthusiastic about the White Paper and I wish. to suggest that the member from St. John 's is a pretty good diagnostician from across the way because I was fighting a flu bug yesterday.

However, I do want to say that the White Paper is a most significant document because it commits government to a policy and a program to follow, and it has, as you can well understand, tremendous costs involved in the future. This is a tremendous commitment. For example, the program contemplated in the technical vocational field far exceeds the present ceilings that have now been placed by the Federal Government, and the Ministers across Canada are attempting to encoura ge the Federal Government to raise those ceilings to meet our needs and to remove the target date when these are . to be built.

Also, we are asking for sharing, across Canada, to the Federal Government in technical vocational training at .the high school level. Right now there is a quota of 162, 000 in this province and if that's removed, you will see this would help our province tremendous ly in offering the program that is envisaged in that White Paper, and I have no doubt that this is most significant in that it's giving a broad guideline of government philosophy towards the several areas in the field of education.

I think what has been said by the honourable members - for example we have heard of the need for uniformity of curric ulum from some members - I thought the member from Logan's address suggested every teacher have his own curriculum. We hear how fast curriculum change is coming in on the one hand and how.re tarded we are on the other, but make no mistake, to bring about the extensive curriculum changes that are involved does require tremendous amount of in-service training. The pilot projects that we have had going since 196::l in the University I •

March 11, 1966 869 (MR. JOHNSON , co11t'd) •..• E11tran.ce Course an.d since 1961 in the General Course; have certainly borne out the fact that you couldn't go as fast as was originally anticipate d if you have to· up-gra de your teaching force an.d so on. But I think Manitoba is not alone in this concern in this area. Almost every province in Canada has had a Royal Commission on the subject an.d every country in the Free World has really experienced an.d is experiencing major difficulties.

Many of these are so great that no amount of foresight could have prevented their growth, an.d in Manitoba they arose from a system that - let's fact it .- had been dormant for some years. The local organization was pretty bad; there were 1, 700 districts.

A few years ago in our province the teacher shortage was pretty acute, as recently as 1947 when 20 perce nt of our teaching force were permit teachers an.d that was of a teaching force of around 4, 000 peopl e, an.d some with qualifications as low as Gr ade 10., where the pupil-teacher ratio was around 25 per classroom - an.d I just brought those figures out the other day to indicate to the member for Em erson what a tremen-, dous impact in a large teaching force the pupil count has in that area. We had a physical establishment that certainly had to be redeveloped.

We had a single place of 800 students in trade training - there were no technologiEts. Our first technology people only .graduated two years ago following MIT. And in the field of .curriculum, let's face it, we had one director an.d.one stenogr aphe r looking after curriculum until 1959. So in implementing the massive program, there is a tremendous amount of detail that is almost impossible for me to share with you in the House, but I would liket to give a broad outline of some of these things In an.swering some of these questions an.d try an.d indicate that what the member.from St.

Joh n's was saying last night is so true. I thillk we are going away from what was a traditional patte rn in this province of educa tion, where the emphasis was all on the university entrance bound student, our Matric course, and we are moving towards a. multiple course system at the high fiChoollevel which obviously requires larger s.chools. Our objective is to retain within our SYJ�tem, an.d brillg to the maximum of their attainment, every child within the system.

This should be our goal an.d the local administrative arrangements that have to be done to acC4lmplish this are outlined in the White Paper an.d will be bef()re you in legislation. I thillk this is highly significant because we are coming to this point where we are going to operate . In the last few years when the member from Emerson is so discouraged - an.d it partl y an.swers the question from the member from Assiniboia - I think l:he success of your system an.d your curriculum development is in the retention rate within Y4lur school system.

I have bef()re me Jhe table showing the perce ntage of students who started in Grade 2 an.d at various succeeding grade leve ls, and it showe that those who started in Hl61, 40.9 of our boys and girls reached Grade 12 --4 0.9 percent; in 1965, in the fall term - I checked with the secretary treasllfers of these divisions - 59 .6 per cent of the boys and girls are retained in the system. I think this is the best index we have of the success -- (Interjection)-- I beg your pardon ? That's total. I don't know - I'll try an.d get that break-d own - .I hELven't got it handy.

But generally, the multiple courses are needed to increase this retenUon rate an.d this should be our objective. Now I thought 1 would deal with the member from -- go through these as quickly as I can.

Last night during the debate on the estimates some questions were asked about the legislation which the government propos es to bring forward for the improvement of educational services in the Interlake, an.d the exact nature of the pattern - I hadn't anticipate d a discussion of this until the bill was before the House an.d I didn't bring any speci fic material on it, an.d I m ay have inadvertently . drawn on some general proposals as we U as making reference to a spe cific Interlake situation.

The Interlake includes within its area some of the lowest assessments in the province and its educational dificulties are f!J.rther complicated by sparsity of population . We believe that to provide a reasonable education in the modern context requires not only larger high schools but also elementary schools, as we have said, large enou:gh to be truly graded schools. The situation only becomes possible if authority can. be centralized in a division board or a cousolidated school district large enough to operate graded schools .

In much of the country of the Jn terlake, the scattered population would require extensive transportation systems to bring eno ugh children together. to make such schools possible , an.d the Low assessment would put such a system beyond the ability of the division or the consolidation to support without some form of extra help. The prop osal is to use the Inte rlake as a pilot are a in which to carry on an. intensive

870 March 11, 1966 (MR. JOHNSON, cont'd) .... up-grading process, but we recognize that this will be impossible without some form of special assistance over and above the regular grants and the very limited ability of the loca lities to support a better system.

The proposal is that legislation will be brought forward to allow the establishment, as we said, of a boundaries commission which will have as one of its duties a study of the boundaries of the school districts and divisions in the Inte rlake and to recommend to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Counc il, for each school division in the Interlake, that it be declared a single district division, in which case the division board would have jurisdiction over both el ementary and secondary education throughout the entire division and would be required to establish both el ementary and secondary schools large enough to provide good facilities and services.

Alternatively, the commission might recommend that a particular division be divided into a stated number of consolidations, each with a population large enough to support a graded school. In this case , the commission would be required to recommend the boundaries of these districts.

It is our bel ief that, in either case, a recommendation for the single district division or a recommendation for the establishment of large consolidations within the division, the commission should recommend suitable sites for the schools , having in mind such factors as population density, roads, alteration of ward boundaries, and in some case , a change in the number of trustees within the division. We think that this should only be done after of course the bound aries commission has had public hearings on its proposal and listened to the reactions of the local people.

It should go forward to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council who should have the power to accept the recommendation, to give it effect by Order-in-Council.

However, if a division in the Interlake - if the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council decide s to accept the recommendation of the commission to declare a particular division a single district division or to divide it into the larger consolidations along boundary lines recommended by the commission, then the government must provide additional support to help pay the costs, and this additional support will be calcu lated on the appl ication of a simple formula which will be an equaliza tion basis and provide bigger support for those in greatest need.

We think the cost of providing these neces sary improvements in this part of the province will be $360, 000, which is in the estimates this year, and we are prepared to pay this if we can bring this about. Now this is quite separate from those measures that will be coming forward of a general r nature for application across the province . The reason we have chosen the Interlake is because of the intensive study we have made, and the succe ss of this of course is going to be highly significant because this is the target area defined by ARDA.

And certainly as the Leader of the Opposition says, "what about other areas, " I think we would be most interested if this is l the type of thing they wish, in the more difficult areas, I think we are certainly going to have to look at it. But initially, because of all the work, the ground work we have done with the local folk here , and have identified the problem pretty clearly, we feel this should commend itself to you.

" As the White Paper indicated, there is legis lation coming forward which will I think also commend itse lf to you because it gives different methods of bringing about single district divisions, or those divisions which want to remain with large consolid ations may do so. But we are generally hoping to conduct with the trustees and teachers in the coming months, an intensive campaign to bring these alternatives before the people, but the Interlake is a separate pilot project that we are going to bring forward.

Now on uniformity of curriculum, I think that last year I made a statement on this uni formity indicating what had happened at the CEA meetings - the Canadian Educational Asso ciation, the Council of Ministers - where this was first brought up by Manitoba. I gave a rather detaile d report of the certain subject areas where there was thought to be more possibility of this than others , and indicated that in the western provinces we were continuing to pursue uniformity very actively.

These directors in western Canada are meeting annually with problems for comparative standards , texts and course s, and they are cons tantly discuss ing these . There's a constant exchange of opinions throughout the year on details - syllabi, text books - many of which are commonly adopted in two or more provinces, Ontario has been invited to these meetings for the last four years and has attended about three out of four, and our Curricu lum Branch of course maintains constant touch with other branches in Canada.

In that connection, I can report that next month, in Regina, all the Directors of Curriculum are meeting to plan a common scope - call it sequenc e of social studies - especially in grades 7 to 12 . They are also looking at other subjects.

March 11, 1966 871 (MR. JOHN SUN, cont'd) •..• The annual meeting in June - the last two or three years they have exchanged their ideas, plans and their experience in the new sciences. For example in Saskatchewan, the new physics course is alternative to a general course. In British Columbia the:y have introduced the PSSC physics in one grade.

As you know here - and I should answer the member from Portage in respect to the text he mentioned this morning - generally within the general course , as you know, we have a physical science program which is designed particularl y for that course and this is pretty well in operation. It is a good course, text and so on. The curriculum committee in charge of this particular program, and I would POint out that the curriculum committees - we were asked about that yesterday - there are several types of curriculum committees.

There are seminars and subject committees -i ndividual subjects -an d they are comPOsed of practising teachers, Inspectors, superintendents, unive rsity professors in the case of unive rsity entrance subject committees, and they are appointed by the Minister through the Curriculum Branch. They try to get the widest POSSible representa tion across the province , bearing in mind of course competence 8l1Ld experience of these people, and these people are responsible through the Director of Curricuium to the Minister through the advisory board to the Minister.

There is an advisory board that receives all the recommendations of the professionals. They pre sent their program to the advisory board recommending certain texts and techniques and what have you, and the recommendations must be approved by the advisory board before they come to the Minister. Contact of course is also kept through planning seminars, by having seminar members on individual subject committees, that is1 the whole five seminar group will have the physics committee and there'll be a chairman for that and so on.

In implementing the PSSC physics, for example, which started in 1962, they offered for example the first five chapters of that particular series at the Grade 10 level. That course is designed for 11 and 12 PSSC physics, chemistry and so on. It breaks into the new approach of the science s, the laboratory- oriented, the enquiry type of scfe,nce program.

The committee have felt in the last year - has rePOrted to me that the text that hw; been in current use, the traditional science text, must be replaced, but they have been reluctant and have decided not to just replace it until they have the kind of preparatory science cc1urse to offer in Grade 10 .

This is called The Introduction to Physical Sciences Course and this is being developed - those people who developed the PSSC physics for example have now been developing this course, this preparatory course , and our people feel that rather than produce an interim text to the one in question, they would rather replace it with the Introductory Physical Sciences course at the Grade 10 level. These courses are coming in on a pilot basis this fall, the new IPS they call it - Introductory Physical Science Course - which will be the new type of teaching of the sciences. Someone asked how the members are paid.

We 11 as I mentic•ned, there are seminar people and these seminars are held in the summer and the membeJ�S are paid a daily rate plus their expenses. Subje ct committees meet throughout the year and receive expenses for out of town members for travel, and all receive expenses for meaiiB, and where meetings are held on school days, substitute fees are paid. This year we have three to four hundred people involved in curriculum development and it is being proPOsed this y'ear as an honorarium, as a mark - as an honorarium is what it means -we are suggesting in these estimates we pey $75 annually to these people.

With respect to the PSSC physics, I am advised that the great majority of classes show passing rates of 80% or more and only one or two instances \\'ere less than 50% passed, and in these cases principals had assigned PSSC physics to classes for which such a course was thought inappropriate. All teachers teaching any of the new scienc:es are required to have special training in these disciplines before teaching, and close and constant contact between the teachers committee and the Curriculum Branch is maintained. The chemistry Grade 12 texts were sent out to schools last Jrune.

This text is used at the same level in Alberta and Ontario, and was formerly used in our First Year University Course which parallels our Grade 12. Special classes for teachers preparing for chemistry in Grade 12 have been held in Winnipeg, Brandon, Manitou, Dauphin, Flin Flon, with an extra set in Winnipeg especially arranged for teachers in the Interlake area.

Detailed instructions re syllabi and course content were given to all teachers with full information about basic pattern and scope for final examination, Teachers are thoroughly briefed and informed by curriculum committee and all decisions regarding the course are based on actual developing experience in

872 March 11, 1966 (M R. JOHNSON, cont'd) . . . . the class room, and of course marking of Grade 12, examinations will follow the usual High School Exami nation Board pattern. The new sciences generally were des igne d for high school use and are bei ng taught in a large number in the province . The recent Founding Convention of the Canadian Associ ation of Science Teachers gave enthusiastic support for those courses which are now in our high schools.

The Member for -- before I get down to that, I would like to mention something of significance in a moment, but I think in connection with uniformity of curriculum, there is a study that I would be happy to try and obtain for the honourable members . The Canadian Educati onal Association Council did a study of about 2, 100 high school students moving from province to province , and the actual percentage of transfers is about one percent or 1 in 100 students who transfer, of whom 75°/c make their move betv.reen June and September, the most diffic ult tim e. Their.

summary and.conclusions generally were that there is little point in placing much stress on provincial or inter-p rovin cial transfers, and they feel essentially they are school to school rather than province to province movements. They said inte r�provincial transfer among high school students is primarily an individual problem, not a provincial one. Gen eral patterns applying to large groups ofs tudents or to particular provinces or regions were notice ably lacking. This was quite an inte resting study and it's fully reported upon.

With other provin ces, we now have a pupil transfer form which goes really from school to school. It was thought to be a school matter rather than a province one, but we have authorized this inte r-provincial pupil trarisfer letter form which is a standard form used by all the provinces when one child goes from one province to the other. But the incidence was quite revealing and it's an inte resting report that I would be glad to give anyone. I think I have extra copi es. The member from Portage mentioned the supplemental examinations . We are one of the few provinces who re-examine students in the fall term.

M·:>st provi nces, for example Ontario, you write in June and your marks come out quite late in Augus t. I think you are aware of that. In Manito ba, we do let them write in this way .

One of the steps that has been taken is that new regulations are published to allow an ins pector, and princip als, a little more leeway in the type of case the Hono urable Member brought up, where a kid carrying Grade 11 physics say into Grade 12, he might be able to write the two subjects in June if there is a case to be made for it, and get away from the former rigidity of not al lowing that child to write the two exams in June but he had to write one and carry one to the fall. I think that should be helpful to some of these students .

I would say in this connection that what the honourable member has mentioned has been something I became quite intere sted in and I think that the questi on raised -- I think this relaxation in the regulation allowing an inspector and a principal on a needs basis to readjust that will be helpful to many students . We are one of the few as I say again who are re examining in the fall. When the exams are written in the fall, it's always a rush to get the marks out to the child or the.student before univers ity starts but I can as.sure you the department bend every effort in that regard.

On the questions the Honourable Member from Portage raised re curriculum, I don't think I can say much more. It's a very extensive subject. Generally , I think the teaching professi on are responding pretty magnif icently. For example, in that televis ion maths series - new maths last year - of 5, 00 0 teachers who looked in on it, over 3, 000 have asked to be examined on it for a credit course, which I think is most inte resting. This fall we'll be going into a reading series we're trying to arrange . I might say while I'm on my feet in connection with television, this is a fie ld that is really going to expand.

I think if the honourable member should ever go up to our Portage Avenue plant I would be glad to arrange for him to go there and just see what's going on. Manitob a is producing a number of programs. We have a very good arrangement with the other western provin ces . At the Canadian level, we have had some difficu lty - the Ministers across Canada - in forming a Canadian constitution. The CBC are most anxious to have a common constitution so that they can treat all provinces uniformly in offering educational television.

One of the problems has been that the province that had the most to say got the grease , and we now have formed, or pretty well completed the formation of a Canadian Coun cil on School Broadcasti ng. French and English se ctions - and I could mention to the Member for St. Boniface that I was chairman of that committe e for awhile. I I I I •

March 11; 1966 873 (MR. JOHNSON, cont'd) .••• The big point is how much technology CBC will give us to put on our programs. There are programs of a national nature which can be shown across the country , produced by the CBC in consu ltation with the provinces. Secondl y, in the west here for example, the four western provinces, we produce a series say in social studies tha.t our kids can use , so there really has to be a national body.

There 's an English Counc il bef1 11g forme d and a French Counc il, and I'm able to report to him that I have managed to get one of the four provinces outside Que bec to get representation on the French Coun cil. We 1ll be appointing a member of this teaching community in the French language to that council who will assist that body in producing television educational type of programs that will be su:ltable for our children in the French language . This is most interesting. But we are cognizant of the role of tel evision. I should report to the member for St. Boniface that St.

Bmtiface Coll ege, in the last 20 weeks, 40 hours of instruction was given th ere; Manitoba Teruchers Coll ege, 20 weeks or 40 hours of instruction ; cl asses have been held both in 1964 and JL965; summe r school, 60 hours of instruction ; in Faculty lA, the one year teacher trainfnl� program, half the class are taking French. Of this group, 40 are French-speaking students being prepared to teach French-speaking students and they receive 65 hours instruction, 35 hours on method and 30 hours in the language lab.

At the graduate level, we have 30 gra.duates in the secondary course getting three hours per week through the university on French and 10 graduates on the elementary course getting four hours a week during the second term. A summer course is planned for 60 teachers in teliJ()hing the junior high French pro1�am that's coming in this year. It's called "Ec outez et Parlez" -- that's Listen and Learn., isn't it? It's not - (Interjecti on) - I hate to break out in mY native tongue.

However, I can assu re you that this is an enhanced program requi ring audi o-visual aids and it's going to require in-service training which we're planning. And, of cou rse, courses will be offered teachers of el ementary French, and briefing sessions are being held in April and May for 50 0 teachers of French throughout the province at eight centre s, and approximately 30 to 40 percent of our children I notice in 4 and 5 and 6 are now taking the new conve rsational French cour se, so there's a lot of activity in that area. I think I'm giving -- who's bugging me here? Everybody says sit down.

Well I'm just going to answer a ques tion or two. A most significant development was referred to by the Hon•�>urable Member for St. John's . During the past year with respect to the University Entrance Course Seminar and in concert with developments that are happening and will happen across Canada in the develop ment of University Entrance Course s, as I say there is a tendenc1y to break away from the old traditional patterns, and the elght subject sequence I think will bt� modifie d to a seven subject sequen ce.

All our inf ormation and studies reveal that rather than as was suggested having a certain average at the Grade 9 level before proceeding to -- that is to stream kids on a grade basis at that age has not worked. It hasn't worked in Europe and we fe el the matte r depends more on guidance and coun sel� and that's why we're pushing fcrrth with all haste to try and develop our staff and to develop in-service training in that area.

Also, it was fe lt that the incre asing numbe r of students coming intO high school having a wide disparity of int erests and goals points to a need for a bro�uily based high school pattern.

Rigid course separation itse lf can not be legitimately defende d if the principle become s a barrier rather than an avenue to continuing studi es, and the realilzation of the importance of techn ical education and modification of the courses originally deEiigned,and specific ally we 're sug gesting that the seven subject pattern be retained in 10 and 11; that the streaming process be one more of guidance and coun selling; and that the presentl y available technic al options continue as part of a revised pattern.

We are proceeding, as I mentioned generally earlier, without delay toward a fu sed course pattern with possibl e channe lls at the same time being clearl y deline ated and secondary schoo l graduation standing.

I think it's important that this be said to the committe e bel3ause next year our students will have the opportunity to write the new Canadian University Adlmission Service examination, and we think the diff erent courses may lend themselves to permit; students to write a standard course in April of any one year which will allow them into univ ersity, and while our prof essionals must maintain the integrity of our system and the 13xce llence of our system, at the same time they are looking towards greater flexibility and integration between these cour ses.

All of this is going to put a straiD. on our teaching for ce, but then again our teachers, I say, have responded wel l. There are more qualifie d people than ever before , a greater percentage

874 March 11, 1966 (MR. JOHNSON, cont1d) .... of them des pite almost a doubling in numbers in recent. years, and I would hope that a happy balance can be maintained in bringing this forward. I have already reported on the attitude of the University which is most helpful, and looking specifi cally as the Member from St. John's me ntioned at that General Course content, where what opportunities are there at the academic level following the General Course, and of course we have many opportunities at the technical level. I would also mention some minor -o r not minor, but things the member from St.

John's mentioned about a 300 classroom school. I don't know just what is being referred to there. The school may be obsolete. That would be a division matter. Divisional Boards of course have complete control as to site of school under the Act and I don't know just what the specific problem is . Just briefly, the Member for Rhine land talked about the Canada Pension Pl an. As you know, the teachers' pension pl an has largely followed the Civil Service pian. Agreement was reached with both the Civil Service and the Teachers Society towards an integrated plan. The fund isn't a..ffected.

They still pay a portion, four point odd percent ib.to the Teacher Pension Fund. They receive the benefits of that contribution; the other contribution is sent directly in to the CPP . The integrated plan was chosen. In-plant training, adult night cl asses, re-training of the unemployed, all those matters under The Technical Vo:!ational Agreement are administered through the department and the Department of Industry and Commerce. That is , the Department of Education submits all. accounts to Ottawa for sharing on in-plant and all those agreements under the Technical Vocational Agreement.

Legislation is coming forward in The Public Schools Act concerning adult classes and it is being proposed to have adult day classes operated by divisions and of course by the department. The member for St. Sohn's asked what is the optimum sized el emental"'.{ school. The optimum size I think - I checked with the department and my recollection of it is of com·se at least a graded school - one to eight - with 250 students should be the minimum, but I under stand they feel around 25 to 30 classrooms is the ma.'drrmm that an elementary school should attain ideally up to that level.

The Ret ired School Teacher matter - legislation is coming forward under The Teachers Pens ion Act to obviate thaneed for a retired teacher to continue to make contributions. to the fund. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (St. John's) : Will it be retroactive, Mr. Chairman? MR. JOHNSON: I'll have to check that. I don't know about retroactivity there. Alld of course those specific questions asked about raw scores and so on, I just don't know what the honourable member is referring to and I've asked the department to look into it.

But I would like above aU to indicate that the Department of Education are very pleased with the exciting developments in the past year in the whole area of curriculum attitude and the need to do whatever we can to lntroduce these courses in such a way that our t.eaching profession can understand them and can handle them when they're installed. HON. GURNEY EV ANS (F ort Rouge): l\!Ir. Chairman, is there any disposition on the part of the House to let the Minister have his salary and to ask ..•. MR. DESJ ARDINS: Just a few questions wouldn •t take very long but I don't think it would be advisable. MR .

EV ANS: Well I think we want to meet the •-vishes of the House in that regard. For that reason and because it1s Private Members this afternoon, I move the committee rise. MR . CHAJRMAN: Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the committee wishes to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SE SSION W ill, COW AN : Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina, that the report of the committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: It is now l::l:30 and I leave the Chair until 2:30 this afternoon. r

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-5-37
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 5th hansardpdf 37.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e21c7f5fa4b2addf799a62cac15851c554a58276

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