Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 27 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 o'clock, Friday, February 22, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. IN'l'RODUCTION OFT GUESTS 689 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 17 students, Grade 9 standing of the Queen Elizabeth School . These students are under the direction of Mrs. Gunson. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. We also have 65 students of Grade 5 standing of the Ryerson Elementary School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Szues and Mrs.

Hartley and Webster. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. Pres enting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions. PETIT IONS MR. CLERK: The petition of the Mount Carmel Clinic praying for the passing of the Mount Carmel Clinic Act. MR. SPEAKER: Prese nting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Industry and Co mmerce. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS HON. LEONARD S.

EVANS (Minis ter of Indus try and Commerce) (Bra ndon East): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take the opportunity to table a report compiled by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics. I have copies for members, and I'd also like to make a brief statement and I have copies for members of the statement that I would like to make in connection with this particular report. This, Mr. Speaker, is the first report compiled by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics on consumer food prices for 19 selected communities in Northern Manitoba.

This is the first stage in the compilation of various consumer prices in the northern part of our province. Indeed, Sir, it is the fulfilment of an election commitment made last summer that the New Democratic government upon its re-election would conduct a northern prices survey. And although this report relates to the month of January 1974, it is our intention to publish other reports from time to time in the future. The report contains a series of spatial price indexes; that is, the levels of food costs in all cases are compared with the level existing in the City of Winnipeg in the month of January.

Upon examination of the figures in the various communi ties, members can observe variations. The lowest index is for the City of Thompson which had 109. 13, means that on the average food prices there are about 9 percent higher than that in the City of Winnipeg. The highest index, which was for the community of Oxford House, is 152. 06 and that is, of course, a 52 percent differential with Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, examining the figures contained in the reports, I would suggest that all members should note that there are at least three fundamental factors at work in prices.

First of all the distance involved from the City of Winnipeg is a great factor - the sheer distance involved. Secondly, the type of transport, whether it be air transport, road transport or rail transport. It's obvious, Sir, that air transport tends to be higher cost service than road, for example. And the third element is the size of community because you'll find in larger communities there are larger stores which have gre�ter through-put and also there's more competition.

Other surveys will be conducted in the future to show other elements in consumption expenditures and also indicate transportation costs variation. I must emphasize to all members, Mr. Speaker, that these figures do not give you a comparison of the standard of living in these communities. This is because there are other factors that must be taken into account such as other consumer expenditure items, and of course in particular the wages paid and the incomes earned in these communities. I'd also say, Mr.

Speaker, that these price differentials have existed in one degree or another throughout the history of this province. We've always known that food prices have been higher in various remote communities in the north of this province as indeed they are

69 0 February 22, 19 74 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF RE PORTS (MR. EVANS Cont'd) ...•• higher in other remote areas in Canada. However, Mr. Speaker, we now have a document which provides data of a kin9 that is available for no other province in Canada, which enable s us to measure price patterns in the north in a systematic and precise manner. I'm sure that this data will be of great value to various levels of government, municipal, provincial and federal, in their collective concerns for the welfare of the people in these communities.

Indeed, as road transport to the north improves, as it has over the past few years, we would expect to see a lessening in the differences of food price levels between Winnipeg and these northern communities. Nevertheless, it must be realized, Mr. Speaker, that food prices are also a function of sheer distance and also of retail practices of individual stores and the degree of competition that exists within these communities. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his statement.

I should indicate at the outset that while there is a suggestion in his prepared text that we have a document which provides data of a kind that is available for no other province, I should refer him to the fact that the Federal Government have a survey on comparative weekly food costs carried out in 197 1 for Northern Manitoba communities by the Medical Services Branch, federal Department of National Health and Welfare. Mr.

Speaker, it's interesting to note that with respect to the percentage increase shown in 197 1 between Winnipeg and Oxford House -- and I'll take that as the example because I don't have the other statistics, I only have the reference made in the statement to Oxford House - but if the difference in 19 71 was 54. 8 percent and the difference projected here is 52. 06 percent, it means, Mr. Speaker, that really there is very little saving that has occurred to the people in terms of their cost of living for food from the period of 19 7 1 to the past period of 197 3. And that's very interesting, Mr.

Speaker, because it goes to the heart of the basic concern with respect to the problems of winter roads. And in this respect, Mr. Speaker, I think for the benefit of the Minister because it's relevant to his statement, that I would refer him again to a study undertaken by the University of Manitoba titled, "A Note on the Cost of Living in the North, Food Prices in Small Northern Manitoba Settlements", and to the conclusion which states that the study provides evidence that northern prices are higher than those in Winnipeg for reasons other than transportation costs. Mr.

Speaker, I would believe that the statement produced by the Minister from his department -- the Department of Statistics, would more than justify the legislative inquiry that we've requested to deal with the costs of food and the costs of goods generally in Northern Manitoba in the remote communities, and the problem of whether the winter road program is really accomplishing the objective of reducing the cost of the people who in fact reside in those remote communities. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, we thank the Minister for the statement and compliment the Statistics Division for, after I guess two years of holding our breath, producing its own report based on its own data, and we hope that this kind of thing will be expanded to other areas of the economy so that we will be able to deal more precisely with the problems that confront the people of the province from time to time.

The statement - and I look forward to reading the statistics - refers to differentials in the cost of Uving in the most vital area, the cost of food, differentials which we have alluded to in this House many times over the past few years but never have had this kind of precise data. Now that we have it, we can readily see that the situation is unacceptable as I'm sure the Minister will agree. The suggestion that we made two years ago seems even more relevant today, that being that if this differential exists, we will look to this government to bring in speedy remedies in the areas in which it can act speedily.

One of those areas remains the minimum wage in the north. You may recall we said that because of this problem that has now been so eloquently documented by the Minister's Division of Statistics, that the economic structure, the structure of the north, must now be adjusted to reflect and to take into account the reality of the cost of living. We would again restate that need. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, I think the evidence that the Minister has put before us this morning brings into real question the whole winter road temporary project because it does not appear to be cutting the cost as we had hoped, and perhaps at this stage we should now be

February 22> 19 74 691 MIN ISTERIAL STATE MENTS AND TAB LING OF REPORTS (MR. ASPER Co nt' d ) ••••• co nsiderin g the establishmen t of a permanent road system. Beca use of the millio n s of dollars we 're spen ding in the aggregate over a period of years on temporary road s which have to be built each year an d don't seem to be doing the job, we wo uld comme nd to the Minister an d to the Minister of Highways agai n the prospect of buil ding a permanent road, particularly from Winni peg , through the east sid e of Lake Wi nni peg up to the to p of the lake , Norway House , Island Lake an d so on. Mr.

Speaker, I think what the Mi nister has said to us this morning is that we now have sharp enou gh data to be able to come to grip s with the problem in measurable terms an d we look forward to action from the government in this regard; MR . SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BUR TNIAK (Mi nister of Highways) (Dau phi n): Mr. Speaker, I' d like to table the reports of the Highway Traffic an d Motor Transport Boar d, Provincial Transport Boar d, an d the Taxicab Boar d, Annual Re ports for 19 73. Co pies are available for all members. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Agricultu re.

HON. SA MUE L USKIW (Minister of Agricultu re) {Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, members may be intereste d to know the results of the beef referendum an d I wish to put on the record the results this morning. For the referendum or in favor of the check-off, we have 43 percent of the voters voting in favor , for a total of 2, 451 ; 57 percent agai nst for a total of 3, 245, 40 spoiled ballots, an d the total vote represents 78 percent of those registered to vote. MR. SPEAKE R: Any other .•• the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr.

Speaker, I wo uld like to thank the Minister for the results of the vote that he has give n to us as a result of the ballots bei n g co unte d yester day in regard s to the referendum on the check-off for beef in the Province of Manitoba. I thi nk, Mr. Speaker, I wo uld just like to make a few comments on this matter ; that it in dicates to the Mi nister of Agricult ure in this provi nce when he tells us of the results which in dicates that they are opposed to this check-off , an d I think , Mr.

Speaker, it relates to what has been goi n g on in the De partmen t of Agricult ure for the past , I wo uld say fo ur, five , six mo nths, an d from the comme nts that I have ha d from farmers in the past mo nth or so they were con cerned as to just how mu ch democratic process was going to be adhered to if this vote was ma d e in the affirmative. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that the farmers of Manitoba have lost com plete confi dence in the Mi nister of Agric ult ure an d ma n y other departments , an d this is one example , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Mi nisterial State me nts or Tablin g of Reports?

Notices of Motio n; Introductio n of Bills ; the Honourable Mi nister of Agricult ure. INTRODUCTION OF BI LL S MR. USKIW: Wo uld yo u have th at matter stand, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Very well. The Hono urable Member for Min nedosa. MR. DA VID BL AKE (Mi nn edosa) introduce d Bill No. 26 ,

an Act to Incorporate The Min n edosa Fo undation. ORA L QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Oral Qu estions. The Honourable Lea der of the Opposition. MR. SPI VAK: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day my qu estion is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Housing an d Renewal Corporatio n .

I wo nder if the Minister ca n co nfirm that the Ma nitoba Housi ng an d Renewal Corporation has spent approximately a half a million dollars for premises locate d on the 21 st floor of the Senior Citize n s Home at 18 5 Smith - I believe it's calle d Smith House - which premises have been vacant for two years since its com pletio n by the Manitoba Housing an d Renewal Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. HON. SAU L A. MIL LER (Minister of Health an d Social Develo pment) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, there are premises at , I thi n k it's 18 5 Smith Street.

I don't know whether it's two years, I thi n k the official opening was three mo nths ago beca use I was involve d in that. I cannot verify the amo unts or the fig ures in dicate d by the Leader of the Opposition . I'll take that as notice.

69 2 February 22, 197 4 ORA L QUESTIONS MR . SPI VAK: I wo nder if the Mi nister, then , ca n take as notice an d presen t to this House the reason s for these premises bei n g leased by the Manitoba Housi ng an d Re newal Corporatio n, and why such an enormou s amo unt of mo ney was spent. MR. MIL LER: We ll, Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that the premises are to be used by the Ma nitoba Housi ng an d Re newal Corporatio n for their of fices. MR .

SPI VAK: I wo nder, then , if the Minister ca n co nfirm or will co nfirm by taki n g as notice that the premises have been com plete d an d vaca n t for two years approximately. MR . MI LLER: Mr. Speaker, I ca n't co nceive that they've been com plete d an d vaca n t for two years but I'll take the qu estio n as notice. MR. SPI V AK: Mr. Speaker, I wo nder if the Minister will also co nfirm that alt hou gh the premises are locate d on the 21 st floor the elevator only goes to the 20th floor. MR . MI LL ER: Mr.

Speaker, I ca nnot co nfirm that ; I have n't been up there, but then of co urse we walk the stairs every day an d I su ppose the staff of the MHRC mig ht have to do the same. MR . SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Mi nister of Agricult ure.

I wo nder if he's yet in.a positio n to answer a qu estio n I pu t to him three or fo u r days ago , the qu estio n bei ng: has he or anybod y in his departmen t give n instructio n s for the wit hdrawal or destructio n of a pamphlet printe d by his departmen t known as Fl axseed an d Ra peseed Fu tu res, Ca n They Be Used To Adva ntage By Practici n g Farmers ? an d written by R. S. Mitc hell? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agricult ure. MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, my understanding of it was, an d I'm sure Hansard wo uld bear me ou t, that I had asked the honourable member to submit me some evi dence so that I co uld follow up. I am not sure of what he is spea king abo ut, Mr. Speaker. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, I'm prepared to table the pamphlet ; I'm tabli n g it. Mr. Speaker, . . . MR. USKIW: I wo nder whet her the honourable member wo uld agree to give me the source of his information. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, the source of my information is the pamphlet , whic h I didn't have at the time I asked the qu estio n but has since come into my hands.

As I said in the House , I hadn't seen the pamphlet until this morning whic h .. . MR. SPEAKER: Qu estio n please . MR . ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. My questio n is , where ca n farmers obtai n a co p y of this pamphlet an d why was it wit hdrawn if it has bee n wit hdrawn? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day . The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Well , Mr. Speaker, my qu estio n then to the Minister wo uld be: how ma n y pamphlets of this ki nd were printe d, an d at whose instruc tions an d at what cost? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I did undertake to find ou t for the honourable member an d we are awaiti n g the information from the departmen t . MR. ASPER: Well , Mr. Speaker, wo uld the Minister tell the House whet her the stateme n t ma d e by Gor don Gra ham , Presi dent of the Manitoba Ra peseed Growers Associatio n, is correct .. . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please . I do not believe it's co nducive to the proce dures of this House for a Mi nister to verify someo n e else's stateme n t ou tsi d e of the House. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR. ASPER: Well , Mr.

Speaker, does the Minister co ncu r that the Ma nitoba Gover n me n t gave instructio ns, somebod y in his departmen t gave instructio n s for the destructio n of this pamphlet on the ground s that it co ntai ned . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Again the honourable member is expressin g an opinio n whic h becomes argumentative . Will he place his qu estio n ? The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, was the docume n t destroye d - to the Mi nister of Agricult ure - because it co ntai ned opinio n s on farm policy that he disagreed wit h ? MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture . MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I said in the House the ot her day that I have not yet seen the docume nt, so I really can't answer that qu estio n. I have never issued instructio n s from my of fice for the removal of any docume n t an d I have never au thorize d the printi n g of one so I . . .

February 22, 197 4 69 3 ORA L QUEST IONS MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SH ER MAN (Fort Garry): Tha n k you , Mr. Spea ker. My questio n is to the Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. Will the Mi nister be meeti n g today with the federal Health Minister, Mr. Marc Lalo nde, on the subject of the Ca nadian Football League's future vis-a-vis the World Football League franchise in Toronto? MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Tourism and Recreation . HON. RENE E.

TOU PJN (Minister of Tourism, Recreatio n and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield): No , Mr. Speaker, I had not inte nded or had not planned to meet the federal Minister of Health and Welfare in regards to either the Ca nadian Football League or the proposed World Football League enterin g Ca nada. But I am , Mr.

Spea ker, quite happy to have heard the stateme n t made by the federal Minister of Healt h and Welfare in regards to what ca n be don e to safeguard the Ca nadian Football League and, as the Honourable Member for Fort Garry is well aware, there was a joi n t stateme n t sen t by the committ ee , the informal committee struck here composed of himself, the Member for Assiniboia and myself, to the federal Minister of Health and Welfare last week , such telegram goi n g to each Premier in every provi nce in Ca nada and all of my colleagues across the cou n try, and this is now bei n g co nfirmed in writin g by the three western Mi nisters in charge of sports to the federal Mi nister of Health and Welfare , to all the MP 1s from Ma nitoba and all Premiers in Canada.

MR. SH ER MAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister received any response from the federal Health Mi nister to that communicatio n ? MR. TOU PJN: Well , Mr. Speaker, I have n't checked my mail this morning but I hadn't yesterday. MR. SP EAKER: The Honou rable Member for Mi nnedosa. MR. BL AKE: Tha n k you , Mr. Speaker. My ques tio n will be directed to the Mi nister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation .

In view of the substantial increased losses evide nced by the stateme n t that was tabled yesterday , would the Mi nister inform the House what steps he is planni ng to take in attempts to preven t a similar recurrence of such a staggerin g loss agai n this year? . MR. SP EAKER: The Ho nourable Minister. HON. BI LLI E URUSKI (Minister responsible for the Ma nitoba Public Insurance Corporation ) (St . George): The steps were an nou nced in Novemb er, Mr. Speaker. MR. BL AKE: A supplementary questio n, Mr. Speaker. It would seem on the surface that these increases in rates aren't goi n g to be sufficie n t to ...

MR. SP EAKER: Questio n please. MR. BL AKE: Would the Minister co nfirm to the House that whe n the losses are compiled from this year's operatio n, will he be prepared to recommen d increases. in Autopac rates suf ficien t to cover the losses and keep abreast of the increasin g prices? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, firstly I'd like to correct, the an nounceme n t was made in December, but if I had a crystal ball in fron t of me and I could predict what the acciden t rate for 197 4 will be , I would be able to give the ho nourable member the answer. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR.

STE VE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I have a questio n for the Honourable Minister of Corporate and Co nsumer Affairs. My questio n is to the Mi nister of Corporate and Co nsumer Affairs. Mr. Speaker, can the Mi nister advise the House whether butter imported from Irela n d is bei n g distributed by Ma nitoba dairies to retail stores in Wi nnipeg ? MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Co nsumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. IAN TURNBU LL (Mi nister of Co nsumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, in the world of private enterprise anythi n g is possible, and if the Member for Assiniboia fi nds that questio n of interest I will attempt to fi n d an answer for him. MR. PATR ICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Ca n the Mi nister advise the House why Irish butter is not designated as such in the stores? MR . TURNBU LL : Mr. Speaker, the Member for Assiniboia should know that the labellin g of commodities sold in stores is a matter of federal jurisdiction and is properly addressed to my cou nterpart in Ottawa . MR. PA TRICK: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the Mi nister has some responsibility in

69 4 February 22, 197 4 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PATRICK Cont'd) •• .•• this area. Can the Minister undertake to ascertain, is there a shortage of Manitoba butter in Manitoba ? MR. TURN BULL: Mr.

Speaker,. as I said, if the member has an interest in this area, I can attempt to find an answer to his ques tion but I must point out to him that there is no statutory authority for me to find out or to require private entrepreneurs or marketing boards or any other group engaged in the distribution of food products to give me information as to their inventory, their price structure, the indus trial structure in which they are operating in, or any kind of other information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERS ON (Pembina) : Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Does he know that Morden Fine Foods have been known to take off their own label and put on other labels so as to sell their product? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder whether that question is neces sary to procedures of this House: whether the Minister is aware or not. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture.

Can the Minister advise the House whether there has been a shortage of Class 1 milk in Manitoba in the last four months ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I did answer that question yesterday in .answer to a question put to me by the Member for Morris. There has never been a shortage to my knowledge of Class 1 milk but there is a plant requirement shortage of about 8 percent. MR. BANMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister advise the difference, the price differential between Class 1 and Class 2 milk as it's paid to the producer ? MR.

USKIW: I'm not sure that I can be precise, but there is a substantial difference, Class 2 being about 6 1/ 4 a hundredweight, Class 1 somewhere in excess of $8. 00 MR . BANMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In the production of powdered milk, can the Minister advise if Class 2 milk is then used ? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, it's quite possible that even Class 3 milk is being used, but that doesn't take anything away from the quality of milk consumed, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Development Corporation. Does the Development Corporation have a loan outstanding in favor of Auby Galpern's Famous Foods Limited ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Miirlster of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wouldn't verify as to the legal description of the borrower, but there is a loan outstanding and I believe that there is a receivership involved to a person who does business, to the individual concerned who does business, in a name which I'm not able to legally describe at this moment. If the legal des cription that the honour able member has given is correct, then it would be true. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. I believe he indicated that there was a receivership.

Can he confirm that the company has in fact ceased operations and that the government has gone in and that there's an anticipated loss to the Manitoba Deve lopment Corporation arising from this ? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I indicated there was a receivership; that 's about as far as I can go at the moment. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to dis tribute to honourable members the document that I promised relative to the possible adverse effects on water quality in Manitoba resulting from the Garrison Diversion Project in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I want to make it plain that what is now being distributed has been made public on several previous occasions but, since it was asked for, I am now giving it in the usual way so that copies can be given to parties in the House. I was also asked a question with regard to the deer inthe DuckMountains having difficulty obtaining food because of high snowfall. The honourable member is correct; there is a problem with deer in those areas; the snow is much higher than average figures and as usual, or as is customary when such circumstances prevail, the Department tries to facilitate the obtaining of

February 22> 19 74 695 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN Cont'd) •.•.. food by these animals. Howev er, it is fair to say that we're not going to be able to solve all of the problems, that there will be some loss of deer due to the fact that they are unable to obtain food. Of course this is a situation that prevails with nature. We try to do certain things about it but we can't cure the entire problem. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

I wordar if the Minister can advise the House if CFI will have to shut down for part of this year due to shortage of pulpwood. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the same Minister-- can the Minister confirm that 16 out of the 45 trucks that are hauling for Manitoba Forest Resources in the Cranberry Portage area have pulled off the job in the past month because of dangerous road conditions in the 20 accidents that have occurred this winter? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm that. I'll have to take the question as notice. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the same Minister could confirm that it's the responsibility of the Manitoba Forest Resources or the Churchill Forest Industries to maintain these roads. MR. GREEN: Well , Mr. Speaker, again I would like to take the entire subject matter as notice. I am not able to confirm what the honourable member is asking me to confirm. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 40 students of the Sanford Collegiate of Grade IX standing. They are under the direction of Mr. Hew.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Morris. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the reported fertilizer shortage in the United Stat es, could the Minister inform the House as to whether or not there is adequate supplies on hand for the spring work in Manitoba? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that fertilizer is not a utility and something not over which government is responsible, I cannot give him that kind of assurance, but I can indicate to him that the fertilizer companies in Canada have indicated to us that they have substantially increased the amount of supply over last year. Whether that is going to be sufficient , I am not sure. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, my question would normally be directed to the Minister of Education , but in his absence I would direct it to the Honourable the First Minister and ask him if his government is contemplating changes this year in the Education Foundation grant structure, and if so when these will be announced. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable First Minist.::r. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Well , Mr.

Speaker, during recent years we have made changes in the grants made available to school divisions, whether as part of the Foundation Program or as part of the amount of grants made available outside the Foundation Program. The end result, however , Sir , has been a substantial increase in the provincial contribution towards the costs of elementary and secondary education in Manitoba. MR. McGILL: A supplementary question , Mr. Speaker. Will these changes, if they are made , be made available in time for them to • . , ? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The question is hypotheticaL MR.

MC GILL: May I rephrase the questi on , Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Very well. MR. MCGILL: The changes in the grant structure which may occur, will they be available to the school divisions in time for realistic budgeting, which I understand has to be completed very shortly? MR. SCHREYER: Wdl , Mr. Speaker, there is no way to indicate in advance of the Budget Speech the precise amount of any change in grant support. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First

696 February 22; 197 4 ORAL QUES TIONS (MR. AXWORTHY Cont'd) •.••• Minister acting as the Minister of Urban Affairs. In light of the fact that the Provincial Government's grants to the City of Winnipeg are to expire this year, can the Minister advise us whether the government plans to extend the grants to the City of Winnipeg to cover the continual cost of amalgamation? MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, there is an assumption in that question which is simply not accepted at all. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary ..• Mr.

Speaker, would the First Minister tell us, has he met with city officials to discuss whether there will be continued assistance to the City of Winnipeg to cover the costs that were incurred through amalgamation? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that question has the same assumption, which is again dismisse d. MR. AXWORTHY: I'll rephrase it so the Minister will understand. Does the government intend to extend its • • • MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I would suggest to the honourable member that he reconsider what he's going to ask. A rephrasing of a similar question which has been answered is not conducive to our rules.

MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I may have been using a term that was not acceptable to the Minister. The point of the question that was being asked was: does the government intend to continue or extend the transitional grant that was given to the City of Winnipeg two years ago at the time of the change in the Act, to the City of Winnipeg ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is referring to the transitional assistance grant, which was a grant that was made available in order to take, through a period of transition of three years, adjustment in relative mill rates that are being levied, and as such it related to individua ls .

It was not a grant which related to any increased costs as a result of amalgamation, because that, Sir, would require a close comparison be tween the percentage increase in municipal costs in the days before the City of Winnipeg Act was passed as compared to the municipal cost pattern of increase since that Act has gone into effect. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 60 students of the Beausejour Collegiate of Grade 9 standing. They are under the direction of Messrs. Linden, Schmidt and Harrison.

This school is located in the constituency of Lac du Bonnet, the Minister of Agriculture, I believe. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUE STIONS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr •. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Develop ment. Will changes in the Pharmaceutical Act be brought fnrward this Session that drug assistance towards senior citizens will be more meaningful ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, there may be amendments to the Act. I cannot accept the statement that the Pharmacare program is not at present meaningful. It's the most meaningful program ever established in this field in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Attorney-General. Why are the bombardier drivers on the winter roads in Northern Manitoba being required to either get off the roads or else obtain driver's licens es, which they never had to have previously ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON.

HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I am presently looking into all the circumstances pertaining to that. I would like to, however, mention to the honourable member that the Highway Traffic Act very specifically requires the obtaining of a permit by one using a highway, and included in the definition of a highway is a road that

February 22 , 19 74 ORAL QUEST IONS (MR. PAWLEY Cont'd) .•••. could be considered a winter road, so that it is certainly within the provisions of the law that a permit be issued for use of such a road. 69 7 MR. G. JOHNSTON: Another question to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Where are the men to go in that area to obtain a driver's license, and is there a qualified tester in any of the communities of Hole River , God's Narrows, places like that? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, when this information came to my attention that there was some question as to the enforcement of this provision of the Highway Traffic Act , I have as a result requested information as to whether or not there is easily available means to obtain a driver's license within short and reasonable notice , and I am awaiting that-report. Once I have received that report then I will know just how to deal with the subject matter at hand. MR. G. JOHNSTON: In the meantime are the bombardiers and drivers kept off the road while that report is being awaited? MR. PA WLEY: Well , Mr.

Speaker, in the opinion of the RC MP , who are responsible for the enforcement of the traffic provisions in the north, driver's permits ought to be issued and they are enforcing the law as they see it. But as I have indicated earlier, I'm obtaining a complete report so that I can ascertain whether or not reasonable notice should be required. We ought to suggest reasonable notice so that those affected can obtain driver's permits. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister in charge of Autopac.

In view of the fact that there have been 20 accidents on this Kississing road which is maintained by a Crown corporation this winter, involving about $250, 000 damage, will the Minister give consideration to waiving the penalty surcharges to the owners and operators who will be affected by increased Autopac rates due to these accidents? Will he give consideration to waiving these surcharges for these particular owners? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, if the vehicles involved are in a fleet, the accident frequency and their ratings will be calculated on their year's performance. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, -1 want to direct a question to the Minister in charge of Autopac. Would he not consider that 20 accidents out of 45 vehicles with six of them being turned over trucks, would this not be a special case that he could consider and examine in conjunction with the Minister of Mines and Resources to see if something can't be done about the improvident cost, not only on the owners, but on Autopac? MR. URUSKI: Obviously , Mr.

Speaker, there should be some care and attention given to the driving habits of the drivers and the like in the transportation, but I am sure that the owners of those vehicles are cognizant as to the care to be undertaken insofar as their claims are concerned. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, given the conditions the Minister has indicated , would he undertake to examine whether or not the roads or the drivers are at fault in this particular case? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I think the Highway Traffic Act is clear in this area, that the driver of a vehicle should drive according to the conditions of the road. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the roads in question are those roads provided by a Crown corporation and effectively are on private property ... MR. SPEAKER: Question , please. MR. CRAIK: •.• but the insurance on the vehicles , Mr. Speaker, comes under Autopac ••. MR. SPEAKER: Question , question please. MR. CRAIK: .•. would he not examine this special case? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to suggest to the House that today, this morning , an announcement was made by the federal Minister of Health and Welfare with regard to the basic annual income experiment to take place in Manitoba. lt' s the largest experiment of its kind in Canada ever undertaken, and I think it would be a benefit and of interest to mem bers of the House to know more about it.

I don't profess to be too knowledgeable or expert at it and I would like to suggest to the House that through the Whips perhaps an arrangement could be set up where by morning or perhaps prior to the sitting of the House some afternoon,

698 February 22, 1974 ORAL QUE STIONS (MR. MILLER Cont'd) .•••• if the Whips are in agreement, they could decide on a day a technical briefing could be set up so that those members who are interested, we could have technical staff who could explain the program, the design in the program, the objectives of the program and how it's going to operate. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. Order for Return. The Honourable Merr.ber for Fort Rouge. ORDERS OF THE DAY - ORDER FOR RET URN MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, moved by myself, seconded by the Member from Assiniboia, that an Order of the House do issu e for a Re turn with respect to the Manitoba Student Employment Program and the Student Placement Office, showing the foliowing information for the years 1972 and 1973: 1)

a) The name, salary and expenses of the director;

b) the name, salary and expenses of any other employees. 2) For each year show a constituency breakdown of:

a) the number of applications received. How many male ? How many female ?

i) with respect to the above, show the number of jobs given to residents of the City of Winnipeg and the number of jobs given to the residents in the remaining part of Manitoba; ii) with respect to the jobs given to residents of the City of Winnipeg, show how many worked outside of Winnipeg;

b) the number of positions filled for each year;

c) the average salary received by the successful applicants;

d) the highest salary paid per month and/or per week;

e) the average duration of the position in each case;

f) of the positions filled by this department, were any of more than three months duration ? If so, describe position giving duration and salary received;

g) all of the criteria for placing or not placing an applicant;

h) the number of successful applicants for each of the Provincial Constituencies for each year. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the order is accepted and in accepting it I merely point out that while I believe that the information is available almost exactly as requested in each of the parts of the question. there may be some difficulty with respect to getting a constituency breakdown - certainly there is a regional breakdown and figures available - but we will attempt to provide the information as required. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Adjourned debates.

GOVERNMENT BILLS - BILL NO. 7 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 7. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to make some comments on Bill No. 7,

an Act to amend The Civil Service Act, and I'm sorry that the Minister of Labour is absent this morning because it was to him that I wished to direct my remarks particularly, since he has introduced this bill. I think it came up for reading in the House on the 14th day of February. I don't think there's anything significant about the choice of dates by the Minister of Labour, because in reading the bill I find no particular Valentine's mes sage involved for the Civil Service or for the people of Manitoba.· But, Mr.

Speaker, I have been concerned about the main thrust of this legislation since it was first introduced to the House d!lring the last Session. and I did not have an opportunity at that time to place my views on the record, but I have had them in my mind since that date and I hope that on this occasion I will find the words ti:J.at will properly refiect my concern for the thrust and the direction of the bill before us. Mr. Speaker, much of the bill, as the Minister has already indicated, is concerned with housekeeping affairs -o f tidying up, I think his phrase was - but there are two principal

February22, 19 74 699 GO VERN MENT BI LLS - BI LL NO 7 (MR. McG ILL Cont'd) •.••• directions: one , that the machinery for enabling civil servants to act as candidates in political elections is spelled out , and in this respect I think there is general concurrence that this is a desirable statement , a desirable way in which the path is made clear for civil servants who aspire to political office. It is in the second area, however , Mr.

Speaker, that I do feel that we need to be particularly concerned, and that is in the area in which the bill would enable civil servants to concern themselves with political activity during elections in the province orwithout the province, and it represents, Mr. Speaker, a very major change in the Civil Service Act. I think I am moved to enter this debate for two reasons, the first being that I have acquired through personal experience and through listening to others whose comments I appreciate, I have acquired an admiration and a respect for the Civil Service in Manitoba.

I think , secondly, that I subscribe to the notion that a strong Civil Service is an essential part of the kind of democratic government that we choose to support in Manitoba; that the two are by themselves not effective , but together create the proper environment for democratic action to be translated into administrative activ ity , and for the province to prosper as a result. I think this high esteem for the Manitoba Civil Service is something that goes well beyond the borders of our province, and in this connection I would like to quote the remarks which I heard W. L.

Morton make at a seminar at Brandon University some years ago , when he was discussing the Province of Manitoba , its features and its directions and its future. And I think it's of interest and I would like to put on the record his comments in respect to this Civil Service of Manitoba . He was discussing those things which he would choose as newer and distinctively Manitoban in the development of our province.

He picked out three areas in which he felt Manitoba had something new and distinctive to offer, and he said, "It is a daring thing to attempt to list some of them , but I must , even if I am to suggest a historical perspective. My choices may surprise you but it is, I find, a matter which requires some thought.

First, the development of the institutions of public ownership- Winnipeg Hydro, Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Telephones." And next, he said, in his order of priority among things distinctively Manitoban, "I would place the building up of a provincial Civil Service which gave the province always a devoted service and by its ablest men distinguished service. It was to become careful administrators of its resources, the prudent managers of its finances, and the imaginative planners of its development .

As one who has lived elsewhere at various times in his life , I am bound to say how well Manitoba has been served by its Civil Service and what a strength it has in that Service . " Mr.

Speak er, I think those words adequately express my own views on the fine institution of the Civil Service in our province, and I think it's also significant to recall that while there are relatively few times in this Chamber when we seem to have unanimity of opinion, of general approval, one of those times is in the presentation of a Minister's Estimates when he chooses to single out a particular civil servant for commendation , and it is on those occasions when this House joins together in its expressions of approval.

I recall particularly the Attorney-General in his Estimates chose to mention a civil servant who he had relied upon and whose retirement was taking place at that time , and I also recall the general approval which that commendation from the Minister received. It's not often tha:t this House agrees but it is usually in areas like this that we come together and express our approval.

The Minister of Labour is presenting this bill in a somewhat pious way , I thou ght , said that he was going to remove the second-class stigma from the Civil Service of Manitoba by providing them with some new areas of activity. -- (Interjection)-- Well , Mr. Speaker, I don't know what there is second-class about the Civil Service of Manitoba. I feel that it is first-class and that we on this side would feel that we are well served by the members of that service, and a service the lustre of which extends and tl:J.e reputation of which extends well beyond the boundaries of this province.

The Minister has felt that because a condition of employment was placed in the Civil Service Act which specifically required that the Civil Servant remain impartial in his administration of the affairs of the province and that he not take particular

part in political activity in the province , it was placed there for a very important reason, I think a reason no less valid today and perhaps more valid today than it was at the time the legislators of this Chamber, in their wisdom, decided that this was an appropriate condition of employment for

700 February 22, 19 74 GOVERNMENT BILLS - BILL NO. 7 (MR. McGILL Cont'd) ..•.• civil servants. The Minister regards this as a restriction which should not be placed upon people who apply to this province to become members of its staff. Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe the legislators were perhaps equal in wisdom to the Minister of Labour when they chose to impose this condition of employment. And in my view, Mr. Speaker, the condition of employment is there for one purpose and for one purpose only.

It is to prevent imposters from applying for employment as civil servants in Manitoba, and an imposter in my view would be one who really wasn't interested in serving the people of Manitoba but one who was more interested in using that position to influence the political activity in the Province of Manitoba. And I think, Mr.

Speaker, to remove that condition of employment would be somewhat comparable to the sort of confusion that we have allowed to creep into our institutions of public ownership, and it's odd that two distinctively Manitoban developments which the historian has chosen should be areas in which this government, I think, are particularly active. And in the institution of public ownership, we find a direction being taken by this government where they are attempting to be, not only the regulators of the activity, but also the operators in that field, and I think that this is weakening this.

If it was indeed at one time a distinctively Manitoba development, I think that the experience and in the developments that are taking place under this government's supervision are tending to take away from that image and that successful operation that hitherto was the result of some very early decisions, at least they were taken some years ago, for public activity in the field of hydro and in the field of telephone and so on. But now we are attempting to somehow involve the Civil Service in not only an admi nistrative function, but in a function which would provide the direction of the legislators themselve s.

I think that our job in here as legislators is to provide the directions and for the administrators to carry out those directions to the best of their ability and in a very impartial manner. Mr. Speaker, I foresee that to change this situation would be to weaken the position and to weaken the effective job that the Manitoba Civil Service is doing in our province. I think it might be a fair analogy to suggest that the political activity that rises and falls in our province could be compared with the oceanic tides.

Political activity rises and falls on the cycle of elections and by-elections, but the Manitoba Civil Service is, in my view, similar to a breakwater that would be fixed in its position, would tend to provide the continuity, the regular continuous function of administration during those periods when we have the high tides of political activity, those periods which immediately precede elections in our province.

And I think that kind of breakwater prevents any permanent damage or erosion to our province because it is firmly fixed, it is immovable no matter whether the tides are running high or are ebbing, as they are at this moment, immediately following an election. I think it's significant that the Minister of Labour chose to leave this bill at the dissolution or prior to the dissolution of the last Session on the Order Paper, because he's in his political wisdom figured that it might be the kind of action that would be hard to accept with an elec tion immediately following. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder what the situation would be in this building if this legislation were to pass. With by-elections coming up, I suggest that the members of the Civil Service would be quite free to speak on behalf of any candidate or any particular political party and I would imagine that a day or two or three or even a week before an election we might find a political meeting at the water coolers in the hall, and that there might be some pretty strong differences of opinion expressed. There is nothing in the act that would prevent the civil servant from making his speech in his office, I presume.

It doesn't say where he may speak. I presume that if this kind of activity took place in our building we might have to increase the security guard in order that these political meetings might not get out of hand, but this of course might be difficult too because the security guards might be busy with their own particular political meetings, and there would not be any reason why a civil servant might not wear his red, white and blue Progressive-Co nservative sweat shirt or T-shirt to the office. I would think this would be fair ball in the carrying out of an election.

And I suppose there would be a few yellow and black shirts of the New Democratic Party visible in the halls. Mr. Speaker, I think this would add nothing and would certainly be a divisive factor in the activities of the Civil Service in Manitoba, if we were to condone or to encourage this kind of separation on a political bias . Mr. Speaker, while this sounds like it might be an exaggeration of what might happen in this Legislative Building. I think it is something that we should regard with the greatest

Fe b ruar y 22, 19 74 701 BILL No. 7 (MR. McG ILL co n t'd) ••• serio usness. I feel that this piece of legislation has some vario us, ver y real and ver y dangerou s implicatio n s for the Provi nce of Ma nito ba. The Mi nister of La bou r, an d agai n I regret he is not in his seat , he has been in the Ho use for a great num ber of years; I'm not sure just how ma ny but I thi nk he has been here lo nger than an y ot her mem ber of this Legislat ure that is now sitti ng, and I thi nk that it is, in my view , Mr.

Spea ker, re gretta ble that the Mi nister should at this time be concernin g himself wit h an activit y whic h I feel ca n do nothi n g bu t detract from the position and the co ntribution of the Civil Service of Ma nito b a . It seems to me that he should be, in what ma y be his fi nal session in this Leg is lat ure perhaps, co n cerning himself wit h . " . A ME MBER : Never.· MR . McGILL : ••. ceme nti n g and adorning the struct ure of the civil service, improvin g its stat ure and addin g to its lustre. Bu t it seems to me , Mr.

Spea ker, that rather tha n do this the Mi nister is at the mome nt bu s y at the fo undatio n s of the Civil Service of Ma nito ba and if he is at the ver y basis of the struct ure it 's apparentl y his endeavo ur to float this struct ure free and let it move back and forth with the political tides in Ma nito ba. If that happen s , Mr. Spea ker, I feel that there will be seriou s and permanent erosion in ou r provi nce .

We will no lo nger be able to depen d on a co nti nuit y of the administration at least of the province durin g the periods when the tides of political activit y are hig h, and rather than be a struct ure wh ich te nds to protect us and to preven t this permanent damage , we will have a situatio n where tides will run hig h, where perma nent damage will result in ou r province. Mr.

Spea ker, I ma y have failed to choose the ki nd of words that I wo uld li k e to have fo und to express my ver y real co ncern in this matter but I hope that the people of Ma nito b a will re gard this matter with the kind of seriou s inte n t that I thin k it deserves. It is not an actio n that I thi nk will add to the developme n t of ou r provi nce , in fact I see in it a ver y real danger to the fu tu re developme n t of ou r Provi nce of Ma nito ba. Than k you. SO ME ME MBERS : Hear, Hear. (Applause) MR. SPEA KER : The Ho nou rable Leader of the Li beral Part y . MR . ASPER : Mr.

Spea ker, ever since this bill was distributed it 's give n me , and I thi nk most of the members of ou r ca ucus, a great deal of trouble , beca use we fi n d ou rselves in a position where a valid principle is put forward in a bill bu t put in a wa y whic h is fraught wit h danger and ma kes it diffic ult , creates a co nflict between two sets of principles. The first bei ng of co urse that all people in the province shou ld have the opportunit y and the righ t to participate fu lly in the political life of the provi nce.

The secon d being a more fu ndame ntal principle perhaps to the worki ng of parliamen tar y democrac y, that there remain a separation of powers in the gover ning process. By that I mea n, Mr.

Spea ker, as we all know in our province or ou r co untry the parliamen tary system is based on the principle that there will be an elected Legislat ure whic h is political and there will be a judicial branc h of gov ernme n t wh ich will be non-political, which will interpret the laws that the Legislat ure passes, and there will be an executive branch of gov ernme nt mai nly made up of the civil service which im plements the laws of the provi nce or of the -- (Interjection)-- Mr. Spea ker, I hear the Mi nister of Fi nance saying we 're back to the co ngressional system. Mr.

Spea ker, that is the basis - what I've just said is the basis of how this co untry has been gover ned and it 's the NDP Gover n me n t that doesn't seem to understand the separation and the chec k s and bala nce system that the Ca nadia n and British parliamentary system has inherentl y had built into it. And it's be ca use of the kind of comme nts he's just made that ma k e me more fearfu l of this ki n d of a bill , beca use he doesn't seem to eve n accept the idea that there is to be a separation of the civil service in political terms from the gover ning body. So, Mr.

Spea ker, perhaps the next bill will say, a bill to permit the judges of Ma nito b a to vo te , to campaign and to raise mo ney , be ca use that 's precisely what we're being asked to permit here •.. that wh ich was non-political to become political . And I co ncede, I co ncede, Mr. Spea ker, that I am troubled beca use there is a valid principle in the bill whic h is accepta ble , that no one shou ld be precluded from enter ing pu blic life .

Bu t perhaps that principle has to be compromised, perhaps that principle must be compromised to guarantee the co ntin ued separation and independence of the three mai n thrusts of gov ernme n t - the Legislat ure , the Judiciary and the Civil Service . Mr. Spea ker, eve n if we were to accept the co nflict of principles here and resolve it in favo u r of passage of the bill, eve n then the bill is fu ll of problems eve n in achievi n g its ow n objective . For example, Mr. Spea ker, asking, as the bill does, that an ybody from civil service

70 2 February 22, 1974 BILL No. 7 (MR. ASPER cont'd) •.• enters public life and is successful has to quit his job is tantamount to saying you can't do it, because we all lmow that no one except full ministry, and perhaps those members of government who are assigned to boards, no one can live on an MLA's salary without working besides his work in the House. And so we say to the civil service you will lose your job; even if we accept the principle that they should be able to come into public life but you've got to give up your job. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if we were to pass the bill then surely we could improve that aspect of it by simply saying - as enlightened industry is now starting to say - that in a big employer such as government we can readjust you, we can find another job which is non-sensitive politically and so that you will be able to maintain your employment, as honourable members of this House do in the private sector. So, Mr.

Speaker, if we were to compromise our principle - or rather not compromise our principle, !t hink a more appropri ate term is resolve the conflict of principles in favour of the bill - then we would certainly have a lot of curing of defect to do. That would be one of the areas. Mr. Speaker, the Act before us calls for permitting civil servants to speak and write on behalf of political people. Mr. Speaker, that is a dangerous provision. That is an enforceable provision as well. --(In terjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister for Public Works says it's not new.

I agree it's not new, nevertheless it is not a desirable provision. And if we were to accept the resolution of the two principles, which I'm not prepared yet to do, Mr. Speaker, we would want to see that elimination. Mr. Speaker, the inf ormation that the civil service acquires is basically sensitive. lt'·s acquired on the premise that it is a non-partisan, an in dependent, a neutral in the political process. Mr.

Speaker, if that information can be used for political writing, political speaking by the civil service then we're going to have three branches of the civil service: the Liberal, the Conservative and New Democrat. And, Mr. Speaker --oh I'm sorry, it's suggested to me that there may be some Social Credit. Mr. Speaker, the --(Interjection) --yes, it's been suggested that even the Group for Good Govern ment may infiltrate the civil service and form its own group. Mr.

Speaker, if you had a fragmented civil service which is undesirable then you would have reluctance to exchange information between departments ; you'd have a fear of who am I talking to, am I talking to one of us or am I talking to one of them, you would have suspicion and you'd have an erosion of the cohesion and the effectiveness of the civil service. But per haps one of the worst principles of the bill, Mr.

Speaker, one that is totally unacceptable to the most enlightened, is the suggestion that if we were to permit politicization or political in volvement by the civil service, we would permit the civil service people to be involved in political fund raising. Mr. Speaker, that is regressive; that is a throwback to a day that we hope doesn't exist any longer. --(Interjection)-- Yah, Mr. Speaker, my colleague suggested it's purely the legalization of what was Tammany Hall. Mr.

Speaker, a licence inspector who has the discretion goes out raising money for the New Democratic Party, and he has the dis cretion as to whether to grant the licence or not grant the licence. And he is going to be permitted to be a fund raiser for the New Democratic Party ? Or the Liberals or the Conser vatives. Mr. Speaker, that's at the lowest possible level.

Let's take the contract, let's take the buying division of government where people don't go through tender necess arily all the time and where once having gone through tender there become extras in contracts - and that's a nor mal thing it's not an evil. Normal contract says you'll build the road, these 50 miles, and you'll charge us "X" dollars, and there's an extra clause, an extra clause, and in the middle of the contract it's decided to widen the road or do it a different way or the weather changes and the re's a renegotiation. Mr.

Speaker, the contractor negotiating with the civil service could be in a position to be negotiating with a fund raiser for the political party in office or the fund raiser for the political party in opposition. And Mr. Speaker, with the greatest re spect, that tempts corruption. That puts the civil service in the position where they can be unsure in their own mind if they're on the take because that contractor can very well say to the civil servant, look I need the extras. The price is $30, 000 and by the way come by and see me on Saturday to pick up my annual donation to the party.

Because he's the fund raiser, because the Act says he can be the fund raiser --(Interjection)-- Well it permits him while he's on his leave of absence, Mr. Speaker. --(Interjec tion)-- Yes. To raise funds. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the framers of the law even if it were good law, this prin ciple in it must be removed. There's nothing left to say except it must be removed because

Februa r y 22, 19 74 703 BI LL No . 7 (MR. AS PER co nt'd) • any ince ntive to co rruption, to bribery, we' r e the last body that should be leg islatin g it . We have reference in the Speech from the Th rone that we're goi n g to enact laws at this session to deal with the co nflicts of inte rest by the civil service. Now we' r e enacti n g a speci fic opportu nity fo r co nflicts of inte rest.

Surely this isn't what the Speech from the Thron e inte nded; this is in diametric oppositio n to the whole principle of keepin g insulated our civil service from the threat that they may be placed in a politically partisan role whe r e they are co nfused as to whether or not they 're doi n g thei r job or they' r e really a stooge or a shill for somebody who 's bei n g bribed or paid off. Mr.

Speake r, I don't wa n t to see any civil serva n t in this prov ince in that positio n, of havi n g his name in the paper, of bei n g accused, of bei n g attacked as bei n g a political fu nd raiser and the n back in his job the week after. Mr. Speake r, that's only par t of it . If we' r e really serious about the bill -- and I ca n't quite say at this stage that I ca n resolve that co n flict -- if we're goi n g to do anythi n g like this though , Mr. Speake r, the n I urge the gove rnme n t to first insulate the Civil Service. By that I mea n, Mr.

Speake r, we do not wa n t the people who work for any gove rnme nt to be in a position whe re they are subjected to political blackmail , political pressure, the requi reme n t of doi n g political favou rs, and until we ca n insulate the Civil Service from that ki n d of thi ng, and it isn't presently insulated this way , not adeq uate ly, if we' r e goi n g to broaden the rights of the Civil Se rvice to become political the n it must first be insulated so that the gover nment of the day, whoever it may be , ca n't abuse that.

By that I mea n this: I think we have to look at how the Civil Service is now appointed - the Commission rather, so that the r e is a protectio n, a bette r protectio n tha n presently exists, that the gove rn me n t of the day ca n (

a) pack the Commission, and (

b) pack the Civil Service ; and (

c) build an army of 1 2, 000 political partisa n s who are bei n g paid by the public but who are spendi n g a co nsiderable portion of their time in political pursuits fo r the party in powe r. Mr. Speake r, we all know that if that ha ppe ns you would , in a matte r of a decade you would have a dictatorship of the party in power, because you would have , you would have a political - yes you would have a totalita ria n state if you wa nted to .

Because once you take the information granti ng aspect of public life , which is the Civil Servi ce , once you take the dis cret ionary aspec t of publi c life which is the lice nsing, the permits, the co ntract granti ng, once you take the whole thrust of gove rnme n t which represents perhaps 20, 30, 40 percen t of the gross provincial product - I'm not sure how you split mu nicipal, fede ral an d provi ncial - but I can tell you that gover nme nt itself represents 40 perce nt of huma n endeavou r in this cou ntry in gross national product terms.

Once you take that and unless we ca n insulate , un less we ca:n assure the rnbli c that the Civil Se rvice will be insulated from pressur e to become politica l the n one has to say hold off . There must be better guarantees fo r those who ente r the public service ; there must be better bette r gua rantees fo r the people of Manitoba that the public service wil l not be co nverted into a political army .

No w what I sta rted to say was I ca n foresee, unless we ca n improve this bill , un less we ca n improve the whole co ncept of the Civil Se rvice Commission and build in the kind of neutrality and insulat ion I spoke of so that a gove rnme nt of the day ca n't pack it , if we ca n't do that the n we foresee this kind of a situatio n : Deputy Mi niste r, Associate Deputy Mi niste r or Divisio n Head is loo king at te n people in his departmen t for advancement. Now , Mr. Speake r, he is a political ma n, he is a member of the party, he is a potential ca ndi date for the party in of fice - and bear in mi nd, Mr.

Speaker, I, in saying what I am sayin g make no accusatio n agai nst th is governme nt. I wa n t that clear. I'm speaki n g of any political party. I don't mea n to suggest that th is gove rnme nt is mo r e evil tha n any othe r gover nme nt. A ME MBER: They are. MR . AS PER: That may be , but th i s is not the form for that debate .

Because I coul d foresee any gove rnment, any political party -- (Interjection)-- Sure - which has the sole fu nctio n of stayin g in of fice, usi n g this bill, usi n g this tec hnique to insulate the gove rnme nt, rather the public from the truth and to operate in a ma nner which the public would neve r know whethe r governme n t was performin g well or not .

Now the kind of exampl e I started to give was this: the divisio n head , who is a membe r of the gover ning party , who proposes to be a ca ndidate , needs an organize r fo r the party in Wawa nesa or Mi nnedosa or whe reve r-- (Interjectio n)-- You su r e do . So he says, the re's a cha nce fo r adva nceme nt, we' re goi n g to be creati n g a special study group or a board or what have you , now Joneswill you take out a membership in the party so that while you' r e out in

704 February 22, 197 4 BILL No. 7 (MR. ASPER cont'd) ••• Wawanesa on the Milk Board or on the commission that we're setting up, we'd like you to do a little organizing for us. Mr. Speaker, there would be virtually no way that you could detect that kind of abuse, there would be no way that you could prevent that kind of abuse, prevention and detection being two different things, and, Mr. Speaker, there would be no way that a bill like this would not encourage that kind of abuse. Now, Jones says "no, Mr.

Speaker, I am a political, I am a traditional civil servant, I came to work not to be a politician; if I want to be a politician I'll go somewhere els e" . And so supervisor says, "W ell, Jones, advancement has just ended in your case. Do this little job for us and advance ment proceeds! ' That's the danger. Mr. Speaker, there's no suggestion in the bill that says there will be an appeal system, that the hassled civil servant who's being leaned on by the politicians who are civil servants has no protection against being conscripted into the political army.

So at the very least I ask the government to consider part of the insulation being an objective independent appeal by any civil servant who feels he is being unfairly treated or being deterred from advancement or having his career affected by his lack of, or his involvement in the political process. And the only way you can build that kind of an obj ective appeal certainly can't be to a government appointed Civil Service Commission.

It must be to the courts, it must be to some independent one of the last cornerstones of our society that isn't being politicized --(Interjection)-- Well the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources says, who appointed the courts? At least the courts have the virtue of being appointed for life and therefore --(lnterjection)- Well, I hear a suggestion that perhaps implies that the Minister would like to see the courts elected. And the Minister of Mines and Resources commented that that was a bad thing. Mr.

Speaker, I shudder to think of our institutions being congressionalized by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources in this way. The odious thought that we would adopt an Amer ican concept of electing our courts. • • MR. GREEN: ... on the point of privilege, I never said that I wanted the courts elected, I said that it was not a virtue that they are appointed for life. There 's a big distinction, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my dialogue or debate on political science with the Minister perhaps can be adjourned to another time.

I'll go on with the main thrust of this --(Interjection) -- Mr. Speaker, he suggests that I should not misrepresent him and believe me I won't mis represent because he's my constituent, I'll try to represent. Mr. Speaker, there may be ways out of the dilemmas that I foresee. I personally am very sensitive to the valid principle that the bill contains and yet I'm equally disturbed by the invalid principle.

There could be ways and I would ask the government to, before they force us to make a final conclusion on the bill, give some consideration to amendment, amendment which would make this apply only to the very least sensitive areas of the Civil Service, per haps by salary, perhaps by job category, perhaps experiment with it, perhaps step into it in a very small way first to find out whether it can be done. And I say this recognizing that the government has a majority in this House Mr. Speaker ; that unless we can persuade them to alter the bill that they're going to pass the bill.

It will make no difference how much opposition we put up, it will be passed by sheer number. And recognizing that, Mr. Speaker, I say let us try to find a way that either the government pulls it back and says, after all there's no rush, there's no election for three years or two years, or four years or what have you, that we have lots of time to consider this.

I believe we've raised valid concerns, concerns that if they have any validity the government can well afford to say, yes, we will reconsider that; yes, we will hoist the bill, we'll come back, we've got lots of time before the issue is germane in provincial politics. And, Mr. Speaker, we mig4t get better legislation. We might get a sol ution to the issue of sensitivity and neutralization. Mr.

Speaker, I can't conclude without saying that it disturbs me that the first act of this government after having received a mandate, in dealing with the Civil Service Act the first thing it thinks of is the politicization process. Mr. Speaker, there are higher authorities. If we're going to go to amendments to the Civil Service Act, Mr. Speaker, this is low on the priority list, this is not relevant for three or four years.

But as my colleague for Fort Rouge correctly observed in this House a few days ago, if we're going to play with the Civil Service Act, let's begin breaking down the barriers that exist for the 44 percent of the work force of

February 22, 19 74 705 BILL No. 7 (MR. ASPER co nt'd) ••. of this province that are the wome n . I subscribe to the view he ex pressed. That is Liberal policy, it is the policy of our caucus , because this Act , the first time we get a cha nce to ame n d the Civil Service Act does nothing to en h�nce the opportunities for upward adva nceme n t and enlargeme n t of involveme nt by wome n in the Civil Service. Mr. Speaker, unless the go vernment of the day is prepared to set the example that the private sector should follow, we have no - as I said the other night, he who asks equit y must have clea n ha nds.

We , or the y, gover nme nt, in saying to industry, we expect you to remove bar riers that prohibi t or deter adva nceme n t of wome n and we expect you to get rid of a whole series of thi ngs that prevent us from havi n g wome n judges, wome n hospital administrators, wome n in the ke y posts, for which the y're trained, the n we have to set the example.

We would have .saluted , we would have welcomed the first ame n dme nts to the Civil Service Bill bei n g those ame ndments which said, we will establish guidelines, we will establish -- (Interjection)-- Yes, the Honourable Mi nister of Public Work says, "Q uotas". I don't like quotas either . But , Mr. Speaker, if we had n't developed quotas , mi nority groups, women, ethn ic groups, if we hadn't broken doors down by first establishi n g quot as, which I find ugl y, we would not have an y progress. Mr.

Speaker, if that's what we're saying, that we have to establish quotas , five years ago I would have bee n idealistic enough to say, I don't believe in quotas. But , Mr. Speaker, I have watched the slow and no progress in certain areas of civil rights, this bei n g one, and the on ly time I've seen success, watchi n g this field for 15 years, is the toke n quota , because it's • • • I ca n remem ber, all of you opposite in this Chamber will know, there were years whe n there were quotas whe n no members in certain eth nic groups could get into certai n faculties in universit y . You remember.

And it was only whe n the quota system the first crack in the door, somebody said, we'll allow X percent. And the n, Mr. Speaker, because a quot a system began we were able to push back the quota to no quota , and that • s where we are toda y . -- (lnterjection)-- Well , Mr. Speaker, the Mi nister of Mi nes disagrees. He thi nks that suddenly perhaps, suddenly the Facult y of Medici n e and suddenly the Ma nitoba Bar Association, just out of the goodness of its heart, opened its doors. Well that's not true.

The y opened their -- (Interject io n)-- I would refer my ho nourable frie nd the Mi nister of Fi nance to the annals of the Blacksto n e Club that he would remember. Well , Mr. Speaker, take my word for it , I urge you that only by imposin g quotas you break down barriers. I know no other wa y . Now if the gover nme n t though , I don't suggest quot as, if the gover nme nt will come up with a better solutio n so that we ca n each year have a report to this House so that we ca n measure the progress in breaking down that barrier, I'll accept an y solutio n. Bu t I say, Mr.

Speaker, if we're goi n g to ame n d the Civil Service Act let's start with its greatest flaw , not this; it's greatest flaw is that there is nothi n g that encourages upward mobilit y of the wome n in the force, the ha ndicapped and more - I co nfine my remarks to what my Honourable Member for Fort Rouge had said ·_ that we could ame n d this Act to say, the Wome n's Bureau will each year file a report with the Legislature. It will show us what mobilities occur, it will show us what job classificatio n cha nges have occurred and the n we ca n debate and measure whether we're ma king progress on that.

Now that , Sir , would be progressive leg islatio n which would find no di fficult y from this side of the House , but I have to say because the gover nme n t has set this kind of priority, the politicizatio n as a priority over broadening the Civil Service Act to pro vide for the upward adva nceme n t in wipi n g out barriers faced by wome n, I have to questio n the priorities of the gover nme nt, I have to questio n the values , and I have to ask them please re thi n k the position on the bill be fore us. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Fi nance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.

C. (Mi nister of Fi nance) (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak but I would like first if I ma y to ask a questio n of the ho nourable member who just spoke. In view of the fact that debate on secon d readi n g is on principle, would the ho nourable member indicate for me for clarificatio n whether he and his party are vo ti n g in support or agai nst the principle of the bill? MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had said in my opening remarks that I cannot indicate that at this time , simply because of the trouble that I outli ned in resolvi n g those two principles.

I would have to hear more from the gover nme n t be fore I thi n k our caucus could .. . MR . CH ERNIAC K : Well , Mr. Speaker, I had the impression that the Honourable the Member for Fort Rouge had already indicated support but I guess if I'm wrong, or if I'm right

706 February 22, 19 74 BILL No. 7 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) .• .. then I would guess that there has to be a new caucus meeting, and if I'm wrong then I obviously misunderstood him Because, Mr. Speaker, the principle is very simple. And the .honourable member the Leader of the Liberal Party who still hasn't made a decision on principle, is now going to possibly try to dicker or bargain or in some way get some concessions to his point of view. --(Interjection)-- And he says that's what the Legislature is about, the debate is for that ?

I was suggesting a sort of a trading process, that he would trade and say, well if you make certain concessions then I will support you sort of like, I will vote if I get certain promises of some kind. Coming from a member who last was busy spitting all over the room at various objects I'm not sure that I would care too much to get involved in a discussion with him of the legislative or parliamentary process and therefore I think that it should be left to him to judge, and his caucus, to judge whether the principle's important. And the principle to me sort of boils down to a very simple thing.

Should a civil servant be barred from participating in political affairs under certain limitations without en dangering his job security. Seems to me that that's what this is about. And I can't say that I share other members great insistence that this is the most vital thing that we have to do, although I do feel that it is important that we do it. We have to remember that human beings have interests, motivations and would like to participate in a democracy. The Honourable the Leader of the Liberal Party used a statistic which surprised me. He said that government represents 40 percent of human endeavour.

I think he must have meant in impact on the economy, not in numbers of civil servants, but I do know that the civil servants make up a very large number of people in the province, a very large segment of the citizens of this province and there are certain restrictions on them.

I think that when the Minister of Labour introduced the bill and said that he doesn't want them to be second-class citizens that the Honourable Member for Brandon West must have understood that the Minister of Labour felt that because they could not participate in political affairs under certain circum stances that that made them second to those who do have that right. And only in that respect. I don't think the Member for Brandon West wanted to put words into the Minister's mouth suggesting that they were second-class in any other respect.

I don't know if I had occasion in the last four or five years to tell the House of my ex perience when I became a Minister of the Crown and when I received certain briefing material - well actually the draft of a speech that I was going to make, and I received it from a depart ment with which I was not too familiar.

That draft contained in it the ess entials of what a New Democratic Party member would want to say to such an extent that I was intrigued to find that the department which I had inherited from the Conservative Government was producing for me a document which had considerable political content; it was the draft to the Budget Speech, the first draft.

And when I expressed surprise I was answered by the statement that we are civil servants, we have our own political ideas but we know our jobs and we intend to do them as objectively and as capably as we can; and therefore although we may not agree with what we are putting on paper we are putting on paper what we believe is something that you agree with and since you're the speaker, you're the one who should have the information. And to this day I do not know the political leanings, if there are any who have political leanings4 in the people who work right in the Research Department of the Department of Finance.

Now there are some that I have certain ideas about, some I consider more Conservative than others, some more inclined to the New Democratic Party ? and some have told me straight out how they feel, and yet the calibre of the work they produce is even and it's without fear and without an attempt to curry favour because the only favour they can get is that which is a recognition of integrity and doing their· jobs well. --(Interjection)-- Now I'm being asked that question, why change it ?

And the answer I have to give is that I --(Interjection)-- Well I've been asked a question four times, I will have difficulty answering it if the question is continually being posed. So if you're through asking it, I'll try and answer it; but if you're not through asking it, I'll wait until you're through. --(Interjection)-- Mr. Speaker, Whose time is this ? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, please. We are abiding by the rules of the House, Rule 42 . I think when an honourable member is speaking, another honourable member should not interupt. I would ask the honourable members to allow the Minister to continue.

Certain questions have been asked and the Minister is attempting to answer them. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I was not present when the Minister of Labour

February 22, 1974 70 7 BILL No. 7 (MR. CHERN IACK co nt' d). introduce d th i s bill on seco nd reading, nor I have read his introductio n, so anyo n e who wa nts to know his reasoning will have it in Hansard. My ow n be lief is that a person who wishes to participate in political affa irs dur in g an electio n should have a right to do so an d should be guarantee d te nure in the eve n t that he comes back. That to me is the purpose of this bill , that's exactly the purpose of th i s bill.

Beca use who gave us a list here in the House of all the people who have come from Civi l Serv ice into elect ive off ice an d have served the people well. I th ink the Member forLa keside me ntio ned some. Somebo dy me ntioned Mitchell Shar p, Lester Pearso n, any number, who have served the people well . And it wo uld be a pity if there are people who work for th i s governmen t who ca n co ntribute their efforts on behalf of the people in elect ive off ice . and who fear to do so because they do not have the right to return.

And as I understand this bill , what it does is gu arantee to them that at the en d of the electio n, should they not be successful, the n they have a right , a right to come back an d work . Now the members on the opposite sid e are saying, well , of co urse if they do they're going to be in trou ble. Well of co urse they wo uld be in trouble if they resigned, ran for office an d didn't have the right to come back to dema nd their jobs.

What th is does is recog nize , firstly, the desire of some an d I wo uld th ink very little , beca use most people I've met in the civil service, especially the higher they rise in the ranks of the civi l service , most of them do not wish to participate politically. Most of them say, "I stay ou t of the pol itical aren a because I feel that my job as a civi l servan t overrides that ". Bu t the yo unger ones an d the ones in, as the Member, the Lea der of the Li beral Party , the one who spok e abou t less sensit ive areas they shouldn't have to fear not being rehired whe n the cam paign is over.

That's really to me the essence of the bill an d that isthe .princi ple on which I inte nd to vote. Whe n we come to discuss the deta ils I believe the Mi nister of Lab ou r in dicate d that there are matters that he expects will be discussed an d should be discussed . For example , there is a

section that deals with certain people who are excluded from th i s right , an d that should be discussed, because ho nou rable members mu st know that every person of ADM rank an d lower does have te nure under The-Civ il Serv ice Act . De puty Mi nisters do not have te nure an d I thi nkthe private secretaries to Mi nisters do not have te nure. Peo ple who work as secretaries have worked the i r way up to the highest category of secretarial staff, lose te nure whe n they become the secretaries to Mi nisters under the Act.

And the reason for that is obv iou s, that whoever drew the Act , the brain y people that the Member for Bra ndon West referred to, recognized that there were some categories that were too close to the politi cal en d or the political sid e of gover nme nt to have the right to remain there if there is a cha nge. And that's why a De puty Mi nister does not have any right in the world to co nti nu e to stay on as De puty Mi nister if there is a cha nge in gover nme nt. And I thi nk that ma kes goo d sense.

Bu t every bo d y below that does have a right unless he shows himself to be interested in political affa irs becau se under the presen t Act he is barred . He may not -- I thi nk it's Sect ion 44 which denies him the right, so that of co urse te nure ca n't apply. If he partici pates in political affa irs, the n that is in direct co ntradictio n, direct co ntradict ion of the presen t Act.

Therefore he "may" be fired -- he doesn't have to be , does he ? -- so he may be fired an d the n he has no right to appeal back. -- (Interject ion )-- Well , he has vi olate d the Act an d my colleag u e suggests he co uld be prosecute d, an d that may well be ; probably, probably he co uld be prosecute d . Bu t aside from that he doesn't have the right to come bac k an d say "I wa n t my job back", in a com pletely , let's assume , insensiti v e area. Bu t the fact is that what we are proposing is that he do have the right to come back to his job if he does deci d e to partici pate.

That to me is what is involve d . I wa n t to spend just a mome n t on -- it's unfortunate that the Lea der of the Li beral Party has left the Ch amber beca use I wa n t to deal with some of the thi ngs he said . He tal ked abo u t qu otas bei n g necessary in order to ma k e cha nge. And yo u know, Mr. Spea ker, I th ink that he is co nfu sin g certain princi ples that may have ta ken place an d certain actio n s before his ma tu rity, assum ing he's alread y at that stage.

He spoke abou t the Blac kston e Cl u b an d I thi nk members presen t ou ght to know that there was once a Blac ksto n e Cl u b in Wi nni peg , in Ma nitoba , ma d e up of lawyers, members of the bar, recogniz ing one of the great lea ders of legal juridica l thi nki ng in England, Lor d Blac kstone , an d the cl u b was named the Blac k ston e Cl ub. It was a social cl ubj it was a lu ncheo n cl ub, an d it became apparent after aw hile

70 8 February 22, 1974 BI LL No. 7 (MR . CHERN IACK cont 1d) ... th a t somehow or ot her Jewish lawyers were never invited to belong and join and participate in the Blac kstone Club , and actually there still exists today on pape r a Jessel Club , whic h at one time was made up of only Jew ish lawyers and then more and more non- Jewish lawyers joined it , and that was created to combat that Blac kstone Club that the member refers to.

Because it was a social club , it had no legal status , and as far as I know, and my participation in the legal profession predat e s that of the Leade r of the Liberal Party , I don't believe that there was ever any denial to Jews to practice law in Manito ba. I don't th ink there was ever any quota or restriction of any kind, openly stated or ot herwise. However , there was in the Medical College and it was exactly what the mem ber claims did not exist. He claims that the quota system was brough t in in order to ma k e it possible for Jews to go into the medical school , and that's not so.

As a matter of fact , when my sister applied to go to Medical College she had two strikes against her· because they had what they called nu merous clauses - wh ich means the quota system - against Jews and they had anot her one against women , and she was sort of luc ky to find that there was room for her in the women's quota alt houg h there was no roo m for her in the Jewish quota and she happened to get in under that one . And that was back in the early thirties and I remember the people involved , one of whem was a member of this Legislature , Mr.

Marcus Hyman , who was one of the great pe rsons who foug h t this openly. Anot her was Alistair St ewart, who wit h Marcus Hyman , foug h t it and at that time -- (Interjection)-- Yes, Mitc hell. Well there were ot hers of course.

And at that time what they did was to succeed in having the board of governors force the Medical College to drop this quota system whic h of course wasn't in writing but it so happened, and I remember having documents in my hand wh ich were presented to the Admissions Committee an d they were three sheets of paper, and one was Jews and one was women and one was everybody else, and they were told , now you pick so many from eac h of these three lists. In an y event it was dropped.

Now what he may be ta lking about a quota system, whic h I thin k is of interest, is that the human rights practitioners, especially in the United States , in New Yo rk, in Minnesota, have a di fferent kind of an approach.

They say that in an uns killed industry where the labour force doesn't have to have any particular qu alification , and you find a labour force whic h consists of, let us say 10 percent black, then it is .inconceivable that the proportion of black employees in a large industry should not approximate in some way their availabi li ty in the labour force, and they say to them "T h e mere fact that you have one percent black

whereas the labour force consists of 10 percent black, is presumed to us to be an indication of dis criminatio n. We now turn on you the onus of proving th at you do not discriminate".

That's a vast l y di fferent concept than the one presented by the Leader of the Liberal Party who says that we start wit h quotas -- (Interjection)-- Well , then , he doesn't understand the way it's described because it isn't the law that imposes a quota , it is the regulation of the Human Rig hts Commissions that say that if you don't have your average at the same level as the general average , then the onus shifts, that's all it says. However , if the Member for Fort Ro uge can speak for the intellectual attainment of his Leade r, then I will accept his word that that is what the Leader would th ink.

But the reason I wouldn't want to burden the Member for Fort Rouge wit h vouc hing for the intellectual attainment of his. Leader is the one relating to government , wh ich he discussed yesterday, which he discussed today, and what he said today again was that the executive of government is the Civil Ser vice and it is non-political. And he's now con fusing so many systems of government I can't even give an analogy. In Uilited States where the executive branch is not the same as that of the judicial or the congressional they are all - the executive branch - and they are all political .

I th ink when there's a change in of fice there's somet hing li k e 2, 000 or 2, 500 people out of work and a line-up where anot her 2, 500 are replaced, and if you will recall, the President, after the election I believe it was, the last election , demanded and received somet hing over 2, 000 resignations in Was hington, and I suppose is today sitting wit h them in his hip pocket wit h the power to use them. That is where the ent ire structure, the administration is political.

In our system here we know that the executive branch is headed by elected people, political people and I don't know how the Leader of the Liberal Party conceives that the executive branch is the civil service. The civil service serves the political arm of government and government - and I didn't know it was Mitc hell Sh arp that was entitled to credit for that quotation that the House Leader used yesterday but it's a very apt one ,

February 22, 1974 709 BILL NO. 7 (MR . CH ERNIACK cont'd) . . . and that is that "government governs and parli ament decides who shall gover n, " and that's so mething that, if I may, Mr. Speaker, refer to momentarily, that the Leader of the Liberal Party doesn't understand because he keeps taliing about himself as if he were a shareholder in one or another of the corporations of the --(Interjection)-- A director, oh he's a director, and his constituents are sharehol ders. It's a peculiar approach that he has which I think has to do with his wrong concept of government and government structure.

Let's get back to the principle of the bill more than he was willing to do in his broader range. He did say that if elected a civil servant shouldn 't have to give up his job as is required here, but we must be able to find a non-sensitive job for him.

Tha t mere statement indicates that I don't understand how he could say, "I'm not sure whether I'm going to vote for the prin ciple of this bill, " because he wants to go so far beyond it as not only to guarantee tenure after the election, but tenure after a successful election so that he conceives of an elected member of this House also continuing to work in what he calls a non- sensitive area so mewhere --(Inter jection)-- No, maybe Deputy Ministers do. It's a non-sensitive job.

Well, that's so mething that's worth discuss ing, but certainly how he can say he's not sure he approves of the principle of the bill yet and proposed that he be guaranteed that a successfully elected person be guaran teed a non- sensitive job is sort of beyond me. I do point out that he objects now to a public servant being allowed to speak or write on behalf of a candidate. He says that should not be allowed. He disagrees with that, because, he says -- well, I don't want to give his reasons, didn't quite understand them, so why should I try to account for them?

But the thought that he seemed to have and the thought that members opposite seem to have of a non-po litical civil servant is naive, so naive as one would wonder how it is that the Member for Por tage la Pr airie gets into his hands a missive sent to a civil servant through the civil service. To me it's obvious that that civil servant resented the way in which it was sent and felt he had a right to make a complaint and did indeed do so. And I think he did the right thing.

I can question that civil servant - and I assume it was one - who may :have leaked some draft document last year to one of the members opposite. A MEMBER: Fort Rouge. MR. CHE RNIACK: The Member for Fort Rouge ? Was he the one who came up with a- - yes, the previous Member for Fort Rouge, came up with -- well it may be that the current member would also receive something like that, and that we know happens because we know that there are people in the civil service who do have political interests and who do wish to do these things.

Some I think are recognized, some may even be commendable, and some I think are reprehensible. Nevertheless it's done. When the Member for Riel, was it, last year came in at midnight with some piece of paper that came out of the Department of Education and said "Look at this document that we have. " Do you remember all the excitement that took place at midnight last year ? Well he must have gotten it from a civil servant. Co ntinued on next page.

710 February 22, 19 74 BILL NO. 7 MR . SPEAK ER:. Th e Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . HARRY J. EN NS (L akeside) : I hate to interrupt the Honourable Minister of Finance but the record should show that that document, the document he refers to with respect to the Member for Riel, it did not come from anybody in the civil service. It was a document that was sent to the schools, to school divisions in his area.

I believe there ·were two or three school divisions, Charleswood School Division being one of them where a teacher which, if you want to extend the civil service to that length, then brought it to our attention. But the record should show this. MR . SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I think the record is probably clear. It has not been aided by the help of the Member . for Lakeside who I think may have confused it somewhat. I believe the Me mber for Riel said it came out of the Department.

I think later on it became apparent --(In terj ection)-- Well that wasn't true, because as I recall it - now I'v e got the floor -- as I recall it, what happened was that it became apparent later, like really later, after all the fuss and hullaballoo, that this was a document presented as a test for discussion by a pri vate -- by a teacher, not a member of the Department, who brought it into a committee for discussion and that some other teacher took his copy out and did something with it that made it fall into the hands of the Conservative Party, but that , in effect, I believe it was stated it came out of the department.

But let's not fool ourselves; these things happen. Civil servants are not political eunuchs. Civil servants do have ideas and do have aspirations to serve the public. As I understand this bill, that's what it's designed to do. Th e dangers that are referred to are dangers that always exist. Th e dangers that can be protected against should be suggested, and I hope will be. It amuses me somewhat that the Le ader of the Liberal Party says, "I have yet to see how I'm going to vote" depending on what is said on this side.

It amuses me because he of all people, or he amongst other people, know very well how this government is prepared to listen to members opposite and to consult with them as you accept recommendations from them indeed to the ex tent of making them the law. MR . G. JOHNSTON: That is democracy? MR . CHERNIACK: Pardon? Th at is democracy.

Of course , I think that the Le ader of the Liberal Party spat on democracy on one occasion, but maybe not, maybe his spittle went so far that it didn't go quite as far as democracy but he did spit on some other things which may be that, but the point that the Member for Portage just made about that' s democracy, I wish he would tell it to people on his side of the House, not necessa rily people in his party, because they seem to re sent that. The fund ra ising - and I'm quite prepared to debate that issue; I still have an open mind on it. I do want to clarify. I think the Member for Portage was wrong in his

interpretation of what is being proposed because I understoodhim to think that under the proposed amendment any person is permitted to take leave of absence, any civil servant may take leave of absence and go out raising funds, and I think it's very clear that only a person who is given leave of absence as a candidate is permitted to do that, and I suppose the reason is that a candidate does. --(Interjection)-- Pardon? Th at I didn't know. I won't admit too much my ignorance in case I say something I sh ouldn't that I know something --( Interjection)-- that he can't.

But it's limited to that and if that's a danger, all right, let's discuss that in committee. Although for the Leader of the Liberal Party to figure out already the danger that exists of a man who has power using it to collect money, is one that all of us have been aware of all our adult life , that dangers like that exist, and that would be a crime under any circumstance. This does not legalize that kind of a person any more than it legalizes a Cabinet Minister to ask for funds during an election campaign, and this is limited to that only. But I won't debate it because, as I say, I'v e an open mind on it.

Maybe that shouldn't be in there; I don't think its crucial; but you know, the suggestions that have been coming are the ones that suggest that the civil service is not of a calibre that we all say it is. Each one of us says that the civil service is of a high calibre and I believe it.

I wish those who don't believe it wouldn't say it, because there are those who suggest that the civil service contains so many people who may be so nefar ious that they will do all these things that are being described, all these things about being sub ject to pressure and not resisting. all these things about knuckling under to pressure from above, all that I think undermines and suggests a less competent and people with lesser integrity.

February 2 , 1974 711 BILL NO. 7 (MR . CHE RNIACK cont'd) .... I don't share that. I believe that the civil service, which does consist of top people at every level in this province, is not subject to that kind of tre at ment, and if they are, if there are any such individuals who are subject to that kind of pre ssure maybe they really oughtn't to be in the civil service. Maybe that is one way that they can recognize that they ought to get out.

But I want it to be known that there are people that I have met in the civil service who have openly informed me that they are in disagreement with the New Democratic Party and who are still civil servants doing their job and doing them well, and are recognized and honoured for that fact. And I would think that that's the way it will continue --(lnterjec tion)-- Well, the member says there' s nothing wrong with that and yet he's the one who' s so suspicious that they're afraid to be found out. They're not afraid to be found out.

They have this po litical conviction but they also have integrity and competence in their jobs. Tha t's much more important and that's to be reco gnized. So, Mr. Speaker, whether or not the Liberal Party or the Liberal caucus gets around to making a decision on the principle of this bill -- and I don't know if they will; right now I find that only tw<r-fifths of them are pre sent to hear this part of the debate - but when they do make up their minds, I think it will not be too important because I believe that this bill will go to Committee.

I think it will receive support in pr inciple from this Legislature, arrl when it gets into committee I think that would be the best time to discuss the questions, the detailed questions of the sections. I think it was the Member for Swan River, and if it wasn't he'll corr ect me, who said that the civil service doesn't want it. The impressi on he has is the civil service doesn't want the right. I am under the impres sion that they actually voted and that the government was informed that they do want it. Now that doesn't mean all of them do but I guess the majority of whatever group .•. Is that not so ?

Did they ... ? Oh, well other members pre sent don't confirm what I say so I may be wrong. My inpressi on was that the MGEA at one stage made the public statement that they were in favour of the right to vote. --(Interjection)-- All right, then I corrected. I'm glad I ra ised it. But I po int out to you that when this goes into committee, that will be the time for the MGEA and civil servants to come and say what their objections are, arrl that will be the time when others will express their points of view, and that will be the time when we deal with the safeguards that members fear.

And I think that is the right place rather than to cast doubt in a blanket way on the motives of government or otherwise of individual members of the civil service. I don't think it really helps very much to lower debate on the question of civil service. The very Leader of the Liberal Party who said that he did not want to get involved in naming names - he said that today - yesterday did not hesitate to throw a whole department, especially a small department, into some sort of disrepute by making insinuations which -- Member for Fort Rouge ? -- (Interjection)-- Maybe what?

And now the Member for Fort Rouge suggests that maybe -- Who does deserve it? The Department. So now the Member for Fort Rouge apparently is suggesting to us that that whole department should go into some doubt or disrepute because the accusation was made by the Leader of the Liberal Party that one and I think maybe two were doing something that may have be en improper. Bu t in a blanket way and appar ently supported by the Member for Fort Rouge, and I hope he can correct me because I don't put him in the same category as his Leader. --(Interjection)-- Pardon? And he will correct me.

I'm glad he will because I believe what his Leader did yesterday in . . . --(Interj ection)-- Well I don't know, we'll find out. I believe his Leader yesterday, in asking certain questions) certain very pointed questions of the Mi nister reportin g for Ma nitoba Housing and Renewal Corpora tion, put into doubt every individual employee in that department. By the way he asked the questions, and I think that that is damaging. I don't think that that helps the civil service at all. If there is a pers on who can be accused and there is enough basis on which to make that accusation by naming him, he should be named.

And if there isn't, then the Minister should be told privately; this is the accusation, this is the allegation. Do you want to check it out? Now my friend opposi te says something about the taxpayers of Manitoba. MR SP EAKER: The Honourable Mi nister has four minutes. MR. CHERNIACK: You know, I'm again having a pro blem under standing the member

712 February 22, 1974 BILL NO. 7 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) . and this is not the first time. I can't respond because I don't understand the question he's asking. So I feel, Mr. Spe aker, that this debate will continue, that eventually this bill will be sent to committee. I would hop e that all those who expressed strong op inions will make sure that they will be pres ent to discuss the specif ics of the bill providing the principle is one that they can accept. Well., now, I thank the Honourable Member for St.

Vital who brought to me Hansard, page 396, the introduction of Bill No. 7 by the Minister of Labour and I quote page 396 for the benefit of all those who didn't understand what he said. "Now my honourable friend from Swan River asks me if the Government civil service had asked for this right. Well, I must say to my honourable friend that by a resolution at one of the conventions of the· Manitoba Gover nment Employees As sociation , a re solution was pre sented to that convention in Dece mber of 1972 and the re solution was passed, Mr. Speake r. " Pa ssed, Mr. Speaker.

It went on to say: "True, not by a great majority. The vote was 98 to 91 with 37 abstentions. " But app ar ently I was correct. It did pass and I thank the honourable member for giving me that inform ation and giving the Member for Swan River the information, be cause the Member for Swan River would not want to go around misquoting people. I know that. I have enough re spect for him that he would like to be helped to know the facts. Thank you, Mr. Spea ker, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge state his point of order ? MR. AXW ORTHY: Yes, Mr.

Sp eaker, I would like to correct the statements made by the Minister at the beginning of his speech. The point of order is that he indicatd that in this House I had stated ap proval for the bill. That is not correct. Mr. Speaker , and I would refer him to the Hansard of February 15th in which I stated that while we ap proved of the objectives of the bill , we had serious reservations because of the contradictions and anomalies and therefore we would like to res erve our approval to hear debate and to the discus.sion in Law Amendments Committee to see if those were corrected. Mr. Speaker , I also have •.• MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. Order , please. The honourable member does not have a point of order , it is a matter of exp lanation. I believe he has made his point in that regard. A second explana tion pos sibly. Would the honourable member exp lain his point of order if he has one. MR. AXWO RTHY: It may be, Mr. Speaker , but the Minister said that, or accused me of saying that I held the Foundation, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpor ation, in dis repute because of the actions of a few individuals. I hold it purely in disrepute because of its poor pe rformance in the field of housing. MR.

SPEAKER: Order. The Hon ourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: I have a point of privilege. I never even used the word "foundation". I talked about the people who are emp loyed in that dep artment as having been put in disrepute as individuals. And that is -- and not by the Member for Fort Rouge but by the Leader of the Liberal Party, and I thought with today' s app arent concurrence of the Member for Fort Rouge. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR� EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River , that debate be adjourned.

MOTION p resented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Second Re ading Government Bills. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Bill No. 9 MR. USKIW: Mr. Spea ker, would you have that matter stand ? BILL NO, 18 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 18, the Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. BURTNIAK pres ented Bill No. 18 ,

an Act to amend the Highways Department Act, for second reading. MOTI ON presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, first of all I must apologiz e for the shape of my voice today. I've got a bad cold. This is a rather simp le matter. It' s just a matter of designating another type of road dealing with what we like to call under this bill an industrial road. As you know, Mr. Sp eaker, up until now we have two typ es of roads, one is the PRs in the prov ince and the others are

February 22, 1974 713 BILL NO . 18 (MR . BURT NIAK co nt'd) ...• PT Hs, and this idea of an industrial road would aut horize the Lie ute nant-Go vernor-i l:r-Co unci l to designate a partic ular road. We 're talk i n g specifica ll y I think about northern Mani t oba . The ob jec tive of this legislatio n, Mr.

Spea ker , is that along with co mpa nio n amendments relating to di m ensio n s of ve hicles that may be operated under such highways, and th e weig hts tha t may be carried thereo n, is to permit larger trucks to carry such things as timber, pulpwood and minerals reduci n g hopefull y , significa ntly th e traffic transportatio n costs. The Act presently provides for the issuance of specia l on e-time permits to au thorize the moving of an ov erweig ht or oversize ve hic le. We fee l tha t the use of such permits in a day to day operatio n is really not practical .

No w as I said thi s will gi v e th e Lie utenant-Go vernor-in-Co uncil an opportuni ty to designate ei ther certai n roads or certai n portio n of roads whic h will permit peopl e , truckers using these roads for hauling different materials as far as weig hts, heig hts and load limits are co ncerned , and of co urse these can be taken off at a later dat e whe never it is deemed feasibl e to do so. I thin k tha t that's about al l I ca n say on this bi ll; I think it s pret ty cu t and dried; it ' s not that , I do n't think it 's tha t co ntroversial. MR . SP EAK ER: The Honourab le Member for Sw an Ri ver. MR .

JAMES H. BILTON (S wan River ) : Mr. Spea ker, I move , seconded by th e Honour able Mem ber for Roc k La k e th a t debat e be adjou rned. MOT ION prese nted and carried. BILL NO . 19 MR . SPE A KER: Bi ll No . 19. The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. MR . USKI W presented Bil l No . 19 ,

an Act to amend The Crop Insurance Act, for seco n d reading. MOT ION presented . MR . SPEA K ER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture . MR . USKIW: Mr . Speaker , there are two smal l amendme nts in this bi ll dealing with two areas. One in par tic ular has bee n a prob lem to th e Crop Insurance Corporatio n for some time in tha t every time they wanted to add a new crop to the list of crops that co ul d be insured that they were req uired to submit a recommendatio n:Vr a change in th e Act.

The in tent here is to amend th e ac t to al low for additio nal crop s to be added from time to ti me by regulatio n as opposed to by amendmen t of the Act itself, That is reall y th e most significa nt amendment in this bi ll. The second one has to do with changing the way in whic h we handle the appea ls, the crop insurance appeal trib unals. The present system under th e existing legislatio n, the trib unal is respo nsib le to the Crop Insurance Corporatio n for its fu nding and orga niza tio n, and we fee l tha t there co uld be a conf lict of interests , Mr.

Sp e aker , in havin g peopl e appea l to a trib unal who is responsible to the corporatio n agai nst whic h an appea l is launc hed . So the change here provides for th e De partment of Agric ult ure to be responsible for th e appea l tribunal and to fu nd tha t organiza tio n so tha t there would be no possibi lity of a conf lict of interest on any appea l to the Croo Insurance Corporatio n's ru lings. Those are essentia lly the two main changes and I recomm end them to th e House, Mr. Spea ker. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourab le Member for Roc k La ke. MR . EIN ARSON : Mr.

Sp ea ker, I beg to move , seco nded by the Honourable Me mber for La Verendrye, that debat e be adjou rned . MOTIO N presented and carried, MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable House Leader . MR . GREEN : Mr. Sp ea ker, it 's seve n minutes to go to the adjournmen t hour; I think it would be preferabl e if we in troduce the new Estimates that are co ming to the House this afternoo n at 2:30, MR . SP EAK ER: Can we move in to co mmittee? -- (Interjec tion )-- .. . and the n we ca n adjou rn. MR . GREEN: Wo uld yo u prefer, Mr . Spea ker, from your poin t of vie w, if we move in to co mmittee , yes , fi ne. I move , Mr .

Spea ker , seconded by the Ho nourab le the Minister of Agric ulture , tha t Mr. Speaker do now leave th e Chair and the House resolve it self in to a Co mmittee to co nsider

714 February 2 , 1974 BILL NO. 19 (MR. GREEN cont'd) •••• of the Supp ly to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAK ER· pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House re solved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. SUPPLY- PUBLIC WORKS MR. CH AIRMAN: Did I hear someone say that it was 12:30 ? I am leaving the Chair to return at 2: 30 this afternoon .

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e22b487ebe2c36ef23b35db06aae7b6d7aad6385

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