VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 22, 1980 NO. 47

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1709 so - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAICER (SiiiiiiS) : Order, please! I wo .uld like to, on behalf of all bon. members, welcome toclay to the galleries forty-two students from Beoth1.1k Collegiate in Baie Verte; f~ the district of Baie Verte - lilhite Say , -. accc~~~p-.ted by their teachers , Mr. Lloyd Greenham and Mrs. Glenni• Neally. We trust that they am enjoying their visit. SOME BON. MEMBEFS: Hear, hear. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEADR: The hon. the IDBIIIber for Grand Sank. MR. L. THOMS : Mr.

Speaker, I hav. a question I would like to .dimct to the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. ottenheiiiiBr) and it mlates to the statUient which the Minister of Justice made in the House of Assembly yesterday afternoon. I haw stated on sev.ral occasions in this House that I felt that the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary was second to none of any constabulary that I know.

My question to the minister is, I was w011derinq if the minister would, and this is soaethinq that actually I did DOt thiJlk about u :I wu qoinq throagh the statement yestazday aftemo011, but I was -derinq if the lllinister would indicae. to this Bouse why the minister, why the gowJ:n~~~eDt felt that it was necessary to go outside the t~gyal Newfoundland Constabulary and appoint an ex-RCa' officer as ·Deputy Chief of the Rayal Newfoundland Constabulary? MR. SPEADR: The hon. the Minister of Juatiee. MR. G. O'l"'fEMBE:IMER: Mr.

Speaker, in answer ~.o ue han. gentleman's qU~estions about the ~int:Mut of the qentlsman, obviously, the hon. 111811ber will recall that he couqratulatad us yesterday on the appointment. I want to point out that the appointment was made by - MR. L. THOMS : By you. ~ MR. SPEADR: Order, please! 4467 '-· --- -- ~-- ._.,... . __ , __ ·---- --.__ ---- ....,...__ ---- -·-- -- --·-----·- __ ._,..._. ___ . ·-,...,...--·--:-----. _,_

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1709 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: - the Lieutenant Govemor in Council, obviously upon the rec0111111endation of the Minister of Justice and my re~ndation based upon a reco~~~~~endation of the Chief of Police, SD - 2 Now, it was our collective view, not lllllkinq any reference to the hiqh qualifications of other officers in the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary , that this particular gentleman had the appropriate experience, appropriate tr&ininq for the WODt that needs to be done now in the dewlopment of the Constabulary.

His experience is in adadnistration, traininq proqr-s, personnel and it is in these areas that expertise is necessary at this particular time. I would point out that obviously it is the general policy and the usual procedure ta appoint from within the ranks but in this particular post, at this particular time, it was felt that this Newfoundlander, who has worked for the past year as Director of Elllllrgency Measures in the Province ,and who worked .)fith the RCMP for twenty-odd years, includinq ~e last years in Newfoundland, that he had the appropriate experience to fulfill 4468 ----- ·---- ·--- -·-· -- -----

M.ly 22, 1980 Tape No.1110 EL - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: the task necessarz at this part- icular time and we felt that having that experience and hav~ng those qualifications .to debar him because he served with distinction in the RCMP for a number of years would be most illoqical and improper. MR. L • THOMS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simns): A supplementary, the hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: M.r.S:peaker, Mr.

M.:inister, are you sayinq then that there was ·no one within the ranks of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary as qualified or more qualified than the person that you did appoint as Deputy Chief? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. i:.he Minister of Justice.,; MR. O'l"rENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, no I did not say that there was nobody in the Royal Newfoundland COnstabulary as qualified, more qualified , less qualified as this particular gentleman.

I said that for the specific needs of the Q:onstahulary at this time,in a period of a certain amount of reorqanization and devel~t and wear, their need for new eiiiPhasis in forms of traininfJ~ecruitment procedures, personell etc. , that with the particular needs of the Constabulary at this time in those specific areaa, that this gentleman appeared to be eminently and well qualified and it was for that reason that he was appointed. MR. L. THOMS: A final supplenmatry, Mr .Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplemen•ary, the hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. I.. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, it appears to me that the .WU.Ster is indeed sayinq that there was no one qualified within the Royal NewfoliDdland Constabulary to fill this position. AN BON. MEMBER: Hear, bear. MR. THOMS: And that he is just tryinq to, wel.l, I guess, weasel, is not the word, around having c;~utside the Constabulary to qet the new Deputy Chief. 4469 ----- - ----------~-------- ·---- ·--. --- '-

May 22, 1980 Tape No •. 1710 EL - 2 MR. SPEAXER (Simms) : O~er, please! The hon. !lle!ber has a suppleiiii!Jltiuy? Ma. J:.. TH<lM!:i: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary queli!tion is this. r am sun the m:Uti.ster .realizes that this has certa1Dly hrouqht on a V. .XY stroaq feeling of depression and protest from our present; forQe here in St. Jotm 's in coqec:tion with this m&tter, and I: waa wonciednq if the minister colll.d tel.l a wb&t:he:r or net he is awu.:t that there i.a .- 4470 ---- -----·---·- -·--·-

. AJ . :-lay 22, 1980 Tape ~lo. 1711 i:Hl - l ~R. L. THOHS : --- - I do not know of a strong possibility but a liklihood of a po!ice walkout in this city to protest the appointment by ·the minister? And if so, whether or not the minister has any contingency plans for the policing of this city in the event of such a happening? MR. SP~A~~R (Simms): The hen. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to jusc comment briefly on the hen. gentleman's

preamble or

interpretation of my answer. I certainly did not state, insinuate or leave open to reasonable

interpretation any conclusion that there would be nobody in the force equally as qualified as this gentleman or that gentleman. As a matter of fact,a couple of months ago when we appointed the Chief of Police, the man in charge 1 thcn obviously we appointed somebody from the ranks and we appointed in a certain are~, we appointed Assistant Chief Randell.

So all I did say ·is that for this specific job at this specific time this Newfoundlander, having served in the National Police Force of Newfoundland and other places and with his experience, is, in our opinion, qualified and the appro- priate person to do the job. And with respect to the operative part of the hon. gentleman's question with respect to 4141 anticipate or something to that effect a police walkout? My immediate answer to that is that I find it almost beyond logic or belief or consistency that an organization J whose duty it is to enforce the law would act collectively in an illegal manner.

Because any such thing is out of the question. Well, it is obviously hypothetical. I would find that quite unacceptable to think that a group of men, an organization whose duty it is to enforce the la~ 4471

:-lay 22, 1980 Tape !>lo. 1711 :m - 2 ~!? •. G. OT '!'ENFiEI ~I~R: lirould co .llectively break the law. u. would be quite unacceptable. .And, obviously, the .citizen -s of St. John's have the riqht t.o expa~t the same continuity and security and assuredness of law and order and of law ~nforcemant and of police protection as do the citizens of Corner Brook, Labrador, Grand Falls, Burin, al.l over the Province.

They have the Sallie riqht to expect the s!lme level and continuity of law enforcement and certainly it is our responsibility as a departm -ent and as a qovernment to do everythinq reasonable and everythinq possible to assure the citizens of St. John's that they wi -ll continue to receive the security and protection to which they a~e entitled,as well as the people throughout the Province are entitled. SOME liON. M.EMBERS: Hear, hear! xa. t.. TBOMSa A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): '1'be bOD. tbe member for Bonavista North. 4~72 ------·- ----

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1712 NM - 1 MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also have a question for the Minister of Justice. As I understand from what ~e just said that you were looking for somebody ·with particular skills in certain areas, personnel, recruiting, training, in those areas. Was that job description set up as a job description and were interviews conducted amongst all the existing people? Or was it a situation in which somebody ~ew that this particular individual was available and,therefore, no further looking was done once they knew of this partic:W.ar iDdivi4ual.? MR. SPEAKER: The hen.

Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, knowing what the position was, and the kinds of qualifications and experience which were necessary, the files, if you wish, the files of all of the officers and other people were examined by the Chief and by o~~ers and upon the recommendation of the Chief,the Lieutenant-Governor in Council decided to appoint this person. SOMB BON. MEMBEllS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: That was only the first question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hen. member for Bonavista North.

I indicated a final supplementary, in fact,to the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms} but, in fact, your question was another supplementary. I will allow you one final supJ?l~tary. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I did not in traduce it as a. supplamentary, I introduced it as a new question. MR. SPEAKER: for Bouaviata Korth. MR. STIRLING: A final supplementary, the hon. member Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a question dealing again with the same subject, are we now to understand - it seems as if we have now set 4473 --- ------ '•

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1712 NM .. 2 MR. STIRLING: up another confrontation in a very · sensitive area. Aa I recall it just a number of months ago the minister would .. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inauc!i.bla) finish the queation. ... . . MR. STIRLING: The minister is asking his colleagues if they will be quiet so he can hear the question.

There was a very sensitive issue that the minister handled very well and ~~at the new Chief that he appointed had the support of the Brotherhood, Did he take into consideration, when he decided to appoint from outside the force, did he take into consideration the confusion and the disappointment that would be created with all ranks below that of Chief if he were to take ~;is particular action? MR. S.I?EAI<ER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. O'l"l'ENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to confrontation, certainly it is not, I think most hon. members will agree to that, it is not my modus operandi to seek confrontation, nor is it my way of operation to do anything to avoid it, to surrender where I feel important principles .. MR. STIRLING 1 MR. O'l"l'ENHEIMER: (Inaudible). If the hon. gentleman will now please .. if the hon. gentleman will keep quiet. This is an important issue and a ·-·- -- serious issue and I intend to deal with it seriously. But I cannot deal with it . 4474

May 22,1980 Tape No. 1713 AH-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: seriously if the hon. gentleman is going to interject. Now ,I have not interrupted hon . members when they have asked the questions. It is an important issue and it is important that what be said be said clearly and clearly unders~ood. People may agree or disagree with it but at least it is important that it be clearly understood. And then the hon. gentleman asked, did we take into consideration any number of things. My answer to that is, · we took into consideration all reasonable considerations.

This is not a matter,which hon. members I presume are aware of,which comes under the Collective Agreement and,indeed 1 if any party thought it did then there would be a grievance procedure and if any party thinks it is there obviously is a grievance procedure. But,in our opinion, it is not a matter of the Collective Agre~~ent. We are certainly not seeking confrontation. We are seeking to be reasonable but we do not - it is the responsibility and the obligation of government to make these senior appointments of chief and the two assistant chiefs.

That is the government's responsibility and ~he govern:nent' s obligation and we do not intend to surrender that responsibility or that obligation. SOME !iON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Terra Nova. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A new question. The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: ¥r ~ Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of La.bour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) • A couple of days ago I directed to the minister some well worded a.~d some well pointed questions re. : ·the Canada Statistics Report, re. the labour force for the month of A~il and in answering the question the minister blew his spleen and venom at Canada Statistics and in ooe. particular i1111tance, descr~ them as being the Liberal statistics. Now, Mr. speaker, in view of the many connotations that can be ascribed to that particular description 1 and in view of the negative reflections and the negative 4475 -- ---------

May 22,1980 Tape No. l7l3 AH-2 MR. LUSH~ attitudes that that can =eate with respect to that agency and more illlportantly with respect to its workers, the E'ederal Public Service of Canada, I am wondering whether the minister can state to the Bouse just pr .eci~ly in what context be used that word 'Liberal?' KL G. FLXGB!l' .: MR. SPI'ilAKEa ( Sin!lns) : ~- --- MR..PINN: lie does aat: kDOW. The hon. the Minister of I.abou:C and l'fr.

Speaker, I answered the question the hotr. member asked yesterday cmd indeed debated , it 011 the Lllta .AGw Of last Thursday. '1'he hon. ~ asked me for a breakdown of jo))s in the Province, he asked me for a hr .eakdown of jobs in the Province by area. Tbe s~tistics canada st;at;istics had come out the day prior, they bad. iniUcated that for the mPnt:h of Aprll last year versus the month of April this year over the Province there was a 6000 job increase or there was 6000 IIIOre jobs and broken dOWl;l over u azea. 4476 ---- ---·- - - . ---- --- -- ,.,.

May 22, 19!30 Tape 1714 EC - l MR. J. ODIN: The hon. member apparently wanted - to defend or do somethin9 with those statistics, and broken down over the anaa, the Avalon Peninsula, the Central area, the Burin P~ula, the West Cout and Labrador, it added up to 8,000. So :r said there were obvious errors in the statiatica and that :r was not goin9 to defend erron in Statistics Canada statistics, and :r still maintain that situation. MR. '1'. LUSH: MR. SPEAICER (S~) : for Terra llova. Mr. Speaker, a suppl-ntary. A auppl~tarv, the hon. the IIISIIIber MR. T. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, the minister did not CODa to grips wi.th the quastion at all. SpecificallY, :r asked the minister in what contaxt he used the word 'Liberal statistics' - what wu his specific meaninq, Mr. Speaker? And :r will ask the minister to give the House again precisely. what he meant by that partic:ular description, 'Liberal statistics '? MR. SPEAICER: Mmpowex:. MR. J. Dtlilh The hen. the Minister of Labour and Mr.

Speaker, 'liberal' is as-cribed in u.y dictionary &Dei the hen. -.bar can interpret that whichever -y he -ta to. 'l'he fact of the -tter is that :r aa not here in this House to defllllli Statistics caada. '1'hey are capable, :r would hope, of defeJldinq ~ves. MR. '1'. LCSHz MR. SPEU:Blts A suppl-tary, Mr. Speaker. A fi.DU SUiiPl.-artary 1 the hall. the 111811ber for 'l'llrra Nova followed by the tum. the IIMtllber for lfiDdaor - Buchana. MR. '1'. LllSB: A further question, Mr.

Speaker. :tn vi- of what the lllini.llter said reqardinq the statistics, is the minister sayinq that thea• statistics re the labour force for Newtoundl&Jld are c:oapletely i.J:relevant, that they se~ DO puxpo_, that they are not accurate in any way? MR.. SPEADRt 'l'he bon. the Minister of Laboar and Mupower. 4477

May 22, 1980 Tape 1714 EC- 2 MR. J. DINH 1 No, Hr. Speaker, the minister did not say that and the hon. member is incapable of puttinc;r SOlE worda into his own mouth. He cert:Unl.y is not capable of puttinq words .into DU.n.. The fact of the matter ia, yu, thare are 801111 uaea that one can make of Statistics canada. You coq_~are 110nth to month, from year to year and so on and do what you want with them. 'lhe fact of the -tter is that there are obvious errors in theae statistics. '!'hey caDDOt b~ ut.ili&ed u 100 per cent factual infoz;mation.

The hon. liiUiber'a attitude last -ek was that they apparently -:re 100 per cent accurate. MR. T. LUSH: KR. J. Dllllh not. MR. T. LUSH 1 KR, J. DINN: I: aillpl.y aaud queationa. :I wu indicatinq to lU.a that they -re :I s.tq,ly asked qgastiona. And :I outlined to him. where they -re not in one instance with rupect to a breakdown of the statistics o~ the Province in different reqiona and indicated to hia that whilst they -re u.eful for COIIII&riaon pa:rpoae., they were not so.ethitlq that ve ·would u.e on a day to day buia to plan activitiea. KR. SPEUEJI. , (S~lz 'l'be hon. the Leader of the Opposition. KR.: o.

JAMIESC111z To the Miniater of Labour and M.mpower (Mr. J. Dinn) vi.th reqard to atatiatica and the labour force qenera.lly, 1Rf recollectign is that in the Haase at •~ ataqe lut yaAZ, there wu a reference IUde - and :I vi.ll not, to use hia u:preaaion, pa.t words in the bon. lliniater's .onth - but aa.body said. that the:re wu a need to re-dafi.na refereDA:ea to what constituted. UDa~Plo:r-t. 'DI.e f~ Miniater of !'iehe:r:iu fedaral.ly, Mr.

Jia McGrath, and a nUIIber of oth~UB, u- · said froa t1.a to ti-. that, in fact, the fiCJUr&• CJrCIUl.J' anderatate the Dl8lber of people who are actually unaaployed, on the ~unde that many haft. qi.'Nil up reqiete:r:inq, ud :I ea sure t!le llini.ater ~ ex&etly what :I .. qettinq at. Does he subscribe to this idea that,in fact, far froa beinq a sort of undllr-eatimation of actual jcC. created, th&t :indeed. · 4478 •. -·-·- -- ·---- ------:- ·-- -;-··--- .. ----- ----- -....... _ .... ----

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1715 EL - l MR. D. JAMIESON: there may very well be a very much lliqher level of unemployment in the Province than Statistics CanadA figures show. MR. SPEAKER (SilllllS) : The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would subscribe to that sort of a theory, that there are more unemployed people than Statistics"Canada recoqnizes and that is why it is very difficult to use them. I am not sure what the UAemployment rate is in Newfoundland. Statistics Canada say it is fifteen per cant.

OUr participation rate, and I am not sure if we had a hundred thousand more jobs available in Newfoundland tomorrow, whether we would haYe the same partiCipation rate as they do in other provinces,like Ontario,because I do believe that here in this Province familie~ and women in families, are more inclined to be in the home atmosphere. I still believe that socially that is the way the women in Newfoundland want to operate, many of them. so, I am net sure what the actual unemployment rate is, nor do t have the capability within my department for gathering accurate s1:atistics.

So, aa I say, Statistics Canada figures you have to use as just a comparison only of from one year to another but there are inaccuracies in them and we can use ·neither the unemployment rate of 15.7 as it was last month nor the employment rate as being accurate. we just sillply cannot - the month before - I am sure there was not as much a difference in the month before statistics as there waa- iD. ':be .MaJrc:D st&ti8tics which indicated that - had created somthing like thirteen thousand jobs • That is March 1979 versus March '80. Wben - got to April, April '79 to April ' 80, i~ indicated 6,000 jobs.

I a111 quite sure there was not quite that difference but there is no wq of prov;4.!!-; !~ and certainly I - not even thinking about, at this point in tim, reqlllllsting of Treasury Board to allow Dl8 1110re st.lff for collecting sucb. information. 4479

May 22, 1980 MR. D. JAMIESON: Mit. SPEAKER (Simms) : of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: Tape No. 1715 EL - 2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Leader Just a follow-up to that. The difficulty that Stats Canada has stated on many occasions is that .both in co-operation with the proVinces and other agencies,that they themselves have suggested from time to time that they would l,ike to revise the basis on which un­ employment statistics are collected.

Has the Minister given any thought to what his response would be if, for instance, the Statistics Canada were to coma with a different kind of formula? Is he prepared or is the Government prepared to see a new method introduced? Because the argument in the past has always been, of course, that if you start changing then it, in a sense, tends to make govemments of whatever stripe either look better or worse so everybody has been 1110re or less content to stay with what•\hey have. How does the minister feel on that point? 4480 --··:·-.,-- ----;---:-----,._.....-~ ... ...,..--.---.~~,... -

May 22, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. J, DINN: Tape No • 1716 SD - 1 The hon. the Minister of Labour and ~~power. Mr. Speaker, anything that would improve the situation, anything that would give accurate information I would ·certainly agree with. What I believe the problem is now with respect to the statistics that are being used is the sample, the small sample, that is used with respect to when they are doing their polling on, I believe, the 15th of each month, the week of the 15th, I think there is a two per cent sample of the population.

SO, these statistics simply can not be accurate when you get down to the reqions, you know, it is just impossible doing statistics that way. If Statistics Canada or .myone else were to show me a way whereby we can get accurate statistics, I certainly would be 100 per cent in fawur of any suggestions in that area. MR. SPFAKER: l!R. F. WHITE: The hon. melltler for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. c. Power).

Yesterday at a meeting in Lewisporte a startling re~lation came to light from s~one who had been in contact with an employee of Abitibi Price and the suggestion was made that large amounts of wood ·-re going to be imported into Stephenville to supply the stephenville Linemoazd mill when tens of thousands of cords of our own wood in Newfoundland ·are dying bec-.e of the spruce budwor.a. llftd I would Iike to ask the minister if he has found out anythinq with respect to this and exactly what the position is? MR. SFEADR: MR. C. POWER: The hon. the Minister of Lands and Fomsts. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, yesterday at that _.tinq in ~sports, which waa held to discuss certain problems in the area with certain sa.wmillers and loqgers , there was that startling rewlation 111ade that one of the xeasons that the wood would not be needed in the :t.wisporte ana for the mill ~.n Grand Falls or comer Bzook was because there was such a la~ a~K~unt of wood supposedly COlling into our Province f:&Qm Nova Scotia.

Now, it is a fact of life that in Nova Scotia and eapecially in Cape Bnton Island, Nova Sootia where they had a severe spruce budwozm infestation for the last seven or eight years, that they haw harvested a great amount of that damaged. and which is now rotting 1 wood and certainly it is becaning somewhat of an embarras-nt, the fact that they have so 4481

May 22, 1980 Tape No. l 716 SD - 2 MR. C. POWER: much wood and they are trying to sell it pretty well an}'Were in the world that they can. I checked juat this moming with Mr~ Gillingham, the wpresentati:ves of the union in Grand Falls and with the Price Abitibi people, they tell me theza is absolutely no tftth at all to the rumour, that they are not takinq any Nova Scot!~ wood into the Pronnce althoUgh they haw been appro.:hed by Nova Scotia interests t;o purcha.ae same of this wood.

Aqain, there are other considerations which will not allow this to happen in N-foundland,th&t our Land Management Taxation Act which was brought into beinq in 1974, would not pe%111it Price Abitibi or Bowaters to 'lllle dam119'ed, dying wood from another province without cutting the maxi­ amount in N-fouadland to this stac;e in the game, But the mill in Grand Falls and the mill in Comer Brook, Mr.

Speaker, are usinq about 40 per cent of budwo:m da~~~aqed tillber intexmi.xed in the pulp mix in the mill itself and certainly they would not be allowed to use any more than that because of quality considerations in the world ma:dtet. And our Land Meagement Taxation Act certainly would require them to cut that amount in Newfoundland. MR. G. FLIC2!: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 4482 - ... ..--- . --~- -: - ·-~ ---·- ~· -. .._..... -------- ----~~~- - -----..;-or---·--~- .--

i1ay 22, 1980 Tape No. 1717 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: To me it is just a shocking report, Mr. Speaker. the knowledge that the wood that we are exportinq from this Province-although most people would believe that that export market and that effort comes about as a result of a salvage programme, salvaging budworm infested timber when in fact, the wood that we will importing this year is indeed not budworm infested timber - MR. D. JAMIESON: Exporting. MR. G.

FLIGHT: - exporting this year has not been exposed to the budworm, that we are exporting perfectly healthy wood and that that programme is not going to have any effect at all on the salvaging of the budworm infested timber. Would the minister care to comment on that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, certainly the export market demands br, its nature, because of the other expenses involved,_ a very healthy · type of _ wood.

And one of the very narrow lines that we have to walk as government managing the forests and doing it very well,is the fact that we do not allow too much of our healthy wood to leave this Province to go to one of the S~~vian or European countries and thereby ex:.. into CQIIP8t.i,t1on with our paper products coming out of Corner Brook or Grand Fal!s or stephenvill'it la-ter on this year. With that ~n mind,there is a problem in the Lewisporte area where th8 export af healthy wood is being curtailed somewhat. There is spruce budworm damage which will ~a exported this year.

It is up in the Bay d' Espoir region of the Province. We have some persons 4483

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 17.17 ow - 2 HR. C. POWER: from Labrador who have already been in Europe to see if they can develop a market for wood in their area which again is healthy black spruce wood which we do not particularly like to see ~eave the Province. We are hoping to have some persons coming to Uewfoundland from Europe at the last of May hoping to develop an export market but only for the budworm damaqedwhich is not needed at this stage in Newfoundland and which will not therefore caaae unfair competition to the mills in Corner Brook or Grand Falls. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. W. N.

Rot'lE: The hon. for Twillingate. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) in resper.t of what has already been questioned and answered here in the House today. There are few things I think the minister would agree with. There are a few things quite so unsettling as to see the elected Govern­ ment of the Province and the security forces of the capital city in a head to hea•_co~frontation, unsettling to the citizeas of the capital u.4 pem&p. the-~ as a whole.

Has the government given any serious consideration to appointing a commission, a govern­ ment appointed commission to run the police force in a managerial capa~ity so as to take the management of the police force-out of the hands of the government and allow the government to remain above the battle, so to speak; aad not to bring the spectre of partisan politics or politics of any kind into the day to day and general relations between the brotherhood on the one hand and the management of the police force on the other? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. 4484 ~~----- ··--;;:- -:~-~---- _...,.., ____ ....,..

.·!ay 2 2 , 19 80 Ta pe No. 1 71 7 DW - 3 MR. G. OT.TENHEIMER: ~r. Speaker, yes we have looked into. some months ago,the possibility of a police commission which has been suggested from time to time·. But after inquiries in various parts of Canada it became evident that where there are police commissions there is a multiplicity, !)y that. I do not mean two but. several law enforce·ment agencies. There is munici.pal, provincial, county, several municipalities. For e~am.ple, in Nova Scotia many municipalities have their own and~ ia 4485 ----- •:---r--

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1718 NM - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: a multiplicity of forces and in order to bring,if one wishes, a uniformity or an overall direction 1 then a police commission is established. Now , in Newfoundland,of course 1 we do not have a mulit 1plicity. ·Essentially, we have the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary policing St. John • s and the area, and the RCMP doing provincial policing in other areaa.So the reason for a police commission does not exist and I feel to have a commission would be an extra, and in this case 1 unnecessary level of bureaucracy.

You know-. with a mulitiplicity of police forces I can well imagine that a c~1ssion is necessary for overall co-ordination and a certain amount of uniformity because there are several police forces .and it is necessary. In the Province I do not view it as necessary and would view it as,therefore,an unnecessary level of bureaucracy and expenditure and red tape, etc. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Con~er Affairs and Environment.

Last Winter I asked questions of the hon. minister relating to increases in prices for oil~ various par ~ ~ f _the district, more especially on the Northern Peninsula, inflated pri~s for ~-U. - ~ l;lulk _ s~rage,how this can happen, sometimes as much as t_en cents a CJ~Oil lllld t:hl!ln havi.Dq been .no n- daliveries to existing bulk supplie~. But still the prices continue to go up and I ~ wondering what bas happened? The m:l.nister at that U.. agreed to ba- a study done and I am wondering if that study is complete and what are the results of her findings? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that survey has been made. It is completed and I think there were about fifty-two or fifty-five different communities in towns and cities in the Province that were surveyed at that particular time and right now the Committee is in the process of putting it all together and making it ready for publication. It has not reached my desk as yet and I enquired, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, and they said it was not ready yet, at that time rather. 4486

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1718 NM .,. 2 MR. SP~ (Simms I • Order 1 please! The. time fo~ Or.U. Qtle$ti,Cl'1S h.as expi:r~. ANSWn5 'l'O Q!JESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE! HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAB:ER: '1'fle hen. Miniser of Health.. MR. aotJSE:. Mr. speaker I I want to ti:lble the an~ to question number sixteen on the Order Paper. It was plaeed there by the bon. member £or La.Poile. MR. S. N'EAA'l: !.ffi. HOOSE: Another answer. Another answer. ~~67

May 22,1980 tfR.SPEAn:R (Simms): MR.SPE:An;R: MR. WARREN: petition - SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: Tape No. 1719 AH-1 Any further answers? PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon.member for Torngat Moun~ains. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I have here seven petitions but they are all dealing with the same matter so if it is okay with the Speaker and by leave of the House I will present the seven of them together. SOME HON.MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER: By leave. Agreed. I will allow the hon. member a little extra than the five minutes normally allowed.

The hon. member for Torngat. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the prayer of this petition is, ''We the provincial government employees residing and working in Labrador do hereby request our Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to consider the attached ~ief regarding Northern benefits." Now I might go on , Mr. Speaker, and say that these petitions were signed by 141 employees of this government working in Labrador.

Mr.speaker, I want to go down throu<}h the brie~ that is attached tD thia petition just to show that this government of ours has very little respect for employees of this government working in Labrador 1 to show the people of this Province how the employees are treated in Labrador. J1U111ber one, at the present time the emp-loyees of the provincial government are receiving, if they are married, $1620 Northern allowance. If they are single they receive $810.

Now, a fedeu.l government employee in Labrador is receiving $3200 Northern allowance and a single man is receiving $2000 so what this brief is asking is that the provincial government employees . receive Northern allowance to the equivalent of that paid by the federal government. In fact,they say ~t i!;; based on actual additional costs that were researched by the Public Service Alliance of 4488 ·- ·- ·--~---- ---------- .-- -~------------;-----:-.. --~ ~ ---- "! :;-"'\'- · -------

May 22,1980 Tape No. 1719 AH-2 MR. WARlU:N: canada. The figure represents the actual difference for living costs, fuel, utilities and the environmenwal allowance. Now,this is a research done by the Federal Public Service Alliance of Canada and they determined that in order to live in an isolated portion of Canada, and Labrador is an isolated portion that a married couple needs at least $3200. Now,the second request on this brief, Mr.

Speaker, is that at the present time the Northern allowance of $1620 that a married couple working with the provincial government in Labrador receives, out of that $1620 they are compelled to pay at least twenty per cent personal income tax on this Northern allowance. Now, Mr. Speaker, the federal employees again receive this Northern allowance tax free so what they are asking is,Why cannot we at least receive our Northern allowance tax free and not for twenty per cent to be absorbed by the provincial government? Mr.

Speaker, another item that is of great concern to those employees is that Labrador, as you know,is isolated and the only way to get in and out out of Labrador is by EPA or Labrador Airways or CN coastal boat in the . summer and because of the extreme, extraordinary costs it is very, very difficult for a lot of those employees to go on vacation. Thay have to spend their vacation in and az:cund Labrador because it is too expensive for them to come out to the Island or to go to other parts of Canada. And what they are asking here, Mr.

Speaker, is that they would again be treated the same as federal employees, they would be allowed at least two free trips per year to come out to the Island portion of the Province to .enjoy their annual vacation. And, Mr. Speaker, again 1 if they have to take the most economical route during the Summertime, which is by CN coastal boat,and it is much , much cheaper, a lot of those employees would gladly come this way but unfortunately it takes two to four days of their annual leave in order to come out to the Island through Lewisporte and back to Labrador again.

SO what they are saying is that if they have to come by means of CN marine at least the provincial government should consider those four days in lieu of travel. And, Mr. Speaker 1 the fifth one there'~· I believe, is pretty well attended to now but 4489 -- -----·----

May 22, 1980 Tape 1720 EC - 1 MR.. G. WABREN: I want to read out the fifth one. It is tied in with the em.rqency air ambulance proqr-. '!be hi.gh cost of traval from Labrador to the Island of Newfo~ has already been IE!1tioned. In the evant of a referr&l by a doctor or a specialist, the employee has to bear the cost on his own. Any .-ployee 'IIIIOJ:k.in<J for the provincial govern~~ent in Labrador at the preaeat U.., if he ia referred by a speci&ll.st or by a doctor ~ ~ to the Island he hu to Pll'f for the travelling on hi.a own • .

So they are ukinq tha.t we .reqaeat that in sucb. cir~tanc:es the cost of transportation be borne by qovarmant or throlagh go~t efforts by our insurance proqr-. AN aCil. MEMBER i ~ G. ifARRElh Hear, hear! I understand that those requests - maybe not all of th-, but scma of those requests - have been preaeated to Treuuzy Board by the Newfoundla.Dd Association of Public Employees on at le&at blo occ:uiona durinq the past several years and have been of uo avail. Mr. Speuar, I further understand tha.t this brief, u att&cb.ed to this petition, will be presented to cabinet when they· vt.it Labrador in June. So, Mr.

SpeU&r, I beliaw th&t this gove~t should sariously look at those uployHa in Labrador. 'ftlere are 141 of th- and I understand there haw been telaqr ... rac:eiwd froa those &lonq the Labrac3or Coast 'IIIIOrkinq with BDral Develotaant, ud they have also attacb.ed their ~• to this petition - that thi.a qo~t should sarioual.y loolr. at t:bose 8111ployees. '!bey are 8J11Ployaes of this CJO~t_, the ~t that is rUDDiDq this P%a9ince of s.wfom:!dland aDd Labrador. .... . ... So if- -~ aployeea in I.Uirador, we ~ini.tely should treat tbaa fairly and equivalent to e~~Ploy•s of the fedaral. service. Mr.

Speaker, i.t - contin1111 to treat those UIPloyeea in I.Uir&dor as probably secoDd­ clua citizens, then - are qoinq to lose th-. 'rhey are qoinq to be absoz:bed into the federal -rvice and we are qoinq to lose soae really qood employ-s. Mr. Speaker, I hereby wi.ah to have those seven petitions pl&cad on the table of this bon. House and referred to the departaent to which they relate. SOME BOH. MEMBERS J Rear, hear! 4490

May 22, 1980 Tape 1720 EC - 2 MR.. SPEAKER (Si-): The hon. the Mi.ni.ster of Municipal Affairs aDd Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I wish to respond ~ry briefly to this petition. I IIIWSt say that I am IIIDSt anxious to see them iUid I simply want to say that I find this highly unusual, that employeee of the Province would petition the House of Assembly on matters that ha,. been the subject of 1.1Dion negotiations for which their union b.a signed an ~....nt with this Province. If they intend to JU!90tiate in the Houae of Assembly, then I a afraid we are in for a roWJb, trip. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR.

SPE.AKER: MR. J. GOODIE : present petition, if I may. Hear, hear! Further petitions. Mr. Speaker 1 I wanted to address the MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry, there is only ona person allowed to respond from each sida other than the D8111ber presenting. 50MB HCK. MEMBERS 1 MR. SPEADR: By leave. By lea,.? By lea.,., the ·hon. the MillUter of Rural, Agri.cultural. and Northern Dev.l~t. MR. J. GOUDIE 1 Mr. Speaker 1 I wish ta tlluk hon. -.bera opposite.

I. just want to indicate in addrusing this petition that I. have talked ta a. qrea.t D.UIIIIber of employees, thoee in my Olfll departmant IIDd other employ ... of the provincial qoverzment wbo work, partic:ula.rly in the JU.izebeth Goudie Building in Happy Valley, iUid we have been diacusainq this particular conce:z:n. I wu of the UDderatudinq f;a. tbua· .-pl.oye- that the -t~ would be deal.t with when cabinet via.ited the a.ppy Va.llay - Goose Bay area on the 9th and lOth of June to acaept Ddefs fro. individ.u.a.la or qroup8 in that particular area. I. sympathi.ze with sa.. of the concerns they have cupressed..

But I. think, as the President of Tmaaury Baud,. ay collQ9Ue, the MiDi&~ of Mui.cipal Affairs and Housinq (Mr. N. Windsor) pointed out, these types of thinqa are also subject to union ll8C)Dtiations. So it will be dealt wi.th, I think, in a. very real way when the opport1.1Dity presents itsel.f on the 9th and lOth of JUlie in 4491

May 22, 1980 Tape 1720 EC - 3 MR. J. GOO'DIE : Happy Valley - GOose Bay. OIIDUS Ol' "rBE llAY .MR. Sl'UKBlb c:c-ittae of the lllhole on a bill For EDViroDIIIent&l AsHUlllllllt,• (BUl ~. 13). On liDtioD, ta.t the lfouae a.olw it:Mlf into COiait~ of the WhQla on saiillilill 1 Hr. Spa~ lett tile Oaail:. 4492

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1721 NM- 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Bill 13. Shall clause one carry? The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: There was som~misunderstanding on this side of the House as to precisely what we were going to get into. It was our understanding that it was going to be the flag and I think maybe I have heard the House Leader chatting back and forth with the hon. Leader, maybe he c_ould explain just what we are going to do. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: I regret if there is, Mr.

Chairman, but I thought I quite clearly said yesterday when we adjourned that we were going to put the bills which were in Committee, through Committee and,of course, on everybody's mind is the Flag Committee and you know that was mentioned. We are certainly going to get to that. But we have already gotten these four, five or six in Committee now and it is just as well to put tr~ through. It is not - r·would submit it is not a matter of any great substance because there is only one amendment that r will be proposing presently and ~~ey have all been - you know they have all been debated.

I thought yesterday that I bad made it clear. If I did not I apologize to bon. members. On motion clause one, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause two carry? The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. ChaiD!Ian, this is the one place where. to my knowledge,there is an amendment and this is an amendment in clause 2C.

o) to the definition of water. And the amendment which I now propose is that clause 2 (

o) be amended by inserting the words "jurisdiction of the" iDmediately after the words "within the" in the second line. So if I could explain to the Committee; the purpose of that amendment is to make -- - - quite clear that the Province is only, in this particular caser of environemntal assessment where there is some question as to the jurisdiction on the water with. respect to the environment 1 that we are only claiming it with respect- we are only taking responsibility in those areas where we have jurisdiction. 4493

May 22 , 1980 Tape No. 1721 NM - 2 MR:. MABSHALL: And similarl.y another am~dlnent in that same clause is by deleting the words "coastal water within the Province" in the ·fifth line and by sUbstituting the words "water above the bed .of the sea that is within the jurisdiction of the " Province." So onoe aqain to assue that the appllcatioD, only applies to those area. where the Provincs hu jurisdiction. I move the amendlllent. carried. MR. CHAiliMAN (Btitt): On motion amendment carried. On DICtion clause two as ~ded~ ca:t"ried. On DIO .tion clauses 3 th:rouqh 35 Shall. clause 36 carry? Tile ho11. member for Windsor-Buchans. 4494

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1722 EL - l MR. G. FLIGHT: Clause 36, Mr. Chai%lllan, subsection - AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudibl"

e) MR. FLIGHT: No, we are doing clause by clause, We are not going into - subsection. (2) "An ~mdertaking that is in proqress before this Act comes into force is exempt from this .Act~ Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister and I have had conversations regarding this particular clause prior to today and I sub­ mit to this.::.House, Mr .Speaker, that if this bill is passed without amending this clause, it was useless to have ever att~ted to bring this Bill into the Bouse: The Bill will .mean nothing.

An Act that is - any undertalc.inq in Newfoundland today 1 an'jthing that is going on in this Province today, any construction project, any ongoing undertaking by a construction company 1 a mining company , the major paper COII!fanies, the sa111111illing companies, any undertakir.q by any company that is in proqress before this Act comes into force is exei'IPt from this Act. And, Mr. Chairman, if this House accepts this Act with that clause as is then the minister will have succeeded in introducinq a useless bill because I have said before, Mr.Cbail:man, in this House, that nothing will happen.

It is almost incon~vable that anything in this Province over the next f~ve or six years will happen that cannot be pleaded or cannot be justified aa something that was happening today. The obvious one . is the ~ caapaniu, Mr. Chai:caan~ .~ere are areas in this Province that the paper companies hold now by right of lease or grant in which there is no undertaking, there is no equip.ent 1 there is DO cutting, there is no project goinq on, there is no flooding and, Mr.

Cbainuan, the people of this Province have a right, if they believe in this Act, that from now on that if a paper COJilP&IlY or a sa-illing c:ompany wanta to go into an area, that hereto- fore they have ~ot been into 1 that that should be subject to this legislation, <fhat they should then have to comply witll all the legislation. 4495 ------

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1722 EL - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: But under this Act the paper companies can say we have been here for fifty years and the fact we are going into a new area in the Province and we are going to start cutting or diverting rivers or bulldozing roads_, that is al.r;eady in proqress, we started ten years ago. That is part of our plans. It is in progress. That is the paper companies.

Any llliJUng company that is already operating . in this Province can say that anything - do- the stripping that we will do in the Tu.lk 's area or the roads we bull throuqh to get to the mine sight...,;ts, al.ready part of what was happening before this Bill was proclaimed.

The government itself - highroad con~ struction, quarrying and I want to hear the minister and I can, Mr.Speaker, to the point that I can, I intend to keep standing up-,on this amendment until I hear the minister either satisfy me that my concerns are not well-founded or that she is prepared to accept the ammendment to . this particular clause. There -is no point in this world, it is bluffery at its worst to bring a Bill into this House that is supposed to protect the environment of this Province for all time and to ·have- a clause that says, any undertaking that is in progress .

The old Churchill Fal.la development can be a.J:9Ued. There are lawyers in this country -no -can ~ that any work we do on the Lower Churchill from now on is part of an undertaking that was in progress. Lawyers for the Amerie4ll Sllleltin9jcd Re­ fining Company can argue that any work we do on any of our concessions is an undertaking that was in progress and escape all the costa that may resullt ·as a result of this Bill. 4496 ---,~---·--- ---·--- --------- ---· ...,_ . --r:----~~~~-:--:-r ---::-~:--:;--· ~ "':~ . ....-..~-

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1722 £L - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT: The ~~~&jo~ paper COJiilanies , Bowaters , Abitibi Price can arque and tlieiJ: lawyen can argue that anyth:inq we do on the lancls we own in ·this Province is an eXtension of what we were do ·inq and therefore was an undertakinq befoze this leqislation came into effect. And, Mr. Speaker, that cl&use makes it totally s~id - this particular Bill. It will serve no pw:pose. ADd I want to hear the Minister, Mr. Speaker, now, would she colllllleJ\t on those remarks ? MR. cHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and EnviNnment. MRS.H. NEWliOQK: Yes, Mr.

Chai:r:miln, al.l the new extensions of any industries- now in existence would have to come under this EnviNa- mental Assessment Act and it is only the existinq in~ustry, as it operates fro~~~ -day to ·day at the time that this Act ~s into force, that will not be ~red to cOllie unaer the Act. Now, all of these industries do come under our ConsUlll8r and Envizonmental Act and all of ~se comp~es - and I stand on my reputation when I say that Abitibi Price and Bowaten and various companies aNund 4497 ~~·:·~-~·~ ---~--~- --·- --- -~~~""!:"- .. -- .... -~- ... ':"':~""""'~:· --

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1723 so - l MRS. H. NEWHOOK: the Province are on compliance schedules and under our COnsumer and Environmental Poet that is required of them. It would be a great burden on existing industries now to go in at· this point and say, 'Look, you haw got to shut cbwn, you have got to put in new equipment, you haw got to comply with this new P.ssess~~ent Act.' And that is why these industries are exempt from the Environmental Asses51118nt Act, the new Act, but they are required to COIIPlY under a period of time.

And with that kind of compliance in place we feel that this Environmental P.ssessment Act is adequate. And all of those things that you mention , we would consider that as being extensions or new projects or new types of undertakings that would be dane in conjunction with the existing business and that would have to come undar an impact study. MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Ol.airman. MR. CHAimaN (Butt): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. !JAMIESON: I want to thank the hon. minister for her explanation, I just want to be clear, because I am in full a<J%eement with my colleagua from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. G.

Flight), if what appears I is ,in fact, the case. And could I, just f_or clarification pU%pOses, pose let us say a hypothetical question,that the Long Rarb011r plant at this IIIOIIIeJ1t was in the planning stage and had not, in fact, proceeded - I am just using it, as I sa.i.d 1 hypothetically - the exemption as referred to -,. in this, if we understand it co:n:ectly, wouU mean that they could then, say, haw proceeded as they did a decadll or whatever it was ago with all of the unfortunate ramifications that cue about as a :reault of that.

Now, is the ainistar sayinq that, for instance, if thexe · is a project on the drawing boazds, as it we:re, now. or soae kind of co.U.t:Dant has been made or an mmounce.ent or somthing of that nature has bee~ --~-~~ ~ -~ _a_ project will,~n fact, be cowreQ... . by tiles legislation and that they will not be able to sit back aDd just carry on with environmentally unacceptable practices on the grounds that they got in 1to use the vemacular 1 under the wi:re'l Am I understanding the minister correctly when I ask that question? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Cb~~SUBer Affairs and Environment. 4496

Hay 22, 1980 Tape No. 1 723 SD - 2 MRS • H. NEWHOO!t: Yes, Mr. Olai:rman, if the industry or the de"Velopment has been approved and it is in operation then it is exempted from the Environmental Assessment Act but that does not say that they are exempted from complyinq with this Act, you knew, that all industries have to comply and what would happen,then,is that these industries that aze a.l.ready in operation now are on a compliance schedule, ERCO is on a compliance schedule. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Chai:z:man. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): 'lhe hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: I am not satisfied, Mr.

Chairmm, with the minister's answer and I wmt to tell her that in- risinq - when she :rose to address herself to it 1 she would stake her reputation, I think she used some wo!.'ds to that extent 1 I am not questioning the minister's integrity, I am not questioning the minister's intentions in this but I haw to say that from the minister's explanation to me then she is either not UDderstanding what I am talking abOilt or she is attempting to cloud the <issue. She referzed to, you know, so- compmy would haw to shut Clown.

I am not talltinq about a company shutting down; I - saying that if Abitibi Price or Bowaters or AS11RCD,tomonow ., wanted to go into another piece of real estate in this Province, if they wanted to go into a nww area and decided they wanted to raise the water lewls of a qi "Ven lake that they have not, up to this point in time, touched or seen, wby should not that particular undartakinq- now 1 that would not haw the effect,if- stopped them until they complied with this Act and h&98 - ~ .. -- ·--·- -~ --· an enrirom1e11tal hearinq, that would not shut dDwD the operation, that would ~ h.,. .

J nothinq to do with shutting it down. So I aa sayinCJ tlo the ai.Jiister it has qot nothinCJ to do with shutting down a.pani.es already operatinq, I ~· with her that would be a ridiauloua situation, but I am sayinCJ that if there is a fish plant in this Province today that wants to talk about expandinq two years from now and if that fish plant is already creatinq problems for the co11111unity that it exists in with stench and smells 1 as the minister knows already exists in this Province, then these reCJulations 4499 ..... .. --·-

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1724 NM- 1 MR. FLIGHT: should apply to that fish plant.

And any undertaking that the major canpanies of this Province are considering, that has nothing to do with their.operation now, that they are going in and disturbing the environment in another area, quite apart from where they are operating, should - there is no logical reason why if Price (Nfld.) or Abitibi Price or the Newfoundland Government, or any of the companies operating in this Province, if they want to raise the water ~evel of a certain pond or lake in this Province now, or two years from now to supplement their wood supply, then there is no reason why they should be exempted from this bill.

It has nothing to do with closing it down. And the other point the minister makes, and it is not germane to this legislation but she brought it up so I will take it a little further, she talked about how the companies, Abitibi Price or any other companies are already complying with the consumer and environmental regulations in this Province, or legislation. The minister should check with her people out in the field.

I recall getting into a v~ great controversy in this House about three years ago where I was painted as being an~i-Price, or anti-Abitibi, or anti-development, because I complained about the wood that was free floating in Red Indian Lake, an environmental hazard. And I will tell the minister now that Price (Nfld.) and these companies might be complying with her l~g~slati~~ ?ut if they are, her legislation is pretty weak because there is more wood floating in Red Indian Lake today than ever before.

It looks to me like the companies concerned are actually defying the minister, and defying this government and saying, "We will do what we like~' To heck with the controversy you raised, and tc heck with the fact that members -stood up in this .House of Assembly and questioned their right to do that, and questioned their right to allow hundreds of ' thousands of cords of wood to be lost to the economy of this Province, to float around in Red Indian Lake, to cause boating accidents, to cause drownings. Because nothing has happened it is worse today.

In case the minister does not know, she should check with her people, with her branch office and find 4500

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1724 NM - 2 MR. FLIGHT: out what is going on out there. And it is not a forestry problem. It is not a forestry problem at all. The Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Powerl has no responsibility in this area. He has a responsibility to control the · cutting and the transportation and that kind of thing of Price (Nfld.). But the Minister of E.'"'lvirorunental Affairs (Mrs.

Newhook) should be the one who is talking to Price (Nfld~) about the mess they are creating up there and about the way the wood that they are allowing to float is polluting the whole waterways down through that area, and creating hazards to the public of this Province. And,of course ,the biggest crime of all, the biggest crime of all is the economic waste, the thousands and thousands of cords of wood that will never see - MR. LUSH: Light of day. MR.

FLIGHT: We talked today about excorting wood; the minister got up in the Question Period and explained about how we would eX?Qrt some of the budworm infested wood, or how we would probably have to import wood from Nova Scotia. Well , the two ministers"should get their heads together and have Price (Nfld.) explain to us how it is that we are still permitting that company to waste thousands and thousands of cords, never see a mill · in Grand Falls, new wood cut last year. The whole production of a camp floating around on a forty-eight mile lake, depending on ~e prevailing winds to get it down to the Exploits D~.

The resevoir is full now. The first time for four or five years the resevoir of Red Indian Lake was full. The water is up to the trees. And as it starts to drop back most of that wood is going to stay up there too. ----- - - -:;- ~ MR. HOLLE'l'T: Right on. MR. FL IGHT : So, Mr . Speaker, if the minister wants to talk about how the companies are complying, all we have to do is get in our cars and drive across this Province and we will see how the companies, that she is talking about, comply with the environmental regulations in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) satisfied. MR.

FLIGHT: So, I am not satisfied and I want a yes or no answer from the minister. I want to know that if the companies that are 4501 -

'----·- May 22, 19.80 Tape No. 1724 NM- 3 MR. FLIGHT: already - the projects that are already ongoinq, is the paper industry in · this Province today consi&!red, for the purpose of this leqisl.ation, as ongoing'? W·ill one of the paper. comp;anies be aQJ.e to go into ~ area of this Province that to this point in time they have not gone into, they have not cut or they ba.ve not disturbed the enviromnent, theY have not daiQI!Ied any brooks, raised any water ievels?

Now, I want to know that if that company will be bound by this legislation? can that company ignore this legislation if they want to go in and flood a new a1;8a, ~ a new river, build a new toad? Nothing to do with What they a:re doing up to this point in time. If they wan· t to cut in tile Red Indian Lake area, they want to cut in the Sandy area or Wher.ever they -~= cuttingr t accept that is exempt. But if they ~o into a new area, if theY qo to build a new fourteen mile road throuqh virgin country, country they have not gone into before - MR. TULK.: . MR.

F:W:GHT: they are going On the Gander Bay Road. - on the Gander ·Bay Road,perhaps, or if 4502 -·-- ·---

Mav 22, 1980 Tape 1725 EC- l MR. G. FLIGHT z to flood a pond for any reason, to either drive wood or to store water 1 will they be able to proceed with that kind of a project exempt from this leqislation beca'llSe of that requlation?

If a lllininq company 1 to be veey specific, if American 58altinq and Rafi.ninq Company tomorrow, who the Premier and the Minister of Mines and Energy knows is lookinq at lllinillq ill the Tulk5 uea, twenty-seven llliles frOID Bw:hans, that they ha'V'8 11ever been in before, other t:11.an theiz prospectors 1 new, are they goillq to be exempt ----- ·· -· ·- f%om this leqisl&tion by pl-dillq that this is an onqoinq - you mow, 'We are in the llli.ninq business fiftv years in Newfoundland, so that is an ongoinq p:r:oject'? Dll. J. COLLINS 1 MR. G. FLIGHT1 That is a liberal intazprstation.

It may be a liberal intuprstation but I ce~nly w~~ _to hear __ the --~r. we will be ~ere I will tall you. Wbat about the barite operation that is goinq to take place for ~t sake? We are "qoinCJ illto a barite operation in Buchans. Now, I aa not inaistinq that that barite operation not be eDIIIpt f:r:om this - z am sUiply ukinCJ the minister will - that is a totally and 0011pletely 11- WldartakinCJ by the company concerned. Now will that operation be ezapt from this leqislation becau.e it. is beinq cazried on by a ~ that hu b- lllininq in this Province for tw.nty years? How, Mr.

Speaker, if the minister does not UDderstand Jtrf questions, let - ~ aDCl I wil.l ask th- aqain. ADd u I say, I vut a yes or no answer. ML SPBU:ER (u-) z and~t. MRS. H. NEWBOOJ:: 1 The bon. the Mini.ster of Cons~r Affairs Mr. Speaker, all - UDdartakinqa, vbather they be by' utabllshed COIIIp&Dies or n- C13JPuiU or ~­ about to be eatabllallad, co.. under this - act. If ua established CCIIII&DY is qoillCJ out into a. nav area, if it is t.akizlCJ on a n- kind of project, r&CJil.Z'dless of wllether that cempany has been ill N~onndland for fifty yeaza, if it uters 4503 -- -··-- ··-- ·--- -------·--· -·---- --- --

May 22, 1980 Tape 1725 EC - 2 MRS. H. NEtiHOOK: into new areas, somewhere where it bas not been before, if it is qoinq to do sometlUnq different fr0111 what it has done before, they have to do an environmental. impact study •. Now, with 'reqard to mininq, if an existinq mine is qoinq to mine a different kind of ore 1 is qoinq into a different type of mininq, -u then, that ~ under this act and they have to do · an assesiiiBnt or do an illlpact study before approval ia qiwn.

And anythinq requirinq approval fro• our depan:..nt, well, then a. tonvi.- uses.-nt has to be done, and then if we decide that it requires a full.-sca.le aases~D~~Bnt, then - will make that decision and that will haw to take place. MR. G. !'LIGHT: Mr. Qlaiman. MR. CIAXmtAN (Butt) : ~e hon. the member for Windsor - Buch&Ds. MR. G. FLIGHT1 Mr. Chaiz:aan, the lllini.ster C8IIB ver[ close to satisfyinq- on that last answer. However, there was somethinq in her explanation that bothered - a bit and I would l.ika to have her usuraDce.

She indicated that if a ~y that waa al..rttady operating in thia Province qoes into an area for iiiiOtbar ~, somathinq which­ t.hay have not done before, then they will be subject to this act. well, Mr. Speaker, the f~t is that all thaae I can think of tb&t Price (llfld.) - Abitibi Price DOW, Bowat:ers, to n.- two, aDd Vc Beak in Lewisport• to n- three, and I could keep ~9', all they do ia cut wood. 'Die Ollly thinCJ that the papa£ CCIIP•ni •s in tlU.s Province have done to bart tile ennro-t ia · to cut wood and trusport it.

IDAafar u diatm:binq the environ.ant of this Province, tho•• ccmpaniea that I have nu.d will probably do · natbi.Dq to hurt the environment except cut wood and traDSPOrt it. So what I want to be clear Olz' -me -llinister --.,. ~-· says that if thay qo in to do scmeth.inq that they have not done before, a new WldertakiDc;r, and if Price (llfld.) toiiiDrrow vera to decide to qo into the entertailliiiiUlt business and build a theatre or an outdoor complex, that would be quite different froa whAt they are doinq now, and therefore, I: suppose, they could not plead they are not required to abide by this act. 4504

M&y 22, 1980 Tapel725 EC - 3 ~. G. FLIGHT: But if the companies concerned, Price (Nfld.) - Abitibi, .Bowaters if they .decide to qo into a new area that they have not been in before for the purpose of cuttinq ·and tranaportinq wood, will they then be subject to the clauses to this act - if t:Jaay qo into a new area that they have not been into before, a new undertaking in the sensa that it ia a new area to cut mora wood.?

But obviously, they will be doing what they have dcme for fifty years, it wlll.ba an extan.ioD of their proqr-s, but it is in a new area altoqether, and up to DOW the lmvUoniH!lt has not been diatw:hed - qoinCJ into that area for the purpose of cuttinCJ and transportinCJ wood, which is their business, or flood.inCJ lakes or flooding rivers or divertinCJ waters or buil.cli.DIJ access roads, will they then be u:empt fram this act, in view of the fact, of course, that they are qoinq in to cut woad, which is all they do in this Province anyway? MR. CJIAIBMAN (Butt) : MR. W.

MAl!SHALL z '1'he hon. the Prasidmlt of the Council. Hr. Cb•irman, if I could just - just for a _t, becaWie X la:low the hon. IIIUiber was concerned about this and I thiDk he bmaght it up at the t.ime of second reading, so I know it ia a ll&ttu' of great concezn to him. As the minister has already indicated in her reply, there are other acta other than this Envim~tal Aa..-a-.at Act which pmtect the envi%oiiiii8J1t, but specifically, I just wonder if I 4505

ltay 22, 1980 Tape No. 17 2 6 DW -.1 ~fR. W. :1ARSHALL: could direct the hon. member's attention to page 5, the definition of an undertaking. •undertaking"means any enterorise,activity,project, st~ucture work, poliey,proposal, plan or programme that may,in the opinion of the ministe~ have a significant environmental impact and includes a modification,an extension 1 an abandon­ ment, a demolition and a rehabilitation thereof. Now, in my

interpretation of that particular definition this would seem to meet the question that the hen. member rose. Now,I know it may not be completely to his satisfaction but it certainly gives the minister a discretion in the event of any prolongations or extensions of work conducted by a paper cornoany or, for that matter, any corporation or any business carrying on business in this Province which has environmental aspects to it. I would also say to the hon. member that, T think, we also have to bear in mind that this is the first time

an Act of this nature has been brought here before the _Legislature and ~t is to the eve-rlasting credit of the minister that it is here before the Legis­ ·lature and at the stage of being enacted. And.indeed, for the first time an environmental assessment of similar nature was carried on in Labrador recently. So the point is this,when you try to establish a programme such as this to innovate a programme,you have to bring it in and you have to balance all sides. You have to b•lance the sides of the necessity to protect the environment in this case as well as other considerations.

I am aware that the concerns raised by the hon. member are legitimate. He brought them up in second reading but I would submit that the questions he asked are met by that definition, maybe not completely to his satisfactionp 4506

May 22, 1980 Ta;:>e No. 1726 DW - 2 MR. W. !1ARSHl•LL: but there are other Acts,as the minister indicated 1 that can protect the environment in the event that a concern or an undertaking is carried on in a manner that is adversely affecting the environment. And, I would suggest to the hon. member that while I do not dero­ gate or denograte the concerns that he raised,that he should give this Act an opportunity to be in full force in effect. I believe that his concerns have been met by the Act itself.

And I certainly know that as far as this go~ernment is concerned with his concerns about the environment 1 that nothing adverse to the environment by a business, an industry which is operating in this Province,will and can be tolerated by this government in the future. And we have, r think, enough legislative protection to protect the public to this end. If we have not we will bring it in in the future. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Shall clause 36 carry? The hen. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I accept the hon. Government House Leader's (Mr.

Marshall) intervention in the debate and I accept his coming to the rescue of the minister. But, Mr. Chairman, it does not matter what clause 2, subsection (

N) says. It does not matter what the explanation of an undertaking is. The fact is that there is a clause here, Mr. Chairman, this is the clause that the paper companies and the mining companies and any other companies that want to interfere with the environment of this Province 7 thi~ is the clause that they will hang their hats on. Thisiis the one that they will come in and say to the minister, 'We are exempt because of this clause here. Look, this is an ~ertaking that was in progress!. This was in progress. 4507

::lay 22, 1980 Tape No. 1726 DW 3 MR. W. :1ARSHALL: If the hon. member will permit me? The hon. member has already indicated there is other legisla­ tion dealing with that. :•!P.. G. FLIGHT: Well, :·1r. Chaiz:man,that is what concerns me because I have seen nothing to this point in my life to indicate there is anything in this Province. This is the first piece of legislation, ~r. Chairman, that I am ~ware of that has been ever introduced to have the effect of protecting the en~ironment of this Province. The minister says-and he makes ­ a bad case - because the minister says there is other legislation.

Well, there may· be-other legislation but I assure the minister it is not being conformed to. I cannot think, Hr. Chair~an, of a worse - I cannot think of an environment that has been desecrated any worse than the environment of this Province up to this point in time. Comp~nies have run wild, individuals have run wild, mining companies have run wild, they have done what they like. ~he Department of Transportation and Communications does what it likes in quarrying it destroys the countryside by 3oing in and quarrying.

There is no indication out there, there is no indic~tion for the average Newfoundlander that there is anything in effect in this Province that has any effect of controlling the people who are developing in this Province. So, Mr. Chairman, the minister says 4508

May 22,1980 Tape No. 1727 AH-1 l".R.FLIGHT: that the legislation is already there. Well, if he is so sure of that, why bother, why bring this in?

If the environment of this Province i~ being protected now,or if there is. any evidence that any of the companies, particularly the companies that are responsible for the disturbance of the environment, the mining companies, the paper companies, the construction companies and the fishing companies, if there is any legislation right now that in any way protects tha environment then I would like to see that legislation because the minister could make a lot of charges tomorrow.

At ~~e back of every piece of legislation there is a penalty, it says, "Anyone breaking this leqislation or anybody in offence of this leqislation" there are cond.itiona under which - the minister would spend the rest of her year, if there is such a legislation in place, if there is indeed such legislation in place, the minister could ~pend the rest of :~ year haulinq the people wl:io are ignoring the legislation into court and h&vinq th- tried under "we legislation. Even the minister knows that. The minister is from Gander.

She has to drive into the city once in a while so she sees what is happening all along the Trans-Canada without going into the woods operation or the fishing operation, the coastal c.ommunities where the fish plants are or the boats that are coming in and dumping oil all over the bays. So , Mr.

Speaker, let us forget the legislation that is existing, if it is existing it has been ignored and I would tell the minister this, that this legislation- and she better be prepared to enforce this legislation more than any existing legislation that up to this point has beeneDlbrced,because if not we know now that this is an utter waste of time because the legisl~tion;that exists in this Province "today to protect the environment na. been ign~it has been ignored by the individuals of this Province,it has been ignored by the development companies, that it was written to pro~this Province from, it has been ignored by the government, it 4509 - - ------ -·- - - - -

May 22,1980 Tape No. 1727 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: has been ignored by the minister and it has been ignored by the minister's administrators. And the proof, Mr. Speaker, is in the pudding. Just go outside of the city, drive across this Province, go into the mining towns, go into the communities where there are plants of any kind, go anywhere and the minister will see. So, Mr. Speaker, I could go on like this for a month,I suppose,and it would not make any difference. I want one last shot.

I want to hear the minister indicate that she is prepared to acknowledge in this House that that clause will not exempt companies already operating in this Province,in the event of another undertaking in an area that they are not I1CIW working, whether it be mining, whether it be logging or any other activity that would have the effect of interfering with the environment, that if it is a new undertaking,apart from what what has already happened, that they will not be exempt from this legislation? MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) The hon. the Minister of ConsUIIler Affairs ~ Environment. MRS NEWHOOK: Yes ., Mr.

Chairman, this act does cover new underta:tings by existing companies. It covers extensions of present undertakings and our Consumer and Environmental Act , we do have prosecutions under that act but I am sure the hon. member recognizes that you have to have proof to prosecute and therein,of course,lies our trouble because I am sure that we have many people in Newfoundland who see others polllati.Dqthe countryside but they are never very quick to come forward and give us information so that we can prosecute.

Of course, this act here is to prevent poJ.lutioD befon it occurs or to prevent damage against the environment before it occurs. Our other act takes care of it after it occurs • ADd thea, of course, under this new act we have · a monitoring process so that we can keep checks on companies that might pollala or have the ability to pollllta .•. On Jlll)tiOD, Cla_. 36, curiae!. 4510

.. .., I I i ~ 0 ; ..,. ..c: g' e I ! -5 .J 'A .s en 0 .., Ill I B IJ ~ I J .. .. J: ..... .-l N 0 .J: ·i ..... .-l ~ a:! I ! & 0 0 •j I z ; t ..-- ll 8 ..-- I j U") ~ 8 I' • -4" .. ~· fi -;. i "' .M g H Ill I 1 .. J 2 I en l .-l . .a N " I N ·M ~ ~ ~· .i ::l: 0

May 22, 1980 MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. ~"EARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. MARSmu.L: Tape No. 1728 EL-l two more Bills, Order 6, Bill No. 16. Bill number what? Sixteen. Is that the flag Bill? No. That is the Newfoundland Arts Council. (Inaudible) get on with the flag bill? The flag - well, we will pass the others in block and we will get to the flag bill, if you like. MR. CBiu:RMAN (BUTT) : Order, please! Bill No. 16, "An Act Respecting The Establishment Of A Newfoundland And Labrador Arts Council." On motion,Clause (1) through (16) carried.

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. (Bill No. 16) MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Bill No. 12, "An Act To Provide For Natural Areas In The Province To Be Set Aside For The Benefit, Education And Enjoyment Of Present And Future Generations In The Province." on motion, Clause (1) tt~ough (28), carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. (Bill No. 12) MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Bill No. 46, "An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act." on motion, Clause 1, carried.

Motion, that the Conmittee report having passed the bill without amendment, ca=ied. (Bill No. 46) 4512

May 22, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): For The Province. MR. STIRI.DIG: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1729 NM- l Bill No. 44.

An Act To Adopt A Flag What? Shall clause one carry? No, Mr. Chairman, not quite. The han. member for LaPoile. Mr. Chairman, I do not know if we have to adopt ~e whereases in this bill or not but there are one, two, three, four whereases there and I believe they have to be dealt with.

I do not know whether Your Honour is coming back to the whereases but first o·.f all let me say straight away that the Government House Leader today, the strategy of the government today in calling the other bills and stalling this bill and jumping over and going from twenty-two to forty-six and leaving out forty-four, I would say that was deliberate because the Government House Leader saw that there was a fair representation from the Canadian Legion in the gallery and was hoping to stall the Colllaittae of the Whole on this particular bill, the flag, hoping that they would just up and leave.

Well, they are not going to leave, Mr. Chairman. The representatives of the Canadian Legion and other people in the galle~] who are interested in this subject are not going to leave. And the han. gentlemen can try all the dirty tricks, all the strategy, all the political manoeuvering he wants. This is going to stay whether the hon. gentleman likes it or not. And so, Mr. Cha:innan, I do not know how Your Honour is going to deal with the whereases because some of these whereases are not correct. Some of the whereases are stated incorrectly. They do not state the facts.

And let me give Your Honour one example, it says, ''Whereas the Select Committee on the Flag met and held," listen to this Your Honour, this is false and misleading and untrue. It is untrue. MR. WARREN: Right on. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ I would like to L~form the hon. member that wflE.n the clauses are carried, when we have dealt with. the clauses I would go to the

preamble and then it would be better dealt with under the

preamble. 4513

May 22, 19 .80 Tape No. 1729 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: Well, I prefer to deal with the

preamble first. So Your Honour can deal with it how he wants. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : It is not called. We are dealing with clause one, "This Act may be cited as The Provincial Flaq Act." And when we qo through the clauses and go to the

preamble the han. member may make his comments. MR. NEARY• Well, I will save my comments. Either way it does not make any difference. I think we are entitled to have a go at it either way. MR. JAMIESON: MR. CHAIRMAN: Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A point of order. A point of order, the han. Leader of the I would obviously yield to authorities on parliamentary procedure but under what grounds do we leap over the

preamble, which is really establishing the whole premise on which the act is put together MR. llfEARY l . MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: PREMIER PECKFORD: It has always been done that way. It is the President of the House - (Inaudible) ud. - &llraya ~ bac:lt to tbe preallble. That is just the parliamentary procedure that has been in place for a long, long time. MR. JAMIESON: I thank the hon. gentlemen for their learned disco~se on it. I . have seen it done in other ways. MR. NEARY: In other Houses. MR.

JAMIESON: In other Houses, and I must say before I sit down 1 that it seems to me to be sCBDething that perhaps scmebody should look at because I do not kDow why you · de&te a prtlalllbla after yau h&v. paa•ad. all the clauses that come after it. MR. NEARY• To . that point of order, Mr. Chai:z::man, to that point of order. 4514 --------- --- -·- ·--

Hay 22, 19.80 Tape No. 1729 NM- 3 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Yes, to the point of order. MR. NEARY: The

short title itself leaves the thing completely wide open, and how can you deal - how can you deal with the

short title which is, "This Act may be cited as The Provincial Flag Act," if you cannot deal with the whereases. I never heard of the like in this House Your Honour, I never heard of it before. As a matter of fact, most bills, this is an unusual bill, because ninety-nine per cent of the bills do not have whereases in it as we have here. MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. To the point of order, the hon. the Nobody is trying to curtail any legitimate observations, whatever they may be in Committee.

And the hon. gentleman is attempting now to give the impression that the government is attempting to ~l deb_ate but we are calling - MR. 'l'HOMS I Trying to muzzle the Opposition again. MR. MARSHALL: - Your Honour is calling clauses in accordance with the accepted order of considering matters in Committee. Y9u call clause one, clause two, however many clauses there are and then you come back to the

preamble. And at that time, in accordance with- the order, the hon. gentleman is welcome to make any remarks that he may wish to make that are in order. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order I would rule there is no point of order at this particular time and I would just like to point out for the benefit of all hon. members, and I refer to ..., 4515 ----------- --·-·· -------------. -·---=--,---

May 22, 1980 Tape No • 1 730 so - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) Beauchesne 76 7. "By Standing Order 75, the title, preillllble and Clause 1 (if it contains only the

short titlE!) stand postponed until the consideration of all clauses and schedules is completed." 5o we do the clauses then we qo to the

preamble,

short title and title and so on in that order. MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Chairlnan, with respect - MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. J.IIMIESON: I think that your reading of that illustrates precisely what I was saying a few roments aqo, 'if it contains only the

short title' , and that embraces the

preamble and all the rest of it. I do suggest, and I am not hung up on the point, if my hon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) is that is a different matter, but I do suqg-est that in the interest of keeping the record straight that there is a disti ,nct difference between procedure &s being carried out by the Chairman where, if I am quotinq him correctly, that the preuele, etc. contain only the

short title then you ccae back to it. But

whereas in this case there are a number of basic points in the

preamble it seems to me that pemaps there miqht be another citation which indicates that the technique would be the opposite. But I do not see that we should hold up the Howle on that account, I am just making the point because I would like to be ciear an it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I haw alrecy ruled, so I have called Cla'QIIe l ~ · Shall Clause 1 carey? MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, the adoption of this flaq is based on a falM pX811ise and I do not ewn ha- to refer to the 'wheraases' because what r - goinq to say is a .fact and whether or not it is in the 'whenases' really -does not JUke any difference .But what I am qoinq to J:;oy i;o that the Chairman of the l"laq ec-ittee, llll!lllbers ldiG spoke on the qowrmDI!!Int side of the House left the impression with this Bouse that twenty-six schedlll.ed public hearings -re held in this Pronnce. That is not true, it is false and misleading.

There were twenty-five scheduled meetings in this Province not twenty-six, twenty-five, one was a: non-scheduled meeting 1 and out of the twenty-five only twelve meetinqs were held .. Are bon. ;aembers awara of that? Thirteen meetings were not held for one reason or another. Thirteen meetinqs were not held either due to lack of 4516 --- ---·-------

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1730 so - 2 MR. S. NEARY: publicity that a hearing was taking place or lack of interest and the Committee members who visited these thirteen coii!IIIWlities decided to go around to so11111 of the schools. In some instances, they di.d not go to the schools, they just paclced her up and c- home again. lind the hon. the Premier sits there day in and day out and the bill in his name and tries to leave the impression with the mel!lbers of the House and the people of this Province md now he is going to pack up and go again.

Xenny Rcqers had a name in his song for people like the hon. qentleman,"yeller, yellern they call him. MR. L. THOMS: They had the movie on last ;~ight. MR. S. NEARY: No·, that was the gambler. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right MR. S. NEARY: Be packs her up again, old yelle~ is gone again. MR. L. THOMS: He is t%Ying not to take a gamble on this one. MR. 5 • NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is that the n1llllber of scheduled public head.ngs that we were told took place did not taka place. MR. G. WARREll: Right on. !!:.....!:. NE~Y: Only twelve actually took place.

And at these twel-voa hearings the majority of briefs,<Mlether they be oral or written, advocated either mtention of the Union Jack or the union Jack in a distinctive provincial flag. MR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chai%1111Ul. MR. CBAIRMJIN: A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MliRSHALL: (inaudible) reCillllllleDding the Oltion Jack has al•lldy been msolved by this ·House in second reading (inaudible) 4517 ~-------- - ---·· --~.,-- .. ...­ / /

May 22, 1980 ~ape No. 1730 SD - 3 MR. w. MARSHAI:oL: as shown in the

schedule will be the provincial flaq. Now, I refer Your Honour to Beauchense, paqe 230 first "The function of a comm.i ttee on a bill is to go through the text ·of the bill clause by clause and, if necessary, word by word, with a view to making such amendments to ' it as may seem likely to render it more generally aceeptable." And it refers to May, page 506 which will also refer Your Honour to the fact that in COIIIIIIittee that we cb not consider - MR. L. THOMS: You are using up the hon. member's ti-, that is all you are cbing. MR. W.

MARSHALL: I mean the point is, the House has already considered this matter, we are now sitting in a colllllittee, and the Collllllittee can not reconsider what the House has already decided. I refer aqain, Mr. Chairman, if Your Honour would like to take a note,to page 231, pareqraph 764 which says: "A committee is bound by the decision of the House, qiven on second readinq, in fa:vour of the principle of the bill, and should not, therefore, amend the bill in a manner dlllstrilcti w to this principle." MR. L. THOMS: we a.a not .-ndinq the bill. Who is trying to amend the bill? MR. w.

MARSHALL: T!w han. gentleman should Wldemtand that if you. are not allCIIfed to 111118Ild the bill frail that area, 4518 ,-,--

.May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1731 EL - 1 .MR. W. MARSHALL: you are not allowed either to debate it beca~e the debate has to be relevant. .MR. THOMS: That is right- That is right • That is what you are afraid of, debate. .MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should know I am · t:cying to bring some consistency . into the proceedings of the House instead of the flip-flops to which the hen. gentleman is accustomed. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. .MR. MARSHALL: 764, number 3. "The objects (also referred to as the principle or scope) of the bill are stated in its

long title, which should cover eve:cything contained in the bill as it was introduced. Amendments, however, are not necessarily limited by the title. An amendment which is outside the scope of the bill is out of order and cannot be entertained,unless a special 1nstruction has been given by the House to the CoiiiDiittee:" So, Mr .Chai:r:man, it seems to me to be c:cysW clear in this particular case, and I know the hon. gentlellleD now will get. up and they will .say you are trying to ~le the Committee. But, there is a mcdliaa operandi of car:cying on the business of the House.

The House has · al:ready - this House hu al:ready considered the bill, the principle of the bill 1 the reason for the !;ill and has enacted that this be the fl.ag. And the hon. gentleman is out of order and any debate is out of order when you get into the questions of whether or not the Union Jack or, for that -tter, aDY other design then the design before us should be in the flaq .! _- MR. CHAIRIIAN ( Butt) : To the point of order 1 the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 4519

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1731 EL - 2 MR. D. JAMn:SON: I am not casting any aspersions or any innuendos, I will leave that to the hon. the Leader of the Govern- ment in this House. But, surely we are on, as I understand it, Clause 1 and unless my ears, which I had examined last week and which were said to be in reasonably good condition, were wrong, the hon. the member for LaPoile (S. Neary) was talking about potential designs or different designs for flag&. Now, the first phase of this Clause 1, says the flag described and illustrated in the

schedule is adcpted as the flag of the Province. Now, it seems to me that surel.y goodness it is entirely appropriate, even with the citation which the hon. the House Leader has given, to discuss such things as the description and illustration of a flag. That seems to me to · be completely consistent with what is supposed to go on in the Committee stage. And I submit to Your Honor that the hon. member for LaPoile is completely in oroer in what he has been saying. MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) :: President of the <;:=ell. MR. MARSHALL: __ I _just draw issue with the hon.

Further to the point of order the hon. - with what the hen. the Leader of the Qppositicn has said and, you knew, the principle has been accepted by the House and to talk abaut other designs now is to contradict a decision made by ~e House. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : TO the point of oroer. I would rule that there is a legitimate point of oroer in one particular area of this. I have to refer yo_u~ _Standinq Orders, .6li"In the proceedings in COIIIIIli.ttee of the WbQ~Upon billa, the

preamble is first 'postponed• - the reason I ~ readinq this 1· I am leading u~ to rJrf reason for .rulinq as _ I_ did -"aDd then every .clause ccnsidered,preamble and title to be last COIUiidered .• • I . Now, the principle of the Bill, and I would suqgest the hen. member for LaPoile was getting into the principle of the bill which was dealt with in Second Reading. He was getting into that area. The design of the flag should be dealt with in this particular bill 4520

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1731 EL - 3 MR. CHAI.RMAN(Butt): we are now discussing .so - MR. NEARY: under clause 2 and not clause l, as Well, that will be fine. If vou want to di~po~~ of 1 and we h~va tha de.b•t.e or. 2, then I am quit .. preparea to __ do_that. MR. CHAIRMAI!I: Yes, well, for uniformity in Committee - MR. NEARY: As long as it is clearly understood, Mr. Chairman, that we are not going to be lllllZzled by the Government House Leader or by the Government. We are going to have our say on this bill whether holy Willy likes it or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Just for uniformity in Committee - Shall Clause l carry ? Carried. Shall clause 2 carry? The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman, I can have my go nov, I suppose. On the design. MR. NEARY: On the design. Well, the problem with this flag, Mr. Chairman, is the design. Nobody, but nobody but nobody in this Province likes that design and yet the government defies the people - MR. CARrER: I do , MR. 'l'HOMS' Yoa. a:e nabody. MR. NEARY: - except those crac:lcpots; a few crack- • pots r except a few little Muasolinis who sit on the government benches a few Hitlerites.

You would swear they were proteges of Hitler, the way theY a:re handling this situation. I have heard · the Premier described zec:ently as a pocket-size Adolf Hitler and 4521

May 22, 1980 Tape 1732 EC- l MR. S • NEAltl : :t would not be a bit surprised but ~. .... - _, ___ .. that is correct, the way that that gentl8111AJ1 is handling this bill. :t thouqnt we did away with Hitler in l939. :t thought we did away :with him, but here is Adolph now elllllrqing again .;. made a statement yesterdAy up on the Mainlud and we were not sura whether he was pleased or disappointed that the 'Noes' won the referendula in Quebec. MR. G. WARREN: Right on! MR.. s . NEARr: Mr. ~. apart from a. few Kusaolinia and Bitlerites, nobody but nobody is in favour of this design.

Every hearinq that was held - and there -re only twelve hearings, not twenty-au - at eft%Y hearinq that wu held, I "NOuld say that 99 per cent of those who a.ttended and -de an oral presentation or a presentation in writinq said that the Union Jack should be in a distinctive Newfoundland flaq or the Union Jack should be retained. That was c:ompletely ignored by the Ch&irmaD of the eo..ittH (Mr. J.Cartar) and by Mr. P;ratt. MR. G. IIARREllh started. MR. S. NEARr: they started. MR.. G. WARREN z Alii Hal. IIEIIBBR: MR. s. NEA1Il( I He blld hi8 lllind made up befor. he Dley hll4 their aindaJ .ada up before Rigtlt on!

Riqht on! Right on! (Inandillle) • Ro, Mr. OlaiXJI&J1, lliy Ulpression of why tha bon. qentleuD ch~d b.is lllind was that he could not stand the llitlerlike tactia, the cr~q and dafyinq the peop _le. Mll. 0. IUIIICXX!E 1 It was DOt accepted _. by the people. 'l!lat wu a stipulation in the r.C)Ul&tioDa. MR.. S. NEARr I 'l!le fifth - I bell.- it was the fifth, vu it not? - the fourth or fifth stipulation laid dolm by the Coaaittee was that this flaq had to be acceptable to the people. It is DOt acceptable to the people. Do hon. qantlt~~~~m understand that? :tt is not acceptable to the people. 4522 ..

~y 22, 1980 Tape 1732 EC - 2 MR. J. CARTERs Who said so? MR. S. NEARY: The people are saying so. MR. J. CARTER: Where:? MR. S • NEAR!' : You cannot go to church today, you cannot qo to the shopping centres, you cannot walk down the street, you cannot go down in the cafeteria for a coffee, you cannot wa.lk into this buildinq, you cannot qo out to get in your car but somebody is cominq Ill? to you and saying, 'For God's sake, will you try to be.at sc.a sense into the qove:mment and stop that foolish desiqn 1 that thing they call a flag, from going through the House. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. CbaiimaD, a point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : A point of oMitr, the bon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: '1'he bon. gantl811W1 is new in the area ot debatinq the principle of this bill - SoME RON • MEMBERS 1 MR. w-.·· MARSHALL: Oh, oh! -. whic:b is to adapt - . Ob, oh! - Mr. ~. which is the Whole purpose of the debate in the Bouse itllelt on second readinq, to adopt a flaq of this particular · deaiqn. What he is daiDq DOW is ent.rinq into debate on an i.aaua that hu already been decided by the House.

The purpose of the eo-ittee is to examine a bill claue by clause to see if any ~d!Mnts are neceaaary in order to «Jive full effect to the principle. But the principle beinq that this flaq duiqn be adapt8d, it is co.plet8ly out of order for the bon. gantl-.n. SOME Hc.l . MEMBERS 1 Oh, oh! MR. or~ LDSB s Jb:'. C'2Jai ~" 1 to . the point of order. MR..~- '1'o the point of order, the bon. the ~r for Terra Nova. MR. T. LOSII: Mr. c.l1ai.zluD, I have sat here listening with great interest to the m&lllber for La.Poile (Mr. s.

Neary) apeek on this particulaJ: clause, and aa the bon. the House Leader says , it i.a aboat the design. I have been aittinq here for however lonq the -..bar for LaPoile baa been speekinq and I. have not heard hila talk about 4523 --------- · ·-·--· ~ -· ---- -· ---·-

Hay 22, 1980 MR.. T. LD'SH : this particular flag. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. 'r. LUSH: Tape 1732 EC - 3 anything elsa but the design of Hear, hear! Ilia ra.arka were clirect and clear and COIIIpletely on the topic the whole t.U., Mr. Olainum. MR. G. l"LZGEr 1 No point of order, Mr. Cha.i.nlan. MR.. CIDURMAN (Butt) : I rule there is no point of order. Ralavancy ill vary clifficult to define in this particular C&J~e. In a bordarline aaae I 110uld rule that the hon. IIBIIIber has a right to contin~. MR. S • NEARr: The hon. the member for I.sPoile. Mr. Chairman, thank you very muc:h.

Well, anyway, the upshot of it all is thia, Mr. Ch&irman, that the people of this Province, the majority of people, I would suspect, including the CU&diu Legion, the Monarc:hiat Leaque, the L.O.A., the XDiqhts of ColUIIbus - you can tAlk about anybody - ordinary people 1 I believe 99. 9 per ceDt of the people, if - a,re goinq to hava a flaq ttwy would like to see a clistinctive N•fowdland nag. I do not think there is aDf U'VQM~lt ~t that. But this flag they do DOt want. 1hey want to see s~thizlq on a distinctive NewfoUIIdl&Dd nag that identifies it with N-foundhnd. 4524 ·-----· ·- --· -:-~-- ... ~-- - -··

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1733 GH-1 MR. NEARY: Now, is that asking too much of a man who the people put their t..>-ust and faith in last June, is that asking too much of that man? Is he so arrogant and does he have so much contempt for tfie people that every time we talk about ·the flag he gathers up his papers and runs out of the House? Is that the reward to the -people of ~~is Province for giving that gentleman a majority so that he could govern this government? Is ~~at the reward? Is that the way the people are going to !')e treated? MR. WARREN: That is his design. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) Order, please!

The hon. member is going to come around to the design of the flag here? MR. NEARY: Well, I was hoping - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohJ MR. CHAIRMAN: You are prefacing your remarks and - MR. NEARY: - the point that I am making. MR. CHAIRMAN: - coming to the desi.gn of the fla<;rl' MR. MORGAN: He is putting on a show fo~ tile galleries, that is all. - . MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am putting on no show for the galleries, and I put on no shew for the galleries this morning when we ware told over at the Public Accounts Committee that the hon. gentleman had one of his hacks call .down to Mr.

Devine to put his name on the list for the leadership in a poll that was paid for - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohJ MR. CHA!mmN: MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: SOME !!ON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN: . _order, please! - from the p~lic treasury. Order, please! The hon. member That was no show. - is totally irrelevant now. That was no show and there is no show now. Oh, ohl Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! The han. member on clause 2. MR. NEARY: "Put me name on the list", says the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan).

"See hew I will fare up against 'Frankie' and 'Brian'". 4525 '----· ·-,.----"-

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1733 GH-2 MR. MORGAN: Show off for the gallery at bit more now (inaudible}. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Jruttl Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chai:cnan, there is no showing off to the galleries. I am quite sincere about this. MR. MORGAN: You are a hang-up. MR. THOMS: Not as much as you did (inaudible). MR. NEARY:' What do they call hilll in the press? Mr. Dress-up, Mr. Dress-up, and if Mr. Dress-up will only restrain himself he mi'ght learn something. Mr. Dress-up now is being dealt with by the Public Accounts Committee and everybody else in this Province MR. WARREN: Maybe he will discover a flag. MR.

NEARY: - and he will be dealt with by the people now over this flag in due course. But, Mr. Chairman, the people want something in the design of the flag that can identify it with Newfoundland, that is. distinctly Newfoundlandia, and we do not have it, we do not ha'll'e it. That could be any one of a number of things. I have my own preference. I am not going to say what it is. Personally - MR. BARRY: I would l:!.ke to know (inaudible). MR.-NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. BARRY: You are speaking to the design now? MR. NEARY: Yes, we are talking to the de sian . ..... MR..

MORGAN: He is just playing politics with the flag, that is all he is doing. MR. NEAR!': Mr. Chaizman, you know that is unparliamentary. Would you ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw it, Mr. Chairman? _, MR. CHAIRMAN: I did not hear hilll. MR. NEARY: He is playing politics wi~ the flag, he says. You cannot question ~rs' motives in this House, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. I did not hear what the hon. member said. I was listening to the hon. member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, if hon. members think it is funny and they think that they are going to ram this ~g 4526 -------- ---·-- - ·-- --.... ...... -

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1733 GH..,..J MR. NEARY: through, I have news for them. I will stay here till I drop down on the floor of this House, and I do not care if we are here till Christmas Eve, it does not make any difference t;o me. But this flag will never fly over this Province unless it is changed, unless the design is cfianged. And if it is put on the flagpoles :j:n front of the provincial buildings, it will be hauled down, it will be hauled down. It wtll be hauled down by the next goverl'lll1eilt.

I guarantee. you this, tha,t i£ I am fortunate enough. to be returned to this House on the govexmuent side, that rag will come down. It will be hauled down off the fla~les of this Province. MR. JAMIESON: MR. CHAIRMAN: (l3:utt) Opposi:tion. MR. JAl'IIESON: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Point of order, the hon. Leader of the Members on the opposite side are always fond o;f saying that a ~r has to be listened to in silence, and surely the ·rule applies to members on both sides of this House.

Thi:s is an :i:JDportant·-matter, it is a matter, r tillnk, on which members feel very dee~ly, and r suggest that we would get on with the business of the people ItiUCh: better if the hon. members opposite coul.d .restrain thelvselve.s and le.t tne hen. memeer for Lapoile ~. Nearyl have his appropriate · say in this Itlat:ter. MR.~: I concur with the hen. the Leader of · the Oppos:L"'tion, and I would ask. that members on both sides of the. Houae. allov the hon. member to proceed and · Oe. . heard in silence. The . bon. 1lleitlher for Lapoile.. l'llt. MEA!!X': Mr.

Chai:rman, -I am making a last-ditch. appeal - :!:" know- other -members <H"e going to speak on this and I will cCIIIIe back at it again. I am only allowed ten minutes this t~ round. I" will h.aye aaother ten IDinutes later · on .and anothe.r ten minutes and I w:Ul go on and on and on -but I a111 going . to -make. . a last-ditch aPJ?e.al. ~-~; tliirty IIWmtes. Order, pleaseJ The hon, IIJe1Uber is allowed ~- NE'A:R,Y: r am allowed . th:i:!;-ty Itlinutes( We.ll, r do not w.ant to take thirty Itlinutes. r think that '<!Ould be. alfusi:ng 4527 ----- ------- --

May 22, 1980 . Tape No. 1733 GH-4 MR. NEARY: my privilege in the House, Mr. ChiUl:lllan. I could go on for a week. Your Honour k;nows that. We already said we. have no intention of filibustering, althDugh., Mr. Chai:cna:n, I have grave doubts of whether or not we should not just try to stall this t:Jiing, stall it for another few weeks. 4528 ~~~--"":----~- ----·-- ··--- -- - - ---- ----- ----- --- ·· ~-~---.

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1734 MB - 1 MR. S. NEARY: The attitude seems to be that if we stall it much longer the public will turn against us because they will say we are filibustering and we are not getting on with the other business of the Province. Well, tha~ would be wrong. That would not be true, Mr. Chairman, it would not be true. The govern- IIIIIJlt calls the order of business in this House and not the Opilosition. And it is the government who keep calling this Bill and forcing the Opposition to debate it. The government could have called something in coanection with unemployment.

The government could have called something in connection with the cost of living. The govem.ent could have called something in connection with electricity rates or the high cost of gasoline or anything, any other problem. MR. W. MARSHJ\LL: You were asking -the government to call it. MR. S. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, the only reason I was asking the hon. gentleman to call it was because he had already indicated to my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Jami.esDn), that this Bill waa going to come up for Committee of the Whole and the hon. gentleman· was trying to, in his cute little way, trying to stall it hoping the Canadian Legion would leave the gallery. And that is why I wanted it called earlier. I could not care less if it was ever called. And if the hon. gentl-an wants to postpone it for six months he has my blessing. But.

I am going to make one last-ditch appeal to the P:r:maier and to the members on the governaent benches to come to their senses, if they have any senses left, and that is to - it will only take a short while to do it;-: cbanga the design of the flag, change it, put something in it that represents Newfoundland. Put soMthing in it that we can identify and associate with the great heritage and the great traditiona we have in this Province. Now, that is a fair request is it uot, Mr. ~-~ That is a fa.U; request. We haw been making it now for the last three weeks. It has been falling on• deaf ears MR. D.

HOLLB'l"l': The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) would like that. He would like to have- something distinctiw in it. MR. NEARY: Suze he woul.d like to hAW~ - I am sure e~ry meaber of this House, i~ they were not toeing the party line and ----- -- - --·- ·-- .. 4529 ""' ...--.....,-,--··

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 17~4 MB - 2 MR. S. NEARY: trying to cling on to their jobs with their finger nails and trying to stay in the Cabinet and scrape a;nd scraub their way into the Cabinet like the· melllher for Bay of Islands (Mr. WOodzQw). If they wem not trying to cla that, Mr.

Chairman- Outside of this House you talk to tham and they turn up their nose and 3ay, "Oh, that flag stinks." I can point my finger at tnembers . right now, sitting on the govemment benches, who have said outside the House, "My God, I wish we could persuade 'Marshall 'and 'Peckfotd' to change that flag." They are the ones who -are ramming it through. The Premier wants to make his marlt in history with this flag and he thinks this is the way to do it, show the people he is decisive. Them are times to be decisive. Them are times to show that you are in command and in control.

But this is not the way to do it, by defying the people. The government have been defying the people now for the last thme weeks. ;r am suzprised and amazed, Mr. Chainnan, that 10,000 people have not gathered out in front ot" Confederation Building. I mmember one ti- crosbie advocated civil disobedience in this Province, John ~&bie did. I would not go that far. I would certainly rec:o-nd peaceful demonstzations. I would like to come up here tomorrow, and if the hon. gentleman think' this Bill is going to go through this afternoon,or tomorrow afternoon, or Monda.y aftemoon, then I have n-s for him.

We should stall it long enough to give tbe people a chance to organize and gather out in f:tont of Confedera.tion Building, 10,000 strong, that is what I would like to see out there. Bec:a.use that is the ouly langua.ge this crowd understands. Hit thea where it hurts 111011t, a;t the polls, in the ballot box. Tha.t is the only thing tha.t will get thea to ba.ck fll.tlay froa that foolish design that they have brau.qht in, Mr. Cha..Uman. AN HON. MEMBER: A petition (inaudible) MR. 0. BOLLE'l"l' : That is right. They CaJD8 in the other day with a petition, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) had 8,000 names 4530 - ~·~ -•---+·--· ·----·-- ·-

May 22, 1980 MR. S. NEAM: by the - DR. 3. <DLLINS: HR. S. NEARY: HR. CHAIBMJIN: (Blltt) Ta~~~J No. 1734 MB- 3 he said on a petition.that was o:r:qanized Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Oh, heze is uhe blue blood himself. Point of order. 4531 · ~··-- -;r--- •c----:"'-

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1735 IB-1 MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): The hon. Minister of ~inance. DR.. COLLINS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition a moment ago asked us not to interject. So we cannot point out irrelevance by interjection and I certainly follow your ruling on that. Therefore,we have to rise to our feet when the hon. member is being irrelevant to the clause under discussion. Petitions and so on and so forth and other extraneous matters the hon. member has brought up have nothing to do with the clause under consideration.

So I bring it as a point of order that the hon. member is being totally irrelevant to the clause under discussion. MR. !iANCOCK: You are getting childish in your old age. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a legitimate point of order in this case. I rule there is a point of order and I would ask the . han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to confine his remarks to clause 2 which deals with the design of the flag. The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman is obviously prematurely senile, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, the only way this design can be changed to get something into it that you can identify with Newfoundland -is for 10,000 Newfoundlanders to stand out in front of that building and carry out a peaceful demonstration. I do not mean to smash the windows out of the place or turn her upside down or smash in the doors but in a peaceful demonstration. DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: The hon. member is now advocating demonstrations and so on and so forth that has nothing whatever to do with Clause 2.

Clause 2 states, "The flag described and illustrated in the

Schedule is adopted as the flag of the Province". It has nothing to do with demonstrations, nothing to do with breaking windows, nothing to do with peaceful or non-peaceful.- demonstrations. And I would ask 4532 ~-- --- · -~------ _ __ """'_ ,_ ~ - ....... , , "f' ;:'" - ~~

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1735 IB-2 DR. COLLINS: Your Honour to keep the member relevant to the clause under discussion. MR. JAMIESON: MR. CHAIRMAN (BU'l"l'): Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. Yes, to the point of order, the hon. Mr. Chairman, surely, once again, I have to make. the ,POint that it is totally relevant to say that the public should make their views known with regard to the design. We are talking about the design.

Now, whether he talks about sending in petitions or whether he talks about people appearing, whatever the issue, the formula that he is speaking of it is relevant because we are talking about ways in which the hon. member believes that the design can be changed. And we are on this clause and I suggest that that is relevancy. In any event I think we are taking up unnecessary time 1~ith these interventions. MR. ANDREWS: To the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, the hon. member for Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir. MR. ANDREWS: I would like to agree with the Minister of Finance that - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: order, please! MR. ANDREWS: I would like to point out for the past three weeks - I would like to know where you are going to find 10,000 people - for the past three weeks I have not received one letter or one telephone call from my district - MR. CHAIRMAN: Ckder, please! MR. .!\NDREWS: - except for two telegrams - MR. CHAIRMAN: order, please! MR. ANDREWS: - from the Royal Canadian Legion - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. ANDREWS: - commenting on the design of the flag. 4533 ------------. ·--,---~ ...... ---.1'.j..7---,---.~-~~ ·- ,..._ -·· _., ...

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1735 IB-3 MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member's remarks are not relevant to the po~nt of order. I have heard enough - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) to the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, to the point of order I have heard enough to rule on the point of order. I thank all hon. members for their contribution. I will now rule on the point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! Relevancy is very hard to define and in a borderline case the hon. member speaking will be given the benefit of the doubt.

But once again I would ask him to confine his remarks to the design as outlined in Clause 2. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Before I recognize the hon. m~r the hon. the Speaker would like to come in to announce the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! order, please! It being five o'clock I can inform the House that I have received notice of three motions for debate at five-thirty when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. Notice given by the hon. member for Bonavista NOrth (Mr. Stirling) arising out of a question asked the hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) •. And the subject matter is the Greenspond causeway. Notice given by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) arising out of a question asked the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor) . And the subject matter is Windsor's need for an industrial park. And the final one, notice given by the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 4534 - .. ~-.·---,~---- •·----...-,_.·t-.- ·•• -·v -~.~""'--........,..~~·~,- ~~~ ~-~~:

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1735 IB-4 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : O:rder, please! The final one, notice given by the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) arising out of a qoestion ~sked the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) , ·And the subject JQatter is the provincial government's policy of hiring workers from the Province for offshore employment. 4535

Hay 22, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): :-IR. S. NEARY: much time I have left? MR. CHAIR.l-IAN: MR. S. NEARY: Tape No. 1736 . DW - 1 The hon. member for LaPoile. Could I ask Your Honour how The hon. member has nine minutes. Well, in that nine minutes I will try to lay out as relevantly as I can what I am pro 9 posing. I am proposing that the government accept peace- fully; use a little common sense and change the design, put somethinq in the design to identify it with Newfoundland. Now, if the government is not prepared to accept that in this House then, Mr.

Chairman, the o~ly way it can be done is for the people to rise up and get the design changed. If they want to get,for instance, a caribou, if they want to get the pitcher plant in it, if they want to get something else in it, this or that in it the only way to do it is to DR. J. COLLINS: MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: the design was accepted. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order, the hon. Mr. Chairman, in second reading It was accepted by this House on a free vote and was passed.

To now question the design is to go over the same debate again and I suggest that it is not only irrelevant but it is totally out of order according to the rules under which this House has governed itself for generations. And if hon. members opposite do not understand the rules of the House I suggest that there is a means whereby they can increase their knowledge. MR. D. JAMIESON:. To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, the hen. Leader of the Opposition. 4536

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1736 DW - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: Well, I merely wish to recall your own remarks, Mr. Chairman, of less than an hour ago in which,when the comments were being made with regard to the design,the Chair ruled that"this was the clause under which the design was quite appropriately the subject for debate and discussion in this House. MR. CHAIRMAN . (Butt): ! would like to point out to al~ hon. members that it is in order to discuss other desiqns so long as the principle -and that is that a flag be adopted for the Province-is not debated. The hon. member for LaPoile. ~IR. S.

NEARY: Your Honour is right on target. If<the hon. gentleman does not know the rules I suggest he go out and take some kind of a course. MR. HANCOCK: He does not know much about budgeting. MR. S. NEARY: It is not the st. John's cock- tail set that runs this House. MR. L. THOMS: (Inaudible) and finance while you are at it. ~!R. CHAIR!•fAN: order, please! DR. J. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. ~· CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. member is clearly being irrelevant. Whether there is a cocktail circuit in the city of St.

John's or not is totally irrelevant to clause ~ which states, 'The flag described and illustrated in the

schedule is adopted as the flag of the Province'. And I suggest that discussing the presence or absence of a cocktail circuit in St, John's is totally irrelvant and I would draw that to Your Honour's attention. 4537 .. -~~---- ·--

... ,:. .. -.-,~,.= ... ·- ~lay 22, 1980 Tape No. 1736 DW - 3 ~R. CHAIRMAN (Butt): I would point out to the hon. member that these last remarks are not relevant to the design of the flag. MR. S. NEARY: I have no doubt about that at all , You ~ Honour, But I believe , ~r.

Chairman, that if people want the design changed, if they want to aet something in the design to identify it with Newfoundland and Newfound~ landers,then I would submit that the people are going to have to rise up because government are taking consolation, are taking comfort in the fact - and I have heard members on~the government side say this and I have heard them say it in the House and outside the House,that the only one that wants this flag changed is the Royal Canadian Legion. That is n~t true. That is an insult to the intelligence of t;he members of the Royal Canadian Legion. It is not true.

Young and old, middle-aged, non-conformist and conformist alike want this flag changed, school children want it changed, mostly yo.ung people, mostly school children want it changed. And so the only wa~~it can be changed - I bet you if we were to poll everybody inside the confines of this House at this moment and ask them if they would prefer this flag or a flag with something in it to identify it with Newfoundland, I will bet you 85 per ceDf of thei 'People in the confines of this House would say they want something that is distinctive, that you can relate to Newfoundland.

And so the noaly way it can be done, Mr. Chairman, unless the Premier now will come to his senses and get up and peacefully volunteer to amend this flag to put something in it that you can rel~~e to Newfound- land and to Newfoundlanders, unless the Premier is prepared to do that,because obviously the hon. members are 4538

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1737 RA - 1 MR. S. NEARY: rallying around their leader in this matter, they are rallying around their leader and they are rallying around this flag and that is the biggest blunder they ever made in their lives. They will regret it and they will be sorry for it.

But the only way apart from that, is the Premier just admitting he is wrong, be man enough to admit he is wrong not attltlll)t to be a dictator and copy Hitler, not do that,admit he is wrong man fashion.If he is not prepared to do that than th~ only other way we can get this design scrapped or changed is for the people to rise up.And nothing would give me greater pleasure than to come in here tomorrow and see 10,000 Newfoundlanders out in front of this building, young and old 1 male and female saying to this government " We elected you, we gave you a majority, do not treat us this way", in a peaceful demgnstration.

I would not be like Crosbie and advocate civil disobedience and that is why I think we should hold her dawn on this bill until the people have an opportunity to mgbilize their forces and come up to Confederation Building in bWiea and cars and trucks and with petitions, with letters and ask to see their members and invite the Premier tO come out front and have a few words. 'l'hat is the only vay, Mr. Chai~, that we are going to get; any changes made in this design. Now, I hcipe I will have an opportunity to have a few mgre words.

But I do not think - we only have another twenty minutes to go this afternoon -·I do not think this is going to paas this afternoon nor tOIIICil:%0W moraing either, not if I have anything to do with it. MR. CHAIRMAN (Btrrl') : The han. member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARrER: Mr. Chairman, the member for LaPoile (Mr.S. Neary) is a hard act to follow. He is both our greatest asset and our greatest liailility. He is our greates& asset because he is an attraction, I suppose, to this House.

Just this afternoon some people in the elevator said •oh, very disappointing in the House this afternoon the member for LaPoile was not there, it was all too quite, no ructions•. MR. G. WARREN: Right on I Right on I MR. J. CARrER: But I nearly said'look, he will be along ,.- later wby do you not stay on because he will no doubt put on a show for you' • 4539

May 22, 1980 Tape No. 1737 RA - 2 MR. J. CARrER ' : Now, during all the hearings that we had there was an extraordinary am:~unt of apathy, people did not seem to care, did not seem to care enough to turn out to the hearings.

This was in part made up fer by quite a number of letters and designs that were submitted.And,in fact,as I have already said,there were so many designs submitted that they began to repeat themselves, so that the ones that were submitted towards the end of April were the same as the ones that had been submitted early in January. so we honestly felt that we had received a good cross -section of public opinion. A lot of people, by the same token, said Ui.me and time again, "Look, a new flage is not our ~in concern".

Now, if there is such a ground swell against this particular design,then why is it that I have had less than twelve telephone calls. My name is in the phone book, I observe regular hours, I am there at mealtimes - my telephone- I have got three calls from my district a