Manitoba Hansard — 11 February 1960 (Sitting 18A, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-18a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

;- Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba. DEBATES and PRO CEE DlNGS Volume "N No. 18A Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison February 11, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature' Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen,s Pl'inte'r for the Province of Manitoba, Winnip�g

DAILY INDEX Thursday, February 11, 1960, 8:00P.M. Committee of Supply: Education: Administration .•. •. ••••• ..•..•.•.• ..•.. •••. , . • • • 459 The Progressive Index of Votes and Proceedings will be published on Tuesdays on the last page. 1.."

THE LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8: 00 o'clock, Thursday, February 11th, 1960 MR. SCHREYER: I was making my remarks with regard to the matter of the department itself and the morale within the department. I would like to say by way of finality before I go on to some other point, that I do not believe that this is the case myself, I merely poi.nt out to the Minister that I've had a surprisingly large number of people make some reference to this and I merely wish to bring this to his attention. Before I go on to other aspects of the estimates of Education ••.... MR.

McLEAN: Would the honourable member care to indicate the source of his information? MR. SCHREYER: As I said, Mr. Chairman, the source was the public at large. People whom I had met during the course of the last five or six months particularly since the marking of the examinations during the summer months and the difficulties with the computer machine. Before I go on to any other aspects , Mr. Chairman, I would like to make some reference to the controversy which seemed to arise here when the Honourable the Member for St. John's was speaking.

He made mention of the fact that in West Kildonan as in other areas which he had mentione d, the mill rate for educational purposes had increased and someone challenged him - I believe it was the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre -- and since that time the Honour able Member for St. John's has asked me to once again repeat that the mill rate as regards edu cation has indeed increased in West Kildonan as well as others , and in West Kildonan to the amount of some 2. 4 mills. Mr.

Chairman, reading over Hansard of last Session I happen to notice the statement made by the Honourable the Mini ster of Ed ucation to the effect that, and I quote: ''We will have some thing to say about the full report of the Royal Commission on Education by next sessi on.

" Now of course I must concede that today in making his statement the Honourable Minister did have some thing to say about the report but I could not help but feel , as indeed I'm sure quite a few of the membe rs on this side felt, that it was indeed a very brief and certain ly not a very profound type of statement insofar as the comments on the report of the Royal Commission were concerned. I also thought that the Minister should have made some mention in his statement about his own hopes and his aspirations as regards his department and the work of his department.

We all, of course, agree that education is so important , and that it would not be expecting too much of the Honourable Minister if he would have come out with some statement as regards what he thinks the philosophy of educ ation is, and as to what his ideas are pertaining to where education should be taking the youth of this province. I, of course, realize just as well as anybody else in this Chamber that the Minister is a very competent administra tor, but as I said before, he should have made some mention about curricula. He should have made some mention about his ideas on the philosophy of education.

I, like many others , was very surprised when the present admini stration saw fit to raise the fees of those wishing to attend the Teacher Training insti tute s in this province. It seems rather incongruent to raise fees and not to tighten up on standards. It seems rather , and I think the Honourable Member for Carillon was speaki.D.g about lions and lions tails today -- here too the analogy of being lead by the tail as it were , applies to the prese nt administration.

It is of no particular comfort, I dares ay, when one looks at the report of the Department of Ed ucation for the year ending 1959 - June, to see that of the total of 723 student s attending our Teacher Training Institute s that 430 out of the 723 were attending -- or had entered with less than a complete Grade XII. We all realize the importance of raising teachers' standards and yet this adminis tration had the opportunity of doing just that, but instead of raising standards they saw fit to in crease fees. And I do not see how the two tie in.

I think that we in this Assem bly should also be quite uncomfortable of the trend in education today as regards the ratio of those going on to university and those that leave. Our present system of educati on, Mr. Chairman, is geared in such a way that all who attend our high schools are being prepared -- being prepared as it were for university. But yet it is an undeniable fact that 80% -- only 20% rather, only 20% of our student population at high sc hool level go on to university.

And yet the vast majority of students in our high schools are being prepared for univers ity entrance , and they are not being prepared for work in the technical and vocational line s. I think -- and I said this last year-- Mr. Chair man, that although we have made great strides, and surely WP. shouldn 't take this away from any February 11th, 1960 Page 459

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd.) ..•.. government -- we have made great strides in this nation and in this province in education, but we are still desperately far behind when it comes. to the providing of technological vocational training. We are desperately short of craftsmen and tradesmen. I know that we have provision here in the estimates for vocational technical schools but it is woefully inadequate and, of course, we cannot blame this administration too much yet because this is a matter which has to be stepped up year by year gradually.

We can't expect to dump several million dollars in there at once and expect the situation to right itself over night. But I would suggest to the Minister that there is an imbalance here in the ratio; there's an imbal ance in matriculation courses as compared with the technical and vocational courses. I might also say that we in Manitoba especially, especially this province, is dragging its heels and is lagging when it comes to special education, and what I have in mind specifically is adult educa tion, physical fitness and so on.

I daresay that in this province if there were a properly set up adult education program that we would have about 6, 000 people -- statistically I couldn't be far out -- we would have about 6, 000 people who would as a matter of fact take courses, evening courses. and so .. -on, in academic subjects, non-academic subjects and so on. Outside of Greater Winnipeg the adult education program in this province is "dead"; and to coin a phrase used by the Honourable the Leader of the Government, "it's as dead as the dodo", and that's pretty dead.

Something should be done, I'm not particularly belabouring the government on this but so far there's no evidence of action. Physical fitness could well come in here too, Mr. Chairman. I think that to make a program of physical fitness and adult education, and perhaps you coUld com bine the two -- correlate them, integrate them -- that a good starting off step would be to appropriate or allocate about a quarter of a million dollars towards this end. Not this year of course, there's always the next year. But definitely we should get moving on these two aspects.

Now I realize that in this province we do have a .semblance of an adult education program. It's under the auspices of the University of Manitoba, but I contend, and I submit, that the program could better be handled under the purview or under the jurisdiction of the Department of Educa tion itself, because the greater amount of interest in adult education among adults is at the high school level of instruction. And so I do not see why it should be under the University's control.

And then too, I would like to point out to the Honourable Minister that Manitoba should not be particularly proud with regard to educational services for retarded children and the handi capped. I would say that on the basis of our present school- age child population that there should be approximately 90 classrooms in operation in this province to take care of those children who are in some way or another in need of special educational facilities and attention. Mentally re tarded children outside of Greater Winnipeg have to b€l very retarded before anything out of the ordinary is done.

And I know, and speaking as a school teacher that in a small town of about 2, 000 people, the school polulation could be in the vicinity of 600 and out of those 600 you could expect about 20 -- 15 to 20 to be retarded to the point where they are not receiving any benefit or value whatsoever in attending classes in an ordinary classroom.

But yet there they are, and I think that we as legislators have a responsibility to these children and to the parents of these children to take some steps to make sure that at least if they're going to put in time in school that they should put it in and receive something out of it. I think that a lot of these retarded children could have themselves developed by education, but not by ordinary education, Mr. Chairman. And this too requires serious attention and soul searching on behalf of all of the members in this Assembly.

Well now having expounded some of my ideas, some of which might not be too palatable or taken too seriously by some of you, I would like to turn to the financial aspect of educ ation, and, of course, this is a topic of considerable controversy at all times in this Chamber. And I would like to say at the very outset that we should not criticize this administration too much because I doubt whether any political group in this province could have done a better job. (Interjection). I doubt it.

That is not to say, of course, that we of the CCF would have done a worse job had we been in control of government, but I feel that the reorganization in education which took place not very long ago was very much needed and very long in coming. It was a hard thing to convince the people of mainly because of opposition to it by a good many of the Liberal people or office seekers in this province.

I feel convinced that some --well I know quite a few Liberals who were talking against it and maintained that for a long time -- of course there were some of the Liberal group who advocated it and who worked very hard -- but where did the opposition come from? It was Page 460 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd.) ••..• organized opposition, I think. I'm prepared to say that in some cases it was organized opposition. However, there's one point which I think this government does stand guilty of and that is this oft repeated point that promise was made that there would be no increase in tax on real property. This should not have been said but it was.

And I think we'll do just as well to say it once or twice again and then leave the matter because I think the Government is almost ready to concede now that they are indeed guilty of this one mistake in selling this program, and surely everyone is entitled to a mistake. There's no disputing the fact that in my area the tax on real estate as a result of increased education expenditures has climbed. I have here evidence --I've copied the evidence down I should say-- to the effect that here's an individual living in the municipality of St.

Clements, living in the school division of Agassiz and his school taxes -- he has incidentally 330 acres of land - his school taxes increased by $163 in the course of one year. That's an increase of $163. Now of course, a portion of this increase in school tax is because of the fact that a public school, that is the elementary school was built- a new one. But comparing the mill rates and so on at the secondary level it was found that a substantial part of this increase of $163 was due to the increased cost of education at the secon dary level. Now of course we all expected somewhat of an increase.

This individual was a little bit perturbed only because of the magnitude of the increase, Mr. Chairman, not because of the increase itself. MR. CORBETT: Have you the figures of what his taxes were the year before and this year? MR. SCHREYER: Yes, in 1958 his taxes were $480, and in 1959 his taxes were $606. (Interjection). No I haven't, but I'm quite prepared to stand behind what I have said.

I also wish to raise for the information of the House some information which I received from the Agassiz school division board-- at least one of its members, and that is that in the considered opinion of this division tru�tee he felt that the government grant as regard admini strative costs in the division was inadequate because, as he told me, the government grant is percentagewise up to a maximum of $5,000. And I wish to inform the Minister that the admini stration costs in Agassiz school division -- their budget -- the administration costs are going to be $22,000.

Now that's quite a discrepancy-- $5,000 and $22,000. Perhaps one of the reasons for the great administrative costs here is the fact that the division board must deal with 74 elementary school boards, 12 municipalities, and this is no mean task. Perhaps the Honour able Member for Selkirk will be dealing with education by way of general remarks later on, I don't know, but I do know that he is aware of the situation in Lord Selkirk division and Agassiz for that matter.

And I feel that because of the multiplicity of elementary school districts, and this is more personal opinion than anything else, that because of the multiplicity of elementary local school districts that perhaps now that we have achieved school division organization we can look forward, plan ahead, with a view to thinking of the implementation of the larger area set up. I think that this would not be just wishful thinking or pie in the sky dreaming, but it is something which we should give some consideration to.

It's the setup that is, or the organiza tional setup that we have in Saskatchewan and Alberta and some of the States of the US and certainly I think that we could gain by thinking about it ourselves. A MEMBER: And Dauphin, Manitoba. MR. SCHREYER: And Dauphin, Manitoba, yes. Mr. Chairman, I, as a school teacher would be remiss if I sat down without saying something about the feeling of a good many school teachers whom I work with and know. The feeling they have towards the things that are trans piring in education and their fears with regard to some of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on education.

For one thing, I needn't expand too much on the old-- I shouldn't say old, but I shouldn't expand too much on the bugbear-- at least many teachers feel that it is a bugbear; namely, merit rating -- because the Minister dealt with it at some length this afternoon. I am rather glad not only as a teacher but for. all the teachers, rather glad that the committee set up to study this matter has handed down a report such as it has. I feel that the report is well considered, especially in view of the fact that merit rating has not shown itself to be a practical thing no matter where it has been tried.

I've taken the tbne to read the reports of several committees in the United States that were set up to study the matter of merit rating and not one of them came up with any tangible satisfactory solution. As a matter of fact;-one committee came up with the recommendation, or with the. conclusion rather, that the best method of merit rating teachers was to have this done by the children themselves. And if this February 11th, 1960 Page 461

(Mr. Schreyer, cont' d.) •.•.• is to be taken seriously, it certainly seems to be foreboding of ill days ahead for the teachers • . To sum it up rather in a nutshell, Mr. Chairman, it would seem that merit rating is some what the same as" belling the cat". Everyone wants to bell the cat including the Member fo � Carillon, but nobody wants to do the actual job themselves, because it's just not too practical or possible. Then too, teachers view with grave concern the recommendation that principals be separated from teachers.

Now this might be all very well and good for the school trustees, and perhaps there's a great deal to be said for their argument, but there are so many ramifications when one considers the separation of principal from teachers that it just makes one sit back and think. For one thing, if a principal is to be separated that would mean that he could not be classified as a teacher; it would damage the relationship between teacher and principal.

If the principal could not be classifie d as a teacher any longer that would mean that he would have to surrender his teacher's card, and according to the Public Schools' Act only teachers can dis cipline children, which would mean then that principals would not be able to discipline them. And we would have to take quite a bit of time out here to amend certain sections of the Schools' Act. Mr.

Chairman, no doubt I could carry on and bore all of you with more ramblings but I do not intend to speak at any great -- longer length here now, except to say to the Honourable Mini ster that in view of what the Honourable the Premier has said today, namely, that we aren't very gruelling in our deliberations and in our cross-examining here, that I would serve notice to him that as far as a good number of us iD. this group are concerned we shall try not to be pansies and we shall try to give him a good cross-examination. MR. T. P. ffiLLHOUSE, Q.

C. (Selkirk): My young friend has drawn me into the fray. (Interjection) I didn't preface my remarks. By way of general remarks I don't think it would be quite fair at this stage in the operation of the larger school divisions to make any comparison between the present costs on a six-month basis and on the costs of the operation of the old units on the old basis. I don't think we have sufficient statistical information upon which to base a logical or fair comparison.

Although I can agree with my young friend in saying this; that I believe that in the rural areas generally speaking, the taxes have gone tlp ; but in the urban areas there has been a slight tendency for the taxes to go down. But as I say, I would not like to criticize the new division system on a comparative basis of costs until I was furnished with sufficient information and sufficient statistics upon which to make a fair, reliable and logical comparison. A MEMBER: Where have the taxes gone down? . MR. HILLHOUSE: They have slightly in the town of Selkirk in some instances-- they have gone down slightly.

But in the rural parts they have gone up. Now I don't want to make any criticism out of that for the simple reason that I'd have to ascertain what services were previous ly given in the rural parts and what services are given now. And since we're dealing with a matter of education which I've always felt should be kept out of the realm of politics, let's try to be fair about it. Now I believe, Mr. Chairman, that every child in Manitoba is entitled to an education. And I believe that every child of Manitoba should be educated to the full extent of that child's potentialities. (Hear!

Hear!) But unfortunately in the Province of Manitoba today that golden rule does not apply. Last summer I had occasion to visit the Mulvey School in the City of Winhlpeg. I was there for the better part of an hour and during the time I was there I watched a teacher, Mrs. McQuillan who is a speech therapist, giving speech therapy to about eight children between the ages of six and twelve. Children who are hard of hearing - they were not profoundly deaf but had such an impairment of hearing· that in some instances that impairment was not discovered by their parents until they were 5, 6 and 7 years of age.

That teacher had to teach those children how to speak, and I never, in all my life, saw such a sincere, devoted and dedicated person as Mrs. McQuillan. It was amazing to me the way she was bringing these children along.

Now, unfortunately, these children will only be able to perhaps get a grade 1 and 2 education for the simple reason that they should be placed in classes, special ungraded classes with speech therapists, because the difficulty in teaching these children is not in teach ing them how to say concrete things, the diff iculty lies in conveying to them abstract thoughts, and for that reason they require special classes of instructions in classes of not more than eight · children. It's got to be a highly concentrated type of instruction. Now those classes are being Page 452 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd.) •••.• conducted by the City of Winnipeg School Board and the City of Winnipeg is to be commended on the wonderful work that it is doing in that direction. Unfort unately, the Province of Manitoba does not -conduct any such class. Now let me explain. These children are not profoundly deaf, they only have an impairment in hearing. It's a severe impair ment of hearing and in some instances mechanical means can bring their hearing up so that they are able to be taught, but in: the Province of Manitoba we have no such instruction for these children.

I'm advised that in the Greater Winnipeg area there are at least 25 of these children. These children are not retarded; they have a pretty high IQ; they're all educable. And my suggestion to the Minister is this, that an immediate survey should be made in the Greater Winnipeg area for the purpose of determining how many of these children are in this district. I'm advised by Mrs. McQuillan that any good grade school teacher with a special course of in struction can teach those children.

Now my suggestion to the Minister is, that use· the present class established by the City of Winnipeg Public School Board as the basis around which to build a class or classes of instruction for all those children in the Greater Winnipeg area suffer ing from that impairment and let the Province of Manitoba pay the costs.

Now as far as rural Manitoba is concerned there has never to my knowledge been any survey ever made to determine how many of these children there are in the rural parts of the Province and I'm quite satisfied that if such a survey were made that more children suffering from that impairment would be found. Now these children can be educated and I think it's up to us legislators to see that they are educated and to see that the children who are in that category are found and discovered and adequate preparations made to give them the best possible education that we can give them.

Now there is another group of children in our midst-- the retarded children. There are three classes of retarded children, there are those children who are untrainable who have an IQ of less than 25. These children unfortunately, the only future which they have is in an insti tution. But there is another group- the group in the IQ of 25 to 50. Now these children are trainable and certain communities in Manitoba today through community effort and through a little help from the Province of Manitoba are doing a very good job in training them, but my submission is, Mr.

Chairman, that more will have to be done by the Province of Manitoba to ward the cost of that training. In the town of Selkirk we have an excellent society for retarded children. Last summer we put on a drive for funds for the purpose of building a schoolhouse. At the present moment the Canadian Legion in Selkirk has been kind enough to lend us their basement for instructional purposes. The Kinsmen's Club there were kind enough to donate to us a station wagon for the purpose of transporting these children to and from school, but the cost to the people of the district is getting a little out of hand.

They don't mind the effort, they don't mind the giving of the love, of the affection and the interest towards that work but the time has come, Mr. Chairman, when the Province of Manitoba must do something to help them out of the financial burden in which they now find themselves. It is our intention in Selkirk to build a school for those children. We put on a drive last summer for the purpose of raising funds.

We haven't sufficient funds yet to build a school of the type that we require and I suggest to the Minister that in all those communities in Manitoba where schools have been established for retarded children, that these schools become entitled to the saine grants as other schools under the Public Schools Act. I think that that's the least that we can do. I recall bearing the Honourable Attorney-General speaking in this Legislature on the question of parole and what parole woulcl save the Province of Manitoba in the institutional care of the prisoners.

I'm ad vised that every child that has to be put in an institution costs this province about $1,500 a year and I'm advised too that if the life eXPectancy of that child say is 60 years of age, that child if it remains in an institution for that period would cost the Province of Manitoba $90, 000. Now sure iy the mathematics of the situation alone show-us that it's poor business not todo everything within our. power to try and educate those chil<]ren so that they can at least take some

part in society and at least, within the extent of their own capabilities and potentialities, serve us as useful citizens. I therefore hope, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister will take this matter under advisement and that he will, at least,implement the recommendation of the Royal Commission in respect of re tarded children. I would ask him to go further than that; I would ask him to give grants for buildings as well. MR. K. ALEXANDER (Roblin): Mr. Chairman, I was very interested in listening to the Honourable Member for Carillon this afternoon, particularly with his timet�ble. This timetable February 11th, 1960 Page 463

(Mr. Alexander, cont'd.) ••••. that he was stating that worked out so exactly for the government and I was very surprised at him mentioning it because, Mr. Chairman, this was his timetable. He was the one who set the timet able -- completely. Because you agreed and helped us set the time of the vote on the school question.

You did nothing else but and every member of your group who were sitting in the government side of the House at that time except one and I remember this very well, the Honourable Member who was at that time representing Birtle-Russell, maybe this is why he's n9longer representing it, I don't know, but I can remember him at that time in Law Amendments, standing up and saying, maybe we are going too fast with this, maybe we should wait for another year, I think we should wait fo r another year and he got no support from any of his colle agues who are now sitting on that side of the House, Mr. Chairman.

No one of them who was willing to support him on that issue. They were quite happy with the time table, they were quite happy with date of the vote, they were quite happy when the vote was going to take place. (Interjection). The date of the election? I'm very glad you mentioned it because the honourable members sitting opposite were the ones that set the date of elections completely. We had no control over the date of election, the coalition got together and threw us out of office and that's what set the date of election. That's what set the date of election, it wasn't us.

This timetable -- completely, completely -- your timetable. MR. GUTTORMSON: Where was the budget? MR. ALEXANDER: If you'd have given us time, w'd have got that too if you wanted it. As you found out later I think it was all ready for delivery at the time when we were voted out of of fice. It was all prepared and ready. --(interjection)-- You didn't give us a chance. Yes, we'll get back--we 'li leave this timetable alone but I think I've proved conclusively that it is his timetable.

There's a certain amount of talk about mill rates, taxes and such like, particularly as concerne? to our education plan and I'm not surprised that in some cases. there have been in creases in taxes. There have been �creases in taxes for nmpteen years back and they've been going up steadily, every year, and particularly for education. Just wait a minute 1 Wait a minute 1 We said this --that's what I get for working on the farm. MR . GUTTORMSON: ...... with you in the House tonight. MR. ALEXANDER: Want to bet? They got burnt at the last election.

But on the mill rates and taxes, I think it was made quite plain that at that time that if the same standard of education was maintailied, if the government put extra money in--I thought myself taxes would go down -- if the same standards were maintained. But surely, Mr. Chairman, there isn't one member over there that's not going to tell us that the standards of education have gone up trem endously. --(Interjection)-- Yes, they have in the country and I'll come to that in a minute too. MR. GUTTORMSON: We're still getting permit teachers. MR . ALEXANDER: Where do you live?

Which high school do you go to too, and I'll come to that in a minute. MR . GUTTORMSON: We still can't get teachers in some of our high schools. MR. ALEXANDER: I think, Mr. Chairman, that this plan has equalized the cost of edu cation to a great degree and where mill rates have gone up that it has been an elementary dist rict where they had a very very low standard of education and mill rates in those school districts have gone up and I don't think anybody in this House ever told them they'd go down. MR. GUTTORMSON: Yes, you did! MR. ALEXANDER: No, we did not! MR . GUTTORMSON: Yes, you did.

The Minister of Education ••.• MR. ALEXANDER: The Minister did nothing of the kind. MR . GUTTORMSON: Yes, he did; I was there when he did. MR . ALEXANDER: I think the Minister of Education will have an answer for you when he gets up too. MR. GUTTORMSON: Yes, he'd better have an answer if you think-- he knows I was there when he said it. MR. ALEXANDER: I want to come now to consolidated school districts. The districts where high school education was provided and I want to mention my own. On the half

section farm which I have my school taxes this past year dropped more than $60.00. MR. GUTTORMSON: That's one in a thousand. MR. ALEXANDER: One school district in a thousand, not taking into consideration Page 464 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Alexander, cont'd.) ••..• consolidated school districts, it's not. It's nothing of the kind one in a thousand! Not in the lea st, because those districts were paying for the cost of a high school education before and their taxes have gone down, definitely gone down and they're going to stay down. MR . GUTTORMSON: They're going to stay down, eh? MR. ALEXANDER: In consideration of what we have my taxes have gone down $60.00 and they won't come up that much, I don't think, within the next two or three years. They'll stay down below what they were before, yes. MR .

GUTTORMSON: You'll deny that next session. _ MR . ALEXANDER: Will we? OK. We also come into the other cost of education which is borne by local taxpayers before that is outside of their taxes and that is text books. That was a cost that was borne by the parents who were sending their children to school and that's a cost they don't have now. Also an awful lot of them had to pay a great deal of transportation facilities; they had to pay the full cost of board and room. You don't get that lOO% now I know but they still get assistance towards it.

And I think myself that there has been a considerable decrease across the board in the cost that the ordinary person was paying off land taxes towards education. It's quite apparent I think Mr. Chairman, from -- and I must exclude the Honourable Member for Selkirk from this remark, but it is quite apparent that some Liberals are still not in favour of this present school plan. It's quite apparent, particularly some of the older Liber als and I think recently the Honourable Leader of the Opposition said be was quite satisfied with the little red school house. Well, Mr. Chairman, I was fortunate.

I didn't have to go to school in the little red school house exactly but I went to school in a very small consolidated school in the country. And I was fortunate; 1 managed to get my Grade XI education there, that was as high as they went. I'd have had to go to town for Grade XII; couldn't afford to go to town and never did get my Grade XII. But even then we had to drive seven miles behind a team; we had a wheeled rubber-tired ban in the summer, we had a sleigh van in the winter and there were lots, of winters, Mi'.

Chairman, as kids -- not high school age, but children of seven and eight years of age -- we were on the end of the van route and there were times in the winter we never got home and our parents had no telephone, they had to assume that if we weren't home by seven o'clock at night we were being looked after somewhere along the road. And that often happened in the wintertime. We've had difficulties in the past in school systems, we'll have them in the present, we'll have them in the future, any time we try to improve it.

But as I say, I was one of the fortunate ones because I got my grade XI education in that manner. But I can name hun dreds of children in my constituency who did not get it and these came from school districts of Rochedale, they came from the school districts of Dropmore, Leonard, Mountain Gap, Duck Mountain, Maryville, Sunn yslope, Shortdale, St. Lura, and if the Honourable Member from ...• would give me more time I could keep on going.

But there's a great many of those children out ·in the country that have no more than Grade VIll and I sincerely hope that if we continue to raise the standards of education in the country, that this Provincial Government will continue to put the money into the plan that it costs to give those children an equal chance. I wish now I'd had my Grade XII; if I had, I might have been able to get on and go to university when I came. back after the war. I couldn't take that year of the five years to get Grade XII and university. I wish now I had a better education. I couldn't get it at that time. I'm quite su re, Mr.

Chairman, that there's lots to be done in this plan, there's lots more to be done in education in this pro vince. There's lots of improvements to be made and I must say that I think in all due fairness excepting once again the Honourable Member for Selkirk who sits on the Liberal side, that the· only constructive criticism we've had on the school plan unfortunately has come from the CCF. group (Interjection)--Unfortunately. MR . PAULLEY: Why? MR . ALEXANDER: Because I think all opposition members should be prepared to offer constructive criticism.

Well I said that's unfortunate, because that's the only place it's coming from. MR . PAULLEY: •••.• the wrong

interpretation from that·. MR. ALEXANDER: It's a good job I'm not a lawyer or I could do better. Mr.Cha irman, I would like to say that myself I am quite proud of this system. I am proud of this government for bringing it in. I am proud of what the government has done and I am quite sure and I will February 11th, 1960 Page 465

(Mr. Alexander, cont'd.) ...•. say right now that I am quite prepared to run in my constituency in the next election on this school program of this government. MR. GRAY: Mr.

Chairman, there might be a little sarcasm in the minds of some of the members here when I, getting up to speak on the general policy of education, because here is a man that still has his accent, his grammar is poor, his composition is worse but I feel that being hungry of education, not having any education myself, I mean academic education, I thought perhaps I'd take a minute or two to express my views on the general policy of education, which will not prevent me from dealing with each item on the estimates.

With all my respect and love for the individual members of the Official Opposition, I think in this session the only construc tive words I've heard was from the Honourable Member from Selkirk tonight. He did not sham battle the elections anymore, he didn't blame the other fellow for things he has not done, the same as the other fellows did, but so far there's not one said, "Now you haven't done it last year, let's forget about it, what are you going to do now?" Mr.

Chairman, one of the main reasons I came to Canada, knowing the hardhips I'd have to go through here, was the possibility of an education for my children here. And when I say my children, I have in mind, children of other parents, under very trying financial circumstances. I have a son that graduated in medicine when he was 22 years of age with 50 cents weekly allowance: I have another son who went through school and to facilitate his education I put him in the boarding school in the Agricultural College. He got his Bachelor of Science degree at the age of 24.

And both have served in the Second World War, I'm proud of them. I know that I'd owe this state a lot of unpaid taxes if I would have to finance their education myself and the same with the other children. I feel because I'm hungry for education I feel the great importance of it and as the Honourable. Member for Selkirk has said, this is ii:tsurance, an investment which will pay very, very high interest- very high interest. We've reached an age that labourers or people without education have no chance at all to combat the economic difficulties facing them in this world.

Without an education he will be a burden on the state and the state will have to provide for him; without an education he'll probably line up the same as in 1933 where we were threatened with an ideology that would have enslaved the entire world. So the expense, whether we pay more or less, has no bearing on the fact that each and every one must receive an education and if they haven't got the money to pay now let posterity do it. Let the children do it, because we have given them a foundation; we have built of their character; we have given them a profession. And now they can see the effect to the state.

My suggestion is -- or my question is to the Minister now -- is he doing everything possible, everything possible, period-- away from politics entirely, because the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health should not belong to any party. They should pick the best men and put them in these jobs because they are dealing with human suffering. They are dealin g with the future of the child. They are savilig their lives economically, educationally and from a health point of view. So my question directed to you, Mr.

Minister, is -- are you now doing everything possible to give each and every one who wants an education, each and everyone who wants to go to university, each and every one who wants to get a profession and couldn't do it- are you doing everything possible to facilitate for him getting it? This is my question. This is my main interest in dealing with the youth today. We could make out of the youth what we want. They are still young. We can mould them as good citizens. We can prepare them to take my seat and your seats in this House; we can prepare them to direct the world to peaceful enter prises.

They would have spent millions and billions of dollars on preparation for war. We could have them all happy providing we now don't bicker about who has done this and who has done that. As far as I am concerned, it doesn't make any difference. If a good thing comes up· from any group or anybody I am prepared to support it and because I am hungry for education I like to see the others get it. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I didn't have the pleasure of sitting in this House when all this busin ess started of school divisions and so on so I am certainly not going to talk about that and timetable and so on, but I would like to give these few words of constructive criticism (I would think anyway) to the government. Last year the government stated to the province that they were from now on going to pay for all t!J.e school books of all the children of Manitoba. I think that the Minister meant well. He wasn't trying to fool the people when he said that buti don't think that that is true at all.

First of all, the pupils attending private schools should have had their books, especially the Page 466. February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Desjardins, cont'd.) •••.• books that when they have the same books as those in public schools. I think those books should have been paid for. I don •t think that the principle of help ing or rejecting help to the private schools should come into that at all. But this is just a feeling. I don't think that I should suggest anything to the goverilment at this time as no doubt they are getting something ready on their policy on private schools. But what I would like to deal with tonight is this question of school books.

Last year I asked the Minister and he told me then and I appreciate that but Rome wasn't built in a day and it takes a while, and you can only learn by trying certain things, and I think that we've had a year now. Now mind you, tbe Minister should stop me if this has. been changed and if this is being done this year, but I feel that all school books (I'm talking strictly of public schools now) I feel that all school books should be paid for -- I mean the text books -- because the first, especially the first four grades I think tllat the bigger majority of the school books are text books.

Now last year the Minister told us that he could not pay for these because they weren •t recognized, they weren't approved. Well, I would say that the government should have a policy on this. If those schools are not good enough or if they are not for any reason, if they are not approved -- I say throw them out. But if they stay there I say pay for them because people that have these young children going to school in these first four grades especially, if you tell them that you are going to pay for the books, pay for all the books.

Or, a suggestion that I made last year, if it costs too much money (I know it's easy to say spend, spend, spend) and if you can do it, maybe you should save a few more cents and let the people know exactly what you are doing and have a certain policy on that and start paying for the school books only after grade five. But if you are going to pay in any grade I definitely think that you should pay for all school books, all text books, the work book included and if they are not recognized, I would suggest to the Minister that they should throw them out. MR . . A. J. REID {Kildonan): Mr.

Chairman, the River East No. 9 has been mentioned here a couple of times today so as a representative of that area which includes all of East Kil donan and part of North Kildonan, I thought I would say a few words, especially as the press had it and the Hono.urable Member from Turtle Mountain mentioned a light vote last Tuesday. While i think-- my own personal explanation of it, is the unfortunate

part like in the last municipal elections last fall we had all acclamations from the mayor down, which always is a light vote, and then we had an elementary school bylaw. Thus this time with the secondary school not -- doing very little advertising because I know I had people phoning me and asking where they had to vote and there was very little advertising which I think caused a very light vote. Now we talk about increased costs, Mr.

Chairman, which is true and sitting here on his budget and on his estimates and back and forth the discussions on it remind me of the radio program Beefs and Bouquets, and I am going to throw a bouquet at the Minister of Education because as you gentlemen notice when you look at our budget (the school budget) it's exacly one third of the total budget which I figure is very good. It could be better. It is unfortunate that some of it is not channelled maybe in the right sources but maybe the Minister with all the discus sion today will take that into consideration and it will be cbne so.

True, the costs have gone up. We've all tal ked about costs. In East Kildonan alone the mill rate went up two mills when we had the elementary and now the division. In North Kildonan, part of which I represent, went up 2. 9 mills. But we are not, as it has been said here, Mr. Chairman, we are not debating the cost of education. I think the more money we spend on edu cation, the better education we will have for our children. But what we are trying to debate, at least in my :tnind is, is equalization of the costs of education.

And it is unfortunate we haven't got a fund that we can't just take the funds out of and spend it but I think if our Minister of Education prevails on our Minister of Natural ResoUrces, one of his colleagues, and we start developing our natural resources -- maybe I'm a little bit off the topic Mr. Chairman but I just want to stress a point here -- that we have just tapped our natural resources; and all the money we acquire from natural resources should be set up in a fund and spent entirely for education purposes.

Thus we could equalize education, equalize the cost of education across Manitoba without the increase in mill rate we are always talking about because it is no doubt true, Mr. Chairman, as education {the cost of education) keeps going up thus the taxes are going to go up. And it is unfortunate but taxes, you can't take them out of the air. It's got to come out of February 11th, 1960 Page 467

(Mr. Reid, cont'd.) ••.•• somebody's pocket. And there is one sort that I have always been thinking of -- that developing our natural resources would be a very good means of settingcup a fund and paying our educational costs because there is no doubt that -- nobody wants anything for nothing, Mr. Chairman, but we've all said it was going to be equalized and that would be one way of equalizing it • So I think, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister actually should be congratulated on what he is trying to do and the only way he can do it -- he can't do it alone, it's true we sit on this side and criticize him -- but I think with constructive criticism and all of us trying to help ' him --I think in the future and possibly before this term is up we may realize an education sys tem that we are all striving for. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, if it's in order to rise on a point of privilege I would do so in Committee. Yes, but it's a point of privilege actually.

While I was speaking I believe I said that some of the Liberal office seekers were organized in their opposition to the school division program.-- I think that this is not quite right. I think that I was unjustified and not cor rect in saying that. I would apologize. The member for Emerson said this was nonsense and perhaps this did make no sense. What I really meant to say was that a good many of the promi nent Liberals that I knew were sluggish and critical of it but they were certainly not organized in their opposition and while they didn't help I didn't think they purposely opposed it either. MR.

PREFONTArnE: Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead? I would like to ask the Honourable Member for Brokenhead whether he was speaking on behalf of his constituents and as a delegate of his constituents .when he advocated the larger ·unit idea as against the large division idea or whether he was speaking on his own behalf as a school teacher. MR. SCHREYER: If I might answer that, I was speaking--partly the sentiments were my own and partly they are the sentiments of a good number of my constituents • MR.

McLEAN: I understand this is the item upon which the Minister is required to earn his salary and that I should now deliver some comment about the opinions which have been ex pressed here this afternoon and evening. I'm very appreciative of the suggestions and ideas which have been put forward and want to say that all of them will be examined with care and as many as appear to have good possibilities will be incorporated into our school system. There are one or two matters that perhaps I -- to which I should make particular refer ence at this stage of the debate.

I want to deal first of all with this matter of taxation because I think that there is a misunderstanding of what was said and of what was. intended. The purpose of the system attache d to the school division plan was, as I stated on a number of occasions, the purpose of equalizing the cost of education in the Province of Manitoba. Equalizing it as among local taxpayers and equalizing it as between that part which is paid by the local taxpayer and that part which is paid from the provincial financial resources.

And no one- certainly not me -- would suggest that that meant that in every case every taxpayer's tax bill for education was going to go down, because to do so woUld be to ignore entirely the equalization factor which was a very important part of the whole idea. Now, I gave, when I spoke on an earlier occasion, a.number of cases of municipalities as municipalities, towns and villages, where in fact the cost to the local taxpayer of providing educational services had gone down. And of course it's perfectly clear that in many instances it went up.

That is what is implied in equalization, because if you equalize down for some it's obvious you!re going to have to equal ize up with others. Now as to what I said in meetings, I have already referred to that on another occasion as well. Pointed out the additional money that was available from the provincial financial resources, said that that money would be available to bear a substantial portion of the cost of education in the particular division.

And I pointed out on every occasion that the extent of taxation in the local district or in the division concerned would be dependent upon the way in which the trustees, local school district trustees or local division trustees arranged their business and financial affairs. But I want to make this point, that in a large number of cases in the Province of Mani toba the cost to the local taxpayer, and I am speaking of municipalities, not school districts, but municipalities, towns and villages that the cost did in fact go down in 1959.

Furthermor e, and to repeat again some other information I gave to the House earlier, basing it on a percentag e basis in relation to the total cost of education in the year 1958 and 1959, the amount of money paid by the municipal taxpayers for education on this percentage basis was 6. 6 % less in 1959 Page_468 February 11th, 1960

(Mr . McLean, cont'd.) .•••• than it was in 1958 . And I point out again that the new grant sys tem was only in operation for a period of 9 months during that year . In addition there is the fact that one and a half million dollars was paid from provincial funds for the purchase of text books and that represents not a saving to individual taxpayers as such, but certainly represents a saving to the general public, the parents of school children throughout the Province of Manitoba. And then of course there is the other feature , that of transportation.

The monies paid out by the province both for the pruchase of buses and toward the cost of operating those buses which relieved the parents and local communities of substantial amounts of money which they had previously paid for transporting their pupils and children to schooL So that all of the things that we said we hoped would happen from the tax point of view have, in my opinion taken place. Now dealing particularly with one or two matters. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain referred to some of the mechanics of the Act and of course he is perfectly correct that the Act is not perfect.

Incteed I do not expect to live long enough to ever have it in perfect shape . I certainly don't intend to be -- hope I don't have to remain in this particular position long enough to get it perfect because I am sure it would take a long time. The matter to which he referred about children being transported in one half-ton trucks with bad contrivances on the back is of course prefectly true . And that's exactly the sort of thing that we're trying to im prove and doing so as quickly as we can.

He asked whether it was the intention to continue the studies and noted particularly that we have no item in the estimates for commissions and studies. That of course was an item that appeared in the estimates to cover the work of the Royal Commission on Education and the fact of the matter is we're not planning on any Royal Commission on Education during the term of these particular es timates, but it is not correct to assume that we do not intend to study matters pertaining to education.

Indeed one of the things that we have done in the reorganization of the department is to establish an officer whose responsibility it is to conduct continuous research into all matters pertaining to education, and that is a new departure and one which we hope will pay handsome dividends and is the type of study that we intend to pursue . With respect to the observations made by the Member for St.

John's, I was, if he will permit me, interested in the views which he was expressing about the people entering teachers college -- interested to note how similar his views are to a member of the Royal Commission on Education who has been having a good deal to say about that subject. Now this is an old "whipping boy" .

May I just remind the honourable member that the report, the final report of the Royal Commission reacbe.d us on the 30th of Novembe r and I'm inclined to think that the recommendations which they made respecting the qualifications for entry to teacher's college are indeed very worthy of consideration, and some of them I hope will be put into operation as quickly as possible . But may I say that our classes were underway, they're underway and we couldn't of course , change it overnight.

However, that is a matter which is of course always before us , and it � ould be my hope that we would raise the standard to an acceptable point as quickly as possible.

On the su bject of bursaries and scholarships , of course, he is overlooking entirely the fact that approximately $1 million, more money is being provided for the University of Manitoba general operating expenses which ha ve a very important bearing upon the cost to the individual student, because if that money were not provided either one of two things would have to happen: the services of the university would have to be curtailed or alternatively they would have to· raise the tuition fees to the student.

So that to the extent that we support the University of Manitoba in the fashion in which we do , we are contributing very substantially to each and every . individual student who makes use of the facilities that are provided.

Mo re than that the item for scholarships and bursaries as it has heretofore appeared included a substantial amount of money for scholarships or bursaries -- more particularly bursaries -- for high school students , which for the most part are no longer required, because when there were a large number of high school students who had to make their private arrangements for getting to a high school and paying perhaps tuition fees at a high school, it was important and indeed necessa ry to have financial ass istance for a number of them.

But that is no longer necessary except in very unusual cases because of the fact that every student in the Province of Manitoba has a high school which he or she is entitled to attend without the payment of any fees and indeed are entitled to transport ation to that high school. So that in effect we have added to the monies which are available for February 11th, 1960 Page 469

(Mr. McLean, cont'd.) .•.• ·.t he students who are going to attend our University and the affiliated bolleges . Easy enough to say that it is not enough. We feel that the amount put in is reasonable I in comparison to the requests which we have been receiving . The item respecting loans of course is reduced for the very good reason that we have very small call for loans for money under the loani ng plan . 1 I was particularly interested in what the Honourable Member for Brokenhead had to say concerning the morale of the department.

And I want to say to him that I intend to look into this matter in very great detail because of course if there is any suggestion of a lowering of the morale in the Department of Education that would indeed be a most serious matter and it is one in which I am particularly interested. I would like to say something concerning this matter -of textbooks. I thought that we had it clear when we were meeting last time, that all that we have ever undertaken to provide are the "authorized" textbooks.

The word authorized is a most important word in that context because there are certain books -- certain textbooks which are authorized and which are required to be used in the particular grades and in the particular subjects . We have in addition of course , a number of what are known as "approved" textbooks which are available for teachers to use if they decide or if thP-ir school system directs or approves their use, but they are used in not all schools and the purpose of approving them is. in order that those who wish to use them may do so .

On the subject of workbooks of course, that's just a fancy word for a scribbler and I would think it would be unwise for us to venture into that field. My understanding is that some teachers wouldn't use a work book under any circumstances and many of them consider them n ot good for the children . . •. Pardon. MR . DESJARDINS: .•... fancy prices for scribblers . MR. McLEAN: Yes, I suppose -- probably I bought some myself and didn't know it .

I don't know that I can usefully comment on the very forceful address made by the Honour able Member for Carillon because I'm not just too clear what it is he wants me to do. I'm interested in just really whether he thinks we should have implemented the report, the interim report, exactly as it came -- that would be an interesting idea. That matter of course was dis cussed and our . decision and reasons for it were made quite clear. But there is one item I want to cover and cover it very clearly and that is the matter of the classrooms and how the classrooms are made up for purpose of school constructio n.

The regulations to which he referred were regulations in effect long before I came into this office and long before this government took office. They were regulations made which allowed class room counts , if a room contained a certain number of feet, and if it was used for certain pur poses -- and that extended to the matter of auditoriums. Now those were the regulations which were in force when we were talking in October and November 1958 about classrooms . MR . PREFONTAINE: Were not these regulations renewed for the purposes of the larger divisions ? MR. McLEAN: Were they not which? MR .

PREFONTAINE: Renewe d. · MR . McLEAN: Reviewed or renewed? MR. PREFONTAINE: Renewed .• MR . McLEAN: .•..• they're the same regulations. I'm not interested in any techni ca lities about that sort of thing. Thes.e were the regulations which were in force when we were talking about schools and school construction in 1958, in October and November. And when we were in committee, when we were in committee Mr .

Chairman, and we were discussing how this calculation would work, when we were discuss ing what the scale should be from 4 up to 12 and beyond, we had an actual plan before the committee in room 200 , which was put to the committee to explain to them how this was going to be done . And that plan contained an audito rium, it contained these other extra rooms, and it was shown to the honourable member and the other members of the committee how the room-count of that particular school would work out · for the purpose of the grant scale we were then discussing .

And it is wrong to suggest that the committee had any wrong impression about how the room-count was going to be calculated for the purpose of the grant scale that we were discussing. Now, Mr . Chairman, just one final thing because the Honourable Member for St . John's said I hadn't made a very inspiring statement this afternoon and I accept his admonition , - and Page 470 February 11th, 1960

(Mr . McLean, cont'd.) .•••• the Honourable Member for Brokenhead said I really hadn't said very much and be invite d me to say something about my hopes and my philosophy of education and including the subject of the curriculum . Now there is a subject on which I enjoy making a speech and I'll be glad to obl ige right now. I come from a Scottish background, I have in my bringing up the intense interest which the Scottish people have alwa ys had for a good education.

That was the atmosphere in which I was brought up , that is what I believe in, that every boy and girl should have the widest possi ble opportunity for a good education . And I believe further that it is the re sponsibility of society to see that the necessary facilitie s for that are available , and when I say society I am speaking of all of us as a group of citizens and n0t necessarily just as the Province of Manitoba, but as citizens in our local communities and citizens in the Province of Manitoba at large . And furthermore , I say that that is the first and highest responsibility that we have .

We have many other responsibilities in public life but we have no responsibility that is higher than that . How- it must not be misunderstood that the provision of money, or the building of buildings, or the provision of any mechanical contrivances is in itself sufficient because the se are only just the very beginning of education . Education can only come from, first of all a desire on the part of the student to learn, which comes from his or her family background and inspiration and encour agement which they recei ve .

It can come only from keen , dedicated, inspired teache rs who have the ability -- and you can't merit rate this , it can't be done I'm certain -- who have the ability to inspire students to work and learn and absorb the knowledge that is necessary for them to grow and develop and be able to carry on in their work in society. And this is a most important thing because it's perfectly true that unless we do this job of education we're sunk, just as certain as anything you ever heard of in your life .

This is the most important job that we have to do and we stand or fall as a society on the effectiveness with which we do this job. But not only do we need the ph ysical requirements, not only do we need the money to do the job, but we must be ever conscious of developing the right attitude , because there have been lots of very intelligent people who have created great destruction in the history of the world and it is not enough simply to make people wise or to have them with knowledge. They must have those things with the ri ght attitude .

I am inclined to think that the development of proper attitudes, of course , is something that needs a great deal of development, will take a long time to put on perhaps a proper basis . I am one who feels that we are behind in the Province of Manitoba, that we have a great space to catch up in this modern day and age in being able to provide the type of education that our boys and girls require . But we're trying to do the job now, and many people will say we're not moving fast enough, and some others will say we 're being too energetic and there you are .

But I think that our problem is well illustrated by the question that was asked by the Honourable Member for lnkster , because he said this, "Are you now doing everything possible?" Well Mr. Chairman, that's the question that has always been asked and will always be asked, because I don't think that it is ever possible for anyone to say, "y es, I am doing everything possible," because no matter how much we do it will always be possible to do more in this field.

And the only thing that we're trying to do, I'm trying to do and my colleagues are giving me very great assistance in doing, is to do our part within the field that is given to us to ope rate . And that is why we come to you , to this committee and to thi s House for the monies that are necessary, that we think are necessary to do the job. It isn't going to be a perfect job, it isn't going to be final, and it isn't going to be anything that can't be improved on next year and all the years that lie ahead as long as you care to think.

But we hope that this is an earnest of our desire to do a good job for the boys and girls of the Province of Manitoba . • . • • . . . • . . continued on next page . February 11th, 1960 Page 471

MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, don'texpecttoo much criticism from me because I don't think that! am an authority on criticizing. It seems to me that the opinion from the gentleman across, honourable gentleman across, is that in the past the educational system that we had under the past administration could not have produced a good product. I do not think that I can agree with some of the honourable gentlemen across who say so because looking across we see the product of the rural areas. In the front benches, the Ministers themselves, I think there are only three from the City of Winnipeg.

Most of the Ministers come from rural areas and from larger towns and I am sure that not one of them will agree if I say.that the past educa tional system produced a chgap product. I don't think any of the Ministers will agree with me. I don't. They wouldn't be there if they were a cheap product. So we must give some credit to the past educational system. I do not say it was 100 percent. I must however say that it is a step to improve the educational system.

And I wish to congratulate the Honourable Minister because I know that what he is trying to do, he is convinced that it will improve our education in the Pro� vince of Manitoba. I also must congratulate him for trying to prevent almost a complete tragedy created by his government. I know it must be something like a nightmare. Maybe some of these things were unavoidable, as was mentioned before; there was an election coming, and everything was donOJ in such a haste that there wasn't enough time for planning. And especially I refer to boundaries . We know that MFA in it's brief didn't make this comment.

They said there is con siderable dissension over certain boundaries. Isn't that an indication that the Boundaries Corn� mission had to rush to meet a dateline? I think it is-. If they were given more time to consider these boundaries, I do not think that we would have had so much trouble.

There were only two points that I objected to during the first referendum and that is -- one of them was -- that when the speakers went out into the country, in to the rural areas trying to convince the people to vote in favour, they seemed to defeat one of the chief aimS Of the Royal Commission on Education -- and that was centralization. Some of my colleagtieS do not agree with that, but I do. I think that the only way to improve .education in rural areas woUld be to centralize.

At one of the meetings when the Honourable the Attorney-General spoke I did ask that question, "I sn't this going to defeat the purpose of the Bill?" Of course somebody ail� swered, ''not necessarily". That was one point I had against it, against what the speakers were saying. I believe that the speakers should have come out openly and say, the purpose of this, the aim of this is eventually to centralize, beca use that's the only way to improve education. Another one as I mentioned before is the rush.

True, they said this is ten years over due but when we get something that's very appetizing and palatable to the taste it doesn't mean that we just have to chew it in a helter-skelter way and then swallow it. It would have been much nicer I think, if the division -- the -boundary commission was given a little more time to consider the boundaries and we would not have had this spectacle that we are having now. I am sure that even boundary divisions, proposed divisions would have accepted it, because they had nothing against the plan providing it would have been formed in a different manner .

The Honour able.Member for Brokenhead, although he apologized for what he had said, he mentioned that there seemed to have been a Liberal organization working against it. I think he was entirely wrong there. He admitted he was . I think I could disclose now that there was organized oppo sition, but it didn't come from the Liberal side. The organized opposition came from Frailklin Municipality, from the Councils and the Reeves themselves and on that council out of seven there are only two Liberal men . And they were organized. In the last referendum that we had this summer it wasn't the Liberals that opposed it.

No. It was the Conservatives, our Conser·� vative friends that opposed it, and they were organized too, and it wasn't the Liberals . The Liberals, practically all were in favour of that plan because they agreed with the plan. We heard quite a bit of talk from the members opposite, especially the members from urban areas. Some of them seem to think that they know an awful lot about the conditions exist• ing in rural areas as regards schools . I'm sorry to say that most of them know very little judg� ing by what they have to say.

It's very nice for these members -- coming from the City of Win� nipeg or surrounding areas -- or Dauphin -- to say that we are very happy with the existing con ditions . But they simply don •t know the conditions that at that time existed in the country, in rural areas . Let us stop and think what these people had to sacrifice arid I'll take my hat off to the people that did accept the school division, although they knew what they had to sacrifice.

One of the greatest sacrifices was -- they had to sacrifice, they knew it -- that there will be centralization, because that is economical and that's the only way we could improve our educa- Page 472 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Tanchak, cont' d.) ... tional system . What do they have to do ? They have to sacrifice their local high schools, two room , three room , four room high schools that they had. They knew they had to lose them, and I told them that. But at the same time I told them it will be better for your pupi ls, for your children if the schools were centralized. Your children will be able to take advantage of better instruction in a larger school. I did tell them that and in most of the divisions in rural areas I'm sure that the people knew what was coming . They expected it although they were told otherwise.

They didn't believe it because most of them knew -- they have heard what the interim report recomme nded. They had to sacrifice these schools . True, they were not lOO% but most of those schools were beautiful schools although they were small and they were kept clean and some of the rural people resent the statement that was made -- I' m not going to criticize the Honourable Minister that some of them were like barns. I say they were not . MR . MC LEAN: Mr.

Chairman, on a point of privilege, I made no such statement. made specific reference to a particular building in another speech and what I said about that building is true and correct. I made no general statement about other schools. MR . TANCHAK: I'll accept the explanation of the Honourable Minister but when the press picked that up , the people in the rural areas out my way and many other places -- I've heard from more, they resented that because they think that the Honourable Minister referred to most of the rural schools. I'll accept his explanation.

I say myself, that these little schools were not barns because barns house animals and the people in rural areas still consider them selves human beings. That was one sa crifice they had to make . Sacrifice their small schools . Another sacrifice, the close contact with students . Students, pupils, teachers and so on. We used to have, and still have in many rural areas, P arents' Day. Some schools set aside half an hour weekly, say 3:30 to 4, that the parents who wish to come into the high school, sit quiet ly and observe, they may.

When the divisions come in and these local high schools have to be sacrificed, they will not be able to do it. There won't be as close a contact . They knew it, but they were willing to sacrifice that. They showed it by their vote and now the inter-school com petition . In our area there was inter-school competition every year . We had these field days among these schools . Several high schools -- say half a dozen high schools together would have a field day in the fall or in the spring. Usually in the fall. They had to sacrifice that in many divisions .

The price -- pride of iromerliate local achievement .... ; .... just out of school, we are not in a division at present. I hope that in the near future, we will be in some division. I tried to point out to the people that we cannot afford to stay out of a division. It did not seem to help this last time, but I still hope that some day we will enter some division. I'm sure that the Minister will consider if we come up and make certain re- quests. I hope he does. The peace of mind -- that's something to consider -- and that's as far as transportation is concerned.

In some divisions, as has been stated before, the students have to be transported as far as thirty miles away. The parents send their children out to school in the morning -- it' s a beautiful day, sunny. But what may come before 4 o' clock that same day ? They never know, especially in the winter time . I know one instance right at Ridgeville that happened only about six years ago. A storm came up so suddenly that the pupils were caught between the high school and the town . The high school is only about l/8th of a mile from the town of Ridgeville and they could not get to town .

All they could do was lie down where they were . Then the parents came out, the parents came out with rope s, holding to ropes tied to the poles. In town they walked down to the general direction and luckily they were able to pick all of them up . The same thing could happen in a big transport, in a bus, and wouldn't that be an anxiety to the parents? That was a great s&.crifice for those people to make. There w ere other sacrifices -- I don't think I can enumerate· all of them.

I've tried some but I say that we should all take our hats off to these rural people who are willing to sacrifice all this just to see that the children get a better education . As far as suggestions going, there's very few that I can make . One suggestion that I' d like to i:nake and the Honourable Member for Brokenhead did mention something about it and that' s examinations. There is a student at Emerson -- I have his name but will not _dis close now -- up to the present time he does not know what marks he had in his Grade XI . He hasn't got the certificate yet . He doesn't know why .

This may be not right -- I may stand cor' rected -- but that• s what he tells me. He was permitted to proceed with his Grade XII pending February 11th, 1960 Page 473

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd.) ..• the finding of the certificate . Now I do not think that this is right and 1 hope that the Minister looks into this and this doesn't happen ·again. There 's .one more suggestion that I wo.uld.like to make and I don't say that is possible. I remember last fall-when the Honourable Member for. Carillon did mention this, that when the cor.struction grants were being considered, there was an 80% of total construction that was supposed to apply to larger centres like Winnipeg and larger towns .

I wonder if it wouldn't be pos sible to channel more money into rural areas instead of channelling more into larger areas like these, considering what these people had to sacrifice to adopt the division. I thank you. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, !think the matter has been quite thoroughly discussed today, however I'd just like to underline one thing the previous speaker has said and that's in regard to centralization. I definitely feel that this new division program is centralizing and I personally could not go along with that.

Already we see that many smaller rural districts or rural centres are adversely affected by this very school division plan and this will only be accelerated as time goes on . Now that is all I have to say in that regard. My ques tion would be on the annual report and report of accounts under the Teachers' Retirement Allow ances Act. Apparently this report has not been distributed as yet and therefore I would like a statement from the Minister regarding the Te achers' Retirement Allowances. Fund.

Under the public accounts as of .March 31st, 1959 show that $25, 700 was apportioned to the Teachers ' Re tirement Allowances Fund which had to do with the Winnipeg teachers or provision for recogni tion of rural service of Winnipeg teachers, and I was wondering how much of that $488, 000 was made a part of that because of this fact. Then also, is the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund, is that actuarially sound? Is it as sound a Fund with our present increase in salaries for teachers and so on? Could we have a statement from the Minister in that regard? MR.

M CLEAN: I would just refer the Honourable Member to page 213 of the Annual report of the Department of Education which contains the report of the Manitoba Teachers' Re tirement Fund and I think that the information -- part at least of which he is asking -- will be found there, but may I suggest that that item and those questions might be dealt with when we reach that item under the estimates. I'll be very glad to provide the information at that time. Now, Mr .

Chairman, I wonder-if I might suggest -- we've had a very good discussion under this general item, and I wonder if I might suggest that we now pass this item and proceed and I'm certain there will be many other items -- many other questions and statements that the members will wish to make as we .proceed through the estimates themselves. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, there is one question to which we have not had an answer from the Honourable Minister as yet, or I don't think we have and that concerns the sub ject that was raised by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert-Plai ns , and I refer in particular to the Dauphin-Ochre area. This is the fourth session that I have attended here and at each and every one of them except this one, we listened to the honourable members opposite levelling their guns at the late W. C.

Miller telling -- they kept telling us what he had failed to do in the many years that he held the post -- and it seems to me that that was rather unfair because I be lieve is a fact that the late W. C. Miller made an honest effort to form the larger school areas some twelve years ago. I know it is only true that he succeeded in selling the idea to one area of the province and the Honourable Minister knows to which area I refer because I believe that he represents that particular area. Now, I know that he, the late W. C.

Miller also spent a great deal oftime trying to sell the people ofthis province on the secondary areas and did succeed in the establishment of four such. areas in the province, the last of which to be established was the secondary area number four in the town of Neepawa.

Now for some reason or other when we voted on the school division question about a year ago this month, I believe it was, the Dauphin Ochre residents were given the opportunity of postponing the vote there and there was an advan tage in that, I have yet to hear the real reason for that but the residents in that area certainly had the advantage of surveying the other areas they have voted themselves in, to see how it was working and I understand, too, that the people in that area voted on the subject matter about two months ago and I further ujnderstand that they decided that they had better remain as they were.

Now, to me, that is a tribute to the late W. C. Miller and I understand further, .t hat the Honour able. the Mir!ister of Education advised the residents in his area that they had better remain as they were, that they had a ••.••..... MR . MCLEAN: How are you saying that? Page 474 February 11th, 1960

MR , SHOE MAKER: Pardon? MR . MCLEAN: Will you repeat that . MR . SHOEMAKER: I said, I understand that the Minister advised residents of the area that they would lose grounds by voting for the divisions. That they had a better set- up ..... . MR . MCLEAN : Then you'd better get a little better advice than that . MR . SHOEMAKER: Well that's the rumour . I said it was a rumour that ih eard .. Iw ill accept the Honourable Minister' s explanation of it, but it was a question that was raised by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains that hasn't been answe red, but I insist that it is a tri bute to the late W. C.

Miller . Now, the Honourable Member for Ca rillon has just pres ented me with a Free Press clipping dated October 28, 1959 and the heading says "The School Area Plan Best, the Minister tells Dauphin." ''The Honourable Stewart McLean" -- I'm quoting now -- "Minister of Education MR. MCLEAN: According to press report . MR . SHOEMAKER: That's right. ''The Honourable stewart McLean, Minister of Education, said Monday he thought the school area plan was superior to the school division set-up .

Addressing a public meeting in Dauphin he said the area plan which had been opera ting in Dauphin and district for the past 12 years was better than the division system in two ways . For educational services that can be provided and for financing these services by local taxpaye rs". And I won't read it any furth er . I will if you wish, but that' s the .... confirm s that .

Now the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain ma de certain reference to the taxes, the increase. of same and suggested that perhaps the system could be improved by ma king the grants available ea rlier to the schools to avoid · high iiiterest costs and I agree with him on that one because I think it is a fact in the Beautiful Plains constituency that the end of December they owed the bank something like $80, 000 and I know that the certain members of the board were suggested that they were really acting as borrowing agencies·f or the Province and it made it rather expensive and on the ma tter of taxes I know the Minister -- I think the Honourable the Minister has now agreed that he did make the statement that there would be no increase in taxes or suggested that ...... .

MR . MCLEAN: I didn't agree to any such statement at all, Mr . Chai rman. MR . SHOEMAKER: Well the Honourable Member for St. John quoted what he had to say in Hansard and it suggested that, perhaps I should say, but the -- I think that we should be fair in this matter because there were two factors that entered into the increase in taxes and that hasn't been brought up yet.

In and around the Neepa wa district the land has just recently been assessed by the Provincial Assess ment Branch and in many cases the assessment went up and it went up at the same time that the school division program came in, but the people are blaming it on the school division. I think we should be fair on that one and the Minister hasn't touched on that point yet, but that has happened in severa l places in the province . But the people in the area are concerned about their taxes and there's no question about that . Now just yesterday I received a letter from a resident in Riding Mountain.

The letter is dated February 6th but I just received it yesterday and I wondered when I received it why I did because the writer does not live in my constituency. However it is addressed to me. -- (Interje ction) -- Well it does concern -- you'll find out later on when I read it why he mailed it to me . It is addre ssed to me.

It says, •The below motion was passed without a dissenting vote at a well represented meeting of the Riding Mountain branch of the Manitoba Farm ers ' Union Local #70 ." And here is the re solution, and I quote . 'Whereas the income from property has got to the deplorable state where in a lot of cases the taxes are well above the rental value of the prope rty, we ,_ the members of the Riding Mountain Farmers' Union Local #70 hereby notify the Manitoba Legislative Asse mbly that we will not tolerate any more raise in taxes ;• Copy of the - - now perha ps all the members have received this, I don't know.

It says, "a copy of the motion to be forwarded to the Municipal ity of Rosedale ; Neepawa, Manitoba; R.M. of Lansdowne, Arden; R.M. of Glenella; to the Sec retary of the iarge school area of Oak River, MacCreary; to the Secretary Treasurer of the large school are a of Neepawa; and to all prima ry school boards represented in the membership of the Riding Mountain local, and to the Secretary of the Riding Mountain Whitemud River Water shed Committee, who apparently contemplate a levy against- property. A copy also to be forward ed to the M. F. U. office at Winnipeg.

Signed, your truly, Arnold Jackson, Secretary-Treasurer February 11th, 19.60 Page 475

{Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd.) ... M.F.U. #70". And that does point up the fact that they are concerned about the taxes . Now when the Honourable the Minister reported to the assembly this afternoon that we had 63 new bus es in the province to transport children, I thought he must have made an error because I didn't think that there were nearly that many, In Neepawa we only have one, in fact there. is only one bus I think in two divisions there, so apparently a lot of the other divisions are going in for central ization and the transportation of the children.

But no mention has yet been made about the roads on which to carry the buses and I believe we will be discussing that under Public Works . That should not be discus sed at this point so I won •t refer tq that anym ore . But as I mentioned in the Throne Speech, I am sorry to see this fight if you want to call it that, of centralization ver sus decentralization, and many members have touched on that very subject.

The Honourable the Minister in his last statement suggested that as regards taxes that it was pretty well depen dent upon which the division board's conduct their affairs and I agree with him lOO% on that one . But since the formation of the school divisions. as I pointed out earlier, it appears to me that the Department of Education will have to get a little rough with some of the school boards within the divisions and at least tell them what he thinks they should do to limit their expenditures with in the division .

Now we received a very interesting summ ary of report of the Maili.toba Royal Commis sion on Education just today and on page 47 there is an inte resting recomm endation on item #6 and it touches on the S. ze of the schools and it seems to me that the resolutions standing on the order paper now in the name of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain that it might correct this situation to some degree . Under # 6 it says the Commis sion sees no objection to the use of auditoria or gymnasia for com munity in addition to school purposes providing {

a) the rem ainder of the school can be completely shut off whell these facilities are being used for non school activities, and {

b) there is not an undue expansion of these facilities only to obtain pro vincial assistance in the building of what are essen tially com munity rather than school facilities . Now that really points up a situation that is developing in the province . Com munity centres ra ther, than schools, and there is no doubt about it that in many areas they are building schools where the ciassroom count actually is probably six but they're building a huge auditorium to ob tain the 75% grant.

I was talking to the chairman of an elementary school board not too long ago -- and -- he was a chairman of the elementary school board not of the school division board -- but he told me of a condition that was going on within the division where one of the board mem bers was just scratching the other fellow's back and so on all the way around and he said as a re sult they were just building 12 room schools about four or five of them within a divis ion . Now that was their intention. They may not proceed with it.

They were building auditoriums about every ten miles apart and so on· just for the express purpose of getting the 75 % grant. And I think as this recomm endation here sugge.sts , that it' s wrong, it isn't needed at all. Now, Mr. Chairman, I know that the Honourable Minister wants to get on to the other items as rapidly as he can and I will probably make further contributions when we reach the other item s. Thank you. MR. MCLEAN : Mr .

Chairman, I just want to make some explanation as I have done on previous occa sions concerning the Dauphin-Ochre school area, because of course, for two reasons --one is that it is my home constituency and one perhaps on which i must be perfectly clear and honest with the House; the sec ond is because of the sort of mystery that always man ages to attach itself to the questions and comm ents of some of the members of the comm ittee . Now it is true that the Dauphin-Ochre school area was formed in 1946 and if the for mation of that area is a tribute to the late Mr. Miller, I have no objection.

I am not too cer tain, in fact I know he wasn't the Minister of Education at that time --indeed it was the late Mr . Dryden who was the Minister of Education--but! am quite indifferent to whom it is attributed. The fact of it is that the school area was formed . Now a school area is based on the idea that a board of trustees, area trustees are elected who are.r esponsible for the financial manage me nt of all the school affairs in the school area both elemen tary and high school in � he area as a unit serves as the basis of taxation for the local tax purposes .

Now associ ated with the in troduction of the school area was a system of school grants which was briefly this: that they received the same grants as other schoo(districts plus 20%, the 20% was known as an induce ment grant, and that was the basis and every time the general floor of school grants rose, of course, the 20% was added upon the increased grants that were payable to that school area. Page 476 February 11th, 1960

(Mr . McLean, cont1d .. .• .... Now when we came to the school division plan, the people of the Dauphin-Ochre school area were naturally interested in what was likely to take place in their situation and, as I reported to this House on a previous occasion, the school trustees and mun icipal councils concerned requested that the vote on the proposed school division be deferred there, and we agreed to that request. The vote was subsequently held as to whether or not they wished to be come a school division or whether they wished to remain as a school area.

And it is a fact that in the vote they voted to retain the school area, and again, if that' s a tribute to the late W. C. Miller fine and dandy with me . I have no complaints . In the mean time, however, you will remember that we discussed in this House making division grants applicable to school areas and the necessa ry legislation was passed to make that a fact.

And the members of the committee and the House will recall that I explained to the House at that time that our plan of school administration envisaged three things, three poss ibilities : The school division within which each local school district continued to operate its elementary school with a division board res.ponsible for high school education; or a school area where the area board was responsi ble for all financial matters and with the local school boards continu ing to exist except that they did not control their financial matters ; and the one district division where you had one board responsible for all education such as for example the municipal school districts of st.

Vital, or the consolidated school districts of Seven Oaks, or the consolidated school district of The Pas (now that isn't the name; I think they call it Kelsey) . Now the point that I explained at that time was that the same system of grants would apply for school purposes in each one of these three and that so far as the government was concerned our policy embraced the poss ibility of those three , and that it was a matter of choice to the local people concerned which they wished have .

The result of the legislation which made division grants applicable to the school area was that from the first of April .1959 school division grants based on the school division legislation was payable to the Dauphin-Ochre school area and would have been payable to any other school area if there had been any in the province . And , as I say, the people of that area voted to retain the school area . Now at the time when they were considering this matter in coming up to the vote, it is true that I was asked the question of what I considered to be the best from the standpoint of the people there .

The question was asked of me at Ochre River and at Sifton, two villages located within the school area, and I said to them that from a tax point of view (and the Committee will remember I was speaking from the standpoint of the places·w here I was speaking) that from a tax point of view because the school are·a is a unit supporting all school activities in the area, that from a tax point of view the people in those communities would be better off under the area system, and indeed, that is a fact, no question about it.

And that was the answer which I gave and I presume that whoever made the report heard me so state and made the report to which reference has been made . But as far as the government policy is concerned, as I have explained, our policy embraces the three poss ibilities and we are perfectly willing to leave the local people concerned to decide which system they wish to operate und er, because in each case, each provides a wide base for local taxation, each provides the necess ary number of students and teachers to provide a good standard of education .

And that was the policy that I stated in the House last summer, that is still the policy and as far as I am concerned, will continue to be the policy in the future . MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, might I ask the Minister if he has any program of education or salesmanship now that the secondary school divisions have been set up, to attempt to get them to agree to what we consider the more ultimate system of divisions of larger areas ?

I noted that even in the Dauphin-Ochre River area they had a vote there and the vote was ''Shall we get away with what we'v e had from the past to this new" -- and my question would be -- and I think it is to .the credit of the people of the Dauphin-Ochre RiYer school area ·•hat they decided to retain what in some people's opinion has been a very shining example of a real system of area of administration here in Manitoba.

We used to from this corner of the House suggest to the former government; we used to criticize them because larger areas hadn't been established, and we criticized them because of the fact that they weren't doing a job of salesmanshi p in an endeavour to point out the full benefits of the larger school system administration. I'm wonder ing if the Minister has any program now that these secondary school districts in many cases are nearly all over the province, with some exceptions, cf course -- we won't go into them -- have February 11th, 1960 Page 477

(Mr . Paulley, cont' d) .. .... the secondary school division. What program, if any, has the government to induce or to sell the larger area school administration in these divisions? MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, we have no program and have not considered that aspect at all. I have been approached by some citizens in one of the divisions enquiring how they might change from a school division to a school area and we are giving them the informa tion that they require but we do not have any program of promotion. MR . PAULLEY: ...... might be considE)red Mr. Chairman, because I think it's very vital.

I think that we have at least the start or the basis of an organization wherein that can be established. We've had discussions here today on the question of tax rates and mill rates and the likes of that as they affect one division, local areas, and local school boards and the other . We've had illustrations of the comparatively high costs of school administration which we haven't even -- in those examples which were given today, I think they were exclusive of the administrative costs of the elementary school boards.

And I think that now that the start has been made, and now that the people of Manitoba in most areas have accepted this, there is an onus on Government, if they believe it -- and I believe they do at least to some degree - believe that the larger school areas of administration are the better, that they should formulate.

And I appreciate the fact that maybe the Minister hasn't had time yet but the very fact that he can say tonight that he's had enquiries, even if it's only in one division, may be an indication that after the secondary school divisions area has been sold that there will be more likelihood of the larger area of school administration being sold. So I would suggest to the Minister that he lend his efforts on attempting to set up a program of salesmanship, to have it readily avail able for the divisions which we have now to have larger areas of school administration such as Dauphin-Ochre River. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr .

Chairman ...... before the Minister answers. to the Honour- able the Leader of the CC F Party since it gives me a chance, I would like to ask the Minister two questions . The Minister has just told us that he spoke to people in Ochre River and in Sifton. Now this news story from the Winnipeg Free Press of October 28, 1959 says this: "Addressing a Public Meeting in Dauphin". I would like to ask the Minister whether he also spoke in Dauphin or whether the story is untrue.

And the second question would be, did the Minister when he spoke to these two or three gatherings, did he express a preference in favour of one system as against the other system? MR. McLEAN: Mr . Chairman, I made four speeches during that time . I was not asked that question at Dauphin and I d.id not answer that question at Dauphin. I was asked the question at Sifton and Ochre River as I have already stated and I gave the answer as I have already stated. I do not think, I do not recall that I was asked my preference in those terms.

I was asked what I considered to be the best system and I said in the plainest possible terms that from a tax point of view the area system was the best for the people to whom I was speaking at that time . What I was doing at that time was explaining as best I could the operation of school divisions in comparison to the operation of school areas . The people there, of course , fully understood the operation of the school area but I was endeavoring to explain the method of operating the school division so that they would understand the differences which were involved. MR. HRYHORCZUK: ..... a question, Mr .

Chairman. Prior to the vote in the Dauphin Ochre area quite a number of ads appeared in The Dauphin Herald, some of them full-page ads, urging the people of the Dauphin-Ochre area to retain the larger unit as it is and not vote for the division. My question is, Mr.· Chairman, did the government pay for or sponsor any of these ads? MR. McLEAN: No . The only ads that appeared paid for and arranged for by the government were the official ads notifying the people of the date and place of voting and the other particulars.

The others were , I have no knowledge of who paid for them except that the Province of Manitoba did not pay for them . HON . GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Secretary) (Fort Rouge): Mr . Chairman, I wonder if I might raise a-point of order at this point for the consideration of the committee . It seems to me that we have a good general discussion.

The Minister, I'm sorry I wasn't able to hear his own statement myself this afternoon, but I do believe. that there has been a good general discussion on the affairs of the education department,_ and I've noticed that all of the debate from the time the Honourable Member for Emerson spoke until now could well have been Page 478 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Evans , cont'd) .•...• classified under school grants . I think it touched on areas and tax ation matters and those could well have been dealt with under school grants . I wonder if the committee would be agreeable at this point to considering further if nece ssa ry anything to do with the administra tion

section , then ask the Chairman if he will call school grants and have any further discussion on that point and then proceed according to the items as listed in the esti mates from the re on. I would be glad to hear the views of the other groups. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr . Chairman, I would like to make a few remarks about the administration of this particular department . I will try and be brief . MR.

EV ANS: I wonde r if I could ask if that method of proceeding then -- on the point of order -- before my honourable friend speaks , if it would be agreeable that now we return from the more general discuss ion and proceed acco rding to items in the estima te s? MR. PAUL LEY: Well Mr . Chairman , there would be no item at all on which I could have raised the question of the government policy of trying to sell the larger areas of sch ool administra tion unless it was unde r the Minister 's salary . There is no item in there. MR. EVANS: I would have thought under school grants , it would have been appropriate. MR.

PAULLEY: No , no , no . Because school grants deal with specific situations and this is a program of selling. MR . EV ANS: I'm just consulting the thing , I'm not criticizing -- I'm not even sugg est ing that what we've been doing is too far out. MR . PA ULLEY: No , no . I agree with you on the point that you raised. I'm very amiable and easy to get along with today. MR. EV ANS: Ye s, I really thought that it was the prerogative of the Irish to have a di spute upon anything upon which one agreed. MR.

CHAIR MAN : Many of these items that had been discussed followed the statement of the Minister dealing with his department at the beginning , which is a sort of a gene ral free for all and outline of the department, and therefore could easily provoke a lot of discussion on general policies and everything concerned with the dep artment.

But it does look now as though after about 4 1/2 hours of discussion, we have fairly well explored all these preliminary por tions and I don't see why we couldn't jus t proceed anyway with No. 1 on Adrr,inistration , and then when we come down we'll have many of these other things that have alre ady been discussed in a general way. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside) : Mr .

Chairman, I an1 sure that that must appear quite logical to you and to a lot of the other member s, but unfortun ately the practice has been in the past that - - it's certainly been honoured very, very definitely here through the years - - that there is a general discussion. And I'm sure that today's dis cussion has been a very brief one compared to what it has been on many occasions on the Mini ster's salary .

I think we 'd better continue the presen t arrangement because I think I can say in the way of comfort for my honourable friend the Mini ste r of Education -- and he is not in need of any great comfort -- that it has been the fact in the past that although there has been a protracted discuss ion on the general item of the Minist er's salary administ ration , that usually after that one has been settled that the others have been at least comparatively brie f.

N<-w that's not a promise as far as I'm concerned or anyone else , or on behalf of anyone else , but I think it would be a mi stake to attempt to change the procedure at this time because the Minist er's salary has been the item for many , many years where we have had these general discuss ions . I think it would be best to stay with that because some of the things that we wish to bring up -- and I have one that I want to talk about -- just are not as much in order on any particular item as they are on this one .

So I'm afraid that even though the time may seem long, some of us would prefer to continue in this way. MR . PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman , I would like to support the statement of the Leader of the Opposition, espec ially in virtue of the fact that this year, and it started last year, there seems to be a lumping-up of certain matte rs . Now I checked my es timates for 1952 last night at home . There were four full pages, breakdowns of expen ses; now this has been reduced this year to one page and three quarters . We have no transportation grant any where, all the grants are lumped together.

In view of this fact , I think we have more reason this year than we have ever had to spend a little more time on the Minist er's salary , and I am sure that the honourable members who were here in previous years, like the Honourable the February 11th, 1960 Page 479

(Mr . Prefontaine , cont' d) ... ... Provincial Secretary, the Honourable the Minister of Public Works, the Honourable Member for Morris, the Honourable Member for Emerson, for Brandon , know very well that we spent approximately three days at times on the Mini ster's salary, and I just cannot see the impatience of these old timers at least today, because we have spent only one day on this matter . MR. EVANS: I didn't give the impression, lVli:. Chairman, of any impatience . I tried to voice this in a most info rmal way.

I asked the other leaders of tiE House if they fe lt that the time had come when the discussion on the Minister's salary could be terminated. My intention certainly had not been to appr oach this in any term of impatience . I merely asked for your view s. I've received them. I did so because three or four speeches in a row dealt with only one subject and those were in my opinion capable of being referred to under grants. If, however, there are other speeches that honourable members feel are so general in nature that they should be given now under the Minister's salary, it is perfectly agreeable with me .

I would suggest that each member of the committee consult his own notes and Sffi whether they are to be confined to one subjec t, or in fact could be divided among two or more subjects , which would then help to get us back on to the divi sion. This is always a diff icult subject. When the Minister opens the discussi on on the estima tes with a general statement on his salary, he is perfectly free to range over every topic, and he does.

And members should have every right to reply to every part of his speech or discuss anything that he ref ers to , so I hope my honourable friend will perhaps take my assurance that ! wasn't impatient and I hope I didn't give the impression that I was . MR. CHAIRMAN ....... .. there is no intention to depart from the order that we have had on the other three . We started with 1, and when we thought that the debate had concluded we were calling No . 1. That's all. There is no wish to crowd anyone . I was just going to call ..... . MR . :[IRYHORCZUK: Mr . Chairma n , as I said, I intend to be very brief .

There are a few matters I think that could bear a little more discussion and I hope to touch on them. I want to commend the Minister for his philos ophy in education. I go along with his thinking pretty well . I think that we will all agree that the country can be rich in natural resources but that country is no greater than the people that live in it, and the people are no better than the education they receive from their home and their church and their school , and so forth. We have no quarrel with that , and I think the very fact, Mr.

Chairman , that the forme r government saw fit to appoint a Royal Commissi on is an admission that it was not satisfied with the educa tion as it was , and was seeking ways and me ans of improving it. That is what this govern ment will do ; that is what every government tries to do . And when that Royal Commis sion was appointed its report did not come in while the government was still in power.

It was taken over by another party , and quite rightly it was up to them to bring that report before thi s House , to study it themselves -- give us the opportunity to study it -- and implement such of the recom mendations as they thought fit and proper. ·we have no quarrel with that whatsoever. We have not followed obstructionist tactics here . It is not our responsibility to obstruct the government in putting in its programs and implementing its polici es, but it certainly is our responsibility, Mr. Ch airman, to point out the weaknesses that appear in the programs and the policie s of the government .

We have heard from the other side of the House the phra se, "Well , you support ed the Bill . Why didn't you oppose the Bill ?" We pointed out the weaknesses in the Bill as we saw them but we would not be fulf illing our duties if we opposed the plans of the government. Our duty is to point out the weaknesses and try to have them corrected as we think fit. Now our friends to the left here , the C CF Party, for the past three weeks or so have been sort of fawni ng and soft-soa ping and their contribution in this House during that time has been more of an opposition to the Offi cial Opposition in the House .

Well to me that strategy can mean nothing else but political expediency , and I say the place to use that is on the hustings and not here . Now we do criticize the manner in which the commission report -- the recommendation s, were implemented. And there is plenty of ground for that criticism . We have said, and we will continue to say, that there was just a little bit too much hurry in implementing those recommendations, or those recommendations that were acceptable to the government. Now, Mr. Chairma n , as an example of what we mean some of our school districts firid them selves Page 480 February 11th, 1960

(Mr . Hryhorczuk, cont'd) •... in pretty difficult financial straights at the moment and I think that part of the situation can be attributed to the Minister. When the division boards were established, I think it was his duty to see that the division boards were given every guidance possible. After all is said and done, this was a new plan. It was a big responsibility and the division boards needed this guidance especially in financial matters. And I say that the Minister failed them in that respect. And why do I say so?

Because if the districts find themselves at the moment in financial difficulties, it is due to the salaries which they have no choice but pay to the teachers. And I say, Mr . Chairman, that the Minister was in the position to give some assistance in this direction to the boards .

And I would refer him to page 49, I believe it is, just till I find it here, page 49 of the report, clause 14 reads as follows: ''That in entering tables 25 and 26" and these are the tables setting out the government grants , "to determine the maximum provincial grant toward any teacher· s salary available to a division in the first year after its establishment". Now that clause is important, "in the first year after its establishment''. Page 49 clause 14, "M erit years completed by the teacher be taken to be one-half of the teacher' s years of teaching service up to but not exceeding 10 years of such service .

Maximum grant in first year is for 5· merit years completed." Now we all know that a lot of these school boards when they came to hire the - division boards came to hire their teachers, they were forced to pay for many more than the 5 years ... ...•. experience. I know of one instance where a teacher's salary was just about doubled because he had 20 years of experience.

Now this was a cheque recommended by the commis sion on very sound ground, and had the Minister told the board that the recommenda tion of the commission was that they were to limit the credits or increments payable to teach ers to 5 years of their experience, the boards would have been in a better bargaining position than they were. If the Minister had, and I think he should have, made it a point to acquaint the division boards with these particular provisions, I am quite sure the situation now would be different than it is . Once again I want to say, Mr .

Chairman, that it is not a matter of obstructing policies or the government. We know that they'll run up against a lot of headaches without obstruction ist tactics on our part, and we don't intend to use them, and we're not using them. But I want to repeat Mr . Chairman, that it is our duty as the Opposition here, and that' s what we're here for, and if we don't point out those weaknesses and criticize the government when we think they should be criticized, then we might as well go home . That is the basis of a party system and that is oti.r duty and we're doing it as we see fit and to the best of our ability.

So when any member of the Liberal side of the House gets up and criticizes the government it's with only one motive - and that is, to improve things and not make them worse. MR . PAU LLEY: For the information of the members, the Consul's tied. up at the end of the eighth end, eight to eight. MR . HRYHORCZUK: For the information of the committee, Mr. Chairman, it's sur prising that the Honourable the Leader of the CCF Party did not agree to us rising today and watching those games, but is spending most of his time finding out what the scores are. MR . PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, that calls for a rebuttal.

I can assure the honourable member who has just spoken, I was away for about an hour this evening because of the fact that there was a group of high school students who wanted to know the role and function of an Opposition group in this Legislature, and knowing that we of the CCF are performing the task of the Opposition they called on me to give them the lecture. I just happened to go out into the corridor for a very good reason and heard the score. MR . PRE FONTAINE : Mr . Chairman, I don't think that the Honourable .. ... MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR . A. H.

CORBETT (Swan River): Mr . Chairman, my mental processes are rather slow and I am not familiar with all the rules of parliamentary procedure at present and I have been laboring under a slight delusion here all this evening and part of yesterday, that we were concerned with passing some estimates. But the Honourable Member for Carillon has educated me greatly. He has explained that in the past these a.rguments, debates, have gone on for as much as three days.

I ain always interested in sporting events and having read the papers about these long-distance walkathons in England, each one trying to beat the other one, and if he wants ·us to set out a record here I'm all for it, so I thought I would contribute my February 11th, 1960 Page 481

(Mr . Corbett, cont' d) ...... little bit towards lengthening this debate, so that we may establish some -- go down on the records as being something worthwhile . But while I am on my feet I would like to make a comment or two on some of the re marks of some of the previous gentlemen; the Member for st. John's, he' s not in his seat at the pres ent time.

But he criticized (Interjection) -- he criticized and brought in a lot of figures about those attending the teachers' college , that there was a larger percen tage of them had not a complete Grade xn, and he pointed out to us or we were led to assume that that was a very bad feature. I cannot say that I think it is because a lot of those Grade XI students probably had failed on one subject and I couldn't see any good reason in holding them back a whole year on account of one sub ject .

It's quite pos sible that there were students with a clear Grade xn that might have failed on one subject or even two, by two or three marks, while there are quite a number in Grade XI I that just passed those examinations by one or two marks . Don't look so worried Mr. Chairman, if I seem a little irrelevant because I think I'm in line with a lot of the othe rs around the Chamb er . But in any event I myself, when I went to University, I think the first year in University I had three supps ., but I was privileg ed to write them off before following term started, and in that way I was not delayed a full year .

So I can't see that that point he raised as being detrimental to our educational system by allowing some Grade XI students -- or not a clear Grade xn with probably one or two sub jects to carry. I think that' s quite desirable and quite beneficial to the welfare of our teaching fraternity .. And the other thing is that the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, he brought in some figures, partial figures . I rather object to these partial statist ics . He mentions a certain man with his taxes raised 196 --was it -- 163 dollars .

Well that' s quite possi ble but the inference that he drew from that was , that what was responsible for most of that increase was this divisional system that we've brought in. And I think if he had given the exact figures of what the taxes had been the previous year, what portion of it was devoted to educational purposes he would have given us a truer figure of what the actual increase in that man' s taxes were as being responsible -- held responsible by the divisional plan . Now that's the only sensible observation I have to make at the present time .

The rest of the time -- I'm anxious along with the Honourable Member for Carillon to see if we possi bly might be establish ing a record here that might stand for all time . And I feel that there 's a lot of able and brill iant speakers -- much more brilliant than I am -- because I don't make any pretense of being brilliant, but if we all let down our hair and go good, I think we can set a record of probably four days on this - before we get to this first item . I thank you . MR . PRE FONTAINE : I would like to contribute just one more minute to this record that we're trying to establish .

I was on my feet just to say to my honourable friend the Leader of the CCF Party that I for one do not believe that he is an expert in telling the stud ents what the duties of the Op position are, because according to their record in the past ten days the CCF Opposition has been giving the governmm t not critical opposition but critical co-operation and I don't think that' s the duty of the Opposition . MR. PAULLEY: I don't think that I said I was an expert on it. I think I did say that it's evident to most that our group is the most qualified in this House to lead an Op position . (Hear, hear !) MR .

SCHREYER: Briefly put, Mr . Chairman, I would just like to say to the Honour able Member for Swan River that the figures which I quoted are true figures . I am prepared to explain them to him , and just for the record I would like to say that I did in no way use partial figures to try and convey some impression. The taxes went up $163 insofar as the education portion of the tax statement was concerned.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-18a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 18a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e276c09d1dddd5e517e13287c9d85d15b994120c

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