Manitoba Committee Hansard — 5 March 1992 (Legislative Affairs Committee, Sitting 1, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-la1

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on LAW AMENDMENTS 39-40 Elizabeth II Chairperson Mrs. Louise Dacquay Constituency of Seine River VOL. XLI No.1· 7 p.m., THURSDAY, MARCH 5, 1992 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0713·9586

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS,C iif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW AMENDME NTS Thursday, March 5,1992 TIME-7p.m. LOCATION-Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRPERSON- Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River) ATTENDANCE-11 -QUORUM -6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. Enns, McCrae, Hon. Mrs. Mitchelson Ms. Barrett, Mrs. Carstairs, Mr. Chomiak, Mrs. Dacquay, Messrs. Lamoureux, McAlpine, Reimer, Sveinson APPEARING: Judy Wasylycia-Le is, St. Johns WITNESSES: Jean Altemayer, Choices Jenny Robinson, Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women Kathleen Beatson, The Federal P .C.

Women's Caucus of Winnipeg and Districts Margaret Murray, Private Citizen Brenda Leipsic, Private Citizen Marilyn Gault, Chairperson, Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Roz Krahn, Private Citizen Grace lvey, Private Citizen Barbara Thompson, Private Citizen Cathy Doyle, Private Citizen Monika Feist, The Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba Hilde Schu rho ff, Immigr ant Women's Association of Manitoba Bender, M.A. - Private Citizen Bloomfield, Wendy - Private Citizen Brazzell, E.M. - Private Citizen Brooks, Lesia - Private Citizen Bruyere, Linda - Private Citizen Buza, Marianne - Private Citizen Cameron, Beverly - Private Citizen Cameron, Tina - Private Citizen Campbell, Fay - Private Citizen Challinor, Lisa - Private Citizen Chik, Cecilia - Private Citizen Clarke, Heather - Private Citizen Clayton, Jan - Private Citizen Cremers, Jacky - Private Citizen Cremers, Rita - Private Citizen Cuming, Donna C. • Private Citizen Fawcett, Diana - Private Citizen Findlay, JoAnne - Private Citizen Aaws, Patricia - Private Citizen Fontaine, Tracy - Private Citizen Fraser, Susan- Private Citizen Friesen, Bernice - Private Citizen Friesen, Valerie - Private Citizen Gallant, Maria - Private Citizen Gibson, Jan - Private Citizen Ginter, Valerie - Private Citizen Gray, Jean - Private Citizen Holder, Rachael - Private Citizen Holl, Darlene - Private Citizen Hunt, Gail - Private Citizen 1 Written Submissions Presented But Not Read Albuquerque, Cheryl - Private Citizen Anderson, Jean - Private Citizen Archambault, Liz - Private Citizen Issues Committee - Board of North End Women's Centre Barnsley, Sue - Private Citizen Jack son, Betty - Private Citizen

2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 Jesm er, Mary Ann - Private Citizen Johns, Gloria - Private Citizen Kilborn, Laura - Private Citizen Kiristias, Nellie - Private Citizen L'Heureux, Laurette - Private Citizen Landa, R.M. - Private Citizen Lavallee, Roland - Private Citizen LeClaire, Susan- Private Citizen Legault-Desmier, Suzanne- Private Citizen MacJo nes, Beryle - Private Citizen Marchuk, Laurie - Private Citizen Marion, Donna - Private Citizen Matsukubo, Susan - Private Citizen Meilleur, Gisele - Private Citizen Mem bers of - Aboriginal Women's Unity Coalition Members of - lkwewak Justi ce Society Members of - Original Women's Network, Inc.

Mitchel l, Shelley - Private Citizen Moar, Yvonne- Private Citizen Moser, Paulette - Private Citizen Motheral, Violet M. - Private Citizen Nash, Lorna - Private Citizen Nishimura, Maggie- Private Citizen Paterson, Cecille - Private Citizen Reilly, Louise - Private Citizen Rhodenyir, Cindy - Private Citizen Sawicki, Leo - Private Citizen Shanks, Rosemary - Private Citizen Shore, Beth - Private Citizen Stalker, Dr.

Jac queline - Director, Canadian Congress for Learnin g Opportunities for Women Staff of - Women's Employment Counselling Services & Immigrant Women's Employment Counselling Services Stoodley, Shirley - Private Citizen Tao, Kai - Private Citizen Taylor, Geri - Private Citizen Taylor, Lorraine- Private Citizen Terendale, Jean - Private Citizen Thomasson, Shirley - Private Citizen Turner, Lorraine - Private Citizen Vivier, Carmel - Private Citizen Zimmerman, Carolyn - Private Citizen Zubren, Marion - Private Citizen Allen, Laurie - Private Citizen Auriti, Dina - Private Citizen Betts, Sharena - Private Citizen Blennerhassett, Hazel - Executive Director, Women's Post Treatment Center Inc.

Bublick, Renate - Private Citizen Cumew, Betty - Private Citizen Edwar ds, Arlene - Private Citizen Gagne-O uellette , Murielle - Directrice generale Pluri-elles (Manitoba) Inc.

Hatton, Glenda - Private Citizen Hatton, Shannon - Private Citizen Hodgson, Dianne - Private Citizen Issues Committee - Board of North End Women's Centre Jones, M.F. - Private Citizen Kenny, Marilyn - Private Citizen Langevin, Linda - Private Citizen Lee-Matthys, Francine - Private Citizen MacKenzie, J.A.M. - Private Citizen Marion, Donna - Private Citizen Mathes, Gloria - Private Citizen Noseworthy, Val - Private Citizen Ojah, lnranny - Private Citizen Ojah, Korstin - Private Citizen Ojah, Pat - Private Citizen Paragas, Elsa - Private Citizen Parker, Gwen - Executive Secretary, Manitoba Women's Institute Ricketts, Eileen - Private Citizen Riffell, Sharri - Private Citizen Seunarine, I - Private Citizen

March 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3 Spink s, Sharon - Fo rt Garry Women's Resource Centr e Suaha, Ja ckie - Private Citizen Sullivan, Patti - Executive Director, Klinic Community Health Centre Steiman, Laura - The Elizabeth Fry Society of Manitoba Wood, Kathleen MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Bill 5- The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Amendment Act Bill 7- The Real Property Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Bill �The Garnishment Amendment Act Bill 4� The Jury Amendment Act *** Clerk of Commit tees (M s. Patricia Chaychuk-Fitzpatrlck): Order, please.

Will the Standing Committee on Law Amendments please come to order. The committee must proceed to elect a Chairperson. Are there any nominations for the position of Chairperson? Mr. Gerry McAlpin e (Sturgeon Creek) : I nominate Mrs. Dacquay of Seine River. Madam Clerk: Mrs. Dacquay has been nominated. Are there any further nominations? If not, Mrs. Dacquay, you have been elected Chairperson. Please come take the Chair. Madam Chair per son: Order, please.

This eve ning the Standing Commi ttee on Law Amendment s will be considering Bill 5, The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Amendment Act; Bm 7, The Real Property Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Bill 8, The Garnishment Amendment Act; and Bill 46, The Jury Amendment Act. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Chairperson, as we look at the bills before us we see four bills, if I am correct. Bill?, BillS and Bill 46 stand in my name. I understand that there are no presenters respecting those bills and with respect to Bill 5 there are a number of presenters.

I would not make the following request except that I do not know whether we are going to finish up fully tonight, and I am not sure tonight about my availability on Tuesday when this committee would ordinarily finish the work. I also understand, my feeling is that Bills 7, 8 and 46 might not take very long to dispose of. If we could deal with those bills up-front and then hear the presentations, I do not know. It would depend of course on my honourable colleagues, but I do not know how long their questioning will take but I do not expect it to be very long.

If there would be agreement to deal with Bills 7, 8 and 46 clause by clause and then to proceed to Bill 5, I would appreciate that accommodation on the part of honourable members and others. Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): I do not think that we have a problem with accommodating the minister. My only concern is that there are a fair amount of people from the public here, and I wonder if there are people who have some time constraints as well who might want to make a presentation earlier who might be required to be somewher e else.

We might want to accommodate them perhaps, in or der to then allo w th e mi nister to be accommodated. * (1 905) Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): I understand from the Liberal Party's perspective , it is fine to proceed with these bills. We do not have any amendmen ts. If the New Dem ocratic Party does have amen dment s, however, then I would think we would do them in order of number. If they have no amendments to the bills that are standing in the name of the Attorney General, then I would suggest that we could pass them in a matter of 10 minutes. Mr.

McCrae: I am not aware if the New Democrats have any amendments. If there is anyone here, of course, that has some need to get away right away or something like that, we might want to hear about that. Certainly, from what I have heard, it appears to me that these bills might be disposed of very quickly, in a matter of minutes.

Madam Chairperson: I would just like to request permission from the commit tee members to ascertain that there is absolutely no one in the audience this evening that is here to make-w e have had no indication at this point in time that there is anyone wanting to make public representation on these bills, but I would like to get it on the record and clarify in case someone has shown this evening, because they have every right to speak. Is there anyone in the audience this evening who is desirous of speaking on Bills 7, 8 or 46?

4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 Seeing no indication, I would assume that it is correct for the committee to assume that there is no public representation. What is the will of the committee? Mr. Chomlak: I am sorry, Madam Chairperson, I think we should canvass the group here-1 do not know if that has been done-i f there is anyone who has to go away early or has to leave shortly if they want to make a presentation on Bill 5. Perhaps we should canvass them first ju st to ensure. That is all. Madam Chairperson: What is the will of the committee?

Proceed with the bills that come under the Ministry of Justice expeditiously first? Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, I ju st quickly want to say thank you to my colleagues and everyone for their forbearance. I do not expect this will take very long. Madam Chairperson: I assume, Mr. Minister, you do not want to make any opening statements, that we want to move expeditiously through the bill clause by clause? Mr. McCrae: I do not think I have need to unless there are questions that come forward, and I will be happy to respond to questions.

I have staff here from the various departments involved to assist me. 81117-The Real Property Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Chairperson: Bill 7 (The Real Property Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les biens reels). Do the critics from the official opposition party and the second opposition party wish to make any opening statements? I have had indication of no from the opposition party. Mrs. Carstairs or Mr. Lamoureux, is it the wish of the Liberal Party to make an opening statement? No? Okay. We shall now proceed to the bill clause by clause for consideration, and if it is the will of the comm i1tee, I also, to expedite it, will lump the clauses by page. We shall now proceed to clause-by-clau se consideration. During the con sideration of the bill, the title and the

preamble of course are postponed until all the other clauses have been dealt with. Is i1 the will of the committee to pass Clauses 1, 2 and 3? Mr. Chomlak: Just one quick question with respect to the Clause 3 amendment. In my reading of the original act, i1 appeared to me that the basic wording does not basically alter the act at all as it presently exists. What is the purpose of the amendment of the wording in

Section 30(5)? • (1 910 ) Mr. McCrae: According to the land titles authority in Manitoba, the proposed amendment would permit the district registrar to vacate a claim, reservation or interest without notice on an application to bring land under The Real Property Act where the instrument is a mineral lease which specifies an expiry date, period of time or extension of time and the same has expired, or it is clear from the face of the record that the claim, reservation or interest has expired or has been extinguished. Prior to this, notice was required.

The change here is that this can be done without notice because these agreements have expiry dates on them, and i1 is clear that they are spent or over. Madam Chairperson: Clauses 1, 2 and 3-- pass; Clauses 4(1 ), 4(2), 5, 6(1 )- pass. Shall Clause 6(2), Clause 7, Clause 8(1 ), Clause 8(2), Clause 8(3), page 3-- Mr. Chomlak: Madam Chairperson, with respect to Clause 7, it is my understanding that formerly the agent who registered the instrument was not entitled to discharge it. Is that why this amendment is in here? Mr. McCrae: That is correct, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson : Clau se 6(2), Clau se 7, Clauses 8(1 ), 8(2) and 8(3) on page 3--pass; Clause 9, Clauses 10 (1), 10 (2), Clause 11, Clause 12 on page 4-pass. Mrs. Carstalrs: I jus t have a ques tion of procedure. When you are going through these, some of these clauses are carrying over onto another page. We are not passing, it would seem to me by your wording, those. I want to ensure that we are in fact doing that. Madam Chairperson: My understanding is that we can indeed block groups of clauses. Mrs. Carstalrs: I know we can block groups of clauses.

Madam Chairperson: It does not have to conform to the page on which the clause falls, because I am doing it by the individual clause. I am only citing the page number for the benefit of the committee's reference.

March 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5 Mrs. Carstalrs: Fine. Mr. Chomlak: Madam Chairperson, just a simple question on the amended 13 , and that is that formerly I understand the registrar did have that power, but now we are saying that the registrar does not have to publish any kind of notice. Just for practical purposes, do we have any indication of the frequency of this kind of- ju st in general. Mr.

McCrae: Madam Chairperson, I am advised that it is a very hard question to answer, because it is not that it happens frequently or does not happen frequently, but with the vacating of these caveats, with or without notice, it is a situation where the caveat has expired or been extinguished in any event. Madam Chairperson: Clauses 13 , 14(1 ), 14(2), 15 and 16 -pass; Shall Clauses 17 (1 ), 17(2), 18 (1 ) and 18 (2) pass? Mr. Ke vin Lamour eux {Inkster ): Madam Chairperson, I am wondering if the minister can tell me about

Section 265 being repealed. What does that do to The City of Winnipeg Act? Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, this City of Winnipeg Act amendment is consequential to the Clause 2 which repeals

Section 18 of The Municipal Act, The Real Property Act. It is a consequential amendment to what we are doing with regard to titles outside the city of Winnipeg. Registration of titles also applies to the city of Winnipeg. Madam Chairperson: Clauses 17 (1 ), 17 (2), 18 (1 ) and 18 (2)- pass;

Preamble-pass; Title-pass. Bill be reported. * (1 91 5) Bill 8- The Garnishment Amendment Act Madam Chairperson: We will now proceed to Bill 8 (The Garnishment Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia saisie-arret) . Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, in this case I have a very brief comment which might help as we go through the bill. This bill dealing with The Garn ishmen t Amendm ent Act concer n s the garnishment of wages. It will ensure that an employer who has paid its employees by postdated cheque and who is then served with a garnishing order will not have to recall the cheque or put a stop payment on it in order to comply with the order. The amendment clarifies the law and makes the act easier for all Manitoba employers, including the government of Manitoba, to administer.

Madam Chairperson: Do either of the oppo sition parties wish to make an opening statement? No. Clauses 1 , 2 and 3- pass; Clauses 4, 5 and 6(1 )-p ass; Clause 6.2, at the bottom of page 3, for reference-Claus e 6(2)-pass; Clauses 7, 8 and 9- pass.

Preamble-pass; Title-pass. Bill be reported. 811146-The Jury Amendment Act Madam Chai rperson : Bi ll 46 (The Jur y Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les jures), does the min ister wish to make an open ing statement? Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, very briefly and just in response to a couple of issues raised, as I recall, by the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), at second reading. I believe the honourable member made some reference to placing these amendments in our Employment Standards legislation. That would allow an application to the Labour Board.

We looked at this as a department and decided not to do this as such legislation does not contain provisions for reinstatement, and we want to ensure that nobody loses his or her job because he or she has to serve on a jury. We think that what we are proposing here provides more solid protection than our Employment Standards legislation provides. The amendment to The Jur y Act requires an employer to reinstate, and, as a matter of fact, in this case, Ontario legislation was used as our model. * (1 920) This bill arises because I got a letter from the Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench.

One of the judges of that court reported to the Chief Justice that, I believe it was in Thompson, there was a case where an employer actually let an employee go because that employee had to serve on a jury. This is our first opportunity to do something about that. We do not know of this happening very much, but I think jury duty is important enough to us as citizens to enshrine some kind of protection for people who are called upon to perform that civic duty. And that is why we have this legislation. Madam Chairperson: Do either of the opposition parties wish to make opening statements?

Clauses 1, 2 and 3- pass; Clauses 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 -pass; Clau ses 11, 12.1 , 12 .2 and

6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 13-pass; Clauses 14, 15 , 16 (1 ), 16 (2), 16 (3), 17 , 18 and 19- pass; Clauses 20, 21 and 22-pass.

Preamble-pass; Title-pass. Bill be reported. Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, I am glad we were able to do this as expeditiously as we were, and again I thank everyone for their co-opera tion. Bill 5-- The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Amendment Act Madam Chair person: Orde r, please. This eve ning the St anding Comm ittee on Law Amendments will now be considering Bill 5, The Manitoba Advisory Counci l on the Status of Women Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Conseil consultatif manitobain de Ia situation de Ia femme). It is ou r custom to hea r br iefs before the consider ation of bills. What is the will of the committee? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Chairperson: Agreed. I have a list of persons wishing to appear before this committee this evening.

The list is as follows, and I will read it: 1) Jenny Robinson from the Manitoba Action Committee on the Statu s of Women; 2) Laura Steiman from the Elizabeth Fry Society; 3) Kathleen Beatson from The Federal PC Women's Caucus of Winnipeg and Di stricts; 4) Margaret Murray, Private Citizen; 5) Brenda Leipsic, Private Citizen; 6) Marilyn Gault, Chairperson, Manitoba Advisory on the Status of Women; 7) Mrs.

Roz Krahn, Private Citizen; 8) Beverly Suek, Private Citizen; 9) Grace lvey, Private Citizen; 1 0) Barbara Thompson, Private Citizen; 11) Cathy Doyle, Private Citizen; 12) June Altemayer, Choices; 13 ) Monika Feist, The Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba. At this time, I would like to ask if there is anyone else present in the room whose name I have not yet read who would wish to make a presentation this evening, and whose name has not appeared on my list. I would ask that you contact our Clerk of the Committees, and she will ensure that your name is added to the list.

If persons who are making presentation this evening have written copies of their presentations, we would appreciate it if you would also pass them on to our Committee Clerk so that she could ensure that the presentations are handed out at the time the oral presentation is given to the committee, so that each member of the committee will have a copy. I would also like to inform the committee this evening that a number of written submissions have been received with regard to Bill 5. These submissions have been submitted to members of the committee.

There is a list of the submissions that were received, and the list totals 1 08 in number. Is it the will of the comm ittee to have these submi ssions included in the Hansard of this committee meeting? Agreed? * (1 925) Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Chairperson: Agreed and so ordered. Does the committee wish to use time limits on the length of public presentations? What is the will of the committee? Some Honourable Members: No. Madam Chairperson: No? No.

Does the committee wish to indicate to the presenters how late this committee is prepared to sit this evening, or is it the will of the committee that the public representations be concluded? An Honourable Member: Completed. Madam Chairperson: It has been expressed that the will of the comm ittee is that all public representations this evening be heard. At this point in time, I have an indication that there is one presenter, who is No. 12 on the list, who has requested to have her presentation heard first due to another com mitment. I un ders tand her presentation is two pages in length.

Is it the will of the committee to have Jean Altemayer make her presentation first? An Honourable Member: Agreed. Madam Chairperson: Agreed. I will now call upon Jean Altemayer to come forward and make your presentation please. Do you have a written copy of your presentation, Jean? Ms. Jean Altemayer (Choices): No. Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your attendance here this evening. Please proceed. Ms. Altemayer: I appreciate being bumped ahead. I did not actually have to go first, but I will get it out of the way this way. I apologize for my voice, I am fighting the Winnipeg cold.

I am appearing here tonight on behalf of Choices. We would like to register our objection to the intended name change to the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Statu s of Women. Changing the name of the council to any

March 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 7 name that does not reflect the work of this agency completely and accurately serves to trivialize the role of this agency. It is interesting, in today's Winnipeg Sun- which is not my bible-o n page 3 it shares some of the issues about this, and quotes the chair of the Advisory Counc il, indicating that-w ell actually, I am not sure whether this is a quote-but it indicates in the

article that the suggested change would result in the acronym, SWACM, which is not seen as appropriate. If you look at the name change that is being put forward , which is Women's Advisory Council of Manitoba, it is WACM, so I am not sure that there is that much difference. This proposed name change raises more questions than it answers. It is vague, does not indicate which issues, specifically, this body is supposed to be concerned with. It leaves open to conjecture the nature of the issues that are of paramount concern to wo men.

As we know, the range of issues said to be women's issues-w hich is already a ghettoization-c an be defined very broadly. This proposed name does not indicate the reality that this body is supposed to concern itself very specifically with the status of women. The change could cause people to ask questions such as, is this a ladies auxiliary? Is this a body that presumes to advise women on when and where their best interests are served by the government and not in fact on the status of women?

In addition to cr eating a name which is unne cessarily ambiguous, the proposed change may put at risk the very existence of the organization itself. We have seen a backlash in North America against feminism systematically, deliberately, by the far righ t in the United St ates under the administrations of both Reagan and Bush. The prevailing pattern of dismantling what have been urgently needed programs and services to women are preceded by seemingly innocuous changes to language.

For example, many universities in the State s elim in ated their women' s studies departments, but only after depoliticizing them first by changing their names from feminist studies to wom en's stud ies, and then declaring them redundant. •

(1930) This pattern was also manifest in the family values agenda of both the Bush and Reagan campaigns, and that was later articulated through sweeping cuts to women's programs in keeping with attitudes about the proper role of women in North American life. Similar patterns can be seen in Canada when our federal govern ment launc hes su pposed in itiatives on the issue of children's poverty. Children's poverty is of paramount importance, we all agree.

However, any initiative that focuses on the children and not on the parents, particularly on the moms, seems to be an attempt to gain political mileage on the backs of kids, while avoiding the obvious conclusion that children are poor because their parents are poor . We know, I do not need to tell this group, that it is primarily poor mothers, and that does not mean the quality of the mothering. This proposed name change also would have the injurious effect of obscuring the fact that the status of women continues to remain disparate from that of men.

Is it only coincidence that we are moving toward a trend of altering our language to obscure the realities of the nature of women's concerns? As well, we wish to respond to the comments, again quoted in the Sun, of the current Status of Women minister, where she feels that in fact having hearings like this, getting people energized, angry, annoyed and showing up is a bit of a waste of time given the other issues that are confronting women.

We do not agree that it is a waste of time to halt what can be perceived as a backlash against women, but we do wonder why this particular piece of legislation would be the first one to be advanced by the minister since she assumed her portfolio in September of 1990. It seems to us there are a number of critical, outst anding issues that could have been approached first, issues dealing with pay equity, issues dealing with the Pedlar report. The very first recommendation in the Pedlar report calls for the formal declaration of Manitoba as a zero-to lerance, violence-free zone.

This would have represented, it seems to us, an important resolution to bring before the House. There are many issues that we would expect the minister and an advisory council that is a body of government to bring forward . We would have hoped to see leadership and participation in issues rising out of the aboriginal women'.s community.

There have been a number of such issues, and we are in the midst of one now-some sense of solidarity with the kind of silencing that is going on in that community would seem to be an appropriate, proper, crucial, vital role for both the minister and for the Advisory Council; as well, curious about how

8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 ef fectively the Advisory Council is modelling affirm ative action implementation in its hiring policies; similarly, wondering about the kinds of policies affecting the Women's Directorate and its hiring. We certainly look forward to the action of the minister on what we would consider to be much more important issues and would like her and the council to know that Choices will be launching a declaration against violence on May 9, which is the day before Mother's Day. Madam Chairpe rson : Thank yo u for your presentation. Would you be prepared to answer questions?

Ms. Altemayer: Sure. Madam Chairperson: There may be questions of the committee members. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): I want to thank you very much for your presentation. There is just one point of clarification that I would like to make before other questions get asked. I think you indicated that the proposed name change was the Women's Advisory Council of Manitoba, and for clarification, the act in the legislation is the Manitoba Women's Advisory Counc il. I just wanted to clarify that for the record. Mrs. Carstalrs: I would like to ask Ms.

Altemayer if she believes that there needs to be a name change, in that the present initials are confusing with the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women; and, if she believes that, does she have an idea, a suggestion for an appropriate name which would not con fuse the public, as seems to be happening at the present time? Ms. Altemayer: It seems to me that since the primary function of this committee is the status of women, what is wrong with Status of Women Committee? I know the Action Committee is going after me, and they may well want to respond to that. Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Do you see any particular negative outcomes or possible negative outcomes if the "Status of Women" is not retained in the title of this committee? Ms. Altemayer: I do not know that I can add anything beyond what we have said. As soon as you start putting in "advisory," people immediately zone out, in that we no longer have to listen. We see this consistently being done in terms of trying to lower authority, power, mandate, whatever. You take people away from being policy into advisory. So I would be concerned about that.

If in fact the focus of this committee is on the status of women, then that is what should be reflected in the title so people know what the committee is about and that it remains focused on that. I mean, it is incredibly depressing that we even have to have a department that talks about the status of women. If systems were working equitably and fairly, one would not need a status of women department, but the truth is women are continuing to be treated differently and therefore you have to set them off. Mr.

Chomlak: I ju st want to clarif y, in your presentation, I think I understand it correctly, the bottom line is regardless what the name change ultimately results in and regardless-pro viding it is not a ridiculous acronym-your bottom line is the words "Status of Women" must be retained in the name in order to signify the purpose of the organization. Ms. Altemayer: Unless the pu rpose of the committee has changed, it seems to me those are the key words. Mr. Chomlak: Thank you. Mada m Cha irper son : Are the re further questions? If not, thank you very much for your presentation.

Jenny Robinson, Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women. Do you have copies of your presentation? Ms. Jenny Robinson (Man itoba Action Committee on the Status of Women): I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here tonight. Madam Chairperson: I wonder if you might just wait 30 seconds to afford the Clerk an opport unity to distribute the copies of your brief. You may proceed, Jenny. Ms. Robinson: I am here on behalf ofthe Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women.

The Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women is a nonprofit, volunteer organization that works through political action and public education to improve the status of women. The Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women is a provincial organization. There are branches in Thompson, Dauphin, Brandon and Winnipeg. The Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of

March 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 9 Women has been operating in Manitoba for 21 years. As you well know, there exists confusion around the name of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Wo men and the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women. Both use the common acronym MACSW. The acronym MACSW has been in the public domain as representing the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women for 21 years. It is common for our members and the general public to associate the acronym with the Action Committee rather than the Advisory Cou ncil. When the acronym is used for the Advisory Council instead of the Action Committee, much confusion arises. ..

(1940) The Action Committee receives regular inquiries from members of the general public who think they have reached the Advisory Cou ncil 's of fice . Though it is not difficult for us to redirect the misguided inquiries, I believe it is very disconcerting for the public. There is further complication. It is common to have represent atives from both the Action Committee and the Advisory Council in attendance at public meetings, on boards and committees throughout the province, as both organizations have common concerns.

Often MACSW is used to describe Advisory Council represe ntatives in minutes and public documents, thus causing further consternation for the public and the media. In principle, the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women does support Bill 5. In fact, the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women has in the past made formal requests that the Advisory Council consider a name change. However, the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women has some concern over the selected name.

Obviously, the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council of Manitoba-! had flipped them around because I received Hansard, and that was the way it was recorded in there. That is why I am here today. Language is a very important aspect of the development of feminism and the rights of women and our ability to further increase our status as residents and participants in Canadian society. How we communicate with each other plays an important role in how we perceive and treat each other. Langu age influences the perception of power, authority and priority.

The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women, as a name, describes a commitment to the women of this province, a commitment to work for the improved status of women. The suggested name, Women's Advisory Council of Manitoba, falls short of describing any mandate, nor does it really impart any power to the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Therefore, by removing the "Status of Women" from the Manitoba Advisory Coun cil's name dimin ishes the power that the Advisory Council holds.

To remove the "Status of Women," in fact, seems to remove the mandate of the organization, and I quote from the mandate, reading: to advise the government of Manitoba on matters relating to the status of women. The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women is only a part of the larger community working to improve the status of women in this province. The women's community as a whole is very fragile with limited power, so a name change that will deplete the modicum of power is significant to the women's community as a whole.

If we examine this suggested name change in the context of the larger political picture, we can see that this is only a part of the depletion of power for women within the provincial government. The cancellation of the competition for assistant depu ty minister position with the Wo men 's Directorate and the political appointment of Theresa Harvey to that position, a person completely unknown to the women's community of Manitoba, is an embarrassment to the women of this province.

The removal of Marilyn Kenny from the position of Director of Apprenticeship and Training is also a significant blow to the work that has been done by the women of this province. Marilyn Kenny has developed a national reputation in a field dominated by men. She has worked vigorously to support wom en as trade workers. She has made a difference to the status of women. !f we highlight these most recent events, the Film on government falls short of cr eating any status for women. In fact, it would appear they are diminishing it.

This is the reason for the "Status of Women" to remain as part of the name of the Advisory Council. Thank you.

10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 Madam Chairperson: Jenny, wou ld yo u be prepared to respond to questions? There may be questions of the committee members. Ms. Robinson: Yes, I would. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Jenny, for your presentation. I would like to ask you whether in fact you have read the opening comments and the introduction of the legislation that does indicate very clearly that there is no change to the mandate of the Advisory Counc il. I would just like to know whether you were aware that that was stated very clearly as government direction in the introduction of the bill. Ms.

Robinson: I have read it. Working in the public is very di fferent than working with legislation. People perceive things very differently than they are written often. The people in the public domain often do not have access to what is written in legislation. They do, of course, have access to It, but it is not common to their lives. I think that by avoiding the use of the "Status of Women" it leaves room for error in the

interpretation of what that agency does by the public. Ms. Barrett: Ms. Robinson, it has been suggested by some people that changing the name to the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council will provide a broader perspective on issues. Would you agree with that or would you care to comment on that point that has been brought out in favour of the change in the law's title? Ms. Robinson: We had a lengthy discussion about this last night at one of our meetings. Language is so crucial to what has been accomplished.

I cannot reiterate enough how important it is to maintain that phrase, I think, in the name of the Advisory Council. It allows us to interpret something other than a general nebu lous organization that might deal with- people's

interpretation of the name that has been put forward has been fairly negative. I have not met one person who has a positive response to it yet. I am sure there are people who agree with the name obviously, but it does not have a mandate in it. It does not show a purpose. I do not think it is worthy of the women who work there nor what they are representing. Mr. McCrae: The last page of your written presentation, you refer to the appointment of Teresa Harvey to the position as Assistant Deputy Minister with respect to the Women's Directorate as a political appointment.

I am not sure I understand how you conclude that is a political appointment. I take it, I assume, that if someone, for example, was hired directly out of the Premier's office or someone working in, by definition, a political job in the Premier's office and hired directly to a position like the position to which Ms. Harvey has been directed, I take it you would see that as a political appointment as well. Ms. Robinson: Yes. Mr. McCrae: You would also condemn that kind of a move. Ms. Robinson: I am not condemning. I think that Ms. Harvey-there are probably better candidates for appointmen t in the co mm un ity.

If the government had chosen to appoint someone from another position within the government, they probably could have made a better selection. Mr. McCrae: Do I take that to be a comment on Ms. Harvey's qualifications then for the job? Ms. Robinson: As far as I understand, Ms. Harvey has never worked in the women's community. The Women' s Directorate , I think, plays a really important

part in how women can actually access power within the government and talk abou t programs and policies. If a person has not worked in the field of the women's community to really see what is out there, I think it is hard to make comment on what the government is doing truly. I am sure Ms. Harvey has some wonderful qualifications, but I do not see her qualifications relating to the status of women. Mr.

McCrae: I guess, I just repeat that, should someone working as a political staffer in a premier's office be appointed to a position like this, without competition, you would view that as a political appointment and therefore inappropriate. Ms. Robinson: A political appointment in that she has been appointed through the politics of this government; through the political system she has been appointed. The cancella tion of the competition for people to apply from the public is really unpleasant for many people in the women's community. Mr.

McCrae: I take it you believe that a competition is appropriate for a position like this. Ms. Robinson : Yes. Mr. McCrae: Thank you. * (1 950)

March 5, 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 Mrs. Carstalrs: Obviously we are struggling with an appropriate name that also does not come into conflict with your well-k nown and well- accredited organization. It is tough to run a name by you and say, is this going to conflict, but Ms. Altemayer suggested Status of Women Council. Is Status of Women Council sufficiently removed from your organization? Do you believe that the same confusion that exists now would not exist? Ms. Robinson Actually, that is the name that we came up with as an alternative , Status of Women Council/Manitoba.

I think that is a more common name used across Canada, wher e they just attach the province at the end as opposed to making it part of the whole name. Mr. Chomlak: Madam Chairperson, although you made the point in your paper, I just want to reiterate again the bottom line with respect to the name is the crucial descriptive and important terms that must be in the name is The Status of Women, correct? Ms. Robinson: Yes. Madam Chairperson: Th ank you for your presenta tion. Laura Steiman from the Elizabeth Fry Society. She is not here, but she did, in advance, submit a written presentati on.

The Clerk will be distri buting copies of her prese ntation to members of the committee. Kath leen Bea tson from the Federal P.C. Women's Caucus of Winnipeg and Districts. Do you have a writte n presentation this evening? Ms. Kathleen Beatson (Federal P.C. Women's Caucus of Winnipeg and Districts): They are passing it around, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson : Thank you very much. Ms. Beatson: I need the original, I am sorry. Madam Chairperson: Our apologies. Please proceed, Ms. Beatson. Ms.

Beatson : Madam Chairperson and members of the Manitoba Legislature, I support Bill 5, changing the name of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women to Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. The name change in Bill 5 is a much more specific and succinc t appe llation, getti ng rid of two prepositions: "of' and "on," also the definite

article "the" with more emphasis on "wo men." In the Concise Oxford Dictionary the word "status" merely suggests social position, rank, relation to others and rela tive importanc e. I believe the Advisory Council has gone far beyond status of women and does not reflect the present concerns of women. The new name depicts the broader mandate of the Advisory Council. As we move into the 19 90s, the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council gives more weight to issues concerning women, children, indeed all of the people of Manitoba. Respectfully submitted. Madam Chairperson: Thank you.

Would you be prepared to answer questions from committee members? Ms. Beatson: Yes. Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Ms. Beatson. Your last paragraph of your presentation says that the new name depicts the broader mandate of the Advisory Council and gives more weigh t to issues concerning women, children, indeed all the people of Manitoba, yet the mandate of the Advisory Council according to what Bill 5 says and what the minister has said has not changed and still does indeed deal with the status of women in Manitoba. I am wondering how you put those two positions toget her. Ms.

Beatson: I think when you consider women's issues and the way things have been changing recently, we have been dealing with violenc e against women which-1 am particularly interested in that issue. I think that it just does not concern women, per se, but as you say in the

preamble--1 have not read the

preamble to the bill, I am sorry. Ms. Barrett: Madam Chairperson, I have one other comment I would like to make on your presentation, and then a question. In the third paragraph you talk about the word "status" as it is defined in the dictionary. You say that it talks about rank, relation to others and relative importance.

I think that you are agreeing with an earlier presenter who stated that it would be wonderful if we did not have to talk about distinctions such as status indicates, but in fact we do know that in virtually every area of our society, with the possible exception of poverty, women are far behind men or have not yet reached full equality with men, and so the concept of status, which talks about a differentiation, is to my way of thinking still very appropriate . I am wondering if you would comment on my reaction to your earlier state ment.

12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Ma rch 5, 1992 Ms. Beatson: Well, I think we have made some achievements, and I think we should acknowledge them. Certainly, we have not received perfection yet or complete equality, but I think that we should acknowledge some of the achievements that we have received. Ms. Barrett: I am sorry, I just have one more question. In the next paragraph you talk about that the word "status" does not reflect the present concerns of women. I am wondering if you could share with us some of those present concerns of women that status does not come into play with. Ms.

Beatson: I think we are always changing and progressing, and some of the social needs in the community at the present time are being met by women that maybe were not as prevalent 10 years ago; maybe they were there but they were not as prevalent. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mrs. Beatson, I do not want to put words in your mouth, but what does the word "status" say to you? Ms.

Beatson: The reason I sort of did this dictionary idea of statu s was that I thought, well, I will just look it up and see what it means and not use the connotation of the status of women, because when we refer to the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women, the short name for it is the Advisory Council; people refer to it as the Advisory Council. •

(2000) I think you, Mrs. Carstairs, believe that status means equality, as we were talking about before the meeting. It does mean that. As I say, to reiterate , I think we have achieved some equality and I think we should acknowledge that. I like the idea, and I think that if we shorten the new name it will be Women's Advisory Council, it will not be just the Advisory Council; that is what I think. The full name will be the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council, but in future we will not refer to it as the Advisory Council.

We will say "the Women's," and the emphasis will be on "Women's." Madam Ch airperson : Th ank you for your presentati on, Ms. Beatson. Ms. Beatson: Thank you. Madam Chairperson: Margaret Murray. You may proceed, Margaret. Ms. Margaret Murray (Private Citizen): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, committee members. Thank you for allowing me to make a brief presentation to your committee regarding the name change outlined in Bill S, that is changing the name of the organization Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women to the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council.

First , let me say that in preparation for this event I reviewed the Hansards to see what discussion had taken place and why we would find ourselves at this place. Having done that, by way of an introduction, I must first identify myself as follows. My name is Margaret Murray, such name to be prefaced by a choice of Miss, Mrs. or Ms. That posed a slight dilemma for me as I found in Hansard that this was of some sig nificance sinc e it took up some considerable space in typed print.

I was Miss, became Mrs. and, when divorced, resorted to a dual-per sonality role of either Ms. or Mrs. depending on the role I was filling. As the mother of my children, to the school I was Mrs. When dating again, of course it seemed only appropria te to use Ms. so there would be no confusion as to my current status. However, it does leave me a little struggling at times when I am not quite sure which I should choose, as sometimes I am not quite sure how the title might impact on the person to whom I am addressing myself. Sometimes I feel there may be a value judgment being made.

Frankly, although I must tell you that I appreciate the right to choose, I guess I could find myself without that choice depending on what political party I had joined. That caught me by surprise. I am not sure, can someone tell if that is a women's issue? This may seem rather trite as I stand here before you, but I think it only serves to underscore the impor tance a name, a handle, makes when someone wishes to be judged in a certain manner. I will proceed now to address my concern. I am the daughter of a person who could be described as a political activist.

By my definition that is someone whom Peter Warren calls by their first name. As such, I came to believe that being known by the same name as my mother often caused people to judge me as if my opinions were hers. My fondest wish was to marry early so I could change my name. You can see where that got me, but that aside, you have to appreciate the earnestness that I felt to be

March 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 known as me, separate and apart, and not to be confused with anyone else. I can only say that my personal experience has led me to be in complete support of anyone or any organization who finds there is confusion with who they really are or what they really stand for. I would strongly request that you heed that request made by the organization and take it most seriously. I have to question why anyone would presume to impose a different name from the one requested by the very people most affected, the ones who are saying they have an identity problem.

The confusion of the two names presented, i. e., the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women, and the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women can be a time waster. As anyone who has ever been a receptionist will tell you, many is the time people will call one, thinking they have the other. Confusion of roles le ads to misrepresentation of purpose for being as well as misrepresentation of where they are headed.

Anyone who has been quoted in the media will agree with me, I think, that it is only fair to be as clear and as helpful as one can be to the media, because it is there that confusion is taken to an art form. If for no other reason than to make it easier for the media to determine who the key players are, it serves the women of Manitoba better to have names which are distinctive for any organizations which purport to be representing women or an avenue for their concerns. I, for one, read the papers regularly and I try to keep abreast of issues which may impact on me and my family.

I would be most grateful if the likes of Mr. Ward, Ms. Frances and others could be assisted in this matter by having the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women clearly identifiable by a short, inclusive, easy-to-spell name, one that says what it does, what it is doing, can stand up and take credit when it does something that we should know about. If the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women wants to stand up and be counted, they too would want to be recognizable, separate and apart from their acronym twin.

Surely, if the organization itself is having an identity crisis of some proportions that they have requested ministerial assistance to revise

an act of the legislature of Manitoba, what are we here for? What possible reason can you have for not proceeding as expeditiously as possible to assist them? I hope it is not so simple that people simply wish to argue for the sake of arguing. I have too much respect for time, on everyone's part, and with that thought I will end my presentation with the request that this name change be supported without further ado. Thank you. Mr. Chomlak: I take it you will answer some questions? Madam Chairperson: Would you be prepared to entertain questions, Margaret, from members of the committee? Ms. Murray: I will try. Mr.

Chomlak: Thank you and thank you for the presentation. I take it from your presentation that-it is clear to me that you say let us change the name as requested, what seems to me to be only one issue. I think there are two issues here, and I just want to get your comments on it by way of this introduction . There are two issues here, and I see a contradiction in your submission, so I would like you to clarify.

In your submission, you say on page 1 and I quote: "it only serves to underscore the importance of a name, a handle, makes when someone wishes to be judged in a certain manner." I think that goes to the issue of what the name, whether the name ,he Status of Women" is in or not in the name. Would you not agree that therefore means there are two issues to be dealt with? First, the issue that you obviously conclude with and agree with that because of the prob lem, the acronym, there should be a name change. What about the second issue of what should that name be?

You clearly indicate it is important, but I do not quite see you deal with it in your submission. Ms. Murray: I am not sure I unde rstand your question, but is your question to me whether I see the "Status of Women" needing to be in the name? Is that the question? Mr. Chomlak: No, but I will ask that. Ms. Murray: What was your question then? I am sorry. Mr. Chomlak: My question is: Would you agree that it is important what words we choose in the name that we ultimately choose? Ms. Murray: Sure. Words are important. Mr. Chomlak: Having said that, then you agree there are basically two issues here. Is that correct?

14 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 Ms. Murray: No. There is one issue in my mind and that is that a group of women who are highly respected, are well known, have come forward and asked for expediency in the only way they can, to have their name changed for an identity situation, so that they can clearly be the person or the group identified as this group who can do what it is they are setting out to do. Now they cannot do that under the name they have been given.

The conflict is not between "Advisory Council" and "Action Committee." The conflict is that they both carry the name "Status of Women." Mr. Chomlak: I thought the conflict was between the use of the acronym, that is the shortened word. Ms. Murray: I guess I am basing some of my presentation on reading the two daily newspapers, and they do not necessarily use the acronym. Mr. Chomlak: Let me try something else then. You clearly in your presentation indicate that the name chosen is very important.

Would you agree that if women, even one woman, felt that the name should be changed to something else, that was a valid point, it would be worth considering? • (2010 ) Ms. Murray: Let me put it to you this way. People only get concerned and think it is important when it affects them absolutely directly. That is when they look you up in the phone book or they pick out an

article in Hansard or in the newspaper, because they are concerned for themselves. That is when they care. I think the people who care most about this name change are the people who are currently on the Manitoba Advisory Council and the people who are already on the Manitoba Action Committee. The rest of the women of Manitoba, you are going to have a hard time finding a name that they are going to agree on. Mr. Chomlak: A final question, we have heard severa,l presenters who have indicated that they will accept a name that says the "Status of Women" in it.

How do you feel about using the term "Status of Women?" Ms. Murray: I have looked at the purpose of this council, the mandate, and I do not see those words in it. I have some difficulty, first of all, personally, with the "Status of Women." I think my mother 40 years ago may have presented something to the status of women of her day, probably my grandmother as well. I do not know what "status of women" is supposed to imply. I am a 1990s woman. I am a baby boomer woman.

I do not know if I represent any particular group, but "status of women" does not say anything to me, and it certainly is not in the mandate of the organization. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mrs. or Ms. Murray, whichever you would like, I will not make that judgment- Ms. Murray: Please call me Margaret. Mrs. Carstalrs: I have to suggest to you that my daugh ters would also prefer that they have a different last name than mine. One thing in your presentation did concern me, and that was that you said the request made by the organization should be taken seriously.

I am concerned because I got an implication I would like you to clarify for me, and that was that it was the people on the organization who were important here and not the women they represented. I would think that what you really are saying is it is the women whom they are representing who are important here and not necessarily the people who sit on the council. Ms. Murray: Which women are those whom they are representing other than the-is it 18 on their council? Whatever that number is. They have the horrendous mandate of attempting to reflect the views of the women of Manitoba.

At any given time if you have three women in the room, are you going to get three people who are going to agree, or three men for that matter? The only women who are really affected by this name change, so that their identity is clear, are the people who answer the phone at their office, the people in the media who are attempting to report what they do, the people who are actually issuing news releases with their name attached to it. 1 am not saying that the women of Manitoba are not important.

I am just having a difficult time, if you expect this 18 -person council to somehow be reflecting at any one time the whole group of women of Manitoba. I think perhaps I have digressed, I am not sure. Mrs. Carstalrs: Surely that is the mandate of this parti cular organiza tion, to reflect as best as possible. We know it cann ot be a perfect representation but it is to reflect as best as possible the majority view of women in the province of Manitoba. Ms. Murray: I believe the mandate is very short. Does anyone have a copy of it here, a copy of the

March 5, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 mandate of the council? Perhaps if we know what we are speaking about- Ms. Barrett: Madam Chairperson, the mandate from the 19 87 annual report, and it is the mandate that is reflected in each of the following annual reports as well, is, and I quote: To advise the government of Manitoba on matters relating to the status of women. Ms. Murray: Is there more? Madam Chairperson: Can I just get clarification from the committee members. Mrs. Carstairs, are you finished your questioning? Mrs. Carstalrs: I have finished. Thank you. Ms.

Barrett: Madam Chairperson, I have one of the annual- Mrs. Mitchelson : Madam Chair per son , the presenter has just had a copy of the legislation given to her, and I guess in the act it states that the purpose of the council is to advance the goal of equal participation of women in society and to promote changes in social, legal and economic structures to that end. It has been passed to me to read out, and so I suppose if you call a purpose a mandate If I could ask for clarifcation on that, is that what you are- Ms. Murray: That is what I was referring to as a mandate. If I am in error, I will stand corrected.

Ms. Barrett: I kind of agree. I do not basically agree with your final conclusion because I am very much in favour of a change of name for the Advisory Council that includes the phrase "Status of Women." I do agree with you when you say several times-and I think it is sort of what my colleague was trying to get at too-w here you say, talking about a name change, one that says what it does, what it is doing and tells us what it is about.

I am wondering if you would-i n light of the fact that the mandate of the status of women act as it is shown in Bill5, which does specifically state that it is to promote the status of women. Given that-a nd I realize not having seen the act and everything it is confusing to know all of this or to have it all there-the minister has spoken in the House and has said that the mandate will not change, which is to promote the status of women among other duties and purposes of the act.

When you say that the title should say what it does and what it is doing, it follows logically, therefore, that retaining the words "Status of Women" would make sense. Ms. Murray: I guess it might make sense to you. It does not to me, only because I do not want to retain the status of women for any more than about two months at a time. It has got to be moving forward, progressing, and what I read as the purpose, 1 think, is wonderful. What I am hearing you read as what you say is in the act, promoting the status of women--1 mean, at what level? It does not say elevating it.

I find it cumbersome, frankly, and I would like to see us get on with the job. "Advisory" me ans some th ing as op posed to "ac tion committee." I would like to see the two separate. I can identify with an action committee. I may well join it after tonight. I also can certainly identify with what an advisory council is setting out to do, and a short crisp name that says, these ladies mean business, I can certainly support. *

(2020) Ms. Barrett: We will, I think, Ms. Murray, agree to disagree on the title, but I agree with everything you have said in your last comments, that we need to have something that says what it does, short and to the point, and that it must include as well • Advisory." Th�re is a definite difference between advising and actron, and there is a legitimate difference there. Thank you for your presentation. Madam Chairperson: Brenda Leipsic. You may proceed, please, Ms. Leipsic. Ms. Brenda Leipsic (Private Citizen): Good evening, Madam Chairperson and members of this legislative committee.

May I begin by saying that 1 app recia te the oppor tuni ty to address this committee and to express my views as a Manitoban and a woman with regard to Bill 5. The bill proposes to change the title of the Manitoba Advisory Committee on the Status of Women to the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. This action is proposed to end confusion between two different groups, namely, the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women.

When one objectively studies these proper names or the identical acronyms, the similarities and resultant problems and confusion are self-evident proof of the desirability and, indeed, necessity for change. The na� . e change seemed most logical and an easy, effrcrent solution. Please note, this name change does not alter the mandate of the Advisory Council and indeed does

16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 not in any way affect the mandate or work of the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women. A mandate to seek equality for women and men and also representation of women remains. There are no changes in this mandate which is the very soul, the raison d'etre, of these groups. I believe both groups are needed, vital and must truly represent all women of Manitoba. That is, rural, urban, native and northern.

The names are simply that, names, and their measure of worth and success is to debate real issues of importance, to be proactive and further enhance the quality and spirit of life for all Manitobans, male, female, our daughters and our sons. It seems most ironic that any opposition may be felt when many women's groups, including the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women, have indica ted their approval for this change because of past confusion. I belong to many organizations, some for women, particularly, and Including the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women.

I believe many women such as myself care not only for women's issues but all issues affecting humankind. Indeed, they are all interrelated, like the structure of an atom, each dependent on the other, each assisting the other and then the whole. One

part cannot operate in isolation or the entire structure breaks down. No longer can women's issues be identified as only daycare or health. We are also vitally interested in economic development of our province, our resources, environment, societal violence, drug abuse, education and more. It is also a fact that many men may identify as a single-parent family today and also care intensely about child care, health, violence to women, et cetera. It was indeed a disappointment to read the comments of the official opposition spokesperson on women's matters when she denounced outright this simple name change.

Appar en tly, she presumes, and assumes, she speaks for all women. This is an erroneous assumption. I disagree as a woman, a person, a Manitoban, and a member of the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women. The most disturbing fact, though, was that the entire speech was politically partisan. Surely we must be above this partisanship bickering. The most important issue is advancing the case of all women, indeed, all Manitobans. Allow us the choice for our future direction and act to encourage co-o peration. Do not sow discontent throughout the ranks of women. To divide is to weaken our case obviously.

This must not happen. A name is only a name. Many names change. We may give our children a name at birth; many choose to adopt variations, as do companies, clubs, religions. Even political parties may change names-excuse the typo in here-Co-operative Comm onwealth Fede rati on, CCF, to New Democratic Party, NDP. The times and direction and semantics are ever changing in our society. The mandate, the action and results, is what is most important. 1 mention that politics stays out of this matter because I know politics did not matter in 19 83 with the then NDP Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

The late Honourable Mary Beth Dolin was a woman, an NDP government minister who invited me to work with her for the good of all women. We spent many hour s together in her offi ce, co-operati ng and working together, to further the conditions of all women. Party membership cards meant nothing to Mary Beth Dolin. The work and cause were paramount and above all else. Many women have traditionally networked to advance their lives, careers and the world in general. We must work together for the good of all.

Pers onally, I have worked to fur ther the advancement of women in the workplace and my home, the ideas in my home and in my political party of choice. Many Tories, Grits and NDP women have all done that. It is important for me to leave this world a better place for my daughter, but also for my son. I have achieved many firsts as a woman in my advertising and marketing career, in my own religion and have made inroads by being at the highest executive level of a political party and the first woman president of a hundred-year-old political club here in Manitoba.

I am proud of these achievements, and I have worked hard to obtain these goals. Perhaps it will help make the road easier for generations of women to follow. May I address the alternative name suggested by the official opposition spokesperson, the name Status of Women Advisory Council of Manitoba or the acronym SWACM put forth as an alternative. With respect, I ask you to eliminate further thought about that name. SWACM has a most violent con notati on. It is a repulsive, fright ening and chilling word.

March 5, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 May I conclude by saying, I ask this committee to agree to a name change for the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women to the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council for the aforementioned reasons. Please, for all wom en, debate the important, real and meaningful issues for all women and all people of Manitoba. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: Thank you, Brenda. Would you be prepared to respond to some questions of committee members? Ms. Leipsic: Yes, I would. Ms. Barrett: I have two points of clarification would like to put on the record.

They first come forward in Ms. Leipsic's presentation, and then a couple of questions, if I may. First is on page 2. The CCF, the official name of the CCF, the acronym CCF, and believe me you are not the first person to have made the assumption that it was confede rat ion, is Co- oper ative Commonwealth Federation. Ms. Leipsic: Yes, I think I said commonwealth. I adjusted it and I put the word in in most of the copies. This is a typo. Ms. Barrett: I am sorry, I thought I heard you say confederation as well. Ms. Leipsic: I have the pencil in here, Ms. Barrett. *

(2030) Ms. Barrett: Also then, secondly, in regard to this discussion tonight, I believe more importantly, on the last page you are the first person to officially bring forward this concern about the acronym that follows Status of Women Advisory Council of Manitoba. I know there are a number of letters that have been received which also share concern about this acronym.

I would like to put it on the record very clearly that the origination of this whole part of the discussion was during debate on second reading in the House, and it was one of a number of names of advisory councils throughout the country that had been placed on the record. As a matter of fact, there were two members who discussed this possible title as a possibility, as an example of a number of them. A third member who had spoken spoke about an entirely different potential title.

The title that was brought forward, Status of Women Advisory Council of Manitoba, was the same title as the Northwest Territories' Advisory Council titl e. The name was changed from Northwest Territories to Manitoba. It was not ever intended to be the only or even the No. 1 choice of any particular person or caucus or party. I would like to put that on the record as a clarification, because I know it was brought forward in the media and it was- this name was mentioned, but a number of other names were also mentioned. Madam Chairperson: Just on procedurally, may I ask co-operation of all members, please.

This time is for questions. We can have debate when we get into the bill clause by clause at a later conjecture, hopefully this evening. Ms. Barrett, do you have questions of Ms. Leipsic? Ms. Barrett: Yes, I do, Madam Chairperson, and I take the gentle admonition of the Chair. On the bottom of your first page you say that it is ironic that any opposition may be felt when many women's groups, including the Action Committee, have indi cated their approval for this change because of past confusions. I believe the Action Committee stated their approval of a change of names because of the confusion of the acronym.

They also, in their earlier presentation this evening, stated very clearly that they were on record as wanting the words "Status of Women" to remain in the title of the Advisory Council. After having heard the representative of the Action Committee earlier this evening, do you maintain your support for the proposed name change? Ms. Leipsic: Madam Chairperson, Ms. Barrett, yes, I did hear the representative. I believe she said quite clearly in the first part of her address that she did seek a name change because of the confusion that everybody experiences.

I did not at all get the impression that she was adamant about keeping the "Status of Women." I can tell you, I do not approve of the phrase in there; I do not feel it is relevant today. I think that is what I was saying in my notes about semantics and time and moving along. Mr. Chomlak: Madam Chairperson, thank you for the presentation. I just have one question, with a slight

preamble. It will be far shorter than I am used to in the House, I assure you. I agree with you that the acronym SWACM is very inappropriate. I want you to comment on the fact that you find that particular name inappropriate, but

18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 on page 2 of your presentation, you make the submission that a name is only a name. Does not that make the case that there are indications that- Ms. Leipsic: That SWACM is right? Mr. Chomlak: No, not that SWACM is right, but of the im portance that is attached to the words which are used to describe something. Ms. Leipsic: Madam Chairperson, Mr. Chomiak, if I may say the words SWACM, you know without the rhetoric, the connotation is violence, and I think we are all trying to do something about it. A name is not always a name.

You do not name something with a horrific, gory or profane name. I mean, one uses taste, we use choice and we try to move along; we use logic. Mrs. Carstalrs: I just have the one question, and that is I would like to ask Ms. Leipsic-and perhaps she did when I had to take a break-why she opposes the use of "Status of Women"? Ms. Leipsic: Madam Chairperson, Mrs.

Carstairs, I do not like the use of the word "status." The connotation to me of status is, without I am sure being as eloquent as you people are trained and have the experience, to me it sounds like fox hunts and breakfast and someone walking in and saying, and what is your status in this organization, in this building. The purpose of all our work is to try and obtain more equality, and I think we are getting there. Times have changed. I mean no one would have had this conversation 20 years ago. We are moving along, and we are going into other areas. We are obtaining more equality.

I think I said in my address, I feel I have personally, and I am proud of it- I want more. I want more for my daughter. I am sure you do too. That is part of the answer. The other

part is, there is more to it. We began with just that. I still keep that in mind, of course, but there are other issues now. Now that we are in positions, we can affect economics, we can affect environment, we can affect social services, domestic violence, societal violence, drug abuse, all these other things. We can be consulted about them. Mrs. Carstalrs: Do you not believe that our influence on every one of those issues is relative to our status in the society? If we have an inferior status, then our mark on those areas is going to be more limited. Ms. Leipsic: Madam Chairperson, Mrs.

Carstairs, I do not walk into situations, some that I have mentioned here, whether it is in my field of work, or when I am trying to do something in my religion, and walk around a room and debate status. I walk in, I show I have it, and I move along. I dislike the use of the word constantly. I do not walk in a room and try to prove it every second. Mrs.

Carstalrs: Do you not believe that there are many in our society who do not have your privilege of having their status guaranteed, perhaps because of their accomplishments, or because of their education, or because of their inherent abilities, and is that not part of the work of this organization? Ms. Leipsic: Madam Chairperson, Mrs. Carstairs, of course, I believe that many people do not have the same privileges that I am now enjoying today. I did not have them 20 years ago.

I did not have them 1 0 years ago, but I have been working in women's organizations and I will continue to, to try and bring this about for women, but also for men. As I said in my speech, there is a broader picture. Now that we are getting somewhere and obtaining position and getting the jobs, all the other things that happen, we are in a position to affect all of the people in Manitoba. So we have a broader demand, I think, on this. Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels {St. Johns): Madam Chairperson, just a couple of questions coming out of this discussion we have been having.

I would like also to thank the presenter for appearing before this committee. My first question arises out of a growing concern this evening about what I consider to be a fundamen tal dis crepancy betwe en the governmen t's approach and our approach, and I want to ask a question about that.

It seems to me that if one is talking about getting more women into government to advise the government of the day on the economy, on the environment, on energy, on agriculture, it is the responsibility of government to appoint women, to hire women, to include women in all of their discussions on those issues so that they have a wide-ranging perspective and equal input from both sexes. That is quite a different matter than a separate committee to deal with equality issues, to address the fact that we are a long way from achieving equality between women and men.

So I do not disagree with your em phasis on the need to include

March 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 women in all parts of government and have that advice ever present, but to me that does not negate at this point in our time, the need for a separate council that deals with status of women issues. So I want to ask the representative- Madam Chairperson: Order, please. •

(2040) Point of Order Mr. McAlpine: Madam Chairperson, I do not think this is the time to be debating with the presenter. I think it is a time for an opportunity to ask questions, and I do not think we want to get involved in any debates with the presenters. Madam Chairperson : I thank the honourable member for drawing that to the attention of the Chair. Indeed, it is an opportunity for committee members to ask questions of the presenters, and there will be an opportunity when we do review the bill clause by clause for debate. *** Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: As I was just about to do, I would like to ask the presenter if she does not feel that it is possible to achieve both the objective of having women involved in government and having a say on every issue before government, every policy area, as well as a body that is there to address inequalities in our society and to correct imbalances and to pursue status of women issues. Ms. Leipsic: I do not think I ever said there should not be an advisory group. Am I not understanding your question? Floor Comment: We have that trouble too. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: If heckling is permitted, guess

preambles are permitted. Madam Chairperson: Order, please. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: There is considerable emphasis in the paper for suggesting that the role of women and status of wome n-- all of that is changed- that, in fact, it is much beyond issues of daycare and pay equity and violence and poverty an d so on, and you refe re nced resou rce development and the environment and so on.

So I am just wondering, is it not the responsibility to ensure, yes, that we have women in every aspect of government, every policy area advising on those issues so that they have women's perspectives on those issues as well as a council that is devoted specifically to correcting inequalities in our society today? Ms. Leipsic: The way I am interpreting what you are saying, I do not think you understood what I was saying. I said our mandate has gone long beyond child care and, I think this government and many governments are and have been moving along. We have an exc ellen t record here.

We have commission reports on violence against women. We have many areas where we can be consulted. I did not say at any point that we should not have a women's advisory group at all, if that is what you are interpreting it as. I believe that is your question, I am not sure. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I think the confusion rests with our diffe ren t approaches to the whole responsibility of government to address the need to address inequalities and pursue status of women issues. I do not want to pursue that at this point, and I ap preci ate your position and resp ect our differences.

I would like to ask one more question. It is a bit tongue in cheek, which I hope will be permissible since there has been somewha t of a focus on the suggestion of one name that was suggested by our caucus, the Status of Women Advisory Council of Manitoba. There seems to have been quite a distortion of that suggestion as being the only one when, in fact, we were suggesting clearly over and over again that any title that included •sta tus of Women" was an important item. If it even means going back to the old women's issues title, fine.

At any ra te, given that focu s and the preoccupation with the resonance and the sound of the acronym for this Status of Women Advisory Council of Manitoba as opposed to the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council, I would like to know if SWACM has any more of a violent ring than MWAC. Ms. Lei psic: Madam Cha ir person , Ms. Wasylycia-Le is' SWACM is SWACM is SWACM. I am in marketing, and if you paid me, I would advise you very quickly not to use that, but let us keep things straight, please. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Yes, I ta ke this qu ite seriously because it clearly has been a diversionary tactic from the essence of this debate, not on the part of the presenter, I am suggesting, on the part of members of this government. I would like to know, if the presenter says she is a public relations person or an advertising consultant, if she would not

20 LE GISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 advise the same, express the same concerns and give the same advice for a group whose acronym is MWAC. Ms. Leipsic: Ma dam Chairp erson , Ms . Wasylycia-Leis, SWACM is SWACM is SWACM, and I have been referring to the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council, and I do not read it as you are pronouncing it at all, so I am sorry, we will disagree on that. Madam Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Leipsic. Ms. Leipsic: Thank you. Madam Chairperson : Marilyn Gault, Chairperson for the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women. You may proceed Marilyn. Ms.

Marilyn Ga ult (Chai rperson, Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women): Madam Chairperson, honourable members, it is a pleasure to be here this evening and to make this presentation to the committee. The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women has, since its inception, had ongoing difficulties with confusion between ourselves and the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women. The confusion exists in the minds of the media as well as in the general public. As a result, we have gotten their mail and vice versa.

The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women is quoted in the media as having said something that was actually stated by the Action Committee, or state ments by the Council's chair are att ributed to the Action Committee. Even some MLAs are not too sure of the difference between the two organizations. After some deliberations and consultation with council members, council asked the minister in March of 19 91 to change their name by

an act of the Legislature. The council's office communicated with organizations and individuals in the women's community at random and were given several letters of support for the change. Reasons for the choice of the name Manitoba Women's Advisory Council were: 1) There is a broad-based feeling amongst women and women's groups that the time has come to recognize that all women's issues are issues for all and that all issues are issues for women. By the omission of status of women or women's issues, an exp anded role is symbo lized.

The proposed change of name would bring Manitoba's council in line with this trend of thinking. 2) The proposed name change clearly states that it is a council of women. We have again this week consu lted with individuals and with wom en's groups and find that there is still widespread support for the name Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: You would be prepared to respond to some questions, Marilyn? Ms. Gault: I would. Madam Chalrpersonr: Thank you. *

(2050) Ms. Barrett: I am going to, Ms. Gault, only ask questions on your first reasons for choice for the name change because, again, as stated before, we have no qualms with the need, argument with the first part of it, which is the need to change the name. The discussion is around what name that will be. You speak about that by the omission of "Status of Women" or "Women's Issues" an expanded role is symbolized, which would bring Manitoba's council in line with the trend for thinking, by which I assume you mean, women's issues are issues for all and all issues are issues for women.

Do you see any difficulty in putting that together with the mandate, which is to advise the government of Manitoba on matters relating to the status of women? The mandate specifically talks about the status of women and issues relating there. Do you have any concern about that? Ms. Gault: The mandate in the act does not use the term "status of wom en." Many of the women that we have consulted with do have difficulty with the phrase "Status of Women" being in the name of the title.

In fact, if you refer to the submissions that came in, there is a submission from the Women's Institute representing 1 ,300 women in Manitoba. They agree that "Status of Women" should not be in there. Many of the individual women that we talked to would prefer that "Status of Women" not be there. The mandate of the cou neil by the act states that we should bring to the government of Manitoba issues of current concern to women of Manitoba, and so when we hear from organizations with memberships of 1, 300, we need to pay atte ntion to that as well. Ms.

Barrett: Madam Chairperson, I would like to read a brief paragraph from the annual report of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women '90- 91 , and I quote: Looking back, yes, there have

March 5, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21 been many steps forward and there are many more to go. Women have made progress towards equality over the last year. When there are no longer •women's issues," but only issues that concern all of us, then we will have achieved equality. Again I ask you, Ms. Gault, is that not a statement in your last annual report that specifically says that we still have women's issues that we must address and goes along with the mandate that you also stated in your last annual report? Ms.

Gault: I cer tai nly recognize the words, because they are my own, and I agree there are certainly equality issues, but because the words "Status of Women" are not in the title of the council does not mean that council would not be working towards the equality of women. Certainly, that is our every wish, and any move that we make focuses on the advancement of women. What we are suggesting is that many of the issues that concern women are not only focused on women, and so we want to acknowledge that expansion. Ms. Barrett: Yes, I would agree.

I would not disagree at all that virtually every issue that faces women, faces in one way or another all citizens, all human beings. My understanding, that in the past the Advisory Council's mandate has said, while that is the case, there is, until we achieve equality, still a need to have an ave nue for the partic ular perspective that all of these problems have on the status of women, and that what you are saying now is that you want to broaden that out to include, that all these issues would deal not only with women's perspectives, but men's perspectives, children's perspectives.

Am I paraphrasing the change that you foresee the Advisory Council to be undertaking? Ms. Gault: No, you are not paraphrasing it in the way I am trying to say it. Let us put it that way. We are not repr esenting men 's issues. We are representing issues of concern to women. As we look into the areas that come up in today's world, they are not specifically women's issues, but they are women's issues as well as they are issues for all of society. We think it needs to be reflected in the name. Manitoba Women's Advisory Council is a short name. It can be remembered. It is unlikely to be confused with other names.

We are not attempting in any way, shape or form to turn our back on the work of equality with women, because our work will not be done until we do not need an advisory council in Manitoba or in any other province . Mrs. Carstalrs: Ms. Gault, in your presentat ion, you said, after some deliberations and consultations with the council members. Was there ever a formal vote taken of the representatives with respect to the name change? Ms. Gault: There was a lot of discussion. The discussion goes back to September 1 990, two years ago. We discussed the confusion once we had received a letter from the Action Committee.

They did not ask us to change our name. They asked us to not use the acronym because of the confusion. We discussed it at council, and the decision was made to think of other names that we could be known by. In March of '91 , the council-and copies of the letter went to all council member&-wrote to the minister and asked her to consider changing the name so that we would eliminate the confusion. Mrs.

Carstalrs: What I really want to know is, was it a unanimous agreement of all council members that this name be changed, or was there some disagreement within the council itself about the deletion of the phrase "Status of Women?" Ms. Gault: To the best of my recollection, it was unanimous that the name be changed. Mrs. Carstalrs: I do not question that there was unanimous consent that the name be changed. I think that is accepted by everybody in this debate, that the name needs to be changed. The question is what should it be changed to? I still have that same question.

Was there no concern by any of the members on the council about the removal of the phrase "Status of Women?" Ms. Gault: No, there was not. The first name that the council chose was the Women's Advisory Council of Manitoba, and that acronym was not acceptable because that was WACM, and so we had to go back to the drawing boards and the name that was then chosen was Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. Mrs.

Carstalrs: Part of the reason I ask this question is that in the written submissions we have received tonight is one from the Fort Garry Resource Centre in which they indicated that they were very much in favour of a name change, and when approached, they had cert ainly given their support to that . They are now , in hindsight, or whatev er, concerned about the removal of the phrase "Status

22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 of Women." I have also had phone calls from people who had also indicated to me that they had at first indicated their support for a name change, but they are now in hindsight concerned about the removal of the phrase "Status of Women." Has the council met in the last couple of weeks to debate the whole phrase "Status of Women" and its deletion from this title? Ms. Gault: Council met last weekend. It is a different council than the council back in 19 90 because ther e have been some changes. The matter was discussed.

The matte r was also before the Legislature at the time. We asked council members who would be prepared to come forward and support the name, and it was not unanimous at that time. * (21 00) Mrs. Carstalrs: This is a difficult question, but were there any members of the council who perhaps reflected groups other than the ones represented around this table, for example, visible minority women, that may have had a different concern and expressed that concern at the council, than women who quite frankly are perhaps better represented by Ms. Leipsic, who has obviously made considerable achievements in her life? Ms.

Gault: As I said, it was not unanimous and you have Indicated one of the council members had some concern that "Status of Women" was being removed, and she would have preferred it to stay in. Mr. Chomlak: Thank you for the presentation. I just have a couple of questions. You made tw o references to the Manitoba Women's Institute's 1, 300 members' endorsation of the name change. Do you know how they arrived at that decision? Ms. Gault: The gave us a letter quite some time ago that was passed by their board. It was back on September 23, 19 91 .

When this committee was sitting, we asked the Manitoba Women's Institute if they would make a submission, and they sent another lette r to the Clerk of Committ ees, March 4, 19 92, reconfirming the letter that they had written before and sending a copy of it. I think you have both of them there. Mr. Chomlak: Thank you. But do you know if they consulted their 1 ,300 members? Ms. Gault: I wo uld not know. I would assume when a lette r comes out signed by the president, the president-elect and the executive secretary that it is their responsibility, not mine. Mr. Chomlak: Just one more question.

I have the lette r in front of me that is dated March 4, 19 92, and it says the new name that they, the board approves, quote: would naturally be concerned with status. You have heard other presen tations where organizations and wom en have not concluded that that name would naturally be concerned with status. Does that cause you any concern? Ms. Gault: I think that we have two schools of thought. We have those who support that "Status of Women" should be in the name. We have those who do not. We have a disagreement or different

interpretations from different groups of women. So we remain with the two areas. Some prefer "Status of Women" in the name; others oppose it, quite frankly. Ms. Barrett: I just have one very brief question, Ms. Gault.

Were the council members advised or aware that every oth er provincial organization in every other province, with the excep tion of British Columbia, has such an advisory body, including the federal government, that every other one of those provinci al, territorial and federal committees includes either the phrase "Status of Women" or "Women's Issues" in its title and that Manitoba would be the only provincial, territorial or federal advisory body of this nature that would not include those phrases? Ms. Gault: No, beca use that is not correct.

Saskatchewan does not have "Status of Women" or "Women's Issues" in its title. Ms. Barrett: My information says that it does so 1-even so it would be a vast majority would have those two phrases in their titles. Ms. Gault: That is right. Some of the feeling there is that Manitoba women have been leaders in women's issues all along, in women getting the vote, in family law, in enteri ng the legal profession, in supports for wom en in business, in the fight against violence, and in the Constitution. So council believes that it is appropriate again that Manitoba can be a little different and be out in front. Mr.

Jack Reimer (Niakwa): No, my question was answered when Mr. Chomiak was asking about the 1 ,300 members. Thank you. Hon. Harry Enns (Mi nis ter of Na tural Resources): Madam Chairperson, I apologize for

March 5, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 23 having had to absent myself from the committee hearings, so I did not have the opportunity of hearing all of the briefs presented so far. I did hear in full the first presentation made by a representative of the Choices group. I would simply ask Ms. Gault if she could clear up any possible misunderstanding on my part. My understanding is that the request for a change of name is, as you quite forthrightly put it out, simply to avoid confusion with the names, in the minds of the media and other people, that it is that and nothing more. Ms. Gault: That is correct.

The confusion is very distressing, both to the Action Committee, to the Advisory Council, to the media, to women's groups, to the individuals. That is first and foremost the reason for asking for the change. Once we decide that we want to ask for a change, the next question is, what do we change it to? Mr. Enns: Just to follow along, I can certainly understand that with any group that there are maybe two or three or more schools of thought as to what a suitable name should be. I happen to belong to a political group that is called the Progr essive Conservative Party of Manitoba.

Many people think that name is incompatible within itself, that you cannot be progressive and you cannot be conservative. We have great fights about that, so I understand that. My serious question to you, Ms. Gault, is the first presenter did leave this comm ittee with the impression that the change in name was something more than just that, that in fact a hidden agenda-1 believe she put on the rec ord-a right-w ing, Reagan-Bus h agenda was being pursued on this change of name. Do you see any such hidden agenda in the proposal, which I see as perlectly innocent, Ms. Gault, but understandably bringing about- Ms.

Gault: Did she really say that? Mr. Enns: Pardon? Ms. Gault: Did she really say that ? I did not hear it. Mr. Enns: Yes, she did. I think it is a fair question. Ms. Gault: Yes, exactly. No, I would not. The request emanated from the council and so, straig htforward , I do not think this council can be accused of not representing the women of Manitoba to the very best of its abili ty. The minister responded to that request. There was no talk of change of mandate or a change of responsibility whatsoev er. Mr. Enns: I thank Ms. Gault for that answer.

I do want to assure her that is my understanding of the request before this committee. I do want to compliment your brief. It is a parti cularly good brief. I have listened to many briefs, and it is short and to the point. Thank you, particularly for the poignant point that you bring into the brief on page 2, that women's issues are issues for all, and all issues are issues for all women. I suppose when that is really fully accepted and understood and acted upon, then we would not be having these kinds of gender arguments. Ms. Gault: I agree. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, before the speaker leaves, I did have one question.

I find that I have given Bill 5 a considerable amount of thought. I go back to the committee meeting hearings last year in the summer months there, let me see, the beginning of the summer. The minister had said at the onset of the meeting, when we got to this particular line, that this is something that the organization itself has come up with as a recommendation. The minister was really just wanting to respond to what your organization was suggesting.

Because of some concerns that were raised then, the bill was reintroduced this spring. • (211 0) The question that has come across my mind is quite often individuals might box themselves into corners and maybe, not necessarily, do what is in the best interests of all of those that are concerned. I am wondering if the organization opposes right out the use of the word "status for women" in any potential name, because if we go back to the origins and to the letter that was initially sent to the minister, it was for the acronym, and that is the primary reason for the change.

If a name could come up that would take care of that primary concern, would the organization and, as the president, a majority of the organization oppose using the phrase "Status of Women?" Ms. Gault: To the best of my recollection with both councils, as we discussed it, the majority preferred not to have "Status of Women" in the title. Mr. Lamoureux: It was the "Status of Women" that they opposed more so than the change of the acronym?

24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 Ms. Gault: No. First and foremost, the whole thing started to end the confusion with the two identical acronyms-first and foremost. Secondly, when you are going to change a name, you have to get another name. In discussion on other appropriate names, the majority of council preferred not to have "Status of Women" in it. One reason was for the length of the title. Other reasons were that they considered it to be limiting. We then went to individual women and groups because we are their council.

We got feedback from them and went forward to the minister with a request for a change and a suggestion as to which name. As I said previously, the first name that we chose, the acronym was not acceptable either. So we went back to the drawing boards for the second one. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: In her speech at second reading, the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchelson) in introducing Bill 5 indicated that-and I am paraphrasing because I do not have Hansard in front of me-this bill does not necessarily represent a change in mandate.

I am wonderi ng, if there are concerns on the part of the present members of the Advisory Council about the present mandate, and if you find the act, as introduced in 19 87, is limiting in any way. Have you had discussions? Are you concerned at all with the present mandate ? Ms. Gault: No, we are not concerned with the mandate. Each council member has got a copy of the act in their handbook. Many have perused the handbook very carefully. The purpose, as set out in the act-and I cannot read it to you because somebody has my copy-does not have the "Status of Women" phrase in it. It talks about equality.

Equality is the issue as it applies to all other issues. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Have you been asked at all by the present government or the minister to consider a change in mandate? Ms. Gault: No, we have not. Quite frankly, the council, since I have been chair, has not been asked by the government to pursue any particular subject, issue, change in mandate. We have generated our own issues by consensus at the meetings of the council. We identify issues, we prioritize issues, we decide how we will address those issues, and then get on with the work that we have set out for ourselves. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: One of the key points you make in your brief is that, and I quote on the last page: the proposed name clearly states that it is a council of women. You have helped our understanding a bit in terms of the choice of name that you and your council have presented to this government. I am just wondering if you could elaborate a bit on that, because it seems to me that is a shift in terms of the present act in terms of its intentions, not necessarily in terms of its practi ce.

I believe, in terms of all appointed councils over the last number of years, all members have been women but that has never been spelled out in legislation and, I think, for good reason. I am wondering if, given that clear state ment in your brief, if you are proposing that this government make further amendment to the act on the Advisory Council on the Status of Women to have only women appointed to the council. Ms. Gault: No. We had not even thought of going forward and asking for any change in a mandate for that purpose there.

I have no knowledge of any men ever having been considered for appointment in Manitoba, however there is a man on one of the other councils. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I appreci ate that. A final question, I think what you have said and what your brief says clearly indicates that there is a, first of all, polarization, if you will, in terms of our approaches on these issues, clearly, a major difference among many on this issue.

That is your suggestion to move towards a council that reflects in its name that it be a council of women advising government on any number of issues as opposed to a council of people, men or women, advising government on the status of women or equality issues. Ms. Gault: The purpose is still contained within the act as passed in 1987. The purpose is the mandate of the council and the council must act within that mandate unless you, in the Legislature, change the mandate of that act. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Just a final comment and question then, that does the beg the question why in your brief you felt it important to describe this change and account for this change in terms of it now clearly stati ng that it is a council of women. Ms. Gault: It just makes it clearer. It is the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. I have no subversive motives. No one has come to me and

March 5, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 25 threate ned to put men on my council. It is just to me and to the councils as we discussed the issue, thought that it was very clear that it was a council of women. Mr. Reimer: Thank you very much, Ms. Gault. Just as a matter of clarification, you are chairperson of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women. You have come forth to the minister asking for a name change.

You have mentioned here that the name change was asked for by your organiz ation because of misin terpr etati on, misdirection of mail, misinformation through phone calls and through advisory and through situations that have arisen. Do you feel that-and you have also mentioned just as a matter of clarifi cation also-in your mandate there is no mention or no allusion to "status of womenw? Am I correct in that so far? Ms. Gault: As set out in the act, "status of womenw is not in the purpose described in the act. Mr. Reimer: What we are talking about is this little piece of paper here with about- Ms.

Gault: It looks like the right kind of printing. * (21 20) Mr. Reimer: Yes, with about four lines on it, which is just saying that they are changing the name from the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women to the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. Do you see anything other than that to be interpreted in your change of direction or your mandate or how you would continue operation? Ms. Gault: In my personal view, it is simple and straightforward . Mr. Reimer: Thank you very much. Madam Chair per son : Are there fur the r que stions? Thank you very much for your presentati on, Marilyn. Mr.

McCrae: To the people in this room, might I move a five-minu te recess? Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to take a five-minute recess? Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. This committee will resume at 9:30 p.m. *** The committee took recess at 9:21 p.m. After Reces s The committee resumed at 9:33 p.m. Madam Chairperson: Order, please. Would the comm ittee please com e to order. Our next presenter is Mrs. Roz Krahn, and I believe her presentation is being distri buted. Welcome, and you may proceed, Mrs. Krahn. Mrs.

Roz Krahn (Private Citizen): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, members of the Legislative Assembly. I apologize if many of my remarks are going to be a bit redundant. It has been said and said and said over again, but I suppose I shall proceed, much as I would like to come up with some witty repartee. My name is Roz Krahn. I am here as a private citizen, although I do sit on several women's groups, and one charity which I am very much involved with right now is raising funds towards building secondary-stage housing for abused women and children.

I am here to express my support for The Manitoba Advisor y Council on the Status of Women Amendmen t Act. The fact that the Man itoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women share the same acronym causes confusion to the general public. I understand the mandate does not change with the proposed name change, and therefore I cannot see the problem associated with changing the name to Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. I believe the time and the money could be spent on much more important issues.

The provincial government has shown its concern and commitment towards issues dealing with women by tightening laws governing family and domestic violence by the introduction of Family Violence Court, the first of its kind in Canada; by establishing the Domestic Violence Review whose mandate, I under stand, was to examine the administrati on of justice as it relates to domestic violence in Manitoba. The report had made specific recommendations to this government and from reading and wat ching reports through the media my understanding is many of the recommendations have been acted upon.

I also want to point out that while watc hing television Tuesday evening with my family, I saw a 24-hour crisis line for Winnipeg and a 24-hour toll-free crisis line for rural Manitoban women. I truly feel by these examples that our government has illustrated its commitment to alleviating violence in our society.

26 LEG ISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 Quite frankly, the use of the word "status" seems to narrow the scope of the organization and is rather an outdated concept. It is a term from the past associated with such issues as getting the vote, equal rights amendment and pay equity. I am not implying at all that these issues have been successfully addressed, but rath er, we have come a long way, baby. Let us get on with the job and not get hung up on semantics. Webster's Dictionary defines status as state or condition of person, position of affairs.

Roget's Thesaurus states the synonyms of status are footi ng, position and st anding. Witte l's and Graisman Thesaurus Dictionary indicates that status is similar in meaning to standing, position, station, class, division, grade and rank. The status of women is no longer the hot issue. The human rights Charter and other legislation is in place to solidify and entr ench individual rights and ensure equality of rank, class and position in today's society. Let us deal with sociological and economic realities facing women in the '90s. Ninety-e ight Canadian women, including 1 0 in Manitoba, were murdered last year.

Other national statistics disclose that one out of six men will choose to abuse their intimate partners. That translates to 77,000 Manitoba women over the age of 18 . Last year in Winnipeg 1 ,889 women and childr en sought temporary refuge at Osborne House. City police point out that of all the calls they receive, including traffic, break-ins, Autopac accidents, et cetera, one call in eight involves domestic violence. Let us get on with the job of dealing with these realities.

Politicians must continue to focus on the solutions to violence in today's society and find ways to protect, shelter, counsel, heal and educate victims of violence. Before I close, I would like to express my concern for the amount of time and energy being spent on debating this issue of name change. There are many more pressing issues that need to be addressed and a simple name change to alleviate the confusion is not a very good use of time. I would like, again, to express my support for this bill and thank you for the opportunity to express my views to the committee.

Madam Cha irperson: Are you pre pared to respond to questions, Mrs. Krahn? Mrs. Krahn: Yes. Ms. Barrett: Thank you for your presentat ion. I was parti cularly struck by the second to last page wher e you talk about the whole issue of domestic and other violence against women, and it is something I feel very str ongly in, as well, and share completely your concerns about. I do have one question. You say in the page before that that the statu s of women is no longer the hot issue, and then you go on to talk about, my sense is, the legal and legislated stuff that provides for equality.

It seems to me that when you talk then about all of the actualities that face women in Manitoba in our society that says that, while we may have the legal rights and statu s of equality, in actual fact we are very far from that. Does that not say to you that perhaps the status of women is still an issue, when we deal with the important realities that you are talking about? • (21 40) Mrs. Krahn: Madam Chairperson, status is always important. No one here denies that status is important.

Like the other speakers before us, it is a term that has become very confusing, and those of us out here in the public, we have a great deal of confusion with the status of this and the advisory council on the status of that, the national, the action committee. My charity group would like to network with these, but we do not know who and what each of these represents. It is a confusion out there. Ms. Barrett: One question of clarification then.

Are you saying that it is the fact that the two organizations have currently the identical name is the confusion, and if there was a change of name that included the "Status of Worn en" but did not have it in the same order, that would clarify it for you? Mrs. Kra hn: Madam Chairper son, that is a legislative debate that is occurring. For me to come as a delegate here of my own personal views, to me that is not important and I do not wish to enter into a debate on that, because I honestly believe it is too trivial. I am not a linguist, I am not a historian, so I do not wish to enter into that debate. Mrs.

Carstalrs: In your brief, one of the things you reference, of course, is the human rights chart er, you know, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and other legislation in place to solidify and entrench individual rights and ensure equality of rank, class and position in today's society. I have some concerns about whether the Charter is not under a bit of attack, and one of the things that I think the

March 5, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 27 Advisory Council has done extrem ely well is to represent that view. My concern is that in your presentation, do you not believe that issues of violence towards women are issues of their stat us? Mrs. Krahn: But would it make any difference if the council addressing it did not have status in its name? Mrs. Carstalrs: It may not make a difference to you, but obviously it does make a difference to a number of people who have made submissions to us. Do you have any problem with having the word "status" in the title of the council? Mrs.

Krahn: Madam Chairperson, I do, in that to me it is an old-fashioned term. It smacks of elitism, it smacks of class, class rights, rights because you belong to a certain class, not because you are a human being, because you are an individual. That is why I do not like "status." That is my own personal view. Madam Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mrs. Krahn. Beverly Suek. Ms. Gr ace lvey (Pri vate Cit izen) : Madam Chairman, I am representi ng Bev Suek. She could not be here tonight. My name is Grace lvey and you put me down as another present er, but I am just presenting for Bev.

Madam Chai rperson : Thank you for the clarification. Okay, so you are presenting on behalf of Beverley Suek. Ms. lvey: Right. Madam Chairperson: Thank you. Do you have copies of your presentat ion? Ms. lvey: Yes. Madam Chairperson: You may proceed. Ms. lv ey : Madam Chai rperson, honour able members, it is understandable that the Advisory Council wishes to change the name of the council in order to differentiate between the council and the Mani toba Action Committee on the Status of Women. This was always a source of confusion; the media rarely ever got it right.

However, if the intent is to clarify the role of the council, it is essential that the notion of increasing the status of women will be part of the new title. During my term as chairper son and now, of course, I am speaking for Bev, I found that the role of council was frequently misunderstood. We were asked by members of the public to comment on all kinds of issues, many of which were outside of our role as defined in the legislation. It was useful to us to be able to refer back to our title.

Our role, clearly, was to analyze issues in relation to their impact on the status of women, and to examine legislation and programs to ensure that they impacted positively on the status of women's equality in Manitoba. As an example, during my term as chairperson we produced a research paper on the Manitoba Lotteries Commission. As women and citizens of Manitoba, we could have commented on everything from accounting procedures to accommodations.

However, since our mandate clearly was to research issues in terms of women's equality status, we could reasonably limit ourselves to the impact of funding on women and women's organizations. When there are limited resources, as there are with the Advisory Council, it is important that the mandate be clear. We could not take on all issues of interest to women; we could examine the impact of programs to ensure that they increased the equality of the status of women.

The reason the Manitoba Advisory Council exists at all is that there is a recognition on the part of the governmen t that women are not yet equally represented in many important places in society; not in politics, not in senior levels of government, nor in trades and technology. Women still make 66 percent of the average income of men. An advisory council is an interim measure to work towards increasing women's representation and their overall status in society and the workplace . The hope is that one day women will be equally represented at all levels and the need for the Advisory Council will no longer exist.

In the meantime, the role needs to be clearly focused on the goal of achieving equality status. If the intent of the legislation is to clarify the role of council in the name, then I would strong ly suggest that including the words "Status of Women" be included in the title. As for my part here, I am very surprised at people taking issue with the words "Status of Women." It sounds very clear to me. It describes exactly what we are working on or what these various groups are worki ng on. I have no hangups on that title at all. Madam Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. Barbara Thompson. Ms.

Barbara Thompson (Private Citizen): I want to thank you very much for the opportunity-

28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 5, 1992 Madam Chairperson: Do you have copies of the- Ms. Thompson: No, I do not. Madam Chairperson: Okay, that is fine. Ms. Thompson: I just have jottings. Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to this issue. I will just tell you a little bit about why I am here tonight. I have had a long and sustained interest in issues related to poor and disadvantaged women and minorities. For two years I was a nursing instructor at Red River College where I taught in a program that helped women on welfare return to work. While working with those women I became even more attache d to the whole issue of poor, dis advantaged mino rities. I have

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-la1
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf la1.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e27d7b68e698eb2646f8dae92cbae80b9bf4fd53

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