Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 52 (30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-52

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8 p.m. Thursday, March 25, 1976 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1557 MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed this evening I would like to draw the atten tion of the honourable members to my gallery at the upper right where we have 15 m�m bers of the 149th Scout Troop, under the direction of Mr. T. Yanuska and Mr. K. F. Bettess. This Scout Troop is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Riel, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. I bid you welcome here on behalf of the Members of the Assembly this evening. SUPPLY - lABOUR I would refer honourable members to their Estimates Book, Page 38, Resolution 76(

a) Mechanical and Engineering. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, when the Minister was speaking on this item b.afore we adjourned at 4:30 he requested the Member from Sturgeon Creek to go home and think it over over supper hour. An:! I have done that. I've gone home and I have thought it over very very thoroughly and I find that as usual when the Minister is in a corner and knows he is wrong, he relates to calling down the person that made the statements.

All of a sudden I am an extreme right-winger, all of a sudden I haven't got any common sense, all of a sudden I'm a nice guy instead of a bad guy. You know, he was basically saying that he used to every time the Member for Fort Garry would get him cornered on something all of a sudden the Member for Fort Garry is a nice fella. Now here I am and I have got it in black and white, I have got it in black and white basically that the Minister is wrong, and so that same thing is happening to me, I'm now, a no common sense right winger, but I'm a nice guy. So, Mr.

Chairman, the game that the Minister is playing is one that I have learned in my six years here. I admit I have not been here as long as the Minister has, but I have learned some of his little tricks. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister insists that nothing is really wrong, he says that, you know, we are doing this for the benefit of safety, and that's the objective of the bill, and that is the objective of the regulations.

I have come along and I have said I agree with safety, I agree with having regulations, I agree with the bill to a certain extent, but I said we have now come to the point where we have found some obvious mistakes. You know, the Minister says well, it would be only common sense that a unit that doesn't have any mechanical in it would not have to have a label. I agree. Now we both agree, now I have proved it, but I have also said that isn't what the legislation said.

I have also said that the confusion within the legislation is there, and the confusion in the advertising of the Department is there, and I practically have an admission from the Minister that it is there. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to belabour this fact any longer, but I am going to remind the Minister of one point, there was a man who was in this House longer than he was - I shouldn't say was the Minister is still here - but the man who was the Premier of this Province at one time, Mr. D. L. Campbell, Premier D. L.

Campbell, I will never forget his words when we were passing a bill, the Expropriation Act - and I am sure the Minister remembers he was very concerned about that type of legislation - and one of the things he said in front of Law Amendments was, never mind all of this maybe stuff - and I'm sure the Minister has heard him say this - never mind saying, well this could happen or that could happen, he used to say, he said, "Put it in the bill. Let the people know exactly what the government can do and what they can't do." Now, Mr. Chairman, that is all that we are asking the Minister and his department to think of.

He insinuates that I am making references against the department that they are knowingly doing something wrong; that is not the case. I've dealt with the Department of Labour in the Mechanical Division over the years and I knew the men that were there, and I have seen inspectors operate, I have no complaint in that regard. I say that there is logical and reasonable reasons to make some changes in these regulations, and when you say no person shall, person means everybody. I will not back down on the fact that the charges are over, well they're more than they should be for what is being asked for,

1558 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. F, JOHNSTON cont'd) ••••• and I say that the people who own trailers and things at the present time are going to be the ones that suffer, and it's nothing more than a tax on them. Mr. Chairman, under the same

section we have CSA, and I mentioned CSA earlier and the Minister, oh did he get all excited about the fact that I had said something about CSA, I said at the time, don't let yourself become trapped with a group of manufacturers in any place at any time who say, that because I have got CSA nobody that hasn't got CSA can sell products within this area, I assure you there was a time when I owned a CSA label in my own home, and I know what it takes to get a CSA approval.

I !mow the cost involved, and I know companies that said, the devil with it, I'm not going to pay that because the label I have got has a higher standard than CSA. I can name some standards in North America, and in Eurooe, that are higher standards than CSA, and our Department of Labour should recognize high standards when they come in here and not just say CSA is the only, one and only thing in this province. --(Interjection)-- Mr.

Chairman, I didn't say you did, the Minister did, I said I warned the Minister not to get trapped and not to sit down with the industry that he read out to me, he read out the names previously of all the people who wrote this legislation, and he said those are the ones that wrote the legislation, and as I said, an NDP socialist government taking the advice and going completely on the advice of the manufacturers and distributors on something that can be harmful to the people is the type of thinking that I would expect from this government. So Mr. Chairman, I am going to leave it now.

I have every right as a member to amend this bill, or recommend an amendment to this bill on the basis that would take out the reference to certain types, which is not in here now, and when I do bring in the amendment, or when I present a resolution to that effect that it should be done, I'm pretty well assured, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister agrees with me because he has just as much as said so today, that you know the object of the bill is safety. I know that there are some things that go wrong from time to time, we cannot cover everything, and I agree.

But when you don't, when you don't pay any attention to something that's drawn to your attention as being a mistake, I'm very surprised, and I'd only end by saying I refer to Premier Campbell's statement, which I have heard him make on two occasions, put it in the bill and make the legislation right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 76(a), Salaries. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to raise another point with the Minister in this area of building and mechanical and engineering responsibilities that he carries. --(Interjection)--That•s right.

Now the Minister has been around a long time and he knows what to expect. --(Interjection)--That•s right. Well, I'm glad to see that the Minister has been prepared for this, and I didn't want to disappoint him because I knew that he had been sitting there waiting for it, and I would feel that his evening wouldn't have been made if we didn't have a discussion. But I think in all seriousness, Mr.

Chairman, the issue that we have brought to the attention of this House in the past about the ways and means by which we can improve the safety and preventive features of building when it comes to fire, has been brought home with an impact that all of us wish we could have avoided.

And I, as the Minister knows, felt a particular poignancy because I recall back a year ago when I was talking about the problems of older apartment blocks, and I had in mind a particular apartment block in my con<,dtuency which I had visited on occasion, a place called Fort Garry Court, and the regret I have is that that prophecy about the problems that were attached to older apartment blocks unfortunately came true.

And the fire that took place there a month or so ago was only a most sorrowful kind of event, I suppose that anyone has to witness in an area that he represents, but I think it hammers home once again the emphasis and necessity for us in this House to begin to look at this issue of the kinds of protection we provide, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say that there are a variety of ways which government at all levels can go about looking at the question of fire prevention and the training of fire departments, the supply of equipment, the kind of standards that are imposed, but one of

March 25, 1976 1559 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• the critical areas that has an effect upon fire itself is in the area of building codes and standards and the requirements for mechanical and engineering requisites that are put into buildings.

And one of the things that I would simply like to state to the Minister, I think of in pretty bald terms, is that while I wel come the introduction of a new building code I would suggest that when it comes to mat ters of fire protection; that new building code is already obsolescent, and that to assume that somehow by simply applying the new code on October 1st many of our problems will have been solved, is simply I think running against the facts./ Because the real reality of the situation that comes to the question of fire is one that constantly needs upgrading and improvement and changes as we begin to recognize the dilemmas that we face in the urban environment.

First as we begin to build structures that are larger and bigger and taller and bulkier, begin to implant into them a new variety of technologies, and while that is going on, while we're becoming more fancy in our ways of constructing mechanical gooas in the city, at the same time many of the existing structures are getting older or are deteriorating and are beginning to fall down, just like people, and that we all run into - I guess we all suffer from a degree of obsolescence. --(Interjection)--Well, as the saying goes, Mr. Chairman, sometimes when you grow older you get better.

I'm not so sure I'd apply it to all company included--(Interjection)--including the Minister of course. But the fact of the matter is that buildings unfortunately, they may become more archi tecturally interesting, but--(Interjection)--We get that, that's right. That's only because of all those self-inducing hormones you take. --(Interjection)--Mr. Chairman, I hope we can concentrate our remarks on the question of fire protection. The issue I want to raise is simply that in the last couple of years the kind of standards that we felt were adequate for protection have simply proven to be inadequate.

And let me provide some examples which I think should have some bearing upon what's going on in the City of Winnipeg. To begin with, Mr. Chairman, the City of Winnipeg did introduce a new by-law that was designed to upgrade the standards within buildings themselves. Now one of the problems of any by-law is it has to be enforced, and unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, many by-laws don't get enforced as rapidly as are required. So it's not enough simply to bring in a new law, you have to ensure that the means are there for enforcement.

And one of the things that .we find out is that the enforcement procedures that we have on many of our standards are not adequate, but neither are they visited often enough, or upgraded often enough, but that simply the manpower isn't often there. We have an inspection sys tem in the City of Winnipeg which is divorced from the fire department itself, and often times the two don't meet.

To give you another example, I don't believe, and I think the Minister could correct me, I don't believe that the insurance adjusters, or they have a new name, the Fire Underwriters Association, or whatever it's new name is, that's undertaking a new insurance rating for the City of Winnipeg for 10 years. Now the standards by which the insurance companies establish standards have an awful lot to do with the safety protec tions that are built into buildings because they set your rates. And I believe, Mr.

Chairman, and I could be corrected, but I don't believe that those have been re assessed now for a period of eight to ten years. In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, a lot of things have changed, a lot of new buildings have come up, a lot of buildings have grown older, and a lot of equipment has declined, So I would simply point out that beyond the passage of a new law or the introduction of a new building by-law or code comes an awful lot of human frailties about how we enforce or apply or implement these standards. Let me give you another example, Mr.

Chairman, that one of the new technolo gies, of which I guess we have all experienced in new buildings, is those remarkable instruments that when you go to touch an elevator button you don't have to touch it because there's a heat sensory device and it immediately responds to your touch. Interesting gim mick, useful I suppose, but it reacts to the heat of a persons hand. So I would suggest, Mr, Chairman, there are a variety of new buildings, office buildings, department stores, and otherwise in the city which use that device as a way of controlling the elevator sys tem.

In the last year in the City of New York in a very serious office fire they found

1560 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• out that one of the problems, it didn't affect the damage to property but it did affect the loss of life, is that when people require an elevator to get from the 12th floor and if a fire is on the 9th floor, then what happens because of that heat sensory device in the elevator shaft the door opens at the 9th floor and all the smoke and fire comes in. In other words, if you're on the 12th floor your escape access by elevator is totally eliminated by that particular technology, which is not included in any of our building code standards.

We don't say, "Thou shalt not include those kinds of heat sensory devices." And yet the discovery was recent, it's based upon experience of other people, and we're saying, now I would simply say to the Minister it's an example like that which concerns me. To give you another example, Mr. Chairman, in our own city. I believe it was this fall the issue in the Medical Arts Building itself because the alarm system is con nected to the loudspeaker system and both had electric default, so in effect, that building was without any kind of protection, and it was one of the reasons they discovered it.

Often times the wiring that connects these buildings are connected again to the elevator shaft, which are the most vulnerable areas in case of a fire because the elevator shaft often becomes the area in which the heat gravitates most quickly. I would point out still a third example, Mr. Chairman, and that is that we have now become concerned about energy, and we have certain Ministers of the Crown encour aging everyone to become more conservation-minded. One of the ways we become conser vation minded is to improve the insulation in buildings.

One of the basic standard goods that we use in insulation is polyurethane foam products which have a high toxic smoke factor. Once they light fire they create a great deal of smoke, which again is not damag ing to the building but seriously damaging to the people who are in it. And again that is not something that is necessarily picked up in the standards that we have. And so I'm simply saying, Mr.

Chairman, at this point and that is that I think that we can no longer assume automatically that the National Building Code that was applied and was developed two or three or four years ago in testing in the National Standards Group in Ontario is frankly adequate to our needs. It may be adequate if we're worried about the protection of property but it may not be in any way adequate if we're concerned about the protection of persons. One of the advantages that you must have in any fire protection system within a building is the requirement to decide whether you're protecting property or protecting lives.

Because the two often require very different standards or they may complement one another but they are different standards that are applied. One of the things that you can discover is it is the insurance rating which often times determines the standards of fire protection. They're much more concerned about property than they are about lives. Let me go one step further on this, Mr. Chairman.

Aside from those kinds of peculiarities of a new technology that exists, it has been reported I think dramatically in the study that the advisory commission that the government undertook a year or so ago, and almost in every other study, that if you're interested and concerned about protecting lives, the most effective way known right now is in smoke detector systems, either in terms of individual residential buildings or in large apartment blocks. Now those are not required by our building codes at the present moment and we say for good reason. Because they are expensive to introduc e.

So let's carry a particular scenario through. We are also very much concerned at the present moment with a bill called Rent Control, Rent Stabilization. We have to place that requirement of trying to restrict the costs that are borne by an apartment owner by the requirement to provide adequate pro tection and I'm afraid, Mr. Chairman, we've been making the wrong choices.

I come back to an issue that we raised with the Minister a year ago and that is that if you are trying to introduce adequate protection then you must provide ways of ensuring that some incentive is given for an introduction of those techniques such as smoke detector systems. They are very expensive items. I'll give you one example, Mr. Chairman, that even in our own Manitoba Government Insurance Corporation, it's the only insurance corporation that gives a certain discount for the introduction of smoke detector systems. But only a ten percent discount which doesn't anywhere near cover the cost.

In a private residential

March 25, 1976 1561 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• home where most of the fires occur, you are intro ducing a system that might be a $600 or $700 cost. The discount from our own govern ment insurance corporation might be ten percent which might be $50 ::>r $60. In other words there is no effort at this present moment to develop either a financial system or a required system to begin introducing in an effective way smoke detector systems as an adequate means of protection.

Here I think is an unqualified judgment by most people in the field that that is, if you're protecting lives, that is one of the most effective ways of doing it. Now I don't minimize the costs that can be encountered if you want to move towards that system. But there are trade-offs. I can give you an example of a city in the United States, Fresno, California, which by many accounts has the most effective fire protective system in buildings.

They started making certain trade-offs, that in older apartment blocks, if they would include a smoke detector system, then they wouldn't have to move to the closing off of stairwells and such like. In other words they said that the smoke detector system therefore doesn't require the kind of reconstruction of stairwells which we now require in most of our older buildings. In other words it gave the option and choice and probably ended up with a more effective kind of protection as a result. And we don't have, Mr. Chairman, that kind of flexibility.

I guess the thing that concerns me is that the issue of this kind of protection is one that has been treated in a relatively offhand fashion. I don't say by the Minister because I think the Minister himself has directed attention. I don't know if the govern ment has, I'm certainly sure that this Legislative Assembly hasn't really concentrated and devoted the attention to that kind of issue that is required. Because I really think that it is something that we can no longer ignore.

The kind of estimates that are being made in terms of the adequacy of protective systems in the older buildings, high rlse apartment and office buildings compared to the changing conditions, the continued deterioration of older buildings and more of them as each year goes by and the increasing concentration of high rise apartment blocks, I think should be a matter of grave concern to this House and frankly, I don't think it has been. I would only say, Mr.

Chairman . • • up an Advisory Committee that has estab lished certain directions in the whole are of fire protection and I expect that when we deal with the Fire Commissioner's Office later on we'll have the opportunity to deal more comprehensively with some of the other issues.

But in this one area of standards of buildings in the mechanical and engineering instruments and machinery that goes into them, I am simply saying that the Building Code that's being introduced is not good enough, it's not adequate enough and that what we really require at this stage is major - no longer any studies, no longer any reviews, no longer any attempts and sort of saying, we'll examine the situation, I think we need some very positive actions.

And again I don't minimize the difficulty of those actions that interfere when we're dealing with rent control and all the rest of it, it's a very delicate matter. But that in fact is something that should be considered in the Rent Control bill itself, to what degree do we provide some benefits if we're going to impose stricter standards in the requirement for more protective machinery in apartment build ings for the protection of life and services. So Mr.

Chairman, I would simply say that in this particular area, I would hope that we could get into some serious discussion at this moment as to what can be done, and decide that we're not going to spend an awful lot more time simply in more talk and more discussion, but perhaps as a result of the debate on the Minister's Estimates in this area, concentrate on that particular issue so that we don't have to constantly make excuses or find rationalization for what happened in Fort Garry Court a month or so ago.

Because I think there has been enough evidence compiled, and the facts are clear that the increase in property destruction and lives is increasing at an unacceptable rate in the Province of Manitoba, in the City of Winnipeg, and it therefore requires very immediate action right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the expertise of my honourable

1562 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• friend the Member for Fort Rouge.

As a result of what he has just said, and his knowledgeability and solutions of all of the problems that we are confronted with insofar as high rise apartments, I certainly am going to recom mend to the authorities who have the dealings or an involvement with the formulation of building codes in Canada, and of course across the whole of the North American Continent, I'm going to suggest that they second my honourable friend from the University of Winnipeg into the area of methodologies and regulations pertaining to high rise construc tions and buildings, and recommend to them that they've really been missing the boat because of the knowledgeability of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge; because it does appear to me from listening to my honourable friend, and I do listen to him, that we've been going in the wrong course, that we don't know what we're talking about, and that he is so knowledgeable of what is required that they have been missing the boat.

I would suggest to my honourable friend, and I say this in all due respect to my honour able friend that he has been missing the boat, too, dealing with such mediocre affairs as urban studies and the likes of this in the University of Winnipeg, that he could have been making a far greater contribution to the well-being and the safety of humanity if he were to be involved in compiling the requirements under the building codes of Canada. So I respect my honourable friend but I sometimes wonder however whether he has really taken the time out to look at what is going on.

I mentioned earlier today, or earlier in the Estimates, Mr. Chairman, that we are going to adopt the National Building Code for the Province of Manitoba as of October 1st. And why are we going to adopt that? We're going to adopt that because we recognize the input of people of expertise in this particular field in Canada, and I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that those that are involved in the compilation of the regulations under the Building Code of Canada have also been in consul tation with their counterparts right across the North American Continent and also across the pond as well.

But I am sure my honourable friend has much to contribute. I would say to my honourable friend, he mentioned about the sensory input of elevator buttons, this has been a matter of concern for some considerable time and is under constant review, and when an elevator message button is activated by body heat, as it is at the present time, we know of that; the building constructors know it; the indus try knows of it.

He's correct when he says an input of heat in a given area, it might render ineffective the elevator system because of that, but I would also suggest to my honourable friend, unless he has an alternative - which I haven't heard from him - of some different type of message insofar as the operation of elevators is concerned, that he should recognize that this is a fact. He mentions the question of polyurethane insulation.

When that first came onto the market it appeared as though it was more or less of an answer to many of the prob lems in insulation and as time went on it was decided, or at least became evident, that here again was a commodity that wasn't the end answer. I again say in due respect to my honourable friend, that the question of building standards, standards of construction, is an ongoing process. Not only insofar as the fire departments are concerned, and fire protection is concerned, but in other areas as well.

Now, my friend may fault me and fault the department, and the Fire Commis sioner's office, and incidently, Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to have the Fire Commissioner of Manitoba, Mr. Gus Thorimbert with me this evening, because I knew what my honour able friend, or some of my friends were going to raise the question of fire protection. I'm pleased to have Mr. Thorimbert with me, who has made a considerable indepth con tribution in the area of fire protection in the Province of Manitoba, and incidentally, and just as an aside, Mr.

Chairman, on Saturday, in the City of Brandon there's going to be a Conference of the Fire Chiefs of Manitoba, a meeting to consider further developments in the field of fire protection and fire prevention. I guess it would not be out of place for me to invite my honourable friend the Member for Fort Rouge, who is interested in this area, to come up to that Conference in Brandon on Saturday. One of the items under discussion at that conference will be the Report of the Fire Advisory Committee established by this government a year or so ago to look into all aspects of fire prevention and fire protection.

I did forward, Mr. Chairman, a copy of I

March 25, 1976 1563 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••. that report to my honourable friend the Member for Fort Rouge, the other day, and I am sure that he has inwardly digested, or at least I hope that he has, much of the contents in that particular documentation, which I feel is goo:I.

But I do want to say to my honourable friend, despite or in spite of his expertise, and I don't mean this derogatorily of my honourable friend, because this is one of the facts of life that we have to be confronted with in the operation of the Department in Fire Prevention, one of the facts of life is that you can build a building that is absolutely fire proof--(Interjection)--and fire-foolproof, and that the building can have all the devices that are available for fire prevention, but there's another factor that far exceeds the input of insulation and construction methodology, Mr.

Chairman, and that is the human element. I would venture to say, that despite the inadequacy of some of our elevator devices to call the elevator from the 18th floor down to the 5th floor, and the likes of that, the greatest cause of the loss of life as a result of fire is not construction, it is not smoke detection devices, but is the human element involved.

I want to say to my honourable friend, you can have all of the asbestos, fire preventive walls, in a high rise apartment, no matter what the number of storeys in that apartment, you bring in his wife or my wife, or anybody else's wife, we take into that apartment that we purchased or rent, we take in their furniture, built of combustible materials, we have gorgeous looking drapes that are actually fire hazards to the word go, that even a spark from a cigarette of those that smoke can start a conflagration that will destroy the most fireproof building except that the shell will stand up.

This is a fact of life, and we can talk all we like, Mr. Chairman, of building construction, and I suggest of course this is our responsibility, and that is one of the reasons that we're trying here in the Province of Manitoba, and the other provinces as well, in consort with the federal authorities to establish a building co:le for our great Dominion, that will prevent loss of life as a result of fire.

But we have to go a step further, and I frankly confess and admit that, and I trust and hope that my Honourable friend� from Fort Rouge with all of his knowledgeability will recognize the human factor in fire as well. We can construct fireproof buildings, and then as I indicated a moment or two ago, Mr. Chairman, we can bring into that fire proof construction fire hazardous furniture, draperies and carpets and bedding, people smoking in bed, and the likes of that, that really offsets all of the endeavours insofar as construction is concerned.

You can have smoke detectors galore that will send off bells, or the ringing of bells, and the likes of that, which may give a false sense of security to the inhabitants of a building.

I know, I went down to Toronto here about two years ago in one of the newest hotels that they have in Toronto, and I had no sooner put my bags down in my room then the bells started to ring outside, and I said to the steward on the floor, "There's a fire, we'd better get out of here." "Oh, don't worry about that, some body has been smoking near the smoke detector and it's gone off so don't pay any atten tion to it." We had a similar situation here in the City of Winnipeg, according to news reports, and I don't want to refer to it precisely because the matter is under investiga tion, that because of the ineffectiveness of certain types of the detectors that people had got used to the ringing of bells as a warning in a fire.

So all of these things have an association. And I have yet to be able to find or to read of a building, notwithstanding its construction, notw ithstanding its allegedly fireproofness, that has not been a building that there could likely be a fire and loss of human life as a result. There are those that suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the firefighting equipment can not go above the lOth floor, and I think this is a generally accepted basis that our present firefighting equipment, that is from ground level up, is ineffective really beyond the loth floor.

Welre still building skyscrapers that go up 20 and 30 floors with this knowledgeability and the only egress from the buildings may be a helicopter that comes down and lands on the roof. And these are the facts of life. Now possibly my honourable friend the Member for Fort Rouge would suggest to me that we should introduce legislation here in Manitoba, not only Manitoba but elsewhere

1564 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• as well, that we should prohibit the construction of any building that exceeds 10 floors. Now I don't !mow if my honourable friend, whom I under stand is more or less of a free enterpriser, would suggest such a step to be taken in order that the provisions that we have for fighting fire and fire safety should be put into effect. Another matter, if I understood my honourable friend correctly, related to fire insurance rates and the changing of fire insurance rates.

I believe he indicated some if they hadn't been changed over 10 years - I may be being a bit unfair but that's what I thought that he said. May I indicate to him that there has been quite a change in fire insurance rates over the last few years, and

whereas there used to be a fire insurance policy that would cover three years, I think they're pretty hard to get now, that each fire policy, insurance policy, is based on one year. And, of course, there's another factor, too, my honourable friend may be aware of, I doubt very much whether there are any fire insurance policies left, they're home insurance policies now that cover basically all aspects of protection for the home, fire, burglary, public liability. I think that's about the only type of policy that you can buy now, although there may still be a few around that only cover fire insurance.

And, of course, I need not say to my honourable friend as far as the operation of the Fire Commissioner's office is concerned that the major involvement of the funds come from an assessment on the home protection or fire policies that he buys, and that I buy, and the rest, in order to provide for the financial input into the depart ment which is constantly working in an endeavour to cut down on the incident of fire and the provision of guidance for fire protection. My honourable friend, Mr. Chairman, mentioned about the building code and the older buildings.

I want to say that the Fire Commissioner's Department in co-operation, particularly with the City of Winnipeg, are having constant review into the adequacy or the inadequacy of fire prevention, fire protection in the older buildings, not only here in the City of Winnipeg, but across the province as well. But I would ask my honourable friend how he would approach the situation insofar as upgrading the older buildings.

Would he as of today, say, that the buildings should not be occupied until they have been brought up to 1976 standards, which are far different than the standards of the buildings that were built 20-25 years ago? I doubt if even he, as concerned as he is, and just as concerned as I am, would agree to that approach. So in the interim I say in all due respect we're trying to make people aware, collectively and individually, of the results of a lack of appreciation as to the possibility of the incident of fire in their respective buildings, and this is one of the programs that is ongoing.

It could conceivably be that my honourable friend the Member for Fort Rouge would say, "Okay, Mr. Minister, tell them to get out until their buildings are upgraded. " But by-laws change every year.

Yesterday, I believe it was, when I was speaking in con nection with the new building code that we're going to adopt, I indicated that it was going to be a loose leaf document because by-laws are constantly being upgraded as we've become more lmowledgeable as to the requirements to achieve building safety and fire safety, and when the building code is formally introduced for the populace on October 1st, it will be that type of a documentation. I agree with my friend the Member for Fort Rouge that it is an ongoing process.

I do say to him, however, that we can talk as much as we like about fireproof construc tion, until and unless we have fireproof people and commodities that go into a fireproof building, we're going to be confronted with the problems that we have at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I share the concern of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge and the Minister for safety and protection in this field, and I appreciate the Minister's comments on the subject.

There is another aspect in the area of mechanical and engineering consideration under his purview that I would like to ask him about briefly, and that is the provision in building codes and in standards with which construction is required to conform for handi capped persons and consideration of their difficulties. The National Building Code which the Minister refers to which is being upgraded and developed and will presumably serve

March 25, 1976 1565 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) • • • • • as a model later this year for development of a new building code here has already in the past, in its present form, laid down certain stipula tions and provisions for accommodation of the handicapped person in our society, and it's of course incumbent upon all of us at the provincial level and elsewhere to make our pro grams and our standards and our stipulations conform as quickly as possible.

I would assume that the building code being developed here, being devised here and being patterned on the National Code, will contain widespread provision for acknowledgement of the prob lems of the handicapped and for accommodation of them and their difficulties.

It has been brought to my attention in the past that despite the professed intention of governments and officials to move in this field with some dispatch, the intentions have sometimes outdistanced the actual event and in many cases there have been structures and buildings and renovations and improvements undertaken in this jurisdiction and others that have not taken into account the special difficulties of the handicapped who comprise a sub stantial and significant portion of our population as rm sure the Minister would agree. There's no argument about their significance.

There might have been at one time an argu ment about their size, but I think that cannot be minimized any longer. They comprise a substantial percentage of the population. Persons who suffer from physical disabilities ranging from partial to almost and indeed to total physical immobility and the responsibility that all of us in government, whether on the government or the opposition side of the House have to recognize that fact of life :in our society, to recognize and appreciate their condition and to include them in our plans and in our facilities, cannot be stressed too strongly.

I'm sure the Minister agrees on that point. I would like to hear from him just what is being done to enshrine that kind of attitude. It's all well and good for us to talk about it. It's been raised in this House before during my tenure here, but talk is not enough, and I would enjoin the Minister to work with his department and to work with the building and construction industry generally to enshrine these kinds of things that we acknowledge in the realities in the marketplace; in the realities in the building structures that are going up around us, and indeed within those that are already built and being used.

It was not many weeks ago that there was a major conference of physically handi capped persons in the City of Winnipeg which I think represented a signal and a highly commendable step forward in that particular community, and indeed in the total community.

The people who suffer from physical disabilities and who attended that conference took, I think, a very important and a very commendable step forward in trying to organize them selves into a cohesive voice, a cohesive action force that could provide greater impact and greater emphasis to the message that they want to bring to government and to the rest of the community.

Certainly nowhere is it better demonstrated that in unity is strength than in that kind of organization, because when people suffering from that kind of misfor tune are not organized and are not united in their actions they are all too often overlooked and ignored regrettably by governments and by the rest of society.

But when they are able to tie themselves into a cohesive force and unite to get their message across, there is great strength, there is great impact and hopefully there will be great effect, so I think that that was a very important and a very progressive step for that handicapped community to take.

The message from them was clear to all of us that they are people too, and they are members of our community and our society too, and they must be given their full entitlement to these same opportunities to make the best of their talents and abilities that the non-handicapped have, and that includes being taken into consideration in so vital an area as building codes and specifications. So I recommend that thought and that posi tion to the Minister once again. I think we've discussed it in this House before, but not in this session.

It's timely that it should be raised again, and I ask him to assure us that these things are not just being talked about but are actually being enshrined in the codes that we live under. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad the Honourable Member for Fort Garry raised this question of the provision for the personnel who use wheelchairs, because it does give me an opportunity of indicating the concern, not only of the Minister of Labour but other members of this House. I look at my friend, the Honourable Member for

1566 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• Assiniboia. We have been each of us, I think, involved in the problems of the handicapped over a few years now, and I'm not bragging about it, but maybe honourable members will recall a couple of years ago I made suggestions that it would be a good gesture on the part of the members of this Assembly for each of us to put in about a $20. 00 bill for the purchase of an electric wheelchair for some handicapped person. It sort of fell on deaf ears, or at least it was never ever carried through.

There was the Honourable for Assiniboia, the Honourable Member for Minnedosa and the Minister of Labour - we had our pictures taken together when an electric wheelchair was donated to a handicapped person, and we felt that possibly the members of the Assembly would carry forward this gesture - but that's really an aside. I'm only saying that, Mr. Chairman, to indicate the concern of some members of the Assembly, as I'm sure that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry has of our handicapped citizens.

I do want to say to my honourable friend that Manitoba has gone ahead in this area to a far greater degree than most provinces in Canada, because two years or so ago we adopted what is called Supplement No. 5 to the Building Code of Canada, that made it an oblii?Jltion in construction to make provision for wheelchair personnel. We've already done it. And in any new construction from that time on has had to comply with Supplement No. 5 of the Building Code of Canada.

I also want to say to my honourable friend that the Building Code of Manitoba will contain, and does contain, a provision that in all new construction there has to be provision for handicapped persons and persons who are required because of their physical condition to use wheelchairs. Regrettably, Mr. Chairman, this is not a provision of the Dominion Building Code.

So I say to my honourable friend, the Member for Fort Garry, because of our concern on a humanitarian basis or any other basis you want to say, the Building Code of Manitoba has provisions for that and will have - and why I say "will have" is because we've already adopted by Order-in-Council Supplement No. 5 of the Building Code of Canada. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek a wee while ago made reference to a former Premier of the Province of Manitoba, Mr. D. L.

Campbell, and how pleased I was about two years or so ago to attend the annual meeting of the Society for Crippled Children and Adults to share a platform with Mr. Campbell, and also with Mr. Justice Jimmy Wilson who has been very much involved in 1he affairs of the handicapped.

We shared the platform where the Society for Crippled Children - and I'm not trying to blow smoke up my kilt at all, but we shared on that particular evening recognition because of our involvement on behalf of the people who use wheelchairs and the recognition of the Society of Crippled Children and Adults because we had adopted as one of the first prov inces the extension of the Building Code for the provision for our handicapped children, and I'm sure my honourable friend, the Member for Assiniboia will substantiate basically what I'm saying. So I say to my honourable friend, I appreciate his concern.

There's no question or doubt about it. I do say this, that there still are a number of buildings, the older buildings that haven't got that provision, but there will be provisions in our building code that where there are, for the want of some other expression, relatively major re construction, that they will have to conform to the building code for the provision of facilities for our handicapped personnel. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Could I ask the Minister a question, Mr. Chairman.

I appre ciate his reassurance that this kind of provision already exists in Manitoba, certainly with respect to new buildings, but he has told us that a new code will be formulated by October 1st of this year.

Certainly there are buildings constructed in this country today and even in this province today, and unless I am completely mistaken, I stand to be corrected, perhaps I'd better not say it in such declamatory fashion, but it is my impression that there are buildings, perhaps they are Federal Government buildings built tmder the Federal Building Code, but what I would like to be assured by the Minister that this new code which we will be conforming to, or which we will be patterning our code on on October 1st will contain this kind of provision and this kind of firm regulation.

The Federal Code is going to be no good to us as a master and as a guide and it's going to

March 25, 1976 1567 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ••••• be no good to handicapped persons if there is not a consistency in this area between the Provinc ial Code and the Federal Code. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, in answer to my honourable friend, it has been a provision on new construction for the last two years, regardless of the Federal Code, because we did adopt that for the Province of Manitoba.

What I tried to impart is, that while we have as our base the Federal Building Code, it will be a requirement under the Provincial Building Co::le, the additional provision for the handicapped people which is not conta:ined, as I understand it, as of present in the Federal Co::le, but in this area we're go:ing beyond the Federal Code, as we have been doing for the last two years. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just wish to say a few things under this item :in respect to the same very :interesting topic that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry and the Minister of Labour are :involved in. At the outset I would like to compliment the Minister for how receptive he has been in respect to this legislation, because I can go back for many years. I've sat for some eight years as Chairman of the CPA, and probably 10 or 11 years on the Board.

I recollect quite accurately when we had to go to the Metro Council quite often to present our proposals so that Council at that time would accept the Supplement No. 5, and accept the National Building Code, and we really had problems :in this area, serious problems.

One out of seven people has some disability that affects quite seriously in North America, in this country, and we found ourselves :in this city, as the same :in many other cities, that many of the handi capped could not get :in through doors, could not get to washrooms, could not get into public build:ings never mind private build:ings, and this presented a serious problem; we were confronted with architectural barriers, we were confronted with transportation prob lems. I compliment the M:inister, I think he's been most receptive in this area.

Also I know that - he mentioned something about two years ago where he made a very substantial contribution in respect to the donation of a wheelchair but somehow he didn't communicate with his Minister of Health and Social Development, when the M:inister of Health and Social Development immediately a couple months, made a provision to the legislation that the government would be responsible for all the wheelchairs and somehow the program that we thought we would have :in this House became redundant, maybe not completely, but I do know that the contribution that the Minister made.

Now I know that many people :in this area have done a tremendous job. Jimmy Wilson chaired our committee and prepared the many briefs that were presented to the government and Metro Council and eventually to the city. Now I know we have even, if we talk about the Planetarium, there is no provision for handicapped people to get in there, there's a spiral staircase. We had the situation when the new Eaton's store was built in Polo Park, we had to fight with the architects and say: What are you doing? And spent time, it took hours and hours. When the Richardson Centre was developed, the same thing.

The only means of communication we had, or leverage we had, was to get hold of the architect and say: What are you do:ing for the handicapped? What are you doing for people that have prob lems? For architectural barriers there should be a standard co:le. So there were great difficulties, and I'm saying that the difficulties are not totally solved. Because like the Minister says, there are still many buildings that perhaps should be required to put doors that are two inches wider, which isn't a cost factor, it's maybe $1. 60 a door, because at the time we priced it. It may be more now.

I could mention to the Minister, we have a new hotel in my constituency. It's two or three storeys high and there is no elevator. There's no elevator in that hotel. There's functions going on :in the basement part and then you've got your floors above, and it's unfortunate because we've had people :in there and there's no way for them to move. I think that that's a public build:ing where that should never happen, there should be an elevator. I may mention to the former Minister of Education, the Member for Seven Oaks, I know we had great difficulty :in one of the schools where at that time there was no

1568 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. PATRICK cont'd) ••••• provisions made for the elevator. Again I think we presented about three or four briefs, and it was no, there's no way we're going to get an elevator, in an area where we had many handicapped students come in to take special courses , because Sturgeon Creek Regional was not just an ordinary school, it was a regional school. After enough pressure was put to bear, the Minister at that time saw fit that there was provision made, which I compliment him for. But my point is that we haven't done everything.

There's such things as sidewalks where we can remove the curb, which they 've done in cities like Minneapolis completely, which took thousands of miles . In that city they've removed the curb in all the old sidewalks. So there's many areas that improvements could be made. I'm concerned when we have a new hotel, three storeys , and there's no elevator in that hotel. So , Supplement 5, it's adopted and I said there had to be petitions and briefs; on the goo:l works of Jimmy Wilson as chairing that committee, which it was accepted.

I'm sure that the Minister remembers some eight years , the first year that the Minister became Minister of Labour, I presented a resolution in this House for the adoption of the National Building code which was adopted, went to the Municipal Committee for hearings and was adopted. Naturally there' s changes every year. So I compliment the Minister to what has been done in this area because he's most receptive, but I don't think that everything is done , so there has to be.

One other area that I want to be very brief on, and I know that my colleague from Fort Rouge has talked about the highrise and older buildings. I would like at this time to ask the Minister in respect to new highrise construction in the city which does concern me, the ones that exceed ten floors . He mentioned ten floors.

Now there's no equipment even at that point at the present time - past ten floors, I'm talking about - because from the statistics I have, I understand after five minutes after the fire has started, after five minutes that the fire has started at the bottom floor, the first four floors would be completely in smoke. That' s from, I think, National Building Code report. That the entire elevator shaft on the first floor and the staircases would be covered with smoke. So we have to be concerned about the highrise. What is the automatic - is there automatic smoke detectors now required in all of them?

The fire dampers. I know that the concrete will never burn in those things, but the material that goes in a lot of those, the insulation and the furniture inside will burn so quickly and that's what causes the fire. So there is a concern, such things as early warnings, and that we have to be concerned with smoke control, putting the fire out. I am concerned about the highrise. Is there any consideration given to put a solid fire wall almost making - when you're talking about 25 storeys or 30 storeys , is there a solid wall requirement? And I don't believe it is at the present time .

What you're having is almost a two structured building where people can move from one side completely to the other side, and if we're going to go to such highrise construction I think that this is something that we have to consider, Mr. Chairman. I believe that the most effective, and so :far from the experience that we have, is the sprinkler system has been the best and most effective from all experience all over the world. I understand that statistics indicate that the sprinkler system has demonstrated some 97 percent efficiency in North America which has been very effective.

I understand in New Ze aland and Australia that some 122 highrises that have been tested for many many years , there has been 100 percent efficiency in those areas. So I am concerned , Mr. Speaker, because I know there's cash involved, there's costs involved, but at the same time I think that we have to be concerned about the consumer and that's the life that's involved in that building and if we will allow the real highrise, over ten storeys , then I think we should seriously start giving consideration to building safe buildings.

I know that this is the requirement of hospitals , but if you will be going to such highrise structures , then I think that there should be a requirement that we put a solid wall in those buildings so that if there is a fire, people can go to the other side and it's com pletely se lf-contained . It's just like two buildings. Has that amendment been made to the National Building Code ? If it hasn't - the solid wall inside buildings that are over ten storeys high, the solid wall insi de, the concrete wall which is maldng it almost like

March 25, 1976 1569 SUPP L Y - lABOUR (MR� PA TRICK cont' d) • • • • • two buildings, which is the requirement in most hos pitals now. What I'm saying to the Minister, if there hasn't been an amendment to the National Building Code, perhaps this is something that we could look at if we'll allow the 25 storey structures and the 30 storey struc tures .

I know it' ll be an extra expense but maybe consideration should be given to the human life which is very important, that there be a requirement for a solid wall inside these highrise structures making it like two buildings; if there is a fire on one side, it' s a complete separate unit that you can just walk across the hallway with the fire door in the middle. In some jurisdictions in the States this has been the requirement and has been going on, so I hope the Minister will give some consideration to the new buildings as well as the old. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR.

PAULLEY: If I may, Mr. Chairman, it' s interesting to hear my honour able friend and I appreciate his comments . One of the difficulties is that we can take precautions and attempt to take pre cautions to save the building. Solid walls, yes - each individual floor stands O':l its own for the protec tion of the building, but the difficulty arises in many instances as to the saving of lives. Now it is a requirement as I understand it for provision of sprinklers, and to the exact degree I confess that I'm not fully knowledgeable.

Where there is air circulatory facilities there is provision for smoke detectors to set off alarms and the likes of that . Now my honourable friend mentioned that when you get over and above the tenth floor , my commissioner indicates to me about the higilest equipment that we have at the present time of an actual firefighting facility reaches up around the ninth floor - I said tenth so I just could conceivably be a floor out. But in saying this , Mr.

Chairman, I want to assure those that happen to be living on the tenth and eleventh floor up, that all is not lost because of the fact of the highri se there are methodologies by whi ch in the event of a major fire people can be accommodated or at least taken care of through auxiliary and internal firefightin g equipment above the tenth floor. My friend mentioned about fire walls and the likes of this in effect making two buildings in one, sort of.

And of course, that's fine, and it has been consid ered, but it is a fact however that the people have to get from the one area to the other in order to be protected and then once they get where the fire isn't they've got to get down so that it doesn't cros s. So there are difficulties. But I do want to say, Mr. Chairman, the points raised by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia are valid, they are being looked at, and that's why I say there's a constant input of persons of expertise to try and overcome the problems that we're having today with the construction of highrise apartments . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge . MR. AXWO RTHY : Mr. Chairman, I'd like to deal with some of the statements made by the Minister because I think that they really shouldn't be left unanswered in this particular area. I'll probably start off, Mr. Chairman, by reciting an old Yiddish proverb which I think is an old Yiddi sh proverb, that "only a fool learus by his own experienc e, a wise man learns by someone else's ." I think, Mr. Chairman, the Minister seemed to be suggesting that maybe I should spend my time exploiting my knowledge elsewhere rather than applying it here. I'd simply say to him, Mr.

Chairman, that the reason why I per haps have a certain degree of obses sion about it is that in the last eighteen months I've had three se rious fires in my constituency. Three serious fires. I don't think it's some thing that I - when something like that happens I think anybody would treat the matter with some seriousness and try and find out why and what can be done to prevent it. I don't pretend , Mr. Chairman, that what I'm saying is a brand new mint of knowledge, but I am saying it is based upon the experience of others. It has been tested and applied in other places.

And I would simply say that I have no reason for being critical of the Minister 's department or the Fire Commission er's office or anything else. I am simply saying that like any other organization of government , any government for that matter, it's subject to the same problems of developing public policy, the same restraint , the same , sometimes a lack of progress, the same convulsions and convolutions that often develop inside large

1570 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR; AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• organizations, that you just develop a certain lethargy and inability to move perhaps as quickly as one should. The case I'm trying to make is that I believe that the focal point of the Fort Garry fire should be of enough drama and seriousness that we no longer temporize but in fact address ourselves to many of the critical issues in the most accelerated and most concentrated manner possible, that it should be something that becomes not a priority but a ma jor priority not just of the department but of this government and in fact of all governments.

And I simply suggest, Mr. Chairman, that I don't see that sense of urgency. I see the studies and the commissions but I am saying, lookit, it's time that we got serious about this matter . And I think that even some of the statements the Minister made perhaps indicate that the degree of seriousness might be more emphatic. He challenged us when he says for example, that we can't do everything for the protection of the building itself. And I agree. There are a number of areas and inter vention in any fire protection system.

There's the trying to prevent it from breaking out in the first place; there's the question that once the fire does break out, what is the means of egress of people and how much time do they have to get out ? There's the ques tion of firefighting equipment and how effective it is in dealing with the matters; there' s the prevention that goes on beforehand. So there is a number of ways in dealing with it. And I certainly agree, Mr. Chairman, that the human factor is an important one.

So I would suggest that even in the area such as follies and foibles of human beings, we per haps are not doing enough to try and provide for some correction of that, because I think human beings themselves are capable of being educated, of acquiring awarenesses of prob lems. And again I would use the example that as we once again, emphasize, get into big buildings, dense buildings, what requirement do we have in major office buildings and large apartment blocks in the city for monthly fire drills ?

How many buildings actually have a fire warning on each floor, that have a total knowledge of all exits, what to do under cases of fire and that all employees in those buildings know exactly where to go, how to do it and what to do when they get there. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that not many of them do that. I know that the Minister of Public Works suggested they're beginning to do it in some of the Public Works buildings, but there are many major com mercial buildings including large apartment blocks which have never seen a fire drill, where there is no requirement to putting a warning on every floor.

And yet, Mr. Chairman, I think it's quite legitimate that many larger cities which have already gone through the cycle of large highrise office and residential apartments find out that that is one way of coping with the problem, even to the point of, I would suggest, that if you go into many apartment blocks. Mr. Chairman, I just simply did a small tour in my own riding which is sur rounded with buildings to find out how effective are the posting of instructions about what to do in case of fire, and I would suggest that many older buildings and new highrises have no postings at all.

And that in many cases, for example, in multiple occupancy rooms the city of Toronto did a study last year of multiple occupancy place:;; , rooming houses , boarding homes, YWCA's, YMCA's and such like, in every single room, they recommend that a very complete diagram be posted so that the inhabitant of that room who may be transient, knows exactly what to do, where to go when a fire breaks out. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that that occurred in the Fort Garry Court fire, there was not that kind of information available even if they wanted it.

So I'm simply saying that, certainly let's deal with the human factor, let's not ignore it , but let' s deal with it, let' s do something about it. Let's at least ensure that the basic minimum require ment for information and education and some preventative means are available to deal with the human factor. Now Mr. Chairman, I don't think that that's asking too much. It's not something that takes a great deal of study or review or advisory work, it simply means getting down and providing the instructions to do it.

I think if we want to prevent those from happening, we should be preventing them, and that's one way of doing it. So by all means le t's deal with the human factor. Let me point out another factor. If you look at the fatalaties in fires, over 50 percent of them occur not by burning but by smoke inhalation or carbon monoxide poisoning.

March 25, 1976 1571 SUPPL Y - lABOUR (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• And in the Minister's own Advisory Committee report they said, "That could be improved by 40 percent; we could save 40 percent of lives if we had a large spread smoke detector system. " So when he says to me, that it's not all mechanical and technical, I would disagree. I would say there's a great deal that can be done in the mechanical and technical field, and that there is increasing numbers of devices developed in other jurisdictions to show that the efficiency can be improved even beyond that. Now, as I said before, Mr.

Chairman, there is a cost associated with it. But that cost can be reduced if, for example, we were able to change the fire insurance rating, not rates but rating, for the City of Winnipeg. And what I suggested is I don't think that the evaluation undertaken by the underwriters has been done for about 10 years . Certainly the rates change, the amount of money charged, but the evaluation looking at all the devices and protections available determine what rating a city receives.

And if a city improves its fire protection machinery and devices and codes that it gets a better rating, which saves money in the long run. And I simply say I don't think we've had that kind of reassessment or re-evaluation for about 10 years . --(Interjection)--Well if we've had, then we should hear about it. I asked the Minister before, he should have said it. It's a very lengthy procedure but I would like to know, has--(Interjection)--Well I'm raising a ques tion on that today. MR. PAULLEY: You don't know what you're talking about. MR. AXWORTHY: Well I don't think that' s quite true.

I think the Minister con tradicts himself. In his previous speech he said I knew too much, now he's saying, I don't know enough, and I think he should get his scripts straight. The fact of the matter is, let' s hear about it, let' s hear when was the last time the City of Winnipeg was evaluated by the Underwriters Association, what the rating was, and what recommendations they made for improved fire protection. MR. PAULLEY: It' s constant, it's ••• MR. AXWORTHY: I don't think it's constant, Mr. Chairman, that' s not the way it works. MR. PAULLEY: You don't know what you' re talking about. MR.

AXWORTHY: Well, if I don't, then I want to be correc ted by the Minister and I want that information. Because I suggest, I don't think the Minister knows what he's talking about in this case, frankly. And I think that maybe indicates that we are still putting this thing, pardon the expression, on the back burner waiting for the wheels to turn, but slowly, to get the kind of action that we need. And what I'm saying is that it is not simply a matter of tackling the problem in bits and pieces it takes a total comprehensive approach.

I think many of the recom mendations that were contained in the Advisory Report, which I have read, are useful and good ones , some of them which I do disagree with. I think that the whole question of smoke detectors I do disagree with, because I think the evidence compiled in the report says it's going to save lives of 41 perc ent, and if you save 41 percent of the fatalities it' s worth doing, frankly.

And even though he recommends against it, I still think it's worth doing, and to see if we did it how it would change the insurance evaluation for the City of Winnipeg and therefore would we get lower rates, and therefore would it offset the economic costs ? MR. PAULLEY: Those fellows don't know what they 're talking about. MR. AXWORTHY: I'm not saying that. Mr.

Chairman, you see the Minister has a curious kind of paranoia, and that is that he 's always sort of saying that .•• --(Interjection)--Well I'm not saying he's schizophrenic ••• Well maybe he's schizo phrenia!, whatever kind of mental malady • • • I suppose we all have to suffer maladies to be in this place in the first place. But the fact of the matter is some have more acute cases than others . Well what I have to just say, Mr. Chairman, is without sort of whatever peculiar neuro sis the Minister may suffer from or I may suffer, I think what' s important is the issue. That' s what really is critical.

And I think that all we're trying to determine in this case is not that we're trying to suggest that ther e is more knowledge available, he' s the man that' s got the department and the officers, we are simply saying there are major defects in the way that we approach the problem, not according to the

15 72 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - IABOUR (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• old standards or even the conventional standards, but we are saying conditions in the city are changing rapidly, the technology is changing, building conditions are changing, we're getting a lot more highrises , our older buildings are deteriorating and there' s more of them , and that simply means that we have to take a basic re-examination of what we're doing. And that's what we've been asking for, and are still asking for. And if the Minister doesn't want to receive suggestions about what we might look at, then I am sorry about that.

But I'm not going to stop offering them because again the issue is just too damn important. And I think that that is the point that we're trying to make with the Minister, and he can do with them as he wants. It is his responsibility, and as I've said before, I think that the establishment of that advisory commissi on was a useful first step of getting the data.

We want analysis, let's talk about the action, and there are many steps that can be taken immediately, right now, of the kind that we're talking about, even in the educational field, that would go a long way to improving our ability to protect what's going on. And I think that is the point of these remarks. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to argue further with my honourable friend.

I again recognize his expertise, and he's demonstrated that expertise when he refers to the study that has just been made into all aspects of fire protection, prevention and servicing in the Province of Manitoba. A report that was compiled by recognized, and I emphasize, Mr. Chairman, "recognized" experts in the field. And my honourable friend recognizes the fact that he received a copy of the survey, but disagrees. Well, I suppose, in part - I don't know to the degree of that part of my honourable friend's disagreement. I would like to know one of these days but I'm not too much con cerned at the present time .

We set up the commission to investigate; we did have people who, in my opinion, and I hesitate to say this in deference to my learned friend, people that presumably have an expertise in this field. Of course even experts are sub je ct to incomplete pronouncements or incomplete recommendations , and I don't know whether my honourable friend would recognize that or not. It could well be that with my honourable friend's ability of investigation and perusal may have found one or two parts of the report to me that he is at variance with .

But I want to say, quite frankly and quite sincerely and honestly, I would far rather be guided by the experts that we engaged or were associated with in this particular area of human endeavour, than my honourable friend the Member for Fort Rouge. I was particularly intrigued with my honourable friend's statement that he investigated three fires in his constituency in Fort Rouge, because it was his constituency.

I don't think that I need to say to my honourable friend that insofar as fire is concerned my constituency isn't Transcona, my constituency is the whole of the Province of Manitoba, and a deep involvement in all areas in Manitoba inso far as the incident of fire is concerned.

I want to say and I believe that it is part of the recommendation that fire drills and evacuation plans for highrise will be mandatory when the fire code is adopted in the Province of Manitoba, and that's in the process now of being adopted, and that the res ponsibility will be on the owner to provide the plan in co-operation with fire services . That, as I understand it, is part of the report. My honourable friend seemed to indicate some suggestion of a lack of concern on the part of the Minister in total involvement in fire protection and fire loss. I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, whether my honourable friend has had the experience that I have had as a member of a coroner's jury to see a crisp corpse of somebody who died as a result of a fire. I have. It's a terrible thing to see, and it's one of the things that has given me an impetus to go forward and do what I can to see that there is a prevention of the loss of life in fires. My honourable friend mentions urban areas and the loss of life here.

I wonder if my honourable friend has ever gone into the remote areas of Manitoba where people live in under-standard accommodation, where there are no facilities at the present time for firefighting. I wonder if my honourable friend, who is wont to rely on statistics, has compared the statistics of the loss in life as a result of fire in some of the backwoods

March 25, 1976 1573 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• of Manitoba by comparison with those in Winnipeg. I enjoin my honourable friend to travel with me one of these days to go over the broad constituency of Manitoba and to see, Mr. Chairman, what we're endeavouring to do in Manitoba. In co-operation with my honourable colleague the Minister of Northern Affairs, we're trying to bring about an involvement of fire education in our more remote areas of Manitoba that was unheard of but a few scant years ago.

It's fine for my honourable friend to criticize, and I welcome the criticism and many of the points that he raises have some validity and we will take cognizance of some of his statements, but I reject, unless I misinterpreted my friend, that the basis, the recommendations of the committee that was set up to investigate the provision of fire services in the province doesn't contain the answer to everything.

I wonder if my honourable friend is aware of what is going on in the southwest corner of the Province of Manitoba for the first time in the history of this province of ours, where a number of municipalities - I'm not sure of the precise numbers - have banded together to form a unit whereby they co-operate one with each other in fire prevention and fire inspection. It's an ongoing affair in that particular area. One of the recommendations from the con sultant in the area of fire was a further extension of this concept to other areas of Manitoba. And, Mr.

Chairman, that's an ongoing function, and I'm doing it in co operation with my colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs, in involvement to try and get municipalities to work together in co-operation in fire prevention. I think this type of approach that we're doing escapes my honourable friend. It is not glamorous, I con fess, Mr. Chairman, it's not glamorous the ongoing function of the Department of the Fire Commissioner; it doesn't make headlines like fires such as the Fort Garry Court, and the likes of that, a most unfortunate situation of which there is no doubt.

But I do want to say to my honourable friend that it's ongoing and constant 24 hours a day. My friend mentioned about the question of an assessment of rating by the insur ance companies. I understand that it was done around 15, possibly 20 years ago, not quite 20, on an overall approach to the City of Winnipeg, a rating, but there are ratings I am told going on in various sections and segments of Metropolitan Winnipeg almost constantly. My friend mentioned one or two things in the report where the consultant didn't put too much reliance on fire detectors.

Well darn it all I don't either, but the point of the matter is that the less false security that is created and built in, the better for all concerned, that constant inspection as to the causes of fire, a constant educational pro gram for the benefit of inhabitants of any type of dwelling, the better. And this is one of the recommendations, or these are but a few of the reco=endations by the consult ant to the Minister of Labour in his capacity as the head of the Fire Commissioner's Department.

It's true we haven't put out all of the fires as yet, but I do want to say to my honourable friend we're going to do our damndest to prevent fires through educational programs, through constant inspection and inducement of inspections by the people. True, we haven't done everything, but we're going along the right road I would suggest.

157 4 SUPPLY - LABOUR MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. March 25, 1976 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr . Ch airman, I'd just like to ask the Minister a question. He and I have had some discussion outside the House previously and inside the House, and I'm very pleased to see that we now have a Manitoba Code . But there was one concern of mine regardless whether it's the National Code or the Manitoba Code -- (Inter je ction)-- Building - none of them are any good unless you have the proper inspection.

We are well aware the City of Winnipeg has their inspection branch and can follow it, and I'm sure they were quite a help working with you on the code, but as you know in the rural areas we have had Health Departments at times taking care of the plumbing code, we have had very un-'uniform situations as to the application of the inspection of the codes in the rural areas .

And I know of one time I suggested maybe there should be somebody in Dauphin, and somebody handling the north, and somebody in Brandon, that is knowledge able and me chanically educated in such a way for construction, etc., that these codes, now that we have them can make sure that they're being done. The Minister and I have had quite a discussion today on safety and proper construction etc. That's my question - the codes, good we have them, but none of them are any good if they're not administered or followed up properly. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR .

PAULLEY: I'm glad my honourable friend raised that , and here again, I want to say to my honourable friend that we haven't achieved the millennium yet . A few years ago - oh let's see now, maybe two, two and a half years ago, there was amendments to The Municipal Act that transferred the responsibility particularly for rural Manitoba from the Department of Municipal Affairs into the Department of Labour for such purposes of building code inspections, approval of plans and the like of that . Now that is ongoing.

I believe there are provisions for an additional three or four building inspectors within the Department of Labour for the next fiscal year. (Is that about the right number ?) And they will be charged with the responsibility of looking over building plans for municipalities other than the larger municipalities such as Winnipeg and Brand on and the likes of that . As far as the matter of the Health Inspectors in plumbing facilities, that is domiciled at the pre sent time within the Department of Health.

It is quite conceivable that much of that will come under the provisions of health and safety, environmental safety and the likes of that when we have the new legislation and the regulations to the new legislation that I am hopeful of having, pers onally introduced into this session this year insofar as plumbing inspectors and the likes of that .

My honourable friend is quite right when he says that many of the inspectors are not expertise in the particular field of pipefitting, steamfitting, and plumbing, but it is our objective, and I hope we achieve it before too long, to have people who are knowledgeable as a result of their apprenticed training or other training, directl y involved in these fields , and I am sure that at least, Mr. Ch airman, on this level, that my honourable friend and I speak with the same tongue. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 76 (a)--pass; 76(

b) other Expenditures $149, 000- pass . Resolution 76: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty the sum not ex ceeding $855, 500 for labour--pass. Res olution 77 (

a) Employment Standa rds, Salaries. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Mr . Cha irman, a couple of questions to the Minister for clarification of the directions that he 's taking in this area. We have before us at the committee stage

an Act to amend the Employment Standards Act at the present time in this sestion of the Legislature, and we have had before us in the Industrial Relations Committee in recen t days the representatives of the Manitoba Government Employees Ass ociation asking that their Association at least, if not Crown employees generally, be considered for being brought under the provisions of the Em ployment Standards Act; and we have had a Manitoba Court of Appeal ruling that a school teacher isn't entitled to maternity leave under the provisions of the Employment Standards Act, and the Minister has said that he is following that exercise with great interest and with very close atten tion.

That ruling of course overturns an earlier decision handed down in the Manitoba Court of Queen 's Bench under which the presiding justice bequeathed that school teachers

March 25, 1976 1575 SUPPL Y - lABOUR (MR . SHERMAN cont1d) ••••• are entitled to maternity leave as it is defined under the provisions of the Employment Standards Act, and now we have a situation where the entire teaching profession in the province is left in considerable doubt, and I would suggest some consternation with respect to their protection in this area and with respect to the kinds of things they should be perhaps attempting to achieve in their own future collective agree- ments with the divisions .

So in view of the uncertainty existing in these three areas, all relevant and cru cial in the area of Employment Standards, I don't think, Sir, that it would be re sponsible to move so swiftly through consideration of this particular res olution that we didn't pose these questions to the Minister and ask him for some delineation of the direction that he feels he and his government will be taking in this area of Employment Standards statutes and practices during the life of this legislative session. MR. PAUL LEY: The areas again, please ? MR.

SHERMAN: Yes, in response to the Minister's request, the three areas I mentioned were :

(1) The fact that there is

an Act at the committee stage in the Legislature right now calling for certain amendments to the Employment Standards Act;

(2) The fact that the Manitoba Government Employees' Association asked in its brief to the Industrial Relations Committee a few days ago that employees of the Crown be brought under the Employment Standards Act; or they said they would like to see the Employment Standards Act made applicable to employees of the Crown as certain other Acts like the Vacations with Pay Act, etc. are applicable to employees of the Crown; and

(3) I mentioned the Court of Appeal's overturning of the Court of Queen 's Bench decision with respect to entitlement of teachers to maternity leave under the Employment Standards Act provisions. I would appreciate a definition from the Minister of what direction he intends to move in the next few weeks and months in the whole area of Employment Standards be cause of these three uncertainties. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I appreciate the questions directed to me by the Honourable the Member for Fort Garry. I hope I don't run into any difficulty with the judiciary.

Inso far as referring to the Court of Appeal, I had two alternatives: One was to consider the possibility of an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada, because the decision of the Court of Appeal did not find favour with me - and in saying that I don't know if I have immunity in this House, and I hope that the court of learned gentlemen do not put me on the same basis they did a former Cabinet Minister at the federal level. However we did give consideration frankly, to the possibility of taking the matter to the Supreme Court for further asses sment.

Ho wever, realizing that people who are pregnant may be deliver ing of the issue before too long, we felt that by the time the matter got into the Supreme Court and that august body had made an adjudication, some people might be deprived of the benefits, so we had a short conclave in my office and came to the conclusion that it might be more expeditious to make cb..anges to our present Employment Standards Act that would not really be an indication of our disagreement with the learned justices of the Appeal Court - with another methodology of course that Legisla tive Assemblies such as this have , as to how to overcome differen t

interpretations . So I want to say to my hon ourable friend in respect of the application to tt�achers , profes sionals, and other draft legislation is under way at the present time. And may I say, that as far as reference to teachers is concerned I have yet been able to find, or not been able to find in any of our legislation, including the Public Schools Act or the Professional Societies Act of any descri ption where a teacher is really designated as a professiorml. However that is no real concern.

So I can say as far as the application of the Employmen t Standards Act to professionals, teachers or otherwise, it's under active processing at the present time. As far as the bill that is before the Committee now and being approved in the House of course, it only dealt with certain aspects that were drawn to my attention of clarification and that is the reason why that bill was there . So I want to assure my honourable friend, the members of the Assembly, that Employmen t Standards Act Revision

15 76 March 25 , 1976 SUPPL Y - lABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• No. 2 will be forthcoming jlopefully within a week or two to clear up the particular matter concerning maternity leave. As far as the application of the Industrial Relations Act to the Cr own, under the colle ctive agreement entered into between the government and the MGEA, most of the pro visions of the Employment Standards Act are applicable, the base requirements are ap plicable in any case without precisely being designated as coming under the Employment Standards Act.

But there are other employees that on investigation we find that we should give some consideration to , so I can't say to my honourable friend precisely that there will be that particular amendment to the Employment Standards Act, but I trust he will accept my word that that is under review at the present time with the objective, the pos sibility of it being included in the production of Employment Standards Act No. 2. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . PATRICK: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I also have a few questions to the Minister.

I'm glad to hear the news that there will be legislation dealing with the teachers because again perhaps, I don't know how the judges probably just are interpreting the law. -- (Interjection)-- Well he's probably interpreting the law, I have no argument with that - or legislation - and if it isn't clear, I agree with the Minister then he should bring legis lation into the House to make it clear so that certainly the teacher should have maternity leave; that in federal legislation they have, and I cannot see why they shouldn't in here. So I hope the Minister will bring in legislation. Mr.

Chairman, the Employment Standards

section in the Minister's department, in the Department of Labour, as far as I'm concerned is probably the most important area in the whole field of labour legislation. Because it deals with the enforce ment, ad ministration of the whole Act; minimum wages, hours of work, equal pay, working con ditions, overtime, general holidays , vacations with pay, construction industry wages. It deals with the whole area and it deals with, Mr. Ch airman, with the administration of Payment of Wages Act; it deals with enforcem ent of the legislation.

I know that the Minister has done something that I believe was - the action that he has taken I'm sure found favour with most industries in the city and throughout the whole province . I under stand this department or this Employment Standards Division has undertaken to send copies of the minimum wage regulations, payment of wages, to most industries in the city and also to some of the Manpower Centres as well, the minimum wage legislation summariz ing labour laws as such, because I know some of them came to my offi ce and I think it was a very good

part in respect to this area. In carrying out the inspection of industrial plants, what concerns me - and pay rolls - to ensure the compliance with legislation, we find if we turn to one

section of the Minister's report and that is the Employment Standards Division, I am concerned. Either the department, this area, is doing a great job, or we find that there's many infractions in this province. My question is, can the Minister indicate to me what is the staff in this area which administers the Employment Standards . Because we find that if we look in the Minister's report on that legislation, we find that, of wage adjustments alone, that we're looking at under

Section 31( 1) there's 222 employers, the fact that some 1, 10 0 wage earners o,r employees and the fact that the total adjustment is $6 6, 000. So we look under that

section alone of Employment Standards, Mr. Chairman, we find that there were ad justments of perhaps $13 0, 000 to $140, 000 . We look under the minimum wage regulations and we find that there were again 122 emplo yers aff ected, and some 149 employees for a total of some $12 ,0 00 or $15, 000 in adjustments .

If you go through the whole Employment Standards Division and report of wage adjustments, it appears to me that there's a considerable amount of infractions even though the Employment Standards Division is trying to do the job that they're supposed to do under this section, which is enforcing the legislation and carrying out the inspections . If we look under the infractions, for instance, the Construction Industry Wages Act in Greater Winnipeg, we have 10 2 employers aff ected and 400 some employees, for an ad justment of wages of $93, 000 .0 0.

So either we 're not getting the information - I've already complimented the department and the Minister for doing what he did , sending the regulations, sending the summarization of legislation to all employers; that it went out

March 25, 1976 1577 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR . PATRICK cont'd) ••••• this summer because I know it came to most offices , it came to my office, and still we find that there 's just many, many infractions as far as we can see according to the Ministe r's Report on that. If we look under the Payment of Wages Act we get adjustments , we get 780 employees affected in Greater Winnipeg, and another 15 7 for adjustments of about $100, 000.0 0. So all the way down the line , Mr. Speaker, there are Equal Pay Acts , and I'm glad to see this one. Mr.

Chairman, we find that the Equal Pay Ac t there were some 455 employees affected for $482 ,0 00 for wage ad justment, for a total of 2, 800 employers 5, 500 employees for an adjustment of $912, 000, and that's on Page 55 of the Ministe r's report. So the report is telling us a story, Mr. Chairman, and it 's a story that we don't find much pleasure with , Mr . Chairman, because again I say that according to this report certainly the people ia Employment Standards are carrying out their responsibilit ies and doing a good job.

I just wondered if the Minister has sufficient inspectors in that area and perhaps he can indicate to us what more can be done because certainly this report in dicates something to us and it indicates to me that the department's doing a good job. but I'm concerned about the infractions that we have. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: I would say, Mr. Ch airman, tha t's a perfectly legitimate question to raise . I would indicate to my honourable friend that in this particular

section there are 23 employees, including the director or directoress, because here we adhere to equal em ployment opportunities and the director is a female . And so excepting the director and the as sistant director there are 21 inspe ctors. It's really interesting to note, Mr . Chair man, when one takes a look at this particular Page 55, that of the total amount of money involved, of approximately a million dollars or $912 ,0 00, far more than half of that was under the Equal Pay Act where there were two employers affected and 455 employees .

That might be of interest to my honourable friend, and possibly some of the former councillors of the Ci ty of Winni peg, that this involved a collective agreement between CUPE and the Ci ty of Winnipeg in respect of nurses aides in the Health Sci ences Centre, and that is why the number of employers affected are only two and it involved over half of the total amount of money involved. So I would suggest to my honourable friend that really it didn't require too many inspectors .

As a matter of fact I appointed a referee outside of the de partment to investigate this breach of the Equal Pay Act and we successfully got an amend ment to the collective agreement and the input from the employer, I believe, jointly the City of Winni peg and the Health Sci ences Ce ntre . I believe they were the two employers to cough up almost half a million dollars because of their non-adherence to the Equal Pay Act. So what I'm saying has really two effects, that the Equal Pay Act appears to be working out reasonably well because we only had two employers that were found in breach of the Equal Pay Act.

Now, as I say, Mr. Ch airman, we have 21 employees other than the director and the assi stant director, and it is true that there are listed a number of employers affected as to a grand total of 2, 800 in the areas of Employment Standard Minimum Wages, and the likes of that, and employees affected 5, 500 -odd. In many cases, in many cases what is reported in this statistical report is as a result of phone calls to department, they're all compiled . We have found that basically the pres ent staff is not overly burdened, and the in put has lessen ed.

We have increased over the last five years the staff by about 20 per cent. But it does seem to be working out reasonably well. I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend may agree we could triple the staff and then triple the convictions, and the likes of that, or the statistical data that we have, and of course from time to time this suggestion is made to me as Minister, but by and large it's working out fairly well.

I would suggest without comparing figures of last year, the total amount involved, or the employees involved, is to a large degree reflected in the precise case that I've drawn to the attention of my honourable friend. MR . CH AIRMAN: Resolution 77( a)--pass; Resolution 77(

b) other expenditures $75, 400 --pass. Resolution 77 resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $481 , 900 for Labour .

1578 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR . CH AffiMAN cont'

d) Resolution 78, Apprenticeship and Industrial Training (

a) Salaries $211, 70 0.0 0. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker, once again I would appreciate an acco unting from the Minister of his stewardship and his department's stewardship and directions in this area in the immediate past, and what is contemplated in terms of developing apprentice ship and industrial training programs in the futu re. There is a minimal increase in appropriations being sought and being voted.

I could not in ·conscience be critical, I think, of the government or the Minister from a financial point of view considering the escalation of the cost of living for governments as well as for individuals. I think it's probably not unreasonable that the appropriation in this area has gone up, or will go up, in the resolution we're voting, by some $24, 000 over the amount voted last year . That is an additional $24, 000 of hard earned taxpay ers' money to be sure, but I t hink there are other areas in which we can, with much more justification, probably be critical of the Minister and the government.

This I would sug gest is not one of the prime ones in terms of being a target for that kind of criticism. But what is the Apprenticeship and Industrial Training Program and Outreach of the government and of the Minister aimed at doing in terms of the general Manitoba em ployment situation and labour situation in the next 12 months ?

Are the kinds of specific labour shortages which were made vividly obvious to us last year in a number of industries particularly in the construction industry, particularly in the field of skilled craftsmen in the building trades, are those areas of need going to be met by the program that the department undertakes?

Last year at the height of some of the labour diff iculties that we were having in Manitoba, and at the height of some of the work stoppages and slowdowns afflicting the building and construction industry, it was emphasized that part of our problem lay in the fact that there were particular skilled crafts fields in the building industry where there was a very serious and clearly define d shortage of personnel, of skilled labour.

I would assume that in attempting to maintain a reasonably high level of employment and a reason ably low level of unemployment in the province, the Minister would be gearing his effort s to meet those particular requirements and to fill the voids in those particular areas . Is this what the Apprenticeship and Industrial Training Program for 1976-77 is geared to do, and in fact is it equipped to do it ? I would like to put that to the Minister for comment, Mr. Ch airman . MR . CH AffiMAN : The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULL EY: Well, first of all, Mr .

Cha irman, I'm sure my honourable friend and the members of the committee appreciate that when we are dealing with an item of the Apprenticeship and Industrial Training in these Estimates that we can't take these programs in isolation from overall and total programs because of the input in our community colleges, as well in the area of pre-apprentice training and the likes, where there is a considerable f inan cial impact as well, insofar as apprenticeship training is concerned .

I can say to my honourable friend that we feel that by and large the programs that are under way at the present time within the department for apprentice training are reasonably adequate . My friend mentions shortages of skilled workers in the construction industry. I have a differ ent concept of that , in that the information that I received from the trades themselves is that there are suffic ient apprentices undergoing training at the present time.

As a matter of fact I'm continuously being asked by some of the employee organizations to curtail the number of apprentiCes being drawn into the industries because of a fear of creating a surplus of qualified tradesmen, and on a few occasions I've got into some diff iculty because I've rejected that concept; maybe it's because I was once an apprentice myself in my chosen trade . We have had an internal re-organization, or when I say internal I mean in the general sense of involvement internally, in a new setup of advisory boards in apprentice training for the diff erent trades.

Profe ssor John Atwell of the U of M is the Chairman ot the Apprentice Board at the present time and has constant consultation with employers

March 25, 1976 15 79 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• and employees. And I haven't had, quite frankly, Mr. Ch airman, too much criticism as to the operation of this

section of the Labour Department. In the interest of an extension of involvement in apprentice training we now have a staff person at Thompson to look after apprentice training in northern Manitoba on behalf of the departm ent. As a matter of fact it's the former Director of Apprenticeship who is there now at his own request, and he 's fulfilling a needed function there . And I would say, Mr.

Chairman, particularly because of the decision of the department and the Minister to declare mining as a trade and a recognition of an apprentice program in the mining in dustry that would lead to certification of a classification called "A Miner" - something that again, and I'm not trying to brag about it, the first in the whole of the North American Continent I understand, where a miner is a miner and is entitled to a certificate as such as the result of representations made to us . But I would say by and large, Mr .

Chairman, my assessment as of this moment would be that the needs of the industry are being met in our Apprenticeship Program. There's one weak spot, as I visualize it at the present time , and this is related to some degree to the construction industry, and in particular the heavy construction industry, is the involvement of more young men and women in northern Manitoba in proper apprentice programs . I would like to see an extension of the involvement of the younger men and women in northern Manitoba into properly conducted apprenticeship programs .

And here again in co-operation with my colleague the Minister of Northern Affairs, and also the Minister of Colleges and Universities because of the Community College input, we 're en deavouring to expand the opportunity for apprenticeship training of those in northern Manitoba. Having said that I would say that while we have no reason for complacency, this is one of the areas that seems to be functioning reasonably well in the department. MR . CH AffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Assi niboia. MR . PATRICK: Mr .

Chairman, I also have several questions under this section, and I know there 's a very small increase as far as the Es timates are concerned and perhaps the Minister would agree with me that a couple of years ago that there was some talk that is apprenticeship to some extent antiquated , and was it used as a source of cheap labour? There was some feeling that that 's what it was and I disagree, I think it has a very important function to play. But I would like to ask the Minister, has the Minister or the department conducted any kind of a detailed study on the usefulness and effectiveness of the program.

Appren tice ship Program to determine, for example, whether the journeyman papers are eventually obtained by most of the apprentices, the total length of tra.ining received, and whethe r the trade is indeed practiced , and where do the workers or employees eventually locate and find a job or find a trade. I thin:k this is most important for the Minister to undertake this type of a study , and I'm sure the department must have some statistics on this be cause I feel it 's very very important.

I know at the present time and the Minister in dicated, that there is a shortage of trade people in certain trades, technical people, and so how effective is the apprenticeship program? At the present time, I don't know, and I think it would be interesting for the members in the House to know , if the Minister can indicate to us, whether the journeymen, and how many, what percentage eventually receive their papers, Do they then find jobs or practice the trade, and where are they located ? Are they located within the Province of Manitoba or what happens? So, I mean there must be some kind of assessment.

And if there isn't that kind of assessment, I hope that the Minister would ·undertake it because in my opinion I think it's such an important program and has it sort of lost it's effectiveness, Mr . Chairman? So I hope the Minister can give us some indication just exactly what is happening in this area. The other point I wish to raise: Has the departm ent any kind - is there any kind of refresher course or updating or retraining at the present time for many of these people?

If there isn't, I hope that this is something that maybe the government can give some conside ration that there should be some kind of retraining and upgrading on a gradual basis , maybe every so many years. So I hope this is an area that again the Minister can give us some indication.

1580 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. PATRICK cont'

d) Now, Mr. Chairman, another area of trade: I think trade exams and certification should be available, should be available to everyone whether they have taken the formal apprenticeship, but once the person has been in a particular job, say, many years, maybe not on an apprenticeship system, but if he spent so many years on a job surely he should be able to take some kind of a co urse, or exam I should say, to see if he could get certi fication for his trade.

So the other point - we 've had quite an influx of immigration - I wonder if these exams, or certification exams , are available maybe in another language then just the English language.

This again is something that I hope the Minister would indicate to the House • But I'm really concerned because the apprenticeship was at one time a very good thing, which provided the people, the trades people that we required, and I would like the Minister to show us or tell us how effective the program is and let the Minister determine to see if these people, whether the journeymen get their papers, and how many get their papers, or do most apprentices finally get their papers, or only a small percentage? What is the length of training?

Do they only stay when there's a four year program re quired, do they stay in it for a year and then leave ? What is the reason2 I'm sure that kind of information would be most valuable to assess the effectivene ss of this program. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: That's quite a mouthful isn't it? And really one would be an expert statistician and have it in his mind to be able to answer all of the questions. May I first of all refer my honourable friend to Page 65 of the Annual Report which indicates the number of persons - page 65.

I refer my honourable friend to Page 65 of the Arurual Report which indicates the number of apprentices that were examined of being 539 , of which number 468 passed the examinations . Then if he looks at the next two columns he will find non-apprentices examined 392 , of which 183 passed the exam inations . I think the first two figure s indicate that the majority of those that take the exams pass. My friend asked me about others who may have been involved in the industry for a long time who are not formally recognized as apprentices, whether they have a chance for an examination.

I think my friend will find the answer in the non-apprentice columns there of the 392 who took the exam, 183 passed. The number of fail ures of course are aggregated to some degree with the non apprentices but they all have the opportunity of re-examination after a short period of time. Now my honourable friend mentions about the length of period of training. It varies to some degree with the diff erent trades. But I would say that on average it's round about four years is the normal length of training. And where do they go ?

They go into industry generally and find jobs here or if there's a lack of work, of course, they go out into every other area. I'm sorry that 1 haven't got precise statistics to indicate the number of dropouts. My honourable friend asked me whether there are refr esher courses for trades men from time to time. We don't really conduct internally what you might term as a refr esher courses but there is the provision for, reference for refr esher courses in other areas, and then too, as I indicated when we got into this

section that we have the various trade advisory boards provide for additional courses, or the courses are available to people who want to take ref reshers and even the apprentices as well. And in this way, too, of course there can be upgrading of those involved in the trades so that they can eventually become certifie d apprentices. And I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that my honourable friend is aware of the fact that there is a constant pressure these days for compulsory certification of trades. As yet this is still under active consideration. And I would frankly indicate that it's a prob lem.

One of the main areas of problem is the automotive industry where people feel, and have felt for a long period of time they're being rooked by people who call themselves automobile mechanics, who have sort of grown up around an automobile, and we haven't as yet had suff icient fully qualified personnel as a result of apprentice training for exam ination after involvement, suff icient available so that we can introduce a compulsory

March 25, 1976 15 81 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR . PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• certification in some of the trades so that the industries, or the public, can know that anybody that touches their automobile. , • and I'm using that particularly because that is one of the fields that the greatest number of complaints come from . So I would say to my honourable friend this is the way we're operating; we have our trades examinations or advisory courses.

As far as certification in other languages is concerned, due to the inflow of people whether the instruction or examinations are in other languages, the answer to my honourable friend is, no we haven't that as yet to my knowledge . However, I would say in all due respect that a person who is worthy of his calling, who is worthy of his trade, could pretty well pass this examination regardless of the tongue he uses .

I would suggest that a carpenter is a carpenter whether he happens to be an Anglo-Saxon or some other ethnic group, and in the examination we have both an oral and a practical examination, and I'm sure that the examiner would be able to ascertain rather readily the competence of the individual taldng the examination, as to the competence of the individual. MR . DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . PATRICK: I've just got one short question here of the Minister . Can the Minister indicate - I still would like to get the ans wer .

I see on Page 64 that the total apprentices, full-time apprentices, were 2,2 09 and the ones writing exams that were full time apprentices were only 539 . Now I don't know if it's about 2,2 00 year after year, the average maybe for the last three, four, five years, if that's the average and only 500 are taldng their exams, it looks as if there 's a pretty high percentage of the failure rate , or falling by the wayside, because if you take 500 out of 2, 200 it's only about 25 percent that are eventually reaching their goal. If the Minister hasn't got the answer now I hope he can get it for me, Sir. MR .

DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLE Y: I have the answer. I think, Mr. Ch airman, if my honourable friend would apply the four-year course that I mentioned to the end result of 539, and if he takes the - what was it ? - 2, 200 on Page 64, the four year course, divide that by four, the examinations are taken in the final year. So I think that is the answer to my honourable friend, they have an involvement, the 2,2 00 represents first, second, third, fourth year. The 500 represents the last year. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 78 . The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR .

SHE RMAN: One final brief question, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to just get back to a point the Minister made in responding to my remarks a few minutes ago with respect to apprenticeship and industrial training directions . I would like to know if he can tell me whether there is a significant - among the apprenticeship registrations, cancellations and completions in the last year, was there a significant number of persons in those courses who were female, and was there a significant number of persons in those courses who were domiciled in rural parts of the province?

The reason I asked that question is the Minister touched on it briefly in responding to my initial question, and if he could elaborate on it just briefly to let us know whether there are gains and improvements being made in these areas of opening up training of this kind to both sexes, and to both rural as well as urban citizens, I think it would be helpful. MR . PAULLEY: My only answer to my honourable friend is that we 're attempt ing to attract the female sex into the industrial world more and more .

We haven't been too successful as yet but one of the functions of the Equal Em ployment Opportunities Co mmittee of Cabinet is to make an assessment as to the possibility and probability of increasing the involvement of the fair sex in apprentice training. I do think that we have one or two, and it's a very very insignificant number I appreciate involved at the present time in a regular apprentice training program, particularly when we relate apprentice training to the trades.

As far as rural Manitoba is concerned, we haven't met with too much success of an involvement of youngpeople in apprenticeship programs in rural Manitoba because of the lack really of trainers in the field, that there is a dearth I must say of qualified, competent people who can train apprentices. I don't mean to say that there aren't qual ified people, but you have to have a certain amount of expertise in order to train the younger people •

1582 March 25 , 19 76 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'

d) Representations are made to me from time to time from some of the rural high schools where they have training programs of a more or less broad approach; represen tations are made to me from time to time to allow credits toward apprenticeship for these training programs and I believe it was last year or early, yes I believe it was last year that as the result of an investigation of this aspect of apprentice training there was an agreement entered into, or an understanding, maybe that is a better way of putting it, an understanding that because of so many months involvement in industrial training in our high schools there would be so much credit toward apprenticeship similar to pretraining credits at the community colleges .

I can't really elaborate further to my honourable friend. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I was just listening intently to the Minister's re marks about apprenticeship training and the quantity coming from rural Manitoba. That wouldn't apply, I think, Mr. Chairman, throughout the whole of the list. I'm thinking particularly of machinists, where I believe about 10 percent of those that are currently onstream are coming from the Brandon area, and then there's a fairly large percentage coming from the mining area, I believe.

Don't Flin Flon and Thompson and Lynn Lake all have their machinists training programs, so that while there are I presume many trades where they're essentially concentrated in the urban area of Winnipeg, that in other areas there might • • ; One other question, and this may be a little too detailed, but I would be in terested in knowing, in how many of these apprentice training courses are we net importers or exporters of qualified tradesmen, for instance in machinists.

Do we produce roughly our needs in respect to that trade, or are we constantly having to import machinists, qualified machinists from out of province to fill the vacancies that are here ? Perhaps the department has statistics that would apply to the other ca tegories of apprentice training that would be interesting for the Ho use to have in respect to the overall picture. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, I'm sorry I haven't got the answers for my honourable friend precisely and statistically. I will do my utmost to obtain them.

He 's perfectly correct that insofar as the machinist trade is concerned there is quite an input in the Brandon area, also in the mining areas, the Inco and Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, and some of the larger mining companies have their own apprenticeship pro grams, particularly for machinists, as indeed of course have the railroads, which are somewhat separate from us although we have a very close area of co-operation. But I will try and find some statistics for my honourable friend. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: Resolution 78( a)--pass; 78( b)--pass.

Resolution 78 Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $255, 900 for Labour- pass. The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr . Chairman, I would assume that there are going to be some submissions on the other categories of the department so I would suggest this is an ap propriate time for the committee to rise . MR . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker . Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, has instructed me to report same and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D.

JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Rose, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The hour of adjournment having arrived the House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 10: 00 a.m. tomorrow morning. (Friday)

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-52
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 52.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e29fa459e1618140d568676d73ca34dd17a87f06

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