VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENEPAL ASSEHBLY OF NEWFOUNDLli .. ND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRA.."''SCRIPT HOUSE OF JISSE11BLY FOR THE PF.RIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. nONDAY, APRIL 16, 1984 NO. 25

April 16, 1984, Tape 1011, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER(RUSSELL) : Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the President Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make concerning the current situation with respect to the power outage$on the Avalon area of the Province.

I apologize first of all to the Opposition, that I have not had the opportunity of being able to prepare a detailed,written statement to give them beforehand, because it was only just before the House opened that I received a briefing, as we have been receiving them all weekend, from officials of Hydro, the Emergency Measures OrganizatioiT and Newfoundland Light and Power. I wanted to be sure that what I was going to say to the House represented current information. As everybody knows, late on Friday, April 13, electrical services were interrupted for the majority of the residents on the Avalon Peninsula.

For most of the communities on the Northern half - MR. TULK: MR. MARSHALL: You are going to tell us about it! Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is not interested in hearing this. MR. TULK: Carry on. No problem. MR. MARSHALL: - of the Peninsula had power outages. The difficulties resulted from a massive build-up of ice on the electrical transmission lines and towers of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, and the distribution lines and structures of Newfoundland Light and 2704

April 16, 1984, Tape 1011, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: Power Company, which eventually caused these facilities to collapse. Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro normally supplies the Avalon Peninsula with electrical ene .rgy generated at Bay d' Espoir and Holyrood. This energy is transmitted via a 230KV grid to key points of delivery, where Newfoundland Light and Power receives service and distributes the energy to residents and businesses in the many communities on the Avalon Peninsula.

While Newfoundland and Laprado;r Hydro is a major supplier to Newfoundland Light and Power Company, that organization, that is Newfoundland Light and Power, also has generating plants located at a number of communities along the Southern Shore, and they have a small, oil -fired steam plant on the southside of St. John 's. As everyone knows, what occurred the weekend occurred initially on Hydro lines East of Chapel Arm, 27 05

April 16, 1984 Tape, 1012 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: which collapsed on Friday night and early on Saturday morning due to extreme icing. The two lines,which leave Chapel Arm and go to Holyrood and to Donovans both collapsed 1as well as the two other lines, one of which links Holyrood with Oxen Pond and the other which links Oxen Pond to Donovans. The effect of these outages was to present the Northeastern portien of the Avalon Peninsula from receiving any power from Bay .. d'Espoir and to prevent the Holyrood thermal station from delivinq energy on Hydro's network except to Donovans.

In fact,so little load was left on Hydro's grid that the Holyrood thermal unit tripped off the system due to lack of load. Some areas of St. John's continue to receive service from Newfoundland Light and Power Company's hydro plants along the Southern Shore, and from that company's steam plant on the Southside. Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and Newfoundland Light and Power Company co-ordinated thai~ actions during Friday night and since that time have striven to restore services as quickly as possible.

Saturday morning a meeting had been convened with the Premier and myself between the officials of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and Newfoundland Light and Power Company and the Director of Emergency Measures of the Province. It was decided, after discussion and review of the situation,that the Director of the Emergency Measures Organization be put in cqar3eL _o! _ ... co-ordination so that dissemination of the late .3t information would be accurate.

And I think this has worked splendidly and I think the Director of E.M.O.,as well as officials of the Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro are ce~ainly to be commended for the effective way in which they dealt with this emerge~cy which arose through forces of nature beyond anybody's =ntroL ·but which they strove to bring pn a regular basis as quickly as possible. 2706

April 16, 1984 Tape 1012 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now at the present time, Mr . Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro continues to supply ~on Hydro 's one remaining 230KV line from - .. - - - -- ; Holyrood and through the use of its gas tu .rbine at Donovans • In addition, Light and Power is reviewing energy directly - - ---- -- - from Hydro's Holyrood station via the 69KV line at Holyrood . - ~ J Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has seen, Mr.

Speaker, eight ee n of its large steel towers collapse with the weight of the ice along with approximately forty -three large wooden transmission structures , but no significant damage - . has occurred to it s ~tations or to its Holyrood generating plant . Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited has seen approximately 1,000 of its poles down over the weekend. so , you can see,the damage is considerable . 2707

April 16,1984 Tape No. 1013 ah-1 MR.MARSHALL: Of course these are just ballpark figures that both corporations can give at the present time because it requires a fuller assessment, but at the present time Hydro esti...ates that the damage to its grid is.between $2.5 and $3 million and Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited estimates that the damage to its system is at least $1.5 million. So we are talking about very substantial damages to the tune of $4 to $4.5 million on both systems combined.

Hydro is facing its greater priority at the present time on the creation of a link between Holyrood and Oxen Pond so that the Oxen Pond substation can be directly connected through to the Holyrood termal plant. Hydro's heavy line crews from Bishop Falls, from Whitbourne and from Churchill Falls 1 along with a private contractor,have been mobilized for this effort. Nevertheless 1 it will not be possible to complete this link 1which involves essentially rebuilding all of the structures between the Ridge Road and Oxen Pond,prior to Sunday April 22nd.

But I have to emphasize that,through the auspices of the Newfoundland Light and Power and other lines that they have,they will be able to supply this area with power,but not full power,because the lines that they have cannot contain the capacity that is necessary in order to supply the full requirements of power in that area. I will get,in: a moment 1in my statement to the matter of rationing of power. Until April 22_therefore, it will be impossible for Hydro to provide the Light and Power Company with full service. But 1as I have indicated Newfoundland Light and Power 2708

...... -: --.1 ··- ~ J, •• • ... ~--=·.~.i~~·~ .. i~----·- Apirl 6,1984 Tape No. 1013 ah-2 MR .MARSHALL : through its lines can provide,certainly ,partial service. Even at that time no link will have been established between the ~portion of Hydro's grid in Chapel Arm . Until that linkage is established 1the Eastern area will remain isolated from Bay d'Espoir and the rest of the Island 's system. Hydro had diverted two line crews of private contractor from the Western portion of the Province where work was in progress on the transmission line to Cat Arm so that 270 9

April 16, 1984 Tape No. lOH MJ - 1 MR. MARSHALL: top priority can be placed on linking the Eastern portion of our grid with Chapel Arm and the rest of the Island. Nevertheless 1 it is not expected that this linkage can be achieved prior to April 30, At that time,Hydro will have an operational grid but without the benefit of the security which comes from twin lines between Sunnyside, Chapel Arm, Holyrood and Donovans. Fullv complete repairs will take several months. !1X. Speaker, the Newfoundland Light and Power has also given a full briefing of the situation, some of t..rhich is similar to 111hat I have said.

Seventy- five crews were active by daybreak on Sunday 1 and major progress 1 they say 1is exp~~!~d today. There were ten to fifteen crews ' of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro ·operating. There is a difference in the size of the crews,but in sum total the full compliment of the staffs of both Hydro and Light and Power were employed to deal with this emergency. As ~ _ha~e-~ndica:te_d ~-n the s~aterrtent1 Hydro indicates that it is not possible to nrovide for full service through the Oxen Pond substation,; Power available - --- - - - -- - to the St.

John's reqion From t~e Holyrood plant is limited to, the capacity of t'..ro 266KV lines which were repaired and put -· . back into service on Sunday. This,plus the . . .... _ __. ...... Nel'ffoundland Light and Power's steam system plant and diesel plant on the South Side and hyCI.r" plants on the Southern Shore,it is important to note,. are not sufficient to enable service to be provided over the peak period to all locations in St. John's where there are no local line problems. A system of rationing from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. is therefore in effect and will continue for several days further.

About 75 per cent of the customers in the St. John's region, all of whom,of course 1are serviced by Newfoundland Light and Power, will have service restored by 2710

... -- -·· ·--'----' April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1014 MJ ~ 2 MR. MARSHALL: the end of the day,but :service to these will be subject to rationing. During this time all customers are being asked to use only essential power so that service can be supplied to as manv customers as possible. An area narticularlv' --- - - - -- - - hard hit, Mr. Speaker, has been Be11 Island 1where about 250 poles are down so there is no means of distributing the power which is available there.

Service to a small number of residents was restored today and work is continuing on replacing thirty-five poles to enable service to be supplied to the hospital. Service will be available in 'most areas within a week. In Conception Bay North 1 the basic transmission system was restored on Sunday and it is expected that much progress will be made today on the distribution system.

Some areas will not have service . restored :for a week,but I am informed that,with respect to the Northern part of the Avalon Peninsula, there is a li:nkage .•tha:t will be made from the one remainincr line coming in from Bay d'Espoir into the Chapel Arm area. Rut 2711

. . ., -... _ :.~:-·_-_ ... -'!:.::._·;' .., • ' '• -:'.!§z'' .. -~r;;: .. April 16, 19.84 Tape No. 1015 SD - l MR. MARSHALL: as applies, of course, to all areas on the Avalon Peninsula, provided the situation does not deteriorate and we get further icing conditions, and things proceed as normal, with normal weather, we should not have an undue amount of further damage and that we can get by with rationing. But rationing is important, Mr. Speaker, in all areas, I think - I have been instructed that we have to be very careful about our utilizati ·on of power. For instance, in the St.

John •s area 1 just to try to put it in capsule from, with _ the line we have in service, that is 1 Hydro has in service through the Holyrood generating system 1 we can supply some 158 megawatts of power. Newfoundland Light and Power have about 77 megawatts of their own generation from other sources on the Southern Shor~, which I referred to, to serve St. John's. So we have a totar there. of 235 me.gawatts of power available. The city peak, this is the peak demand for power, which, of course is dependent all upon weather and the time of day, is 25Q megawatts-. So,as you can see, the hon.

House can see and I hope everybody in the St. John •·s area will be able to see that We are very tight with respect to meeting those demands despite the gargantuan efforts that have been made by the staff of Hydro and Newfoundland Light and Power. Therefore, I cannot emphasize too clearly and too forcefully 1 Mr. Speaker, the need for careful use of power by citizens. That not only applies to the St. John•s area 1but it applies to the Northern Conception Bay area as well·.

With the more purdent use of power in the Northern Conception Bay area ,providing that nothing else deteriorates 1 there will be le-ss rationing than appeared on the weekend. There will still be the need for rationing, so in all areas I would i'mplore the citizens -of the Avalon area to be very prudent in the.ir use of power and not to employ more power for their domestic purposes than is absolutely necessary. so, Mr. Speaker, that is the 2712

April 16, 1984 Tape No . 1015 so - 2 MR . MARSHALL: general run down of the situation. We have been in total dialogue with the people concerned ever since this problem occurred. It was thought better, and it will still cont~nue to be the case for a while yet 1 that all announcements will be made 2713

. ...... __ ___ ... _ ... April 16, 1984 Tape 1016 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: through the director of Emergency Measures so that there can be one concerted source of information and there will be less problems with any inconsistencies that will occur. Mr.

Speaker, before I conclude and sit down, I want to express - and r know I speak not only on behalf of government but all members of this House and, for that matter, all members of the general public - our deep appreciation to the employees of Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, who have worked to the degree that they ~ave all weekend long with very little rest in extremely difficult circumstances.

And, as I said before, what they had to face was a gargantuan task· The problems associated with the loss of power would have been infinitely greater but for the dedication and the skill, and the drive and the determination of these employees of Newfoundland Light and Power, particu~ larly but not exclusively those who have worked in the repair areas, as well as the management and staff of both companies concerned.

As I said, we are used in Newfoundland to meeting emergencies that are thrust on us by acts of nature and it was only through the really good efforts of these people that the emergency - and I do not really like to style it an emergency becauseJif you do that, you have other connotations that arise - the extreme hardships that were visited on us as a result of this, which would have been made much harder, much more difficult, but for the efforts of those individuals concerned. So, Mr.

Speaker, in concluding this statement, I would like to - I think I would be remiss if I did not - on behalf of this House of Assembly, and I am quite sure the Opposition will join in this, and I 2714

April 16, 1984 Tape 1016 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: am quite sure that this reflects the wishes of all of the pe~ple of this Province, or the sentiments of them all, particularly those on the Avalon Peninsula - extend a real sincere thank you, a vote of thanks from th is Assembly,on behalf of the people of the Province of Ne\olfoundl.and 1 to the \vorke rs . involved who worked so diligently in such difficult and arduous circumstances over the weekend to prevent this emergency from being even worse than it could otherwise have been. SOME BON • MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! t-tr • Speaker. 2715

April 16, 1984, Tape 1017, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is pretty hard to criticize that kind of statement. I might note, though, just as a matter of interest, that I believe it is the first tjme I heard the han. gentleman make a statement in recent days in this House when he did not blame something on Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to deal with the technical information that the han. gentleman gave the House,·but I would say this, that most of it we have heard already, thanks to the media in this Province.

The members of the communication media, the electronic media~ especially radio station VOCM, Mr. Speaker - MR. MORGAN: Let us hear it for the Bobsy Twins, as you would call them. MR. NEARY: No, not the Bobsy Twins. No, I am talking about that. MR. WARREN: You shut up now, 'Morgan'. MR. NEARY: Do not worry about it. Mr. Speaker, they performed a great community service, in my opinion, in passing on information, up-dating information and passing it on to the people via their car radios, and via their transistors and portable radios. MR. MORGAN: The private networks did, yes, VOCM and Q. MR. NEARY: All the media.

I am not trying to single out VOCM, but all the media, CQ and the other media did a magnificent job. And I also, Mr. Speaker, when we are passing along thanks to the people who performed services over and beyond the ordinary call of duty, want to pay 2716

.. =.- ~ ...... ~·~ ':·?~.':-- :+~.tii!- -· ·- ....... ..:...:..~. _:. .. ...:._ "--- .. ···---·-----·--- ~ .,_,_,_. ________ ·.;.~~~ .. April 16, 1984, Tape 1017, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: tribute to the members of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary who were on the job night and day keeping people away from poles that were cracked off and lines that were down across the roads, and looking after the safety of our people. And also the Fire _Department, Mr. Speaker, and the people who man the ambulances.

But above all, I do want to join with the hon . gentleman, by the way, in saying that I am completely amazed at the speed and the efficiency and the swiftness with which the Newfoundland Light and Power employees and the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro employees were on the job. And, Mr. Speaker, just to show you bow quickly they moved, the poles up our way went down on Friday night and by Saturday evening they had poles back in place again, believe it or not! MR . MORGAN: That was because you were living there. MR. NEARY: No, it was not because I am living there. 2717

'"'· April 16, 1984 Tape 10.18 E.C ·..,. 1 MR. NEARY: I will be one of the last to get t.he power, by the way, where I live, because, Mr. Speaker, it was just like landing on the beaches of Normandy! The whole area is devastated down Portugal Cove Road and down towards the airport and, unfortunately, I am in one of the areas where I a~sume it will take a week or so to restore electricity. But, Mr. Speaker, we do not mind - well, it is very inconvenient - but we do not mind at times like this having to bring water in buckets.

I myself have an artesian well so I have no water, but I will say this, that the fire departments have been most co­ operative. They have allowed me and other people to go in and fill up their water buckets and bring our kerosene oil. And, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman was almost afraid to call it an emergency, but it certainly was a disaster and it still is a disaster. Mr. Speaker, above all, I have to say this about the Newfoundland people, it is in adversity when you see Newfoundland people get together and become united, they become almost one, community­ minded, neighbours helping neighbours, Mr. Speaker.

And I do not think that I could find words to describe how people have helped sick people in their homes, elderly people, senior citizens, people who live in apartments ano people who do not have water and this sort of thing. And they want to share~ This is a time, Mr. Speaker, when people want to share with their neighbours, and I think that is absolutely magnificent! I know we are not used to it now, those of us who were brought up with the outdoor privy and so forth have gotten away from it: we are almost spoiled, we are too 2718

April 16, 1984 Tape 1018 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: used now to the comforts of horne. But we will survive, Mr. Speaker . We will survive. And I know that the Light and Power crews and the Hydro crews will work diligently and they will strive to restore electricity at as early a date as possible to all those who are without power at the present time. There is not much else I can say about it, Mr. Speaker, at the moment, except that I have the assurance of the hon. gentleman that every­ thing will be done.

I know the rationing of power is going to be a problem, because everybody wants to put on all their lights and all their fridges and all their televisions and so forth; it is very difficult to control it. But, I would like to join with the hon. gentleman in asking people to pay strict attention to the rationing. The current situation is very bad indeed. It is the worst ~torrn we have had, by the way, since 1957. AN HON. MEMBER: 1958. MR. NEARY: 1958.

And at that time, by the way, I was living on Bell Island, and I think the storm hit Bell Island worse then than it did any other part of the Avalon Peninsula and my heart goes out to my fellow­ Bell Islanders, but I know every effort will be made to get power back to the hospital over there and to the fire department and to the other essential services. So, Mr. Speaker, there is not much else I can say except this, that on Saturday I went out, I spent two or three hours lined up trying to get a heater and a bit of fuel and a couple of lamps, and I did notice this - 2719

------ ----~ ~ - --~"""'--'~ April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1019 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: but I have to also say that it was not general - but I did notice that in a matter of a few hours the price of kerosene oil doubled. There are a few unscruplous people around, not too many; I have to say this 1 they are more of the exception rather than the rule, I am happy to say that. But, Mr. Speaker ·, you do find that. I hope that the hon. gentleman will adivse his people to ke .ep an eye on that sort of thing because that we can do without.

But again, by the way, while we are expressing our appreciation, I think that appreciation is due the people who do supply the fuel, the kerosene oil and gas and all the heaters and the lamps and the candles and the batteries ·: They did open up their stores on Saturday morning 1even though it looked like the Second World War when you had to line up for your sugar rations. r spent two and a half hours in the rain and the cold down by one of the stores trying to get a lamp 1 but we did get in and the owner did supply us all with lamps and so forth. So r think they deserve a little bit of credit too, Mr. Speaker.

You know, we are living in an age now where machines are running our lives: The cash re .gisters go out, the computers go out at the airport, the computers go out at the bank, Mr. Spe .aker, and we are all walking around like zombies; you cannot find out when your planes are leaving, how much money you have in the bank ,and you cannot buy anything because you cannot wor-k the cash: register. But these business · people did manage to control the situation even though they had to wr·i:te out their sales and their receipts . by hand. MR. WARREN: Then jack it up. MR.

NEARY: No, only a few j a eked up the pri ·ce of fuel, a few unscruplous ones. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, . I just want again to join with the hon. gentleman in expressing 2720

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1019 SD -2 MR. NEARY: our appreciation to the crews, the ones who are up in the front line,in the line of battle, risking their lives, hanging onto the poles. I saw them down our way Saturday night up in their little buckets about thirty-five or forty or fifty feet above ground, Mr. Speaker, in freezing rain and they are the ones, I"think, that we have to- MR. MORGAN: You are taking too long. MR. NEARY: I am allowed half the time of the hOn. gentleman.

Wliat the OOn. gentleman ShOUld dO 1 if he does not want to listen ,let n.i:m go out and try to get the commercial salmon fishery straightened out, Mr. Speaker, and tell us about the meeting he had on the weekend. Well, Mr. Speaker, there is not much e.l.se I can 2721

_t -- -..... --·-- April 16, 1984 Tape 1020 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: say about this except the human element,! think 1~s what we have to look at more than anything else 1 and to commend all and sundry, commend everybody, especially the ones that I mentioned for doing such an outstanding job under very difficult circumstances. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Before we proceed 1I would like to welcome to the galleries today thi~ty-five students from the Whitbourne Central High School in the district of Bellevue, with their teacher, Mr. Roy Gossa. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Are there any other Minister Statements? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to announce the approval of a federal/provincial grant of $24,000 to support an industry-government committee that will assist in the organization of the Tourism Industry Association of Newfoundland and Labrador, better known as TIANLAB. This grant will 'be cost-shared on a 90/10 federal)provinc .Lil basis.

TIANLAB is an association of private businesses, municipal groups and individuals who are determined to further the development of tourism as an industry. An organization such as TIANLAB .is critical if tourism is to realize its full potential which is forecast to be one of the leading industries internationally in the 1990s. The department envisages TIANLAB to be an avenue through which crucial industry issues are dealt with - issues such as training of hospitality personnel, increased and improved attractions, improved accommodation and restaurant facilities and especially the issue of attitude and awareness.

TIANLAE 2722

April 16, 1984 Tape 1020 PK - 2 MR. WINDSOR: will become the single group through which industry voices its concerns and recommendations to government and vice versa - government makes known its policies and intentions to the industry. To date , approximately $96 ,000 h~J been spent under the tourism development subsidary agree~ent on organizing regional associations and on building industry organization expertise; the agreement expired this year and some of the remaining funds were committed to this grant.

The department will continue to support this organization!s effort and ·believes that it can become a viable body once it is nursed through the growing pains every organization must experience. The grant will be administered by a committee of three industry representatives and one representative each from the federal and provincial governments. The committee will oversee the funding of projects that will result in increased membership of TIANLAB rand those that address ~ the crucial industry issues mentioned. This grant is the government's latest demonstration of its support of the tourism industry and TIANLAB.

In January 1 1983 the department seconded Mr. Ed Vincent, our Industry Development Manager, to act as Executive Director of the Association for two years; this year we have pledged the provision of essential support services and we continue to communicate with TIANLAB on a regular basis. We are certain that TIANLAB ~ill become the representative of the tourism industry, and a driving force behind its development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2723

- ··- ·--'-- -- .,.. ___ ._ ·"--~ __ ..... __ :_ __ ::··_...._. ...._ _ _:_......;.= -= ~'-- · April 16,1984 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Bellevue. MR.CALLAN: Tape No. 1021 The hon. member for Mr. Speaker, those of us on this side of the legislature join with the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) in welcoming any funding from Ottawa. We hear that 90 per cent ah-1 of the funding is from Ottawa. We welcome any funding from any source that will create jobs for our people in this Province. I did not get a copy of the minister's statement.

I did get a copy of the Premier's speech for Moncton today,but I did not get a copy of the statement and 1even if I did, Mr. Speaker, a·ll I say it that on this side of the House we are very happy to note that 90 per cent of the money is coming from Ottawa and if it creates jobs 1 the more the merrier. MR.SPEAKER: It is a pleasure for me to welcome to the gallery as well a former member of this legislature for the district of Grand Falls, Mr. Aubrey Senior. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and it concerns, perhaps, what,if not yet 1may certainly turn out to be another disaster in Newfoundland. It concerns the Fogo ferry system. The minister is aware that service to Fogo Island has been disrupted for ten days and he is also aware that this morning the town councils on Fogo Island have declared 2724

•.. ,.,_lit]':'~-;~~ .. ~ t.~....... ---··-- April 16,1984 Tape No . 1021 ah-2 MR.TULK: a state of emergency. He is also aware, I guess, that the federal icebreakers are stuck. I want to ask the minister, in view of all those circumstances 1 just what his department is doing to see that a service is put back into place for Fogo Island? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Min~ster of Transportation. MR.DAWE: Mr. Speaker, indeed I am aware of all the circumstances that the member for Fogo (Mr .Tulk)outlined.

I. wouid also like to make the House aware, of course , that the department is involved in subsidizing air freight and subsidizing personal travel through an aircraft based 1 in Gander to Fogo, ~ve been doing so for some time and wil l continue to do so until the ice situation is alleviated. The member must also be aware that the responsibility for icebreaking rests with a federal agency. 2725

- - ,_ ..... p_,_• .... . --- -·- --- April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1022 MJ - 1 MR. DAWE: As I understand it 1-the icebreakers are trying to work their way in' rt.hat direction and free some vessels in some situations along the way. As well, one of the icebreakers is itself stuck and cannot ~ave in the ice. Now if the federal government with all its resources cannot move the ice with the icebreakers,I am a little unsure of just what I can do or the department can do to alleviate that particular s±tuation 1but we will continue to provide the air service until such time as the ferryboat can resume its regula~ schedule.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: ~1. Speaker, that is a very cute answer. We are aware that the federal government is responsible for the icebreakers in this Province and we are aware that - they are responsible for keeping a channel opened. But the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe)in this Province, I would remind him that the name of his department is Transportation and that ne is responsible for a ferry service.

He is also aware that there is a boat presently on Fogo Island itself that is owned by Patrick •1iller that can possibly open a Channel to Farewell. I understand that the ~Q~ that it is going to cost him is perhaps about -- -- - - --- --- - - -- -- -- ------- $2,000 a day. I ask him, in view of the fact that he is responsible _ fo ::_~ ~-a~~~?.::tatio _r: t2: F~~o Island., ho:_s he _consi~ ~red .=_ I know· his department is aware of it - or N'ill he consider employing that ice-strengthened vessel to act as an icebreaker for Fogo Island? -- . -- !!P.. r~ORGAN: C'-et a federal icebreaker. An absolute sharre! MR.

TULK: Be quiet. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Transportation. 2726

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1022 MJ - 2 MR . DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the member said that he is fully aware 'that the responsibility for icebreaking is that of the federal government. Some time at the end of last 1r1eek there were discussions that came forth from Pogo Island as it relates to the use of an existing vessel out there, it is not an icebreaker but it is an ice reinforced vessel, to be used to open up a channel .

Now whether or not that particula .r vessel is suitable for that purpose is 1again 1the responsibility ·for an assessment by the federal Oepart .ment of Transport and the people who are involved in icebreaking. As well, if the ability of the present icebreaking vessels that are employed by the federal government, or owned by the federal government, are not adequate to do the service then perhaps we should again be 272 7

. ___ ... ... _ .• ~---· April 16, 1984, Tape 1023, Page 1 -- apb MR. DAWE: concentrating some of our efforts in.making sure that adequate ice breaking capabilities are restored to the people of this Province. But if, in fact, that vessel is capable of doing the job that the · existing iceb~eakers cannot do, then, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious as well, from.the member's own words, that the responsibility to see that that vessel is employed or is adequate to do the service is the responsibility of the federal government. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): for Fogo. MR.

TULK: minister, he is the minister - The han. the member As I pointed out to the MR. MORGAN: It is a federal responsibility. MR. TULK: What is'Bonavista Slim' doing now? Is he on the go again? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: MR. TULK: 'Bonavista Slim'to be quiet? Oh, oh! Order, please! Let the feds provide an icebreaker. Mr. Speaker, can you ask MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Transportation (.Mr.

Dawe) 1 then, if the federal people are responsible for ice breaking- which is true, although he is responsible for transportation, so there is a dual responsibility- let me ask him if he has been in contact with the federal minister to encourage him to indeed employ the services of Patrick Miller's boat to break that route? Let me just ask him that simple question: Has he done that as the minister responsible for transportation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation. 2728

,.'~.....:.n__:- - April 16, 1984 ,, Tape 1023 ·, Page 2 -- apb MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, departmental officials have been in contact with the Coast Guard and with the people involved in ice breaking. I personally have not been in contact with the federal m~nister, but I know that staff have been in touch with officd .. aJ,s and s'l:aff in the. federal ministry responsible to ask them sepcifically, I gue .ss, or to indicate to them that that suggestion was put forward as it relates to the capabilities -of the boat that is now in Fogo to perhaps do that. Where it has ·gone from there I do not know.

They have been aw~e of the boat being there and the .suggestion from the residents · of Fogo, and Mr. Miller himself, that that boat has certain capabilities. But I understand they are intending· to try to do the job with the vessels they have at their disposal presently, and that they are, as I indicated; working their way there. One of the vesselS left St •• Tohn' s this morning, I believe, and others are t~ing to break free themselves from ice situations. I might point out as well, Mr •. Speaker, that 2729 . : :~

-- ~-~ -----~---- --- ~--- -- --- ·--- -- -·· ··· ·~ ·--- ----- - April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1024 SD - 1 MR. DAWE: there are other communities on islands that are in exactly the same situation and my ministry is providing a subsidized air service to the islands - Long Island, Little Bay Islands, Change Islands and ·anywhere else, Mr. Speaker, where the ferryboats are interrupted for·extended periods of time through ice blockages.

And we have in place an air subsidy programme that s·ervices the people for essential commodities and also to give people who have to get back forth a subsidized form of travel back and forth to the is ·lands. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell)_: for Fogo. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the minister about that air service that he is providing through Gander Aviation. As the minister is aware there are a number of cases where different sorts of foodstuffs have run out on Foqo Island.

I understand for the weather forecasting people :there is another low approaching and we may indeed have that air service stopped again. But let me ask him a question about his· subsidization of the air service to Fogo Island, that is for freight. It is my understanding that the regular cost is $25 per 100 weight for food to that Island. That is the regular cost.by air service. I· understand that the minister is subsidizing it perhaps to the tune of seven dollars per 100 weight.

That leaves e.:i::gh.teen cents on every tin of milk and every pound of butter and so on,that reside~t~ of Fogo Island are going to have to pay i•f indeed food is transported by Gander Aviation. That is an increase that . they are going to have to pay. No~ I understand that last year the minister through the water bombers,. put a service into effect for Bell Is ·land whi.ch was admi ·rable ,. that was the thing to be 2730

.;,:_~.:. ............. . - •.•.••. .;!, __ _ April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1024 so - 2 l1R. TULK: done. Would he, in view of the fact that those water bombers cannot land on Fogo Island, consider removing that cost to the people of Fogo Island by increasing the subsidy for Gander Aviation to 100 per cent of the cost of .transporting food through Gander Aviation? Would he consider that? MR . MORGAN: Let the feds get an icebreaker, boy. l1R . TULK: Be quiet : MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please: The hen. Minister of Transportation. t-1R . DAVIE: Mr.

Speaker, we have recognized that there is a problem with getting foodstuffs, particularly essential food commodities, to the various islands. This is why we introduced a number of years ago this freight subsidy to air travel in the ~7inter. It is generally on a very short-term basis. In the Fogo Island situation now, the extended period, I think, has been ten days that the boat has not been able to get back and forth on 2731

April 16, 1984 Tape 1025 EC - 1 MR. DAWE: any kind of a regular basis. But this service is in place from the Northern Peninsula into Coastal Labrador, it is in place, as I indicated, to Little Bay Islands and Long Island, it is in place to Change Islands, it is in place to st. Brendan's if necessary, it is in place to Fogo Island, and it is a service that we have been providing. It is a supple­ mentary service, it is in addition to the regular ferry­ boat service. And, Mr.

Speaker, I might point out, it was through the initiative of my department and through this administration that the new vessel being designed for Fogo Island has much increased icebreaking capacity SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: - and is adequately ice rein- forced to handle most of the ice conditions that it Nill be subjected to in that particular area. And we are doing all that we can. That particular boat wi~l cost in excess of $8 million and will cost us additional money, of course, in ongoing subsidies.

We are very conscious of our responsibility to service the islands around this Province and we are doing all we can. If this goes on for an extended period of time,then we will have perhaps to reassess the situation as it relates to the provision of service, but we will do that on an ongoing basis. Officials of the department are monitoring that all the time. The member made reference to a situation last year where we provided water bomber service to and from Bell Island. 0£ course, this was done because of the fact that Bell Island has an airstrip and it could be used. I would also point out, Mr.

Speaker, that from the Province's point of view, a priority,as it relates to airstrip developrnent,is an airstrip for Fogo Island to 2732

- -· -·-· ---"-----""'--- April 16, 1984 Tape 1025 EC - 2 MR. DAWE:. service the people on the island. I have made representation to the federal minister and have had conversations with him about that particular project, and hopefully, if this can happen in the very near future, some of the problems associated with that, and the possi- bility of using the water bomber as an emergency craft, are very positive, and I think we would be only too happy to do that kind of a thing. But the building of an air- strip certainly is a prerequisite to that sort of activity happening. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I have asked the minister, and I do not believe he answered the question - perhaps he did not understand it - but I would like to ask him again if,in view of the fact that there is no airstrip on Fogo I Island and the water bombers cannot land there, we recognize that; and in view of the fact that if you have to fly those water bombers, they cost you money - MR. MORGAN: Where are the icebreakers? MR. TULK: Most of them are stuck. If the member for Bonavista South wants to find out, most of them are stuck. it may get there. HR. UORGAN: 1ffi.

TULK: The Franklin is on its way up there, Phat a lack of co-operation! Anyway, Mr. Speaker, let me come back to a minister with, perhaps, enough intelligence to answer the question: In view of the fact that there is no airstrip, that you cannot send the water bombers there~ and. in view of the fact that those water bombers cost money, would he now agree to subsidize the extra cost of getting freight to Fogo Island by air? Would he now agree to subsidize that 100 per cent? 2733

' .. ..-.:i'~-: .... ::-;=m··y.jl' ' ~-~ April 16, 1984 Tape 1026 PK- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Transporta t·ion. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I can very well understand the situation perhaps a lot better in its totality than the member who asked the question. And perhaps he just was not listening to the answer that I Jave in response to the same question he asked before. And perhaps, Mr. Speaker, as wellt the tone in which the hon. member asked the second question,which was the same.as the I one before,~t-really does not deserve a response. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins),! want to ask the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall), the Government House Leade~a question. Could the minister give us an update on the Come By Chance oil refinery as it pertains to the employees there? Could the minister tell us have any of the employees at the refinery been placed in alternate employment? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. 'Speaker, I do not think there is anything further to give an update on than what the Minister of Finance gave when he was in the House about a week or ten d~ys ago. You know, he announced the situation with respect to the refinery as it had been imparted to us by Petro-Canada. As he knows,every effo~t will be made by all concerned to see what possibly can be done with respect to alternate employment for the employees there. But I have nothing further that I can add to what the minister already 2734

. ···. ·: ·:.·t~. <-~ :.:.,'!i:..~:.~~·-~ ---- ·.;.... - ~- --- April 16, 1984 Tape 1026 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: info:tmed the House when he gave a mar~ detailed presentation of the facts. MR. CALLAN: K ·supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bel~evue, a supplementary.' MR. CALLAl\T: Perhaps the minister can tell the House whether or not the employees at the refinery,at least nine of whom are employed with a security company, once their jobs are terminated, which I assume they will be, will they be receiving servance pay? Could ,the minister tel.l the House tha:t? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, thexe are normal laws that apply in tnis Province with respect to termination of employment of .. employees of this nature and I would assume that the employees will be able to avail of that. I am not in a position at the present time to respond accurately and definitively to __ ..,) 2735

April 16,1984 Tape No. 1027 ah-1 MR.MARSHALL: the amount of any severance pa~ if any 1 that will be paid. But I will certainly take notice and we will look into it for the hon. gentleman . MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker,,if I can get the attention of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) for a moment I have a question to direct his way. We all heard the announcement today that Eastern Provincial Airways had been purchased by Canadian Pacific.

Would the hon. gentleman tell the House if there was any prior consultation with the administration before the transfer of ownership was discussed with Canadian Pacific? MR. SPEAKER: Transportation. MR.DAWE: was not. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR.NEARY: The hon. Minister of No, Mr. Speaker, there The bon. Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, I would assume, then,from that answer that the hon. gentleman is not in a position to say whether the takeover by Canadian Pacific will be beneficial to the Province or not, whether it will mean improved service to Newfoundland and Labrador or not • Does the bon. gentleman have any knowledge of that or is he just completely in the dark as far as the airline is concerned? MR. SPEAKER: Transportation. MR.DAWE: The bon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I thank the bon. member for the question because it perhaps provides me with an opportunity to outline the whole situation. 2736

. ' April 16,1984 Tape No. 1027 ah-2 MR.DAWE: Since we first learned that Eastern Provincial Airways were moving,initially; some of its staff to Nova Scotia1and then a number of months later it indicated to us that it would consult us on the results of an internal review proces~ which they did not do until the eleventr_·hour1and subsequently announced that the airline operation would be moving holus-bolus to Nova Scotia, the Province made some requests through the Premier's office, through my office, through personal conversations that I had with Mr • Steele, the president of Eastern Provincial Airways 1 asking for specific information and rational for their move.

None of that information was forthcoming, Mr. Speaker. I guess,. now today 1 with the announcement that CP have taken over Eastern Provincial Airways,we now know for sure what a number of us suspected, We now know for sure that the reason we were not getting the information is because there was no way that the company was going to let that kind of information go1because this was part.of a plan to take over Eastern Provincial Airways. This, Mr.

Speaker, is my assessment of it: Eastern Provincial Airways were to do the dirty work and move EPA out of Newfoundland and into Nova Scotia,wbere it would be perceived as being a more viable operation and more centrally.located for the purposes of an eventual CP takeover1which occured today. I was called by a member of the board at about five to eleven this morning and was informed of the pending announcement that CP were taking over Eastern Provincial Airways. 2737

·- '.. . ·:·- ~ . '~---- __ ......:......._ ... .;;... .. ___ , __ :._ __ _ April 16, 1984, Tape 1028, Page l -- apb MR. DAWE: I was also informed that the corporate structure would remain intact in that Eastern Provincial Airways would still be a separate company; it would retain its present staff, its present administrative structure, and would essentially operate with no known changes as it relates to scheduling or operations within this Province or elsewhere in Atlantic Canada for any foreseeable future that the member of the board knew about. I have subsequently Mr.

Speaker, telexed the President of CP and asked for a meeting with him and members of his staff to discuss the takeover, to discuss the implications for this Province, and to find out whether in fact there would be any changes, and to try and encourage,Mr. Speaker, the new operators of Eastern Provincial Airways to make a more direct commitment to this Province than has been the case with the present EPA. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : the Opposition. A final supplementary, The hon. the Leader of MR.

NEARY: I am glad the hon. gentleman is establishing some kind of a dialogue, communications-with Canadian Pacific, because hon. members are aware that there has been a complete breakdown in communications between the minister and Eastern Provincial Airways. Can the hon. gentleman tell the House if the boycott of EPA has been lifted? And if so, why does the hon. gentleman now have to charter airplanes at tremendous cost to the taxpayer? MR. MORGAN: boycott. 2738 There was never a

April 16, 1984, Tape 1028, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman can also tell the House why the administration there opposite gave up the final say, gave up control of EPA, gave up having ministers on the Board of Directors of EPA two or three years ago, why these things happened. Now, it is like the offshore, they have to sit there and watch it like a football game. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is Question Period.

The hon. gentleman is on a supplementary question, he is making a speech, he is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: I want to refer to a reference that I indeed made on Friday, that the purpose of the Question Period is to gather information and not to provide it to the House. MR. NEARY: I just want the hon. minister to reassure this House, Mr. Speaker, that there will be dialogue with the new owners and they will not -·~--~ sulk and pout like they did with Eastern Provincial Airways and get on with these silly boycotts.

I a.Ir. asking the hon. gentleman if the boycott has been lifted yet and,if so,why are ministers using government aircraft and chartering airplanes from Labrador Airways to fly around the Province? And why did they give up control two or three years ago? That is the most important question of all, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: of Transportation. MR. DAWE: The hon. the Minister Mr. Speaker, first of all, as it relates to dialogue,! carried out an ongoing monthly, sometimes weekly dialogue with the President of Eastern Provincial Airways and members of his staff. 2739

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1029 MJ .- 1 MR. DAWE: I had meetings in Gander with him 1 as a result of their move of some persennel to Nova Sc6tia 1 and was assured by the President of Eastern Provincial Airways,in the presence of a staff member, that he would consult with me specifically and with the Province as it relates to the results of that internal study and he subsequently refused to do so.

I Telexed,on a number of occasions 1the president trying to locate him on his travels and could not do so,but was able to reach him by telephone on one occasion and was essentially told that the information was none of my business and that ended the dialogue between my department, or me personally, and the President of Eastern Provincial Airways. I was more than willing to carry on discussion and tried on several other occasions to do so. But .as I indicated, Mr.

Speaker, what has transpired today, ~he takeover bv canadian P~cific of P-astern Provincial Airways,is only proof of the reason why we could not get the information and why there was no dialogue from the President of Eastern Provincial ~~r~ays. The only boycott, Mn. Speaker, that · ·I am aware of imposed upon "Rastern Provincial Airways was done, so I believe, by NAPE 1 '·rhich called for a boycott of Eastern Provincial Airways because of labour problems that the airline was having with its employees.

The Province and the provincial government never had a boycott, never indicated that it would boycott Eastern Provincial Airways. What it did was rescind a preference order that was issued to staff saying that,where they had a choice of airlines, they try and choose Eastern Provincial Airways, ':':'hat !_)articular Minute-in-r.ouncil was -~which gave the individual staff member of government the choice of making a decision or which airline they chose, but in no ~.:ray it reT)resentec1 a bo'!cott. Mr.

Speaker, the use of charter aircraft and government aircraft to carry on government business has heen explained 2740

Apr"il ' 16; 1984 Tape No.l029 . MJ- 2 MR . DAWE: several times in this House. It was an ongoing practise and is an ongoing practise in all governments across the country,and is a n ecessity because of the size arid the geography particularl y of this Province . As it relates to the control over Eastern Provincial Airways from a financial point of view, that matter 2741

.:1...:..: April 16, 1984 Tape 1030 EC - 1 .MR. DAWE: was adequately explained on several occasions in this House, most recently by my colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The problem is that nothing has been adequately or satisfactorily explained, Mr. Speaker. Now, let me ask the han. gentle­ man about the rescinding of the Cabinet directive that the public service travel on Eastern Provincial. Has that been reinstated?

Has that silly, foolish nonsense on the part of the Premier,when he sulked and pouted and got contrary, Mr. Speaker - MR. TOBIN: Brief questions! Brief questions! • MR. DANE: If you ~d ask the question I would be glad to~ it • r.m. NEARY: - has that :.order now been reinstated, that public servants are once again permitted to travel on Eastern Provincial Airways and stay at hotels that are owned by Newfoundland Capital Corporation? MR. BARRETT: ~m. SPEAKER: MR, DAWE: He has already answered the question. The hon. the Minister of Transportation. Mr.

Speaker, really, I have trouble trying to answer the questions that are put forward by the Leader of the Opposition, especially as it relates to this: An announcement was made, I believe of£icially at noon today,or at 11:00 a.m., as it relates to a take­ over of the regional carrier in this Province; at 4:00 in that same afternoon, the Leader of the Opposition, the member for LaPoile, stands up and asks if we have 2742

.. -J April 16, 1984 Tape 1030 EC -2 MR. DAWE: rescinded or reinstated a Cabinet directive that require~, first of all, Mr. Speaker, unlike the Cabinet that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) used to take

part in, where orders appeared out of the blue without proper and adequate preparation or consultation, that is not the case here.

After such ~ime as we have an opportunity to sit down and talk with Canadian Pacific as to their working relationship with the Province and their service to the people of this Province, if they prove to be better corporate citizens that we have been dealing with over the past number of months, if that is the case then we will certainly consider a number of aspects, a number of ways of trying to support and encourage a be~ter trans­ portation network, a better air service in this Province for any corporate entity that comes in and wishes to provide it.

But until such time as we have an opportunity to sit down and look at what is being offered and what is being suggested, until we have an opportunity to discuss that collectively around the Cabinet table, then certainly, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position, nor would I even suggest I am in a position to rescind or reinstate a Cabinet order on two hours notice without Cabinet meeting on it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Fogo • MR. TULK: .Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Mi.nister of Fisheries (1-fr. l•brgan).

It concerns the salmon. management plan that has recently been put out by the federal minister. (}'lr. De Bane) . We were informed last week by the minister that he was going to have a meeting with the federal JJ!inister this weekend. I would like to ask him 2743

-~· ·_.· ·\'·-~:·.:.:.~: ... ::.:..::~ ... ;,:. ~-~ _ .. April 16, 1984 Tape 1030 EC - 3 MR. TULK: il he has had any meetings this weekend with the federal ndnister. If he has not, has h·e held any conversations with him? I would also like to add one othe .r question for the minister, since I understand Question Period has just about gone. Did the provincial minister (Mr. Morgan) request, and is it correct that the federal 2744

----·- - ~--~- ~- ----- April 16, 1984 Tape 1031 PK - l MR. TULK: Minister of Fisheries .(Mr. (De Bane) refused to involve the .Fishermen's Union in this Province in a meeting with the federal minister? AN HON. MEMBER: What! I~ that true? · MR. TULK: I am asking him is it'- . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The Question Period will be over in two minutes. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is, no, we did not meet for obvious reasons,because of weather conditions. Mr. De Bane flew into st. John's or over St.

John's on Saturday evening, Because of J - .... weath~r conditions, a bad sleet storm 1etc •1 he : could not land. So we have not met over the weekend. As we know, on Friday afternoon the policy was changed and a major announcement made with regards to compensation for fishermen. The Fishermen's Union and ourselves discussed that statement of Friday from the federal minister. This morning we discussed that statement. We have now telexed the federal minister in a joint Telex, Mr. Cashin and myself ha~ ·forwarded a Telex to Mr.

De Bane's office pointing out OYr: posi tion. 1, an agreement we have reached here, the Union and myself. And un~il that has reached Mr .. De Bane's office and until that is discussed with Mr. De Bane by telephone tomorrow 1there will be no further comment. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): O:b.der ., please! The time for the Question Period has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. 2745

- f -~' April 16, 1984 Tape 1031 PK - 2 MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I have a report to table that will be of much interest to the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). It . is the annual report of the Workers' Compensation Commission for 1983. I - - - ------·--- --- -------- And I point to page 11 for the han. Leader of the Opposition's information, just to give a brief underst;anding to the han. Leader of the Opposition about deficits. He is very interested in these things. In 1981 we had a surplus $4,775,496,which surplus is carried over into the next year.

So in 1982 there was a deficit of $10,108,000, and if we subtract the $4,775,496 it comes out to $5,332,000 for 1982. So if you carry over the $5,332,000 and add the $5 million deficit this year , note now, a decrease of $5 million rather than $10 million, we come out with a total of $10,986,4D6. That is -·- _.:. ... " on page 11, for the hon. Leader of the Opposition's information.

I am sure he is going to be scrutinizing that and he will be asking me questions on it. _··i" And I would also like to inform him that on page 3 he will see,effective January 1, 1983, all the increased benefits taat we came to the people who get Workers' Callpensation. . in the Province. Let me note, for example, the burial allowance gone to $1,120 from $1,000; the widow's monthly allowance to $459.20 from $410.00; an . increase in dependent children monthly allowance from $100 to $112; an increase in the minimum weekly payment for temporary and total disability from ·$122 to $137. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, ·on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition, on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I believe Your Honour called under the Standing Rules of this House, Tabling of Reports. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is very uncommon,indeed,in this 2746 /

April 16, 1984 Tape 1031 PK - 3 MR . NEARY: House, as a matter of fact it is not permitted under the ru1es 1to get up then and read a report. Your Honour asked ministers to 2747

April 16, 1984 Tape No.l032 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: table reports. We can read. All the hon. gentleman has to do is put the report on the table of the House as Your Honour asked him to do and forget about his harangue and his rudeness and his insults, Mr. Speaker, and put the report on the table where it is supposed to be. MR. DINN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (_Russell): To that point of order, the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr, Speaker, the reason why I gave a brief explanation of the annual report of the Workers' Compensation Commission was · s-imply because the hon.

Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Nearyl for the past two years did no understand the report and I was attempting to make it a little clearer to him. Because I am sure he w:ill not come to me to get clarification 1 he will go on with his usual misinterpretation of the report or lack of understanding of the report. . So I table 'the report, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order raised by the han.

Leader of the Opposition 1 the Chair called 'Presenting Reports of Standing and Special Committees~ and it has been, from time to time, the Chair has given some leeway to ministers to take a minute or two to make some points. Certainly I do not think it should be a custom of this House to read reports and get into great detail with them. MR. DINN; Thank y.ou very much, Mr. Speaker, I table the report. 2748

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1032 SD - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Concurrence Motion. Order No. 3 1 Social Services Committee. The debate was adjourned last day by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary ·). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Fisheries has scooted out of th .e House again. The Premier is away today, gone on his little jaunt across Canada. No doubt now with the Easter recess coming up he will find his way to sunny climes. He does · not seem to want to be in the Province when we have problems, Mr. Speaker.

Some­ how or other,every time we have an emergency in the Province, every time we have a disaster, every time there is bad news, we find that the Premier is absent from his office. And as I have said before, Mr. Speaker, not only will the hon. gentleman go down in history as the greedest negotiator in our history, but also as the laziest Premier. Any excuse at all to get out of the office, to get out of the House of Assembly 1• He is gone off now to spend $100,000 of taxpayers •· money. MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the han.

The hon. gentleman is standing up and he is deceiving the House, he is trying to mislead the Hbuse,because the fact is · the hen, gentleman is quite aware,despite any complaint he may have of the Premier, there is one thing we know, the Premier is not a lazy man. He is not lazy. He works night and day ·, as long as sixteen or seventeen hours a day,and he is presently working now on behalf of this Province. What is he doing? He is out putting foward the case of our offshore to other parts of Canada. He was doing :tt i:n Moncton over the weekend, h.e is · doing it today in other parts of New- Brunswick..

So he is not out just wasting time to be away· from the House, h.e is out working for the Province of Newfoundland, 2749

_, April 16, 1984 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1032 SD - 3 To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To that point of order, the han. Mr. Speaker, if one were to log the amount of time that the Premier spends in his office and in this House, then you could only come to one conclusion: The hon. gentleman is lazy, he does not have the energy, he does not have the capability, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: does not have the energy - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman Oh, oh. .i::•-- ·-· MR. WINDSOR: MR.

SPEAKER: That is an outright lie and you know it! Order, please! MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: MR. NE.II.RY : The han. member has to withdraw that. Order, please! You know that is not true. The han. gentleman has to withdraw that remark, Mr. Speaker, before I proceed. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Are you finished with that point of order? MR. NEARY: No~ before I proceed I want the hon. gentleman to withdraw his unparliamentary language, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: There was reference made that 'it is a lie', and it has been ruled many times in the past that this is not permissible parliamentary language. I would ask the hon. member if he would withdraw that. MR. t-7INDSOR: Certainly, Mr. speaker, I will accept your ruling and I will withdra'"' it. But the point I am making is that when an hon. member knows something not to be accurate, he should not be allowed to st.and in this 2750

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J- April 16, 1984 Tape No . 1033 MJ- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Ayl ward ) : Order, p],ease! To the point of order raised by the hen. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) 1 I rule that there is a difference of opinion between two hen. members. But I would like to remind hen. members once again, Beauchesne, page 103, rule 316., "Besides the prohibitions contained in S.O. 35, it has been sanctioned by usage that a Member, while speaking, must not:" -and there are several tnings there- "refer -to the presence or absence of specific Members~ MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is not what I am referring to. That particular part of Beauchesne does not apply. We are talking about the Premier and the amount of time he spends in nis office, the amount of time he spends working for the people of this Province. MR. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Orde±~ -please! Order, pleaseJ A point of order, the hen. the member for st'. John Is North. MR. CARTER: We are so used to these McCarthy- like tactics in this House that each time the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) gets up one tends not even to notice it,but I think he should be drawn to order, Mr.

Speaker. He is not allowed; (

a) to comment on the abseace or presence of members or their attendance in this House, neither is he allowed to insult deliberately, personally abuse another - ~ on. m=mber,and I t~ ink he should b~ brought to order. HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition. 2752

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1033 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour will of course rule that that is merely a difference of opinion between two han. gentlemen. There is no personal abuse. It so happens that the Chief Executive Officer of this Province is absent every time we have a crisis in this province. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is too.much of a coincidence. What I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, is if you were to log the amount of time the han. gentleman spends in'his office and here in the House working for the people of the Province,you could only come to one conclusion, that he has to be the laziest premier in our whole history. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! To that point of order,! ~ule there is a difference of opinion betno~een t,.,o han. members. The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Uinister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) somehow or other seems to think that going off on a little jaunt across Canada and reading a prepared speech is -arduous, that it is very tiring. The hon. gentleman said to look how hard he worked in Moncton the other night making his speech. I consider, Mr. Speaker, making speeches, in my opinion, a pleasure and, ~x. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the hen. gentleman is looking for any excuse to get away from the Province, to get away from the heat of the day, to get away from the problems confronting our people, Mr. Speaker. MR. MORGAN: Where are your colleagues? They are all home today. MR.

CALLAN: '!hey are at th~ airport greeting the next Prine Minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: The Minister of Fisheries seems to 2753

.-,-, .·:.c·~--:;.._ --··--·"'--·-_:. ---'-'. -~ - ----"- - -=----- April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1033 MJ- 3 MR. NEARY: be awfully testy today for some rea~o~ _d_r other, Mr. Speaker. Somebody has walked on the bon. gentleman's toes today. -:--mt~~ ~-etr, · they <tte oat 11eeting- ':I:'W:nerl '!!iat is "lhere they are! SOME. _Bml. MF.u'"mERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR . NEARY: Q&__ oh! Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, our fishery is in trouble, our forest ±ndustz:ies -·are in trouble, we have the worst federal/provincial relations we have ever had in our whole history, the mining industry is in trouble, industries are shutting down right, left and center, no new industries or businesses a.re opening up, not one in the last twelve or thirt'een years since the Tories. took over in this Province.and where is the Premier? Half of the tim e be is out ~ f _ _!l_i_:; _ c;> ~ fice, be is gallivanting across Canada wasting 2 7 5 L•

-·---=- · --- ·- April 16, 1984, Tape 1034, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: taxpayer money. It would be far better he stayed here and used that $100,000 to subsidize the air service to Fogo Island so that people would not get an increase on the commodities, their groceries that are being flown in there. As I said to the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker, making a speech is the easiest thing in the world, especially if you have a speech writer and you have your chief advisor and an entourage with you,compliments of the t~xpayers of this Province, to prop you up and to try to bolster your ego for you.

Because that is all he is on, an ego trip. He is out now going across Canada, spending $100,000, to prove that he is not sulky or greedy, or that he does not pout, Mr. Speaker, that he is not aggressive, he is not a confrontationalist. That is what he is trying to do now, trying to change his image.

He admitted the other day in one of these silly documents that was circulated in the House. 'I admit', he said, 'that it is my style, that I am partly to blame, it is my own fault, so I am going to take $100,000 taxpayer money now to try to remedy that, to try to correct that.' He spent the last four or five years attacking everybody in sight, frothing at the mouth, waving his arms, wild-eyed and glassy-eyed, and now he is going to spend $100,000 of taxpayer money to try to show that he is not the kind who rants and raves and who sulks and pouts and gets contrary and snooty and arrogant.

He is going to spend $100,000 of taxpayer money now, Mr. Speaker, to prove that that is not so. That to my estimation and in my opinion is shameful, when the money could be better used for some other purpose. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to come back to the Minister of Fisheries(Mr.Morgan) for a moment about the famous meeting that was supposed to 2755

--·-· ...• :-...---·----- April 16, 1984, Tape 1034, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: weekend. MR. WARREN: that meeting? MR. NEARY: place. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: take place on the Oh, yes. What about Well, it did not take Oh! We are told now that Mr. De Bane was overhead in his jet, I presume an MOT jet - MR. MORGAN: The same one Chretien carne in at the taxpayers' expense. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman should know the difference of that. MR. MORGAN: It is the same plane. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Order, please! MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman should know the difference of that. MR.

MORGAN: It was the same plane that Chretien carne in, carne looking for votes at the taxpayers' expense. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: He carne here at the taxpayers' expense, on a government aircraft. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman can shout now all he likes, he can try to shout me down all he wants, but, Mr. Speaker - MR. MORGAN: What are you saying \ Chretien carne in on - MR. NEARY: Canada flight. MR. MORGAN: his leadership campaign on a 714. He carne in on an Air - a government aircraft for MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is talking through his hat. 2756

""'~-·-·-· ________ ..-.:..:;"""'-''-- April 16-1 1984, Tape 1034, Page 3 --apb MR. MORGAN: paid for his trip to Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: . He did! The taxpayers Mr. Chretien came in on an Air Canada plane, a regular flight on an Air canada plane. MR. WARREN: He is talking about the provincial Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe). MR. NEARY: No, the Minister of Transportation is the one who charters the planes. 2757

___ ...__ ,, --~,;;;~ ' ... April 16,1984 Tape No. 1035 ah-1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: I think, Mr. Speaker, I will have a few words to say in this debate to point out quite clearly that if the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) worked one-tenth, not one-fifth or one-third or one-quarter,but one-tenth as hard as the Premier of our Province 1 he might be,one of these days down the road, iri five to ten years or fifteen years,become Premier of our Province.

If he worked only one tenth as hard his chances could be there of becoming a permanent leader and carrying on to become Premier of our Province. He stands up to condemn the Premier for trav~lling across the country-doing what? If we had had some fair treatment from Ottawa today 1 or the last six or seven months ~n ~his Province, -~ - _ _)__ ---- - we would not have to have the Premier t r avel across .. ·-- - - · .. ·' - ---· - the country spending $100,000 \ __ if.we had got a fair deal from Ottawa.

But his own colleagues in Ottawa would not give us a deal on the offshore to the satisfaction of Newfoundlan~rs in general,not just the Newfoundland government. There may be a few people who would disagree 1 like the editorial board of the Daily News who are out campaigning for .the Jean ~hretien types. There are a few of them ~ --- -- around, sure they are. But the general populace? I travelled this weekend down in Harbour Breton, for example, and spoke to a capacity crowd on the offshore and pointed out our stand.· What did I get? A standing ovation! Over the weekend in Harbour Breton on the 275'8

April 16,1984 Tape No. 1035 ah-2 MR.MORGAN: South Coastr where offshore really is not that important to them, their/industry is fishing. My colleague was down with me, the member ~ for the area 1 and my colleague for Burin \-=::_~a~~-~ia West (Mr. Tobin) was with me as well. MR.TOBIN: ~d _w ~ re go~ng to LaPoile district .

MR.MORGAN: And if the government today in Ottawa had given us a deal on the offshore to the satisfaction of Newfoundlanders,we would not .. have to have the Premier of our Province having to travel across the country of Canada to explain to the rest of Canadians the manner in which Ottawa, the central government of Canada_, is treating its smallest province - ~· I' ~, well,its second smallest Province, PEI is the smallest, but the newest Province in this great Confederation.

Here we have to go across the country to explain to the rest of Canadians in our great Confederation why people like Jean Chretien and Prime Minister Trudeau and others in Ottawa are being so unfair, and to quite clearly show how they are being unfair to little old Newfoundland here. Now if the hon. gentleman as the · :temporary leader, interim leader, House Leader or oth~rwise - we cannot call him a permanent leader of his party because he is not. He was not elected to that position. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.MORGAN: But he is a non-elected leader at the present time of his party.

If he had ·had any influence at all with his colleagues in Ottawa 1and if people who are now out campaigning with some of the ministers who are running, for the Liberal leadership, like 1 for example 1Mr.Callahan - I have seen all kinds of editorials in his paper condemning the Peckford government and their policies, condemning 2759

~ -·- _.:__ r•-·--• '•-•• •:_:-~~- April 16,1984 Tape No. 1035 ah-3 MR.MORGAN: our stand on the offshore and at the same time agreeing that we had to get a fair deal; now he is out supporting the same man that would not give us a fair deal, supporting him and,I understand 1is his campaign manager in the Province. I am not going to attack him as an indiv,idual because I know Mr. Call~han is a fine man, a fine individual, a fine gentleman. I have know him over:the years, a three-time loser in the last election , a three-time loser in the provincial elections now in a row. But, Mr.

Speaker, if we had support from his paper in his editorial policies, and the support of his colleagues 1 like the Liberal party today Mr. Peckford and his government's stand on~the offshore 1 we would not have had the Premier speaking in MC)nct~n la-st night 1 I think today he is in Fredericton and on from there across the country 1and we would not have to spend $100,000 to explain to the rest of thb great country of Canada why and how we are being so unfairly treated by the government in Ottawa today. That is why that is happening• 2760

April 16, 1984 Tape 1036 EC ~ 1 MR . MORGAN: And n0\'1 he is going to condemn the Premier for spending that amount of money to make sure the rest of Canada, all the provinces, are going to understand. Obviously, the Gove~ent of Canada today, I would not say they de not understand, they clearly understand, they know what it is all about, they clearly understand that, but they are simply refusing to be fair to us. And last week in thj_s -;arne debate, the hon. gentleman stood up and taunted us with a letter that he had from Mr. Chretien, some statement he had, which Mr.

Chretien, when he was here, was going around passing out to all his supporters and saying, 'Here is my stand on the offshore. It is even better than the Nova Scotian deal.' Now, that is absolute rubbish and nonsense! Because all we have received from the Liberal Government at Ottawa to date is no better than the Nova Scotian offshore agreement, and we are not going to accept that Nova Scotian agreernen .t that r,.ras nut · forward to us.

Already we have had federal/provincial studies carried out by the Nova Scotia government and the Government of Canada, and these studies alone quite clearly state clearly state there is very little tangible benefit with regard to revenue from any development of the offshore gas finds in Nova Scotia. That is clear evidence alone that it is a bad agreement with Nova Scotia and it is the kind of agreement we in this Province are not going to accept, I think the Premier will be very, very successful in his tour across the country, in explaining and getting people to understcnd.

I am convinced when our Premier has finished his tour across the country that 2761

April 16, 1984 Tape 1036 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: practically all Canadians will understand that what we have been offered for our resources, in this case , the offshore oil , and gas resources, is just not a good deal or a fair deal for the 500,000 Newfoundlanders living in this part of Canada. It is just not a good deal. Now, why would I say that'? It is because the majority of Newfoundlanders think the same thing. The Liberal Party may think that suddenly the people 0f Newfoundland no longer are supporting the Premier's policy and the Premier's position on the offshore. Oh, how they are going to be let down!

The people throughout this Province today are just as firmly behind the Premier - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right on! MR. MORGAN: now as they always were! SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. MORGAN: - just as firmly behind the Premier Hear, hear! And even moreso, because they see now the arrogance of people like Mr. Jean Chretien. He came with us not merely discourteously but arrogantly - just pure arrogance - by announcing he had issued seventeen drilling permits for our offshore without even the courtesy of telling our minister. Now, that is what turned Newfoundlanders off just recently. He thought he was going to be a big hero!

He is looking for votes in Newfoundland, looking for votes for the Liberal Party to help him become leader of the Liberal Party in Ottawa 1 and he thought it would be a great deal! Smart-ass type tactics! Excuse my language! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: I should not say 'ass',I guess, because an ass is a donkey. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. WARREN: The han. member should withdraw. 2762

April 16, 1984 Tape 1036 EC - 3 MR . MORGAN: He is not a donkey. I withdraw that word. I will say he is a smart donkey - smart donkey tactics . He came down he and said, 'Oh, we have some good news for Newfoundland! We have seventeen new permits to be issued! ' But in my travels, and I have done a fair amount of travelling around the Province since -tr::~.t time, I have found that Newfoundlanders are saying, 'Oh, is that the kind of man we want in Ottawa, to come down and just run roughshod over NevTfoundlanders in such an arrogant way? · Oh, no! Mr . Trudeau was bad enough ! But surely , Mr.

Chretien, we expect more of you than that !' Newfoundlanders are saying they expected more of Mr . Barry when he crossed the floor and joined the Opposition than what they have seen so far. All over the Province they are saying that . 2763

--"'--- - April 16, 1984 Tape 1037 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: The man whom most influential Newfoundland Liberal Party people, like the Leader, I understand 1 and a number of MHAs in the House and Mr. Callahan and other prominent Liberals have gotten behind - they may all show up tonight just to show a little Newfoundland party for Mr. Turner but that is our own natural hospitality of Newfoundlanders- 'But they are all 1 behind the scenes, working for Mr. Jean Chretien. And when Mr.

Jean Chretein becomes leade~ Newfoundlanders will say, My goodness 1 we are never going to vote for that man the way he was so discourteous-to our Newfoundland Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) and to Newfoundlanders in general. So all of these messages are coming across-the country and they are all tying in to what the Premier is now doing. I again take strong exception, as one minister in Mr. Peckford's Cabinet to those charges.

I think there is not one member of our caucus but will agree with what I am going to say now, that there was never, including Premier Smallwood who worked hard as a Newfoundlander for his country, for his Province, but even then there was never a Premier of this Province who works . any harder or worked harder than the Premier Peckford we have now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: So when someone stands in the House and says the~Premier is lazy 1 I hope that is carried in the media tomorrow 1 that the- leader of the Liberal Party of Newfoundland says that the Premier_ is a lazy Premier,because I will tell you that the people of Newfoundland .indeed they know different. MR. NEARY: They sure do. MR. MORGAN: They stand behind him on his policies, they stand behind him on his work, and I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, in a year or two years,whenever a general 2764

April 16, 1984 Tape 1037 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: election comes around 1 they will clearly show that they believe in Premier Peckford. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I should not lower myself to reply to the hon. gentleman because,as t said the other day in this House 1it seems to me that every time the administration wants to lower the Bebate in this House, they want to get low-class and low level debate ,they put up the most crude members they can find in their ranks, ~~r. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: MR.

MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: They put up those who are uncouth. Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I do not need to quote to Your Honour the passages in Beauchensne about insulting remarks. I realize the han. gentleman finds it difficult to speak without insulting people 1 but it is a matter of degree, Mr. Speaker,and he I think he is going over the line right now and he should be asked to curb his remarks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, . oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To that point of order, although I have been listening to the debate,! do not know that what the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Nearyr said could be ruled unparliamentary but it do~s not do anything to add to the level of debate. MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, so what they do is put up the most crude and uncouth members in their ranks. You see, the whole idea is to try to get the Opposition to get down and 2765

... ·-~ ..... ~;~·~-. :~· _. · .. r..... .:. ~.~<"""'Y"- • ·;· -.: _......; ... _.....,...,.,.~·~,., 'h'i"!o iS·.,... April 16, 1984 Tape 1037 PK - 3 MR . NEARY: roll in the mud with the low level of debate. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is their strategy ? · What tactics do they use? Well,first of all let me deal with the Premier and his laziness . Mr. Speaker, I again say,and I repeat what I said 1that he has to be one of the laziest in our whole history, getting aboard of a plane jetting off over to New Brunswick a.nd making a speech, Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion is a pleasure; but staying in your office and trying to solve the unemployment in this Province,or trying to get the fishery back in shape,or trying to get jo bs for young people wh o graduated from the College of Trades and Technology and the oniversity to get jobs for our young Newfoundlanders or t.rying to do something about the forest industry , Bowater and that sort of thing, now, Mr. Speaker, that is what I call hard work. 276 6

.. . . . . ~' ' - _,.._........,_,__,. __ _ ,._... . April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1038 MJ- l MR. NEARY: Now is that what the Premier spends his time at,or does he get aboard of a plane, where you have lunch served, Mr. Speaker, and then you land and you go to a cushy hotel on the Ma.imland and you have somebody carry your bags· for you and you go down and you make a speech? Now is that hard work, Mr. Speaker? That is what the hon. gentleman is trying -to persuade us, convince us is hard work. Now, Mr. Speaker, knocking on doors is hard work, yes, but "the Premier is not going to knock on any doors, Mr. Speaker.

So I hope I have laid that to rest, Mr. Speaker. Now let '·us get back to the strategy and the arguments of the administration there opposite . They will condemn the proposals, the package that was on the table,but they do not tell us what it is they want. I have yet to hear one member, including the Gove rnment House Leader . (~~r. ~-1arshall) , Mr. Speaker:- MR. MORGAN: SCME H<N. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: Have you read the docurrerit? Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! The Premier is now gallivanting across Canada, he has not told us what he wants. Now, let me read Mr.

Chretien's statement that he made at a news conference and this is the package that is on the table. Let me read parts of it to the hon. House, Mr. Speaker, because I am sure hon. gentleman have not taken the time to read it . And then, once I read these oaragraphs, then hon . members should ask themselves, what they want • Forget this nonsense of getting up and saying they are trying to steal something from us, they are trying to take something away from us~ Let them say what it is they want. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me read from page 2 of this statement. 'First let us look at 2767

- - ·- · .. - ··-- -~--·-· ~ ·-·:.... .. -~2-"----'~""'-'-.;.__- April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1038 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: the financial provisions. There has been a good deal of talk by the Newfoundland Government and some others that Newfoundland should have the same rights to offshore oi~ and gas .as the provinces have for onshore resoura:es •. The argument makes sense but there is a twist to .it. In fact, for the foreseeable future' - list'en to this, ~rr.

Speaker - ~for the foreseeable future the Province would be in substantially better financial situation under our offshore proposals than it would if it owned the offshore or if the same resources were on land.' Mr. Speaker, after reading that,do you not have to ask yourself a simple question, why are they turning that down and what ±s ib .they want in its place?' MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: They do not know.

No, they do not know that is for sure. 'That is one paragraph, now listen to this one: 'To start with,under a Nova Scotia type agreement the Newfoundland Government would receive more oil revenues in the early years of offshore development than if it owned the resource. The province would receive all provincial type taxes and the largest remaining federal tax, the petroleum and gas revenue tax, the PGRT. No one can seriously question the generosity of this proposal. When would the provincial government be expected to share some of these revenues with ether Canadians?

Not until the Newfoundland Government's fiscal capacity reached 110 per cent of the national average with the adjustment for regional unemployment that would now raise this to about 125 per cent. In relative terms,' Mr. Speaker, -'this would mean that the 2768

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1039 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Newfoundland Government would not be asked to share any revenue until it was the second richest Province in Canada.' Listen to that. The hon. gentleman says they are trying to take s·omething and they they do not want to give us anything. They wan~ to . .take us the second richest Province in Canada, second only to Alberta, Mr. Speaker, about 40 per cent richer than Ontario. Listen to this, Mr. Speaker, about 40 per cent richer than Ontario and twice as rich as your neighbours· in At-lantic Canada are today.

They want to make us , under this very generous offer, the second richest Province in the whole of Canada next to Alberta, and 40 per cent richer than Ontario. • Ki.bernia development, or even two Kieernias would probably not provide enough revenue to reach the trigger for broader sharing , leaving almost all 1 - listen to this ·, Mr. Speaker - 4 leaving almos .t all offshore revenue with the provincial government.' Now how · can the hon. gentleman with a straight face, Mr. Speaker, get up and say that they are offeri~g us noth~n~ and then walk away from the negotiating table. -- -- - MR.

MORGAN : They are offering us the Nova Scotia deal:. MR. NEARY: I will come to that shortly. Listen to this paragraph, •some concerns have been expressed about the effect of the equalization formula on the Province's net gain from the offshore. How much would th .e new offshore revenues be offset by a one for one los·s of equalization payments? The equalization programme is one of the great achievements of Confederatio .n in modern times. To be fair, any province ·•·s equalization payments would reflect new additional revenues.

But we have a provision'- listen to this - 'under the current equalization formula that in the Nova Scotia agreement there is a provision that guarantees the province will receive payments to offs~t the reduction in th .eir equalization payments. These payments will decline 2769

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1039 SD - 2 MR._ NEARY: over time out provide major protection in early years. I have always been willing to include some such arrangement in a NewToundland deal to ensure that the Province had a real net increase in revenues from the offshore in the early years when it was still a 'have­ not' Province.' Now what does the hon. gentleman have to say about that? The trouble is, Mr. Speaker, that I am convinced the hon. gentleman does- not understand what the package is that is on the table. - They think it is to their advantage to stay on the attack. MR. MORGAN: Did you read our document?

MR.- NEARY: I am reading the answers that the hon. gentleman chose to ignore in the document. MR. MORGAN: How do you know what we asked for -- --- if you have not read our document? You quote Jean Chretien's statement but you will not read our statement. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is the package that was on th.e taole, this i:s the package they walked away from 1and they cannot deny that they will never get a more generous package put on the table. Mr. Mulroney will not even make a commitment. Mr. Mulroney will not even discuss the matter with the provincial government. MR. SP~ (A.yl~ardl: Orderr please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. NEAR.Y: I will have to get back at this now again shortly, Mr, Speaker, MR •. W\RSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. SOME KON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL; Mr. Speaker, having heard the han. gentleman speak a few· moments ago 1 is it any wonder that the mainlanders· think that they can walk all over Newfoundlanders? They seem by the way in which they have reacted towards 2770 -·

April 16, 19 _84 Tape No. 1039 SD - 3 MR. MARSHALL· this Province and the peopLe of this Province, to believe that the more that they _trample on Newfoundlander's 'the better Newfoundlanders like it, The han. gentleman there opposite, 2771

April 16, 1984 Tape 1040 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: by his speech, is a living example of why they think that. The han. gentleman has been called by me. varying terms, such as 'a handmaiden of Ottawa', a 'lapdog', 'a mouthpiece for Ottawa~, and the words that he uttered just a few minutes ago indicate why those descriptions are so apt and apply to him. He brings up ~..r. Chretien's statement ~ and he trumpets the generosity of the pro- -- - -- posal. He talks al:out all revenues go to Newfoundland.

Well, you know, I say over and over and over again, and it has been proven by a study made by the Nova Scotia Government and the federal government, with respect to the application of the Nova Scotian agreement, which is the only one that Mr. Chretien is offering us, that all that is to be returned in revenues is going to be the sum total of our equalization payments. The hqn. gentleman talks about fiscal capacity reaching to 110 per cent. Is not the non. gentleman aware of what is meant by fiscal capacity?

The very definition of fiscal capacity and its application to this Province constitutes proof in sum total of what we have said; Because it ~eans that when we get up to our fi:::;cal capacity, \V'e have enough fiscal capacity with the rest of the provinces of Canada, so we no longer receive equalization payments and we get nothing. So it is all related to equalization payments. As I said, Mr.

Speaker, make no wonder that the .people on the mainland and the federal government think they can walk all over this Province when you get people like the hon. gentleman getting up and making speeches like he has with respect to emoting what Mr. Chretien says as if it were the living gospel and that every word was true, without even enquiring 2772 I

April 16, 1984 Tape 1040 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: into what fiscal capacities meant and what the agreement means . I mean, why does he not address the fact that there was a study made by the Government of Canada and the Government of Nova Scotia, with respect to this very agreement th~t he now says is suitable and so qood for us, which says-that there will be a small to negligible benefit to the Province of Nova Scotia? Now, if that is the conclusion, does the han. gentleman think that the application of that agree- ment is going to bring us more than a small to negligible benefit?

How come that agreement, entered into by mistake, obviously, by the Province of Nova Scotia, now condemned by their own study and condemned by the federal government, -- __ , r is the panacea for this Province? Yet the han. gentleman continues to get up and make statements of the nature that he does • It goes to show, Mr. Speaker, that th .e han. gentleman~ as I said before, is a living example of some- body who can reside in Newfoundland but not be for Newfoundland. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we have sat here and listened to the Opposition discuss this present phase that we are in now, which is the Concurrence Debate on Social Services, and they talk from time to time of wny the procedures do not work. The han. gentlemen there opposite have not mentioned a word since this debate commenced about any of the social services departments. The social services departments are the Departments of Education, H~alth, Justic~, Culture, Recreation and Youth, and the Department of Env =i.::r..::o:.:nm= e=n=-.::t:.:·~------ AN RON. MEMBER: MR. MARSHALL: No, we are on the Eesource Committee.

No, we are on the Social Services Concurrence Debate. I can excuse the han. gentleman for thinking that we are on Resource, because 2773

April 16, 1984 Tape 1040 EC - 3 MR. MARSHALL: if you listened to members opposite, you would come to that conclusion/ because they are not talking about the departments concerned. Now, why do they not talk 2774

April 16,1984 Tape No. 1041 MR .MARSHALL: about a few things that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) indicated in his budget and debate some of the implications and aspects of it? For instance 1 in Education;since this administration has been in power,the total expenditures on education have risen from $344 million to approximately $530 million, that in five years,which is a very, very. substantial ah-1 increase in the expenditure in estimates .on Education. Now,do not the han. gentlemen there opposite 1 when we are discussing Social Services think that that is relevant? Again with respect to Education, Mr.

Speaker, why do the han. gentlemen not point out that the capital grants to the Pr~e's Denominational Education councils for this year will be increased by 25 per cent, by one quarte~ to $13,500,000. All this assistance, Mr. Speaker, provided this year and the past five years to the social programmes of this . Province, comes from a government that is forced to rely on revenues that are marginal revenues when considered in relation to the rest of Canada. Why do the han. gentlemen not refer to our hospital construction programme? Are they too embarrassed with respect to that? Here in this budget, Mi.

Speaker, we have provision for the hospital in Clarenville and the hospital on the Burin Peninsula, There is a provision of $9,400,000 for expenditures on the hospital in Clarenville alone, ~ -- -- and a ~ .$3 million for the Burin Peninsula hospital . That is the same hospital, Mr. Speaker, I might p9int ---- -- -- "' - - - - - - --- out, this government delivered to the Burin -·-·- ·-- · Peninsula which, when the member for the Strait of Bell Isle (Mr.Roberts) was Minister of Health he ___ L went to the Burin Peninsula and swore to them 2775 I

April 16,1984 Tape No. 1041 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: that it was not appropriate for them to have it and they would never have it and what have you. But it took this administration to do it. Why do the hon. gentlemen,tf they want to talk about social matters,talk about the new Arts and Culture Center for L~brador at a cost of $1.8 million. Again _in the health field, Mr. Speaker, J why would they not talk about the extension to St. Patrick's Mercy Home,to the Bella Vist~ Home in Springdale, the Lakeside Home in Gander, the Harbour Lodge in Carbonear? The Bay St.

George Senior Citizens Home will commence this year 1 ano a seventy-five bed home which will be -' commenced in Placentia. The truth of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentlemen from time to time decry the prbcedures 1of this House,but the fact of the matter is they do not know how to use this House,and they are not accquitting their obligation to the people of this Province by debating in an orderly fashion the matters that are brought up to them. It is for the government to bring up these measures,which we do, but , Mr. Speaker, you can bring horses to the water but you cannot make them drink.

And the hon. gentlemen there opposite seem to be absolutely incapable o£ doing anything but hurling, in most cases 1personal insults, getting onto areas not connected with the matter before the House, talking in generalities, saying exactly the same thing year after year, Mr. Speaker. We might just as well have had Hansard for 1979-80 tabled in this House as a representation of what the Opposition's current position on matters were because they were banalities, generalities, insults and not of any substance whatsoever, 2776

April 16,1984 Tape No. 1041 ah-3 MR .MARSHALL: as indica ted, Mr. Speaker, . by the fact that here again I say we are talking about the Social Services area. What have the Opposition got to say about " 2777

-~....::...: ~- - April 16, 1984 Tape 1042 PK - 1 MR. !t1ARSHALL: the current expenditures made and proposed by the government of this Province with respect to Justice, Health and Education, those three departments? Certainly the government of this Province would like to have the constructive views of the hon. gentlemen there opposite,but,as I said, Mr. Speaker, they do ... :not have the wherewithal, I do not think they have the intelligence, they do not have the knowledge, they do not have the capacity, they do not have the abilit~ neither have they the will, Mr.

Speaker, to get down to debate the matters that have been brought before them by this government in a constructive manner. And, Mr. Speaker, ,we want these things discussed and we want these things debated because it is only through constructive debate and constructive discussions that we can best administer the affairs of this Province. There might be eight in the Opposition, which is a sizable Opposition comparatively speaking,but I would say that the hon. gentlemen there opposite are the worst Opposition that this government and this Province has ever seen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: Because the hon •. gentlemen there opposite are not interested in issues, Mr. Speaker, they are interested,as I say 1 in banalities~ irrelevancies, in not -- discussing on point. The only thing, Mr. Speaker, that they are savage about is protecting the present administration of the federal government,which is the same administration which is precluding this Province from getting its rights to its resources which,if we had attained these rights in the same way I, as other CanadiaD provinces, we would be much better able, Mr.

Speaker, to be able to meet the crying needs in the social service area of this Province. We are very proud of this Budget, that we are able to 2778

/ ' April 16, 1984 Tape 1042 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: provide what we can for social services with in the very limited means available. But we do not for one minute indicate that we think that this is panacea and this is absolutely sufficient for the people of Newfoundland. Their services 1 particularly in the social area need,to be increased immeasurably anq that is what the han. gentlemen should address when they talk about offshore agreements, Mr. Speaker, because that was one of the elements. We said in that settlement that Mr. Chretien agreed with me on to deliver 1but it was precluded by Mr.

Lalonde 1and not very directly does he deal now with an even hand 1because he did not have the courage to come out and say that he did agree with it, but that was one of the elements, Mr. Speaker, that we agreed on. We agreed tha.t the people of this Province would get a greater share of the total government revenues from that :--- · resource until one of the elements- what was one of the elements? - our services equal to the rest of Canad's. Now what is wrong with that Mr. Speaker? Instead of acting as the han. gentlemen do 1 I suggest they address MR. WARREN: Your time is up. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! Mli. MARSHALL: - the matter in a mea~ingful manner and address the means by which we can get more revenues to satisfy those needs. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN : Mr. Speaker, the han. minister said that you can lead a horse to a well but you cannot make him drink. Witho that in mind, Mr. Speaker, I would like to call for a quorum and lead the members into this House. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order, please! There is a quorum present. Is it agreed to continue? 2779

..; _._, -·-- - :·~ _,_·_ ._;;,a.....;.._-~ -· - --- - - -'- --' --- - April 16, 1984 Tape 1042 PK - 3 SOME HON, MEMB~: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Agreed. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. ~· WARREN: Mr. Speaker, after hearing that lecture from the hon. minister - What audacity! He had :-only cl ght -or ten people in the House listening to him. What a mini ster, Mr. Speaker! - -- --- MR. DAWE: We have a better percentage .. in the Bouse than you have over there. MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, the min ister said we do not discuss the estimates. 2780

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1043 MJ - 1 MR. · WARREN: The minister also mentioned about the Arts and CUlture Center for Labrador West. This is where the government put the±r priorit ies, Mr. Speaker, in an Arts and Culture Center for Labrador West which has lost something like 2,000 people during the past year,and they go ahead and build an Arts and Culture Center in Labrador West. This is where you see the government putting their priorities. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if the minister wants to answer some questions concerning the spendings · o;f the different departments, maybe the minister can get up after I am finished and tell why the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) has soent more monev - AN HON-.-- ~~MBER: rbat has nothing to do wit~ the resource de:r;>a.rtrrents . MR. WARREN: We are discussing the Social Services Committee Estimates. In case the han. member does not know,that is what we are discussing 1 and Culture, Recreation and Youth does come under this.

And if the han. member does not realize it I should also remind him that the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth was the highest spender of the Cabinet ministers during the past year. Now, Mr. Speaker, just imagine! we were talking · about how much tra vel our Premier does 1 but last year the Minister of Culture, Recreation ,and Youth overspent his travel budget and in fact he spent more in travelling than the Premier or any other Cabinet minister. Now was that necessary in a time of restraint?

I am sure the han. the minister is going to get up and say, yes,he had to look after Sir Humphrey Gilbert and that is a good reason, that is a good answer for the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth to travel throughout the world at the government's expenses. Mr . Speaker, for some reason lately there has been a real tense feeling on that side of 2781

April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1043 MJ - 2 MR. WARREN: the House over there and I gather and it is nothing concrete or anything like that - but I gather the Premier is planning a Cabinet shuffle and it looks ! Mr. Speaker, as if one or the recommendations that I have been - - ·- making since 1979, it looks like finally ~he Premier is going to believe in it, the Premier is going to make the decision and he is going to have a ~!inister responsible for Labrador all by itself. I gather,throught the gnapevine,that there will be a Minister responsible for Labrador and let us hope, Mr.

Speaker, that th~ minister, whoever he may be, will do justice to that po ,s_ i tion. I understand 1 furthermore 1 that the second row of seats there that the hen. lady is ,-,sitting in,it -_looks like there might be a clean sweep in that anea right there and it looks like some of those ministers may have seen the light ffior the last time. ~~d, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andr~ws) 1for example,we are discussing his estimates,and it looks like next year the ~resent ~~inister of the ~nvironrn .ent may not be able to ·do too much spending in the department that he is presently associated with.

So you see, Mr. Speaker, that there is trouble, there is only eight of us and the hon. minister just sa±d that we are the worst Opposition he ever saw. Well, Mr. Speaker, 2782

April 16, 1984, Tape 1044, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: if we can keep this government on the run, then I would say we are doing our duty . Mr. Speaker, I am going to be obliged to call a quorum again if the hon. members do not stay to keep a quorum in .the House. It is ridiculous when you cannot keep thirteen members in the House, especially the member for Placentia(Mr. Patterson) • He is supposed to be the Party Whip over there and therefore he has a duty to keep his colleagues in the House when an hon. member is speaking. Mr.

Speaker, in the Department of Education,the hon. member who just spoke thinks everything is rosy. Grade XII was brought in last year by a government which was not properly prepared and what has been the result? The result has been that two or three of the high schools in this Province are over­ crowded and major capital works will have to be carried out in order to accomodate those students. Mr. Speaker, I think if we asked any of the former teachers who are here - AN HON.

MEMBER: It is a good programme. ~· WARREN: Yes, I agree with the hon. member that Grade XII is a good programme, but it should have come in due course. It came in too fast. It was too fast for the teachers, it was too fast for the students, because we do not have the infrastructure to accomodate Grade XII adequately. Now, Mr. Speaker, I suppose you can always forgive an individual who appears to be just out in left field and does not know half o-': the time really what he is talking about. All the minister was concerned about was poor opposition. 2783

-~l ...... .:.i..:..:.::.:....~:.:__- .. • ._ _.~·::~ April 16, 1984, Tape 1044, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARREN: He did not talk about the four social workers who were fired down in Labrador, he did not talk about the directives that come out from the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) to some people in the Province but not to others, he did not talk about discrimination as it applies to the people on Fogo Island which is practically in a state of emergency and, Mr. Speaker, he did not talk about the Minister of Transportation(Mr.

Dawe) not saying that he would contact Paddy Miller to ask him to try to get some food supplied to Fogo Island, he did not say he was going to get the Minister of Transportation to assist the people on Fogo Island. Where was the minister when the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan) sold the salmon fishery down the drain? MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward) : Order, please: The han. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, here is the point that I am speaking about: The Department of Transportation and the Department of Fisheries: Now, the Department of Transportation is in Government Services and the Department of Fisheries is in the Resou~ce Policy. We are now considering the estimates of Social Services. MR. TULK: No? You would not believe it. MR. MARSHALL: Now, if the han. gentleman wants to ask questions 1 there is the Question Period. They were considered in the Concurrence Debates. But what he is being, Mr.. Speaker, is completely irrelevant to the motion before this House at the present time. As I have said, Mr.

Speaker, this Opposition is the 2784

April 16, 1984, Tape 1044, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: worst Opposition that BrisProvince ha s ever seen, and if they are not going to be relevant, we will do our best to keep them relevant. SOME BON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh: M.R. WARREN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER(Aylward): To that point of order , the han . the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN : You know 1there is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. For the last two or thr ee weeks all we can get from that side of the House are ministers getting up and talking about everything the gov ernment does.

I was just emphasizing the fact for the han. minister that the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe) did not come to the assistance of the people of Fogo, and the same thing applied to 2785

-- -·- . . , , ... - ----·-· -- '~ April 16, 1~84 Tape 1045 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) for the salmon fishermen~ he sold them down the drain. That is why there is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. .t-1..R. MORGAN : ~m. SJ'FAKER (RU'S:S'eH): to that point of order. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order • The hon. the .Minister of Fisheries, It is very interesting with the kinds of phone calls I am getting from the Labrador Coast, which the hon. gentleman represents, saying, 'Keep up the fight, Mr. Morgan! Keep after that federal man up there, Mr.

De Bane, because he is taking away our salmon fishery. Our member will not say a word about it.' That is the quote today by phone. That is the quote: 'Our member will not fight for us against Ottawa, and we are mad about that. But, Mr. Morgan, we are counting on you,and the union and Mr. Cashin,to keep on fighting Mr. De Bane and the policy on Atlantic salmon because it is going to hurt our fishermen along the Coast down here . ' That is the is sue. So , Mr. Speaker, when the member stands up and says we are giving away our , salmon and we cannot get service to Fogo Island, both are federal issues.

We cannot get an icebreaker to get the ice broken up to get the boat back and forth to Fogo Island, a federal matter, and the salmon issue, a federal matter. So why does not the hon. gentleman have the courage of his convictions and stand up and condemn or try to influence his own colleagues in Ottawa with the bad policies they have in place in Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, I ,,,ould remind hon. members that we are supposed to he debating the Concurrence motion on the Social Services Committee. Members should be as relevant as possible to that motion. 2786

April 16, 1984 Tape 1045 EC - 2_ MR. SPEAKER (Russell ): The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains has one minute left. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Instead of continuing in the debate, I have a point of order, which is that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) just made an unfounded and incorrect statement, Mr. Speaker, concerningthe member for a district in Labrador. I ask the minister either to withdraw that statement or confirm for the House what he just said, because, Mr. Speaker, it is a downriqht - I will not say 'lie', but it is a downright int~.

It is downright untrue what the minister just said. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: 1'-ffi. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker. The hon. the ~~nister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I did not say anything that was untrue - 'in truth' as the hon. gentleman referred to it- anything untrue about the hon. gentleman at all; I merely said that I am getting calls from the Labrador Coast, from areas which the hon. gentleman repre­ sents, and they are saying, 'Keep up the fight!' MR . . WARREN: liar! SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: That is not true! You are a Oh, oh!

That will have to be withdrawn, Order, please! Order, please! I have to ask the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains to withdraw that . statement . MR. WARREN: I withdra,; the truth . MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. cneaker, all I am saying is that these issues result from federal govern- ment policies in both cases, the lack of ice breaking 2787

April 16, 1984 Tape 1045 EC - 3 MR. MORGAN: services and facilities here in the Province, that is one issue, a policy of the federal government;and the policy on Atlantic salmon is a federal policy, And all I say to the hen. gentleman 1again 1is that I am getting these calls from his district, in fact I am getting them from all over the Province4 I met with scores of fishermen along the South Coast all weekend. I was not home all weekend and, of course, I was fortunate not to be home because there was no power on in my home anyway. I was on the South Coast all weekend, travelling the whole coastline. MR.

TOBIN: The first time ever they have seen a Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: The first time ever they saw a Minister of Fisheries. And they were glad to see me and my colleagues with me from the House. They all said, 'Keep up the fight! Keep the pressure on the federal government, they have bad policies!' MR. WARREN ·Vhat about the point of; order? MR. MORGAN: ltt.

Speaker, the point of order that I am addressing is that there was nothing said that was untrue, nothing said that was malicious or untrue about the hen. gentlema~ I am merely quoting the,facts, and the facts are that fishermen around the Province, including those in his own district, are saying to me, 'Keep up the fight to try to condemn that bad policy from Ottawa.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: bh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The Chair has heard enough argument on that point of order. It is not 1 indeed,a point of order but a difference of opinion between two hen. members. -2788

--·- --·· April 16, 1984 Tape 1045 EC - 4 $. .. TOBIN:· Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the member for Burin - Placentia West. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker . Hear, hear! Thank you very much, I believe, Mr. Speaker, that at this point, we are involved in the Government Services Estimates, including some very. important departments as they relate to the Province of Newfoundland, particularly rural Newfoundland, ~vhich so many of us sitting on this side of the House are proud to represent. 2789

.. . -, ., - ~ .. -· ~ .. -··- -------------·-· - - ---~ : . ~~:·..:.··.:..· L......:...-- April 16, 1984 Tape No. 1046 SD - 1 MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, we have heard some of the comments coming from the hon. member opposite a few moments ago • I see he is one of those people who likes to make his attack on the various ministers and then hide when the rebuttle or the reaction is about to be implemented. But I can say that I had the honour this weekend 1 along with my colleague for Fortune- Hermitage (~r. Stewart) 1 to travel with the Minister of Fisheries (.Mr. Morgan) from Friday, Mr.

Speaker, untie late yesterday evening, and I can say to this hon. House that I was indeed proud to be a member of the Progressive Conservative Party and to be ~ssociated with such a gentleman as the hon. Minister of Fisheries. SOME" HON". MEMBE'R;S: H.ear, hear. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, we left here on Friday and we ha.d meetin9's· •. wi.th. the Fisheries· Committee in Baine Harbour, in Rushoon, in Red Harbour. Saturday, Mr. Speaker, we were down in Monkstown, Petite Fort and Southeas·t Bight 1 and it was the fi'rst time, Mr. Speaker, that the people in these communities MR. HISCOCK~ A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (RUs'sel·lj; Order, please~· The hon. member for Eagle River on a point of order. . MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, we are supposed to be discussing, if I understood the President of Council (Mr. MaJ::shall) correctly, the Concurrence M:>tion for the Governnent services camli.ttee Services Committee ancihere is the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) getting up and talking about the trip that the Minist.er of Fisheries made. I find it not in keeping with the rules.

And I am also a little bit amazed that th.e member and the provincial Minister of Fisheries can say, this is the first time they have had a Minister of Fisheries , down in that area After thirteen yea~s 1 this administration is admitting they never had a Minister of Fisheries visit 2790 I'

April 16, 19.84 Tape No. 1046 SD - 2 MR. HISCOCK: .that area. It is ridiculous. Keep to the point on the estimates of the Q:weEiliiEilt Services Carmittee. MR. MORGAN: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER -CRUsse'i-1) : To the point of order, the hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if- the hon. gentlemc._1 who is now on a point' of order >~ould have, given the hon. gentleman, mv colleague, the time to carry on Nith what he was trying to say it was not because the Minister of Fisheries ,.,ent in all was talked about was fisheries. We talked about every aspect of their communities· because most of them .are isolat