Manitoba Hansard — 14 May 2002 (Sitting 31, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 31 - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 14, 2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LA THLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La V erendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

1403 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 14,2002 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Public Accounts Second Report Mr. Edward Helwer (Cha irperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Public Accounts. Madam Clerk {Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents the fo llowing as its Second Report.

Meetings: Your committee met on Monday, May 13, 2002, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building. Matters Under Consideration: Provincial Auditor's Report on Value fo r Money Audits fo r the period ending Autumn 1997 Provincial Auditor's Report on Value fo r Money Audits fo r the period ending Spring 1998 Provin cial Auditor's Report on Value fo r Money Audits fo r the period ending Summer 1999 Provin cial Auditor's Report on Value fo r Money Audits for the period ending June 2000 Committee Membership: Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting: Mr. Struthers fo r Hon. Mr. Mackintosh Mr.

Derkach fo r Mr. Laurendeau Officials Speaking on Record: Mr. Jon Sing leton, Auditor General of Manitoba Reports Considered but not Adopted: Your committee commenced consi deration of the Provincial Auditor's Report on Value for Money Audits for the period ending June 2000, but did not adopt the report.

Reports Considered and Adopted: Your committee cons idered: Provincial Auditor's Report on Value for Money Audits fo r the period ending Autumn 1997 Provi ncial Auditor's Report on Value fo r Money Audits for the period ending Spring 1998 Provincial Auditor's Report on Value fo r Money Audits fo r the period ending Summer 1999 and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, I move, second ed by the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner), that the report of the com mittee be r-eceived. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Law Amendments Fourth Report Mr.

Doug Martindale (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Fourth Report of the Comm1ttee on Law Amendme nts. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Law Amendm ents presents the following as its Fourth Report- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

1404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2002 Your Standing Committee on Law Amendment s presents the fo llowing as its Fourth Report. Meetings: Your committee met on the fo llowing occasions: Tuesday, May 7, 2002, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building Monday, May 13, 2002, at 10 a.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building Matters Under Consideration: Bill 6-The Fortified Buildings Act/Loi sur les batimen ts fo rtifies Membership Resignations I Elections: At the May 13, 2002 meeting, Mr. Martindale was elected as Chairperson. At the May 13, 2002 meeting, Mr.

Schellen berg was elected as Vice-Chairperson. Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting held on May 13, 2002: Mrs. Smith (Fort Garry) fo r Mr. Cummin gs Mr. Laurendeau fo r Mr. Hawranik Mr. Schuler fo r Mr. Maguire Mr. Martindale fo r Mr. Santos Han . Mr. Mackintosh fo r Han. Mr. Chomiak Mr. Schel/enber gf or Ms. Korzeniowski Mr. Aglugub fo r Han. Mr. Ashton Mr. Nevakshonoff fo r Mr. Jenni ssen Mr. Hawranikf or Mr.

Faurschou Bills Considered and Reported: Bill 6-The Fortified Buildings Act/Loi sur les batimen ts fo rtifies Your committee agreed to report this bill with the fo llowing amendment: THAT clause 6(J)(

a) be amend ed by adding "or the property on which the building is located" after "from the building". Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, move, seconded by the honourable Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. *( 13 :35) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 16-The Class Proceedings Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Just ice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith), that leave be given to introduce Bill 16 , The Class Pro ceedings Act, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh : A class proceeding is a court claim brought on behalf of a group of persons by one person. This bill establishes the rules and procedures for class action proceedings in Manitoba. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today the students who will be con ducting tours of the Manitoba Legislative Building this summer. They are Jennif er Bloom, Jean-Daniel Boulet, Jane Conly, Jennif er Skerritt.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Grade 3 Diagnostic Assessments Results Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, can the Premier share with the House the results of the 2001 Grade 3 diagnostic assessments?

May 14,2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1405 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, it has been a couple of years since my own daughter went through Grade 3 diagnostic assessments, but I do know, in discussing this just recently with the Grade 3 teachers at River East School Division, that the recommendations to proceed with the new testing system last year had some bumps. They informed me the testing system is going much better for parents, students and educators this year. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I specifically was asking the Premier for the results of the Grade 3 diagnostic testing.

I would like to share with the First Minister that the results range from a high of 68 percent in terms of Grade 3 students meeting expectations when it comes to reading and interpreting graphs. However, on the other hand, only 42 percent of Grade 3 students are meeting expectations when it comes to recalling addition and subtraction to 10. I would like to note that these figures and terms come directly from the minister's own document. Has the Premier identified the cause of why only 42 percent of Grade 3 students are meeting the Doer govemment's expectations to add and subtract to 1 0? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Indeed, we are now in the middle of our mandate. We changed policy from an end-of-year standards test imposed upon children who still believed in Santa Claus, which was the preferred policy by members opposite. We-[interjection } Mr. Speaker, the members opposite make my point in this. * (13:40) Mr. Speaker, the Grade 3 assessment, as the First Minister just stated, has been received very, very well by parents who are getting meaningful information on a wide range of competencies for their children.

The report that the Leader of the Opposition refers to does point out that there is considerable work required to ensure that- Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I am shocked at that answer. This is about the children of Manitoba. It is about their ability to have a sense of reading and writing and understanding the basic funda mentals of arithmetic. This first Minister ran in the last election on the Grade 3 guarantee.

What specific steps has the Premier taken to address the fact that only 42 percent of Grade 3 students are meeting expectations when it comes to adding and subtracting to I 0? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, those Grade 3 students would have gone through a couple of years of underfunding in education. The members opposite read the report last week on the classroom size and composition and mentioned that 98 percent of the students in Manitoba from K to 6 are having classroom sizes under 30. It also identifies challenges for early childhood development in that report, based on composi tion and size.

In the last election campaign, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees in a resolution they passed, the Manitoba Teachers' Society, many teachers' advisory groups, recommended to replace the year-end test with a prior Sep tember period diagnostic test to be able to identify the areas that children had to learn during the Grade 3 year. The Tories were in one direction. The school trustees, the teachers, the parents groups, the Liberals and the NDP believed in having a test for purposes of teaching.

I think if the member opposite compares other national tests with kids in math, just recently our children did very well in some of the math tests. I think, obviously, we want to ensure that their quality of education increases every year, the basics increase every year when we continue to reinvest in education. A previous government that was minus two, minus two, zero, minus two in funding to edu cation reaped a lot, which unfortunately we are trying to deal with today Manitoba Hydro Financial Statements Mr. John Loewen {Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, on April 30, more than a week after his Budget, the Minister of Finance tabled the nine-month

1406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14,2002 interim financial report of Manitoba Hydro in this House, and nowhere in that report was there any mention that the Doer government was going to raid Hydro to cover last year's operating deficit to the tune of $288 million. Why does the Minister of Finance table a report in this House which is in clear contradiction of the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants' generally accepted accounting principles which clearly identify in

section 17( 51)? I quote: Interim financial statements should disclose events subsequent to the end of the interim period that have not been reflected in the financial statements for the interim period. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that all announce ments related to the Budget are made on Budget day in this Legislature. We do not make any announcements anywhere in the wider govern ment entity outside of the Budget day.

Tax decisions with respect to tobacco, transfer decisions with respect to Crown corporations, all tax-related matters or transfer-related matters or many of the new program initiatives are always announced on Budget day. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Finance Minister the same question. Why is the Minister of Finance compromising the integ rity of a Crown corporation and its management by introducing into this Legislature documents that do not meet ClCA standards? * (13:45) Mr. Selinger: Once again, all decisions with respect to the Budget and revenues are made and announced on Budget day.

It would be highly improper for anybody to tell a Crown corpo ration to change their third quarter financial statement based on information that they did not have available to them. That is a decision that is made by Cabinet and announced on Budget day. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Finance so desperate to hide the fact that he is short $150 million to balance last year's budget that he would sign off on financial statements for Manitoba Hydro, that puts Hydro in the same category as Enron and Global Crossing? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to remind all honourable members when the Speaker rises that all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence, and also remind all honourable members when there are disruptions going on the clock is still running. You are losing time of Question Period. Mr. Selinger: Once again, announcements with respect to the Budget are made on Budget day, no sooner, no later. I would just remind the member opposite the last time he made out landish statements with respect to the Crocus Fund, it was in the middle of their RSP selling season. Mr.

Speaker, we are very close to coming to a Hydro Bond issue. I would hope the member opposite would not make any outlandish state ments which cannot be substantiated, which would once again harm the interests of a very valuable Crown corporation which serves all the people of Manitoba. You should get your facts straight before you make these kinds of accusations. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, the Doer government in their recent Budget made the decision to raid Manitoba Hydro of $288 million to support their spending problem.

On May 7 in Estimates, the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro, also the Finance Minister, admitted that Manitoba Hydro currently has debt investments maturing, and I quote: In the order of $280 million. I ask the Minister of Hydro: Is it not coincidental that Manitoba Hydro happens to be going back to raise money from the Manitoba public right now for roughly the same amount of money that he had to raid in order to pay for the Doer government's spending problem? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I am surprised the member would try to connect together unrelated events.

Hydro raises money in the marketplace on an annual basis to provide for their capital borrowing program. There are several issues of bonds coming due in the Manitoba marketplace this year. The Hydro Bond issue will provide -

May 14, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1407 them a very good opportunity to roll that money over and invest it in a secure instrument that will provide them with a good rate of return, which is not yet am1ounced. It was the same program we had launched last year. We will be launching a similar pro gram this year. I can tell all Manitobans that an investment in a Hydro Bond is a secure invest ment with a healthy rate of return which allows them to invest in the future prosperity of Manitoba. Mrs. Stefanson : Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister of Finance: Is there a financial statement that has been produced by Manitoba Hydro and been given to the Manitoba Securities Commission that accurately reflects the $15 0 million the Govermnent has conm1itted to take out of Mani toba Hydro in order to balance !ast year's provincial Budget? * (13:50) Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the accountability of Manitoba Hydro is through the Crown Corps Council and to the Legislature through the minister.

All the financial statements that are produced by Manitoba Hydro are tabled in this Legislature in a timely fashion, and the Standing Committee on Public Utilities, which is a stand ing committee of this Legislature, convenes every spring with a full opportunity to review all this inforn1ation. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister responsible for Hydro, also the Finance Minister: Does he not feel it is imperative for Manitobans who are buying this new Hydro Bond issue right now to know the true financial position of Manitoba Hydro, or do they want to hide the fact that they had to take $150 million from Mani toba Hydro last year in order to balance last year's provincial Budget? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I am extremely surprised by this line of questioning.

One thing the members opposite I am sure know is the debt of Manitoba Hydro is fully guaranteed by the Crown, in other words, the Government of Manitoba, for which we charge a debt guarantee fee. The purchase of a Manitoba Hydro Bond is one of the most secure investments that any Manitoban can make. Man itoba Hydro Export Sales Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Manitoba Hydro is saying today they will take a financial hit due to low water levels which will result in reduced export sales. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Hydro: Who is right?

The experts at Manitoba Hydro who say sales will go down, or the minister who says otherwise and who politically has tied his excessive spending habits to the sale of Manitoba Hydro exports? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): The president and CEO of Hydro has stated: It is premature to make changes in our integrated financial forecast. It is too early to tell what spring rains will bring. We are all aware that we had some significant precipitation in the last lD days. When it comes to spending, we have the third-lowest per capita spending in the country. Rate Increase Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): My supplementary question to the Minister respon sible for Hydro, who is also the Minister of Finance, the minister that has drained the Hydro kitty dry: Will he now admit to Manitobans that hydro rates will go up as a result of him draining and raiding Manitoba Hydro? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): have read this information into the record, but for gr eater certainty I should point out: Mr.

Speaker, in 1997, the profit forecast was $49 million, the actual was $1()1 million; in '98, the profit forecast was again $49 million, the actual was $111 million; in 1999, the profit forecast was about $52 minion, the actual was $100 million; in the year 2000, the profit forecast was $97 million, the actual was $152 million; and for the year 2001, the profit forecast was $1l 6 million, the actual was $270 million. We have seen surplus profits in excess of forecasts of $371 million in the last five years. Of that, we are taking $150 million from last year's ex�essive profits in order to make sure

1408 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14,2002 that the services that Manitobans need and want are protected in this Budget. Standing Committee Review Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Since the revenues from export sales back in 1987 when we had a drought plununeted from $113 milJion in 1987 to $3 I miiiion in I 989, wilJ the Minister of Hydnrhe indicated that Public Utilities and Natural Resources Conunittee would be convened. WilJ he give us a date for that committee to telJ Manitobans that hydro rates wilJ not go up, that they will be frozen?

That kind of information should be provided, if the Minister of Hydro, Minister of Finance can be trusted. *(13:55) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Financ e): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is always ready to answer questions on financial matters in the Legislature as is the Minister of Hydro. I am currently in Estimates and available for ques tions every day. I am also currently in the Public Accounts Committee. We have been meeting for the last two weeks.

As soon as we get on with the business of dealing with the Finance Estimates I wilJ be ready to deal with the Public Utilities Committee of the Legislature. I show up at work every day to answer your questions. You have to go home to do your homework to dream up a new question to ask, which has already been answered. Chiropractic Care Coverage Reduction Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): The Doer government's decision to totalJy eliminate chiropractic coverage for children under the age of I 9 certainly seems to show a bias against children receiving chiropractic care.

I would like to ask this Minister of Health on what he based his decision to totally eliminate coverage for children under I9. Where is the evidence to support that decision? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): As I indicated on previous occasions in this House and publicly, there were a number of very difficult decisions we had to make during the course of the Budget. As the Premier (Mr. Doer) indicated on several occasions, chiropractic ser vices are not covered under the Canada Health Act. It is one of the things we do in Manitoba and cover.

It is one of the many things we do to extend health care, and we are looking towards the federal government to help us out in this regard. In regard to the specific issue, I note that in I 996 the previous government reduced coverage to all Manitobans from I5 to I2 visits including women and children, et cetera. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this Minister of Health why he is refusing to listen to the thousands of parents that are cur rently faxing him and asking him to not drop chiropractic coverage for their children. He is running around saying they are listening to people.

His consultations are nothing short of a sham. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite talks about listening to the public. We listened to the public and not to members of the Opposition when we brought back the nurses diploma program. We listened to the public and expanded the medical college when members opposite cut the medical college. We listened to the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne 4I 7: Answers to questions should be as brief as pos sible, deal with the matter raised and not pro voke debate. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: The member, in her long

preamble, mentioned the fact about consultations and talked about listening to the thousands and thousands of Manitobans who talk to us regu larly and responding to their wishes and needs in terms of balancing. I was simply pointing out to

May 14,2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1409 the member that she cannot continue, as she does, to pick single issues to be in .contradiction over and over again and think they have any credibility. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would like to take this oppor tunity to remind all honourable ministers that when answering a question to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: I ask the honourable Minister of Health to conclude his conm1ents, please. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, when we go through the course of the Estimates, I would be happy to explain to the member all of the expanded enhanced programs that have im proved in the last two and a half years as a result of listening to what the public has to say. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Health be prepared today to reverse his wrong-headed decision and reinstate chiro practic coverage for children? * (14:00) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of budgetary decisions that were made during the course of the Budget that we are still debating, including expanded enhanced pro grams right across the field, which I note members opposite voted against. We continue to look at the best ways to utilize not only the health resources that are entrusted to us, but the tax dollars that go together with those. We will continue to make decisions based on the best needs and requirements of all Manit-obans. Winn ipeg Casinos Minister's Comments Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, last week the Minister responsible for Manitoba Lotteries told this House that the mechanical certification of the McPhillips Street Station and Club Regent casinos is being with held related to litigation over a fee dispute, which is between two companies, and that the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation has nothing whatsoever to do with it. However, legal docu ments make it very ciear that the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation has been a party to this legal dispute since June of 2001, and that the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation is thus very intimately involved in this issue.

The minister was clearly in error in making her statements of May 6, and I would ask the minister to confess her error and to apologize to the Legislature for providing inaccurate infor mation. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lot teries Corporation Act): As I have repeatedly told the Legislature, both McPhillips Street Station and the Regent Street casinos are in full compliance with all the obligations they need to meet under the by-laws of the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Gerrard: As the minister knows, we still do not have proper mechanical certification.

I ask the minister to concede that it is not only wrong but somewhat preposterous to indicate that the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, which owns and operates the McPhillips Street Station and Club Regent casinos, is not in any way involved in ensuring the proper certification and operation of the ventilation systems for these cas mos. Ms. McGifford: The only preposterous thing in the House is the line of questioning I am hearing from the member opposite, but I will take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to inform the House of some very good news from Lotteries.

I know the member opposite was very concerned about the quality of air. I learned this morning that Lotteries has undertaken a comprehensive air quality investigation. This is despite the fact that I can assure you the air quality systems are operating effectively. However, to ensure the very best for our customers and employees, we have undertaken this task and I am pleased to inforn1 the House of this. Mr. Gerrard: At last a more reasonable answer from the minister.

I thank the minister for clarifying that she is, in fact, making some progress in addressing and looking at these important issues which need to be attended to.

1410 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2002 My supplementary to the minister then, who told me at the back of the Legislature one day that she thought my questions were silly. I would ask the minister to admit it is not the questions but rather the minister's answers which up to this last one were kind of silly. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Advanced Education. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Minister of Advanced Education has the floor. Ms.

McGifford: I want to return the compli ment and thank the member for recognizing the good work I am doing and that the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation is doing. Stevenson Aviation Training Centre Opening Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. Ja mes): Yester day, Red River College opened the Stevenson Aviation and Aerospace Training Centre ad jacent to Winnipeg International Airport. The $7.4 million contributed by the provincial and federal governments was instrumental in de veloping this centre.

Could the Minister of Education, Training and Youth please comment on the importance of the Stevenson Aviation and Aerospace Training Centre? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): I am very pleased to respond to the question put by the Member for St. James. The aviation aerospace industry in Manitoba is the third-largest in Canada, and we have been very privileged to work with industry very closely over the last two and a half years to develop this industry which provides high skilled, high-tech, high-paying jobs for young Manitobans.

The partnership has evolved between our education communities and Red River com munity college, as well as the universities and other programs, Mr. Speaker, but the partnership that has evolved between government, industry and our education communities in this province over the last two and a half years has left us in very, very good stead for providing young Manitobans with opportunities for the future in high-skilled, high-tech, high-paying jobs, the kind of employment and the kind of economic development this Government wants to develop for Manitoba. Hells Angels President Bail Conditions Mrs.

Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Yesterday in this House, Mr. Speaker, the Attorney General stated that the role of the Doer government was to set policies concerning gang activity. Is it the Doer government policy to give the Hells Angels president the green light to fly to Spain for an organized crime conference? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Jus tice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the member again is mistaken.

Yesterday, she stood up and urged the Attorney General to get involved in a prosecution which could seriously risk a mistrial and is absolutely bewildering because, of course, the next day, if I interfered, they would be in here demanding my resig nation. The member should check the record. This Government, and the Attorney General in parti cular, does have responsibility for general policy direction in the area of prosecutions. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, can the minister con firm whether his Crown attorney supported this bail exemption for the president of the Hells Angels? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I certainly have some concern about what I read in a media report on this matter. As a result of what I had read and my concern recognizing that organized crime must be and indeed is a significant priority for the justice system, I have asked of the depart ment the full transcript which I am awaiting. I have asked for the judge's remarks and the order made. I have also asked for all of the back ground materials in terms of the conditions. I think it is important, unlike the members opposite, to have full information on this matter

May 14,2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1411 before I draw any conclusions, because I do notice the member opposite issued a press release which appears to be based solely on what is reported and is not accurate. Mrs. Smith : Mr. Speaker, did the Crown attorney, who is under this minister's watch, abide by the Doer governme nt policy, and would the Attorney General please be accurate on this matter? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that there be full information available in terms of what consultations took place, and that is further to my earlier remarks.

That is why it is important there be the full infom1ation and we then proceed from there. My understanding is that this individual had been released at an earlier time, there was some change of the conditions of release, and there had been consultations that took place before that matter was dealt with in the court. Mr. Speaker, if the members opposite indeed are concerned about Hells Angels and organized crime in this province, I think they would have sent a signal to Manitobans that it is a priority by dealing with legislation before Christmas in respect to fortified buildings. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Garry, on a new question. Mrs. Smith: On a new question. Can the Attorney General confirm that the conditions, the former bail conditions, of this individual were that he was not to consort in any way with other Hells Angels gang members? * (14: 10) Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, that is part of the information that is important to consider in light of the full context of the matter. Those conditions, I understand, were arrived at as a result of the roles of police and a magistrate. I am not aware of an early involvement of our department in setting those conditions.

I may be corrected, but I think it is important to have full information. I think that, quite frankly, contrary to the members opposite, it would not be responsible to jump to conclusions. Mrs. Smith: After examining all the evidence, and if the evidence is dear that the Hells Angels president was refrained from consorting with gang members, will the Attorney General then do his duty and refuse to allow the Hells Angels president to fly to Spain? Mr.

Mackintosh: There is a weB-known convention of the Legislature, the subjudice con vention, which applies in particular with regard to current criminal proceedings that are ongoing. Again, we have the second question the second day in a row asking the Attorney General to become a prosecutor and get involved in an individual case. I think what is important is justice in this province, not mistrials. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Gimli. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Gimli has the floor. Workers Compensation Rate Increase Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): The Workers Compensation Board has confirmed that they will be raising premiums in Manitoba by 11.4 percent over the next five years, starting July 1. This rate increase will be the first increase of the average rate in more than 10 years and follows reductions that took place under the former government in 1997, in 1998 and in 1999. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board tell Manitoba businesses why administrative expen ses at the Workers Compensation Board in creased 5. 1 percent in the year 200 1 when the Workers Compensation Board had a $2.4-mil lion operating deficit last year? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister charged with the administration of The Workers Compen sation Act): The workers compensation rates for employers who are covered by workers compen sation are, if not the lowest, certainly the first- or second-lowest in the country, even taking into

1412 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14,2002 account the increase that will take place starting in July of this year. Mr. Helwer: Can the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board explain to Manitoba business how an 11.4% increase in premiums, which may lead to possible layoffs, is making our businesses more competitive? Ms. Ba rrett: The Workers Compensation five-year plan is exactly that. It is a projection over the next five years, and we will know year after year, year upon year, what actually does happen. Our workers compensation rates are the lowest in the country at this point.

The invest ment return has been a problem for all workers compensation boards across North America as it has for virtually every sector of the economy as a result of the general downturn that we experi enced last year, and it was exacerbated by the terrible events of September 11 . The Workers Compensation Board has an admirable record of keeping rates as low as they possibly can, and a very low administrative cost structure as well. Mr.

Helwer: Can the minister tell employers in Manitoba what other measures the Workers Compensation Board will take in addition to tagging them with an 11.4% rate increase, the first increase in more than a decade, to improve the Workers Compensation Board's financial situation? Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, the Workers Com pensation Board has always and will continue to work as effectively as they possibly can to ensure the coverage is as clear as it can be, that it is as complete as it can be and that the adminis trative costs are as low as they can be to ensure that the employers of the province of Manitoba who are covered by the Workers Compensation Board pay as reasonable rates as they possibly can and continue to be very competitive, the best in the country, coverage for workers compen sation. Bill 14 Minister's Comments-Symmetry Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Last week the Minister of Education indicated that Bill 14 brought symmetry between the Public Utilities Board, the Municipal Board and the Public Schools Finance Board. Can the minister explain what he meant by that statement, as it was a term he used no less than 15 times out in the hallway? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, our approach in limiting appeals to the courts is mirrored in other provincial legislation that already exists. This is not unprecedented in the least.

We are in this province reducing the number of school divisions by 33 percent. We are reducing the number of trustees by over 100. Those resources are resources that are going into the classrooms of the province. We believe in the transference of resources from the board room to the classroom. Mr. Gilleshammer: I would ask the minister to focus on the word "symmetry" and explain what the need is to find this symmetry between the Public Schools Finance Board and the Public Utilities Board. Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table for the House a Jetter to me from the Brandon Chamber of Commerce, if I might. Mr. Speaker, I will read into the record on behalf of the Brandon Chamber of Commerce: Dear Mr. Caldwell: On behalf of the Brandon Chamber of Commerce, I would like to extend our congratulations on your Government's im plementation of change to provincial school boards. The amalgamation of school boards from 57 to 37- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. The honourable minister has already tabled the letter. I do not believe it is necessary for him to read it on the record.

May 14,2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1413 Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, on the same point of order. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I am tabling a letter for the information of the House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would like to once more remind all honourable ministers, Beauchesne 417: An swers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised, and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr.

Speaker: I would ask the honourable minister to conclude his comments. Mr. Caldwell: As I was saying, the amalga mation of school boards from 57 to 37 sends a clear message that the focus in the education sector should be on education and not adminis tration. We on this side agree with the chamber of commerce. Point of Order Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, Beau chesne 417, you have already read it to the member. How many times do we have to allow this member to abuse the rules of this House? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Edu cation, Training and Youth, on the same point of order. Mr.

Caldwell: l think we are in symmetry with the Chamber and the people of Manitoba on this issue. * (14:20) Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he has a point of order. I would ask the honourable minister to please deal with the matter that was raised. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Edu cation has about eight seconds, if he wishes to -continue. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Gilleshammer: We on this side are perplexed that the minister is rather shy about talking about synunetry here.

I would like to ask him what is the relationship between the Public Schools Finance Board and the Public Utilities Board, and why there is a need for symmetry there. Mr. Caldwell: l think broadly it is good public policy to have symmetry across bills, but more importantly on this issue- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: I think that it makes perfect sense to have an environment where things are work ing in harmony.

My conunents about the industry partnerships that were made earlier in relation to the aerospace sector in Manitoba shows that this Govenunent is very interested in working with, in ham1ony with and in symmetry with those in the public who are insisting in fact that we redirect resources from boardrooms to classrooms. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Ed Van Hornbeck Mrs. Myrna Driedger {Charleswood): would like to congratulate Ed Van Humbeck, president of Vansco Electronics, on receiving the first annual Canadian Manufacturers and Export ers Award for 2002.

Chosen for his contribution to the economic health and vibrancy of Manitoba's economy, Ed, along with his wife, Terry, began a small business in the basement of their Charleswood home in 1978. Vansco Electronics has now grown into an international su-ccess, employing over 700 employees worldwide, with sales in the

1414 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14,2002 $100-million range. Vansco's products, which include hundreds of electronic components used in agricultural, transportation and construction equipment, now serve end users on every continent except Antarctica. Ed Van H umbeck serves as chairman of the board, president and visionary behind Vansco, which has grown by over 30 percent each year, exports more than 85 percent of its products to foreign markets and creates a solid job market for university and technical school graduates. The first annual CME Excellence A ward was presented to Mr.

Van Humbeck at a gala dinner at the Radisson Suite Airport Hotel on April II , 2002. It is people like Mr. Van Humbeck who help to make Manitoba a better place to live. It is people like him who exemplify the entre preneurial spirit that has played a pivotal role in developing Manitoba's economy. It is people like him who have contributed to the diversification of our economy. On behalf of all the members of this House and the residents of Charleswood, I would like to congratulate Mr. Van Humbeck for a truly out standing accomplishment, and wish him many more years of success. Titanic: The Musical Mr.

Gerard Jenni ssen (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my wife, Lisa, and I were privileged to attend the performance of a musical at the R.H. Channing Auditorium in Flin Flon last Saturday. Titanic: The Musical was presented by the Flin Flon Community Choir in association with the Flin Flon Arts Council and Manitoba Cul ture, Heritage and Tourism. The musical was indeed a superior piece of artistic endeavour. Putting on this musical took an enormous amount of dedication, perseverance and cre ativity. Remember, the Flin Flon Community Choir consists of approximately I20 members. The cast of the musical involved 66 people.

I can only imagine how challenging it must be to organize and co-ordinate such a large group of people. The musical gave us a glimpse of society in 1912. It was a beautiful blend of music, colour, pageantry, dance and artistic design. The costuming, lighting, set design and chore ography were stunning. As well, there were some amazing solo performances. The plot involved several poignant stories of people of different classes caught in moments of crisis. Some of the stories reflected the obvious class differences of the pre-World War I era.

The re-enactment of the crash of the Titanic was so realistic the audience reacted as if they were on the ship. The talented group of volunteers who put on such a dazzling performance for our enjoyment deserve a very special thank you. Titanic: The Musical was a great hit. Mr. Speaker, although I cannot name all involved, I would particularly like to thank director Crystal Kolt, and assistant directors Karen O'Brien, Mark Kolt, and Brad McDougall. Once again, I thank all participants and sponsors who made Titanic: The Musical such a splendid success. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Whitemouth Municipality Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I personally congratulate the Rural Municipality of Whitemouth, including the reeve, the councillors and all residents of that municipality, in their quest to help their com munity grow and prosper. Whitemouth is a particularly important community to me. I was born in Whitemouth; my wife, Pamela, was born in Whitemouth, and both of us graduated from Whitemouth School. When we attended school in Whitemouth, the population of the rural municipality was significantly higher than it is today.

There has been a significant loss of population due to a significant loss of jobs in the municipality. Atomic Energy of Canada Limited is in the process of withdrawing all of its operations in Pinawa and has eliminated more than 1000 jobs within the last few years. Many of the residents of the Rural Municipality of Whitemouth were employed with AECL. -

May 14,2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1415 The backbone of the economy of the Rural Municipality of Whitemouth is agriculture. More people are employed in the R.M. of Whitemouth in the agriculture industry than any other single industry there. Because of the economies of scale, the number of people employed in the agricultural industry has drastically decreased. These two factors significantly decreased the population in the R.M. of Whitemouth. Once population decreases so do the services offered to its residents.

A clear example of the decrease in services in the R.M. of Whitemouth is the conversion of the once healthy Whitemouth Hospital into a long-term care facility. The conununity is very concemed about this development. An acute care facility is required for the area to ensure that residents receive emergency room service and that acute care beds are available so that residents can stay in their community when receiving health care. The entrepreneurs of the R.M. of White mouth are working hard to ensure that more employment is created to stop the loss of popu lation.

The Dueck's Mechanical business is expanding with a huge building to store materi als used to construct the variety of items manufactured by this growing business. La V em Dueck and his wife, Marilee, began the business 12 years ago. The business manufactures many steel products that are shipped across North America. Dueck's Mechanical now employs 16 workers and plans to expand its operations, which will only increase employment in the area. Another recent business in the area is Neva Fam1s, a business owned by Darren and Janice Barkman. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired.

Mother's Day Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, two days ago most of us celebrated a special day. Mother's Day has become part of our culture, however, many people probably do not know the history of Mother's Day. It is actually a day for peace. Mother's Day was originally celebrated as a rallying cry for moiliers who lost husbands and sons in the U.S. Civil War. It was a renunciation of war and militarism and indeed even patriarchy. In 1870, the Mother's Day proclamation by Julia Ward said: Arise all women who have hearts.

Say firmly: We women of one country wiii be too tender of those of another to allow our -sons to be trained to injure theirs. In this spirit that Mother's Day is a day for peace, I want to reflect on the impacts of the military actions and sanctions against mothers and children in Iraq. In that country, 70 percent of women now suffer from anemia and matemal mortality. There have been 320 tons Qf depleted uranium dropped since the Gulf War with an 18% increase in birth "<ieformities. For children, since 1987, when there was a 20% iiiiteracy rate, in 1995 it is now 42 percent.

We know that one of the results of war is family breakup and now women are more likely to be single mothers raising their children alone. There has been a 124% increase amongst chil dren and youth of mental disorders because of the trauma that they face in growing up in that war-tom country. So I would encourage all members of the House, as we appreciate our own mothers and reflect on their values and our lives- Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Ms. Cerilli: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (14:30) Winkler's Incubator Mall-Sod Turning Ceremony Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, on May 7, I had the opportunity of participating in a sod tuming in Winkler. The sod tuming was specific to the incubator mall which was erected in order to allow seven businesses to start. Involved in this sod tuming were the town council with Mayor Neil &:hmidt, the deveiQp ment corporation with the chair who is Don Friesen and the development officer is Walter Siemens.

1416 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14,2002 This group of council members and board members through the past two years have received requests from about seven businesses within the town of Winkler to develop space which would be available for them to put their ideas that they have to a test. The definition of an incubator is to keep warm until it hatches, and that was the slogan that was used at this time. So, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all the mem bers and constituency members of Pembina, I wish this group well as they get involved in this new incubator mall. Thank you very much.

ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin), that the House resolve into Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to. * (14:40) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) CONSERV ATJON Mr. Chair person (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. We are on line 4. Conservation Programs (

a) Divisional Administration ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $134,400, on page 46 of the Main Estimates book-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $90,500-pass. 4.(

b) Water Management

(1) Administration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $310,500. Shall the line pass? Mr. Ha rry Eons (Lakeside): When we last met, we left off with the finding out that, for instance, in the Office of Drinking Water, line

G) of Appropriation 12.3, and quite frankly which led my colleague and me to voice our concern the only way we can, by calling for a formal vote, that was to some extent precipitated by the information given to us by the minister through you, Mr. Chairman, that in this division or in this section, out of a staff complement of 1 7, there were some 13 vacancies. Mr.

Chairman, we have become accustomed to the fact that this Government and this minister have an adeptness at making good-sounding public pronouncements and statements, but, as we are finding out as we examine these Estimates line by line, there is a very big question mark in our minds as to his capacity and his department's capacity to carry out some of the obligations and undertakings that are being very publicly made.

There is no question in the overall background of concern that our citizens have for water generally, drinking water specifically, water management, and all the statements. * (14:40) I looked at the undertakings that your department talks about engaging in, a whole new strategic water plan for the province, specific use, targeting water quality to protect and en hance our aquatic ecosystems, conservation, to conserve, manage the lakes and rivers and wetlands of Manitoba, use and allocation objec tives of policies to ensure long-term sus tainability of the province to surface water and ground water for the benefit of all waters.

The list just goes on and on, not to talk about the principal kind of undertakings that face this Government and this department, particu larly in getting on with the flood protection that has been loudly championed in such documents as throne speeches and budgets and, of course, the substantial increase in drainage work that this minister and this Government has com mitted themselves to, although we find out that in essence it is really more replacing old, worn out bridges than any great expansion of the drainage system itself, a whole host of activity that this division of the department is under taking, but we asked the simple question and we will ask that question.

May 14,2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1417 We have determined that in one specific area, the Office of Drinking Water, there is upwards to-what is 13 out of 17, that is darn near a 70% vacancy rate. What is the situation, generally speaking, in tenus of just the staffing question, the staffing question in what I would refer to it? I believe you are referencing the items that we are on, Mr.

Chairman, to seven of this appropriation; in other words, the Water Quality Management group, the Groundwater Management group, the Surface Water Manage ment group, the Water Planning and Develop ment group, the Water Licensing group, Water Management administration that we are cur rently on. Can the minister give me some indication, aside from the print that we have before us, do you have the horsepower to carry out these programs, Mr. Minister? Mr. Cha irperson: Excuse me. Order. The honourable member from Lakeside is, I think, talking more about drinking water which is in the previous

section 3.(

i) if 1 am right, but what you are saying might be applicable to what we are doing now. Mr. Enns: For further clarification. It was the revelation in the discussion on the drinking water issue, which we have passed, but we determined when questioning the department about staffing levels in that office that 13 out of 17 were, in fact, vacant. That is history. Now we are into the actual conservation programs dealing from 12.4.(a)(b)(2) right down to 7, I am asking for what kind of horsepower the minister is providing his staff to provide some of the objectives that I just listed a little while ago.

Is the staffing vacancy in this division or in these sections 7 percent, 8 percent, or higher? Mr. Cha irperson: I thank the Member for Lakeside for that clarification. I accept it. Thank you. Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Chairperson, I would like to respond to the member this way and that is I cannot let his comments about making an nouncements and then not following through, I think that is what he was suggesting at the start of his question. I want to point out to him that when he was in government this was a regular pra{;tice for his government at the time.

I remember the capital budget one year, the Health capital budget, his colleague at the time, the forn1er Member for Brandon East or West, Brandon West, was chasing me down the hall way. I think he was all excited about the budget that he was about to announce, and he said there is all this capital for Health. You know what? We are going to commit money for the senior citizens complex in The Pas. He said: Shake my hand. Congratulate me. My response to him was I will believe it when I see it because I have known the previous governme nt to announce projects three or four times.

In fact, the announcement that the forn1er Member for Brandon West made with respect to Health capital, right after the election they proceeded to just take it off the table and proceeded to blame the federal government for not having 'Come through with funding. So I waited and I waited. I think I waited two years for the complex to be built in The Pas. So eventually two years later, the construction got started. So I do not need to be lectured, with all due respect to the Member for Lakeside. I refuse to be lectured on those kinds of practices because his government was well known for doing that and more.

Now let me get back to the drinking water office, because I want to put it on record. I think it is important to set the record straight. We, at the time that we were going through that line, were talking about the number of positions that were available. Well, the member, because he was in Cabinet before and dealing with Treasury Board and the budgetary process, will be aware that you cannot fill positions that have not yet been approved in the Budget in the Estimates. These 12 new positions that we created will be filled as soon as we go through iliis Estimates process-order the 12 positions.

The other 5 positions that were filled in order for us to opera tionalize that unit that we announced when we did was staffed by resour{;es from within. In other words, we just did not sit around and do

1418 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14,2002 nothing after we made the announcement. In fact, we immediately operationalized that unit from resources from within, and then of course, as soon as we complete this Estimates process, those 12 new positions will be filled inm1ediately. * (14:50) Now l think he also asked the question of what is the picture for total water resources. The information that I have tells me that there are 5.5 positions vacant out of a total of 77, and that is about 7 percent, so I want to assure the member that we are taking this very seriously.

I might also add that the water quality testing that was privatized under his government in 1996 when the Ward Lab was purchased by Enviro-Test, we have since gone back to subsidizing some of them, not all of them but a good number of them, the water test. So l think with respect to, say, drinking water, in the end our record will show that we have in fact taken steps to address, which I think I have in this process, in this forum here. I have said that the issue of water is very important because it affects everything that we do. Without water we would not be sitting here.

It was also further exacerbated by events that happened in Ontario and Saskatchewan, and so now every body, not just government people and not just government officials, everybody is now inter ested in water because they know that it is a very important conm1odity. At one of the meetings that l attended not that long ago, I told the group that water has become very, very important for everybody, even myself, even in Manitoba or out of prov ince, and when I go to drink that tap water I think about it,

whereas before all this happened, I would not even give it a second thought, but now everybody has become aware and that is why we have taken the measures that we have. Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I gently remind the minister that reminding us or myself of my past sins of omission or commission is not really good enough. I mean, after all, that is why we got turfed out. We were the bad guys. You are the good guys on the block now. So the minister should not take solace from referring back to the bad old days when little Tory Harry Enns was in charge of the shop.

He made mistakes and I will accept them, but you are the good guys now, and so it is my job to make sure you are precisely that. In your paper you talk a lot about the fact that in the past; particularly this has to do with overall conservation and water drainage and water management, the importance of looking at the landscape and recognizing the geography of the land and that planning should take place with respect to the overall watershed issues as they form on our Prairie landscape.

I submit to you that a good deal of that is always taking place, not always, but certainly since the establishment of the conservation districts which we have in the province which were established

part in my time by a predecessor of mine, the Honourable George Hutton. Back in the early sixties, the first conservation districts were formed in the province. It was always my hope and quite frankly the hope of every minister of natural resources that eventually the entire province would be covered by conservation districts that could in a more comprehensive way address the matters of drainage, address the matters of overall water management, the importance of wetlands and land planning and all that ts associated with it. I do acknowledge and I want to applaud this Government.

I believe when we left office there were some seven or eight conservation districts in the province. I think since then two or three have been added to the system. As I roughly understand it we had it slightly different in the sense that we had under our jurisdiction a department of rural development and during the time of the previous administration the con servation districts were, in fact, under the umbrella of the Department of Rural Develop ment. I suspect they are now all back here in the Conservation Department again, but maybe not, maybe it is Intergovernmental Affairs. That is a question.

But the bigger question is, you speak specifically here that it is recom mended the province create watershed. Some of these notes have come from meetings that you have had with AMM, with KAP and other people that watershed districts be created, the province create watershed district boards for -

May 14, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1419 each watershed district, which would include representation acknowledged from the munici palities, conservation boards, and other stake holders. Is there something working at cross purposes there? The concept of a conservation board, the ones that we have in place, involve a number of municipalities, three or four munici palities.

Generally, to my knowledge, they are dictated to some extent to in fact have authority over a watershed area and that then with a more co-operative way, instead of municipality pitting against municipality or ill-advised drainage, dumping water from one municipality to another municipality, the overall interests of that con servation district are first and foremost in mind, and the Government recognizes it by giving this conservation district a substantial portion of the drainage money that they would nom1ally spend in that area, whether it is for maintenance, for new construction.

I can recall back when I had some responsi bility in these matters that these conservation districts got upwards to $600,000-$700,000, money from the ,department of natural resources to carry out various conservation projects in the area covered by that particular district. Most of that related to drainage. Not all, but a lot of it related to drainage, some of it to small dam development, some of it to small water retention development, which, by the way, Mr. Minister, in my judgment we do not do enough of.

Can the minister explain, first of all, is there an interest on the part of this Government to create separate watershed district boards with, I assume, elected members? How will they work in an area where there is an existing con servation district board? Conservation district boards have elected or appointed members from the various municipalities. They get some staff support fw m your department, from govern ment, and they get an annual allocation of dollars from government. In what way would a watershed district board be different or in fact is it even necessary?

Am I misreading some of the information that has been coming out? * (15 :00) Mr. Lathlin : I want to assure the member that i agree with him. We also strongly supPQrt the conservation district concept. He is right. There have been three new ones added in the past year, and, in fact, we would like to see the entire south half of the province to be covered by con servation districts. I kept asking that question when I first came along, like it is such a good process, a good approach, so how come we are not doing it more? AMM has recommended the idea of water services districts.

If I remember correctly, it did not really come from Conservation. We are not really pushing that ourselves because we think that this conservation district concept works better. It seems to work well. For example, in the Whitemud conservation district, we have part nered in drainage approvals, a pilot project that has worked very well in that area. I am also aware of the Kelsey conservation district. I am aware of when it got started, and because I am in Conservation now, I have an interest to follow it and see how they are doing.

So we support the conservation districts and, hopefully, more expansion will take place. Mr. Enos: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to hear that, and if I understood the minister's last words, this is more a concept that was being pushed or promoted by AMM, from outside the department than from within. I want to reinforce with the minister that I believe that all programs need refinement and improvements, and, certain�y, all these programs could operate better if they had a bit mor e money in some instances.

But the concept of a conservation district, whether it is specifically getting an orderl y pattern of drainage, a better prioritized use of those monies that are available for maintenance, that maintenance gets started on a ditch at ilie right end of ilie ditch, rather than simply in that municipality iliat maybe has the money or so forth, and, of course, the broader conservation aspects that always have been important, of impacting more directly on land use, land allocation, �anning for wetlands maintenance,

1420 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2002 wetlands development-I would strongly support this department, this minister's efforts to continue to try to expand the development of conservation districts throughout certainly southern agri-Manitoba but for the North as well. I believe this is one way that the provincial government can provide leadership, support and help and yet at the same time maintain a relatively high degree of local involvement and local support.

The fact that these conservation districts are made up of the very municipalities that people have to live and work in in the district and very often responsible people elected to local councils and so forth, supplemented by professional staf f from your department, and dollars from your department when complemented with the muni cipal dollars or the local dollars make projects often far more possible than they would if either they were left to their own devices, either the provincial government or the municipalities.

This concept is one that 1 endorse, and, as I say, 1 would only encourage staff and the depart ment to carry on in making this more effective throughout Manitoba. Just for the record, can the minister indicate to me how many conservation districts are there today in existence? Mr. Lathlin: 1 can indicate to the member that currently there are 13 conservation districts in existence. The Whitemud pilot project on drainage will be expanded to two new con servation districts this year, Cooks Creek being one of them, and then we have not decided what the other one will be, but it will be decided this year. Mr.

Chair person: Page 46, Line 4. Conser vation Programs (

b) Water Management

(1) Administration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3 1 0,500-pa ss; (

b) Other Expenditures $1,929,80 0-pas s; (

c) Grant Assistance $25 ,000- pass. 4.(b)

(2) Water Licensing (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $719,800. Shall the line pass? Mr. Glen Cumm ings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, what is the vacancy in this area? Mr. Lathlin : Mr. Chairperson, I can indicate to the member that, out of 16, there is one vacancy. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chairman, the licensing section, this would be the area where licensing for irrigation is managed?

My interest would be whether the Assiniboine Delta aquifer is still being as tightly managed or if there is some surplus allocation that can be permitted in that area, or if there is any thought, real bottom line is if there is any thought of changing the current standard for licensing to the sustainable levels that have been in place for the last 10 years. * (15:10) Mr. Lathlin : Mr. Chairperson, I think the first part to the member's question was: Is this where the licensing area activity is carried out? [interjection } The answer to that is yes.

There is an aquifer management plan in place, and there is significant surplus water that could be sustainably allocated from the aquifer, I believe about 24 000 acre-feet. This is one of the possible sources for the potato irrigation in the future. Mr.

Cummings: 1 just want to confirm, 1 do not need the precise numbers, but I am trying to confirm if the level of withdrawal that is permitted or could be permitted has changed from the original management standards, which was 1 believe no more than 50 percent of the sustainable recharge would be taken. 1 am choosing my words carefully. 1 do not think I have it quite right. It is 50 percent of the sustainable level of the aquifer, in other words a sleeve of twice as much water there as is actually being drawn out for industry or agriculture. Is that standard still being used? Mr.

Lathlin: Yes, I can indicate to the member that the 50% rule is still in effect and still yields about 24 000 acre-feet surplus. Mr. Cummings: Is there any backlog in licensing other than would be normal for this time of year?

May 14, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 1421 Mr. Lathlin: I want to advise the member that, yes, there is a backlog. But I want to also indicate to the member that the situation has improved significantly because we took some measures along the way to try to improve that situation. As far as the detailed information is concerned, I would offer the member that I can get that information later on and bring it back here maybe tomorrow. Mr. Eons: Just to conclude what my coHeague was working on with respect to the management of our water resources here for irrigation pur poses, you, Mr.

Minister, and certainly the Chair and all of us are aware that we currently dedicated a day about the potentially dramatic impact the U.S. farm legislation has on our landscape here. I just take this opportunity to serve the department and you yourself, Mr. Minister, notice that there is going to be a lot more attention paid to this area of this department's activity. Your Premier (Mr. Doer), and rightly so, welcomes the addition of Manitoba's third potato processing plant, the Simplot plant, into the Portage area.

That means an additional not just the 25 000-30 000 acres of potatoes, and the industry demands are now that they be irrigated but, in fact, the capacity of 60 000-70 000- 80 000 acres as farmers rotate their field pro duction, in other words, this department's contribution to the well-being of the economy of Manitoba, how we maximize the use of our water resources, certainly in a correct and a sustainable way. But I would suggest you are going to be under considerable pressure, not in a timid way. There is just too much at stake.

As some of our traditional forms of agriculture get kicked around in the international trade wars of massive American subsidy dollars, more and more diversification is going to take place. Not all of it, but some of it is going to demand greater access for agricultural purposes for water, and I appreciate that we had priority calls on water use in the province.

They may have to do some re-examination as this situation carries on and certainly, as a former Minister of Agriculture, I well appreciate that along with that kind of agricultural diversification very often come good-paying jobs, good capital investment in the area. I think one of Manitoba's best secrets are the 100 people that are working in the little community of Carberry in the potato plant there, processing plant there, that supplies the McDonald stores in Chicago. We are positioned to grow the crop, we have the farmers' expertise to manage and grow the crop. There is some question, Mr.

Minister, whether or not we have the appropriate water management to sustain the crop. So, the question whether it is the Assiniboine aquifer, whether it is taking a hard look at how we manage the other water supplies in the province. I despair, quite frankly, sometimes, that we have seemed to be able to have, and this is not a political statement, untold minions of dollars to build a dam if we need it for Hydro purposes. We have, in this Budget that we are dealing with, committed very substantial dollars to deal with water works when it deals with flood purposes.

But there is an inability, a reluctance on our part to look at water retention for agricultural purposes. It does not necessarily have to be the big ones, but there are on different rivers and streams in agro Manitoba, southern Manitoba, opportunity for relatively modest capital dollars to build attractive water retention ponds that can be used for agriculture. I know that the department is actively engaged in helping, for instance, what I just called the construction of super dugouts in the south central part of the province, the Winkler project, again primarily for potato production.

These were dugouts of larger size than what the normal farm dugout would consist of, that were fed in the springtime with runoff water from some of our waterways. Quite frankly, that little bit of water did not flow into the Red to add to its problems and yet, very often, sustained a very nice family operation in diversified potato production. I am just citing that as an example. Your department is, in my humble opinion, going to be more and more involved with agriculture, and it is important, Mr.

Minister, that that get through to some of your senior staff, that they work co-operatively with agriculture, particularly, if you want to believe some, -that we could well be heading into a period of dryer years. * (15:20)

1422 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2002 Certainly our sister provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan have experienced them despite the current heavy snowfalls that they have had, but they are still pretty dry. It is always my hope that we could do a better job. I acknowledge that we did not do it when we were around, in building some greater capacity for water retention. There is room in the southern part of the province on the Pembina River. There is room in some of the streams in the southwestern part of the province.

Saskatchewan has done a pretty nice job just across the border on a few of their streams. They are putting up structures that have been a great help. They are often multipurpose. What very often develops is a very enjoyable recreational facility around these facilities, limited sports fishing or the likes of that, along with the dependable supply of water that services an agriculture district. With those kindly, fatherly words of advice from this aging legislator, I will pass this

section of yours. Mr. Cha irperson: 4. Conservation Programs (

b) Water Management

(2) Water Licensing (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $7 19,800-pa ss; (

b) Other Expenditures $3 7, I 00-p ass. 4.(b)

(3) Water Planning and Development (

a) Salaries and Employee Benef its $I,I0 2,50 0- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $7 I ,I 00-pass. 4. (b)

(4) Surface Water Management (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $840,400. Mr. Cummings: The vacancy rate here? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the vacancy rate is one out of fourteen. Mr. Chairperson: 4.(b)

(4) Surface Water Management (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $840,4 00-p ass; (

b) Other Expenditures $244, 700- pass; (

c) Canada-Manitoba Agree ment for Water Quantity Surveys $58 7,000. Mr. Cummings: How old is this agreement? Is this a long-standing agreement that we are just keeping up an ongoing quantification of water or is this a new undertaking? Mr. Lathlin : This hydrometric agreement the member refers to, I understand, dates back to I9 64. It is the same agreement. Mr. Cha irperson: 4.(b)(4)(

c) Canada-Manitoba Agreement for Water Quantity Surveys $587 ,000-pass. 4.(b)

(5) Groundwater Management (

a) Salaries and Employee Benef its $972,400. Mr. Enns: Can the minister indicate whether or not there is any serious investigation that the department is currently engaged in with respect to ground water pollution anywhere in the province? Are there some sites that are currently under investigation for ground water pollution? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, yes, to the member's question. We are doing baseline monitoring of actually several hundred wells around the province. Mr. Enns : Okay, I appreciate, although that was not quite the question, you are monitoring wells.

Are these specific wells that have been drawn to the department's attention, or is this part of an ongoing well monitoring program with respect to the health of our ground water? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the type of work that we are doing currently is more like random sampling of wells. Mr. Enns : I recall, for instance, members of the department will recall, one of the last serious ground water pollution problems that we had occurred in my constituency at the Bristol Aerospace plant when a serious ground water pollution problem developed. Mr.

Chairperson, I know the Government, the departments, the company, and everybody else was involved. I was referring to that kind of a situation where we were actively involved in trying to clean up a mess or we had a mess on our hands and we did not know what to do with, but I gather that that is not the case. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I can indicate to the member that the work that we are doing currently is nowhere near the scale that the -

May 14, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 1423 member has just referenced. I think earlier I read off a list of boil water orders, and that comes about when wells runoff water may have been wells that were aging, deteriorating or maybe malfunctioning so that is the extent of the work that we are involved in. * (15:30) Mr. Enns: Well, Mr. Chainnan, again I want to stress this is very important work that the minister and the Government is engaged in. I would encourage, if anything, that he find resources to expand this monitoring of our ground water throughout particularly agri-Mani toba.

I say that again specifically because of the concern that I have and the concern that seg ments of agriculture face, and they should face it, by the way. I mean we in agriculture should be the first to know if any activity that is being carried on in agriculture is in fact impacting on our ground water supplies, whether that is a vegetable grower on the Portage plains that is putting 300 pounds, 400 pounds of chemical fertilizer on his land on a yearly basis, or whether it is large a hog producer that is spreading manure in the prescribed manner on his land.

The industry directly involved should be the first to know if there is a ground water problem, but we look to this department, we look to this division to provide us with factual, unbiased signs as to what the situation is. Mr. Chaimmn, I cannot stress that enough with you. I made the point earlier in these Estimates, and I appreciate the fact. I just want, for the record, the minister to confinn that currently no mega hog bam is under investi gation for having polluted the neighbouring town's or the neighbour's well water. Is that right? Mr. Lathlin: I can indicate to the member, Mr.

Chairperson, that the only serious contamination issues are those contaminated sites, you know, like gasoline contamination, but, again, very small scale, nowhere near the Bristol example that he has given. I should also add that we also have 27 pennanent ground water monitoring stations situated, well, primarily in the south. Mr.

Enns: Colleague, just to show you how you sometimes get hoisted on your own petard, I was rebuilding my own fann horne that had recently been destroyed by farm fire and, after c-onsulting with my c-olleague from Dauphin, agreed that we should be eco-friendly and environmentally cor rect, and we went to geothennal heat which required the digging of a couple of wells. Being an old Minister of Agriculture, I knew that there were still some old programs that PFRA ran about supporting the water develop ment on prairie fanns.

I made an application to the PFRA office in Beau sejour for some support for at least one of the wells that I had to dig for my home. Oh, yes, I filled out the application fom1. It all looked tickety-boo, and still being modestly involved in agriculture, I qualified until they came out for the field inspection site. Then they found out that an old manure pile that I pushed out of my feedlot was too close to the site. We passed the regulation, danm it all, then.

I disqualified myself from any support because of a 30-year-old cattle, beef-animal manure pile that is a wonderful source for topsoil as I landscape my yard and so forth, but it prevented me from getting into the crock, you might say, colleague, and getting some government support for my new home that I was building. Mr. Chair person: I would like to caution the member to not use unparliamentary language here. I would caution the member. Mr.

Enns: In any event, I conclude by simply saying that, with the ongoing future for an extremely important economic program in Mani toba agriculture, attention to our ground-water supplies is critical. I applaud the department's efforts in this instance. I would ask you, if anything, to accelerate. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please. Would we allow the minister to respond. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I think we are all very fortunate here, sitting around a table,

1424 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 14, 2002 getting such wise counsel from the elder, so I take his advice and I thank him. Mr. Cha irperson: Line 4. Conservation Programs (

b) Water Management

(5) Ground water Management (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits, $972,4 00-pass; (

b) Other Expen ditures, $352 ,800-pass. Line 4.(b)

(6) Water Quality Management (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $428, 600-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $2 19,800. Mr. Cummings: How does the Groundwater Management

section co-ordinate with the Water Quality Management section? Mr. Lathlin: Those activities are now both in the Water Resources Branch. The member will be aware that, under the previous government, they used to be in separate departments. Cur rently, they co-ordinate directly on a day-to-day basis. Mr. Cummings: Pass. Mr. Chairperson: Line 4. Conservation Pro grams (

b) Water Management

(6) Water Quality Management (

b) Other Expenditures $2 19,800- pass. 4.(b )

(7) Waterway Maintenance $4,000,000. Shall the line pass? Mr. Cummings: I would be remiss if I did not indicate that this is an area that causes con siderable consternation across the province as it has done for the last number of years. If we go into a drier cycle, the opportunity to do some waterway maintenance would probably be improved. Is there any inclination, and this is a leading question, the minister can refuse to answer if he wants, but is there any inclination on the part of the Government or this ministry to perhaps redirect some resources if they can get into some of these waterways?

It seems to me it would be an opportunity if we are into a drier cycle. Mr. Lathlin: I can advise the member that a great portion of this Budget will be used for actual maintenance work this year. Yes, we are looking at re-allocation if feasible as well. * (15:40) Mr. Cha irperson: 4.(b)

(7) Waterway Main tenance $4,000,000-pass. 4.(

c) Parks and Natural Areas

(1) Administration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $355 ,400-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $305,80 0-p ass; (

c) Grant Assistance $191,200. Mr. Cum mings: What is the nature of the granting that occurs under this heading? Mr. Lathlin: There are really two areas, the International Peace Gardens $182,000, as well as the Wildlife Foundation of Manitoba $5 ,000. Mr. Chai rperson: Line 4.(c)(l )(

c) Grant Assistance $191 ,200- pass. 4.(c)

(2) Planning and Development (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $9 16,200. Mr. Cum mings: Under Planning and Develop ment, what activity is this

section managing? Are they currently identifying some new parks for approval? I guess what I would like to have the minister address is whether or not there has been any change in process in terms of opportunity for public input in establishing new park areas or referencing any changes that could occur in park boundaries, park usage. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Had the question raised, that seems to be somewhat of a less public process going on right now in terms of and if it does not quite fit under this section, I hope the minister and his staff will indulge me.

In terms of listing information on the public registry, it seems to be running, I am told, behind some of the actual activities that are going on as oppo sed to being concurrent with public information being made available. In other words, where there is a process underway to change park boundaries and an opportunity for public feedback, that information does not get on to the public registry until after that process is long gone and on to the next phase.

May 14, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1425 I am wondering: Has there been change or is there perhaps a shortage of staff in this area, or am I being given information that is not quite complete? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I am not really sure. I think I heard at least three questions in the member's statement. I think, first of all, whether we are looking at new areas, I can advise him that yes, currently we are working with the federal government on new lowlands national park around east of the Grand Rapids area.

The public registry system that he refers to was set up, as I am sure he is aware, it is a legal requirement under The Environment Act. We have expanded its use for most of the depart ments' public processes. We are not aware at this time of a problem of timeliness, but we will definitely look into that and determine whether there is a problem or not. Some registries are public libraries, so we cannot always control what happens in those vehicles. Mr. Cummings: I am certainly not attempting to malign any staff.

What I have been asked is whether or not they were adequately staffed up because of questions that were raised about the timeliness during licensing process. The minis ter's response is fair game if they will review that, and I think that is important because that registry is being used for a lot more than it was previously. There are probably some additional demands on people to get infonnation out there on regulations and everything else, changes that are occumng.

I guess, my other questions perhaps would be more appropriately asked further down in the lines, but in terms of planning and development, are we close to putting the Caribou River park in place? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the answer to that is yes. Mr. Cummings: Does the minister anticipate, under protected areas, meeting his deadlines? There are a number of areas that are going to be leaving the interim protection classification. Is it anticipated that they will receive or will there be further public information made available if they are going to be receiving permanent protecti-on? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairperson, I can indicate to the member that we are told yes, that the interim protected areas will have management plans when the five-year protection period runs out, at which time of course they become permanent. * (15:50) Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, I have raised this matter with the minister in the House and in his Estimates earlier. I am addressing an issue close to the minister's heart-C learwater Lake Park.

He has indicated and put on the record, on several occasions, that it is his Government's intentions to abide by the treaty entitlement agreements that he likes to point out were, in fact, developed and signed by a previous administration. I will ask him again for the record, and I ask this specifically because spokespersons for the OCN group at The Pas have equally specifically stated that they do not intend to abide by the tribal Treaty Land Entitlement Agreement that the minister refers to. I simply ask: What is the case going to be?

The Treaty Land Entitlement Agreement very specifically indicates, yes, parks' boundaries can be changed, can be reallocated, but in the event that that happens, they come under a co-management agreement. That is, in my understanding, more acceptable, let me put it that way, to interested parties around Clearwater Lake Provincial Park, but they have continued to be concerned by the position being put forward by OCN that they do not intend to live by this agreement. Can the minister indicate to me where his Government and his department stands on this issue? Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairperson, I am glad the member raised that question again because it gives me an opportunity to put it in some context, and that is I do not know how many people are aware that, in fact, the Stony Point Reserve which belongs to OCN was established way back in I 894. That was when it was established.

1426 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2002 Subsequently, of course, in 1963, the pro vincial park was established, and it set up right around the Stony Point Indian Reserve. I do not know if there was any consultation carried out at that time.

I rather suspect that there was none. 1t probably would have been an agreement just between the provincial government and the federal government, the federal government, of course, acting in a fiduciary way on behalf of the treaty Indians in that area at the time, seeing as they had set aside Stony Point as a reserve, and, of course, reserve meaning under the Indian Act lands that had been set aside for the use and benefit of Indians. The park was established in '63, as I said, and then around 1973 or '74, there was an Order in-Council that was passed by government taking land from the provincial park.

I believe there was some 25 acres that was taken from the provincial park and added on to Stony Point. So the other day one of the members was asking me if I was setting a precedent, and, of course, my response was, no, it had been done, in fact, before. So we come back to the present, and that is that in 1997 a Treaty Land Entitlement Frame work Agreement was negotiated and signed off by all parties, in I 997. Of course, that frame work agreement set out the parameters for negotiation, as the member well knows. In fact, I believe it was August of I 999, the band went into the land selection process.

In November, I took over the file, and there had clearly been a process identified under the framework agreement. So we completed that process, or that process was completed by the end of the March. Since that time I have met and I have received letters from everybody. I say that because I am getting letters from little children as well from there. I believe it was m March there had been open house meetings held in The Pas and Winnipeg. They came to an end at the end of March.

All the letters that I have been receiving from the people, I have told them that their comments would be given to the staff who are charged with the responsibility of putting to gether a report that would describe the meetings that had gone on, the input from the public that had gone on up to the end of March. I have also met with Jim Atkins, who is the president of the Cottage Owners Association.

I indicated to him that I would allow the process to be completed and that I would probably be getting a report from the department around mid May, end of May, I told him, at which time I would make a decision as to whether I would grant the request that they gave me at the meeting that I had with them to extend the public process. I am now currently waiting for the report. Once I get it I will review it. As I have told the member and his colleagues in the House, I will make a decision as to whether the process will be extended. So that is where it is right now. Mr. Enns: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the minister for those comments. I am for the moment prepared to leave it at that. I want to make it very clear that my understanding is from the contacts that I have had with interested parties, interested, that is, with respect to the future of Clearwater Park, are not taking issue with the OCN people with respect to their right. I am saying at least the representation made to me. Undoubtedly the minister has heard from other sources as well.

The issue is the future of that unique and beautiful lake that is part of our provincial park system and what the future development around that lake may mean to its ongoing sustainability. I referred earlier in my comments, I believe, in the House that there have been occasions when the Clean Environment Commission, for instance, has had a look at development requests that had been proposed earlier for Clearwater Lake.

The then-Clean Environment Commission is on record for having expressed concern about the sensitivity of that lake. 1t is, as the minister full well knows, one of Manitoba's most unique and beautiful bodies of water. They are concerned and I am concerned, and that is the manner and way in which I am presenting it, not with OCN's entitlement to land in and about or around that park, although that is a major move, to de-park some of our provincial lands.

May 14, 2002 LEGiSLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1427 The minister likes to remind me that that is not precedent setting, and I accept that. I simply remind him that it was also an NDP government that set that precedent back in 1973 or '74, when those 25 acres were then taken out of the park and provided to the Stony Point Reserve, the Order -in-Council that the minister referred to, 1973-74. * (16:00) Mr. Lathlin: I did not say it was a Conservative government. Mr. Enns: Okay. We are not arguing that point.

I am satisfied that the minister is on record that pending further advice from staff and when the process has moved along there will be or at least he holds out the opportunity for considerably more discussion to take place as to the future of Clearwater Lake Park. One further issue, Mr. Chairperson. Now more than a decade has passed that I had the privilege to be in the minister's office and entertained the then-federal Minister responsible for Parks, one Lucien Bouchard, who later went on to create other waves in the political field in this country, most notably in Quebec.

We signed what we would call a memorandum of understanding creating what was to become Manitoba's second national park, a major park in the Cape Churchill area. There were then and I am sure now always additional considerations, particularly considera tions involving First Nations people. The land envisioned by· Parks Canada and the provincial government at that time is a very significant piece of land. It would be by far the largest national park that Manitoba wou.kl have.

It was my hope certainly and the hope of the depart ment at that time that that would move on to fruition and we could celebrate the development, the establishment of a major national park at Churchill, Cape Churchill, I believe they call it, a large body of land that comes down from that point where the Churchill River enters the bay.

Can the minister, can the department give me any indication as to whether there has been any progress on that file, whether Manitobans can indeed look forward to a second national park up in that area, just a status -report as -to what is happening with respect to that initiative that was commenced on or about 1990? Mr. Lathlin : I can indicate to the member that there is a management board in place for the Churchill park, including the local 'COmmunities. Mr. Enos: But there has been no forward movement in terms of finalizing or actually designating-I am not fully aware of the pr-ocess.

I freely acknowledge it was not much more than an idea and a conm1itment on the part of Parks Canada, the federal governme nt and the pro vincial government that this national park ought to be established. I guess my question is: Are we any closer to it today? Mr. Lathlin: If the member is referring to the Waspusk National Park, that, as the member knows, the very last piece of work that happens when we are establishing a park after what I caB a long time of research and classifying infor mation and so on and so forth, consultations, the last thing that gets done is a management plan is developed.

In this case the plan is in place. It was established in 1997-98 and there is a board that is in charge of managing that park today. Yes, the park has been established. It has been in existence for about three or four years. Mr. Enos: Operation of national parks in our country is, of course, a federai matter. I am assuming then that the federales are putting some dollars into play in terms of the manage ment and the development of this northern park. Mr. Lathlin: Yes. Mr. Cha irperson: 4:(

c) Parks and Natural Areas

(2) Planning and Development (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits, $9 l6,200-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures, $163,600-pass. 4.(c)

(3) Park Districts (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits, $373, 100-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures, $48,80 0--pass. 4.(c)

(4) Park Opera tions and Maintenance (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits, $10,8 24,400.

1428 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14 , 2002 Mr. Enns: For want of a place to make these comments as we are moving along, allow me to put on the record and acknowledge the services to the departmen t, to the people of Manitoba, of one Gordon Prouse who for many years served the people of Manitoba as Parks Director. I understand that Mr. Prouse has left the public service, but certainly I appreciated his contri bution and working with him during the period of time that I had that opportunity.

I think it ought to be noted that substantial progress was made in the overall park manage ment scheme of things under his directorship. An entirely new parks act was passed in '92 or '93, a vi gorous perusal of ensuring that parks, because of their unique nature in Manitoba. People often forget the fact that before parks were established, we had what we called forest reserves in the province.

What the Roblin administration did, I think wisely so, is they encompassed many of these forest reserves and made them into provincial parks in different parts, eastern parts, northern parts, northwestern parts of the province. * (16 :10 ) What that meant, however, was that in this day and age there is some limited commercial activity that carries on in some of our parks that drives our tree huggers and environmentalists around the bend who do not want to see any kind of commercial activity in our parkland.

I have always taken the position that we would be the poorer for it if had we not combined the two and protected more natural areas, provided more natural areas for the enjoyment of the people of Manitoba and at the same time allowed under fairly severe management some activity, logging activities specifically to take place in some of our parks. That has always earned us a lower grade in the grading of such organizations like the Sierra Club or other park lovers who felt that that kind of commercial activity just should not take place in our parks.

Part of the development of the parks act of '92 or '93 was to more clearly separate out the activities within that provincial park, that could be set aside forever and a day in their natural state with no commercial activity at all. Certainly areas within a park where activity was encouraged by the department, the building of campgrounds and cottaging facilities in other areas but more clearly specified where under certain circumstances commercial logging op portunities could continue to exist within our Parks branch. A lot of that work was done under the direc tion and supervision of Mr.

Gordon Prouse, and I am pleased to let the record note that those services did not go unnoticed and were certainly appreciated by myself when I had the oppor tunity of serving with him. Mr. Lathlin : I would also like to echo the words of the Member for Lakeside by acknowledging the dedication and the commitment for many years by Mr. Prouse to the Government of Mani toba. In fact, the member will be pleased to know, if he does not already know, that there is a retirement function for Mr. Prouse today at the Breezy Bend Country Club, and I understand that it will be well attended.

An Honourable Member: Do you have a date for it? Mr. Lathlin : Today, 5: 30. Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, this division deals with not only parks and natural areas. Among the natural areas is the program that we embr aced, when I say we, the Government of Manitoba, on or about the 19 90s, called the Endangered Spaces Program.

The program sets out as a goal to set aside percentages of our land mass representing of the different types of land that we have, geography that we have, across the province that would be set aside from any or all future commerc ial development for the benefit of future generations to ensure that they enjoy certain parts of our province in a totally undeveloped way. There was, again, a substantial program underway in terms of selecting areas throughout the province that would qualify for this designation.

I am asking where is the Province at with respect to fulfilling that commitment made some time ago to the Endangered Spaces Program. Are we setting aside, are we any more or have we regressed? Any information the minister can

May 14 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1429 provide me, the committee, with respect to the Endangered Spaces Program . Mr. Lathlin : Mr. Chairperson, 1 can indicate to the member that approximately 8 percent of the representative ecosystems in Manitoba is now in protected areas. I want to assure the member that the protected areas initiative continues to be a high priority in our Govemment, and we are currently working with communities in Mani toba to ensure that we -can increase that per centage in the years ahead. Mr. Enos: I thank the minis ter for that information. Now, Mr.

Chairman, you know that my style is such that I am not above from seeking some personal advice from time to time while I am attending these committee hearings. I know that the honourable minister is not a lawyer. In checking his staff, I do not see, well, maybe there is a lawyer there, but I know we have the Minister of Justice sitting with us in the committee today, so perhaps he can be helpful to me. had the foresight, Mr. Chainnan, of passing in another several decades ago The Ecological Reserve Act that enabled you, Mr. Minister, to set aside certain pieces of land that had an ecological value.

Then, 10 years later, I again had the privilege of passing The En dangered Species Act for Manitoba. So now I have, on my mode st office door, a sign that says this area has been set aside as an ecological reserve for endangered species, endangered species being one that is still addicted to nicotine, and I want to get a legal decision from you as to whether or not I am abiding by the law even in fact, in this instance, I helped write the law. Is that a fair question, Mr. Minister? Mr.

Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that there is a new federal endangered species act on the way that he may have trouble with, but provincially he is okay yet. Mr. Chair person: Item 4.(

c) Parks and Natural Areas

(4) Park Operations and Mai ntenance (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 0,824,400- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $4,397 ,400-- pass;

(5) Support Services (

a) Salaries and Employe e Benefits $29 1 ,800-pas s; (

b) Other Expenditures $245, 1 DO-pass. On page 48, item 4.(d) (1 ). Mr. Enns: One final question with respect to parks. What is the estimated visitation to our provincial park systems this year? Are you anticipating what you had last year, or what are you anticipating this year? I know it is quite a remar kable figure really. Mr. Lathlin: I do not have the exact num bers. I will endeavour to get those numbers together, but last year-] have just been handed some paper here. Apparently it is estimated that five million park visitors came to the parks last year. Mr.

Chairperson, what I was going to say in addition to that was we can tell that the numbers are increasing every year because about this time of the year, or I think earlier in the year, when it comes to making <lraws for seasonal lots for camping, there is really far more people wanting to get lots and a lot of disa ppointed people because we only have so many seasonal lots, even though we continue to increase those numbers as well. So we are really noticing a big increase in the number of people visiting our parks. * (16 :20) Mr. Chairperson: Item 4.(

d) Climate Change

(1) Salaries and Employ ee Benefits $641 ,10 0. Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, we hear a lot about the commitment that Canada is hoping to make to intemational treaty obligations like Kyoto and the whole subject matter of clim ate change. What specifically would your department be involved with? What specifically, with respect to climate change, do you hope to effect, Mr. Minister, with the expenditure of some $875, 000? Do we have staff people working on esoteric papers trying to refute Ralph Klein, telling him he is bunko when he has trouble with this treaty? An Honourable Member: 'fhat would not take $875,0 00. Mr.

Enos: Well, that is what I am asking for because I would sooner that money maybe go to

1430 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2002 parks or monitoring of ground water or letting Steve Topping dig another 10 or 15 miles of drainage ditch somewhere in the province. What precisely are the people of Manitoba getting with respect to climate change for better than three quarters of a million dollars? Mr. Lathlin: I want to indicate to the member that we are responsible for developing the provincial action plan to deal with climate change.

As the mem ber knows, Canada was part of the international negotiations that ended up with the calling for countries to come up with a plan on how to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. There have been several federal provincial meetings that have been going on now. believe the argument used by some jurisdictions who thought that we should not sign on to the Kyoto Protocol, the excuse at that time was that they did not feel that the federal government representatives had the authority to make commitments on behalf of the provincial government.

So there was a big dispute over that, and then it evolved into, you know, the cost of Kyoto Protocol. There is a concern amongst the provincial governments in Canada, and including the federal government, primari ly those jurisdictions who were into oil and gas, coal, they are concerned if we sign on to this Kyoto Protocol that it is going to cost them a lot of money. As well, industry in Canada is concerned that they too will have to incur high expenses, you know, converting to whatever mechanisms are found in order to reduce greenhouse gas.

In Manitoba, we came back from one of the meetings, federal-pro vincial meetings, and made a decision that we should start our own work here in Manitoba even though the discussions are still going on between the federal govern ment and the provincial governments.

We felt that we could not wait for that process to be completed because at the time, the way I saw it, anyway, it was going nowhere fast, and it has gotten worse since then. * (16 :30) Now we have provincial governments threatening to not having anything to do with the Kyoto Protocol, and even the federal govern- ment is starting to run into some problems. So in Manitoba we are responsible for, like I said, preparing the provincial action plan to deal with clim ate change, things like energy conservation, ethanol production increase, and also looking at ways of improving transportation.

This area also does all the economic metric modelling for the ef fects on our economy of climate change and efforts to combat climate change. For 2002-2003, what we are planning is, in the Climate Change section, to deliver community-based programs through the Mani toba clim ate change public education and outreach hub that we are setting up. We will continue to represent Manitoba at the national discussions regarding the formulation of green house gas, mitigation policies and regulation, including the Kyoto Protocol.

We will publish the 2002 Province of Manitoba Climate Change Action Plan and will implement a greenhouse gas emissio n reduction plan for government operations. We are also promo ting and adminis tering the Climate Change Action Fund that was set up. We organize and promote a network of clim ate change researchers and stakeholders that will be eventually integrated with the Prairie Adaptation Research Collaborative, PARC. We will lead the interdepartmental private sector municipal outreach and co-ordination of clim ate change activities.

I will also continue to liase with national and provincial departments to conduct seminars on carbon sequestration, and participate in the analysis and modelling of economic impacts of climate change, as I said earlier. We are also going to co-ordinate a review of the so2 emissions regulation policies. Those are some of the things that we are doing with respect to the climate change.

We made a decision that it would be better for us to do something in our backyard, at home, partly because, as I said, we cannot continue to go to federal-provincial meetings for two or three days and return to Manitoba with no agreement. In fact, the discussion is getting worse and worse. So, in Manitoba, we have decided that we are going to go on our own. If, in the event that there is an agreement amongst the provincial jurisdictions to ratify the protocol, well, we will just, at that time, join in, because we have already said publicly that we endorse -

May 14, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1431 the ratification of the Kyoto Protocol. So that is where we are at. Mr. Enns: Does Manitoba get credits for the fact that we are fortunate in generating 96, 98 percent of our energy requirements through the use of our water, our hydro-el ectric resources. I can recall that initially at some of the Kyoto talks, and quite frankly that is what make s me less than an active supporter for it, there was a time when the international negotiators around Kyoto considered hydro power environmentally not friendly, not green. This is where they leave me.

If we cannot acknowledge that we manage, in this province, to produce the cleanest, in my opinion, most environmentally friendly energy as compared to you want to take a trip to Beijing in China or many places in Alberta or other parts of northeastern United States, where coal and petroleum and other sources generate the steam for the steam turbi nes. Can the minister comment on that? Do we get credits for the fact that we generate a principal portion of our energy hydro- electrically? Mr. Lathlin : Mr. Chair, I can indicate to the member that, yes, we are seeking those credits.

We have always argued for credits for clean energy. We are being supported now by the federal government, who initially were not supportive, and they will not endorse the Kyoto unless we get those credits, but as we are seeking to get those credits we are being opposed by the European countries. They do not feel that that should be part of the deal, but the discussions have not been com pleted. Negoti ations are ongoing. In fact, next week I will be in Prince Edward Island attending a federal provincial meeting, joint mini sters, to discuss this very subject. Mr. Enns: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I am still troubled with the fact that $875 ,000 is a lot of money to be spending on seminars and meetings and researchers and travelling. I mean, how often can you send your senior staff on these junkets to discuss clima te change? I mean the boys in Parks could do with refurbishing some of the furniture that is aging there. There are lots of areas in your shop that could use this $0.75 million. I am going to come back and revisit this a year from now, Mr. Chairman, through you to the minist er, because I want to know what it is that Manitoba is spending $0.75 million on this item.

I will be more specific a year from now. Manitoba, let us be modest about ourselves, we are, yes, a nice- sized province, with a very modest population. We do not have a heavy coal- burning industry belching out in the skies. A relatively small portion of our land is agri land, compared to even Saskatchewan and Alberta. Most of it is covered in boreal forest and lakes and granite rock. We contribute modestly to David Suzuki's problem, Mr. Minister, and why should we be calling upon our taxpayers? I admire your cutting, leading-edge position that you are taking, Mr.

Minister, in this fight against climate warmi ng. Although this spring has been a test of resolve, I would suggest, as temperatures hovered around 25, 26 below at the end of March and into May, nonetheless I will not criticize you for that. I am just saying that you are spending a whopping $875 ,000 on this matter. Mr. Chair, I am assuming, even though when you talk about the action plan, that if the Government should proceed with an ethanol plant, it will be a calling of the Minister of Industry (Ms. Mihychuk), that will be coming up with a half millio n dollars for {}eveJ.opment dollars.

If you are doing something else in transportation, it will be your colleague Mr. Ashton, or something like that in Transportation that will come up with the dollars unless you can point out that you have, out of this $875, 000, several specific capital investments that you are going to ma ke. I and the Member f'Or Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) are going to suggest one for you, and I am going to co-opt his support. We are both fans of geothermal heat, having had the wisdom of installing that in our home.

It would be a tremendous idea, a tremendous contribution in terms of reducing greenhouse gases if you as the minister and your Government took the lead. Although this technology has been around for a number of years it is still surprising how few

1432 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14 , 2002 people have twigged onto it. I mean a program that, for instance, would call for, let us say in the beginning with public buildings, public facilities using geothermal heat. You could even slip in a little program for residences that would make any benefit, say a $2,500 grant retroactively to apply to the Member for Dauphin and myself for the wisdom that we had. I would get some of that money that I did not get out of PFRA for digging my well. * (16: 40) What I am seriously suggesting -} mean, that to me is a proactive program.

If you come to me next year and say you want to spend a million dollars for climate wanning things, for more conf eren ces, I am going to be asking you what specifically you are doing about it. I would want to see some projects in place. I am going to work with the Member for Dauphin, and we will subversively undermine your position in this regard. We will put the heat on you, Mr. Min ister. Mr. Lathlin: I would like to indica te to the member that the

section we are on right now, in fact, includes our air quality people. We actually monitor air quality out of this area, setting objectives and standards and so forth. Three quarters of that budget is actually for air quality work. Mr. Chairperson: I will read line 4.(d)(

l) Climate Change ( 1) Salary and Employee Benefits $641,1 00--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $2 1 6,900--pas s;

(3) Grant Assi stance $17,1 00- pass. 4.(

e) Forestry

(1) Admini stration (

a) Salary and Employee Benefits $359,1 00. Mr. Enos: Can the minister indicate the vacancy standing in this division? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, there are 3.5 positions vacant out of 57 in total. Mr. Cha irperson: Line 4.(

e) Forestry ( 1) Admini stration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $359, 100-- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $3 70,800-pass; (

c) Grant Assistance $15 3,400- pass. 4.(e)

(2) Forest Inventory and Resource Analysis (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $835 ,700-- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $824,800-- pass. 4.(e)

(3) Forest Health and Renewal (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,753 ,600- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $3 ,663,300. Shall the line pass? Mr. Enos: What is this $3 million expended on, the major portion of it? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the two major items in that area is the Dutch elm disease program and also the spruce budworm. Those are the two big items. Mr. Enos: Can the minister break out for me the expenditures with respect to Dutch elm disease, urban and rural or other parts of Manitoba? I know it is a big-ticket item in the City of Winnipeg, but there are pockets of the disease in other Manitoba urban centres, as well as in certain rural areas. Is that inf ormation available?

If it is not readily available, it would be appreciated if it could be made available. Mr. Lathlin : Mr. Chairperson, yes, we can get that inf ormation for the member tomorrow. Mr. Chairperson: 4.(e)(3)(

b) Expenditures $3,663,30 0-- pass. Other I will just read in the record 4.(e)(3)(

c) Less: Recoverable from Rural Economic Development Initiatives ($1 ,292,000). 4.(e)

(4) Forest Management and Develop ment (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $506,800. Shall the line pass? Mr. Enos: A general question to the minister: What is the health of our forests? Are we developing, are we harvesting it sustainably? We have the two major operations in the province that harvest substantial amounts of commercial timber out of our forests. Is the minister satisfied that the current forestry management plans that he has with these two major companies, as well as a host of smaller independent foresters and

May 14 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1433 loggers; are we harvesting our forests on a sustainable basis? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, in fact, I can indicate to the member that probably this week I will be tabling the five-year report. The general prognosis is that the health of the forestry is okay. However, we have a long way to go on the inventory work to make sure we are harvesting at a single level. We have made some inroads. We are currently working with three main big players of Manitoba, I guess: Tembec and Tolko and Louisiana-Pac ific, in partnership with them to determine the inventory. Mr.

Enns: Mr. Chairn1an, I recall there was pressure on the previous administration, particularly the time when the Louisiana-Pacific people came to the Swan River Valley, to have those sections of forest land dedicated to northern-the Tolko operation removed from the Swan River Valley. Is that still an ongoing matter of negotiation or a problem? What is the situation there? There was a request essentially from the Swan River people and the company, I believe, to move the designated forest lands that Tolko had claimed out of that Swan River region. Has that happened? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairperson, the area that the member refers to is called the southern area. That southern area is divided into two main parts, the mountain district and the Interlake. By the end of June, we will have completed the process of reviewing the southern area with a view to come up with a new agreement with Tolko. Meetings are curren tly being held with our people and Tolko, and, hopefully, by the end of June we will have an agreement in place. * (1 6:50) Mr. E

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e347e73355240e853003e1a6d6f48e9552db08d7

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).