Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM . REPORT WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 17, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERAlD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 19

neceaber 17, 1ry75 Tape 72G The Rouse met at 3 : nn P . ~~ . l'r. ~peaker in the r.hni r. ~'T' • SPEAKER : Orner, pJ ease! On behalf of hon. members of the 'Pou~e I would l:l.ke to welcome a number of trainees from the 'Tocatiflnal Training pro~ramme in St. John's <->ho are in the legislature toclay, They are accompan:f.ed 1:-y three instructors, ~·r. Gerald llannister, l'r. t·l11yne lvatton and ~'rs. Graham. On beha] f of aJJ hon. members of the J ep;islature I would lilre to welcome these people. sm'E Rf1N. ~~'llFPS: Rear! Hear! 0 0 0 }'J'. SPF.AKFP: The hon. }':f.n:l ster of ~fit>es and ~nergy. J.o!P.

CHOSlli.F.: Yr. Speaker, on a point of, T ~upposP-, privile~e. I ju~t ~mnt to correct a wrong piece of reportjng here. The lJ.eadline in The Evening T;legrl!.m, page 3 to~IIY says, 11 Lower Churchill Will Cost II $200 Million Ry the F.nd of 1976. It is ent:lrelv incorrect, Yr. Speaker. As T explaine~ yesterday in detail, it is $41 million by the en~ of 1975, and another $55 m:llHon H we p;o right through the calendar year 1976. That ~10uld ml!.ke a total of $96 million. So there is just no connection het~,·een the headline of this story 11nd ~;,rhat ~·ms ~tated yesterday.

Since it is qu:lte a serious mistake I would like to exercise my privilege as to bring it to the attention of the Rouse. l·'T'. SPEAKF.1': The hon. member for T"aPoile (}'r. ~~el'try). 1"1'. NEAPY: l'r. Speaker, I wou]cl like to also r:l.se on a matter of personal priviler:e. Inneecl, Sir., the privilege~ of this hon. House concerning, Sir, statements wade to 'l'he Evening Telegram on ~·onday, nec:ewber 15 and repeaten ara:l.n last n:!rht on a Here ftnd Nov' programme made by '·'r. John Pennie, Sir, the caretaker manager of the Yarystown Shipyards. ~'r. Speaker, in vie"' of the assumpt ton made by ~1r.

"Pennie, caretaker manager of the Marystovm Ship: : ·ds, that his pr.ede·cessor 1 Yr, l"iJlen, had p,iven me the letters 'vhicl'l T. read in this House on l'r:l.c!ay, 1874

December 17, 1975 HR. NEAJ!.Y: Tape 724 November 13, 1975, Sir, concerninr, charpes of poor rnana~em~nt of Ill-2 the sh1pynr.r1s, J feel, l'r. Speaker, that 1t 1s 11:1perative to completely absolve ~·r. ~·1.llen of any responsibiJHy whatf<oever of placinr these documents in '"Y hl'!nifs.

S1ncF', l'r. ~peaker, the allegati.ons in the letters referred pretty specif:Jcally to TnanarPl'!ent ~urinr, "'-'r. l>ennie's period of ~i recUn? the shipy<trcl, perhl'!ps, ~j r, i.nsteac' of l'r. :'ennie slandering, libellinr, and att<Ocki .nr >!r. }'iJlen,that he shoulrl h<tve followed a di.fferent course of action and tried to defen.:l hil'1seJf ap.a.inst these 111leg11tions,if th11t is possible, Sir, rather than at tel'lpt to draw a red herr.tng across the trail by level1 inp accusations against ~·r. lli] len. 0 0 0 ~"'. SPEAKER : 'T'he hon. House Le<t~er. Yl'. HELLS: A point of order. F;~s that, }'r.

Speaker, a potnt of person11l pr:Jvi .lep;e,or interpreterl hy you, Sir, as that~or t,ras this some sort of statement bec;mse it tnvolvec1 people who ar~ not in this flouse, who are apparently in sol'!e sort of eli !<pute outside this Hom<e, and I fail to see how it can he P point of privilere Hithin this !louse, Yr. Speaker.. 1'1', S!'F.A.KF.T': of order. The hem. ~'>E'mhPr for T.aPoHe ("r. Ne11cy) on this point }·'1'. NEA,Y: Yr. Speaker., to clarify that, ~jr, the statements ~' ere m11de inside of this hon.

Jlouse 11nd l!,Tossl y c1i s tortecl and slan.:lerous and lihel accusatjons ~rere !'1acle ;t.painst an jnclivi<lual as a refmlt of remarks a.rtd clocuments tl1at J produced in this Tlouse,11g<:>inst an innocent party, Sir. This whole matter could affect Yr. HjJlen 's - I have never met the r.:entlem11n, Sir, never had the priviJepe nf meeting troe p:entJeman, t'"'uld not knm~ him if }•e stood here in front of me. And I th:fnk i.t is SCl!Ttdalous for "r.

T'enn]e to nnw this red herr:!np. :Into this "mole :! . .:<sue instead of trying to clear Ill' his own rec!'rd rvith the sh:lpyarcls. 1.f11 • \JELLS : ~ point of order, 1875

December 17, 1975 Tape 725 IB-1 ~m. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. Statements made of the sort the bon. member is speaking about outside this House leave both people involved with their remedies in the courts if they wish to pursue them. AN HON. MEMBER: Amen. lffi. SPEAKER: Order, please!

In my understanding, members rise on a point of privilege basically in two ways: One, a technical, precisely defined matter of privilege, allegation of breach of privilege; and secondly, members rise on a point of privilege in order to make an explantaion, or comment, or to give their opinion or clarification on a matter relating to What they may have said themselves in the House or what somebody else may have interpreted the remarks to have been. ~~en both bon. members this afternoon, the hon. Ninister of ~!ines and Energy and the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) spoke, they got the floor by rising on a point of privilege, and then made their explanations or remarks or comments with references to things said or written and relating to what they, each of them, had earlier said in the House. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: (see index.) !1R. SPEAKE~ : The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. NR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, with reference to question no. 1 on the Order Paper of Honday, November 25, asked of the hon. the Premier. The member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) had asked to table the engineering survey of the proposed underwater tunnel across the Straits of Belle Isle. Mr. Speaker, there is no one engineering survey. It is impossible to know what engineering survey the hon. gentleman refers to. There are a number of engineering surveys and reports on that. I have no objection if the hon. gentleman really want.s to go down and look through all these engineering reports or surveys, to arrange that for him. But it would be impossible to table all these in the House.

With reference to question no. 2 asked of the hon. the Premier on the same Order Paper, it asks for the tabling of the Preece, Cardew, 1876

December 17, 1975 MR. CROSBIE: Tape 725 and Rider report on transmission of electric po~!er from Labrador IB-2 to Newfoundland. The position on that, Y.r. Speaker, is that during the period 1964 to 196~ Preece, Cardew and Rider submitted five reports regarding the transmission of electric power from Labrador to Newfoundland, along the Anglo-Saxon route so-called. We do not know from the hon. gentleman's quest:! on \·1hat particular report he is referring to. In addition there is e0 ly one copy that we know of that \~e have. MR. ROBEPTS: There may be one in the cabinet records. MR.

CROSBIE: There may be one in the cabinet records. But th~re are not sufficient copies to be tabled in the House. But if the hon. gentleman wants to - MR. ROBERTS: ~w.. CROSBIE: There were only twenty copies printed. Yes. I do not know where they have all gone. Probably wHh ministers and so on. But if the hon. gentleman wants to have it arran~ed for him to see whatever the Hydro Corporation has there, you know, I do not mind arranging that for him.

Question no. 3 asked of the hon. the Premier on the same Order Paper: Did the Churchill Falls Power Corporation before being nationalized refuse to develop the Lower Church ill? Obviously, Nr. Speaker, they did not refuse to develop the T"ower Churchill. They proposed to develop it and sell the power to Hydro Quebec under the same terms and conditions as had applied on the Upper Churchill. Those terms and conditions \vere not acceptable to the administr11t:ion and they were not given permission to proceed under those terms and conditions.

So the answer is no, they did not refuse to develop it, but the terms and conditions under which they \vished to develop it were unacceptable to the government, and I think they ~rould have been unacceptable to any government of this Province. Question 4 asked of the hon. the Premier on the same Order Paper by the member for Twillingate (Fr. Smallwood): l'id the Church~ hill Falls Power Corporation before being nationalized refuse to bring Labrador electric power to the Island of Ne,vfoundland? The answer cannnot be answered in that fashion. They were not - and they never 1877

necemher 17, 1975 ~ 'T' • S ~ IALU!OOD: Tape 725 suggested nor did they offer to develop the Lower r.hurchil] hydro pO'I-'eT and transl"it it to the Island of Newfoundland. 1-l'hen it '1-'as IB-3 d:l scussed with them verba] ly on one or t••o occasions, they indicated that they were not interested in that because they did not think it would be economic or feasible at that time. 1878

December 17, 1975 Tape no. 726 Page 1 - mw -~~ CROSBI~:- Question No. 5 asked by the wember for Twillin~ate (Mr. Smallwood) directed to the Premier on the same Order Paper. The question asked: How much money have the government paid in interest on the monies borrowed with which the government purchased controlling shares in Churchill Falls Power Corporation? Durin~ the same period how much money has been received by the government as their share of profits earned by the said corporation? How much has been received by the Government of Quebec?

To answer the last part of that question first • no monies have been received by the Government of Newfoundland from CFLCo as our share of the profits to date because,as I explained yesterday~CFLCo cannot declare dividends under their trust deeds and so on and so forth until 1977. So if the Government of Newfoundland has not received as yet any share of the profits of CFLCo, the profits have got to be kept, and can only be paid cut in way of dividends from 1977 onwards, nor has the Government of Quebec received any dividends from the shares their own of CPLCo for the same reason.

Both governments will start to receive dividends from 1977 onwards. With respect to the interest paid on the money borrowed to purchase the controlling shares of CFLCo, the interest paid by NIDC and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro for the period from June 27, 1974 to November 30, 1975, in relationship with the shares of CFLCo, is an a.ount totalling $19.2 million. Question No. 6 on the Order Paper of the same date, November 24, asked by the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) to the bon. the Premier.

It asks: What financial assistance the Government of Canada offered toward the cost of developing the Lower Churchill,and certain other questione• This question has been answered as fully as we can answer it in a statement that was delivered in the House by myself November 28. So the question has been answered as far as we can answer it at the present time. 1879

Decembe.r 17, 1975 Tape no. 726 Page 2 - IIIW Question No. 83, Mr. Speaker, on the same Order Paper, asked to the Premier by the same hon. membe~ (Mr. Smallwood). The question was: Some account of what has resulted from the modified concession and claim-staking system developed to encourage a much higher degree of mineral exploration than has been the case in the past, as announced in the Speech from the Throne on January 31, 1973. I will table the reply, Mr. Speaker, and the reply certainly shows what has happened as a result of this new concession system, ·• claim­ staking system.

We have seen a tremendous increaser For example, in 1970, the number of claims nine: in 1972 it was thirty-five; in 1973 it was 490; in 1974 it was 1,455; and in 1975 it was 2,475 to date. This illustrates the kind of increase activity there has been as a result of the new system and the number of miners' permits issued has had a vast increase from fourteen individuals in 1970 to 150 in 1975 to date: fifteen company permits in 1970 to twenty-nine in 1975 to date, There is a bit further information in the written - there will be a series of these. You may as well wait.

There are seven copies, I think, for the House and hon. members. Now Question ~o. 84 on the same Order Paper asked to the hon. Premier asks: What has been the outcome of a detailed study to identify opportunities which exist for the futher processing of minerals in the Province? It refers to the Speech from the Throne of Janyary 31, 1973. As this is a long answer, Mr. Speaker, I will table copies of the answer here. Question No. 120 asked of the Minister of Mines and Energy in the same Order Paper by the same hon. member (Mr. Smallwood).

The question is: A statement showing the diamond drilling done by the government and number of feet and so on. I table the answer to that now. 1880

Decemher 17, 1975 Tal)e no. 726 Page 3 - mw Ques.tion No. 121, the same Orde_r Paper, the s.ame member (Mr. Smallwood), the same minister (Minister of Mines and Energy), the llliiOIDlt of diamond drilling done by private mining . companies in the last five years, the amoiDlt of money speflt and so on. That is a long answer so I will just table it, Mr. Speaker, but all the information is there, MR. ROl!ERTS : It will all become part of VolUJ!!e 7. MR. CROSII1E: This will all become part o-f Vol me 7, yes, of The Booka of Newfoundland • Questi _on No. 122, the sallie Order Paper, the same udniater (Minister of Mines and Energy), the same member (Mr. Sm&l.lwood) about 1881

December 17, 1975 Tape No. 727 NM- l MR. CROSBIE: the value of ~old produced at Buchans since it began operations. We do not have the information on the total volume and value of gold produced since it commenced mining operations, but we have some information from the report of the industrial enquiry commission from 1962 to 1971 and that is contained in this answer here. It is $2,292,000 from 1962 to 1971. Question No. 126, the same Order Paper, the same people; how may mines inspectors are employed. At present there is one inspector employed, electrical, mechanical and a chief inspector.

Two more have been engaged and will take up their appointments in January. One vacancy still eKists and the candidate remains to be interviewed. There has heen an extensive advertising campaign. Question Nc. 127 is about oil shale at Deer Lake and I will just leave that. It is too lonp, to go into verbally, It is asked by the same hon. gentleman. Question No. 128, the same member, this question is one that says, what exploration or d~illing have been carried out on possible oil deposits under the dry land portion of the Province in the past three years?

The ans~1er j s the only oil or gas exploration carried out on the dry land portion of the Province during the past three years was a drilling by the Union Oil Co. and Brinex, an exploratory well in the Anguille Mountains. That well,drilled in the Fall of 1973,reached a total depth of 5,781 feet and encountered no indications of either oil or gas. Ou~stion No. 129 by the same gentleman, how many feet have been drilled and how many holes and by whom in the various off-shore oil and gas concessions.

A total 6f 478,047 feet have been drilled in fifty-one wells during the search for oil and gas within the jurisdiction ef this Legislature off-shore. Details of the wells are given in this answer and the locations are given on a map, this map here. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Clerk might keep the maps so any interested member could see the map, but there are seven answers to the question here. MR. MURPHY: Is the map autographed? 1882

November 17, 1975 Tape No. 727 NM- 2 MR. CROSBIE: It is not autographed. No. Question No. 130 by the same member, on the same Order Paper, a statement of geological surveys for the period 1970-75. The ans,~er"J~.•hich is too detailed for me to give here in detail at the moment~ sho~·s a very encouraging increase in the amount spent on geological mapping parties since the member for ~illingate (Mr. Smallwood) ceased to be Premjer. In 1972 the cost of the parties was $45,000 and this year it is $251,000 and last year $284 0 000 and so on. r.reat progress is being made.

Ouestion No. 131, same parties, about efforts to brin~ about development of the ma~isite deposit in Central Newfoundland, the ans,~er is that that deposit located at r-reat Bend on the Gander niver is controlled by NALCO, the friends of the hon. former Premier (Mr. Smallwood), as it is within the concession area held by them under the NAI.CO Act. We have no recent information on the company's activities, if any, with respect to that deposit. If the hon. gentleman would contact NALCO principles and ask them to push that forward I am sure it would be very helpful.

Ouestion No. 132, same Order Paper, the present status of the E<alt deposit discovered bv Hooker Chemicals. The reply is, "Following the termination of a concession agreement, Hooker C:hemical Corporation ••as issued five development licences in the St. George's Bay area on .July 25, 1975. These licences were valid for a five yeaw period. Subsequently three of the development licences were surrendered and the remaining two were assigned by Hooker to Forresters Petroleum Limited, a subsidiary of Hooker.

Rentals on the two licences have been paid up to July 25, 1976. 0uestion No. 133; what,if anything,is being done to discover other deposits of salt. No salt exploration is being conducted recently in the Province apart from the work conducted by Hooker and Forresters Petroleum. MR. YOUNG: The happy hooker. MR. CROSBIE: The happy hookers. 1883

December 17, 1975, Tape 728, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: Question 134. This is a question asking for the names of all mining companies that have come into the Province to do nrospecting and develoning in each financial year from 1970 to 1975. There is a list attached here, Mr. Speaker, which will show the encouraging increase in the number of minim!; companies in the Province in the last five years. Question 136. This is really for the book,because it asks for a table showing the value of minerals produced here from 1950 to the present day and our answer comes from the Canadian Mineral's Year Book.

But we will do all we can to assist bon, gentlemen and we reproduced it all here in the answer to this question. The answers to these questions are costing us thousands of dollars in time and effort but - MR. ROBERTS: You will get a credit in the book, "John". MR. CROSBIF.: A footnote. Question 138, Mr. Speaker, asks me if T have taken serious note of the public complaint of a British Petroleum officer - recently made - that it has been taking them from three to nine months advance ordering to get goods delivered to them in this Province.

The answer could simply be ''Yes, I have taken ,, serious notice,but we do not want just to fool around with these questions so we have a larger answer. MR. NEARY: How about Lou Mumby reading it? MR. CROSBIE: That would take a long time. We have taken notice of the comments of the official of B.P. The Department of Mines and Energy 1who are in constant contact with offshore operations,are keenly aware of this problem. In conjunction with Industrial Development,considerable efforts are being made to impress local business with the need for prompt and timely service in the very costly oil business.

Local businesses have responded well to this challenge. The basic problem arises from a lack of adequate ~reight service from the mainland, a problem which has long been a source of much inconvenience and cost to Newfoundland consumers. It is our hope that pressure from the oil companies for better service will force the federal government into some action in this area. This will result in benefits not only to the oil companies but to 1384

December 17, 1975, Tape 728, Page 2 -- anh MR. CROSBIE: all sectors of the Newfoundland economy. One question here, 'lr. SnE'aker, that was asked bv thP. hon. gentleman from LaPoile (~r. Neary), who has fallen far behind the hon. gentleman for ~~illingate(Mr. Smallwood) in the number of questions,but he is attemntinp. to catch up. MR. NEARY: Wait until tomorrow when l really get going. MR. CROSBIE: r.etting ready for your own book.

Question No. 675 asked me to table a chart showing in detail the areas of the offshore exploration for gas and oil and mineral rights granted to various comnanies and detail for each block the period for which the exoloration rights have been granted. MR. NEARY: That looks like a road map of the House of Assembly. MR. CROSBIF.: Is that right? ~- SPEAKRR: Order, nlease! MR. CROSBIE: Well, Mr.

Soeaker, the answer is almost all areas off our coast hold some prosoect for oil or gas and at various times during the last ten years virtually every portion of Newfoundland and Labrador's continental shelves and slopes have been examined in the search for hydrocarbons. Most significant exploratory activity has, of course, been the drilling of fifty-one wells as detailed to the House in reply to question 129_, which shows where the fifty-one weJ ls have been drilled.

The early stages of this exploration activity were conducted under a series of grants, agreements and undertakings entered into by the nrevious administration. These agreemente were not issued for a specific period. Areas subject to such agreements are shown on the attached map entitled "Provincial permits issued prior to 1974". Most of those we do not consider to have any validity for the future. Since passage of the amendment to the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act of 1974, no company has been allowed to undertake any petroleum exploration activity without securing an interim permit from the Province.

Unlike interim permits issued by the nrevious administration, these interim permits are granted only for soecific programmes to be conducted in a particular area with a limited time, The neriod for which they have been issued has normally been twelve months and they 1885

Oecember 17, 1975, Tape 728, Page 3 -- apb MR. GROSI\TE: confer neither ownershiP nor production rights , they are only for exploration purposes. All such interim permits presently in force are shown on another mao here called, ··Term interim oermits outstanding December 15, 1975." The two maps mentioned above to~ether detail all offshore oil and y.as rights which have been ~ranted by the Province and which are currently in force. MR. NEARY: Cot the money in the bank? MR. CROSBIP.: This is only the Provincelnot what the federal ~~tovernment has ~tranted. MR. DOODY: ~. CROSBIE: ml. NEARY : MR.

CROSBIE: The hotel mana~r in Panam.a, have you got his there : No, he was cancelled I think. Do I get to keep that map? Well , 1 think if the hon . gentleman would look at thP. maps and let the Clerk have them for anybody who wants to look at the.m it would make it easier. H~. NEARY: MR. CROSBIT.: MR. SPEAKER: I would like to have one for my office. That is all, ~lr. SPeaker . Thank you. Any further answer s to questions? 1886

December 1i, 1975 Tape no. 729 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. _P~c;K_"f'Q_~D: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the answer to Question No.449; What new water systems were placed in the Province in each of the financial years 1970-1975, and the capital cost of each? That was on Monday, November 24 asked by the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). So the whole list of water systems that have come on stream in the last five years is detailed here showing a total expenditure, which I will table.

Question No. 450: What new sewer systems were placed in the Province in each 6f the financial years 1970-1975, and the capital cost of each? There is a list of the places with sewer s ystems : Brigus, Catalina, Clarke's Beach, Crow Head, Deer Lake, Englee, Millertown, Pasadena, Peterview, RObert's Arm, in the great historic district of Green Bay, St. Bernard's, St. Mary's and Upper Island Cove, - MR. LUNDRIGAN: Hear, hear ! MR. PECKFORD: - and the cost of each.

Question No. 451, aaked the same day by the same hon. gentleman: What new water and sewer systems - a logically based question, I might add - were placed in the Province in each of the financial years 1970-1975 and the capital cost of each? And so we go down through a whole list of those as wel~ giving the places, the capital costs in the various years, which piles up a fair number of dollars on the Province, a total of $62,582,000, Your Honour. Question No. 468, Mr.

Speaker, for the benefit of hon. gentleman present, hon. members,! should say: A statement showing , for each of the financial years since Confederation, either by cash or by guarantee,to provide central water, central sewerage, or central water and sewerage systems, how much of the said amount in any financial year was contributed by any and what agency of the Federal Government? In assessing this question and all its ramifications, we have , after labourous hours, studying the question, found out that it would take five or six 1887

December 17, 1975 Tape no. 729 Pagii! 2 Mr. Peckford. people in the department anywhere from fifteen to twenty-six days to get together all the information, so we have not answered that question as of yet, and that is the reason - MR, S~~LWOOD: What term? ~ffi. PECKFORD: -since Confederation, water and sewer, water and sewer and the agencies through which these funds are payable, and we are going to attempt to get them. So we have delayed answering that question right now because it is extremely difficult to come up with all those - MR. ROBERTS: You have to check out all of those? MR. PECKFORD: Exactly. MR.

ROBERTS: Those volumes must be moving right along. MR. PECKFORD: Well, you know, I might even get a complimentary copy of something. Question No. 473, Mr. Speaker, giving the contracts awarded and so on for water and sewer systems for capital works in the Province in the past year, and they are all here. Who they were awarded to? Who were the consulting engineers? The contract award date, the contraceor and contract value? This gives all of it for this present year, our capital works programme that a lot of people have been asking for.

The information is here in this answer on the capital works programme since December 1974 to December 1975. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh: MR. PECKFORD: So, Mr. Speaker, I table the answer to these questions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, in aa.werto Question No. 419 placed on the Order Paper by the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwoodl, the question was the information regarding the expenditure per year since 1970 by the Federal Department of Regional and Economic Expansion for the reconstruction and paving of roads in this Province•. In 1970-1971 there was $13 millinn from the federal government; in 1971-1972, $23 million: 1888

December 17, 1975 Tape no. 729 Page 3 - IIW 1972-1973,$28 million; in 1973-1974,$18 million; in 1974-1975,$20 million and this year to date, up until November 1, $16 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. ROBERTS: A very Liberal government up there in Ottawa. 1889

TApe 730 HR. HClRC.AN: r,re need much More. t~. PECKrorn: After conservative hadgering. AN HON. t'E}"lEP: Oh, oh! Only $13 million in 1970. _ _!1Jt. SPF.AKEP: The hon. l'leMher for Mount Pearl (~ ' r. N. Pindsor) • J:B-1 ~'1'. IHNnS01': }'r. ~peaker, t •rou]rl like to tAhle the ans••ers to a numher of questions on the Orner Paper of ~oveMher 2b Asked of the h.on. the Prel'l:! er hy the hon. rnemher for 'T'wi!Unfate (~r. SmalJ•~ood), ']Uesti.ons no. r., 11, 1'l, 20, ?.1, 2'1, 41 and 47. SOME HON. "F:t'I\!-:1'~: He;~r! Hear! The hon. Vinister of Jlealth. t"T'. 11 •. r:ClLLINS: "r.

SpP:'lkPr, in the cont:!mdn? story of efforts ro provic1e infom.,tion for volnl'le 7, I have some anst-•ers. The answer to nuestion no. 372 in the name of the hon. Memher for TwilJingate (!-'r. Smalhrood); no 377 I will be kind to the House. I tv:lll not rea~ :'!11 of them- no. 374; no. 378: no. 380; no. 3~6; no. 389. /1!-1 f!ON. ""E'"BF"': P'hy do you not reac1 them out? ''r. P. COLLINS : I rlo not think. It is not of any great Interest. r ". )Qii: no. 3°7: no. 4f'\f1: no. 403: no. 373 ; no. I•OR; no. 411: and i.n the name of the hon. the member for LaPoiJ e ("r. Neary) the anS'II'er to question no. 655. t 'l'!.

NEA'PY: ~cad the anst•er. .AN T1(1N . ~'EMBEr: ~·l1111t tvas the question? ~m. H. r.ntLINS: Tt :Is a lonp, ans, .rer. It :Is a question asking the names of thP- members of the Ro~r~ of r.overnors of the ~t. John's General Hospjtal rorporation. They are all iiste~ and I might say that in respon~(' to the thir<l part of the Question, what salaries, "'ap,eR or other remmeratjon are paid to the rnell'bE'.rs of the said board, the answer :Is nn., not a cent. >'T', NFA~'Y: Tl,ey do not ~et paicl . for meetinr:s? :._~. H. CC'LUNS: ~ro.

YP., ~T'J\AKF.T>: 'l'tle hon. ~t:fn:!ster of Provincial Affairs .and Fnvironment. ~'R. ~'llP.PHY: For " slight chanp.e of pace, questions no. 642 on the Orc1er Paper of Novernher 3, 1 believe, asked by the hon. member for rarbonear 1890

~ecemher 17, 1975 MR. }'llJRPHY: TCJpe 730 _Tll-2 (Mr. F..

MooreR) \Jith reference to any CJttel"lpt that hils heen unclertak<.'.n or is about to be undertaken to dcpollute nrrl rPvi ta] i ze r.arhonear ponn :!n the center of the Town of t;arbonel'1r. \>le suggest he ask the mun:!c:!pa] authority. flttestion no. n43, to ask the hon. }'inister of Provincial /lffairs,the same member, to table the poJlut .lon stuny relater' to the Ne~.>founcU :mel T"eather, rur and Hic1e Cm~rpanv J oc~tec! fn the inr:lustr:l al parlr. r.arhonenr -no studv made hy thi.s cle11!'1rtment. l')uest:!on no. 644 neal R ••ith a stuny of pollution related to the con~<tructinn and openinp; of F.CJr]e Proteins T imiten r,_rbone"-r 1 my department has made nn stuc1y of this group either. !';n, the subject of po]Jut1on is f:!.nif'hed as far as rarhonear is ccmcernec'l.

ORAL QUESTIONS: M.R. SPE.AKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. ~!P .. NEAPY : }!r. Speaker, I would like to put a Quest:!on to the Hinister of Transportation and Communications, Sir. Is the minister aware the the P-CJIIP in Burin made a statement this morn:!.ng that the accident on a road called The Scrape was ca.used by slippery road conditions?

If the minister is aware that this statement was macl.e causing the fatality in Burin, will the minister tell the House what precautionary measures or investigations are carried out by the department to make sure that the minister's department is not at fault in these cases and why that road ~ras not sanded, say,at four or five o'clock this morning? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. M.R. MORGIIN: Nr. Speaker, no I am not aware of any statements made by the Rn-'P, ~Thether or not the accident was caused or in fact about the accident.

But I will make this statement in reply to his question, that I intend to be in contact with all ROIP detachments around the Province to give me reports, if not daily at least weekly~with regards to accidents that could be caused or were caused or if the road conditions had any effect at all on the accidents. 1891

December 17, 1975 Tape 730 IB-3 MR.. NEARY: Good idea. That is a good idea. _m. SPEAKER: The hon. member fo.r Windsor-:Sqchans. rm. FLIGHT: Nr. Speaker, I address this question co the 'Minister of Mines and Ene.rgy. It is aga,in pursuing the establishment of the mining school in Newfoundland. Would the minister indicate if a firm decision has been made as to the location of !;lUCh a proposed school? :!R • SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Kines and Energy. 1892

December 17, 1975 Tape no. 731 Page 1 - mw MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, you know I tried to answer this before. There has been no firm decision made that there is going to be such a mining school. There is a study that has been done as a result of the initiative and get-up-and-go and drive of the member representing Green Bay (Mr. Peckford) - MR. ROBERTS: Hea:::, hear! MR. CROSBIE: for the Whalesback mine to be used, the abandoned Whalesback mine to be used for the purpose of a mining school. That report· is before the government It may or may not be accepted.

If that is not accepted • If this venture is not found to be a good plan for the l'ha1esback area, then presumably the government could look at o.ther areas if it is considered that it is desirable to have a mining school. So no decision has yet been made. But the one area that has been studied that there is a report on, and the first one to be brought to government's attention is the Whalesback mine, and that is what is being looked at. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

FLIGHT: !-lould the minister consider my drive, get-up -and -go in .requesting that now such .a study being done to ascertain whether or not such a school would be maybe more desirable in Iluchans and serve a greater purpose? HR. SP EAKCI' : The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. ,CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, this is a reasonable government and its mind is not shut to nnything • If it is found that the Whalesback mine and a mining school for that area is not feasible, it cannot be done, then we would not hesitate to look at other areas. The situation is that at the moment Buchans is still an operating mine.

He hope it will be for longer than the period until 1979. Bell Island has another abandoned mine. We have striven with might and main to develop something there, and as the present member for that district has got a project going on there now that may result in great things for Bell Island. MR. MURPHY: Tne excavation on Barters Hill - 1893 •'

t:. December 17, 1975 Tape no. 731 Page 2 - mw MR. CROSBIE: So I will not say that we will not look at it. We will see what happens with this study and if the hon. gentleman wants this considered, in connection with Buchans if it is turned down for Whalesback, we will look at it, sure. MR. FLIGHT: ~ffi. SPEAKER: HR. NOLAN: I thank the minister. The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. What efforts has he made to approach the federal government on the development of the harbour or additional development of the harbour in St. John's?

What reply, if any, has he received? MR. NEARY: None, I hope • We do not want Port aux Basques wiped out. ;'{R. DOODY: Especially ,Sid Tavenor: SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh: Ma.MORGAN: Port aux Basques is out. Mr. Speaker, in reply to the question, I met with the members of the St. John's ~ort Authority, in fact; Mr. 1 .• 1is in particular, about two weeks ago and discussed with him the need for 1mprovement to the St. John's Harbour. I then gave him the assurance of every co-operation and support from my department on that matter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Would the minister do this to the detriment of any other port in Newfoundland, especially Port aux Basques1 MR. MORGAN: For the benefit of all Newfoundland,hopefully. MR. SPEAKER: ~!R. MULROONEY: The hon. member for Exploits. Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Could the Minister of Fisheries state whether or not the study on the wood that was exported for the manufacture of barrels exporting fish from Newfoundland has been completed and whether or not the report has been acceptable for manufacturing here in Newfoundland? 1894

December 17, 1975 Tape no. 731 Page 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Fisheries. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice and I will provide an answer later. MR. SP.EAKER: MR. MULROONEY : The hon. member . has a supplementary, I believe. Could the minister also take under advisement the number of barrels that we import to Newfoundland, the cost of each barrel, and whether or not it is at $16 a barrel, whether or not the machinery that we have in Newfoundland, which is outdated, can still manufacture barrels cheaper than we can import them, whether or not - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would suggest that the hon. gentleman has a whole series,or certainly a series of questions which are not appropriate for the Oral ~estion period. What I would suggest is that he put them on the Order Paper or communicate them privately to the minister as a follow-up to the oral question. But a whole series of questions like that are not appropriate to the oral question period. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing.

Could the minister indicate to the House why so many members of town councils across Newfoundland and Labrador are resigning? MR. PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the assumption or the premise on which the question · is based is valid. Where are all the people resigning in town councils? I do not know of very many people who are resigning. MR. NEARY: You can hardly turn on your radio, There is scarcely a day passes without hearing about a few. MR. PECKFORD: I do not know. They will have to give their own reasons. I imagine each one is different, you know.

I do not think the question is an extremely good one, besides it is not urgent, and I think the hon. member should do more research before he asks such a question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 1895

n~cemher 17, 1975. T:tpe 732 RH - 1 HR. SPEAKER: The member for Baie Verte-Hhite Ray. ~m. T. THnEOTJT: Hr. Speaker. I Nould like to direct a question to the Nin:ister of Hines and fner~y.

In vie\1 of the Easton Report i.nto industrial inquiries in labour relations at IOC,I have a question related to 1:'\ro aspects of that report related to the minister's department. 11a"' his-depnrtment taken any action •~ith re)::ard to the> replacement of the environmental technician at Labrador City~and also increasinp, staff to monitor more closely the> efforts of mining companies in dust control, t1.ro recommendations of that reoort? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Hml • .J. CR(1SJliE: Yes, }!r.

Minister, '"e are advertising for a new environmental technician 1 I think it is c<~lled, for Iron Ore Companies Operations of La1lrador City and He consider this to be of great urgency. So we are advertisingnow, looking for a suitable person. The second part of the ~ ) ·-~ · · : ~~,. · ~ ... 'lucstion Has - wh>lt 1.ras the second part? HP. 1~1Df.OllT: lncreasin~ staff to monitor more closely the efforts ~m.

CROSllii': Yes, and we are ttving to increase the staff of the depart- ment and He hope to p,et some new positions establishec1. llut even with the positions thnt are estah]ishecl it is clifficult to get mininp; inspectors and properly trained and qualified neople. Rut I regard this as of the highest priority. So I hope "We "Wi 11 be successful. So \~e are endeavourinp: to increase the numbers and to get Tl'ore people for that purpose. !m. SPEAV.ER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. ~!R. J. NOL1'0T: ~lr. Speal,er, a question for the Deputy Premier.

In reference t~ and I asl< this <Juestion of the Deputy Premier • I had intended to ask it if 1 may transf~r it, !·1r. Speaker, to the :Minister of Economic Development. He «as not then in the House, hut he is now. Maybe could re<lirect it,1~ith vour permission. Could the minister supply us with information rep.:ardin~ the numher of companies in }!P.wfoundlancl who have for '~hatever reasons decided to establish their head offices now in Halifax? A supplementary to th<~t also as a matter of interest: Ilm~ many Federal 1896

r n~cPmher 17. 1975 Rll - 2 MR. NOLAN: gov~rnment office~ have moven out of this Province. -- ~--- s;w. in thC' lnst flv<' nr ~lx ve:trs and the\" too havP thP!r head officed in lblifax rather than in Newfonnrl];md whPr!' they were nreviousl v l ~~KFR: The hon. the 'linister of Industrial nevelonment. 110N. .J. t il nR:t:C:AN : Mr. STleaker, the second nart of the question I woulrl say, T could indicate that then' h:1,; hepn a RllhRtanti.al n11mher, unfortunatelv, that h:tv<> rPlocnt(>rl thPir he:tdounrter,; to ll<~lifax or HonctoTl.

TllP r(>~ionnl hPaclquarters seem,; to he in "!ova Scotia rather th:1n in NpHfo~tnnland, as it 1-1as. T am vp_ry unharmv 1lhout th1lt, and J am ,;ure the memhPr eXTlressed the same sentiments. 0n the number of ~omnanies that have their headnuarters moved out of here, l~rp,er comp;mieR, T co11lcl not ~ive the answer to that qu<'!stion but T will take it ilS notice "nd ]ool, jnto it. '1R. Sl'F.AKER: The hnn. the memher for Hincl,;or-Buch1ln~. '1R. r:. F"LT\.11T: ''r.

STlF>al<er. thi~ que,;tton i.,; directed to the hon. thP "intst<"r of ~fines and FnerPv. ft has hePn indicated in his statement anrl to this Pou,;e that th<> contr<~ctR h;tVP hePn let f0r thP. sink:lnl' . of t•>o shafts nn each si~P nf the tunnel. Hnuld the m:ln"t,;ter indicate to whom the,;p cnntr/lc .ts h<tVe hecn 1 <>t? '1ll. ~PF.AKEP: The hnn. the !Hni.stE'r nf "tnp,; "nrl F.n('r~. 'IR. CRO~RIF.: "r. <:neakf'r, vesterrlav T tahJPd 11 list of all snnnlv and C('lnstrnctinn contr;ll'~t,; nn thP f:nll lRlanci nroiPct to ri1lte.

Tf '"e loot: 1lt that ~ve ,,,ill see ,;h<~ft ,;i.nkin~, the r.Pment,.tion r.om!'anv, ~7,489,000. That i" at onP. ,;idE' of the Stra1 t,;: fonndati onR and coll:tr,;, Pi.n,;ent Con,;tructjon, $935,000; shnft sinkinp, on the f.ahrador ,;i.de, r.ementll.tion Comnanv, ~6,420,000. There are some extra conies somewhere here if vou wnnt onP.. ~1R. Sl'EAKFR : The hon, the memher for LaPoile. '-IR. NEARY: Sir, T have a question for the Mini.ster of Industrial nevelnl"mlent.

Would the minister tell the H('luse if thP. ownershiP of Atlanti.c F1Rh l'roce,;sor,; at Marvstnwn has chanped in thF> last fE'M d11.ys, in the last "eE'k or so? ~'R. Sl'F.AKF.P: The hon. the ~inistE'r of Tndnstri;tl OevP.lonment. 1897

Occember 17, 1975 . Tape 732 RH - 3 ~lll. lJJNT>lUr.,\N: The AnSI¥~r is no 1 to mv l<now1P.dre, ~:lr. 1\ut :In future vou could direct a question of th~t nature to mv PStePmed colleap.ue in nshe ries who i.s co-c>rdinating tht!l wit h the )tiniste-r of ''ines and r:nergy and myself ,as far as the facHit:lcs at r.<arystown in the fish aren are conce rne d . 'IR. SP EJ\J\ER: The hon. member for Baie Vertc- ~~ite 1\ay. NR. RIDIWtlT: ~!r . Speaker, I would like to di rect a question to the ttinister of Heal t h . Again it is related to the Easton llepo rt at l.abrador City.

Has the minister's department as yet taken any action with regard to a recommendation of that rep ort to set up an educational prop,rallll1'.e to make employees more a1~are of indus trial diseases in that particular opera t ion? 1898

Decem~er 17, 1975 Tape 733 IB-1 l'T'. SPI"AKF. : The l1on. ''inister of Health. ~'T! . GnLLI NS: l'r. Speaker, in the total area in terms of the health neens and safety nee Cis in mining there is a. group of officials of three or four clepartT"ents presently meetlng: ,;mil the T"tn.i sters wil] he T"eetinP. shortly, and all those problem areas wi]) he considered, anil hopefu]Jv some 1.1a.y f.nunn to :fTT'prnve the situation. ''T'. SPEAKEr: The hon. member for r.onception Ray South (Mr. Nolan). NnLAN: "r. Speaker, t~m quest:fons,if I TT'ay,for the ~'in:!ster of ~'ines and Enerr:y. "T'.

SPEAKF.P.: One at a time,if J may sugf{est. t"'. NnL"JJl: AJJ r:fght. Rut T only mentioned that now hecause I mi p,ht get the second crad in. The first is, last nipht in our debate on the r.LJ"ro takeover there was a question askec'l in reference to how much, ~·hat :f s the interest rate be:f.ng paid to the Ban!<- of Nova Scotia currently . The minister saicl that he would f:fnd out. noes he have the answer nm·r and could he supply it, please? "1', SPEAKEP: The hon. 'fini ster of H:fnes and llnerp;y. Ffl. CPOSRIE: ~'r. Spe,.J-er, you knoH, I am pe>tt:fnr. that information.

The only rea~on it :fs not reacl .:f_ly avai .lable :fs because the interest rate changes every s:fx months. The loan 'Jas a five . year ] oan arrangerl "i th the l\ank of "ontre<>.] in 11. S. no) larS 11.nd the rate of interest cl,anp,e~ every six mont los :fn etccorclance '..t:f th the London Inter-Bank rate t.<hich changes every six months. It goes up and dm.m like a Clop,'s heJJv in the sun. So, they are gettjng me all that :fnfornat:fon ann I ldll have it ~rhen I am conclu<'linv the debate. nr if T h>1.ve :f t sooner than that, then I '~ill g:l.ve it. But I cannot pive it to you rir,ht noH. ~"1'.

ST'EIIK'\": /1 supplementary. ~w. NOLm : Second question, Hr. SpeaJ·er, to the hon. member. J!as he as yet founc 11. sponsor for his upcoming television debate and if so, dill he apply to the lle,.;foundland Book Puhlishinp, r.ompany to - 1'1'. SPF.AKEl': Orcler, please: 0rc1er, please: Mr. NOLAN: -sponsor it for h:fm. !fP. SPEAKT>R: The hon. memher for J"aPo:f l e (}'r. Neary). 1899

nece~her 17, 1975 Tape 733 ~'P. NF.Al',Y: I Hould lj_J<e to ask the 1-'inister of Transportation and romr•mnications, Sir, if he yet has the information concerning th~ nnrgeo airstrip and an airstrj_p for Port aux 1\asques as the Tl'in i ster prom i ~<ec1 1'\e he ~.·ould ~et the other clay? IR-2 1<r1. Sl'~AKF.": The hnn. Hini.ster of Transportatinn and r.nm!l'lmication. "'F • '!m~C.A.l>! : "r.

Speal<er, ~~ith rer,ards to the "irstrip for Rurgeo ~ ·1e .>~.re no¥7 J.ookin? . at, first of aJJ ,establishing, the possihil:fty of estahl:! shtng a lanc1:1.np- pad for helicopters 1and this is !llainly he cause of the renuest from the Burp:eo tm•m coun cj 1. 1-le are looking at that and we are aJ so g:lv:l.ng serious cons:! deration to estahl:f shin!!; ;m airstrip there as well. But first of all, the first priority would he :. heJ:Icopter pac1. """ SPEAKEP: The l,on. !flember for LaPoile (1'r ..

Neary) . '"' NF.A:''Y: I have a cmestion, C:ir, for the Ninister of Finance. l'ouJcl the ndn:fstPr tel 1 the House ~.rhat actfon has heen taken on a stuny that ~.·as clone and the report suhmittecl to the government a few month!' ago hy rlarksnn and Gordon concerning improvement in the rP.!'}stry office and the Registry of Companies and Deeds? Hhat action has the r,overnment taken on that report? >~r. SPEAKI'P: Tl>e hon. l·'in:fster of Finance. ''T' nnonY : T. h;>Ve no such knoHleclJle of any suc lt report, f':lr. I al" CJu:!te sure thllt there !l'ust be nne if the hon. member tells !".e thAt there is.

If it is ~irectea to the - '·'1'. ~JF.,'-,TlY: l 'y usnal rel i:>h]P. source of infnnn~tion. 1 '" nnf'!W: '!'hat is ri p-ht. .~.nother busy bre:qJ<fnf't sess:!on 2t TloJ i clay Inn. I can cl>eck in to it and take it <JS notice but T th:lnk that the Registry of Deeds is really under the jurisdication of the T)P.partment of .lu!'tice. ,.,.. ~T'I'AKI"· 'T'he h.on. ''cT nher for Pogo. (Capt \Iinsnr). CAPT. WINSOR: l'r. Spe11l:cr, Jllay I clirect a CJUe~<tion to the hon. Hinister of En1>cation. Can the min:lster inform t'l-te House whether the governMent is support in[( the Memorial University 1 s reauest or 1900

T:tpP 733 !ll-3 ~n~1re to e~r:~hli~h a ~ou~se in shipbuilrinp and ship reoairs at that unive~sity? • ., !'PF'AY.EP: 'l'he hon . "inistE'r of F.cluc:ttion. T h;we to t11ke thAt as notice. J have heard of it at the unive r sity hut "'e ha v<" not rece1vec' Anv ~equest frol'l the unive.~sity. T Pill tske it as notice and ~ee :1 f my officiall' r eceived anythinr . • ., . SPE!Il<E": Tl•e hon . !l'el!lber fC'r '\a5e '.'erte-HhJte Bay (!'r. !'ideout). MF . "mFfiUT: Hr. SpP.akPr, J ~<'C'uld like to d:l~ect a question to the '"inistcr of JnclustriAl ~tncl nur.-1 ]}evelopment .

C:oul d the ll':lnister tell the llnuse "'hether or no~ the !!Ovemment has taken any position or made any drc1~ion yet ~ep,~rcltng the ~ei~ Products Plant in Bide /ITT"? ''l'. !'PF.JII(f": '!'he hon . ~'inil'tt>r of lndustr1.al ltlld Pur?.l J'levelopment. '~ Ll'N1'l'PJC:AN: "r . Speaker, that :1 s A auesti on pe~ll<lps that should he cl;lrectecl to the t.ear!er of the l'lpposit1.on. In any event "'e have I"AdP a certain level of dec:!.si<'n. ! 11onder :If r can communicate without ~etting into too much difficulty .

The most important interest "-e hilve is that ~·e tdecl to act:lv:~te Rome level of indust r ial rlevelopment, or some type of develop~t :In the community in the best interests of the t·•ork forct- of that COMIII\mJ ty. l~e h11ve nclvise<1 the former owner that •,•e are not •·:lllinp. to participate unless he is able to provide func'in!l h.tm~~el f, to amo~tize the monies which Are 0~1e<1 and also to Malee a fon1a r ~ thrust hjrself . Pe have also harl an overture r.~ade, a ~erious overture ~Y the representativeR of the col"runity and the local 1901

December 17, 1975 Tape 734 PK - 1 MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: business firm, not from the same community, and we are willing to allow those people to use the facilities for a certain period of time if they can indicate to us that they are able to provide some type of development in that community. MR. RIDEOUT: NR. SPEAKER: NR. RIDEOUT~ Mr. Speaker - A supplementary? I thank the minister for a very informative answer. Could he tell me though when we could expect some public announcement with tegard to the Bide Arm situation? MR.

LUNDRIGAN: Yes, Sir, As soon as the local people that were involved in trying to bring this to the fore along with certainly a tremendous effort by the Extension Services at the University, we will be making an announcement and I hope that can be done very, very soon. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment.

First of all I wonder would the minister indicate to the House whether he is aware of the results of a food prices survey just completed by the Company of Young Canadians on the Southwest Coast indicating that food costs there are 40 per cent higher than other parts of Newfoundland. First is he aware of that result, and secondly, is his department comtemplating any action by way of investigating this shocking situation? And what other action the department, his Division of Consumer Affairs,might be taking with reference to this particular item? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. HON. A. J. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may,I did hear it on the air, I think from Grand Bank- I believe it was Howie Hickman, actually, I heard . -and I was rather surprised that any groups,whoever they may be.conduct surveys,whatever it might be - mining or prices - without communicating with our department in any way. And I would certainly like to get a copy of the report)if the hon. member has it.

But I can only take what I heard the announcer say~that prices on the Southwest Coast are 30 per cent to 40 per cent higher, Whether that is factual or not I do not know, I mean I get all kinds of groups coming to me 1902

December 17, 1975 Tape 734 PK - 2 Mr. Murphy: telling me about prices he.re and there, but our department are the ones that do look after the things. And I would appreciate if the han. member knows who this group is,or 1vho they are,or whatever I would like for them to contact our department because I am minister of the department that is charged with the responsibility for consumer affairs.

But literally we could have 5,000 groups in this Province going around, you know, What their authority is, where they get it to go into a store and check prices I really do not, Sir, so my department is entirely ignorant of any surveys other than undertaken by representatives who now, and I may state this to the House,who I am giving identification to in some way,whether it is their picture or something else,that they can go in and ask questions from different department, But as far as the survey is concerned, Sir, I will just say that I did hear it on the air 1I believe from the Grand Bank station that this survey was made and prices were 40 per cent higher or whatever the case may be 0 But that is the only knowledge that the Consumer Affairs Department have of that particular project.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. me~ber for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. I thank the minister for his answer and as he requested I will undertake to see that the two groups will get together, his department and CYC. A supplementary: Has the minister's department done any such survey or does it have any recent information which would either confirm or contradict the findings, that part of the findings that he is aware of 1 that the food prices are substantially higher along the Southwest Coast than in more urban parts of the Province.

Does he have any survey results at hand conducted by his department that would confirm or contradict these findings? MR. MURPHY: ------- This is the latest survey that we had done about one month ago, and I see here Port aux Basques, Creston, Marystown, Happy Valley, but I do not see anything else between Marystown and Port aux Basques so I do not know what was actually covered in Belleoram or 1903

December 17, 1975 Tape 734 PK- 3 MR. MURPHY: any other area in there. But if the member would like I can certainly ~ et a copy of this taken off to give him some idea . It is one that I do retain here for questions. Bu-t if the member is, Hr. Speaker, anxious,or anybody,fo r that matter , who are interested , we have it up to date as far as we can go, and this is just about one month ago, and we are taking another survey after Christmas.

But I will explain, Sir, that there is nothing we can do to roll prices back~only bring it to the attention of the federal authorities who will then step in and take whatever action is deem.ed necessary whatever that may be. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. melllber for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question, Sir, to the Minister of Tourism. Can the minister tell the Rouse the terms and conditions of employment including salaries being made to recruits who are to he flown to the West Indies for replacements for the crew of the Norma and Gladys? Have they been offered 1904

December 17, 1975 Tape ;.,o. 735 ~·fl~ .. Nl'AilY: lifelong employment. ~'ll • Hir.T<EY: There :Ill a verv simple answer to that question, Mr. Speaker, The voyage, I hope, is not lifelong so therefore the tenus of employment would be for the voyage only, just for the voyar,e. Yr. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. SIMMONS: Is it too late to make aoulication for a .:!nh? "P.. HICKEY: No. ~tr. Speaker, a oues tion to the !'in is ter of Tourism.

Tn recent na~spaper artie] es ther"" has been reference to souvenirs allegedly made in ;.,e~rfoundland that are actually starJped, made in Newfoundland or souvenir of l!ewfoundland,but the point I am trying to make, ~'r. Speaker, :l.s tl'at often times they are made in Japan. They are imported items and they are marked souvenir of ~ewfoundland. I ~m wondering,one~how the minister feels about that if there is any rules, rer,ul,.tions, lep;1 slat ion on this llk"ltter,and 1,•hat "'ould he intend to do about it :l.f ;mythinr.? Hr., Sl'F.AKE"P: ~IlL H I_g_KEY: The hon. }11nister of Tourism. ~'r.

Speaker, mv staff and I have discussed thi.s on a number of occasions and we are attemptinr, to determine a list of :1 terns which come into the Province as Ne,vfour_dland souvenirs which :Indeed are made outside. With rep.ards to the hon. member's question as to hmv we feel ahout :lt,obviouslv ~~ "" are not very proud to have a Nev foundland souvenir. made C'utsi.de the Province. Certainly most of the t~inrs,such as dories and this k:lnd of thing, it dces not seem to he realistic for anyone to think thnt it has to he made out!'>ide tht' Province.

He are attemflttng to come. up wit!> a list and from then on posslhlv <mpply thP crafts industry l·.'ith such a list in an effort to correct the situation. ' ~ S P1~J5F.P _:_ The hon. member for T.ewi.sporte. Mr. Speaker, a question for th~ hon. ~'tnister. of Transportation and Col!ll!lunlcat:lons. Has the minister hr>cn in contl'lct •·•i.th thr> CPTC 1.n the past tl·renty-four hours? YP. SPEAKEn: The hon. !finister. of Transportation and Communications. 1905

Tape No, 735 NH- 2 ''" . rnPr.AN: Yc!i, l'r. Speaker, I should not say l h<1ve been in ~ont<!ct hut wh'lt T h'lve done 1 wired them this morning, the Acting rt.nirm<lfl, "r.

P.ovle .''.".·- NEA'PY: T ·lh>~t hr~.ppP.ned to the Ch>~irman? ·~-_'~~All!: -askfr>r that thf' r.nTC inform the l'rnv1nc:ial Government, in t..,i~'> case mv DepArtment nf Conununic:ations, their decis i ons Hitl'< rE'r,ard to the applica .ti.ons file for cable television in thi10 Province, th>~t we be informed of their decisions prior to any public announcment• nnmher one~and~nnmher t,m, prior to the applicants being informated. _t.:!'_· WHlTE: r<r. SnPnker, a !'>upplementary, did the minister receive a reply, ~r. Speaker? >.m.. HORGAN: Not yet, Mr. Speaker. "". ~offiTTF.: Supplementarv - ~m.

SPEAKER: Supplementary, all right the hon. gentleman. · HR. WHITI:: I heard the minister say on television last night that he was going to ask the CRTC to inform the government before informing the successful applicant. I wonder if he could tell us why he wants this Clone? ."'1'. MORGAN: I iuf't said that nm>. Mp. SPEAKF.P. : The hon. member for LaPo·tle. ~'R. NEARY: }ir, Speaker, I would like to put a question to the }'inister of Intergovernmentnl Affairs,! think it is.

Would the minister care tn comment on statements made both inside of this House and outside of thfs House concerninr, thP. linerboard mill ma~agement, especially wtth reference to thP. Chamber of Co111111erce statement ln Stephenville that the linerboard mill is over-managed and that is the reason for t~e troubles in the linerboard mill at the present timei ~m. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. ~. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, whether thP linerboard mill is over-managed or not that is a <JUest:l.on of opinion. What the Chamber of Commerce of Stephenville would base their opinion on I do not knm·Y.

It may 1906

necemher 17, 1975 Tape No. 735 NT-!- 3 ~P. ~ROSBIE: very well be that their businesses are over-managed or under-mana~ed. We are not ~otng about the country criticizing them as to wheth~r they are or are not under or over-managed. As I said in the House earlier, the management of the Labrador I.inerhoa'l!d Limited has had and continues to have tremendot•s problems that are not of their makin~. And therefore the linerboard mill is not a money-making proposition. It is certainly not the fault of the mana11:ement of Labrador Linerhoard Limited. 1t is the fault of the unfeasihilitv of the project from the start.

The concept was not feasible. It is not economically feasible. You cannot have the ><j 11 in Stephenville, depending on 600,000 cords of "~<rood a year comin~ from Labrador,which is impossible to transport and which you cannot cut there anyway in sufficient volume, etc., and so on. I will not RO on to all the reasons. So the reasons that the linerboard mill has to be supported by this government is that it is not economically feasible as it stands. It cannot be,particularly because of the wood and the wood cost situation. Now I do not think that the management out there is perfect.

The management there may need to be improved. I think we all can stand some improvement. But it is difficult to comment otherwise on statements made ~y the Chamber of Commerce of Stephenville,or politicians:or whatever. It is most unhelpful. It is not easy to get top-notch mana~ement people to ·p.o and involve themselves in a career managing a compeny that is in the position of Labrador Linerboard. It is difficult enough anyway to attract people high up in the industry to an operation like that. I consider it to be most unfair.

The han. ~entlemen could well spend their time criticizing me for under·· managing or over-managing it as Chairman of the Board. And that 1907

December 17, 1975 Tape 736 PK - 1 Mr. Crosbie: would be far less discouraging to the people who are out at Stephen- ville trying to make their best with it and do a good job. So broad general statements or criticism of the management of Labrador Linerboard are most unhelpful, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER : I should point out that this 'dll be the last question asked. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: In view of the statements made today, Sir, by the Minister of Social Services I wonder if the Minister of Finance could tell the House what now will happen concerning pensions to railway pensioners, constabulary pensioners, teachers who are on pension, Gander employees and so on who are on pension. Will they now get an increase in their pensions based on the cost of living or has that been postponed indefinitely also. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. ------- RON. W. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, that is a very complex question.

I would like to take that under advisement, and take a note of it, and look into it. There are a great many involved in it, and there are a great many different groups and a great many different situation and some are very complex pension schemes that I would p~efer to take notice of the question and answer it at a later date. 0 0 0 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPRAKER: Time is up. MR . NEARY : What? ----- MR. SPEAKER: The time period is up for Oral Questions. ?1R. NEARY: Oh! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, hetween members of the House it has been agreed that Private Member~ Day be dispensed with today and accordingly I will call Motion 1. MR. SPEAKER : The han. member for St. John's East. MR. W. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this motion,or this matter relates to a resolution put on the Order Paper by the han. Minister of Mines and 1908

December 17, 1975 Tape 736 PK - 2 Mr. Marshall: Energy, and is undoubtedly one of the most important resolutions that has come before this House for some period of time. It is a two-pronged resolution; number one, that this House of Assembly approves the steps taken by the government with respect - its current steps that it has taken,and endorse - the second part - is that it approves the plans announced by the government for future development. And the steps of both, both antecedent and those to come, are set forth in great detail in the statement that was set forth by the Minister of Mines and Energy.

Most of the debate to date has revolved around the first part of the prong - the first part of the fork - and this relates to the provision that the House approve the steps taken by the government with respect to its actions in connection with the development of the Gull Island project to date. With that, Mr. Speaker, I have absolutely no problem in supporting these measures that were taken. We re-took an asset and we got value for it.

The only real amount of dissent, even though most of the debate as I say, in this legislature in the past two days has really centered around the first part of the motion, that is, with respect to steps taken, the only real dissent against actually taking over ,which was the prime thing that the government did, taking over the Churchill Falls,was voiced by the han. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) who described it in his own colourful way yesterday as being scandalous, scurrilous- these were the words he used-scandalous, scurrilous and indefensible, and he also visi~ed these adjectives upon the members of the official Opposition because they had supported this particular takeover. Now I would say that these adjectives could apply in many instances to the official Opposition, but I would say not in respect to this particular step that they took.

All the government in this case did was take over, really, a utility, the same thing as governments have done before in the past, the same thing that was done in British Columbia years ago. I cannot follow the member for Twillingate's (Mr. Smallwood) reasoning when he says that you should not have taken 1909

December 17 , 1~75 Tape 736 PK - 3 Hr . Marshall: it over now, but then concedes in the same tone of voice shortly thereafte r that within t en or fifteen years it might have been all right to take i t over. Then he went on and said, seventy or seventy-five years. No101 it would seem to me if it wer e wrong to take it over now it would be wrong to t ake it over then. Reall y what he is saying is tha t BRINCO should have got ten a fair run of it,to quote his o~~ words, and that BRINCO should have got fair compensation. Uell, Mr. Speaker, BRINCO did get fai r compensation and that is abundantly proven by the fact that the stock market after the takeover of RRINCO's shares did not 1910

Decerober 17, 1975 ~'1? • ~·ARSHALL : Tape 737 IB-1 diminish to any ~reat de~ree. Neither haR this affected in any way the creclit of the "Prov:lnce. /Is I say 1 thi.R iR ~ roatter of really tak:lng over of a utility,and While normally T am not in favour of J!;OVernment involvement :In business, ~•here you have a matter where there is a virtual monopoly w:lth respect to a certain asset agd that, like puhl1.c utilities, telephones or what have you, I thi.nk that a government should be able to take it over.

The only reservation that I had ever hacl about it T•TaS allayecl yesterday by the r<inister of V:lnes and Energy when he in eli c;,ted that the takeover, the $165 mj]J :!on spent T•'<\S spent re :"' ]]y for an asset anc as a result of div:lclends that will be receivecl in a year or two's time, that that w:llJ adequately pay for the- td.Jl return a lot of rooney to the treasury of this Province. So I think it :Is one step that the Rovern~ent has taken that the governwent can be well proud of.

Tt is a rec)f!mat:lon of our natural resources ~Yhich was necessary to be taken, natural resources which are p.;oing to be used for the benefi.t of Ne~vfoundlanders. There is no doubt in my rrind that the project eould not have heen even contemplated at all t-•ith Brinco :f_n charr:e, because l'lr1nco had the option ~or:l. th respect to future pmver development in J.abrador, and while they hatl this option until the micl 1980 1 s there ••11s absolutely notb:lng that could be done.

Certainly the p.;overnment could refuse to p.rant them,anrl n:lcl refuse to p:rant them 1various leases thl't they remdre<'l or they reoueste<'l. Ilut by the same token they did have it tied up in 11n option and p:overnment had no a1ternat:lve. f'n t·ri th respect to the steps taken I think :l t ~,•ill be to the eternal cre<'lit of this government in the years to coJre that it had the courap,e and the gn!'1pti.on to take the step it cid.

And the lY" ay it took it, it took it not by expropriation, not by seizing it from llrinco, hut hy way or ar,reement and th<" proof of the purlding, T say~ that Rr:lnc" was pa:ld a reasonable co.mount is its share structure in the stock market for a month or so afterwarcls, it sho~'s that they 1911

n~ce~her 17, 1975 Tnpe 737 III-7 t'T'. ~!AP.SIIALL: r.ot renJlv fOC'Ic' vaJne for it. Thejr shnres cl:ic1 not p:o up !mt neither <1 it1 thev r:o d01·m. So, "r. ~penl·-er, T RM nC'It r;o:lnr, to spend my time thoup!-1 \ t:tlkjn?- ahout the ll1:>i.n p<"rt of the l'lotion bec11nse 1t is the second part T ,.,ant to clwelJ on. 1 r11ther fee], "r. Spee~ker, that it is r<".t11er "' p:i. ty tlJ:Jt the. speakers tC'I elate have not seen ,,,hat I consi<'er to he the ~nflt si.f!Tli ficant part of the statefTlent tM<'e l•y the hon. Minister.

This 1s the statement and ft is a - T mjpht just As ''ell '"'Y H frol'l the fjrst that I 1'1M very skeptical 11hout the measures that t11:tve he en envj sagec1 and h<tve heen tal ked P.hout ns j:!'Overm'lent po1 i.cy he cause ">hilt "'e are dehatfnr. here js a statel"ent, never mind the mP!'I cul pns that the opposite sit'!e was putting up with respect to their fnnner .'lctlons, but :l.t :1 s a statement, the most fmportant stater.>ent,or nne of the most :i.Mport;mt statements, surely, that has heen presentee' to this Hnuse ;~s to government policy with respect tC'I the c'eve.lop!Tlent of the C:ulJ Island project,1d.th -..espect to cleveloprnent of the power ret:onrces in Labrador, and when ••e vote fnr this !'lotion we vote tn ;~ccept this statement.

So tl->e fact of the T!'ntter j s, :l.f you vnte for the motlon you l1ave to accept the statement. Now, the -,..'hoJe g:fst of this st;~tement, and T think the most important part of it, is contained nn pap:es 4lf and 47. Befol:'e T rea(! that I w:l.ll just paraphrase ex11c.tly v.·hat T m'l skeptical about. You know,it "'as not mentioned "y the T'l<>f'lbers on the nppns:lte si<Te hardly at <1l]. I do not thin!< the Lear1er of the Opposition menti.e>ned it. If he elf c1 he just turne.:l it off.

That i.s the f1'1ct that ,,>hat bothers Me is that ~re are spenfllng, Pe are conteT"plat:fn[! spen.c1:1.nr, up to $55 milJion fn the next f:lnandal year. Pe are comte1"1pJatinr, spending that without the source of the pn•,•r?.r for these transmission 1 :lnes that are contemplate<' to be bui] t 'havinr heen secure<' frol'l TT~rclro Onehec and 'O.•:Ithout the financing hav:l.np; been guaranteed Now page 44 of the statell1ent of t:he hnn. 1"1inister that he rea<' r>o!"e t'O.'O or three ~.·eeks ar,o says., and T quote, "After 1912

December 17, 1975 Mr. Marshall. Tape no. 738 Page l - mw careful consideration of all the facts Government decided that the transmission line option is to be preferred over the oil-fired thermal/nuclear alternative,provided a reasonable arrangement for the supply of additional energy required from Churchill Falls can be negotiated with Hydro-Quebec and provided adequate federal support is forthcoming. " Now that is an excellent statement, a logical statement to go ahead with the transmission lines provided we get the source of power from Hydro Quebec and provided that we have the necessary financing.

Subsequently on page forty-seven of the same statement, forty-six and forty-seven.- I am going to quote this again because it is very important, Mr. Speaker - the minister says: "The government has therefore concluded that it should continue work on the transmission lines terminals and tunnels, but that they should be spread over a longer period for an in-service date of January 1,1982. instead of January 1, 1981.

Government has also decided that pending receipt of assurances from the Government of Canada,regarding aid for the project and the negotiation of a suitable agreement with Hydro-Quebec for the supply of energyfromChurchill Falls, expenditures and commitments from the project will be kept to the minimum possible consistent with an in-service date for the line of January 1, 1982.

Further explanation of that in the next paragraph says: "A reduced programme in 1976 will enable the Province to keep its expenditures on the Gull Island project down to an amount not exceeding $55 million a year." Consequently I read this statement, Mr. Speaker, as stating that if we approve this resolution, we are approving the possible expenditure of $55 million this year regardless of whether we have the approval from Hydro·Quebec for the electricity, for the power, or whether we have the financing arranged.

As I say, as I read it, I will have to say this; the Minister of Mines and Energy, in his statement, has given a very clear and very concise and full and honest statement of the situation. He speaks in the statement about the risk being taken, and there is no 1913

December 17, 1975 Mr. !1arshall. Tape no. 738 Page 2- mw attempt whatsoever of doing anything but bringing the full facts forward, and I think he should be complimented for it. 'Vhile one may not agree always with him from time to time, at least we can compliment the hon. minister for having the courage and the fortitude to put forth his view without beclouding them in any way. I trust, as I know, that other members will be given the same opportunity to express their views. Now, !1r.

Speaker, the issue here is clearly very, very clearly >vhether we should expend $55 million before we have the agreement from Hydro-Quebec and before we have the financing arranged. That is the total issue. Nothing was said on the other side of the House about it - to date that is. I can understand why.

I can understand why the former Premier, with good faith,certainly, as all good men have good faith, who practiced for years "Develop or "Perish" in this Province 1 or the Leader of the Opposition who also was associated with it,'l.nd who in this very session of the House has turned around and said he sees nothing ~1rong ><ith the philosophy of "Develop or Perish", or the amount of the debt doo•. s not really bother him, the size of the debt. I can see why they could not develop or spend too much time on this issue. As a matter of fact, I think to all intents they ignored it. I cannot say the same thing, Mr .

Speaker, tltough for the gentlemen of the press in this Province. It is ah,rays um,ri se to talk about the press, because they too get it distorted- I suppose everyone has feelings .. but I have not yet seen, although this has been before the public for about two weeks now, I have not seen any comments in the press that this is really the issue. If there is,and if an individual has I will be only too happy to retract that remark, but I have not really seen it. It certainly has not been dealt with the same regard of seriousness that I think it merits and warrants. Mr.

Speaker, before I get on to say what I want to say, I want to emphasize very clearly, and make it quite clear, that I am not against the development of the Lower Churchill. Now I say this because when I spoke in another debate with respect to the inadvisability 1914

December 17, 1975 llr. Marshall. Tape no . 738 Page of industrial developm .ent where the source of the raw materials 3 are not here in Newfoundland , some people here in the House, either because they did not hear or did not choose to hear, I do n.ot know, interpreted that as saying that I vas against industrial devel opment, which is an entirely different thing in saying you are aga.inst industtial 1915

!lecember 17, 1975. HR • HAT: SHAJ,L: Tape 73<] P.E - 1 rlev~lopment where the source of raw materials are not here. So I want to make it abundantly clear right here and now,if I had to write it on the walls,that I am for development of the Lower Churchill, Mr. Speaker, if the cost of that project,or substantially all of the cost,can be recovered over reasonable time from consumers of that power. Now it does not mean that in ten or twenty years-of course,the consumer has to pay for the power - but it has to mean that the project itself is to be self-sustaining.

But I do not think any bon. gentleman here disagrees ~vith that premise,because the demand must justify his project and if it does not it would become, if you do not have substantially all of it being paid by consumers, it will become an unmanageable burden on this Province, cutting into monies othenvise needed for essential services!such as education and what have you,of future generations. So let us make it <]Uite clear,and I do not think I am at odds with anyone when l say t 1lis,thnt any project of this nature has to be self­ sust~inin?-· So while I agree with the development of the Lower Ch~1rc~ill, ~'r.

Speaker, I hnve great and serious reservations with respect to the spend:l.nr, nf anv further monies on this project until and unless 1 firstly, :m nr.reement hns heen concluded and si~ned Hith llyclro-Quehec satisfactorv as to price, satisfactory as to flUantity 1tnd term,and indeed whether l'v..lr.o-nuehPc j" r.rdnp: to 11ctmll 1 y snppl y the 'POwer. Look, when we originally envisaf'"erl t 11is rlevelopment we talked about the development of power and the source was to be on Gull Island. No>r ~ve are going ahead with transmission lines and He agree that there wi.ll have to be a postponement on the Gull Island.

He say our source now is not to be Gull Island but it is to he Hydro Quebec. I, Nr. Speaker, feel that these, before ~55 millions of dollars are spent - AN HON. MD!BER: Is there a quorum, Mr. Speaker? !·'~. SPRAKER : nruer, please! Order, please! Call in the mewbers. !!R. MARSHALL: If I may continue then, l'r. Speaker, I say that before we spend this - NR. SPEAKEJl (Dr. r:ollins): Orcler, please! I would ask the clerk 1916

necember l7, J075. Tape 73Q RH - 2 first to count the House. A quorum i,s present, so the hon. fllemher may continue. MR. HARSHAJ,J.: Mr . S[.leaker, I assume the quorum count should be deducted from the time 1 becaus e 1 am goin~ to need all of my time this afternoon.

Sut anyway, Mr. ~peaker, before I say t suggest before the $55 million is spent, I feel quite strongly that firstly there ought to be an a~reement or comnitment f rom Hydro-Quebec satisfactory as to the price , quantity and term of the power to be supplied and this must he at least\ohviouslv 1 of course,competitive or equal to the projected cost of the r.eneration of the Gull Island power. The second thing we must necessarily have, ~lr . Speaker, as far as J am concerned 7 is satisfactory financing and terms.

There must be-and this must he a commitment, I would su~est, and not ~enerally a gene~alization from the rederal ~overnment that 1 t is goinJ!; to spend billions on power. If so I ~ould like to knoH on what terms 1 and who is it to be spent for? Are they to ~ive us money for the development of ~ewfoundland ano Labrador 1 or are they to give us money for the development of power so it be used throughou t the nation, bec ause I very much fear, 'lr .

Speaker, that when the national interest is concerned in Ot tawa and the Federal Government, the national interest docs not extP.nd much fu rther than Quebec and Ontario . I think people on East and l·l~st all find that. Also, ~lr . Sr>e>tker, we havP. to know the terms . On pa~e thirty-six of the statement it is mentionP.rl that 1917

necember 17, 1975 Tape No. 740 IDI- 1 1-!R. }1ARSH!ILL: ~Vi.th respect to the efforts to obtain financing 7that the government would have preferred not gi,ving any equity but from "the Province's point of view, receipt of aid from the federal government in the form of e~uity is not attractive as receiving aid in the form of grants. It i.s clear that the federal officials were not enthu~iastic about grant~ for the project~ They want equity. Nm"1 vou knm.,, that is something I would say that we would have to consirler verv, very carefully.

As a Newfoundlander,to me,it is not that much different in giving power away to nuebec, in giving really power a~oJav to the federal government,or giving our natural resources that we hought back. So I think, '!r. Speaker, it fs not really unre.asonable to ask the government to uait until what appear to be essential prerequisites are secured before we proceed. I really feel, Mr.

Speaker, in my o~m bones, that that is absolutely necessary, that ~Je must take enough time to be sure at least that ~Je are making a calculated move rather than taking a gamble or a risk ,and a gamble or a risk ~1e will be taking and that is quite plainly ~et forth in the paper. Now T. say this, }'r. Speaker, the arguments for taking a risk to me,that 1 have heard to date~have a ring to me of urgency, of fatalism and almost desperation. They appear, as far as 1 am concerned, to overstate the points be:lnp, raised. As a matter of fact, Nr.

Speaker, no•,• I know full well the necessity of power as we all do~but T sometimes '"onder if ,.,e l,ave the prnblem nf providing power in the last quarter of the twentieth centurv out of all proportion. I have to say,and I regret to say,that the st<ttements that have been made, such as there is no future for this Province, He must be content, there is no future for the province unless we develop the Lower Churchill, unless lJe go ahead ~·71th it and spend the $55 million, that is one of the justifications for the statement.

There were other statements made, l>l eufouncHand •rill have little or no possibility of ~rm~th or expansion, 1918

neeember 17, 1Q75 Tape No. 740 Nl-1 - 2 ~. ~ARSHALL: it may not be exactly but essentinllv wtnt the ~~inister of Hines and Energy said. And subsequently later on, Hr. Speaker, jt was said this would be

an act of faith in the Province. There l~ere admonitions granted th:1.t if we do not take the chance ve may have to accept a role lJe do not like,and so on. Now these have a ring to me, Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned,of the type of psycholop,y,if you like, that was practiced before with respect to "Develop or Perish" in this Province. Now that HaR a philosophy that we all knolJ. 'Ne all kno~• l~hat "Develop or Perish" mean. The name of the policy itself really suggests it and it ·~ as pract:lced bv the previous administration freely.

And it l~as practiced "ith men of good will, men liho felt that by takinp; these steps that this Has the very best thin~ to be done for this Province, and the opponents of it were against it and the opposite part of it instead of develop or perish is develop or grow, weigh and walk, plan and propser, or what have you. But l~hat it really means is taking one's time.

I think the best expression of "Develop or Perish" came from the mouth of the hon. member for Twillingate yesterday when he was talking about the Upper Churchill-that there is no need of as far as I am concerned to go into here, because the important thing is not what went on in the past but what we are going to do in the future - but when he was justifying the Upper Churchill and he said, "Look at all the jobs, $121 million, 21,000 men emploved in construction jobs," and that was a part of the psychology that the hon. gentleman believes in,I kno•~,and what he led )lewfoundland towards,and you just ask yourself the question ri~ht nm~, lt m1ght have been 7.1,000 .1ohs,although I do not knm,• whether that was exa~~erated or not, but take it as glven, there are not 21,000 jobs nm• and one of our heritages, one of our basic herita~es with a benefit of Hindsighttas I say,have gone off to Rydro-ouebec and we have lost million~ of dollars,as the Hinister of :"'ines and Energy has indicated in his statement yesterday.

So it is a lon~ term, 1'r. Speaker, that WP. have to be considering and we have to consi.der very, very hard and very, very much whether or not we should he expendinp this $55 million tdthout these t:l~o basic 1919

December 17, 1')75 Tape No. 740 m'- 3 11r.. ~'JI.l'.Sl!ALL: · understandin~s having been come to. }low I do not think ~·e should. T sav quite frankly T do not think thnt we should be spending S55 l'lillion until He are al,solutely sure that He have a good and feasiblf' contract from f)ueh.ec-Hydro, untU ~~e are absolutely sure th<~t ''e have our financing arranr,ed. ~'P. NF.Ar:Y: ('orne over here. 1920

December 17, 1975 ~m. }'APSPALL: Tape 741 No, t ~o not need to go over there because pnother thing that this government hroup.-ht, ~'r. Speaker, that the peop] e outsi.r'le of t.h1.,; cl,amber are enjoying s:l.nce the turnover is freedoi!' of speech, a.ncl ue enjoy it in the House as ~>ell as we enjoy it outside. I am not in the cabinet 1:1nd t have the r:! ght to speak about something that is really, really hasic 1as far as I am concernecl. It causer'! me a IB-1 great deal of concern from reading over the statement and contemplating the position we might he getting ourselves into. Now, }forgan and Stanley, "r.

Speaker, reference was mAde to ~'organ an<! Stanley, for instance, the financial agents. tn the statement jt vas implied .,if not snid di.rec.tly, but I think :i.t is taken a.s Agreed, that the financial experts have said that Newfoundland cannot clevelop it on it,; m,'11. llP.fore it develops it on its own, it has got to have assurances ,.~~th respect to a completion guarantee. Hhat they mean hy that,of course,is they have got to be assured amon~st other thinp:R that the prC'ject can be not only huHt.but that i.t can be financed.

Surely if the people who are talkinp: about arranging the financing, if the finanders require this particular reouirement to be Met, snre] y ..,,e oup:ht to, too. v1e should at J ea.st make sure tha.t the fina.ndnp, is secure<'. nther st.8tel:'ents that have been m?.c"e :in defense of the ~penclinp: C'f ':55 mi 11 ion th~tt J have ~een - J r'0 not kno~.; whether here or 011tside tl'e ~h.flmher -· is thAt nnehec rdl .l have c.ontroJ. Nm•1, Hr.

Spe;~ker, T do not ;.ccept th;:tt. nnebe>c t•ri J 1 not h:1ve control unless vie p;ive it c.ontrol. '~'his r;overnT'lent j s to he compJjmentec1 for t?kinp: bad: controJ fro!'l fore:lp,ners. "'e rio not give it to (luebec 1 which is reaJJy, although Fe are 1"1e!"bers of the smne cc-tmtry, it is a foreign stnte a!l it ~cere. Jt is MothPr province. This pm·~er c.:m be useil perhaps - t·7E' rlo not knoF - i.r the not to dist;;nt future T'1ayhP this pm;er can be usee" in other t··ays. ''aybe :it can be usec1 in J.ahraclor t·~here the reE'onrces of this J'rC'vince should be <1edicatec' to if at nll possible.

There Fas reference !1'ac'e yesterc'ay to the :improveil 11'ethoc1 of ice-hreakinp and the openinE of Labrador to col"'11erce . There i.s a

~er.embet 17, 1975 "R. I'.A.RSHALI.; Tape 7lo1 profP.ssor loere at Nemorial Hho h as a] re>ac'y r~aCie an invention o;,.,j tl1 rcspe>c:t to tloe r'ivi s5on of :tee. Pe crone to see me one t:fl"P. about six or eif"ht montl•s ar;o Fith a Clevice that has been patenteC'. It IB-2 is not one of thc>se fly-l 1y-nirht flrlventures. This ViiS hrour;ht :In to the provinc:iDl povern!"ent m•c'l T a£sume that the vrnvincial government is fnllowinp it throuph.

So there are all sorts nf possibilities that connote - and it c'lnes not mean that ~"e have to, as I say, ai'opt any poUcy 0f panic,or any c'levelop or perish,or any vestige of it,as f:;r .~s I al'! concerneif,and sit il.oFn anc sav, "Oh, Quebec will ilictatP. our fnture control of our resources. Oh, if we do not get it this Province js Clool'lec' to mediocrity. Oh, we must show thel'l tl1:1t ,.re are serinus hy goinp al,eac1.JJ You knnP, surely to heavens w• loave shown the feC'en!l pnvernl"ent ~re are serious by taking over Rrinco. 'T'hat if' as mt1ch as we nee<". So in ~"Y oninion, ~·r.

Speaker, this really does not basically justify tl'e pol'lition of the expenc'li.ture of $55 million without at 1P.Ast these t•·o prere<nlisites be:l.ne founc'l. Now perhaps we need also - I am not r,oinp, to go much off that theme, because that is the basic thinr; that J want to sily,;~n~ I find if yon S<'~Y other things they get _iumb1er up sometimes -but perhaps we c'to neec1 in certa:l.n cases here to 1 in this particular instance, to take. <1 lank <'ITiyY.'aY, to stop for a l'lornent anc' to consirlP.r.

There have been many, many changes that have occurrecl. 'F'j rst of all '!o."e cannot c1eve1 op the GuJ 1 site i'.t the present, so '!o.'e are talk:l.np: :l.nsteat1 of supp]vinr- pot~er, to purcl1af'e power or what have you. Perloaps we need to look at the feasibility of it.

I would 1H:e the minister perh"p!' wl>en he is closi.np: the c'lebate to arlrlress himseJf to the fact that -and it is not a criticism of the ~overnment, "r. ~pealrer, :It :is not re<'.lly a criticism of anyone~hut it :Is a fact at' J 1 fe - the report here tlpon wh:!.ch ,._,e acteC' - and the government :;lways acts on feas:ih:ll:lty reports- put the pro .iect as beinr- $1.1 million in February of 1()74. It haR now escalatec'l to $2.3 million- AN RON. MEMBF.F: R:! J Hon. 1922

Tare 741 !'l' . }IAFSHAJ L : r Am !'C'rrv hHJ 1.on' YP.A . The 1,1.]) ions bojl~le mv m1nrl st1ll)hut we know it hAs accele r ate~ r r e~tly. ~o~. when this report ~1as "C".a<lc on pare 72 of the report 1 t says, "The capital cost estilll:Jt.<>s And annual co s t tlerivae1on shO'-'Tl in this report 1nclucle an aJ).owmce of :Inflation . .,.he escnll\t:lon pro5ec-ts are use<! as a result of an anaJvsjs of historical treorls 1n~1ca te<~ in Statistics rnnac!11 indexes .

" So, in other wnrrls, rhen,they flicl talte into account I! certain amount for :Inflat ion . 'Mlere is obviously, you 1-now, there IB-3 .is a y.re11t appreciation in the cost wl1ich I think merHs and warrants m: an~'Way takiny ca ve-ry l"UCh closer look at it . J \muld also Jfke to vnow what effect, :If any, the non -realization of various industries - they use t he a~JfuJ phrase in this report of tri.ggerinn :Industr ies . F.very report develops its o~'tl ia,.pon.

They talk about, they emphasize, it seP.~s to ~e,to a re<~sonll~l e a~ount, even though they say it is necessary for our rlomesr:lc conslll'lption :In the 191!01s, they 1923

December 17, 1975 Tape 742 PK - 1 .'!E.. Marshall : do emphasize on page nineteen of the report that, you know, customers- a cement plant, a chlorine caustic soda plant, an oil refinery, a petrochemical complex, a pulp and paper mill, an aluminum reduction plant, Now we know there is no likelihood now in the foreseeable future of another oil refinery. }{R. NEARY: How do you know that? MR. Mft.RSHALL: Well,I mean 1the other oil for refinery is in grave difficulty, Obviously we are not going to put - MR. NEARY: So what? MR. }'!ARSHALL: I would not assume lve are going to put up another, you knmv, MR.

NEARY: Volkswagen was in difficulty last year, but they are surviving. MR. MARSHALL : Maybe so, but Volkswagen is an entirely different thing. All right. Well, you know, how do we know? Well, let us put it this l·ray, Mr. Speaker, for the hon. genleman' s sake, it is a little bit less sure now than it vas then. The petrochemical plant is a little bit less sure than it was then. And the question that I as asking is, lvhether or not these industries, whether this project is really dependent on these industries and what is the fate really of these industries?

The other question, and the final one that I would like to bring to your attention with respect to this report, is that when Churchill Falls lvas taken over, see, it was envisaged that before the final project release there would be $14 million expended, and that is what you judge your risk on, $14 million was to be expended before the final project release. Now inflation and one thing or another has gotten jt up to $39 million, and we are not at the stage of authorizing the final release we may have $90 million or $100 million in this particular project, }!r. Speaker, before we can authorize the 1924

December 17, 1975 Tape 742 PK- 2 }tr. Marshall: final release. We may have to haul hack then. One thing that I am very, very sceptical and concerned about it what happens if we get in the condition - and God in Heaven! The public debt of this Province is high enough so I do not think that we can gamble - ~ut what happens if we get into the position that we have so much money in that we cannot afford to get out, and on the other hand we cannot afford to go ahead, we cannot get the money. Now what happens there? Three or four things can happen. Obviously you are faced with a disaster,number one.

But number two,what I suggest will probably happen,we will be in a position then- you talk about them taking us seriously- we will be in position of the federal government and Quebec-Hydro, possibly being able to hold us up for ransom. I mean, we are tying a rope around our neck by making an investment of this nature to take this particular risk without the other prerequisites having been determined. Now I could say a lot more about this, Mr. Speaker, but I think it would tend to confuse the issue. And I have given this matter a great deal of thought, a great deal of thought.

And I have to say that,with a great deal of regret, with a great deal of regret, you know, I find myself unable to concur with a gamble or a risk of this nature. I really cannot vote for this particular resolution unless it be amended to provide that no further monies will be expended until and unless Quebec-Hydro have entered into a satisfactory agreement and until and unless s atisfactory fiscal arrangements have been made. MR.NEARY: You can move an amendment. ---- MR. MARSHALL: Just a second now. Now I have very much reluctance in doing this, Mr. Speaker.

As I say, and,you know,I say this that as far as this government is concerned I have been a good supporter of this government,and I have done as much as anybody in my time as anybody on the front benches, anybody on the back benches,to bring the government to power. Now I do not say I have done any more than anybody else 1but 1925

necember 17, 1075 Mr :_J'ia_rshall: I say I have donP. as much as anyhody else. PK - 3 Now I am put in this position of heing faced with to me, which is as obvious as the nose on anybody's face, and I mean it is not as if the hon . Minister of Mines was trying to hide it. He put it in the statement and nobody saw it, nobody seei!U!d to see it. llut I a .m not able to go along with a rist: of $55 million of a gamhle any more than I could have, I am afraid~on the other side of the House when I was criticizing it. No~~ where does that leave me, see?

You do not vote with the Rovernment , so you have got to vote with the Opposition . I would like to make it quite clear:whichever way I vote, Mr. Speaker, I am not voting with the Opposition . I am being put in a position on this I cannot vote with the government because they are threatening to put $55 million at risk 1 and the alternative is I have to vote with the Oppositi on which would put $55 million plus every single year at risk if you take the statements made by the Leader of the Opposition in this House recently to the affect that he sees 1926

December 17, 1975 . MR. MARSHALL : Tape 743 Rll - 1 nothin~ wrong with develop or perish,to the effect he doee not care about the public deht. So it is a very onerous position in which I find myself. At the time when the bud~et debate went through I said that I feel that every person in this Po use, the backbenchers, 'vhatever side- different with Cabinet, People in the Cahine.t are bonnd by Cabinet solidaritv.

Cabinet secrecy - that ue have pressing problems with us, really heavy,pressinp: problems that re~uire a person to exercise their own judgment and as far as 1 am concerned I have to exercise my own iudgment. All I am asking the p,overnment, 1 ask and bep, and implore the government to postpone any further payments than necessary on the Low~r Churchill. \-Then I say then 'necessary' I confine them to the amounts you have got to pay to get out of contracts already entered intc until: (

a) a satisfactory agreement has been obtained with Hydro-Quebec, and (

b) suitable financing has been absolutely p,uaranteed,and that there is a complete - because I think we are going to need it, Mr. Speaker. I know this will he done anyway because this is the way the government operates - but there certainly should he a complete assessment that with the new agreement with Hydro-Quebec, taking its terms and the financing and any other change circumstances since the projectwas envisaged, a guarantee, of course, that it is fully and absolutely feasible. :-low, I feel there are peon]e in this House who agree with me.

Whether there are or whether there are not, what they say in the future debates I cannot help. But all I can say, Hr. Speaker, is this, that $55 million put at risk,with the debt of the Province being as it is,is something that I cannot - and without these prerequisites being met - is something that I cannot go along ~1ith blindly. The situation is too serious in this Province for this and I do not feel that we can do it. That does not say I am a~aint development, Mr. Speaker.

That does not say I am against the Lower Churchill. !111 I am asking for is a post­ ponement unt'il these two or three prerequisites are made. I am afraid, as I say, that we will be getting this Province in a hole. You are taking about an expenditure that,dear Heavens~is going to double or triple the 1927

December 17, 1975. MR. MARSHALL: Tape 743 RH - 2 debt of this Province. All I am afraid of is that we are going to get in so far that we cannot get out. We cannot go ahead unless we make other concessions.

I am afraid that, I do not want to see - to coin a little play on words - that this powerful policy of the government,which is a policy that one can endorse wholeheartedly the steps that they have taken up to now, that I have to say that even though the government is very wise in its decisions from time to time, I cannot go along ~-rith sticking out our heads like this for fear that the power ~Jill cause a shock to the economy of this Province that is going to be felt by people for generations yet to come. Now, I do not see, Mr.

Speaker, why there cannot merely be an amendment to provide this, to amend the resolution would be perfectly satisfactory. But I understand I do not think it can be given. AN HON. ~!EMBER: Permit a question? .lffi.. IU\RSHALL : No. I am making my point. That is what I am do~ng. I am making my point as I have made them heretofore. I want to say this, that - I would like to say this in closing, next to closing anyway, that as far as the statement goes,and I reitereate it again, I appreciate the state- ment, the frankness with which it has been made, the fact that it is pointed out that we have a risk.

I certainly compliment the Minister of Hines and Energy for giving the full, complete and absolute facts and spelling them out i.n black and white for all to see. I do not agree that there is any relationship whatsoever between the risk that BRINCO took to develop the Upper Churchill and the fact that we should take anything near the same risk because of our public debt, because government is much different from a public company and what have you. There are many, many reasons. I do not agree that there is that analogy.

But certainly I cannot agree with jeopardizing the future generations. tlow the hon. the Hinister of Mines and Energy when he made that statement, when he first started off,he said if this was not passed that the p;overnment ~vould resign and he waul d resign ~and certainly that is the last thing, Nr, Speaker, in this world that I would wish to see. 1928

necernher 17, 1975 Tape No. 744 N!"f - 1 ~m. YARSHALL: But T he~?; and implore them to see the situation as I Ree it. I ask them to recognize the fact that as a representative, a representative of a district in N'e~•foundland,that T myself cannot agree with this position th11t has been taken up for the expenditure of $55 million before 1-;e are completely and absolutely sure as to the agreements 1•:l.th Hydro-Ouehec and ~1i.th respect to financing.

Anything else as far as I am concerned is a garnble,as :It said in the paper, is a risk, smacks of 1 develor- or perish',is tantamount of the similar pol:!.cy adopted by the han. members there opposite which they still do not see anything wrong. God help ~leHfoundland 1 f thev ever get in paver ar,a:l n and able to practice it 1·:holesale! This 1s just one isolated i.nstance. As 1 sav, Mr.

Speaker, :In conclusion, that this is not the easiest thing for me to make a statement lilre this as a person IJho has been associated t-ri.th the Prop,ress:lve Conservative Party for a long period of time, and ~nll he for many, many years in the future. But, ~·r. Speaker, T cannot and I 1•ill not be able to vote with the government hecause of that part of the statement, because we are putting $55 mi.llion at risk where ~'e ought not to. '!JL SPEAKER (nR, C()LLINS2_:_ The han. member for LaPoile. 'fR. NEARY: No harm to say, Sir, that this debate so far has taken an unusual course.

First we heard from the Hinister of l1ines and Energy,who in mv opinion, Si.r, provided tl1e House Nith a great numher of facts and a lot of detailed information in connection w:lth the development of the l,o,.er Churchill, th~ construction of the tunnel across the Straits of Belle Isle and the construction of the transmission line, The minister :Is to be commendec, Sir. I have been in this han. House for fourteen vears now, this is my fourteenth year, r,oing on fourteen vePrs 1 and the minister is to be commP-nrled. It is not too often, ~- 1 r.

Speaker, that I find myself tn a posi tton -.;.1here I have to conr,ratulate the "inister of ><ines and F.ner11:y. l<e have had our little sparring sessions in this han. Rouse, Sir, and we have had our 1929

J necemhpr 17, 1975 Tape No. 744 ID1- 2 •m . NEARY : disa~reements. hut in this particular instance, Sir, T thfnk that the minister ·~as ~enuinely and sincerely interested in providinr: the House 1Jith all the infonnation that he could so that the Members, the elected representatives of the people, could Make up thei.r minds ~rhich ••av thev 1vere 11;oing to vote on this resolution. I re a lly believe the minister ~Jas quite p.;enuine, Sir, in puttin~ the information at the fingertips of the hon. members of the House, because it is a very, very important matter, Sir, as far as the House is concerned.

T.t is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that He are debating it e:l.ght days before Christmas. It is too important a matter, Sir, it is the kind of an issue that .ve should be takin!!; our time, that we should be gettin!!; proba"hly more information from the minister in connection with the various aspects of the three­ pronged project, the development of the Lower Churchill, the construction of the transmission line,and the tunnel. T think it is the duty of every member, Sir, of this hon.

House to participate in this debate,and if they feel in their heart that they do not have sufficient information to vote according to the dictates of their conscienc~,then thev should ask the minister some ouestions, either put the quest:l .om: on the Order Paper or put the questions to the ~linister of Mi.nes and Energy direct, as the Leader of the Opposition did when he spoke in the debate. The Leader of the Opposition, Sir, unlike the other two rentlemen who have spoken in this debate,did not take a position.

The official,or lvhat J sometimes refer to as the old guard Liberals, so far, Sir, have not put forward a position. The Leader of the Opposition did some fancy figure skating. He waltzed all over the place. He put some questions, and they ~~ere very good questions,mind you, put 1930

Wednesday, December 17, 1975, Tape 745, Pa~e 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: some verv good Questions to the Minister of Mines and Energy hut did not, Sir, and I was hoping after two-and-a-half hours and holding the Old Professor himself up until eleven thirty last night, I was hoping that before the Leader of the Onposition took his seat that he would have told the House what the position of his party is on this resolution. One thing that we can say, Sir, for the Old Professor is that there is no doubt about it,he still has the old policy and the old flag,and he left no doubt in anybodv'

s) mind where he stood on this matter of developing the Lower Churchill. Like my hon. f'l!'iend from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), I do not think, Sir, the hon. member left any doubt in anybodys' mind, any member's mind in this hon. House,where he stands on this matter.

It does not necessarily mean that we have to agree with both bon. gentlemen,but unlike the Leader of the Opposition, and I am hoping that a spokesMan for the official Opposition in this House - I think it is their duty, Sir - I am hopin~ that a spokesman will tell us sooner or later, before this debate is over, what their oosition is on this imoortant matter. Or are they just going to olay the same game as they played during the forced takeover of Churhcill Falls, and that is, to remain silent, to have their lips sealed?

I will tell you that up to that point,one of the most frustrating experiences that I have had in this hon. House was when I sat on the government side as a backbencher for about five and-a- half or six years. Those were the most frustrating years that I have had. But I think the thing that topped those years of frustration was when we were bound to silence. ~ROWE: Complete bull. MR. NEARY: It is not hull, Sir. We were bound to silence.

We were told we were not to comment on the forced takeover of the Churhcill Palls Corooration,and for weeks, for weeks, Sir, there was complete silence from the official Liberal Opposition. The leaderkept saying that he was going to make a statement every day. Finally they offered him time on television 1and I,like my colleaRUes 1931

December 17, 1975, Tane 745, Pa~e 2 -- anb MR. NEARY: in the caucus,were glued to the television set that night ex'[)ecting to hear the official position of th£> Liberal Part~ and all we ~ot then was a few questions. No statement of '[)olicy, no stated '[)OSition, .iust questions put to the government! Nine chances out of ten the gentleman knew the answer to the questions anvway,because he had been hauled out of here in the wee hours of a mornin~. I do not remember the exact date but the BRINCO nlane arrived down at St. .John's Airport and the hon.

P,entleman and one of his colleaJ!:ues - my former colleague thellllemhf'.r for White Bay South (Mr. W.Rowe) - in a cloak and dagger way were ushered aboard the BRINCO nlane and flew off to Montreal. Why even I did not know and I was the Partv Whi'[). My colleague did not know. liiiR. DOODY: Are you sure negotiations WPTe not goin~ on? MR. NF.ARY: This was during the time that the takeover 1"'as taking place. I was P,oing to call up the RCMP to send out a search party to see if thev could find the Leader of the Onnosition and my colleague. They were on the missing list.

The noor old secretaries in the office were driven out of their minds, nhone calls were coming in. We were des'[)erately trvi.ng to find out where thev were ,and here they ••ere un in Montreal being briefed by the hierarchy of BRINCO. We were not good enough~ We could not be trusted! MR. OOODY: How to O'[)pose the government. MR. NEARY: I still do not know what they were told. We were not briefed on their meeting when they got back from Montreal. 1932

December 17, 1975 Mr. Neary. Tape no. 746 Page 1 - mw Then there was the secret meeting held over at my colleague's house, the member for Trinity- Bay de Verde (Mr.F.Rowe). It was a secret meeting, Sir. Mr. Speaker, - MR. ROWE: It has been made public. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is just as well to get our cards on the table, Sir, and I may say straightaway that I am voting - I am taking the unprecedented step of voting for this resolution, although I do not agree with the first part of the resolution, Sir, but the second

part I agree with, and I am voting for it because I have the interests of New~oundland at heart. I am not like my friend who just took his seat, although he may be quite sincere in what he says. Sir, one thing we are going to have to do is we cannot appear in the eyes of Ottawa, for instance, to be divided on this matter. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, how can the Premier, the Minister of Mines and Energy, and anybody else in the cabinet who they take to Ottawa with them, how can they go up and present a united front on behalf of the people of this Province when they have a division right in their own ranks? The official Opposition has expressed no position. Why Ottawa would say, well, look, what do you think we are, a bunch of fools here? AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Why you cannot get unanimous consent of the members of your own House - MR. HICKEY: Now you are talking. MR.

NEARY: - in behalf of their constituents and in behalf of the people of this Province. MR. ROWE: Unanimous consent for \~hat? MR. NEARY: Consent to go ahead, not to interfere with the momentum of this project. Ottawa, Sir, is the one that is going to have to foot the bill. MR. ROWE: What momentum? 1933

December 17, 1975 Tape no. 746 MR. NEARY: MR. ROWE: I beg your pardon? What momentum? Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: But an~· ay, Mr. Speaker, I will deal with my hen. friend, but I have also a word of advice for the delegation if they go to Ottawa, when they go- and they have already been there, And I was there recently, and I · talked about this development of the Lower Churchill, not in any official capacity, but as an interested Newfoundlander.

I would suggest to my friends on the opposite side that one thing they are going to have to do, a second thing, apart from getting unity within their own ranks, and this is most unusual­ you know, Mr.

Speaker, according to the British Parliamentary system, Sir, when a man disagrees in conscience with his own party, one of two things happen, Sir-and he can get over there and say, that they have democratized the Tory Party all he likes, and he can keep referring to the'develop or perish' attitude of the former administration, the policy of that adTnini s tr A. tion , and l1e can use that for a crutch if he wants to for voting against the resolution 1or he can try to. He is not fooling me. He has to do one of two things, Sir.

He either has to come over here with me, right here, independent, or he has to get the royal order of the boot. And he chose to make his remarks when the bon. leader of his party is on the broad of his back. I hope, Sir, that the bon. leader of that party continues to improve and get better. It will not do him any good when he turns on his television, if he has one, up in his room tonight, in the hospital, to hear that his colleague, the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) is against this resoluuion. Mr. Speaker, did they not caucus before they brought the resolution into the House?

There was the place that the member should have gotten his - whatever he had on his chest - should have gotten it off. I am not telling the government or the Tory Party what to do. I guarantee you I know what I would do if I was the leader of that party, and it would not be just a little gentle flick on the wrist, because I think the gentleman has done a disservice to Newfoundland. 1934

December 17, 1975 Tape no. 746 Page 3- mw Mr. Speaker, getting back to the secret meeting that my hon. friends says was not a meeting . Well, Sir, I say it a meeting because I was the one who made the arrangements, most of the arrangements, not all the arrangements,for that meeting. 1935

December 17, 1975 Mr~~ Tape 747 PK- 1 No, Sir! I was the one who made the arrangement. I was the one who contacted the Old Frofessor because the big problem at the time was - MR. __ ROWF.: The big problem at the time was the Young Professor: ~. NFARY: The big problem at the time, Mr. Speaker, was the fact that everybody was uptight about poor old Joey. Is he against us? Or is he for us? Or what is he going to do?

The Leader of the old guard Liberal Party then, as now, used to spend all of his time out in his office calling people up to find out what Joey was up to, what he was going to do, would he support the Liberal Party in the election and so on? He spent all of his time at it. We used to tell him, your place is in the House. No, he would not come in the House. He was paranoid about my hon. colleague, the Leader of the Liberal Reform Party (Mr. Smallwood).

And finally, Sir, there was an issue on which there could be a meeting of the minds and maybe a merger of the two factions within the Liberal Party, and the issue was the proposed takeover of Churchill Falls Corporation. So a meeting was set up over in my hen. friend's house. The former Premier of this Province (}fr. Smallwood) was invited there, because I was the one ~~ho invited him - and this is a little bit of history, Sir, for you - there was a meeting held, a private meeting held by the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Roberts) and the former Premier (Mr.

Smallwood) the now member for Twillingate, a private meeting held before they came to meet with the caucus. And during the private meeting, so I am told - AN RON. MEMBER: Has he not a member of your caucus? MR. NEARY: No, I do not know if he was a member of the caucus. I do not think he was. This was just the caucus and the former Premier (Mr. Smallwood). At the private meeting, I am told, the hon. member for Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) laid down some ground rules for the meeting with the caucus.

One of the things that he specified was that under no conditions wo1lid he support the Liberal Party unless they fought tooth and nail against the BRINCO takeover. I cannot say whether there was an agreement between the two gentlemen or not, but when they came before the caucus this was the proposition that was put forward, apart from all the political 1936

December 17, 1975 Tape 747 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: matters that were discussed. The main issue that was put before the caucus was the BRINCO takeover and the position of the old guard Liberal Party. And the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) said that under no circumstances would he support the Liberal Party or its leader (Mr. Roberts) if they went along with the BRINCO takeover, with the Churchill Falls takeover. Now that put me in one awful position, Sir, because I was the only member of our caucus who had been suggesting both inside and outside of this hon.

House that the government take over the Churchill Falls Corporation. So at that meeting I reminded my colleagues that if they adopted this position they would be putting me in a sort of a bind, that I would be sort of backed up in the corner. MR. DOODY: No wonder they would not give you a lift up to Montreal, MR. NEARY: No, Sir, no wonder I was not whipped out of here in the wee hours of the morning.

But immaterial, Sir, immaterial of my feelings,and I did not get very much reaction to the fact that I had taken this position, although I might say that I thought the whole thing was ill-timed but the principle, the principle of the takeover, Sir, in my opinion, was the right policy to follow. Ill-timed,as I say,but I do not think-if I were going to do it that would not be the psychological moment, »ut, Sir, I certainly agree with the principle.

I agreed with it then and I agree with it now, But it dtd not make any difference about my feelings, Sir, The old guaYd Liberal Party agreed with the Old Master, and said, yes, in return 1937

December 17, 1975 MR. NEARY: Tape 748 for your support :l.n the next e] ection that we will fight this tooth and nail. "'here was an ar;reement reached. There was an ar.reement reached. MR. ROWE: ~<r. NEARY: MR. ROWE: No, Sir! Yes, Sir. Says Neary. IB-1 'IP. NEARY: Not "Says Neary" and you do not use first or second names in this hon. House my hon. ani! learned frienn. 'l'he agreement was reached, Sir, right in the hon. nemher's base~ent. ~IT' .• SIM'ONS: Not :!n my presence thou11:h. ~<r. NEAPY: In your presence. MR. SIMMONS: No, Sir~ l~. NEAPY: Yes, Sir. sn~ RON. }1E!"J!ERS: Oh, oh! }fT>.

NEARY: Sir, if my hon. collengue, the member for Twill:f_ngate (~r. Smalh,oocl) '~as here he ~muld enclorse what I am saying. It is an absolute . fact and they can c1eny it now a11 they like. But, }lr. Speaker, that is not the important thin!!:. They had an af.reement. They came to an agreement. nut, Sir, the significant part about it ls that for several weeks after that meet:!nJ> there "'as complete s:!lence. P.ut the hon. J.eaner of the Opposi t:!on renegecl on the agreement. ~y hon. collear;ue, who i.s now down there denying any ap-reement, remembers the frustrat:fon and the torment that we went through.

He ''ere not allowed to speak on tlds great issue, one of the most important :! ssues to face the peop 1 e of this Province. NR. SIMMONS: Fhat was the agreement? !·T. NEARY: The agreement was that the hon. mell'ber for Twi.ll :!.ngate (Hr. Smallwood) and the bon. J,eader of the Opposition, their hearts were beating in unison. They had sat down and had a meeting of the minds and they were now on one mind about this takeover, that they 'muld f:l$!ht ar;ainst it tooth and nail. Nll. F. ROWF.: The first I heard of it. MR. NEARY: Hell, Sir, it is not the first the hon. member heard of 1938

December 17, 1975 'M1'. NEARY.: Tape 748 IB-2 it because many is the time my hon. former collear;ue and I sat down and curse. <~ and swore - SO!>ll\ HON. r'F.l"'RERS : Oh, oh ~ Hl' . NEAIIY : l·lell, I d"ld, Sir. I <lo not know about my co11eaque. lie cause here. we were silenced, our 1 ips were sealed, and here was the leader would not take a position, would not take a stand on the biggest issue to face the people of this Province. tm. DOODY: l·~at kin<l of 11.dhesive did they have to seal your lips? MR. LUNDRIGAN: It is har<l to believe. ~m.

NEARY: Yes it is hard to believe but now you can see the results of it. Probably another one of the reasons I am down where I am today, and I am proud of it. Hr. Speaker, there ~vere ~veeks of complete silence. I remember some of the ~inisters daring the Leader of the Opposition to take a stand. This used to - you know,I am not the worst in the world, Sir, at public relations but I was right uptipht. If my old ulcer, Sir, if she ever felt like erupting, that was the ttme. We could not say anything. The leader would not say anything. Nobody would say anything.

Once in a while,you know,you would sort of ~>,et out the backhanded flick. FinaJly he took to the television and we all know what happened. He just put a few questions to the l'ini ster of }'ines and Enerp:y at the time ru1d to the government, to the Premier. He did not take a position. ~1 ow, Sir, we see a repeat performance, history repeating itself. Sti]] no position! So that is ~rhy, Sir, I say that this debate so far has taken an unusual twist. I hope that for the sake of the old guan1 Li.beral Party, my ole! alma mater, that they will take a position. Do not be wishy-washy and namhy-pamby.

Do not folJ ow the example of the r:overnment House J,eacler. Stan (I up ll'.an fashion, stanc1 up for Newfcnmd] and. u Breaths there a mRII ~dth soul so dead,/ That never to himself has said,/ This is my home, my native land. 11 Stand up ancl be cotmted~ I say the same to the members, especially the hackbenchers 1on the p,overnment side. I should not 1939

necemher 17, 1q75 liP. NEARY: Tape 748 have to stand here and tl'ake this ldncl of 11 spN•ch. I have no ~cubt but the nemher for St. John's North (''r. rarter) - :f s it still St . John • s North? AN liON • J®fJlE'R : Yes • '"'. NF.AJ!.Y: Will get up, Sir, he ~ill r,et up and he will parrot exactly what the member for St. John's East (1-!r. Yarshall) has s;tid . r will predict that noP, Sir. I w:lll make you 11 fo recast. AN U0:-.1. ?·'m'BEP: Re is noted for his originality. vn . NIY\rY: No it ~lilJ not he ori&inal.

He will get up and he will stick thr rarts into the former administration,too,and he will try to use that for a crutch to weasel his way out frov under, from votin£ for this resolution,and he will parrot pract:fcally ex:JC'tly ~:hat the D!ember for St . John's F.ast (?-'r. '-"rs hall) just finished tellin& us. Ultra ronse~at:fve, both y.entlemen, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra Conservative. /'bout as Tory 11s you can ret. The rir,ht of right,if you can ~et right of ri&ht. 1940 IB-3

December 17, 1975. Tape 749 RH - 1 MR. NEARY: They are gone off so far ri~ht, Sir, that you ~rlll soon have to send a search party out to look for them. So, Mr. Speaker, it is a very, very serious matter, issue that we have under debate. We have one leader, no position. We know the ~overnment's position. We know the position of the Liberal Reform grouo. They too are not completely happy about the resolution. They want to see Labrador developed, be turned into a great industrial empire . I do not think anybody would object to that.

That is motherhood - that all the power be kept in Labrador to develop industry on the mainland part of the Province. Oh! It is a good thing if you can do it. But what happens to the poor, old Island? Do we move the whole population then over to Labrador? Are we going to forego the possibility of having a tunnel underneath the Straits of Belle Isle AN HON. MEHBER : No if we do not dig it. MR. NEARY: Oh, that we do not dig it. You know, Mr. Speaker, if there was ever a man in this Province vindicated, Sir, about an idea - AN RON • MEM13ER : Hiscock. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN RON. ME)ffiER: E.C.D.Hiscock .

HR. NEARY: No, Sir, Eric Hiscock wanted to put a causeway acros