Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 56 (36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-56

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 56- 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 1, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon.

McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Ross mere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

3685 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday,Junel,l998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Rail Line Abandonment Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of W. Griffith, L. Graham, D. Long an d others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the provincial government to go on record requesting CN and CPR to not proceed with any discontinua nce of lines until the report has been tabled, that being the Estey Grain Tran sportation report. Mining Reserve Fund Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Spea ker, I beg to present the petition of D. Gren ier, L. Grenier and R. Grenier, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy an d Mines (Mr. Newman) to consider transferring the account of the Mining Reserve Fund to a banking service in Lynn Lake should such a facility meet provincial stan dards. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Rail Line Abandonment Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourab le member for Swan River (Mrs. Wowchuk), and it complies with the rules and prac tices of the House (by leave).

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS affordable transportation is a critical component of grain prod uction; and

WHEREAS under the Crow rate benefit, Manitoba was the cheapest place on the Prairies from which to ship grain but became the most expensive following the abolishment of the Crow rate; and

WHEREAS the Canada Tr ansportation Act proclaimed on July 1, 1996, gave railways the ability to discontinue and scrap branch lines without public input; and

WHEREAS several lines were tar geted immediately by CN for abandonment; and

WHEREAS CN gave notice on May 6, 1998, that the Erwood Subdivision will be discontinued in 1998; and

WHEREAS the loss of this line would severely impact upon the communities of Bowsman and Birch River as well as sur rounding communities; and

WHEREAS in 1997, western grain farmers lost millions of dollars due to backlogs and delays by the major railways; and

WHEREAS as a result the federal government set up the Estey Grain Tr ansportation Review which is scheduled to release a re port later this year. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the provincial government go on record reques ting CN and CPR to not proceed with any discontinuance of lines until that re port has been tabled PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same an d asks leave to sit again .

3686 LEGI SLATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 98 I move, seconded by the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): It is my pleasure to table the Annual Report, 1997- 1998, ofthe Seizure and Imp oundment Registry.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the atten tion of all honourable members, firstly, to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today His Excellency Jim Gerard, New Zealand High Commissioner to Canada. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon . Also, seated in the public gallery, we have this afternoon sixty-five Grade 5 students from Constable Edward Finney School under the direction of Mrs. Diane Minaker. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski).

On behalf of all honourab le members, I welcome you this afternoon . * (1 335 ) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Winnipeg Child and Family Services Caseloads Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Last week we asked a number of questions about the caseloads dealing with children in our commun ities, the Child an d Family Services depa rt ment. The government has talked repeatedly about a strategic planning process that they are in.

We have a copy now of a document dealing with the strategic planning process, prepared this year, that talks about the context of case loads within the cutbacks made by this government on health, education and social assistance and, further, within the context of cutbacks dealing with their very own department, the Department of Family Services. The docu ment also confirms that the caseloads are above the national standards and above the standards of the Child Welfare League of America.

I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services or the Premier: does he feel it is healthy for children to have an average caseload of 38 clients per worker, way above the standard for the North American standard for child and family services? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Fam ily Services): I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question because it does provide me with the opportunity to indicate that right across the country there are issues aroun d child protection that govern ments of all political stripes are attempting to address.

It is no easy issue, and there are no easy quick-fix an swers in the area of child protection or services to children and families in need. I can indicate to you that we have increased funding year after year in the area, and we are still seeing unacceptably high nu mbers of children in care in the province of Manitoba, higher numbers than many other provinces across the country, which is of significant concern to our government.

We are putting the resources in, and I know that the Winnip eg Child and Family Services agency is atte mpting to deal with the issue of caseloa ds and the issues around protection of children. Foster Care Impact of Cutbacks Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The doc ument. which I will table, also confirms that we have the highest number of children in care. Madam Spea ker, of course we already know that we are the child poverty centre of Canada, regrettab ly. The document also confirms that the supply of foster homes is not meeting the ever-increasing volume in needs of children. The Premier (Mr.

Filmon), in 19 93, when he cut back on the money and resources for foster children and foster parents, said that foster parents could be replaced. I would like to ask this Premier what impact his cutbacks have been on foster rates in Manitoba.

June 1, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 368 7 What impact has there been on lack of care on the one hand and higher costs through short-term stays in hotels and other resources on the other hand? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I do know that Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency has, over the recent months, been recruiting foster parents. I know that the number of children who were in hotels last year, which was unacceptably high, has been significantly decreased as a result of that foster parent recruitment that the Winnipeg agency has undertaken.

But i want to indicate that all of the initiatives we have implemented, many that have been announced and some soon to be announced in the area of early intervention, are all initiatives that are looking towards decreasing the number of children that need to come into care, because we are working with parents and children at a very early age to try to ensure that those children are being parented, and there will be less need down the road for Child and Family Services and that system.

As I said in my first answer, there is no easy, quick fix answer to the issues, but we are working really aggressively to try to ensure that children get off to a healthy start to life. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, we have heard that every year, as the government cuts and cuts and cuts, as it bombs the bridges of opportunity for children, we hear the same recorded announcement from this insensitive government year after year after year. Madam Speaker, the Mason Report states that hotels are commonly used but they are an expensive solution.

They also go on to say the number of hotel rooms has doubled over the '96-97 year in '97-98. They said that part of the reason is the availability of the short-term hotel rooms and the insufficient numbers of foster homes in Manitoba. When is this Premier (Mr. Filmon) going to take responsibility for cutting back the investments in foster homes and creating a higher cost, more used hotel room solution for our children? When is he going to close down the hotel rooms for our kids and get them back in foster homes where they belong? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I indicated in my previous answer, and I will repeat again for the Leader of the Opposition, that the issue around placement in hotels has been addressed by Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency. Madam Speaker, they have had a comprehensive recruitment plan for foster parents and they have seen success in that recruitment. The numbers of children in hotels today are significantly down from the numbers that my honourable friend was quoting in his question.

He says it is their document yes, but since that document was produced there have been significant changes in the number of children that are in hotels. I have indicated many times, and I want to tell the Leader of the Opposition that $20 million over $20 million in increases to services for children and families in this year's budget is not a cut. *

(1340) Mr. Doer: And their own strategic document says it is going into the higher cost placements and short-term placement facilities. Your own document confirms those penny-wise and pound-foolish kinds of strategies of your department when the Premier cut foster parent care and kids ended up in hotels, double the number from one year over the previous year, Madam Speaker, and this is in their own strategic planning document. Madam Speaker, in 19 94, the government cut the extended care rate for foster children.

We, at that time, warned about the impact that would have on aboriginal children, one-half of whom were going to be aboriginal families and children. Today again we see a report that says most of the children are now being placed in facilities and programs, the aboriginal children, which are culturally inappropriate foster homes. Again, will the government review the bad decision this Premier made for the extended family foster home program and reinstate programs that make cultural and long-term sense for our children in care? Mrs.

Mitchelson: One of the issues that is of great concern to our government is the number of aboriginal children that require support from our Child and Family Services, and yet the lack of aboriginal people that are involved in the solutions, Madam Speaker-and that is one of the reasons that we have established a working committee in my department with significant aboriginal representation to try to determine what the answers are. We cannot, in isolation of the aboriginal community, make decisions on what kinds of services and supports

3688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 98 need to be available, and we are working right now with the aborig inal community to try to find those solutions. Winnipeg Child and Family Services Caseloads Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Sp eaker, this Minister of Family Services and this insensitive government will not listen to the Children's Advoca te. They will not listen to the front- line workers. They will not listen to a supervisor who says at an inquest that he knew that workloads were too high because a baby died.

Will they now listen to the mana gement of Winni peg Child and Family Services, who are saying that each worker has an average of 38 cases, meanin g less than an hour per week per family, and will she now do something about the workload issue and at least institute a review, given that on Thursday, one of the people at the inquest said it is impossible for workers to visit homes as much as they would like because of manag ing daily crises? Will this minister act now? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourab le friend for that question because it does provide me with the opportunity to indicate that we have listened to many Manitobans, many Manitobans within our communities, Madam Sp eaker, that are saying that early intervention and supports for children are crucial so that, in fact, children will not need the services of our Child and Family Services agency.

That is exactly why we have put over $20 million more in our budget this year to announce early intervention programs like Ba byFir st, that has been announced already, like Earlystart, like our fetal alcohol syndrome strategy, like the issues that we announced around dealing with adolesce nt pregnancy. Those are all concr ete examples of how this government is concerned about ensuring that children and families get off to a healthy start to life. Foster Care Impact of Cut backs Mr.

Doug Martindale (Bu rrows): Madam Speaker, will this Minister of Family Services, who has been told over and over again by people reviewing the Child and Family Services system that it is their government's cuts to education, their government's cuts to health care, and the cuts to foster care rates that are causing the highest level of children being in temporary placements, a huge jump and use of short-term placeme nts- will this minister do something to restore the foster care rates, to get children out of hotels and four-bed units and into family homes? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, that is exactly why we are looking at ways to try to ensure that families are healthier up front, so they do not need the services of Child and Family Services, so the caseloa ds will be significantly less, all of the programs that we have put in place, programs that are working with new parents to try to ensure that baby and mom are healthy and that families are healthy and they understand the issues around parenting so they will not need support from the Child and Family Services system.

That is why we have partnered with the daycare community and the Earlystart program that works with parents and children and puts mentors right in the homes of families to keep families together to make those families healthier, so they will not need the services from Winnipeg Child and Family Services. I have many initiatives that I can talk about in detail in my next answer. * ( 1345) Mr.

Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services, who has been part of this government for 10 long years and who has been compou nding these problems and has had 10 years to correct them, will she acknow ledge that these doc uments say that the long-term impact of growing days in care has been a strain on foster home resources and do something to increase the number of foster homes so that we can get children out of short-term placements, which are growing, the number of days in care is growing, the workload is growing on the individual workers?

Will this minister and her government, after 10 years, finally do something about this problem? Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I will say again that these are not issues that any government takes lightly. These are issues that all governments right across the country- because I know when I go to

June 1, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3689 meetings of ministers of social services that the issues are the same right across the country-and obviously, the way that we have been doing business for years and years and years in the area of the child and family services system is not working, despite the fact that we are pouring more money into the system year after year after year. The programs that we have announced around early intervention- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you. Madam Speaker.

The programs that we have introduced this year, with an additional over $20 million for children and families, are initiatives that are working with families very early on to try to ensure that baby and parents get off to a healthy start to life so they will not need the kinds of services that have had to be provided. I make no apologies for putting the money in at the front where it is needed. Winnipeg Child and Family Services Caseloads Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, the Winnipeg Child and Family Services strategic planning document makes the point, and I quote: although Manitoba has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates, services on behalf of expectant parents have steadily decreased. Of course, Madam Speaker, given Manitoba's unconscionable and unworkable caseloads, it could not be otherwise. Social workers are overburdened and innocent children are victimized.

I would like to ask the minister, in light of three recent baby deaths, seven since 1990 and countless injuries, all victims of baby shaking, when she will act to reduce case loads allowing workers to provide teenage parents and other potentially volatile parents with supports and services. The real question is when will she act to- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question because I do want to indicate to all Manitobans that the issue of the high numbers of adolescent pregnancies in Manitoba is unacceptable.

We have to deal with the whole issue of trying to prevent adolescent pregnancy before it becomes an issue and before we need the kinds of supports that are needed. That is exactly why we have purchased more dolls to work within the school system and within the health system, to have young people understand the issues surrounding what is involved when you become a parent, especially as a young person without the kinds of supports that really are needed to ensure that children get off to a healthy start to life.

So, Madam Speaker, we are trying to ensure, by working with youth and with aboriginal youth, the announcement that maybe my honourable friend should have been at, to hear first-hand what youth in our community were saying and that is, how do we try to ensure that prevention is the first step in trying to ensure that families- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Adolescent Pregnancies Support Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): I want to ask the minister when she will implement Chief Medical Examiner Peter Markestyn's recommendation and provide teenage parents and all needy parents with parental supports and education. * (1 350) Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): That is exactly what we are doing with the announcement of BabyFirst, where we are working with prenatal women and adolescents specifically to ensure that they are in contact with the public health system.

Through that system, there will be mentors that will be working on an individual basis with young parents and their children to ensure that those children get off to a healthy start to life because their parents have good parenting skills. That is one of the announcements and that is a significant investment that we have just announced. But again, I want to repeat for Manitobans, what our government is looking at is trying to ensure that young girls are not committed to a life of poverty on welfare because they become pregnant. We are trying to ensure that they understand the

3690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 1998 implications, what it means to them, that it is a lifelong commitment, and trying to ensure that we can prevent adolescent pregnancy. Support for Adolescent Fathers Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I would like to ask the minister about young boys. Since adolescent males are very frequently the perpetrators of violence against children, I would like to ask the minister what programs she has created and are directed at adolescent males. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): That is a very good question, and I thank my honourable friend for that question because the Baby Think It Over Program, where dolls go with young people into their homes for a period of time, is for both males and females. I do know that the aboriginal youth that we are working with are both males and females because young people recognize and realize that there is responsibility on behalf of both sexes. So we are working with them to ensure that we come up with the solutions that deal with both males and females in Manitoba. Linnet Graphics Undervalued Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, according to the CRTC, this government gave away Manitoba Telephone System at far below its market value. According to MTS's own internal reports, the government had earlier forced MTS to give away its cable business for a fraction of its strategic value to MTS. It forced MTS against its will to enter into sweetheart contracts with Faneuil, after which Michael Bessey got his own sweetheart contract. Now it has given the Finance minister's brother-in-law and other managers 24 percent of Linnet Graphics for half the government's own share of Linnet's retained earnings.

Will the government tell us: why should Manitobans believe the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism when he says the company, after $30-million worth of forced contracts from this government, is worth only $1 .6 million? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I do not know what the member for Crescentwood is trying to do by putting so much misinformation on the record. It does nothing to bring out the fact that this province under this government has performed another good deal for the people of Manitoba on the sale of Linnet.

I can tell you- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I take strong objection to the reference made to anyone's brother-in-law as it relates to this particular deal or any other. This sale was carried out under the Manitoba Development Corporation which held the share. We have some 60 people working in the province who were not working prior to in this business. It was sold for $432,000, a number which in fact was given to us by a third-party appraisal which was totally independent. * (1 355) Linnet Graphics-Mercer Report Request for Tabling of Document Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister explain why, when the company said it would create over 500 jobs, there are only 60 jobs? The company was given $200,000. He did not get that back. Will he explain why Mercer and company thinks this company is only worth $1 .6 million, no value on the proprietary software, no value on the contracts since 1997. no value for any of the world-breaking supposed value of Linnet Graphics? Will he table the Mercer document? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industr y, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I will answer the last question first as it deals with whether or not we will table the appraisal that was done or the evaluation done by William Mercer. We were but one party involved in the hiring of that company to in fact do an appraisal. So we will check with the other two individuals, the other two companies.

We do not have a difficulty with that. but we will have to check with them to make sure that there is not any difficulty in doing so, unlike ManOil where the people of Manitoba lost $1 6 miiiion under the guidance of those people who are so intelligent. $29 million to Saudi Arabia. I think this is

June 1, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 369 1 a good deal because we in fact made money and have some 60 people working in the province of Manitoba that were not here prior to it. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister explain to the House why the public interest of Manitoba will not be served by the tabling of a report which claims to show that the value of our shares in that company are only worth $232,000, after millions of contracts from this government, after the company has supposedly got a worldwide reputation? Our 24 percent stake is only worth $232,000. Table the assessment. Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker. he can huff and puff and blow all he likes. We sold the company for $432,000. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Downey: Yes, if you discount the $200,000 loan that was given to them if certain conditions were met. So the company was sold for $432,000, well within the value which was put in place by a third party. He should ask them how they came up with the value of the company. As far as tabling is concerned, I said there are two other parties of which we will be requesting their approval to do so, and if they in fact agree, we have no difficulty in tabling that document.

Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Tory Board Member Mr. Kevin Lamou reux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, when the Premier was the Leader of the official opposition a number of years back, one of the biggest criticisms that he levelled at the government was the politicization of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Madam Speaker, one can almost take a crystal ball and predict next year that there will be a zero percent increase. Why? Because next year happens to be that election cycle, and you can see the graph going up and down as we get closer to an election.

My question to the Premier: in keeping with his criticism of MPI back in the good old days of official opposition, will the Premier today acknowledge that there is no need to have a Tory MLA sitting on the MPI board? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, one of the things that the member for Inkster neglects to do is to acknowledge that, since we have taken office, we have an opportunity for a public review of the rate setting process, and that is through the Public Utilities Board that ultimately make the final decision.

So, although he can accuse this government of setting the rates, the fact is that the corporation makes proposals to the Public Utilities Board, and those proposals over the years since we made the Public Utilities Board responsible have been changed. Last year, as an example, but virtually every year the PUB does not give MPI what it asks for. So to suggest that somehow we have ultimate control is absolutely false. * (1 400) Rate Setting Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the Premier is being very selective.

I would ask the Premier to recognize in '95, I believe it was when we had an election, it was zero percent; in '96, we had an increase of 4. 1 percent; '97, 2.5 percent. There was an increase last year. We are getting closer to the election-acknowledge, for the Premier to acknowledge that in fact this government does play somewhat of a role in the setting of the rates in the sense that the government or the board has to decide whether or not to apply for an increase. They have to determine whether they are going to apply to build up on the reserves. Will the Premier- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, in fact, the PUB has disagreed with the proposal of the corporation about how much should be allocated towards the building up of reserves. On several occasions they have said, no, there is no big rush, and they in fact turned down the board's request for increases in fees, in rates to build up the reserves. So there is a series of different measures by which the rates are set. In the past, the rates were set solely by the New Democratic government at their cabinet table.

3692 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 19 98 That has not taken place since we have been in office, and indeed it has been done for the protection of the customers, Madam Spea ker, as well as in the best interests of the people of Manitoba. We believe that the member for Inkster just simply does not understand the process. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Spea ker, I understand the process. Taxpayers are out $2 miilion. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, with a final supplementary question. Point of Order Mr.

Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Sp eaker, we have rules for Question Period and for questions and answers. Madam Speaker uses her discretion and gives certain latitude, but consistently when certain members are not given the same latitude as other members, it becomes almost a matter of privilege, that certain members are allowed to have extra

preambles. Certain members-[ interjection] Yes. So, Madam Speaker, I would ask your discretion and be consistent with all members about your latitude in Question Period. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Maples does not have a point of order. All members know that supplementary questions require no

preamble or posta mble. Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Lawsuit Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, to pose his question now. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is: today we know that there is going to be an additional $2 million that someone is going to have to pay for. Can the government indicate where that money is going to have to come from, or is there going to be an appeal, or what is the status with the $2- miilion successf ul lawsuit that has been launched? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Sp eaker, it is the distinct possibi lity that there could be an appeal, and for that reason I would not propose to go into the detai ls of the case about which the honourable member is asking. Claims like this are covered under a general liability policy underwritten by the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. That policy was for the period August 1, 19 84, to September I, 19 87.

This policy provides coverage for defamation of character claims, and the coverage for elected officials and MLAs is subject to a $1 0,000 deductible which is payable by the government itself. Beyond that deductible, the award would have to be paid by the Manitoba Public Ins urance, and we would await any outcome of any decision respecting an appeal or the results of that appeal before wanting to comment further. Prosecutions Branch-Rate of Prosecution Three Bears Day Care Fire Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Madam Speaker, two-year -old Katrina Rae Guimond died in a tragic fire at her Pine Falls daycare in August 19 96, and after a one-year investigation, I understand that a party was cha rged with mansla ughter, criminal negligence and arson and was then released on bail. My question to the Minister of Justice: on Thursday, the minister promoted in this House that one of the objective tests of the performance of his Prosecutions branch is the time it takes for a matter to come to trial, and his department has one of the best records in Canada, he said. Would he say this to the family of Katrina Rae? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Spea ker, I do not propose to comment on any specific case, but to use a particular family for a political purpose I think is very inappropriate. I know my department works very hard in respect of its prosecutions. Certain things occur, but I know that they are as interested as I am in ensuring that matters move as quickly as they can. Katrina Rae Guimond Family's Request for Closure Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister explain to the family and mother of Katrina

June 1, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3693 Rae, who is trying to get closure, and by the way, asked that this matter be raised, why in her case his department has so far consented to 16 remands in one year? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, if the family does want to speak to my department and officials in my department, they can certainly share what information they can share. I understand that at times certain information cannot be shared, but I know that the members in my department are more than willing to share what information they can.

I certainly would encourage the family to contact members in my department, or indeed members in my department, if the member for St. Johns wishes, can contact that family directly. Prosecutions Branch-Rate of Prosecution Three Bears Day Care Fire Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would this minister, who should know that the family has contacted members of his department and has been repeatedly told that the preliminary inquiry would be set down at the next date, can he possibly explain why the matter has not even been set down for a preliminary inquiry, and it is now two years after this tragedy? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, the record of our department in respect of moving matters to trial quickly and appropriately is unparalleled in Canada. We pride ourselves in respect of moving matters very quickly. There may well be issues that are relevant to why there were certain remands granted in this case. I think that the family is entitled to any explanation that we can possibly give them, and so I would certainly encourage that course of action. Neurological Services Specialist Workload Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Over six months ago I wrote to the Minister of Health regarding the loss of pediatric neurological services at the Health Sciences Centre, and still today, Madam Speaker, we have received no response from the minister in this regard. Dr. Pillay, the only remaining epileptologist with pediatric neurological skills practising in Manitoba, is now leaving for the city of Calgary, leaving Manitoba without those services.

I want to ask the Minister of Health-since he indicated in Estimates for his department he did not know how many neurologists were in Manitoba-how he expects the remaining neurological specialists in the province to take over the workload of Dr. Pillay, since the minister did not even know how many neurologists were practising in the province of Manitoba. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member is wrong. We have had a great discussion over this issue in Estimates. I would not want it to be left on the record that the matter has gone unattended by me.

In fact, we had quite a great deal of discussion. We also shared with the member information with respect to the specific individual who was brought to our attention, because we were not the employer of that individual; that person had a relationship with the Health Sciences Centre. There were issues involved in the departure that were discussed, I think, respecting the privacy of that individual.

As we have indicated, the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, as it takes over a greater and greater role in the system, ensuring that we recruit the right number of specialists to fill need is part of their mandate which they are undertaking. So the member should not let it go on the record that his matter has not had an answer or been dealt with or is being dealt with because that would not be accurate. Waiting List Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Well, I want to ask the Minister of Health-since he did not know in Estimates what are the waiting lists for people in Manitoba, and particularly children, suffering with epilepsy who require neurological services, what are the waiting lists for the remaining neurologists in the province of Manitoba, Madam Speaker, since this minister did not know how many neurologists were practising and only relied on the Manitoba Medical Association to provide that information from an outdated list? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, neurologists are not the only people who work

3694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 1998 with individuals with epilepsy. So to leave the impression, as we discussed in Estimates, that that is the only resource available would not, as I remember it, be accurate. As well, each individual physician maintains their own waiting list, dependent on the number of people who want to see them and their success, et cetera. So we do not have access to that particular number with each individual who is practising in that particular field. The member does know that. It was discussed in Estimates. * (14 10) Health Sciences Centre Teaching Accreditation Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, can the minister explain how he expects the Health Sciences Centre to keep its teaching accreditation in pediatric neurology if the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons investigates the hospital? Since Dr. Pillay is the only remaining person in the province with those skills, how will that hospital keep its accreditation now that Dr. Pillay has gone to Calgary? How does he expect that facility to remain a teaching facility? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, with respect to the individual that the member keeps referencing, the member is aware of a number of circumstances around his departure that we both agreed we would not discuss in a public forum-and he is aware of that-to respect the privacy of that individual and other individuals as well. Madam Speaker, the Health Sciences Centre, as part of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, has a responsibility to ensure that in programs it offers that it recruits specialists to do the work that needs to be done.

There is a host of areas, as physicians and specialists move across this country from place to place-some leave, some come, depending upon opportunities that they see for themselves individually-and as they depart, those in authority in those specific institutions begin a process to recruit. We have worked from time to time with the Health Sciences Centre, with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, now under the new regime, to assist in their recruitment efforts, whether it be in this area or oncology or others, and we will continue to do so. Computer Contract Product Quality Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Government Services and concerns the $1 50-million computer contract between the government and SHL. The government has confirmed that the price of the computer hardware accounted for only 15 percent of the point system used in the selection of the successful hardware bidders. Bidders have claimed that the 25 percent weighting given to product quality was not defined. Could the minister release the definition of product quality and presence which made up 25 percent of this point system? Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, in the process of asking for a request for a proposal, in many cases, or in all cases, there is a committee struck amongst the many departments that are involved in that process. Their role is to place before the-in terms of the RFP and work with the company doing it-is to place all these areas in terms of what they are looking for in terms of the product. I would remind the member across the way that, with respect to this particular contract for the computers, our initial contract, this government was with Systemhouse.

It is Systemhouse's responsibility-it was their responsibility to supply the hardware, because they have to have certain performance standards with the provincial government. Therefore, it is in their purview to put the RFP out for the computers, and I am advised in this particular case that this is what they had done. Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. I am ruling on a point of order I took under advisement on May 5, 1998. The point of order was

June I, I9 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3695 raised by the honourable Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh), who stated that she had not risen to answer a question because there was no question posed. At the time, l indicated to the House that I had not heard a question but that l would review Hansard. Having reviewed Hansard, I find that the minister was indeed correct. The honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) had not put a complete question.

However, what the minister raised was an explanation of her action; it was not a point of order. l would remind the minister, and all members of the House, that a point of order is a question raised with the view of calling attention to any departure from the standing orders or the customary modes of proceeding in debate or in the conduct of legislative business. If a point of order consists of putting a question to the member speaking, if it is a mere interruption, or if it is defective for other reasons, the Speaker will rule it out. * (1 420) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Arborg, Manitoba-Town Status Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, this past weekend I had the pleasure of attending the ceremonies to mark Arborg officially becoming a town. The Village of Arborg was incorporated on January I, I9 64. A few years have passed since then, but Arborg residents have always known that becoming a town was an attainable dream. When the I9 9I census figures came out showing that Arborg's population had reached I ,039 people, 39 above the I ,000 people required to achieve town status, their dream had finally been met. The necessary paperwork followed, and on October 25, I9 97, town status was officially granted.

Arborg is an important regional trade and agricultural service centre for Manitoba's Interlake. As Mayor Bert Kindzierski has said, having town status provides Arborg with greater recognition. This is important not only when it comes to luring potential businesses and industries to the community, but it also helps reinforce a sense of pride in local residents. So I would like to thank the organizing committee, the municipal council and the residents of Arborg for inviting me to this wonderful event.

I want to congratulate all members of the community for their ongoing involvement and interest in the community as it moved towards town status. I hope Arborg residents undertake many more fruitful projects in the years ahead. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Winnipeg Capital Region Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer), in response to the unveiling of the NDP Seven Steps to Restore our Capital, said that everything was just fine in Winnipeg in the Capital Region.

Ostrich-like, the minister ignores the fact that since I9 88 residents of Winnipeg have been witness to many worrying trends: housing starts falling to one-sixth of their levels; value of older homes in older neighbourhoods diminishing to virtual invisibility; school taxes having risen by over 50 percent; violent crime having risen by 77 percent in Winnipeg; and a nearly doubling of youth crime. Auto theft is three times what it was in I9 88, and in the decade since the Filmon government took office, child poverty has been either first or second-rate in the country.

Madam Speaker, our plan, even the Free Press has agreed with our plan, and I quote:- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing difficulty hearing the honourable member for Wellington. Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, I quote: "The NDP has clearly recognized that some Winnipeggers feel they are being taken for granted by the provincial government. In doing so, the party is emphasizing that a healthy, vibrant Winnipeg is key to the development of a prosperous province.

"The city's position has been, and continues to be, one of working co-operatively with the surrounding municipalities to develop a plan to strengthen the entire region. The NDP's proposal for city and regional development is built on the same idea-one that tries to unite Manitobans, not divide them. It is a step in the right direction."

3696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1998 Madam Speaker, the citizens of Winnipeg in the Capital Region are looking for leadership to build on our strengths and move us toward a better future. Unfortunately, this government is not providing that leadership; however, the next government, which will be an NDP government, will provide that leadership. Millennium Project Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): Following on the heels of that nonpolitical statement, I would like to share with the members the privilege that I had in taking

part in the millennium project which met in the rotunda this morning. This project is the brainchild of the class of 2000 from the Neepawa Area Collegiate institute, and they have invited other class of 2000 graduates to join them in a project whereby they hope to raise funds and to support research to eventually alleviate juvenile diabetes and also to share those funds with the Trans Canada trail in the spirit of unity and healthy living that of course goes with the use of something like the Trans Canada trail.

Their goals are modest in raising $5 per student graduating, but they expect to link that to community partnerships, to private sector partnerships and multiply that into hopefully a multimillion-dollar project where money can be set aside across Canada in aid of these two very worthwhile projects. I want to commend the class of 2000 from NACI, as well as all the other classes from 25 different high schools who joined them here today, along with I believe hundreds more classes of 2000 who will in all likelihood join them across Canada in this goal, and I salute the principal of NACI, Mr.

Phil Shaman and Bob Lepischak who are leading this project. Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Co. Limited Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Northerners are very happy with the recent announcement by Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Co. at Flin Flon. HBM&S announced that it will proceed with production at Kanuta Lake [phonetic). Kanuta Lake will produce 800 tonnes of copper ore per day, beginning at the end of June. The ore will be trucked to Flin Flon for processing. The operation will create some 30 new jobs initially and some 55 jobs once it is in full production.

The mine is expected to operate for roughly six years. This is the third such announcement in the last month. Earlier HBM&S announced a significant find at Flin Flon. Additionally, New Britannia at Snow Lake announced that the mine body there is significantly deeper than perhaps was first anticipated. These finds show once more that this region has still more potential for producing ore. It is our hope that the provincial government will take notice of these developments and strengthen its commitment to exploration in the area. The Leaf Rapids-Lynn Lake area deserves immediate attention.

These communities have contributed millions of dollars annually to the provincial economy. Despite this, the provincial government has failed to make a commitment to actively explore in this region. The Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, among others, has proposed that special attention be paid to areas where the life expectancy of mineable ore is five years or less. It is time that the provincial government stood up and acted. The province never misses an opportunity to take taxes from the North. When it comes to providing assistance or services to the North, the province is virtually invisible.

It is time for a change. Teddy Bears' Picnic Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Madam Speaker, along with two members of my caucus, I had the pleasure of taking

part in the twelfth annual Teddy Bears' Picnic at Assiniboine Park. Held by the Children's Hospital Research Foundation, the Teddy Bears' Picnic raises funds for research, equipment and programs at the hospital. Along with the honourable members for Niakwa and River Heights, I took

part in the festivities by making and serving pancakes to some of the nearly 30,000 Manitobans who did not let cooler than normal temperatures prevent them from attending. Hundreds of Manitobans also took

part in the Teddy Bears' Picnic walkathon to help raise funds for the Children's Hospital Research Foundation. Events such as the annual Teddy Bears' Picnic serve as a reminder to all of us that children approach health difficulties very differently than adults do. Educating children about the role of hospitals is only one of the very important functions the Children's Hospital fulfills each

June 1, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3697 year at the Teddy Bears' Picnic. It also raised an estimated $80,000 for research and equipment. Along with all of my colleagues, l would like to thank all of the 2,500 volunteers who once again helped make the Teddy Bears' Picnic a tremendous success. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I believe honourable members might agree to waive private members' hour today. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to waive private members' hour? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Yes, Madam Speaker, I ask that because I think that we will probably waive another private members' hour between now and Thursday and then have two private members' hours on Thursday morning. That is why I raised that, but we needed to do that for today in any event.

Madam Speaker, I would like to obtain the unanimous consent of the House, notwithstanding the sequence for consideration of Estimates as outlined in Sessional Paper 14 2 tabled on March 24, 19 98, and subsequently amended many times, to consider in the House the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture on completion of the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. These changes are to apply until further notice.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to change the sequence for the consideration of Estimates in the House to consider the Estimates of the Depart ment of Agriculture on completion of the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources, these changes to apply until further notice? Is there unanimous consent to agree to the sequence change? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, I wish to obtain the unanimous consent of the House, notwithstanding the sequence for consideration of Estimates as outlined in Sessional Paper 14 2 tabled on March 24, 19 98, and subsequently amended, to consider in Room 255 the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism on completion of the Estimates of the Depart ment of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.

These changes are to apply until further notice. * (14 30) Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to alter the sequence of the Estimates in Room 255 to consider the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism on completion of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, and these changes to apply until further notice? Is there unanimous consent? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Derkach), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Justice. When the committee last sat, unanimous consent had been granted to skip ahead to 4.2. Criminal Justice (

b) Prosecutions. Just for the clarification of the committee, we do not need unanimous consent to revert to line I (b). * (1 440) Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Yes, Mr. Chairperson, this is my first opportunity to speak on these Estimates other than a point of order I made earlier during this committee. As I said during that point of order, there are many, many important issues other than what has already been brought up in Justice. Unfortunately, being the second party in opposition

3698 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 98 here, I have to wait my opportunity, and this could not have come at a worst time for me this afternoon. I have some important issues. I was helping our Maples Youth Justice Committee prepare for their AGM. I tried to arrange for another time, but I am going to try to stay as long as possible and cover as many of important items, that I had mentioned earlier, as I can. Point of Order Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Just on a point of order, I am certainly willing to accomm odate the member for The Maples, but I assume we have been unable to reach an accommod ation between the House leaders? Is that correct? Mr. Kowalski: On the same point of order, my under standing is that there was not any other department that was ready to come in here, and these are the Estimates hours. So we would be proceeding from this point on and proceed-it is either passed, this department has passed, or otherwise. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister does not have a point of order. *** Mr.

Chairperson: The honourable member for The Maples, to continue. Mr. Kowalski: Yes, I wonder if we could revert to 4. l .(

b) Executive Sup port. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for The Maples, as I mentioned, the committee does not require unanimous consent to revert to 4.l .(b )

(1) Executive Support

(1) Sala ry and Employee Benefits. Mr. Kowalski: Mr. Chair, because this is my first oppo rtunity to speak on these Estimates, I will be bringing up to sort of give the minister forewarning so that he could prepare. One of the things I will like to discuss is about the possibility and what information, what statistics has been done about a possible provincial police college in Manitoba, following on the lines of the B.C.

Criminal Justice Institute, Maritimes Police College, and exploring what are the impediments to doing that in Manitoba; what would be the advantages, the disadvanta ges, and to get some cost figures and whatever we can from his department. I have a feeling that this would be an area that possibly would be of a great service to Manitoba. Right now, as mentioned earlier, there are five Br andon police officers that are leaving the Brandon Police Service after the taxpayers of Brandon have invested the money to train them, and now they are losing that investment.

I understand that the Winnipeg Police Service are looking at similar out-migration of trained staff. You have a different environment in the Maritimes where people who want to go into a police career go and pay a tuition. They go and they get a diploma from their college there in police-I am not sure what they call it-po lice science or whatever. They pay for their training, and it is part of their Police Act that in order to be on a municip al police force, you have to have such a degree in order to be a police of ficer. I think the other example, the B.C.

Criminal Justice In stitute, does not only cover police of ficers but emergency workers, ambulance, firefighters, and, I believe it is on campus. So there is the benefit of the officers who are being trained there, taking courses with other university students. The ideal situation, the vision-) do not know if it is attainable, I do not even know if a Lloyd Axworthy could make it happen-is to have a police science program at one of our universities, make it a requirement that police officers in Manitoba have such a degree. It would add to the professionalism of police officers.

I think some of the criticisms we have seen in the justice system, the police and some of their actions, I think there would be a second thought about making them. We expect a lot of our police officers. and yet we accept them with a Grade 12 education. It is not necessary to get on the police force to have anything higher than that. We give them limited training, and yet we expect them to have the wisdom of Solomon. We expect them to be able to deal with medical matters, banking matters, as accou ntants . We expect so much of them.

So that is one of the areas that I will be talking about during this Estimates process. The other area, and I think it might be in this here, is I received the news release from the federal Minister of Justice announcing the youth justice strategy. I know that this Minister of Justice, as the previous Minister of

June 1, 19 98 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 3699 Justice, has never hesitated to advise the federal Minister of Justice on any matte rs, and I have some specific questions about what has been said by the federal Minister of Justice about this youth justice strategy. There are some cost implications to Manitoba. Before I ask any specific question, I wonder if the minister would indicate his views on Canada's youth justice renewal strategy that has been put out by the federal Justice minister. Mr. Toews: I thank the member for The Maples for his question.

I will not deal with the issue on the provincial police college proposal right now, but I do want to comment very briefly on the youth justice strategy announced by the federal government. I know that this member has been very active not only as a police officer in respect of youth justice issues, I know that he has been involved with the community that he lives in as a member or a consultant to the youth justice comm ittee there. So I know that his interests in this area are genuine and followed by a lot of action on his part.

One of the issues relating to the youth justice strategy by the federal government-i n respect to this youth justice strategy, I want to say that we know, not just from polls but from our constituents, that the issue of youth justice is a particularly perplexing one. It is concerning many constituents. There is a real loss of confidence in the Young Offenders Act.

I know that in the prairie provinces, for example, I saw some results of a poll that were shared with all ministers of Justice by the federal Minister of Justice, and I understand that the approval rating of the Young Offenders Act in western Canada, and I believe, particularly, the prairie provinces, was at about 12 percent. So there was a real lack of confidence in that particular act.

So we as a government, and indeed some of my colleagues from Alberta, Ontario and Prince Edward Island, have asked the federal government to consider specific changes to the Young Offenders Act to ensure that the confidence of the people of Canada is retained in our justice system, and in those areas where it has fallen far below acceptab le levels, that we in fact improve that. *

(1450) One of the matters, because we were not all agreed on what steps should be taken to improve the Young Offenders Act, one of the areas where we were I believe all unanimous was the issue of cost implications for programming under the Young Offenders Act and any youth justice strategy. When the Young Offenders Act was passed in 1984, we had a working partnership with the federal government that saw the provinces pay 50-cent dollars and the federal government match that as well. The provinces paid those 50 cents, even though it was in fact a federal program.

Traditionally, governments in this area have worked together by delegation or other wise to ensure that criminal justice policy is carried out on a uniform basis across Canada.

Unfortunate ly, what we have seen over the last number of years is a reduction of that federal contribution to the extent that last year the federal government advised us-and I might say that this was before this current Justice minister was appointed, that is, the current federal Justice minister was appoi nted-that the federal contribution was proposed to go down to about 30 percent from the current 33 which has fallen from the 50 percent.

Not only that, the federal government, in fact, indicated to us that they would be stripping the funding out of our youth institutions, so that 10 0 percent of the funding essentially in our youth institutions would come from provincial dollars, even though we are carrying on that program on behalf of the federal government. What they indicated is that they wanted to see more community programming occur. Now, I concur with more community programming; I think of some of our Justice initiatives in terms of the urban sports camps. The one that has been quite a success is the Turtle Island one.

We have opened one up in west Broadwa y, and hopefully within the next year we will open up another one, which I think is a very important part of Manitoba's youth justice strategy. Bu t, again, these all cost money. We are committed to going in that direction, but at the same time we cannot leave our citizens vulnerab le to dangerous offenders who need to be inca rcerated whether they are youth or not. My belief is that when youth are incarcerated, suitable programming must be offered.

It is simply not good enough for the federal government to say we are supporting community programming and turning a blind eye on the institutions such as Agassiz Youth Centre where I think the staf f are doing a remarkably

3700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 98 good job under difficult circumstances and, again, the Manitoba Youth Centre as well. So do I support some of the directions that the federal minister has indicated she is going in? Yes, I do support those directions. Do I think she has gone far enough in respect of legislation and funding? I think there could be much more improvement in the area of legislation, and whatever is done we know carries with it a dollar cost, and we want to see the federal govern ment's commitment in that respect.

The details are still fairly sketchy, so I do not want to be judgmental at too early a time, but given the past track record of the federal government in this area, I do have concerns. Mr. Kowalski: This is an area where I have heard the minister talk about it a number of times. and I want to understand it so I can explain it to my constituents, this idea of what is a federal responsibility that they should be spending the dollars on. People find this confusing out in the public.

There is only one taxpayer, and they do not understand which pocket it comes out of, which source of revenue, but I wonder if you could help me out and simplify it. You say that this is a federal responsibility, the justice system, the corrections programs and that, yet you have said that at one point there is agreement on 50 percent dollars. How does it become a federal responsibility? Is that right from the Constitution, and yet, if that is true, then why did it become 50 percent dollars, and how is it becoming this? Is this by agreement?

How did it come to be that way, that the federal money should be spent on certain things and provincial money on others? I know I am asking a very simple question here, but I will ask the patience of the minister to explain it, so I can explain it to my constituents. Mr. Toews: It is a favourite area of mine, so I have a lot to say on that area. I will try to be concise and I think to the point. Under our federal system of government, the federal Parliament has certain responsibilities on the one hand, and the provincial Legislature has responsibilities on the other.

One of the specific assignments to the federal Parliament is criminal law and criminal procedure, so that any criminal laws that are passed, for example under the Criminal Code, under the Young Offenders Act, which is criminal law, the Bail Ref orm Act, the Narcotics Control Act, and other similar acts-i ndeed their allegation is that Bill C-68 is passed under that same criminal law power. So they have the capacity, the legal capacity or the constitutional capacity, to pass criminal law, and under that basis, they passed the Young Offenders Act.

At the same time, the province has responsibility for the administration of justice, so they need to set up certain courts, but that does not give them authority over the substantive statutes that the courts would consider. That still remains with the federal Parliament. * (1 500) The tradition has been in Canada that the federal Parliament has delegated the responsibility of prosecuting to the provincial atto rneys general.

In certain areas, they have chosen not to delegate that, and that is under the Narcotics Control Act, so even though the Narcotics Control Act is a federal statute, the federal government continues to prosecute that. We have no constitutional right as a province to insist we will prosecute that. Similarly, the federal government could tomorrow say, in my opinion, we will now prosecute any offence under the Young Offenders Act; we will now prosecute any of fence under the Criminal Code.

Where it comes to the issue of the specific Young Offenders Act programming, what the federal government has purported to do, or the federal Parliament has purported to do. is to say to the province, you shall do this in terms of various responsibilities under the act. The Constitution is clear that we have responsibilities for provincial jails, and traditionally that has been prisoners sentenced to two years less a day or less. Now. under the Young Offenders Act, prisoners can be sentenced for much greater time than two years.

Indeed, the Young Offenders Act is really an exception to the criminal justice system that did not exist at the time of Confederation. Bu t there was recognition that juvenile offenders, juvenile delinquen ts, young offenders. were an exceptional case. So I believe the first act that was passed, the Juvenile Delinquents Act,

June 1, 19 98 LEG!S! A TTVE ASS EMB LY OF MANITOBA 370 1 would have been about 19 07, and there was a sharing of responsibility, not constituti onally required, but I think it was done in the best interests of all Canadia ns, recognizing that local administration of statutes is sometimes a very good idea so that they can address local concerns. That cost sharing and sharing of duties under that act contin ued right until 1984, when the Juvenile Delinquents Act was repealed and the Y oung Offenders Act came about.

Again, I think, in a spirit of co operative federalism, everybody said 50 cents-50 cents, so that the federal government would contribute 50 cents and we would as a province contribu te 50 cents, not because, I think, it was constitutional ly required, but because it was seen in the best interests of all parties concerned. The Young Offenders Act is not simply a criminal justice statute. Perhaps that is where its constitutional basis is, but there are social aspects which the province has, I think, an interest in ensuring are addressed as well in the legislation.

What better way to ensure that that input from a provincial point of view is continued than by having that kind of act of particip ation by provincial officials. So it is an exception that I do not think is constitutionally required, and I do not think I have seen it suggested anywhere that it is constitutionally required. The same situation but mirrored is, we find, in the Health area, where we have Health being an area of provincial responsibility, but the federal government, through its taxing power, funded 50-cent dollars at the beginning of the implementation of medica re.

But there we have a situation where the constitutional responsibil ity is the province and the feds simply kick in dollars. Now, the federal contribution has decreased to abo ut, in actual dollar terms, 15 percent. We can argue about that number up and down, but it is nowhere near the 50-cent dollars that used to occur. So, again, there was seen in that case, because the federal government had the stronger taxing power and the access to money and the desire for national standards, that there was a vested social interest in federal

part icipation. Similarly, but, again, mirror image in this situation, where it is a federal program, the province believed that there was a vested interest to participate in the delivery of this program, not that there is a constitutional responsibility but, I think, for very pragmatic, federal reasons. I hope that helps the member. Mr. Kowalski: Yes, thanks . That helps a great deal. It raises some other questions, like when there was this agreement to go to 50-cent dollars, if it is going to be decreased any more, does it have to be a bilateral agreement?

Or can the federal government arbitrarily the minister tells me that when this went to 50-cent dollars, it was by agreement of all the provinces then. Now he is saying that the federal government, if I understand him correctly, is unilaterally reducing it to less than 50 percent. Is that correct? Mr. Toews: I think that is correct that they are purporting to do it unilaterally.

When I became minister back in January of 19 97, that was one of the first issues that was brought to my attention, that it was sort of seen as a fait accompli that the federal govern ment would continue to dictate the fact that their reductions would continue and that the province was powerless to do anything. I guess many of our officials in the provincial government took that point of view because that was also happening in Health. It was happening in respect of First Nations people off reserves.

I mean, what we have seen the federal government do with First Nations people off reserve is costing the taxpayers of Manitoba an additional $20 million a year unilaterally that they cut off. They said, well, we might have the responsibility or the constitutional authority, but once they come into the urban areas, then we have now decided on a policy basis that you will now deal with the financial needs of those First Nations peopl e. That is not something that is mandated by the constitution.

The federal govern ment still has a responsibility and constitutional authority to deal with First Nations people anywhere in Canada , whether they are on reserve lands or off reserve. They have simply exercised a policy decision saying: we will cut those people off. I guess when the officials see these things happening in that context, it is quite discouraging, and perhaps people do not want to aggravate the federal government, because they do hold the bigger taxing power and the purse strings. When this was brought to

3702 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 98 my attent ion, that the federal government was now continuing in this unilateral way- and I can only say that these were not negotiations between the provincial government and the federal government, the federal government simply announced that we are reducing it another 3 percent, plus we are stripping all the money out of youth institutions, and how do you want to see this occur? I mean, that was sort of the attitude. What I said to my st aff is, no, they cannot do that. This is their responsibil ity.

We are working together with them to try and solve this problem, and for them to act in such an arbitrary and unilateral fashion is simply unaccepta ble. So we basically told them, I guess in about March of'97, that we will not accept any further reductions; that, indeed, we will consider a constitutional reference to clarify the fact that their liability under the Constitution is for 10 0 percent of this progra mming, plus that they could not force any provincial employee to carry out a federally mandated piece of legislation. I might say this is not a unique kind of a situation in a federal state.

For example, in the United States, just recently, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a statute that purported to require state officials to carry out the provisions of a federal act. The Supreme Court of the United States says that violated the separati on of powers. In my opinion, the requirement of forcing a provincial government to expend monies without specific approval of that legislative mandate by that province is as basic as Magna Carta.

One cannot simply unilaterally say to the House of Commons or any legislative body in the Commonwealth that you will carry out this responsibility. * (1 510 ) These legislatures, the Parliament, are constitutionally independent of each other. That is the separation of powers that the federal government and federal Parliament appear to have forgotten. It is not that we do not want to work with the federal government.

I would be very pleased to work with the federal government in their youth justice strategy, but it is one thing to announce a strategy, it is quite another thing then to say: oh, and by the way, the prov inces will pay for it, not us. Let me just finish very quickly. The same issue in Bill C-68. Exactly the same issue, where they said, this is our law, but you will carry it out. Our government, along with Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Territories, said: no, this is your law; you will carry it out and you will pay for it. I just might indicate that Mr.

Rob Finlayson, the assistant deputy minister responsible for Prosecutions, is with us as well, and Mr. Greg Graceffo, the assistant deputy minister of Corrections, is here as well. [interjection] Mr. Kowalski: No, that was not a question. No. That was not the question on the record. My question is-I would like a commitment from this minister. You know, I will stand up for Manitoba. I will stand up that we get the money we need for these very worthwhile programs, but I will use an analogy here. Mrs.

Shirley Render, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair If two divorced parents are fighting over who should pay for the need of a child, the child should not go without that need fulfilled.

When these initiatives start coming forward under this Canada's justice renewal strategy, I would like a commitment from the minister that if there are positive programs, if there are things that are going to be effective in dealing with youth justice, and you will notice I used the word "effective." I noticed throughout these news releases that they use words other than "effective." They talk about meaningful consequences; I am more concerned about effective consequences.

But, if there are programs and issues being brought forward by the federal Justice minister. and the federal Justice minister is asking the province to pay, if this minister, our provincial Minister of Justice, sees the value in those programs, he will not let them lie just because of a dispute over the federal Justice minister. I know he has to be responsible to the taxpayers of Manitoba; but, just as nvo divorced parents could stand up on the principle that they are not responsible, the need of a child and the need of the youth and the need of the community to deal with this youth justice issue have to be met.

I hope there will be no posturing and that effective programs will not get undone because of that dispute.

June 1, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ��----------- 3703 Mr. Toews: Well, I think the analogy raised by the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) is particularly appropriate. One of the things that is always a matter of concern in a divorce-and we are certainly not talking about divorce; we are talking about partners. I recognize the analogy. One of the things that the courts always look to is who can pay.

So, if the father, let us say, is a millionaire and the mother is on social assistance, it would not be equitable, I would suggest, that if there was a question of child maintenance the mother pay the same amount as the father. I think that we recognize the issue of equity, and that needs to be addressed. The taxing power of the federal Parliament which is not limited to simply direct taxation, as is the case of the province, but also extends to indirect taxation. creates a huge, huge cash pool that the province simply has no access to. So, if the divorce analogy is appropriate, I think what we look at is equity.

I prefer to look at the situation as one of partnerships where all partners benefit from working together. What I can tell the member is that I am committed to working together with the federal Justice minister who I think has many good ideas, and we need to work together.

But what I do not like to see is the unilateral federalism that we have seen over the past number of years and not simply limited to the current Liberal federal government but what we saw with the past Conservative government under Prime Minister Mulroney who unilaterally abrogated statutory and contractual rights relating to the Canada Assistance Plan, absolutely no regard for the financial commitments that provinces had to make on an ongoing basis, and I was very proud of representing the provincial government in that CAP reference before the Supreme Court of Canada.

So, for me, it is not an issue of who the federal government is, whether they are Liberals, whether they are Conservatives or whether they are another party. I am committed to working with that federal government, but one has to recognize the realities of our Constitution and the taxing power. So will I make commitments on behalf of the Legislature to expend monies? No, I will not. That is a matter that the Legislature will commit to.

I am committed to working with the federal Justice minister, and I am committed to sharing the ideas that are brought forward both by my department and the federal Justice minister, but, ultimately, it is the Legislature that I respect because that is the voice of the people who make the determination as to whether to spend money on programs. Mr.

Kowalski: I am part of the Legislature, and I am bringing my voice and the voice of my constituents here who are telling me they do not want two different levels of government arguing while children are in need, whether it is in social services or if there are beneficial programs that are out there or are going to be brought forward. Yes, the minister says he will listen to the Legis lature, but the minister brings forward a budget, and the minister, along with the cabinet, can present Orders-in-Council that will expend money.

So I think I am just trying to make a point here, that many of my constituents do not like to see levels of government fighting while there is an obvious need, and that is what I am addressing. I will move on to another area in this Canada's youth justice renewal strategy, and I think this one, there will be no problem with getting agreement. One of the major problems with the Young Offenders Act that I have seen from different perspectives and I hear from the police community is voluntary statements and the complexities dealing with getting voluntary statements.

It seems every time that the police develop a procedure, another decision is handed down in court, and, once again, the police are hampered from doing proper investigations. * (1 520) I have always found it is so inconsistent with what we do as parents when we tell our six-year-old, always tell the truth; if you have done something wrong, admit it. Then our Justice system, what do we tell our young offenders? Do not say anything; talk to your lawyer.

There is such an inconsistency, and now with the complexities involved with the Young Offenders, with getting statements admitted voluntarily, it has hampered police amazingly. I see that one of the bullets in this news release from the federal Minister of Justice is that one of the objectives of this new legislation will be to reduce the legal complexities and determine whether voluntary statements by youth can be admitted as evidence.

3704 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 19 98 I would like an assurance from the minister-! do not think there will be any problem here-that he fully supports that and if his depar tment has looked, even from a provincial level, at what we could do to assist the police to make our communities safer by helping them with this impediment to doing good police investigations, the complexities involved in taking voluntary statements from the youth of Manitoba. Mr.

Toews: Well, I am very pleased to see that the member for The Maples believes that that is, in fact, the federal Justice minister's intent on the basis of that new release.

One of the things that my colleagues from Alberta, Ontario, P.E.I. and myself specifically raised with the federal Justice minister was-and this was raised with her in December of last year-that we wanted an amendment to permit the admission into evidence of a voluntary sta tement given to a person in authority at the discretion of the youth cour t notwithsta nding certain technical breaches, provided that the administration of justice would not be brought into disrepute. I have spoken on many occasions to police officers. This is one of the most frustrating aspects of their police work.

Again, this is an example, not where the province has been fighting with the federal government but, in fact, has been making, I think, constructive suggestions. So I am pleased if that is what the federal Justice minister is going to do. I am not so certain that is going to happen in fact, but I am pleased that the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) sees that as happening. I would certai nly expect from him that he would meet with his Liberal colleagues-because I understand he still may be a Liberal-and raise that concern, because he probably has access to people with power that may not be available to me.

So I certainly am very pleased to see that the member for The Maples takes that position, not just on behalf of our police forces, but for the betterment of the admin istration of justice in Canada. One of the things that needs to be, I think, explored-and I do not want to go into too much detail-but the member has touched upon an issue that is central to the philosophy of the Young Offenders Act vis-a-vis the Juven ile Delinquents Act. The Juven ile Delinquents Act was never seen as an adversarial act in the same way that the Young Offenders Act is.

There was a fundamental change in philosophy from the Juvenile Delinquents Act to the Young Offenders Act where the idea was that young offenders under the new act would be treated more like criminally responsible adults. Yet the effect of many of the technical sections and, I think, the lack of responsiveness of certain of the other sections created the same problems that the Juvenile Delinquents Act did in another context.

Now I see a lot of value in more of a restorative justice philosophy in a statute dealing with young offenders, not the same adversarial approach that the Parliament has adopted in the Young Offenders Act and the courts have enforced through the appli cation of the Cha rter of Rights. The Charter of Rights certainly lends itself to a much more legalistic appli cation of the Young Offenders Act than perhaps even people back in 1984, 1985 envisaged. One of the matters, again on a similar vein, was the Child Welfare Act.

When one looks at the old child welfare acts, and perhaps similarly The Child and Family Services Act now, the intention was never to have a formal, adversarial process when children were the issue. What is the benefit of having an adversarial process when what we are talking about in the child welfare context is the life of a child? When I prosecuted child welfare cases on behalf of agencies, I took a much more concil iatory approach, because it was not an issue of winning the case, that is, getting a permanent order on behalf of the agency.

I felt my responsibility was ensuring what the best interests of the child were. In many cases. that did not mean that I should rigorously cross-examine an uneduca ted, distraught parent who was not capable of often art iculating his or her position very well on the stand. So I never took that position in child welfare cases. Yet what we see over a period of years of that Child Welfare Act was a movement from what they called hearings, not trials, to in fact full-blown adversarial trials. I think that we lost something in that transition.

What we keep on seeing is the Legislature amending this Child and Family Services Act to ensure that we keep having that kind of more concil iatory approach, and we see other influences at play that bring out the adversarial aspect of that. I do not always think the adversarial process is a healthy process when we are dealing with the future of children.

June 1, 19 98 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3705 So the Juvenile Delinquents Act, we saw the same tendency moving from a nona dversarial, pate rnalistic and I use that word in a positive sense-ap proach to an adversarial approach. I frankly do not think that has been in the best interests of youth over the years.

So what I hear the federal government saying in terms of its youth strategy and the emphasis on reconc iliation and community justice programs and being more inclusive of programming like the community justice committees or healing programs, I am in full agreement with that because I think that is a healthy, healthy development. But how we ma intain that balance is always a difficult thing.

So I support the member's call for the reduction of the legal complexities, which, I think, are detrimental to many of our youth, and so, indeed, not only do I support it, we recommended that last year specifically to the federal Justice minister. Again, I look forward to the member's support on that type of legislation. Mr. Kowalski: The minister prefaced his comments by talking about the amount of influence I have and the amount of influence he has. He cannot have it both ways. When the federal government does something positive, he is quick to say: yes, we told them about that six months ago.

When they do something that is unpopula r, he says, well, I do not have any influence over the federal government, maybe the member for The Maples has more influence. You cannot have it both ways. There are ministers of Justice meetings. He has a great deal of influence, and that is why I am bringing these things forward, because, as a member of the Manitoba Legislature, I want my Minister of Justice, who represents this province, and I am bringing forward the viewpoints so that he will take some of these comments and suggestions forward when he is dealing with the federal Justice minister.

On that vein, one of the other things that came out of the Canada's justice renewal strategy press release was that one of the things-the new act will have a statement of principles and objectives. It quotes the proposal that amongst the principles of justice as stating that protecting society is the main goal of criminal law, including the new justice law.

The statement will also make clear that prevention, meani ngful consequences, and rehabilitation are the essential components and compl ementary components of the youth justice system. * (1 530 ) What I am bringing forward to this minister here is that "meani ngful consequences" is not the term that should be used. The word "effective" has to be in there. Meaningful consequences is a political statement, dealing with the public perception that youth crime is out of control, that deals with a political agenda. Meaning ful to whom? Meanin gful to the public or to the youth or to the victim?

I think in this statement of principles and, if our minister, provincial Minister of Justice, has input into this legislation at the next ministers of Justice meetings, I would like that changed in that legislation, that meaningful, effective consequences would be one of those three compon ents in the principles of the new criminal justice act. Mr. Chair person in the Chair Mr. Toews: Well, I happen to like the word "effective" as well. In fact, many words such as "meaning ful," and the other one I find that way, the word "tough," have political connot ations that mean different things to different people.

I think the word "effective" speaks of the implementation of certain policy goals. So, do certain measures bring about certain policy goals? Are they effective in doing that? I think that is a much more objective, neutral word that says much more than simply a political statement, so the member's suggestion is in fact a very good one. Before we are accused here of simply dealing with words, sometimes words are very, very important in order to convey a message.

I think a word like "eff ective" is a much more inclusive word than a word like "tough." Just the word "tough" may alienate certain people who may believe exactly the same thing as people who say: I want tough measures. I agree with the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) that that is a good thing. The issue that he may have more influence in certain circles was certainly not an attempt by me to say that I will not exercise my influence wherever I can in respect of these issues, but I think that the member for The Maples does

3706 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 98 himself a great injustice by simply referring to himself as only one person. He is a member of the Manitoba Legislature, elected by a number of people who have tremendous faith in his abilities to communicate their positions. I know that I think he was simply being modest when he stated his position. We know him to be a much more influential and capable person than he would perhaps even admit. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I did have a number of questions that I was wanting to ask on this whole area.

I am not too sure, in terms of how the minister is actual ly proceeding, if he is dealing with the entire department, whatever it is that we would like. I wanted to address, then, some very specific questions that I have. It has been an interesting process over the last 10 years as a legislator as I try to get a better understa nding of a wide variety of issues, and it seems more and more I am finding a lot of interest in the whole area of justice. I think I can attribute that to the dialogue and the correspondence that I have been receiving from constituents.

It seems more and more that it is an issue that people want to talk about. It really stirred me when, during the by-election out in Portage Ia Prairie, I met a senior lady. I was knocking on the door, and I was just about to walk away when the door just kind of opened up a little bit, by a crack, and this lady saw me. I introduced myself to her through the crack, and then she had opened up the door and asked me to come inside. It was amazing how she had that door so secured and other things that one would classify as safety measures were being taken for her home.

I sat down on the couch, and then she went into this horrific story of what took place just two weeks prior, how her home was invaded. Mr. Chairperson, the bottom line, because I do not need to go into every detail of it, was that this lady now sleeps during the day because she has a very difficult time sleeping at night as a result of her home invasion. Shortly after that, I tried to get a better assessment in terms of what actual ly happens to individuals that break into homes.

I came to the conclusion that for me, personally, and I believe what a vast majority of Manitobans believe, that a home break- in is a basic violation of a person's right to feel saf e in their own home, and every break- in has the potential to be a home invasion because the thief, if you like, has no idea whether or not someone is in fact at home. I see this senior lady and say to myself that this could have happened to anyone, whether it was one of my parents or anywhere else, and a home invasion knows no necessary age. There are young individuals that are caught in these compromised positions and so forth.

What I tried to do was to get a better understa nding of what sort of consequence was there for those individuals, and that is really where it started to get somewhat frustrating. As I tried to get some specific numbers, I could not get that. As an elected official, I would have liked to have seen some more hard numbers as to what actually happens to individuals that get caught breaking into homes.

In fact, I had some discussions with individuals from different departments along with the Courts office, and one of the common theme seemed to be one of the lack of computerization and statistical information that, I think, would definitively have been most valuable in having. Some of the questions, for example, would have been issues of how many individuals have been prosecuted for home break -ins. Do we have any idea of the numbers of individuals that were prosecuted successfully for home break-ins? I know there is an annual police report, and it does give some number s of individuals that were charged.

So would it not be nice to have an idea how many people were charged, how many people were successful in terms of those charges turning into a sentence at the court level? Most importantly for me, I was interested in what type of a disposition these of fenders were being given. I did not know that I was going to be asking the questions today . I was not too sure when the department was going to be passing, so the minister has to excuse me for not having some of the stats that I could have had that were provided, but there is a lot of questions that needed to be answered from that.

From what I could tell a break in, for example, for someone that is a repeat of fender, they are probably looking at somewhere in the neighbourhood of an aggregate total of nine months of a jail sentence as an average . That was som ewhat specula tive. When you go and you knock on a door and someone says. we11, geez, you know. my house was broken into, I had to wait this many hours in order for someone to come on the scene to check out the

June 1, 19 98 LEGIS LATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3707 situation-and then they have absolutely no follow-up. They have no idea whether or not someone was eventually charged with the crime, nor do they have any sort of an idea of what is the I ikely penalty for someone breaking into a home. As I have indicated, I take this as a very serious crime, and what I was hoping is that I might be able to get some specific information from the minister, or whatever information that he might have avai lable.

Specifically, is the department aware of the number of individuals that are charged in any given year with break and entry? Residential break- ins, I am not necessarily as concerned about commercial as residential break-ins. Is the minister aware of how many go through the courts, whether it is successful prosecution? Maybe I can leave those two questions and no doubt those will lead to others. * (1 540) Mr. Chairperson: Be fore the honourable minister responds to the question, I noticed that the committee has-we are on line 4. 1 .(

b) of the Justice Estimates, and we have reverted back from Prosecutions. I noticed in the honourable member's comments to the minister in posing his question that there were references made to other areas. So just to facilitate that we are staying in line with what we are doing here, the process of dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Justice, I would ask the committee ifthere is unanimous consent to consider the entire Estimates of the department at this point in time, so that questions can flow freely without worrying about the areas in terms of the line by line that we are dealing with?

Is there unanimous consent of the committee to deal with the department of Estimates in its entirety? [agreed] Mr. Toews: Yes, I in fact, I think I had indicated as much to the member that I was prepared to entertain questions. I know that he was caught on short notice with the proceedings here, and I wanted to ensure that he has an oppor tunity to answer the question. Similarly, I may not be able to respond perhaps as fully as I would have liked to, but I can through my staff, over the next little while, try to get some of the other information that I might not be able to provide him with immediately.

The member began his question with the by-election in Portage Ia Prairie. I too had occasion to be there for one reason or another during that time. One of the things that we have to understand about criminal justice and the enf orcement of criminal justice policy is that in many ways communities can add so much in order to be effective. Portage Ia Prairie is truly blessed with a city council who is very concerned about this issue and deals with it in a very proactive way. I can speak about the mayor and I can speak about Mr.

Dave Quinn who is a member of my department who, in fact, ran for the Liberals during that same by-election. They have come up with very unique, innovative programs, victims programming, where Portage Ia Prairie was part of a pilot project of seven communities right across Manitoba for the delivery ofvictims assistance program through the RCMP. Again, Mayor Carlson very instrumental in moving that along. They have unique community-based offices where all volunteer organizations get together to central ly deliver many of their crime prevention policies.

Ind eed, there has been some controversy in the last little while about what Portage la Prairie council has done in respect of a curfew that they have enacted. You know, there might be many opinions on whether or not the curfew is a good thing to do. I certainly understand from some of the newspaper reports that we have seen a reduction in vandalism, in petty crimes and perhaps even other crimes. We will have to see what the statistics bear out by the end of the year, but again, that was an initiative by city council to address a particular problem.

So one of the things that we have to remember in all of these circumstances, no matter what laws the federal government passes or what laws the provincial government administers on behalf of that criminal justice system, an important component is the community, and city council in Portage la Prairie has been instrumental in mobilizing community members to work on the issue of crime. They should be very highly commended for what they have done over the past little while.

So in respect of the particular issue that the member raised with me, the conversation that he had with this poor, unfortunate woman who had been, I understand from the member, a victim of a break and enter or a

3708 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, I9 98 home invasion, well, that is certainly a very, very big concern of this department. Our department, almost from the beginning of the commencement of these kinds of actions, has taken a very vigorous and I believe effective mechanism in terms of the prosecutions. One of the first sentences that was handed out at the Queen's Bench level for home invasion here in Manitoba was I4 years. That was reduced, on appeal, by the Manitoba Court of Appeal to I 0 years, and subsequently another decision was upheld by the Court of Appeal at I 0 years.

So it seems to be a benchmark that home invasions, according to the Court of Appeal, are worth at least 10 years. This is even in situations where there has not been particularly a great amount of physical inju ry to the person but that this sentence has been imposed because the community is horrified that these kinds of things would happen. I certainly support that vigorous prosecution of those matters. The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is absolutely correct that break and enters are very, very different from almost any other crime.

I do not consider break and enters into residential homes to be a property offence. They are not property offences. It is not the same thing as having your car vandalized. It is not the same thing as having someone break into a commercial premises at night when there is virtually no potential of someone being there. The real danger of a residential break and enter is exactly what the member pointed out. The potential for confrontation with an occupant of the house is always there, and therefore the potential for personal injury is always there.

So these cases, and we have seen it in the past, what one can call a simple break and enter-and by using that term I do not mean to in any way belittle or downgrade my concern-but a straightforward break and enter can result in fact in a murder. We have had very recently situations where people have broken into a house not knowing somebody was there, and suddenly the residents are confronted. The potential, especially among young offenders, for that situation to get out of hand and serious physical inju ry occur, cannot be underestimated. So break and enters, I agree with the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux), are not property offences. They are something much, much more significant and serious. So the issue of home invasions, which our department has specifically targeted as warranting heavier sentences, is in fact something that we will continue on. I do not consider break and enters to be a matter of the luck of the draw. That is not what we, as law enforcement officials, should consider a break and enter. This is an exceptional situation that needs very strong direction from both me, as the Minis ter of Justice, and other aspects of the justice system.

Again, that issue is also tied up in our policy with regard to bail and the opposition of bail of serious and violent offenders or gang members. So we try to be reasonable in the sense that we want to work within the law, but let us look at what the law provides for a residential break and enter. * (1 550) What is the maximum sentence authorized for a residential break and enter? I think Parliament early on recognized how different a residential break and enter was. It is not simply an issue of a man's castle, as the old expression is, or a person's castle, I guess, as we would say now.

It deals with an issue of personal integrity, of personal safety, and so is much more a matter than just a piece of property. So what does Parliament say in respect of residential break and enters? The maximum sentence is life imprisonment. The issue there is not: do we amend the criminal code to get harsher sentences? Because there is only one alternative to life imprisonment. An Honourable Member: Death. Mr. Toews: The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) indicates death.

I do not think he is advocating that there be executions for residential break and enters, but the point that the member raises has, in fact, received the consideration of Parliament, and Parliament said that there is a potential here of life imprisonment. You know, the issue then of what are appropriate sentences for break and enters is, I think, a very important one. The member has raised this with me before, and I have raised this with my department very specifically as a consequence not ju st of the home invasion sentences, but in fact as a result of the member's questions.

June 1, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3709 What are we doing in that area? Can we determine with any certainty what the sentences are? In my opinion, we need to do a little more work in that area to ensure that the political and legislative message of Parliament is respected, because they are sending us a message saying that this is what the people of Canada want. So how do we communicate that message to all aspects of the justice system to ensure that they realize how significant this is? I am not targeting one aspect of the justice system.

I am talking about the justice system generally, including members of my department. How do we do that? I think in the area of home invasions we have done that, but home invasions are simply, perhaps, on one part of the scale of break and enters because, essentially, that is what they are. They are break and enters. So the member's concerns about numbers and who is doing it, we know, for example, that many of these home invasions are done by very few members of our society, very few.

That is why I think it is very important in any specific case in home invasions to be as vigilant as we can in the area of prosecution, but that does not excuse us in the area of break and enters generally because of the potential of the danger that can arise from confrontation of residents in their own homes. So I do not have those statistics available with me at this time, but whatever statistics I can share with the member, I will take a look for those statistics. There was one other issue that the member has raised, and that was the issue of technology and computerization. I think that is a very good point.

Our Department of Justice has, in fact, been addressing that particular issue. We have a system that is being implemented now as we speak and over the past number of months called the Prosecutions Information Scheduling and Manage ment System, or PRISM is the acronym. Prosecutions is currently undergoing a reorganization that will see a shift of resources from the trial component of prosecutions to the intake component.

What this does is that these efficiencies that will result as a result of concentrating more on the intake will allow us to focus more resources on matters that actually go to trial, proceed to trial. The key component of the reorganization is the development of this PRISM system to ensure that adequate resources are placed at the appropriate pressure points, that the system can respond to a changing environment as those changes occur, so that staf f are deployed in the most ef ficient and effective way and that the needs of victims and witnesses are addressed in a timely manner.

For example, the woman that the member referred to in Portage la Prairie, I hope that he gave her some direction in terms of assistance, perhaps, that she could find, because in Portage la Prairie, as I indic ated, they have one of the most sophisticated Victim Assistance programs in Manitoba. So there is help, and if the member-! can appreciate the member does not want to give names like that, but certainly if he wants to share that information directly with that particular constituent from Portage la Prairie, give that information to the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr.

Faurschou) or, indeed, give it to the police or to members of my department, I would certainly try to ensure that those concerns of that woman are met. But all of this, the core case management, the case scheduling, the financial management, the statistical reporting, all is predicated on an upgrade of technology that we will be seeing implemented over the next little while. The first module will be implemented early next year, and as one can appreciate, there is a lot of work that goes into developing an appropriate, technologically efficient system.

What the prison plan includes is a requirement to provide a work station to all Crown attorneys and support staff within Prosecutions. This includes personal computers, and I have the numbers but I do not necessarily want to provide them at this time, but it includes personal computer work stations. The funds have been approved by government, and so we are moving in that direction. So the point, both that the member raises in respect of break and enters generally, the management of that

3710 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 98 issue, and technology is something that my staff is very mindful of and we will continue to work on. Mr. Lamoureux: I think that there is the potential for the computerization or PRISM -it is the acronym-that the minister makes reference to. I think that there could be many benefits derived from that. What I want to emphasize is that the stats I have been looking for, it has been frustrating because I have not been able to acquire them.

I had the annual police report-now, this would have been the '95 statistical report, and I bring it up as an example, crimes against property. There were 2,445 reported, 242 were cleared, and I have not been able to find out for that same fiscal year, if you like, how many of those break and enters actually were successful in court, and, in particular, what sort of a disposition were we looking at.

It pleases me to hear that a home invasion-the message that the province seems to be sending out is that you are looking at-if you break into someone's home and there is someone there, you are looking at a good 10 years of incarceration.

That is likely an aggregate total, so it might not necessarily work out to 10 years, but at least you have something that is somewhat tangible that you can talk to your constituents about, because I think there is a wide gap of what people really believe is happening to the criminal after that crimi nal gets caught. * (1 600) The minister made reference to the crimi nal law, criminal law being maximum, oflife. So if you break into someone's house, the courts have the opportunity. if they so choose, to send that person away for life.

One of the questions that I put out in my most recent survey was asking if there should be some fonn of a minimu m sentence for someone that is caught breaking into a home, and the overwhelming response to that has been, yes, that there should be some fonn of a minimum sentence to it. The actual percentage-! have about 400 so far returned to me. I will be sure that the mini ster will get the actual percentage. I also left a little line in tenns of what they would suggest in numbers of months would be an appropriate minimu m.

Again, this is just someone that could be, you know, a 19 -year-old who breaks into someone's home, takes ju st the TV and walks out. I was referring to a minimum incarceration period, and it will be interesting to get the results, and I will be sure to give the minister a copy of that when I do get them finalized. That will likely happen sometime in the next six weeks. But to the minister, what I would like to see is the specific number.

If John Doe breaks in and John Doe is 20 years old, breaks into the house, it is the very first time he has broken into a house and he gets caught, he goes through the court, what is John Doe looking at? The impression that the public, I believe, have-and my impression is not too far of f from it; I must admit that-is it might be probation, and if there is any incarceration period of time, that they would be surprised, and, quite frankly, I would likely be surprised.

That is why I think that if in fact there is an incarceration period that we have got to be able to communicate that, because you feed the belief that wrists or hands are being slapped when serious crimes are occurring. What I believe has happened over the years, and I have made reference to this in the past, is that respecting judicial independence does not necessarily justify a politicia n from taking any responsibility to ensuring that there is some fonn of accountabilit y within our judic ial system.

Now. the minister could be in the hot seat by my making that statement and asking him to respond to it, but I really do believe as a result of that ju dicial independence that there has been a general lack of public confidence in the judicial system. Maybe it is because of the media, maybe it is because the communic ation has not been successful in what has actually been happening within the courts, but I believe I would be doing a disservice to my constituents if I did not raise that particular concern, because no one else is doing it.

When I say no one else, I do not mean to say that I am the only member of the Legislative Assembly. I think we all try to do it in our own ways. Mr. David Faurs chou, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair What I see has happened is that there has been a growing gap between what people be lieve is

June 1, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 37 11 appropriate and what is actually happening. In other words, the will of the public and the feelings and the emotions and what they believe is right and just are not necessarily being reflected in our courts.

If in fact it is being reflected in our courts, then we are doing a very poor job at demonstrating that, because I believe that there is a good percentage of the population, I would hazard a guess well over 50 percent of the population-if ! was to really speculate, I would suggest it is probably as high as 85-90 percent-where they do not have the type of confidence in our judicial system which I believe should be there. That is the reason why inside the Chamber I brought forward a resolution with the idea of an all-party task force.

Given what has happened recently or since I introduced that particular resolution, I believe that there was more merit to seeing some sort of an independent review of our judicial system that goes beyond our courts, that goes beyond, if you like, our judges or our Crowns, the defence lawyers, the stakeholders, that we have to get some sort of a review in process so we can start narrowing that gap so that the public can feel that the justice system is there to serve them. Do you know, it would be interesting to get from the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Toews) how many people might have approached him where they said, well, it seems that the criminal has more rights and more advantages than the victim. I know that is something that constantly comes up with respect to me. I like to think that I am very liberally minded in my thoughts with respect to the justice system, that I am not a hard right, you know, throw the person into jail until they die.

I would like to believe that is not my attitude towards justice, but I think the pendulum has gone too far in the other direction, and I think that now is the time in which we start taking some sort of action to ensure that there is more accountability where there has not been any accountability for far too long. I use the example of break and enters primarily because of the frustration, and it would be interesting to find the answers to the question which I put to the minister. I hope to get that, because I think that is absolutely essential. If I am wrong-a nd I hope I am wrong.

I hope that the types of information that can be provided to me demonstrate that my constituents would be content with the types of dispositions that are being handed out through our judicial system. I would be surprised, and I would be the first to apologize to those stakeholders that feel offended if in fact that were the case, but I have done what I can to try to get some sort of statistical information, given the limited resources that I have. Where I believe it is important, because the minister made reference to community groups, I could not agree with the minister more.

I think the more we get the communities involved, the better we are going to be. On a bit of a side note, if I may, I do not want to-well, maybe I will go out to that side note after I give the minister a chance to respond to this. Mr. Toews: The member raises a number of issues that have been currently discussed in public and other areas, and I appreciate the frankness of the member and I think his genuine good faith in raising these issues.

We were elected to serve our constituents to raise these types of concerns, and I believe each of us, no matter what political party we are from, are doing it in good faith, because these are the things we are hearing from our constituents. So I am very pleased that I am not the only member who has been hearing concerns raised by his constituents. So the fact that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and others have the same concerns as a result of conversations that they have had with their constituents, at least makes me feel that I am somehow living in a isolated area.

I think the concerns raised are legitimate concerns that our constituents elect us to discuss.

One of the further responsibilities of the Attorney General, one that has been clearly recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada, is that in the capacity of Attorney General, yes, we are respectful of the courts; yes, we are respectful of the other aspects of the justice system, but we are obligated to express our concerns in appropriate ways so that these issues are discussed and legislatively acted upon. * (1610 ) So, I sat here and I listened to the member, and I say I am glad that he is bringing forward his constituents' concern in such a frank and genuine way because I

3712 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 98 think given his understanding, and the fact he has communi cated that to me, allows me to proceed in certain directions which I think we need, not because we are in the business of knocking over sacred cows. We are in the business of ensuring that government serves the interests of people, all aspects of govern ment. So the comments from the member are certainly worthy of discussion and consideration. We may not always agree on solutions, but the ideas raised are certainly worthy of discussion. That is why we are elected. That is why we are here.

In respect of some of the specific issues raised by the member is the issue of break and enters and what are the statistics. Well, I know that I have received statistics from somewhere and I am trying to track them down. But I know that over the past five years, for example, break and enters-and I believe it is residential break and enters-in Winnipeg have decreased by about 26 percent, so we are seeing a reduction in the number of break and enters. There is no question about that. Is that satisfactory? I do not think it is good enough.

There are a number of initiatives that we can still utilize in order to bring that rate down. I had occasion to speak to members of the community all over Manitoba. Through various community organizations like the Cottage Watch Program, and in certain areas I believe it was-well, maybe I will not say the area because I will be proven wrong tomorrow when a break and enter occurs-but in a cottage area here in Manitoba, the last year the break and enter rate went to zero because of the activities of a community organization work

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-56
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 56.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e3a33cddfd5f25bf4eaf88a68b5709940e928c6d

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