Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 67A (31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-67a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542 - 5492 Second Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL XXVI No. 67 A 2:30 p.m.Tuesday, June 20, 1978 Printed by P.N . Crosbie - Queen's Print er for th e Province of Manitoba

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 20, 1978 Time: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed , I should like to draw the honourable members ' atten tion to the gallery where we have 150 wives of members of the Canadian Medical Associat ion from all across Canada who are in Winnipeg for the Canadian Medical Convention . We also have 22 students of Grade 10 to 12 standing from the Snow Lake Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Pocatello . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon.

We also have 25 students of Grade 10 standing from the Plumas Junior High under the direction of Mr. Richardson. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Membe r for Gladstone . We have 12 students from the Peretz School in Calgary under the direction of Mr. Seldberg . They are visiting the Minister of Education in Manitoba . We also have 18 students of Grade 4, 5, and 6 standing from Tilston School under the direction of Mrs . Halls . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture . On behalf of all the honourable members , we welcome you here this afternoon.

Presenting Petitions . .. Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. DON ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker , I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK: The Standing Committee on Economic Development met on June 15, 1978, and appointed Mr. Orchard as Chairman . Your Committee has agreed that the quorum for all future meetings of the Committee shall consist of six members.

Your committee also met on June 20, 1978, to consider the Annual Report of Manitoba Forestry Resources Ltd . for the year ended September 30, 1977. Having received all information requested by members of the committee from Leifur J. Hallgrimson , Chairman of the Board of Directors of Manitoba Forestry Resources Ltd., the report was adopted as presented . MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the report? (Agreed) Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR.

EDWARD SCHREYER (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker , in the absence of the Premier , I would direct my question to the Minister responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization , or the Acting Minister , and that is to ask whether it can be confirmed that plans are being drawn up at this moment with respect to disaster alleviation and clean-up, and also can we be advised whether the estimate of damage is such as to bring into play , as to invoke the Federal-Provincial Disasters Alleviation Agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. WARNER H.

JORGENSON (Morris): In response to the question from the Leader of the 3989

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 may I tell him that the Premier will be in within a few minutes . I think that he is aware of the fact that the Premier toured that area this morning and will be wanting to make a statement when he arrives.

Insofar as the question concerning the declaration of a disaster area, I think that the Leader of the Opposition is aware that there is certain criteria that will have to be met, and depending upon what the circumstances are, determination will be made as to whether or not it can be declared a disaster area, but if my honourable friend will wait until the Premier arrives , he will be making a statement on that subject. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER : Well , Mr.

Speaker, with respect then to the disaster and related problems in the area of Aubigny and all of the area that was affected by last evening's storm, I will hold further questions for the moment.

I now ask the Minister of Health if he can indicate whether any plans are under way through his department and through the Health Services Commission to deal with the budgetary cutbacks and the problems arising therefrom at the Children's Hospital, wherein, according to a bulletin at that hospital , it would seem as though certain measures are being undertaken because of budgetary cutbacks - It's right in the bulletin, Sir - resulting in no hot meals, both breakfast and dinner.

Can the Minister indicate if this measure for the next three months will be continued, or whether he will investigate to see whether it is really necessary? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker , I can assure the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that that matter will be investigated. I am aware of some proposed measures having to do with the hours of the cafeteria service during summer months , relative not only to visitors but to night and overnight staffing patterns in the Health Sciences Centre generally .

I am going to have to look into the specific question that he raises relative to the Children's Centre . I can only say, in addition to that , that I am prepared imminently to study with officials of the Manitoba Health Services Commission and hospital officials relevant in each case, the measures being undertaken with respect to each hospital budget at this point in time . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker , a question to the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Can he confirm reports that there is presently a major disturbance at Headingley Jail where the inmates have gone on strike and are now bargaining or negotiating with department officials to improve conditions in that jail? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, there was a grievance exercise at Headingley yesterday. It was referred to in some circles as a sit-down strike; it was not referred to as such by my department. The conditions, the situation at the institution are back to normal yesterday.

The majority of the sentenced population , as distinc t from the remand population , refused to carry out their work assignments , stayed in their cells while a new inmate council presented a list of grievances and discussed those grievances with the administration at Headingley. My information is that the situation was back to normal by late last evening and normal routine is being followed and maintained today . MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker .

Without reverting to the vocabulary used by the department, could he indicate if the department intends to take any action to meet the particular grievances , and can the Minister outline exactly what those grievances were, and if there is to be corrective action taken to respond to them , particularly in view of his statement in the Estimates last week that all was well and everything was fine at Headingley Jail? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't think I made the statement that all was well and everything was fine at Headingley Jail.

I believe that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is confusing my remarks and his impression with a newspaper report yesterday which indicated that all was well and everything was fine. I have suggested that due to idleness and enforced idleness and lack of sufficient prog ramming in the work area that there are potential problems in our institutions, Headingley being one of them . I'm on the record as suggesting that.

In response to the direct question of the honourable member, I would say that I don't feel that either I or my staff should respond at this juncture to the grievances raised by the prisoners ' com mittee at Headingley . That is up to 3990

.. Tuesday, June 20, 1978 the administration of the institution. Some of the grievances may be deemed legitimate; some of them may be deemed petty and picayune . The administration at the institution has had some experience in this respect. All grievances obviously have to be listened to because of the potential danger if one doesn't listen to them, but they don't all have to be met and responded to. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

In view of the statement of the Minister that there are problems in the institutions, and in view of the incident that took place last night in the Public Safety Remand Centre , would the Minister now consider implementing the requ est that was made to him during the Estimates debate that a Legislative Committee be set and established to inquire into conditions in the provincial jails and institutions so that we can get a broader based assessment of conditions there and what corrective actions might be taken rather than simply relying upon the convoluted vocabulary of department officials. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, certainly I'd be prepared to consider it; I think it's premature . I think that it's necessary at this point that I, as Minister , with my Deputy Minister and top officials explore the very area to which the honourable member refers . The proposal for a Legislative Committee to investigate the whole subject is certainly worthy of cons ideration and will be taken under advisement, but I think that my department and my office, and I personally, have a responsibility at this juncture that precludes the establishment of such a Committee.

I would certainly be happy to call upon the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge for help if I need it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, to hearken back to the question I asked the Minister of Health with respect to the Childrens Hospital, I should like to ask the Minister if he has received as yet a petition from the pediatric doctors , resident physicians at the Childrens Hospital, expressing grave concern about the deterioration in support services at that Childrens Hospital and among other specifics, points to the discontinuation of hot breakfasts and dinners for the summer schedule. -(Interjection)- For those at the hospital. MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr.

Speaker, I have not received such a petition or such an indication, but I will investigate on the strength of the question that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition raises. It's possible that that kind of information has been conveyed in the past few hours to my office , but it certainly hasn 't reached me. MR. SCHREYER: Yes. To the Minister of Labour, whom I notice has entered smiling. I would like to ask the Minister of Labour if she can advise, pursuant to the statement she made reportedly last evening, that some 1,700- that the Public Service had been diminished by some 1,700 persons or jobs .

Can the Minister indicate , of that number , how many relate to positions that had been vacant in any case, f or one year or more? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I'll take that as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selkirk . MR. HOWARD PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Attorney-General. -(Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, if there is no Acting Attorney-General, I wonder - I know that the Attorney-General is absent from the city; is there an acting Acting Attorney-General?

A MEMBER: They don 't know, they 're looking up the list . Wait, he's looking up the list. ANOTHER MEMBER: It' s between Domino and McGregor . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: My question , Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Health . 1 wonder if the Minister could indicate any progress in obtaining a doctor or doctors for the Snow Lake area . MR. SHERMAN: No progress in the sense that the Honourable Member for Flin Flon and 1 would 3991

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 interpret the term , Mr. Speaker . We're still serving the community on an ad hoc basis through services obtained through the northern medical services and searching for permanent physician appointees to that community. There 's no permanent solution as yet. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker , while we're on the subject of doctors I wonder if the Minister of Health could tell us what action he or his department , his government is taking to ensure that the doctors do not end up in a poverty situation. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker, I'm following the deliberations of the delegates to the Canadian Medical Association Convention very closely as I'm sure my honourable friend is. I have no indications up to this point in time that the doctors are headed for a poverty situation . My honourable friend and I will stand guard against that potential development together, I'm sure. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could indicate to the House if at his attendance at the doctors ' meeting whether they indicated where they consider the poverty line figure to be, and also whether he would be able to get assistance from the Federal Government, assistance for persons in receipt of welfare or about to become in receipt of welfare, to counsel them so they don 't end up in a poverty situation. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would withhold comment on the second part of the honourable member 's question .

As for the first part, the CMA was expecting to be addressed last evening by the Honourable the First Minister who was not able to do so. As a consequence I stood in for my Leader and addressed the Medical Association. I expect that they would consider that a particular type of impoverishment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Selkirk. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question to the House Leader. Can the House Leader now inform the Assembly as to who the acting Attorney-General is or alternatively the acting acting Attorney-General. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I regret to advise my honourable friend that the acting Leader is the Minister of Industry and Commerce who is not here , and the acting acting Attorney-General is the Minister of Highways who is also not here. But if my honourable friend has a question that he wished to unload I will be happy to take it as notice for the Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: I wish to thank the Honourable House Leader for his kindness.

In view of the allegation this morning in the Committee of Mun icipal Affairs pertaining to possible infringement of the Human Rights Act on the part of Highland Park Mobile Estates Limited insofar as the Agreement , Tenancy Agreement , would the House Leader be prepared to accept the Agreement and to have his colleague , the Attorney-Genera l, refer same to the Human Rights Commission for investigation and report ? MR. JORGENSON: I'd be happy to accept whatever it is my honourable frie nd wishes to send over to me and make sure that the Attorney-General receives it. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. KEITH A. COSENS {Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I accepted two questions from the Honourable Member for The Pas on Monday, June 12th in regard to the IMPACTE and BUNTEP programs. The first quest ion asked what percentage of the program costs go to administration ; I am awaiting an analysis of those cost figures in question before I can give him that reply .

The second question asked what percentage of the former Director 's time is being related to teaching in these programs, and 1 am informed that when classes resume in the fall he will be spending all of his time on the projects . 1 also accepted a question on Tuesday, June 13th from the Honourable Member for Rupertsland concerning the former Director 's salary, and my information is that the former Director is under 3992

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 contract unti l August 31 , 1979 and he will continue to receive a salary in accordance with that contract. Another question from the Honourable Member for Rupertsland asked me with respect to the salary of the former Director of the IMPACTE - BUNTEP project and I wish to report that the former Director is receiving the same salary as a travelling professor as he was receiving as Director of the project because he has a contract with Brandon University to be paid that salary . And while I am on my feet , Mr.

Speaker, in relation to this topic I have received an open letter from the students currently in the BUNTEP program , and I will not read all of the letter, but perhaps a few excerp ts. They say, "Our concern is that the recent statements by former Ministers of the previous government are merely an attempt to blow their own political horns and will do the program no good . We are not deceived by these recent manoeuvres by members of the previous government who , during their eight years in office, showed little or no personal interest in our program. This does not involve all members of the opposition ." Mr.

Speaker, I would be very pleased to read the whole letter , but I understand that is not appropriate . I would also be prepared to table this letter . I am sure it will be of interest to the honourable members opposite . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister whether he can indicate, in reply to the quotation which he has just read on the record, whether he can indicate as to whether he is aware as to which administration it was that conceptualized , initiated and put into application programs such as IMPACTE , BUNTEP, PENT, New Careers, all of which impact on the young men and women whose very career opportunities and educational training opportunities are served by those very same programs? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, I am quite aware that it was the previous government that started this particular program, and that somewhat puzzles me as to why they follow a line of insidious questioning that, according to the students and other people involved in this program, is harming the particular program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Minister, in reference to the letter that he received, that some of the same students are writing to us with concerns that we brought up in this Legislature . -(Interjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Has the member got a question? The Honourable Member for Rupertsland .$ MR. BOSTROM: Following the same topic, Mr. Speaker, which was raised here today, and based on concerns that have been expressed to us by students in that program, can the Minister answer the question which I asked him the other day as to why there are now what appears to be three people directing this program,

whereas before there was only one? One of those people, the former Director , is still receiving a Director's salary and being employed only as a travelling professor, and the University President's office is now taking some of the funds for the purpose of directing this program and the President, it appears, is receiving some funds for directing as well as his MR. SPEAKER: Order please . May I suggest to the honourable member that long harangues in the question period are clearly out of order and I would suggest he keep his questions strictly to the point. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR.

BOSTROM: Well , Mr. Speaker , I would finish my question by asking the Minister if he can explain why there now appears to be three Directors

whereas there was only one before, and this is one concern which their students are bringing to our attention? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker , I think I have answered these questions quite adequately and pointed out to the Member for Rupertsland that there is one Acting Director , the new Dean of Education at Brandon Univers ity will become the permanent Director as soon as he arrives and becomes settled in his position. The President of the University of Brandon has shown considerable interest in the programs and I think that has been an asset to this particular program. I would suggest that the Member for Rupertsland read the contents of this particular letter that I have tabled here today 3993

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 signed on behalf of all the BUNTEP students , who say that they will not allow themselves to be used as political pawns by persons whose sincerity for our well-be ing is questionable . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please . Order please . May I suggest to the Honourable Minister that the answers to questions be kept short too . The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

In view of the fact that there are now at least two Directors of this program where there was only one Director before - there are at least two and perhaps two-and-a-half with the Executive Assistant included - why is this prog ram not receiving any new applications for students this year? MR. COSENS: Mr . Speaker, I understand that there will be new students coming into the program this year . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker . I would like to ask the Minister whether the letter that he has received is from a staff person who reports to Mr.

Perkins ' Executive Assistant or whether it's from the students in this BUNTEP program? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker , the letter is signed by a Mrs . M. Ross, who is Student Affairs Officer with BUNTEP . " I have been asked to sign this letter on behalf of the BUNTEP students on campus in spring-summer , 1978." MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker , I wonder if the Minister would acknowledge that that is a person who is in a position that is directly responsible to the President or to the President's Executive Assistant, and whether he has heard anything from the off-campus students of that particular program , which is now being centralized into Brandon instead of decentralized into northern Manitoba where it belongs? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker , I would suggest to the Member for The Pas that the person in question is probably closer to the students in the BUNTEP program than to anyone else.

I am not surprised that he might question her integrity because he has practically questioned the integrity of every other person in the program . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker , the Minister has answered some of the questions that were asked him, and he has chosen not to answer some of the other questions . There were a number of questions asked to him relating to the expense accounts of Dr. Perkins and the Minister agreed to summarize those accounts so we can see what percent of his expenses were being charged to the BUNTEP program as opposed to being used for direct program administration.

I would also like to know from the Minister , who is now somewhat aware of the situation at Brandon , I would like to ask the Minister, how many people are currently being paid out of the BUNTEP funds that are either not working or no longer working for BUNTEP? MR. COSENS: Mr . Speaker, I would have to take that question as notice . I don 't have that type of information at my fingertips . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition . MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, in the hope that it is not altogether premature, I would like to ask the First Minister if he can give some indication based on whatever information, direct and indirect, he has received thus far with respect to last evening's storm that hit the Aubigny area and other parts of southeastern Manitoba, whether it would seem as though the Emergency Measures work is being carried out in its normal expeditious manner, and also whether it is likely that the Federal-Provincial Disaster Amelioration Program will be activated under that formula? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R.

LYON (Charleswood): Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The Mini ste r of Industry and Commerce , myself, and a member of the Emergency Measures staff, along with the Member for 3994

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 Emerson who joined us in Aubigny this morning and we have just completed a quick tour of the area starting this morning . My first comment in response to the question and to give the House some impressions of what we saw, and what we have heard from the residents , w ould be first of all that it is remarkable that there was not more loss of life or injury to the residents of the areas that were affected by th is act of God , this tornado .

I am sure that the House initially would want to join unanimously in an exp ression of sympathy to the family of the young man who was working with the CNR and who was trag ically killed when the storm touched down on the outskirts of Ste . Anne last evening where extensive damage was done to the CNR cars that were parked at that place . We can be grateful in the first instance that there was not more loss of life or injury to our citizens . We visited first of all in Aubigny this morning and the property damage in that community is extensive .

Homes , outbuildings , farms , were all touched in one way or another by the storm. I can only indicate without getting into all of the detail , that one home was moved some 15 feet off its foundations, that a chest -type deep freeze could be observed in the open part of the basement, but that the lady who occup ied the home told me that deep freeze was not their property , it came over from across the street last evening , and was deposited in their basement by the wind.

Another home that we walked through this morning of comparatively new construction, two years old I believe it was, quite an attractive well-built modern home, with the whole roof lifted right off . And so one has to see at first hand the extent of the loss and the extent of the force of this tornado to realize what I say, namely that property damage was extensive . The personal care home in Greenland had a good portion of its roof removed . Fortunately, none of the senior citizens in that home , some 18 in number , was injured, through the competent work of the nursing and care staff there .

They are all out now with relatives or in the nearby hospitals, but there is extensive damage to that home as well . As I mentioned previously, in Ste. Anne there was damage to the CNR cars that were parked on the outskirts of the community; there was extensive damage to a fertilizer plant nearby, and considerable damage to homes and farms on the outskirts and a great loss of trees, indicating primarily the force of the wind . I would like to comment to the House , Mr. Speaker , on the absolutely first-rate work that is being done in Aubigny by the Mennonite Disaster Service .

They were there last evening and on the job today and under the direction of Mr.

Sid Reimer , there are approximately 150 volunteers working as we make this report now, in the community of Aubigny, and the extent of the clean-up that they have been able to achieve and the co-operation that they have been able to extend to the residents of that community , certainly is not only heartwarming , it is encouraging to know that this kind of work is carried on on a volunteer basis by this excellent group who are prepared to move into any community in this province, or indeed in the country, to render the kind of clean-up assistance that they are doing now and to help the civil authorities to restore order and to ensure that proper care is being given to those who are left without homes, and there were a number of course in that category.

I can report that there was nothing but words of praise that we heard in the course of the trip this morning for the crews of Manitoba Hydro, for the crews of Manitoba Telephone System, and for the RCMP , for being on the job immed iately restoring essential services where that was possible, and doing the kind of exemplary work that we have come to expect from the field personnel of the two Crown corporations and of course from the RCMP .

The Emergency Measures Organization of course is available, as a co-ordinator of activities, and it has been made clear that any provincial services that are requested from the Department of Health or Department of Highways, and so on, these requests should be made through the Emergency Measures Organization so that they can then be passed along to the proper departments of government and acted upon accordingly. We had the occasion to meet with most of the council of the Rural Municipality of Ste . Anne .

The Council of the Rural Municipality of Morris was in session in Morris when we were in that area , but the damage principally seems to be confined to those two municipalities , Morris and Ste . Anne , although there is a possibility , according to my colleague , the Honourable House Leader , that there may well have been some scattered damage to the west of the river in the area of Morris Constituency which he is going to take a look at later on today.

From our standpoint , we will be appointing almost immediately a provincial representative to assess the damage that has occurred to property in the area affected by the tornado. We will, as a matter of course , not ify Ottawa of the occurrence , formally notify them of the occurrence of this tornado without at th is time request ing formally any assistance , because as my honourable friend will appreciate , the formula under which Ottawa acts requ ires that there be damage , as I understand it, in excess of $1 million net.

It works out to $1 .00 per capita, before the Ottawa Disaster Relief Assistance would click in. So at this stage I can only report to the House , to the people of Manitoba, in response to my honourable friend 's question , that it would be premature to make any statement 3995

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 relative to Federal or Provincial cash assistance at this stage . What we are involved in, and what the people concerned are involved in at the present time, is clean-up , assessment of damage, the bringing to bear upon the damaged areas of any resources that the province or its Crown Corporations, or other worthy organizations such as the Mennonite Disaster Service can do, and thereafter to assess the damage to see whether or not it qualifies under the Federal rule.

So I will make no further statement on that at this time, because it is really not germane to what is going on in the first 24 hours, which is the clean-up and the restoration so much as possible, of the habitability of homes . I can mention one other fact for my honourable friends' appreciation , as we indeed appreciated it when we saw it. When we first drove into Aubigny this morning , there was a home on which most of the shingles had been stripped off , but there was a crew from the Mennonite Disaster Service already with ladders up there , shovelling off the rest of the shingles .

By the time we had left Aubigny, they had not only shovelled off the shingles, they were starting to reshingle the roof to make the home habitable for the residents of it, so that kind of immediate work is going on and it is, as I said before , extremely heartwarming to see it, and to see the co-operation and the pluck of the people involved in this natural kind of disaster .

So until these damage reports are fully available, which will probably be a matter of days if not weeks , it would be premature to make any comment about cash assistance , but certainly the matter is in hand, as we have seen it this morning and early this afternoon , and we will remain in close consultation with the elected municipal officials and the EMO people , and the communities involved to see if there is any further immediate assistance that can be rendered . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, in thanking the First Minister for his reply or statement , as the case may be, I would like to take note of the parallel between events of last night , the tornado damage, and that of almost exactly a year ago in areas of very near proximity. It seems to involve, whenever this kind of tragedy and damage does strike the province , to be in the southeastern part of the province. The parallel in terms of the work that was carried out by the Mennonite volunteer agency, and by local authorities and the co-ordination by the Provincial Emergency Measures Organization.

I would really like to avoid making a statement , rather I would like to ask the First Minister, that in the event that , again thinking in terms of the parallel with the damage and extent of damage of last year, whether in the event that the Federal-Provincial formula does not apply because the threshold of approximately $1 million is not realized, whether there would be the application of a Provincial-Munic ipal type of program to cover the costs of normally non-insurable damage , in which case the municipal contribution is in the order of a maximum of one dollar per capita, as well.

Will the First Minister undertake to look at this possibility in the event that the Federal-Provincial threshold is not arrived at? MR. LYON: In brief, Mr. Speaker, the answer to the my honourable friend 's question is yes, we will certainly look at it, but as I have indicated before , it would be premature , at this stage, to make any statement about it, or to raise any hopes falsely with respect to Provincial and/or Federal participation .

My honourable friend will be aware, of course , as I know he is, that there is no provincial plan as such under which this kind of emergency in terms of cash assistance can be treated, although an ad hoc plan was developed by his administration with respect to the disaster that he referred to last year, and I have that documentation in front of me, and certainly we will be looking at it as the situation evolves, and as we determine the extent of the damage that we are facing . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Honourable House Leader .

Can he indicate how many more bills are to be introduced? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I shall have to examine the number of bills that have been introduced since the question was asked last and then determine how many more are yet to come . I believe it would perhaps be in the vicinity of approximately between five and ten. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. 3996

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker , sometime ago I took as not ice a question from the Honourable Member for Transcona concerning payment of royalties for gravel and sand used by Mr. Jarmoc in construction of the road in the Whiteshell. The question was whether, in fact , Mr. Jarmoc had paid for the use of this material; the answer was no; then subsequently the Honourable Member for Rupertsland asked why Mr. Jarmoc did not require such a permit, or did not appear to require a permit to remove this material. The answer, Mr.

Speaker , was that the general work permit issued by the Parks Branch included authorization for Mr. Jarmoc to remove material. And on the same day, the honourable member also asked who was responsible for collecting the royalties for that material , and the answer is that the Mineral Resources Division of my department is responsible for that and steps will be taken to collect the appropriate royalties . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. BOSTROM: Yes, thank you , Mr. Speaker.

To follow-up the information given by the Honourable Minister , could he explain to the House why this particular individual was given this special consideration at the time , of not having to pay a royalty on the material which he removed from a Crown gravel pit, and given that other operators in other areas and building other sub-division roads , have to pay for such material as a routine matter? MR. RANSOM: Well , Mr. Speaker , in the general work permit that was issued by the Parks Branch contained an addendum which stated that Mr. Jarmoc would be responsible for paying the appropriate royalties .

The permit provided authorization to use the pit, but stated that he had to pay the royalties , and I might add, Mr . Speaker , that it is not unusual that the royalties would not be paid by this period of time following the use of the material. There are precedents where material has been used to construct roads and the permit was issued sometime after the construction took place, but I can assure the honourable member that my department will be taking appropriate steps to collect the royalties . MR. BOSTROM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

Can the Honourable Minister answer the question as to whether or not this individual was required to post a bond in order to be an operator and removing material from this pit , and further to that , who was responsible for measuring the quantities of material removed from the pit in order that payment can be made on the royalties in the regular way? MR. RANSOM: I have no knowledge of the question of the bond, Mr. Speaker, Speaker , but I certainly will take that as notice.

With respect to determining the amount of material that has been used , that matter will be checked by my department on receipt of an estimate of the amount of material that has been used . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

I would like to address a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce , and ask the Minister whether Tan-Jay Limited, which has recently received a DREE grant, Federal Industr ial Incentive grant , has that company applied to the Manitoba Development Corporation for a loan, or has it received any assistance whatsoever from the Manitoba Development Corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. ROBERT (BOB) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that there is a formal application in before the MDC , and to date there have been no loans made to that company . MR.

EVANS: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise whether his Department of Industry and Commerce has made any grants of any kind whatsoever to that particular company, at this time , to help them with this particular expansion? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker , I would have to check that. I don 't know if there was any assistance with regard to any feasibility grants or anything . I'll have to check that and get back to the member. MR. EVANS: One other question , Mr. Speaker , related to the organization of the Department of Industry and Commerce .

Can the Honourable Minister advise whether he has now decided to retain the trade development branch in his department and/or the Manitoba Trading Corporation, in spite 3997

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 of the rather negative suggestions made by the Task Force on Government Organization and Economy? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker , did the member say retain, or re-train? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker , the word I used was retain, to keep in existence or even expanding if impossible and in view of the stagnating economy that we are now facing , Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask that question. Whether the Minister has any plans to expand the trade development branch activities of his department to help industry in Manitoba? MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker , to answer the previous question , as I mentioned yesterday , the moneys are in the Estimates to keep these people actively on the payroll , and keep them trying to promote and sell Manitoba products . The other thing, we are pursuing forming some stronger relationships with some of our federal counterparts in the Department of Industry , Trade, and Commerce, and we are going to try and use their services as much as possible to try and help Manitobans sell their products across - whether it be in Europe or in Latin-American countries. MR. SPEAKER: Order please .

The allotted time for questioning having expired , we will proceed with the Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker , I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Attorney-General, that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs and the Honourable Member for Crescentwood in the Chair for the Civil Service Commission.$ CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Page 17, Civil Service Commission, Item 1.(

a) Salaries-pass - the Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I have several questions that arise out of today's reports in the press that I would like some clarification from the Minister and possibly she gave us the answer but since Hansard is not out yet , I was not able to check the figures. In today's press, there is a statement purported to have been made by the Minister that the government payroll was reduced by some 1,700 employees since last October . Yesterday , Mr.

Chairman , the Minister, upon questioning from myself and other members on this side , gave us figures to the effect thet there were 165 actual persons laid off , 81 of whom had been regular civil servants , 84 of whom had been term employees of more than one year 's stand ing. In addition to that , she indicated that there were 691, I believe, - I'll just check that figure - 691 contracts that have expired and term positions which were removed, making a total of approximately 856 positions within the Civil Service that have been removed .

I also , and I want the Minister to either correct me or agree with me, am under the iression that the figures that she gave with respect to the 165 were actual persons within positions that were laid off . I was under that impression . Okay.

Also, with respect to the 691 there were some persons in those positions and they were just positions that were not filled of the remaining contracts and term positions less than a year . -(Inter jection) - Well , the 691, I was informed yesterday were contracts that had been expired and I made a note here: "Contract or term of less than a year ," there were 691 positions in addition to the 165, making a total of 856 positions .

I would like the Minister to specifically give me the information as to the 691, whether there were actual persons in those positions or they were just positions that had been eliminated and also, to ascertain for me where she received , and how she arrived at the figure of 1, 700. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Labour . 3998

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 MRS. PRICE: I would prefer to wait until I read Hansard to see the figure of 1,700. I was talking in figures of 1,300 and I would like to refer to Hansard first . MR. URUSKI: Well , okay the n, let' s use the Ministe r' s figure now of 1,300. If the Minister can provide for me how she makes up the figure of 1,300, I will discount that figure in the press and use her figure of 1 ,300 . MRS.

PRICE: Well , I mention the number 691 that were contract and somebody asked me yesterday whether some of them were contracts that had run out or they were all people that some had been let out and I took it as notice and I haven 't come back with the answer yet but I will get it. MR. URUSKI: I see, of the 691 then there were some vacant pos itions that were eliminated as well. MRS. PRICE: At this point , I can 't give you an answer unt il I . . . MR. URUSKI: Okay , and so including the 165, plus those 691, gives us a figure of roughly 856 or roughly 860 as a total.

Now there still is a difference of 450 , somewhere in that vicinity, that were eliminated. I would like to know where those positions were and what they were . You see, the impression that is left , Mr. Chairman , is that the government payroll was reduced by 1,700. That impression that is left is that there were 1, 700 civil servants that were let off , whether they were term employees , contract , casua l or whatever might be. The impress ion that is left is that there were 1, 700 people let go .

Now if the Minister without Portfolio now is saying that there were positions which were not filled, which had been vacant for some time prior to that, then I want to know and I want the Minister to tell me. MRS. PRICE: Those figures include other permanent and temporary positions that weren 't filledtthat went vacant through attrition and after October . MR. URUSKI: Which figures are you talking about? MRS. PRICE: The 1 ,300. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister without Portfolio responsible for the Task Force . MR.

SIDNEY SPIVAK (River Heights): Well, possibly I can clarify this so that there won 't be any misunderstanding . MR. WALDING: Is he speaking on a point of order, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: No, he asked if he could be recognized to help clarify a statement which the Member forSt. George is partly making reference to . MR. WALDING: On a point of order , Mr . Chairman , . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital on a point of order . MR. WALDING: ... I understand that you are keeping a list of speakers and MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR.

WALDING: ... and that if the Minister wishes to speak, surely he should put his name down the same as every other member of the committee has to do unless , of course , he has a point of order or a matter of privilege, for which he can interrupt the proceedings . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well , to the Member for St . Vital , the Member for St.

George and other members have been questioning the Minister on the reduction of staff people and they have brought into play figures that have been used by the Minister without Portfolio as well as figures that she has used and so he is of the opin ion that he might be able to clarify the matter. MR. URUSKI: Mr . Chairman , on a point of privilege now. I did not make any reference to statements made by the Minister without Portfolio . I made reference specifically to the statements that have been attributed to the Minister of Labour , the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission , 3999

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 in yesterday's press that she made to this committee. She indicated now to members and to myself in questioning , that she did not use the figure of 1, 700. I have accepted her statement that she did not use that figure .

However, during yesterday's questioning, the tota l number of staff positions and staff reductions that she provided this committee with totalled , in my figures, 856 of which is made up in two parts , 691, which includes the contracts which have either expired and have not been renewed and also includes term positions of less than a year, and an additional 165 actual persons who were laid off, 81 of whom were full-time civil servants and 84 of whom were term employees with service of more than one year.

Those are the two figures that she presented us; however, in today 's press there is a statement purported to have been made by the Minister that the Civil Service government payroll was reduced by 1,700 and she indicates now that she did not use the figure of 1, 700 but that there was a figure of 1,300. Now, I wanted to elicit from the Minister how she arrived at the figure of 1,300. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Labour. MRS. PRICE: To the Member for St. George , I said that I don 't recall using the figure 1,700; I was using the word 1,300.

I would like to read off some figures for the pay period between October 21st and May 5th, 1978. The change , the reduction in the staff was 258 civil servants, 392 term employees, of which 109 -(Interjection)- Are you writing? I'm sorry. MR. URUSKI: Yes, I'm trying to . MRS. PRICE: Oh, sorry . MR. URUSKI: Pay period of what period? MRS. PRICE: October 21st to May 5th . MR. URUSKI: 1977 to 1978. MRS. PRICE: Right. MR. URUSKI: Okay . Now ... . MRS. PRICE: There was a reduction of 258 civil servants. MR. URUSKI: Positions or people ? MRS. PRICE: People. MR. URUSKI: Okay. Full-time civil servants. MRS. PRICE: Right.

MR. URUSKI: Okay. MRS. PRICE: Term employees , 392 in total , of which 109 were permanent and 283 were temporary . MR. URUSKI: People? MRS. PRICE: Right. And contract employees , 685, for a total of 1,335 and that is net. MR. URUSKI: Contract positions were all filled? With people? MRS. PRICE: 1 have some answers to some of the questions that the Member for St. George asked me yesterday when you would like them . MR. URUSKI: Yes. I just want to - just to finish that off , it's 1,335 people. MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. URUSKI: Were there any in addition to that? Could the Minister , in the breakdown that she 4000

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 has given me, if she is unable to supply it now, prepare a list , depar tment by department , as to where the specific cuts have been made in staff? Is that available? MRS. PRICE: I read that off yesterday , I don 't know where you were . MR. URUSKI: No, yesterday 's figures that you read off to me, if I recall, were related to 165 staff . MRS. PRICE: Oh, I see. MR. URUSKI: Yes. And that went through all the departments and I believe made my figures - I was out on one, but it was right on . But it dealt with 165. MRS. PRICE: I would like to suggest to the Member for St.

George that there has been such confusion over these figures that I would like to suggest that I get a report and I get it checked and present it to the House for you in its entirety . MR. URUSKI: During the Estimates? MRS. PRICE: I can get them for you today or tomorrow . MR. URUSKI: Yes, what I would like , if it's poss ible, through you, Mr. Chairman, to have them put into the record if they are not to be read so they will be included along with a record of Hansard. Is that possible? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well , I have to seek some guidance from the Clerk.

What if we were fortunate enough to finish this department today and yet the Minister can't supply it until tomorrow or the following day, how do we get it into Hansard? What if she tables it right with the Legislature, right in the Chamber, is that not good enough? And then it can be added to Hansard a day or two later, is that all right? MR. URUSKI: Yes, that's okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: Or, as the Clerk says, it doesn't even have to be added to Hansard if it is tabled with sufficient copies. Is that satisfactory? MR. URUSKI: Fine, that's satisfactory , Mr. Chairman. Thank you. MRS.

PRICE: I think the reason being that there are some figures that come from Management Committee, some come from the Task Force and some come from the Civil Service and there's been just such a confusion of figures that that's probably more satisfactory to you too. MR. URUSKI: Please, tha would be. MRS. PRICE: I have some notes here if the Member for St. George would like to bear with me. Yesterday the Member for St.

George and some of his colleagues asked me questions that I have the answers for . !believe it was the Member for Lac du Bonnet who asked me about the number of civil servants as at the end of the fiscal year 1977-78 . I can advise that there were 10,941 civil servants as of March 24 , 1978 . I gave a figure yesterday out of the annual book of 11,073 which represented the number of civil servants as of December , 1977 .

I am informed that even more recent figures might be obta ined from Personnel Administration Branch of Management Committee of Cabinet during the examination of the Executive Council 's Estimates . I would also like to advise members that the number of temporary employees as of March 24 , 1978 , was 1,126 and that the number of contract employees as of March 26 , 1978 was 660 . I might point out, Mr . Chairman , that these figures are compiled on the same basis as those described in the Annual Report and can be upda ted during the review of Executive Council , the body responsible for maintaining them .

I was also asked yesterday when the most recent Commissioners were appointed by the government. Shirley Bradshaw and R. 0. Hunter were appointed part -time Commissioners for a period of one year effective Octobe r 26 , 1977 . On the subject of Commissioners , I can respond to another inquiry about the date of the appointment of the current chairman of the Commission and the change in status of Mr. Duncan . The Order-in-Council No. 1098 / 77 changed the status of Douglas Duncan from full-time to part-time 4001

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 relative to the business of the Commission and provided for Merlin Newton to replace Mr. Duncan as a full-time member. The effective date was October 26, 1977. As I mentioned yesterday, these transactions were authorized in accordance with Sections 4, subsection 1 and

Section 4, subsection 2 of The Civil Service Act. Just before the end of the session last night, the Member for Winnipeg Centre asked me about the number of appeals received by the Civil Service Commission related to dismissals . I would like to inform the member that the Commission has received no formal appeals for dismissal since January, 1977, however, two appeals were heard by the Commission relative to layoffs. It should be noted that employees within the collective agreement may appeal through an arbitration board which is handled through Staff Relations Branch of Management Committee.

It is quite possible then that some appeals have been processed in this manner and I would suggest that the honourable member might asK his question during the Executive Council Estimates to obtain the complete picture. There were several other questions, Mr. Chairman, which clearly fell under the authority of the Executive Council, so I have endeavoured to collect as much information for members as I could. The question was asked, how many full-time vacant positions there were as of October 31, 1977? The figure I have received for October 23, 1977, is 1, 134.

With respect to the question concerning the number of full-time positions eliminated, there were 401 positions eliminated as of the fiscal year ending March 24, 1978. Another question, Mr. Chairman, regarding the number of new positions created since October 31 , 1977, I can report that as of the new fiscal year beginning March 25, 1978, approximately 138 new positions were established . I was also asked questions with respect to the number of employees hired and released since October, 1977, and the total financial settlements for those who were laid off .

The request for this information was previously made by an order for return, and the information to that effect is currently being gathered for submission to the House . The Member for Transcona asked me a question about two specific individuals; Joy Cooper and Grant Wichenko. I'm advised that both of them are on an availability list maintained by the Civil Service Commission. I regret that I am unable to provide more detailed information, as both of them currently have cases that are being considered by a Board of Arbitration, and further comment might tend to prejudice the proceedings. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to table two items which were requested yesterday: there's the letter from the Accountant from my department and also the organizational chart that you requested. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: With the Clerk being absent right now, maybe the Member for St. Vital can give me a hand. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister, in supplying us with the figures that she did just now, giving us the number of 1,335 staff that were released since October of 1977, indicated that she gave us a figure now of 258 civil servants which were released.

However, yesterday, during questioning , she gave us a figure of 165 civil servants of whom 84 were term and 81 were full-time civil servants, yet, in addition to the 258 today, we have 109 permanent term employees. I presume those are over one year 's duration, and we have 283 temporary term employees - I presume that category are employees of less than one year or less than six month's duration. I'd like that clarified, because those figures just don't jibe, if she wouldn't mind commenting on them. MRS. PRICE: The 258, Mr.

Chairman, are the 258 that haven 't been filled, they came about by attrition and the 165 were actually laid off . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , unless the Minister misunderstood me, I was quite specific when I asked her, and it was confirmed not only by herself , but by her colleague who nodded his head, the Minister without Portfolio, when I spoke about the 1,335 positions, I asked him whether it was people, and he said, yes. He spoke about people. Now,' the Minister tells me that it is not people , there are positions that have been in those figures. Now, please, I would like some clarification of it.

Which of those figures within 1 ,335 are actual persons, which of those figures are positions that were deleted? Could she give us the entire breakdown once again? MRS. PRICE: Well, the breakdown is just as I gave the Member for St. George . They were all people, they weren't all actually laid off, some resigned, but they were all people , the 1,335. MR. URUSKI: Okay, then how does the 258 match up with the 165, of today versus 4002

Tuesday , June 20, 1978 MRS. PRICE: 81 were civil servants. MR. URUSKI: It's a figure of 93 positions . MRS. PRICE: In the 258, 81 were actually laid off in the civil servants . MR. URUSKI: 81 . MRS. PRICE: And the balance was attrition . MR. URUSKI: And the difference? MRS. PRICE: The balance of them from the 258 were by attrition . MR. CHAIRMAN: Retirements and so on. MR. URUSKI: Retirements and the lik? MRS. PRICE: Yes, or promoted or transferred . MR. URUSKI: Well , when you talk about transferring and promoted , do those figures not end up in the number in other departments? MRS.

PRICE: Yes, it's possible that they could. MR. URUSKI: Well okay , could the Minister then tell me of those remaining , that's 177, of those then let's be more specific - let's find out who has been promoted, how many were promoted, how many have retired, how many have been transferred and to where, and what the status of the 177 are? Are those figures available? MRS. PRICE: Those figures will all be given to you in the Executive Council report , and as I suggested earlier, I will be prepared to have an extensive report with the figures that pertain to the Civil Service _made and presented to the House.

But those figures go under the Executive Council, and you'll get them in their Estimates. MR. URUSKI: Well , can I become more specific then and question the Minister with respect to those 177? Did those people, of the 177 that she speaks of, actually leave the Civil Service, or as a result of say, promotions , were those positions done away with and new ones created in the new positions that they took over? MRS. PRICE: I am informed that they could have gone from one position to another, and the position that they left would not be refilled . MR.

URUSKI: Right, so the actual number of people who have left the Civil Service still remains at 81, or .. MRS. Price: Yes. MR. URUSKI: Or is there any that were in that 177 that have actually retired from the Civil Service? I am presuming, of course, that in that 81 are the resignations and the terminations. MRS. PRICE: Pardon me? MR. URUSKI: I am assuming, or the Minister can correct me, that out of that 81 figure that she gave me were regular civil servants , that those were either those who resigned voluntarily or were terminated . MRS.

PRICE: No, they were actual layoffs, the 81 ; out of the 165, 21 resigned and 29 had been re-employed elsewhere, but the 81 were actual layoffs . MR. URUSKI: Layoffs . Okay. Were there others that have retired? 4003

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 MRS. PRICE: Yes, there have been some retirements and they are in the 177 figure, where you take the 81 off the 258. MR. URUSKI: So that in effect, of the 1 ,335, that figure, dealing with full-time civil servants, the actual numbers are of persons who either retired , were laid off, resigned or terminated , is somewhat less than the 258 figure that the Minister gave, to understand that properly? Because I presume that some persons were promoted and that position was eliminated as a result of promotion, so that they actually did not leave the Civil Service. What I'm trying to establish, Mr.

Chairman, is not the number of staff man years or SMYs as the figure is within the Civil Service; I want to know how many people actually lfft ; not the numbers of positions that may have been open and not filled and the like . That 's what I'm getting at, and if I could have those figures .? MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for St.

George , one of the drawbacks, as I see it, is that a goodly number of people come under the Civil Service Commission, then there 's a handful of people that come under Executive Council which are management , and we are dealing with civil servants, we are dealing with term people , whether they be contract people or tempo rary people and so on, and the Minister has offered to give you a complete breakdown of all persons in the Civil Service, those that were terminated, those that retired and left for other reasons .

And also, I believe you requested that breakdown pertaining to departments, and this is a fair amount of work, I would think , and she has said that the staff will get it for you within the next day or two. MR.

URUSKI: Yes, well, the only thing is, the statements that were made, and maybe the Minister is as confused as I am, but I certainly am confused on the figures that she has given me because during the discussions we talked about actual people leaving the Civil Service, and yet within our discussions now, upon trying to clarify just the permanent civil servants , the 258 figure that she gave us - leaving aside all the rest of the temporary, the term employees - I am finding, or at least I gather from her information, that there were some positions that were not filled or removed and no people actually left the Civil Service; they may have changed jobs, which eliminated the position, but there wasn't a net reduction in staff .

And yet there is that figure, and that's what I'm trying to get at. And if that will be available I want to make sure that all the figures come in, because if the figures that come in are strictly the numbers that we have received here and there is no clear delineation as to what had happened and who went where , then they will be meaningless, because then that 1,300 figure will remain and yet it still will not give us the answer that I am seeking . Is that ... ? MRS. PRICE: Yes.

I would like to, in consulation with the Task Force figures and the Civil Service figures , come back with a complete report for you, and I think if you have it on paper in front of you, and we all do, then it will be much less confusing. And I will have it in the next day or two . MR. URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Unless there are some questions from my colleagues on the numbers , I have other areas I want to go to, but maybe I could leave that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selkirk. MR.

PAWLEY: I would like to just ask for some brief clarifi catio ns, and if my colleague has already asked this question then please so indicate, because I don't want to waste the committee's time. But in both the Winnipeg Tribune and the Winnipeg Free Press today ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, to the Member for Selki rk, we've just gone over that and ... MR. PAWLEY: see. So, those statements are incorrect and I . . . MRS. PRICE: I don 't recall using the number 1,700. I haven't seen the paper, nor have I seen Hansard, but I said I will look into it. I have been using the figure 1,300. MR.

PAWLEY: Could I just also inquire from the Minister , because I had asked questions yesterday about the vacant positions and how many of those vacant positions as of October 31st were eliminated, and how many of those positions are included in the figure of 1,300?! MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for Selkirk, the Minister took a number of questions yesterday as notice and came back today and has just moments ago completed reading about a four-and-a-half page report with many answers . 4004

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 MR. PAWLEY: Fine, I shall read that in Hansard . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. J.R. (Bud) BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Chairman . Last night the Minister of Finance undertook to accept an order for return to provide us with comparable print-outs which in the final analysis will be the proof of the pudding of just how many people are or are not employed within the Civil Service . It's going to be interesting, Mr. Chairman, to find out just exactly how many people are hidden by the government.

I think of one particular case where the salary of one employee with the John Howard and Elizabeth Fry was being paid and that it was a former civil servant who had been seconded to this . But my opinion is that we can 't get any further in probing figures because we can play games all day with figures , and Public Accounte of course comes out and we can count noses and dollars and the rest of it. But the Minister had undertaken to answer another question relative to whether Mr.

Duncan - and I know the Minister doesn't want to discuss it, but nevertheless, I had asked her this one question and she undertook to find out whether the cheques proffered to Mr. Duncan had been endorsed. You know , I understand that he may need money to live on, but I wonder if he has endorsed and deposited these cheques without prejudice or whether he has deposited them into a trust account, or whether Mr. Duncan has actually received funds as suggested by the Minister, that he is n fact drawing money from the Superannuation Fund .? MRS.

PRICE: I understand that there have not been any cheques returned to the Superannuation Department and so at this point there must be something in the works , and I would ask the member not to ask me and to go ahead with his questioning to the First Mini ter when he gets his Estimates into the House . MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman , I want to thank the Minister for the answer from her position, which I accept as being , you know - the only answers she can give are based on her own information . And also , on the other question I had asked her about appeals to the Board. In looking at another area, Mr.

Chairman, with reference to the Civil Service itself, I would like to put on record the co-operation that, in my brief tenure of office, I received from the staffing people within the Civil Service, the Civil Service staff , who made an attempt to understand the objectives of the government and try to meet the needs of those objectives by attracting personnel to some pretty difficult areas . But I wonder , Mr. Chairman , just exactly what is taking place in this particular capacity of government.

I was astounded when the Premier , in his wisdom, decided to appoint me to the Executive Council , to find out the limited capacity of our Civil Service to deal with such a monolith. Having spent some time in the private sector and being impressed that the most important asset that a company has are those people who are employed by it - they all had rather large capacities to deal with personnel problems , the careers and everything else within that system - I listened to the Minister' s earlier remarks in which she said that there were counselling services and things of this nature .

But I'll have to express an opinion, Mr. Chairman, that one of the things that causes problems within large organizat ions is the loss of touch by the people at the top with those people who are actually faced with the problem of delivering a service . A good case in point is the Post Office.

In my judgment, the technological advances which were imposed on the system without thepproper involvement of the staff has led to the current difficulty because the people who , on a day-to-day basis are faced with the problem of distributing mail in the country really figure that the rest of the society , everybody that's demanding these services don 't give a t inker's damn about them as people, and this builds up resentments and frustrations and the rest of it.

So I would like to ask the Minister relative to this particular item just exact ly what her opinions and views are and how she thinks she is going to handle two problems. One deals with redundancy and the other deals with burn-out. Now these are two terms that they use in management . In dealing with redundancy , this is one of the problem areas , and I share with the Minister the difficulty of resolv ing some of these prob lems when a particular thrust program or production of a particular th ing becomes redundan t, how the people are going to be redeployed . But it is necessary from time to time .

A case that epitomizes just how ridiculous some things can get some times: the story is told, that dur ing the Second World War when there was a possibility of England being invaded , they deployed troops on the English coast and , in so doing , they discovered that there was a nice little stanc hion there with gravel around it and a rope and a bell ; that a civil service position had been established to ring the bell when they spotted the Spanish fleet. And stories go on like this. When 4005

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 you see people shooting off batte ries out here every year , and there's five men stan ding there - if you ask them why the fifth man is standing there , he's still stand ing there to hold the horses . So redundancy is a real problem . Nevertheless , there is within the Civil Service , by and large , a group of ded icated people who provide excellent service in the interests of the public and I wonder just exactly what the Minister intends after she has told us about the cutbacks and the capacity of this staff to deal with career planning . It is possible , I would suggest , Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister , that when governments see emphasis being changed that they can actually plan for the redeployment of the people long in advance of the imposition of the guillotine . So with reference to redundancy , I would ask the Minister what her plans are in this regard . MRS. PRICE: Mr.

Chairman , to the Member for Winnipeg Centre , what we are doing with this period of restraint and program that this government is going through , i s r e-evaluating the different programs , positions and job desc riptions and hope to come out with a much higher performance in the Civil Service , that the performance will be the best possible . We figure that in some areas there has been an over-abundance of staff and probably in some the re hasn't been enough .

What we are doing is evaluating the different departments ; we will have repo rts back and we will move people as we feel will be to the betterment of the operation . MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman , that's very interesting , because in listening to the other Ministers present their Estimates - each one as they have appeared before the committee with their Estimates - they said that there has been no fat within the Civil Service , that these people are all earning their keep . I was wondering if the Minister could identify just exactly which department she is referring to. MRS.

PRICE: Well, I'm starting with my own department , the Department of Labour. There are some areas that we feel have enough staff ; we feel that there are some that could have more and that some have too much ; we're working on that . I haven't heard the other Ministers so I can't vouch for their statements , but I do feel that by taking a good hard look at it, there are areas where we will be able to have a higher rate of performance by studying them , and this is what we are doing precisely in the Civil Service . MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr .

Chairman , I would suggest for the Ministe r' s information that she read the remarks of her colleague, the Minister of Health , for example , in which he says that within the department all of the people are doing an excellent job , etc. etc . etc . I can 't give her the particular page in Hansard . MR. CHAIRMAN: Just which hour of the 58 hours . MR. BOYCE: Well , just in raising that question , Mr.

Chairman, as I was sitting here last night - it's too bad that we don 't impose the rule that they print in Hansard the particular time - like in Ottawa, they print on the left-hand side of the columns the time of the day that it is - because it seems that we are perhaps belabouring some issues. But just on that fact , I know some of my friends opposite are a little chagrined at the time that we're tak ing in passing the Estimates of the government but, nevertheless , ludicrous charges were made - not by us - a bunch of horror stories were going to be told .

We keep waiting for the horror stories , the amount of deficits , the inefficiency of the Civil Service Commission , the Civil Service itself and all the rest of it; all these accusations were made and , of course , haven 't been substantiated . As far as the figures are concerned , Mr. Chairman , Public Accounts will review once again just exactly the number of civil servants who were employed at any particular time . I imagine, in fact 1 know, that the Provincial Auditor will address himself to the true presentation of the dollars and noses and all the rest of it.

But another point that I had raised and it seems such a fluffy area when we were - you know , and it is so easy to skirt away from as the Minister just did on this other particular item about redundancies, because a nebulous answer really means nothing.

But in many of the things that they deal with within the Civil Service, it involves people being involved with other individuals and some of them in very intense situations, and where people are able to stand the buffeting of this type of involvement, when they 're in their mid-twenties , and in their early thirties , there is, in management terms, burn-out - that there has to be some lateral escape for these people so that they can be given an opportunity to have meaningful employment and plan for that day when they will need to transfer their efforts to some other area .

So, being forewarned by the nebulousness of the Minister 's answer relative to which she intends to do about redundancy , I wonder what she plans to do about burn -out of the staff? 4006

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 MRS. PRICE: The Chairman here is giving me some answers to give to the member , to tell him that I am encouraging jogging amongst all the older members of the Civil Service; that's why I was grinning . All I can say is what I have said before , that we are working at studying the different departments, we are evaluating all the different programs , and I can only say at this point that this is the procedure we feel is necessary in order to get the best performance out of the departments.

And with regard to what my colleagues have said, I can 't be responsible for what they say, nor did I hear what they said ; I haven 't been listening to their Estimates. But I know what we are doing in this department, and that's precisely what we are doing . MR. BOYCE: Well , Mr.

Chairman , from this organizational chart that was given to us by the Minister entitled "Staff of Civil Service Commission ," I assume from this chart - and would the Minister coirect me if I'm wrong - that there are 10 personnel, professional personnel people deployed >~- to look after the problems of employees within the Civil Service . MRS. PRICE: Well, they have a few chores to consider. They are concerned with various aspects of job management , job analysis, any staffing problems that are - they all come under these officers .

I don 't know if the Member for Winnipeg Centre has noticed , one is from Thompson and one is from Brandon , so there 's eight, actually, in Winnipeg . MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I noticed that. But is the Minister familiar with how many people are involved in delivery of personnel serv ices within organizat ions in the private sector of comparable size? The present government is always fond of using , for example , the efficiency of the private sector .

Can the Minister provide us with some figures to compa re the capacity of an employer who has 12,000 employees with that which the Civil Service has deployed to resolve the problems relative to personnel? MRS. PRICE: I think that would be a little difficult, to get figures as a comparison with a company that has 12,000 employees . I understand our figures compare favourably with the other jurisdictions . Out of those 10 that you had mentioned, I mentioned that two were regional and there 's a third that's a personnel assistant , which brings down the staffing officers to seven.

No - one, two , three, four - six, and they process some 25,000 applications per year. MR. BOYCE: Yes, I realize that it's not something which would be extant , Mr. Chairman, a comparison between organizations in the private sector and the public sector, but nevertheless the present government has made much to-do about the big , fat Civil Service and I kept wondering about where all these bums were, because when I was in there I came across people always willing to go the extra mile .

I don 't know how many companies around are doing a business of 1.6 billions of dollars delivered by a staff of some 12,000 , or whatever it is, that would have a staff this thin. It would be very interesting for the Minister, if she doesn't know. A goodly number of people in the community have worked at Eaton's at one time or other , and I would suggest that Eaton's as one of the larger employers has a much larger staff than this relative to : personnel. Really what is under discussion, Mr.

Chairman , is the staff which is dealing with all of the problems - hiring, firing and all the rest of it - relative to the Civil Service which delivers the programs of the government and we heard much by the present administration about the inefficiency of this Civil Service . When you are talking about 25,000 - this is the figure that the Minister used . . . As a Minister , Mr. Chairman , only once did I ever call for all of the applications relative to a particular bulletin , and I asked for them out of curiosity as to exactly how the people arrived at the decision to forward three names , which I agree with.

The road back to Toronto goes back , so maybe a few more years from now that will go back to the rule of three , and if we have to put it in statute well , perhaps we should put it in statute , because I don't think the government should hide behind the fact that a political appointee is making the recommendation rather than the Ministers themselves. But Mr. Chairman , the file of applications that these people were required to deal with to make a judgment as to whom to recommend to the Minister to hire, is just fantastic .

And the fact that the beast works at all is the miracle, because when you are talking about 25,000 applications for positions and these have to be evaluated , and it's time-consuming . There are eight people in the city of Winnipeg that are dealing with all of these staffing problems with the assistance from the people from the department who sit on the Boards or whoever is involved , and here is another example , Mr. Chairman, of the lie that was made by the present administration in the campaign that they went through this province , in kidding the people it was a big, fat Civil Service doing nothing.

Here is another component: I have mentioned earlier that each Minister as they have stood in their place has said that there was no fat , that by som miracle they were going to be able to maintain 4007

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 their programs by reducing the staff by - what is it? 39? - They've actually reduced it by 39. I'm going to use a new figure . If the Minister of Industry and Commerce can pull a figure out of the air and say, " A billion dollars has left the province," you know, I can pull out another figure at the other end of the scale and I'll say, "Thirty-n ine civil servants have been actually reduced by this government." But to be somewhat more serious , it is all serious because it has become a farce .

We started off with the task farce report and we get into this bunch of Estimates that were chipped and chopped and hacked long before any recommendations were forthcoming from this group of the elite who ran through the Civil Service looking for fat and looking for the rest of it. I think it should be underlined in the record , Mr. Chairman - I don't know most of these people , I know some of them because they worked in areas in which I had some responsibility - but it should be underlined that 10 people throughout the province are deal ing with 25,000 applications for posit ions.

On top of that, all of the things which the Minister said she was going to do in her earlier statement, Mr. Chairman, that she was going to provide counselling service and she was going to talk to these employees and she was going to do all of these things , which is on the record what the Minister is going to do. The proof of the pudding is going to be in the eating .

The proof of the figures that the Minister has used - and she will be right or wrong - will be in the Public Accounts and the Finance Ministe r has undertaken , last evening, to file in response to an Order for Return , print-outs of comparable pay periods so that we can monitor this from time to time . It's going to be very interesting, Mr. Chairman . I would close by expressing the opi nion that in my view, the Civil Service Act has been circumvented in fact, but that will have to be determined by other than members of this committee .

It possibly will have to follow that route and we will await the decision of the courts relative to that particular item . Mr. Chairman , I want to thank the Minister for answering the questions with the information which she has provided to us. Any question that we have asked she has tried to answer and really the candor of the Minister has, in my view, got herself into a little diff iculty because she has tried to answer them .

But , here again, we just underline the propaganda and false accusations of the present administration for no other purposes than to get elected ; they couldn 't fulfill their election promises . The information that they used was false . The Member for St. Matthews , it was very interesting, rose in the House the other day and said that politicians were held in ill-repute, or something, and we have do do something to raise the esteem of politicians and yet he is party to the presentation of information which cannot be substantiated .

I'm making these statements now and I think time will prove my statement to be correct, that when the Public Accounts are actually printed , we'll find that the government is dealing with vacancy rates. But they 're going to fill positions faster but they're going to be dealing by and large with the same numbers - 39 less I've suggested . Mr. Chairman, I, for one, and I don 't know how many of my other colleagues want to speak on this but I would suogest that we pass all of the Estimates of the -(I nterjection)- Well, my friend, the Member for St. George says, " No," and I want to disagree with my friend from St.

George. I think we should pass all of these Estimates because the case is just going to be a repetition of the same case, point by point by point , figures which cannot be substantiated: 1,700 in the press; 369, 452 and mine, 39. So we will go through line-by-line and we will accomplish nothing . I think the press i tired ; I think we're tired and I think the case has been made that the government cannot substantiate their charges that there was inefficiency within the Civil Service. I rest my case, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn 't take any

part in the discussion yesterday preferring to listen to my colleagues ask the questions . I was rather confused as to much of the discussion about Mr. Duncan and in talking it over with my colleagues and reading the press today, I would like to ask the Minister : Is Mr. Duncan still a member of the Civil Service Commission? MRS. PRICE: Yes, he is. MR. WALDING: The Minister gave us a couple of figures earlier this afternoon at the beginning of our discussion . I believe that she mentioned that Mr. Duncan according to an Order-in-Council on October 26th was demoted from his full-time position to a part-time position . Is that correct? MRS. PRICE: That's correct. 4008

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 MR. WALDING: Was that demotion in effect as of that date? MRS. PRICE: Yes, it was but as was mentioned last night , these topics are to come up under the First Minister's Estimates. MR. WALDING: I would lik to refer to the letter that the Minister tabled this afternoon from a B.D. Scarsbrook to a Mr. M .. Myers concerning Mr. Duncan and which mentions a two-week payment in lieu of notice. Can the Minist er tell the committee which two-week pay period that represents? MRS. PRICE: I couldn 't tell you but ... Are you not prepared to wait to ask these questions of the First Minister?

These come under him and he is prepared to answer them and I would suggest that , as the Member for Winnipeg Centre said, all this has been gone over before ; it's all repetitious and he is prepared to answe r them and I am prepared to tab le a full report of all the figures so that nobody will be confused . After we have consul tation with Management Committee, the Task Force Minister and the Civil Service, I am prepared to give you a full report. MR. WALDING: I only had a couple of questions , Mr.

Chairman , I don 't believe that they were complicated but I believe that they would help to clarify the matter in my mind . I wonder if the Ministe r would be able to confirm that this two-week payment would be for the period beginning December 14th as suggested in the letter . MRS. PRICE: I haven't got the letter in front of me and I can 't answer that without speaking to the people in the treasury . . MR. WALDING: I could read it to the Minister . It says, "Enclosed please find payroll cheque (with a number) dated December 14, 1977 in the amount of $1,515.51 .

This represents two weeks payment in lieu of notice ." Now would the Minister assume that that would represent the two weeks following December 14th? MRS. PRICE: I'm not prepared to assume anything. I'd rather get the answer for you. MR. WALDING: Can the Minister tell the committee whether that amount of just over $1 ,500 represents two weeksB pay for Mr. Duncan as a full-time member of the Commission? MRS. PRICE: I would presume that would be it. MR. WALDING: Then can the Minister tell the committee why the government was still paying Mr.

Duncan as a full-time Commissioner at the end of December when his appointment in that position ceased on October 26th, two months previous. MRS. PRICE: I will go back to asking you to ask the First Minister these questions. MR. WALDING: Does the Minister not know, Mr. Chairman, is this the reason or does she not wish to tell the committee? MRS. PRICE: Well, Mr. Duncan either comes under one Estimate or another and the First Minister is prepared to answer being as how the time structure was such that it was one day after our taking office and I am suggesting that you ask him.

They will come under him and he is prepared to answer them . MR. WALDING: The Ministe didn 't answer my question, Mr. Chairman. The question was: Does the Minister not know or is she not willing to tell us? MRS. PRICE: I don't know, that's why I'm saying I would suggest that you ask him and he will have the answers for you . MR. WALDING: That's fair enough, Mr. Chairman, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: In accordance with Rule 19(2), the hour of 4:30 having arrived, I am interrupting proceedings of the committee for Private Members' Hour. We will return at 8 o'clock .t. SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS 4009

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats: I would direct the honourable members to Page 64 in the book of Estimates , Northern Affairs and Renewable Resources and Transportation Services. We are on Resolution No. 95. 1.(c)

(1) Salarie s and Wages, $77,400 -pass - the Honourable Minister . HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr . Chairman, in the spirit of co-operation that we have been having between myself and the members of the opposition in relationship to our Estimates, I would like to file with you for their observation the chart for the Administrative Support Services . MR. BOSTROM: My question on th is

section is, I believe we are on 1.(c); is that correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)

(1) Salaries and Wages . The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, if I could , Mr. Chairman, I'd like to answer a question that was raised I believe , by the ... I don 't want to interrupt , but I didn't know if I had the paper with me ... the Municipal unconditional grants - I think it was the Member for The Pas that raised it, or both . The source of the funding was the question and it turns out to be an excellent question because there is no real appropriation as we find it and I don't believe there was under any previous administrations .

It's moneys that is received by the Provincial Government from the Federal Government of taxes that are collected , turned over to the Munic ipal Affairs Department who in turn we tell them the amounts that are required and they then issue them . There was a question , a further one I believe , as to the amounts that were paid as an initial payment , I think I titled it last night. I don 't think there was any debate or question in relationship to whether that term applied .

In the initial payment that was paid last year - and I would have to guess at it , it was during th summer months - the unconditional grant was $172,388.40 and the special grant was $26,658.00. That was to communities . I'll break that out because there's two groups involved here. To the bands , the Indian bands , the unconditional grant that was paid last year was $433,110 and the special grant , Mr . Chairman , was $86 ,622.00. The other question that was asked as to how much is forthcoming after calculations. To the communities , Mr. Chairman, there 's $23,766.40 that's still to come .

To the Indian bands there's $138 ,760.80 that is still forthcoming , and I'd like to answer to the legitimate queries of the Member for The Pas as to when it's going out. We believe that it will be going out within 30 days . The other question , if not posed certainly will be, and again quite legitimately, when will 1978's be going out and that, Mr. Chairman , will be going out some time in August. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. BOSTROM: Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

The Assistant Deputy Minister appropriation that's before us, Salaries and Wages, can the Minister just explain what this all entails and who is the individual involved here? What are his responsibilities? Who reports to him and who does he report to in the organizational structure of your department? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , there was a - and I say " was" . He's still certainly very alive but on the particular page in question we're talking about an Assistant Deputy Minister, two secretaries and an Executive Assistant.

The individual , the Assistant Deputy Minister, his secretary and his Executive Assistant have been seconded by the Department of Mines,particularly the Minister responsible, who is Chairman of the Cabinet sub-Committee on the settlement of Indian land claims for Manitoba. The Deputy Minister will be doing two things , will have two particular positions and doing many hundreds of things. The two posit ions are that he will head up an internal departmental working group of civil servants throughout our government.

For example , there'll be representation from Lands , Renewable Resources , Northern Affairs , Mines , and possibly - yes, there is from the Attorney-General's office , and what he will be doing as Chairman of that group will be compiling the massive amount of documentation that we have going back some of it 20, 25, 30 years in relationship to a variety of types of Indian land claims settlements that are before us. That will be his one position. Coupled with that he will be Secretary to the Cabinet sub-Committee , and he has taken his secretary with him . He's taken his Executive Assistant with him.

Now I'll explain this . The Department of Mines had a vacancy that they have used to cover off the Deputy Minister 's Executive Assistant so we have still that vacancy in our department. His other secretary who was left with us will be working in another area which we haven 't defined yet and 4010

.. - Tuesday, June 20, 1978 we will be carrying the position and the salary of both the Assistant Deputy Minister and his secretary with in our budget. Now you can understand it's sort of confused and if you want me to elaborate on it or further specify I'll certainly try to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE : Mr. Speaker , in light of the co-operative mood of the Minister I would find it a lot more useful if the Minister could give us the organizational chart of a

section before we deal with the

section or as we're dealing with the

section as opposed to after we finish dealing with the

section . Of course we wou ld have preferred to have the whole organizational chart at one time so we could fit everything in perspect ive but the Minister was not will ing to do that. I wonder for example if we could get a chart from him right away if they have it there to show where the Assistant Deputy Minister fits into the diagram and then if they would be prepared to have the Lands and Surveys Division chart available to us. I wonder if the Minister could do that for us. MR.

MacMASTER: The Assistant Deputy Minister will be working with - as of two to three weeks ago he's really working with the Minister of Mines and is just assisting myself and our department in a walk-away sort of a situation and we will have the documentation that you 're referring to when we get down to the next

section in the Estimates of the chart for that particular division . We'll give that to you as a further sign of our attempt to co-operate which is what you have asked for. MR. McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman , I can only then assume from the Minister's response that this Assistant Deputy Minister just no longer fits within the organizational chart; he doesn 't really belong to the department any longer but he's just paid through this department . Is that correct ? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, that's corrett. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman , I would just like to get some clarification on the unconditional grants which the province pays to municipalities and part of which is paid as a growth tax or on an income tax basis , but is a provincial grant to municipal governments . I wonder if the Minister could explain when they had the figures available for the 1976 census and how come the funds have not yet been able to be made available to the communities? MR.

MacMASTER: I'll take as notice exactly when we had the 1976 census, but again it was somewhat in dispute and we think that we've cleared that up and our own census that we have taken has now been completed . In comparing all the facts we find that the outstanding amounts owing are the $23 ,000 and $138,000 that I mentioned previously, and they'll be going out as I said within a month and the following , the 1978 ones will be going out very close to a month following that. MR. McBRYDE: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I had a colleague distract me from the answer.

The supplementary cheque or the final amount under the unconditional grant - when can the community councils and the Indian bands expect to have that money in hand? MR. MacMASTER: The final payment left over from the 1977 initial payment, if we will , will be going out within 30 days. Well, I can't tell you whether it's 26, 27, 21, but very close . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I'd like some clarification.

The Honourable Min ister said - I understood him to say - that the Assistant Deputy Minister is working really for the Minister of Mines, and my quest ion is not related to who is the present Assistant Deputy Minister nor where he is working; I want to understand this Item 1. (c)(1). What sort of position will that be in the balance of this fiscal year? In other words where is the Deputy Minister's salary coming from? Will there be an Assistant Deputy Minister or how else are they going to expend the $77,400 .00? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: I already explained that , Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I heard the Honourable Minister say that the ADM is working 4011

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 for the Minister of Mines . I assume that he means that his present ADM is working for the Minister of Mines . My question is: Is the Deputy Minister 's compensation coming out of this item that we are now dealing with? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Chairman , as I said , I already answered that to the Member for Rupertsland - the precise question . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr .

Chairma n, I appreciate the fact that th is may have been answered before but some of us have other business to do as the Minister would well know and I believe that I can ask the ques tion as long as it' s not too extensive an answer. It would be just as quick, I think, to get the answe r as to have it blocked by saying I've already answered it. So I understand that the Deputy Minister 's salary is now the salary that comes under Item 1. (c)(1). What other staff is covered under Item 1. (c)(1). How many people? Has the Minister answered that as well? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, I have. MR.

CHERNIACK Yes, well if he's answered that , Mr. Chairman, then I assume that the Deputy Minister coming under that item would be the person who might be able to answer through the Minister the question of the capital expenditure that is being planned outside of what is in these Estimates before us. MR. MacMASTER: We'll get to the capital Estimates . If the member would look , it's No. 9, I believe . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I do appreciate the fact that under No. 9 there's an expenditure of some $4.4 million .

I asked the Minister what is planned to be expended and by whom over and above and beyond what is in these Estimates . MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , we're dealing with 1. (c)(1) and I'll answer questions on those and as we get to the other sections of the Estimates I'll be only too glad to do my best to answer the particular sections . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I do appreciate the offer of cooperation by the Minister . I do believe that Item 1. (c)(1) is the Deputy Minister's salary .

It doesn't say so but the Minister has now said that that is where the Deputy Minister 's salary is and therefore I have to ask the Minister whether the capital expenditures that are being planned outside of these Estimates will come under the responsibility of the Deputy Minister . MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , 1. (c)(1) - I've explained what the particular individual is going to be doing . I've explained where his salary is coming from. I explained what his staff is going to be doing and I think that's quite sufficient. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , I understood the Minister to say that his Deputy Minister will be paid under Item 1. (c)(1). -(In terjection) - I misunderstood him , he says, Mr. Chairman . Then could he indicate just to have me better understand his Estimates just where the Deputy Minister's salary is? MR. MacMASTER: That's been passed . If the member would look he would see that (

c) is Assistant Deputy Minister - see it? Assistant - As-s-i-s-t-a-n-t. That 's the Assistant Deputy Minister that we're talking about and I've explained three times . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, it 's good to know that the Minister knows how to spell. Of course it's made easier when he can read it off the sheet to tell us how well he can spell and I want to compliment him on at least some evidence of his education , but , Mr. Chairman, I have been waiting for the Deputy Minister 's salary and I am looking at the Estimates .

They 're his Estimates, and I do not see a reference to a Deputy Minister in this salary , and therefore - or anywhere on this page . He says it's already been passed but I don 't know where it has been passed and I don 't know why the Minister is finding it so difficult to respond to what I think is a rather simple question. I thought that the Deputy Minister - that he said the Deputy Minister 's salary was covered under ~ 1. (c)(1). Now he says it wasn 't. Well , I accept the fact that I may not have understood him clearly . So I asked him where it does fit in.

But now that he says it isn't, that's it's under the ADM and he says the ADM works mainly for Mines and just does the odd th ing for him , then I have to ask the Minister how he's planning to spend the $77,400 .00. Now if he doesn 't know , or if he wants 4012

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 to constantly refer to the fact that he may have answered the question earlier I can understand that. I can understand his prob lem but , Mr. Chairman , I, like other MLAs would like to be able to understand his Estimates , and if I can 't get his cooperation then it makes it rather difficult, doesn't it, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(1)-pass - the Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: No, Mr. Chairman , I would like to know whether the Minister claims that he has given the complete breakdow n of the $77,400 .00. If he has not , would he please do so. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr.

Chai rman. I feel I've given a complete breakdown of the salary and the people involved and where they 'll be working and how they 'll be paid. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , could the Honourable Minister please give me a breakdown of the $75 ,100 for last year comparable to this - the breakdown of what was estimated and also what was actually spent? MR. MacMASTER: The same four people were involved , the same four positions - a Deputy , an Execut ive Assistant , two secretar ies. The only addition this year really is your increments , your general increments over what was there last year ' the same positions. MR.

CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , you notice the Minis ter seems not to be clear on it. He said the Deputy . Now was it the Deputy or was it the Assistant Deputy? Which was it? He did say the Deputy, and then he claims that I didn 't understand clearly what he had said earlier . MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , I'm finding difficulty wondering what the presence of the individual member is. You know, if he wants to play semant ics with words I guess we can , but I think we have some more important business to do on behalf of the people of Manitoba. MR. CHERNIACK: 6Mr.

Chairman, the Minister should have realized long ago that had he answered in a straightforward way the rather simple questions I put we would have been past this item and we would have been beyond that, but if the Minister wishes to play around then that's his choice. He is the one who can answer questions. I can't answer them for him, but he is the one who could answer them if he wanted to, and why he is reluctant to do so is beyong my understanding, Mr. Chairman, but then I don't know this Minister very well, besides which it is not my role to understand him. My role is to try and understand his Estimates.

He has absolutely refused to give me information which I've requested on Item 1. (c)(1), stating that he has already done so. I can understand that the Minister may, having done so while I was not present, may well have decided that he is not going to repeat himself lest he open up the question again. I can understand that . It may well be that the Minister doesn't want to go into this any further or it may be that he wants to prevent me from learning further about his plans for operating his department but, Mr.

Chairman, if he thinks that that is a frrm of justifying his Estimates I must tell him that he's badly mistaken. He can if he likes put on an attitude of not caring. That is the impression I now get. I don't think he cares one bit whether I have the information or not and I assume that he doesn't care very much as to whether or not I can make a contribution to assessing the workload that he expects to carry in the coming year. That, of course, is his priv lege. But, Mr. Chairman, it does not redound to his credit to be taking an attitude such as he has already done .

I must tell him that some of his own colleagues have had the courtesy of giving information of a rather simple nature more than once to those people who were not able to hear it the first time. However, the Minister wants to take this attitude, if he wants to change it, if he wants to give me the information I'd be glad to have it. If he doesn't want to give me the information then it stands on record that the Minister is refusing and pleading his effort to finish the work of government. Well , Mr.

Chairman, he has a lot to learn about how one can proceed in a proper manner with one's Estimates so as to come to a conclusion. Now, Mr. Chairman, I don 't know whether we're dealing with an Assistant Deputy Minister, who is going to be continued in the role or not, because I don't know where the Deputy Minister's salary is coming from . That has not been stated yet to my knowledge. Then I must assume that he is operating eith er without an Assistant Deputy Minister for the future or without a Deputy Minister for the future , and yet he has a Deputy Minister sitting in front of him, I'm told. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the wages and salary which he says he's already broken down for us relat e in some way to the wages and salary of the $75,100.00. Now I asked him to give me a breakdown of that . He d dn't do that. I asked him to give me a breakdown of what was actually 4013

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 spent. He didn't do that. And I'm wondering whether it was an oversight on his part or a deliberate refusal to give that information. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I haven't refused deliberately to answer anything. I was trying to cut out the repetition. The Member for St.

Johns was sitting in his seat when I answered the question from the Member for Rupertsland, that there was an Assistant Deputy Minister, there was an Executive Assistant , there were two secretaries , and that their salary previously - the increase indicates a normal increase in salaries over the year, and that the Assistant Deputy and his secretary and his Executive Assistant will be seconded to the Department of Mines, specifically the Minister of Mines, and that the Minister of Mines has a vacant spot that he'll be filling with the Executive Assistant, and that we will be paying the salaries and holding the positions of the oteer two people, and the fourth person, the secretary - I think this is exactly what I said before and I have no reason to fear repeating it - the other fourth person will be assigned to other duties in time .

MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman , I want to thank the Minister and I want to point out to him how easy it was for him to save time by having answered me earlier than having to go through all this rigmarole in order to get to the same point we're at now. I point that out only to indicate to him that he will find it much better to go through his Estimates if he is prepared to give information and to, if necessary , give it twice if it's not too extensive . Mr.

Chairman, now, having listened I think carefully to what he said, I now have the impression that there is money being asked for in this resolution , which is going to be spent in the Department of Mines. There are apparently a couple of people at least whose salaries are going to be paid for by Northern Affairs , but who will be working for the Mines Minister . Will that then mean that they will be working in whatever premises are occupied by the Mines Minister; that they will not be occupying premises that come under the Northern Affairs Department? A secondment means a temporary assignment, for how long?

Why aren't the Estimates so worked that the proper department has the proper expenditure? Are there any other items in these Estimates where the Northern Affairs Minister is asking for moneys to be use by another department? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , it's a combined effort of departments. I am a member also of the sub-committee in the establishment of Indian claims , and I have agreed with the concurrence of the people involved to allow the chairman of that particular committee , to utilize the services of these particular people . MR. CHERNIACK: That, Mr.

Chairman , satisfies me. I now understand what is being planned and it's good to know that this is the way the plan is in operation . When will that committee be lining up its work? Is it a matter of months or years? MR. MacMASTER: It's rather difficult to answer the

part cular question. As I said, some of these land claims are outstanding for many many years ; there is such a large variety of circumstances surrounding a great number of them and we have to go back into history to establish the validity of a lot of them; it is going to take an extensive period of time .

I would think, and I can't say, but I would suspect that in next year's Estimates, that this particular group would appear under somebody else's heading , maybe the Minister of Mines, if he's still chairman of that committee, maybe the Premier of the province would want to take them under his particular budgetary items . I don 't know just exactly where that will fit in the forthcoming year . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland .to MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, in respect to this

section here, seeing that the Assistant Deputy Minister has been planned for and budgeted for by this Minister, and now the Assistant Deputy has been seconded to another department for other duties, does the Minister intend to replace this individual with somebody who will carry out the duties that this person was planned to carry out during the course of this fiscal year under scrutiny? MR. MacMASTER: That 's under consideration , Mr. Chairman .

I haven't made any specific moves and I can assure the members of this House that I haven't approached the Premier on any suggested " replacements at this particular time . The directors of the various divisions as we come to them that would have been reporting directly to that ADM will report straight through to the Deputy Minister on an interim basis until we establish just how workable that is and how the functions are, how we'll go about replacing them . 4014

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, just on the same point, what duties did the Minister have in mind for this particular individual for this position that is in his Estimates for the fiscal year 1978-79? What duties did he see this individual carrying out in the operation administration of his department? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , there were areas that would have been reporting directly to the ADM , as I say, now on an interim basis.

They are going to have to report straight through, and as we get to them, for convenience and understanding , we will put in the ADM's position, and we'll demonstrate how the director of that particular area will report straight through. MR. BOSTROM: If I heard the Minister correctly, it appears as though he has mae a plan here for his Estimates , a plan to have an Assistant Deputy Minister, who he has proposed to fund through the Estimates ' process for this year . Now before the Estimates are even con idered by the House, the individual attached to that position has been seconded.

Now the Minister is saying, well maybe we don't really need this position , so why did he put it in there in the first place? The other thing is, I understand from his comments in reply to the Member for St. Johns, it appears as though he is still leaving in here, in his department, funds for an executive assistant and a secretary . Now who will these people be reporting to if these positions are filled, if the incumbent is moved on to other duties in another department? MR. MacMASTER: I should clear up the inference that when the member left it hanging, that maybe there were some duties there .

There certainly was some very specific duties for the ADM and our department is going to have to live with the fact that we don't him. I might add that that will be without a great deal of difficulty. But I can 't go back in history with the members opposite, or anybody else in this House, and ask how they have handled such a situation before; I am simply saying right here, that we are prepared to work without the particular Deputy Minister for a period of time to see how it works and what adjustments we will have to make .

The three people, and there are three that are going, the ADM , his executive assistant, and his secretary, and they will all be working with him directly . And once again, the Department of Mines has a vacancy where they can cover off the executive assistant , and we will be carrying the salaries of the assistant deputy, and one of his secretaries. That position that is left with the executive assistant will be open; it is vacant at the moment, and the lady that is left behind as secretary will be reassigned other duties. MR. BOSTROM: Mr .

Chairman, on that same point, what does the Minister intend to do with this vacant executive assistant position? If the person that the executive assistant was reporting to is no longer there, no longer involved with the department, why does he need this position, and why is it included in these Estimates? Why is it not struck out of the Estimates? MR.

MacMASTER: There is consideration for that particular position being used in another area at the moment , and I would like to assure the Member for Rupertsland that these Estimates will not pass without me assuring him of where that position goes; or the ultimate, if the position is not reassigned in another particular area, I'll give consideration to removing the moneys that would have been in a position, before the conclusion of the Estimates. This has all happened, certainly not rather suddenly, but everybody is busy and we just haven't got around to specifically assigning that vacant position yet. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I'm still not entirely clear. I want to understand, when we have finished these Estimates, the total staff complement and how it works . There were four lositions here; assistant deputy minister; executive assistant and two secretary positions. First question then, were all of those filled, were there people occupying those positions?

And then, if the Minister could clarify, the ADM to be paid from here is definitely seconded to work on the Indian claims, as the Minister calls them , but the executive assistant, the person is being seconded but the position is staying . Is that correct? Is this position of executive assistant remaining with this department even though the incumbent is going to fill another vacant position? Then, I assume that both the one secretary - the persons in the position are both being seconded. Is that correct?

But the second secretary, neither the position nor the person are moving; they are staying right here, and the Minister has to figure out what to do with that person in position now. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, to several of the questions. First, all four positions are in fact filled today. The department , I suppose, as any Minister would want if some of your people are being seconded 4015

Tuesday, June 20, 1978 to another area, he would like the other area to have the money in the positions available within it. That was not the case. There was one vacancy within that department that the Honourable Minister of Mines found could accommoda te the executive assista nt, so I keep that position . I am responsible in these Estimates , for the salary and the positions of the ADM and the secretary .

I am responsible for the salary and the position and the person of the second secretary , and I have now a vacant position because of the Minister of Mines having a vacancy where he accommodated the executive assistant , so that person is moved over , and I have a vacant posit ion. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , we have here the figures that show the full salaries for four people , I assume , and basically what we have in government services is an increase of one. The Minister has transferred a person and he is keeping a position , so now he has one new position that he has available to him to fill. Is that correct?

MR. MacMASTER: We're getting ourselves caught up I think in this. How can I say it another way that might explain it? There were four positions that were filled; two of those positions are gone, and I retained two positions. One of those positions that I have retained is vacant, and one is filled . MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could outline the duties of these four persons, what they have been , and what role they filled within the department , so we could have some understanding of what kind of holes it would leave if three of these four people are transferred - what was their basic function , or put it another way, how did they fit in the old organizational chart , Mr. Chairman? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman,

Section 3. Fisheries and Wildlife , and

Section 5. Southern Field Services, would have both been reporting directly to the ADM . MR. McBRYDE: I didn 't catch the last part of the Minister 's answer. MR. MacMASTER:

Section 3 and

Section 5, Fisheries and Wildlife Division and the Southern Field Services Division , would have both been reporting directly to the ADM and his support staff would have assisted him in his duties in that particular area . MR. McBRYDE: So, Mr . Chairman, the assistant deputy minister, since that's a major part of the old Department of Resources, as I understand it, this was a major executive position that he is now going to get by without . I assume that his assistant's role was to assist him in those things and his secretary 's role was to provide the secretarial service for that.

Have the persons now at the head of those other two sections then been promoted , now that they are reporting directly to the Deputy Minister, I assume, although if I had the overall organization chart it would be helpful , now that they are reporting directly to th Deputy Minister, have they been promoted, in effect, because of the elimination of this one position? MR. MacMASTER: No, they haven't, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass - the Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. BOSTROM: Thank you , Mr . Chairman .

I find it somewhat strange , the whole affair, which we are witnessing in terms of the moving of this individual over to a pos ition within the department, or reporting to the Ministe r of Mines and Resources. It seems to be following the pattern of this government in terms of carrying out a type of vindictive removal of all those people who were in senior executive positions in either the Department of Resources or the former Department of Northern Affairs. Many of those individuals , particularly those who were within the Department of Northern Affairs ,

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-67a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 67a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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