LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 22 December, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, for the information of the members I'd like to table copies of two statements which I presented last week at the Federal-Provincial Conference of Finance Ministers on December 17th.

The first deals with the national economic situation and the second is a joint position which I presented on behalf of the four western provinces with respect to the next round of fiscal arrangements and negotiations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the 8th Annual Report of the Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on a point or order. MR.

HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): On a point of order, the Minister had tabled statements pertaining to his involvement at the Federal-Provincial Conference. Is the Minister now reading that statement to the House? MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. MERCIER, on behalf of the Honourable First Minister, introduced Bill No. 2,

an Act to Amend The Legislative Assembly Act. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor). MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: I'd like to ask the Attorney-General if it's the intention to table the bill immediately at this Session? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I hope to have some discussions with the Leader of the Opposition this afternoon, after which I'll be able to respond to that question. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Western Flyer Coach, I believe the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Development Corporation. Can the Minister confirm that arrangements are being processed to undertake a proposed sale of Western Flyer Coach? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, we have stated on many occasions that we are looking at ways and means of enhancing the operation of Western Flyer or Flyer Industries in Manitoba here.

We have undertaken to hire a consultant firm by the name of Woods Gordon to see if there are any people that would be interested in that particular company. I might add, Mr. Speaker, it's really a continuation of what the former government did. They also spent a fair amount of money in the last couple of years that they were in office with the same company, trying to find a buyer for the company too. So really we're continuing on in very much the same vein that the honourable members embarked on. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister advise whether or not any sales price has been determined in regard to the sale of the company? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, it's the government's intention to try and stabilize and maintain that operation in Winnipeg and to that end we have hired the consultant to explore the different avenues and different companies that might be interested in this particular business venture, with an eye of, as I mentioned before, keeping the jobs in Manitoba as well as keeping the operation here in Manitoba.

That is basically our goal and there has not been a firm price or any particular set guidelines established. It could come in the form of joint venture, it could come in other forms, but we are trying to explore all avenues to make sure that operation continues to be a viable operation. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, further to the Minister, can he advise whether or not Woods Gordon is involved in the evaluation as to a sale price for the firm? MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, Woods Gordon was retained to see if they could find a prospective buyer or see somebody who was interested in an arrangement with the Manitoba Government. As far as the selling price and that is concerned, we have not reached that point at this time to my knowledge and there isn't a firm price established for the particular company.

It's a matter of trying to search out, as I said before, someone that could bring certain expertise into this field, which is a high technology field in this changing day of urban transportation, but as far as I know there isn't an established price that they're trying to receive for the assets out there. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister confirm that top management of Western Flyer 187

Monday, 22 December, 1980 Coach have discussed with employees of Western Flyer Coach a potential sale of Western Coach and the potential for employees participating in the purchase of Western Flyer Coach. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, that could be but I have not seen such a proposal presented to me at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY {Fort Rouge): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Honourable Minister of Health.

I wonder if he can give us an up-to-date report on the status of the Deer Lodge Hospital and possible transfer to the provincial jurisdiction. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. {Bud) SHERMAN {Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, first may I just offer the hope that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge has availed herself the excellent medical services available to all Manitobans in attending to the disability that she appears to have suffered since we saw her last. I wish her a speedy recovery. The Deer Lodge negotiations are continuing, Mr.

Speaker, with the new Deputy Minister in Ottawa who was responsible for Veterans Affairs and with the new Minister responsible now for Veterans Affairs as well as Defence. I think the federal arrangement now may be a little bit fluid for a month or two but the federal arrangement now has placed Veterans Affairs alongside Defence in a single portfolio or joint portfolio for the time being. This is the result of the recent unfortunate death of the former Minister of Veterans Affairs, and our negotiations have been conducted with his senior officials in the intervening time.

We have received permission from Veterans Affairs and from the Legion to open a 32-bed personal care unit at Deer Lodge, utilizing beds which would normally be beds for Veterans but which will now be made available to us to meet the needs of the general public for long­ stay beds in the community. I am hopeful that we can reach some conclusion on the future of Deer Lodge during the coming year. It comes down again, Mr.

Speaker, as it has for the past four or five years to the price tag, the amount of money that the federal government is prepared to offer the province for the necessary physical upgrading and takeover of that facility. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister tor his good wishes. I hope he will come and cook my Christmas dinner tor me. Mr. Speaker, I wonder on another matter if the Minister can report to the House. He was reported last October as saying that there was a possibility that Winnipeg's RH Institute might obtain blood fractionation work tor Western Canada.

I wonder if that has progressed at all, and if there is anything the Minister can tell us about that, please. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the subject of blood fractionation and where it would be carried out was the lead item on the agenda at the Health Ministers' Conference in Toronto last week, which I attended on behalf of the province and the decision taken by the Ministers is that blood fractionation will be sited and located at three facilities in Canada.

One will be the Armand Frappier Institute in Quebec; one, provided they agree to operate on a non-profit basis, will be Cornat Laboratories in Toronto; and one will be the RH Institute at the University of Manitoba here in Winnipeg. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please, I wonder if I may interrupt for a minute to introduce to the Assembly a Mr. John Solomon, the Member for Regina Northwest in the Saskatchewan Legislature. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S.

EVANS {Brandon East): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Economic Development, and ask the Honourable Minister whether he can advise the House whether it is correct that Canvin Products Limited, Western Vinegar Division, expects to shut down about March 31st of next year and may not reopen. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON {Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, Canvin Products, the one that the member is speaking of, is owned by Campbell Soup. It is the old Western Vinegar plant on Higgins Avenue.

I think everybody in this House if they drove by it would find that plant is just in very dire straits; it's very old. It will be closing down at that time, but at the same time Campbells have informed us of the expansion they intend to put on the mushroom plant in Portage Ia Prairie, which will be far more jobs there than we would be losing in Winnipeg. There are only eight or nine people involved and they assure me that those people will be taken care of by their company. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise the House what the reason for the closure, folding-up if you like, of the vinegar production operation is - just exactly why is Campbell Soups or Canvin Products Limited going out of the business of processing vinegar in Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: I said to the Honourable Member and maybe he should drive over and look at the plant himself and see how old that plant is. It just does not produce efficiently in this day and age.

I might also add that Campbell Soup, although they will not be manufacturing the vinegar at that plant, they will be expanding their warehouse facilities also in Portage Ia Prairie to inventory and supply Western Canada from the plant. It's very very easy to see, Mr. Speaker, it any honourable members want to drive over and actually take a look at how old the Western Vinegar Plant is, it will become very obvious. 188

Monday, 22 December, 1980 MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we don't doubt the Minister's word or statement or observation that the plant is indeed old. That is not the point. The point is, Mr. Speaker, is the Minister advising us that no longer will Manitoba be a producer of vinegar? In other words, is this one commodity that is no longer profitable to be produced in the Province of Manitoba, whether it be by Campbell Soups or any other company? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, it is no longer profitable in that plant. I am not in the position to take off the costs for producing vinegar at the present time.

We could embark on a research or survey of that kind through our food products centre, 1 imagine, but I'm not aware of the costs of producing vinegar, Mr. Speaker, but I assure you that plant is probably close to being an environmental problem in the City of Winnipeg and it just has to go because it doesn't make money. I can tell you that I don't know the future plans of Campbell Soup as far as making vinegar is concerned, other than they intend to warehouse it much more extensively and supply western Canada from Portage Ia Prairie. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health and I'd like to ask him whether he's satisfied with every day occurrences of bed shortages in Manitoba, such as a few weeks ago where an elderly gentlemen with pneumonia was kept for a period of time in a drafty corridor. Is he satisfied with that kind of an arrangement in our hospitals? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Of course I'm not satisfied with that kind of an arrangement, if that is indeed an arrangement, Mr. Speaker. I can't testify to that incident.

There is no question that there has been a very heavy and in fact an unprecedented demand on acute beds and on emergency unit beds and holding beds in our hospitals this past fall. As a consequence of that, the Commission and hospital administrators in my office have been hard at work this fall attempting to produce a solution to what has been a situation reported across the country in all major centres.

Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton, have all reported the same experience this year and it may be a cyclical type of thing but nonetheless it has to be addressed and is being addressed. 1 recently disclosed the introduction of a plan that will put 817 beds into the hospital and personal care spectrum over the next 18 months through a process of recovery of beds, conversion of beds, and the opening of special personal care units in a number of hospitals. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister be prepared to investigate that case if I provided him with some details, and a second one where a constituent of mine, a terminal cancer patient, was kept in the corridors of Misericordia Hospital for several days while treatment was required, and that there were some 10 or 12 other people in the same corridor for that period of time? Would he be prepared to investigate a couple of specific instances? MR. SHERMAN: Well, most assuredly, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly I would be prepared to investigate those incidents if the honourable member wants to give me the information, but I can assure him and the House that the entire situation with respect to overload on our acute care beds and the occupancy of acute care beds by long-stay patients has been under intensive investigation. That's the reason for the program that I referred to a few moments ago which will put 817 beds back into the system for acute care and personal care and relieve these unprecedent~d pressures.

In addition to that there are a substantial number of new personal care beds in new personal care homes which will be opening in 1981 and if we can resolve the financial situation with the federal government and the Royal Canadian Legion, we would be able to utilize Deer Lodge Hospital as a major long-stay facility. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister then concede that there is a serious bed shortage in Manitoba for the past 3-1/2 years, that his government has done little to alleviate it, and that it is largely a consequence of the cutbacks in personal care construction? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't concede that because it isn't true. Manitoba has more hospital and personal care beds per capita than any other province, any other jurisdiction in Canada. Further to that, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member is aware of the personal care home construction program under way which is putting some two dozen new personal care homes, urban and rural, into place in the province in this next two­ year period. 1981 will see the completion of half of them; 1982 the other half. The problem has been that there has been a substantial demand on the part of long-stay patients for hospital beds and we have not opted for the option that Quebec pursued when they simply decreed that 20 percent of all their hospital beds would be henceforth regarded as beds for long-stay patients.

We have not done that, that really only solves the problem in bookkeeping terms. It doesn't solve the problem that is affecting every jurisdiction across this country right now, but it is not the fault that we don't have enough hospital beds. We have a very high ratio of hospital beds in comparison to other provinces. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Health and it flows out of the answers he gave to the the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge and the Honourable Member for Elmwood.

Can he indicate whether in fact it was a condition that the three blood fractionation plants be non-profit in order for them to get the federal­ provincial approval to proceed as flood fractionation plants? 189

Monday, 22 December, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: l"m not sure that I heard the honourable member's question precisely, Mr. Speaker, but on the asssumption that I did, and if I'm not answering it, he obviously will re-address it to me. The decision to site and locate the blood fractionation plants and facilities in those jurisdictions that I specified is based on the fact that the three principles at the root of the Canadian blood donor system be maintained, and that the three facilities be non-profit operations. MR. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As a supplementary then, in view of the fact that in Canada we are trying to affirm the principle of non­ profit care with respect to health care and medical care, can the Conservative Government of Manitoba indicate why it is still proceeding to bias the personal care construction program in favour of private profit­ making personal care homes, while slapping non­ profit religious and community groups in the face by refusing to fund them? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, that subject was dealt with very thoroughly during my Estimates last year, and the Honourable Member for Transcona is fully aware that there has been no repudiation whatsoever of non-profit operations in the personal care home field. What we have pursued is a policy of freedom of choice, a mixed system of respect for non-profit operation and respect for good proprietry operations.

What we have done is relicenced those proprietry operators who established a track record in which Manitobans have good faith and who co­ operated with us at a time when we had to close down and phase down some old time expired plants. We are proceeding with a capital construction program in the personal care field that concentrates as heavily and that promotes as heavily facilities of a non-proprietry nature as the proprietry nature. As far as the non-profit aspect in blood fractionation and blood collection is concerned, Mr.

Speaker, that has been a basic principle of the Canadian voluntary blood donor system since its inception and I would think that all members in this House would agree that it is a system that best preserves the principles in blood supply and distribution that this country stands for. We do not want to get into the kind of diffused desperate range of operations that exist in various other countries where they haven't insisted on a non-profit principle. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, we believe in the non-profit principle and tradition of all health care MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please.

Does the honourable member have a question? MR. PARASIUK: I have a question in response to the very lengthy answer that was just provided by the Minister of Health without any interruption by the Speaker at that time.

I would like to ask the Minister if he could indicate to us how much extra the Conservative desire to bias personal care funding in favour of private profit-making groups will cost the Province of Manitoba in view of the fact that interest rates are now in the order of 17, 18 percent, and the Minister last year in Estimates brought in a program indicating that the province would have to pay, at that time, an extra 1.5 million a year for the funding of private profit-making personal care homes as opposed to non-profit ones. Since interest rates have gone up substantially . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please.

I find the question extremely argumentative and I would have to rule it out of order on that basis. MR. PARASIUK: I would like to rephrase the question then, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister how much extra the Conservative Government's program of funding of private profit­ making personal care homes as opposed to non­ profit personal care homes will cost the people of Manitoba; how much extra? MR. SHERMAN: Not one dime, Mr. Speaker. The Member for Transcona has already answered his question.

I told him during Estimates last year that it will cost 1.3 million to finance those proprietry operations under that table of mortgage rates that was necessary because of today's interest rates. Those arrangements were made then, they were made at the time that interest rates were ranging from 12 to 14 percent precisely. Because they were made then and not now when interest rates are up around 17 and 18 percent, not only will they not cost any more, they will cost less than would have been the case now. Further to that, Mr.

Speaker, let there be no misunderstanding on that side of the House or anywhere that non-proprietry operations would be paying the same interest rates because the allocation under CMHC for our personal care beds and personal care units was used up and any non­ proprietry operation has to go into the market and borrow at the same rates, so the Honourable Member for Transcona is dragging up a red herring that was effectively, I think, knocked on the head some months ago. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering if you will allow me the same latitude in asking a question that you just allowed the Minister of Health in responding to my question. He provided a very arguOOntative answer. I would like to have the same opportunity. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. This period in our

schedule is not for debate, it's for asking questions and receiving answers. The Honourable Member for Transcona with another question. MR. PARASIUK: I would like to ask the Minister if he is now telling us that the program of the Conservative Government whereby they in fact provide special subsidies to private profit-making nursing homes, when they don't provide that type of subsidy to non-profit nursing homes, in fact doesn't cost the people of Manitoba one dime extra. Is that what he is saying? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member will check Hansard he will see very clearly that is not what I am saying. He didn't ask me that. 190

Monday, 22 December, 1980 He said how much more now that interest rates are up to - I said in this House before the howls of derisive laughter started, Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. I think we are getting into a debate rather than question period. The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI (St. George): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture and I would ask him in light of last week's statements concerning net farm incomes of Manitoba farmers, is he today now prepared to give a more accurate figure on farm incomes than he did on October 16th, and I believe October 31st, when he indicated that farm incomes were substantially up? Can he give us an accurate report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I'm not any more able today to give the members any more of a report than was given the last time.

It was a projection given from Stats Canada. When those figures are put together, they will be available to the members. A MEMBER: The accuracy, Mr. Speaker ... MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the question of accuracy will have to go to Stats Canada. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister of Agriculture be prepared to table that report from which he derived the figures that he gave to the press and to the farmers and to industry in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, - by the way made some projections and now have had to cut back on their operations as a result of the misinformation of the Minister of Agriculture?

MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the information is available to the member opposite at a request from Stats Canada as it is from me. I have indicated that I will be making a clarifying statement on the make-up of those figures and the way in which they were calculated. As far as the individuals who he is referring to having difficulty in the business community or in the farm community as a result of those projections, I think he's doing nothing more than throwing out a red herring.

It's truly the interest rates and the high costs of energy that are causing a lot of the difficulty in rural Manitoba to the farm community, not the projected figures that were put out by me that came from Stats Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister now prepared to indicate that he intends to bring out some clarification and Stats Can figures, did he indicate that? Or is he now indicating that it was his own office that did the calculation on those figures as is the case, because Mr.

Speaker, I spoke to Stats Can in Ottawa and they have no such projections that the Minister gave. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure who the individual that he talked to in Stats Canada was, but as far as we're concerned the figures as I had indicated had come from Stats Canada, I have no reason to think that there's any changes and when the information is available it will be made available to the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

My question is placed for the reason that the financial situation that the federal government finds itself in today, I'm wondering if the Minister could inform this House whether or not there's any possibility that the federal government is considering putting a tax on all wheat grown in Western Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, to answer directly whether or not, I don't know whether the federal government are going to propose a tax on the backs of the farmers or the wheat growers of this country, but I do know they are inhibiting the farmers in this country from achieving international grain prices on the wheat they sell domestically and also on the barley which is produced in Western Canada. In fact, I think on barley, Mr. Speaker, they're subsidizing to the tune of something of 40 per ton that they have to sell the barley to eastern Canada, where they could in turn sell it in an international market at 40 a ton.

As far as the tax, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of it. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to pose a second question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him, since the embargo that Mr. Carter, President of the United States, placed on wheat going to Russia, and the fact that an embargo was placed on wheat grown by farmers in this country, has this Minister had any communications with Ottawa whether or not the whole of Canada is going to be asked to share in this contribution that the farmers have carried on their own shoulders at the present time? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we have had communications with Ottawa at our Ministers' meeting this summer, our annual Agriculture Ministers' meeting. The question was asked of the federal government whether in fact they were going to ... MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. I find it very difficult to hear the answers to the question as long as members are continuing to talk. If members want to carry on a private conversation outside the Chamber, they are perfectly welcome to do so. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, what I was indicating was that we did ask the federal government what their position was and they had indicated at that particular time that they did not have the figures calculated on what losses may have been incurred by the farmers of Western Canada. They, to this point, have not made any announcements, but I do feel that it's important that if there was a loss incurred 191

Monday, 22 December, 1980 because of the embargo that all Canadians should carry that loss, not just the farmers of Western Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. VitaL MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister reporting for Manitoba Hydro and I'd like to ask the Minister whether he has received the report of the Teshmont Transmission Study. which I believe was due in September, and if so, would he release it to the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, there was a question of this nature earlier in the Session and I think the First Minister, in reply to it, indicated that all the reports which were initiated by the Joint Committee of the three prairie provinces would be dealt with by the First Ministers of the provinces at some point in time and that presumably following that there will be the release of whatever reports they feel are completed with at that time.

If the Teshmont Study he refers to is in that group, I would think that the earliest time that it may be available would be next spring or some time after that, after the First Ministers have received and dealt with it MR. WALDING: As a matter of clarification, Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister whether he had received the copy, not whether some study group had. Can the Minister also advise whether he has received the Foster Economic Feasibility Study on the western connection, too? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, the member's second part of his first question was whether it was available for the House, I attempted to answer that. Yes, certainly, the two reports referred to have been received. MR. WALDING: Another supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the Minister whether the UNIES company has carried out reports into this same matter? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, whether or not they have prepared a report, I can't answer. I would certainly hope that the principal person from that person, namely Mr.

Gordon Spafford, would be involved in these proceedings since he was the person that had a major role to play in bringing this thing into fruition in the first place. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital with a further question. MR. WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question had to do with whether Mr. Spafford or UNIES company had been retained to do a review of the Teshmont Study and the Economic Feasibility Study in order to make it more attractive? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, it's not our rule to retain people to make certain reports look more attractive. We retain people because of their brains, Mr.

Speaker, and what they can bring to the table in terms of their knowledge in the field of economics. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Northern Affairs. Last Session the Minister justified his decision to postpone the funding to the Manitoba Metis Federation on the grounds that he was asking a special group of his appointees to review his concerns regarding that funding. At that time the Minister gave assurances that the report would be ready in September.

My question to the Minister is, as it's now late December, can the Minister enlighten the House as to the present status of that committee's work which he assured us would be ready two or three months ago? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Advisory Committee were asked to present a report back to me by the end of September. They requested an extension and I did receive a report around the first of November.

However, at that time it was expected that there would be a subsequent report forwarded to me as one of the committee members had been sick, had been in hospital, and I haven't as yet received that report but I am proceeding to make some recommendations to government on the basis of the information that I have and I would hope to have that recommendation brought forward in the very near future. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As a considerable amount of funding hinges on the Minister's analysis of that report, I would hope that the Minister could be more specific as to when he will be making those recommendations to Cabinet and in fact when we can expect a decision as to whether or not the government is going to deny that funding to the Manitoba Metis Federation or not? MR. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite seems to be putting a lot of emphasis on the MMF and I might point out that that particular group refused to participate in this Advisory Committee in spite of the fact that this is one of the stipulations in their constitution that they look into all aspects of the welfare of Metis people, and it makes my job much more difficult because they hadn't participated in this advisory role, but I can assure the members opposite that I'll be bringing in the report very soon. MR.

COWAN: I would ask the Minister to review some of his remarks in Hansards of last Session when he said that there were certain individuals from the Manitoba Metis Federation that had been appointed to that committee and to, in light of that, bring back further information once he has had that opportunity to review the situation. 1 would ask the Minister now though if he is prepared to give a commitment to table that report which is an extremely important report for all the Metis people in this province; to table that report before this Legislature so that we may have an opportunity to peruse it and to apply our own analysis to it. 192

Monday, 22 December, 1980 MR. GOURLAY: To answer the first question regarding the participation of the MMF, a question was directed to me last Session, whether or not that I had received the letter from a representative from the MMF who was asked to participate on the committee. I have checked the files many times. I did not receive a letter from Mr. Mcivor who was asked to participate. He did not respond to the effect that he was not participating. As a matter of fact, he assured us up until the time the committee was meeting that he would be a participant.

I never received a letter that he would not participate. With respect to tabling the report that I have received from the committee, I would consider that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Health. I wonder if the doom and gloom reports of the members opposite are still true, that doctors are still continuing to leave this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: There may be a few leaving, Mr. Speaker, but there are obviously more coming in.

The current figures from the College of Physicians and Surgeons show a total of 1,698 physicians in Manitoba which is the highest figure in Manitoba's history. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister responsible for the . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. I find it very difficult to listen to the question of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Leader of the Oppostion. MR. PAWLEY: My question is to the Minister responsible for the Rent Stabilization Act.

Can the Minister advise whether or not he has completed a report to the questions which were accepted by the First Minister as notice this past Friday pertaining to rent increases in the City of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, the information is simply that my honourable friend has no basis whatsoever for the conclusions that he drew from the reading of the report. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for question period having expired, we'll proceed with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR.

SPEAKER: On the adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa and the amendment proposed by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM (Rupertsland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On opening I would like to offer my congratulations to you, Sir, on your assumption again of the office of the role of Speaker, and I hope that you may be able to count on my support and co-operation in the days to come in this Session. I would also like to offer my congratulations to the Mover and Seconder of the Speech from the Throne.

I think they have demonstrated they have a considerable amount of courage and imagination to be able to stand up and support such a document because, Mr. Speaker, there are many criticisms that we can make of this particular document. I want to go into some of the specifics of that document and, Mr. Speaker, to outline some alternatives to this kind of a position that could be expected from a New Democratic Party Government in this province. Mr. Speaker, we have seen the results of approximately three years of Progressive Conservative ideology at work in this province. They came into office, Mr.

Speaker, on a host of promises; most, if not all, that have been broken since they have assumed office. They came into government, Mr. Speaker, on the ideology expressed in their election material and in announcements by the First Minister and various Ministers of this government that only private enterprise can be the engine of growth in this province and that the reduction of taxes to corporations will result in the investment in this province somehow magically appearing.

They have also made the statement, and I think the First Minister is one of the champions of this statement, that to reduce resource taxation will result in automatic increase in exploration and development in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, they have made it very clear that they as a government believe that the government has no role to play in the development of the economy. Mr.

Speaker, there have been many public statements made which would suggest that they plan to continue to follow this ideology in the operation of this government in its dying days and in fact to carry this ideology to the public in the next election. Mr. Speaker, I was a guest at the recent meeting of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities where the First Minister made the statement that no government can find oil. Mr.

Speaker, I happened to be sitting at the same table with people from Virden, Manitoba, who had been telling me about the oil strike by Sask Oil, the Saskatchewan government corporation which found oil in the Province of Manitoba, and Mr. Speaker, that appears to be some embarrassment to this government because I believe they would rather have not found out that the Saskatchewan Government through its public corporation had found oil in the Province of Manitoba.

The other statement which the Progressive Conservative Government seems to be fond of making is that mining exploration is expanding in the Province of Manitoba because of Progressive Conservative policies. Mr. Speaker, I have information which I believe will refute both of these statements by the Progressive Conservative 193

Monday, 22 December, 1980 Government, and also refute completely the philosophy and ideology that they are working by. I would like to go into some specific things within the Speech from the Throne, Mr. Speaker, and then refer to some statistics which I believe will show that the way in which the Progessive Conservative Government in Manitoba is working will certainly not work well for the economy of this province. If we look at the specific Speech from the Throne, Mr. Speaker, we see that they have the gall to say that the last three years have been steady progress towards economic recovery for Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker. it's obvious from anybody's standpoint and particularly from the standpoint of any businessman in Manitoba, that these years have been steady decline. We've seen an increase in unemployment, we've seen an increase in welfare rates, and that's both at the city level and certainly in northern areas Mr. Speaker. You talk to any business person in any of the northern communities and they'll tell you that they've never seen welfare rates and welfare as much as they've seen it in the last two or three years. Also, Mr.

Speaker, people are leaving the province and this is something that's of concern to many people in Manitoba, not the least of which is the small business community that depends on the volume of business from the people that are in Manitoba. and when people are leaving Manitoba to the extent that they have been leaving Manitoba over the last three years, it has become a disastrous situation for many small business people.

We see the business failures that have resulted from the decline in the economy and the decline in the population base in Manitoba, particularly in the small communities, and we also see it within the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, we see they make a statement in the Speech that activity in our basic resource industries, including mining and oil exploration, has reached the highest levels in our history. Mr. Speaker, the level of exploration in resources is a function of resource pricing, more than it is a function of the particular ideology of the government. Mr.

Speaker, as an example of that I can refer you to the Saskatchewan economy which I will go into in detail in a few moments. where Saskatchewan has had the highest activity than any province in Canada and they've had at the same time, higher returns to the people of their province from the resource taxation and the equity participation and development which they require of companies that are operating within their province.

They are active participants in the development of their resources and they require resource companies that are operating within their province to provide a fair return to the people of that province and, Mr. Speaker, they have a higher rate of exploration than the Province of Manitoba in spite of the fact that the Conservative government here would try to claim that mining exploration is taking place here because they've reduced the mining royalties. Mr. Speaker, they make the statement that the overall economic performance of Manitoba has been hindered by local. national and continental problems.

They fail to mention. Mr. Speaker. that it is their form of government, their cutbacks, their lack of initiative. their lack of planning, their lack of leadership, that has caused a great deal of the decline in our economy in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, they claim that our economy depends so heavily on the small and medium-sized enterprises, and that appears to be on Page 2, the only place in this whole document that they make any reference to small and medium-sized companies. The other highlights, as they call them, of their Throne Speech, refer to the mega projects. Mr.

Speaker, if they're interested in small and medium-sized enterprises, why is the emphasis only on the mega companies and the mega developments, which the Premier is fond of talking. Is it because the Progressive Conservative Party is really only interested in the larger corporations, that they're really not interested in small business in this province? Mr. Speaker, if we look further into this document and we see that the other reference which would be of concern to small business, and that is the reference to interest rates, they say, Mr. Speaker, that they're monitoring the interest rates. Mr.

Speaker, this is small comfort for the small businesses that are in a state of almost bankruptcy, or bankruptcy because of the interest rates that they are facing at the present time. We look at the Province of Saskatchewan as an example where we have a New Democratic Party Government. They have an interest rate abatement program which they provide for the small business people in their province. (Interjection)- An interest rate abatement program which provides relief to small and medium-sized businesses on the interest which they must pay on inventories and their capital investment in their business. Mr.

Speaker, it's interesting to compare the ideology and the policy that's operating in Manitoba with that which is operating in Saskatchewan, and I would like to put on the record, Mr. Speaker, the fact that we see in the Province of Saskatchewan, right at the present time, a New Democratic Party government which is again providing for the people of that province, and indeed for the people of all of Canada, an example that the rest of the country will eventually pick up and follow. Saskatchewan, Mr.

Speaker, was the birthplace of most, if not all of the progressive social legislation that we have in effect in Canada today. It was the birthplace of hospitalization, the birthplace of Medicare, the birthplace of the public automobile insurance program, to name a few and, Mr. Speaker, many other programs that in the present day have been picked up by other governments, in fact to the point, Mr.

Speaker, where other governments in spite of their ideological bent to the contrary, have had to keep these programs and keep them operating because they've become so well known and so well accepted by the people that a government, even a Progressive Conservative Government like we have in Manitoba, a reactionary government, is not able to throw out those programs. They must keep premium­ free medicare, they must keep premium-free hospitalization, they must keep the public auto insurance program, even though everything in their ideology would want them to kick those things out, to throw them out. Mr.

Speaker, I make a prediction that the Province of Saskatchewan will also be the birthplace of the most progressive economic legislation and the most 194

Monday, 22 December, 1980 progressive economic policies in Canada and that they will become so commonplace, they will become so popular, that every government in Canada will have to pick up on them, every government in Canada. Mr. Speaker, just to point to what is happening there, I think it's interesting to look at what is happening in Saskatchewan, just to compare that province under New Democratic Party Government with this province under a reactionary, backward­ looking, Progessive Conservative Government. For example, Mr.

Speaker, in the light of the Saskatchewan Government's policies which require companies to allow the Saskatchewan Government to have at least a 50 percent equity in all developments of a mining nature in that province when they come into the province, in light of that regulation, that province had mining investment expanding by 16 percent after inflation in 1979 and they had well over one-half of all the hard rock drilling activity in Canada occurring in Saskatchewan in that year. Mr. Speaker, does that strike you as being a policy which chases mining companies out of the province?

And yet we have that kind of talk coming from the Progressive Conservative Government in this province. They claim that if you have reasonable resource taxation on your mining companies, if you require them to allow the government to come in up to 50 percent equity participation, as we had when we were government here, if you require that, the mining companies won't come. Mr. Speaker, what's happening right across the border, right across the boundary into Saskatchewan? They have mining companies that are more active there than they are in the Province of Manitoba. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, one of the incentives that mining companies have to go into Saskatchewan is that there is a government there that is friendly to them and that wants to work with them in developing mines, that's willing not only to say come on in and look for mines but the government through its public resource c~rporations say to the companies,"Come in, we'll work with you; we'll put up investment dollars; we'll explore; we'll find mines; and we'll develop mines." Mr. Speaker, the mining companies are happy to go in there and work under those kind of rules.

If we look at the economy generally in Saskatchewan, it certainly isn't hurting them to have a New Democratic Party Government, on the contrary, Mr. Speaker. Their service industries were a major source of new job creation and new investment. Retail sales, unlike Manitoba, are going up in Saskatchewan. In Manitoba what's happening to retail sales? They're going down. Construction activity is going up in Saskatchewan. Housing starts increased by 2,200 units in 1979. What's happening here? No housing starts. Mr.

Speaker, the one thing which must really stick in the craw of people like the Honourable Minister of Economic Development is that Saskatchewan has a growing population. Here we have a New Democratic Party Government operating with rules, planning and leadership which provide for resource development. They have a growing population because they are creating jobs for the people here. Here we have a Progressive Conservative Government that is providing no planning, no leadership, and what's happening to our population?

People are having to leave this province to go to places like Saskatchewan and other places to find work. Unlike the attitude of this government and the policy of this government, where they sit back and wait for things to happen in the province, the Saskatchewan Government under the NDP are planning themselves, as a government, planning for the expansion of mining, energy exploration, research, and conservation to secure a good future for the people of their province. Mr.

Speaker, it's useful to note that the Saskatchewan unemployment rate is among the lowest in Canada at the same time as their population is going up. The unemployment rate here is underestimated when you consider the fact that people are leaving the province in droves, Mr. Speaker. If those people were here looking for work, the unemployment rates here would be more embarrassing to this government than they are now. One of the things, Mr.

Speaker, that I think we should look at is that under a New Democratic Party Government in Saskatchewan, resource revenues in that province are part of the engine of economic growth and of economic development. Mr. Speaker, for example, since the NDP were re-elected in that province in 1971, they increased their annual provincial resource revenues twenty-fold. They didn't go with their tail between their legs and let the companies come in rape their resources and take all the wealth out of their province without any adequate return for the people of their province. They increased their resource revenues. Mr.

Speaker, if we look at the way in which they have done that; they have used Saskatchewan Crown-owned corporation, Crown-owned enterprises, to develop the resources and direct a development from head offices that are within the Province of Saskatchewan, not in Ontario, not in Toronto or New York or Zurich, or wherever the companies are located that come into the province. They are directing the development and the exploration from the head offices of their companies that are publicly owned, owned by the people in Saskatchewan. Mr.

Speaker, I want to just give a concrete example here of what it means to be a government that has the courage to do that and what kind of results the people of a province can realize from that kind of investment. If we look at their budgetary cash inflows in the Province of Saskatchewan; because of the way in which they have established their resource participation and their resource taxation they are now achieving 19.2 percent of their annual revenues which come from resource development revenues. That's current dollars that they spend. Almost 20 percent comes from· income from resources.

If you compare that to Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, at the present time the resource revenues are negligible in our Budget. Mr. Speaker, they will continue to be negligible as long as this government is in power, as long as the Progressive Conservative Government is in power, because they believe the only way to get mining companies to come into your province is to give away the resources. All the PCs want to have from mining companies is jobs, all they want is jobs for people. Mr. Speaker, if you look at the budgetary revenues that are coming into the Province of Saskatchewan 195

Monday, 22 December, 1980 from all of their resources, the total estimated budgetary revenues are 645 million, 645 million. And of that, Mr. Speaker, they take 387 million, which goes into current revenue, and they use much of the remainder more than 150 million annually to invest back into resource development in that province, so that more exploration and more development is taking place in that province. Mr. Speaker, I call that leadership of the economy, leadership provided by the government. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to give you some specific examples of what is happening there, because I think that my honourable friends across the way are uneducated in this particular field and they refuse to see the wisdom of the government being involved in the economy in this way and as long as they refuse to believe that, Mr. Speaker, then the Province of Manitoba is going to be poor as long as they are in government. Mr.

Speaker, I predict that some day even the Progressive Conservative Government are going to have to accept policies, and are going to have to adopt policies very similar to those which the New Democratic Party Government in Saskatchewan are following at the present time, because, Mr. Speaker, they are going to be policies that are going to be so popular with people. Last election, Mr. Speaker, the Progressive Conservative Party in Saskatchewan were saying pretty well the same thing as the Progressive Conservative Party were saying here.

They were saying the only way to really keep resource development rolling in this province is to get the government out of it; get the government out; give the whole exploration and the mining development back to the private sector so we can really get things going here. The New Democratic Party Government went to the people of Saskatchewan and fought the election on that issue and they said, look, there are resource revenues from resources that belong to all the people of Saskatchewan and these revenues are ours.

We are entitled to them and we should be able to use these resource revenues for all the things that we need to have in this province like hospitals and schools and roads and social services and all the things that government needs to spend money on. Mr. Speaker, they even went to the rich farmers and I think some of the rich farmers sitting on the back row should listen.

They even went to the rich farmers and they said, look, you fellows are paying a lot of taxes, here's a way for your taxes to be reduced through the government being able to realize a better return from the resources that are available to us, by you participating with us; by participating with all the people of Saskatchewan in the development of those resources. Mr. Speaker, the New Democratic Party won seats they had never won before in Saskatchewan. They won seats in the rich farming areas of Saskatchewan, and these are farmers that were thinking. They were listening and, Mr.

Speaker, they realized a good thing when they saw it. And here it is, the birthplace of economic democracy. We have seen the birthplace of social democracy in Saskatchewan, well now we are seeing the birth of economic democracy. Mr. Speaker, you are going to see that economic democracy grow and blossom in that province and you are going to see it become so enviable to people living in other provinces that you are going to see every government, every province, and eventually the federal government have to adopt policies like that.

It is going to be absolutely impossible after a period of time for governments to continue along the line, the old tired line, that the Progressive Conservatives are following in this province, where they are saying the only way you can get resource companies to come in here is to give them everything. Mr. Speaker, I just want to look specifically at a few of these companies in Saskatchewan just to give my honourable friends a little bit of an education on what is happening in the resource industries.

You have the potash industry, The Potash Corporation of Saskatachewan, recently announced in 1979, a ten­ year expansion plan to increase its production. It's estimated the program will cost a total of about 2.5 billion over the ten-year period. Who's doing that? Is it some company that they had to lure in on bended knee and beg them to come in and develop the potash industry in Saskatchewan? No, the government of Saskatchewan is embarking on a 2.5 billion expansion program. That's the people of Saskatchewan doing that.

Here we have the Manitoba government talking about mega projects and they are clothed in secrecy and everything about their deals are behind the scenes, behind the doors, under the table, as somebody has mentioned today. Mr. Speaker, we don't know what's happening with these things. They are just sort of held up for public viewing and the curtain is pulled back and then pulled quickly back again before people can really get a good look at what's happening. Mr. Speaker, that's not the way to have development. This is the way to have development.

When the Saskatchewan government is going to develop potash, they come right out and announce it and they make it public and they publish the reports in a book which is presented to the Saskatchewan Legislature and everybody has the opportunity to be critical and at least knowledgeable about what is happening. That's what we call open government, right. The Saskatchewan Mining Development Corporation is another public corporation which capitalizes investments and costs related to exploration activities pending the operation of producing mines. In other words, Mr.

Speaker, they are not using the dollars of the tax base to explore and develop mines, they do it like any other private company, they capitalize that investment. They use investment dollars, borrowed dollars. They capitalize that over the period of years that they are involved in the exploration and development. Capital investments and expenditures were 120 million in 1979. That's the government of Saskatchewan providing leadership. Saskatchewan Oil and Gas Corporation, and here's a slap in the face for those Progressive Conservatives, including the First Minister, who claims that governments can't find oil. Mr.

Speaker, Sask-Oil finds oil, it finds lots of oil and it finds oil in Manitoba and it will find more oil in Manitoba, and it will continue to be an embarrassment to this government as long as they pursue these outdated, outmoded, and . . . A MEMBER: You should be embarrassed, you should be blushing. 196

Monday, 22 December, 1980 MR. URUSKI: You guys should be embarrassed, to wind down an exploration corporation. What an embarrassment to you guys. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, Sask-Oil had estimated oil reserves at 31 million barrels on December 31st, 1979, and they are still drilling for wells and they are still finding oil and, Mr. Speaker, it's an embarrassment for the Conservatives and I think it's a bit of an embarrassment for all Manitobans to have to live under a government that is so backward that we have to have another provincial government come into our province to do our oil exploration for us.

It's an embarrassment. Mr. Speaker, I realize I don't have a lot of time left but I would like to go through some more individual examples here to show you what can be done with a government that has the courage of its convictions and really wants to take leadership in the resource field. The principle goals for example of the Saskatachewan Potash Corporation are to secure optimum return on investment to the people of Saskatchewan and to be a reliable supplier of potash to its customers. Mr.

Speaker, at the present time the corporation controls 40 percent of the province's productive capacity of potash and through its operating companies it's the largest producer of potash in North America and the largest explorer of potash in the world. Mr. Speaker, that is something to be proud of. The people of Saskatchewan are proud of that and they will continue to vote for a government that has the guts to do that kind of thing - you're damn right. Mr. Speaker, if we take a look at Saskatchewan Mining Development Corporation, here's another interesting case.

The Saskatchewan Mining Development Corporation has eight projects which it operates. It has 100 percent interest in those but, Mr. Speaker, it has numerous joint venture projects. It would be illuminating I think for some of the honourable members opposite to read this book and look through this book. Who are partners with Saskatachewan in developing mining ventures in Saskatchewan; the Wyoming Mineral Corporation, 50 percent partner; Esso Minerals Canada; Hudson's Bay Exploration and Development Company; Hudson's Bay Oil and Gas Company; Dennison Mines; hardly people that need to be lured in on bended knee.

Here are people that are coming in under the regulation that the Saskatchewan Government has, that a company coming in must offer the Government of Saskatchewan at least 50 percent if the Saskatchewan Government desires it. In not all cases does Saskatchewan exercise that right, but the company knows before it comes in that those are the rules it must play by. They are still coming and they're coming faster than they are in Manitoba.

Chevron Standard Limited, PNC Exploration Canada Limited, and if you look at Saskatchewan mineral policy which I just mentioned, which was brought in in 1975 and I'll read it out so it's very clear to the people here and it's in any way not understood, under the terms of the Saskatchewan Mineral Disposition Regulations, "Companies acquiring mineral lands after March 1st, 1975, must offer to the Crown up to 50 percent joint venture participation in any exploration projects when expenditures in a single year are first expected to reach 10,000.00." So it's very clear that's the policy, everybody comes in under those rules and, Mr.

Speaker, it's not scaring anybody away. During 1979 the Corporation received a total of 107 new proposals which were reviewed and acted upon; 107 new proposals. How many proposals do we have in Manitoba? We have one potash and one other mine up in northern Manitoba. That's all. And Saskatchewan had 107; 107. The Honourable Minister of Economic Development says that's stupid. Well I think that best describes the policies the Conservative Government are following. Mr.

Speaker, the joint venture projects that are operated by partners in Saskatchewan, where there are joint venture projects which are operated in Saskatchewan at the present time, there are 30 projects that are operated on a voluntary basis, where these are companies that came in that didn't have to operate, didn't have to offer the government joint participation, they volunteered, they said we'd like you as a government to be a partner in these projects. There's 30 of those, Mr.

Speaker, and there's 168 that came in under regulation, exploration and development companies that came in and started up companies, started up joint venture projects. And I mentioned when I started, Mr. Speaker, in case there was anybody who didn't hear it, about 60 percent of the hard rock drilling activity in Canada took place in Saskatchewan in 1979. I note that I have five minutes left, Mr. Speaker, so I'll have to hurry to get in a few more comments in this area. Mr.

Speaker, the Saskatchewan government has, through their Saskatchewan Mining and Development Corporation, not only the means to do exploration but also the means to do complete development right through to operations and marketing. In other words, Mr. Speaker, if they see a good opportunity, they will follow through as the representatives of the people of Saskatchewan to complete an operation right to the point of marketing it and they're doing that now in the area of potash and, Mr. Speaker, it's something I'm very proud of and I think that everybody should be proud of it and when it comes time, Mr.

Speaker, it will become something that all Canadians will demand their governments get involved in. I just wanta to outline a few more things, Mr. Speaker. It's noted in their program details that many of the companies that come into Saskatchewan voluntarily request Saskatchewan Mining Development Corporation participation. Mr. Speaker, to follow up on what I was saying earlier on Sask Oil, their annual report .points out that in the last few years from 1975 to 1979, they've been increasing their drilling activity every year. The first year they drilled approximately 15 wells, in 1979 they drilled 103 wells. Mr.

Speaker, their production in 1979 was four million barrels of oil, and that's the government oil company, Sask Oil. And you have a first Minister that runs around Manitoba saying that governments can't find oil. Mr. Speaker, that gives you some idea of the integrity of that individual. Mr. Speaker, I think it's something to note that the provincial government in Saskatchewan recognizes that the success of any company and in particular a 197

Monday, 22 December, 1980 public company, can be attributed to the calibre of the staff, and who's to say, and who can say that the calibre of staff of a public corporation is any less than the calibre of staff of a private corporation. Why should they be? Why can't the people of Saskatchewan, through their own Crown corporation, recruit young intelligent people from Saskatchewan to become the workers in a public corporation that are finding mines, that are finding oil and developing oil, developing mining industries?

Why can't the people of Saskatchewan or the people of Manitoba do that ti1rough a public corporation? Mr. Speaker, we don't have to go on bended knee to other companies to come in and provide the kind of development that we need to get our province going, to get jobs in the province, to get our industry and resources developing so that we have the kind of economic base that we need to keep people here and not have them leave the province. I think Mr.

Speaker, I'm not going to be able to go into any more of the examples because my time is running out and I'd like to wrap up by saying - how much time do I have left? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): One minute and ten seconds. MR. BOSTROM: Okay, Mr. Speaker, I think I have successfully refuted the public statements that the government has been making with respect to resource development and government involvement in resource development.

I think that the people in Manitoba need a government that has integrity, a government that will be honest and open with them, it needs a government that has compassion, that will listen and care about the people of Manitoba and their problems, particularly the need for jobs in this province, and a government that has the courage to plan and to take action on plans. Now this government has failed on all three of those points. They do not have the integrity to come forward and bring out their plans to the people of Manitoba.

They have shown that they don't have the compassion to take the time to listen to the people of Manitoba and they've definitely shown that they don't have the courage to do the planning and to take the action that is necessary to get this province going. I have no confidence in them and I think the only way that this province is going to get moving is for them to be defeated and the New Democratic Party to take their place. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Corrections. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Speaker, and you, Mr.

Deputy, for accepting your responsibilities again to try and maintain a quorum of some respectability in this Legislature. I know at times that I may push you to the limit, Mr. Speaker, but I think usually it's in good jest in hoping that we can add to the particular situation that occurs at that time. I, Mr.

Speaker, will not attempt to make comments on the honourable member who has just spoken on the Saskatchewan Throne Speech because we are dealing with the Manitoba Throne Speech and fail to see again, which 1 have not experienced as yet in this particular Throne Speech, any positive statements from the members of the opposite side, Mr. Speaker. I have not yet heard one positive comment with regard to Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, Canada and North America are going through challenging years to come, for the next few years.

And as Canadians we are maybe facing bigger challenges in that we not only have to deal with the question of inflation, the question of high interest rates, the restlessness and the uneasiness of our business communities, but we also have to deal with the question of our country as a whole staying together. And I can say, Mr.

Speaker, as a former businessman, once I was in the Cabinet a year ago I gave up my rights in the business community and my holdings, that I understand the feeling in the business community at the present time, particularly with the small businessman because that's exactly what I was in the community. And I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that the negative comments, the innuendoes that are being put forward by the opposite side with regard to what Manitoba is like at the present time does not assist the business community whatever. And it's unfortunate, Mr.

Speaker, that we do have such a negative Opposition at this time because we have to pull together. We have to recognize that there are particular situations in Canada and in Manitoba now that do not rest on the shoulders of the government of the day and their responsibilities. They would like to see that believed by the public, Mr. Speaker, but the public out there recognizes that as not the case. Mr.

Speaker, in my fourteen years in politics, of which seven was in city council and seven here in the Legislature, or were, this is the most negative Opposition, negative group of people that I've ever experienced in my political experience. Mr. Speaker, they have such a negative doom and gloom syndrome that they are believing it themselves now. They completely believe that there's nothing good in Manitoba, completely. And I think it's led off by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition with his opening comments with regard to the Throne Speech, which I will comment on in a few minutes. But, Mr.

Speaker, one who's been in business, recognizes that there are good times and there are bad times. There's a cycle in the economic world that we all recognize, that there are good times and bad times. And it's amazing Mr. Speaker, that those businesses that survive the bad times are those that tighten their belt a little bit, recognize the situation, work a little harder, plan for the future, and then there are those that fail, Mr. Speaker, and I liken the Opposition Party as those that would fail. The businesses that do fail are sometimes those that say, they look around, they can't take the competition.

They can't accept the high interest rates, or they can't accept tightening their belt. So what do they do, Mr. Speaker, quite often they'll start to flail out excuses or flail out at their competitors saying that they're no good, or this is no good, and so on. And Mr. Speaker, that's exactly what we're receiving from that opposite side at this present time. And it can be understandable, Mr. Speaker, if you look at the Opposition, one of their leading members left the party, and why did he leave the party, Mr. Speaker? My understanding was it's 198

Monday, 22 December, 1980 because the union bosses were starting to run the party. That is why the Honourable Member for Inkster left. Does that mean now that the union bosses are running the Leader of the Opposition with the negative statements that he is making and the innuendoes that he leaves that distort the facts, Mr. Speaker? Because if we look at what the Honourable Leader of the Opposition made comments on with regard to the Throne Speech that one of the innuendoes that he had to use to indicate how bad Manitoba was, he had to state that children were in bread lines and in soup lines.

He was grabbing, not only at straws but he was grabbing at soup lines to try and give a negative impact on the people of Manitoba how bad things were in Winnipeg. Mr.

Speaker, I was concerned when I read that in the paper and I immediately had our people look into the matter, but what the Honourable Leader of the Opposition doesn't recognize when he makes a statement like that, that he casts aspersions on the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg who have the mandate for looking after the children in Winnipeg, who have investigated it and found that there was nothing there other than the fact that families are encouraged to bring their children with the person that they are treating for alcoholism.

But this Leader of the Opposition doesn't care about the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg and their mandate, the good work they are doing for looking after the children in Winnipeg. He wants to cast aspersions on the government by making an innuendo that things are so bad in the City of Winnipeg the children are standing in soup lines. That is how far this government has gone with their negative approach to try to completely play down the good quality of life in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, not only in addition to that, he tries to tie the closing down of Limestone Generating Station_ to this government with the innuendos he made in his remarks. That is not true. The government of the day, in that time the Opposition was the government, they closed down Limestone. Then they come back and say that if they were government they wouldn't close down Limestone, they would reopen it, and liken it to a farmer hiding his money in a jar in his farmyard instead of risking his money in the coming year on planting grain. Mr.

Speaker, that tells me what their principles or their thinking of running a business is all about. If they didn't recognize, Mr. Speaker, that our 40 million drought program was in fact exactly what they are saying should be done. We encouraged the farmers to go out and plant grain for the feedstock industry. We encouraged the farmers that were raising cattle to buy out-of-province hay. But, Mr. Speaker, if we were to accept their argument that they should open the generating station right now, 1 would liken that, Mr.

Speaker, to saying to the farmers, instead of hiding your money in the jar, go out and buy another combine. You've got a combine in your farmyard that will look after acreage and even your neighbour's 40 percent of acreage, but go out and buy another combine anyway and have it there to look after your resource when the resource is needed. That is exactly what they are suggesting, Mr.

Speaker, when they talk about opening Limestone, because if we opened up Limestone without any requirement for that power, that building would be sitting there just the same way that the combine would be sitting there until it was needed. It wouldn't be refining the water and turning it into power, because there wouldn't be any need for the power. That, Mr. Speaker, is why it is so important that we set the broad base of the requirements for power energy in our province. We know the resource is there.

We want to start buying those combines or building those generating stations, but the need for the resource has to be there before we do it or otherwise we will bankrupt the farmer by asking him to buy that combine that he doesn't need, in the same way that we would bankrupt the hydro user by asking him to pay in his bill for hydro stations that are not required in Manitoba, because that is exactly what the former government did, which resulted in 100 and some 20 percent increase in power rates in three years time, to pay for those generators that were not required and are not being used. That, Mr.

Speaker, is what this government would lead the Province of Manitoba and its people to think should be done, when they in fact recognized it too late and closed down Limestone when they did. Mr. Speaker, I might also say to remind the honourable members opposite that we have set the stage for attracting industry here by freezing the hydro rates for five years through general funding rather than going the reverse step and building the plant and increasing the hydro rates. Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition made innuendos again about we had nothing for the small business community and that they would do something for the small business community, but they haven't said what they are going to do. They just let the line, "We'll do something for small business," not reminding the Opposition, Mr.

Speaker, that when they were in government they had the inheritance tax, which small businesses were leaving the province because they wanted to leave it on to their children and felt that with the government of that day there would be nothing left of the business once the inheritance tax was taken. Mr. Speaker, the other thing that struck me of interest was, the Opposition, particularly the Leader of the Opposition, cannot accept the fact that a Progressive Conservative Government has a social conscience.

They really can't accept that and it still bothers them immensely, and it goes to such extremes that in the Honourable Leader of the Opposition's speech he made so·me comment with regard to the Day Care Program, that the best comment he could make is, "The maintenance rates have been frozen for three years. There are no programs for seniOf citizens." That's how much negative outlook he has on this province. Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that we have the best Day Care Program in Canada, if not in the North American continent. Further to that, Mr.

Speaker, he tries to imply that we are not trying to get the take-up of the money that is available. We're out there advertising, encouraging people to get involved in Day Care Programs. They complain that we are spending 23,000 to try and get 4 million spent. That's what they complain about. They negatively say we should 199

Monday, 22 December, 1980 not advertise to get people involved in the Day Care Program on one hand, yet they say that we're not getting the take-up as quick. Mr. Speaker, some of the things we did this year, we were trying to account for the fact that we are not going to be able to spend that money. They ran into the same difficulties when they were government. Mr. Speaker, when they imply that the maintenance grant has been frozen, I might indicate to the honourable members opposite that is why we had introduced the one time only, 100 refurbishment grant.

That in effect gives the existing facilities an increase of 100 per space in terms of maintenance for this year. We will look at the maintenance grant for the coming year. We will look at the maintenance grant, but we also have an objective of providing 3,300 new spaces. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface knows that if we start to increase maintenance grants and other programs in that particular program that we may not be able to meet the 3,300 spaces because we ran out of money and that is not what we want to do. Mr.

Speaker, to give you an idea of our program and to tie it in with the comments that are being made that we're not progressive any more, that we're not a progressive government, that were made by the Member for Churchill, and with regard to the minimum wage, I would just suggest to you, if you took a pencil and calculated out that if there was an individual on minimum wage, and I question whether there is one that is the main breadwinner of the family, but they would be earning in the neighbourhood of I believe 6,500 or 7,000, that individual, if he or she has a child in the Day Care Program and they are attending and they're fully subsidized, qualify for 2, 720 for the Day Care Program; they will now qualify for 360 under the CRISP program.

If they are renting a facility they will be able to receive assistance from the SAFER program which could amount to some 1,400 maximum. Start adding them up; 2,720 and 360 is 3,080 and another 1,400.00. They have access to 4,400 of programs to assist them. So, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to you that is very progressive and that when they make the indications that we're not a progressive type of party, then they better check again themselves to see if in fact we are not progressive, that they have to recognize that they cannot always be negative when there are some good programs around. Mr.

Speaker, the same Leader of the Opposition made innuendos that promises were broken, promises that were made in the election are not being carried out. Yet, Mr. Speaker, if you look at the brochure that went out during the election, there were some ten promises in that particular brochure that went out to all of Winnipeg. You know, Mr. Speaker, 90 percent of those promises have been completed or are in the process of being completed. One of them was there would be a reduction in personal and corporation taxes in Manitoba to make our province competitive with others. That was easy.

There was 2 percent for the small business and 2 percent for the individual. Mr. Speaker, the next one was that there will be changes in education policy and leadership under a Progressive Conservative Government. Mr. Speaker, I hear "haw haw" somewhere over there, but we were the government -(Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the Minister of Education, has taken distinct steps towards funding of special education. We have taken that approach, that government didn't take that approach.

This government has brought out a new Schools Act and it went for years before that government would even look at it, but we have taken that step. We have also taken a major step in the study of educational financing in the province. We have also changed the curriculum restructuring to make sure that our students get the special grounding of basic skills. So, Mr. Speaker, that promise has been kept. The next one says there will be a lowering of education taxes on our homeowners and farms. I think the honourable members opposite know that we have increased the rebate by 100, the minimum maximum.

Senior citizens we have increased to 175.00. The Weir Commission is now presently studying the assessments all over the province and I think it has been indicated in our Throne Speech that further steps will be taken during this year. The next one, Mr. Speaker, there will be an immediate abolition of succession and gift taxes, mineral acreage taxes, and other unnecessary taxes imposed on our people. That has been completed, and it goes on and on. Do you want me to continue? A MEMBER: Yes. MR. MINAKER: There will be more nursing homes for our needy older residents.

Our present government, that was the NDP, gives too little to those who are in real need and wastes too much on those able to look after themselves. Mr. Speaker, my honourable colleague, the Minister of Health advises me that we now have, I think it's what, 841 new additional spaces that were in existence prior to the government of that day, being designed or under construction at the present time, with his objective to reach 1,000. That, Mr. Speaker, reminds me of the question that the Honourable Member for Transcona raised today. They are so negative now over there, Mr.

Speaker, they are trying to get confrontation between those agencies who want to build personal care homes and the proprietary ones, both trying to receive the same objective, trying to get a confrontation going there between them, saying that these people are no good and these people are good. But this is a negative approach that they have taken. By the way, I understand that's nearly two dozen new personal care homes that we'll be looking at. Mr.

Speaker, the next one of the other promises was, there should be a new Charter for the City of Winnipeg to assist councillors to make that government more responsible and less expensive for taxpayers. Mr. Speaker, we have amended the City Charter. We eliminated the Municipal Board. We introduced block funding and we have given the councillors in the City of Winnipeg responsive and responsible - to their actions. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that we see less confrontation now with the City of Winnipeg councillors and the government of Manitoba than we did in the years that they were in government. Mr.

Speaker, it goes on and on. There must be and will be a continuation of Medicare, Pharamacare, home repair programs and provincial income 200

Monday, 22 December, 1980 supplements. Do you know why that was in there? Because that government of that day which put in scare tactics that if they were not in government Medicare would no longer be. They even said that Autopac would no longer be. They have dropped that one now. But that's the exact negative approach that this Opposition is taking right now and they finally believe that there is nothing good about Manitoba; nothing good at all. The next promise that was made, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: Order please. hope the honourable member isn't reading from a newspaper. MR.

MINAKER: No, it's not a newspaper, Mr. Speaker, it's a brochure. But I thank the Speaker for reminding me about that particular rule. These are the promises that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition said have not been kept. Mr. Speaker, the next promise was that there will be an expansion of the provincial park system to provide adequate camping facilities and access to cottage sites to people throughout Manitoba. I understand, Mr. Speaker, there are some 5,000 existing camping sites and another 300 that are proposed over the next two or three years. Mr.

Speaker, I am happy to report for the Honourable Minister responsible for parks that in 1977, cottage lots leased or by sale were 259; 1978, 156; 1979, 157; and 1980, 297 and still available for lease are 83 and still available for sale are 62. And I say, Mr. Speaker, these people maybe can't get outside this building but we have some beautiful country in Manitoba. I would say the best in the world, but this Opposition on the other side hasn't realized that yet obviously, because they've had nothing good to say about Manitoba; not an iota. Mr. Speaker, the last promise.

Yes, much to the regret of the Opposition, particularly the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, there must be, there will be a program to permit farmers to buy Crown land. Mr. Speaker, that is what I mean about the Leader of the Opposition making innuendos that - promises not being kept. A MEMBER: What does he know? MR. MINAKER: Well I didn't want to go that far, Mr. Speaker, but, Mr. Speaker, then, and I am happy that my honourable colleague and friend the Member for St. Boniface is here because he even went so far as, the other day, to ask if we were going to raise the supplement.

We were going to raise the supplement, a program that was doubled on October 15th, I believe it was, or September 1st - doubled, Mr. Speaker, doubled - hardly in existence for some three months. And I might say, Mr. Speaker, that in 1974, when the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks was the Minister that the single payment, a quarterly payment was 23.46 for four months; in 1975, under the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, still 23.46; in 1977, still 23.46. Mr.

Speaker, we have taken the step to double it and we turn around and get criticism for not going farther, yet these people on the opposite side did nothing for four years. But that is the kind of innuendos, and what kind of headlines do we get in the Free Press, Mr. Speaker, with a request like that? Mr. Speaker, we get NDP requests, MSP increased. That's the kind of headlines, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, you start to wonder when you have an Opposition that is so negative that they start to convince some of our citizens and our media that there is nothing good about Manitoba, that it takes someone from Vancouver to write to Barbara Cansino, but just to quote from a copy, Mr. Speaker, that was made by a visitor to Winnipeg from Vancouver, it says, "A secret we have been keeping to ourselves for too long," and the secret, "Winnipeg gives the impression of being a lovely city in which to raise a family especially with house prices so very low. Your young people are in a unique position in Canada.

They can live in an urban environment with all the amenities without suffering pollution, acid rain, traffic congestion, and the awful side effects of boom." And it puts in brackets, "I am thinking of Edmonton's crime rate." And this is important, Mr. Speaker, this is important, "A family that is just starting out can live in a spacious new home for less than one-third of the cost of a comparable home in Vancouver.

If I were starting a family today, I certainly would not remain here in Vancouver, but would pack up and move to Winnipeg, not only to take advantage of good cheap housing but also to benefit from a friendly unharried atmosphere." Where have the Opposition been, Mr. Speaker? Have they been reading in their background on Saskatchewan and all these other places? And it says, "aesthetically, recreationally, and financially" - listen to this, Mr.

Speaker, - "esthetically, recreationally and financially and most important in human terms, I think Winnipeg is a winner, perhaps it is a secret you have kept to yourselves too long. Yours truly, Thelmer Oliver." Mr. Speaker, I think that hits home. It hits home in two areas, Mr. Speaker. It appears that it takes someone from outside of our province to recognize just how great a province we have here in Manitoba. We have recognized it for years. I wouldn't live anywhere else, Mr. Speaker, I have lived here all my life. I have no intentions of going anywhere else. MR.

DESJARDINS: Even when we get back into government? MR. MINAKER: At that time I might be at a retirement age, Mr. Speaker, so I can't vouch for that one. Mr. Speaker, they talk of doom and gloom over there. Mr. Speaker, they say that. our unemployment is up, yet, Mr. Speaker, it's amazing that we have something like 400 and - where are all these statistics? I wouldn't want to get in trouble with the Minister of Labour, but I know it is somewhere in the neighbourhood of some 476,000 people employed, 1 believe it is, at present time, and it was 426,000 when we took over.

The people that are employed in the province right now; 476,000. It reached an all time high, I think, a couple of months ago. The other amazing part, if things are so bad here, Mr. Speaker, it's interesting that our welfare rates have been falling substantially. Mr. Speaker, to give you an example, they have been falling for about the last six years - give credit. But if things were so bad why haven't they been going up, because we haven't changed the regulations, in fact we've increased every year the social allowance? I think it was eight 201

Monday, 22 December, 1980 percent in the first year and nine percent last year and ten percent this year. So, it doesn't mean that we are restricting people from going on the welfare roles. But if it's such a doom and gloom province that you are talking about on the opposite side, why hasn't that gone up? And why has the workforce gone up. Mr. Speaker, something is wrong with their thinking over there.

They are locked into that negative feeling, that doom and gloom syndrome and one must start to wonder if they don't start to change their ways, they no longer will be the New Democratic Party, they will the negative Democratic Party -we'll have to call them. Mr. Speaker, I hope that the Leader of the Opposition and the members of the Opposition recognize that this is a pretty damn good place to live and it's one of the best in Canada and will continue to be the best and continue to grow, but as long as the Opposition has that negative feeling about our province, they will stay on the opposite side.

They will stay there and they are not doing anything good for the people of Manitoba. They are not being a good Opposition. They are not giving positive criticism. It's strictly negative, but they will stay there till doomsday for sure. Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your attention. I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and hope that we will see you back healthy when the session resumes. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: I too, Sir, would like to wish you a very Merry Christmas.

I'd like to wish a Merry Christmas to the Mover and the Seconder to the Speech from the Throne, and what the hell, I would like to wish everybody a happy Christmas, the members on all sides of the House, the Press Gallery and even you Jack, and your friends. I think that we have enough so close to Christmas, I can tell you that I really caught the Christmas spirit and I won't indulge in this name-calling which I very seldom do anyway. We've had so much, and I would like to instead try to get you in that spirit. What do you do? What is that spirit all about, Mr. Speaker?

There's good drinking and eating; there's Christmas carols; there's Christmas fables. You have already ruled that we can't bring food in this House, that's out. If I try to sing Christmas carols, I think you'd name me, and we've had a five-hour debate in an eight-hour session. That's enough on that, so I will try to give you a little Christmas fable and it's entitled, "The Littlest Lion". It has a few chapters. The first

chapter is the roaring lion, and there was this cute little lion. Oh, what a mighty roar he had and a beautiful red mane, but he was just a little cub, and he always had this good life that certainly befits somebody born to the top of the animal kingdom, a privilege. He was looking around and he had most of the animal kingdom at his command, just there to help him get the wealth and help his kind. But he always was told that the most important this is to protect the status quo. Any of these changes, any disruption, was very, very bad.

That's why you had to have so much law and order, just to make sure that the status quo would be kept. If you talked about spreading the wealth in the kingdom, in the animal kingdom, well that was stupid, that was heresay and that was communism. And the little lion, the little cub was quite a bit paranoid about this. Well, in those days there was an owl that was ruling the Manitoba Zoo.

And an owl that was talking about - mind you that was the first time it ever happened in this zoo, it was an owl, it had always been lions before - he was talking, this owl was talking about a minimum of wealth, of care and services for everybody, even the most lowly insect in the kingdom, well that of course was a real joke, that never had been mentioned before. And the little lion had lots of fun on this and he vowed to fight this owl. Well this little cub watched the other lions, he saw the mightiest of the lions, the majestic, arrogant and distant head lion in the Ottawa Zoo.

But that lion was from a different clan so he wasn't too much of a friend. In fact the little cub resented him and certainly envied him. And then there was another lion in a Quebec Zoo. He didn't understand him too well because he roared in French and he talked about maybe breaking away, taking his zoo and getting away from the other zoos and that, sir, was treason. Of course, there was this all-powerful lion in Alberta, he was very, very rich.

He had the lowest tax, he had a surplus, and his budget, no matter what he tried, he had been encouraged, this lion, this mighty lion, to seek the top job, the transfer in the Ottawa Zoo, but he had too good a thing, he wasn't interested in that at all. Well, the cub watched all these mighty lions and he practised strutting like these lions. Well, you know, it didn't befit him. The poor little thing was so cute and it had such a loud roar, you know, people thought that he was real cute. And in the second

chapter of this little fable, sir, was the lion who cried wolf. Now the little cub started to say that if this owl stayed in power the wolves would come in and destroy the kingdom, the animal kingdom. And he started to blame everything on this owl. Talking about somewhere, not too long ago I heard people talking about the doom and gloom, well, that reminded me, this is what he is doing, every single thing, inflation, everything, was blamed on the owl and he cried wolf.

Inflation came in, he cried wolf; some unemployment, he cried wolf; the debt, the deficite, it was wolf; confrontation with the top dog - excuse me, that's just a figure of speaking, it was the top lion - and he yelled wolf. Well, many of the animals started to worry. Started to believe, especially when the owl talked about retiring. And then an election came, they had elections in those days, Sir, in the kingdom also and all these promises that we heard about and all these cries of wolf, and lo and behold that little cub was chosen the leader of the Manitoba Zoo.

In the next chapter, of course, we see the cub in control. And he organizes council, he had a couple of peacocks, a mad dog, a couple of chipmunks, but mostly jackasses and laughing hyenas, who laughed, Sir, on cue whenever the little cub roared.

Then what he did, he took care of his council, that was his first act, there was a purge of the animals in the working sector, and then became the real tough saying, you know, beautiful saying and the little cub was strutting around saying, tighten your belt now that we took care of our friends, and they started saying restraint first and need second, and they talked about people that should be underpaid but overworked, you know for the good of everybody. 202

Monday, 22 December, 1980 And of course the little lion was quite paranoid. But he kept on with all this yelling of wolf until somebody said, well you know it was cute, but it's no longer cute, he's getting to be pain in the - well, animals don't talk like that but anyway, they felt that something should be done to change the image of this little lion because it was starting to be a concern. And they hired different experts to come in and change the image of this lion. You can imagine how paranoid he became, sir.

In the animal kingdom they had something like our House here and I would imagine that the Speaker, equivalent to you would be the zoo keeper and one day that lion got so mad that he told the zoo keeper, Sir, that he wasn't there to think, he was there to obey and go along with the little cub. Of course, people wouldn't do a thing like that, Mr. Speaker. Now during that time, of course the owl had left, he was no longer the Leader of the Opposition and the animal that was chosen was a Leader of the Opposition, the one that was going to fight them, a buffalo.

He was a hard plugging, very sincere animal, he had a mane but it wasn't anywhere near beautiful as that mane in fact it was known that he combed it a different way to hide a few bald spots but he was sincere and he was good natured. And he was a hard worker. He wasn't too tough because he was a good man and when he tried to be tough people told him that you have to be tough to fight this lion, it didn't come too naturally so it was a little bit of a joke, especially the little cub figured, well, no problem with this guy. But then he kept on.

He kept on working hard, very sincere and he wanted to help all the people, not just a certain class. He was very dedicated and then it became a fact that they were concerned. So every time the word was, every time you speak, knock him; knock the buffalo. Try to take his credibility away from him because he's doing a good job and they did that to one, everybody did that. Well, things got worse and the little paranoid cub, he tried to change his image, oh God he tried, but he'd forget.

There was always something that happened, like the media used to, some of them had been very friendly, in fact there was one that he been extremely friendly to the little cub, I think it was Freddy the weasel and he started to tell things the way they were, you see, and it talked about the broken promises and so on, so the little lion was really mad. But he kept on, the people and the animals started to worry. They figured well, he had cried wolf too often. And it was obvious that things were bad. So it was decided that with every failure of the little cub's government, they would pull one of his teeth.

He started restraint; when they abandoned restraint when the biggest tooth came out, the one on the left, no, restraint, the one on the right, came out. And then the deficit. Although there was a lot more money that came from the head zoo in Ottawa. Well, another tooth came out. And many of the animals were leaving the zoo for other zoos and another tooth. And not only confrontation with certain animals but ignorant, completely, another tooth. The moral of the workers, the lowest ever, another tooth.

And there are so many other things, they hadn't started with inflation and reduction of services, and all these things, Sir, that there was not a single tooth left. So they start cutting his mane. And soon it was very sad. This little cub who tried to strut around was toothless and when he roared it came out something like pffth - you know, just beating his gums, and he was naked, Sir. He was naked. So then there was desperation. But the three wise men came in to visit the kingdom and they went around with the animals, and the animals said, what are we going to do, things are so bad?

Well, the wise men said, first of all we want you to know that you don't have to be a lion to be the head push here. You can be a buffalo, you can be a bald headed eagle, they had some, they had one, a bald headed eagle, they had a turkey, they had a frog and they had different animals, a few burros and so on, and they told him that the wolves are not understood, the wolves are not that bad. But they said, first of all be merciful, be merciful. Get the little cub out of his misery, just get rid of that little cub because he's suffering too much.

Sir, as I said I thought with the season I thought we should have a little fun and have a Christmas fable. And if there was any resemblance with the characters in the story with anybody around here, Sir, it was purely intentional. Mr. Speaker, there are more than games and fun in the Christmas season, you have to be serious also. And I think that this is the time for love, for charity, for sharing, for hope and thanksgiving.

And if we started by thanksgiving, I have no difficulty, Sir, no difficulty at all in going along with the last speaker and say that we have a fantastic and a wonderful place to live in this country of ours. And I'm not just saying that, I'm not going to go as far and say the most beautiful country is Manitoba, you can wave the flag and please the Chamber of Commerce, but we have a wonderful country and I'm comparing it to any country, even the richest country of them all in the south because we haven't got the same crime, our values are a little different.

There is progress but progress has not yet anyway pushed everything out of the way and I would hope that even with the inflation and unemployment and all the problems that we have, Sir, we are so fortunate in this country and I think that we should all work, there is no doubt, to keep this country together. Now charity, and maybe we should start in this House. It was said many times this afternoon by the Minister of Health and by the Minister of Agriculture that there's the doom and gloom on this side and that we're not constructive and that we blame them for everything.

Well, of course, we can't blame the present government or the former government or the future government for all inflation. Of course we can't blame them for everything, for the climate and for everybody leaving Winnipeg, of course we can't. But, Sir, it's not just when you sit in a certain place. If we made an effort, and maybe I'm starting today by a member of the opposition recognizing that, that everything is not to be blamed on the government.

You know we talked about what the situation is and how little respect politicians have and we can see that but is it any wonder, do you know of any other class of man who becomes so bitter, who rejoice maybe when somebody's embarrassed, and it seems to me that this is supposed to be fair game in politics. I think it is a disgrace the way the Prime Minister of this country has been abused. If you had 203

Monday, 22 December, 1980 listened to some people, some other politician and I certainly don't agree with him in many, many instances, but he is the worst criminal in history. And after all he reflects the people that elected him. You can criticize, you can offer an alternative without criticizing, without overdoing it, and maybe that's the kind of charity we should have and maybe the people would respect us more if we respected each other. Now it is also a time of sharing.

And I'm reminded of the words of our Pope when he visited the States, I think last year, who said, "You must take of your substance and not just of your abundance in order to help them and you must treat them like guests at your family table." I think we forget that too often. Now, I am not going to say that everything that this government will do is wrong. There is no monopoly on good things - the people on this side of the House or on bad things on that side - there is some good and some bad in every quarter and probably every row and every

section and if everybody wants the same thing, if we are all the same, well then we wouldn't have these parties. We wouldn't have these parties. It's kind of a shame for a Minister who spoke today and talked about gloom and doom, and talking of making a disservice to the people of Manitoba - if he meant it - but wasn't he the one that was reported when he was in opposition that he had phoned, I think it was San Francisco, to suggest they don't buy busses from Flyers? You know, Sir, if we are going to have this kind of talk, let's have it no matter where we sit and let's work together.

I think it's going too far and I am kind of sorry that the Minister of Health cannot hear me now, because I think he went a little too far and it doesn't befit him. I think he is a gentleman, but he accused the members on this side of wanting a failure in the economy of this province and I resent that very much because I certainly will not place politics ahead of the welfare of these people and I don't think he does. Of course I said awhile ago we like to embarrass each other but I think that's going a little too far, Sir.

If there is any difference between the two groups - and that's what we should fight on then I'll start by saying that I believe in the sincerity and the honesty of both sides but I think that a Conservative wants to protect the status quo and wants to protect for years and generations. You have had the rich people, the people that have the power, the people that have the wealth, and the main thing is try to play up to them; to try to set up a business - they call it a business climate - to attract them.

It is felt, and I don't say this in any way to detract from them, I don't believe it and this is why I am on this side of the House, but there are some people that say well, okay, it is the only way that it is going to work. Even the crumbs, you might call it crumbs, that the core people, those that don't have the control, that don't share with all this wealth, at least they've got something, and if you didn't do it that way, well then there wouldn't be those brains that would create jobs. They are very sincere and up to a point it is true.

It is true that right now, these people if they have a choice, I don't admire them for that, but if these people that control the wealth and that have one thing in mind, the dollar sign and that becomes their God, and if the important thing is to attract these people, and if they have a choice they are going to go along, the same as some of the doctors did in Medicare. So therefore, there is a certain amount of truth in saying, we've got to do that because they are going to go somewhere else. But do we have to follow all the time? Wouldn't it be better, Sir, if we did.

I certainly don't think that's something to be ashamed of. When my former leader said that he was hoping that they would be about two and a half - I took it that was a symbol, an idea, some people took it literally - but the important thing is that he was trying to even things up a bit. Is it fair? Is it Christian? Is it right that 90 percent of the wealth should be concentrated in just the hands of so few? There is no doubt, Sir, that if you want to have this climate, you can push things even further. You can go back to slavery because that would be good.

Labour costs are at least 70 percent of a cost of doing business in most businesses, and if you didn't have that 70 percent you would create a real good business climate that the people from all over the world could come. Is it any wonder, Sir, that you have wars? We don't talk about that. We talk about failures and we talk about the only way it is that you cater to these few because they are the ones that have the brains to create jobs and you don't attach any failure to this system. You don't recognize that what are the wars for and many of the crimes.

It's easy to wave the flag like the Minister of Agriculture did a few days ago and talk that he was a Canadian. Of course he spat the word socialism, that was bad. That was dirty, but he wanted to go across the country. The country is divided. The country is not divided with Trudeau and the Conservatives, the country is divided between east and west. There is no doubt that we have to fight the first thing of all, and too bad that the motion that I want to introduce will not be introduced or debated during this session, because I think it is very important. Unfortunately the leaders of the west, starting with Mr.

Lougheed and our Premier here, have not come out and said no, under no circumstance are we going to divide this country. We are going to fight for our people. We are going to fight to get our fair share but we are not going to divide this country because we are living in a very good country and I think that's the first thing that should be done. The Minister of Agriculture also compared and talked about Poland, how things were bad, and he wanted to show that a socialist country or a Communist country, that the people didn't like it.

The same people that objected are the members of the union who object when certain things in a capitalist country are not true, are not fair, and he didn't recognize that. Sir, I think that it is only normal that there is going to be a lot of diversity and I think it is what has made Canada what it is today. I think it's good. I think that you can be proud of your country and you can be united in diversity. I don't think there is anything wrong, because we don't just want a bunch of rubber stamps in this country. 1 think, Sir, that it is very important to maybe look around us.

If we compare things to a family, what would you do for your family? If you had one of your children who was the go-getter and so on, what would you do? Would you try to get a climate to suit him at the expense of somebody else? I am not 204

Monday, 22 December, 1980 asking, far from being a Communist, I don't believe in that all, but I certainly do believe in trying to spread the wealth a little more than it is now, not only between people, between nations also. We talked about charity. It is not charity when you give of your surplus and you give with something either to divide or to conquer or try to buy, unfortunately it's done by the richer countries in many instances. So, I think, Sir, that maybe it is befitting that we'll finish this debate only a day or so before Christmas.

Maybe we will think of the sharing, this love, and charity and honesty and respect for each other, and maybe this will be something that will show to the people that we are doing our best; that we do not agree but we have certain things to offer. We are wasting our time now in yelling insults at each other. It's been done and it probably will be done forever, but it's the system. Everything is fair in politics. You can say anything in politics because it's been accepted, but it's not working. Look at the way it is there.

I don't think there is any other profession or occupation that in these days right now, that are less respected than politicians. The word politician practically becomes a bad word that you are practically ashamed of and I think it depends a lot on us, Sir. There is no doubt there is bound to be an election coming fairly soon and let's talk about that.

The way I see it - I can be corrected - I see a group of people who say protect the status quo; help these people that have most of the wealth now because they are going to create jobs and from that we will derive jobs and work and so on, or, let's say these things that come, especially the natural resources and so on, let's spread them out, let's spread them around a little bit, not two and a half, not even ten and a half and let people have a good profit. Let the people that are working hard be recompensed. Let's have at least a kind of a minimum of wealth in a strong country like we have.

You can see that it is a complete failure if you compare the way it is in the States that you see so many poor people. If you people think that the States is an example of perfection, I think that you are sadly mistaken. If you would go to the ghettos of the large cities like Detroit, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, you would see that there is no hope there at all. It is a life of crime and that's all it is and it always will be until this is changed. There is not much the people can do if they want to live. They have to either die or fight back in any way possible. Mr. Speaker, I don't intend to go any longer.

I very seriously, very sincerely do wish every member of this House a Merry Christmas, and I would hope that they remember the faith in our country, thanksgiving, charity, sharing and mostly hope for the coming year. Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and congratulations to you, Sir, on your taking the Chair again this session.

I think you have demonstrated that you can ably handle the job and even with the unfortunate situation that we had happen in the House last Monday, I think it proves that the job of a Speaker is an onerus one and one that has to be worked on very hard, which you do, Sir. My congratulations to the mover and the seconder for the marvelous job that they did and also I would like to say to the Honourable Member for St. Boniface that it should be a happy time of the year. I don't intend - I don't have a story to tell like he did - but I think we should all be looking forward to the Christmas season.

But there is one thing, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable member mentioned and he mentioned politicians that were being criticized today. He mentioned the fact that when you say you are a politician it's related to being a very bad person and I think he is absolutely right in that respect and I guess that we only have ourselves to blame for that particular situation. But, Mr.

Speaker, one of the reasons for abuses between politicians are being presented in this House and I feel by the opposition they are also presenting something to this province which leads members on this side - and I think probably all people who live in Manitoba - to feel like giving some abuse because we are not as badly off in Manitoba as the opposition would want to have people think and we certainly are not going downhill or to the point where Manitoba is going to disappear. Manitoba will always be here, it always has been. It always has been a very steady province, Mr. Speaker.

But one of the reasons for abuse, Mr. Speaker, also is the fact that somebody gets up in the House and makes statements and they haven't really done their research and naturally when the media, or anybody listening to those statements pick them up, they can only suggest that because it comes from a responsible person that it's correct, or should be correct.

As a matter of fact I can remember one occasion when I was very fractionally wrong when I made a speech and it got reported that the research hadn't been right, etc., and so you should be corrected if you're going to make statements that you have that are wrong and especially when you're in this arena you have the opportunity to have research and in this arena we should try to be as accurate as possible. Last year, Mr.

Speaker, when the Leader of the Opposition made his speech accepting the leadership, and I mentioned it in the Throne Speech last year, he said Yamaha, Sekine, Sony, and Misawa Homes were all planning to leave Manitoba. I presented that to him when I spoke in the Throne Speech and I produced letters from three of those people to say that they intended to stay in Manitoba, there was no intention of leaving. Misawa Homes, Sir, has closed their office here because they were in the housebuilding business and they found it as tough as many of our housebuilders are today, and they are closed. But you know, Sekine, Mr.

Speaker, the latest report I have from my department is that last November 14th, or as of November 14th, they have 79 employees and when they opened up approximately eight months ago, when they finally got it going, they had nine employees, you know so that seems to me that they're going to be here for a long time. The bookings this season will end on December 31st and it looks like they'll have about 4 million worth of bookings and when they started up they had 250 million, and this was all done on the basis of a local group of people working very hard, a 205

Monday, 22 December, 1980 Brandon group of people working very hard to take that company over, make their arrangements with the parent company of Sekine and we have a viable operation working in the province now. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition in his speech made a statement about research in Manitoba, that the Province of Manitoba was not spending as much on R and D and research as there was previously. Well, Mr. Speaker, in 1976-77 we had a total of 467,605 was what was spent by the Manitoba Research Council. Today, Mr. Speaker, 1980-81 budget, the total that will be spent will be 4,059,000.00.

Now, Mr. Speaker, those figures are all available, they're even in Estimates and the Leader of the Opposition was very critical and very, I guess you'd call it sarcastic, Sir, in this respect that he said the only programs that we have in Manitoba as far as economic development are concerned are ones that are with the federal government.

Well I don't really know why that would be brought up because all governments, the previous government, this government, have got arrangements with the federal government in Tourism, Northern Affairs, energy agreements, etc., highways, they're all there, and through the agreement that we have with the federal government, we've spent in the Technology Branch, Sir, we have five people working and we spent a total of 165,000; in the Industrial Technology Centre in Winnipeg it's 2.9 million this year with 13 people and in the Food Technology Centre in Portage Ia Prairie it's 7 people where we spent 994,200, a total of 25 people and that's 4,059,000 and I repeat it because it's all figu