Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 6A (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-6a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions ... Rea ding and Receiving Peti tions ... Prese nting Reports by Standi ng and Spe cial Comm ittees ... MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General HON. ROLAND PENNER, Attorney-General (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to file the Tenth Annual Report of the Manitoba Polic e Comm ission for the calendar year 19 81 .

At present there are only thr ee copies made available to me and I will endeavo ur to make sur e that there are copies for all members as soon as they are available from the printer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS, Minister of Health (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I have a state ment that I wish to make. I felt it was important enough and there are copies for all members of the House. Mr. Speaker, on Monday, March 1s t I read a state ment in this Hous e respecting the impasse between the MMA and Gover nment concerning the issue of binding arbitra tion. I stated that,

whereas the MMA was demanding binding arbitration in connection with fee negotiations, the government could not accept this proposal under the thr eat that cu rrent negotiations would not succeed without binding arbi tration. At the same time I reported that we were pre pared to enter into serious discussi ons with the MMA regar di ng this issue but asked them to advise their negotiating team to return to the table and to bargain in good faith respecting the 19 82-83 fee schedu le. On Wednesday, March 3, 19 82, I received the attached letter from Dr .

Frank Pearso n, President of the Mani toba Medical Assoc iation. Here's the letter: "Dear Mr. Desjardins: In response to your demand that the issues of fee negotiations and binding arbitr ation be separated, I wish to advise you that the Association's Executive Commit tee has adopted the fol lowing position. MMA Executive Policy Statement on Compul sory Binding Arbitration "Wher eas the Minister of Health has instructed the Manitoba Health Services Co mmission to cease all further negotiations with the Manitoba Medical Asso ciation, thereby violati ng the cu rrent MMA/MHSC contract, THEREFORE BE IT RE SOLVED .

"1) That ther e be an agreement tha t all futur e nego tiations and contr acts between the Man itoba Government and the MMA provide for compu lsory 110 binding arbitration to settle impasses. "2) That the MMA's other colle ctive bar gaining principles, which reguire leg islative action, be sub ject to imme diate serious review by the Man itoba Government. Fur thermor e, that meaningful discus sions take place with the MMA to determine when legislation can reasonably be introdu ced. "3) That fur ther fee negotiations with the MHSC be conditional on the above two principles being met.

"4) That the MMA's Job Action Com mittee organ ize and carry out a progressive work-to-rule campaign throughout Manitoba in support of principles one and two, above. Your s sincerely, Frank Pearson. M. D. President" Mr. Speaker, I'm very disappointed that the Execu tive of the MMA have seen fit to reject my offer to resume negotiations in good faith.

They know, as we all know, that the issue of binding arbitration requir es chan ges in leg islation - changes that will requir e much debate by a variety of groups including the Mani toba Gov ernme nt, other Pro vinc ial Go vern ments. the Federal Government, the Col lege of Physi cians and Surgeons and certainly 50 percent of the practising physicians in Manitoba who have either rejected the principle or have yet to be heard. This being the case one can only assume that the MMA Exec utive have decided that it is not in their best interests to resume negotiations on the 19 82-83 fee

schedule but rather intend to lead their membership astray by su ggesting that binding arbitra tion and the resulting changes in legis lation are achievable with out the normal debate and consideration that such an important issue deserves. Fur therm ore. as indicated in Dr. Pearson's March 3rd letter, it appears that the MMA has already set up a Job Action Comm ittee to organ ize and carry out a progressive work-to-rule campaign throughout Mani toba - a campai gn that can only result in a dete riora tion of relationships between physicians and their patients.

It is with th e foregoing in mind that I have now written the attached letter to the Manitoba Medical Association. "D ear Dr . Pearson: 'This is in response to your March 3rd letter advis ing me of the MMA Executive Pol icy Statement on Compu lsory Binding Arbit ration. "It is with extreme regret that I note the policy that your Executive Comm ittee are suppor ting, however, before commenting on the four issues included in your letter. may I once more attempt to set the records straight insofar as "who" is violating the cu rrent MMA MHSC contract. "I'm full y aware that there is a contract in existence

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 between the Manitoba Health Services Commi ssion and the MMA that calls upon each party to enter into negotiations within a given time frame with the objec tive of arriving at a fee sched ule that is acceptable to both parties. I had, and continue to have, every inten tion of honouring that agreement. May I point out that the MMA are neither bargai ning with in the intent or spirit of that agreement, in that they are now interject ing new conditions into the existing agreement that did not form part of the agreement that was signed a year ago.

I refer specifically to your cu rrent demands for binding arb itration. If indeed , we are nego tiating under an existi ng agreement, then let us abide by all terms of that agreement without either party interject ing new conditions. "With respect to the four points incl uded in your letter, please be advised of the following: "(1 ) While you are resolved that all "futu re" negotia tions and contracts between the Manitoba Govern ment and MMA provide for compuls ory binding arbi tration, you have made no reference to "current" negotiations.

Am I to assum e, therefore, that this reso lution refers to negotiations that may be carried out under futur e agreement, or am I to assume that you wish to reply to the existing agreement? "

(2) Regar ding you r request that other col lective bargai ning principles which require Legislative action be su bject to immediate serious review, I have alr eady given you a commitment in my Febru ary 25th letter to the effect that I was prepared to discuss the concept of binding arbitration with you and with my Cabi net Col leagues, and further, that I was prepared to enter into these discussions as urgently as possib le. You will also recall that I provided you with a similar commit ment in my Febru ary 24th letter, as wel l as a verbal commitment at our two previous meetings. "

(3) Regard ing the resolu tion that futur e negotia tions with MHSC be conditional upon the above two principles being met- agai n, if this refers to negotia tions under a new contract, I'm prepared to consider this along with my col leag ues. If, however, it refers to fee negotiations for 19 82-83 which are to be con duc ted under the existi ng agreement which does not terminate until March 31 , 19 82, then I cannot agree with this principle. "

(4) Respecti ng you r advice that your Job Action Comm ittee has been organized to carry out progres sive work-to-rule campaign throughout Manitoba - that, of cou rse, is your prerogative, but I can only assume that your Execu tive is prepared to accept the responsibil ity for such advice to your memb ership -advice that can onl y serve to dr ive a deeper wedge between your Association and Government.

I have great respect for the physicians who practise medi cine in Manitoba and I do not feel that they will take any action that will be detrime ntal to the relatio nship they have with their patients nor will they in any way jeopardize the health requirements of their patients. "In clo sing, Dr .

Pearso n, I am extremely disap pointed that you have not enab led your negotiating team to return to the table and to negotiate in good faith under the terms of the existing agreement. e, however, I realizthat the existing agreement runs until March 31, 19 82 and I remain hopeful that you and your 111 Executive will, on reflection, permit a normalization of the negotiating practise under the existing agreement." As indicated by the last letter to the MMA, Mr.

Speake.r, I remain hopefu l that the cu rrent negotia tions will be resumed before expiration of the cu rrent agreement and it is my intention to keep the public, the press and the practising physicians fully informed. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Honour able Minister for his state ment and to ass ure him that it is received on this side of the Hous e with great concern.

It is regretta ble that there appears to be a situation build ing in which inno cent victims will suffer the consequences of a situa tion over which they have no control and, in fact, about which they have never really been fully informed .

I refer to those patients who will suffer inconvenience, indisposition, perhaps worse, as a consequence of the response that may be forthcomi ng from some practi tioners in the province - and I emphasis the word "some" - to the instructions that have gone out from the President of the Manitoba Med ical Association to invoke a work to rul e strategy in the present circu mstances. I think we should not lose sight, Mr. Speaker, of the fact that it is the patients of those physicians who will suffer.

It's not us in this Hous e and it's not those of us who are fortuna te enough to enjoy relative good health but those patients who req uire and depend on medical service are going to be seriously affected by any such tactic or strategy. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the Minister, of cour se, and indeed I believe upon everybody in this Chamb er to ensur e that the impasse is broken and that a work to rule strategy, a work slowdown does not take place.

I have one other regret that I wou ld express at this ju nctu re, and that is, that it seems to me that the language of debate which ha d been relatively temper ate and restrai ned up until a few days ago, now seems to be undergoing escalation on both sides. I wou ld hope that all parties on all sides can revert to the most temperate language possible so as not to exacerbate the situat ion. Lastly, may I urge the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, because it is his responsibil ity in the final analysis to instruct the Manitoba Health Services Commis sion forthwith to make a cou nter-proposal on the fee sched ule to the MMA in keeping with the clause in the existi ng con tract. One may argue that is merely semantics because the 30 days have passed. Wel l I would accept that criticism, Mr. Speaker, but semantics or no, I th ink it is valu able to make every effort to under take every initia tive to resolve this situation before it worsens.

I very strongly urge the Minister to instruct the Manitoba Health Services Commi ssion so to do so that, in fact, negotiations and proposal and counterproposal, as an exercise in a mechanism prescribed under the existing agreement, exist de facto. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member of Com munity Services.

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, with leave I beg to Table the Annu al Rep ort of the Manitoba Telephone System for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 19 81 . Fu rther, I am advised that copies of this report have been distribut ed to the Members of the Legislative Assembly in October, 19 81 . MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. PENNER introduced Bill No. 3,

an Act to amend

An Act Respec ting the Operation of

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act in Regard to Statutes. Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'appl ication de !'ar ticle 23 de l'Acte du Mani toba aux textes legisla tifs. MR. PENNER introduced Bill No. 4,

an Act to amend The Garage Keepers Act. HON. EUGENE KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks) introd uced Bill No. 7,

An Act to amend The Arts Council Act. (Re commended by the Hono urable, the Adminis tra tor of the Provi nce of Manitoba): and Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend The Insurance Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Qu estions, may I direct the attention of the Honour able Members to the Gallery where, in the Speaker's Gal lery, we are honour ed to have with us the Speaker of the Ontario Legislatu re accompanied by Mr. Bob Fleming, the Director of Adminis tration, and Mr. Tom Mitchenson. On behalf of all the members I bid you welcome this afternoon. Also in the Gallery, we have a group of students from Ro senort Col leg iate, 21 student s of Grade 11 standing under the direction of Mr. Bjarnson.

This school is from the constituency of the Honour able Member for Morris. We have a group of 12 stu dent s in Grades 7, 8 and 9 from Glen boro School under the direction of Mr. Hu d son. This school is in the constituenc y of the Honour able Member for Gl adstone. There are 26 student s from Mur doch McKay Col le giate under the direction of Mr. Schroeder. This school is in the constituency of the Honour able Minis ter of Energy and Mines. On behalf of all the members I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norber t. MR. G. W .J. (Gerry) Mercier, (St.

Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I have some que stions for the Honou rable Minister of Ur ban Affairs. Can the Minister confirm that the Province of Manitoba is the implementing jur isdiction under the Core Area Initiative for the Logan Indus trial Park? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister for Ur ban Affairs. 112 MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, in response to the que s tion, the Province of Manitoba is the implementing ju risdiction on behalf of the thr ee parties to the Core Area In itiative Agreement with respect to the expro priation of land for the Logan Avenue Indus trial Park. MR.

MERCIER: Can the Minister confirm whether or not the Provincial Government is funding a citizens group in the Logan area to make a presentation to Mrs. Shapi ro's inquir y into the expropriation and if so, in what amou nt? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, this government on being sworn into office, was made aware of the fact that expropriations were proceed ing in the Logan Avenue area with respect to the Logan Aven ue Indus trial Park, and we had been informed that the previous government had waived the right of inquir y under The Expropriation Act sometime last fal l.

On receiving this informati on it was felt that one of the aims of the Cor e Area Initiatives was to allo w the citizens of the core area of Winnipeg to have a say in what would happen to their area.

As a result of this information, the government appointed a Commission of Inquir y under The Inquir y Act to do wha t should have been done under The Expr opriation Act, and to that end the Government of Manitoba is giving funds to the Logan Com munity Comm ittee in the neighbour hood of approximately $39,000 in order to make meaningful representation to the Comm ission of Inquir y so that the citizens of the area will have the opportu nity of having their say in the plans for that area. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, can the Honour able Minister inform the Ho use whether or not individuals who are being exprop riated are rece iving a form of salary or wages from this fund? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, the grant was made payable to the Logan Aven ue Commun ity Comm ittee, in trust, I believe, and it was up to that group of citizens and their elected officials to spend the money as they saw fit in order to make adeq uate representation to the inquir y. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that apparently there is to be no accounta bility for the funds, can the Minister advise whether or not this grant is being cost-shared with the City of Winnipeg and Federal Government under the Cor e Area Initia tive Program, or is it a uni lateral action on the part of the province? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated earlier in response to the first qu estion, the Province of Mani toba is the implementing ju risdiction with respect to the expropriations on behalf of the three levels of govern ment and as such, the costs of the assistance to the citizens of the area is being charged against the expropriat ion. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister con firm that he refused to al low his Deputy Minister, Mr. Sanders in Ur ban Affairs staf,f to make a pu blic pres entation before the inquir y, and instead has cast all the bur den of making the presentation upon the City

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 of Winnipeg, its administration and its elected officials. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, in response to the qu es tion, I made representation as the first person to the Comm ission of Inquir y last Monday evening and made a state ment to the Commis sion of Inqu iry which I am prepared to table for the information of the members opposite. The Deputy Minister of Ur ban Affairs has made a subm ission that has been tabled with the Commi ssion of Inquir y, giving the objectives of the expropria ting auth ority and I am prepared to table a copy of that for the members opposite and for the House.

The Deput y Minister of Ur ban Affairs on behalf of the Province of Manitoba will be making representations to the Comm ission of Inquiry; I believe, it may be as early as tonigh t, it was schedu led for Tuesday night but he was not able to appear because of other witnesses. The City of Winnipeg was asked by the Comm ission of Inquir y to be the first agency to provide information to the Commis sion of Inquir y and the Dep uty Minister of Ur ban Affairs and the Govern ment of Manitoba be the second party to provide information to the Commi ssion of Inquir y.

I have indicated in my presentation to the Comm is sioner that the province is prepared to co-operate in any fas hion as need be and as requ ested by the Com mission inquir y, in order to carry out her work to bring recommendations for it to the Province of Manitoba which will be discus sed with the other two levels of government once they are made. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister advise this Hous e how he hopes to attract private sector to not only the Logan area development , to the whole Core Area Program when he has undermi ned its whole cred ibil ity on its first major project by abandon ing the whol e operation to the City of Winnipeg? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Speaker, the Core Area Initiative Agreement as I under stand it, is to provide for major renewal of the core area of the City of Winnipeg, to attract new industries, to present a better climate for citizens to work and to live in the core area of Win nipeg, and we are certainly co-operating with all levels of government to achieve those aims. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise the House when he will find the time to meet with the Mayor and Mr. Axworthy to appoint a general man ager so that the plan can get under way? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Speaker, I am able and willing to meet with the Mayor and the Federal Minister at any time. I have met with them on a continual basis at least once a week since assu ming office. I met with the Mayor and a representative of the Minister a week ago last Friday, and spent some 10 hour s interviewing candida tes for the Core Area Manager outside of the time I had to come back into the Hous e.

I then again met with the Mayor and a representative of the Federal Government last Monday to review the appl icants again for the core area manager, and I have agreed again, on request of the Mayor, to meet next Friday I belie ve, to again review the Core Area Manager. I am prepared to meet at any time to select a Cor e Area Manager. Mr. Speaker. 113 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for La Verendrye: MR. ROBERT (BOB) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I dir ect my que stion to the First Minister and would ask the Minister to inform the Hous e whether or not his Legisla tive Assistant is act ing on behalf of some of the people in the Logan area expropriation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY, Premier, (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I understand that Mr. Corrin is, in his legal capacity, acting on behalf of some of the property owners in the Logan Ind ustrial Park area. MR. BAN MAN: A qu estion, Mr. Speaker, to the Minis ter of Ur ban Affairs.

I wonder if the Minister cou ld inform the House whether or not the Premier's Legis lative Assistant has access to files in his Department? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Ur ban Affairs. MR. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. BAN MAN: Mr. Speaker, in light of the Minister of Government Services absence, who is responsible in the Manitoba Government with regard to land acq uis tion, I wonder if the First Minister could inform the Hous e whether or not his Legislative Assistant has access to files with in the Department of Government Services, namely, the Land Acqu istion Branch? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct a que stion to the Honou ra ble Minister of Natu ral Resou rces. It has been brough t to light today, by senior members of his staff, that significant poaching and bootleg trad ing and sel ling of commercial fish is taking place in the province, and my di rect qu estion to the Honour able Minister is - the report referred to this morning was a specific report - would it be his intention to make that report public? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Natural Resou rces. HON. ALVIN H. MACKLING, Minister of Natural Resource (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I understand the poaching of fish was going on dur ing the term of the previous ad ministration and that some investigation has been made of this and the investigation is ongoing. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, let me then assure the hon our able member that poaching of game and the illegal sale of fish has been going on since game have been caught and since fish have been caught in this pro vince.

It's a que stion of its significance and what this Minister, who is now responsible, is doing about it.

The qu estion is, will the report that has been referred to in the media be made public? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I thought if the ho n our able member was listening he would have heard my answer. I said the investigation is ongoing and at this stage the report will not be made public. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I did not get the answer. I was asking about whether a report, whene ver it is available, will it be made publi c, Mr. Speaker? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, ther e's no que stion that once the investigation has been concluded and we decide whether or not either criminal proceed ings are warranted, or whatever, then the report would be made public. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honour able Min ister for that answer. Mr.

Speaker, would he perhaps also ass ure the many hundr eds of thousands of serious and ded icated Manitoba ns, who are con cerned about the welfare of the game, that he will not use his influence, as he sug gested it might have been used on another occasion in the early 70s when cattle rustling was a particular problem to the cattlemen, and he espoused that rather informal and unique pol icy that perhaps the first one should be on the ho use; would he indicate some supp ort for his law enforce ment officers, game wardens, that he intends to use his office in a diligent, responsible manner in red ucing the amount of poaching that is going on in Manitoba?

MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I like the tone of the honour able member's qu estion. He wants to draw some fire and I ch oose not to lower myself to the level in which he asked the qu estion. I wou ld ju st like to indicate to the House -(I nterjection)- You know, I was always told by people that good things come in small packages and if we want to compare stature I certainly would not draw any reference to the Leader of the Opposition but I wou ld think that your remarks might be better directed towards your Leader.

However, in answer to your qu estion, certainly ther e was as much rustling took place under my hon ourable friend opposite as ever went on in Manitoba before, and we are still concerned with that issue and I hope that we'll have even greater su ccess in add ress ing that problem than my honour able friends did. MR. ENNS: I have no fu rther que stions but I rise on a matter of personal privilege. I appeal to you, what hair shir t, wha t sack of ashen clothes do I have to don before I can ask simple qu estions of this Ho use with out being accused of being mean and dirty and nasty.

I'm honestly and genui nely trying to be a Mr. Nice Gu y for a change and I need some co-operation. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I do ub t the honour able member had a matter of privile ge for the Hous e. The Honour able Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Thank ·y ou, Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Minister of Educ ation.

I wonder if the Minister could confirm that the increase of $46.5 milli on she annou nced yesterday, in her Edu- 11 4 cation Finance Program, was only the amount required by Statute under the legislation and regu lations of the Educ ation Support Program passed by the previous Provincial Government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Edu cation. HON. MAUREEN HEMPHILL, Minister of Education (Logan): I am gl ad to be able to inform the House that the $469 million annou nced that we have put in an additional $12.2 million other than that req ui red under the leg islation that they brou ght into being.

We did tha t for the purpose of meeting the deficiencie s that were in place with the existi ng program, and that was the ineq uities and the disparities caused by disadvan taged Divisions. We bro ugh t in a special program; we put in extra money. MR. FILMON: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister can inform us whether or not a portion of the $1 2.4 milli on in su pplemental grants, which she's ju st referred to, is derived from the Found ation Levy por tion of the property taxes throughout the province? MRS.

HEMPHILL: A portion of the money, the deriva tion of the $1 2.2 million, is coming from the Ed ucation Support Levy, Mr. Speaker. MR. FILMON: So, Mr. Speaker, it's not really $1 2.4 milli on additional of direct provincial funding then. Well, in tha t case, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister indi cate whether or not it is her intention to increase the Foun dation Levy mill rates througho ut the Province this year? MRS.

HEMPHILL: It has not been finally determined and, the information that he is asking for, the Publi c Schools Fina nce Board will be communicating with the municipal ities by the March 15 th dead line and he will have that information at that time. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder, in view of the fact that last year only 5 out of the 57 school divisions in the province were req uired to have an incr ease in their Special Property Tax Mill Rate for school pur poses, how many school divisions does the Minister expect will have an increase in property tax mill rates as a result of her new program? MRS.

HEMPHILL: That information is not available since the bud gets have not been finali zed yet by the School Divisions, so that information will be coming out in a week or two also. Wha t I can tell you is that we are absolutely certain th at the impact of the new pro gram money that we have put into place is going to reduce the mill rate impact on the most needy divisions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norb ert. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Educ a tion, I wonder if she could inform me whether or not she is satisfied that the Consumer Price Index formula used to calcu late the incr ease in educ ation financing

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 which she annou nced yesterday accu rately reflects the increase in operating costs at schools which she estimated range from some $2, 10 0 per pupil to $3,200 per pupil. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I do not bel ieve that the Consumer Price Index alone is an adeq uate amount of money to make up for the increased cost. I will say though that the figur e we are using for the Consu mer Price Index is the Canadian figur e, not the Manitoba figur e, and that gives them an additional 2 percent there, so we are giving additional leeway ther e.

But apart from that we are recognizing that it does not qui te make up for all of their increased costs, and we have increased the existing grants in areas where we have been told the needs are the greatest.

And this information came from sup erintendents, from school tru stees, from principals; everybody agreed to the same thing: they needed increased money in transportation, they needed increased money for books and because the needs at the individual school divisions vary, we increased the basic operat ing grant $1 0.000, which means for every additional 50 students they have, they get an additional $1 0,000.00. That the y can apply to the areas where the needs are the greatest. It's a four-po int package, Mr.

Speaker, and it's the combi nation of the Consumer Pr ice Index, the increases on the existi ng components with in the pro gram, the additiona l money put into the hands of the school divisions that need it the most through the supp lement program, and the money that is going in to help th ose also who need help the most - small schools - that gives us the package that is going to give them the help that they need. MR. MERCIER: I thank the Minister very much, Mr. Speaker, for that thorough answer.

Could she inform the House whether or not the increases in education financing includ e any increases in the per-stude nt grant for independent schools? MRS. HEMPHILL: No, it will not, Mr. Speaker. MR. MERCIER: I have one fur ther supp lemental qu estion, Mr. Speaker, which I al most hesitate to ask in view of the applause that the previous answer received on the other side of the Hous e. However, I would ask the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, whether she is prepared to give an und ertaking to the House to review the funding of independent schools in order to provide a fair increase in the per-student grant to them and to review putting the whole funding of indepen dent schools also on a formula basis which would reflect the increase in cost of living. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the House that, as you have probably heard, we are under taking a major educ ational finance review and all components of ed ucat ion finance will be consi dered dur ing that review. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Portage la Prairie .

MR. LLOYD HYDE (Portage la Prairie): Thank you, 115 Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion to the Minister of Commu nity Services and Corrections. Notwithstand ing the Minister's comments yesterday with respect to the proposed recreational swimming complex at the Manitoba School for Retardates in Portage la Prairie, can the Minister assure this Hous e that no decision has been made up to this point to alter the design of that project? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yester day the entire matter is under review so that should give the honour able member the answer to this que s tion as well. MR.

HYDE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do n't know whether that does give me the answer that I'm looking for. However, I have a su pplementary que stion to the same Minister. Can the Minister tell this Hous e whether any officials or building contractors in Portage have been advised by his department or by Government Services that the design is to be chan ged? MR. EVANS: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I think the preced ing answer should also apply but let me take this matter as notice -(I nterjection)- the member asked some details and I -(I nterjection)- would sugge st that I'll take this as notice and advise the member. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Ga rry. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my que s tion is to the Honour able Minister of Commu nity Ser vices and Corrections. Could the Minister tell this House what the average waiting time is for prospec tive adoptive parents in Manitoba to receive a child for adoption? Would it be about two years? MR. EVANS: Well, agai n, Mr. Speaker, to answer the honour able member precisely, I'd have to check into that matter and, indeed, I will. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

Given the fact that if the Minister checks his records, I think he will confirm that it's roug hly in the neighbou rhoo d of 24 months or slig htly more than 24 months, and would the Minister also confirm that the waiting list for adop tion is fairly extensive in the province? Would it be fair to say that the waiting list comprised of prospective adoptive parents is su bstantial? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have a suspicion that the Honour able Member for Fort Ga rry has a fairly good feel for this particular sub ject havi ng been previously responsible in this particular area.

But again I will take that as notice and assure myself and the members of the House of the facts. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Minis ter's efforts in this respect but in view of the fact that there's no specific answer at the moment, and pro ceed ing on the basis that the waiting list is su bstantial and I think that investigation will bear that out, can the Minister of Commu nity Services and Corrections advise this Hous e why it is that the provincial Child Welfare Service is promoting the export of parentless

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 Manitoba Native chil dren out of province and out of state over the prospective adoptive parents who are asse mbled on the waiting list and desirous of adopt ing Manitoba childr en, regardless of the fact that some of these are childr en who could be put in the category of special-needs childr en. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I can advise the honour able member that the procedu res followed by the appropriate officials in the Depart ment of Communi ty Services are virtual ly the same, thus far at least. as those foll owed when the honour able members oppo site were the Government of Manitoba. There's really been no change in these procedures. With regard to the problem that the member al lu ded to, the que stion of chil dren being placed for adoption out of the Provi nce of Manitoba, I can advise that there is a lengthy process that is undertaken.

A very great effort is made, I'm advi sed, to place people in homes of Manitobans and, fa iling that, in other homes in the rest of Ca nada; the very last resort, as I belie ve the Honour able Member for Fort Ga rry wou ld appreciate, the very last resort is a placement in a home outside of the count ry. I migh t add that the people that are placed outside of Manitoba are often in group s of two or thr ee; they're childr en that come from broken homes and are often groups of two or three, some times four childr en.

Very often they have addition al problems such as physical problems , perhaps prob lems of mental retardat ion, other difficulties. It's only when they cannot be pla ced anywh ere in Manitoba or where ther e's no su itable home in the rest of Cana da, I'm advised, that then a home outside of Canada is considered . MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, is the Honour able Minister saying that the several dozen Manitoba Indian and Metis childr en tha t were exported to a private adoption agency in New Orleans in the cou rse of the past year were all childr en that could not be placed in Manitoba homes; that had special needs that could not be acco mmoda ted in Ma nitob a? That appears to be what he is saying in his answer. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker. we are looking at the whole procedu re. I repeat. The proced ur e foll owed, as I und erstand it, it's the same one that's been fol lowed for some time.

I might remind the honour able member that var ious efforts are made to advise people in Mani toba of childr en that are available for adoption; if the particular agency can not find a home with in its own resources the child is listed in the Manitoba Adoption Bul letin which is pub lished by the Chil d Welfare Directorate twice a month.

I might also add th at if this is unsuccess ful then, throu gh the cou rtesy of the newspapers of Manitoba, an ad is placed with no charge it's called A Child Who Waits - which has wide circu lation througho ut the province, again advis ing Manitobans of the avai labili ty of certain childr en. I might add that this information is made available to various reserves including the Dacotah-Ojibway Child and Fam ily Service Agency and the South east Tribal Council. In other words, ther e's a large extensive effort made. I repeat this is a proced ure that has been in practice for some years. 116 MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister res cind or has the Minister rescinded a letter from a Mr. Richar d Zeilinger of the Un ited States soliciting Mani toba Native childr en, which is not in conformity with practice in previous years but appears to be reflective or representative of a somewhat new approach and a somewhat new policy, has the Minister rescinde d that letter which appeared in the Manitoba Adoption Bul letin, or will he rescind that letter and ensur e that social service agenc ies in this province are not soli cited by means of that letter to transfer Manitoba childr en to points in the Un ited States?

MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not qui te sur e whether the honour able member's sugge stion is one that is appropriate. I don't know exactly what he means by rescinding but I would like to repeat that we're review ing the matter and when a policy decision is made it will be annou nced in due cour se. MR. SHERMAN: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister un dertake to advise those social service agencies in the Province of Manitoba - and he's got a list of them - who receive the Manitoba Adoption Bul letin and who got a bul letin that contained a letter from an agenc y in the United States urging them to make avai labl e Ma nitoba Nati ve childr en for adoption through that agenc y in the Un ited States, will the Minister contact those social services agencies and simply tell them that that letter is not consistent with the policy of his department and that it is to be ignored? MR.

EVANS: As I said, we're looking into the matter and we will make a decision on this in due cour se. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Thompson. MR. STEVE ASHTON (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a qu estion for the Minister of Energy and Mines. My que stion is in regard to the review of the proposed aluminum smelter which has been undertaken between the Province of Manitoba and Alcan. I'm ju st wonder ing if the qu estion of location will be raised in that review? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. WILSON PARASIUK, Minister of Energy and Mines (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, the joint review is under way and the que stion of site selection is one of the matters being looked into. MR. ASHTON: A suppl ementary, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that Thompson has a nu mber of eco nomic, geographical and environmental advantages as a possible site for indus try such as aluminum smel ters; in view of the fact that we have accessed land water of Hydr o and plenty of space in the Ci ty of Thompson, I was wondering if the minister could indi cate whether the City of Thompson will be one of the locations which will be raised in the discus sions with Alcan Aluminum?

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, we are going to be ask ing Al can to tell us about all the sites they have looked at and we are going to be as king them, as well. to look at a numb er of sites which we're asking people within the various departments of Manitoba to come out with as possible sites for an aluminum smelter, which would damp en any possible environmental impacts and I would assume that in that cour se Thompson would be one of the sites that is being put forward for consideration and discussion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Swan River. MR.

DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): I have a que s tion to the Minister of Natu ral Resour ces. Recently I have received a numb er of enqui ries from people west of The Pas indicating the re-occur ring dead fish prob lem in the Birch River-Bracken Dam-C arrot River areas and I think members who were in the House last year will recall that the Member for The Pas had brought this que stion up a nu mber of times last year, I'm wondering if the Minister can advise as to wha t information he has with respect to this problem and what his staff are doing about it? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Natur al Resou rces.

MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker. that's the second fishy que stion from across the way and I do n't think the y're fishing in troubled waters because those waters have existed for some time. I don' t think ther e's been any change brough t about by my staff in any arrange ments in respect to that syste m. However, if the hon our able member is su gges ting that the system that they had under their adm inistration lacks something I will certainly look into it. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I don' t think that the Minister got the point of my que stion.

I have asked the Minister to report to the House if, in fact, there is a lot of dead fish as a result of going up the Birch River and getting trapped in some of the smaller creeks and rivers in the Saskram area. This apparently has hap pened a nu mber of years in the past, is it in fact aCtu ally happening at the present time, how bad is it and what is his staff doing about it? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I have been getting a lot of gratuitous advice from tha t side of the Hous e but I would like to inform the House that that qu estion had alr eady been put to me by the Honour able Member for The Pas and I indicated to him that I would look into that matter and I will inform the Hou se. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you very much for that answer. I was not aware tha t qu estion had been brou gh t up. I would like to di rect a qu estion to the Minister of No rthern Affairs.

I was pleased to hear him remark yesterday that negotiations were going on very well in the new Northlands Agreement between the federal people and the provincial people. I wonder if he can advise the House as to when the signing of that new agreement can take place. 117 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of No rthern Affairs. MR. COWAN: I wou ld like to thank the member for that qu estion.

It is a matter of great interest to all persons who are concerned with northern develop ment and for that reason I have met with the Honour able Minister Pierre De Bane and the Honour able Min ister Herb Gray over the past nu mber of months for the pu rpose of discussi ng the continuation of the No rthl ands Agreement. As a result of ongoing consul tation which has taken place througho ut the province and as a result of those meetings, jus t recently the Honour able Mr.

Gray and myself directed our respec tive staff to beg in active and intensive negotiations for the pu rpose of bringing that agreement forward for signing with the least possible disrup tion in existing services and ongoing programs under the No rth lands Ag reemnent. So I can indicate to the member at this time that those negotiations are proceed ing and I will be providing further information to the Hous e as those negotiations continue along their way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.

GOURLAY: I would like to thank the Minister for that answer, we wou ld be very interested in knowing a specific date when that will be available. A fu rther que stion with respect to the Special ARDA Agree ment which, I bel ieve, will be expiri ng the end of this March, I'm wondering if the Minister can inform the Hous e as to wha t negotiations are going on with respect to a new Special ARDA Agreement at this time? MR.

COWAN: Well, to provide a more specific answer which the Member for Turtle Mountain requested from his seat, in respect to the No rth lands Agreement, I can only indicate to him that the No rthlands Ag ree ment will be signed much sooner as a result of the new government being in place than if the old government had been in place. In respect to the Special ARDA negotiatio ns, I am pleased to inform members of the House that negotia tions have proceeded very well and I would hope to be able to provide a specific answer in regard to when that agreement will be signed in the very near futur e to the member. MR.

GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister of Northern Affiars could indicate whether the new agreement will allow Special ARDA fund s to be used for capital con struction or improvements on fish plants in the north? MR. COWAN: As the member, Mr.

Speaker, is aware the Special AROA Agreement has been negotiated over the past few months and , as part of that process. ther e has been a Special ARDA Comm ittee which has been developed and has been meeting; that Special ARDA committee has add ressed that issue and made certain recommendations to those parties involved in the negotiations and I can assure the member that those recommendations have been taken into du e consideration and I wou ld expect to be able to provide him with the specific details as to what will be con tained in that agreement when we. in fact, are able to

table that agreement. However, I bel ieve it would be inappropria te, on my part at this ti me, to discuss the specific deta ils without al lowing the parties most interested and involved in the negotiations an oppor tun ity to review them in detail. So, in shor t, I can answer him that I would not rule out that possibility and I would hope to be able to discuss the matter in more deta il with him and others I know who are inter ested in that Special ARDA Agre ement and negotia tions which are ongoing in the very near futur e. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Arth ur . MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, I have a que stion for the First Minister. In view of the fact that the First Minister promised the agricu ltural people of the Province of Manitoba a Beef Income Assu rance Program or a supp ort program, immediate relief to their indus try prior to the election last fall, I wonder if he could indicate to the farm community and the people of Manitoba when that annou ncement will be made. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, this government has been most concerned in respect to the state of the beef industry in the Provi nce of Manitoba and it is for that reason that my Minister of Agricu ltur e has been meeting on a continuous basis with various beef pro du cer organ izations and beef producers in Manitoba and he has been working with them in order to bring forth proposals and plans in order to ensur e that there is a level of assistance provincially.

At the same time that he has been doing that he has been making represe ntations to Ottawa for a Beef Stabil ization Program and is still awaiti ng some response from Ottawa as he works on the provincial front as well. Specifically, my Minister of Agricultur e will be making I'm sur e in the not too di stant futur e further annou ncements to this. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I was somewhat con cerned.

I thought probably, in view of the fact that the First Minister had committed himself, and in fact I could ask him the qu estion; what is his definition of immedia tely, because there is a press report out, prior to the election, tha t in fact there would not be any dra gging of the feet but he wou ld, in fact, introduce a program immedia tely. Is that sometime in the next month or two months or on until a lot more beef produ cers have disappeared off the scene as far as production of beef is concerned. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, let me assure the hon our able member that our definition of immediately is muc h less time spacewise than indeed was the defi ni tion of immediately under the previous govern ment. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. The time for Oral Qu estions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed Motion by the Hon our able Me mber for The Pas and the proposed 4 March, 19 82 118 Amend ment by the Honour able Leader of the Opposition. The Honour able Minister of Nor thern Affa irs has five minutes. MR. COWAN: You will recall, Mr.

Speaker, that as I was concl uding my remarks yesterday afternoon I had indicated to the Member for Emerson that I would be providing more detail to him in respect to his que s tion on the possible location of a waste disposal site in Kitson Cou nty by the Minnesota Government. I can inform him at this time that the Minnesota Govern ment has formed a Minnesota Waste Manage ment Board as a result of their Waste Management Act of 19 80, and the pu rpose of that Board is to develop a hazardous waste management plan for that State. They have under taken two specific objectives in that regard.

The first is to locate a site for a landfill opera tion, and the second is to locate a site for a chem ical processing pla nt. As a result of that process they have selected 20 candidate sites throughout the state. One is in Kitson Coun ty and nine are in the Red River drainage basin area, so those are the ones with which this Provincial Government and the people of this province are most concerned.

I can inform him that the one that is being suggested for the Kitson Cou nty site is a landf ill operation only, and is not the chemic al processing plant, as well as, that being the case in respect to the others in the Red River drainage basin. There is no plan for the chem ical processing plant in the Red River drainage basin area at this time. Even although that does alla y fears somewhat, the Provincial Government has been in contact with Mr.

Rob ert Dunn who is Chai rperson of the Minnesota Waste Manag ement Board over the past nu mber of months and, as a result of that, ther e was a meeting held in mid-December in Manitoba between represen tatives of the Waste Management Board - Mr. Dunn himself being present - and environmental manage ment division staff. Accord ing to corres pondence which Mr.

Dunn forwarded to the First Minister, after that meeting it was sug gested that meeting resulted in protracted and productive discussions, so I can assure the Member for Emer son that we have discus sed this in detail, and we have advised the Minnesota Waste Management Board of our concerns. We have been given a commitment as a result of that meeting that there will be continued close communication with Manitoba's environmental autho rites in respect to the operation or the possible location of that plant.

I hope that information is of some val ue to Member for Emerson, and if he should have fur ther que stions, I would invite him to either give me a call or to maybe step over after my speech and I can go over some of the details with him if he's interested. The reason I welcome that interest on the part of the Member for Emerson, on the part of all the members in the Cham bers, is that we, too, are going to be faced with that sort of a process in the near futu re, because there are hazard ous wastes.

There are more and more haz ardous wastes being generated, and as a Provin cial Govern ment, we are going to have to develop a comprehensive hazardous waste management plan. So we are going to look forward not only to the inter est and respect of the Kitson Cou nty proposal but, as

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 well, in respect to any hazardous waste management plans which we may develop. Now I want to give this commitment at this time, because this is an extremely important area and an area of great concern to many Manitobans.

That commitment is we will cond uct that program, that process, in the open and with an ongoing and continu ing dialogue with the people of this province to ensur e that their concerns are taken into consideration, and to ensur e that, in fact, the development of that plan will be done so in the best interests of not only the whole province but in the best interests of those indi vidual s who may be located in close proxim ity, if that is the case, of any such hazardous waste management site. So that is an issue that was addr essed in the Throne Speech and one which I wanted to clarify at this time.

There were other issue s respecting acid rain and some other environmental concerns which we will address over the next few months and, indeed, over the next few years. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for this opportuni ty to have provided that bit of information to the Member for Emerson. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Gl adstone. MRS. CHARLOTTE OLESON (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, thank you for the privilege of add ressing this Assembly. I would, before commencing my remarks, like to congratu late you, Mr.

Speaker, on your appointment, and I wou ld also to congratu late all the Members of this House from both sides on their elec tion to this Assembly. At this time, I would also like to pay tribut e to Mr. Jim Ferg uson, the former Member for Gl adstone , for his faith ful representation in this House. He left the constitue ncy in good order I am happy to say, and it will not be easy to fill his shoes. In th is, my initial add ress to this House I will not only be introd ucing myself to you, but I will also be intro ducing to you the Co nstituency of Gla dsone as it now stands after redistri bution.

Of myself, I will say little, except I bring to this House a sincere desire to serve the people of Gl ad stone Co nstituency and the people of Manitoba. If my desire to serve my constituents brings me into conflict with the present Government, so be it. The Co nstituency of Gl adstone as it now stands, emcompasses most of the old constituenc y plus part of Ro ck Lake, Sour is-Killa rney and Portage.

With these new bound aries, the constitue ncy covers a large expanse of farmland, parkland, towns, villages and hamle ts, beginning in the centre of southern Manitoba and stretchin g north to Lang ruth on the shor es of Lake Manitoba. It covers seven municipali ties, and takes in the major trading centres of the Town of Gla dso ne, the Vil lage of MacGregor , the Town of Carbe rry, the Vill age of Glenb oro and the Vil lage of Treherne, as well as numerous unincorpo rated centres. Therefore I am vitally interested in small communities and their growth and development.

The constitue ncy inclu des a wide range of soil types su itable for growing a wide variety of crops and su itable for livestock operations of considerable size and variety. Therefore, I am vitally interested in grain 119 prices, the livestock industry, the Cr ow rate and other matters pertaining, in fact, all matters pertaining to agricult ure. Strad dlling the southern part of the constitue ncy is a large tract of so-calle d marginal land which contains the Spruce Woods Provincial Forest and the Spruce Woods Provincial Park.

One of the citizens who worked very hard to promote the creation of that park often remarks that there is no marginal land. All land is good for something. This park has certainl y proved him right , as citizens from the immediate area and from all parts of Manitoba and beyond enjoy camping, desert hiking and beach facilit ies in the summe r, and skiing, snowmobiling, hiking, skating and curling facilities in the winter. How wise we Manitobans are, now that we have decide d to enjoy Manitoba winters, not merely endur e them. This park has truly beco me one of the playg rounds of Manitoba.

Properly main tained and hus banded, this frag ile, sandy so-called marg inal land can serve us well for many, many decades to come. Fur ther to the north in what is probably the geogr a phic centre of the constitue ncy, is the Manitoba Agri cultur al Museum at Austin. This large and expan ding fac ility is a fitting tribute to the pioneers who buil t this fine province, who worked the land and built the agri cultur e heritage to what it is today. If you wish to catch the spirit of early Manitoba, be sur e to attend the Threshe rmen's Reunion held annu ally at the museum.

Last year approximately 40,000 people attended the reun ion and a fur ther 4,000 visited the museum dur ing the year. The Board of Directors of this fine facility are to be congratu lated for their work in preserving the history of Manitoba. Aus tin, of cou rse, is not alone in working to pre serve the history of Manitoba. Most of the centres in the constituency have or are planning to create muse ums and compile books of local history to keep per manent records of their past. Many of the communi ties in the constituenc y have celebr ated or about to celebr ate their 10 0th birthda ys.

The Town of Gl ad stone recently held a very suc cessful centennial con cert and dance to kick off their centennial celebr a tions for this year. Other communi ties such as Rathwell, Holla nd, Carberry and McGregor are bus y planning homecoming weeks and various other events to celeb rate the fact that their commu nity is 10 0 years old this year or next, a wonderful opportun ity to reflect on the past as we look forward to the futu re.

In the last couple of months I've had the privilege of attending several Agricu ltu ral Society meetings throughout the constituency, at which Centur y Farm Awards were presented. These have been very inter esting evenings. It has been fascinating to hear the history of some of the province's farms and to learn of the hard work that went into their creation. Truly our pioneers were of sturdy stock, or the farms and com mun ities we know today would not be in existence. Sturdy stock it took to found this province and to bring it to the produ ctivity of today.

The stu rdiness of us, their heirs, is going to be sorely tried in the months and the years to come. As I listened with interest to the Throne Speech read by Her Honour The Lieutena nt-Governor last Thurs day, it occu rred to me that perhaps the farmers of Manitoba should give up planting wheat, corn, sun-

flowers and such things, and perhaps they should plant money trees instead. That is what it's going to take to finance the intentions of the present govern ment. We shall await with interest, the Budg et, which will tell us ju st how many money trees to plant and how much money we will have to har vest to finance the proposed programs. In times when even the Leader of our Federal Gov ernment is tel ling us to slow down our spending, it seems rather imprudent to introd uce programs which will cost the taxpayers even more money than they cu rrently cannot afford.

I was disappointed to hear in the Throne Speech so much reference to that which the government intends to become in volved in. To me, it said nothing to the investor wishing to invest in busine ss in Manitoba, and it said noth ing to the entrepreneur wishing to expand a small busi ness or manufac turing firm. It said nothing about real jobs within our communi ties throug hout the province. It spoke of government doing for the people, that which the people with some initiative would very much like to do for the mselves.

Give us the climate and we' ll provid e the initiative to continue the well-bei ng of this great province. Long term, meaningful jo bs are what we want for our young people and others in all parts of Manitoba, not patch work shor t-term fillers, which bring only false hope. Much has been made of the fact that there are seven women in this Legisla tu re. It seems extremely sad that there should be need to be pleased when there are 7 out of 57 - not a particu larly great record. One is forced to wonder what we women have been doing since we gai ned the right to be here.

That, we all know, is a long story and a story that I will not go into at this time. The election of a woman is not new to the Co nsti tue ncy of Gla dst one. Part of the southern area of the constitue ncy was very ably represented at one time by Thelma Forbes, a former speaker of this Hous e. Her able represe ntation of the area certainly hel ped me as I campaig ned in that part of the constituenc y. Mrs. Car olyn Morrison also ably represented the Rur al Cons tituenc y of Pembina in the '60s. In fact, the Con servatives have been represented by women at var ious times and from various areas over the years.

In closing I'd like to than k th e Constitue ncy of Gla d stone for electi ng me and I will certainly try to be worthy of the trus t they have placed in me. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Spring field. MR. ANDY ANSTETT (Springfield): -(l nterjection) Mr. Speaker, with respect to the interje ction from the other side, I'd like to start by saying I'm very happy to be back here, and very happy to be back here in a very different role. It gives me some pleasure to be here in that role. I realize, Mr.

Speaker, that one of the members opposite may not sh are that happi ness but I'm sur e that you, as Speaker, know that I respect the office of the Speaker and the institution tha t this Ho use is. I would like to beg in by indicating my respect for you, and the choic e of this Hous e to place you in the Speaker's Chair , because havi ng worked with you for many years and through many Sessions, I came to respect you as a man who not only knew the ru les, but had a high respect for th e parliament , the institution 12 0 that this assembly is, someone who will do his best to gu ide us in our delib erations.

I trust, Sir, that despite my former career, I know th at I will err and sometimes not always do tho se thi ngs that you would expect from me and I trus t, Sir, that you will give me the gu ida nce that I will deserve and I will give you my promise now, tha t I will do my best to heed that and always speak and act in the best interests of this Assembly and of its trad itions. I would like also, Sir, to acknowl edge the fact that serving this Assembly and this province, we have, for the first time in this province's history, a female Lieutentant-Governor.

I think that says something for the comment the Member for Gl adsto ne just made about the progress of women in this province, and the fact that we no lo nger have to make special note of the fact that there are seven members or 20 members in this House. But certainly, Manitoba is only the second province in Canada to have a woman as Lieutenant Governor , and I not only welcome her but I wish her well in her new role. To date she has not only been exe mplary, but she has sho wn a great deal of abil ity and intel ligence in addres sing that job. I wou ld like also, Mr.

Speaker, to congratu late the new Sergeant-at-Arms and the staff of the Assembly for the tremendous way in which they serve the members here. I know that the job of serving members in this House cannot always be an easy one, so I would like to assure the members of the staff that we have their confidence as members and show some respect for the service that they provide to us. Mr. Speaker, I consider it a great personal honour to serve this House.

Although I've served it in the past in a very different role, I recognize that the role of a member is probably one of the highest honour s that can be bestowed on anyone in the Province of Manit oba. I approach that role with some humi lity and some insecu rity because I know from past experience what it takes, and the effort that must go into being a member on either side of the House, in any of the variety of roles in which members are called upon to serve. I know that all other members approach the task with basica lly the same perspective.

With regard once again, to the que stion of the makeup of the present Legislatur e, I would like to sugge st to the Member for Gla dstone that I, too, share her concern that ther e are so few women in this Legislatur e, and I would like to su ggest to her that I would sup port her in any efforts in which she intends to engage to ensur e that in the next Legisla tur e there will be 23 women on tha t side of the House. "There might wel l be 34 on this side," says the Member for Wols eley. I'm not sur e I wou ld welcome that with the same willingn ess that I would welcome 23 on the other side. Mr.

Speaker, the Cons tituenc y of Springfield is his torically one of the oldest constituencies in Manitoba. It dates from the immediate post-confederation period. It covers at the present time, al most 4,000 squar e miles, five different municipalities, four different school divisions and a large area of pro vincial forest and approxi mately 90 percent of the Wh iteshell Provincial Park. It has been said by many in commenting on the riding in the past that in many ways it is a microcosm of the province. It has ur ban areas close to the city, it has a large farming component, many small towns and villages.

It also has a resou rce-based extract ion

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 area and a tour ist indus try in the eastern areas. So Springfield in some ways al lows a member to have a perspective on the province which is not available to those who unfortunately, have the opportunity to represent a riding which is much more homogeneous. It is very different than a straight ur ban riding, or a completely rural riding, or a northern riding. On the other hand it means that one must seek to represent all tho se various interests, and that too can be an impossible task.

I hope over the next four years to do my best to represent all the constitue nts in my constituenc y, to speak for them with a voice based upon my own expe rience and my knowledge of their concerns by com mun icating with them, being available to them, and trying to understand their problems and their interest. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am sur e as the member for Bur rows said when he seconded this motion in reply to the Add ress from the Throne, is the objective of all members. But I think at the same time, we must view our role here as that also of a representative.

We can't perceive ou rselves strictly as someone who re sponds to all of the interests in our constituency, because they will be divergent in every constituency, not ju st a widely diverse one. But you will have many interests cal ling upon you as I have on me, and we will have to make decisions and vote and speak in terms of the con science we have, rather than pu rely responding to the views of our constituents. When I hear the deba te in response to the Throne Speech, Mr.

Speaker, it reminds me of an old story which was told in this House many years ago, I bel ieve first by the member for Morris, although the past member for lnkster may lay prior clai m. It involves the story of thr ee envel opes. I am sur e most of the members in the House have heard the story, but I wou ld like to tell it again probably with near as much flair or abil ity as tho se who told it before. But I would like to tell it because it has something to say about the kind of Throne Speech Debate in which we have engaged in this Chamb er the last several days.

That's the problem, the Member for Emerson, that the enve lopes appear to be opened in a very funny order, but on the other side of the Hous e. The story goes someth ing like this, and it may well have happ ened to one of our new Ministers on Dece mber 1s t. The Minister of Health may wel l have left th ree envelopes for the Member for St. Boniface.

On top of the envel opes there was a note when the Minister went to his clean, desk and on tho se thr ee envelo pes this note said, "When you get in trou ble in your new position and with your new responsibilities, either within your department or in the Hous e when deal ing with the Opposition, I'd like you to open the first envelop e. Then if you get in trouble again and the answer that is provided in the first envelop e does not provide the remedy which you seek and only then - open the second envelope.

Then when all else fails, and neither of those remedies work, no matter how much you switch back and forth between them, you decide that you must find another remedy, open the third envelope." Well, most of you know the story. The new Minister opened the first envelope and it said, "Bl ame the pre vious government." So for some months going on to a 12 1 year, he blame d the previous government for every prob lem he had, and generall y it worked. After awhile it failed, and I am sur e some of our Ministers will encou nter the same situati on.

After awh ile it won't wash any more, you have to accept responsibility for your own actions. Then he opened the second envelope and it said, "B lame the Federal Government," and that works for awhi le. But after that fails, the Minister, in desperation goes back to his office, takes that third envelope from the trus ted drawer where he has had it locked for those several years, opens it up in furious haste, because he is really fru strated with not being able to handle all the opposition he is getting and press criti cism and he finds inside a shor t note which reads, "Prepare thr ee envelopes." My problem, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Opposition appears to have the envelopes this Session. Now, I didn't believe that the Honour able First Minister of this Provi nce left thr ee envel opes for the Lead er of the Opposition; I didn't think he would do that. I didn't think he was such a helpful, compassionate person, but it appears he has. On Monday afternoon I heard the previous First Minister of this province, the Leader of the Opposition, talk about - at great length - the evils of the Schreyer adm inistration.

I sugge sted to the Minister of Mines and Energy that perhaps when he spoke, he should speak about the evils of the Weir admin istration. I wasn't sur e how far back we were prepared to go. -(I nterjection)- The Member for Minnedosa is sensitive that we might enter into a debate on the Weir Administration. For the same reason that a deba te upon that admin istration ho lds no merit for the futur e of Manitoba, reha shing criticisms that are four and five years old of a previous government, holds no futur e for the people of Manitoba.

If we are going to be construc tive and talk about the economy of this province, the direction and the futur e of this province, then we should be looking at that direction and developing new ideas and providing constructive su ggestions and criticisms with that in mind. Cer tainly, tha t's part of the role that we have as backbe nchers to this government, and I am certa in that most of the members opposite pres cribe to that same philosop hy.

So I have to reject out of hand the sugge stion that the only way to provide construc tive opposition and construc tive suggesti on, regardle ss of where we are in this House, is to harp back to old criticisms and old problems . The day of the Throne Speech I received in the mail a copy of a speech made by a former Su nday School teacher of mine, approxi mately 20 years ago he was a Sunday School teacher, the speech was jus t two weeks ago. He's now in a position where copies of his speeches are mailed out to people.

He had something to say which I think is instructive for us in this Throne Speech De bate and in our consideration of where we should be going with the financial and economic affairs of this province. I'm going to quo te at some length but I think it's worthw hile in this case: "It is instructive to recall that Americans and Cana dians do not see eye to eye on the issue of the role of government in the economy. Americans demonstrate a widespread and amazingly persistent ideolog ical commitment to free enterprise. In this context current

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 American economic policy is merely the contempor ary expression of an historic faith in the su periority of a system based on limited government and untram meled free enterprise. "The Canadian approach is, and alwa ys has been, a little different; we are more pragmatic. In part this tendency to look at govern ment involvement on a case-by-case basis derives from the sheer dimensions of some of the challen ges we faced from the building of the railways to the Ja mes Bay project.

"In addition, the importance in our economy of the qu asi-monopol ies like electric utilit ies has jus tified an active role for the state. That role has been broadly accepted by all sectors of society. Such government enterprises as Ontario Hydr o, Canadian National and Al berta Government Telephone are part of the Cana dian social, as well as the economic fabric. The Cana dian experience sugge sts in specific circums tances government in busine ss can be socially and economi cally advantageous.

We have neither the Ame rican's deep-rooted suspicion of gov ernment in busine ss, nor the Marxist blind faith that government ownersh ip is the magic key to a jus t society." The amazing thing about this quo te is it wasn't really made by a Sunday School teacher; it was made by the President of the Mutual Life Assurance Com pany of Canada in his addr ess to sharehol ders in Wate rloo, Ontario 10 days ago.

When he made that add ress what he was recognizing, as the President of one of the most important financial institut ions in this cou ntry, is someth ing that the Leader of the Opposi tion and most of the treasury benches of the last ad ministration of this province failed to recognize; we live in a mixed economy. And those people who fail to recognize that, and ad ministered this province for fou r years, provide d us not with a mixed economy but with a mixed-up economy. That was the legacy they left to us when we formed an ad ministration.

There are some pretty su bstantial differences in the approach that the people of Manitoba can expect from an NOP admin istration compared to the ad ministra tion we had over the last fou r years and, I think, per haps some of the references that were contained in the speech of the Leader of the Op position in reply to the Add ress from the Throne shed some ligh t on the differences in that approach.

Those peo ple who belie ve that the best kind of government that we can have is the absol ute, minimal, least government ava ilable; that the best government is a government that has no busi ness wha tsoever in a mixed economy, assisting busi ness, stimul ating the economy, priming the pump ; are the kinds of people who wou ld argue that when the Pro vince of Manitoba gives the Ci ty of Winnipeg the money they asked for to assist them in meeting their financial obl igations in the coming year, but says a small portion of that must be used to freeze transit rates; that we have now trampled the rights of the Cit y of Winnipeg, com pletely hams trung the rights of the Council to make their own decisions when only a very small portion of their grant has now been made conditional; are those who belie ve that gov ernment has no place in develop ing the economy of our province.

Similarly, tho se who would argue that as part of the grant formula to be provided to the major post secondar y educ ational institutions of our province 12 2 will go one small condition, that condition being that there will be no tuition fee increases in this province in the next academic year, are faced with the same argument again that suddenly academic freedom has been tram pled upon; that the un iversities are being denied the right to admi nister their affairs. Mr.

Speaker, what has trampled the rights of the universities in Manitoba more, the New Democratic party sa ying there shall be no tuition fee increases in the next year or four years of academic spending increases that did not even match 50 percent of the rate of inflation. I don't think there is any que stion.

The freedom of the un iversities to make their own decisions with regard to the admin istration of their programs and their responsibilities has been hamstrung far more by the lack of provincial funding and the lack of a will ing ness, on behalf of the previous admin istration, to pro vide the support that was required. The Honour able Member for Minnedosa has some concern about the natur e of the deba te in this Hous e.

I can only tell him that I will extend to him the same privilege that he has extended to me in commenting freely on his speeches and I must tell him that I con sider it welcome because I think tha t's an important part of the debate in this Hous e, that we can have that kind of exchange .. I also have some concern about the sugg estion from the opposition that the present ad ministration has been scaring capital away - I think that was the phrase that the former Premier used. He talked about this discredited ad ministration of the early '70s having scared capital away and the present government doing the same.

But I ask him, when investment in manufac turing and in virtually every other sector of our economy dur ing the last four years was at record all- time lows, who scared the capital away from this province? That's the que stion that has to be asked and that's the answer this House deser ves. Not ch ivalric tripe. Is that the phrase? Is that the right phr ase? Chiv alric tripe about scari ng away capital when the record lows for private sector capital investment in this province occurred dur ing the last four years. - (Interjec tion)- That's exactly right.

And the Member for Minnedosa knows I'm right or he'd be up to ask a que stion providing the proper statistics if he dou bted it. Mr. Speaker, one of the other problems that we've had to face in the last few days is the su ggestion that the politicization of the Civil Service of Manitoba has continued apace as it did over the last four years. Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I'm not sur e that they adm itted that it was a continuation; I think they sugge sted it was a startup agai n.

For those people who were in the Civil Service of Manitoba dur ing the period of the previous admin istration - and I was one of them for at least part of that time - I can tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that the degree of politicization of the Ci vil Service that was accomp lished under the previous ad ministration, not so much through hiring their own people or putting in place people who they consider ed to be their own, but through direct intimidati on, through the sug gestion that if you're not "fer" us, you're "agin" us denies the basic precept of a free parlia mentary system which the former Premier enun ciated ju st last Monday. He said, and I qu ote him "that the foun dation of our parli amentary system is a neutral civil service." Yet for

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 two-and-a-half years I saw that Civil Service intimi dated by the su gge stion that if you don't agree with us you're "ag in" us. -(I nterjection)- That not only is true , Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of the Member for Minnedosa but I personally experienced it and so did many other civil servants. Mr.

Speaker, as well, there's been some sug ges tions, not only by the Leader of the Opposition but by other members opposite who were formerly on the Treasury Benches of this province, that we should have some concern about the amount of money that's being borrowed overseas - I think the term was in exotic foreign cu rrencies. Mr.

Speaker, I think we should ask the Leader of the Official Opposition to direct that same que stion to the Premier of the prov ince immedia tely to the east of us who have made su bsta ntial borro wings in tho se exotic foreign cur rencies and handle them exactly the same way the present adm inistration is handling them, by acknowl edg ing the fact that we are faced with a foreign cur rency loss. No one que stions that; no one on this side of the Hous e que stions the cu rrency fluctuations have worked to the disadvantage of Manitobans.

However, any Finance Minister worth his salt would be spread ing th ose losses over as long a period as possible in the long term expectation that we can recover some of that loss or at the very least allo w the interest cost per year to be red uced as low as possible. Anyone who sugge sts that we should refinance in No rth American cu rrencies, whether they be U.S. or Canad ian, and accept th at loss is arguin g that we should take our losses immediately and not spread those losses over the long term and possibly regain those dol lars.

The Honour able former Minister of Natu ral Reso ur ces has a problem with that because he recalls that in Jun e of 19 80, I bel ieve June 1 st to be exact, his former Minister of Fina nce, the former Member for Riel, refi nanced a $25 million bond issue in Swiss francs into U.S. cu rrency and cost the people of this province $16 million when he did n't have to. That should be remembered -(I nterjection)- No! I have a problem, Mr.

Speaker, when I hear the Leader of the Opposition and other members opposite - not the Member for Minnedosa because he has not made these su gges tions yet in debate - that the state of the Manitoba economy, which was left to this present admin istra tion by the previous government, is in such sad condi tion that we're going to have to have tax increases. That's what the Member for Turtle Mountain said on February the 24th.

It's quo ted in one of the local newspapers as sugge sting that because of the equali zation problems, because of the large deficit which we have inherited from the previous ad ministration, we could be looking at a deficit as much as $500 million next year and that would be unacceptable, so we wou ld have to have tax increases. Now, Mr. Speaker, I'm havi ng a problem here; I think the Opposition is trying to out snooker us. I think they're trying to sug gest that a very modest spending program - and I don't have the total figu res here - the Member for Lakeside said they wou ldn' t do that.

The Member for Lakeside is probably the fellow who thought it up. They're trying to sugge st that because of some very modest spending increases - I do n't have the total but I'm sur e the Minister of Finance could tell me what the total cost of those spending 123 programs amou nts to - but probably someth ing less than one-fifth or one-qu arter of the projected deficit for next year when we get to the Bu dget stage, we will be represented by a very modest spending program.

The people of Manitoba didn't expect us to spend a lot of money; they knew the mess we were left; they knew that the province promised them four balanced Bu dgets, left them with fou r deficit s including record deficit s. They know, it doesn't take much to figur e out that accumul ative total deficit over four years in excess of $400 million, approaching $500 million will cost the Provi nce of Manitoba at cu rrent interest rates over $75 million ju st to service. Mr.

Speaker, if we did the calculations, I think what we would find is that the former Ministry opposite provided us with a debt obli gation which we must service next year which is greater than the cost of all the new programs we've announc ed in this year's Throne Speech. That's a very interesting observa tion. Mr. Speaker, that's part of the snookering process and I think the people of Mani toba should be aware tha t's part of the oblig ation that we've inherited. The other part of the obl igation relates to a drop that's somewhere in the neighb ou rhood of $16 0 mil lion in federal equal ization payments.

That, too, is going to be a bur den on the people of Manitoba because unli ke the previous government opposite, we are prepared to acknowledge that the revenues of this province must come from the people of this province, and we're not going to make loud noises, bashing the Feds over the head blaming them for every singl e thing tha t we ha ve to do in this pr ovi nce. -(l nterjection)- The Honour able Member for Emerson sugge sts that we should make the rich farmers pay. I'm not sur e that his constituents would appreciate that sug ges tion, but the next time I'm in Emerson I will pass it on to them. Mr.

Speaker, there's no que stion as well that because of the total disastrous economic misman agement of the previous administration and the national economic decl ine that coincided with that, that we've been faced with a very dr amatic de cline in revenues in this province.

So when we're faced with the cost of carrying the previous government's deficit, th e cost of carrying the change s that have been made in the Federal Equal ization Formula which weren't help ed by the fact that you people weren't prepared to co-operate but ju st wanted a Fed bash, and the fact tha t we have initiated some minor programs which were intended to redress some of the grievances which went unattended for four years means that there's going to be either a very large deficit this year or a Provincial Finance Minister looking for new sour ces of revenue.

If you think you' ve out-snookered us by talking about tax increases, you haven't, because everybody out on the street knows that if a govern ment is going to provide the services that they want and that they voted for on November 17 th, it's going to cost money, and if the Federal Government isn't going to pay for it the people of Manitoba will have to. Mr.

Speaker, for the benefit of the Member for Lake side, who I'm sur e knows the facts but would like to see them in the record, last year there were 43 wells drill ed in Manitoba by private companies plus some body from Saskatchewa n, the name escapes me, but I think it has something to do with the govern ment of

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 th at - What did your Leader call it? Pretty little prov ince west of us or something. Out of those 34 wel ls that were drill ed last year, 33 were producing wells, 33 were prod uctive, so when you talk about a Dry Well Program the Member should look at the records from his own Depar tment, or Depar tment for which he was responsible at one time in the past, and find that the records in Manitoba are actually very encoura ging.

In fact, your former Minister of Mines, former Member for Riel, went to great lengths in ju st the last Session praising the results of private expl oration in this pro vince. Now the Member for Lakeside wants to sugge st that the people of Manitoba have no right to par tici pate in that, and I deny that. The people of Manitoba have every right and should participate in the devel opment of the natu ral resources of this province, and we intend to do it. The Member for Minnedosa would like to talk about the Trout Lake Mine. Mr. Speaker, how much time do I have, please? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member has eight minutes remaining. MR. ANSTETT: The Honour able Member for Minne dosa wants to talk about how the previous Con serva tive ad ministration in this province sold or gave away, and I'm not sur e about the exact natur e of it, it was either a bargain basement fire sale or it was a gift, to private concerns, one-half of the interest that the peo ple of Manitoba had in a mine they help ed dis cover. Now how can you defend that? I'd like the Honour able Member for Minnedosa to defend that sellout when he participates in this de bate.

I do n't think it can be defended, I don't think there's any way. The Member for Minnedosa sugge sts that Hu dson Bay Mining and Smelting would not be interested in smelting a high grade ore provided to them. They do it for Sher ritt Gordon, they' ll do it for another company that's prepared to extract that ore. Granges of Sweden would have been qui te happy to be actively involved in the development of that mine. When the Honour able Member for Minnedosa makes his contribution I hope he will provide the facts that show why the people of Manitoba had to be den ied half of their interest in that mine. Mr.

Speaker, part of the philo sophy which pervades on the other side of the Hous e is a philo sophy of growth without control, a philosophy of growth at all costs, because the only way they can avoid the kind of restructu ring and re-distributive forces which must work in our society is to increase the size of the pie.

We've heard that argument before; in fact the former Member for I nkster and the Member for Lakeside used to debate at some length in this Chamb er about the fact that economic gr owth, for its own sake, was the only way to provide to the people of Manitoba the standard of living and the benefits in this society tha t they wanted, and tha t whole objective seems to per vade the way they pursued, in some cases, with very ill advised notions of negotiating practises, four gigantic Mega Projects in this Province. Growth for growths sake; let's make the pie grow and then the benefits will filter down to everyone.

In doing th at and havi ng that philosphy they forgot about the fact that the society has great wealth today and that one of th e biggest 12 4 problems we have is not the creation of wealth but the distribution of wealth, and four years of neglecting that distribution has left on us the bur den of setting some of those matters right in our first term in government, and that is going to be one of the main focuses, and tha t is why you did not see massive spending on social programs in that Throne Speech. So, Mr.

Speaker, I have add ressed myself to some of the concerns that have been expressed by members opposite about what was in the Throne Speech. They may not be entirely happy with my

interpretation of their remarks or of their intent with regard to this speech, or of the su ggestion that they must bear the largest responsibility for the economic position in which this province finds itself. However, I am not alone in expressing that opinion. The people of Mani toba rendered that verdict some thr ee-and-one-half months ago. They expressed the opinion that the economy of this province and the government which had steward ship over that economy were both in pretty rough shape, and they were faced with a government that was prepared to deny that was the case.

They were faced with a gover nment that said, "Everyth ing's rosy." At least we had the integrity to tell the people of Manitoba, not only during the election campaign, but ever since then, that times are tough and that it's going to take a while to set thing s stra ight. I dare say to the Member for Lakeside, had you had the wisdom and the integrity to tel l the people of Manitoba that, you would have had no problem on Novem ber 17 th.

The Member for Transcona said, sh ortly after the Election, the biggest problem with the previous admin istration in this province was that they were not prepared to tell it like it was, and the people of Manitoba expect that from their governments, they deserve to get it, and from this government they will get it for four years, for eigh t years, for twelve years, and if we're lu cky, for a lot longer then tha t. Mr.

Speaker, despite the fact that new members in the House are ex pected to be nice and talk about their constituencies, I feel a kinship to many of the memb ers in this Hous e who were not first elected in this Legisla tur e, because I've known all of the members for some time; many of them through seven Sessions and I felt that I would have freed om, and it obviously has been well received, by persons like the Member for Minne dosa, to be very specific and very direct in my first remarks in the Chamb er, but I'd like very briefly to speak to the que stion of what this Chamb er is and what it means to me, and I suspe ct to all the members here.

I commented earlier on the staff in the Chamb er and on the confidence that I and I am sur e most members have in them and how we come to rely on them. I am confident that the efforts of the previous government in the area of enhancing the facilities in this Hous e and the staff of this Hous e will not go unrecognized by members in this gover nment.

In terms of member ser vices, in terms of additional staff - I think there are now two Cler k assistants, a full -time Cler k at commit tees and additional staff elsewhere in terms of the Ch ief Ele ctoral Office - the former Attorney-General deserves the credit and the praise of all mem bers for having brough t in those change s. Mr. Speaker, I have confidence that all members in the Hous e share also my concern, not only that those

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 chan ges should continue, but that the only way we can make this system work despite our differences across the floor and despite sometimes the blu ntness that we may provide in our debate. Sometimes even, I have heard it said, that we stoop to the middle road rather than the high road.

The Member for Fort Garry sug gested the other day that tho se kinds of sugge s tions will never be taken personally, because we all recognize that not only is this institution important and that we all come here to make a contribution, but more important than that each one of us, I am su re, recognizes the sacrifices that every other member of this Ho use has made to be here; tha t we all come here in a spirit of pub lic service to sit on one side or the other because we belie ve tha t the party to which we bear al legianc e has a philo sophy and a di rection to which we hold and to which we think there is merit.

I will never sug gest that the Member for Nia kwa or the Member for La Ver endrye does not believe the things he says in this Hous e. as I am sur e he would not sug gest the same of me. I respect all members in this House and respect them as men and women who are prepared to stand up for what they belie ve, hold tho se beliefs strongly and are prepared to make a commit ment of time and a commitment to their whole life's career in terms of dis ruption that means that they are going to try to make this province a better place to live. Mr.

Speaker, that is why I am here, I know that all members are here for the same reason and I hope that when I err and sometime s get carried away in Debate, members will remember these remarks, that I respect the contribution that all members make and wish them well in the forth coming Legisla tur e. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the qu estion? The Honour able Member for Pembi na. MR. DONALD ORCHARD, (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to offer my personal cong ratu lations to you on your elevation to the high est office in this Chamb er.

A numb er of people on both sides of the Hous e have indicated that they trust in your abi lity and you r integ rity and from past expe rience know you to be fair and resolute and will be an excell ent med iator in the House. I don't have the backg round from more than four years back when some of the members on this side of the House knew you as a fair chairman of committee but I do remember, Mr.

Speaker, and I want to remind you of my confi dence in you in that in the short term that I have been here and was a member of one standing committee, we had enough confide nce in you, Sir, to make you chairman of that committee which I believe was somewhat unusual for a member of the Opposition to be a chairman of a committee of government. So, Mr. Speaker, I offer you my personal congratulations and best wishes. I want to welcome back to the Ho use a nu mber of my former colle agues on this side of the House, as well as a few familiar faces on the government side of the House.

I particul arly want to welcome all of the newcomers here; there is only one problem with them, that there is too many there and not enough here, but those sort of things have a habit of being remedied and the remedy is only th ree years and nine shor t months away, Mr. Speaker. 12 5 Mr. Speaker, the Mover and the Seconder of the Speech to the Throne made, I thoug ht, very excel lent contributions in their moving and seconding.

The Member for The Pas has a certain right to be slig htly euphor ic for the honour that his First Minister and his Treasury Bench awarded to him by asking him to move the first Throne Speech of the new government becau se, Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed that same eu phor ia when I moved into the Chamb er. As a matter of fact no, it wasn't qui te the same seat but I had that honour - I enjoyed that same feel ing of euphor ia, that same feel ing oi good contribution that I was chosen to add ress the first Speech to the Throne. Mr.

Speaker, I ju st want to remind the Member for The Pas that he should enjoy that feel ing of eup horia whi lst he can, because after four years from moving that first Speech to the Throne, I am now on this side of the House as he may well be four years from now. The Member for Bu rrows, in seconding the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, likewise made an excel lent con tribution to the seconding of the Throne Speech. I might remind him that in the first term that I was here, the gentleman on our side of the House that seconded the Throne Speech is no longer with them. Mr.

Speaker, I want to cong ratula te the First Minis ter and his members of the Treasury Bench -(I nter jection)- Yes, I'll do that and I trust the First Minister will pass along that congratulations . I had decided some time ago that I was going to offer a special congratula tions to two of those members. But after the last several days in the Hous e, Mr. Speaker, I decide d to shor ten the list to one, because one of the Treasury Bench appointees, whom I thought to be in my relationship with him to be both fairminded and a gentleman, has cast some dou bts as to that in his recent few days in the Chamb er.

Bu t, Mr. Speaker, the second person, the Member for Logan I think should contrib ute as did her predecessor in Ed ucation to the betterment of Educ ation. I think the cho ice of that member for Minister of Ed ucation was well foun ded by the First Minister, in view of the fact tha t she does have considerable backg round as a trus tee in the ed ucation system in the Province of Manitoba. That experience from a trustee point of view should stand her wel l to come to grips with the nu mber of problems financially that school boards do wrestle with and the very real issues in Edu cation.

If only that Minister can resist some of the pressure that she will be put und er by various members of the front bench to possibly bring in Deputy Ministers who will abroga te her feel ings and her belie fs in the ed ucation system, she will do well. Mr. Speaker, the First Minister has indicated that there is a temporary sh ortage of Cabi net Ministers, and I would think that he is using this first Session to dete rmine who might move down from the expande d ranks of the backbench into that honour ed Chair of the Treasury Bench.

I can ass ure the Member for The Pas and the Member for Bu rrows that in what I've heard to date, they are still in the front runn ing. Very little contribution from some of the other members is going to, I think, expand their esteem in the eyes of the First Minister and there might be one exception and that being my colleague beh ind me here from Flin Flon, who made what I thought was qu ite a good contributio n.

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 The Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, is a very interest ing one. I noted with interest the other day when a number of the backbenchers from the government side said that they participated in the formu lation and the writing and the content and the facts of that Throne Speech; all I can say, Mr. Speaker, is shame on those backbenchers. Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, we thought on this side of the House that it was the tired gang of five with previous Cabine t experience that had written that wretched document and here we find that the whole backbe nch had someth ing to do with it; and what is alarm ing about that, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, what is alarm ing about that is the fact that we heard after the election of the new government that they had a wealth of talent to select from and if the Throne Speech and their obvious contribution by their own adm ission to the Throne Speech is an example of their talent and direc tion, then I don't envy the First Minister in his selection as to who moves up to the Treasury Bench . But then, of cou rse, one must temper that endor sement of the newcomers to the ND Party Government and their recommendation as being full of talent by the natur e of the writer who indicated that. Ms.

Ru ssell has from time to time not been noted for her objectivity in presenting facts -(l nterjection) well, I realize that is an unkind thing to say about Ms. Ru ssel l, but I will offer you lad ies and gentlemen one smal l shr ed of evidence to back up what I'm say ing and that being that Ms. Ru ssell has never yet con demned the Federal Government and everybody in Canada knows that's a terrible gove rnment, and that's the level of her objectivity. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Deput y Speaker, I will, of cour se ... MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. MR. ORCHARD: I will of cour se, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, supp ort the motion of non-confidenc e. I only have one reservation about the motion of non-confidence that was presented to this Hous e and that is that it could have been much sho rter. It could have said, "Wher eas the Throne Speech offers nothing to Manit obans." But in the fact tha t it added a few words which are very worthy of sup port and I know, judging from the reaction to some of the members in the back bench, that the vote will be a very interesting one because some of them are tearing at their hear ts righ t now not knowi ng which way to go on the vote. So, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, I look forward to the vote on the non-confidence motion. Now th ere were two br ight lights in that very dim Throne Speech and I chastise the First Minister for placing Her Honour The Lieutena nt-Gove rnor in her first Throne Speech, as a matter of fact, in the first Throne Speech del ivered by a lady in the Chamb er of Manitoba to give her such an unenthus iastic and uni maginative Throne Speech. I chastise him for that. He shou ld not have sub ju gated the Lieutenant-Governor to such a poor pickings in a Throne Speech. But, nevertheless, there are two bright lights.

There is the mention of the centennials with Brandon celebra ting 12 6 their Cent ennial and Selkirk celebr ating their centen nial and, Mr. Deput y Speaker, we on this side of the House recognized Brandon in a nu mber of ways last year in advance of their centennial year which we are now in. For instance, I wou ld hig hly recommend that each and everyone of you in the backbench get a copy of the road map of Manitoba for 19 81 -19 82. It features -(I nterjection)- yes, my picture is on it incidentally. It's a very beco ming li keness, I will admit, that took 10 1 poses, but we feature, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, the beautiful east entrance view, an aerial photograph of Brandon and that's how we chose to recognize Bran don's Cent ennial. I only ho pe that the new govern ment represented as it is from Brandon does a few things for Brandon in their centennial year. Mr. Dep uty Speaker, shocked, disma yed and angered by the fact that only Br andon and Selkirk were mentioned as centennial communities. I can understand Selkirk because there is some parochial interest on that side of the Hous e in Selkirk. Bu t, Mr.

Deput y Speaker, the First Minister was very remiss in that he didn't mention that Morden was celebr ating its centennial this year and Morden is that bastion of good citizenry in south-central Manitoba and I can under stand where it's forgotten by this government. Bu t, Mr. Speaker, I want to tell you and the members of the House that Morden on Wednesday nigh t, the even ing before the opening of the Legislatur e, undertook their fir st centennial celebra tion and what was that, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Well, I'm glad you asked because, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Kinsmen Club of Morden in their first celebration of their centennial year honour ed the senior citizens of the town of Morden, and some 525 senior citizens resident in the Town of Morden were treated to an evening of food and entertai nment, compliments of the Morden Kinsmen Club. I know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you and other members of this Hous e will recognize that as a tremendous contri bution by a volu nteer organ ization such as the Kinsmen. No w, Mr. Dep uty Speaker, I want to take the odd moment if I might to talk about the election. Now, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, in my estimation ther e were two very grave problems in the elect ion. The first problem was that we lost; the second problem, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is the ND Party won. Now, I think that bears some time in this Hous e to try and determine wha t happene d dur ing the election, because bear in mind, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that oppositions don' t win el ecti ons, gover nments lose and I'm not certain whe ther tha t happened or not, but time will tell and in the ensuing months and it has al ready started, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that government is well on the way to losing the elec tion of 19 85. Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, we had an election campaign that I have to give full credit to the Honour able Member for Transcona because I bel ieve, and I may be wrong, I think he organ ized the ND Party cam paign. Am I correct in that primarily? He kind of organ ized it. Wel l, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I don' t do it very often for the Memberf orTranscona, but on this occa sion I have to admit that he did recognize issues and more importantly he recognized how to harne ss them political ly to catch the fancy of the people of Manitoba and to garner the necessar y votes to form the

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 gover nment. He harn essed the pol itical issues as he saw them and where he saw them he did change enough votes in the Provi nce of Manitoba to win the election. Bear in mind, Mr. Dep uty Speaker, I say that he qu ickly - not qu ickly he recognized the issue s and he harne ssed them politically and in that regard, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the new government is facing a certain number of problems.

Numb er one, the new government is facing a Mani toba electorate who chose them because they prom ised and gave every indication that certa in things would happen under their administration if they formed government. Now I will ad mit that the promise-a-day Pawley campaig n was never desi gned to be put into force as govern ment because they didn 't expect to win. But now, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, they have some very distinct problems su rfacing and they will con tinue to su rface because they promised interest rate relief; they promised stab ilization to the beef indus try; they promised rent freezing and rent controls; they promised a new growth in the province - a new wealth of job s and experience. Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, to date we have seen an Interest Rate Rel ief Progr am, which doesn't have appl ication forms; which when you apply for it you won't qua lify; and we haven't even seen when we heard for th e last two-an d-one-half years from members of the Opposition who are now government, constant criticism that the busine ss community was in trou ble: that busine sses were failing. They promised instant relief and that is the first promise to Manito bans tha t is going to dash upon the rocks of a bank rupt government.

They will not be able to deliv er the kind of relief - oh, it seems as if the First Minister is tweaked about bankrup t - I meant mentally bank rupt, Mr. Deputy Speaker. That is the first promise that Manitobans one by one - Manitobans who marked their ballot in th e fa ith that they would n't lose their homes; that they wouldn 't lose their farms; that the y would n't lose their busi ness - when they lose them, Mr. Deputy Speaker, they're going to realize the tragic mistake they made in electing that government with that shallo w promise. Mr.

Depu ty Speaker, another promise that's going to come up, that is going to find very very great - oh, Mr. Dep uty Speaker, the First Minister is chattering away about Walter Weir said that - I am not criticizing the people of Manitoba. They voted on the basis of a government that was going to do something positive for them. I am criticizi ng this government now and I will continue to criticize them for the next thr ee years and nine months for not doing what they promised for the people of Manitoba; for not carrying out the faith that the electorate of Manitoba placed in them, and that is what I am criticizing.

Make no question about it, Mr. First Minister, I do not criticize the wisdom of the people of Manitoba, given the facts and given the proof of wha t you will be able to deliv er to them on the basis of your election promises, they will indeed have wisdom four years from now when they vote. They will decide, Mr. Deput y Speaker, as will happen federally, they will decide that the government in power did n't tell the truth during the elect ion, ju st like the national ele ctorate is going to decide that Mr. Trudeau and his Liberals did not tell the truth on energy prices. Rememb er the 18 cent election?

That is first govern- 12 7 ment that is going to fall because they didn't keep their election promises; this will be the next one, Mr. Dep uty Speaker. So, Mr. Dep uty Speaker, getting back to the archi tect of this election, the Member for Transcona; he harn essed political issues. You'll recall very clearly that su bstantial debates and su bstantial discussion occurred on the so-called mega projects. One of those mega projects, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, was singled out as a particu larly good target politically by the ND Party and that was the aluminum refinery which is to be located north and somewhat west of Winnipeg. Now they chose the aluminum industry as a target and they dragged in dur ing the election campaign all kinds of people who wou ld organ ize a meeting saying what terrible pollution there was going to be.

They had letters to the Edit or that miraculously appeared the last week in all the papers in Manitoba miracu lousl y appeared - that this alu minum smelter was going to be similar to Kittimat and it was very adroitly and astutely done because there was no time to refute the very obvious unfactual statements made in that letter to the Editor. I give him full credit, he harnessed the politics of the issue.

Then if we go through the numb er of concerned citizen groups that had their meetings which explaine d the dire consequenc es to the environment of the aluminum industry, all held without any expertise from the aluminum indus try - be it Alcan or anyone else - all held strictly to harne ss a political mood that someth ing may be wrong with the aluminum indus try. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, now the chickens are going to go home to rest, because Manitobans after thr ee months are start ing to say to the mselves and all First Minister has to do is go to Selki rk and pic k up one of his local papers and he will know that the people of Manitoba now are say ing maybe we bought a pig in a poke when we listened to the NOP propoganda in the last election on the al uminum indus try; maybe ther e wasn't anything wrong with the aluminum indus try; maybe th at was a good deal. In fact, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, Manitobans are now say ing we want that industry for Manitoba and they are faced with a very serious problem because they in fact caused the defeat of a government that wou ld have brought it to Manitoba and now Manitobans say do something about it and get us that industry. Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, environment aside the one other thing that they did - and my colleague the Member for Lakeside described it very nicely the other day, he described it as the Big Lie Campaign and that is what the Leader of the Opposition at tha t time dur ing the election did in terms of his hydro proposition in the aluminum industry. He said we were going to give Manitoba Hydr o to a mul tinational.

Give; that is the most blatant big lie that he perpetrated during the election, and now he's got to explain to the people of Manitoba ju st wha t is the matter with Alcan putting up $600 million to advance invest in their portion of the next hydro station, and not have his Minister of Finance trot over to Switzerland where I assume it's a very nice place to visit - and borrow that $600 million and thr ow the province more to the vagaries of the international monetary market Alcan would do that, and now Manitobans who bought the argument that we were giving our resource away are saying $600

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 million was not much of a gift. I think that's a good deal; I think we should proceed with tha t. But they harn essed the issue. Mr. Speaker. I give them credit. I give them full credit for harnessing the issue politically when the y had to, to win an election campaign. But now. Mr.

Speaker. they are govern ment, and I notice that the Member for Transcona in the very first qu estion period that we have had in this House. preened himself the next Monday when Hans ard come out and he was sitting there reading his answers and he was smiling broader and broader because he thought he did a wonderful job. But, Mr. Speaker, here is what the Minister of Energy and Mines said, "Mr. Speaker, it is certainly not the inten tion of the new Manitoba Government to play politics with mega projects." And. Mr.

Speaker. this is after the " big lie" campa ign, the most crass harne ssing of untruth in an election campaign by an political party outside of the Federal Liberals -t his is what he said in a first qu estion we asked him. Later on in the que stion period Mr. Para siuk says, "I think it wou ld be prematur e at this particular stage to try and make a lot of politics out of it." Well. I will go on, because there was another qu estion, Mr. Dep uty Speaker, about the Potash Mine where once again dur ing the election campaign they harne ssed the "big lie" issue of "they are giving away the resources," and here. Mr.

Speaker. is what baffles me. Here is a project in which their Throne Speech dwells entirely on government and publi c investment. Here is a project which we, the ideologue s of righ t wing. private enter prise, Adam Smith, were going to joint-venture with a private company. We were going to put the taxpayer money into the potash development in western Manitoba, ju st the kind of project that they croon and rub their hands about and drool about, the exact pro ject. And wh at did they call tha t. Mr. Speaker? They cal led it giving our resou rces away, selling out the province. Well. Mr.

Speaker, here is what the Minister of Mines and Energy said about that. "It is not this government that will play politics with the futur e of hydro development." And he says fur ther on, Mr. Para siu k, page 11. again, "We do not want to pla y politics with it, we aren't trying to play politics with it." Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this is the arch itect of the NOP Party's elec tion campaign strategy which harn essed the political opportuni ty of tel ling the "big lie" to the people of Manitoba about resource ownersh ip. about the Alcan Smelter, about the Potash Mine. sayi ng in the first opportu nity we would have to que stion this new government, "We should n't play politics with it." Wel l, I can assure the First Minister and his Treasury Bench tha t this side of the House has every intention to play politics with the Alc an Smelter. with the potash development and with the Western Power Inter-Tie, and the pol itics that we are going to play, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, is the pol itics of people, because we want those projects for the people of Manitoba, for their jo bs, for the futur e secur ity of their families, their chil dren and their grandc hildr en. That is the politics that this side of the Ho use, Her Majesty's Loyal Oppo sition, are going to play with th ose issues. ·And, Mr. Dep uty Speaker, it is going to become increasingl y embarrass ing for the government that got elected by talki ng down those unprecedented 12 8 investment opportun ities and those unprecedented opportu nities for jobs to Manitobans.

It is going to become increasingly embarras sing to them in their waffl ing and their inability to negotiate with them , and their probable loss of those extremely good opportun ities for Manitoba, and Mr. Deputy Speaker. that will be the dem ise of that government. They won an elec tion on the basis of the "big lie," that they didn't expect to win. No w they are going to have to del iver for the people of Manitoba. Mr. Deput y Speaker, there's a couple of other inter esting thing s in the Throne Speech. First of all, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, you will note - oh, to the to the member - where is he from now? - the Member for St. Johns, we are greatly interested in getting the transla tion of the speech you gave in Polish to defeat the Attorney-Gene ral. We'd like to have that. Then we'll talk about socialism. Then I assur e the Member for St. Johns, we will talk about socialism. Mr. Speaker, in the Throne Speech, you will note that there are 13 references - and anyone can count them - to public spending. There are two references to the private sector, and each of those references is made in a joint ventur e with the publi c.

There is no recognition of the private sector and its important role in the economy of Manitoba, and this in the first Throne Speech from a government who espouses great bel ief in the mixed economy. Their mixed econ omy is mixed public and public investment, that is how they want it. That's how they want it, mixed public and publ ic. Now. Mr. Speaker, there is one other very interest ing thing tha t came out of the Friday que stion period and it occu rred agai n, Mr. Speaker, ju st yesterday with the First Minister.

All of us recall yesterday when the First Minister was saying, "Well, that's an Order for Return. That's a federal matter. Well, I jus t don't know. please do n't bother me with the qu estion." Now. the First Minister - and he fol lowed the lead of the Member for Transcona who gave him that lead on Frida y, when our leader was very right fully, very objectively and very correctly asking the Treasury Bench jus t what they were doing to advance the nego tiations on the aluminum indus try. and on the Potash Mine. and on the Western Power Gr id.

Now, the Member for Transcona astutely indicated, "Well, we have a negotiating team and we are doing this, that and the other thi ng." The Fi rst Minister asked the Member for Transcona as Minister responsible who is on that negotiating team. And to his embarrassment, the Minister of Energy and Mines was beginnning to think, "Hey this is an attack; this has to be an attack." So he started to defend his Deputy Minister before he knew what to defend him agai nst.

No w, if he has some qu estions about the abil ity of his Dep uty Minister to enter in th ose negotiations so that he is defensive before the que stion comes out, then I'm afraid that clearly tells Manitobans ju st wha t value that govern ment places on the negotiations for the aluminium smelter and the other projects, and that Manitobans are going to lose them. because this Government doesn't care about them and doesn't want to negotiate them for the benefit of Manitobans; that they want to drop them because they would be an embarrassment to them because they would be our projects which were good.

Thursday, 4 March, 19 82 The Member for Transcona got very defensive, and it was kind of interesting to read what he said here and I want to read it back to you, Mr. Speaker. He said, "Mr. Speaker, I think we are starting off on a very wrong track if the Opposition wants to do the personal char acter assass ination that it likes to indul ge in." Now this was simply, Mr. Speaker,

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-6a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 6a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e424133731e565127a8a64859a852049937a58cb

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