Manitoba Hansard — 24 April 1979 (Sitting 46B, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-46b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

'. ' • -.. ~ ISSN 0542 - !>492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVII No. 468 8:00 P.M. Tuesday, April 24, 1979 Office of the Queen 's Printer tor the Province of Manitoba

• ' . .. .. Time: 8:00 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April 24, 1979 SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: I would draw the honourable members' attention to Page 31 of the Main Estimates , Department of Education , Resolutio n No. 43, Clause 4. Program Develop;nent and Support Services, Item (a)

(1) Salaries-pass - the Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Just a few minutes prior to the Committee rising at 4:30, we were dealing with the deceased; we were dealing with some of the deceased programs which this government had laid to rest , one of which was the Co-op Education Program, and at that time -(lnte r jection) Yes, the Co-op Education Program was laid to rest by this government.

And at that time, I was in the process of pointing out to the Committee the involvement of the community at large in the preparation of the program and the involvement of the teachers, the co-operative movement, the School Boards and, for the benefit of the Honourable Member for Pembina, to refresh his memory and I'm sure that somewhere within his constituency he would find a copy of "Co-operative Outlooks " or " Co-operation Community Life " and within it he will find a list of the credits of the contributing institutions and organizations of the participating schools.

He may not have been in the House this afternoon when . .. As a matter of fact, I'm glad that he did speak because I think that there was a school - yes, Carman Elementary School in Carman was involved in the conduct of the pilot project, developing the Co-operative Education Program . I think that, to get this on the record for fear that the program, now that it is deceased and buried, for fear that it may just go by, pass by unforgotten , I think that some names should be mentioned of people who were involved in the preparation of it. -(Interjection)- No, not Karl Marx.

Maurice Gauthier was involved in it, the Deputy Minister of Co-operatives , who also is amongst the deceased as far as the Civil Service in Manitoba is concerned; the then Deputy Minister of Agriculture, W.P. Janssen; Lenore Good, who continued in the employ of this government in the Department of Co-ops for some time and whose job had become extinct a couple of months ago; Irene Alderson, who was very much involved as Education Consultant, in the preparation of this program and the promotion of it, and the institution of it in the public school system. And I think , Mr.

Chairman, that the history of this program should be read into the record. In 1972 .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order . MR. McGILL: On a point of order, the member is referring to a program that was prepared in the Department of Co-operative Development . I believe there is no money in this appropriation that relates in any way to the program which the member is now discussing. It's also my understanding, Mr.

Chairman, that this program was considered in the Estimates that were recently discussed and approved in the Estimates for the Minister responsible for Co-operative Development. So, I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that we should not be doing this twice, that the Co-operative Curriculum Program has already been discussed . It does not in any way relate to the appropriation before the House at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows on the same point of order. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Yes, I would like to draw to the attention of the minister that this appropriation cons ists of activities, and I'm reading from his Estimates Book , the Estimates of his government, cons ists of activities aimed at providing support for the development of educational programs . Mr. Chairman , I suggest to you , that this is an educational program which we of the opposition maintain should be included as part of the educational program within the school system in Manitoba - No. 1. No. 2, I am referring to a program which has been laid to rest , and if the honourable minister 3105

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 would care to look, he would find that it was sponsored by two departments - Department of Co-operative Developmen t was one; Department of Education was the other. And I'm looking at the other program , and there again I find the same two departments listed . So, Mr. Chairman , I'm talking about two programs which we feel ought to be part of the education program in the public school system in Manitoba . And hence , Mr . Chairman , I feel that I'm very much in order and therefore I intend to proceed , and I intend to continue from where I left off . In 1972 ... MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please . I was waiting for some assoc iation with this parti cular clause that we have under discussion, and I would allow the honourable member to continue if we can kind of keep to the Division Administration without wandering too far off the subject. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I intend to do that. I intend to comply with your reques t and under this sub-appropriation, which is the administration of program d1avelopment and suppor t services.

The point that the opposition wishes to make to the government , to the minister , tha t under this appropriation, dealing with program development and suppo rt services , that this is the program which the opposition feels that the government ought to continue develop ing and ought to continue offering support services for, which it is not. In 1972, Mr.

Chairman, a review of approved texts in Manitoba school s determined that there was inadequate coverage of co-operatives in the public schools , that current texts do not deal extensively with the history of the co-operative movement, an integral part of the history of the Prairies. Nor do they contain detai led treatment of such democratic structures as credit unions, grain marketing co-operatives, consumer co-operatives , etc .

And following this review, an Advisory Committee was formed, to make recommendations as to the types of educational materials needed in the schools to redress thE~ imbalance of coverage and co-operation and co-operatives. The committee included representatives from the Department of Education, Department of Co-operative Development, Department of Agriculture, Faculty of Education, Curriculum Consultants, Teachers, from - and I'm departing from the outline in this text - including representatives from all segments of our society . I'm returning to Page 46 of the Co-operative Outlooks .

Their proposal for a Co-operative Curriculum project was submitted to Cabinet. Its approval in late 1973 resulted in a mandate from Cabinet to develop a three-phase program which would provide for: (1) the development of curriculum materials, and I want to remind yoiJ, Mr. Chairman, we are dealing with program development and this is exactly what we are talking about , the development of program materials on co-operatives for use in the public school system ;

(2) The integration of co-operative curriculum materials into the existing school curriculum, and

(3) An evaluation of the projec t. Then, in 1974 , the Departme:-~t of Education- if some honourable member of government should feel that I'm dealing with a progra m not related to this department, it is stated right here that it was the Department of Education and the Department of Co-operative Development delegated the responsibility of developing the co-operative curriculum materials to a staff functioning under the title of the Co-operative Curriculum Project . Then the work commenced .

Preliminary materials were then developed and the materials were reviewed in 1975 by Department of Education personnel, paid for out of appropriations under this particular branch of the department , members of the Manitoba Teachers ' Society, and by teachers in the field . In other words, Mr. Chairman, this was not some program that was cranked out by someone working out of some cubbyhole in some office completely secluded from the rest of the province and then imposed upon the school system . The school system in general was involved in the development of this prog ram .

Subsequently, the development team editors and curriculum consultants rewrote and further developed the materials, and ongoing throughout was input by teachers, artists, photographers, etc., simultaneously developing, under editorial supervision, the physical format of the materials until 1976 rolled around and the material was ready for field testing in the spr ing of 1976. Pilot schools and teachers were selected to participate in the field testing process , the schools which I had mentioned before we arose for the Private Members' Hour .

The choice was determined in part by school size and type and geographic area to make certain that there was involvement and participation from all parts of the Province of Manitoba . The piloting of the materials was preceded by an orientation workshop in February , 1976, and was finalized at a two-d ay debr iefing workshop in June of 1976 .

Then from June to December of 1976, the development team again , after the piloting process , the development team again redesigned, rewrote and refined the curriculum materials incorporating the assessments , recommendations and suggestions provided by students, teachers, reviewers and 3106 ...

• Tuesday, April 24, 1979 evaluators and the product is the three programs, the Co-operative Outlook s which ties in wit h the Social Studies program in high school, the other Co-operative Out looks program which ties in with the business education progra m, and the Co-op eration and Com munity Life program which ties in with the Grade 5 Socia l Studies program , were developed and put on track and ready for implementation in the fall of 1977 . I should also menti on a word or two, Mr. Chairman , that prio r to putting this program on track that the program was evaluated and , t o set your mind at ease, Mr.

Chairman , that the program was properly evaluated. I just want to point out to you that the evalu ation collected data concerning: 1 - the rationale of the program ; 2 - t he goals and objectives of the curriculum; 3 - tt1e teaching strategies; 4 - the learning activ ities ; 5 - the student evaluation techniques ; and 6 - the logic and congruence of the design of the curriculum ; and 7 - the unanticipated spinoffs that might be produced during implementation that could either enhance or interfere with the goals of the curriculum . And I would also want to mention , Mr.

Chairman, that the curriculum materials were sent out for review to establish accuracy of content; co-operative personnel reviewed with regard to co-operat ive practices, principles and history ; content reviewers included specialists in the areas of politics , business , law, philosophy , sociology and history.

The materials were also reviewed by members of the Faculty of Education at universities, by instructors in community colleges, personnel from the Department of Education and the Department of Co-operative Development, members of the Manitoba Business Educatio n Teachers Association , and members of the Manitoba Teachers Society .

And then the material was field-tested and there was a response from them, and the response was not only in the form of a written response but there was a series of workshops conducted where there were face to face meetings between the developers of the program and those who were involved in testing it to obtain as accurate a reading and an assessment as possible on the validity and the effectiveness of this program prior to its formation in its final form. So that is the way this program came into being , Mr.

Chairman, and again I would like to repeat that it was not something cranked out by someone employed by the Min ister of Education of the day or that period of years and superimposed upon the School System, but it was developed working in close conjunction with the School Boards and the teachers and the Superintendents in the Province of Manitoba . And there was a desir e and a need for such a program expressed by them . Now , it's interesting to note that when this program came into being other provinces saw the value of it and asked that we assist them in developing a similar program within their jurisdictions.

And they wanted this program , and they wanted assistance from us to implement it. I could name a couple of provinces , the Province of Prince Edward Island, Alberta, the Province of Saskatchewan, and in particular Regina and Saskatoon within the Province of Saskatchewan, who called upon our assistance, and one of the main architects of the program, whose name appears in here, Irene Alderson , who was Education Consultant for this program, was very much involved in working with those prov inces in getting a similar program on track within their jurisdictions. And the value of the program was also recognized, Mr.

Chairman , by educational institutions from other parts of Canada and even beyond our boundaries . From within Canada by McGill University, Carleton University; Universities in England , and Harvard University , who saw the merit in this type of program as becoming a model for a Co-operative Education Program for their particular jurisdictions. Then, of course, Mr. Chairman , in October of 1977 a change of events occurred and the promotion of this program was discontinued . It was gradually wound down from October until the end of March.

Only that promotion and assistance to School Divisions in establishing the program that was offered was that to which there were firm commitments made, but no further activity was undertaken to assist any other School Divisions in implementing it.

March of 1978 rolled around and the In-Service Training Program for the teachers was discontinued because the staff was let go, and these program outlines which were prepared were left within the various School Divisions to 'collect dust, with the exception of those School Divisions which may have had the benefit of some prior assistance , where the teachers were introduced to the value of this program and were shown how this program could be used in an effective manner to supplement, to enrich the Education Pro. gram which they presently offer and which they had offered over the past, and who were shown how this could be used in the way that would not create an additional teaching load upon their shoulders but in fact would ease the ir teaching load and make the whole teaching process more effective and meaningful and valuable and relevant to the students .

So that's the type of program, Mr. Chairman , which is now deceased and which is now practically non-existent, and which is, from listening to the debate this afternoon, it was quite apparent that the Minister is not rejecting the program out of hand but neither is he endorsing it all that 3107

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 a program dealing with an aspect of our history, of our lives, that's a very, very significant part of all of us because the co-op movement was very much a part of the history of western Canada and very much a part of the history of the prairie provinces. The producer co-operatives and the consumer co-operatives both played a very significant role in the growth and development of our provinces, and the children of our provinces are going to be denied this facet of instruction. More important than that, Mr.

Chairman, is the fact that not only does. this program deal with the history of the co-operative movement and the history of the credit union movement with the ins and outs of how a consumer co-operative or a producer co-op or a credit union operates, but it also deals with the principle of co-operation, co-operation amongst mankind, co-operation in general, co-operation not only as it may be interpreted under that portion of The Companies Act dealing with the operation of co-operatives but co-operation on a day-to- -day basis, co-operation as between you and me, Mr.

Chairman , as we do now, as you and I are co-operating in the conduc t of the business of this House, as you and I would co-operate in our everyday living, as I and the Member for Pembina would co-operate and as we would want to co-operate. -(Interjection)- To acquire a better appreciation and , yes, and as I would want to co-operate and as I attempt to co-operate with the Minister of Education because both he and I have the interests of educatio n of the children of Manitoba at heart .

I would hope that we share that responsibility and I would want to co-operate with him in whatever way I can to assure the children of the Province of Manitob a the receipt of the best education program for which their parents are paying and to which they are entitled . So that's the type of co-op education program that we are talking about , that would develop within the children of our school system an apprec iation of what co-operation is all about , in its broadest sense, in its broader sense as it relates to day-to-day living of all of us on a day-to-day basis . Now, Mr.

Chairman, I understand that this program is being peddled elsewhere , to other provinces, being peddled to other provinces only to clear the warehouses of whatever number of copies of this program that are still lying around packed in crates and collecting dust. But really no effort is being made to assist the purchasers in making the most effective use of them, be it the purchasers in the Province of Manitoba or be they elsewhere . I say that, Mr.

Chairman, that no effort is being made to assist the purchasers in aiding them to use this material most effectively because the staff which was formerly in the employ of government to do that very type of job, to conduct the in-service training program with the teachers , to explain to them how the material can be used effectively to enrich upon those subject areas that they pmsently are charged with teaching, that staff was let go , Mr. Chairman .

This department doesn 't have that staff , nor does it have any intention of replacing it because I am sure there are no funds in the appropriation - well, the Minister of Co-ops, he told us that he has no funds for it and this department has no funds for it, so the program is dead. So really, Mr. Chairman , all that this government is going to do is, you know, peddle off the paper for whatever they will get, to clear the warehouse, and if the material is stored in premises that the govern ment is leasing , either cancel the lease or put the use of that vacant space to some other use. The consequence, Mr.

Chairman, will be that the students of Manitoba are going to be denied the benefits of a product of co-operative effort involving teachers, the co-operative movement, some of whom may have voted for the Member for Pembina , some of whom may have voted for the Member for Roblin, I don't know, I don't know, we didn 't ask, we didn 't ask -(Interjection)- but we didn't ask. Now, the Member for Pembina seems to know so I would hope that when I'm through speaking , Mr.

Chairman, that the Member for Pembina if it's all that impo rtant , he'll get up and he'll identify those people who were involved in the preparation of this program who did not vote for him, you know, if it's that important ; because he thinks that I know, so therefore I'm assuming that he knows; I do not know . Well, the invitation to the member is there and I would hope that he would respond . So, what has happened , Mr.

Chairman, is that the students are going to be denied of the benefits of a program designed to assist teachers to develop the whole host and variety of desirable skills and attitudes which we would like to see developed within our children 's skills and attitudes with which I'm sure none of the members on the government side would take exception to; you know to stimulate an interest in the topic of co-operation , to foster an understanding of co-operation, to examine and understand personal values and the values prevalent in society , to foster a more humanistic approach to personal practice, to foster an understanding of one's interdependence with others, to promote the greater control over one's life by practice and co-operation, my goodness, control over one's life that should be very appealing to every member of !~overnment , no one could argue with that; to promote greater self-understanding and self-awareness through the study of values; and that's a type of program, that's the very type of program that this government has dumped down the drain .

It's dumped it down the drain an investment of the people of Manitoba, 3108 r ' ...

• • • Tuesday, April 24, 1979 an investment of the cost of this program, and this program, Mr. Chairman, as I had pointed out to you, was well prepared, professionally prepared .

If you ask me if it's expensive ; if you divide the cost by the numbe r of students it is designed to serve, I would say $2.00 or $3.00 per student is not expensive; I would say $2.00 nr $3.00 per student is not expensive compa ring that with the cost of textbooks which I had listed off during the Educatio n Estimates a day or two ago when some textbooks run as high as $10 .00 or $15.00 a text ; $2.00 or $3.00 per student at the very most , $2.00 or $3.00 per student because this is not .. . now, you see, for the benef it of the Honourable Member for Pembina, he seems to think that each and every student will have to have a volume of this kind in his hands, but that is not true, this is for the use of the teache r.

And there are supplemental materials produced at lesser cost. The member can acquaint himself with the costs of this program and the format which is provided by speaking to the Super intendent of Midlands School Division to the Western School Division . Anyone of them will be able to give him the details of the costs of that; I don't have to take the time of the Committee to go into those details . Or he could check with the Minister of Educat ion and he too should be able to give him that informat ion.

So here is an investment of the people of Manitoba in a program of this kind to meet the objectives which I've just listed and there are others of a similar nature which has gone down the drain, an investment of the people of Man itoba and an investment of the parents, of School Boards and teachers , of people involved in the co-operative movement , an investment designed for the benefit of those whom we hope would eventually take our place in the conduct of the affairs of this world when the day comes when we'll no longer be around and that they 'll be called upon to assume that duty .

But, through the action of this government, Mr. Chairman, those children are going to be denied that privilege and this government , this government which claims to be so cost conscious, so cost consc ious it doesn't want to waste any money, and here 's a program that's developed for which there was a demand , for which the people asked for , which the people found useful and valuable; this government threw this program into the wastepaper basket, this government threw the taxpayers ' money into the wastepape r basket , down the drain , into the furnace and burnt it and lost it forever. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE : Mr. Chair man, were it not for the former Minister of Education of this province , espousing here for the last 30 minutes and earlier, and the Honourable Member for St. Johns and others across the way on these matters that we're dealing with tonight, I would not have rose in my place , Mr.

Chairman but to listen to this jargon of Socialist junk that's been treading across this Chamber to the tune of a $1,000 ,000 or more , I want to make sure that it goes on the record what the taxpayers of this province paid for , and I hope that this debate will go on for several days till we get to the nitty-gritty and I'm going to try and read some of it into the record that these students of our province are supposed to be indoctrinated with in the limited time that I have; but I'm going to at least put it on record, at least to let the taxpayers know what they 're paying for . Now, Mr.

Chairman, I like the words of the former Minister of Education : "this program is now deceased ." May I say, Mr. Chairman, we can say that about about the government of Prince Edward Island where the Conservative Party has taken over as of yesterday, and I suspect that this program like a lot of that Socialist junk that's been cooked up in the back rooms over the years over there is likely going to end up in the same place as that Liberal government did in Prince Edward Island - out of office; and sitting on the sidelines or on the shelf collecting dust. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I liked the other comments of the former Minister of Education : "children were denied this facet of education ." Socialism with a capital "S" . God bless my Minister or the government who saw fit to take that junk of the records of this province and store it in some back room and don't try and indoctrinate my grandchildren with that kind of garbage, Mr. Chairman . It's unbelieveable when you go throug h some of this stuff , Mr. Chairman . And the only one that I am familiar with , and it's very interesting to understand, they kept all this volumes and millions of dollars worth of this stuff some place.

I never saw it until last night , until somebody tripped me and gave me a package of, "Is Man By Nature A Competitive Individual Being or a Social Co-operative Being? " And then they pass me along this "Co-ops and Monopoly Busting in Sweden." And then this other paper which is " Flour Mill News - Breaking the Flour Mill Cartel." So I've only had time to look at those three which , I guess , was part and parcel of this program . But they come very close to my heart because I come from an agriculutral constituency and well understand the problems of those people in those days and even today .

But we've got this document, "Is Man By Nature A Competitive Individualist Being or a Social, Co-operative Being?" 3109

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 Anyway let's look at the · opening paragraph of this document and I'm sure this will be good for co-operatives. "Co nflic t of ideologies" - now what has that got to do in the co-operative movement in this province? If any members opposite can show me that I can take this to my co-op in Roblin or Grandview or Ethelbert or Dauphin, what has conflict of ideologies got to do with co-operatives? And just show me, in any simple -(Interjec tion)- No, that's the way the subject opens .

And this was supposed to be going into the schools of our provincH to the children to try and tell them that there is some problem with the co-operatives. I have been a co-operative man all my life. I have been part and parcel of the co-op movement since Day One, but show me some place in this million dollars worth of garbage where there is room for a conflict of ideology, because this is a political arena, Mr. Chairrnan , a nd politics is the subject matter of this arena and that's what makes our system tick .

But I don't want the former Minister of Education of this province to stand up and bleed , like the Member for St. Johns did , all afternoo n to try and tell me and the Minister of Education and the Department of Education and the teachers and the students of this province that this stuff is not junk . Can you show me there is room in this debate for conflict of ideologies? That's a foregone conclusion.

We know there is a conflict of ideologies right in this room, right in this arena, right across this province, but the former Minister of Education wants to stand up, and his Party, and say that there is a conflict of ideologies in the co-op movement of this province , I'd like it go on the record and I'd like the Member for St. Johns to stand up and support him ; that is not so. The people that patronize the co-operatives in this province are Liberals , Conservatives , Social Credits and NDP people , from all walks of life , regardless of where they c:ome from.

There is no conf lict of ideology when you walk in the door of a co-op store . There nE!Ver was and never will . . . And I hope there never will be. But if we had left the members opposi te in office long enough they would have indoctrinated the people of this province, including the customers and the kids, that there was a conflict of ideology , and the only person that could opon the door of a co-op store had to be a card-carrying Socialist , and that is not true . And it's a black mark to the co-op movement in this province, and it should never have been raised in this debate , Mr. Chairman.

And I hope the Minister of Education and his staff will get this kind of junk out of circulation at the earliest possible date , because it's a black mark on the co-op movement in this province the day that that kind of junk starts filtering across my constituency . Mr. Chairman, let's go through this document, while I'm at it now, and show you some more of the things that are happening if this kind of literature had been allowed to circulate across the province. I know it cost a million dollars . It's a million bucks that's on the line. It's a little play that they're going to put on in a school.

The teacher is supposed to be the moderator. And it says here, if you read this thing, " The classroom teacher has agreed to act as the moderator for the debate." Who said the classroom teacher has agreed to act as a moderator for the debate? Did the former Minister of Education go around and have an agreement with all the teachers in ths this province that they were going to act as moderator for this debate? I suspect not, Mr. Chairman; I suspect no. Let's read the next line, Mr. Chairman . "The students", the students , remember this , "The students have selected the following thinkers . . .

" The students : the students had no say in it whatsoever; the thing was dropped on their desks from on high from the for mer Minister of Education , and here was their great thinkers that these students were supposed to talk about. In most cases, they had never heard of them before . The first man is a chap by the natme of Thomas Hobbes, and his history is from 1589 to 1679 , British political philosopher during the conflict between the Monarchists and the Parliamentarians . Now, that was the number one . That was the number one.

Some student is going to have to put on that mantle and we will stand that studen t over there . The next student that was supposed to put on a mantle of these people , whoever they were .. . And I remind you, Mr. Chairman , they didn 't ask for this ; this was a Socialist push that was being put on these kids to indoctr inate them and try and get them to say these Socialist words and think this Socialist mind. And I will read some of it. His name was Owen , Robert Owen , a British Industrialist, and he was from 1771 to 1858, and he is considered the Father of British Socialism .

Do you see anything about a Tory in this crowd , or a Liberal, or a Social Creditor? None , none whatsoever , no; it's strictly Socialism , NDP. Some chap then by the name of Spencer is supposed to take the third portfolio in this role, in this great play that's going to take place, and he lived from 1820 to 1903. And he was a British thinker and philosopher . And then comes the next biggee , Marx. The next actor is Karl Marx . Now, who is his wildest imagination would want to bring that kind of an ideology or philosophy into our school system today? Karl Marx.

And, of course, the members opposite call him doctor; I havt3 never got to that level, or maybe my mentality was never that I could agree with him politically but I know in the Socialist 3110 ..

• : • .. Tuesday, April 24, 1979 crowd they call him Dr. Karl Marx, and of course he is the great author of Das Kapital and the old Communist manifesto . Then the next gentleman is a chap by the name of Woodsworth, 1874-1942, Canadian politican, founder of the CCF-NDP Party - the founder . Now, where can I find the something above the Conservative Party or the Liberal Party or the Social Credit Party , or some of the splinter groups over these? I suggest, Mr. Chairman, they are not in this document. They are not in there, and they were not in there deliberately.

They were not in there deliberately because that former Minister of Education and those Socialist eager beavers, when they know . . . If you read all the Socialist literature around the world, read that book, "Left Turn or Right Turn", read all the history of Britain today and the problems they've got. They operate the same in this province as they did in England. Any place the Socialists operate, they operate the same . So we're getting kind of smart now.

You know, you guys are a little late, because all the tricks you are trying to pull on us, we know long before you even stand up what you're going to say or what you're going to do. The next one was a George Keen, and he was a Canadian co-operator and a leading figure of the Co-op Union of Canada, and I respect that gentleman; I certainly do . And then there is a Spanish philosopher, Jose Ortega Y Gasset from 1883 to 1955 - I'm not that familiar with him. And then a chap by the name of Thomas Huxley, a biologist and a writer. But, anyway, let's portray the play and go farther.

So the teacher now has got this document, and he's got these six actors to portray this play. And, of course, the teacher has agreed to act as a moderator, even if he didn't know he was going to act, because the former Minister of Education told him he had to act as the moderator . The students have got these garments on, and are playing these roles, and they were selected without their knowledge by the former Minister of Education. So here we're portraying this "Socialist dream" to this school.

And so it starts out, and the moderator, the teacher again - and, of course, he's talking to young citizens, young Manitobans, and getting ready for this brain-washing session of this Socialist ideology that they're supposed to be indoctrinated with today, to help my friends opposite get more votes the next election . So he stands up, and he reads from this document that I've got in my hand, and he says, "Gentlemen, we have invited you ." Now how could he invite them, because he has agreed to act as the moderator, without the knowledge of the former Minister of Education .

Anyway, he says, "Naturally," - and I'll just read briefly - "the conclusion reached on this issue suggests that the kind of social and economic system which is most likely to benefit man will be the result of this." So they move on, and these guys got their coats on, these students, and Woodsworth, he moves to the front of the stage and takes over the limelight, and he says, "Mr. Spencer suggested that our industrial society fosters self-reliant, humane and individualist human beings. But he completely ignores the brutalities and injustice that have arisen until appropriate controls were introduced.

His hedonistic view on co-operation" - and that's about the largest relationship, Mr. Chairman, I can find to the co-op movement in the . . . it's the one word that Woodsworth said, about his view on co-operation is totally unacceptable. Woodsworth says. And we're supposed to be dealing with developing a co-op movement, and Woodsworth says it's totally unacceptable . He goes on, and he says, "The competitive indiv iduality which Mr. Spencer advocates is unfortunately part of our economic system .

If anything, it has shown itself to be unjust, inhumane, wasteful and a threat to peace and democracy." Now, where would the former Minister of Education try and make me believe, and the people in my constituency, that this was a document to support the co-op movement when we have all kinds of evidence they're opposed to it. He says in Canada , it's led to the concentrat on of wealth in the hands of a few, economic security and poverty for the most. So then we move over and this guy Keen takes over. Keen was the Leader of the Co-cp Movement if you recall what position he was playing.

Keen says, "What is significant, however, is that co-operation has been the basis of man's evolution and survival, the failure to realize this is the greatest dilemma of modern man." A very substantial statement. But he goes on and thHn he leaves himself wide open for further debate, and Keen says, "Unfortunately, this co-operation exists for the sole purpose of making the rich richer," you remember this ? It comes across every day, Great-West Life, the corporate bums, ta da, ta da, the mighty mightier .

The sooner all working men realize that they too must co-operate and unite, the more likely a more equal distribution of wealth , and with it a more just society will come into existence . Now where does it say anything about the co-op movement in Keen's statement? Now Owen takes over, and his role, of course, he was the father of British Socialism . So Owen takes over and he hits the stage and he says, "Yes, if man is to advance in the future, society must be based not on the principle of competition", no, that's out in Socialism, that's 3111

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 remember that, " Society must be based not on the principle of compet ition and individual interest , but on the principle of mutual co-operation.Self-interest has caused all the divisions of mankind", Owen says, "class conflict, international friction and misery . It's wrong to bEllieve that individualism and competition are the best principles under which to base a social and economic system." Now, Mr.

Chairman, just imagine this 15 year old kid standing up with this garment on, portraying this man Owens in his school , and reading that garbage out, and if you read it often enough as I said to the Member for Elmwood the other day , if you tell a lie often enough you 'll finally believe it's the truth . And that's the way the Socialist philosophy is.

They get these young students , and get them to portray these characters, and it goes on and on and you know some of the things that Marx said in here, of course, is one of the reasons - I never read him at great length - but Marx said, " I see not much has changed since my death ." Well , what a great role for this student to portray, but nevertheless here 's this Grade 12 or Grade 11 student , at the wishes of the former Minister of Education , standing up and portraying Mr. Marx , but yes, it says doctor here . So therefore, it proves a Socialist wrote the

article . Anyway he says, " W at I mean here is that the relation between our knowledge and all the other world views that constitute cultural histor y is a dielec dialectical one, meaning that none is completely true , or none is completely false ." Now, how in your wildest imagination could you go to me as a clerk in a co-op store and tell me as a businessman and running a co-op development trying to make business , and my cust omer comes before me at the counter and I've got to tell him what Karl Marx said , " Nothing is completely true " and nothing is completely false .

That customer would leave that store - sure if it was a state store and he had no place else to go, that would be different - but I'm talking about a co-op that 's competitive , Mr. Chairman. And it goes on and goes on , Mr. Chairman , and this Ortega Y Gasset gets into the act , and he must have had a bullfighter 's uniform on or something and he's portraying for these kids socialism . He says man is not a thing but a drama . He says being free means being able to be something else than what one is and not bEling able to settle down once and for all in a determined nature. Great great words. Mr.

Chairman, I hope that the Minister of Education and the Department of Education will not spend that million dollars for this kind of socialist garbage and I want none of it, none of it, absolutely not one leaflet of this or that other paper distributed to the people of my constituency until they've had a darn good chance to look at it very carefully , because I don 't want the people of Roblin constituency brainwashed with that kind of jargon , especially the students and especially my grandchildren . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, earlier this afternoon , the Honourable the Minister said that the material on co-operatives that we are referring to has been distributed to the school divisions and he said by the Department of Education, by doing so, they recommended it for use. I'm not sure they used that word , but he says that by merely doing so was an indica tion that it was recommended for use.

In the light of the very lucid intelligent statements made by the Member for Roblin , is the Minister of Education prepared to reconsider the distribution of this material to the schools, because according to the Member for Roblin , it is dangerous garbage ? That being the case and since I disagree strongly with the Member for Roblin , I am most concerned to know whether the Minister of Education is going to be influenced by the Member for Roblin or is going to continue with the distribution of this material , and I mean that very seriously , Mr. Chairman .

I believe that the Member for Roblin distorted the whole purpose of this and twisted it so that as to make the whole principle of challenging the student to consider and evaluate different approaches and - he used the word brainwashed - he himself wants to limit discussion I believe of the p pils . Therefore it is very important to me to know whether this Minister falls into the trap of following the thinking and the persuasive attempts by the Member for Roblin or whether he is still prepared to distribute this material as being the teaching tool in the school systems of Manitoba . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake . MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman , I just want to make a few comments and I was rather surprised to hear the Member for St . Johns just make his comments in regard to my colleague from Roblin being very capable of distorting - .and I distinctly want to use and emphasize when he uses the word distort - because the comments that my colleague from Roblin just made concern me as well. I'm given to understand, Mr.

Chairman, while the Member for Burrows, the ex-Minister of Education of this province at one time and my colleague , the Ministt~r in the frontbench here rose on a point of order to indicate to him that he thought he was out of order , and the fact that we have discontinued spending another million dollars if that has to be done , and because they 3112 • -4 · ..o;

... . . Tuesday, April 24, 1979 don't like the fact that we are not continuing this program , I would suggest , Mr. Chairman , is a very good reason as to why the member was really out of order and we've wasted a lot of time . And it seems to me, Mr. Chairman , that the honourable gentlemen opposite are still in shock. They can't get over the fact that they are no longer governmen t. They're still in shock . They can 't get over the fact that they're no longer govern ment. And you know, Mr .

Chairman , just because we have d isbanded th is prog ram, and as the Member for Burrows said , it's now dead and is buried. I think that' s fine. I think it should rest there , and I don't think that the member should be allowed to debat e on those prem ises. It's not in the Estimates. As a matte r of fact it is in the past , and I would say, Mr. Chairman , I too am concerned. And when I recall the Member for St. Johns standing up and - if I may be permitted , M r.

Chairman , to just digress just a little bit because I think honourable gentlemen are complet ely off base here when we' re dealing with these Estimates . But the Member for St. Johns was reminded of a particular statement made in the 1973 Election Campaign . He said he was in Notre Dame de Lourdes. He was very careful not to just accuse me. I read his words and , you know , he's like the Member for Inkster , they 're legal people and I think they're qualified , they're able to use the English landguage in a way -that suits them and also suits them in a way that doesn 't get them into difficulties .

But when the Member for St. Johns made the comment that I'd gone around , giving the impression - that's the impress ion I got -(Interject ion)- Oh, I don 't know. I see. I was wondering, Mr. Chairman, that the Member for St. Joh ns was directing his commen ts towards me and that the inference was that I had left the impression with the constituents that I hoped to represent after the 1973 election , that 1 had done that. This little old lady in Notre Dame was given to understand that if the NDP were to go back into power that she would lose her church . You know, Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest that if the NDP were in power with the kind of majority that the Prem ier of Alberta has today , I am so fearful, Mr. Chairman , of what I just listened to that it wouldn 't surprise me if they were in power with that kind of majority that that kind of fear would be instilled in the people of this province . And I say that very seriously . I say that very earnestly , Mr.

Chairman, and I say that not in disrespect because I really believe that some honourable gentlemen, who may not be in these benches , but who may be associated with their Party throughout this pro vince, that that 's the kind of ambitions that they have. That's the kind of motivations that they have. When the Member for Burrows mentioned the people that put that material together , I would suggest , Mr. Chairman , that the people I represent were very very concerned as to where we were going. And I would suggest also , Mr.

Chairman , that if you want to talk about Social Economics , whethe r it apply to private enterprise , whether it apply to co-operatives, I think that should be left for the people themselves to decide . And I would suggest , Mr. Chairman , that I don 't think that the people of Manitoba , and I know they didn't , ask the past Minister of Education who was at that time , that they would like to have that sort of knowledge . I think it came from a few of his select ive friends , who were so far to the left that they were extremely dangerous . As far as I'm concerned, Mr.

Chairman , I just want to leave these few words on the record , that I am pleased to know that my Minister of Education has taken a look at this, and that we are not going to continue spending another million dollars on some kind of information - my colleague used garbage and I'm inclined to agree with him - because I don't believe, Mr. Chairman , that we are sending our children to school for the purpose of learning that sort of thing .

I think that when they become adults, they will decide for themselves whether they want to join a co-operative business, or a co-operative movement , or they may want to remain as a free enterprise system . I suggest , Mr. Chairman, that these young people , when they become adults , and I repeat again, they can make that decision for themselves ; they don't have to be indoctrinat-ed by the superintendent of any school division , by the principal of any school , or by the school teachers of any school. Thank you , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , I do want to make it clear to the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, that when I was in Notre Dame de Lourdes I was told exactly what I've said in this House - exactly what he said I was told - but I was not told who said it, and I never attributed it to anybody except some person with very bad approach , with an undemocratic aspect and with the falseness in his heart , who would have told this little old lady that Mr. Schreyer was out to take away her Church .

And I said it was a bad example of what can go on in the minds of people who are frightened by the kind of wrong propaganda that can be distributed. I never attributed it to the honourable member, because I didn 't know if it was attributable to him. Having said that, Mr. Chairman , having listened to what he had to say today - I heard him say today in this House, 3113

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 and you heard him, Mr. Chairman - that he believes that if the NDP had a substantial majority as great as does the Conservative government in Alberta, he would believe it were possible that the NDP would take away the Church . Now that he made that statement, Mr. Chairman, I would be prepared to attribute this attitude to the Member for Rock Lake, and I've never done it until now, but if he's prepared to go around spreading that kind of malicious , vicious garbage -(Interjection)- MR. EINARSON: You did it the other night. MR. CHERNIACK: You see, Mr. Chairman , he is prepared to do that.

Now I come back to the Minister of Education . I asked him whether it is true , as I believe he said this afternoon , that this mate rial has been sent to the schools, to be available to the schools for use, if they saw fit , believing in the local autonomy of the school board , and that by the fact that it was sent out by the Department of Education, in effect , it was recommended for use.

Now, I'm very careful in my choice of words , the Member for Rock Lake complimented me on saying that I'm careful, and I should be, we should all be careful- I'm careful in my choice of words, because I want to hear from the Minister whether he subscribes to the kind of comments made by the Members for Roblin and Rock Lake in regard to this material , or whether he stands by his statement of this afternoon that it is being distributed , and by the fact it is being distributed by the Department of Education it has, in effect , the recommendation for consideration for study . based on local autonomy , based on the right of the school board to decide whether or not to use it.

And has not stopped its use in the schools as is implied by the Members for Roblin and Rock Lake, as far as I can gather from listening to what they had to say. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman, I think I stated quite clearly here this afternoon , that in regard to the co-op materials, that we had notified the school divisions these materials were available , cop ies of the materials were distributed to superintendents of school divisions , and I can inform the honourable member there has been no stampede of people wanting the materials , but , in fact , the department has notified them that they were available if they, in fact , wished to use some part of the material to supplement part of their business courses or their history courses if they so desired .

We have had no great demand for the materials at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I just wanted to make a few comments based on the remark s of the Member for Roblin , and my honourable friend from Rock Lake . I just wanted to say in general , I would be interested in a current update from the Minister because althOU!~h I have done a minimal amount of teaching in the past year , most of my experience was in the 1960s and I think, you know, that they make an assumpt ion, Mr.

Chairman , that everything that is being taught in the schools is unbiased or somehow or other it is just kind of balanced . The balance, unfortunately , is more like a tilt and the tilt in the 1960s, and the Minister may be able to correct my impression but it is an impression based on direct experience in the 1960s, was that it was very favorable to a particular system that was in existence , and I would briefly describe that system as the system of capitalism and free enterprise and the system of the two old major parties in the country.

If you read the textbooks and you listened to the lessons , they wem very strongly biased in favor of the Liberal and Conservative parties and the various programs that they stood for .

So that when you got to other polit ical parties as an example in the standard history texts that were taught in Manitoba schools, all that could be said about the New Democratic Party and the Social Credit Party was a small segment on a page with the following heading , either " Splinter Parties" or "Third Parties ." No student who studied history by simply reading the standard prescribed texts in Manitoba schools could possibly understand the growth and development of those particular political parties. They just did not make sense.

So that if those texts are still being used , and I believe they aren't but the Minister might comment on that , those texts were being used and they were the basis of knowledge, nobody could possibly understand how a New Democratic government could take power in Manitoba, how it could be in power in Saskatchewan for most of the last 30 years, how they could have won an election in British Columbia, how the Social Credit Party could have any strength in the Province of Quebec , and how they were the government of Alberta for some 30 years and how they were the government of British Columbia for a long period of time , simply puzzling and inexplicable based on the kind of textbooks and the kind of lessons that were being taught, tot ally irrelevant, Mr.

Chairman, to the contemporary political scene . And these 3114 ....

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 were used in the Manitoba schools certainly throughout the Fifties when I was there in high school, etc ., and certainly in the Sixties when I was a teacher . So I say to the Member for Rock Lake and the Member for Roblin , among others , that if they think that everything was fine, perhaps it is because many of the things that they believed in were favored , or maybe the bias was in the direction of their political point of view . But I say that the contemporar y polit ical situat ion should be comprehensible by people who read the textbooks and take the lessons .

I believe that the stor y of labour , that the whole labour movement story , this history of trade unions in Canada , was almost enti rely neglect ed. Similarly , the story of the co-ops , the co-op movement , which is a s tory of co-o peration , which is another concept - there is a concept of co-operation and the re is a concept of competition, and most of us suscribe to one or the other, but 1 guess the average person , even in th is House believes in some sort of a blend and isn't totally dedicated to one postion or the oth er. So, 1 say, Mr.

Chairman , that the development of this type of course , as I see it, which may not be how my colleagues view it, but I say that I believe this was simply presenting another side and a balance to the kind of bias that has been built into our programs for at least from my experience some 20 years . Now, hop efully some of that was rectified under my colleague for Burrows and so on.

I don't know what the pre sent minister is going to do; whether he is going to turn back the clock , or go back to the basics, or whether he is going to make some advances, or try for bette r balance , but I would be curious to hear whether he has any plans to either make advances on the programs that he inherited, or whether he wants to wind back the clock to the '50s or '60s, because 1 say if he's going in that di rection, then he is operating in a kind of a tunnel vision aspect and is not making progress , but is in fact, going backwards . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman , I think that the honourable minister has at least repudiated the Member for Roblin. The minister has indicated , despite my colleague's understandable disappointment that the program is not being continued and expanded and dealt with . The minister has at least indicated that he does not have a p rescriptive list , which he will destroy and not permit to go tc 'lhe school divis ion, or worse still , that he will start the process of book-burning . He says that he has advised the school divisions it is available.

He s ays that he doesn't see a big rush for it , but nevertheless , he doesn't regard it as something that will poison the minds of young people and that it will be available to the students and I am happy, at least , that the minister doesn 't adopt the view that's presen ted by the Member for Robl in, that some how, there is something in this material that is going to indelibly affect and pervert the minds of young people, with regard to the nature of our society . Now , Mr.

Chairman , I happen to be one who would like to have views in the school system presented as neutrally as is possible and I am also one to recognize that there is no such thing as absolute neutrality , that subject ivities have their way of coming through, whether it comes through in the actual text , or the way in which the presentation is made , that we cannot help but have subjectivities .

Hopefully, the openness and diversity of our society will result in a balancing of subjectivities so that we have as much as poss ible the student being in a position of developing his personality without undue influence of one kind or another. But when I heard what the Member for Roblin was reading , it appeared to me that a group had prepared a development of the co-op movement in such a way as to present a debate as between various conflicting ideo logies. I don't know, Mr.

Chairman, whether it is entirely objective, but there is an attempt to have differences of opinion acted out by the students in such a way as to present the reason that there are differences . Now, what would the Member for Roblin , what would the Member for Rock Lake, what would the Member for Pembina do? Would they erase , well - I mean I heard asto nishing statements made in this House. The Member for Roblin doesn't want people to know about Robert Owen . He doesn't want people to know about Robert Owen.

He's going to have to correct the books that I got in high school when there was no socialist government, and he's going to have to go - the Member for Elmwood says you have to back to the '50s. I can tell you that in the '40s when I was in high school. Mr. Chairman , terrible things happened to me. You know what happened to me in high school? I learned about Karl Marx . I learned about Robert Owen. Are w e going to erase these people's names from history? The Member for Pembina appears to say yes, erase their names from history .

Put your - who was it that talked about putting their head in the sand the other day? Mr. Speaker, does t he M embe r for Pembina realize, like it or not , that at least 1,500,000,000 people in this world are living under systems which are different from our own , and some of which are attributabl e o r attribute the ir systems, right or wrong , to the name of Karl Marx. Do you think that if we stroked out from that 3115

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 book the personality of Karl Marx that that is going to change the world? That it will protect the influence of Marxism from the people in this society? Mr. Chairman, there~ was a man who tried to do that. One of the most striking pictures that the Member for Pembina will ever see or that any of us will ever see is a group of German storm troopers throwing books onto a pile of burning books, and do you know who those books were written by? People like Karl Marx , and every other, Mr.

Chairman, person who could be identified with socialism or with liberal democracy or with anything that made people talk like the Member for Roblin . Now, I'm very satisfil~d that the Minister of Education has at least repudiated his colleagues in that respect, because that 's the kind of thing that would scare me. The Meer for Rock Lake said, "If we had a majority such as Lougheed had in Alberta," he would be worried that we were closing the churches. That's what he said, Mr. Chairman, and the Member for Gladstone confirms it. He confirms it. -(lnterjection)- Well, Mr.

Chairman, what we do know, is that the only man of the Christian faith who wore the cloth, who became the Prime Minister of a province in Canada - I hope that I am right I can't think of another one - was Tommy Douglas . Not a single church was closed in Saskatchewan . As a matter of fact, a man of the cloth was the Prime Minister of that province . A Baptist Christian minister became Premier of the province of Saskatchewan and had something like 48 out of 52 seats. So he had the kind of majority that the Member for Rock Lake is talking about. And it's not that kind of government, Mr.

Chairman, not that kind of government that started to oppress minorities. No. It was the Conservative Duplessis government , counterpart to the Conservative Party, the only Conservative Party that existed in the province of Quebec, that was running around padlocking the people of a religious faith that they didn't agree with . Not a socialist government , a Conservative government did it and a Conservative government who we have to fear will do that type of thing . -(Interjection)- Well, Mr. Chairman, I know the Member for Gladstone does not want to listen to the fact, but the fact is, Mr.

Chairman, that it was a man of the Christian faith, another man of the Christian faith, Mr. J. S. Woodsworth , who was a man of the cloth , who became the leader of the CCF. -(Interjection)- Well, Mr. Chairman , you know , the fact is that he was a minister and he didn 't close any churches. As a matter of fact he was put in jail by a Liberal government because he quoted Isaiah and was therefore held to be a revolutionary . -(lnterjection) That's right. That is a historic fact. He was locked up. He was not tried , but he was arrested and put in jail on charges of sedition because he quoted from Isaiah.

That 's what happened and it wasn 't a New Democratic Party government that did it, I believe it was the Norris government . It was the Norris government in 1919, a Liberal government that did it, and I don 't know who the government in Ottawa was at the time but they were the ones who assisted it and to my recollection the government in Ottawa was not a socialist government either , because we haven 't had one yet. So when the Member for Rock Lake and when the Member for Roblin and when the Member for Pembina start talking about this kind of thought control, let 's recall , Mr.

Chairman , that it is not substantiated in any fact. It is not substantiated by any incident which took place during any government that was elected under a CCF or New Democratic Party banner, and as a matter of fact if one wants to find the incidence of it, the: will find it under governments that were elected under other banners . Now Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the honourable members on the other side of the House that when I went to school I learned about Herbert Spencer , I learned about Robert Owen, I learned about Karl Marx . I don't remember learning about Mr. Bean, is it?

Did he say they had in the co-op? Keen. I don't remember, but that's possibly my bad memory . But if I didn 't learn about him , is it poisonous to the minds of young Manitobans that they learned that Mr . Keen was one of the originators of the co-operative movement in the province of Manitoba? Especially, Mr. Chairman, when it is not, and you know I'm not even certain that I like the presentation. I'm not certain that it is as objective and as non-subjective as I'd like it to be, but , Mr.

Chairman , I am certain that we cannot erase from our educational system historical facts which if they are not dealt with will be completely misunderstood, and something is going to be dealt with . Does the Member for Rock Lake know that the school system permitted - and I don't know whether or not it still permits - the Chamber of Commerce publishes a littlE! booklet which is almost like the story that is usually told by the Member for Morris about the red hen, about how somebody did all the work and other people got all the money, etc. ,

whereas everybody else wanted to eat and it extols the principles in completely a subjective manner, which they believe to be right, of capitalism. My recollection is that this booklet was distributed to the school system. t wasn't part of the curriculum, but the school system facilitated its distribution, did not object to its distribution , and that material was given to the students . Are the honourable members saying that that material did not poison the minds? Or suggesting that it did poison the minds of the students who read 3116 ...

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 it? Because it was distributed through the school system . At least that's my recollection. I think that the Minister of Education is acknowledging to me that it was. I don't know whether it still is, but frankly I'm not that much worried about it, provided that the students are exposed to many many ideas, and what the Member for Roblin seems to be saying is that Karl Marx must not be exposed to the students. Robert Owen, who was the foun der of ,.. the co-operative move ment in Great Britain - the words used in the pamphlet are the founder of socialism in Great Britain .

I don 't know whether that is true but I know that he founded a co-operative colony or society -(Interjection)- a co-operative enterprise . My friend the Member for Logan who knows more about Owen's history than I do indicates that it was a co-operative enterprise . Are these people to be erased from history? Because I want to tell my honourable friends that I also learned about Adam Smith , Adolf Hitler, if they like, I mean we can't leave him out.

I learned about General Franco , I learned abou t Benito Mussolini, I learned about numerous Liberal, and Conservative leaders, I learned about MacKenzie King ... pa-don me ? A MEMBER: Attila the Hun. MR. GREEN: I don't remember Atilla the Hun but I do remember learning about MacKenzie King. I do remember learning abou t Arthur Meighen. I remember about learning about many people who were part of Canadian history .

I find that the Member for Roblin feels that if people are exposed to everything - now th is is really the worst part of it - he seems to think that if people are exposed to every thing they will choose Socia lism. I wish I had his optimism . He thinks that the students are going to be brainwashed if they learn anything about Socialism alongside of the other ideologies that have been part of our historical past. .. The Membe r for Roblin saysyou can't have much conviction that if these things are put side by side and that there is information about all of them they will choose Socialism . Well, Mr.

Chairman, I hope he's right. I am not nearly as optimistic as he is, but I hope he is right. Because I say thatwwhe ther or not those books are distributed, whether or not you try to prohibit the availability of information, as Emile Zola said , Mr. Chairman , i n his defence of Alfred Dreyfus, the truth has a way of pushing up and through espec ially when you try to suppress it. And I therefore think that they will be exposed, whether the Conservative Party erases those books from the literature in the libraries of high schools or not, that they will be exposed.

If you don't expose it to them, they will find a way of getting it even if you tried to burn all those books, they will find a way of getting it. And if the Member for Roblin is rihht, that if they get this and read it side by side they will choose Socialism, it's nothing but optimism for the people on this side of the House. ' .... ; MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, we've had a wide-ranging ideological debate for some time that stemmed , of course, originally from our discussion of one particular program that I have mentioned earlie r regarded as supplementary material.

Let me say at this time, Mr. Chairman, that as far as the educational system is concerned , I th ink that it should present a fair, unbiased and equal portrayal of all topics in our society . And I emphasis, Mr. Chairman, equal and unbiased and an objective viewpoint. And I say this , whether it be in connection with the business community , the labour community or whatever aspect we may be talking about. And to my knowledge, Mr.

Chairman, this is the type of system that we have in Manitoba today where students in our schools learn about banking and about credit unions and they learn about labour unions and they also, of course, are subject I suppose to pamphlets from the different unions and from the Chamber of Commerce . And I see no problem in that , Mr. Chairman, as long as those materials are labelled as to what they are and who is sending those materials so that teachers and the students are well aware of what they are studying .

So if a person is reading Karl Marx they know they are reading Karl Marx and I say that is an objective treatment of the particular topic . I think the fear that one or two of my colleagues have expressed is that we may have materials at times that are presented in a non-objective fashion . And they are concerned that there would be some propagandizing and an indirect movement and I certainly would share their fears that that type of material would ever become part of our educational system. And I think the Member for Inkster would probably agree with me, that is not what he wants to see.

If 1 read him correctly he is advocating an objective look at all sides . MR. GREEN: Absolutely. 3117

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 MR. COSENS: And I say, Mr. Chairman, this is certainly the type of system, the educational system that I subscribe to, an objective treatment of all aspects of our society. Our young people must know what these different aspects of our society are. Whether they will then agree or not , of course, will depend on their particular thinking, their particular reasoning power , the decisions that they come to as they mature. Now as far as political parties are concerned, Mr. Chairman, that again is another matter .

And I can say to the member that from my acquaintance with what is happening in the schools of Manitoba ~ today, particularly in senior History classes , they are receiving a rather object ive look at the different political parties that make up the whole political spectrum in this country, perhaps better than we ~ have ever had before in our history . I cannot remember during my educational experience that I received that type of good broad panoramic look at the whole political system and the different -;. parties that composed it.

Students are receiving that kind of information today in an objective way , not a propaganda type of system, Mr. Chairman, but an objective informative system that provides them with the facts . And as far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, that 's the type of education system that I think we require . MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass, the Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I regret the Honourable Member for Roblin has left the Chamber . I've been sitting waiting for him to come back to help further his education somewhat on the matters that he raised earlier on.

And lest the Honourable Ministe r of Economic Development , I believe it is, make the same error I have before me, Mr. Chairman , the complete book , the Member for Roblin was just quoting from one very tiny part of it. Had he looked forward over the preceding section, Mr. Chairman , he would have found four pages of biographies of the individuals mentioned . And for the information of the Honourable Member for Roblin and other members present, I would just like to read into the record the biographies and views of these different persons as they are given here.

The first one given here is Herbert Spencer, 1820-1903. I noticed the Member for Roblin has just rejoined us, Mr. Chairman , and I will say it again for his benef it' and for his edification that I am reading from a series of biographies which occur in the particular course that he mentioned immediately before the part that he was quoting . "Herbert Spencer, an English philosopher scientist , who was a leading figure in the intellectual revolution of the 19th century .

Although many of his ideas are largely ignored today , Spencer in his own time was very influential and played a major role in the developmen t of biology, psychology , sociology and anthropology. Spencer advocated the dominance of the individual over society and of science over religion. For the various social sciences the primary signifance of Spencer is that he was among the first to state that human society could and should be studied scientifically and that it should be studied from an evolutionary point of view .

Spencer was one of the most argumentat ive and discussed English thinkers of the Victorian Period . H1~ provoked many other intellectuals to reconsider man's place in society and to look at science with a new perspective. Spencer was noted as a great exponent of Victorian optmism and idealism , but he was by no means unaffected by the pessimism that from time to time clouded the Victorian confidence .

Spencer's general conclusion that society exists for the benefit of its members and not they for its benefit, remains as his single most important contribution to philosophical thought." Next is Thomas Huxley 1825-1895 . In the order that they appear in the book itself, the next one to appear is Thomas Huxley . " An English biologist whose thoughts on philosophy and religion helped to change the course of scientific and intellectual thought in Victo rian England . During his lifetime Huxley refuted many . orthodox theories based on the deductive method about the development of the human anatomy .

In 1858 he published " The Theory of the Vertebrate Skull " in which, by his inductive method, he completely demolished Richard Owen 's idealistic view of the origin of the skull. This finally disposed of the archetype and is said to have liberated the English anatomical school from the deductive method . When in 1859 Darwin 's "The Origin of Species " was published , Huxley realized that here was an intelligible hypothesis on which to base the study of evolution.

At the Oxford Meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science in 1860, Huxley's defense of the evolution theory against the attacks of Bishop Samual Wilber force resulted in a victory for science over the opponents of enlightenment. Huxley was a dedicated educator and his service on the London School Board is noted for reform and advancement of teaching methods. Betwen 1862 - 1884 he served on ten Royal Commissions while at the same time h13 continued to contribute many important publications on scientific research.

Huxley 's promotion and defense of Darwin's theories did more than other man's efforts to establish it as the most important factor in the development of human knowledge in the late 19th century ." 3118 • ... ·-

.. .. ,.. ... .. Tuesday, April 24, 1979 The next biography given is that of George Keen was one who met with the approval of the Honourable Member for Roblin. George Keen 1869-1953, "An English journalist who emigrated to Canada in 1904. Keen who had never been involved in the co-operative movement while in England decided to attend a meeting in Brantford of a local group trying to promote the co-operative idea in 1907-1908. At the meeting, Keen found himself advocating the need for a committee to study the subject and to report its findings and recommendations to another general meeting.

Two years later, Keen realized if it were desirable for individuals to form co-operatives to serve their mutual needs and interests , it would also be desirable for co-operative societies to organize a national union. At a meeting in Hamilton in 1909, Keen was elected General Secretary for the year of the newly formed Co-operative Union of Canada. He occupied this position for some 37 years until 1948. At the same time, Keen was also appointed editor of the Canadian Co-operative, a position he held until his retirement in 1948.

Upon his retirement the publication which was the oldest co-operative newspaper on the continent ceased publishing . Working through the Co-operative Union and the newspaper, Keen tried to unify all phases of the co-operative movement in Canada within the world movement. For about 20 years Keen made annual visits to western Canada at the invitation of the provincial governments to check the progress of individual co-operatives and make recommendations. " The next biography given is that of Karl Marx, 1818-1883.

"A German political philosopher and founder of scientific socialism whose doctrine known as Marxism forms the basis of modern international communism. Marx studied history, philosophy and law at the Universities of Bonn and Berlin , and in 1841 he received his doctorate. While in Berlin, Marx became interested in the study of social and political problems and joined the left wing Young Hegelian Movement. While he was associated with the movement, Marx edited a newspaper called Rheinische Zeitung . In it he attacked the authoritarianism of the Prussian state .

He was forced to flee to Paris with his family when the Prussian authorities shut down the newspaper . This same radical opinion prevented Marx from following his chosen career as an academic. In Paris, Marx continued to write radical articles and edited another left wing newspaper . It was here that he met Friedrich Engels with whom he maintained a lasting friendship . "In 1847, he and Engels joined the Communist League . -(Interjection)- Joined the Communist League ; not started it, an international workers ' society for which they wrote the Communist Manifesto in 1848.

It was the first public statement of international socialism which attacked the state as a tool of oppression and which stated an economic political and social program to overthrow the capitalistic system . For the rest of his life, Marx focused his attention on the study of capitalism and predicted its eventual downfall. Marx advocated a classless society in which all would benefit. Each would take only those things that satisfied his basic needs and each would give according to his ability.

A political state would not be necessary and the majority of man's energies would be directed toward the most satisfying of rewards; the development of cultural and intellectual talents." Next is Thomas Hobbes (1558-1679), "often referred to as one of the greatest British political philosophers, his life was often marked by political controversy . During Hobbes' development as a philosopher, England's political situation was unstable. At this time, a conflict was developing between the supporters of the monarchy and those of parliament.

In 1640, Hobbes published his work , "The Elements of Law" in which he agreed that men can only live together in peace if they agree to subject themselves to an absolute political sovereign. Hobbes' political theory antagonized both groups in the constitutional crisis. On one hand , the believers in the Divine Righ of Kings were irritated by his attempt to base sovereignty on a social contract while the parliamentarians were upset by his advocacy of an absolute monarchy.

Hobbes' political philosophy can be viewed as paradoxical in that he was a political absolutist who became one of the founders of liberalism." Did the Member for Roblin hear that last sentence, that our friend Mr. Hobbes became one of the founders of liberalism? "His philosophy begins with the concept that the individual must have specific rights and can be given security to protect those rights, but he feels that this can only be attained by the creation of a sovereign whose power and authority are undivided whether this sovereign authority be vested in an individual , an oligarchy or a democratic assembly .

Hobbes ' importance can be seen in the fact that he made it clear that the first requirement of political and moral institutions is that they must provide for the individual first." Next is listed out of Jose Ortega, and the Member for Roblin was not familiar with this gentleman, so for his education I will proceed with Ortega , (1883-1955), the Spanish philosopher. "The foremost Spanish thinker of the twentieth century . Ortega tried to bring Spain out of its intell ectual isolation and into closer touch with modern Europenn thought.

He received his doctorate from the University of Madrid and he continued his studies at several German universities . In 1910, at the age of 27, 3119

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 he was appointed Professor of Metaphysics at Madrid. From this position , Ortega sought to awaken and direct Spanish and Latin American thought by teaching them the important works of German and other European thinkers in philosophy, psychology, sociology , and literary criticism. To reach this end , Ortega gave brilliant public lectures and wrote many articles in a style marked by clarity and vivid imagery.

To ensure that his message and the messages of others were received by everyone , in 1923 he founded the Revista de Occidente ", and I don't know whether I'm pronouncing that properly, "a journal and publishing house which is still acti ve today . "Ortega was also active in politics. In 1931 he helped establish the Spanish Republic and served as a delegate to the Chamber of Deputies. He was also civil Governor of Madrid . When the Spanish Civil War broke out in 1936, he went into tempo rary exile staying in several European countries and Argentina .

At the end of the Second World War he returned to Spain to renew his previous efforts . "Ortega felt that life, both for the individual and for societies , is " the rational reality" , the reality in which all other realities are given, and therefore, the central concern o·f man. Because man is not inseparable from his world and since there are no universal truths to help him, he needs reaso n to make rational decisions in a world filled with insecurity and doubt.

Ortego contributed greatly to the philosophical awakening of his countrymen through his writings which touched all realms of Spanish culture ." Next is Robert Owen ( 1771-1858) . The Member for Roblin should listen carefully to this one. "A Welsh manufacturer who became one of the most influential Utopian socialists of the early 19th century . He began to influence social thought in 1799 when he acquired at New Lanark, Scotland, the cotton mills which he made famoss. His mills became a showplace of enlightened management and Owen 's reputation as a social reformer spread throughout Europe.

Owen took an intense interest in the welfare of the people working in his mills . He helped improve living conditions by encouraging the people to develop habits of cleanliness, order , and thrift. He opened a store at which goods of sound quality could be bought at little more than the cost price. Owen had a strong interest in children and in 1816 he opened the first infant school in Great Britain . By 1817 his work as a practical reformer had given way to ideas that were to make him the forerunner of socialist and co-operative movements .

Owen proposed the establishment of villages based on unity and co-operation for the unemployed and the formation of self-governing workshops . The need for a market to sell the products from the shops led to the establishment of the National Equitable Labour Exchange in 1832. Owen's movement ended in 1834 when it faced determined opposition by employers and severe repression by the government and the courts. It would be two generations before socialism again influenced the union movement.

Throughout these years however, Owen's ideas on co-operative effort maintained a hold and ultimately provided the basis for the worldwide consumers ' co-operative movement." And the last one given is that of J.S. Woodsworth (1874-1942) . " A Catnadian politician whos e political philosophy has influenced government legislation for the past fifty years. Woodsworth was educated in the Methodist ministry at the Universities of Manitoba and Toronto .

While at Oxford he visited the city missions and slum areas of London and it was here that he developed an acute social conscience that led to his questioning some of the tenants of his church. Eventually such questions would lead to his resignation from the ministry in 1918. During his period as a minister, Woodsworth was assigned to missions that contained low income groups. At the All People's Mission in north Winnipeg , he worked to improve the social conditions of the people made up of a rich mosaic of new Canadians from Eastern Europe .

After he had resigned from the church, he became interested in the problems of labour organizations . Woodsworth was in Winnipeg on a speaking tour when the Winnipeg general strike of 1919 occurred. He was arrested on charges of seditious libel and jailed for five days . The charges were later dropped . In 1921 Woo dsworth was elected to Parliament for Winnipeg North Centre and he held the seat until his death .

During this time, he was a founding force in the creation of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, CCF, later NDP, at its foundation meeting in Calgary in 1932 and at the National Convention in Regina in 1933. Throughout his thirty years in Ottawa, Woodsworth advocated the establishment of better social conditions for the wage earners and farmers and a new social order based on humanitarian principles .'' Now following those biographies is given part of what the Member for Roblin quoted from and what it is in fact to my reading, is a little story couched in terms that a class could understand .

It's a story of what a possible conversation between these different philosophers might have said to one another , trying I believe to put forward their positions , their poin ts of view, and their philosophies . This goes on for about three or four pages and then comes the part for the students to interest themselves in, headed "Questions for Discussion " . There are up to twelve questions, each of those questions broken down into several questions on each of the particular philosophers involved . For instance 1.(a), starts off : "Hobbes argues that man is a competitive creature. What 3120 ~. I - ...

.. .. Tuesday, April 24, 1979 is the motive behind this type of behaviour according to Hobbes?" There is a question that is posed to the students in the class. Under 2., questions about Spencer, and I pick one at random: "Would Spencer agree with this statement: Men originally banded together for self-protection, and why?" Third question deals with Woodsworth: "Woodsworth sees competitive individuality as part of our economic system . What has been the consequence of this system to the total global condition and to Canadian society?" Students are asked to answer the question.

Four: "Keen argues that: Co-operation has been the basis of man's evolution and survival. Keen applied this assumption to the operation of a competitive free enterprise society to prove his point. !=xplain the reasoning underlying his argument." . "Owen states that human society in advancement are dependent upon certain principles . What are these principles?" "Huxley describes the natural world in terms of prey and predators and gladitorial combat. What does he mean by these analogies? Does Huxley believe that man by nature is a competitive being?

Explain with reference to his statements." A question on Marx : "What are the determining factors shaping human consciousness and society as explained by Marx? What would be the relationship between these determining factors and human behaviour?" "Ort ega says that man does not have a nature but a history. Does this mean that man's nature is not inherited or inherent within him but is the sum of his past experiences?

If your past experiences are different from another person's, does that guarantee that we will have different natures, i.e. personalities, values , attitudes, emotions, etc .?" A good question to be asking of students. And the last question, No. 12 says: " With which of the inter pretations on the nature of man do you agree most? Through this discussion, attempt to formulate your own

interpretation of the nature of man . What kind of being is man? Take a stand on the original question, is man by nature a competitive individualist being or a co-operative social being?" And then there are five more suggestions after that for other possible topics for debate . 1 believe , Mr.

Chairman, that that puts on the matter, a totally different light from that given to it by the Member for Roblin and I would li.ke to ask him, if he's still here and those other members opposite, do you want your children to form their views on religion, on philosophy, on politics, because they have seen a num ber of different views and have come to that particular view, by thinking things out for themselves, or do you simply want them to come to their particular view, because that is the only view that you have have given them?

I ask the members to consider that and ask themselves, whether that is not what is intended in this particular program. MR. JOHNSTON: I don 't intend to take much time. Well, the comments from the Membe r for St. Johns, if there is any book at all that's going to produce Marxism or Communism, he's waving it or marching down the street with it, that we know. Mr. Chairman, I've looked at this book, and as the honourable member has stated earlier, the Member for - not St. Johns, what is your constituency again , Sid? MR. GREEN: Inkster. MR. JOHNSTON: Inkster. I do know it ; we all make some mistakes at times .

I know that you don 't, but some of us do. Mr. Chairman, I agree with the Member for Inkster and I agree with the Minister of Education that books of this nature should be sent out, and people should have a choice. But to make the statement, that these books are unbiased in any way, shape or form is something that just can't be done. Now, the gentlemen that the member just read out come under the architects of society type of thing. You know, there are other architects of society as well that people have the chance to learn about.

The illustrations within your books are ones that show always the bad guys strangling the co-ops or something of that nature, and the bad guys are the free enterprisers naturally, in this book . The one that you have gone to the trouble of making a special pamphlet of, that you just referred to, you know, that's a dandy. You mention the men that were in this debate and they were the men in this debate, there were no others in the d~pate and then , you went to the trouble, Mr.

Chairman , of printing a special pamphlet, also showr\ in the book with a flour bag lying over the guy, with a top-hat, with a cigar grasping money . This was printed by the Province of Manitoba, 1976. When the Honourable Member for Inkster talks about the Chamber of Commerce and other people who send things, they usually pay for them themselves and send them out. These are printed and paid for by the Province of Manitoba, the people of Manitoba . The taxpayers' money printed this kind of rubbish.

If you want to put it in a book that's the curriculum, but to go to the special effort of making comic book sections of it that can be handed out to people - that's another 3121

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 thing. That also, the Province of Manitoba, 1976 - here you have the other one, another special pamphlet that was in the book , another page that was in this book. You make another special pamphlet to be handed out , paid for by the Province of Manitoba . Province of Manitoba, 1976, taxpayers ' dollars . If the co-op movement or co-ops in this country want to do that, be welcome , be my guest and if you want sent out a curriculum that people can choose from, be by guest also. It is biased , but people will have a choice .

But to take a hold of this other - pamphlets, almost like election literature; make it available T to them from this book printed by the people of Manitoba . I would suggest to you that that particular practice is not a good one. That's extending , that's extending what you said was so good ; what the Member for Inkster says was something that should be done; what the Minister of Education says he has no objection to - that was fine, but your extension makes it pretty obvious what you 're trying to do, paid for by the people of the province of Manitoba . You blew it, you blew it.

You had something that probably could have bHen acceptable, whether they wanted to teach it or not , or learn it or not, or take it home with thHm or not was fine . But you always go too far and that's when you blow up your red lights and you show what you're doing and without any hiding of your thoughts at all of what you're trying to accomplish. So, you blew it, fellows , you went too far. You made it pretty obvious what you were try ing to do, by taking certain sections of this, which are obvious pamphlets to be passed out. Mr.

Chairman, I don 't think the people of the province of Manitoba should have to pay for that . If you think they do , that 's up to you. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass - the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. BOYCE: Well , Mr. Chairman, I was really enjoying this debate, because it's one that probably should have taken place before the last election , because it is more impor tant than the dollar here or a dollar there .

But I was somewhat taken aback by my friend from Rock Lake by his suggestions, but nevertheless , it is in this realm I think, that we are raising some questions to try and provoke some government members to put on the record their philosophy of education , and we have been successful in this regard. One of the things that is evident, if you will study that part of history and the part of history since then ,that if we are ever going to reach political stability , it is through the acceptance of evolutionary change in our systems.

Nevertheless , in sitting and listening to one, two, three, four and from his seat , five members opposite, I thought that they would be comfortable in trying to address themselves and to the problems in Rhodesia, because they are totally unwilling to accept change and as pointed out by my colleague for St. Vital, that while Marx had started off as a Socialist, he joined the Communist party, because I don 't know anybody on this side of the House , who is a state capitalist.

And we have heard much from the members opposite that they 're for private enterprise ; they are not and it is becoming more and more evident that they are not . You know, they 're corporate capitalists and the larger the corporations , the better , be1cause when the Minister responsible for Economic Development. . . I think that 's a little monopoly thing , it 's to point out the dangers of monopoly . I don't know what the society is going to be like , Mr. Chairman , in dealing with the problems of the concentration of corporate capital wealth that is taking place in this country.

If we look to the south , which is a free enterprise system , there is more ·freedom in the enterprise system down there, than is possible in Canada with the take-overs that have come about in the last few years, just in the last week with Thompson and the rest of them . But nevertheless, Mr.

Chairman , perhaps you have been more than tolerant with us in debating this particular issue, but it has in my judgment, been important because it shows the insecurity of the Conservatives in this party, that the only way that they can sustain their position is not by putting alternative choices before the people and letting them make up their minds , is by forcing them to listen to one particular point of view only . And these people will decide what that shall be. My friend, the Member for St .

Johns earlier . . . it is my distinct impression that the reaction of the government , relative to building the pieces together was primarily because of the position taken by a group , which is calling itself the " Renaissance , Manitoba" and if anybody wants to read the local John Birch Society pamphlet, I would suggest that you get a hold of this. The Renaissance Manitoba, Post Office .. . MR. JOHNSTON: Not the Province of Manitoba . MR. BOYCE: Well , Mr. Chairman, I know the Minister of Economic Development differentiates between the taxpayers in Manitoba and the people in Manitoba.

When he stands over there and says that the Chamber of Commerce pays for something, where in heaven 's name , do they get 3122 ;

.. Tuesday, April 24, 1979 the money? That money is included in the price of the products that they sell. The people of the province of Manitoba pay one way or - and the Member for Pembina laughs , because he doesn't know a tinker's damn , I wonder what they teach in agriculture these days. He doesn't know anything about economics . The people in the province pay for it; they'll pay for Trizec down there . They'll pay for the Woodsworth Building , but they'll pay for Trizec Building down there, at the corner of Portage and Main also . He doesn 't even understand that.

But one of the things that was pointed out - when this thing abou t building the pieces together and the reaction of the government in opposit ion by this group - was covered very well by Ken Osborne in an editorial on the 22nd of January , February, March, April, of April , 1978. It can best be summed up by - I always thought that the task of education was to open minds, not to close them; to reveal to the students , at whatever level, things that they otherwise might never encounter. If we cherish an open society , if we really value informed minds , we must surely question the premise of fundamental schools .

But, Mr. Chairman , right at the moment I'm not addressing myself to the Minister of Education per se, but to the Progressive, or Regressive , Preservative government, as the spokesmen from the middle bench have put themselves on record, what their attitude is. The M inister of Econom ic Development might well have a case, that there is a bias in the book . And I would agree with the Member for Inkster that all books should be checked for that sort of bias, as we spent conside rable effort removing the word " savage" from out textbooks in Manitoba , when referring to native people .

I had an Indian chap - I digress but briefly, Mr. Chairman - who asked me what I thought of the Seven Oaks victory , because from their point of view, it was a victory. From our point of view, it was a massacre . But , Mr. Chairman , in this administration of the Program Development and Support Services, I think the debate this evening has been worthwhile , in that the Minister has given his support to cont inuing in the educational system in Manitoba, in the public schools , a presen tation of many viewpoints , albeit that it is quite apparent that he has not the support of a good number of his colleagues . MR.

CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass - the Honourable Minister of Economic Development . MR. JOHNSTON: Just very briefly , Mr. Chairman . The honourable member believes that the Chamber of Commerce literature is paid for by the people - that's a very broad way of putting it. I don 't know that the Chamber of Commerce is in any business , selling anything, other than what they believe in, and trying to develop things in the Province of Man itoba . They receive their funds from individuals and companies , but are the honourable members saying that people don 't have the right to support what they want to support?

Let's be very clear about that . Mr. Chairman , I would just like to say that when you talk about biases , and you see a guy with a top hat and a cigar, wit h his spats on and tails , strangling the co-op , and the articles about the UGG, etc . and then you have anothe r one that says, " Winnipeg Grain Exchange ", and then you have the grain growers, grain coanies , stand ing, making hand-outs as if that's the way it is, because that' s the way it exactly is - that's bias. That's bias. A MEMBER: Corporate bums. MR. JOHNSTON: Corporate bums , that' s correct.

That 's exact ly what the man said over there , the Member for St . Johns. It came from their NDP election campaign , which they lost on. And, Mr. Chairman , I say again, bias or not, the Minister of Education has said that that can go out and they can make a choice ; it is bias. And the garbage of making extra pamphlets such as this , paid for by the province . . . A MEMBER: The taxpayers are paying for it. MR. JOHNSTON: .. . is just a little bit too far . Just a little bit too far.

The Member for Winnipeg Centre has been around long enough to know that if he was sitting in a classroom, and he got extra pamphlets like that to hand out . .. when I went to school , I had books to read, 1 had things to study . I didn 't have any teacher, or anybody , hand me out extra pamphlets, paid for by the province . MR. BOYCE: First of all, Mr. Chairman , I fully agree with the Minister of Economic Development. The people have the right to join any association that they want, including the Chamber of Commerce.

But the fees for such things are usually tax-deductible, and when he says, "It 's a way-out argument" - it is. It is a way-out argument, but it's still true, that the Manitoba Club fees, for example, are 3123

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 taxdeductible things, and in many instances they are paid directly by the -- you have never heard me, Mr. Chairman, in this House, use the term "corporate welfare bums ." A MEMBER: I heard it from some one. MR. BOYCE: Well, you don 't hear it from me, because the only reason I don't use it. is because, ;: in my mind, it means that those people who work for corporations are burns , and I don't buy that. I don 't buy that. But nevertheless, we give money away.

The argument that there 's a welfare for corporations , as the Minister for Economic Development has just said, he's going to give them $30,000 forgiveable loans, which is state aid. But nevertheless , when the Minister said, "If I had got garbage like that as a teacher, I don't know what I would have done with the particular class that I was dealing with ." -(lnterjection)- Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Agriculture MR. JENKINS: Minister of Enlightenment. MR. BOYCE: . . . says garbage . He classifies this as garbage also .

And when the Minister of Economic Development says that this was presented to the people befo re the last election , that is patently false. There 's 51 percent of the voters in the Province of Manitoba did not vote for that group . And why I think it's important that this is put on the record , is so some of the people who, in my judgment , were misled by that group across the hall, will know full well the next time there is an election, just exactly what they're voting for . The Minister of Agriculture says this is garbage . MR. DOWNEY: It is garbage . MR. BOYCE: It is garbage , he repeats.

I'm putting it on the record , because you don 't stand up and put on the record what you have to say about such things . I expect , Mr. Chairman, with the Minister of Education , I hope , for the teachers in the Province of Manitoba to be professionally responsible for everything that they do in the classroom . And if a teacht3r sees some thing which in their professional judgment is biased , being aware of their own bias, they 'll deal with the situation .

As a guidance counsellor within the system , I had a chap come to me and ask me, " How do I become a rabbi?" It isn't my responsibility to convert him to Christianity ; my prob lem as a teacher is to find out how to get that kid into a rabbinical school. I believe , Mr. Chairman , that this is how the professional teachers in this province will operate . And there 's where the solution to our problem is. The Member for Rock Lake says he doesn 't want teachers in the schoo ls educating the children ; he doesn't want the principals educating the children ; he doesn't want the superintendents educating the children.

He wants them only to give them one point of view . I join the people who , including the Lieutenant-Governor , who pray for the people in the Province of Manitoba, that this isn 't the educational philosophy which will be imposed by that government. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass ; (2)-pass ; (a)- pass . (b)(1), Salaries- pass ; (2)-pass - the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. BOYCE: On Curriculum Development , I understand that there was a study initiated by rather a comprehensive group , I believe in 1976, 1977, to review and update the curriculum from kindergarten to Grade 12.

Could the Minister advise us where this review process stands. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , at this particular point , I can report the following progress in the review that has been going on since we came into office. We have new cu rriculum guides published in Mathematics , K to 6; Music , K to 6 in September of 1978; new guides will be published for Mathematics, 7 to 9; Science, K to 6; Science , 7 to 9; Music , 7 to '9 and trainable mentally handicapped children for introduction in schools, in September of 1979.

I can also report that an early childhood resource publication will be ready for use in September of 1979. Curriculum revision is under way in Language Arts, K to 12; Social Studies , K to 12; Mathematics , 10 to 12; Science, 10 to 12; Physical Education , K to 12; Health Education , K to 12; some vocational and practical 3124 •

... Tuesday, April 24, 1979 arts programs, and various second language areas. Program materials are also being developed for the teaching of English as a second language. I can report to the member that a Career Education Program is being develo ped as an integ ral part of the school curriculum, with particular emphasis on the secondary grades, 7 to 12. Basic objectives for that course are expected to be completed by September of this year , and the complete program ready for field testing by September of 1980.

I can also tell the member that a clear and comprehensive core curriculum statement for K to 12 is being developed . A considerable number of meetings, workshops have been held, to acquaint teachers with new methodologies in the middle junior high years. In this area also, there has been a considerable amount of in-service provided to assist teachers in introducing new programs in Math, Science and Music, and similar support is planned for other curriculum areas as the revisions are completed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR.

BOYCE: I wonder if the Minister could put a little flesh on the bones of his statement that the core subjects should be more structured. Perhaps I'm quoting the Minister out of context and I didn't understand his statement, that it seems to have left the impression that the core subjects within the curriculum should be more structured - just exactly what did you mean by that? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman, just in answering the inquiry of the Member for Winnipeg Centre, I'm not sure what particular statement he's quoting, but I would say, and I have said for some time, that I'm concerned about the establishment of clear provincial goals and objectives in the learning material of the province, particularly in the curriculum guides of the province, and of course we would like to see provision of curriculum guides that identify these goals and objectives and also provide help and assistance to teachers in their implementation.

So, when the member asks about structure, I suppose he's implying what are we invisaging as structure in this case? I would say, study guides, curriculum guides that point out quite clearly expectations in the different subject areas at the different grade levels. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm just guessing, but I believe my colleague from Winnipeg Centre was referring to a news service release dated March 23, 1979, and it's a direct quotation from the Minister, where it says in the opening paragraph: "The Department of Education has made good progress in the past year in the direction of a more structured curriculum for Manitoba schools." This, I believe, was the import of the question, and perhaps to develop it a little bit more, is this a new policy thrust of the Minister , or was the move towards a more structured curriculum, has it been an ongoing thing over many years?

I'm trying to get an understanding of just what it means here ; has it got something to do with back to the basics, and the 3Rs that we hear so much about? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to the Member for St. Vital that it is definitely a new thrust, as I have pointed out, a clear-cut statement in our curriculum guides of expectations that teachers may follow in their particular direction of the teaching process at the different grade levels in their schools. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I'm still really not quite clear as to what a "more structured curriculum" means.

The Minister has mentioned goals and the way that he sees the student tt: developing, and he has also spoken of testing to see whether that has been achieved, but I still don't fully understand what a "more structured curriculum" is. Could he expand a litt le on th at please? MR. COSENS: Well, Mr. Chairman, let me say to the Member for St. Vital, the opposite to a m ore structured curriculum would be a less structured curriculum , a curriculum that does not spell out in any detail what the expectations are at different learning levels in the proce ss.

I'm suggest ing that we are moving to a curriculum that does spell those particular goals and obje ctives out clearly , so that they can be well understood and followed as a guide by the teachers in the classrooms of this province . MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass - the Honourable Member for Burro ws. 3125

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I believe that earlier in the considera tion of the Estimates of this department I had asked the Minister at what point could we debate and obtain some further information about the program announced in the Seeech from the Thro ne, the use of Ukrainian as a language of instruction . I believe the Minister indicated at that time it was under Curriculum Development and you may recall, Mr. Chairman, that my question at that time also made reference to financial support to schoo l divisions offering an education program using Ukrainian as a language of instruction.

He did say that it will be here , which surprised me somewha1t, because I would have thought that all financial support to public schools would have come under Resolution 42 and that whatever assistance there will be to school divisions would have been , if not under School Grants and Other Assistance , would have been under Miscellaneous Grants . However, the Minister did indicate that it's here.

So, therefore, my first question to the Minister is: Could the Minister indicate the level of financial support that he will be offering to those school divisions which will be offering a program in the forthcoming school year using Ukrainian as a language of instruction? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman , it is with some pleasure that I welcome the opportunity to take a minute and discuss this particular program , which is a Heritage Languagt3 Program - languages other than English and French - that we have introduced in a pilot form into the province for the first time this year .

I can tell the Member for Burrows that in the particular English -Ukrainian bilingual pilot programs that we will have in three schoo l divisions th is fall that English will be the language of instruction in mathematics , science and language arts 50 percent of the time ; Ukrainian will be the language of instruction in social studies , art, music , physical educat ion, and the Ukrainian language, of course , will account for the other half .

And I can tell him that the department has committed itself to one class in each of three school divisions commencing in Grade 1, continuing through to the end of Grade 3, and of course that then would take us through to 1981-82 . I can also tell the Member for Burrows that all necessary program texts and teaching materials for the pilot classes will be provide d by the department , and also the necessary professional development and in-service tra ining for thE! teachers involved .

I can also inform the Member for Burrows that supervision and evaluation of the pilot program will also be provided by the Department of Education , and of course , where necessa ry, t he departmen t will provide full teachers' salary costs incurred in the establishment of the pilot classes . While I'm on my feet , Mr. Chairman , it perhaps migh t be the oppor tune tim e for me to remark on some of the comments that the Member for Burrows has made on this

part icular program . Some of them have somewhat surprised me, because as someone of Ukrain ian ancestry , I would have expected that he would have embraced this program ; that he is no dou bt p roud of his ancestry , and would see this as a means for the Ukrainian culture to be carried on in this province , certainly a culture that has produced many many outstanding Canad ians. I believe the Member for Burrows has referred to this in his comments on the Throne Speech , where he seemed to have some doubt as to whether this program would produce good Canadians .

And I sug£1est to him that we have had many outstanding Canadians of Ukrainian ancestry in every walk of life in this prov ince, people who spoke both English and Ukrainian; Ukrainian being the ir f irst tonguE!; people who have been outstanding in letters, university personnel , people in the armed forces , in the professions, every Walk of life, in fact, Mr. Chairman .

And the Member for Burrows also suggested in his comments , and I think he was adopting somewhat of a dog in the manger attitude here , if he will accept the expression , that he was concerned, had we done any research before we had launched into this particular program . Well, Mr.

Chairman, that's rather interesting , because in check ing back I found that his government brought in a program for French in this province , where students could be fully immersed in the French language, somewhere I believe it was around 1970 I believe the legislation was provided, and as far as I can find in the records there was no research done unti l some four years later to, in fact, find out if putting a child in this type of program would , in fact , have any harmful effects on the child 's abil ity to transfer to an Ang lo-phone program , to an English program . Well , the research, Mr.

Chairman , conducted in 1974 in the French language showed , in fact, that there were no stumbling blocks that would be incurred by a child study ing in his native language - French in this case - and then transferring to an English program . So 1 suggest to the Member for Burrows that his apprehension in this regard is ill-founded , what is applicable in the case of those of the French language should be applicable also in the case of the Ukrainian language. So it is certainly a valid point , Mr.

Chairman , that the concern expressed by the Member for Burrows in this regard is not valid , based on the very research that was conducted by his own government in the French language . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows. 3126

Tuesday, April 24, 1979 MR. HANUSCHAK: Well , Mr. Chairman, the reason why I had expressed some doubt and concerns about the proposed pilot program in the use of Ukrainian as a language of instruction was, as I had indicated in the Speech from the Throne, was that I well remember the 60s when the teaching of Ukrainian as a second language was introduced, and it had its problems then too. I believe I had indicated this in the Speech from the Throne, and if I had not, I will mention it now .

The way that the teaching of Ukrainian came into being was this : there was an announcement made that school divisions were allowed to offer the teaching of Ukrainian as a second language, period . Then they had to find their own ways and means of doing it.

Consequently what happened in some school divisions , and I can 't fault them because there is a prescribed program to adhere to, the basics of a prescribed program, and that of course takes up the bulk of the teaching hours in any school day , and hence it was quite difficult for school divisions to work around the already prescribed requi rements and to find time for the offering of Ukrainian. And in some school divisions, and Winnipeg was one of them , where the students had the option, or had the choice between taking shops , which was offered a half day per six day cycle, or Ukrainian .

Now, to teach industrial arts , to teach shops on a half day per six day cycle, it might be a good way of teaching it, but teaching a language in that fashion was not. But anyway, that's water under the bridge , but what I'm saying, Mr. Chairman, is that there were those problems, in getting the program started.

Then the other problem which we were confronted with was that for a number of years the universities would not - now, I should say the University of Manitoba, because insofar as admission to the Faculty of Arts was concerned, there was no problem, I don't think, right from day one, but certainly insofar as admission to other faculties, which at that time still had a second language requirement, Ukrainian was not recognized as an admission requirement .

In other words, if a student wished to enroll in the Faculty of Engineering, Medicine, Architecture, whatever, and if he had standing in Ukrainian but not in French or German or Latin, then of course he was short one subject to meet the necessary admission requirements . Which eventually was straightened away, but it took a number of years. So, you know , with a history of that kind I couldn't help but be a bit apprehens ive about the Minister 's announcement , or the · government's announcement that this program in the Throne Speech in the absence of any further elaboration and explanation of the program.

And then of course I was also apprehensive at that time because not until tonight did the Min ister indicate the level of financial support that he was prepared to offer, and even tonight I'm still not quite certain whether , you know, when he said that he's going to pick up the tab for the teachers ' salaries for the teachers employed in the offering of this program, I'm not quite certain whether that 's merely for the pilot stage or whether that is going to be, you know , once the program comes on track, that the government is going to pick up the salaries for those teachers in the Ukrainian program, because if that's going to be so, then that's going to be somewhat of a departure from the standard practise .

Then I also asked a couple of other questions. I wanted to know who would be eligible to enroll in th is program. In other words , will there be a requirement that the student enrolling in it have a certain basic knowledge of Ukrainian or not? If we're going to offer an education program using whatever language as a language of instruction , I would hope that that program be made universally available to all. In other words , Mr.

Chairman , I don 't know whether your children speak Ukrainian or not , but if you had children of an age to enroll in a public school and you wished to enroll your children , even if they did not s

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-46b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 46b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e450550ed5513a4ab37bb97f27c2d539f2497212

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