Manitoba Hansard — 19 August 1986 (Sitting 72A, 33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-72a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 21 August, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m . OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you , Madam Speaker . On behalf of the Member for Sturgeon Creek , I beg to present the petition of Lt. Col. Lockie R. Fulton ; Col. G. William Manson; Brig . Gen . George G. Aldous ; Lt. Col. David Campbell ; Lt. Col. Norman R. Donogh; Lt. Col. George I. James; Lt. Col. H. G. Johnstone ; David McPhet ridge , Col.; the Honourable Gildas L. Molgat; Capt . The Rev. Thomas Saunders; Col.

Douglas B. Scott; Lt. Col. Robert G. Smellie; Lt. Col. William R. Spence; Lt. Col. Burton F. Waters; Lt. Col. Ronald E. Werry; praying for the passing of

an act to incorporate the Royal Winnipeg Rifle's Foundat ion . MADAM SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions , directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Inkster , that the Report of the Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. C.

SANTOS: Madam Speaker , I beg to present the seventh report of the Committee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your committee met on Tuesday, August 19, 1986 at 10:00 a.m . in Room 254 of the Legislative Building. Your Committee has considered : Bill (No. 38) -

An Act to amend The Securities Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les valeurs mobilieres ; Bill (No. 40) -

An Act to amend The Corporations Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les corporations, And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. Your Committee has also considered : Bill (No . 5) -

An Act to amend The Trade Practices Inquiry Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les enquetes relatives aux pratiques de commerce ; Bill (No. 39) -

An Act to amend The Manitoba Energy Authority Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Regie de l'energie du Manitoba, And has agreed to report the same without amendment . All of which is respectfully subm itted. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS : I move, seconded by the Member for Inkster , that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Committee on Industrial Relations . MR. CLERK: Your Comm ittee met on Tuesday, August 19, 1986, at 10:00 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building and elected Mr.

Smith (Ellice} as Chairman . Your Comm ittee heard representations with respect to the following : On (Bill No. 32) -

An Act to amend The Pension Benefits Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les prestations de pension. Mr. John Corp, Private Citizen Mr. Jim Giesinger , William M. Mercer Ltd. Written Submission: Towers, Perr in, Foster and Crosby On Bill (No . 43) -

An Act to amend The Teachers ' Society Act ; Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur l'Association des enseignants du Manitoba. Mr. Cordell Barker, Manitoba Teachers' Society Your Committee has considered : Bill (No . 41} -

An Act to amend The Private Trade Schools Act ; Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles de metiers privees; Bill (No . 43) -

An Act to amend The Teachers ' Society Act; Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur I' Association des enseignants du Manitoba; Bill (No. 45) -

An Act to amend The Civil Service Superannuation Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la pension de la fonction publique . And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments . Your Committee has also considered : Bill (No . 29) -

An Act to amend The Workers Compensation Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les accidents du travail; Bill (No. 32) -

An Act to amend The Pension Benefits Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les prestations de pension. And has agreed to report the same without amendment. 3200

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 All of which is respectfully submitted. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'd like to table the Quarterly Financial Report for the three month period ending June 1986. MADAM SPEAKER: Notice of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ...

ORAL QUESTIONS MTS - allegations and investigation of MTX and subsidiaries MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for either the Minister responsible for the Telephone System or the Government House Leader. I wonder if they can indicate whether or not a new meeting of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources has been scheduled for next week. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J.

COWAN: I haven't had an opportunity to consult with the Oppositon House Leader yet, but I believe by leave we'd be prepared to have the committee sit this evening if that was agreeable to the members of the opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, we are quite prepared to grant leave subject to the approval of the Member for River Heights. What time, Madam Speaker, may I ask will the committee sit? HON. J.

COWAN: I would suggest again in trying to work things out in a cooperative fashion with the Opposition that 8:00 o'clock would be an appropriate time, and we would have it in the Committee Room running concurrently with the Estimates in the Committee Room that's not being used. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, .1 wonder if, since the Government House Leader is in a cooperative mood whether he'd be prepared to - his side would be prepared ·to grant leave to have witnesses subpoenaed to appear under oath at the committee. 3201 HON. J.

COWAN: Today the members opposite have shown what I believe to be a vast misunderstanding of what happens in committee and the requirement for witnesses attending the committee to tell the truth. They have to tell the truth , they have to give full information by the legislation which provides guidance to us, by all the parliamentary practices that have been going on for generations, centuries.

They have a responsibility to attend and a responsibility to provide full information without having to resort to oath taking , and that has been done on very few occasions in the history of either the House of Commons or any of the provincial Legislatures. It's been done on very few occasions because it is not normally required . It is not normally required because there are very strict rules and legislation applying to the giving of information.

If witnesses before a committee perjure themselves or don't tell the truth, there can be action taken against them by this House which is final and conclusive or there can be action taken against them under the different aspects of the legislation that applies to perjury and to oath taking . I have a very strong · concern, though, given the comments of the Leader of the Opposition yesterday on the media, which I believe shows not only a misunderstanding but a total ignorance of why it is we afford protection to witnesses who come before the committee to tell us the truth and to give factual information.

In an inte rview with CKND last night , the Leader of the Opposition , and I expect he was speaking on behalf of the Member for Pembina and the Conservative caucus , said very distinctly that the testimony, and I quote: " The testimony that we did under oath can then be used as evidence in criminal action , so the whole thing is very complementary, can work, and has worked in the past ." End of quote. Well, he is wrong. He is wrong that that test imony can be used in criminal action .

Anyone appearing before a committee of this House, or before the bar of this House, has the protection and the privileges afforded to them in respect of freedom of speech that each of us has . They have to have that protection afforded to them so that testimony cannot be used in other proceedings unless they perjure themselves so that they can provide free and full informatio n to the committees .

For him to suggest that by the taking of the oath we are going to strip individuals of that protection and that privilege of freedom of speech that is afforded to them under the provisions of not only the legislation, The Manitoba Evidence Act, The Canada Evidence Act and

Section 13 of The Charter of Rights, but also every parliamentarian of any note - Beauchesne, Maingot , Bourinot, whomever, Erskine May - is I think a reflection on their desire not to get at the truth, their desire not to have witnesses testify unller oath , so much as their desire is to grandstand and turn that committee into a circus . We will not allow that to happen on this side.

We believe that protection has been given to them for a good purpose and we will seek to ensure that protection is continued to be afforded to them notwithstanding what they may want to do in respect to stripping individual Manitoban s of the privilege and protection they are now afforded. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition.

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I find it incredible that the Minister who, at one point, along with his Premier, was suggesting it was very, very important that the criminal allegations be proceeded with as fully and as completely as possible, and that when I suggested that a full public inquiry with powers of subpoena could get at the information and the evidence that would be called would be able to be used by the criminal allegation, he's now suggesting we don't want to get at the truth in some way and he's trying to turn that matter on to us.

But , Madam Speaker, we're not interesting in playing political games as this Minister is. MADAM SPEAKER: Question? A MEMBER: What would you have known about MTX without us asking the questions? What would you have known? MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, despite my disappointment that this Minister and this Premier and this government will not allow for witnesses to be subpoenaed to the committee , I ask some further questions then to the Premier with respect to this whole matter .

I want to know: When was the Premier first informed that we have $17 million at risk as a result of the uncertain state of our Saudi Arabian business dealings at the moment? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Just so there be no misunderstanding, the Leader of the Opposition seems to forget, for whatever reason, that his comments respecting the taking of oaths so that the proceedings can be used in criminal action, was in direct relationship to subpoenaing witnesses to this committee . . .

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . assumed when I recognized the Honourable Government House Leader, that he was going to answer the question posed by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. If that is not the case, the question was addressed to the First Minister, who may choose or not choose to answer it. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Is the Premier not prepared to answer the question? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, certainly I have known for the last several weeks that the amount of exposure is $16 million to $17 million .

That assumes, of course, none of that can be recouped; and I believe there were submissions and testimony in committee this morning in respect to that. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, there was information provided to the committee this morning to that effect .

I wonder if the Premier can indicate how he squares the fact that MTX is seemingly unable to recover the money owed to it, almost principally by Sheik Al Bassam 's companies , some $16 million to $17 million , when the sheik is describ ed as still wealthy and I quote , "wealthy " to be describ ed as that today , how is it that we aren 't able then to recover that money? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I don 't whether the Leader of the Oppo sition is referring to some testimony this morning in committee or whether it's press reports or just exactly what the Leader of the Opposition is referring to in his question . But irregardless of the source of his

preamble , that is a matter that will be reviewed and commented upon by the management audit review , as to the extent of risk , the capability of return to the Province of Manitoba, what steps ought to be undertaken in order to ensure a return. The limiting of liability , the extent, that is a matter that I have full confidence in Coopers and Lybrand giving us a full and complete report on than waiting or listening to recommendations from the Opposition. I have much more confidence in Coopers and Lybrand and their report in respect to that matter . MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, when did the Premier and his Minister responsible change from viewing this corporation, MTX, and its operations overseas , as having strong potential to make millions of dollars on behalf of taxpayers to the current characterization of which the Minister responsible has said it is a " a high risk foreign investment" and where he has said in a recent news release that they have doubts about the viability of the company. When did that opinion change? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, insofar as the Saudi Arabian situation , we're fully aware that the downturn which not only Saudi Arabia is confronted with but Alberta and other oil-producing jurisdictions, the impact that has in respect to their economies. Certainly the concerns that have been raised that all members have contributed in that we now have a management audit firm bringing forth their recommendations within a 60-day period , and the appointment of an acting C.O. in the person of Mr.

Charlie Curtis, who we have every confidence insofar as bringing in full and complete recommendations, rather than jumping to conclusions to ensure that we have the fullest recommendation, the fullest report. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that earlier this Session , both this Premier and this Minister responsible expressed strong confidence in the future prospects of this company and are today telling us that indeed the company is a high-risk foreign investment, and I quote from the news release referring to the analysis of opinion as to whether or not the short or long-term operations in Saudi Arabia are viable . They say: " If this government's serious doubts about this are confirmed .. .

" When did these doubts occur, and when did the story change from being one of saying that the company was very strong, had wonderful prospects, to now saying they doubt its viability? When did it change? 3202

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the concerns we have in respect to the operations there have been manifest in the last number of days and , as a result of those concerns, we've appointed a management audit firm that will get to the bottom of the issues there , and will bring in recommendations that we will act upon . MR. G.

FILMON: My further question to the Premier , Madam Speaker, is: when was he first informed of an unsecured, unauthorized loan for $1 .5 million that was made from SADL, our 50-50 subsidiary, to Al Bassam International with the security of a promissory note from Sheik Al Bassam, who we are now being told isn't likely to make good on his debts to MTX? When was he first told of that loan? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition knows that members of the committee were advised this morning by Mr.

Provencher that a loan of $1.5 million was apparently authorized by the Chief Executive Officer of the joint venture, SADL, one Chafe Abou Richeh , if I have his name correctly . That loan had not been authorized by MTX or the SADL board. However, it's our understanding from the information that Mr. Provencher gave this morning that the loan was repaid with interest. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the loan to this so-called wealthy sheikh was being made with money of the taxpayers and ratepayers of the Province of Manitoba, given that it was not authorized by either the board of MTS or MTX , what action does the Premier intend to take on this matter? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, again, this is a matter that the management audit firm is the most appropriate body to make recommendations in respect to. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! A MEMBER: Farmers would like a loan like that right about now. A MEMBER: And 8 percent.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The Honouraole Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, we don't need a management audit to tell us that the loan took place . That was confirmed today in committee . We don't need a management audit to . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Question? MR. G. FILMON: . . . tell us that it was unauthorized. That was confirmed today in committee . What action is the Premier going to take about it? MADAM SPEAKER : That question is repetitive . It's the same as the one he just asked. The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker , my question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System . When was the Minister informed of the $1.5 million loan in Saudi Arabia to the wealthy Sheik Abdullah Al Bassam, and his company? When was he made aware of that loan? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I thought I had indicated just a few moments ago that the committee members - including myself as a committee member - were advised by Mr.

Provencher this morning that there was a $1 .5 million loan authorized by the then president of the joint stock company to a company owned and operated by Sheik Al Bassam . That is the information we received thi s morning. It wasn 't a loan that had been authorized by anyon e in MTS or MTX . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speake r, I have a new question for the Minister responsible for the Telephone System .

On Friday , August 15th, my leader posed a question to the Premier about whether the Premier and, hence , we had hoped the Minister responsible for MTS , would have knowledge of any loans made by MTS to the 100 percent Saudi-owned company. Today , at sta rt of committee , an answer was given by senior executives of MTS that no loan was made . My quest ion to the Minister responsible for MTS is: Did you ask senior executives of MTS and MTX whether any loans had been made as referred to by my leader on Friday? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I recall that I have requested staff on every occasion when questions have been put by honourable members , including the Leader of the Opposition and the Member for Pembina , to provide answers for those questions. I believe I've asked all of those .:inswers to be supplied to me and they 've been supplied either in a committee or in this House .

I believe the honourable member will recall this morning that I called upon the chief executive office r of the Manitoba Telephone System to supply answers for all of the questions that had been put before the committee that were still outstanding or other questions that were placed in the House . I believe that he answered those . MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, given that the Minister posed the question about loans from· MTS, and given the fact that on at least four occasions already those same MTX officials have misled this Minist er in answers given ; I ask the Minister respo nsibl e for MTS whether he asked if any loans were made to the Saud i Ar ab ian sheik by MTS , MTX and the inv es tm en t comp any in Saudi Arabi a. Did the Minister take his respon sibilit y seriously and get to the bottom of that 3203

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 situation with MTS staff or did he simply accept their answer which turned out to be not quite true again, Madam Speaker? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I asked staff to respond to all of the questions that had been put in the House and I've asked staff to cooperate fully with the RCMP in their inquiries; and I've asked those same staff to cooperate fully with Coopers and Lybrand, the management audit firm that will be doing an exhaustive analysis of that operation . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, a questi on to the Min ister responsible for the Telephone System .

As Minister. exactly that, responsible for MTS , did you ask those senior officials whether any loans were being made so that you would be able to assure yourself that no such loans, as referred to by my Leader, were made in Saudi Arabia . Did you ask those specific questions of MTS staff? MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that questions are to be put through the Chair, not directly to a Minister. The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS . HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I have directed staff to provide full information . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

Members cannot dictate the manner in which a Minister answers a question. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I have directed the staff to provide complete information to the RCM Police and to the management audit firm in respect to all questions that have been placed either in this House or that have been put by me to staff in respect to this whole operation. We're going to ensure that there is full accounting in respect to all matters dealing with MTX . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , I have a question for the Premier .

Madam Speaker, given that on four different occasions the Minister responsible for the Telephone System has had to stand up in this House and indicate that he was misled by MTS staff , given that this morning at committee the Minister did not take the questions posed by my Leader seriously last Friday, did not ask any questions of MTS staff as to the involvement of loans to the Saudi Arabian sheik, which we now find they loaned, unauthorized , $1.5 million to a wealthy Saudi Arabian sheik, will the Premier now demand the resignation of the Minister responsible for the Telephone System and replace him with a Minister who will start asking the kind of questions that lead to answers and get to the truth in the MTX affair?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, we've just witnessed the type of action that decries the type of approach that honourable member s across the way would have us proceed in. A statement that the Ministe r got up on, on four occasions in this House , indicated that he had been misled by officials of the Manitoba Telephone System . The Minister has indicated that he is not satisfied that he's getting complete information.

It's as a result of that that thi s Minister , the present Minister responsible for the Telephone System, and this government, have appointed Coopers and Lybrand so that the very allegations that have been raised by honourable members across the way and have concerned the members on this side can be dealt with by one of the most respected worldwide management consulting firms .

Madam Speaker , let me assure you that I have much more confidence in Coopers and Lybrand and that management audit firm than the ability of the Honourable Member for Pembina or anyone of his colleagues across the way to bring in appropriate findings and recommendations so that we can, Madam Speaker, .. . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the very conduct of honourable members across the way in yelling " fools " and all other kinds of allegations in this Chamber . A MEMBER: Cover-up! HON. H.

PAWLEY: ... - and "cover-up " - and decorum , demonstrates their own interest in inquisition, their own interest in Star Chamber; They' re not interested in reality and facts . It's McCarthyism . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, I have a new question for the First Minister.

Given that one month ago we were assured by the Premier and by the Minister responsible for MTS that all was well with MTX, the future looked bright and rosy, and now the Premier and that same Minister responsible are saying we doubt if we will continue to operate in Saudi Arabia based on, as the First Min ister would have you believe, the irresponsible actions of the Opposition . If it weren't for us, Madam Speaker, we would not be even where we are in determining the truth.

My question to the Premier is: Will the Coopers and Lybrand consultant management firm investigating MTS be requiring testimony from senior MTS officials who have misled their own Minister on four different occasions? Will it be required that those same officials testify under oath to Coopers and Lybrand? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I, in fact , recall that the Minister responsible for the Telephone System, rather than saying as alleged by the Member for Pembina, indicated that the Saudi Arabian economy was having difficulty because of the oil decline not unlike the Alberta economy where their friends in Ottawa had to come forward to rescue two large banks in the Province of Alberta because of oil decline . 3204

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 The Minister responsible for the Telephone System some time ago indica ted that there were economic problems in Saudi Arabia and the impact. Madam Speaker, if the Member for Pembina wants to deba te that during the regular process of debate, he is entitled to do that. Madam Speaker, we are not interested in inqu isition or a Star Cham ber.

The evidence at the extent to which the Opposition would proceed in that respect was illustrated by the House Leader only 20 minutes ago in the type of recommendation proposed by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday as to how such a committee would be used to complement criminal proce edings. The Leader of the Opposition exposed for all to see and hear their true intents - Star Cham ber, inquisition - rather than getting to the bottom of the problems that have been raised in this Chamb er. MTS - RCMP investigation, progress of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. J.

MALOWAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Attorney-General. Could the Attorney-General report on the progress of the RCMP investigation into the MTX? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to report th at the RCMP have made consi derable progress. They've interviewed several people. They report to me that in every case those that have been interviewed have been fully cooperative and it provided them with all the information requested and answered all questions asked.

I should point out, incident ally, that answers given to the RCMP under those ci rcumstances can be used in criminal proceed ing s unlike answers before a parliamentary or legislative committee, unlike answers before a Commission of Inquiry, which cannot be used if the witness claims the protection of The Evidence Act. Ans wers given to the RCMP can be used, the others cannot; so I think that should be clear. Finally , in response to the same thing, because that should be known,

Section 122 of the Criminal Code provides that it is a criminal offence to give information, not under oath to a body such as a Committee of the House author ized to receive testimony. So that the question of oath or not oath does not change the character of a criminal offence if somebody gives false information with an intent to mislead. That should be made very clear. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for lnks ter. The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that you've just recognized an Opposition backbenc her, I move that the Leader of the Opposition now be heard MR. D. SCOTT: Madam Speak er, on the same point MR. G. MERCIER: ... seconded by the Member for Pembina, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The motion before the House is that the Leader of the Opposition be now heard. All those in favour? HON. J. COWAN: I'm sorry, if you are accepting . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: If you are accepting that as a motion, I would seek your advice as to whether or not that is a debatable motion. MADAM SPEAKER: My understan ding is that a motion can be made and that by putting it to the House I have accepted it. We are in the process of dete rmining whether the House accepts that motion. All those in favour of the motion, which is that the Leader of the Opposition now be heard, please say aye. All those opposed? In my opinion, the nays have it. And for the information of the House I have, since the beginning of this Session, kept a list as members stand.

I have used the practice of alternating, but I also think members un derstand that when it is now 2:36 p.m. and that members have used almo st two thirds or more than two-thirds of question period and other members have been rising from the beginning, that it is only fair that I follow the list. In fact, I did allow the Member for Pembina in before other members on my list who had risen before the Honourable Member for Pembina. The Honour able Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Yeas and Nays on what? MR. D. ORCHARD: On your motion decision. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, on the motion, not on the remarks that you intervened. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I had already recognized the Honourable Member for ln kster again, so we have passed that order in the proceed ings. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I asked for Yeas and Nays. I am asking for Yeas and Nays, because you have just comple ted your remarks. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. May I remind honourable members of the process. If one is to call for Yeas and Nays, they call for Yeas and Nays immediately after the vote. 3205

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please. I then recog nized the Honourable Member for ln kster to which some members objected. The Honourable Member for lnks ter. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader on a point of order? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes, Madam Speaker , yes. Madam Speaker, you had just ruled that you found in favour of the Nays. You immediately proceeded into making a number of remarks about some record keeping that you had.

Immediately upon conclusion of those remarks, I rose in the House to ask for the Yeas and Nays, which was the first opportunity for me to do so without cutting you off in the middle of your remarks. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, notwithstanding the fact that it is quite obvious that the members opposite now not only want to ask the questions and answer the questions, as they have clearly indicated they want to in the past, they are now indicating that they want to dete rmine who is going to ask the questions, and then next when they will ask the questions and try again to determine the answers.

Notwithsta nding that, and believing that their actions are quite transparent and easily seen through, we on this side have no objection to the Yeas and Nays being taken at this time, and fully expect that they will continue upon their long established path now of attempting to disrupt the busine ss of this House and attempting to keep matters that are of importance to the public of Manitoba out of the purview of this House by these sorts of gorilla tactics in the Legislature, but given that we have no objection to the Yeas and Nays being taken right now and would support their request.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. In the general racket, after I had said that the motion was defeated , obviously the Honourable Opposition House Leader did not hear me call on the Honourable Member for lnks ter. That's quite unde rstandable. I would like to remind members that if they are going to call for a recorded vote, the rule is that they do it immediately. Now, if it's the will of the House to have a recorded vote, I am the servant of the House and we will have a recorded vote. There is no problem with that, and people do not have to lose their tempers. Call in the members.

The question before the House is that the Leader of the Opposition now be heard. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Birt, Brown, Carstairs, Conner y, Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Find lay, Kovnats, Ma nn ess, McCrae, Mercier , Mitchelson, Nordman, Oleson, Orchard, Pankratz, Rocan, Roch.

NAYS Ashton, Bak er, Bucklaschuk, Cowan, Desja rdins, Doer, Dolin, Evans, Harapiak (The Pas), Harapiak (Swan River), Ha rper, Hemphill, Kostyra, Lecuyer, Mackling, Maloway, Parasiuk, Pawley, Penne r, Plohman, Santos, Scott, Smith (El lice), Smith (Osborne), Storie, Uruski, Walding, Wasylyc ia-Leis. MR. CLERK: Yeas, 24; Nays, 28. MADAM SPEAKER: The motion has been defeat ed. I have the Honourable Members for lnk ster, River Heights and Lakeside next on my speaking list. The Honourable Member for ln kster. Shaughnessy Park School - day care MR. D.

SCOTT: Madam Speaker, I have within my constituency four schools that are presently either being constructed or major additions thereto, and I have a question for the Minister of Education. The other day, the Winnipeg School Division decided not to proceed with the construction of Shaugh nessy Park School over a disput e they have amongst themselves in regard to a day care centre to be attached to that school.

My question to the Minister of Education is: Did the Winnipeg No. 1 School Division in their submission to the Public Schools Financ e Board include a request to make that addition or construct that addition on that school to include, No. 1, a day care centre? Also, did they go ahead and instruct their archit ects to build a school with a day care centre as an integral part of the day care centre? Also, did they follow through with that to actually go through the stage of tenders, Madam Speaker, for the construction of that school with the inclusion as an integral part of the day care centre?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the honourable member's interest in this question. I know that it will be of considerable interest to a number of the parents and people in the area of Shaughn essy Park. I can indic ate that, yes, in fact Winnip eg No. 1 did ind icate tha t they would be participating in the establishment of day cares both in new construction and in renovated facilities back in March; and Shaugh nessy Park was indeed in one of those. They have subsequently changed that decision with respect to the day care facilities.

I had an opportunity to meet with the Winnipeg No. 1 board this morning, and we did discuss the issue. I made it very clear to them that the province's commitment and undertakings in respect to day cares were sound, that the letter that my predecessor sent 3206

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 and that I sent subsequently were, in fact, the policy of the government and would be implemented in full. MR. D. SCOTT: A supplementary to the same Minister, the Public Schools Finance Board, I understand, was willing last week to give ap proval for the construction of the school as submitted to tender . The Winn ipeg No. 1 School Division now has delayed that process by the rejection of that. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. A supplementary needs no

preamble, as the honourable member knows. MR. D. SCOTT: Madam Speaker, I thought it would assist in the understanding of the essence of the question, but I'll accept your ruling. Because of the delay so far, the school division will be paying $2,500 a day. Are they . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Does the hono ur able member have a sup plementary question? MR. D. SCOTT: Yes, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: Well, ask your supplementar y question without a

preamble, please. MR. D. SCOTT: Madam Speak er, a question to the Minister of Education, is the Public Schools Finance Board responsible in any way to pay the Winnipeg No. 1 School Division a cost of some $2,500 per day that they are suffering because they did not approve the school last week in the delay of awarding tender? Will that be recoupable from the Public School Finance Board or does the Winn ipeg No. 1 School Division have to absorb that themselves? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker , I do not believe the Public Schools Finance Board would have any responsibility for those costs.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. With your permission, could I defer my question to the Leader of the Opposition? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. If the honourable member doesn't have a question, she does not have to stand to be recognized. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Madam Speak er, I do have a question. MR. H. ENNS: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I think it's my turn. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MADAM SPEAKER: If the honourable members need clarification, I not only keep a list as members rise, but I also refer to the list and see whether the next person on my list has risen. In this case, the Honourable Member for River Heights is on her feet andd I have recognized her. Native Affairs - appointment of advisor MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for Native Affairs. Can the Minister inform the House if he has recently appointed a senior non-political advisor to aid in his responsibilities?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister responsible for Native Affairs. HON. E. HARPER: Yes, we have appointed a person by the name of Lloyd Girman to be our senior Native advi sor. I think that's been put out on the news release tod ay. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question to the same Minister. Will the Minister explain why a government dedic ated to the principle of Affirmative Action and also committed to the concept of self government would appoint as an advisor on Native Affairs, a non-Na tive? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister responsible for Nativ e Affairs. HON. E.

HARPER: Yes, Madam Speaker, we had advertised the position and had open compe tition. The best qualified person was Mr. Girman, and we also had some Nativ e people applying for that position but the qual ifications that were needed to fill the position were such that Mr. Girman had those qual ifications. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: With a final supplementary to the same Minister, Madam Speaker. Is the Minister telling the House that no aboriginal citizen of this province could be found with the talents, education and empathy to fill this most important position? HON. E.

HARPER: Madam Speaker, we have many people who are qualified, but unfortunately those people who were qua lified didn't apply for the job. As a matter of fact, we had sought some people to app ly, but declined to apply for the position. I might say that, as being Minister of Native Affairs, it's about time we changed the situation around where Native people are being told what to do by white people, in this case I'm advised, a non -Treaty person. Committee hearing - hour of adjournment MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker, a question to the Government House Leade r. Further to his information with respect to this even ing's sitting of the Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources, can the Government House Leader assure us that, in view of the fact that we have 3207

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 passed no speed-up motion, that traditional hours will be maintained with respect to the committee sitting tonight; in other words, adjournment at or near ten o'clock. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: What I can assure the Member for Lakeside is that we will continue to work to the extent possible. I believe that it has worked to date to arrange in a cooperative fashion the times and the sittings of public hearings of comm ittees as much as is possible.

We have not, on every occassion, been able to agree as to exactly when a commit tee should sit, but I believe with the cooperation of the Opposition House Leader - and that has been forthcoming in all instances - we have been able to work out a suitable arrangement to make certain that the business of the comm ittees proceeded in an expeditious way. If the members opposite - and this is done in the House at all times by leave - if the members opposite wish the comm ittee to rise at ten o'clock and the business has been condu cted to their satisfaction, we will rise at ten o'clock.

If they bel ieve by continuing on beyond ten o'clock to a limited extent be it, you know, 5, 10 minutes, a half-hour or an hour, if that's agreeable to both sides, we'll proceed in that mann er. But I think the cooperation which has been exhibited by all members opposite has allowed us to fulfil! our role as opposition and as government in a responsible way and I would expect that it would continue. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. It has really to do with House Business.

As a result of the relatively short notice with respect to that committee meeting that's sitting, I wonder if the Government House Leader would unde rtake to have the draft transcripts of this morning's proceed ings available to committee members so that we can facilitate the workings of that committee in the best possible way. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, I look to you in that the Hansard transcription is really a matter that falls under the purview of the speaker but I would be prepared to encourage to whatever extent possible, that those transcripts be available as soon as possible, if the members opposite are telling me that they would prefer that work to be done and the other work that would normally be done to be put aside so that we could have those transcripts available. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could make a non-political statement.

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) NON-POLIT ICAL STATEMENTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. 3208 MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I would ask all members to join with me today to wish Happy Birthday to a very important person in our midst, Kerri Stalker, who is our young page person here. I think we should all honour a very important day, the age of majority today . We would should wish her a Happy Birthday. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J.

McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I rise to seek leave of the House to make a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I think I speak for all members of the House, certainly those who were participants, in thanking members of the media for inviting MLA's to engage in a game of baseball last evening and also in commenting favourably on the grace displa yed by members of the media when they were so decisively defeated by the ML A team.

Madam Speaker, members of the media, as well as honourable members, will join me also in thanking the Honourable Member for River Heights and Mr. Carstairs for their kind hospitality last evening after the game. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Yes I would like to add to the comments made by the Member for Brandon West and ind icate cer tainly from our side, we enjoy the opportunity to join as a team as MLA's and play the media, obviously with a successful result. I'm sure I speak for all members in marking the many great individual contributions, particular one contribution.

That was the fact that there was one home run in that game hit by Slugger from lnks ter and I'm sure we all would like to credit him for a tremendous performance yesterday . COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: I'd like to announce a change in the Public Utilities Committee: the Member for Fort Rouge substituting for the Member for Dauphin. SPEAK ER'S RULING MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Orders of the Day , I have a ruling I would like to present to the House.

On August 11 th I took under advis ement a matter of privilege, raised by the Honour able Member for Pembina, alleging that the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System had misled the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. I have reviewed the Committee and House Hansards for July 17 and August 11 and have noted that the answers provided by the Minister on these dates to

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 questions which were essentially identical in substance contrad icted each other. In order to be proceeded with, a Matter of Privilege, as members know, must comply with the following requirements: 1. The matter must be raised at the earliest opportunity. 2. The member raising the matter must conclude his or her remarks with a motion proposing a remedy or solution. 3. Sufficient evidence to suggest that a breach of privilege has occurred must be presented to warrant giving the matter precedence over the regularly scheduled business of the House.

I am satisfied that requirements 1. and 2. have been complied with. With respect to the third requirement, the presentation of sufficient evidence to suggest that a breach of privilege has occurred, the following excerpts from the authorities are relevant: Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada states on page 205 that "a second procedure akin to privilege because it would entail the disciplinary powers of the House and would gain the same precedence in debate relates to the conduct of a member.

A member of the House of Commons who, for example, has adm itted to have deliberately misled the House, would probably forthwith be the subject of a motion for contempt. " Similarly, Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice, page 14 9 states: "that the House may treat the making of a deliberately misleading statement as a contempt.

In 19 63 the House resolved that in making a personal statement which contained words which he later admi tted not to be true, a former member had been guilty of a grave contem pt." On page 205, Maingot also makes the following observations respecting the distinction between misleading and deliberately misleading: "To allege that a member has misled the House is a matter of order rather than privilege and is not unparliam entary whether or not it is qualified by the adjective unin tentionally or inadv ertent ly.

To allege that a member has deliberately misled the House is also a matter of order and is indeed unparlia mentary; however, deli berately misleading statements may be treated as a contempt." From the foregoing extracts from the authorities, it is clear that a member has breached the privileges of the House or committed a contempt against the House by misleading the House or a Committee only if the member has clearly done so deliberately.

In this Session, members have been reminded on several occassions that it is unparli amentary to allege that a member has deliberately "misled" the House, for example, during the Bud get Debate, Ha ns ard page 406, and in Committee of Supply, Ha nsard page 11 80. Similarly, the House was informed that "misled" has in the past been found both parliamentary and unparliament ary, Hansard, Page 12 71. The motion offered by the Honourable Member for Pembina refers to the Minister having "misled" the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources rather than having "deliberately misled" it.

In view of the pre viously qu oted extract from Ma ingot, the honourable member's use of the term "misled," without any qual ifying adjective, has caused me to believe that the member may have had a matter of order rather 3209 than one of privilege. A member raising a matter of privilege which charges that another member has "deliberately misled" the House or a comm ittee must support his or her charge with proof of intent. No such proof was presented by the Honourable Member for Pembina.

In addition, the House has been requested to deal with a matter which occurred in a committee, but which the committee has not yet reported to the House. Beauchesne's Citation 76 says, in part, "Breaches of privilege in commit tee may be dealt with only by the House itself on report from the committee." As the honourable member's matter of privilege charged the Minister with misleading the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resouces and not the House, the committee is where the matter of privilege should have been raised at the earliest opportunity.

The Order Paper and Notices for Monda y, August 11 th, ind icated that the committee was to meet the next morning, August 12th, at 10:00 a.m. That, therefore, was the appropriate time and place for the member to raise his alleged matter of privilege. I, therefore, rule that the honouable member's matter of privilege is out of order for two reasons. First it should have been raised where it is alleged to have occurred; that is in the committee. Second, when raised in a committee, the member would have had to establish tha t the Min ister had "deliberately misled" the commit tee, which requires proof of intent.

May I remind honourable members of Beauchesne's Citation 17 , which states: "A question of privilege ought rarely to come up in Parliament. It should be dealt with by a motion giving the House power to impose a reparation or apply a remedy. A genuine question of privilege is a most serious matter and should be taken seriously by the House." The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

With all due respect, in view of the fact that you find that the Minister made directly contradictory statements and then merely go on at length to get the Minister off the hook, I would challenge your ruling. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Opposition House Leader challenging your ruling, Madam Speaker, but to suggest motives on your part, that is "to get the Minister off the hook" is quite unp arliamen ta ry, and I would request that the Opposition House Leader withdraw those remarks.

MADAM SPEAKER: There is nothing wrong with the Honourable Opposition House Leader challenging my ruling. I would ask him to withdraw reflections as to my intent in making the ruling. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Opposition House Leader.

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , in view of the fact that I disagree with your ruling, I would challenge your ruling. MADAM SPEAKER: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in favour of upholding the ruling of the Chair, please say Aye; all those opposed, please say Nay. In my opinion, the Ayes have it. MR. G. MERCIER: On division, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained, on division. HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Just to indic ate that this evening when we are running the three commit tees concurrent ly, for reasons having to do with the sound equipment, and I've discussed this matter with the Opposition House Leader - I apologize for not having an opportunity to discuss it with the Member for River Heights yet - but we would suggest that the Public Utilities Committee take place in Room 255 tonight and Supply in Room 254, and that's only to do with the sound system and availabil ity of microphones. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speak er, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty. It's my und erstan ding that Natural Resources will be reviewed in the Chamber and, in the comm ittee room, we will be beginning the review of the Department of Government Services. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital on a point of order. MR. J.

WALDING: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, your ruling today dealt with an item which occurred on August 11 th, and this Assembly's presiding officer took a matter under advisement on July 30th, which is three weeks yesterd ay, with a promise to report back to the House. I don't know whether it was done, and perhaps I missed it, or perhaps you could advise when it will be reported back. MADAM SPEAKER: That particular matter was taken under advis ement by the Deputy Speaker in my absence, and I will be reporting back on it.

MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Government Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SER VICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee please come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Go vernment Services, Page 78, Resolution 75.

Prior to line-by-line review of the Estimates, the Minister will make an opening statement. The Minister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to keep the opening statement short. I have a couple of pages of major priorities, of which I've given copies to the Opposition. Just for the information of the Committee, the Department of Government Services is charged with providing a wide range of central support services to government departments, as well as some agencies, boards, corporations and commissions involved with the govern ment.

These services include desig n, construction and management of government buildings as well as supply and management of common commodities and services. In the year ahead, my department faces the challenge of providing these services within an environment of scarce resources, as has been the case in the last number of years. This means providing acceptable quality service to client departments at a reduced cost to government wherever possible.

Our efforts to meet this challenge are demons trated by the fact that if one is to exclude MPIC lease payments from the 19 85-86 and 19 86-87 operating budgets, my departme nt's Estimates for this year are only 1 percent higher than last year's. Government Services expenditures are often directly related to client demands and spending. To manage this, my staff must be proactive in identifying, proposing and implementing alternatives so cost savings can be realized in the delivery of support services.

In accordance with this, Government Services has implemented a number of programs to produce efficient and cost-saving operations. A new Planning Branch is being established within the Project Services Division to provide longer term stategies in the areas of government accommodation and service needs. I believe that will reduce costs and give us a better handle on space requirements for client departments. As well, our departmen t's ongoin g energy mana gement program has been effective and has realized cost savings in the past several years.

For example, last year, a five percent incr ease in electrical, sewer and water costs in some areas was more than offset by a general reduction in energy costs relating to energy management and there have been millions of dollars, I think in the neighbourhood of some $7 million over the last seven or eight years realized in this program. A new program has also been implemented for the cleaning of government buildings and it has substantially 321 0

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 reduced operating costs in this area. In fact, our overall cleaning, maintenance and building operating costs are now lower than the national average. During the past year my department has incorporated an element of control within its operating and service manda te. In this expanded role, Governnent Services is faced with the challenge of proposing service provision alternatives in response to client demands while maintaining a balanced focus on efficiently addressing overall government needs.

In other words, we are not just responding in a service-oriented manner to request from client departments, but moving more toward critiquing the proposals in request from client departments and providing alternatives that may be more cost-ef ficient. In other words, a more controlled mechanism. In keeping with this manda te, the department has been involv ed in a detailed assessment of overall government space needs, and has also been active in cond ucting critical analysis projects on behalf of Treasury Board.

In addition, Government Services is continuing in its role as managing and leasing agent for Gimli Properties and departmental staff are now involved with Manitoba Business Development and Tourism in the planning of potential privatization of these properties. To this end, meetings have been held with the communi ty involved and the strategy for privatization is being developed in consul tation with com muni ty gr oups and the individuals involv ed at Gimli Properties busine sses there.

The housing component of the properties has already been turned over to Manitoba Housing and they are upgrading the units for sale as condominiums. Within the manda te of service provision, my staff are presently involv ed in soliciting client feedback on our service performance of the departmental automations assessment and an internal audit review of opera tions. The department has also been very active in the area of Affirmative Action and is currently in the process of implementing a comprehensive Affirmative Action plan.

The Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board recently enhanced its service and efficiency in dealing with spring flooding compensation. This year the board cond ucted immediate inspections of reported property da mage. The previous year's inspection did not take place until all reports for both private and public damages had been received. This amended procedure allo wed for prompt determination and, I think, a more accurate determination of compensation eligibility and we hope, therefore, quick repayments to affected individuals and mun icipalities.

Service and effect iveness of the Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization was also enhanc ed this past year through the development of new emergency plans for 14 additional communities. In addition, EMO is presently assisting 39 communities in the development of plans and has helped in the updating of 66 others. There are now 10 7 emergency plans in place in Manitoba, and we're working toward a goal of having all 201 mun icipalities and 50 Northern communities equipped with plans. My department is also involv ed in several capital construction projects of note.

These include renovation and restoration of the A.A. Heaps Building at Portage and Garry; construction of a physical activities building for the Manitoba Developmental Centre in Portage la 321 1 Prairie; continued renovations to the new Law Courts complex, and fire and safety upgrading to Headingl ey Correctional Institute, the Norquay Building, Brandon and Selkirk Mental Health Centres. This year, there's been a change in the funding mechanism for major capital projects.

Funds to facilitate this are now being provided th rough Man itoba Properties Incorporated; a total of 37.5 million has been set aside within The Loan Act for MPI to address capital construction programs. Manitoba Government Services will continue to manage these programs on behalf of the corporati on. This arrangement provides funds to meet current requirements within the 1986-87 Capital Construction Program and also allows the government to respond swiftly to favourable acq uisition or construction opportunities that may arise throughout the year and that would be cost effective for the government.

During the present fiscal year, my department will continue in its control and service role and will attempt to efficiently balance these two functions in the best interests of client departments and the public we serve. That is my statement, except to offer my thanks to the staff who are sitting at the back of the room and others in the department for their hard work and dedication this past year. I'm looking forward to another year of the same kind of dedication and support from them and I'm sure that will be forthcom ing.

At this time then, I'll close my statement and if the Opposition have some comments before we ask staff to come up, that will be fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to the Minister for his opening remarks and supplying us with a copy of them. I don't think you'd want a copy of my remarks; they are not typewritten. But I would like to outline a couple of areas that we will be interested in exploring as we go through the Estimates and I would like to touch on a couple of things that you mentioned in your opening remarks.

First of all, myself and the Member for Turtle Mountain are new Critics so we may be asking questions that yourself and staff feel are of a daily housekeeping nature. At the same time, we want to be able to clearly under stand the department and make sure that we have a clear picture of its operations and its internal management in particular .

I think we'll be trying to determine facts to be able to und erstand the relationship with your department and the various departments which you refer to as clients regarding the payback and cost accounting and how internal accounting is done in relationship to work that is done or supplies that are made by Government Services to various departments. We'll be interested in how certain services are provided and how they tie into letting of contracts and tendering. We'll be asking you questions on parking and security.

I'm interested and pleased to see that the government and Government Services has implemented energy saving programs. It is some thing that I'm qu ite interested in and would be interested in exploring some

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 of the details on what the department is doing in this area. Myself and my party have some concerns about MPI becoming involved in construction role in association with Government Services and certainly I think you can expect some detailed questioning in that area , because it seems to me that it may be leading into an area that causes a great deal of concern and a difference in philosophy between yourselves and the philosophy that we have regard ing government control and control by elected officials .

I think that , within your department, there are a couple of areas that have performed in a manner that , well, they will receive some critiques. I hope the critiques are taken in terms of enabling them to better their service s to the community and through the offices of the department, but certainly the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board, there are some questions in that area , but there also are some bouquets . The same is true for the Emergency Measures Organization and their response.

We would be interested in hearing of any new plans in that area , and the updating of the services that are supplied through that area. Certainly , as I pointed out, there are some credits , and there will be some questions that we would like to ask. With those few remarks , Mr. Chairman , I think the best thing for us to do would be to start going through the line -by-line Estimates . We can take as much time as we can to get the information that we want , rather than exchanging positions . MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. If staff would like to come forward now. The Minister of Education. HON. J.

STORIE: On a point of order , I believe that there are rules applying to committee which make this a smoke -free environment. For those of us who do not smoke and find it very aggravating both in a physical and an emotional sense, I would ask that we adhere to the rule . MR. CHAIRMAN: I remind honourable members that the rules of the committee are that this is a no smoking area during committee hearings . Members are requested to please refrain from smoking . The Minister of Government Services . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to introduce the members of the staff who will be working with us this afternoon. Eric Harbottle, first of all, is the Deputy Minister . Gerry Varazik (phonetic) is the Executive Director of Administration . Gerry, you may as well sit right here . We're going to start with administration. We also have Stu Ursel, who is the Acting Executive Director of Property Management right at this end, division; Charlie McIntyre, the Executive Director of Supply and Services Division sitting next to Stu .

George Fische (phonetic), the Executive Director of Project Services Division is next ; and also Jack De Zeeuw, Director of the Land Acquisition Branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. We will begin with Item 1., Resolution 75. Deferring Item 1.(a), we'll begin with Item 1.(

b) Executive Support. The Memb er for Ste . Rose . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman , I'm inter ested in starting with one sma ll number here und er Other Operating in your explanatory note s. It changed from $1 ,600 to $4,400.00 . Is there any reason why that numb er has gone up when oth er designated areas have gone down ? MR. CHAIRMAN : The member is referring under Item (bX2). Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The member is referring under item (bX2) , is that correct? MR. G. CUMMINGS: Yes, if we can deal with (b)(1) and (bX2) togeth er. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Sure . MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Under Executive Support, the question that I'd be interested in is depa rtm ental out of-province travel. Can we have some exampl es of where this would be used and for what reaso n? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We do have actually a very limited travel budget in this department compared to some, because of the nature of the department and a conscious effort to consolidate all expenditures for out of-province travel in one appropriation , which is unlike many other departments where it is consolid ated .

A few years ago, I can tell you that this was in the neighbourhood of some $30 ,000 , and over the last couple of years it 's been reduced , the last four years, down to a figure of 14,000 now. There's usually a Deputy Minister's meeting, a conference, that is held once a year and sometimes other ad hoc requirements for the Deputies to meet on specific issues .

There ' s also a federal-provincial conference of Ministers of Public Works and Supply and Government Services that takes place once a year, and a number of other professional committees, technical workshops, that are held, such as the Purchasing Management Association of Canada Conference last year, Technical Workshop on the topic of Networking Automated Building Control Systems , 4th Canadian Building Congress Seminar, the Canadian Intergovernmental Energy Management Committee Meeting - those kinds of things. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you .

I would like to move on, then, unless there are other questions in this area . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain . MR. D. ROCAN: Just a short question to the Minister . I see a reduction in Salaries here of approximately $16,000.00 . Can the Minister elaborate a little bit why? Did somebody take a cut in pay, or? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, there's a reduction in the staff turnover allowance of some $20,000.00 . That is the review that was undertaken this past year by the department to do a detailed analysis of its historical 3212

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 projected staff turn over , al lowance in each appropriation. As a matter of fact, you'll find that throughout the department, when looking at the Supplementary Information, something called Staff Turnover. The members will notice that and it is a reduction in the allo wance for salaries, based on the historical record of turnov ers, as opposed to the percentage that was used previously and budg eted for; so there's been actually a reduction in the amount budgeted for salaries based on the historical actual turnov er of staff and the actual numb ers ne eded.

So that's why there's a reduction as well as, I believe, the conversion of an executive assistant position to a secretarial position which is less dollar s. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)( 1) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Just to follow on that question for a moment, there are several places in the Estimates where I noticed there was a change in the amount, or elimination of the amount that was allocated under staff turn over. What is that an indication of? Are you saying that the staff is more stable within the department or that the staff being hired is of a lower cost? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No.

As I tried to indicate, you will notice if you look through the Supplementary Estimates, that there is a line called "Less staff turnover" in almost every situation; and that is just a more accurate reflection in budgeting of the costs of providing for staff and it reflects a more accurate vacancy rate that has been prevailing over the last number of years.

I believe the previous allo wance was .5 percent budge ted - 99.5 percent of salaries were budgeted for - of actual salaries of people working there, keeping in mind that you have vacancies in the year and you really don't have to budget 100 percent of the salaries that are needed for every indi vidual because of vacancies that occur. In the past there was an allowance, a reduction from the 100 percent of salaries by .5 percent. Now we've reduced that down to 1.8 percent, so we're really budgeting to 98.2 percent of projections or actual costs of salaries per year.

Everybody worked a whole year and there were no vacancies whatsoever. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I would like to pursue this a little further, and perhaps further down in some of the other departments, because that would indicate to me - and I would have to relate this to other departments - but that would indicate to me that either there are vacancies there that need to be filled or that we have been over budgeting for salaries, prior to the implementation of this, by about 1 pe rcent. Would tha t be a fair conclusion? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well it could be an interpreta tion, of course. This was based on a study.

The fact is that probably the Department of Government Services was budgeting a little higher for salaries overall than most government departments, and that we are now about consistent with other government departments. That is something which wasn't caught or dealt with or picked up in budgets in the past, but it is something we are now adjusting for, by allowing for a vacancy rate, in terms of costs and budg eting which reflects the experience - not a conscious decision. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay, I accept the Minister's reply.

I would just say that in departments other than this where I would have seen that, I would be concerned that possibly certain positions were being deliberately left vacant, but I accept that it's a normal course of events in this sort of service-oriented department. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well I think it's a normal course of events in all departments, but that does not mean that there are not vacancies deliberately not filled as quickly as they could be filled at times, in order to meet certain targets for reduction in expenditures.

An attempt is made in that regard to do it in the least sensitive areas where we think it can be done, but that is part of management in terms of meeting targets and keeping expenditures down as low as possible. There is, from time to time, an effort made to reduce expenditures by not filling as quickly , but that is not reflected in these figures. MR. G. CUMMINGS: One last question, and it should be pursued, I understand, I am sure under Personnel, but this brings into question the hiring practice - and correct me if I'm wrong - but does the department follow a hiring practice of 90 days to fill a position?

It could be very easy to have an accumulation of 90 days which would be a consid erable savi ngs to the department. I'm not necessarily being critical here, Mr. Minister. I'm trying to determine if that is one of the factors that would affect this? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We can get the average fill time to replace an individual once a decision is made to replace. Sometimes there are evaluations done as to the necessity of that position and whether it should be reclassified, and so on. But if the position is filled in the same capacity as it was previously, there are no 90 days to do it. There's no given amount of time.

It can be done much quicker than that, and is, in sensitive positions that are absolutely required. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Following on that, I would like to ask a couple of questions on the explanatory notes that are included here. By the way, I want to compliment the department on the Supplementary Information that we've been given. I want to also for the record state that we were given this information before it was in the bound form and it got to us in good time so that we could do as good a job as possible in this process. That's appreciated.

My interest would centre around the development of pol icies and proc edur es for the manuals, development of policies which have government-wide implications. It would seem to me that from the staff allocation and the responsibilities involved here, do we keep four people busy under management support, working on policy development? MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could just suggest to the member. My understanding is we still have not passed 1. (b). You're on 1. (

c) now? 3213

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'm sorry, I'm on Management. MR. CHAIRMAN: Executive Support, I've been asking for pass on 1. (b)(1) and 1. (b )(2) and haven 't heard any thing. 1. (b)(1) -p ass; 1. (b )(2)-pass. Ok ay, so yo u'r e deal ing with 1. (

c) Mana gement Support. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Now the question is in relation to, Mr. Chairman, I just want to be clear, the two additional staff in the area from 4 to 6 in the managerial professional area? Is that really what . . . MR. G. CUMMINGS: How it is that they were able to be moved in there, which amounts to an expansion in this area, I assume, and to make use of them in the areas I mentioned where we're talking about policy development and program overview; are there four people fully employed, involved in that and production of the Session Book?

Ther e must be more of a workload, I would suggest, than what is indicated in the breakdown in the supplementary here. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think it's necessary to have a good management support function to ensure that there is a constant review of the operations of departments, various sect ions of the department. The planning studies to provide information to various sections of the department are needed. What we had here was a transfer from another

section of the department, not an addition, an add on, insofar as SY'S are concerned. It's just a shift of priority within the Administrative Branch or Administrative

Section of the department, from Finance and Budgets to this particular area of Man agement Support. So what we are dealing with, and there were some examples given in the Supplementary Information, not just one example that the member referred to about preparing a Session Book. There were a numb er of examples. They have developed last year a planning calendar for the overall department. They prepared the strategic program overviews for Treasury Board and Cabinet consideration.

They prepared the Minister's Issues Book which is done each year to ensure that the Minister is on top of all of the issues in the department which he may have to answer for in the House. They prepared the Management Information Systems Report and prepared the Affirmative Action preliminary plan; developed polic ies and procedures for Client Services Manual; developed policies and procedures for Administrative Services Manual. They've completed review of the Project Services section.

They have assisted the consultant in conducting a study in the Land Acquisition Branch to see where procedures could be amended to more effectively res pond to the needs. They ha ve completed a prelim inary survey anal ysis on client services; coordi nated an in terd epartmental and private consultant study on lease purchasing for financing office accommodation; conduc ted a first phase study on departmental tendering and contracting.

A commun ications function is also in that area preparing news releases; coordinating building openings; developing department commun ication strategy; developing emergency commun ications stategy in conjunction with the Emergency Measures Organization, EMO. They prepared publications. They prepared the 19 84- 85 departmental Annual Report.

They prepared the brochure on "Your Rights Under Expropriation," in conjunction with the Land Acquisition Branch, so the public individuals who are being expropriated know what their rights are; prepared brochu res on EMO's functions in conjunction with EMO; prepared the first draft document of energy conservation literature.

And there is a whole range - oh, there are more: policy procedures development, developed Freedom of Information Policies/Procedu res in anticipation of the declaration of The Freedom of Information Act; they developed selection methodology for general artwork purchases; developed policy for use of government buildings by non-profit organizations.

They have also been preparing legislative amendments to a number of acts that are administered through this department, including The Land Acquisition Act, The Public Works Act, The Emergency Measures Act, and so on, that there will be amendments coming forward in future legisla tive sessions. There is a whole range of additional studies and a similar type of activities for the next coming year which is planned. I could go through those, and it would be an even longer list than I've given so far, but that is the natur e of the functions in that area. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, I under stand from the Minister's explanation that the people are therefore gainfully employed. I was interested when I saw a transfer to this department and I realized that they came from Finance, I believe it was, where . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Within this

section of the department, not from another department, not the Department of Finance. I just want to clarify it. It's not a transfer to this department; it's a transfer within the department. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay, thank you. I guess when I saw that one of the responsibilities was coordinating proposed legislative amendments, and in my brief period here I haven't seen a lot of activity in that area or prod uction of press releases on behalf of the department.

Government Services, to me, is not a department that necessarily needs a high profile in that respect, so I believe I had reason to question where the people were being employed. MR. D. ROCAN: How many weeks is a staff year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: 52 - that's one year. MR. D. ROCAN: That's what they go by. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to respond to what the Member for Ste. Rose was saying 3214

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 just now that he didn't think that there was a lot of activity in that area. You don't always see the results of activity. For example, in the area of legislation, the same year that there is activity taking place there is a lot of researc h, consultation and development that takes place before

an act is ready to be put into the Legislature by the Minister; and in the area of government purchases and the emergency measures areas there is a lot of thought and development taking place at the present time to revamp those acts to reflect the current practice because they are outdated. So, in that area, there is certainly a lot of work to be done.

As well, in the communications area, it may not seem that the Government Services Department deals that much with the public, although we do in the areas of disaster assistance and emergency measures; but there is an internal public that we can't forget and that, of course, is all of the clients that we deal with as well - the departments that we serve as a Government Services Department. There can very well be, in many cases, breakdowns in understandings about how things work and the service provided if there isn't good communic ation between those departments.

So there is a role that has to be provided there in analyzing how we serve the other departments and how we can better serve the other departments. MR. D. ROCAN: Can the Minister tell us the job classifications that exist within this department? Are we talking about seven or eight employees? I would also like to know their job descriptions and/or titles. HON. J. PLOHMAN: In Ma nagement Support, and I believe the member is asking about the seven SY's this year, and the member is asking for the job description of those seven.

Well, there are six in the managerial and professional area - senior officers, planning program analysts. Are these the people? I'm not sure what the member wants in terms of the salary range or the classificat ion. I could give you words like PM2, PM4? MR. D. ROCAN: That's right, yes. HON. J. PLOHMAN: There are five PM2's, one PM4 and one AY3. MR. D. ROCAN: The job descriptions and/or titles of those? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I can give you those.

There is the communic ations coordi nator, admin istrative secretary , manager of mana gement support, policy and program analyst, special projects analyst, planning and program analyst and another planning and program analyst. Most of them are called planning and program analysts. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I would just like to point out to the Minister, in the 1984-85 Annual Report, under Management Support, it points out that the commi ttee support coordinated the Internal Polic y, Planning and Review Commit tee.

The comm ittee consi sts of management representatives from each division and is accountable to the executive committee for planning various policy media and for reviewing new or revised policies. Now that was what led me to ask the question about involvement with media. By media here, are you referring to the vehicle? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Office Supplies and Word Processing Services, I see a reduction in both those categories, but then I see an up in Other Operating.

Am I led to believe that Office Supplies or Word Process ing Services have been underbudg eted and they were able to dr aw from this Other Operating? MR. CHAIRMAN: The member is referring to items under 1. (c)(2), is that correct? The Minister for Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think there has been an effort to more accurately reflect again in a similar way that we did this with staff turn over.

The department has made an in-depth effort to ensure that each of these in preparation - you see the supplementary information has been prepared this year for use of the Opposition and for public use for the first time. This has never been provided to the Opposition for the purposes that we have this year. It's an added feature that was put in a couple of years ago with some departments from our government and we've contin ued to add departments to that process. Next year, for example, Highways and Transportation will also have this kind of supplementary information.

So, certain ly, in showing this information in this way, there was a concerted effort to ensure that it accurately reflects the experience of the previous years in that kind of detail and breakdown. So what we have now is rather than a change in practice or policy with regard to expenditures or emphasis, basically, a more accurate reflection of where dollars were spent. MR. D. ROCAN: I can go through. The telephone decrease - there is a $1 ,000 decrease - results from a reduction in the numb er of lines and reduced utilization of long-dis tance cha rges.

Office supplies, $1 ,400, decrease in expenditures anticipated due to concentr ated effort on the part of staff to minimize utilization of supplies, word processing services 1, 400, reduced reliance on Word Processing Centre for typing of large reports and other high volume written materials; office electronic typewriters are now being used to full capacity; other operating, incr eased results from incr eased utilization of photocop ying, printing and creative services; also, from rental charges for electronic typewriter which has not been budgeted in previous years. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1) -p ass; 1. (c)(2)-pass. 1. (

d) Finance and Budgets - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: I believe this is where the audit personnel exist under this expenditure and we are 321 5

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 looking at $574,500 in salaries. How many persons does he have within his department that can go into another branch of the department and do an audit? Could the Min ister elaborate to what extent they will go in and approximately how long will they stay in another department? Could he use an example of one of the departments and could he give us a sample of the kinds of results he has been able to see? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay.

It's difficult when we have a couple of my colleagues that are heckling so I didn 't hear all of the details of the question but I believe he wanted to ask , first of all, how many are involved in Internal Audit that can go into other sections. First of all, that is two people, one internal auditor and an assistant to the internal auditor. They have undertaken a number of audits internally. The member asked for a specific example of where some of his recommendations have resulted in greater efficienc ies, I would think , in the department . I will try to get to that in terms of specific examples of efficiencies .

Now, the internal auditor function has been in place in the department for, I believe , about three years . This past year, the internal auditor looked at Leased Properties, Telecommunications Branch, Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board, Office Equipment Branch, Internal Audit Manual, Fleet Vehicles, Physical Plant District No. 1, Personnel and Payroll, Material Supply . I could choose some examples where there's been specific savings .

One of them might be the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board which I've been kind of anxious to get to tell the Opposition because this is a major change from when they were in government dealing with the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board, where there used to be a pre-audit done by an outside accounting firm that was hired to review all payments that were to be made before they were actually made.

So it was really a pre-audit of claims through the Disaster Assistance Board rather than having staff process these and then have an audit done by the Provincial Auditor or by an independent firm as is done in most cases with auditing . They had pre-audits rather than having the staff do it. We estimate that the cost of reviewing the claims files by the externa l accounting company was estimated at $150,000 per year which certainly was a waste of taxpayers' money for emergency expenditures. Now that is being saved and done by the staff at the Disaster Assistance Board.

Then the final audit is done by the Provincial Auditor, as is done with all other government departments. So there's an example where the internal audit function , along with the work of the secretary of the board have identified an area where there were inefficiencies and we have now realized substantial savings in expenditures. I could go on with others in Office Equipment Branch, and Physical Plant from where they anticipate savings as well. MR. D.

ROCAN: Also in this supplementary it says "coordinates administrative services provided to the department, including vehicles, telecommunications "Why in the budget in Finance is telecommunications? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, just let me check that. I think the member is referring to the audit that was done of the Telecommunications Branch . MR. D. ROCAN: The word · "coo rdinates" is used in the supplementary information here; the last item . HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is just the function within the department that coordinates the overall needs for the Department of Government Services.

There are similar functions in all departments that Government Services deals with. This is the internal function for the Department of Government Services in providing coordinated information on all of the services offered. I just want to provide further information. It controls, for example , the number of vehicles that are provided to the department and who 's assigned those vehicles, the telecommunications' needs for the department. That's why those were used as examples, the priorities for those services and what 's requir ed for the Department of Government Services . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose.

MR. G. CUMMINGS: That is all handled under Finance and Budgets. If I understand the Minister correctly, the designat ion then of who has vehicles would be handled through here; is that what you 're ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: The coordination and the recordkeeping, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Okay. I am not a management expert , but this leads to a question that seems to flow from going through the supplementary information and I'm quite prepared to agree that the department has bared its soul here, in terms of its revealing its management structure.

But it seems to me that we have management overlay over management overlay. I would have felt that , for example , in 3.(

f) which is Telecommunications, that's where the control would have been exercised . Are you saying that the departments are - the subdepartments if you will - are given their control from the Budgets and Finance Departments as to the actual bookkeeping of what goes on in their department? For example, I'm sorry to switch back and forth between two examples but the example of Vehicle distribution, just picking that one as an item, why would that not be handled under the area that was responsible for those particular items? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: They're responsible for, like the Telecommunications Branch and Fleet Vehicles, providing that service to other departments, to clients . In the same way, the Department of Government Services itself is a client. Therefore, those branches that provide the service have to have someone to deal with in the Department of Government Services and they deal with Finance insofar as the needs of the Department of Government Services . Then they deal with each of the other client departments in the government . MR. G.

CUMMINGS: That leads then to a more general question, if the Minister will allow me to bring it in at 3216

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 this point. That is the general role of Government Services in providing a service - I guess I would like a little bit more information - do es the department provide service on demand, or does the department provide a service within predetermined parameters that the department lays down itself? You have obviously a budget laid out for the coming year - that falls under Budget and Finance - based on historical requirements.

But if a department decides that, for example, it needs more equipment, more computers because of changes within that department and they provide a request to Government Services for those particular pieces of equipment which could be quite cost ly, does Government Services have the right to say no, we don't have the funds? Or do they have the responsibility to provide what is requested and the requesting department is required to come up with the funds? How is that responsibility divided? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Where the services are charged back to the departments, which is in most cases, for telephones, for example, for vehicles, for equipment, the departments have to have that money budge ted in their department. They have to budge t for that each year. The Department of Government Services provides sufficient money for these services, based on their best estimate of demands experienced in the previous year and what they expect and anticipa te them to be in the coming year with regard to these particular items or services.

We encou rage the departments and provide information to Treasury Board to try to have them insist, that whenever a department is expanding an area of service or a program, providing a new program, they include all of the costs of providing that program and they budget for them and identify them.

So if they're going to need, for example, three new vehicles to deliver that program or more telephones or whatever, office equipment and leased space to house that personnel, all of those costs are identified in establishing that program and then conscious decisions are made by Treasury Board and Cabinet when they approve that new program tha t they approve also, all of the extenuating costs that come from that approval. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Then the internal audit people who we were referring to a few minutes ago would not become involv ed in a decision of whether or not to supply that.

That would have to be the audit people or the control people within the requesting department who would provide that information. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I just wanted to clarify what personnel he was asking would get invol ved in seeing whether - the individua l departments would obviously make requests on the basis of what they have budgeted in a year. At least, they should. But the department personnel in Government Services would only provide service that is within the guidelines that have been establis hed by Treasury Board with input from Government Services initially.

So we would not, for example, provide a vehicle to a position that did not warrant it according to the guide lines. We would no t provide certain other equipment that wasn't warranted or space that wasn't warranted. So what there is, is a critical analysis done by the department. That's where we get into this whole area that I was mentioning at the beginning regarding the balance between service and control. But there is more emphasis now on control and ensuring that departments are indeed adhering to guidelines when they make requests.

We will also recommend other ways to do things in certain cases such as for finding space, a cheaper alternative than requested by a client departme nt if we have some available or if we think there's another way to provide that space. So there is that element that is growing within a department to not just simply respond to client departments, but to actually critique that request. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The Minister is getting at the core of my question.

The audit function that was referred to earlier within your department, and you referred to having as a result of that improved the efficiency of the Disaster Assistance Boards and various other departments that were under the control of Government Services, I believe, does that department also conduct and give reports to client departments, if you want to call them that, on whether or not their efficiency in the use of the services that they're requesting from you is as good as it should be? I und erstand from the Minister's answer that possibly that happened, but not all the time.

Is that a fair assumption, or is that even a practice tha t the department gets involved in?. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We're not involv ed insofar as the internal auditor; that's the wrong place to be asking those particular questions. The internal auditor is concerned about the efficient operations of this department. The internal auditor of the Hig hways Department is concerned about the efficient operations of that department, and so on and so forth.

That's why we have established an internal audit function, but that is not the one that rides herd on, if you want to call, or exercises some control on other departments. We do that through policies established and through the personnel in each of the branches that provide the service, such as Telecommunications Branch or Fleet Vehicles Branch, Office Equi pment Branch, Lease Space.

What the people in the Department of Government Services do is to offer advice and work with, in planning for space requirements and vehicle requirements and other kinds of things that are needed, working with the client department to alter their plans if they come in in a way that is extravagant in some way or does not meet guidelines, to ensure that they are coming in with reasonable requests. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: The reason I'm asking the questions, and it will be a basis upon which a lot of our discussion will centre in the next hour or so as we go through any of these departments, is the relationship between Government Services and the departments, and who is exercising the control within the government; because where you get into a grey area between two departments, as I'm sure the department is aware, that is where certain demands that may not be totally justified can slip through the system. 3217

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 I'm trying to determine if Government Services, in fact, has a system whereby there is an additional screening of some of the requests that come in because that may be the final protection that "ye olde " taxpayer has out there , that we are efficiently man aging the funds that we spend for government supplies . HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have that function within the department on the basis of guidelines that have been established and through requests by Treasury Board .

Treasury Board and I, as Minister of Government Services, sit on Treasury Board and are responsible to pass all financial items, or reject, or to question . They have quite a substantial number of staff in the Treasury Board area that work at getting information for Treasury Board Ministers to make decisions on . So they do critiques of various proposals that come before Treasury Board and they will call on Government Services staff to provide information and opinion on whether a specific request is meeting guidelines or is according to the most efficient way that it could be done.

The department does provide that information to Treasury Board. So Treasury Board, in the final analysis , is the pro tective shield, I guess , for the public, in that is their responsibility to decide whether those requests are approved or rejected. MR. G. CUMMINGS: One last question that I would have in that area relates to the transfer of those two staff years. We now understand the control that finance and budgets may affect on some of these requests. I'm a little surprised that is the area that was then able to give up two staff people, if I understood the Minister's remarks correctly.

He doesn't have to respond to that unless he chooses. MR. CHAIRMAN: The member still has the floor. MR. C. CUMMINGS: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think you wanted to finish . Is that correct? Do you want to clarify your question? HON. J. PLOHMAN: If the member is suggesting that somehow now the finance area will not have the resources to do an effective job . . . MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'm not suggesting; I'm asking . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. If he is suggesting and by asking the question , that is the suggestion, obviously the inference.

The information I have from the department is that we are ranked No. 1 one for the whole government in terms of accuracy of preparing vouchers, the number of errors and so on, the least inaccurate, or the most accurate of all departments in that regard . So that is certainly comforting at this particular time and I'd like to see how that continues over the next number of years. Also , in terms of time to process, we're about average in terms of the time to process vouchers. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: If I could ask one brief question, and I don't mean to reflect on the office of the Lieutenant-Government, but I understand thi s secondment is to the Lieutenant-Governor 's office. Is that totally salary or is that other services as well that's included in that figure? HON. J. PLOHMAN : Just in this figure. MR. G. CUMMINGS : How is that handled? Is the department reimbursed? Are the rest of the staff also included in Government Services somewhere or are they handled in a different manner? HON. J. PLOHMAN: My understanding is we reimburse the Federal Government for the salary component of $43 ,500.00.

MR. G. CUMMINGS: That is the only involvement that the Provincial Government has, then , with providing services to the Lieutenant -Governor, or staff to the Lieutenant-Governor ? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There 's a total of $107.3 thousand that the Government of Man itoba pays for the Lieutenant-Governor, in this year 's budget ; last year it was 94.6. Two administrative support staff are involved there. The salaries total $64,000 ; 43,000 of it is the Executive Assistant position we just mentioned .

There 's fees paid that cover a monthly stipend payable by the province to the Lieutenant-Governor to help defray domestic expenses ; fees for a live-in housekeeper; furniture and furnishings; a nominal amount for office furnishings; printing and stationery ; yearly office requirement budgeted, 10.5, for example; postage and telephone; automobile expenses; the cost of two government cars ; advertising; environment for exhibits; publication requirement; and unforeseen expenses .

It adds up to a total of 107,000 with 64,000 of it being salaries for two administrative support staff; that's for the Lieutenant-Governor. Then for Government House, which is something that the government has to upkeep, we have a building manager ; we have to pay the salary for that. We also cover repairs and maintenance; communications - this is other telephone requirements for the house staff ; building materials ; utilities, and so on, $64,000 .00. So the total expense related to the Lieutenant Governor is $171.4 thousand. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Pass (d)(1) and (2). MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)(1)-pass; (d)(2)-pass .

We now move to (

e) Human Resource Services - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: In this area, Mr. Chairman, I would like to get some clarification. In the hiring practices that we referred to a few minutes ago , if I understand correctly, this would be the area that would do recruitment and selection, which I assume would be hiring, and would therefore be responsible for interviews and notification of same. I guess to be quite specific, I've had at least one concern expressed to me whereby it seemed that the Department of Government Services set the date for 3218

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 an interview deadline and ind 'cated that there was some particular urgenGy to 11'.lvc the position filled, and then the person who applied was told well if you don't hear from us in 90 days, you will know that you won't be interviewed. Perhaps that can be a version of the old if we don't call you, don't call us answer, I under stand that. But where we were looking for highly qualified people in certain areas, I wouid question that kind of a time frame, ina smuch as people who are well qualified to fill certain positrons are not going to sit around waiting to hear either a yes or a no.

They will continue to keep their job search going. I wonder if we could receive a little bit more information on how those are handled, or perhaps I have the wrong information. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, it should be emphasized that an individual who is interested in a particular job can be as agg ressive as he would like in pursuit of that job, and can phone and ask what the status is of his application at any time to find out whether he's going to have a chance at it and make his own decisions.

If he can't get an unequivocal answer by somebody in personnel to tell him no, there's no way you're qualified, or for them to say yes, sit tight, we're probably going to be asking you for an interview - I don't think they'll probably say that - but they would screen the applications and then would determ ine the best qualifying people and would conduct interviews - and there may be a need for follow-up interviews that are needed. So from the time the initial posting of the position to the actual filling, it may take 90 days.

It would safe to say if you haven't heard from us in 90 days, you can assume you didn't get the job. I think most people would assume long before that, that they didn't have the job because they would have been called for an interview long before that period of time. So they would make that assumption, but if they're unsure, they can simply phone and find out whether interviews have been conducted, and if that's the case then they would know immediately that they weren't considered because they weren't one of th ose interviewed.

But I don't know that it's feasible to say that all those piles of applications, that somebody should write them a letter and say, this will notify you that you have not been considered for interviews. They will just call those people who are. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess, and I'm not trying to raise a red herring here, but it is a concern that the question that flows from that type of a situation is that, how many people from outside of Government Services have, in fact, an opportunity or a realistic chance of ever obtaining management level positions when they're advertised within the province?

The question arises - if you don't have the figure - I'd be interested if you do have a percentage of applicants who do not work their way up through the ranks. . I guess the concern of those who are applying from the outside, they see the jobs advertised and when they know that there's a considerable length of delay before a decision is made, that perhaps the decision has been made in advance - this is the allegation that they would lay - that the decision is in fact been made in advance and that the advertising of the position is simply to fulfill a req uirement of supposed open competition for the job.

It's very serious allegations, I realize, against the department. I wonder if you could respond to that. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The member has thrown out a number of ideas in the one question. I would not condone that practice at any time just to simply justify the selection of an ind ividua l by holding a mock competition, if that's what he was suggesting, and I would say that is not done; that is not an ethical way of doing things.

The fact is, people in the department may have an idea that they think a person would be good for a particular position, but he's got to apply for it, he's got to be interviewed, and you never kno w who else is going to show up in the competition. It's quite possible that somebody more qualified and better credentials, more experience or whatever, might indeed get that particular job. We've had situations where people have been acting in positions, and then when the competition was held, have not won the competition.

We have people brought in from outside through competition as well like George Bidge (phonetic) here who just was hired from Alberta this past year. In Gerry's case, I think, he was from Finance where there was another person in the department acting in that position, and yet Gerry was select ed as a result of the competition. I don't think you can ever predict those things. There may be, as I say, if people have - sure they're pre-conceived ideas perhaps sometimes on the basis of who they know is available, but there's always other people that show up. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Then I would only ask, does the department within a reasonable length of time, establish a short list and notify those who are, in fact, on the short list? Is there a time frame within your hiring practice that you can tell us about? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think it would vary depending on the position and the workload and the number of positions they're endeavouring to fill as to how long it would take before that short list is established, but yes they would establish a short list and advise those people that they are being called in for an interview if they so desire. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: I wish to belabour it no longer except to add one more point of clarification as to why I asked the question, and that is the individual who had approached me was told that within 24 hours of the closing da te, there were no other applicants or almost no applicants for a job and still could not receive within 30 days or so any kind of indication where the department was at in esta blishing a short list. That leads to frustration for some fairly highly qualified people. I'm not suggesting it's an ongoing problem in the department. I've mentioned it, you now know the possibility exists. I leave it there.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would ask if the member wishes to pursue that specific case any 3219

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 further, that he would bring us the particulars and we could look into that. I can just say though that sometimes there are competitions held for positions and then a number of positions are filled from that one competi tion. Say, if there's a number of security people needed or a number of cleaning people needed, they will have one advert isement and then fill, by order of priority , according to the best candidate first. It will fill a number of positions, rather than holding another competition. MR. D.

ROCAN: I believe the Human Resource Services, one of their opera tions, is a coordination and integration of an effective, practical, departmental Affirmative Action Program. Could the Minister tell us if he has seen any positive developments in this area? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, in the Affirmative Action area in the department there was a total of 102 permanent position vacancies filled in 1985-86; and 12 percent of those or 12 candi dates came from target groups under the Affirmative Action Program: five visible minorities; two Natives, four women in under represented categories; and one handi capped person, for a total of 12 under the general competitions. In addit ion to that, the department has also undertaken to identify a numb er of term staff positions to act as training positions.

Five staff years were committed to this Affirmative Action Program in this past year, and they hope to do more in the coming year. There were 19 Affirmative Action candi dates employed in these term positions as clerk typists, secretarial, security, trades helpers, building service workers and storekeeper positions. Eight have continued their employment in the department, 1986- 87. This helps prepare them for other positions that come open in the department for permanent positions.

So these are five that are kind of training positions and we hope to see more of that in future years, to enable people who are from affirmative action gr oups, from individua l groups that are disadvantaged, to gain permanent employment status in the department. I unde rstand, Mr. Chairman, as well, that Government Services has a full-time coordinator for Affirmative Action and was one of the first of the government to have a plan developed and approved by the central Affirmative Action Committee of the government. I mentioned the part about the training, several positions being identified for training purposes.

We also have purchased a teletype device for the deaf for the Human Resources Services Office to enable deaf applicants to better access job information. They are endeavouring to learn more about the whole area of affirmativ e action to put in plac e better employment practices and programs, to stimulate more movement in the department, to conduct outreach activities, and special measures to monitor our progress in this area. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Wher e does tha t leave the department in terms of overall positions? Are you anywhere close to target numb ers? HON. J. PLOHMAN: This is a long-term program.

It would take perhaps 15 years to bring the department into a position where the distribution of people who are hired from various groups reflect societal distribution of those groups. MR. CHAIRMAN: (e)( 1 )-pass; (e)(2)-pass. (

f) Systems - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: I believe this is the area where we have the use of computers. Could the Minister tell us if all the computers are tied into a data- base services, or are they free-stan ding? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm informed that they're basically classified as free-standing systems, but there is a capability to integrate them, if required. There's a study being und ertaken to determine where it would be advantageous to integrate certain systems which are there.

We have in place a fleet management information system for all the government vehicles, a property management system that is in place, one on personnel information, a common material identification system for supplies, a purchasing information system, an inventory management system which is being developed this year. I think those are the major ones. In Administration, there's an integrated financial system study that is being undertaken, as I said earlier, to look at how all can be integrated, the potential being there for that purpose. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Systems, it conducts systems feasibility studies.

How many computers do we have at present right now under Government Services? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Department of Government Services does not supply the word processors and computers for government use. I just want to clarify that point. That is done through the Information Management Systems

section in the Department of Finance at the present time. So this department does not provide that particular piece of equipment, which is rather an anomaly . We do all of the electronic typewriters and other office equi pment but that particular one has not yet been in tegrated with Government Services insofar as supplying the needs and assessing the needs. That's an area that is being studied in terms of who should have it, Finance or Government Services, at some time in the future.

I hope that there will be an integration of that function, that the supply of computers will be integrated with office equipment, but at the present time it's separate. I just wanted to clarify that and if there's still questions about what Government Services uses, as a department, then we can an swer. MR. D. ROCAN: Government Services, did you ever convert your system over to an HP-3000? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The HP-3000 is used presently for the common material identification system and the purchasing information system.

They're looking at adding to that the office equip ment invent ory mana gement systems, if feasible, but that's not done at the present time. The one, as I ind icated, is common material ident ification system and purchasing information. 3220

Thursday, 21 August, 1986 MR" !). ROCAN: I'm curious as to how you can use a computer in the planning of purchases. Can the Minister elaborate a little bit on this? HON. J. PLOHMAN: This allows us to maintain a standard list of suppliers and specifications for materials, and it automates the purchasing process function from the tender call to the awarding of the contract. It also allows for the efficient collection of statistical data for management decisions on what is required for purchasing. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)(1)-p ass; 1. (f)(2)- pass. We now move to Resolution 76, No. 2. Property Management, 2.(

a) Executiv e Ad ministration - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, do we have a list that is read ily available of the buildings that the Manitoba Government leases across the province? At this point, just give us a numb er of how many it would be. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would assume, Mr. Chairman, that the Member for Ste. Rose has gone right down to (

d) Leased Properties? He has passed all of the other MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for Ste. Rose, Leased Properties is item 2.(d). We are on 2.(a). Do you have any questions on 2.(a)? MR. G. CUMMINGS: I had a note written, a general question under the Property Mana gement, I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.

Because of the tie-in that this department has with Manitoba Properties Inc. and the fact that there are other comm ittees sitting tonight, I wonder if the Minister would indulge us, to move down to 2.(d)(1) and 2.(d)(2) and let us deal with that prior to the 5:30 break, and then it would be out of the way for after supper. MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll be moving forward to 2.(d). We're dealing with 2.(d)(2) then, which is the Other Expenditures under the Leased Properties. Is that correct? MR. G. CUMMINGS: Right. If I could just lead into that topic. Mr.

Chairman, as I menti oned in my introductory remarks, in Bill 20, we see where there will be some ability now of Manitoba Properties to construct. That leads to all sorts of in teresting ramifications about the relationship between Manitoba Properties and Government Services. Can the Min ister explain what will happen in relationship to the services that Government Services provides presently, i.e. engineering, architectural, those sorts of things? Will they now be something that will be supplied as a gratis service to MPI?

Can he explain, or has the government even gone far enough to consider what some of those connections might be? HON. J. PLOHMAN: At the present time, we are not billing MPI for services provided by the government, by the department, services that are conduc ted in- house. However, outside consulting services that are undertaken would be billed directly to MPI on works that they would be und erta king. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Using the footnote on Page 79 of the Main Estimates, indicating that $58.96 million is di rected towards Manitoba Properties Inc. and given that this is over 50 percent - well, not quite, I take that back - just under 50 percent of the total appropriation within his own department, I would ask the Minister how these payments are handled. Is it one lump sum that is accounted for as a cash transfer out of his department directly to MPI, or is it a series of cheques on some monthly basis?

Does the cheque in question, paid out by his department, does it cover all aspects of the MPI agreement between the government and that organization; in other words, the portion that is directed towards preferred shareholders, and/ or the interest that is lodged with the government? The $59 million is broken basically into two portions. I'm just curious as to how it's accounted and how it's han dled mechanically within the Department of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the $58 million is a rental payment that we pay to the corpora tion.

The Department of Government Services pays those to the corporation at the end of each quarter of the year. Then what they do with that money, of course, is a matter that you obviously have explored, I believe, with the Minister of Finance in terms of how they operate and what that particular payment goes toward. They become reve

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-72a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 72a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e484aaddaa58b8d2baad6017aab759175face78b

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).