ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 288 - 8:00 p.m. , THURSDAY, 24 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDE� Ho� V� SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Th ompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flan lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursda� 24 May, 1984. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY • NORTHERN AF FAIRS MA. CHAIRMAN, C. Sentoa: Committee please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. We begin with the opening statement from the Min ister responsible for the department. HON. J. STOAIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I haven't prepared any formal statement that I can provide to the Member for Swan River , but I did want to, by way of opening remarks. touch on a couple of the, I suppose, major undertakings of the department in the coming year and to reflect , for a moment at least, on some of the activities over the past couple of years.

I think before beginning I should say that I would like to personally thank members of the Department of Northern Affairs for their diligence, their hard work, for their continuing enthusiasm for the task of developing and improving the circumstances of northern resi dents. I think that, despite the fact the department has not grown, the number of tasks that they have undertaken, their willingness to stretch themselves and go beyond the immed iate terms of their tasks has been remarkab le.

I know that while any time there is change in a department and a change of emphasis, a change in direction, it creates some tension, I think that this staff, in general, in the Department of Northern Affairs have responded with enthus iasm to new respo nsibility and new challenges.

I suppose, if I could just itemize a number of the things that I think were particularly successful in the past year and that we are pursuing with vigour in 1984- 85, I might focus first on the continuing emphasis that we are placing on the devel opment of local skills, the emphasis we are placing on training of local people so that they can continue to enhance their ability to govern their own affairs. I think, significantly, over the last couple of years, we have brought a number of communities - I believe it's nine - into a position where they are now collecting their own property taxes.

That is a significant achievement and something that we will be working with other communities to do. In a similar vein, the department has moved a number of communities into self -administering status, and I think the communities themselves look upon this as a matter of pride and we certainly are encouraging communities to deve lop those skills.

As the Member for Swan River knows, from time to time there are problems in terms of the administration, but I am certainly one who believes firmly that one doe sn't learn without making mistakes and that, while we have to provide direction and encouragement, we can't be overly pessimistic about mistakes that are made. I think we have to look at them as learning opportunities and experiences and continue to allow the communities to grow in their own way.

Another undertaking on the part of the department to encourage improved local autonomy was the recent signing of the block funding arrangement with the Community of Cross Lake. While that may seem like a minor achievement in terms of the amount of dollars that are being administered, it's a major incentive, I think, for local communities to impr ove their admin istrative skills because it gives them an opportunity to allocate funds as they see fit. In addition, Mr. Chairman, we have encouraged and supported the delivery of our Capital projects in the community.

We have encouraged local delivery which, of course, enhances the possibilities for the employment of local people and a significant number of the projects were delivered in that fashion.

Others were delivered with assistance In varying degrees, but I think it's somet hing that's looked on with favour in the communities, something that they have been asking for, something which I think, by and large, has been a very successful experience and I think, almost without exception, the projects that we're talking about were delivered on time and on budget, and I think the communities gained a certain amount of satisfaction from that.

The seco nd area that I think the department is going to be emphasizing more In the coming year and In years to come is the question of both human and economic dev elopment. On the human side, I think the Northern Dev elopment Agreement has probably been most sucessfu l. I believe by the fall of 1984-85, there will be approximately 400 Northern people involved in para-professional training, basically through the Northern Dev elopment Agreement training programs that are offered by various departments.

I think that, in terms of the communities that have offered up their students for training, this is a tremendously important fact. One of the things, I think, that have been overlooked, in terms of economic deve lopment - not only human deve lopment, but economic dev elopment - in Northern communities is the fact that, by and large, the majority of employment opportunities are provided by our institutions, by our educational institutions, health care institutions; and, secondari ly, by service industries, whether they be the local grocery store or local convenience store or whatever.

But those emplo yment opportunities are the ones that exist, and have existed, and will continue to exist in Northern Affairs communities, and the fact that there are that many young people - not just young people, but people - In dians, Metis and other Northerners involved in training to that degree, I think bodes well for the future. I think what we'll see is that those individuals will be most willing and ready to return to their communities to take up their professional roles and maybe we will get away from the kind of transfer of talent from the south to the North that occurs in our school system 1185

and in our other profe ssional areas, whether it be nursing or whatever. I recently attended the official opening ceremonies for two of these profess ional training programs, the Northern Nurses Education Program and the Northern Social Work Program. I was pleasantly surprised by the variety of communities which were represented by students and in the enthusiasm those students had for the particular career they had chosen.

That's somet hing that I think is exciting, something that has been a hallmark of success with respect to the Northern Development Agreement and something that the department, I think, will encourage wherever it can. The issue of economic development, of course, is something that Northern Affairs communities have felt is a priority, I'm sure, since Day 1. The potential right now, it seems to me, has improved remarkably over the last couple of years in terms of programs that are available for access by Northern communities, Northern individuals, to develop local enterprises.

One that comes to mind, of course, is the Native Economic Devel opment Program that is funded by the Federal Government. lt's a $345 million program. lt's headqu artered in Manitoba and I think it's important that our Northern Affairs communities have access to that. That is only going to happen if they have expertise available for the development of projects for pursuing particular interests in the commun ity. So, those are a couple of things that I think the department Is excited about, prospects that are important and positive in terms of Northern Affairs communities.

I think that's basically all that needs to be said with respect to the future and perhaps we could begin with the formal part of the Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: As is customary with this Committee, the Chairperson calls upon the leading opposition critic to give his reply if he so desires. The Mem ber for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for his opening remarks and I must say at the outset that my comments are not as complimentary as what the Minister has just ind icated with respect to activities in the Department of Northern Affairs.

The NDP while in opposition prided themse lves on being the great saviours of Northern Manitoba and I have to give them credit. They were successful in getting elected in five of the Northern constituencies. However, after approximately two-and-a-half years In office, they have recorded a dismal display on their lack of accomplishments in Northern Manitoba, in my opinion. For instance, the Northern Development Agreement the Minister has made reference to. Such a display of fanfare was created in the signing of the new Northern Dev elopment Agreement in 1982.

As I understand it, some eight Cabinet Ministers from the province and the Federal Government, including the Premier, took

part in a cerem onious agreement signing at Thompson. Various community and Native leaders were assigned to various advisory committees to review projects pro posed under the new agreement. So many committees and advisors, such red tape was created that Native leaders have been questioning the government as to what has happened with the concrete activities or economic developments or, in fact, the development of human resources .

Native leaders have become so frustrated that they called a special meeting amongst their people in Norway House last Fall and requested elected government officials to come and explain what has happened to the great promises that were made earlier at the ceremonious fanfare that was held at Thompson, as I indicated earlier. But the government Ministers, the deputie s or other senior officials, refused to attend to explain the reasons for the lack of action at that meeting at Norway House. A recent news

article in the Winnipeg Free Press headlined, "Northerners To Get First Crack At Limestone Construction Jobs." I don't think this is any big deal, this kind of priority has been in place for the benefit of northerners for several years. As a matter of fact it was the last Conservative administration that created the Career Resources Centre in Thompson with Outreach workers to advise and promote job opportunities and retrai ning programs for northerners to take advantage of opportunities In the North. This included relocation and on-site apprenticeships.

Northern Chie fs that I've talked to doubt the sincerity of this gover nment. They are not at all happy with the track record of this gover nment to date. No doubt this government will endeavour to maximize its spending and project approvals during the final months of their term in a desperate effort to salvage some northern support. But, in my opinion, northerners are not going to be fooled by this Minister or this government. This Minister and his colleagues in government give lip service to providing self-government to Aboriginal people, including the Metis.

They've made so many commitments to these people that the MMF organization went on record, prior to the last election, officially supporting the NDP. The leadership of the MMF was bought by the NDP through promises and provision of non-conditional grants to bail out a bankrupt MMF organization.

With respect to the self-gover nment situation, I think the gover nment and this Minister have certainly made a lot of promises to the various Metis communities and we see evidence today of the frustrations in Camperville because of the lack of meaningful dialogue with the government to get on with the self-g over nment that has been talked about, so they are trying to force their own version of it. Whether we like it or the government likes it or whoever may not like it, the situation has to be dealt with and I think the longer the situation is left, the worse the situation grows.

I had the opportunity to attend the First Ministers' Meeting on Aboriginal Rights in Ottawa in March and the Mayor of Camperville, Mr. Guiboche, was one of the representatives in attendance at that meeting. This Minister has ind icated on many occasions the frustrations, the lack of discussion that took place at the First Ministers' Meeting in Ottawa and particularly towards the Metis situation. I understand that Mr. Guiboche headed up the MMF Organization on a consultation process, to bring forward a position for the Metis people.

I don't recall if any report was tabled in the Legislature, I might be wrong, on their findings through the consultative process. But 1186

Thursday. 24 May. 1984 I believe that something like $80,000 was provided to these people to make their position known. But, certainl y, these people are becoming frustrated in Northern Manitoba because of the promises that have been made, whether it be in th e Northern Development Agreement, whether it be towards the establishment of Native self -government, or what have you. They are seeing a lack of action on the part of this Minister and on the part of this government.

We ll, I mentioned the MMF went on record as supporting the NDP just during the last election campaign, and we all know that the government bailed out the MMF who had been driven into bankruptcy only a short time before. But who did this Minister appoint as his Deputy Minister? The same individual who drove the MMF into financial chaos and bankruptcy only a few years earlier. As far as I'm concerned, this was strictly an IOU awarded to a political hack.

There is not one shred of evidence to indicate that this Minister's present Deputy has the capabilities or competence to adminis ter this very important department of government. As I see it, this Department of Northern Affairs should function in two areas: one, as the largest geographic municipality in the province. The department has to relate to over 50 Northern and remote communities with a total population of over 10,000 people, covering the northern 2/3 of our province.

In it's role as a municipality, the department's key respon sibilities are the political developments of the commun ities such as locally elected councils, local autonomy and respons ibility, the provision of local services to those communities, and the collect ion of local taxes and lease fees where applicable. Funding totalling several million dollars, in addition to locally-raised reven ues, will be expended this year, as has been in the past, in fulfilling the responsibility that I've indicated to these various communities; and 2) I see this department opera ting as a government department as well.

As a department of government we must ensure that the public purse is protected , as most of the funds are expended in Northern and remote communities is public funding. However, there is some degree of local taxes and money-raising projects. We must ensure that access to services is available to all residents in the Northern jurisdictional area. The Minister has indicated that the Provincial Auditor reviewed the Deputy Minister's situation and cleared him of a conflict-of-interest situation. However, the Mi nister has never tabled the report or told the Legislature what is in that report.

In any case, the facts are clear. As this Minister is well aware, the Deputy Minister of this department is responsible to see that people are treated fairly and equally; that taxes are to be collected by the department just like a municipality would do. As indicated, it serves as a municipality in Northern Manitoba, so the respo nsibility is to collect taxes, and why shouldn't the Deputy Minister be expected to pay his property taxes like everyone else or appropriate action should be taken? Mr.

Minister, your senior administrator does not have the confidence of the people in those communities with which the department has respo nsibility, in my opinion. The Department of Northern Affairs, in my opinion, has deteriorated immensely under this Minister and under this government. Many competent, loyal civil servants have been forced to leave or quit; many have jumped ship to other departments because they didn't like what was happening. I appeal to this Minister to clear up his administration in that department.

Morale is at a very serious low, many key positions, in addition to the Deputy Minister, have been filled with incompetent personnel, and I don't say it's their fault that they're in those positions. This then becomes a serious drain on those that are competent and dedicated. I, therefore, challenge this · Minis ter to replace his senior adviser and other personnel in key positions, who lack capability. The Minister knows himself this has to be done because of commitments made and embarrassing situations that have no doubt been created and placed before this Minister.

If appropriate action is not taken promptly to correct this situation, we will witness even greater decay and chaos, not only within this department and in this government, but throughout the vast Northern Affairs commun ity. Mr. Chair man, with those opening remarks, I would be pleased to proceed with the line-by-line Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Before we do, the Chair invites the members of the departmental staff of the Department of Northern Affairs to kindly take their respect ive places . HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, before we beg in, I'll just make a few comments on the remarks made by the Member for Swan River. I have to say that, in all hone sty, I think his remarks were personally distasteful and probably the most ill­ informed, misguided, inappropriate remarks I have heard in any set of Estimates. I find it disgusting that the personal character of members of the department would be slandered in that way and I think it's an unfortunate reflec tion on the Member for Swan River that those kinds of issues and remarks are made when we're here to discuss the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs.

I think it's an unfortunate precedent - perhaps it isn't a precedent, I don't know. Certainly, in my opinion, it's an unfortunate precedent where that kind of vitriol is directed at people who cannot defend themselves and I just want to be on the record as having said that. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have certain rules to operate und er, according to Beauchesne, Citation 359, Paragraph 7: "The que stion must adhere to the proprieties of the House, in terms of inferences, imputing motives or casting aspersions upon persons within the House or out of it," more particularly so, people who are not present to defend themselves.

We should be careful about disproprieties. The Member for Swan River on a point of order. MR. D. GOURLAY: The Minister had the opportunity to give his opening statement, are you now allowing him to give a second statement? MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I'm not allowing anybody to make a second statement. We haven't started our proceedings yet . Shall we go to the item or do we have to continue discussing personalities? 1187

There is no item yet under discussion. I would like to call Item 1.(bK1), because we have to defer the Minister's Salary as the last item for consideration. May I note that Item 1.(bK1) Executive Support: Salaries and Wages and Other Expenditur es Is broad enough to include those broad areas of concern that are of particu lar int erest to the members of the Committee. The Member for Rupertsland wants to say some thing. MR. E. HARPER: I want to respond to the remarks that were made by the Member for Swan River. I think those remarks are a reflect ion on the Native people and they're not here to defend themselves.

The allegations that are made that especially the Metis people can be bought off, I don't think that's true. I think that's an insult to the Metis people and also the Native people. I don't think our gover nment and the people in our party work along those lines and I can't speak for the Conservati ve Party. I think it's an insult to the Aboriginal people In Manitoba.

If we are to work together with any government in Manitoba, we need the respect of each other and those kinds of comments should not be tolerated and I would ask you, the Member for Swan River, that those remarks be withd rawn because it reflects on the nature and the respect of the Aboriginal people in Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Members of the Legislative Assembly, whether they are in the Chamber or in Committee, enjoy absolute privilege. They have that freedom of speech to say any1hing without incurring any libellous or slanderous liability.

However, it is on the basis of our self-res traint that we have to consider all the Rules of the House so that our proceed ings may operate properl y. lt's just a reminder. The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no intentions of withdrawing any1hing I've stated, I stated they were in my opinion. I recall, in 19 81, during the election campaign, the President of the MMF went on public record as saying that he supported the new ND Party. Is the Member for Rupertsland saying that is not a factual statement? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the question directed to the Member for Rup ertsland?

The member who is responsible for answering questions is the Minister of the departme nt. Would the Member for Rupertsland like to answer that question? MR. E. HARPER: I didn't say that. What I said was that Native people, in your allegations you said were bought off. I don't think that's true. That's what I said. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have to get to the Minister who's responsible for the department. The Honourable Minister. HON. J.

STORIE: I've made my comments on the member's remarks and I think they're on Hansared for everyone to see and I'm sure that members of the Native community will be truly enlightened by those rem arks. MR. CHAIRMAN: I thank all the members of the Committe e. We shall now proceed with the consideration of the item and we'll stay relevant to the Items under discussion. 1. (bK1) Executive Support: Salaries and Wages; 1. (bK2) Other Expenditur es. The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can indicate to us any changes in the SMY 's from last year in this whole section. HON. J.

STORIE: Mr. Chairman, there Is an addition of a half-staff year for the Minister in that last year's Minister operated it from two departments, and the reduction of an Administrative Assistant to the Deputy Minister. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, how many assistants or Special Assistants does the Minister have? HON. J. STORIE: I have two, a Special Assistant and an Executive Assistant. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister ind icate, are these people both located here in Winnipeg? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, they are. MR. D.

GOURLAY: The Minister had indicated that he had received a report from the Provincial Auditor regarding the Deputy Minister . Is he prepared to table that report? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure that this is part of the Estimates review, however I did indicate, I believe in the House, although it may have been In the press that, no, the remarks that were made to me in a report that came from the Provincial Auditor included some detail of the financial situation with respect to the bankruptcy that was announced by my Deputy Minister .

The question was posed to the Provincial Auditor whether there was a conflict of interest, and the answer was no, and the personal detail, I think, is not touching upon the affairs of the Department of Northern Affairs. lt's a personal matter that needs no further public review. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Chairman, we are discussing the adminis tration of the Department of Northern Affairs, which deals with the administration, and the Deputy Minister being the senior administrator, I feel it is appropriate to have this kind of information in view of the fact that the Deputy Minister, being the senior administrator, is responsible for the various communities of Northern Manitoba which, in essence, is one large geographic municipal ity. He is responsible for the collection of taxes and these fees where they are applicable.

Does not the Minister feel that this is appropriate for this information to be available to the members of the Legislature? 1188

HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I think, in fact, the information has been made available, it was published in the media. In addition, I would indicate to the Member for Swan River that the Deputy Minister is certainly not being treated any differ ently than any other Manitoban. In fact, assurances have been given that the back taxes owing would be paid when the bankruptcy was resolved .

I should indicate that the treatment that the Deputy Minis ter received in the instance of his personal bankruptcy or corporate bankruptcy, is no different than any other individual, and the facts of the matter have been reported a num ber of times. I don't know that there needs to be any further clarification with respect to the Deputy Minister's role as a senior administrator in the department. lt is certainly not at issue. There is nothing except ional surrounding a personal bankruptcy. MA. D. GOUALAY: I am not concerned about the Deputy Minister's personal business.

I am concerned about his abililty to function within the Department of Northern Affairs where he has the resp onsibility to see that taxes are collected, that people do not get into arrears on their property or leaseholdings, and the situation that he finds himself in creates in my opinion, some degree of difficulty. If his own taxes are in arrears, how can he func tion properly within the department to ensure that other people's taxes are paid? MR.

CHAIRMAN: lt is also a rule that questions should not deal with matters that are not officially connected with the government or Parliament, or which are of a private nature. I wonder if these are in his official capacity or in his private capacity, these kinds of que stions. The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Chairman, in my opinion, this is appropriate questioning because this is a senior official of the department who is faced with the responsibility of collecting those taxes from people who live within the Northern Affairs jurisdiction and if he himself is in violation, then therefore it creates a conflict­ of-inte rest situation apart from the report of the Provincial Auditor. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I don't know how one relieves the Member for Swan River of his particular obsession with personalities.

I will indicate to him that the issue of bankruptcy is quite apart from the ordinary and, as the member should know, bankruptcy is usually a res ult of a num ber of financial problems and the symptoms of those include the non-payment of taxes. lt had been made clear that the taxes owing to the department will be paid. lt is not a normal arrears situation, it was a matter of arrears owing and not being paid as a result of a bankrup tcy, which is something that I think probably in the course of events is fairly normal, that taxes would be in arrears when there's a bankrup tcy.

I should ind icate as well and I haven't do ne beforehand because I just don't think it's appropriate, that the previous Minister of Natural Resources, the Member for Lakeside, was significantly in arrears in his payment of . . . MA. CHAIRMAN: This same rule applies. The Member for Lakeside is not here to defend himself. MR. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm simply pointing out - the Member for Swan River is trying to make the case that a personal bankruptcy, which had as a fact of that bankruptcy arrears, somehow indicates that this . particular civil servant cannot function in a cer tain capacity.

I'm bringing to his attention that a Minister, the Minister of the Crown was in a similar situation and was a number of times. I haven't brought that out, I haven't flagged that for the press. I haven't brought it up in the House because really I think it's not an issue, but I wanted the member to be aware of that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Co-operative Dev elopment. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, I'm not certain I'd seek your guidance, Mr. Cha irperson, but the issue of taxes has been discussed.

I'd ask if the collection activities of the Department of Northern Affairs, in respect to taxes which it collects under the legisla tion, is collecting more taxes this year than the year previous, than the year previous, than the year previous and, in fact, if there isn't a considerable impr ovement on the part of communities and individuals throughout the Northern Affairs area to participate in that process. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister indicate how many property owners in the Northern Affairs jurisdiction are currently in arrears, if any? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, off the top of my head, I don't know if we have those statistics available in that particular form. I would cer tainly hazard a guess that there are some. I understand as a rough guesstimate it would be in excess of 200 individuals in arrears. MR. D. GOUALAY: What length of period of those 200 have been In arrears for more than one year? HON. J. STOAIE: I would expect a good percentage of them.

Again, I couldn't nail down a figure but I would suggest a good percentage of them have been. I would add, in anticipation of the member's next question, that they were in arrears not because of a personal or a corporate bankruptcy. MR. D. GOURLAY: What action does the department take then, when the department cannot collect those taxes? What action does the department take to try and recover those monies? HON. J. STORIE: I suppose, Mr. Chairman, that like all departments, staff use some discretion with respect to the collection of arrears.

There are all kinds of extenuating circumstances and I think opportunities are given and there is some coercion, some threats, a liberal mixture of a number of methods to encourage people to pay. But as the member knows, many of the people In Northern Affairs communities have no steady employment and once an arrears situation develops, it's very difficult for them to correct that situation. 1189

Fortunately , as the Member for Churchill has inllicated, the Minister of Co-operative Development, that situation is improving. There Is and continues to be an Improving record with respect to the payment of taxes. That may be because some of the communities have been delegated the authority to collect those taxes. I think that's probably one of the reasons for the imptovement that there has been In certain instances. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhlneland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

I am a little concerned about some of the statements that have been made in the last while, especially when we're talking about items concerning the Member for Lakeside. If I remember correctly, the Member for Lakeside was in a position where he could have declared bankruptcy at any time. He certainly qualified for it because he was in serious financial difficulty. HON. J. STORIE: The Member for Lakeslde? That's interesting. MR. A. BROWN: But, well, okay, according to the Minister ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The item seems to be not relevant to the item under discussion.

The Member for Lakeside is not at all related, I suppose, to the administration of Northern Affairs. The Member for Thompson. MR. s. ASHTON: If we insist on getting Into this kind of discussion, we're going to get further and further away from what I thought was the purpose of this Estimate's discussion. There is a lot of things happening in the North right now, a lot of policy questions -I think that could be asked - a lot of administrative decisions were made in determining the administrative makeup of the department.

That surely is what we should be discussing, not the personal affairs of the Deputy Minister, or the personal affairs of the Member for Lakeside, or of any other member. I would urge you, Sir, to call members to order. I would submit that the Member for Rhineland is clearly out of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's what I've been trying to do politely. The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, at the same time then, the Minister should have been absolutely out of order when he referred to the Member for Lakeslde because he specifically menti oned there the Memb er for Lakeside and some of the difficulties that he had been experiencing when he was discussing the Deputy Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know if the Member for Rhineland remembers, but I said that the same rule applies to the Minister as well as any other member of the committee. MR. A. BROWN: Then on the same point of order, Mr. Chairman. Then you, however, let the Minister continue and make whatever statement he wanted to make.

I just wanted to put a little bit of clarification onto some of the statements that the Minister was making. If the Minister was out of order and he was allowed to continue . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. A. BROWN: . . . then, surely somebody ought to be able to clarify some of these statements that the Minister made. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. We stick to the Item under consideration. Admin istration and Finance, Executive Support: Sala ries, Wages and Other Expenditures in the Department of Northern Affairs. Any questions on this item? The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, what Is the situation in the Thompson office? Has the Minister appointed an Assistant Deputy Minister In charge of the department out of Thompson or for the department? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairman, there is an Acting Assistant Deputy Minister who is in attendance this evening. MR. D. GOURLAY: Excuse me. Acting Deputy Minister, did you say? HON. J. STORIE: Assistant. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, does the Minister have a chart showing the staff locations and responsibilities? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairtnan, not one that Is together.

I can list the staff as we go through the various areas if the member wishes. I can begin with the Executive Support

section and we can go through them. The Deputy Minister, John Morrisseau; there Is a secretary to the Minister; assistant secretary; secretary to the Deputy Minister; assistant secretary and Special Assistant. Under Research and Planning - perhaps the member can just follow . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we haven't called that item yet. HON. J. STORIE: I'm just going to list the members for you, quickly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. HON. J. STORIE: The Director is Brenda Kustra. There is one position currently vacant in Planning. In Audit Services, there are three staff, Senior Auditor, Mr. Ireland, and two auditors.

I missed Financial and Admin istrative Services. The Acting Director of Administration is R. Gegnon. There is a secretary to the Director, a personnel admin istrator, personnel payroll clerk, assistant payroll clerk, accountant budget officer, budget clerk, voucher clerk, another voucher 1190

Thlolf'8day, 24 Mar, 1984 clerk, voucher typist, machine operator and a rec eptionist in the Admini strative Support area. Northern Affairs Fund - three staff, the senior tax clerk is Prenevo st. There is a re venue clerk and a tax clerk. Then we move into Local Gove rnment. MR. D. GOURLAY: Maybe we can leave it there and deal with Local Government when we get to it. Can the Minister outline any departmental policy changes that are in place now that weren't a year ago? HON. J.

STORIE: I suppose one of the major ones that is currently being developed by the Planning and Research group, along with people in Local Government Services, is the preparation of maps to be used in establishing resource bou ndaries for Northern Affairs communi ties.

As the member may know, some of the provisions of the Northern Rood Agreement have created a problem on Northern Affairs communities that are adjacent to Northern flood communities in that because of the terms and conditions of the Flood Agreeme nt, the flood communities are entitled to certain exchange areas and certain hold areas which are impinging upon the ability of the local communiti es, the Northern Affairs commu nities, to access res ources.

We have met with the Northern Flood Committee chiefs and discussed this particular problem and there is, I think, a willin gness on the part of the flood communi ties to encoura ge and support the dev elopment of the se resource boundaries for those communi ties so that they won't be completely enclosed by the fulfilling of the terms and conditions of the Northern Flood Agreement. So that's one of the major things and that's a policy that we're following and will be following with other Northern Affairs communi ties as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1 )-pass; 1.(b )(2)-pass. 1. (c)

(1) Research and Planning: Salaries, 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could give us a brief resu me of what's taking place in this section? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, Brenda Kustra, who is the Director of Planning, has just recently assumed that position and is working on a number of issues, not the least of which is one I just outlined to the member. In addition, the department, as I mention ed in my opening remarks, is moving ahead with the transfer and the development of local autonomy issues and the issues of block funding, increased autonomy in other spheres, is being investigated.

So that's what those two issues I think are assuming most of the time currently in terms of Researc h and Planning Staff. As I had Indicated, there is one vacant position as well which we are hoping to fill shortly. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that Cross Lake was the only community that would be receiving block funding this year. In this

section of Research and Planning, is some of the activity of the personnel in this

section looking at block funding for other communities? Is that part of their role? Is that what you were saying? 1191 HON. J. STORIE: Not specifically. There are other avenues that need to be explored with respect to local autonomy.

The question of developing a balance, a mech anism for the department to deal with the communities who are now collecting property taxes, because if the member will recall from his days in Northern Affairs, right now there is very little incent ive for Northern Affairs communi ties to increase their local tax rev enue, be cause the formula that's used as a matter of policy is such that wherever there are increased local revenues generated, the department's operating support is decreased by a like amount.

What we have to do is develop a system which will encourage the see king of ways to generate revenue locally and the planning staff are working to develop those kinds of mechanisms. As I've indicated and as the member will know, there is such a variety of skills in the communities. You know, some communities are ready, willing and able to adopt and move more quickly in terms of some of the issues than other communiti es. So it's a question of finding the community that's ready, has the skills and is prepared to move in that direction.

I would like to correct one other thing. lt is possible that other communi ties will be moving to block funding in the second half of the year or at other points in the year, but Cross Lake is the only one to this point which has made that step. I don't know whether the member had an opportunity to read some of the comments that were made by the Mayor of Cross Lake, Mr. Smith, with respect to the feelings that the community had about the significance of this achievement. I think it was looked on very positively.

We have had a number of other communities who have enquired about what it's all about and how they can be moved to a situation where that's a possibility for them. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1. (c)( 1) to 1.(d)(2) were each read and passed.) 1. (e)( 1) Northern Affairs Fund: Salaries; 1. (e)

(2) Other Expenditur es -the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder could the Minister briefly tell us what takes place in this section? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, there are three staff in that particular

section and the staff look after the Northern Affairs Trust Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(e)( 1)-p ass; 1. (e)(2)-pass; 1. (f)( 1) Audit Services, Salaries; 1. (f)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder, in the Audit Services conducted by the department for the various commun ities, has there been any change In the numb er of auditors? I believe Mr. Ireland is in charge of that section? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s. There are two other auditors, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. GOURLAY: Do they go out to the various communities and audit or are the books all brought in? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, they are attending the communities.

Thuraday, 24 M8y, 1184 MR. D. GOURLAY: Has that been creating any problem with this Minister, has it been working fairly smoothly, or has there been many complain ts from the communities with respect to the Audit Services? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, not that I'm aware of unless the member's going to surprise me. I'm informed that the only problem that we have in that regard is that they all want theirs done first. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)(1) -pass; 1. (f)(2) -pass. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, if I might just add to my remarks. The member asked if there were any problems.

I should say that reports coming back in from the auditors indicate that there were a number of improvements that they see in the communities in terms of their own management and following of procedures, and there's some very good remarks coming back from the auditors in terms of their ability to cope with the procedures. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a)( 1 )(

a) Local Go vernment Development, Local Government Services: Northern Development Agreement, Salaries and Wages; 2.(a)( 1)(

b) Local Government Development, Local Government Services: Other Expenditur es - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, I believe the Minister was going to give us a breakdown of Information in this sect ion. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, there are 19 staff in Local Government Development. The Senior Co­ ordinator is called Carl Marcinyshyn. The Senior Co­ ordinator in Selkirk is Mr. Wallace; and the Senior Co­ ordinator in Dauphin is Mr. Ford. There are 10 other co-ordinators, 4 regional clerks and a Fire Program manager. MR. D.

GOURLAY: There's a Senior Co-ordinator in Thompson, one in The Pas did you say? HON. J. STORIE: No, there is no Senior Co-ordinator in The Pas. MR. D. GOURLAY: And Dauphin and Selkirk. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a)( 1 )(a) - the Memb er for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I imagine this takes in the Camperville area. I wonder if the Minister might MR. CHAIRMAN: Is this under this item? MR. D. BLAKE: . . for the benefit of the - not under MR. D. BLAKE: If the Minister would bring us up-to­ date on the fishing licences that are being issued by the new self- appointed Cabinet there. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, there are no fishing licences being issued by anyone in Camperville. I met with the Mayor of Camperville on Tuesday and discussed the press reports on that issue and there is no truth to those issues. MR. D. BLAKE: Commercial or sport fishing? MR. CHAIRMAN: For the purpose of record - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Commercial or sport fishing, there's no licences being issued except for licences outside of the Province of Manitoba licence? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairman, there are not.

The issue, in terms of a commercial licence, I think may have been misread, I'm not sure how it happened, but the Community of Camperville has taken it upon themselves to sort of organize, to collect the names of individuals who are int .. rested in commercial fishing, and they are going to send them on to the Minister of Natural Resources. That's what those reports, I gather, were about. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, he kind of lost me there. They're going to collect the licences and then forward them on to the Minister? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, they're not collecting licences, they're collecting names of individuals who would like to have access to commercial fishing licences. They're basically using it as an interest group or a focus for ind ividuals in the area who are int erested in commercial fishing, bu1 there's no licences being issued. MR. D. BLAKE: Well how does one go to obtain a commercial fishing licence? I understood that there was only so many commercial fishing licences issued and there's been problems over the years in obtaining or transferring fishing licences.

How will this help those names that they collect to obtain a commercial fishing licence? HON. J. STORIE: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, they apply through Natural Resources to obtain fishing licences and, as you correctly suggested , there are a limited number for each lake based , I presu me, on the capacity, and they will be either approved or disapproved on the basis of the ability of the lake to maintain a certain number of licences. MR. D. BLAKE: That is only for that particular area , it's not for other areas? this item? HON. J.

STORIE: No, I presume there's other groups that probably may do the same thing, I'm not sure. HON. J. STORIE: No, I don't think it matters, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister is willing to answer que stions. 1192 MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.( 1 )(a) - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, I wonder if the Minister could bring us up-to-date on the staffing with respect for the

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 administration of the Northern Development Agreement out of the Thompson area, I understand the federal people have some personnel working with the Development Agreement in co-operation with Northern Affairs staff. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, no. The Northern Development Agreement Office that is staffed by the Federal Government was established and is maintained by the Federal Government and, in my belief, in the mistaken assumption that they can deliver effect ively some of the programs that they feel should be deliv ered .

The Provincial Go vernment del ivers its own programming through departmental staff, but we maintain no presence in that office because it was esta blished by the Federal Government for deliv ery of some of the 100 percent federally-funded programs. When the member , in his earlier remarks, was referring to the difficulties that some chiefs have expressed with respect to the Northern Development Agreement, I can assure the Member for Swan River that those statements do not reflect on the Provincial Government.

There has been a serious lack on the part of the Federal Government with respect to atten ding meetings and to seeing that the Agreement Advisory Committee functions in a useful fashion, but I would like to set the record straight for the Member for Swan River, that it is not the Provincial Government where the problem lies. The Agreement is functioning, but in some sense it isn't functioning as well as it should be, but the lack is on the part of the Federal Minister who has not been able to attend a number of scheduled meetings and that has certainly created frustration.

I have made it clear that I have been available. The province has met uni laterally with the Adv isory Committee when there was no federal presence, but a federal presence had been requested or anticipated. MR. D. GOURLAY: We ll, that is interesting, Mr. Chairman . I attended a meeting at Norway House, called by the chief there, Waiter Monlas, and he indicated that Ministers from the province as well as the Fed eral Government, had been invited to attend last October, I believe it was. No one from the government showed up, not even the senior administrator from the department.

I think there was a junior co-ordinator who was not in a position really to answer any of the questions that the chief had there. HON. J. STORIE: I think it is a little misleading to say that the government refused to attend, which was a remark the member made earlier.

The Minister of Co­ operative Development isn't here presently , but I believe if he were, he would put on the record the fact that he was invited some few hours before the meeting, told them that he could not attend and indicated that there would be departmental staff there to answer questions. lt was not a formal agreement Advisory Committee meeting. lt was deemed to be a consultation meeting called by the commun ity, I understand, and In many respects was deficient in terms of the planning and a recognition of how difficult it is for Ministers to get away at the drop of a hat.

I know that the Minister and other members, including myself, had indicated that we are prepared to go anywhere any time to meet on virtually any issue, and cert ainly the Northern Development Agreement, which is an important one, there are occasions and times when we simply cannot be available, but those are few and far betwee n. MR. D. GOURLAY: Then, briefly, the federal people have a presence in Thompson and they are delivering some programs that they are funding 100 percent? HON. J.

STORIE: Ye s, the major one, I gather, is the Economic Development - I am not familiar with the exact term - but it's Program 2 of the agreem ent. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many co-ordinators are there working out of the Thompson office? HON. J. STORIE: You are re ferring to departmental co-ordinators? MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, covering the various committees from Thompson. HON. J. STORIE: There is one senior co-ordinator and five co-ordinators, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many communities do those co-ordinators look after? HON. J. STORIE: Fourteen. MR. D.

GOURLAY: How many positions are vacant in this 2.(a)( 1) at the present time? HON. J. STORIE: There are no positions vacant at the current time. MR. D. GOURLAY: I see the amount of money is down slightly. Is that just because of the one less pay period this year? HON. J. STORIE: That's the majority, yes. MR. D. GOURLAY: What do Other Expenditures include here? HON. J. STORIE: The Other Expenditur es fall under the categories of transportation, communications, operating suppl ies, office suppl ies, repairs and maintenance, other fees, other operat ing, for the total you see. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1 )(a)-pa ss; 2.(a)( 1)(b) -pass. 2.( a)(2)(

a) Northern Development Agreement, Emergenc y Response Program; 2. (a)(2)(

b) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister would give some detail as to what is Involved here. HON. J. STORIE: This is the Fire and Emergency Program, and the co-ordinator is Mr. Stagg, 1 believe, Roger Stagg. Basically, this

section deals with the maintenance of our volunteer fire brigades in our 1193

Northern communities. lt works to establish and maintain the equipment that they utilize, develop training programs, ensure that the volunteer fire brigades are trained in an ongoing sort of fashion. MR. D. GOURLAY: Can the Minister report the number of fires that have occurred this past year, the capability of the local fire departments to handle the situations, and whether or not there are any serious losses of life or injuries in any of the communities as a result of fires this past year? HON. J. STORIE: There was no loss of life in Northern Affairs communities.

I am sure that the member is aware of the limited firefighting capability of particularly the smaller communities, and the major role of the volunteer fire departments is to prevent the spread of fires. There is virtually no community that is - well, there are a couple of communities that have pumper trucks but it is a limited ability to do anymore than prevent the spread of fire. We have, in the previous year, been rather fortunate that there has been no loss of life.

The volunteer fire brigades in the various communities are improving and the equi pment that they use is maintained well, but it's a pretty limited fire protection capacity. MR. D. GOURLAY: I have always been am.azed at the interest and the effo rt, the achievements that the local fire departments have attained in the various Northern Affairs communities, and have done an excellent job with fairly limited equipment at their disposal. I know that there has been an ongoing upgrading program with respect to training and supply of equipment to the various communities.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate what has taken place this past year with respect to new equi pment in the various comm unities, or pump er trucks or firefighting equi pment. HON. J. STORIE: The member is quite right. There actually has been a good deal of activity in terms of the fire program. There was a new fire hall constructed at Granville Lake, one at Duck Bay, one at Pelican Rapids, one at Fisher Bay, one at Wabowden and a number of others that were renovated and improved.

In addition, there was equipment - a fire truck to Manigotagan, one to Norway House; a support vehicle to Pelican Rapids; a couple of trailers; miscellaneous equipm ent to a variety of communities. As well, there was training, both locally and at the fire colleges. MR. D. GOURLAY: Does the Department of Northern Affairs have a satisfactory working arrangement with the Department of Indian Affairs, or I should say, the various Indian Bands adjacent to Northern Affairs communities with respect to fire protection? HON. J.

STORIE: I suppose the short answer is that there are some that are working and there are some that aren't and it very mu ch depends on the person alities involved in the council and the Band. There are some that are working and we have sort of a shared service arrangement where we provide service and are paid on a call back basis. We're working with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Devel opment to establish a consistent policy.

Having said that, there's still the difficulty that sometimes exists between the two groups in the commun ity, but we're certainly working on that to improve that because there are situations where the community has the only firefighting capability , and we certainly are prepared to co-operate and lend assistance wherever we can. MR. D. GOURLAY: Are there any communities that are serviced by fire equipment from the Indian bands in a reciprocal agreement? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe so. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(2)(a) - the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm not going to carry on too long. My colleague has certainly asked some very pertinent questions concer ning the firefighting capabilities in Northern Manitoba, but I would just like to ask the Honourable Minister, do we have any associations \'tith the Federal Government in the training and firefig hting capabilities in Northern Manitoba, any association at all with the Federal Government? HON. J. STORIE: Not strictly with respect to fire. Apparently the Federal Government does supply some training for disaster emergencies and so forth, but not for firefi ghting specifical ly.

That's a provincial responsibility and handled by the Fire Commissioner's office and the fire colleges. MR. A. KOVNATS: Just to pursue it a little bit further. I have an interest in why we haven't - this government and the governments before - taken an interest when we talk about Northern Affairs, and I think Northern Affairs includes the Arctic, I'm talking about the Eastern Arctic now which is serviced out of Montreal, out of Quebec, has this government done anything to get any of the servicing of the Eastern Arctic out of Churchill, inasmuch as supply, services and manpower? HON. J.

STORIE: I'm not clear on what the member's asking. With respect to what services? The firef ighting? MR. CHAIRMAN: Wou ld the member clarify the question? MR. A. KOVNATS: I'll try to clarify it or maybe speak a little bit more slow ly, if that's the case. What I'm thinking about is that there's an awful lot of business that happens into Eastern Arctic that I think can be serviced out of Churchill, firefightlng, airport maintenance, supplying of skilled personnel, all that I believe can be done out of Manitoba.

Right now the Eastern Arctic is served out of Quebec, and have we done anything to see that we get our share of the servicing of the Eastern Arctic out of Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I don't know that that falls under the specific auspices of the Department of 1194

Thunday, 24 May, 1U4 Northern Affairs but I know what the member's getting at and, yes, there are some efforts to develop ties and associations with Eastern Arctic communities. In fact, in Thompson, the Department of Housing and the Churchill Housing Authority provide housing units to nurses - I think basically nurses - that are servicing the Northw est Territories, so that's an interesting comment. MR. A. KOVNATS: Not to prolong it, Mr. Chairman, but I think that we're missing the boat here because I think that the Eastern Arctic should be supplied out of Northern Manitoba.

I think that it's been too long in being supplied out of Quebec. I think that they probably do a half decent job and they probably have a lot of skilled workmen that they can send up to the Eastern Arctic out of Quebec; but I think that with the job opportunities, and particularly the Nativ es in Northern Manitoba where these opportunities are available, I think that we shouldn't just complain about the lack of job opportunities, we should go ahead and make sure that these job opportunities are available to our people out of Manitoba.

I would recommend to the Minister that he do something about it immediately and see if we can help alleviate some of the unemployment in Northern Manitoba by supplying these people, who are skilled to some degree, and if they're not skilled, let's train them instead of just sitting there worrying about whether we can find them jobs. Let's put them to work and let's train them and let's get them the jobs in the Eastern Arctic that have been available to Quebec for all these years and not to Manitoba. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Minister of Co-operative Development. HON. J.

COWAN: I would ask the Minister, although it is not necessarily under his area of responsibility, but I'm certain he does have some information regarding it, if the proposed new Federal-Provincial Agreement for the Port of Churchill contains a study and efforts which will be designed specifically to accomplish - or at least, hopefully to accomplish - and work toward the goal that the Member for Niakwa just expressed and one which we all share and, that is, the greater utilization of the Port of Churchill and the Community of Churchill as a re-supply system for the Arctic? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I would certainly be remiss if I did not wax eloquent on the significant benefits that are to be had to the Community of Churchill and the many people who live there. However, I'm going to just say that it's an important development and I certainly will deal with some of the concerns raised by the Member for Niakwa. I think that Churchill is indeed a minor service supply centre for the Northern Arctic, but I think it's quite accurate to say that we could develop that role further.

There are opportunities, but I think that when we see more activity in Churchill, by virtue of the Federal­ Provincial Agreement and the fact that there'll be some $37 million spent on port development and so forth, will encourage the use of Churchill.

There is another area that I'm familiar with that is, again, not related directly to my responsibilities and, that is, the Churchill Interpretive Study Centre - I'm not sure if I have the title correct - which is a unique scientific research opportunity ulitized by, basically, eastern universities, so we do have some flow of funds from other parts of the country going to Churchill. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Economic Services. HON. L.

EVANS: I'd like to ask the Minister whether it's not true that the tug and barge operation is still working out of Churchill supplying the Arctic ports, because that was set up in 1974 when I was Minister of Industry. We replaced the boat that came every year from Montreal bringing goods from Montreal with this federal Crown corporation that was to run this tug and barge operation. I don't know if it's still operating. If it is, that was a significant step forward and it channelled supplies from Winnipeg up through Thompson and to Churchill. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we are getting away from the topic.

A MEMBER: it's lots of fun anyway. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: I don't wish to be included in the "we are getting away from the topic." MR. CHAIRMAN: I exclude the Member for Niakawa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was aware of the involvement of the Honourable Member for Brandon, because we were discussing the Port of Churchill sometime during the last Session and he spoke concerning supplying Northern Manitoba out of Churchill and I think we all spoke in favour of Churchill.

Maybe that had something to do with the big redevelopment plans that finally did come about because we were in complete support, the opposition and the government. I'm not just talking about the North, I think that I'm talking about - in fact I know what I'm talking about - I'm talking about the eastern Arctic that's serviced out of Quebec and I'm even talking about the western Arctic that's serviced out of Edmonton and out of British Columbia. We're getting none of that business.

I think that the Honourable Member for Aupertsland should be very, very concerned because what I'm doing is I'm putting a foot forward and suggesting that people from Aupertsland in the Red Sucker area and places like that should be trained now for the future. Let's not wait until it happens; let's prepare those people now. That's all I'm suggesting. MR. CHAIRMAN: The point is well taken. 2.(a)(2)(a)-pass; 2.(a)(2)(b)- pass. 2(b)

(1) Local Government Services: Salaries and Wages; 2.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(b)

(3) Community Operations - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: We thought you were just going to run right through them, Mr. Chairman. There's a decrease in Salaries and Wages of $61,10 0.00. 1 wonder 1195

if the Minister might explain how many people have been laid off and how many are still working. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, there's a one-staff­ year reduction. The $61 ,000 decrease Is basically the lack of the additional pay period, less the increase and adjustments - those three items. MR. D. BLAKE: What was the size of the position that was decreased - salary range wise? HON. J. STORIE: The Regional Manager in The Pas was the position that was deleted. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, this is the area under (b)(3) - the funding to the various communities. HON. J. STORIE: That would be 2.( b)(3), Mr. Chairman.

MR. D. GOURLAY: The Minister has supplied me with the list of community funding re quirements for the current year showing a total amount of money plus the unconditiom:ol grants. I see at the end here it says, unconditional funds are spent in accordance with the budget approved by both council and the department.

Now, with respect to the situation at Camperville, where the Mayor there has unilaterally decided to proceed with a self-g overnment and as I understand it has appointed six so-called Cabinet Ministers and are working out of the Camperville Devel opment Corporation building - I believe the que stion was directed to the Minister in question period with respect to the fact that there was no funding from the province going toward the self-govern ment. Is there any way that the Camperville Community Council could direct some of the unconditional grants to the Metis self­ government? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr.

Chairman, not without departmental staff being aware of it. I've indicated on a number of occasions that the Community Council, despite some of the public relations effort , I've heard it called, that surrounded the Issue of Metis government, there have been assurances given and the departmental staff assure me that the administrative budget for the Community of Camperville is being administered in a responsible way and in accordance with the original budget that was provided by the community to the department and approved by the department. MR. D. GOURLAY: What kind of checks are placed on the Community Council?

I realize, of course, that co-ordinators are in place, but what kind of checks would be put in place to assure that some of this money isn't being used in that matter as I described it? HON. J. STORIE: The normal audits, the monitoring by the co-ordinators. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, it has been reported that there are many other communities that would like to also proceed with the Metis self-government situation. Have any of these communities - I'm not sure where they are - approached the Minister with respect to proceed ing with their own form of self-government? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr.

Chairman, I think it would be somewhat of an exaggeration to say there are a good number of communities who are Interested in the particular conceptual framework being discussed by some people In Campervllle. Certainly, as I've indicated In my opening remarks, the question of increased local autonomy and increased opportunity to employ local people by delivering departmental capital projects - those kinds of issues are being dealt with.

I have said, and made it clear to both the Northern Association of Community Councils, Northern Affairs Communities, the MMF, that that Is the direction that the department will be proceed ing. Jurisdiction, authority powers, will be transferred In accordance with The Northern Affairs Act. While we're supportive of the intent of the Metis people in a sense that they wished to have more input in their educational institutions, those kinds of issues have to be resolved using the formal structures that exist to allow for that.

There are structures tha t exist, whether it be - I believe there are some discussions right now about whether the community will transfer to the Frontier School Division. That gives them an opportunity to develop a local school committee and to do some of the things that they feel are Important in terms of having some input into hiring and ensL•rlng that some of the teaching staff are Native and reflect the values, general ly, of the community. I sea that as a supportable principle. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not referring to any reports out of Camperville reg arding a number of other communities wanting to proceed with self­ government. This came out of a media report in the newspapers with respect to the MMF Convention held in Brandon. lt was reported that community leaders who attended that convention had condoned the actions of the Mayor of Campervllle in proceeding with his self­ government and indicated there was a number of other communities would be following suit. I'm wondering whether any of those communities had been in touch with you with respect to their interest in self-gov ernment. HON. J.

STORIE: None wha tsoever, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)( 1)-p ass; 2.(b)(2)-pass. 2.(b)(3) - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: In the Communitly Operations funding that's paid to the communities, could the Minister indicate how that money is paid? Is there any change on the funding formula to the communities, or the payout over the course of the fiscal year? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, the only change was the change in Cross Lake which I discussed earlier. I could give the member a breakdown of where those funds are spent, the categories under which funds are provided, if he wishes. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I'm more or less just interested in the broad formula for paying the communiti es throughout the course of the year. HON. J. STORIE: lt hasn't changed, except for one. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. ( b)(3)-pass; 2.(c)( 1 )(

a) Construction Services: Te chnical Services, Salaries; 1196

Tbur8day, 24 May, 1984 2.(c)( 1)(

b) Other Expendit ures - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Perhaps if it's satisfactory with the Chairman and the Minister, maybe we could lump these two Construction Services (1) and (2). MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we'll call the other one, too. 2.(c)(2)(

a) Community Works, Salaries; 2.(c)(2)(

b) Other Expenditures; 2.(c)(2)(

c) Regional Services. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could give us a breakdown on activities under the Construction Services and Community Works at this time. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, there are basically two branches, the Tec hnical Services Branch, which provides engineering and design capabilities for the community projects. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I'm familiar with that kind of activity. I'm just wondering about the actual physical projects that are being dealt with. HON. J. STORIE: I'm assuming the member wants to know the actual projects? MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s. HON. J.

STORIE: I could outline them for him if he wishes. They are as follows: In 1983-84, the Norway House Sewer and Water, Phase 1; Pikwitonei, Seymourvi lle, with sewage lagoons; Pelican Rapids with a sewer and water line extension; Cormorant Sewage Lagoon. There's a whole list of them. Do you want me to continue? MR. D. GOURLAY: Well, if I could have a list. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Mi nister may provide the member with a list. The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonde r, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could indicate any new ins tallations of water services to communities that did not have this service previously.

HON. J. STORIE: In 1983-84, or upcoming? MR. D. GOURLAY: Either this past year, or will be dealt with in 1984-85? HON. J. STORIE: In terms of sewer and water, there was Cross Lake and Norway House and significantly there were, I believe, seven water treatment facilities put in place in 1983-84. I think that covers basically the water and sewer. MR. D. GOURLAY: Has the department experienced any serious problems with any of the sewer and water installations that have been in place for a number of years? I know that in the past we've had some problems at Cross Lake. We understand the reasons for that.

I'm just wondering if there are any other communities that have experienced serious difficulties in this regard? HON. J. STORIE: I see the Director of Te chnical Services shaking his head, so I assume that cert ainly none have been brought to my attention, nothing out of the ordinary, that would be beyo nd the normal operation and maintenance. MR. D. GOURLAY: In Cross Lake, the new school is hooked up to the water facility from the community? HON. J. STORIE: Yes it is, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. GOURLAY: I believe there were some private enterpris es that were wanting to be hooked up to the water and sewer facilities.

I believe there was a motel, and I'm not sure, there may be other businesses that didn't have this service and wanted to be included. Have they been accommodated in the past year? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman. I presume the member is talking about the Hudson's Bay and the RCMP detachment office. Both of those have been accommodated on the system . MR. D. GOURLAY: There was a motel, too. HON. J. STORIE: And the motel as well. MR. D. GOURLAY: The arena at Wabowden and the arena, I believe it was Cross Lake, where there had been serious difficulties structurally, they had been attended to.

Are those projects functioning well now, or are there still problems? HON. J. STORIE: I assume that it was Norway House and not Cross Lake. MR. D. GOURLAY: Pardon me. Ye s, Norway House and Wabowden. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, both of those facilities are operating and functioning adequately. MR. D. GOURLAY: In the community of South Indian Lake, there were some serious difficulties with the housing units that were placed in there after the community was relocated . A considerable effort has been undertaken by the department over the years to bring those houses up to a better standard.

Also the community store had some serious structural defects, which I believe were attended to in the past year , or maybe it's a little long er than tha t. I'm wondering, what is the current situation with South In dian Lake with respect to housing and to the community store there? Are those older housing units now in relatively good shape, or are they still deficient in some areas? HON. J. STORIE: I think there are still some deficiencies. The exact nature of them, I think, is a matter for asse ssment.

I believe that the Department of Housing, MHRC, has undertaken to review the exact condition of the houses. 119 7

understand there were some drainage problems thllt have been cleaned up to improve the situation, but the general structural acce ptability of the houses is something that is being assessed . I don't know that they were deficient when they were ori ginally constructed.

Certainly the experience in housing, general ly, in Northern Manitoba has been less than acceptable, and my own impression of it is simply that the lifestyle did not suit the particular design of the house. lt seems that the desig n, the use of vapour barriers and so forth, in conjunction with a lifestyle that requir ed the heating of water, the lack of sewer and water facilities, just created conditions that inevitably led to the deterioration of the homes. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Ye s, in additon to that, the foundation under a num ber of the hous es was inadequate, and new concrete founda tions were installed.

I am sure there were 60 or 70 homes. In additon to that, I guess, as the Minister says, the lifestyles - heating of water, the lack of water and sewer facilities - created some problems within the types of homes that were placed there, but there were also problems with electrical outlets shorting and what not. I think, rece ntly I read some reports about that problem was maybe still causing some concern to many of the residents. I am just wondering if that part of it is being add ressed because serious fires, no doubt, could res ult and it could be quite a serious situation. HON. J.

STORIE: As I indicated, I know that the Department of Housing is investigating and I am sure that the unsafe conditions, where they exist, and if they exist, would be able to be cleared up quite quickly. Again, I assume that the problem with the shorting and so forth is a result of excess moisture, but it is being adequately addressed , I think, by the Department of Housing currently. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether there is any attempt being made at the present time to design more appropriate housing for the northern communities.

I know that when we were in gove rnment, at Northern Affairs Ministers' Conferences, we spent some time on this project. I think most provinces attending those mee tings showed a lot of interest in designing more appropriate homes for the suitabil ity of the residents in northern commu nities, and to withstand the rigid cli mate conditions and so forth. I am just wondering if anything has continued in that line to develop and put in place more appropriate housing. HON. J.

STORIE: Ye s, there has been a good deal of activity over the past couple of years. lt has not been a major thrust of the Depart ment of Northern Affairs. However, as Minister of Housing, I was involved in a Northern Housing Conference and the Department of Housing has continued to pursue some of the kinds of options that the Member for Swan River was discussing.

I could go on at some length if the member would wish, but it's a little outside the Department of Northern Affairs per se, but yes, there are a couple of varieties of experimental housing that are much more suited, in my opinion at this point, to the lifestyle and the climatic conditions than the kind of housing that has been provided in the past. There have been a couple of stumbling blocks and, again, although I don't like to point the finger unduly at the Federal Government, they have rea lly proved to be a major impediment in terms of providing that housing quickly.

The stumbling block has tended to go along the lines of lack of conformance with the national building codes and product codes. So it has been a problem in terms of their approving funding for it because, as you kno w, the Federal Government provides a good deal of support in terms of the Rural and Northern Housing Program and some other housing programs.

So we need their approval of the design of the buildings and that, while they have indicated support and in fact are testing a couple of these homes in Beausejour , there has been no over whelming response or Indication on their part that they are prepared to move in a significant way to provide this type of housing. There are a couple of experimental homes, and I am sure the member Is aware of them, that have proven to be except ionally sturdy, at least initial Indications, after a number of years of occupancy, have proven to be much superior in their ability to withstand the kind of lifestyle that exists. MR.

D. GOURLAY: Is the Minister referr ing to the Klug Construction type home? HON. J. STORIE: No, not at all. The two varieties of homes that I am talking about are the square poplar logs and what is called the Eastervi lle house, which is basically rough sawn lumber. Both of those particular styles of homes utilize the local resources and are fairly simple to construct. MR. D. GOURLAY: I mentioned the Klug home. I rec all that chap in the construction business and was making homes. They had a contract with the Department of Northern Saskatchewan several years back.

We had invited northern leaders to look at these homes here in Winnipeg, they were on display. They didn't seem to show an interest in those. I am just wondering whether the Minister is familiar with that type of home and whether he has any knowledge of how they have worked out in Northern Saskatchewan. MR. CHA IRMAN: This discussion may be very interes ting, I don't think it is at all related to the item that we are trying to finish. HON. J. STOAIE: lt is very interes ting. Can I answer that? 'es, I am aware of Klug Construction techniqu es, and the member is quite right, they have not been wi� ,ly accept ed.

I think it's a fairly costly alternative in terms of the other options that we're talking about. Certain ly, it provides a greater durability, but I think it has some of the inherent problems of the normal construction in terms of condensation problems and so forth. So I don't think that they have proved to be as dramatically successf ul as the designer had originally intended. However, I have met the gentleman and discussed it with him. 1198

Thuracler, 24 May, 1814 MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)( 1)(a)-p ass; 2.(c)(1)(b)- pass; 2.(c)(2)(a)- pass;· 2.(c)(2)(b)- pass; 2.(c)(2)(c)- pass. 2.(d)( 1) (

a) Muni cipal Support Services: Northern Dev elopment Agreement - Provincial, Salaries and Wages; 2.(d)(1)(

b) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, I wonder if the Minister could just give us a brief explanation of this

section for the benefit of members. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman. Basically, the Municipal Government Support

Section is involved in the training development of the community clerks that takes on additional responsibilities for developing training programs. There are a number of them that they have delivered over the past couple of years and, basically, their main effort is geared towards dev eloping the expertise in the local communities, to administer the budgets, to develop those skills that they will need as they move on in terms of their ability to govern their own activities. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many community clerks are involved at the present time under this sec tion? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, there are eight staff involved and virtually all of the communities have a commun ity clerk, some of which are very experienced and already trained, but obviously there is a turnover and staff are involved in both updating the training of the existing ones and providing training for the incoming clerks. MR. A. KOVNATS: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, under (d)(1)(

b) Other Expenditures, can the Minister advise how he can justify the doubling of the expenditure of the previous year? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, there has been an increase in a number of the categories and I'll just provide for the member the categories. The expenditures occur in these categories, Transportation, Commun ications, Office Supply Rentals, Other Operating Expenses and Other Fees. The most signi ficant incr ease in that area is in the Other Opera ting.

That occurs because of the additional responsibilities that we're hoping to move to the communities and the staff are going to be develo ping and working with those communities to a greater extent and they will need some freedom to do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1 )(a)-pass; 2.(d)(1 )(b)- pass. 2.(

e) Grants - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, could the Minister give us a breakdown of where these grants and how much? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, the grants at this point go to the NACC, the Northern Association of Community Councils; the MMF, the Manitoba Metis Federat ion; the MKO - I'm not going to try and pronounce that - and there were a number of other grants provided last year. This year the funding breaks down as $277,900 for NACC which represents a small increase over the previous year. The MMF which basically, I think, have had a 3 percent increase over the previous year and the MTO.

The remainder of the funding, the remainder $85,000 has not been allocated at this point. There were a couple of grants that were provided last year that basically are on hold at this point, so I don't know how the last remai nin g funds will be allocated. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland. MR. E. HARPER: Ye s, I was going to ask a question in regard to an unconditional grant. Is this where I could ask? HON. J. STORIE: The unconditional? Mr.

Chairman, I'm informed by staff that the particular item that the Member for Ruper tsland is ref erring to actually comes out of the Depart ment of Finance and is provided by that department to reserves. MR. E. HARPER: The reason I asked for that is I know there is a lot of direct information being sought from the Northern Affairs in regard to the unconditional grant. I believe some reserves are having some difficulty in get ting their actual dollars on a per-capita basis, I was just wondering if that situation has been rec tified. HON. J.

STORIE: That would be the Mun icipal Tax Sharing Agreement, and again is del ivered or administered by the Department of Finance. I don't have any other information. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Ye s, under Grants the Min ister mentioned that there were a couple of grants on hold. I wonder if he could tell us what grants they are. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, the one is to the First Nations Confede racy. There is currently a dispute between the First Nations Conf ederacy and the Brotherhood of Indian Nations with respect to funding and how it should be allocated.

I don't know how familiar the member is with those two organizations. They were all under the umbrella of the Assembly of First Nations and First Nations Confederacy and subsequently split and there's some dispute. So I don't know where and they have not decided how the funding will, or if it will be shared. The other one, there were a number of grants to outside Native organizations, the largest of which was to the All Chiefs Budget Committee which was set up, or part of their activities was in devel oping a constitutional position; part of the consultation process.

So, those two, I'm not sure whether they're going to be followed through with. Basically, there's some money available for grants. MR. D. BLAKE: Is there any funding in the grant structure here for the Native Council of Manitoba? I understand that's a regional Indian organization. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, not within the department at this point. Whether some of this may 1199

at some point, I know that you are quite correct that they are see king some funding. There are a couple of other groups that are as well and that may be where some of the funds will be allocated In the final analysis. MR. D. BLAKE: There hasn't been a decision made on it? HON. J. STORIE: No, there has not been. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e) - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, I don't think the Minister indicated there were any grants being paid to the Northern - was it Northern Commun ications Incorporated? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, the grant to the Nativ e Communications Incorporated in Thompson has been tra nsferred as a commu nication grant to the Department of Cultu re, Historical Resources and Recre ation. MR. D. GOURLAY: There are no financial monies being paid to that organization? HON. J. STORIE: Not from the Department of Northern Affairs. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)-pass. Res olution 133 - the Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions, there's 300,000 there - I'm sorry we're just moving to that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 133: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $6,64 1, 900 for Northern Affairs, Local Government Deve lopment for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985- pass. 3.(a)( 1) Agreements Management and Co-ordination, Northern Development Agreement: Salaries and Wages; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(a)

(3) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions - Mr. Minister. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, yes, that $300,000 represents our share of cost-shared federal­ provincial program. MR. D. BLAKE: What type of program? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, that is Program I under the Northern Development Agreement which Is an economic planning and . . . Planning basical ly, a planning program. MR. D. BLAKE: That's fine, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, I wonder if the Minister could indicate what projects are being looked at under this sec tion at the pres ent time in the various communities.

This is where considerable concern was expressed by many of the northern leaders on the lack of visible activities that had been promised through the Northern Dev elopment Agreement. There have been numerous projects sent for approval but we haven't heard of anything being undertaken up until this point, or very few projects. I wonder if the Minister could elaborate further on some of those activities. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I don't have the details on the $300,000 - the funding that that was spent for, that's a fed erally delivered program.

But I believe there were some 15 projects - something like that approved - basical ly, a plannin g consultant report-type investigation. I think the larger question that you're discussing is the Northern Development Agreement has already expended a good deal of funds, but a lot of it is for Infrastructure dev elopment and so forth. So a lot of the benefits that have flowed already, in terms of the Northern Dev elopment Agreement, tended to be those kinds of things because, obviously, construction projects, major infrastructure are much easier to facilitate than the more fuzzy area of economic development.

The first step, of course, in any economic development, any project, particular enterprise in Northern Manitoba, is the question of what is going to work. That's why most c.f the money that's been spent has tended to be planning and consultative to this point. We have yet to see, I think, what the results of those investigations will be and whether there will be other opportunities down the road. There Is a report for the year'83-84 and one for the coming year available as well. If the member is interested I could make sure that he gets a copy. MR. D.

BLAKE: That would list the projects that the Minister mentioned would be under considera tion. HON. J. STORIE: Yes . MR. D. BLAKE: That's fine. MR. CHA IRMAN: 3.(a)( 1)-p ass; 3.(a )(2 )-pa ss; 3.(a)(3)- pass; 3.(b)( 1) - Agreements Management and Co-ordination - Salaries and Wages; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditur es; 3.(b)

(3) Northern Flood Agreement - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could just give us briefly a rundown on activities in this section. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could ask the member for some clarification. Do you want a list of the projects that were undertaken? MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, the activities that are currently under way. UON. J. STORIE: Basically, Mr. Chairman, the activities fall under these categories and there's a breakdown for each.

Surveying and mapping; land exchange; land use inves tigation; moose monitoring; conservation officer training - that's one of the major ones; the empl oyment task force; arbitrator costs; Cross Lake Arena operating; environmental impact monitoring; human reso urces survey - those are some of the major categories of expenditure. 1200

ThuradaJ, 24 May. 1984 MR. D. GOURL AY: The Cross Lake Arena was operating and functioning this past winter season. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, it was operating virtually on a 24-hour capacity. I unde rstand that it was utilized to the fullest extent possible. MR. D. GOURLAY : Ye s, did the community have an official opening event for that? HON. J. STORIE: I understand the official opening was December 23rd. MR. D. GOURLAY: What would the estimated operating expenses be for the arena at Cross Lake. HON. J. STORIE: The estimated opera ting expense was approximately $1 40,000, I believe. Here it is.

Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, it was $1 60,000.00. 1 should indicate that that is, at some point, cost shareable with the Manitoba Hydro. The exact sharing arrangement has not been formerly determined at this point. MR. D. GOURLA Y: Un der the No rthern Flood Agreement, most of the activity there has been under the mapping and the work with the wildlife in that area. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, basically much of the activity follows along with claims that have been put forward, so cert ainly mapping takes a part of that, but other monitoring and surveyi ng, human resource survey kind of thing which is a re quirement in the agreement. Basically the department has very little alternative but to pursue those, there's a contractual arrangement there that we have to oblige. MR. D. BLAKE : Mr. Chatrman, the Minister mentioned conservation officer tr aining, are these Na tive conservation officers? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, they are. I believe from Cross Lake and Norway House. MR. D.

BLAKE: How many would be involved, Mr. Chairman? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, there are seven be ing trained as resource technologists. MR. D. BLAKE: They will operate in that area, in their own home areas, or will they operate throughout Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, those individuals, when they complete their training, will be assigned by the Department of Natural Resources. I assume that they would be given priority in their local area. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b) (1 )- pass ; 3.(b )(2 )- pass ; 3.(b)(3)- pass. 3.(c)( 1) Canada-Manitoba Special ARDA Agreement: Salaries and Wages; 3.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY : Would the Minister be able to give us a breakdown? I don't necessarily need it this evening, but on the projects that have been approved under this? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, I can. I can give him a verbal report as well. The grants provided under the provincial part of the Special ARDA, which basically is utilized for Primary Resource Harvesters , went to 2,9 14 fishermen, 343 trappers and 31 Northern groups for garden projec ts. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I understand the Minister can supply me with a written list of, not necessari ly tonight, but HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, I can; no problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minne dosa. MR. D. BLAKE: That's fine, Mr. Chairman. I was just going to have the Minister maybe enlarge on the garden projects there because I know at Cross Lake there were some pretty satisfactory experiences with gardening that I believe was commenced by the Mennonite Central Committee a few years ago when I was in their United Church.

They sent a couple of girls in there with a couple of rototillers and got things going pretty well and it seemed odd that governments couldn't get it going when a small group like that could, so that will be included I imagine, in the list of projects. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman. I just was thinking, there are 2,914 fishermen. Does the member want a list of all those things - 3,000 names? MR. D. BLAKE: Just the last names will be okay. HON. J. STORIE: I don't know what the procedure is on that. Are those normally made public? MR. D. GOURLAY: How many fishermen did you say? HON. J. STORIE: 2,914. MR. D.

GOURLAY: No, I don't think it necessary to have ... MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(1 )-pass; 3.(c)(2)-pass. Resolution No. 134: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,839,400 for Northern Affairs, Agreements Management and Co­ ordination, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985-p ass. 4.(

a) Corporate Projects, Salaries and Wages-pass; 4.(

b) Other Expenditures-pass. Resolution No. 135: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $1 90,800 for Northern Affairs, Corporate Projects, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1985- pass. 5.(

a) Communi ties Economic Dev elopment Fund, Other Expenditures, no money-pass. MR. D. GOURLAY : I wonder, just for clarification, Mr. Chairman, the Minister may want to indicate what has taken place in this sec tion. 1201

HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, that's simply the responsibility for providing operating expenses for the fund that has been shifted from the department and assumed by the Man itoba Dev elopment Corporation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 6, Northern Dev elopment Agreement -Canada-Manitoba, (Recove rable from Canada)-pass. Resolution No. 136: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,61 8,000 for Northern Affairs, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985- pass. Item 7.(a)( 1) Expenditur es Related to Capital Assets - Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets: Northern Affairs; 7.(a)

(2) Other Departments -the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAV: Can the Minister indicate the types of Capital Projects that are contempla ted under this area? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, basically the breakdown of expenditur es is for roads, water and sewer, waste disposal, buildings, halls, garages, docks, subdivision development and lire program. MR. D. GOURLAV: Could the Minister provide us with a detailed list of those undertakings with the estimated cost allocation? Not nec essarily tonight. HON. J. STORIE: We can certa inly provide that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a)(1)- pass; 7.(a)(2)-p ass. 7.(b)( 1) Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets: Other Capital Projects; 7 .(b)

(2) Northern Flood Agreement -the Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Minister might do the same under (1) , provide us with a list of what activity is taking place there and he might explain the $1 ,300,000 under (2). HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I would provide that information in terms of the Capital Projects. The $1. 3 million is the interim order being settled from the Northern Flood Agreement, settling Claim 14. That is the building of the Footprint River Bridge and the . MR. D. BLAKE: Norway House? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr.

Chairman, it's in Nelson House, in the Nelson House region; and that $1 .3 million will be for the total cost of construction and provision of individual damage claims and to building the bridge. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)( 1)-p ass; 7.(b)(2)- pass. Resolution No. 137: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,41 7,300 for Northern Affairs, Expenditur es Rel ated to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985- pass. Back to the Minister's Salary, 1. (a) -the Memb er for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAV: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for the ans wers that he has suppl ied with respect to questions relat ing to the operation of the Department of Northern Affairs and will look forward to receiving other written detail on some of the projects that we have requested.

However, in summing up the Expenditu res for the Department of Northern Affairs, I would like to put on the record that in my travels In Northern Manitoba and discussions with people from the various communities -and I do have a num ber of Northern Affairs communities within my own constituency -and having attended some meetings in the North recently where there has been great anxiety expressed by many of the Northern leaders with respect to a lot of promises that were being made, maybe not so much by this Minister but by this government, on the activities that would take place in Northern Manitoba and they are not seeing very much activity.

The Minister has indicated the activities under the Northern Dev elopment Agreement and perhaps there is a lack of commu nication perhaps to the various leaders with respect to many of the activitie s that are contemplated or, in fact, under way through the activities within this agreement. But cer tainly there are a lot of dissatisfied people in the North.

Another area that is raising much concern by many people in the Northern Affairs commun ity, I think in the province as a whole, and that has to do with the lip service that has been given to self-gover nment, whether it be Metis commu nities or whether it be Native communit ies. I think that the Native people have been led to believe that there will be some concrete action taking place in this regard and I have attended the First Ministers Conference in Ottawa and there were two days of discussion solely on this topic. The Prime Minis ter ind icated his willing ness to proceed with self-gove rnment.

However, there was a lack of agreement between the various Premiers and the Native leaders with respect to what the definition of sell-government really was. There was some willing ness on the part of the Prime Minister and the Premier of this Province, together with a couple of other Premiers, to proceed on a general topic of self­ government, but to leave the details to be worked out later. This was not satisfactory with the majority of the provinces.

I think that this government went on record as wanting to proceed with the general assumption that self­ government could be attained and then work out the details later. But we just haven't had any presentations made to us either by this Minister or by this government as to what they really mean when they talk about self­ government. What is the definition that they are giving to sell­ government?

We kn ow that the communit y of Camperville have proceeded with their own unil ateral form of sell-government, which is not necessarily satisfactory to many people, including this gover nment, but I think in all fairness to those people that feel that they would like to proceed with some form of sell­ government , the definition of this term certainly has not been attempted, to my knowledge, either by this Minister or by this govern ment. So I think those kinds of issues tend to frustrate many of the Northern leaders and the Northern people. Many of the people are afraid that sell-government 1202

Thu red8J, 24 lhJ, 1984 may mean some thing completely different to other people and it makes many of the rank-and-file people of the North uncertain as to what the future holds for them. I think that the onus is on this government to try and rectify this situation as quickly as possible before more unrest grows and we experience much more serious difficulties with the people of Northern Manitoba.

I would hope that the Minister of Northern Affairs, and I think the responsibility largely falls on his shoulders, would have this government move quickly to try and resolve this whole question of self­ government, not only for Metis communities, but for other Native factions as well. HON. J. STORIE: First of all, I want to make it clear that this government and this Minister do not pay lip service to the issue of self-gov ernment or local control. it is something that we are serious about and committed to.

I mentio ned in my opening remarks some of the things that we have proceeded to do which we see as being movements towards greater local autonomy or greater self-gov ernment, those include the nine communities that are currently collecting their own taxes. The fact that the individual communities are delivering capital projects, taking the dollars into their own hands, employing local people, tendering where necessary and so forth, is self- control. it was at one time handled almost exclusively by the Department of Northern Affairs.

The block-funding arrangements with Cross Lake; a couple of other things that we're working on include the establishment of a community resource boundaries. Those things will give local people, local community councils access to and some input into the allocation of resources in their area, and again that is certainly another first. So, I don't think that it's accurate for the Member for Swan River to say that the gov ernment is just paying lip service to it, in fact, we're actively pursuing those avenues that are available to us to allocate authority and jurisdiction.

I could mention a couple of other areas where similar processes are occurring; one is in Education and the other one is in Housing. So, I don't accept the fact that it's lip service. I think, as well, that I have been in at least a dozen Northern Affairs communities In the last two or three months, and I frankly don't sense the kinds of sentiments being expressed there that the Member for Swan River has indicated.

We have very good relationships and we pride ourselves on being able to maintain the relationships with the Northern Association of Community Councils, the Manitoba Metis Federat ion, with ind ividual mayor and councils. Certain ly, my relationship, I feel, has been cordial, co­ operative, and I've certainly not sensed any negativism towards the activities of the government. Certain ly, there are expectations out there. I have, to the MMF, to MACC discussed what self-gover nment means. We have pursued that course.

Self-gov ernment, of course, means the continuing devolution of the authority of Northern Affairs and the authority of other departments where it's appropriate. I've mentioned a couple of ways that can happen. The Community of Camperville and Ferdinand Guiboche particularly have struck a different chord. That issue surrounded, 1 believe, some of the frustration that the member was talking about with respect to the Constitutional Conference, but basically, there are two separate tracks.

There is a constitutional process ongoing, there will be another First Ministers' meeting in 1985 and a further one in 19 87, and we will have to wait and see what issues can be resolved in that forum. In the meantime, and quite separately and distinctly, the Department of Northern Affairs will be pursuing its own policy of devol ution of its authority and encouraging the communities to accept increasing responsibil ity.

I have Indicated, as well, that some communities are ready to accept it; others are reluctant to for a variety of reasons, including some concern that exists about what additional authority means in terms of their relationship to other departments and other services that are provided, but those are things that we are going to have to work through. MR. D. GOURLAY: The situation at Camperville, I wonder if the Minister can indicate if his department, or the Attorney-General, is looking at the legality of what Mayor Guiboche and his Cabinet Ministers are undertaking. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, I have made it clear on a number of occasions that there is no constitution or legal authority for the particular framework that has been presented by the individuals in Camperville. it's a concept only, it has no basis. I belie ve that it was an expression of frustration and certainly a desire to see a particular issue resolved . The Metis question is certainly beyond the scope of the Department of Northern Affairs, The Northern Affairs Act, to deal with that question, and I have ind icated there is a constitutional process which is attempting to deal with it.

Whether it will satisfactorily deal with it remains to be seen. MR. D. GOURLAY: After hearing what the Minister has said, it would appear though that the gove rnment is prepared to discuss the education system with the so­ called Min ister of Education from Camperville, who has no legal status. A MEMBER: He's a councillor. MR. D. GOURLAY: He is not a councillor; he couldn't get elected. HON. J.

STORIE: Certainly , the Department of Education will discuss school division boundaries with any individual, whether he represents an ad hoc committee, whatever he repres ents, I think really is for the Community of Camperville to decide. If there is a desire to move in that direction and there is a consensus amongst the people there, then certainly the Department of Education has the authority to ·review that matter and decide on it, but I would say categorically that any discussions that are taking place are taking place, not with a Metis government, but with indi vidual representatives of the community.

When I have met and discussed these issues with the mayor and his councillors from Camperville, I have made it very clear on what basis we were having our discussions. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister aware that the Mayor of Camperville went to Israel to look at the kibbutz system of landholding in that country? 1203

HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I was aware that he had done that. MR. D. GOURLAY: Did the Mayor of Camperville request assistance to cover the cost of his trip to Israel? HON. J. STORIE: I believe informal inquiries were made and were quickly dispelled by the department about any possibility of such happening. MR. D. GOURLAY: Was any recommendation made to you by your department to assist in the financing of his trip? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a)-pass.

Resolution 132: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $91 5,000 for Northern Affairs, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1985-p ass. What is the pleasure of the committee? A MEMBER: Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture Item 3. Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, before we begin deliberations on the Estimates of Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation,! would like to, at this time, introduce to the members the General Manager of Manitoba Crop Insurance, and the Assistant General Manager, Ron Dalgleish and Don Forsberg who have come in. Mr. Chairman, as we begin as usual, in discussing the Estimates of MACC, I would indicate that in terms of the staff question, there are 52 staff positions in MACC, the same for last year and the same for this year. There is no change in staffing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I have a few questions in the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation and I think probably the kind of information that we'll be looking for is to try and determine the numbers of farmers that are still continuing to have difficulty with loan repayments and with the debt refina ncing programs and that type of thing. I know that some of the activities that have taken place over the past year I think is worth noting and I know my colleagues may want to make the same comment, that we've found MACC, and the management there, fairly reasonable to deal with in some of the requests that have gone forward.

I would ask the Minister, particularly dealing with the numbers of loans and the kinds of loans that they have, does he have a list of the numbers of people that are in arrears and are they serious, or what is the status of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation at this particular time? Are they long-term loans that are in difficulty, are they operating loans, or is there a trend that is taking place? What Is the status of the corporation on the lending side of it? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, on the direct loans portion there is approximately 19 percent arrears.

The other programs, there may be in some of them slightly higher arrears, but those programs are lesser programs and would have a higher possibility of greater arrears, more in terms of the Farm Diversification Program, Beef Advance Loans, and Mortgage Purchase Loans, those kinds of lesser amounts, they would have a higher, but overall - in terms of dollars, it is fairly significant over last year; in terms of numbers of farmers in arrears, the number of farmers in arrears had not changed to any significant amount, but in dollar terms it has increased significantly. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Just for example, what is the trend? Is there an increase in the percentage of farmers or in the last year or two or the numbers of dollars, is that on a gradual increase, or is it leve lling off, or what would be the trend? If there is a trend, I would appreciate knowing that, Mr. Chairman. HON. B. URUSKI: The trends that MACC has as compared to other lending agencies, we would not be that far different. There is an increase in numbers of arrears.

The number in terms of dollar amounts as I said earlier, the numbers of clients has not increased. lt's those clients who had financial difficulties, are continuing to have and have greater difficulties - some of whom have greater difficulties - and are going further and further into difficulty in terms of their position on the farm, so while the numbers are not significant, the dollar amounts are rising. MR. J.

DOWNEY: The concern that I have is with the continued recession in the farm community and in a lot of cases some situations appearing to be - well it's certainly demonstrated publicly that there are certa& ... situations where there could be a time when some of the loans have to be written off or written down or cleaned up in some way. Are there any or could he quantify the numbers of people that the board are making a decision is, there is no hope of repayment, it's a matter of cleaning up the account and taking the loss. Have there been and how many, strict write-offs as far as the corporation is concerned?

HO�t B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the corporation has set aside reserves at an increase of approximately $'300,000 to $400,000 over last year, from approximately $800,000 in 1983 to a reserve of approximately $1. 2 million for this year. lt is a calculated amount and looking generally as to where some of the clients are and it is a fairly significant increase, but in terms of actual write-offs, 1 don't have the figures here. We'd have to go back and actually give you the exact amount of write-offs that are there, but the contingency liability in terms of 1204

setting aside an amount for reserve for write-offs, we have increased the amount from about $800,000 to $1. 2 million. MR. J. DOWNEY: How many? HON. B. URUSKI: We'll have to get that in terms of the numbers; we'd have to go through all the accounts. Of all the loans that the corporation has had, and there were about 400,000 on file that were closed out last spring, which would involve 60 various loans in all categories. MR. J. DOWNE Y: In the numbers of write-offs and that type of thing, or difficult loans, he is Indicating 19 percent, I believe, of the number of loans are in arrears.

Could the Minister indicate to us the type of agricultural production that those people are in? Is there a particular group in the agricultural community that are, through the re cords of MACC, demonstrating an inability to pay; say, grain farmer direct, strictly grain versus another particular part of the industry? HON. B. URUSKI: Through our Inter est Rate Relief Program and some of the work that our staff have been doing in assisting and counselling, and management counselling and negotiations, we have found that the majority of farmers in financial difficulty would be primarily grain related.

There would be some in all cate gories. There are even some in the dairy industry and hog, and it crosses all line s, but the pre dominant ones are, and it's very clear with the depression in world grain prices and input costs rising, that if the family farm unit is generally grain related those are the farm families who are in greater difficulty than any other type of opera tion.

With the income stabilization in hogs and beef and the supply-managed commodities, while there are some difficulties there the majority of difficulties that those experience would be expansion­ related, would be management-related, and the like. In the main the ones who are in financial difficulty would be more so in the grain industry. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think that kind of liDrmation is not surprising.

I think probably the Minister alludes to some of the other things that have supported, say, the cattle and hog indust ry, the stabilization program, even though there are only 50 perce nt of the hog producers in the program and that has dropped, I believe, in the last few years, and probably well under 50 percent of the livestock and beef producers are in the program.

I think, again, that it probably would support and I have always felt strongly in this way and I think it has been demons trated by policies of the Progressive Conservative Party and that is that a diversified agriculture is one which can add stability on its own without additional monies being put in by government, but a better base from which to work from, both grain, livestock, mixed and complementary­ type industries. There's an important area and I wonder how the Credit Corporation and what the government is doing about part-time farmers.

I know that there is need for legisla tive change to accommodate people to work off the farm and earn a greater income off the farm, but I think in times like this it's essential that the line not be held too firm on that kind of a situation, because if it weren't for some of the part-time work that some farm people do, there'd be a lot worse situations than we now have on our hands; and what is the position of the government and MACC on part-time farmers? Is the Minister proposing a legislative change at this Session or where is he at with that particular part of the program? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, we did begin a review of credit-lending policies of the corporation at the beginning of this year and have just be gun. The whole area dealing with part-time farmers is but one of the areas of review, in terms of how effective our policies are and where we should be going in the long term with agricultural credit, whether we should be staying where we are in terms of the scope of the corporation, or whether we should be expanding its mandate and going further and being prepared to be a more significant player In ag lending than we are.

That's part of the review that is going on now with corporation staff and with our own departmental staff. The area of part-time farmers is one of those that I certainly have had represe ntations made to me and to see whether or not we could accommodate part­ time farmers. While we do recognize off-farm employments in our lending policies, there may have to be - and we are at this point in time - not cer tain whether it will require a legis lative change or whether it can be done by regulation or administrative by-law to deal with this whole area, we are looking at that now.

If it will require legislative changes, it is not my intent at this Session to be ready with it, because our review will not be complete. We hope that later on this year that review will be done and any decisions, if they require legislative change, would be made at a forthcoming Session. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, I would hope the Minister doesn't lollygag along on that particular one because I know of certain situations that we've been approached by and it can cause extreme hardsh ip. I would hope, particularly when we're in such a difficult time financially that the Minister, if necessary, would proceed.

I don't think there would be any problems in gettinJ support for that particular kind of a change. In fact, I would urge him to give consideration to it, if in fact it is causing the numbers of people problems, because it does. lt does accommodate those people who are desperately trying to make a living, whether driving a school bus or whether they're working in an oil field and particularly the southwest part of the province, or whether they're in the northern region working in the mine s to help make their payments and make the thing go.

I think it's essential that they be allowed to earn income off the farm and not be restricted from the funds of MACC. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we recog nize and the corporation recog nizes that kind of a situation for those who are on the program. Basically indicating that first call, as I would say, first call of the individual's time is to the farm. That being the case, there Is no 1205

Thursday, 24 May, 1984 problem with respect to receiving credit and ability to have a loan. Those who are clients of MACC certainly during the off season, there is no discouragement. In fact, if there is a