Volume 4 / PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4t h. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MARCH 19, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 15

March 19, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 482 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: 'The honourable the Premier. IB-1 HON. F.D. MOORES (PREMIER): Mr. Speaker, I am sorry today that fhe Leader of the Opposition is not here, Sir. I suppose one could say he is not here much lately, but that is not the reason I rose today. However, even internal squabbles should not be more important even to the Leader of the Opposition than the House, hut especially during the day of what I consider to be an important announcement.

As you know, Sir, the trawlermen's dispute has been going on for several weeks, several months actually. During that time negotiations have been very emotional and very intense. Government's role has always been, Sir, to try to play a part -in bringing about a settlement between the two parties, both the fish plant operators and the trawlermen's union. In that context, Sir, the Minister of Manpowl!r and Industrial Relations and his deputy _minister, Mr. Blanchard, have spent many days and many nights, particularly in the last four weeks, trying to bring both parties together to reach a negotiated settlement.

It is with great pleasure, Sir, today that I say the two negotiating teams that have met recently in Ottawa have signed a memorandum of agreement between those two teams. That will mean now when this memorandum of agreement is taken to the companies and to the trawlermen, if it is ratified by the membership that dispute will end. Mr. Speaker, it has been agreed by both parties that no press announcements will be made until the final ratification,if it happens and we hope it will, has come about.

After that time whether it is accepted or not we will in this •House give a full disclosure of everything that has happened, all the meetings, all the various details of it, and bring before the public of this province 1525

March 19, 1975 Tape 482 lB-2 what has been in fact a very intense and very difficult period of time. We, as a government, will bring forwa rd to the people of the province all the details that ·have gone into it, all the work t hat has gon e into it and explain the positions step by step . Si.r, it is with great pleasure today t hat I announce the melllOrandum of agreement ha~ heen signed by both negotiating parties. MR. SPEAKER; The honourable member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, l should not apologbe for the abs~se of the Leader of the Opposition. Ile is att~nding a meeting at Ottawa .

I am sure ·the Premier is probably aware of that. However , if he is not, that is where he is . Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the llou·se, are naturally very pleased and happy with t he statement by the Premier that there is a tentative agreement, or memorandum of an agreement reached between the trawlermen and the fish plant operatorf. We feel, Sir, that this strike has gone on much too long with a lot of fina ncia l hardship to the trawlermen and to other segments of our society. The 1526

March 19, 1975. Tape 483 RH - 1 trawlermen have effected almost the whole of this Province. However, I do not feel at this particular time that I should comment further on it as there will be a vote taking place within the next day or so, but it is our sincerest hope that the trawlermen will see fit to agree to bring this very serious strike to an end as quickly as possible so that the trawlermen may get back and the trawlers get out on the fishing ground and in conjunction with that the plant workers and other workers . will get .back to work as quickly as possible.

That is our sincere wish, Sir, and this is not a minute too late that this strike has been settled. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, there is not too much I can add to what the Premier has already said. I would, however, like to say just a couple of things. For the period of the last four or five weeks, negotiations between the Fish Trades Association representing all the companies who operate in Newfoundland and '.the Newfoundland Fishermen, Food and Allied Workers Union have been ongoing both in Ottawa and in St. John's.

All members are certainly aware that the talks have been aimed at trying to reach an agreement or settlement to the present trawler strike, trawler fishermen strike that has been going on since .January 2 of this yea'r. I was asked by the Premier to get involved on a mediation basis about four or five weeks ago. Since that time there have ' been many people involved 1and previous to that time, especially the Minister of Fisheries who is not here today but certainly has been intimately involved all through the negotiations.

The Premier , whom I consulted with daily, all my cabinet colleagues have given me some leeway in trying to bring an end to the dispute and I think sensibly trying to bring an end to the dispute 1527

March 19, 1975. Tape 483 RH - 2 on a labour management negotiation basis rather than any other . course of action that might appeaY frOlll time to time to be expedient. The Premier has already announced that an agreement in principle has be.en reached and I can say that very late last night in Ottawa the bargaining committees who were in Ottawa initialled an agreement which is quite lengthy and has a lot of terms in it, initialled an agreement that they will take back for ratif:l.catiort to their membership.

It is no_t my intention at this time to give any of the details of what: is in that agreement because the memorand1J111 has to pe taken back to the membership. It has to be voted on, but hopefully the membership will ratify the agreeinent, at least this is what the ~argaining committees hope, and they told me that it w:1.11 take approximately a week to find out whether there is ratification or not and say that the negotiati:ons have been long and t_edious.

I have had the press calling 111e qu:1.te of.ten and I have no desire to say that the press should not ' call or anything like that, but I will say that I have made sort of a general statement over the past four weeks that progress is being made and that we are contin1Jing talks and I have sort of wondered how much progress you can make before you reach the end of an agreement. But 1528

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 484 Page , l - mw t.his is the only thing that I could say. This is the only thing that I can say today 7 that an agreement between the two bargaining units have been reached. It will be taken back to the membership of the union for ratificationor otherwise, and withi~ a week we should know whether or not there is definitely an end to the trawlermen's strike that has been going on since January 2. I might also point out at this time that the end, if there is an end to the trawlermen's strike in this Province, it does not solve all the problems that we have.

We are quite well aware that both the parties,who were at the negotiating table in Ottawa, were quite well aware that there are a lot of other problems to solve. We know we have to go at these, and we know we have to try to find solutio~s to them. I suppose it is appropriate at this time as well to pay a tribute to a person who has done the real conciliation, and who has had a lot of experience and expertise to add to the whole situation, my Deputy Minister, Mr.

Blanchard, who has been in on this for the last four or five weeks, who has brought his expertise, long years of handling this sort of job, to the effort. As I think, or at least I hope, Mr. Speaker, that finally we admit some measure of success in this dispute. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other ministerial statements? PETITIONS: MR. R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of forty-two · employees of "The Daily News",through their association, their employees' association. I may say, Mr. Speaker, that these people live all around the St.

John's area, some of them in my district of St. John's South. The gist of the petition, of course, is in connection with the cut back in government advertising in "The Daily News", and of course, these employees are understandably concerned from their own point of view because they are ordinary citizens working for that newspaper just as they would work for any other business concern in this city or elsewhere in Newfoundland and Labrador. 1529

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 484 Page 2 - mw Their concern, of course, is for their own jobs and their own livelihoods, because a cut back of revenue of the proportion that government revenue is to the total revenue of the newspaper is, of course, serious to them in that it would affect in the normal course of things some jobs. I am very pleased to say, Mr. Speaker, that I have spoken to the government about this matter earlier today before presenting this petition in the House to ascertain what the position is.

I recall the Premier sometime ago making a public statement in which he said that this was _a normal sort of cut back; and I, of course, believe myself that the principle of cut backs is in the hands of the government, which has a right obviously .to cut back advertising in any media when it wishes .and as it deems necessary. The only thing, of course, is that no one member of the ~edia should be discriminated against and, of course, that was not the intention in this case.

I am assured that a decision has been made that will rectify this situation and in fact that this has already, and I think in this morning's paper, begun to be rectified - ·I think that is correct - and that all is ·well, and I am very pleased to be able to say this and to present the petition and also refe .r in fact to the solution of the need at this time. I would ask that the petition be tabled and referred to the appropriate department. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to rise in support of the petition presented by the member for St. John's South on behalf of forty-two employees of !'The Daily News", concerning the cut backs in the advertising in the only morning aaily newspaper in this Province. 1530

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 485 NM - 1 MR.

ROWE: Sir, there of course are forty-two jobs oQviously involved here and "The Daily News" is getting back on its two. feet and it was a very serious thing when th-is advertising was withdrawn and it hit at the very principle, Sir, at the time, of the very freedom of the press in this Province and the word~ and the revelations of the Minister of Public Works I believe at the time was indeed a shocking revelation when he said that he was in conversation with the editor of "The Daily News" and it was hisT he said that this was done and this was his personal reasons he gave for doing this, because of the editorials in "The Daily News", Sir.

A person, Sir, who is in a Cabinet, does not have a personal view under such circumstances. He represents the Cabinet and the government of this Province, Sir, and it was indeed shocking to hear the Minister of Public Works - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROWE: It was indeed shocking, Sir, to hear the Minister of Public Works get up and admit that he threatened to cut back on advertising in "The Daily News" because of their · editorials. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

HICKMAN: I gather the honourable gentleman is through with his tirade now so there is not much point in persuing the point of order but obviously the honourable gentleman was quite out of order. He was not supporting the petition at all. He was making a speech, if you can call it that. MR. SIMMONS: Point of order, Mr. Speaker, only the last week - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMlNS: Only in the last week, Mr.

Speaker, we had an example where the Minister of Social Services rose ·not to support a petition I presented but to take exception to the prayer of the petition and I submit that my colleague, the Member for St. 1531

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 485 NM - 2 Barbe North, has the same right to speak to a petition whether or not he is supporting it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair at no time gave any indication that a member does not have the right to speak to a petition. The member does not have to support a ~etition. The member debates the prayer of the petition, that is whe~e he is being irrelevant and out of order. The honourable Member for St. Barbe North was quite in order in the first part of his speech but he was tending to be a little irrelevant near the ead but I am assuming that the honourable Member for St.

Barbe North is finished, If he has not I will permit him to continue. MR. ROWE: Your assumption was a little off, Mr. Speaker, I am not quite finished but I will not become involved in debate. I was simply referring to statements that were made in this honourable House~ Sir, and the record speaks for itself. MR. SIMMONS: They do not want to hear. MR.

ROWE: Now, Sir, I and my colleagues, we do support the prayer of this petition and I am extremely happy to hear that the administration have made a decision to reinstate the advertising• If that is so I have not gone through and looked at. the ll;overnment advertising in "The Daily News" this morning. We are extremely pleased to hear that the government has made a decision to reinstate the government advertising in "The Daily News", Sir. This is the only morning daily newspaper in this Province.

I think it is very important that every assistance possible, whether it is from government or private enterprise, be given to put some life into that newspaper and keep it going. It is a very valuable paper for this Provice. ·Now, Sir, with respect to my remarks concerning the remarks of the Minister of Public Works, the record speaks for itself. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, in supporting that petition may I say on behalf of government that this administration has no hesitancy in saying that "The Daily News" of this Province makes a very excellent 1532

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 485 contribution insofar as the news media are concerned. Mr. Speaker, for those of us who had the great privilege of being born and raised on the South Coast and understand the South Coast, may I at the same time coDD11end NM "The Daily News" for its excellent service in continuing to carry on on a weekly basis "The Burin Peninsula Post." REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR, SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance, 3 HON. H.R.V. EARLE; Minister of Finance: I ask leave, Mr. Spea~er, to present a petition from a group known as The Citizens Health Group of the Belleoram area.

This is a very large petition and is signed, I should think, by just about every person of voting age in the area. The prayer of the petition is that dental services be provided for that area of Fortune Bay. The reason being of course, Mr.

Speaker, that there has never been a dentist, a practicing dentist in that area and the people concerned in order to get dental services have to travel to Grand Falls, a distance of approximately 150 miles, at a taxi fare cost generally ranging about $60_ per trip, quite apart from the expenses incurred enroute and while they are waiting for treatment and the inconvenience of hav·ing to go such long distances. The people have gotten· together in this Citizens Health Group and they are showing a great deal of co-operation and willingness to work for benefits in the area. They are 1533

!-larch 19, 1975 Tape 486 IB-1 very appreciative of the improved health services which my honourable colleague, the Minister of Health, has been able to g1ve them recently in that area by setting up a very fine clinic at a place called Mose Ambrose which is in about the center of the area. The health services generally have improved greatly over the past year or so, but they still would like to have the visit of a dentist to the area.

They are quite reasonable in their request, and they just ask that a qualified dental person be sent to the area to survey the needs of the group and the citizens of that area and also to try to take immediate steps to have a dentist visit the area at least four times a year. They realize that while there are only sixty-five dentists practicing in Newfoundland, they are keeping their request at what they term a reasonable level in which I agree with them that if they could enjoy the privilege of having a dentist in the area four times a year I think that is a vety minimum requirement.

They go on to say that. the Citizens' Health Group will assist in any way that they can, and will arrange for a location for the dentist to practice and also living acco!Tll11odations for him or her while they are in the area. It is with great pleasure that I support this petition, Mr. Speaker, because this is just another step in improving the health services in the area. I am sure that the people are entitled to this type of service. I am going to use every means to bring it to the attention of the Department of Health to see if this request cannot he met.

I would like this petition to be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. AN HONOURABLE MEMBF.R: I will be tabled. You can count on it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise i.n support of the petition presented by the honourable Minister of Finance. The prayer of the petition, of course, is one that affects the Connaigre Peninsul11 part of my district, the Harbour Breton, He.nnitage, Gaultois, Seal Cove area. The prayer points very clearly to a problem that these 1534

March 19, 1975 Tape 486 IB-2 people in concert with many other people in the more rural parts of Newfoundland and Labrador have as a problem and have had for . many, many years. One of the ways, of course, of alleviating the problem because there are dentists who are willing to go there on an itinerant basis. There are dentists available, I have talked to at least three myself who come to mind now who are quite prepared to go into that area, Mr. Speaker, on a regular basis, three, four or five times a year.

If government would provide or if someone, local municipalities or the provincial government, 1f someone would provide the equipped clinic space, the chair and the kind of thing that is perhaps required for them to go in and do their work. Now, I sincerely hope that - I am sorry the Minister ,of Health is not here today and I wish he were because I would like to hear him on this particular subject. I have noted in the Throne Speech the government's intentions in tenns of mobile clinics and so on . I do hope that this comes to fruition this year.

I have seen it in Throne Speeches before since this administration took ' office. I do hope that this time we can look forward to the promise being carried out, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Do I still have the floor, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable member for Hermitage has been somewhat irrelevant to the prayer of this petition in the last few remarks that he made. MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I shall try to be relevant , I was. referring to government statements of intentions on the subject, and I was sincerely hoping that those statements of intention with respect to providing dental service to rural Newfoundland, statements of intention which had been made on many occasion in the past and again in this Throne Speech, will this time be kept, be carried out. That is my sincere hope. If so, the minister who presented the petition will have reason to 153!>

March 1q, 1975 Tape 48fi report back to his constituents as I will and say that at long last it 1s bein~ done. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? 153b IB-3

March 19, 1975 Tape 487 (Afternoon) PK - 1 REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. G. ROUSSEAU: (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the regulations in respect of Highway Traffic Act Amendments to the Churchill Falls-Esker and Twin Falls area. Also on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Public Works and Services, I would like to table the Department of Public Works and Services St. John's Arte and Culture Centre Parking Regulations. And also, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Public Works and Services who made a commitment in this .House sometime ago that he would be tabling all the relevant letters and proposals in respect to the recent accommodations invitations we extended I hereby on his behalf table these letters and documents relating to the recent request for invitations for accommodations. MR. SPEAKER: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN The Hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, I wish to answer a question tabled by the honourable Member for Bell Island on Monday, March 10, 1975.

It is only now I have been able to get this information together, and rather than delay it any longer I thought this would be an appropriate time to table the answer to the question. The question asked by the honourable Hember for Bell Island is, since March 31, 1973 and as of the current date what is the nwnber of offenders who were admitted to each of the following government penal institutions ; (

a) The Salmonier Prison Camp, tb) The Harbour ' Grace Jail, (

c) Her Majesty's Penitentiary St. John's? And who were of the following ages; (1) less than sixteen years, (2) sixteen years but less than seventeen years; (3) seventeen years but less than eighteen years, (4) eighteen years but less than nineteen years, (5) nineteen years and over? Mr. Speaker, the answer to these questions are as follows : (

a) From April 1, 1973 to March 5, 1975 the number ,of admissions in 153·1

March 19, 1975 Tape 487 (Afternoon) PK - 2 the following age groups were: under sixteen years of age, fifteen; (I will take this rather slowly so that the press can write it down because I do not have any other copies) sixteen years and under seventeen, fifty-seven; seventeen years and under eighteen, one hundred and forty-nine; eighteen years and under nineteen, one hundred and sixty-four; nineteen years and over, one thousand one hundred and sixty-three. And I repeat, Mr. Speaker, that covers the period April 1, 1973 to March 5, 1975. It is a two year period. (

b) During the period under review April 1973 to March 5, 1975 there were no tranfers to Harbour Grace Jail. This institution has been closed for inmate occupancy since August 1, 1971. I must conf _ess, Mr. Speaker, as an aside I am amazed at the justice critic for the Opposition, the honourable the Member for Bell Island was unaware of the fact ·that Harbour Grace Jail has been closed, permanently closed for more than five years. (

c) The Salmonier Correctional Institute is a satellite of H.U. Penitentiary. And the inmate population is made up of minimum type security inmates. They are transferred from the main institution on recollDllend~tion of the Inmate Selection Board. Inmates under seventeen years of age are not transferable and serve their sentence at the main institution. There are no admissions directly from the courts to the Salmonier Correctional Institution. All admissions are to Her Majesty's Penitentiary. Inmates found suitable are transferr~d as about stated.

The average daily population of the Salmonier Correctional Institution ranging in age seventeen years and over from April 1, 1973 to February 28, 1975 was 37. 1538

March 19, 1975. Tape 488 RH - 1 MR. MURPHY: - Before you sit down - under seventeen - What is minimum age for admission to the male penitentiary? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware if there is a minim1.D11 age. Most juveniles as the honourable minister is aware dre lookr>il after at the Boys Home at Whitbourne and at Pleasantville, but there have been cases of serious offences where the courts have directed that someone under sixteen years of age had to be incarcerated, hopefully far a short time, in Her Majesty's Jenitentiary.

But over a two year period there was only a total of fifteen and they were not for a very lengthy period of time. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable }tlnister of Industrial Development. HON. W. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to two questions that were placed on the Order Paper. The first is the Tuesday, March 11 question number sixteen asked by the ·honourable Member for Bell Island: What was the total amount of funds paid Mr.

James Donald Wilson to date for salary,fees, per diem allowances, expenses and any other remuneration in respect of his service to dismantle and dispose of certain equipment -and buildings following the closing of the Newfoundland Steel Plant located at Octagon Pond? The answer, Sir, is: Since the closing of the Newfoundland Steel Plant, the following disbursements have beei:t made to Mr.

James Donald Wilson in respect of all services provided . in connection therewith, professional fees, $11,160, expenses, $3,783.47 broken down as follows - representing secretarial service, $2,200; photostating, $444.21; postage, $400; telephones, $653.57; car mileage, $55.25; miscellaneous disbursements of $30.44. I might take this opportunity which I am quite happy to have the Member for Bell Island raise to congratulate and- thank Mr. Wilson for the tremendous job he did in helping us clean up a rather difficult situation which we inherited at· Octagon Pond.

His services, his expertise, his drive and ability are beyond question 1539

March 19, 1975. Tape 488 RH - 2 and tne Government of Newfoundland is very grateful indeed for his activities.

I have also, Sir, the answer to question nwnber eight,also asked by the Member for B~ll Island which was on the Order Paper of Monday, March 10 and it asks the Minister of Industrial Development for the following information: For the fiscal year which began April 1, 1973 and as of a current date, what is the nwnber of applications for financial assistance in respect of which financial assistance was offered by the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation for each Electoral District and showing a_lso for each Electoral District the value of financial assistance so offered the persons and companies making the aforementioned applications?

This is an exceileot opportunity, Sir, for me on behalf of the Development Corporation to place before the people of Newfoundland through the media and through this honourable House the story of the Development Corporation. The number of projects is broken down by sector.

There is tourism, ten, $1,249,500 with an equity participation of $10,000; forestry, seven · projects, $1,145,000 with equity participation of $334,000; agriculture, th_ree projects with a loan total of $362,000 and no equity participation; the "service sector, two projects, total loan amount of $555,000 with an equity participation of $50,000; fifteen manufacturing projects with a total loan amount of $1,963,000 with an equity participation of $349,000; fish processing, eight projects, $544,000 with an equity amount of $50,000; fish harvesting, two projects, $438,000 with no equity; mining, three projects, $1,285,000 with an equity participation of $160,019; other projects, five, for a t c~a l amount of $469,500 with an equity participation.

The grand total of that and the number of projects is 1540

March 19, 1975. Tape 488 RH - 3 ' fifty-five. The total loan amount is $8,011,000. The equity amount is $983,019 for a total amount of $8,994,019. These figures, Sir, represent individual projects only. Our total number of loans is seventy-nine. The difference is comprised of loans that have been supplementary to projects already listed. The honourable member also asked that these be br~ken down by sector, percentage wise.

The manufacturing participation was twenty-six per cent for fifteen loans; forestry, sixteen ­ point,...four per cent for seven loans; tourism, fourteen per cent for ten loans; mining, sixteen per cent for three loans; agriculture, four per cent for three; service industries, seven per cent for two; fish harvesting, five pei cent for t~o; fish . processing, seven per cent for eight and others, . five foi five per cent. Now, by district, Mr.

Speaker, I am quite -anxious to lay this before the House because it may set to rest any fears that may have arisen among some of the honourable members opposite or indeed some of the populace as there may be some political skulduggery.

Bonavista North, the amount of the loans, $706,000, the amount of equity, $44,000, three projects; Bonavista South, $30;,000 in lcian and $15,000 in equity, only two loans; Carbonear, $110,000 in loans; Ferryland, $63,000 in loans; Fortune Bay, $274,000 in loans, $41 in equity, two projects; the District of Gander, $410,000, $65,000 of which was in addition equity for three projects; the District of Green Bay, $1,837,000 with $160,000 equity, s_i.x projects; Harbour Grace, $1,030,000, $100,000 equity for four projects; the District of Harbour Main, $180,000 only in loa~s, $28,000 in equity for two projects; Hermitage, $585,000 , in •loans and $69,000 in equity for one project; Humber East, $462,000 in loans for four projects; Humber West, $664,000 in loans, $105,000 in equity; Labrador North·, $344,000 in loans, one 1541

March 19, 1975. Tape 488 RH - 4 project; Lewisporte, $30,000, Mr. Speaker, one project; the District of Port de Grave, $38,800 in loans, one project, no ·equity participation; the District of Port au Port, $125,000 in loans with no equity and one project; St. Barbe South, $320,000 in loans with two projects; the District of St. Georges, $167,000 in loans, no equity participation for two; the six Districts of St.

John's, $1,584,000 in loans, $260,000 in additional equity for thirteen projects; Trinity North, $25,000 only in loans, no equity for one project; Trinity South, $296,000 in loans with no equity for .four projects; the District of Twillingate, $15,000 in loans, no equity participation and one project; White Bay North, $369,000 in loans, $30,000 in equity, three projects; White Bay South, $200,000 in loans with one project. The totals are the same, sixty-seven projects. · Then we come into the total number of applications which the honourable member also asked for.

I might say only that up from 1971 when the first announcement of the conception of the Development Corporation was announced, from 1971 until July 25, 1974 there were 1,600 inquiries. From July 25, 1974 until February 25, 1975 there were an additional 310 inquiries for a total of 1,910; Now, all these inquiries were answered. People were asked for more particulars. Application forms were sent to them, the ground rules. The standards of the Corporation were explained to them and we had :a relatively small number of actual applications.

There were eighty-one applications approved and sixty-one rejected for a total of 149. Then we have a breakdown, once again, in various numbers, but I will not take up the time of the honourable House. Sir, I simply wanted to get on record the story of the development corporation. That is a little more than a year in existence and I thank the honourable Member for Bell Island for giving me the opportunity. 1542

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 489 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. ROUSSEAU (Minister of Transportation ,and Communications): On behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Public Works and Services, I would like to reply to the Question No. 25 asked by the Hon. Member for Bell Island, directed to the Hon. Minister of Public Works and Services, appearing on the Order Paper of March 13, 1975. The question was: What plans_do go~~nt have for the construction of an addition or an extension to Confederation Building, St.

John's or for the construction of one or more buildings on the same site as Confederation Building, being either contiguous with or adjacent to Confederation Building? The answer to that question, Mr. Speaker, is that the Bureau of Management and Consulting of the Department of Supply and Services in Ottawa carried out a study during 1973, of government's immediate and future accommodation needs in the St. John's area.

This study was subseq~ently updated by · the Department of Public Works and Services of the provincial government and, adjusted in light of additional requirements and a time lapse of a further twelve months. As a result of these surveys, tenders are being invited, indeed, they have been invited, for.rental proposals to provide up to 400,000 square feet of office accommodation in the immediate St. John's area, which space will be required in total by 1980.

At the· same time, the Department of Public Works and Services has been requested to prepare and update estimates for the construction of a 'new government owned building to provide similar accommodations. Tenders are received, of course, in comparison in that we may determine which is the most economical course to follow. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: It being Private Members' Day, Motion No. 2 was being debated on the last Private Members' Day, and I think the Hon. Member for Bell Island adjourned the debate. As the Hon.

Member for Bell Island is not in his place today, then I shall have to recognize another honourable member. 1543

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 489 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to arise AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudiile) •. MR. BARRY: Lis_ten and you will learn something.for a change. MR. SPEAKER: Order ,' please! · MR. BARRY: It is a pleasure for me, Mr. Speaker• to arise to support this resolution today, a resolution that if implemented could do a lot to improve conditions for our inshore fishermen. The gist of the resolution, Mr.

Speaker, as has already been pointed out is to attempt to have a ban placed on fishing on the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season which, I understand, runs from January to April, the month of February from the statistics that I have seen, being an especially important month when we have seen the greatest catches on the Hamilton Banks in the past. Because, Mr. Speaker, the Hamilton Banks . are the spawning groundsfor species of fish that are fished by our inshore fishermen, the cod particularly, Mr.

Speaker, which goes to the deep water off the Hamilton Banks and comes in in the sunmertime onshore and provides the basis for our inshore cod fishery, Mrr Speaker. It is crucially important to our inshore fishery, particularly along the Northeast Coast, but ·1 submit in other parts of the Province, including my own district as well, Mr. Speaker, it is crucially important that we continue to see this this movement, this onshore movement of fish from the Hamilton Banks closer to our shore. Now the experts say, Mr.

Speaker, that they have been able to establish a direct correlation between the amount of fish caught offshore and the amount caught inshore, a correlation which is inverse in that the more that is caught offshore, Mr. Speaker, the 1 ~ss there is to move inshore. Not only is the quantity available inshore affected, Mr. Speaker, we also have-the size of the fish that is available to our inshore fishermen reduced. There are smaller fish coming inshore as the offshore catch increases. 1544

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 489 Page 3 - mw Mr. Speaker, I really find it difficult to see why Canada has not been able to have this position, this ban on fishing on the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season, why they have not been able to have this principle accepted al the ICNAF meetings in the past? It was raised at the meeting last year. I have the notes from the meeting here. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, eminently sensible that if you can arrange to have the fish come to you, then that must be a lot more efficient, a lot less costly than to go to the expense of going offshore to catch the same fish.

It is not just a matter of economics, of course, Mr. Speaker, because here we have a very important social factor as far as our Province is concerned.

When you consider the number of our inshore fishermen, when you consider the fact that sixty per cent of those are along the Nort~east Coast and that they are almost totally dependent upon the movement of cod, particularly onshore from the Hamilton Banks, you can see that the thwust of this resolution makes an awful lot of sense, both because there must be vast savings of fuel and other costs, __ if the fish are coming to us rather than us having to go to them; and secondly, Mr.

Speaker, even if - I do not believe this is the case - even if it should have been the situation that it was not as economic a proposition to catch fish, these fish, through the inshore fishery rather than while they are spawning on the Hamilton Banks, I submit that for social reasons , because the livelihood of so many of our •Newfoundlanders depend upon the inshore fishery that this province has no choice but to insist in the strongest possible terms that the federal government attempt at the up-coming Law of the Sea Conference, a conference which eo111111enced in Geneva the day before yesterday, last Monday, we must see that the federal government makes a strong case to finally have this ban placed on fishing on the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season. 1545

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 489 Page 4 - mw Now i have seen statements by people who should know, by certain fishing experts that the ban would not be necessary because of overfishing. In other words, they are saying that the maximum sustainable annual yield is greater than the amount of fish that is now being caught. So that the ban is not necessary in order to reduce the quanti~ of fish caught. The bans main purpose would be to permit the fish to move inshore. That is fine.

But here is one who personally does not feel all that confident when I hear o~r federal so-called fishing experts saying that the maximum sustainable annual yield is such and such and that we are not catching anywhere near it. Because, Mr. Speaker, we have seen our experience with the herring fishery. We have seen what had !iappened with respect to the ICNAF quotas, where the quotas are, in my opinion, settled at an unreasonably high level, an unrealistically high level, at a level that is greater than the average annual catch that has been in many areas over the past several years.

I have no great confidence, Mr. Speaker, that the figures being used for the maximum sustainable annual yield are, in fact, correct. 1540

March 19, 1975 Tape 490 IB-1 I believe that there has been a serious ignoring of fede·ral responsibility in this field. The federal government has ignored its responsibility with respect to research particularly, Mr. Speaker. It is only through adequate research - MR. THOMS: The member is indeed giving us an interesting lecture but there are only ten members in the House. Could the Speaker ask other members to be placed in this House because there is not a quorum at the present time? Could you see to that, M~. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Would the clerk count the House please1 There is a quorum.

MR. MURPHY: How are the blueberry pickers? MR. BARRY: I am not sure - are we waiting for the honourable Leader of the Opposition. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He cannot make it, more serious busi~ess. _MR. BARRY: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, I believe that the federal government has shirked its responsibility, has not live.d up to its responsibility, its duty, to see that the proper research is carried out with respect to our fisheries stocks.

Because I know that there is this serious lack of research I therefore do not have confidence in the limits that they are setting, either for the maximum sustainable annual yield or the ICNAF quotas that are being set in various areas, Mr. Speaker. I have serious doubt whether these figures bear any relation to the actual realities of the situation with respect to our fish stocks.

I thtnk that this is a case where the federal governroent is ignoring, not just a national responsibility, not just a responsibility to protect the livelihood of fishermen in Newfoundland and Labrador and in the other Atlantic Provinces, but I think here we have a case of the federal government and the other fishing nations who are abusing the stocks off our coast, of ignoring their international responsibilities, 154J

March 19, 1975 Tape 490 Mr. Speaker,-because we have the potential offshore for a sizable continuing source of protein in a protein short world, in a world where we have people starving to death, serious famines in Africa, African countries, in Asian countries. Yet we have this cavalier, irresponsible attitude towards the amount of fish that is caught every year. I suhmit, Mr. Speaker, they do not have a ciue how long IB-2 the fishing effort could be continued at this rate.

They do not have a clue.· It could be the same thing as happened with respect to the herring fishery where ~ompanies are proceeding merrily along presumably ·with the blessing of the federal government, investing in meal plants, Mr. Speaker. When was the last time you had a meal of fresh herring, Mr. Speaker? .A long ti.me ago,I would submit. Yet we had all these meal plants being built.

We had this great effort being put on catching this limitless amount of herring under quotas set with the blessing of the federal government~ although I am not familfar with the details, I would submit, probably at the suggestion of the federal government based on the so called great expertise of the federal government. What happened? Mr. S-peaker, for a while there you could not find a herring off our coast. I understand that the situation is improving . somewhat again now, but it terrifies me when I think that the same thing could be happening with the cod. It is happening with the red fish in the Gulf of St.

Lawrence. It is probably happening with the flounder, yellow tail, all the species, Mr. Speaker. There has not been sufficient research done in this area. It is time that this situation changed. This is why I want to see, following these Law of the Sea Conference, Canada end up with responsibility for control, conservation practices, control of the fishing effort out to the e~ge of the Continental Margin. Mr. Speaker, Canada cannot stop there.

Canada has got to increase the effort it has been putting into conservation, increase the effort it has been putting into research, increase the effort it has been putting into improving the efficiency of the fishing effort, Mr. Speaker. That is not totally at odds with the first propostiion. We can have hoth proper con·servation measures and we can also im-prove 1548

March 19, 1975 Tape 490 IB-3 the efficiency of our catching capability. We can do both,- but the first thing that must be done, Mr. Speaker, is to ensure that there are some fish to catch. It does not matter how economic or efficient you are, if there is nothing to fish being efficient does not help very much. I see the experts tell us that Canada's effort off Labrador and off the Hamilton Banks, the Northern Waters, is unlikely to increase over the next few years because of the high cost of ,operating there. I wish somebody could tell me, Mr.

Speaker, how it is that we can have fishing vessels come from Russia, from all over the world, and they are not bothered by the high cost. I do not accept the fact that because Russia does not have a free enterprise system or the East Polish do not have a free enterprise system that therefore they are not interested in cost. That does not make sense, Mr. Speaker. They are interested in cost because if they could buy it from us by expending less effort, utilizing less resources, less men, less gasoline, less other-products, it would pay them, Mr.

Speaker,to buy the fish from Canada and put the resources they save into other efforts, whatever those efforts might be. It could be mining. It could be building railroads. It . could be building roads. It could be building factories. So, in that sense, Mr Speaker, the fact that some of our communist countries are not free enterprise countries, that does not mean they are not interested in cost. It does not mean that they are not interested in what it takes, the amount of resources it takes to catch a certain amount of fish. So, if nothing else, Mr.

Speaker, comes out of this debate, I would like for somebody to give me some indication why it is that these countries can come for thousands of miles · and fish off our shores and catch all the fish they want while we are told that our Canadia~ ships, perhaps our Newfoundland ships as well, will n·ot be going into these Northern Waters at least for the_ next few years because it is too costly. I do not understand it, Mr. Speaker. I do not understand it. Now, the most important thing, Mr. Speaker, the most ~mportant fact that would come from implementing this suggestion, this resolution, is the fact 1549

March 19, 1975 Tape 491 (Afternoon) PK - 1 that you would have some stablization in the inshore fishery, you would not have the fluctuations in catch or the size of the fish caught tha.t we have seen over the last several years. You would see, Mr. Speaker, the fish moving inshore in the same relative quantities each year, and relatively the same amounts available for catching by the inshore fishermen.

You would not have this unpredictability to the same extent - you still wouldj there would still be your acts of God, and the heat of the water, the amount of ice, any number of environmental factors 1I suppose 1all affect the amount of fish available for our inshore fishermen. But this one factor at least would be stabilized. We would know if there was a ban on fishing on the Hamilton Banks, that whatever fish were there would be available inshore and ?e available to our inshore fishermen • ..:. So st.a~ilization is very important.

Get rid of the fluctuations so that our fisherme _n can plan, so that our governments can plan, to get the most for our people from the inshore fishery. I am told that eighty per cent of the catch on the Hamilton Banks is caught between the months of Februa_ry and April when the fish concentrate for spawning. Again, I s~y there has to be a more efficient operation to let the fish come to shore rather than having to send me11 out hundreds of miles from shore in order to catch them. The thrust of this resolution, Mr.

Speaker, the affect of this resolution would.be to benefit not just Newfoundlanders, not just Canadian, it would benefit mankind generally, Mr. Speaker. Because as I said we have a protei~ shortage in the world,we have people starving, and we must conserve this annual source of protein which can go on indefinitely if properly managed. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to see this Rouse unanimously support this resolution. I would like the federal government to wake up. It bothers me, Mr.

Speaker, when I read the minutes of the ICNAF meeting and I see references to a sort of a weak presentation of this proposition, a presentation of a ban on fishing on the Hamilton Banks put forth by the Canadian delegation. They put it forward sort of half heartedly. Then we see the response, Mr. Speaker, that oh, the 1550

. ~ . March 19, 1975 Tape 491 (Afternoon) PK - 2 reason that the inshore fishermen in Newfoundland and Labrador are not catching the same amount of fish, they are not using efficient methods, Mr. Speaker. They are inefficient. What a slap in the face, Mr. Speaker. And I do not see our Canadian delegation over­ turning a table or something when this sort of thing is said at these meetings. They are very mild about it all.

Th§!)' did point out however that regardless of the efficiency of the inshore fishermen it is an established fact that the productivity of the inshore fishermen has gone down ten times since they started fishing on the Hamilton Banks. That our fishermen were ten times as productive, our inshore fishermen,were ten times as productive when we did not have this foreign fishing effort during the spawning season on the Hamilton Banks. So I do not care what any for~ign country says at any ICNAF Conference, Mr. Speaker, our fishermen will match the~elves against any in the world in terms of efficiency.

They have not had all the breaks up to now, Mr. Speaker. Our government have committed to seeing that the technology, the latest in technology is made available to our fishermen, the latest in gear so that we ~an ~tch the rest of the world in efficiency. But let us not have 'the facts of life ignored, Mr. Speaker, by having inefficiencies thrown in our face.

Let us have our Canadian Government, our federal government, put quite firmly to the countries that are fishing off our shores,to the Law of the Sea Conference that when you see a tenfold decline in the inshore catch, at the same time you see .this vast" increase in the catch on the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season they have got to -be some way related, Mr. Speaker. There has got to - be some relation. So let us see the federal government, Mr. Speaker, become a little more hard-nosed at these international meetings. And let us see this House unanimously support this resolution, M'.r.

Speaker, because we have thousands, tens of thousands of Newfoundlanders who are relying on the inshore fishery, who want to fish, who enjoy it as a profession, who are proud of themselves, their way of life, but who are terribly 1551

March 19, 1975 Tape 491 (Afternoon) PK - 3 concerned that this way of life is going to disappear. Because they can see every year, Mr. Speaker, ·a declininy catch. There is nothing they can do about it. They can improve their boats all they want. They can improve ~heir gear all they want. There is nothing they can do about the fact, Mr. Speaker, that there is less fish coming to shore. Now the only way this is going to be controlled is if we get this ban on fishing in the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season - and, Mr.

Speaker, I ask every member in this House to give his wholehearted support to this resolution. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Member for Placentia East. MR. F. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this resolution. ' I understand from the debate that while it was introduced by the Hon. Member for Bonavista South, the resolution ;eeads:

Be It Resolved that this legislature urge the federal government to make a strong case at the up-coming Law of the Sea Conference that a ban be placed on fishing on the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season. That this should be amended to read - That the legislature urge the federal government to make a strong case at the up-coming ICNAF meeting - because apparently it is ICNAF1 not the Law of the Sea Conference,that deals with the question of control on the Hamilton Banks. I suppose, Mr.

Speaker, at this session of the House more than any other session certainly since the last election that we have heard a considerable amount of debate on the fishery, and various aspects of it. And one could not help but be impressed by some of the speakers in this debate who spoke with a great deal of personal knowledge of the problems facing different aspects of the fishery. I re~er in particular, Mr. Speaker, to a speech made by the honourable Member for Burgeo.

I think that was one of the finest spee che.· that I have heard him make,and to any of us who were present at the time he made it I am sure were very, very impressed with the content of his speech 1 his reference in particular to the effect of the gill net on the inshore fishery. 155t!

March 19, 1975 Tape 491 (Afternoon) I think, Mr. Spee.leer, we heard in this Hoµse here one of the best submissions tha.t have ever been made to any House of Assembly Qn that particular point. I think it bears repeating because I have heard so many fishermen in my own. district tell me Pk - 4 it is the same, and that :Ls the drastic affect that the g;Lll nets are having on the inshore fishery because when the nets are iost and they sink to the bottom they re~loat, more fish is caught in them and they sink. and th:is goes on ati.d on and on. Also, Mr.

Speaker, we heard the last sp~aker saying he was after just what stand and how s.trong a stand Ottawa sh;,tild take on this: I can understand the anxiety . and indeed · ·the . frustrations of the fishemen of Newfoundland when they hear tij! in this ,tagislature debate this resolutio .n a:s we did with the previous :i;-esolutiob. asking Canada to exercise control over the Continental Shelf. But, Mr. Speaker, I suppose if we talked from now until Doomsday really it would not matter that much because the real action lll1,1St be taken by the 1 55 'J J. .:,

March 19, 1975 Tape No, 492 NM - 1 Government of Canada. Unfortunately, what happens here I suppose is always as in any democracy> it is a question of politics and here you have this question of the plight of the inshore fishermen being decided in our parliament on the Mainland of Canada consisting of 266 members and we have in that House of Commons seven. We have· seven members and our life blood, I suppose, the fishery is depending on just what action this particular forum will take to contr~l the resource.

I think, Mr, Speaker, the history of the lack of control effective to date will clearly indicate that the fishery does not carry that much significance with the 6overnment of Canada. I am told that the value of the fish caught and produced and processed, represents less than one or two per cent of the Gross National Product of Canada.

So that if the Government is trading on an international basis, which it is and must, and if you are dealing with a customer and you are talking about an item of trade that represents a large percentage of your production, certainly you are going to give .considerably more attention to it than you would to something that contributes one per cent or two per cent or sometimes less than one per cent. That apparently appears to be the position of the fishery.

You know, Mr, Speaker, we heard the Minister of Fisheries read in the debate on the previous day on this particular resolution, a submission made by his predecessor, the honourable Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Collins at the time and this was dated February 13, 1974, dealing with the closure of the Hamilton Inlet Bank. We have heard all the debate her~ al i last Wednesday, we hear again today, we are asking this House and undoubtedly it appears that this ~esolution is going to receive the unanimous consent of the House. But just again what action is taking place? 1554

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 492 NM - 2 I think in answer to a question raised by some honourable gentleman when the Minister of Fisheries spoke, they asked was there an answer to the letter and I think the indication was not to his knowledge. I think, Mr, Speaker; this letter crystalizes the problem and the position taken by the government with respect to the Hamilton Banks and I think it bears repe~ition because it puts · in crystal form the problem and what is suggested to solve it. This is again dated February 13, 1974. The ltl.nister at that time, Mr. Collins, goes on re closure II of the Hamilton Banks.

As you are well awar!!~ the Government of Newfoundland is very concerned about the intensive foreign fishing fleet activity in the Northwest Atlantic watess 1 sharp declines in catches from this area and the current unhealthy economic state of the f'rovinc:e inshore fishery.· There is every indiaation to believe that offshore fishing effort has been a significant factor effecting availability of the cod resource, in particular in the inshore waters and the performance of this sector continues to reflect problems related to resource availability and resource accessibility, "of growing concern to my government is the extent to which foreign fishing activity on the Haailton Bank is contributing to an alarmi.ng reduction in inshore landings of fishermen on the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland and the Coast of Labrador. '1Since the codfish constitutes the economic backbone of these areas, it is proposed that strong steps be taken to reduce foreign fishing pressure which is directed toward the Hamilton Inlet Bank II cod stock.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I suppose there is hardly a Newfoundlander alive today who cannot recall the stories about the Labrador fishery and how important it was to so many Newfoundlanders. That apparently is the segment of the industry that is being so drastically effected by the fi.shing during the spawning season on the Hamilton Bank. 1555

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 492 NM - 3 The minister continues, "The indi~enous cod stock of ,, ICNAF in these divisions,and that refers to the Hamilton Inlet " Banks, is referred to as the Labrador East Newfotmdland stock and scientific evidence i.ndicates that large numbers of cod concentrate on the Hamilton Inlet Bank, the major spawning ground of this stock during the February - April spawning period.

It is during this period that the resource is exposed to very intense foreign fishing effort with greater than eighty per cent of the total annual catch of approximately 300,000 to 600,000 metric tons being takin, 1/ during this period of heavy resource concentration, Now, Mr. Speaker, here are these statistics and the last speaker in the debate asked why is it that the Newfoundland vessels are not getting some of that significant amount of fish?

Only a night or so ago I was speaking to a gentleman who works on the water­ front and he told me that he was aboard one of the draggers from West Germany that just came from the Hamilton Banks with practically a full load of some of the biggest fish that was caught there for years and years, the largest fish, the largest fish and this ship was a ship that had all the facilities to process fish and here were all our draggers tied up and even 1 I am told 1that these draggers who were fishing, that they are not suited and equipped to fish on these Banks.

The previous speaker, the honourable Minister of Mines and Resources, asks a question, why is it that the fishermen can come from West Germany and Russia ,and fish on these Banks and catch such large quantities of fish and obviously at economic prices. I am told, Mr. Speaker, about people who were aboard that ship that I just referred to. That ship left West Germany on December 19, and it did not see port until a week or so ago when it came into St. John's.

So perhaps, Mr, Speaker, when one considers the long period at sea, the sacrifice which the members of that type of a craft must endure, that maybe suggests the answer. . I' The minister in his letter continues, the major characteristic of this stock and of direct significance to the Newfoundland inshore 1551:i

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 492 NM - 4 fishery is the shore or feeding migration in the early s1111111er and an offshore movement in the late Summer and Fall. 11 Tagging has shown: that the Hamilton Inlet Bank cod stock, after spending the Winter in deep water offshore, rise near the surface and move shoreward in late June and early July and form the basis of the highly seasona .1 fishery ·of Coastal II Labrador and Northeastern Newfoundland. So, Mr.

Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland have told the Government of Canada that scientific experiments have shown by tagging that the fish on the Hamilton Inlet Bank that were tagged during the spawning season were the same fish that moved to the Coast of Labrador and the Northeast Coast of Newfoundiand and therefore, when these fish are caught in large quantities of course they must and do adversely affect the inshore fishery. " He continues, foreign fleet activity therefore affects the inshore fisheries by reducing both quantities and sizes of cod available.

I believe that the closure of the Hamilton Inlet Bank to all fishing operations during the identified spawning period will help reverie downward trends in the inshore cod landings. 11 Although the stock has been exposed ·to fishing operations for many years, the Hamilton Inlet Bank fishery has intensified since 1959 when European trawlers commenced a Winter,Spring offshore fishery in the area.

"Canadian effort, largely Newfoundland, have always been concentrated over inshore Labrador grounds, declined from 1938 to 1958 period, mainly because of depressed market conditions for salt cod and has remained relatively stable since. However, boyant market conditions saw cod price increases and t.ecl111ological developments within the catching sector are contributing to increased Newfoundland interest in the Labrador inshore fishery. 11 155"/

Marc.h lQ, . 1975 Tape 493 IB-1 Indicative of the H~milton Inlet Banks contribution to overall ICNAF landings, is the fact that intense foreign fishing activity has resulted in c.od landings from Labrador waters increasing) Mr. Speaker, from four per cent of total ICNAF landings over the 1955 -1958 period, to fifteen per cent from 1959 to lCJfil and eighteen per cent over 1961 to 1964. In contrast the Newfoundland inshore fish landings in the same area declined from 100 per c.ent .of the total catch in 1950 to thirty­ two per cent from 1955 to 1958 and nine per cent from 1961 to 1964.

So, these statistics c.learly indicate, Mr. Speaker, what a drastic effec.t this is having upon the inshore fish on the North­ east Coast and Labradot. Largely because of high fishing c.osts related to suc.h factors ~s adverse weather and ic.e conditions, Canadian offshore fishing effort in Northern Waters will not inc.rease by any signific.ant degree in the near future. Consequently, Canada's share of alloted quotas will continue to be taken by the inshore and middle d!stanc.e catc.hing sec.tors whic.h are dependent on the shoreward movement on the Hamilton Banks.

Whic.h means, in other words, that the alloc.ation of fish by ICNAF from the Hamilton Banks will not be c.aught by draggers that we send to the hanks but will be caught when these fish migrate shoreward. Total reduc.tion of offsh~re fishing effort during the spawning period would result in larger numbers of c.od moving shoreward during the Summer months. At other times of the year the stoc.k is widely dispersed and is not as susc.eptible to concentrated fishing ac.tivity.

As a result of c.losure, for example, the inshore fishery of Newfoundland and Labrador would not be characterized by the fluc.tuations in landing to the same degree as is now the case. The Province of Newfoundland's position, advocating closure of the Hamilton Inlet Banks during the cod spawning season is h~~ed on social rather than biological factors. I realize that biologically there is no sound justificat-ion for closure of the banks, since the overall stoc.k per se may not have been exposed to overfishing. Social factors however give rise to a strong case for the position set forth. That, 1558

March 19, 1975 Tape 493 Mr. Speaker, I say we cannot overemp_hasize because on the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador you have historically the life style of the people built up around the inshore fishery. The effect · that that will have upon not alone the people directly involved but on their families, on their way of life, and whether they will or will not stay in these communities, can be profound.

So, it is a very, very important social problem because if the people living along the Northeast Coast cannot find a good return and cannot earn a good living from the inshore fishery, they will of course be obliged to seek other employment or in some cases leave these communities and this could of . I course 1 raise a large number of problems as we know happened in other parts of the island. 11 The latest statistics show that approximately sixty per cent of all inshore Newfoundland fishermen reside along the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador.

In view of the fact that the fishermen tend to be the least mobile and furthermore, because of extremely limited economic opportunities within the region, w.e urg~ that your government carefully examine all aspects of the Hamilton Inlet Banks fishery. "It is our contention that Ottawa should have a strong position placed on the agenda of the upcoming June, 1974 ICNAF meeting advocating the closure of the Hamilton . Inlet Banks during the identified cod spawning period, on these grpunds, as a necessary IB-2 first step to ensure protection of an important sector of the ~ewfoundland fishing industry." Mr.

Speaker, we know what the results of the ICNAF meeting in 1974 were, and we have the transcript of what took place at that meeting. You heard the previous speakers say what a timid or a lame suggestion was made by the Canadian delegation for the closure of the banks during this period. The logical second step for both governments would be to place a very high priority on the redevelopment of the overall capabilities of inshore, near offshore sector, to such a degree as to ensure that not only the cod but also other resources are harvested in an efficient and 1559

March 19, 1975 Tape 493 IB-3 economic manner. Surely there must be a wealth of technical expertise available either in Canada or elsewhere to ensure that this objective can be achieved in a relatively short period. We look forward to any further discussions which may take place in this matter. ?1r. Speaker, along with this is a chart showing the catch over the years and how significant the catch is during the months of January, February and March. When one looks at the ~raph, Mr.

Speaker, it is really startling to see that in February, March and April the quantity of fish caught as compared with the rest of the year, it is hardly believable. So, Mr. Speaker, we ask ourselves as do, I suppose, everybody connected with the fishery of Newfoundland just what all this talk and debate can and will acc;:omplish.

As I said earlier in my introductory remarks we can understand the- frustrations of everyone connected with the fishery when they hear u.s in this Rouse get up and talk about extending or trying to control the margin and to close the Hamilton Inlet Banks to fishing during February, March and April because, Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, this honourable House just has not jurisdiction and no control •.

Any laws that we pass and make with resrect to that, of course are ultra vires because we do not have the authority to pass it; So, what ,.,e are debating here is a matter really over which we ourselves have no control and we are completely at the mercy of whatever action t:he Government of Canada sees fit to take. So far we have the same problem with the offshore gas and oil. You can understand, Mr.

Speaker, how on the Mainland of Canada if there is a problem confronting the farmers or the dairymen, they will all get their tractors and they will drive to Ottawa and they will do this and they will do that and demonstrate and drive home to the members of the Parliament of ' Canada just how serious their problem is and how it needs -immediate action. I suppose the best thing the Covernment of Newfoundland could do if we could not drive to Ottawa,the fishermen, would be to hire 1560

March 19, 1975 Tape 493 IB-4 three or four jets and send up 1,000 or more inshore fishermen and let them park on the steps of the Parliament Building and drive home to the people who are really concerned and who can do something about this problem how serious it is to them. If every fisherman in Newfoundland ca~e in he,~ today, and they all said exactly what the previous speakers have said and what I am saying, it would not matter one iota because the Province of Newfoundland just does not have this control. Here we are with our greatest resource, and the same thing applies, Mr. Speaker, to our gas and oil.

We have the Government of Canada issuing permits. They do not recognize Newfoundland rights, and that is our next greatest asset. If a certain segment of the population have a big problem and they want to drive it home to the legislature, they demonstrate.

I suppose the best· insulation that the Parliament of Canada has against the feelings in Newfoundland is a body of water that surrounds us, because if the fishermen of Newfoundland could, if they could, 10,000 strong, if all the fishermen on the North­ east Coast and the Coast of Labrador could only get in on a truck or a tractor or a trailer and go and park on the steps of Parliament Building, and the CBC and all· the news media could see really what this means, their life's blood, ~r. Speaker 1 .if 10,000 of them could park and show the people of Canada how serious this problem is, they• may get action.

But, as I said before, what do we have. We have a Parliament of Canada which - consists of 266 seats and Newfoundland has seven. So, the only rights of a minority, I suppose, in a -democracy is the conscience of the majority. If, as apparently what is happening to Newfoundland, our greatest resource, our fishery and now our offshore -gas and oil, are out of our control, what do they do? I say, Mr. Speaker, that perhaps the best investment the Government of Newfoundland could do would be to provide sufficient transportation for 1,000, 2,000 or 3,000 fishermen, and everybody, Mr.

Speaker, in Newfoundland, the rich, the poor, the uneducated, the young, the old, everyone 1561

March 19, 1975. Tape 494 RH - 1 must realize how important control of our gas and oil is to us. We hear the public releases of the minister - the four premiers of the Atlantic Provinces meet the Prime Minister of .. Canada ' and they discuss and debate,and then the three Maritime Premiers meet and then the Premier of Newfoundland will meet the Prime Minister of Canada and here we are today without any recognition by the Government of Canada of the rights of Newfoundland · to the Continental Shelf. What does it mean? It means., Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland's life blood. That is what it means.

Here is the great, rich, Dominion of Canada saying to Newfoundland, no we do not recognize the only rights that you should have. My own view is, _·Mr. Speaker, I think the time has come, if I were to make that decision, we have discussed it, we have debated it, we have talked about it, we have done everything and still no answer, is to refer it to the Supreme Court of Canada . and take our decision and get our decision because, obviously, it certainly appears to me that there is no great desire to recognize Newfoundland as having more rights than any of the other Maritime Provinces. That is all, Mr.

Speaker, that is all Newfoundland wants and needs in as far . as the fishery was concerned, proper, effective control of that great resource and as far as the offshore gas and oil is concerned, of ' course, to recognize the rights that the Province had as a Dominion when it entered Confederation with Canada. We are told that constitutionally this Province had the same status legally in 1949 as the Government of Canada, in that we were a Dominion in the eyes of the law. As you know yo~rself, Mr.

Speaker, being one of the learned brethern, that certain rights attached to certain status - I am sorry, I thought the 1562

March 19, 1975. Tape 494 other gentleman was in the Chair. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. RH - 2 MR. ALYWARD : I say this, Mr. Speaker, we hear recently, only a day or so ago, about the decision in the United States Supreme Court respecting the rights of certain states up there to their offshore rights and how the Supreme Court decided in favour of the state. I think I was listening on CBC to an interview by CBC with the Premier of Nova Scotia 1and the Premier of Nova Scotia said, Mr.

Speaker, as so many people have said before, that Newfoundland's claim seems so much more superior to any other claim that it would be in the best interest of the other three Provinces to await to see what happens to negotiations between Newfoundland and Ottawa. I say, Mr. Speaker, if our case is as it appears to be, much better than the case of any of these other Provinces, considering what it means to the people of Newfoundland we should be very, very reluctant to bargain any of these rights, but on the contrary, we should, as quickly as possible, submit the matter to the Supreme Court of Canada for a decision.

I realize, Mr. Speaker, that I probably strayed somewhat from the resolution before us, but it is a matter, I suppose, like the other, it is something over which Ottawa has control. Now, the mover of this resolution, Mr.

Speaker, and all the gentlemen who spoke previously in the debat.e were quite concemed about the various problems that alfect the inshore fishery in particular and they realize, of course, that as far as the trawlermen are concemed, the news we heard today is certainly welcomed by everyone in Newfoundland and. that we only hope, of course, that the agreement which appears to have been initialled in Ottawa will be ratified by the members, and that in the not too distant future, the trawlermen will be back at sea and the plant workers back on their jobs because 1563

March 19, 1975. Tape 494 RH - 3 the strike has gone on for many months and undoubtedly hard­ ships have resulted to the people involved in the fishery. But, Mr. Speaker, again the inshore fishery - I am very, very pleased to see t hat the House appointed this select committee recently to look into the matter and I was very, very pleased to accept the position as Chairman of that committee.

I realize that the time that we have to study the problems is very, very short, but I sincerely trust that a large number of fishermen and people connected with the inshore fishery will see fit to make submissions to the committee and that the committee will be in a position by April 30 to make some report to this House. The committee have met once and will be meeting again tomorrow at three o'clock in the afternoon a·t the same place. The meeting tomorrow, Mr.

Speaker, the officials from the Department of Fisheries will provide the members of the committee with sqme ·detailed information as to the significance of the inshore fishery, that is information as to the number of people involved, what it means to the economy of Newfound­ land, the problems as seen from a departmental point of view and also, of course, a lot of other background information which will be of a help to the committee in understanding, of course, the basic p_roblems confro 'nting the industry and then to get first hand from the fishermen and the processors and the unions and the committees of fishermen and everyone else connected with it, their own views.

MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ALYWARD: Pardon? MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ALYWARD: No, no, . we have decided, in view of the restraints placed on us at the time, that we will confine our efforts to the Island of Newfoundland and Labrador. But I am glad, Mr. 1564

March 19, 1975. Tape 494 rui - 4 Speaker, that the committee has decided to travel throughout the Island of Newfoundland and the Coast of Labrador.. I only wish that we had more time because it is a major task and none of us has any preconceived ideas nor do we feel that we are going to answer all the problems confronting the inshore fishery. But this select committee should be a vehicle which will provide the fishermen themselves and the fish processors and the unions and others connected with the fishery with an opportunity of making their views known to the members of this committee.

I would like the press and the public to realize, Mr. Speaker, that this is not a committee of the government. It is not the government members, the P.C.s or the Liberals~ This is a committee of the House of Assembly and as such the committee consists of members from the government side, members from the Opposition and in this case, the honourable Member for the New Labrador Party. I am very, very glad personally that he is a member of the committee. I hope that the press reports we hear are unfounded, at least until the committee has reports.

But, he has attended one of our meetings and has suggested to us where we should meet in Labrador and we followed his recommendation. I sincerely trust that he will be with us for the duration of our meetings and that he will have a considerable input because he comes from the area and I know he can provide us with some excellent information. I do hope, Mr. Speaker, that as many fishermen throughout Newfoundland-will - CAPTAIN WINSOR: Will the honourable member permit a question? MR. ALYWARD: Yes. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Is this meeting tomorrow afternoon open to the press? MR. AL YWABD : No, no. 1565

March 19, 1975. Tape 494 RH - 5 CAPTAIU WINSOR: It is a private meeting. MR. ALYWARD: No. No, Mr. Speaker, if I may. The purpose of the meeting tomorrow is as I said earlier, to provide the members of the counnittee with a lot of resource material and fundamental information which I felt they should have in their possession before we commence public hearings. It is not a submission by the Department of Fisheries.

It is not a position by the Department of Fisheries, but I have asked the Provincial Departme~t of Fisheries and the Federal Department of Fisheries and, indeed, I have also contacted the Salt Fish Corporations and asked them to provide the committee with some general information which would be of a help to us when we opened our public hearings. This will be statistical data, for example, indicating the number of fishermen tmployed, what terms of dollars are involved and what areas of Newfoundland where the big problems are as they see it.

Of course, as I see it, the Department of Fisheries, both Provincial and Federal and the Salt Fish Corporation will, if they see fit, have the opportunity to make a public submission to the committee like any other company, individual or anybody else connected with the inshore fishery. What this meeting was - the purpose of this meeting, again, was to just give us sort of a lot of information that I -felt would be very, very helpful to us and this is being provided and compiled and I do not know if the honourable member has yet received some of that data.

If not, if he has not received it yet he will receive it in the morning . 1566

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 495 NM - l Mr. Speaker, this committee has decided to travel throughout Newfoundland and give the fishenaen a chance to come in and make their views known to us. We are prepared to listen and we will act as a vehicle to bring this report, not to the government, Mr. Speaker, but to the House of Assembly.

We do not want the people of Newfoundland or the fishermen of Newfoundland or the unions or anyone else, this is a government committee or that this is Liberal or PC, this is a committee of the House of Assembly reporting to 'the House of Assembly and of course the decision will be then for the House to accept or reject or do what they like with the report that we make. So, I do not like to hear that, as has been suggested in some quarters what the committee has se't out to do.

We have our task defined by our terms of reference which was given to us by the House of Assembly and that was to obtain from the fishermen, from the processors, from anyone connected with the inshore fishery, their views with respect to the present problems conf~onting the fishery. Then of course to make our recommendations knowu. MR. SI!tlONS: What is the honourable member going on with now? MR. AYLWARD: I am answering a question asked by the honourable Leader , of the gentleman's party, Mr. Speaker. I felt that he certainly would permit me to answer ·the question !aised by him. MR.

WOODWARD: It must be a long winded one. MR. AYLWARD: Now, Mr. Speaker, any Yesolutions that would improve the lot of the inshore fishermen ori the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland, in Labrador, in Placentia Bay, anywhere, should receive and would 1I feel certain, the complete endorsation of every member of this honourable House, when one realizes the problems that are confronting these individuals, For example, Mr. Speaker, I would like to just tell you, only about last week I received a phone call from a £isherman in Little Harbour 1561

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 495 NM - 2 East who had said he set something like 100 gill nets a week or so before and about the first time in forty years, Placentia Bay without hardly any notice, filled with local ice and he lost every net he had. This man had a longliner valued at in excess of $40,000. He had his son with him, another man and his son; so here were four men with practically their only means of obtaining a livelihood completely wiped out.

I brought,of course>the matter immediately to the attention of the honourable Minister of Fisheries. only to learn that there was no prograDDne covering fishermen who lost a year in Placentia Bay because . of ice. So you can imagine the frustration and the discontent of a fisherman in Placentia Bay with a big boat worth $50,000 or $60,000, probably in debt up •to his ears and every cent he has got in the water and it all gone and he comes to the government and they say, no, there is no help for you but there is a special prograDDne for th_e fishermen on the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland. 'iR..

WOODWARD: rhat is the Tory Government. Bad government, Sir. MR. AYJ,WARD: So, Mr. Speaker, they have serious problems and many problems facing the inshore fishery and I only hope that the fishermen in Newfoundland will find that this committee which the House appointed, is a good vehicle in which they will make their views known1 and again we will make ours known to this honourable House.

I think myself that the amount of oorrespondence that I have received since this committee has been app~inted, if it is any indication of how the fishermen are themselves concerned and anxious to meet the committee, I certainly feel that we will have a very, very interesting - Our hearings will be very, very interesting and informative and I feel certain that we will have some valuable information to pass on to the members of the House. I only hope, Mr.

Speaker, on the inshore fishery, that the Department of Regio .nal and Economic Development will see fit to fulfill the promi .se which was made with respect to the construction 1568

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 495_ NM - 3 of service centres for fishermen in Placentia Bay, I see here in the galleries today a gentleman from Red Island who fished all his life and if he could only tell us, Mr. Speaker, himself what these problems these fishermen have, I only hope that he will see fit to come to our committee and make his representations to us. But that great bay and that great resource, Mr.

Speaker, that needs so much protection, as I said before, any resolution that any honourable member brings in here that will improve the lot of the inshore fishermen should receive our unanimous support but again,as I said before, I can understand fully the frustrations of the fishermen in Newfoundland when they hear us talk and talk and talk and pass resolutions because we cannot back it up and the only people who can back it up 1and this . applies to the resolution which we are presently debating 1 and that is the Government of Canda and I sincerely trust, Mr.

Speaker, that when the Government of Canada receives this resolution that they will take some strong action to see to it that at the next ICNAF meeting the Canadian delegation will move with, after considerable lobbying, with the support of other nations, the closure of the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season.And I sincerely trust that this will happen at the next ICNAF meeting and I am very, very proud and pleased to support this resolution and I am also, I think the Minister of Fisheries when he spoke, indicated how pleased he was because he was going to take the honourable gentleman who introduced the resolution to Oslo or wherever the next meeting is, So with such rewards for bringing in - AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. AYLWARD: Well I think he had his day when he was Minister of Fisheries but the honourable gentleman frcm Fogo should not really, Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman from Fogo should not really deny the honourable gentleman from Bonavista South a trip to wherever he is going. 156~

March 19, 1975 Tape No. 495 NM - 4 MR, SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! Order, please! I wonder if the honourable member p•roposes to propose an amendment to this motion. MR. AYLWARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do, MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): · The honourable member's time is rapidly expiring. MR. AYLWARD: Rapidly expiring. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the only thing I was going to say and I am sure the honourable member for Fogo realizes that, having been a Minister of Fisheries himself, and travelled extensively, that one trip for the poor honourable Member for Bonavista South .would be small reward for having brought such an important matter .to our attention. CAPT. WINSOR: I would like to go as a companion. MR. AYLWARD: . You would like to travel as a companion. I think he has other ideas as far as companions go, Mr. Speaker. I understand - he is a political animal and he would like a political companion.

So the only way that could be arranged, he would have to speak with him about it. So, Mr. Speaker, I would . like to move, seconded by the honourable Member for Burin, that this resolution be amended to read as follows, that the Legislature urge that the federal government make a strong case at the upcoming ICNAF meetings, that a ban be placed on fishing on the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season, that is with the concurrence - MR. HICKMAN: Is that in the - MR. AYLWARD: No, no, what this means is that the Attorney General, if I may, Mr.

Speaker, when the honourable Member for Bonavista South introduced the resolution he urged that the matter be brought to the attention of the Law of the Sea Conference, but when the Minister of Fisheries spoke in the debate he said that this matter was really a matter to be dealt with by ICNAF, not the Law of the Sea and the honourable gentleman from Bonavista South asked me if I would move the amendment. 1570

March 19, 1975 Tap~ No. 495 NM - 5 MR. RICKMAN: Now you are going to sp~k on it,~ MR. AYLWARD: Now, I have ju.at realized, Mr~ ·speaker, that I c,.u speak to this amendment - MR.. RICKMAN: Unlimited time. MR. AYLWARD) Unlimited time, but I know .how · auious every~e is to speak on the inshore fishery and it would be - The learned gentleman from Hermitage was about to rise I am sure. MR. WOODWARD: D.o you have a copy of ~he mnendm~i:it, of the - MR. AYLWARD:· Yes, I will provide you with pl4:nty of copies, :Mr. ~peaker. MR. WOODWARD: Yes~ well why do we not see th~?· MR.· AtLWARD: Yes, by all - MR.

SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! MR, AYLWARD: I will provide with a. copy _ - t do not intend to enforce my right to speak for forty-five IIWllltes to the ameiidment, Mr. Speaker, 1571 ..

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 496 Page 1 - mw MR. SPMKER (Mr. Stagg): Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Is the House ready for the question on the amendment? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Yes. MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, that the Legislature urges the federal government to make a strong case at the upcoming ICNAF meeting, Mr. Speaker, that the word, ICNAF, be substituted for the Law of the Sea Conference. MR. F. ROWE: May I ask a question, Mr. Speaker?

We are voting on the amendment only, is that correct, and we will have an opportunity to speak on the resolution? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): That is correct. Anyone who wishes to may then speak on the amendment. MR. F. ROWE: Yes, well then will we - MR. AYLWARD: For the benefit of the Attorney Genewil who is seconding the motio~, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries, as I said, when he spoke _in the debate~ said that that was the proper form to deal with the matter, ~nd the Hon. Member for Bonavista South asked me, when I spoke, to move that amenlll!lent. _!m.. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, as the seconder to this amendment for which I have had due notice, this amendment I am sure will commend itself to all honourable members for two reasons: (1) that this House has already unanimously passed an all•embracing resolution, which has been transmitted by Your Honour and also delivered in person, as I understand, by the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy to the Minister of External Affairs and the other Canadian delegates to the Law of the Sea Conference.

The Law of the Sea Conference, as is mentioned in L;1e main resolution, is going to, in my opinion, regretfully be involved in long and protracted negotiations and arguments. The editorial comment in North America on the likelihood of the success of the taw of the Sea Conference is 1 to say the least,rather pessimistic. 1572

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 496 Page 2 - mw It appears as if Canada will find herself at odds with the Government of the United States and Russia, who do not appear to be inclined to see the smaller nations; ~maller in population at least, smaller :1.n military hardware, assume abso:).ute jurisdiction over our Continen~al Shelf, If that is so, and even if it is not, and this House has made it very clear that we will be awfully disappointed if this occurs, It would be very prudent to the House, in my opinion, to unanimously approve the amended resolution that is now up for debate, because ICNAF, which is in some respects a toothless wonder, ICNAF still continues to meet periodically and by way of negotiations try and convince member nations of the wisdom of having conservation of our fishery stocks in the North Atlantic.

I do not believe that the Government of Canada has ever exercised the kind of responsible surveillance that they. have the right to exercise under existing ICNAF agreements. I would like to see Canada show a bit more muscle at this time, because obviously, if she is not prepared to enforce existing rights under ICNAF, she may have a very difficult time in convincing the other members that there should be an extension to the surveillance rights and control over the Hamilton Banks. Be that as it may, Mr.

Speaker, all honourable gentlemen in this House have indicated very clearly, and the facts speak for themselves, that the drastic and tragic reduction in fish landings arising out of the inshore fishery along the Labrador Coast, can only be the result of one thing,and that is overfishing on the Hamilton Banks. MR. 'WOODWARD MR. HICKMAN: Newfoundlanders caught them all. If the Newfoundlanders caught them, well there might be ·some justification for it, but it is not the Newfoundlanders, it is the Norwegians, I submit, and the Russians, and the other nations that have these large factory ships.

We have always had a tradition, and I am sure that the honourable gentleman from Labrador is aware of this, that he should not look upon those of us who 1573

March 19 • 1975 Tape no. 496 Page 3 - mw come from the south coast of Newfoundland and fish off Labrador as being intruders or invaders. We have been fishing the Labrador fishery for a century or more. It was always a great tradition along the south coast that when the Labrador fishermen were coming home in late August and early September, our boys were going North to sort of finish off the Bank fishery for the year, and indeed many of them went as far north as Greenland.

I can recall on many, many occasions standing on the wharf in Grand Bank watching schooners like "The Robert and Max" and "The Pauline Winters" and "The Nina Corkmn" and "The Irene Corkum" and "The Isabeil Corkum" and dozens of others. I am sure that the honourable gentleman from Fogo will remember their _names, in fact, "The Old Winifred Lee" that the captain himself sailed in for many years at one time was a Bank fishing vessel out of Grand Bank. As I recall, she was owned by the Buffets. She was a beautiful ship and her captain was Captain George Lee, and the schooner was called after hie daugheer.

I can recall them coming back from Greenaland the first week in December, and that was not very pleasant fish_ing; but they always came back with big fish, Greenland fish was big fish, heavy salted, and then it was sold to the Greek market. It is a tragic thing that, you know, in the late 193O's the fish merchants along the south coast had developed a good market in salt bulk fish and we never ~gain regained that market at the end of the war.

If I can digress for a minute, and I have often wanted to do it,to publicly pay tribute to some very, very courageous men al~ng our coast who, after the outbreak of World War II, there were three banking schooners converted into freighters, they had no power, no engines, just sailing schooners, "The Robert and Max", "The L"mbia" and "The Helen Forsey." .They were loaded - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: No, no, all two masters. They were all bankers and in the spring they had this salt bulk fish that they could find no way, because of the exigencies of war, to deliver this cargo to Greece. So, 1574

March 19, 1975 Tape no. 496 Page 4 they loaded up the three sailing schooners, Captain John Ralph was on one, Captain Hughie Grandy was on "The Helen Forsey", Captain Harry Thompson, about whom a very delightful book has been recently ~ublished, and I have forgottL-c the o.thP-r gentleman's name, he was subsequently killed in the merchant navy. They sailed over to Greece and "The Lambia" was lost in the Straits of Gibraltar. The other two made Greece. They were in Greece when war broke out, with Italy, war was already on with Germany - MR. SIMMONS: It is all very irrelevant. MR.

HICKMAN: They were given - well the honourable gentleman is not familiar with the south coast so he would not appreciate these stories • They were given a choice of sailing over to Alexandria and tying up for the duration which would have meant the end of these wooden schooners,or alternatively coming back through the Mediterranean without any protection at all because they were too slow for conv~y duty. And they came back down through the Mediterranean. I have heard both skippers tell the story.

They came through the Straits of Gibraltar at night, a blackout.· The first land - and one of these gentlemen would have at the most grade one education, one of these skippers - the first land he saw, when the fog lifted was St • Pierre, and he knew that he was two miles from St. Pierre. I suggest to you that that is not bad navigation when the only thing you had at that time was a compass and a log. With that market, which was traditionally fish caught on the Labrador and in Greenland was lost to this province during the war and never regained after. It was a pity.

The point I am making is that there has been a tradition, and I say this in response to the coDD11ent of the Hon. Member for.Labrador North,that there has been a tradition of deep sea fishermen from the South Coast fishing in the Fall of the year off the coast of Labrador and any fish that they are now catching on the Hamilton Banks or have landed there in the past ~ oes not constitute exerting some new fishing grounds or rights over fishing grounds. I do not think 1575

March 19, 1975 Tape 497 (Afternoon) PK - 1 that the Newfoundland fis"ltennen-, or the Eastern Canadian fishermen indeed can be blamed in any way for the depletion of the stocks on the Hamilton Banks. I think it is abundantly clear that the major depletion has been caused by friendly and unfriendly n~tions fishing that part of the North Atlantic. ICNAF seems to hav~ a rather unusual career• Some years it app·ears to be an association· with e great deal of clout.

It has been sort of put in the shade by the Law of the Sea Conference, and nations seem to be looking, and fishermen are looking toward the Law of the Sea Conference to solve all of our problems insofar as conservation is concerned. But at the same time, ICNAF still continues .to operate. It still has a place in the scheme of things until the, not only the Law of the Sea - we should not overlook the fact that agreement at the Law of the Sea Conference amongst r.ations does not necessarily mean, Mr.

Speaker, that we then are in the position to enforce whatever rights are given to us because these treaties then have to be signed following ratification by1 say 1 the Parliament of Canada, the Congress of the United States, and the elected governing bodies of the various signatories to any agreements which may be worked out at the Law of the Sea Conference. All this will take considerable time. And·it ,is very prudent if we at this time, our delegations, and there will be delegations from Newfoundland, there always are, Mr. Etchegary,in particular, has carried the Canadian cause very effectively.

Indeed he has been one of the most articulate spokesman in Eastern Canada for conservation measures off .our shores. A lot of his warning;went unheeded. He was prepared to tell the stories of frustration that he has met over the years in dealing with officials at the senior level in our senior government who simply regarded him as just another Eastern Canadian who is trying to find some excuse to come to Ottawa to complain, it would be a pretty harrowing experience, and a harrowing tale. Because thev were not listening to us.

They would trot out the reports of the marine biologists saying that the sustainable yield from the Hamilton Banks indicates to us that there is not over fishing. And if the fish is .. ~--!;;J fl)

March 19, 1975 Tape 497 (Afternoon) PK - 2 not on the Hamilton Banks it must be for some other reason. And they were not prepared to take to ICNAF a strong position of conservation for these areas, certainly not as strong as they should. Now they are beginning to realize ten years too late that Gus Etchegary ~nd others who represent this industry have some knowledge of the matters they brought before them.

This to me is one of the messages that we have not been able to get through since we became the tenth province of Canada, that we are more knowledgeable, we should be more _knowledgeable, wear~ more knowledgeable of the East Coast fisheries than any other group of Canadians. But whenever we go to Ottawa 1when there used to be a Department of Fisheries 1 we find ourselves stampeded by the advice and positions of the technocrats. They have all the answers . And they just will not learn. They went back to the days of the Port-aux-Basques ua·rbour.

One would have thought that they would have learned a lesson then but they have not. And it is only by this kind of continuous public political piessure, and I use political in the broad sense of the word, that we can get through to the Government of ·canada who has exclusive jurisdiction in these matter~ that we believe that some very definitive action must be taken in a very strong fearless position by our federal people at not only the Law of the Sea but at ICNAF.

And if I could only mention it once again, there is, in my opinion, an alarming reluctance on the part of the federal government in the interest of continuing to be 1 and regarded as part of the friendly nations club, to take the kind of protective ac·tion that is needed off our shores. Far be it for me to say that our Navy should give up the Bermudaian cruise in the Winter to protect our. fishermen. They might not like it.

But I do suggest that they 1fotild be performing "° a much needed service to Newfoundlanders and Canadians,and at the same time getting the same kind of training albeit a bit more rigorous than they get when they sail in the sun. When I was in Ottawa before the External Affairs Committee it was suggested that we have the fisheries patrol boats, and they are competent to protect our fishery. Well,these boats are very small as 157"/

l1arch 19, 197 5 Tape 497 (Afternoon) PK - 3 you know and they have a wage and working agreement that allows them to work, I think, from eight in the morning until five in the afternoon. They do not work Sundays and Saturdays. They have totally overlooked the fact that the foreign -fleets do operate at night. They have never been able to protect that ~ittle bank off Burnette Island which is withiI). spitting distance of Harbour Breton and Grand Bank. They have never been able to protect Hermitage Bay.

But yet if you ask the Department of Defence or the Department of the Environment as to what steps they are taking to protect Newfoundland fishermen' the answer is, we have eight, nine, ten, twenty,or whatever it is, fisheries patrol boats. And really, Mr. Speaker, they could never be placed in the class of boats capable of carrying out protect surveillance. There has been an indication, there was a press conference, there was a great announcement that some of the Navy boats would be used to do some surveillance off our shores. I have not seen St.

John's Harbour blocked with corvettes,or whatever they use now,refueling to go out on the Grand Banks to enforce the ICNAF regulations. And I suggest that any effort so far has been nothing more than tokenism. nr. Speaker, I have no hesitancy in voting for this amendment. I am sure that the honou -rable members across the House, and indeed all honourable members will support the amendment.

We did,r think, a very good th~ng two weeks ago when we unanimously passed a similar resolution, a more embracing one,for the Law of the Sea Conference de.legations from Canada, and this is really some extra protection to take care of the intervening period whilst negotiations are still going at the Law of the Sea Conference in the hope that when our representatives at ICNAF1 both from the government sector and the private sector, attend their next meeting that they will be able to indicate to their fellow delegates that the Legislature of Newfoundland is prepared to take a fairly courageous stand on this, that we are c~ncerned about the aimost virtual disappearance of the stocks and that we would like action, and like it now.

MR. SPEAKER: All those in favour of the amendment - aye. The Hon. Member for St. John's East. 1578

March 19, 1975 Tape 497 (Afternoon) PR - 4 MR. W. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, there are a few words I would like to say W"ith respect to the amendment to this motion. I had not intended to speak on it but because of the nature of the amendment there are maybe one or ·t'W'o comments that perhaps might be in order to make.

What has really 1 I suppose, driven me to my feet, if I need to be driven to my feet, is the nature of the amendment proposed by the honourable Member for Placentia East, that this matter no.w instead of going to the legislature urge the federal gove.rnment to make a strong case at the ~comini La'W' of cb.e Sea Conference to refer it to them to make a strong case at the ICNAP Conference . 1579

March 19, 1975. Tape 498 RH - 1 Now, _I think it is worthwhile to make the point even though there seems to be an obsession in this Province with not relating or referring to what went on in the past, not even from the point of view of the possibility of learning what not to do in the future. Regardless of this particular attitude the people do not wish to hear reference to it. To refer back to some sessions ago, I think it was in 1970 or 1971 when I had an occasion in Opposition to bring forth a resolution before this House.

At that time, the present Prime Minister was then, I think, in the early stages or he is certainly in his early stages as Prime Minister, his early years as Prime Minister, and at the particular time he was making a visit to Russia, his first state visit to Russia as Prime Minister and I brought before the House a private members' resolution at the time deploring, I think the words - I am paraphrasing now1 but I remember clearly what the intent of it .was - deploring the situation with respect to our fisheries in the North Atlantic urging that the House of Assembly, the legislature go on record as .voicing its concern requesting that the Prime Minister take up as a matter of top priority on his agenda with the Soviet Premier the plight of the fisheries in the North Atlantic, particularly as it effected the place here, Newfoundland, and that the resolution be communicated -to Ottawa.

In addition, there were other arms to the resolution at the ICNAF Conference which was to have come eventually, you know, be convened here or we convene a conference here in Newfoundland for the purpose of bringing the plight of the fishery to the attention of the world. Now, I remember how that was treated at the time and so I know we are not supposed to talk about what went on in the past because people do not like to hear about it but I think it is worthwhile noting that the way it was greeted by the government 1580

March 19, 1975. Tape 498 RH - 2 _of the day was, they were not prepared at the time to stand up as Newfoundlanders,as one,and to communicate this to Ottawa and I think it would have been a real . given the fishery in this Province 1a real impetus. It certainly would have brought dramatically to the attention of the, maybe not the world, but certainly the Canadian nation~which was necessary, the plight of the fishery and its necessity to us and the dependance in Newfoundland on it. I thought it was a good move. They caucused, the previous administration.

I think it is probably the first caucus they had in their sojourn because they did not have too many of them.

They came in and the Premier of the day came in in the most condescending manner and some of the gentlemen there opposite sat behind him with smirks on his face and when he said it and he said the honourable member was one day too late because of the fact that he had been in contact with the Government in Ottawa,he had been in touch with the honourable Mitchell Sharp who was then Minister of External Affairs and had, indeed, got the concurrence of the Federal Government that it was going to be discussed at a meeting, an ICNAF Conference that was then to be held in Halifax.

Consequently, although I had all sorts of good intentions 1 in the usual condescending manner that these motions were greeted with, that I was a week too late and it would be brought up at the ICNAF Conference. Then as the present Leader of the Opposition likes to say from time to time, so be it. That was the result. I am not bringing this up really from the point of view of, you know, the previous administration because the heck with the previous administration. I agree with it but I do point out that it was a pity at the time that a resolution like that w~ not brought forward because I tell you what happened.

There were teleph911e calls that went through from St. John's to Ottawa at the time. The next day the honourable Mitchell Sharp got up in the House of Commons and 111ade an appropriate comment which was obviously motivated as a 1581

March 19, 1975. Tape 498 R}] - 3 result of this resolution and the mat.ter was dropped. At the same time, the Federal Government, the Federal power was considering a similar dilemma that occurred on the West Coast of Canada at the time with respect to the salmon fishery stocks. I believe it was. I may not be defining the correct type of fishery . Maybe it was another type of fishery , but it was certainly one - Al{ HONOURABLE MEMB.ER: Herring . HR. MARSUA.LL: Herring, no, it was not a herring stock. This was on the West Coast, the Pacific Coast. Well, it does not make any difference. It was a =tte~ of grave concern to the Western Canadians, to the people on the West Coast 1582

March 19, 1975 Tape 499 and lo and behold, when the Prime Minister did go to Russia he took up the matter of the Pacific Coast stocks, the depletion there and their particular problem. I believe, if memory serves me correctly, he came to some resolution with respect to it, Now, the reason why I point this out is not because of IB-1 our previous administration but I am pointing this out to cast a certain amount of, while the resolution is good and the amendment is good, scepticism as to the real sincerity of the federal government in receiving a resolution of this nature.

I draw to Your Honour's attention the fact that two or three years ago, a matter which was a matter of life and death and was even more grimly a matter of life and death to this province, was not of sufficient importance for the federal government to take up in the matter of its international discussions. But the matter of the Pacific Coast was very much so.

I think that this underlines one of the major basic problems that we have in this province, is our relationship with Ottawa, the mathematical fact that we have, you know, only these seven seats so that we are not listened to to the same degree as a province like British Columbia which not only has, what is it, eighteen or twenty­ two seats, however many it is, but contributes a great deal to th~ federal coffers in monetary payments. So, they are much more sensitive to the needs of the Pacific Coast ·.

One of the areas in which - this is not just localized to the Trudeau Administration, this is localized - this problem has occurred in Newfoundland particularly with respec~ to the fisheries every since Confederation with all governments that have been in Ottawa at the time.

One of the best reports that I have ever seen since I have been connected with the government - that is here or in Opposition, a member of the House of Assembly and had occasion to read reports - is the story report on the licensing of our, or the proposal by the federal government to license our fisheries here in this province, to license inshore fishermen. The honourable the Minister of Fisheries has already tabled, 1583

March 19, 1975 Tape 499 IB-2 I think, five copies in the House about two weeks ago. The honourable the Minister of Fisheries and the government took a very reasonable, rational attitude towards it in saying that with respect to the conclusion that was arrived at by Dr.

Storey and the group of people at Memorial, that the province was not in favour of licensing of inshore fishermen, that the province would not wish to restrict the traditional entry into the fishery of this province,be it inshore or otherwise, and that the words, "bona fide fishermen" that are used throughout the report, that crept into the report as a result of an assessment made by the federal government as to what we need here and what we do not need, would be more or less applied to where benefits were available rather than to the prosecution of the fishery itself.

In that report 1which I feel is one of the most penetrating reports and one that ought to have a great deal more attention than it presently has 1 as a matter of fact it is not the place to mention it. Perhaps the Throne Speech was, but is does not look like we are going to get an opportunity to speak in the Throne Speech because it is going to be quite a while away.

I was going to suggest that this particular report and the concerns raised in it ought to perhaps form the subject matter of consideration for the various youth conferences that were announced in the Throne Speech because it is a very penetrating report. It shows the benefit of Memorial to this province, and it raises issues not just with respect to the licensing of the fishermen but reallyl if you look at it in depth, it raises issues with respect to the involvement of the federal government, its usurpation of powers, and its possible · effect upon the social end economic well-being and welfare of this province.

Throughout it, in the early parts of it, it recounts the measures that were taken early in the game by the then young government in the 1950 1 s with respect to the commissioning of the Walsh Report and h01• it was treated. You know, it was 1584

March 19, 1975. Tape 500 RH - 1 treated in the most cursory manner and similarly all the wav on through. So, I feel that this is a real matter of concern for we as Newfoundlanders. I feel that it is a good idea, of course, to send resolutions of this nature forward, but because of our relationships with Ottawa, the way Confederation has worked in this Province, I would hope that it would receive much more attention than the promised attention that was to have been paid to the issue three or four years ago when it was raised with respect to reference to the ICNAF Conference.

One of the reasons why in this Province we do not have the proper relationships with the Federal Government is purely and simply because for the past numbers of years we, in this Province, have been looking upon Ottawa as Uncle Ottawa, that everything that has been derived from Confederation has been a one-way street. Consequently, we go to Ottawa as beggar on horseback,as it were, looking for the bountiful grace from Ottawa to give us a handout 1 and this is the way we look at it. We failed to have appreciated the fact that we· had an awful lot to bring to Confederation ourselves.

It rounded out the Canadian nation. It gave them a free market, an appreciable free market 1and there were many, many other benefits and the people of Canada were as delighted for us to join Confederation as we were pleased and we are all now pleased that we are Canadians. But, unfortunately, the syndrome has built up over a number of years, a period of years in this Province of, we go to Ottawa, not as partners in Confederation, we go to Ottawa not appreciating the fact that there is a constitution and, you know, people say, you know, it was a legalistic concept, you know,

section ninety-one and

section ninety-two, but maybe it is legalistic but it was based at the time in 1867 on good co1D1110n sense, on the division of powers as between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government. What has occurred as a result of us going to - I hate to use that word - Uncle Ottawa who we have told from time to time that we have got 1585

March 19, 1975. Tape 500 RH - 2 things completely out of all perspective in this Province. We do not seem to feel that we have any rights or we should expect any­ thing from Ottawa except handouts and the net result, as I am saying, the reason for Ottawa having ignored requests, vital requests like this in the future, is to a large extent due to our own parochial and provincial attitude instead of a realiz~tion 1as we should have,that we are partners in the scheme of Confederation. I feel that this is obviously a very vital - if I am to represent a District of St. John's East, there are a few fishermen in St.

John's East, but obviously it is in the urhan area of St. John's. It does not have a preponderance of them but the fishery is jus~ as vital to every nook and cranny of this Province, be it engaged preponderantly in the fishery or not. So, I feel, Mr. Speaker, that I wish all good luck for this resolution and r ·will certainly vote for it, but I would hope that there would be a much fuller appreciation of the life and death struggle in this Province by Ottawa than has been shown in the past because I am not convinced from that the Ottawa policies have really changed.

This government has done a great deal, for instance, to end the complusory resettlement. Now, there are views for resettlement pro and their are views con and somewhere in the middle there is some - as somewhere in the middle of every issue - there is the truth. But, certainly, Ottawa, the Federal Government had for a while the impression that the most proper way in which to orientate the people of Newfoundland and order the people of Newfoundland was through resettlement and that was really not a decision for Ottawa to make.

The fact of the matter is, because of the measures that this government has taken, resettlement as such has been abolished 158t;

March 19, 1975. Tape 500 RH - 3 and the government would not tolerate it and it is to be due a good deal of praise for its actions in that area. 1587

March 19, 1975 Tape 501 (Afternoon) PK - 1 I am not fully convinced that Mr. Jamieson and the Department of Regional Economic Expansion have reaily set this particular aim to rest because they now use the criterion of instead of~ before having special areas as they used to, and the special areas where aid would be given, the special areas, were only in areas where they wanted to cause development.

Instead of that they used the word, there must be a development opportunity, and while that is a much better situation in which to be) and while you now have a government which ie determined that the rural sectors of the province must benefit_ to the same extent as the industrial areas, that develop or perish is dead, not even borrow or bust any more, it is a case of developing the rural areas of this province coincidentally with the urban areas.

But I am not 1as I say,fully convinced that Ottawa appreciates that this must necessarily be) but most important one could not care as to what you may be but what I really care about is the fact that there does not really seem to be an appreciation of · the fact that it is for the Province to make these decisions, and not for Ottawa. In other words in our desire to survive, as it were, in our desire to go as beggar on horse back to Ottawa as we used to, in our necessity for the sixty per cent or however much it is that they are paying to us.

We sometimes forget the fact that we have rights too and we are not beggars in Confederation. I hope that when the people in Ottawa receive this, that the appropriate officials receive this resolution;they will realize it is coming from people who have an equal voice in Confederation, and not from a group of beggars,as it were ,where we are looking for somethi_ng gratuitously from Ottawa. We are sending this up, it is a matter for Ottawa ·as-- ·a matter of duty to pay attention to it, and to carry it out. There are other areas that I could point out.

I do not see, for instance,why we cannot take - I do not want to protract this debate along these lines too much - but the central power, having power for instance with respect to External Affairs, with respect to treaties, you can understand them, they themselves jealously guard their powers) I can reme~ber it waR bought to such a ridiculous 1588

March 19, 1975 Tape 501 (Afternoon) PK - 2 state that the same Mitchell Sharpe when he was Minister of External Affairs,for instance,when we were voicing concerns abo4t the future of Happy Valley, and the future particularly of the American presence in Goose Bay that the honourable the Member for Labrador North would be very mm .. , interested in as we111 , and it was thought that perhaps the j'rovinciai _qQvemment should have somebody .going down witl- the federal power down to Washington for the purpose of finding out exactly what the problem was.

It is somewhat similarly the same concern as was voiced by the Province of Quebec when they talk about going over to educational conferences which are entirely within powers of the provincial government, and talking with France. And we got exactly the same type of, as I say, almost condescending reply. They say, oh, no my boys>this is a matter of Canadian Sovereignty, and it is only the federal power. You know, I myself reject that particular 6utlook.

So here~as I say,this is a resolution going up, not by beggars, not by people asking for something to be given t~ them that is not their due 1but by co-equal partners in Confederation. And I would hope and trust that whoever brings it to Ottawa would impress this fact upon them. MR. SPEAKER: The honoura