VOL. 2 PEELii'HN;..RY UNEDITED TRJI-'-\ISCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE~ffiLY FOR TH:S PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, ~~.RCH 18, 1980 NO. 12

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 42:) SD - 1 Th-s Ho•;s? !r'et at 3:00 P.M . Mr. Speaker in the Cl1air. MR. SPE~KE~ (Simms): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS !o\R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BAP .RY: Mr. Speaker, it gives ~e great pleasure today to announce the approval of funding for Memorial Gniversity's Industrial Peat Demonstration Project. My federal counterpart, ~he hon. Marc LaLonde, joins me in t~is announcement.

This approval comes under the provisions of the Newfoundland/Canada ~greEmEnt on the ~velopmer.t and Demonstration of Renewable Energy and Energy Conservation Technologies which is a five-year agreement signed in 1979 between my Department of Mines and E:-!.ergy and the federal Department of Energy, Mines and Resources and which provides up to $11.25 million for demonstration projects in the energy conservation and renewable or alternative energy fields.

Onder the agreement, $600,000 will be made available fo:: equipment and labour costs on the peat demonstration which Memorial and its partners, Lundrigan's Newfoundland Limi1;ed and Algas Resources of Alberta, already have uneerway on a peat boq just East of Bishop's Falls. The remaining project costs of $612,474 will be shared by Memorial, Lundrigan's and Algas. This demonstration involves ha;rvesting peat from the bog and transpo:!'ting it for burning in an existing hog fuel boiler at the Price CoiiiPanY Pulp and Paper !'.ill in Grand ~alls.

The peat to be harvested is not the agricultural type familiar to many Newfoundlanders, but a humified variety formed from the gradual accumulation of partially decomposed plants 11 0 0

!'!ar:::h 18 , 1980 Tape No, 420 so - 2 MR. L, BAR.'lY: and inorganic minerals in wet <n"Ourid. Fixe.d carbon within the peat p;rovides 11111ch of its combustion energy. The purpose of the pilot proqrame is to demonstrate the technical and commercial feasibility of using peat as an indUl>trial fuel in this Province. This project represents only one area of the many alternative energy sources my Department will be involved with over the course of the next four to five years. As oil prices climb; other forms of energy such as solar, wood and other biomass, wind and even J?OSSibly wave power could .become ecpnomic.

Because the Province has an excellent peat regime, this project Will give us information, particularly economic information, which can be applied to other alter.natve energy sources. 1101

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 42.1 EL - 1 MR. L. BAR."'.Y: We intend to closely monitor the results of this demonstration. Both M~~rial and the management of the Price Paper Mill w~ll be submitting t~chnical and cost reports to us throughout the peat mining and burning operations. Representatives from Mines and Energy will be directly involved in the management of the project. To assess the environmental impacts of harvesting and burning peat in the Province we are planning a cc-ordinated environmental !!'.onitoring program with various provincial and federal departments.

The production of fuel peat for industrial or commercial use can decrease Newfoundland's reliance upon imported petrole~ supplies, would cost less than conventional fuels, would create jobs within Newfoundland and would help Newfoundland's and canada's balance of payment situation. For the period of the demonstration project, Price Mill at Grand Falls has agreed to purchase at least 10,000 tons of peat which could displace almost 30,000 barrels of oil at the Mill. Hen. Members, I should also point out that this project has the full support and interest of the federal government.

And there are certain COIIUI:ents that Mr. Lalonde will be making in this respect. This ·project could enable Newfoundland to move to a leadership position in Morth America in terms of peat hu-vesting, transportation and burning technology. Two methods of harvesting will be demonstrated at the bog site. aoth a vacuum harvest­ er Which passes over the peat field, pulling off thin layers &nd passing tn. dust through a cyclone to seperate the peat from other dried part­ ic1Eo-:.., and a ridger h.rvester, which pushes the peat int.o ridges for drying before compressing with a roller, will be demonstrated at the site.

Memorial intends to harvest 400 of the 1500 acres available on the bog site. Wor.k is now in progress 1102

~ ~lar- h 18 , 1990 Tape No. 421 EL - 2 MR. L. aJ>.RRY : to drain the bo<J for lll.ininq in July and August. The harvestinc; will continue the followinq summer, with ShawMont Newfoundlana Limited supervising the field WQrk. This project %epresents as well this government's commitment to enerqy conservation and inter-fuel substitution by renewable o:~' a.lternat.,ive enerqy sow:~s. Already fiqures for 197 .9 show that Newfoandlanders burned 15 p.er cent less h0111e heating fuel than in1.1 the precedinq year.

This fiqure was attained botlt~ by homeowners beinq more enercw conservative OIJld by a large switch to woodstoves and f~aces. It is a conclusive deii!OnstratiOI! that greater enerqy self-sUfficiency can be attaJ.ned in this i'rovince and that the government's commitment to energy conservation and renewable enerqy is just,ified. In the lone; · 11 0 3

~arch 19, 1980 Tape r.lo. 422 DW - 1 ~IR . L. Bi\RRY : ter~,when all our Hibernia= and Ben Nevises have run dry - it is a little premature to be saying it .and talking this way yet ~onservation and the Province's renewaDle energy resources will ensure that Newfoundlanders enjoy a high degree of energy self-suf- ficiency. Thank you. SOME . HON. ME~BERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. Leader of the Opposi- -r.ion. MR. D. JAMIESON: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

In joining to very briefly welcome this announcement I probably cannot be forgiven for saying that there is a sense of d~ja vu about this for me.

I remember the very first job that I had with the old Commission of Government down in the Colonial Building as it was t~en the headquarters of the Department of National Resources and Rural Re-Construction, I believe it was called, one of the first jobs I had was co-ordinating a Peat Development Committee.so there is nothing new under the sun,apparently,And I believe even before that there were those in Newtcundland who were con­ vinced that peat,in the huge quantities we are said to have, could be used economically and the like~ In those days, by the way, our ambitions were decidedly more limited, perhaps relat~vely speaking the problems of the public were not any greate~but it was primarily designed to see whether it could be, from a rural point of view,used as fuel as indeed was the case ! particularly in~Ireland and in other parts of Europe.

Beyond that, I can also recall,and I welcome the co-operation of the federal government in this, the long arguments or struggles that I had over a number of years with regard to seeing whether something .. "along this line could not be done. But I take it up until fairly recently neither the economics nor the technology were of such a nature as to really justify it, although there have been,I suspect 1 in almost every year since the 1930's some people who have reasserted this belief 1104

~!arch 18, 198 0 Tape No. 422 !:H ol - 2 MR . C. JA~!ESON: in the future of peat as a substitute fuel. So that it is a good piece of wor~ I think,as the hon. the minister has said 1 it is another example of good federal/provincial co-operation on some­ thing worthwhile, And we will look forward to it and see with , I hope, optimism the results ·-of these exper- iments. Thank you. SOME HO N. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): !!ear, hear! Order, please! I am sure hon. members would like to ~oin ~e in welcoming to the gallery today the ~a y or of Centreville, Mr.

Tom Pickett,from the district of Bor.a­ vista North and the Mayor and Town Manager from the Town of Baie Verte in the district of Baie Verte -White Bay, Mayor Bill Dixon, SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: tion . MR. 0. JAMIESON: for the Premier. and Town Manager Norm Genge. Hear, hear! ORAL QuES TIONS The hon. Leader of the Opposi- Mr.

Speaker, I have a question Setting aside all of our fond hopes for the future, either as he described on Friday, short-term, long-term and medium term 1 but dealing expressly with the short-term,ar.d in his capacity as Inter-Provincial Rela- tions Minister, given the very worrisome situation with regard - not only to the economy of Newfoundland but Canada, and the very disturbed state of the world which I am sure is causing all of us deep concern,could he give us any kind of progress report at the moment on what has been happening with regard to the study initiated by the Economic council of Canada?

Is there any kind of interim material likely to be available which might give us some indication of where we are going to be, 11 0 5

March la,l98CJ Tape No. 423 AH-l MR. JAMIESON: and I do not mean ten or twenty years down the road, or five or six for that matter, but something that would give us a fix on what looks like the quite precarious posit~on that we may find ourselves in over the next twelve to twenty-four months? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, over the last number of months I have had talks with some of the people who are involved in the study to which the Leader of the Opposition refers,and I do not haveoff the top of my head the date of which that report is due to be in but I think it is sometime this Spring and I will check that today just to make sure of the date and make sure the Leader of the Opposition knows, so we have been talking to them.

Secondly on the whole planning for the five year plan thing which has been ongoing and for which a lot of the ministers have put a lot of time and a lot of peop~e internally into government,and now in the short-term for the next twelve months as it relates to the budgetary process. we will be able to show or demonstrate where we think the direction of the economy and so on of the Province 1 particularly within the Canadian context,is headed over the next year to eighteen months to which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition refers.

Number one, the economic council study is I think, due in in a fe~ months time and I will term up the specifics of that later today. And secondly 1we have done two or three run-throughs, if you will 1 of the five year plan for the Province on as many fronts as we can identify. The one snag in it has been the oil thing because it is hard to know and get a ~and~e on that and it is one of the reasons why the plan has been delayed. we are in the final throws of making major budgetary decisions relating to the next twelve months. MR. JAMIESO~: A supplementary. 1106

March 18,1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): of the Opposition. MR. J!\ IHESON: Tape No. 423 AH-2 A supplementary. The hoc. Leader I hope I can phrase this question in a sufficiently non-complicated way to have it fit the rules of Question Period. But I would be curious as to how any kind of five year planning of a realistic nature is possible, not through any fault of t~e government in that sense, but given the mercurial nature,for example 1of interest rates, of the remarkable worry tha~ has been generated by the shift in mortgages and the number of people who are in that kind of position?

In other words,what kind of bench marks is it possible for the government to employ or does it have to be done on certain kinds of hypotheses which may in fact be completely out of date before the ink is dry on the document? I do not say that argumentatively, I am just cur~ous as to how it might be possible to proceed with five year planning in the pr~sent circumstances. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well 1 what we are trying to do, Mr.

Speaker, is to show some direction,first of all as it relates to capital construction for the next few years so that we can get a handle at exactly what we are going to do even though we do not know what the final cost figures might be on any given project because of escalation of one sort and another. So it is difficult,and what we are looking for are directions over the next five years in major expense and revenue fields so that that can then be modified and upgraded each year within that five year plan.

So it is not written in stone 1 obviously 1 and each year would have to be amended due to what has hap~ened previous to that. We have talked a fair amount in the last number of weeks with people in the financial communities from the dollar side of it, with both our own fiscal agents in Toronto and in New York 1 and I will be travelling there in the next two or three weeks to get a first hand look at it myself. 1107

March 18, 1980 rape 424 EC - l ?P.EMIE::<. PSCKFORD: myself. So we are trying to get a handle on it. We have talked to Alberta as well to get some ongoing kind of dialogue there as it relates to financing. And as the Leader of the Opposition says, everybody has his own little theory on where it is going to go and where it is going to end.

So within ~~e context of the best anybody knows within a North American context, we are in touch and talking to them, and it is on that basis that we are tryin9 to project our revenues, project our expendi tu.res, look at the big things we have to get involved in over the next five years and try to build a direction for a number of major sectors, knowing full well that as each twelve men~~ period passes by,or even before ~~at, amendments to it will have to be made to reflect a new reality that we might have in 1981 ~~at we do not know about now. But it is very difficult.

And on ~~e housing side for example, it is extremely difficult. Things are really moving fast and the whole question of the cost of money now is causing a lot of problems for us just in our own budgeta.ry thing for this year. But we are using the best advice that is available both from our fiscal agents and from other people in the marketplace who~,ow and are trying to for example, our own borrowing programme for this year and over the next number of years to try to get a handle on having the right kind of mix for that kind of borrowing. Right now, the market­ place is a very dicey situation.

We thought, for example, a week or so ago that it would have been possible to move into the marketplace as it relates to money and that closed as quick as it opened, just closed right off completely, and it is very difficult now for us to get in the market­ place, as it is for almost any province, anything less than 13.5 per cent or 14 per cent money. MR. E. ROBERTS : something,is it not?

PREMIER PECKFORD: It is 14.75 per cent or Well, the borrowing we did from the Heritage Fund is on a triple A rating and it is somewhere around 11.63 per cent, which is, you know, very, very favourahle rights, and we want to exercise same additional negotiations there with Alberta and see if 11 o a

March 18, 1980 Tape 424 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: we can get some mix,bo~~ Canadian and American markets as well as ~~e Heritage Fund. The overall thing is very much up in the air now, but we have tried to get &s ma&y bench marks as we can from as m~1y sources as we can. But as the Leader of the Opposition ~~ows so well, this whole business, almost every week it changes. Now with the floating hank rate and what that will do and as things change almost weekly it is a very, very difficult game we are involved in and projections are really out the window.

I think last year - and the Budget will reflect this - some of our predictions were fairly accurate and so~ were not. And we, of course, rely heavily on the federal government in some sense as it relates to income tax generation, given certain numbers of people, because they do most of the collections and then reimburse us on it. so it is a difficult kind of situation. But we are trying to use '1o1latever means we can use to come up wi~~ something which is realistic and will not put our whole Budget ~ystem out of whack,given six or eight months down the road from the day you deliver it. MR. D. JA.'!!ESON: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the non. the Given the difficulties which the Premier has outlined, would it not be a wise idea - or perhaps it has already been thought of by the government - to have what I might describe as a short­ term approach, particularly one of advice or judgement or the like to convey to the federal government or fed~ral authorities with regard to the Budget making process?

In other words, we have a twelve month period staring us in the face now in which all the indicators for Newfoundland except for one or two are - 11 0 9

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 425 SD- 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: let ~ say, at t~e very best one can describe them as being rodest and quite a few of them are gloomy~Parenthetically, I learned just yesterday, for instance, that some of the potential fish markets are very soft,with regard to squid as a case in point.

I have no doubt that a lot of people are predicating their incomes this year perhaps on very uncertain kinds of grounds. on those matters 1 therefore,where the federal position is important to Newfoundland with regard to interest rates or to things of that nature which involve statutory payments, is the government thinking in t:erms of some kind ofadvice or proposals 1not necessarily for a full-fledged First Minist~rs' Conference because that may not happen in time, but to give a lead, at least, to planners as to how llewfoundlanc! at least feels ~~e budgetary process nationally ought to be structured? MR.

SPEAKER: (Sim:ns) PREI'.IER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, over the weekend I had an opportunity to talk to some people in tr,e federal government and we are doing it now on a fairly regular basis only since the new government has got established ~•d the ministers got put in place,and we want to see as soon as we can, and we have already communicated this to a number of the ministries in Ottawa through our senior civil servants on both sides who know one another pretty well 1 of just what, for example, as it relates to Newfoundland on the DREE side, just what kind of funds the new government is talking about on that.

There are approximately, in round figures, about $80 or $90 million which could do an awful lot for the econotny of Newfoundland over the next year or so if these are signed and all the t's have been crossed and the i's have been dotted from everybody up to and including the Treasury E!oards. And we are ready for our part, for example, as a Province to move ahe;.d on these. Andif these do not come off in the next two or three weeks, it is going to be difficult to charge up and call tenders on sore of them. So it is very important 111 0

Mar ch 18 , 1980 T ap~ No, ~2 5 so _- 2 PREMIER PECIG:'OliD : just from the provincial stand- point and also to get some reading on just how the fiscal policy is now going to be operated and the energy pricing and ~he whole wo:dts. MR. D, J.ii.MIESON: Do you have a view on f·isca1 policy with regard to interest rates? PREMIER PECKFORD: w.e have ii!liicated on a nwnber of occasions , you know, our concerns in a number of areas esJ?ecialiy, for example 1 in the housing area, one area I can think o.f of .f the top of my head whem it is very, very important.

But our own provincial olitlook , if we do not get t:hose DBEE agreements signed early is that it is qui~e likely that this year the cash flow throush on DREE will be the lowest of any year on record. And that is a very major concern be<:aU;Se you have got the window of time in which nothing has happened and it just drags everything down. Add to that t.'lat we will be- ready and we have already sul:ln!itted to DREE an ongoinq - the Trans-Canada Hishway Agnement now is in the last, the third year of ;i.ts life of three years 1 1 1 1

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 426 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: in which now we are paying 75 per cent of the cost and the Federal Government 25 per cent of the cost. I am getting L~e rest of the projects committed that tenders were called on last Fall. And here again we are into a time period wnere it is ver y, ver y important, not only from the Trans-canada Highway and ongoing improve­ ments to that which are necessary-if anybody has driven over it recently, it is just terrible - but also other secondary roads in the Province which we want to start,and start negotiations en the Trans-Labrador Highway, for ~ple.

There is a whole bunch of issues there. But on just this side of fiscal monetary policy,we have great difficulty very often in our communications with the Federal Government because very often it is late before we get any idea of what our response should be to something. And I jo not know what, for ex~ple, on the Bank of Canada thing now and how that will i.mp;act upon us, an d that was done without any ~~sultation. ~nn I do not kn ow how Mr.

MacEachen intends to pro ceed whether he will call early a meeting of ~sters of Finance, that is the usual way it has been done over the past while to get a global or a global national picture on tile whole question of ~netary policies, financial policies, economic policies, it has been done t~ rough the Finance ~ inist e~. But we are willing and able right away, and as I say over the weekend I had a fairly lengthy discussion with Mr. Rompkey, the Minister in the Federal Cabinet, and wxpressed our concerns. for h.iJD on a whole range of things - MR. THOMS: PREMIER PECKFORD: should have h;ad a bigger · j~. MR.

THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR . F . l'.'l!ITE : (Inaudible) -relative to that. No, hsaid he oh, I see. The han . the member for Lewisporte. My question is for the Minister of Finan ,=e (Dr. J. CoJ.lins) and it has somewhat to do with the exchancre 111 2

· March 18, 1980 Tape No. 426 EL - 2 MR. F. WHITE: between the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition •. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance to tell the House the situation now with respect to the Province's credit rating. It wa5 by ~ody's, I think, Baa-l,or something along those lines,and I wonder if there has been any change upward or downward in that particular situation? MR. SPEAKER (Sillllls) : DP... 3. COLLINS : The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the credit rating really applies to the ~erican markec. I just make that point that

whereas borrowing in Canadian market there is some attention paid to it, but is specifically meant for the American market. And we have not actually been in the American market for a number of years so we have not had to, shall we say, rely on a change in our credit rating for that period of time. The Province's credit rating is changed by these credit rating agencies, usually at their under­ taking. I think one can make an application to them to review it and that is done sometimes, but, in the usual circumstances, the credit rating agency, themselves, they take the initiative in this.

Now, we are expecting that if we do not get an !nitiative from the credit rating agency in the not too distant future, that we will indeed undertake an initiative on our own. We are already getting together some information along that line which would help our case, should we go to them. MR. F. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER (Sillllls) : for Lewisporte. I'Ut. F. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A suppleaentary, the bon. the Melllber Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister whether or not, in view of the speculation and the optimism with regard to the off-shore oil and gas, whether or not there has been any indication 111 3

March 18, 1980 Tape 427 EC - 1 ~- F. WHITE: from t.'tle American bonding ho•lses that there might be a movement in our rating and why the minister has waited this long before preparing some documents to try to get our rating up? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : DR • .J. COLLINS: The hen. the .Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, on the first point, we have had indications from our own fiscal agents in the United States that clearly, in their view, this would be a positive feature. As I mentioned when I answered the previous question, we have not had anything on ~ formal basis from the credit rating agencies.

In terms of why we have cot already made initiative to them, we have, up until very recently - and I do not know but it is continuing at this moment - up until very recently anyway, one would not want to go to the u.s. market for borrowing; it was much better to go to the Canadian market in view of the exchange rate situation. In the last few days there is some indication that the U.S. bond market may be opening up and there may be opportunity there, but whether that will persist, whether it is just a very brief window or not, I cannot say.

But we had no intention, up until very recently any~ay, of even looking at the u.s. market because of the interest ratesthere and also because of the exchange situation, and t.'t}ere was not that urgency to do anything about making application. But I do want to reiterate that we have not been idle in this regard. We have, in actual fact, been getting together the information that we think will be necessary when we do go. We are already preparing ourselves for such an approach from them or an approach that we will make ourselves to them. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for LaPoile. MR. S. N~: Mr.

Speaker, I woul.d like to ask the Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, who I believe is the Premier at the moment, a question. It bas to do with a half million dollar grant that was given recently to Fleetline Bus Company. I would like to ask the Premier if the Province was consulted on this $500,000 grant to 111 4

March 18, 1980 Tape 427 EC - 2 MR. S. NEA.'<Y : Fleetline Bus lines to build a new depot and buy new buses or if ~~e provincial government had any input into arriving at the decision of ~no should get this grant? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : ~.e hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not right now familiar with that grant at all. I will take the question under advisement and get some information for the hen. member.

I am aware that there is a federal programme in existence dealing with some transportation as it relates to an agreement some time ago, and I do not know if it is under that progr~ or not, so I will have to get the information for the hon. member. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S • NEA.~Y : A supplementary, ~tr. Speaker.

A supplementary , the hen. the member Would the hon. the Premier also undertake to find out if ~~e people in Conception Bay - I think Fleetline Bus lines are being upgraded from here to Carbonear - if the Premier would undertake to find out if the people in the area involved from here to Carbonear had any input or whether ~~ey made any recommendations as to what this money should be used for? Fleetline 111 5

:-larch 18, 1980 Tape No. '42 ::: DW - 1 :1a. S. NEARY : received the money, Did the people have- were · they consulted or did they have any input into what this grant could be used for? XR. SPEAKER (Simms): PREMIER PECKFORD: XR. SPEAKER: Port. MR. J. BODDSR: The hen. the Premier. Yes, Mr. Speaker. The hen. member for Port au Mr. Spaaker, a question for the Minister of!Fisheries (Mr. Morgan).

As this is.the first year that quotas have been placed on the inshore herring fishery, and I believe that these quotas were drawn up somewhere around October ar November of this year and made available to the fishermen a couple of weeks ago, dic the minister have any input into the -• drawing up of those quotas or was he advised as to what the quotas would be? MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGJI.N: The hen. Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker, no,we did not have any input as such in the establishment of the quotas, it is a federal responsibilit~ Howeve~Me did express some concerns to the federal authorities over the estimates being done by the scientists and researchers doing the work on the herring stocks. And that was primarily in connection with the Northeast Coaat 1 but I understand from telegrams this morning in my office from the western part of the Province, from the different areas in the Western part of the Province, in fact, that they are concerned and the fishermen feel that the quotas are too low.

I had a meeting just last week, in fact, on the Northeast Coast ~at a conference out there, ther~ were some changes made in midstream to the quota system whereby they increased the quota for the fixed gear which is normally the nets used by the fisher~ men _in the inshore fishery. They increased the quotas from 200 metric tons to 500 by reducing the purse seine quotas. 1 1 1 6

March 18, l98C Tape No. 428 DW - 2 :·!R. J. 110RGAN: So they are changing things in midstream and the fishermen are very concerned. We have meetings now planned with the federal authorities to discuss the overall system they are using in establishing quotas . But to answer the question 1 there is no input, no consulta- tion with us. It is based on information that they receive from the scientists and the researchers doing the work,but we are not convinced that the scientific information given these people making the final decisior is accurate. MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Simm~) for Port au Port. MR . J. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member As a

preamble to my question, I might point out that the fishermen on the West Coast are in a state of near panic in that the quotas from Cape Anguil~e to Cape St. Gregory for the inshore fishermen have been-! think in 1979 they were 3,915 metric tons and they have been reduced to 2,030 metric tons, which is a reduction by 1,885 metric tons in that particulaT area from Cape Anguille to Cape St. Gregory.

And this is very bad for the fishermen because they were encouraged last year to get into the fishery and many of them,after the success of their fellow fishermen, have gone out and bought nets and gear preparing themselves for this fishery which they were not prepared for - in other words , they were not prepared for the quotas-and they are now faced with being able to catch less herring than they did last year. Now I was wondering if the minister would take this up with his federal counterparts in Ottawa since the averaging of the 1 1 1 7

March 18,1980 Tape No. 429 AH-1 MR. HODDER: herring quota for some areas migh~ be accurate but in this particular area they were new entries into the fishery. MR.SPEAKER (Simms) MR. M9RGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, yes, I will undertake to discuss it further; in fact, we have already made plans for a meeting to discuss it.

However,I will say again that we do have some concerns o?er the method of allocation by means of quota to the differen~ types of gear for the first time this year. - that was done without any consultation with the Province - wherebythey allocated the quotas for herring to different types of fishermen using different types of licenses 1 and the fact that the quotas are reduced this year and over and above the fact that last year they were issuing more licenses to fishermen for to fish ~he herring stocks and the herring species.

So less than a year ago they were encouraging the fishermen to get more involved, as you mentioned, in buyingmore gear oy the issuance of more licenses 1and now suddenly the information from the scientists doing the work for themindicates that the stocks are not there. we do not want to see an overfishing of the stocks as occured on the south coast of the Province a few years ago.

We want to make sure the stocks are properly conserved 1 but in the meantime, as I mentioned earlier, we are not convinced that the information being used to make the final decision in establishing the quota that this information is accurate and I will be pursuing it with the federal authorities. In fact 1 I have already assigned an Assistant Deputy Minister of the department to deal with it almost exclusively over the next f~~ days because right now the establishment of herring quotas is a major problem all over the coastline of the Province 1 let alone the West coast. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. 1 1 1 a

~:a::-d'! 13 ,l9aJ Tage ~o . .:i29 ;>.?. -2 MR.SPEAXER (Si:cs): A Einal SU?p:emen~a::-y ,~ ollowed by ~he h e ~ ce~~er f~r Torn;at ~oun~6i~s followed by ~~e ho~ . ~emb~r for Terra Nova . M!t .!;C;)DER: A final scpple=en:~rv , ~r. Spedker, 5.nd a she:-~ one . Since ch e mobile fleet ~an ta~e in in abouc nine days w~ac ~r.e inshore fishermen ~ake three weeks to cat ch ,and the insho re !ishery is ve ry labour intensive, would the minister support lifcin~ the quo ca s for th e in shore fishe::-y? ~R . S?:EAKER : The hon . ~inis:dr of ~isteries.

MR . ~:O R G1.N : Well ,! will sa v th ~t when you say suppcrti~ ; 'li!t.J.ng the quotas' or raising che:r., '"'e al::-eady- in :'act. ,it. ··•as prior to las : week' s announceMent when they raised the quot~s for the insho::-e fishermen in 3ona¥ista Say, thac we had put forwa rd a lengthy telegram to the federal authorJ.cies, ~ointina . . - out our concern tnat we felt che quoca s should be highe r but the only thing is we did net have any scientific evi de nce to back up whac we were sa yi ng . Their argument against us was saying,'!fyou can prove to us that the stocks are there we will ~ aise the quotas!

This pucs us i~ a ve ry unfo rtuna te situation bec~use we ar e ba sing cur J.nf~rmati o n mo stl y from the fi sh e~ men ~hemselves, the fisher~e~ who a::-e usin; the sonar gear, etc ., ind ~c ate to us that the y are convinced that the stoc~s can take a higher guc~a ~ut , of cour se , they ~ave a b 1 t of a conflict of inte ::-e st situation; t~ey wane to see the quo ta s increased with highe r catches, coe licensed fishermen ~ho have licenses to fish for herring.

But we did express concern in our viewpoint earl ie r, we held a meeting in Corner Brook on Friday -when t say we , the Depa rtme nt of Fisheries ,provincially, and the federal authorities, with the 111 9

March 18, 1980 Tape 430 EC - l MR. J. MO!<::>A.'I : local operators in t~e area, the ?rccessors in this case, and the p~rse seiners, and they have what they call - in fact, I think they call it the herring club.

It is a club of all L~e local processors in the Western part of the Province, particularly in the Bay of Isl~•ds area and tile purse seine operators, and it seems that U.'lless the quota problem is resolved in the next number of days L~at that local club they have formed- which is working quite well, working with Nova Scotia and sharing the herring stocks in that general fishing area - that that club will break up and there is going -co be total chaos.

So we are hoping that the scientists who have done the work will review the whole situation as soon as possible and hopefully reassess the quotas and maybe increase them. That is all I can say. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPE.'~..K.ER (Sil!lllls) : Does the hen. the ~r-emer for Torngat Mountains wish to yield? MR. G. WARREN: Agreed. MR. SPEAUR: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, the problem in my district is somewhat similar to L~at outlined by my hen. friend, and as he so ably put it, it puts the fishermen in an awkward position where they have invested so much money and then find out that the quotas have been reduced. I do not know whether this is unique to my own area in Bonavista Bay, but an additional problem, of course, along with reducing the quot&s, is th&t people from other areas come in to fish.

And it is not that we are concerned about thaLt, to be so n&rrow-minded as that, the people in Bonaviata Bay, but the thing is, when the quotas have been reduced, to find other people coming in does cause a0111e sort of aggravation. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: order, please! MR. T. LUSH: My question to the minister is he alluded to the fact that the quotas were increased in Bonavista Bay. I wonder if the minister has that information, just what they were 11 2 0

March 18, 1980 Tape 430 EC - 2 MR. T. LUSH: increased to? Secondly, in this ~~ole process of arriving at quotas, is there not some place where local fishermen can have some input? MR. SPEAKER (Si:nmsl : MR. J. MORGAN : The hen. the Minister of Fisheries. The first par~ of ~~e question in connection with the details of the change 1 the change was announced by the federal authorities at a conference in Wesleyville last Friday morning.

They have not increased the overall total quota for the stocks in Bonavista Bay, but they have caused, I think, a chaotic situa~ion where they have taken away from the purse seiners, reduced their quota now which was earlier established, and added it on to the fixed gear fishermen, because this year it is divided up among different types of gear. And they have increased the quota for herring in Bonavista Bay from 200 metric tons, the earlier allocation, by an additional 300 metric tons for a total of 500.

But they have taken the extra 300 metric tons away from the purse seiners and now they are complaining loudly. The second part of the question, the input from fishermen, that was mentioned at the fisheries conference as well and many fishermen, I think, put forward their vie,.•s 1 the same as I did earlier as the minister responsible in the Province here to the federal authorities,that we felt there was a need to increase the quota, and they put forward their views at this conference. Two gentlemen from the opposite side, the member for Bonavista North (Mr. L. Stirling) and the member for Fogo (Mr. R.

Tulk) were there as well and put forward their views that there is a definite need to look at the stocks because the fishermen are convinced that the overall total quota should be much higher than it is. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. WARREN: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Torngat Mounta '. ~= . Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry). Recently, I understand, BRINEX have reverted back to the Crown some holdings of land in Labrador. I understand further that it is open now for staking.

Before any potential companies are going to Labrador for future staking, is the 11 21

March 18, l98'J Tape 430 EC - 3 M.."-. G. WARREN: minister considering the land claims issue that is on the minds of all Labradorians at the present time? MR. SPEAKER (Siir.ms) : Energy. MR. L. BARRY: its policy - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. BARRY: SOME HON. MEI".BERS : MR. L. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. BARRY: in Ireland, or is it omadhaun? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. L. BARRY: MR. SPEA!CER: SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: answer the question? MR. L. BARRY: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Mr. Speaker, government is developing Oh, oh! I am Irish all year round, Mr.

Speaker - Hear, hear! - and proud of it. Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. minister. I think the word is omaqhaun Clm.ildha.un. What was that? I cannot hear it. Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. Hear, hear! Does the hon. minister have leave to The term • slieveen' might apply occasionally too, Mr. Speaker, but I will not direct it to any particular - Mr. Spealte .r, the government is developing its policy witt. respect to native land claims, but the decision was made some time ago that development in the Province could not cease while this problem was being dealt with. 1122

Marc h 18, 1980 Tape No . 431 so - 1 MR. L. B.llRRY: So all I can say i~ that no, there has been no decision to su$pend exploration activity i~ Labrador ~cause if there is a one year hoist in exploration, well then that will mean at least a one year delay in any mineral development getting underway there. But it is recognized by gove:7;11lnent that the native lands claims ~~~atter must be dealt with and dealt with quickly. MR. SPEAICER (Siliii!IS}: Order, please! Time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING REPORrS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR.

SPEAICER: ·"'R· G, O'l'TENHED!ER: The hon, Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I alii pleased to table what puzports to be a poll and refe~d to in paragraph 27 of the Auditor General's Report. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKE ?,: and Ener~. SOME ?ION • !iE!'mE RS : MR . L. B;'\R.'I .Y: trying to get me in trouble again. The hon. Minister of Mines Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, ·my collea9'Jes are Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on toaDrrow ask leave to introc,iuee a bill entitled, nAn Act To Amend The )l.ineral Act, 1976". 11 2 3

March 18, 19ao MR. SPEAKER (Si~s) : MR. S. NEARY : Tape No. 431 PRESENTI~G PETITIONS The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, it is a great SD - 2 pleasure and a honour for me today to be able to table a petition on behalf of 332 residents of Pouch Cove in the District of St. John's East Extern. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. S. NEARY: These 332 citizens, all voters in the municipality of Pouch Cove,~re protesting the way a by-election was conducted on February 23rd of this year.

The good residents of Pouch Cove are claiming that a number of irregularities occurred in that by-election and they are asking the people's House, the minister responsible,to set aside the by-electio,n and have the election conducted in a proper 1 democratic manner. Now the minister,I know, Mr. Speaker, will brush these people aside by telling them that under the act they can petition to the Supreme Court.

Well, rrry answer to that, Sir, on behalf of the re10idents who have signed this petition, 332 of them, is why should the minister abdicate his responsibility and force these petitioners to have to solicit the services of an expensive lawyer in order to take this matter to court? I say, Mr. Speaker, that the minister should deal with this matter head on. The minister should not abdicate his responsibility. I am happy to say, Mr.

Speaker, that quite a number of the people who signed this petition, and quite a number of the people who did not sign the petition, who never had an opportunity to sign it, are seated in the galleries of this House today. And I would like to welcome these residents of Pouch Cove to the people's House. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. S. NEARY: Who else, Mr. Speaker, can they turn~, in their hour of need? It is not a matter of sour grapes, 1124

March 18, 1'?80 Tape No. 431 so - 3 M.R. S • N"'....ARY : it is not a matter of one candidate winning over the other; that is not the issue, Mr. Speaker, not the issue in this case at all. Let me give the Eouse a few examples of what the issues are in this controversy that sprung up as a result of ~~is by-election. First of all, Mr. Speaker, there was an insufficient number of ballot forms printed. There were only 300 ballots printed in Pouch Cove where you have 800 electors. The town clerk, Mr.

Speaker, who is not eligible. as Your Honour knows and as the minister knows and anybody who has read the Local Government A-ct, knows the town clerk is not permitted to participate in an election. The town clerk is not allowed to act as a returning officer or a poll clerk. The only time the town clerk participates in an election,whether it is a by-election or a general election , is in casting ~~e deciding ballet under the Local Government Act.

In this case 1 the town clerk at two o'clock in the afternoon decided to open up a second polling station in the town hall and appointed herself returning officer and one of the town council employees as poll clerk - at two o'clock in the afternocn ~-and had people come in and vote. This vas set up, Hr. Speaker, while the election was in progress. It is unheard ofl Now, Hr. Speaker, ~':!ere is a little more to this petition than I am saying at the present time. This is a matter that has been 1125

March 16, 1960 Tape No. 432 EL - 1 MR. S. NEARY: seething ben2ath the surface in Pouch Cove now for the last three or four or five years. There is a great principle involved here, Mr. Speaker- thi s petition, I~ ~ hoping,~ill bring it to a head - which a contractor, Metro Engineering, bid on a contract in Pouch Cove for water and sewerage, was the low bidder and was awarded the contract and then all of a sudden pulled out of Pouch cove. And the government refus~d to call the bond and they let Metro Engineering off the hook through political interference - MR. W. MARSHAL:::.: .!I'R.

SPEJ!J!:ER (Simms) : President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: On a point of order, ~!r. Spea. =..er . A point of order, the hon. the MI. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is obviously not speaking to the petition. The petition is with respect to a complaint by residents of Pouch cove concerning the election of their local government. Now the hon. gentleman is getting into areas, peripheral areas 1 for his own purposes,alheit, but still against the rules of this House. MR.

SPEAKER (SiiiiiiiS) : With respect to the point of order, I must point out first of all that the Chair does net have a copy of the petition so it is difficult for me to determine whether or not what the bon. member is referring to is material allegations of the petition. But I would ask him to restrict him comments to the material allegations contained in the pe~ition and ask him to con­ clude his remarks. The hon. the Member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEAIC!: Well, Mr. Speaker, the people of Pouch Cove are being asked -they are being punished -they are being asked to pay for government mismanagement.

They are asked to pay for political interference in the awarding of a contract for water and ~ewerage in Pouch Cove. kV HON. MEMBER: He is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) On a point of order, I believe the hon . rnernbe~ is now beginning to drift more into the area of debate. I would ask him to conclude his remarks. His ti~e has just about expired 1126

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 432 EL - 2 MR. S. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, let me conclude by saying, Sir, that I support this petition and I support the res­ idents of Pouch Cove who are protesting $300 connection fee for water and sewerage that they have to pay because of government mis­ management. AN . BON. MEMBER: ·'· MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : I'.R. S. NEARY: (In£udible) Order, please! Order, please! I hope, Mr.

Speaker, tr.a~ when I lay this petition on the table of the House that the Minister will net just shrug off his responsibilities by referring the petitioners to the Supreme Court of this land, that the minister will deal with this matter head on. MR, SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please. HR. S. NEARY: These are just ordinary people and I table the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I ask that if be referred to the department to which it relates. SOME BON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Affairs and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Municipal Mr.

Speaker, I agree with the hon. gentleman indeed, that this matter should indeed be referred to the department to which it relates. The department to which it relates is clearly set out in the Manicipal Elections Act,

Section 62, which states,and I quote "A petition complaining of an undue return or U.'ldue election of a councillor or of no return or double return or of any anlawful act committed by any candidate not returned by which such candidate is alleged to have become disqualified to serve on the council may be presented to the Supreme Court, her.::.l.nafter cal.led the Court ." In other words, Sir, it is very clear who - MR. NEARY : That is what I said. MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please. 1127

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 432 EL - 3 MR. N. WINDSOR: - is responsible for this. It is very clear as well, Mr. Speaker, that I, as Minister, have no authority to act under the Elections Act and that the recourse is through the Courts. To deal more specifically with the question at hand, ~~e han. gentlerran states the town clerk apparently did set up a polling booth because there was a very large turnout, there was a great interest shown by the people of ~uch Cove in this particular election.

A large number of people came out ;and in an effort to expedite, ·matters, she did apparently set up an extra polling booth and did indeed act as a poll clerk. And it is fairly cle~ that under this Act $he was outside of her authority in so doing.

However, in matters such as this the courts, we understand,would look at, parti~~larly,Section 94 which I shall refer to, and I shall quote, in fact; "In case a corrupt practice or practices is or are committed an aqent without the knowledge ud consent of the c~didate, if the corrupt practice or practices was or were of such trifiincr nature or extent that the result cannot have been affected by such practice or practices." In other words, if something takes place during an election which it is in the opinion of the courts, which did not significantly affect the outcome of the election, then the courts under this

section would not declare the election invalid. And it is our understanding that legal advice has been sought and that it is understood,as well, that this particular

section would be applied in this case and that the courts may not overrule it. Nevertheless, the eo-=ts may. We cannot prejudge the courts. And the people are entirely free and it is entirely under their right under this Act to appeal to the Courts so I would suggest that thJ':. .:.,. ::he proper course of action for them to take. 11 2 8

Harch 18,1980 MR.SPEAKER {Simms) North. Tape No. 433 AH-1 The hon. member for Bonavista MR. STI:l.LI!!IG: I rise to support the petition of the people from Pouch Cove. I think my colleague in the co~ple of minutes that he had available and in accordance with the rules of the House, could not bring out all the points that he wished to bring out. But I think it is a very significant thing that the 332 residents decided to come to this side of the House to have that petitio~ presented. Three hundred and thirt y-two people is a very significant number.

Ke have places all over Newfoundland where people are just appointed to fill town councils and in Pouc~ Cove obviously there is a great deal of interest,as has bee~ said. But there can be no doubt, Mr. Speaker, ~hat where there is such interest and people go out of their way to contest a by-election, then the rules must be fair, must be set out in advance, must be well known to everybody 1 and you can not make these kind of ad hoc attempts and you cannot let the minister just brush it off by saying, "Oh,it may be minor and anyway there is thF Supreme Court and we do not want to get involved." MR.

NEARY: Who is paying the legal fees? Will the minister pay the legal fees? MR. STIP.LING: I think that the point made by my colleague is that these people want to have that examined, and it is a very important point. The other points that he was getting into were points that he did not get the opportunity to bring forward. But this was not taken very lightly. Three hundred and thirty two residents went around, took up a petition, many of them present today - MR.!IEARY: One hundred per cent would have signed but they did not have time to bring it around. MR. STIRLING: On the question of the principle, Mr.

Speaker, there is no question that it is a very easy answer 1129

March l8,l98'l Tape No. 433 AH-2 MR. STIRLING: to say."Oh,look up the act and go to the Supreme Court." But this is a very serious request made on behalf of all these people in Pouch Cove, I NOUld certainly implore the minister to go that little bit extra, to show a little bit of concern preserving democracy and not forcing people into a court, and have his people investigate whether or not some action should be taken by the government and maybe some financial assistance, as my colleague is suggesting, should be taken to follow through to the Suprem~ Court.

I would hope that people all over this Province are encouraged to take the kind of enthusiastic action that the people in Pouch Cove have and that they should be given the opport~nity to make sure that the rules are fair to all concerned. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : Order 11, Bill No. 13. Second reading of a bill entitled, "An Act To Protect The Environment Of The Province By Providing For Environmental Assessment". The hen. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ' SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

ROBERTS: I thank my colleagues for the carefully spontaneous applause, as careful and as spontaneous as the applause we have drawn accustomed to hearing from the other side. I think the Whips ought to paid a little something extra for being cheerleaders this session of the House. MR. STAGG: Irrelevancy. MR. ROBERTS: The hen. gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) inserted himself into the debate, speaking of irrelevancies. MR. STAGG: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would say to L~e hen. 1130

1-!arch 18, 1980, Tape 433, Page 3 -- apb ~R. ROBERTS: gentleman from Stephenville that relevancy is not his strong point. Since I am in a very moderate mood and I wish to make what I think is a constr~ctive suggestion, perhaps the han. gentleman from Stephenville could listen learn. or at least listen, he is not capable of learning. and When we had adjourned, Sir, we had had some speeches on the second reading of this bill and my friend from Lapoile (Mr.

Neary) had spoken and set forth the position which we on this side have adoptr-d with respect to this bill and that is, in very short and simple words - I am thinking of my friend from Stephenville - that we support the principle of this bill and without any hesitation or any reservation we shall vote at second reading to give this bill its second reading and then carry it on through the legislative stages. It is a good bill and I think it is fair to congratulate the minister and those of her officials and others who worked with her in preparing the bill.

It is a bill really that represents an idea whose time has come and, in fact, whose time may be a little more than come because I suspect, and I have not checked this out, but I think I am on sound ground or safe ground when I say that every o~~er provlnce in Canada adopted this type of legislation a year past, two yea£s past, three, four, five years past. So what we are doing is welcome but it is hardly trail blazing, it is hardly pioneering, it is hardly a radical reform. But that does not take away from the merits of it, and I do not intend to. I do not want to derrogate the good ~~at is in it.

There is no question of a need for this kind of legislation, Mr. Speaker. There is a growing awareness across Newfoundland and Labrador as there has been across 11 31

March 18, 1980, Tape 434, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: North Amercia these last - I suppose it is only ten or fifteen years ago questions on the environment just did not come up in this type of context, or if they were raised by anybody,the proponents of those questions were derided for being either impractical or being malevolently motivated. But these last ten or fifteen years questions affecting the environment have become very central.

People are coming to realize here in Newfoundland and Labrador, as they have throughout Canada and throughout North America, two ~~ings; that our environment is fragile, that we who live in this world as human beings are but part of the ecosystem, that we function as part of the environment and that we change the enviroP~ent at our peril and that any impinging upon the environment, upon the whole ecosystem in >othich we do li ve, in which we do exist, that any impinging upon that environment will have some effect some- where else and that we must take these into account.

The second concept that we have come to accept as being true is that industrial development projects- and that is a wide term in the sense in which I use it here. Perhaps the word 'undertaking' as defined in the Act reflects it: mining projects, oil field development, any kind of development of this type-must have effects upon the environment and in many cases not only wide- ranging effects but effects that are not seen for many years to come. We have only to think in this Province of the situation we saw at St. Lawrence.

When the mine started there nobody gave thought, I venture to say- but even if tl;ey gave 113 2

March 18, 1980, Tape 434, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: thought, nobody would have come to the realization that the men working in that mine were being exposed to terrible hazards that caused and exacted a grevious price in hw~an suffering. At Baie Verte, where I say as I have been saying for ten years in this House, we are facing potentially a worse situation because asbestosis is just as insidious and just as cruel in its effects as the radon radiation that we sa\v at St. Lawrence.

Again when the asbestos mine at Baie Verte was developed - in the early 1960s, I guess that mine came on stream - these types of questions just were not raised and were not considered; and it is not that anybody was being heartless or cruel, it is just that this was the kind of idea that was not in the common currency; now it is. We have come to realize that jobs at any price are not worth it, and I think that is a valid concept. The government, if they adopt that as their philosophy, will get out enthusiastic support. If they do net adopt it, we say to them they should adopt it.

A job at any price, and I say that in economic terms, and I say that in social and cultural terms, a job at any price is not worth it. Jobs are important, but we must look at the balance, we must look at what we give or what we have to give up or the harmful effects that may arise before we take any project. Traditionally benefit cost assessments only took into account the dollars -what came into the treasury, what went out­ and sometimes they were beneficial and sometimes they were not. Now we have come the stage further and 1133

March 18, 1980, Tape 434, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: this bill represents a putting into context of that idea and so we welcome it. But having said that, Mr. Speaker, I m~st go on to say, as did my friend from LaPoile (Mr.Neary), that while this is a good bill,I would say to the Minister and to her colleagues, it is not good enough. The bill does not go far enough. The bill leaves much, too much power in the hands of the minister and then,at one stage removed, in the hands of her colleagues, the Cabinet, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council.

I would think the minister would be well advised to rethink that for her own protection, for her own safety and ease of mind. And when I say safety and ease of mind, I mean politically and publicly. I am not so sure that any minister would want to have these powers. You see, Mr.

Speaker, the weakness in this bill is not in the concept, not in the idea it attempts to advance and attempts to embody, the weakness in this bill is that there is no requirement laid down in this bill, and there will be no requirement in the law of this Province if this bill is enacted into law, as it will be but hopefully with amendments, but if it is enacted without amendment there will be no requirement in the law of this Province that there must be a public assessment process before an undertaking as defined in this bill can go ahead. MR. FLIGHT: This is the clause here that says there need not be. 113 4

March 18, 1980 Tape 435 EC - l MR. E. ROBERTS: .Hy friend from i'>'indsor - Eu.::!lans (Mr. G. Flight) has read the bill with care and attention and he has made the point tb.ac I was about to make, that the minister has it within her power- that is the trouble, Mr. Speaker, with telling these quys things in caucus, you see. SOME HON. MEMEERS: Oh, oh! MR.

E • ROBERTS : However, it is a solid point and I know ~~t my friend from Windsor- Buchans, who is perhaps even ~~re intimately concerned with the envi:onment and has shown it by a most magnificent and grandiloquent position on a number of issues which ~had, I think, great effects. M..~. J. HODDER: and Energy (inaudible). 1"-'l.. E. ROBERTS : Would the Minister of Mines Well, I am feeling benevolent towards the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) today.

I had to deal with Greenpeace yesterday in another place, and &fter Greenpeace, Sir, even ~'le Minis~r of Mines and Energy with his green shamrock is a welcome sig!'!-::. MR. L. STIRLING: The shamrock would be welcome. 'l'he point is, Mr. SPeuer - ;ond I would say this to ~~e minister in all sincerity - tnat this bill - MR. L. BARRY : Go h0111e , boy! MR. E. ROBERTS: If my friend from Bonavista North (Mr. L. Stirling) and the :nember for Mount Scio (Mr. L. Barry) are finished their speech, I will carry on with mine.

This 'wearing- of the green' , you know , these fellows - John O'Bonq, a well-known Irishman on the 17th of March, and others. Mr. Speaker, I was sayinq to the minister really that the bill is deficient and I would urge her to amend it,to lay down a positive requirement, to lay down a specific requirement in the law of this Province that no 'undertaking' as defined in this hill - and I think the word 'undertaking-' is comprehensively defined - ti..at nothing shall go 1135

March 18, 1980 Tape 435 EC - 2 MR. E. RCBER.TS: ahead withcu~ a public proce~s being undergone. Now, I have no problem with the concept of different stages in a process. If a bill sets up quite a complicated regime it ~ill be a bonanza for lawyers, and I suppose that is welcome in a sense, but, you know, you have an impact state111ent - I think that is set forth in

section - well, first of all, you register it and then you are screened and then you get, presumal:>ly, an impact statement and 1:hen you get, conceivably, a preview report, and then you may or ~y not have a board - you know, there is quite a complicated regime being set up. But the important point is 1:hat the minister may abort the entire process right at the start, because

Section 6 requires that anybody wanting to go ahead w.ith anyt.~ing of this nature send some information to the Minister in the prescribed form, whatever that may be - that may be a little or it may be a lot, it may simply be a line saying, 'Dear Minister: Please take this as advice I want to build a uranium mine in Malcltovik. With every best wish, Love and kisses, John Doe.' or it may be a very detailed requirement, we do not know; that is being left in the hands of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. And then the minister may, at that stage, end the entire process if she wishes.

Now I am sure she would not do it lightly or without coming, in her own mind, to grips with the issues, but I would say to the minister that that is too much power for her to have for her sake ar.d for the Province's sake. And I think that it should at the very least be laid down as mandatory that the process be made public right at that stage. Under this, it is conceivable that the very first we and the world know about it is when the uranium mine starts up. Let us assume the minister - we will talk about the uranium mine because that is not covered by this acti it is specifically excluded, in fact.

The propocent sends in a design to the minister, the minister considers it and she cOllies to the conclusion that an envirollll\ental illlpact statement is not required - that is the end of it there and then. And I think the minister would concur that she has that power. And that could be done secretly, that does not have to be public. And the next thing- we know would be when the bulldozers a=ive 1136

Marc..":. lS, 1980 Ta.,e 43S EC - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS : on site to begin the work. Inconceivable, no - unlikely, perhaps ye~; but certainly not inconceivable and certainly not unlawful. I think the minister, Sir, is ill-advised to ask for that kind of power and I would suggest to her in all seriousness that she ought to reconsider it. I think that those sections - and I do not pretend to be drafting - but those sections ought to be reworked to require that that stage in the process becomes public. As the bill is now drafted, Mr.

Speaker, the public are not involved until well down in the process or ~ell up in the process, however you want to put it - wel;L along in the process • Furthermore, there are a number of other thinqs in the bill. It . leaves too much in the hands of the industry and not enough in the hands of the public. The industry draft the terms of reference.

Now I knQW the minister has to approve or dis;lpprove, but the minister, who is a wise and experier.ced lady _ and has been very active in public affilirs for many years, will agree that, you ll::now, the old bureaucrat's trick - I am sure my friend, the Leader of the OpPosition has seen it a 1137 ~------..,..----·-~· -~ ~~ . ~-.--·-.

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 436 ow - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: hundred times - whoever gets to write the memorandum, the position paper that starts off the meeting, is three stages home before the thing even starts, because the discussion centers around the framework in which the author of the paper, the au~hor of the terms of reference, puts it. I say to the minister tha~ her officials should draft the te=ms of refernece. By all means let the proponent - to use that phrase - the would-be developer, let the proponent comment upon them and examine them.

I am not suggesting that it be done in isolation, but ! do not like ~his idea of the outside - the person coming in, the person whose conduct is being examined - it is a little like if we were going to court, not in a civil matter but in a criminal matter, letting the accused write the terms under which he would like to stand tria!. I do not think that is the way to go.

I think the minister should, and I am sure, the minister has competent officials and if she needs more then I would have no problem in doing my part as a member of the House to provide her with the funds to enable her to get whatever advice she needs to enable her to draft the terms of reference. If we are going to go through a public hearing, let us, let the public body set the framework and let it set it ab initio and not in response to the cleverly worked out schemes.

I do not think would-be developers are Machiavellian, but I will say they will have access to the very best advice they can get, cost being of no concern at all to them, millions being no object to them, you know, they will build it into cost of the project and Cape St. Mary's will pay for it because, of course, it is a tax write-off and as al~~~~ ~ape St. Mary's pays for all, we the taxpayers will pay for it.

And I have no doubt that that highly paid counsel that these people will get - and I do not use counsel unless somebody is a lawyer - the highly paid advisors these proponents will get will very skilfully draft terms of reference and not in the public interest. 11 3 B

Marc~ 18, 1980 Tape No. 436 DW - 2 !o!R. E. ROBERTS: That is not thair concern~ that should be our cor-cern and it should be the ~inister's concern. I think furthermore that there ougbt to be a strengthening of the powers under which a public board ~ay be set up.

Section 36 deals with this ~nd- I am sorry. I will come back to

section 36 -

section 24 deals with this and it says, 'Where the minis~er receives indication the Cabinet may, on the advice of the Minister appoint' an environmental assessment beard.' 1 woul-:1. like to see that strengthened. ~gain, I think that a mis- guided government- governments can be rnisquided,I would suggest to the minister; she may feel that she and her colleagues could not be, perhaps they could not but I would differ with that, but governments can certainly be misguided particularly on environmental issues where the fram~work in which these have evolved over the years,is inevitably citizen groups.

If a government wants to stop a proceeding, an undertaking 1 it w±ll stop it with­ out any need for any envtronmental impacts or anything else. If the government of this Province felt that the ~ranium mine ought not to go in Makkovik 1 the Kitts MakkoviY. project,• they could stop it without any hearings by boards or any new staff or anything else, Right~ No question about that. They have 1,000 ways legitimately to stop it and 20,000 illegitimate ways if they want to use those.

But where the issue arises is when public groups voice their cancern,that is where it comes out, and I think that there ought to be a stronger provision. I think that the people of this Province, the people who would be concerned about it ought to have a far more signi- ficant lever in their hands than the power co~ferred by

section 24 1 w~ich really is not anything new.

Section 24 adds not a jot, or a tittle" to the powers the minister has now because the minister has already set up a public board 11 3 9

March 18, 1980 Ta p e No. 436 DW - 3 MR. E. Rc3rRTS: but she has no legislative - - authorit.:l specifically to do it exce?t the Inquiries Act 1but she is asking for this s~ction 24 ~hich add~ nothing to her power, in fact, in my view,deregates from it because this is the one that will be ~elied upon in the future. So I would connsel the minister and say to her that she should go further, that there ought to be a .provision :.;-e.ave!ls ~ in--t-he ? 1.1!:.·1 j_ c 11 4 0

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 437 SD - 1 MR. E, ROBERTS: l'tilities Act there is a provision that when five customers- we have three u~ilities in this Province now- four, I guess; IOC is a utility in a sense, we have Newfoundland Telephone, Newfoundland Light and Power, Power Distribution District and I su2pose CNT, although they are federal. They have changed ~~eir name now lik~ leopards change their spots. Terra Nova Tel or Terra Tel or something like that they are called.

It sounds like the one on TV advertising records,' But, you know, there is a provision in the Public Utilities Act that where I think i~ is five customers submit a complaint to the PUB, they shall cause an investigation to be l!'.ade.

A."ld that is just something as simpl!!! as,' My telephones are not working,' or, you know,' How .:ome I am only getting 100 volts when I should be getting 110 and it is b=ing out the ~· motors in ll!'f machine t The minister is not asking for what I believe she should ask for 1 a grant of power not to the minister but to the people of this Province that where, for example, 1,000 people sign a petition or, you know, I do not care what the number is, where one per~on raises a legitimate point, let us go ahead and have the inquiry. ~d that is not so here.

Section 24 really adds nothing; in fact, the situation that would result from

Section 24, as I see it, is less than we have now. It is not a step fo~ard, it is a step back • .1\nd then 1-al.so ~uld urge the minister to have another look at

Section 36. That is the sort of

Section that just causes shivers to go up and down my backbone. 'Where the minister is of the opinion that it is in the public interest, she can exempt any undertakinc; from the l'lct! Now I say, Mr. Speaker- and there is no requirement she can even do it, that she must even make that public, you know. UnderSSection 36 as it now stando;, as I raad it, the minister could exempt another uranium 11 41

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 437 SD- 2 MR. E • .RO'SERTS: mine. An:l hy the way, you know, the minister might have a look at urani~ mines too because the federal government thinks they ha•re uranium mines . •rou knO'<' 1 and there is a

Section 92 (10) (

c) under which ~ey have ~xert~d their jurisdiction without challenge at this stage. ~.lright,let us tal<; .e a fluorspar mine because we have had a horrendous, if there is such a word, a horrible experience with the mine at St. Lawrence, the fluorspar mine there. Under

Section 36 the minister could decide to waive completely and totally any requirements that a proposal to open a new fluorspar mina be assessed under ~~is Act. And she is not even required to say so. You know, when you wire tap in this Province you at least got to go tc a judge to get some authorization. All the minister has to do here is in the dead of night go to Cabinet, a body properly bound by secrecy, no idea what her re~ons ~auld be, she is not required to say anything 1 as I read it.

We talked of freedom of information and I happen to believe in the concept of freedom of information, those Clauses 36, I say to the minister, are offensive in principle. I do not see why they are necessary, I do not think they add anything, I ~~ink they hurt the public interest, they give the minister a power to act secretly without even giving a reason, without even announcing her deci sion . And I can not conceive of any conceivable situation, the minister may be aware of some, but I say I can not conceive of any conceivable situation in which those powers will be needed.

I will venture to suggest something to the minister . She is new to the minist:ry, a welcome addition. I would suggest to here,and I do not ask any comment from her on this,but I 11110uld say to her as somebody who is not all knowing - far from it - but who has been around a bit, been up and down a bit, in and out a l::lit, that that clause did not come from 11 4 2

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 43:3 E:L. - 1 MR. E. RCIBER'!:S : any instructions the Minister gave or any of her politieal colleagues gave. That clause came as a result of the drafting process, ~hat is where these clauses always come from, ~he clauses that abound in the legislation of this Province 1and the Minister of Justice, I know will concur that we ought to have a serious look ~t so~e of the powers that we have given officials. You know, we think a man's horne is his castle '1 try saying that to an inspector ander the Labor St3.lldards Act sometime.

You think you have a right to your own papers, U.'''lless a court orders them to give them up? Try saying that to one of these inspectors sometime. Just try saying it and see what happens, you k."'low. And there are hundreds of inspectors who b.ve power to come into your home day and night-and these are not police coming in i.r hot pursuit of a murderer. These are men coming in seeing if you paid the minimum wages. You knew, no court gives a subpoena or an~~ing for that. They simply come in and seize your papers and take them away. · The Minister of Manpower or whatever it is cal.led .-Labour is it?

They keep chaniJing it_ anyway the gentleman from Pleasantville (J. Dinn) might have a look at i~ tee, because these powers do not come from any conscious decision by the political masters.

I am sure they cL"'I be found in acts which were brought ir. when we were in t.~e Ministry. ~u know, just the drafts­ lla!l, the nice tidy drafts~ who believe, :n the rack, you know, and who exemplifyr-I do not aean this of any individuals, but exemplify the concept once expressed 111e by a la111Yer now gone to hl.s eternal. reward, whatever that DlilY be, "Why clo we bother with criminal trials'?' ' he said.''If they weze not q~:ilty the police would r.ot have charqed them!' you know, and this

Section 36 is that kind of provision. 1143

March 18, 1980 Tape NO. 438 EL - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: 1 would say to the Minister ,have a look at it, J'ou know, it does not cost a..."l.ything of the. ,Minister in political terms, in fact she will .gain if she comes in and says, "Look, 1 have had a look at it. There is a reason for it,•if so let us state it and let us have a look at it.

But if there is no reason , let her be - I Ul in trouble with the next; phase - let her be man enough, let her be person enough to simply say~~ok, you know, we have had a look at that and it is not such a necessary thing after all." But it is a very broad grant of power, a very bread grant of power, and I do not see any reascn for it and unless I can be shown a reason I think it is a highly offensive or.e that really goes against what I understand to be the policy of this administration of freedom of infor:nat;ion,access and everything else.

It is a Star dl;a.ber, it is so~~:ething that can be done in the hack rooms in the dead of night. I do not like that and I would say to the Minister, have a look at it, please. Maybe there is a reason, I do not know, hut unless there is an awfully strong reason, I am not going to be convinced on that one. Mr. Speaker, I do not know how much lon-;er I have. 1!ime goes by; I have the magic five minutes. Well, now let me move to one other point that I want to make and I shall try to make it within my five minute~.

I want to say that this act is significant in another sense heeause it is an example of a shared jurisdietion,where this legislature has the power to make laws respecting the environment, and we are doing it, and the gove:a:.ent of C<mada has powers to make laws respecting the environment. ~ I thi.Dk that that ill just anoW!er exaJ!!Ple. we had an even better one on the weekend when the Labour Relations Board of this Province guve a decision, a judgementi -I do not know what they user 114 4

March :!.8,1980 Tape No. 439 AH-l MR. ROBERTS: a decision, in any event, with which I happen to agree.

And some of my professional colleagues in the legal world, I believe, represented the Seafarers International Union before the board, and in fact the minister might Nant to have a look at the companies that opposed it because they are the companies that talk about Newfoundland preferences and they were trying legally and properly, within their rights-but trying to put the blocks to Newfoundland who ~rap themselves in the you know,this same crowd of companies regulatiops and say, "We would not exist without the protections of the Newfoundland regulations," were the very first people to be heard before the Labour Board, saying, '1 We are against it,•• you know,'~Newfoundland's writ does not run to the Grand Banks!' Well the Labour Board,as we know,made a decision, the writ does run to the Grand Banks; there will doubtless be appeals.

I mean, this could conceivably go right tc the Supreme Court of Canada. We will see what happens. The fact remains that the first blow is a blowfor theright side, for the side that I happen to think is the correct one in this pa~ticular argument. And that just goes to show what can be done even within our present jurisdiction. You know,all this talk of ownership is interesting and it is important,but it misses a greac part of the issue on the offshore and that is that we have a great deal cf jurisdiction now.

I have heard the Premier,for example 1 on a number of occasions complain about the cost of housing,and well he might­ his knowledge may be hearsay,! have to say-but the cost of housing is rising astronomically. Land is going up 1 we all know that, any real estate agent will tell you. The Province can control housing now. They do not need any agreement from anybody. They do not need any act from Ottawa, they do not need any decision from any court. We control rents. In fact,we control rents so effectively in this Province that I understand from my 114 5

March 18,1980 Tape No. 439 AH-2 M!l.. ROBERTS: friends in the renting building business that there are no new apartments being built because you cannot get your return out of it. But that is another story and I do not know whether that is right or wrong but that is what I a:n told. We can control the price of housing. If t~e government does not have the powers now this legislature can give them to them and will. Sc we have these powers now, let us use chem. If this is an example of them, let us use even more of them. And let me make one final point, Sir, I want to welcome the Premier's speech on Friday.

I am glad it was not the one that was distributed because that would have touched off an unholy row because whoever wrote that speech-and I do not think it was the Premier who wrote the text that was given out. AN HON . MEMBER: When was that? MR. ROBERTS: On Friday. The text was offensive as well a~ inaccurate and incorrect. The Premier quite properly, and in my view quite wisely 1 choose to ignore the words that the author of that speech, whoever it may have been, put in or sought to put in his mouth.

I thought the Premier's speech, Sir, was a significant step forward and I am sure I speak for all of us on this side when I say we welcome it. He moved towards what I believe to be, what we believe to be, the realistic position on this o=fshore issue. There is no question of ownership. I dragged out the journals, you know, the thing we do not read each day but which are the official records of this House, Mr. Speaker, and I have here the one for Wednesday, March 5, 1975. Some of us were here then. The Premier was here then. The gentleman for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) was a member then.

I am not sure that he was in the ministry at that point or not but he was certainly in the House. He was a member. The gentleman who now sits for Waterford- Kenmount,I believe was in the House. A number of us were. 11 4 6

~la rch !8, 19C'O Tape !';o . 439 IB -3 :-!?. . RO:S=:?.TS: Le~ me just reaC two se~~ions frvm a resclu~ion that was moved by ~he Ministe= of ~i~es and Energy (Mr . Barryl who was chen as now , you know, c~e present mir.i sce r was ~he minister the n - there was an hiatus in between courtesy of the elec~orate but he is back with us - and seconded by the then Leader of the Opposi=ion ,who is not the Leader o: the Oppositi on anymore. just two: He had a hiatus coo . But. let me reaC "AND "tiH EREAS the Concinent:al Shelf and ::~argin adjacent: co Newfoundland and Labrador ext:end beyond 200 ~iles an~ the Province has a pre-confederation le~al claim to the m~nercl resources c~ereof; and

WHEREAS such resources still belong ~o the Province of Newfc~nd land and Labrador; and WH'E?.Ei".S that po!::'tion of the continentia! Shel: and margi~ beyond 200 m.iles conta ins valuable mineral de?osits•• da,da - Ca,da - 0~, da Qnd so forch. That resolution was adopced unanimously. It was an agreed upon resolucion that arose out of a debate which I 11 ~ 7 ·-

lolarch 18 1 1980 Tape 440 EC - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS : initiated on elat 200 mile limit. My friend from St. George's is shaking his head. MR. W. MA.\~SHALL : MR. E, ROBERTS : MR. D. JAMIESON: would have heard. MR. E. ROBERTS : (Inaudible) the Th:one Speech now. No, I am speaking on an environment bill - If you had been in all the time you - and I think I am spe~~ing very much to the point of the bill, but my friend from St. John's East (Mr. w. Marshall), I know, cannot understand some things. But I cannot understand some things he says either, so that is fair trade, is it not?

The point is, Sir, that ownership is not what has been at issue. What has been at issue is the me~~odology, the approach, and I think the Premier's speech on Friday is a significant step forward. I want want to say t.'lat we on this side, Sir, welcome it and we on this side now, as always, are quite prepared to respond in kind. Our dedication to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador is no greater than gentlemen opposite. DR. J. COLLINS: (Inaudible) • MR. E • ROBERTS : I have this terrible problem - when the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) says something, I know it is interesting and I just want to hear it, and when he says it so loudly that I cannot avoid hearing it - I do not know 'olhat he said, but I could not avoid hearing him mumble. DR. J. COLLINS : I am sorry. MR. E. ROBERTS : The hon. gentleman does not need to be sorry • I am sorry I dl.d not hear what the minister said, because it is always a contribution of some sort to what is going on. But I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, '~a~ we on this side have no greater dedication to the interests of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador than do gentlemen opposite and we have no lesser a dedication. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 11 4 6

March 18, 1980 Tape 440 EC - 2 !·!R. E. ROBERTS: You know, I have been called a lot of offensive things, perhaps some of them justified, bu~ to be called a traitor for saying what I think, I find to be just as offensive as anything can be. The gentleman withdrew it - not gracefully - he withdrew it, and I will leave it. But I want to say, Sir, that we think the Premier's speech was a significant step in the right direction. He was taL~ing about negotiating a settlement - not the place to go into it in detail because it is not the Throne Speech. But I think, Mr. Speaker, that t."IJ.at is the approach we take.

And I think this bill shows the kind of thing that can be done and I would hope tile minister will get together quickly, if she has not already, with t.lJ.e people in ottawa, the minister and the officials in Ottawa who are responsible for this branch of the Government of Canada, to work out some joint approaches. Because, you know, we are not far away from tne day when we may see development go ahead out there. And as my friend from LaPoile (Mr. s.

Neary) and as t.'le Leader of the Opposition and many others have said ti:ne and time again and as the Premier has reflected, the oil, in itself, is not as important as the fisheries. MR. SPEAKER (J. Butt): Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time has exp~red. MR. E. ROBERTS: May I h~ve a oo~ent or two to conclude? MR. SPEAKER: By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave. MR. E. ROBERTS : I. thank hen. me:nbers. I will only be a moment or two. The fisheries - you know, we have seen in the Bay of Mexico what can happen in relatively callll waters, relatively shi'~-1~~ ~ater, nothing cmnpared to the North Atlantic - MR.

D. HOLLETT: Warm waters. MR. E. ROBERTS: - and warm waters, as my friend from Burin - Placentia West points out - nothing compared to what we must contend with off our coasts. So it is crucial that there be in place environmental regulations. And I do not care who owns what, I say to the minister - 11 4 9

~ch lS, 1980 Tape 440 EC - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS.: and she cannot deny this - that that is a shared jurisdiction out there, that the federal people under the constitution have a degree of authority just as the Newfoundland Gove~t, in my view, have a degree of authority. So we ought to move quickly to qet some regimes in plilce. 'l'his bill will not do it, it is not intended to do it. In fact, the bill hilS a defective definition of water in it, as i think the gentle= from Mount Scio (Mr. L. Barry) pj.cked up. It i.s quite defective in that sense 1 it may be defective in other senses, Mr.

Speaker, let ma conclude by saying again that the Premier's speech on Friday, I think, was a states=-like speech. I have not said that about all of 11 50

March 19, 1980 Tape No. 441 •';H-1 )o!P.. ROBEP.TS : his speeches, but that or.e '~·as. C: think it was a step forward and that we on this side are more than prepared to respond in kind and to •~rk towards what we believe is the best interests of the people of this Province. We want to ~ake sure that our people get what is theirs. God, we represent. most of us,rural constituencies, how could we not want it? When we talk of the lack of services, 2s the Premier did on Friday, it is our constituents.

Your Honour's constituents have many needs in Conception Bay South but nothing compared to the needs of the people who live or. the :<orthern Peninsula.

The people in Pleasantville have many needs 1 but nothinq compared to the people who lh·e in ?ort au Port district More than anybody else, we are aware of the needs constantl~.r, ccntinucusly, effectively, forcefull.:. sn I thank the Premier on this new ap?roach 1 and I take it his speech on Friday was a significant change and I welcome it, and I want to say, Sir, since it is the first opportu~ity any of us on this side have had to respond in the House - we have responded outside - that we welcome it and we will work gladly towards that end.

Ownership is not the issue and those who think it is, in my view, are a little off base, and let me leave it at that. That issue is long ago decided in this House, long ago resolved insofar as the fifty-two of us ~o, but the real issue, the real question, is how do we go about making our ownership effective? How do we go about accomplishing what we want? How do we get the money that we must have? How do we get the social and economic controls we must have?

This bill, to conclude on the second reading, as far as I ~~ concerned, this bill, Sir, is a good bill but it is not nearly good enough, I point out to the minister in what I hope is a positive sense, I assure her I could have been, I think she will concede, far more devastating. I have an ability, perhaps, to that extent sometimes. Ycu know, I think the bill is a good bill.

I think her heart is in the right place, but I think that there are some changes which ought to be made and I suggested to her the areas where I think those changes should come and the types of changes which I think should be made. we will vote for the bill because it is better than what is there now, which is nothing, but 11 51

~/.ar::~ la, 1 ~a~ Tape -:o • .;.;1 GH -2 ~lR .

ROBERTS: 11e ·~oould vo::e for it a lot more enc:h:uia:;ticall y if the mi:1ister .:nn respond to sone of the poin,;s th c;t r have raised, hopefully make sorr.e cha:.ges, :~t it may be thae she will have considered them and decidee :1ot co ~ke char.ges, but I hope ~at she will ~ca~se I thln:~ t~e ch~nges which v.·e have sucqested are c;coe ones. 1\s ! said ~arliar thac te::r ible mi xed meta?hor; the lanquac;e really is sexisc:, you knO"-'• a!\d I do noc: kno~o.· . .,hac ~o.-e can do about it . 'tie ·.,il L just ha·1e ta use fhe metaphors that ha ve b ea~ develo?ed over the centuries for the ~iniste:: co amend the bill i:1 response to su;cescions of menhers of the 1icuse is noc a backing off i:~ any way .

It is not a nac'te:: of confide:1ce L~ the gove::r~enc: or ani~~ing else. :t is a ~tte r of the niniste:: beinc man e:'!ough or ?&SO!l e:-:ough to rise to the occasion . r believe she is a:-:c ! hope she -.,ill on rhi s matte::. MR. SP~AKER : (9 Utt) :·a. THOMS: ~ - ?A'M'i:R.SON: Thar.k you very much, Sir . The hon . me:nl'>e::: !:or Pl acentia. ~le only got to the 1960s las t ti:ne . The sixties 7 lto, we '-'ill ;JOt: !>lane that on the past a6"i~istration. ~e w~ll le: t~em o!:f the hook tce ay. C~ ~news they wil! ~Y - They ~ve sins enough or. their pl at: er. YI .

Spe~~er, I would like to conarac~ate the minister 11 52

March 18, 1980, Tape 442, Page 1 -- apb MR. PATTERSON: for this very fine bill. I think, as the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) said, it is long over­ due. I think we should possibly listen to a little of what the hon. member had to say with regard to putting our heads together on this particular bill. It is a very serious bill, it is a serious matter and we should not just let this bill go through ~~e House possibly this evening. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PATTERSON: I think we can all add a little to it.

There are certain things in it possibly that could be deleted and certain things that could be added. I was very much pleased the other day when the member for the Strait of Belle Isle spoke with regard to the possible threat of icebergs in the North Atlantic and the great threat it poses to the offshore drilling. I think with regard to that we could learn a little from this little book here, ~ecks Awash. It is the last edition there and that deals with the movement of icebergs in the North Atlantic and if you will bear with me I will just read a little from it.

It says, 'Prior to exploration for oil and gas there had been no pressure on the scientific community to collect extensive environmental data'­ explains Denner. He is a Professor at the university. 'Furthermore, studies made of the Gulf of Mexico, the North Sea and other offshore regions are really not very transferrable to offshore in Newfoundland and Labrador. The environment here is not only unique, but also unstable and very harsh, especially considering the unpredictability of ice drifting', according to this gentleman. He says, 'There is a need for a 1153 :.

March 18, 1980, Tape 442, Page 2 -- apb MR. PATTERSON: co-ordinated research programme to assemble a body of local environmental knowledge regardless of the cost involved and regardless of how much it might inconvenience the oil companies'. What about icebergs? There is a question that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) asked in his speech last week. He said, 'Could they cause a disaster?' Doctor John Jones of the Centre for Cold Ocean Resources Engineering says, 'The Hibernia well site is certainly in the area that is likely to be affected by icebergs'- MR. NEARY: Iceberg Alley, is what they call it. MR.

PATTERSON: Yes. -'particularly from February to July. To date exploration has been carried on during the Summer and Fall when hazards presented by icebergs, pack ice, waves and \~eather are likely to be minimal. This year, however, exploration is to be active during the hazardous Winter period but ice difficulties are periodical. Some years ice is more prevalent than in other years and there does not yet appear to be any accurate way of determining in which year or month hard ice conditions might be experienced'.

One of Jones' solutions is to use platforms that could easily be disengaged and moved in the event of hazardous ice conditions. MR. NE.IL~Y: Right on 'Bill'. MR. PATTERSON: So I would warn the govern..1'!1ent that we should tread 'lery softly. Find out if the oil is there and if we have all the environmental controls in place to bring it in, 1154

~arch 18, 1980, Tape 442, Page 3 -- ap~ ~L~ . PATTERSO~: !ull speeC ahead . r= we have no~, leave i~ there, use ic as colla-ceral. \ve will get just as muc3 out of it under the ground as we will get on tc9 o= the ground . I think the fisheries should be given first priority . The oil is an non-rene •.vabl e resource \.;hereas the .fish is a rene.,/ able resource. I was very much impressed tbe other day wi t!-1 the member for Burj n - Placentia West (Mr . Hollett) . He was concerned over the definition of the Northen cod stock .

Nher. does it cease to be the No rthen cod s1;ock? ~vhen it leaves the Hamilton Banks some c! the fish will go down the Strait of Belle Isle, others will come on down onto the Grand Banks. Is it tr.e ~orthern cod stock then? And are we prepared to give it the same protection? These are things we must look at and not shove under the table . And he goes on to say here, 'As far as oil pollution on th e Labrador, investigations show ~~at ocean cu=rents would tend to keep oil away from the coast ' - explains Leslie Rowe , a marine biologist with the 1155

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 443 so - l MR. W. PATTERSON; Department of Mines and Energy in Ottawa. 'Off Newfoundland, however, there is another problem. The Hibernia well is located in a prime fishing breeding ground and if anything happened to those fish the future of many fish stocks would be in danger. Mobil therefore has to submit its drilling programme to the Newfoundland government for approval including detailed plans for oil spill clean-up.' And then he goes on to say that there is very, very little hnown about ~~e clean-up of huge oil spills. MR. S , NEA.'l.Y: Right on. MR. W.

PATTERSON: And then the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary)- I think he must have read this book. MR. S. NEARY: No, I did not. MR. W. PATTERSON : He said about the money-bags coming in with all of their money and buying off people and there are none of us - what is your price 7 There are none of us immune to that. MR. S, NEARY: to get moved around. MR. W, PATTERSON: on that, he says lilo, wait until the money starts So he gives us a bit of advice MR. S. NEARY: Just wait. MR. w. PATTERSON: - "There is a tendency for oil companies to be paternalistic·. !-!r.

Clark recommends that a community should not put itself ~der the obligation by accepting fa~urs or gifts from companies. No hockey rinks, town halls or hospitals"-MR, S. NEARY: MR. W, PATTERSON: That is the Liberal party talking. - that is right. "Instead, communi ties must demand that they be treated on an equ.1l basis. · Many people are overwhelmed by the oil industry. They maintain that the attitude of the oil industry will control it, Shetland took the opposite position, they decided to control the industry and if 17,000 people could do it 1 Newfoundland is in even a better position 1156

March 18, 1980 MR. W. ?ATTERSON: AN HON. MEMBER: Tapa No. 443 to do so.'' Hear, hear. SD - 2 MR. W. PATTERSON: So I think it is very important that we have our clutches into the oil companies and ir.to the control of the leases and into the management . of the operations otherwise we are going to wake up sadder but the wiser people. Then he says here, "The world is energy hungry,particularly the Middle East. Supplies have becotr.e so unstable there.

If a coll'l1lercial oil find offshore, it will be developed and Newfoundland will have to cope with the impact of such development liJc.e it or not." Now the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E. Roberts) menticned about real estate the~e and he deals with it here. AN HON. MEMBER : The member for LaPoile. MR. W. PATTE P.SON: The member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary.) Be says, "Notably the most visible area of impact will be the cost of living." According to this gentleman in Edmonton the hal !!sta .te Soard there he said, "In Alberta the living costs have risen dramatically.

For example, an average building lot in Edmonton today costs about $35,000 but one nearer the inr.er core of the city could run as high as $60,000. Duplexes cost $180,000 and land four years ago was selling for $100 per acre. In some parts of Alberta it is now selling for $30,000 an acre. Taxes howevar are not high although real estate prices are; for example, on a house valued at $105,000 taxes are approximately $320 per year." So I wauld advise all members of this Bouse to read this little book. There is a lot we could le.un from it.

Whether we represent coastal areas or inshore areas, you know, there are none of the districts safe from pollution and I saw this in tne Christian Science Monitor. It says, "Su~phur dioxide pollution is caused mainly by power stations burning coal and oil. Bri tian • s policy of dispersing air-borne p.Jllution by IIE!ans of high stack chimneys 11 57

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 443 SD - 3 ~R. W, PATTERSON: has, in fact, relieved pressures on the local environment but it has also lead to the export of pollution to other countries including Scandinavia. A report published by ~ group of Scandinavian scientists claims that acid rain has caused the destruction of fish in 2,300 lakes in Norway and SWeden and that forests and crops are also in danger." So no matter where we live on this planet, this globe, we are in for trouble and it would be useless for us to think that pollution can be controlled where it would not have any effect at all.

According to this company, it estimates that the removal of sulphur pollution at the source would cost something lik~ $6 billion a year cempared to the economic loss of $1.2 million in the fish. So, you know, I have talked so much about pollution here sometimes it is a bit boring but I am genuinely concerned with the effects of it and I have seen the destruction and the misery it can cause and I think now that we can take the proper precautions.

The canadian federal government officials watch activities with much concern about Canada's uncertain territorial rights in the region as about the possibility of oil pollution. The latter problem, however, was dramatized towar:i the end of August when a supply ship and 115B

March 18, 1980 Tape 444 MB - 1 MR. W . PATTERSON: barges on the way to one of the drilling stations were trappe~ in ice with a possible loss of 400,000 gallons of fuel oil;' That is a fair amount of oil to be dumped into the ocean. "Shortly afterward the 950 foot converted tanker s.s. Manhattan came along with an icebreaker escort,crunching through the passageway at a record pace to test the feasibility of a route into Alaska.

Pollution danger that parallels the all-out drive for oil is summarized in the following items:- one, shipping and port activities release at least one million tons of crude oil into the sea each year~'-so assuming we never had a spill from a well there is that much oil ~umped e~ch year into the oceans~ "plus oil spilled from shore installations, offshore drilling operations and other sources may be comparable to the entire production of the hydrocarbons by plants and animals in the ocean.

Number two, additional volumes of petroleum products find their way into the sea from bilges and fuel tanks of oil burning ships, from engine compartments of pleasure crafts and from sunken ships and from shore activities. Number three, although the short-term biolo~ical effects of crude oil appear to be limited except for the destruction of waterfowl 1 chronic pollution poses a threat to marine life, the fishing industry, recreation and the habitats of animals and plant3 in the tidal zone and along the shore.

And some of the most beautiful and popular beaches in the world have ~een invaded by sheets of crude oil in the past few years that have marred natural beauty and sent their acid stench miles inland. The methods to counte~- act oi~ spills are i~adequate,and in the case of certain oils, cause more damage to marine life than the oil itself. 1' So, while we are all hypped up on this oil bit I think that we should be very cautious and be very careful and what we have we should protect and what we are seeking be very cautious in persuing it. Thank you. 1159

March 18, 1980 Tape 444 MB - 2 HR. SPEAKER : (Butt) The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Thank you, ~r. Speaker. The first thing I want to do in speaking to this bill is to compliment the minister, Mr. Speaker. It is,I agree, a very important bill. ~s the hon. House Leader, (Mr. Marshall), said it certainly is a first step. Now, lir.

Speaker, I am sure the minister is one of the first people to realize that with all the talk we had today of oil, how one day we are going to be rich with oil coming out of our ears, and dollars flowing out of everywhere, electricity coming down from Labrador Cadillacs all over the place, well the good life will not be very good, Mr. Speaker, if we have to look at a Province that is ba=ren and devoid of wildlife, and ~as dead rivers, dead trees, polluted air.

The dollars that come from the flow of oil will ~ot have bought very much because 1 given their choice, the Newfoundlanders who have enjoyed the kind of heritage we have had up to now would rather be in Toronto-at least the weather will be better there. So the minister has started on what is obviously a very,very important first step. Now, I have to agree with the speakers before me, that it is the weakest bill. It is a good step but it is a weak bill, There are so many flaws in this bill, Mr. Speaker, that it is not going to serve the purpose that the minister had hoped it would. Mr.

Speaker, this a~t,as the hon. House Leader mentioned,need not apply. There -. ~ can be all kinds of proje~ts go on in , this Province with all kinds of environmental implications and it need not apply , and .--- - -' --- --· I will not say any more. our House Leader (Mr. Roberts) indicated that. The power is in the minister's hands and if she so desires she need not have any kind of an environ- mental impact assessment or hearing. Mr. Speaker, {t is a little worse than that; there are two clauses in this bill by way of setting up apparatus that bother'ae. One is in the first 11 6 0

March 18, 1980 Tape 444 MB - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT: instance the minis tel: (Mrs. Newhook) has only got, under a clause in this bill, to set up an assessment committee 1 and that committee is to be made up of civil servants. The minister appoints civil servants, and a civil servant must be the chairman. Now, Mr. Speaker, our history is full of cases where the civil servants did what they believed the minister wanted them to do, they made the recommendations that they thought the minister mig~t have wanted. And, Mr.

Speaker, if while that assessment committee is having their hearings or whatever they do, if the general public does not get involved, if somebody from the general public does not write the minister and indicate a concern for what might happen from a given subject,there is no reason for the general public to ever h~ve any input. The old saying, Mr. Speaker,' Out of sight, out of mind,' applies very much in this. If you try to put something that is going to pollute the air in the center of St.

John's or on the outskirts of Corner Brook, or in the middle of Gander, I will guarantee you will get a good crowd jumping up and the minister will have her i~pact board set up and the committee of civil servants that she talked about will not last very lonq. She will have to go into an impact board, an assessment board and have the public hearing that goes with it. But what about if that project is taking place~omewhere isolated, somewhere in the interior of Newfoundland where nobody gets to see it in the first place, nobody is aware of what is happening until it is half done?

If somebody is not aware, some concernad citizen,or some environmentalist, if you want to call him that, is not aware that a given project is going on, that there is a diversion of a river or a damming of a lake or some surface stripping going on and,therefore, the minister has not received in writin~ a concern , by a citizen, will the minister then on her own set up the assessment board or will she maybe act on the advice of the assessment committee, the civil ser7ants who 1 1 6 1

!1arch 18, 1980 Tape 444 ME - 4 ~R. G. FLIGP.T: saidf~oot,there does not seem to be any concern with this, w~ do not find an y danger any problems. Go ahea~~~ Mr. Speaker, let us look at what 1162

March 1.8, 1980 Tape No. 445 R"' -1 MR. G. FLIGHT: has happened this last twenty years in this Province. You know it is this bill - where I compliment the minister. is the very real possibility if this bill had been in place ten or twenty years ago we would not have been looking at some of the environmental disasters that this Province has been sUbjected to. SOME HON. MEMBER: Heil.r, he•r! MR.

G. r....:GHT : Let us look at it, let us look at the Bay d'Espoir, the original Bay d'Espoir development, the hydro,the old Newfoundland Power Commission, a disaster, hundreds of thousands of acres o~ land iesecrated, timberless, standing free, land flooded, wild life destroyed. No environmental concerns in that particular. project. What about the l!'.ini.ng . COIIIP&nies Mr. Speaker? This bill might have averted 1when we had for forty years a major mining company in this Province was polluting Bed Indian Lake, putting the tailings right out of the lake.

And then ten years ago,and not at the insistence of this Province, at the insistence of the ~ederal Government out of a concern for the fish life of the lake, they had to stop and they put in tailing ponds. And as the minister may nll knew now 1 she has prob~ly bad representation en it, but given the right weather conditions now the dust of these tailing ponds is choking the people of Buchans on any given da.y. So, JU.ybe if thb bill had been in place ~~~aybe somebody would have seen the possibility of what would happen.

And I would like to hear the minister tell me,when she gets up to reply, what she purposes to do about that environmental situation in Buchans, wllere, by way of trying to clean up the~ &et in Red Indian Lakej. the company coDcerDed craated tailing ponds that c;iven the right weather condition - MR. BARRY: Nothing to brag about anyway. MR. G. FLIGHT: No, I rt!alize that. I 11111 just j!ointing out what this bill !llight have &voided had this bill been in place tiix or seven or thirty yeus ago or six or seven years ago. What about the logging compil.Dies~ ~hat About,aqain,Bay Verte-. streets built from rock, 1163

Masch 18 l.980 Tape No. 445 RA - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: crushed rock from the mining sites contains asbestos; children played in it up to a year or two ago. PJaybe this bill might have avoided something like that. What about the Erco situation, Mr." · Speaker? I have :1ot heard tell of that report that was supposed to have been presented to this House, What is the store y on the deformed rabbits?Are the1~ any still left around the Lon£ Harbour area? What is the environmental situation in Long Harbour right now as a ~esult of the Erco operation?

That died. 1t was a big deal for a while , everybody was concerned -and I do not say that in a facetious way, I say it seriously • There was some di•cussion as to whether you could grow vegetables in the area, whether it was safe to grow and eat the vegetables, and that died. Maybe in this particular debate the minister will give us an update on exactly what is happening environmentally in the Long Harbo~r ar~a.

How about the power lines that are built in this Province, Mr. s~~~er7 The minister should be aware that a ~~inland company c~ in, Chico, and built a power line across the Province to hook most of ~he Frovince into Bay d'Espoir. Their eaployees rode shot gun on the muskegs with a rifle strapped around each shoulder in the most populous-in the area of Newfoundland that has got the biggest moose population in Newfoundland,or had it.

The foreShoulder that got the bullet, that got you a bot ·tle of cheap rlllll; the fore;rr.oulder that was not hart · very much got yeu a little more expensive ~;and a hindquarter came for a bottle of scotch, a good bottle of scotch would get you a hinc;lquarter anywhere in the Bucbanil ~ area when that pvwer line was being built • And now, Mr. Speaker, now there are no moose left between Buchans and Grand Lake. And the biologist• down in Wildlife tells us that the problem is they ate their way out of the habitate, they ate everything that was in the habitate. ~ey ate it alright , Mr.

Speaker. nere is lots of feed left in that area for the ~~ose; the problem is there is no moose.~hey were all shot because we were lacking something like this and - were lacking a government with enough - which so laclted concern that they did not bother ·rl:oO: look at it. About the Exploits River, ~. Spealter, c:.an the minister when she stands up in her debate tell us how much poll]&ing is going into the Exploits River today, how 1164

March 18. 1980 Tape No. 445. RA- 3 MR. G. FLIGHT: many gallon~ per day, gallons per day of raw pollutAnt is being pumped into the Exploits River, the largest Biver in this Province, the river that carries the biggest salmon runs in this Province,as well as the sewerage from the t~o major towns, Grand Falls, Windsor starting at Badger, a town in my district that has got a treatment plant? What about that' wi~ this bill have some effect on the kind of pollutant that is going into that particular river? Now, Mr.

Speaker, assuming we had had this bill for twenty years it may ·have avoided some of the things that I have eluded to- but would it have,.Mr. Speaker1 The House 'W'ill rec<!'lJ. that every major environmental threat or damage every project damaging to the environment of this Province that I have ~nticned are the major companies. I have not mentioned people out in thei~ trailers that the minister seems to be concerned about, •omebody parked overnight in a ·trailer and leaving a little bit of gar~age­ and I do not condone that. But ~hat I am saying 1Mr.

Speaker, is the damage , the environmental damage that has been done to this Province to date has by and large been condoned by the government of the day and done by the major companies that they were doing business with 1 and the gcvernr.~ent up to this point and time has turned a blind eye. Now what woUld this bill have done about that,Mr.Speaker; I submit to House it would have done nothing. Let me read and let me hear the minister explaim 116 5

March 18, 1980 Tape ::<o. 446 GH-l ~!R. FLIGHT: Clause 310,

Section 2, ''An undertaking that is ir. progress before this act comes into force is exempt from this act.' Now, Mr. Speaker, where does that leave the logging companies, tPe logging companies, the two major logging companies? If one of those companies today is to go into a new area altogether to start cutting wood and building access reads, is it subject to this act, or will this clause exempt it?

If one of the major companies decides, and is in the process now of building darns for purposes of conserving water, raising dams and raising the various lakes to the highest point possible for the purpose of conserving water - they are doing that now as a result of the water shortage this last year or sc - will that be considered under this bill? Will there have to be an environmental impact study set up and public hearings or will anything done by the paper companies that are in this Province riqht now be exempt as a result of that clause? What about, ~tr.

Speaker. if the mining companies already in business in Newfoundland decide they want to strip-mine an area a mile or two from where they are,or want to sink another shaft to get at the same ore body, will this clause exempt them? An undertaking that is in progress? The fact that American Smelting and Refining Company or Daniel's Harbour, that those mines are alreadv in progress - is any action by that company considered an extension to what they are already doing under this act and, therefore, exempt? I v;ould like to hear the minister expound on that if she would. And, Y~.

Sceaker, let roe tell the hen. minister that I have a qreat deal of resoect for the minister and I admire her couraqe for bringing this bill in, and as we chatted a little earlier on in the week she realized that it is the first step and, no doubt, she will be prepared over the next year or two to beef it up and maybe she will accept some amendments, because, without amendments, this bill will serve no purpose. I would submit to the minister that she has been used by other ministers. AN HON. MEMBER: What? 1166

March 18, 1980 Tape No. 446 GH-2 ~1R. FLIGHT: She has been used, been used. She has been hoodwinked. Either, ~x. Speaker, one of two things happened. Either the Upper Salmon development wc.s brought on stream earlier to avoid having to come under this bill, or else the legislation was delayed until the Upper Salmon got started. The Upper Sa~mon project is going into one of the most environmentally sensitive areas of this Province, ~Ir. Speaker, without the benefit of an environmental impact study. Nm v this bill would have subjected that project to an environmental impact study. Mr.

Speaker, there is a clause in this bill as well that says that the company concerned,or the co~ission or whoever is going to do anything that may affect the environment of this Province in this Province ,, has to give the minister in writing any possirle alternatives to what they are proposing. well, let me tell the minister that the Minister of Mines and C:nergy Oir.

Barry) , through Newfoundland P.ydro, was advised by every environmental study done on the Upper Salmon to reroute the propcsed road that is now under construction, that if he had any concern for the disturbance that he would cause the caribou herds in that area,to reroute the road. And Hydro stood firm- it would have cost them another million dollars. mavbe. I do not know what it would cost. but it would have cost more dollars. Obviouslv there had to be some reason - refused · to accept the alternative and 've have a road going in now, Mr.

Speaker. that everybody who knows anything-about the caribou migrations and knows anything about the environment of the area will stand and say that that road will have to have a detrimental effect on the migration of the caribou. Now, one has to ask what kind of concern, Mr. Speaker, what kind of people are we dealing with who allow a project like that to go and keep this bill - push the project ahead and keep this bill in abeyance. This bill was talked about last year, yet the Minister of the Environment (Mrs.

Newhook) permitted, sat still, sat quiet, and allowed the Upper Salmon to start without the benefit of an environmental irnoact studv Now, Mr. Sneaker, does t~is clause, uAn undertaking that is in progress before this act comes into force is exemot from this act)' does this clause exemot the whole Uooer Salmon? 116 7

~!area lS. 1980 Taoe No . 446 IY.i- ; /!R . =t.IGH':' : secau .se, yQu kr.ow, the roarl goi nc into the Upper Salmon is very insi~ificant. to the whole p:oject. ~he ~portant thinqs that will have a detrL~ental effect on the envircr~en~ are the tailraces, the canals, the powerhouses. Now, Y~- Speaker, ! doubt if t!-:e engineering is done on most of the orojects .

So , will there be now, having accepted the road and realizing ~~e eang~rs that road crear.es for the. environment, bu t bavinq to live wit~ ::he roaa, ··.vill the minister indicate •,...hen she star.ds up, '"'het:be r o:: not this bill «ill apply t.o any of the othe r :najor undertakings on the Upper Salmon, t.~a building of the powerhouse, the pushing t.~::¢ugh of the canals, the tailraces, the power lines comL~g out of t~e Opper Salmon? Because ii it does net . !-'.r. speaker, then she miqht just as •.:ell not ~aste the ti.'!le of t>1e House .

I! this gover~~ent, a~d the ministe= , are prepar~C to sc~ ~ pro j ect like the Upper Salmon go ahead and be e:<empt !:.rom that leqislat~o~. t.~e~ it is an i~sult to the people of this Province , ~ . S?eake~ . It is an insu~t to anybody who believes that we should pr otecc the environment of ::his P~ov.i..nc.e 11 6 8 ....... ':,"""""(';-"'"" . ..._. ......... -

Mar-:::!1 13, 1980 Tape No. 447 IB-l MR. FLIGHT: and that we should protect the caribou herds or whatever, the total envi~onment in that area. I cannot believe that the minister , having the courage to bring in this bill and being so proud of the bill,would permit in the next four years the work that has to go ahead, the disturbances that have to take place in the Upper Salmon, power houses being built within two miles of the major calving grounds of one of the biggest caribou herds in ttis country, in this Province where every biologist who ever saw the site, where the present Minister of Forestry (Mr.

Power), ~here his officials have advised against, worried to death about what that projec~ is going to do to the wildlife in that area. The minister will have to answer, Mr. Speaker, to the 9eople of this Province, if now,having brought this bill in 1 ifshe is prepared to let that kind of a project go without having the various clauses in this act apply. Because if she does then what it means is that she is conceding that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) ,who is responsible for Hydro,is ignoring totally and completely the legislation.

And that is when I said she was being used or beinghoodwinked, because if the minister has to stand by and watch that Upper Salmon being developed and not have this . legislation apply, then there is no question, Mr. Speaker, what the Minister of Mines and Energy and Hydro have done to the minister and her legislation. Mr. Speaker, what about - I want to raise this point again - what about the harvesting techniques of the paper companies? To any new areas of harvesting, will this bill now apply?

When Bowaters or Price (Nfld.) or some logging company wants to use a given river or brook in Newfoundland now to drive timber 1 and in the process they have to bull off the banks of the river, destroy 1169

March 19, 1980 Tape No. 447 IB-2 MR. FLIGHT: the local environment, will they be subject to this act? Will they have ~o indicate to the minister in writing they intenc to do that now, that they are going to use a new river to get wood to a given point? And will the minister be setting up an assessment board or committee? Or will the general public have a right to have