VOL. l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, DECEMBER 6, 1979 NO. 45

December 6, 19i9, Tape 1649, Page 1 -- apb The Ho~se mec ac 3:00 p . m. ~lr. Speaker in t!le Chair. ~!R. S?EAl<l';R ( Si!mtS ·) : Order , please! With respect to the matter raised on Tue·sday by the hon . the :-ti.:rister of Forests, Resources and Lands ( Hr. :·lorgan) 1 J: would like c.o say, first of all, t.'lat I have no evidence of any misuse .of facilities by members of the ?ress Gallery ni:>r have I received any complaints regarding same. I would lik e co quoce paragraph 28, Beauche sne, pag.e lS: "The authoricy of t.b.e Speaker and the Bous e over t..lte Pre s s Gallery is unc e rtain .

Whil<! cechnical.:.y the Gallery is under the jurisdiction of the Rouse , in practice ic enjoys a consideral:>le degree of independenc~." This certainly i s the t:radit:ion in this :iouse,and I should like ::o point out as well to hon. members t.':at rey relationshi-p •A'ith the .Press Gallery on behalf of the House to date ~~s been ar. excellent one . SOME RON. t1Elo!BERS: Hear, hear! M:R. SPEA.J(E..'l: Nio;.h respec-::. to tile J;;<>ir.t of .?rivJ.lege raised by t..l:le hon.

Minister of ?crests, Resources and LanCs, I refer hon. membe_rs t:o 3eauchesne ·, paqes 24 - 26~ ~me!:e it clearly sets out the .?rocedure on a breach of privilege . As hon. member s are a.ware, I cannot rule on a question of privilege . ~ly :unction is limite d t:c deciding if a prima :acie case can be established. In the matter raised by the hon. minis;:er, a pri:na facie case has not been es~lished . SOME !;ON. ~!EHBERS : ~. S?E:Ala:R: and C:nergy. MR. m:iAR'l: rationing. Hear, hear! STATEME.i.'llTS aY ~!ZNISTERS The hen. the ~nister of Mi.:1es The ~tinister responsible for Mr.

Speaker, ! ~ish ! could !:'a cion the hon. member. tole have got~en ;nore c...;,an our sha .re of him 1

December 6, 1979, Tape 1649, Page 2 -- apb ~!R. BARRY: have, in the last few years. SOME HON • MEMBE."l.S : MR. NEARY: watchdog. MR. BARRY: )1R. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER(Sinuns): MR. MORGAN: MR. BARRY: and the people of this Province Hear, hear! They keep sending me back as a Gluttons for punishment. You will see that (Inaudible) Order, please! Order, please! Statements by Ministers. Ignore himi ~e is a pest. Mr.

Speaker, today I met with officials of Abitibi-Price Inc. to discuss that company's exploration programme for the Buchans are in 1980, and I wanted to make a statement on this in light of the comments that have arisen following the annual m~eting of the Buchans Action Committee. While in 1979 exploration expenditures are approximately $900,000, in 1980 expenditures on exploration should more than double to approximately $2 million. There were some encouraging results from this year's drilling progranune but further discoveries will have to be made to avoid a mine shut-down.

The more money spent on exploration the better the chance of a discovery. Accordingly 1 I welcome the increase in exploration expenditures proposed by ~,e company. I reject the criticism of the C~airman of the Buchans Action Committee that failure by Government Ministers to attend the Committee's annual meeting indicated lack of interest in keeping Buchans viable. The Resource Policy Committee of Cabinet met with the Buchans Action Committee on November 2, 1979, request, whenever they wish to meet, and all outstanding issues between the Committee and Government were thoroughly discussed.

Ta!'e No. 1650 ~R-1 ~!? .. 'P!'?.Y: Cpon receipt of notice of t.'!e ~~~~itt~~·s annual ~~etin~ 1 I ~e~uest~d the ~ai~an to inforn ~e ~·:~et::.er t!"le Col!T'li ttee ~.·:ished to :tave represer..tatives of government ~ena~Jnents present. ~o reply to this letter was received. Because the :-!ouse of AsseY"bl~t ~·ras in session, and emergency Cabinet and Caucus ~eetings set, the Premier and his Cabinet ministers were unable ~o Rtt.enC:. I aisc ,,,ant to refer to the pilot project to produce barite at Etlchans.

Frelit'1.in2r:..r ir.fo=r..ation OI! -this f'~oj~ct:. is encou!:aging anC' I "ore to :-,ave furt:C.er c'etails shortly. 7he han .. wei!'.ter for -;,rinc~sor-Euchans. ""r. Speaker, I t ... ·oulC li}~e tc have a couple of l!'ir.utes to trake a reply to the 1om:. rcinister's state!C'.ent 1 und in so ~oing I would lixe to th~~ him personally for the cecen~' any<·!ay of having sent over the stateroent so that I hac a couple of ~ ..... - s:: rrinutes to l:·eru.se it. ~tr.

S:'eaker I I r,v-oulO li!r:e to Ceal ~.;i ~~ t.:1e seconc=l ~art of the staterner".t first ·N~erein the ninister rejects t~e criticism of tl"le Chairman of the Buchans Action Committee.

I ,.,auld say to the r inister, to be fully a<·•ar~ of ·,;hat t~e people of Euchans felt, 1e ~·rould :-,.ave ::.a.C. to te present one year ago tcday i:Jr.en t:-.e ::,ot;,f Prerr.ier, th~ then ~~inister of :-~ines anC Energy 1 went to ?uc~ans and spoke at a mP.eting.The incredible ?erfo~~~ce of that rr.i.nister 1 the no~., Prer..ier! ~aving told the people of Ruch~~s that he ... ,as his own ot:an, t!".at he '.<as there to o:oen ccrnmunic2.ti ens, that obviousl? t::.ere haC Ceen r.o CO!"Ii'Uni~ations i!" S:'ite of the .:Jrese!"tce of a ::2on 1 0Qf) ~uc~ar: s Task Force .te!i:'Ort., ir. s~i.t.e of the preser.tations of t~e Jl.cticn ComiPi tte~ 1 i:t SFitc of my representation ir. t!1is =:cuse cf .?~.~seTr::ly on their te~al~, i.,:1~ now Pre£!1ier inCicateC..-cne year aero 1.- t~at the ;;roblerr nas lac~- of corr.muPications a!'C that ~e ·...rou!.C nc:i see t~at tr:.e 2uc~arts ;Jror lem t.las adCresseC anC t~at solutions ~ ... :culC =~ <1148 -

~ape ~lo . 1650 ''!t. :"!.!G!:T: i~~ed ~e~ers of ~~e Cabinec ----- ~~c t~e ?rer~er to attenc a mP.etin~ , ar.c not one ~i~ister sa~ fit ::o at ten~. ~:c-.•, :~r . Speaker, t..'le cinister can re Ject the cricicisrn. t~ac ~ot a mernl::er of the \a.J.-i:~et uneer t.'":~ circo.l!!"stances ·~as i:: 3uc~.L'"lS · :\ ;:cint of orcer, :-!r. Speake::: . A point of o~de :. ~~e ~on. ~e ?re~l.er. ~ou know, ~r.

Spea~er, the ~on . rremher !or ··:incsor - Buchans (:::.Plight) i! he is allo,re c to ?lave the latituce in res:onse to a ~inisterial State~ent cealing with explo ration act~vicy in the Such~'"l s area and reasons given !or not attencing a ateecing has expanded into ~:hat is ~ow, i! not c'el:.ate, very close to derace, ~r.

Speaker. rind naking attacks on ~e personally to respond ot.het1.1ise the thing :!oes :1ot - ~·ou kt1o-..., :1: . s~eak~r , it is just !air ball as !ar as I .llll conce r:: Pc . !or :~e ~::rait of ?clle Isle. trut.'"l spealts for itself ar.d ~e will see ·:hat is said a!:.out :~at. 2ut the ::-erbe r is sit:"!=!Y re!=l'ling to a :.t.inisteria! ~t<>terrer.t. ':he :cles

:~:o :~~ ~e~~ ~= ~eCate. - thL~~ it ~ust ~e Jef~ ~o !o~= ~or.ou~ as fac:s in any g:..-~:-. ~::Ja:.:.on. I c'o :~ot t~l: you coul(l las t'c•'n a 3011'\e par:icular ·,·ore or :om of ~1orcs .:.s ::ot reeate. ·'·•"~C I ·;o~oul c s\1!::-it, Sir, the m=ber :or :·:i:1csor :uc::ar.s (?'r . C. Flight:) has lati :uce ~~ic~ ::~~ ~ee:~ si<en to h~m by Your hOnour ar.c ey t~e r.rece~en:s of ~~is ~ouse. !'ear, hear! ·~?. E. !'O~f'1l~S : ":'he rne!'lber for r al'of 1e (~~r.

S. ''ear! ) is ~akL~ g ar. eci:o rial cerement on the s:a:ement. ~h .:.c:: is in its rea :, hea r! ••:o-. !J? !'C3F:"~S: : ~ou !f sc;~e~t,Sir,~e ~e~~er :or :aPolle ----· ~f~•ct~vely, ne has ~ade a ver1 telling c~:.er.: on it.Eut ~r.SpeaY.er - M~ . :tO'P<.i''l: (:::auMi'1e) itans.n- c' . t}150

...)ecei::be!:" E, 1979 SD - 2 .-L-:z ...... 7..0.3ER':'S: is not ventaring jnto ~he realm u£ t.lebate l:.1..1t I ~~,~auld add, speaking for those of us on t21is side 1 ~"'la t i= t:~e Prer::ier ~,;-oulcl like to debate t..'"'le r.ta tter, r..;e ;<tould be ~ite ~~~~y to co so-T.oday is a goverr.!:Ient day and all the ;ove!:'r ... '":l.E.n.t have to do is to put t.'"le a!?propriate ::totion down, we ~ ... ~ill consent to it being deb? ted today, ~ ... ;e · .. rill =:e quite :1.ap~y to debate t\-:e governr:tent's role with resFect to wh<J.t is going on i'" 3uc~ans these days. SO!'.E RON. ~!E~~FRS: ~G.

SP!'::'\...'<ER: (Sin!I!ls) Llear, . I nee.r. Wi t3 res!_Ject to the poir:t of order, tlc.e traditions and as well the referenc<;Os in '3eau~'l.esne are q·c~ite clear in that t.'l.e person responding to a ministeri.al staternent generally in vractice in this Hause at least •las about half 2llCOL.!.rage I w·o:.J.lC. ' - ' . L . .:...:::r.:::.:::.:_ . .J 1151

G, 1079 lLSl SJ - 3 :~ousa s~ayed 09en until 6:00 p.:n. so tiley =auld ~at attand. 2aar 1 hear. ~'LR. G. FLIGH'I': ':'!"la t i;; enough on that i.33Ue 1 :•!r . S2e2.ker. It is indefensible 1 inexcusai.Jle 1 t.;ere is j c:.st no j~stific~tion f8r it.

::c - 1 ~JO'N, :1r .. 3peaker, -~~itt. r~gard to t.h.e cx~l..Jration, I wou.ld s..iY to the :.·,inis~er t.:1a.t ir: :1is statement :lt: says "in 1Sl79 cxplor~tion e>:~enclitures a.re app::-oxirr.ately $900,JOO ir.. 19JO, o:::xLJ:en~i~ares on exploration sho~d ~ore t:13.n double. 11 ·.'.i~ll, I do not ~-~now i£ t~1e ~ainister is - and D.e says t:-ta t he ~·elcorJeS ~~= increase in ;::,p lorat:ion.

In the 1950s and 1960~, .;s<; • .''.CO alone ·,,·as 5pending half a ~illion dollars and t~e illini3ter talks about increa3e in exploration? : .... roiJld l~e to know ;.;hat the -:xpeiJ.ditu.re cf .l.s~~~co •,,;oulC. have been at C:'1e .levaluatec.l dollar rate back in the late 1950s and t:1z 1960s if :1e t.:1ir:ks that $1 million is a lot of mone:r to spend today.

They were 3pentlir..g a.ny~.-rhere from -?400,000 to :;600,000 :?er year a.nd the explora- cion is :lO'.rl going on in the sarne are.::is. :G. ?LlGIIT: The minister r:1ade a staten~ent a wee:..;. ago :,.;i -=~ reg arC: ~:J t~1e ~x~lora tion on ~ally- Pond. ~lo"w' there i.o.'aS a ;;;ig:1ifica.nce in Tally Pond. ;..sAB..CO .1:.1lle<.l out of Tally Pcnc! t~v~nty years ago - going to s:end ~100,000. : 1;:(. 3ARP.Y: :1r. Speaker-, is there going to Le a There is :La deba. te here I ~ 1r. s;;.)e3.ker 4 a.re::a.

Order, Please~ J.ga.i.;-~ 3.Lol.lt t>4e :.rad.i. t.i.on on the cor:~.~ents t~la!: I :7ta...ic :J.rlier. '!'~e ~Jrief ~owr.~ent:;; .J.nd., ~enerally 1 t.he ~e:::.Cer respur.uin1; i3 ~ntitled t::> .: ~ . i :.:· . ..:i. . . ~ - , ~ ~ -. ·'"---'---'··

:"!as =~sh an off - again, on - a!iai!i t!tin.g for - That is ~~e las~ hal ! o f the scat~men~ . ... t..1. - -~ • : : .. _ , .... · ··---~ _, ... _ --- ·'1154 :'::"":::

December 6, 1979 :::'ape No. 1653 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the normal standards of procedure that operate as it relates to Ministerial Statements. MR. NEARY: You are not the Speaker. ~R. SP~~R (Simms): To the point of order, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle . MR. ROBERTS : ~- Speaker, I will be very brief. Your Honour has made a ruling and I think the Premier has correctly stated it. In case Your Honour had not remembered ~~e ruling 1 it is now stated again. Your Honour directed my colleague from Windsor­ Buchans (Mr.

Flight) to bring his remarks to a close and,as I heard my han. friend,he was bringing his remarks to a close, perhaps with a degree of prolixity. But the Premier, Sir, is no stranger to prolixity, I would suggest to the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. ROBERTS: And I would suggest to my han. friend that the House's work would get ahead much quicker if my han. friend for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) be allowed to finish - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear: MR. ROBERTS: - pursuant to Your Honour's ruling which I think he was genuinely and honestly and honourably trying to observe. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: MR.

SPEAKER: Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: And not be so rudely - To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the han. I would just like to say that the matter which the han. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) is drawing out, extending, and I would say abusing the rules of this House in so 1rawing out his response to the statement, is an indication of the blatantly 1 politically partisan approach that he has had to the Buchans problem ever since I have been minister, and I have to confess - MR. MORGAN: That is right. That is right. The last three years the same thing. MR.

BARRY: - it is only since July, but I am beginning to despair, Mr. Speaker, of getting any form of co-operation 41.55

December o, 979 Tape No . 1653 NM- 2 :'ro m t:he hon . member opposite into t:he genuine att:e.ropt by t.hi s govern ment: to improve 1:.he s i 1:.u.at: ion of che people of 3uchan s. ~!..."!. . ~!ORGAN: cime . SOHE :iON. !1EMBE..~ : M."l.. Sl' E.J!..KE.q (simms ) : :!e wanes to play politics all t.he H~ar. hear : Order , please: With respect: to che point of order, I thank :ton . members for thei.r argument. Th e ;;>oint of .order raised is whether· or not the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (:-!r .

Fli.ght } has any time remaining to respo nd to the ministerial statement. r w.:.11 allow the hon . member ten seconds to clue up his remar k.s . MR. FLIGHT: 'I'he hon . member for Windsor - Suehans. :-k. Speaker, in cluing up my remarks 1 I want: co say to ~~e hon . minister ~~a~ it is not critici sm that the people .:.n Buchans feel towards this Cabinet, lt is 'isgust . SCHE fiON . ME11BERS : Hear , hear ! 000 ~!R . FLIGHT' A point of ord er, :-k . Spe~~er. .!R.

SP.::JI.:<ER (Simms ) : A point of ord er. '!'he hon . member for r,·J i ndsor - Buchans ~ My point of order , ~ r. · 5pe ake r, i s that 1 -,.ant: to raise a point of o rder based on ~lle charges of the Minist er o r !-ti.nes and ::nergy (i1r . Sar"J' ) a minute aqo in chat he said l.n effect that I '"as us i ng che 3uchans s icuation as a partisan A.N HON' • :-tEMBER : ~!.R. FLIGi :iT: He quescioned your mot ives . ~es. He ques t ioned my motive s, using the 3uc.!;ans sit::uat:ion for a partisan, political point of vie•,.,_ }!R. RIDE OUT : Wi tildraw them . :-8.. F.

LIGHT : .~d I wane ~o say to the minister , :·tr. Speake::, 'to roy point: of o rder - SO.o!.E 20N . m:MB£RS : Oh , oh : :·L'< . FLIGh"T: - I wail~ t:o say ~o :"ti:rt tha:r: if he '""ante d 1156

Jecamber o, 1979 NM- 3 :<I.R. FLIGHT: have been presenc when ~he presenc Premier made his incredible performance in auchans a year ago. That is the worse time chac ever che Buchans s1cuacion was used from a political, partisanship poin c of view. ?.nd, :-1.r. Speaker, inasfar as chat min1ster despairing - !lear, hear: l1.R. Si'~R (Si mms l : Order, please: Order, please: If the hon . member has a poinc of order, I would ask him co scate wha~ his poinc of order is . l1.R. E"LIGiiT: 11y po1nc of order ·is, Hr.

Speaker, that the ~iscer has questioned my motives wich regarc3 to my making certain con:ments w1t.h regard co c.;e 3uchans sit.uat.ion. Am: Mr. Speaker, inasfar :s c~t ~nist.er - in his point. of order he sa1d he despaired, he despaired of expecting any co-operation =rom me . Well,! can tell chat minist.er, Mr. Speaker, t.hat. he does not despair of expeccing any co-operat ion from me ::o che 4157

':'.l;;e .:o. 1634 ~t; - 1 :·L'-. G. fLIGi.'l: sa.=c ;.'oL,r. c.:\.:tt: r.:1e people of ~ucu.ans and Cen coral :-le•.;foundland have cor-e

U) t:eSJ:;alr o: ~ver receivin<; ar.y co - ~;::e ration from ;,im an.: :us ·:~c., respect: t:o t:1e ;:o i:1 c. o! orcer r~sed,I co :1ot ~elieve I really :1eed r.o hear any othe r arg~C:lt~ I t elieve it: l..> c learl y !l cif!erence of ot=inion ber:...-een t:'-"0 :1on . l".enhers. CRAL ,.UE:STICNS ;.;R. S?E:;.x;;:R: 7ne i1on. Leace r of tile O;:pos i uon. : IR. 0 . Jri:lli~O:~ : :!r .

S,?eaker, !: have a t;uestion !:cr toe :!J.r.J.sr.er of >lsi".e ries (::r. :~ c(;ra:;.,) a.,d oy t.,e ?rir..e :tin~ster of c.:u.naca. me Rt . !ion . :-:r. t lar'"J'"hic:t !.n e£fecr. ::eturned cue c;aun t let:, i!" ~·ou ·.,is,, , ~.i t::l rega::C: to t:1e scar.~n'ent of tne 11on. ::ne l're:-.ier, had it. in any ·. ay .:e•:founcl.a.~ ... on :ues~ay ? :n ot:.ner ·..-orcs. is t:he sic:uar.:. on d.,Y c!.;.ff~::e:1 ::. ?:errier. uncer <;uestiOnlll<; by ot:her members, I guess il!Ostly from the OpposicJ.on on :.:-:e ::a~-:er 1 a ::t.:.:.-e: o:: 3~a.Ct!r.t!:':t.3 ~A>e.:-a :-• aC.~ by t;.~e Fe~e~l ' .<l.::i~t.e; a-:;1 ·. ay ~~:nanc;e<.! t:.,e resol·n , o: :;.·as ;cver:1rrect: ::o :r.o~ .,.: ....... aggressively ;:ir.J.5c.a:: a:-.c t;."'o:~ ;;ao;;le cf che <rovl.nce ~~c. o:: Car.acia c; ~neral!/ 1 thac; cu: -=a~e -~ a. sou..,ci ar.d a ~ea3ona.:.1\! cne :.nC one ·.,·:ti~ "-"'~u :.:lee~~ :c t.1158

,._ supplerrentary, :-tr. ::.,:. e~er. ,._ s~ple::-.entari·, the l:on . the Leader of d-:c '-'~po sition. 6iven thar: :,JOsition, . tr . Speake :-., a..~ci I can ·.mcerst:anc ~:.r.at t:he .-reu.ier woulc obviousl/ net :;.:c what I :r.i',;::-c: descril::e as -.:it~c!raw~ 9 r retre .at on •.vhac vas saie! in Oi:caw a ~e<.te rc ay 1 'olhat are the nexc stef>S ~o be? Is tnere a.'ly avenue :-.UnfJ explo,reci?

Has u.ytocy sugses-.ed ei t:.."ler f rom t:..-:.:.s :>J.cle, ::-.eani:tg ;.;e·,.-:ound­ la.~C;cr !:orr. b-ccav.;a c;·tac there oe a raopeni:tg of Ciscuss icns or :1ave ,,., in fact reached a: stele:nace for al~ practical pur;?oses ;iven 1 ·the s ~at~ !l'er.ts c."! at were nace bot!! :1ere anc l.:t ..>ttawa ? 1'ne ~on. the ?relf.ier. ~iell, n: . :pea..~e r, we are ? rese.ntly, ·;a..: ina:: a,..,.; a number l f Ot..'ler peo,:le ·,;oho are tal;..:i:.g to ='~ . ·..,e are !t :.~ r:ot: a st:.ale!::a:: e L"'l ~ :'le sense o .f C.J.:sct.:ss.:.ons a:e.O ongo .:.::g r:e~oci - a~ions on t ... is ;:oint .

Jl.nC ~,e econorr.,ic conferen;:e -c_.;at: is corr.inq \!? veri shon:l' is going to ;:roviee u.s ···i:::l .m a ddi tional o;;:_;:)ortur.it:,; coc;,. :o talk co ~:te Fri:ue :'ii:u.sce r p:-ivatel y ~C co scr:\C of :l'le : .. e't;fcunt.!lan.J .·Unis~ers as ,,.;eil as t .le oc:1e~ rrlr.is::ers on t..'u.s ~at~: -:- .. I t ~ust say I am ::!!!lost iorceo to say chat : really cio :~oc ll.:<e ~o e;.:t in co cae nur.ll:.e.::s

December 6, 1979 Tape 1655 PK - l Premier Peckford: Minister of Fisheries and Oceans (Mr. McGrath) comment as it relates to the 92 per cent or the 90 per cent of the fish caught when one gets into figures again, which we do not '"ant to get into because it is a matter of principle, 56 per cent of the fish, so-called Northern cod 1 went inshore in 1979. And that is a disasterous figure, only 56 per cent went inshore. And the kernel of the policy of the Government of Newfoundland is inshore at least 85 per cent, that is minimum.

In the first instance all the fish inshore, and if it can be demonstrated scientifically, irrefutable evidence,that there is some so-called surplus, then we look at it, and we do not think that that exists at the present time. MR. JAMIESON: A supplementary. 1-'.R. SPEAKER (SIMMS): A supplementary, the hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: I thank the Premier for his answer.

When he talked on Tuesday about using all of the weapons at the disposal of Newfoundland vis-a-vis Mainland companies, one of the questions I would like to ask in that regard is that since it has been the policy of the Government of Canada, and it was referred to in a different context though it is still confirmed, that they will consult on foreign investment review applications and also on DREE incentive grants, is it conceivable to the Premier that in fact the Government of Newfoundland would withhold its consent or its recommendation for approval for DREE grants '"ith regard to fish plants being established in Newfoundland?

And I ask it not in a theoretical way, because I understand that if there are not some now before the Government of Canada, there may well be in the near future. And I think this is quite an important issue at this present time. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I appreciate the question, Mr. Speaker. In the ensuing days and weeks 1ve intend to sit down with the companies that are doing business in Newfoundland and explain our position fully and responsibly and all the rest of it, and also with the federal Government and the Federal authorities .

We hope, of course, that after those immediate discussions have been held t hat there will not be any 41€0

~ec~er 6, 1979 Tape 1655 ?!< - 2 ?~emier ?eck!ord: necessity for us co r.ake tha-c kind of action.

Of course,ehat is another lever really that is at our dis?Qsal; we will no-c use any levers only in a very responsible fashion . aut: we are scrong in our vi ew about: ~~s whole ~estion of ~and companies doing ~siness here, who, you know, ae the same tJ.me ..,ant co do otiler t:llings L"l ot:her places, and perhaps Jeopardize our L,shore !ishery 1.n c.'le earc;ain. .\nd so, eherefo r e, we are going t:o be tough. aut in ;:he fust inst:ance, cur sore of plan of approach on ~IJ.is is to sit down with the companies and with che federal authorities , If, in fact, over t.he next month or so, there is still, if yoli will. a stalemate in ehe aims and obJecti ves as we preceive chem by the companies and ourselves, then those additional levers could very well be used.

MR. JA.'UESON : MR . S1?EAK:£R (SII-11-'.S) : OpposJ.tion. MR. JA>'liESOI'I : A final supple~eneary. A final supplement:ary, the bon. Leader of the ay ·-1ay of ~.:a:eamble, if the Spea ker •-1ill permit, I men-cioned chat this was not hypot:he-cical , I have been advised pr1.vat:ely that. 1.ndeed there are some operations presently be4ng comtemplated by )1ainland companies ar.d ;;hat these may now be L, a sense in a sl:ate of suspens1.on.

Perhaps I could put. my quesuon t:o the Premier directly by saying that. l.S ic in !ace che case t!-.ac un1:il or unless ::his impasse or this stalemate is broken , tha1: if ;here is a ORE£ application, for l..,s-cance, presently pending - I am trying co get a-c wha-c po4n1: the Governmen1: of 11 51

'rape No. 1656 AH-1 ~1R. J."lHESON: " Y-=•.-·fm.:ndland says, we are going to >Ti thhold our arprcvar• and therefore put ~~e onus en t~e federal government tc decide whether they are going to agree r..ri th it or not? I am sure the Premier unCerstanCs rry question. I hope I have r-ace it clear. PP!'~·!IEP P!:CKFC?D: I ~ fully aware cf the applications outstandi~c in t~e intentions,_ ve~J current,cf certain companies tc Co certain t..,ir:9's in variou.=: coastal cof.:lmuni ties arounC. the Province. I ~r very, very aware of it. And al!.

I can say tc the Leader of the Or-T:"ositicn right r-m·; is give him a general answer to the cuesticn 1 =ecause in the first instance 'V'e '>72.nt to sit Co~m ,,ri th ~'-le com?ani~s .i.:t~JolveC 2nd Ciscuss with them ar..C go over ~ .. it.:.'1. ~-~ei!' t.oJ~"tat our ccr~cerns are and >~e ••ant tc see 1-rhat their reaction ~s.

I uncerstand ~~ere are ll'eetings unc'er,.,ay al::-eady internally in these coi!'ranies ana tc1ey Hill h~ sitting down ui th us very, very sho:!::tly and it is only after that rcint in ti~e t.:.~at I r.-JoulC. !Je sa~eHhat more s:_:~ecific, until I s-ot e. tetter fe~l for the inter-relationships !:etween us no,.; as a result of yes~erCay•s state~ent. ·~p .EODDF:ll: 71 su;oplernenta~J, '·'r. Sreaker. A suprl e.'llentary. ""'e '1on. mPm."?er for Port au Port follcv1ea ty the hen. mei'll:-er cor LaPoile. ~~:. RIJDDF'~; ----- ~,e Prernier 1 5 ~ention of sanctions. Ps a r~sult of the su~pl~~enta~J, •.1her.

I list'=r.eC to the state'rr!ent that ~e 1:1.are the ot":-ter Cay, I 'Nn.s a little ·<orriecl. F-:Jr instance 1 in the cistrict of Fort au Port one cf tr..F.! corrponies mentioned ~as a mar~inally - I do not thi:Ik it is even a ~rofi ta~le operatior ··'1ich gives about 2~C jot--s in the 8UJ11Mertime And when ~'1e Premier mentions the fact that if negotiations do not ~~at- anc it ~s a great concern of ll'ine- ~~at operations of ~'1at nature ··1'-lich ~Tr''£'l]oy ?EO;'!le in some of the rural areas of tte Province rray 'Je jeo!;larCize~ as ·dell?

Ta;:e !':o. lE:S6 The hor.. t~e ?remie~. I azr aware o: ···ha~ c....,-: !:on. :r.err.ter is indicaci~g and I can assure ~~e ~on. :a~be~ c~at we will be t~ing :o all ~~e co~ar.ics in9olvec and assess~ng eac~ one on its own =e:::. ts , i: ~ou ·.dll, in c..."te various pa..~s of t.he ?::cvu:ce. ! am aware of ... hat t!•a :-ton. ll'e!'ll~e :: is talking about exactly as it relates ':o his c-.:n ar'!a. ! !lave heen in t~at area anc know t.'le kine of cre::ations :~at he is ~~ing ~o~t .

In ~he first ins~ance i~ is govern~nt's i:v;ention to proce'!c · . .rith talkbg to the companies firsc anc ceveloping ~t f:orn t.'lere rat.'ler than a."".;' other ~oray of coing i;.. : :r . .i.:'lk l:. ···:.! 1 ~e irr;;ortant qet a fe-:1 :or j~.:s~ ~Ot·• so:r.P. of tr.ese companies , so- called :~a.inland, a.'td hO\~ they r.~rceive :±e!llsel•Jes i:l light of our statemen t a:tc to :!e'<'elop rules a.'"!d ::eg~;latio ns ar.d a !?l.an of ;lrocet'ure fr=. ~~e:e. ;.. ne" question. ~e hen. rrelllber for =·!::. s::ea.!:er, cy <;uestion is :or tJo.e "inist~!': o-f ~ransportaei on anC Co~ur.ications. !n t;ie\·' of -:he ::ul1'::er of fa~ali';!es anc accit:!ents t.l-Jat are tal-:'.:'1<; olace en c...'le ~ac:: ':"'at a s•Jhstantial nUJI\!)er of ::."'ese accic ent s invel •re ~a.inla.nd o:z-ac:or ttaile:-s,·..:oulC. the ~on. mi:1iste:- :e!l :.."'"e ..,ouse !.~ ~. e "..:as ~a,...9 a s~c.Cy of ~'1e si~uation ~o Ce te'!'tT'ir~ ...:!":19t!'".e7 ? r ~c~ ~':c -:rac~o~ t::ail'!rs a::c; 11 :~al =:azar r' on the Trens -r.r.na<!a F.i~h wa: :me '4hat ·1163

December 6, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (S~mms): Collll!lunications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, approximately. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. BRETT: Tape No. 1657 NM - 1 The hon. Minister of Transportation and Forty-odd million dollars worth of action, (Inaudible). Nq, the hon. member asked me what action has been taken to cut down on accidents on the Trans-Canada Highway. MR. JAMIESON: MR. BRETT: I am sorry. I am sorrt, my fault.

I said, 'Forty-odd million dollars worth.' I guess it is safe to assume that a tractor trailer on a highway takes up more room and probably somebody approaching one would have to exercise a little bit more caution. To reiterate what I saidlthere are forty-odd million dollars worth of improvements made in the Trans-Canada Highway on the last two years. Most of the highway has been rebuilt. There are now holding lanes which were not there before and I would like to think that this improvement, this adding the third lane, would make it much safer for tractor trailers. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. One of the accidents involving one of my constituents was a part of that $40 million that the hon. gentleman mentioned, where they were upgrading the highway. One of my constituents was killed by a Mainland tractor trailer. And the hon. gentleman need not try to shrug it off by playing political games with us. This is a very serious matter.

I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he has taken any action to have Mainland tractor trailers, the drivers, the tractor trailers stopped in Port aux Basques when they come off the ferry to see if the drivers have had their proper rest or if they had been ~rinking, or if they are high on drugs coming off the ferry? The tractor trailers, as ~ understand it, can come in here, drive off the ferr y and they are never

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1657 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: ever checked. I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he has ever looked into that matter. ~hat is pretty serious, and the people, especially West of Corner Brook, know how serious and what a hazard these tractor trailers are on the highway. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communiciations. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, we have a very competent force, known as the RCMP,in the Province and I would assume that they are doing a very good job in that respect. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I am glad the hen. gentleman raised that matter because that was my next question, Sir. As members know, these tractor trailers have the radices - what do they call them? AN HON. MEMBER: :.!R. NEARY: CBs. CBs, they have the CBs. And they call ahead to each other and tell them where the RCMP are, if they are indeed on the highway. And I would submit to the hon. member that the RCMP are non-existent as far as these tractor trailers are concerned. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible) you must spend all your time watching BJ and the Bear (inaudible) .

SOME HON. MEMBERS: !Y'.R. NEARY: Hear, hear~ It is really, really, very funny. The hon. school boy debater thinks the people getting killed on the Trans-Canada is really really funny, and the accidents. So I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he is aware of the fact that the tractor trailers, through these radios communicating to one another, calLing ahead, practically make the RC~ non-existent on the Trans-Canada Highway, and what is the hon. ·1165

Decembe~ 6, 1979 MR. • NE.l!,RY : MR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Communications . MR. BRETT: Tape No. 1657 gentleman going to do about that? The hon. Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that NM- 3 the hon. member direct his question to the appropriate department, the federal government, since they licence these CB radios or whatever they are called. I acknowledge the fact

Dece~~er 6, 1979 Tape 1658 EC - l :·!R. Br:ETT: that this is happening. It is not only happening in ~ewfounaland, it is happening all over Canada, all over t.'le United States, and I do not think there is very much that I, as the 11inister of Transportation and Communications in c<ewfoundland 1 c.:1z:. e10 about it. MR. SPEA.XER: (Simms) The han. t.'le member for the Strait of 3elle Isle. :.rn. ROBERTS : ~lr. Speaker, thank you. A question, i:: I :night, to t..~e Acting i·1inister of Fisheries.

He will recall that he wrote me three or four days ago, bot.'"! directly and t.'J.rough the agency of his deputy minister, 11r. Slade, to say t.'lat nis department ''a'- approved ~"le proposal by t.'le Nickerson group - I think they are acting t.'".!:·::>Llgh tne agency of anrl in t."le name of the T. J.

Hardy firm in Port aux Basques, and I believe they have an ownership interest in t.~e Hardy firm - but he will recall that he told me that insofar as it was ·,,it.'lin the gover::~ment of the Province's power so to do, t.'ley had given permisc;ion to t.'le Nickerson group to go ~lead with t.~e proposal to develop a verz large fish plant at St. Barbe. ~~d I mignt ada, as the minister ~aula agree, t.'J.at is something t.1at is devoutly to be wished ~Y people in that area. I might also add, as t:;e minister will concur, t.'J.at the fish to go into t.C.at plane in 2ar1: ·.<ill :1ave to come from offshore.

Part .,.ill come from wi t.'lin the area, yo~:. know, going into presently existing plants. ~Y question, Sir, is quite simrly this, Could t:1e minister tell us where tha·: application now stands insofar as it is 'Hi tnin t:r1e Province's purview 1 where it now star.ds given t...1e situation disclosed by t.'le Premier in his statement here in the Eouse on ruesday, •.;hich !1as :Oeen, of course, commented upon subsequently? The ~inister of Fisheries (Acting) . :·!R. GuUDI:=:: :1r. Speaker, no, I am sorry.

I cannot tsll the ~orr. ~eMber where ~~at 2articular application stands. ;~ ~,e ?re~ier .>.as ir1C.icated, t..~ere are some ongoing meetings 'Nit.:,. various interest groups a.t this point in time, in addition to t_,e review grccess on t.1e ~oans ~oo.rC. ar:.d ':~'"'.is ~:.inC of ~:.ing. So t:'1e '·"~ole ar-?2. is bei:1q looked at.. r}16'7

December a, 1979 Tape 1658 i::C - 2 ~!P.. GOUDIE: I can, however, if the hon. member wishes, get ~~e information for him specifically and write him privately, or present it in ~~e House, depending. MR. ROBERTS : HR. SPE;;J(ER: (Simms) for the Strait of Belle Isle. :.1R. ROBERTS : ~1r. Speaker, a supplementarJ. A supplementary, the hon. the member Thank you, Your Honour. I would be grateful if the minister would, and I will leave it to him whether he •,;ishes to say something publicly or \vhether he wishes simply to ·write to me.

But I wonder if he could ~~ll us whether tr.ere is any possibility, or perhaps I could use the word ,;.1ether there is any 1 danger 1 ~"lat ~'le government of the Province might withdraw ~"le permission which they have given - they have given permission, I have it from the rr~nister and I accept it as such - whether there is a danger that ~"le government migi1t withdraw ~'le permission ~'ley have given to go ahead wi~"l this project, which,I might say 1 was prepared to go ahead except that DRZE, on the advice, I understand, of ~"le federal fisheries stopped it.

But now, given the ~st recent situation to develop, as outlined by the Premier the o~1er day, is tl1ere a possibility ~"-e government might withdraw its permission and thus, the Province, for its part, tr; to stop ~~at project: :·IR. SPEAKER: The hon. the :linister of Fisheries (acting). :-tP.. GOuDIE: ~\t th.is point in time, 1-lr .. Speaker, I really cannot provide a definitive answer to that particular question, but I will discuss it a little bit further, ferhaps, wi~~ the Premier and see what comes out of ~~at. '11€8

December 6, 1979, Tape 1659, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAXER(Simms): The hon. the member for St. Barbe followed by the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Acting Minister of Fisheries. While I realize it is a federal regulation governing the lobster fishery around the Province I also feel it touches on the human element of the whole Province,. the regulation governing lobsters for the upcoming season. I have many, many letters from my district and, indeed, other areas showing grave concern about the upcoming season, in the Spring.

At this time people are preparing for the Spring lobster season. They are asking the question and I have to echo the question for them. They are wondering, Mr. Speaker, if government, federal,that is, are indeed destroying people in the rural districts of Newfoundland in their efforts to save the lobster fishery. I have a letter here that can be tabled. Some of the things - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: If the hon. member has a question,I would direct him to ask the question. MR. BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Acting Minister of Fisheries.

Does the acting minister have a line of communication with his federal counterpartin the effort to soften the blow inflicted by the new federal regulation on lobster licencing? Have you consulted with your federal counterpart and do you agree? - number one. Number two, is any effort being made to compensate fishermen for their loss in surplus inventory? Number three, is there an effort being made to include the newly created unemployed fishermen in the work force? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The hon. member has obviously asked three questions there in one. Does the hon. the minister wish to respond? MR.

GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, if I can answer one part of the question, there is still a line of communication between ·'11.£9

Jece~er 6, 1979 , Tape 1659, ?aqe 2 -- apb ~!R. C.OUDIE: this Province and the federal governmenc in relation to fisheries mac~ers. It may be somewhat cloude d ac the moment,but the line of communication is there. What I would pre£er co do , i! t:!le hon . member woulc ac;ree, i s co meet with nim privately following Question Period and get the details as he outlined there a.nd provide a more satisfac~ory ans we.r, perhaps privately, or !or the House, whichever he prefers. ~1R. NEARY: In the House . It was asked in the Rouse. ~. S?EAKER(Simmsl : The hon . ~~e member for Windsor-Buchans. ~. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the hon . the Pre:nier. In view of the fact t.llat nei t:her he nor a Cabinet miniscer •,o~as present at the meeting in Buchans to explain t.~ e government 's positi on on the Buchans - Southwest Brook road , •li70

December 6, 1979 Tape 1660 PK - l :-Jr. Flight: and in view of the apparent contradiction that has been taking place between himself and his Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett)- about a month ago the Minister of Transportation and Communications in a meeting with the Action Committee stated that the Buchans-Burgeo-Southwest Brook Road was not a priority 1 that they were looking at the Buchans-Howley Road, and they would do a cost analysis.

A month later - the minister said that publicly, in case he forgets - about a month later the Premier on the West Coast in Stephenville in an interview with CBC indicated that the Buchans­ Southwest Road was indeed a priority 1 that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear ! ,'!R. FLIGHT: - one day it would be the second Trans-Canada- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: He did say that. MR.

FLIGHT: - that anyone moving goods across this Province would obviously want to use a shorter route and that would obviously be the Buchans- Burgee--Southwest Brook Road, and that it would obviously get priority on the DREE shopping list. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! If the hon. member has a question,! would direct him to ask his question. MR. FLIGHT: In view of that, Mr.

Speaker, performance by the Minister of Transportation and Communications, and in view of the Premier's comments re that road, and he knows how much that road means to Central Newfoundland in general, and Buchans in particular, would he indicate his government's position, today's position 1 with regard to Buchans-Burgeo-southwest Brook Road? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFOR,D: It is a very excellent question, Mr.

Speaker, anc. will take a long while to answer, and I wi.:.l over the next number of days,with the ~in ister of Transportation and Communications and L, our overall programme of transportation around the Province will be letting the hon. member know and this House know just exactly how we intend to 1171

December 6, 1979 Tape 1660 PK - 2 Premier ?eckford: proceed on transportation matters Nhich L~pact upon Buchans and the west Coast as other parts of the Province as well. And I thank the hon. member for his question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): A su?plementary, the hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: I will direct the question to the minister, but it would probably be better answered by the Minister of Transportation, in view of the headlines in The Daily News todai.

And I am wondering why it was that if there was indeed a $40 million surplus in capital monies left in Transportation last year while the minister and Cabinet was holding out the hope to the people of Buchans that some work would be done on that road 1 why was it not that some of that $40 million surplus was not spent in extending the contract, the three and a half mile contract that is presently being finished by Chalk Contruction on that particular road? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! MR.

FLIGHT: Why was not some of that $40 million spent there instead of being left in Ottawa where it will serve no purpose at this poin>:? MR. SPEAKER: MR. BRETT: The hon. Minister for Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to answer that question, because there is some misunderstanding probably as a result of the headline. There was not $40 million left over in Transportation and communications funds. That ~40 million was not in this year's Budget, these funds were not committed. They will be coming from Ottawa in the next fiscal year. Not actually left over.

The funds are not in the Province. They will becoming next year. So t h ere is no money l eft over. There is no such a thing. This is~flll'!ds that have been committed by the Federal Government through DREE and through TCH which will be forthcoming next year and be spent next year. 1172

December 6, 1979 Tape 1660 PK- 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: A fiz~l supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : A final supplementary, the han. member for Windsor-Buchans, followed by the han. member for Eagle River. (Mr. Hiscock) . MR. FLIGHT: To the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett), Mr.

Speaker~ In view of the fact that the Province funded and built about five miles of that particular road about six years ago, and then had a six year gap, and this year did another three and a half miles 7 can the minister indicate to the House when the next contract will be called on that particular end of the Buchans-Southwest Brook Road? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister for Transportation and Conmunica tions. MR. BRETT: The Premier has already indicated, Mr. Speaker, that we will be in touch with the hon. member when we decide exactly what - MR. FLIGHT: MR. BRETT: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

HISCOCK: Eight miles in over six years. - route that road is going to take. The hen. member for Eagle River. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications.It was bought up in this House about two weeks ago; I also brought it up earlier this week with regard to the ferry across the Straits of Belle Isle. In a statement today made by Mr.

Puddister who runs the Northern Cruiser he ended up saying that it will be closed down December 11, and the reason why it will close down December 11 instean of December 15 basically is because of the early season , that it operated this year it opened . Has the Minister of Transportation and C~mmunications received any correspondence from Mr. Mazankowski on this matter? And basically <·That is the result of this communication? r-<R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister for Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: I was in touch with Mr. Mazankowski by telephone, Mr. Speaker.

U nfort~tely a decision has been made not to extend the ferry beyond the deadline as indicated in the paper. I •1173

~ecember G, 1979 Tape 1&60 !?l< - 4 :tr . 3ret:t:: :un just as much disappoint:ed over this decision liS che hon . memb.er is . I think again it: i s a mat::er of dollars and cents. The subsidy f:om now on will be somethi~g 4n a~cess of S400 -and • som~odd per person. I guess I can do no more tl>.an aslc, Mr. Speaker, but: t;hey hllve indicated that they will not: be extending t.'le dead.line . SOME iiON. 11El1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. al:SCOC!<: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ·11? 1

Decernoer 6, 1979 AR. SPEAKER: (Simms) for Eagle River. ~tR. HISCOCK: Tape 1661 EC - l A supplementary, the han. the member With regard to the ferry across the Strait of Belle Isle, where it was serviced by CN before, at least wi~~ C:N they could get the service up to the end or the beginning of January. I would like to ask the question, Is this a matter of priority when the Minister of Transportation arid Communications (:'tr. Brett) goes to see :1r.

Mazankowski {n his second meeting? - because in his first meeting I believe he was quoted in The Evening Telegram as saying that with regard to ferry service in Newfoundland, tl}at topic was not brought up because basically we have an excellent ferry service in Newfoundland and Labrador. Is this going to be a priority to get ~at extended again for next year or in the future< HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Ferry services all over the Province, ~r. Speaker, are very much a priority with this government.

In another two or t.'lree years - I am not sure how long - '"e are going to have to take over ~'1e total cost of the ferry system in tne Province, thanks to the previous LiDeral administration in Ottawa, so it is very high priority and '"e are going to i"lave to come up with some policy. So t.'le ferry across the Strait of Selle Isle has high priority as do all ferries in the Province. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. MR. SPi::AKER: A final supplementary, the :01on. t...~e member for Eagle River. :-!R.

HISCOCK: Is the Minister of Transportation and Communications aware that ~~is is the only physical link that Labrador has ·.d ~'1 Newfoundland? And has he also informed Mr. 11azankowski of ~f:le frustration t.'le people in Labrador have wi~l regard to trying to communicate back and fort:'1 to the Islanci? 11175

~ecember 6 1 1979 Tape 1661 EC - 2 ~!R. NEARY: i1r. Speaker 1 my question is for t;,e ~linister of Labour and Manpower (i1r. Dinn) 1 Sir. Vloul<i the han. gentleman tell the House wny ne found it necessary to blas~ the Steelworkers president in Wabush over an issue that they were fighting, t.'lat they were quite justified in going public on? Maybe I should direct it to the Premier. What does the Premier think of his minister attacking the president of the Steelworkers in 1'/abush who is fighting for t.'le rights of the employees of the l'labush i1ining Company? ~-!R.

SPEAKER: (Simms) ?REMIER PECKFORD: The non. the Premier. The Minister of Labour and Manpower is quite capable of looking after himself and in answering t.'le questions along t.'lose lines that the han. :ner.lber would like to put. ~1R.. FLIGHT: ~-!r. Speaker, a supplementary. i-IR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the meiT.ber for Nindsor - Bucnans. :•IR. FLIGHT: ~!r. Speaker, I would like to ask t.'le Premier wha~ ne thinks of his minister criticizing the chairman of the Action committee in 3uchans 1 along t.'le same line i' MR. SPEAAER: The han. ~1e Premier. MR.

MORGA.'\1: Boy, ~<hat a waste of time~ PRE1-!IER PECKFORD: It is quite unfortuna~e, as the :1inister of Lands and Forests (:.tr. i1organ) is pointing out, that t.'le members of t.'le Opposition canna~ find - there are so many critical issues on wc~ch there nee cis to be some de:.:> ate and questions and answers in t:i1is hen. O.ollSe 1 and to ti1ink that we have to waste the time of all members on t.'>is very silly, foolisn kind of questioning is unbelievable, i1r. St>eaker. :1!<.. SPEAKER: SOHE EON ~ !-fE:•lBEPS: Order, please! The tirile for Oral r_duestions has expired. on, oh!

I •.·muld like to \1elco~ ~o t.1e gall.,ry today, on :::enalf of all han. members, ~!r. :<oah Genge and several members of tne Anchor Paint community cou:1cil. near, hear~ ·1176

7a?e 1661 E.C - 3 i would also l:.ke to welcome co =."\e gallc:-ies t:..'l!s a!t:er:'loon, seve:t::ee~ s;;ucencs o! c.:,e ."ewfoundlar.d '!ou;;n F.os ::e ls ?.ssoCl.a tion :rom :;.':e James Cook ~!emorial Schoo 1, Cook 's Harbour. ':hey are accom;>a."lie:i !:>y :.;.~ir ::eec::er, ::: . .<c:'lcall , 3.."\C t!:.e co-ordina::.c.r, :·!iss Sheila Fi t:.zpat=ic.'<. SO:-!£ i:ON. ;.i::-~IBERS : Hear, hear ~ ~!P. . Sl?E~: And ! wish to · .. elcome to :he galleries on ::>ehalf o f all hon . me:nbers, the ~!ayor of c.'le town of \>lindso r, ~tr . Clarenc e King , a.'ld also '"'elcome · ~ :or.uer :nelllber of t~is hon .

Ho:JSe anc for~r Cabine t mL"\ister , Mr. Clyde Wells . SOI·!E HO.~ . $I·IBERS : de a=, hear! P?.ESE:>I'!'lilG :!E?Oa:I'S 3Y STA:ID:i:NG ;...'ID SP!::c:A:. CONI1I~S T!le hon . the ~ister o:: Rural, Thar-~ you , )olr. Speaker. ;: ·•oulci lii<e ::o -:IJ!)le r.."\e ::.nanc::.al Jevelop~ent ~an 3oarc Eor che ~i:'lancial yea r, April 1, 1978 co :·tarc."' 3!, 1979 . :~ay ! also cake c.'ll.S op!)Or::un:. c:r t.o welcome on 1::ehal f of hon . members, anor..-.er :ormer member of c."'is non . House, :-tr. :tii<e !1artin, who is in c!:e galleries tocay .

Hear, near : : have also bee:'! requested - ~"\ci ! aa :'lappy ::o co so on be.iJal .:: o .:: ll.l :ton . :ooml;ers - ::o extend a ·oo~e!cotr.e to ~~""le exec-~~J.·:e of ":.!le ~sociatior: o: :-1u:1~:::l.?al .l.cL-u.~J.st=a~ors, ;.~r.o a:e 1.:1 :..~e .;alle ~ies ::cCa:;. ·1177

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1662 NM - 1 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I 1muld just like to respond to the question put to me yesterday by the bon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) as related to the information flow on subsidies and whether in fact 1 because the information had not been out to some fishermen,would they therefore be penalized in not knowing just the same as those would be who did know and so on?

I have checked this out with officials of the Department of Fisheries and we are very aware of the problem dnd the fisheries officers in the respective areas, representing the Department of Fisheries are trying to do it sort of on an individual basis and are conscious of it and will take the necessary action to ensure that nobody is penalized as a result of not having the information at their disposal at the time.

We are trying to handle it on an individual basis and the thing for fishermen to do in the respective areas, and if hen. members get calls is to try to direct them to the local representative who will then investigate and make a report and payment or otherwise would be forthcoming. So we are on top of it and we will do what we can to assist. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The h an. member for Eagle River . MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Pinsent Arm, Labrador.

The prayer of the petition is that, "We, the undersigned, petition the Department of Mines and Energy and Resource= for a transmission line from Charlottetown to Pinsent Arm." I would like to draw to the attention of this House that Pinsent Arm i s also a permanent communit y that has no diesel generator but p rivate generat o rs t hemselves. Also, it is one of the most expanding communities on that part of the coast becoming a collecting agency for Fishery Products. In actual fact, ·117S

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1662 NM - 2 :1R. HISCOCK: this community now is becoming basically the focal point for that area for collecting for Fishery Products so much that Canada Works projects are giving an extension to the wharf there this year totally something like $50,000. :1R. BARRY: MR. HISCOCK: this petition. MR. BARRY: MR. HISCOCK: How many permanent residents are there? Permanent - 31 adult residents have signed How many customers? Customers would be at least, would be twelve to thirteen permanent houses as well as "schools in that area. MR.

BARRY: The condition is that there be sixteen customers in order to qualify for service. MR. HISCOCK: I would like to bring that to the attention of this House whether it be a condition of Newfoundland Hydro power in this Island to say that the condition is that we must have 16 or 300 or 400 families. I would like to bring to the attention of this House that the reason why we have Labrador is because of the people from the South Coast of Labrador and the reason why we have the Churchill Falls and lower development as well as Kitts-Michelin, and as well as other development.

To be able to turn around and say to the people in Pinsent Arm that the people are permanent residents, that they cannot have this for some mere technicality is the reason why I am presenting this. They are quite aware of the technicality that Newfoundland Hydro has I am begging a petition from this House that we waiver this regulation and give the people of Pinsent Arm, who are bringing new dollars into this Province, and basically give the1o the right that they deserve from other parts of the area. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile . /1179

Oeceober 6, 1379 Tape No. 1662 Nl>l - 3 ~!R . NEARY: ~~. Speaker, it gives me greac pleasure to speak to the pe~eion so ably presenced in this House by my hon . colleague, che member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). The hon . member made a very scrong p:ea and a scron<; cas e :or ~ewfoundland !:!ycrro to :nove in chere and ;;o <;1.ve these people elec=icity. T!\ey are now using private diesel generacors whic~ muse be cremendously expensive to the individua l homeowner . The key to what my hon . friend said in presenting his case is that this is a growing community . Mr.

Speaker, you know, over the years, being 1n public li=e, I am have encountered ::his situation on a number of occasions . Down in Cape Ray in my own dist.rl.Ct, I had an ongoing battie with Newfoundla.,d !.ic;hc and ?ower Company for several years , trylng co get them to run a line into c.•"'o homes that were there, and chey kepc arguing :: .. .''!at t:.':lere is not - they '"anted $12,000 from these t wo homeowners anc :I kept telling them, "Look , puc your lin.e in there and t:.his area •Jill grow. 'lou will qet more houses there than you dreamed of .

" So, evenc.ually , they caved 1.n and ::hey puc. in che 1.:-ne and now t!'le area i s growing. And the same th:.ng ln - AN !iON. ~'IBER: !·!.~ . NEARY: ~our houses have been built chis year. That is righc, :our new houses builc ·1180

5i) - l Hr . S?ea;.;er 1 ! woulU s:.C:a.i: ehat. elec :zicity !.:1 r .. her e.. ThJ.s, obvio:.:sl7, is <;obg co !::e a 1.1p a~C o!.l C.r illi:t<3 ,,..·!..:.h th..!._s crow-d, they Uo :)0~ s-eer:t to !:e very ser:.siti·.te Is it - MR. t: . ROBERTS: When it was excenced ~o (inaudible i and 5c . Carol's ic han co be :ifteen . ·1181

~ece~er 6, 1979 Tape :!a. 166 3 SD - 2 ~·1R. L. 3AR..~Y: now in this Province \•There we have close to 180 ~er cent electrification which is, obviously, a very laudable goal. It is not even so nuch the initial capital cost of .:..n.stalling generating facilities in the :ev-.· co!!lmu...'1ities that are still belo•,..r the ::ifte·en custoner lev·el 1 but :.r..e r::~..!estio:! ~ ~·.rill J.ndcr ta~E:, .. :r.

Sr,:ea~er, ~o r~: .• o.i.. still ·,._·it~out electric it:? s~p,;;.lied. ty nydro. :~:~z-,:; are there are ar~und a dozen communities that existed, so it is not just the cost of Pi::.sent's Arn ·Ne are talking a.bout, it is the :::::ost o.: "':hese ten or -e.leven ether :::ornm;.;.;-,itics a..s v.rell.

I ·t~ill ge1: ~.,·:1ai: :::~s:.:. ~'OLllU. t.e involve...: in s.Jp_tJlyins electricity to ::o1:.u.~·..aliti.2s i.s 3. o;ro-:-.:i..:..g CCF.!IiLUI'.oity 1 that jobs 2..:Ce .J.VailaLle carl :::.e ~rcvi(...~ci to t~·-= ~eo~.le of t!".Lis Province, ~o'C ~v-ill look ve::.:y syr:.::~t!:eticalll :-.. o= j...l.3i: ~o co·.lnt the ~1ou.:;es i.;ut :.e> look at - i3 t::ere c. ci:.:..:rc~, is t:1ez-:: .a. .;;cllool, is t_:..~re .J. s;:ore? - in terms of arriving at the

:-IR.. L . 3Art . .'~Y: supplying ~~s informacion . 1-IR. S?~"'-l<ER : (Si mms) hon . minister ~!R. !.. 3ARRY: Tape No . 1_663 so - 3 The hon. member could assist QS ~n Orders of the Day. Mot:ion 1. !t is moved and seconded chat: che Mr . Speaker , if I might: s ay, I mis sed •r~hen you called Answers co Questions. r ha ve an answ er to - • :>u'l HON. :1EMBER: ~!R . L. SARRY: !o\R. Sl?::A.'<ER: SCI-IE ilON. ML'fBERS: MR. L . BA.:t.I\Y: ~1R . SPEAKER: mt . L. BAAAY: ily leave . - a quest: i oo - Leave to revert to Answ~rs to Questions? Agreed . - b-ecaus e the member f<>r Lapoile - The hon.

Minis te~ of ~lines and -Energy . - raised it again yesterday ane ! have had ::he answer ?repared for some time . It is with respect to an oral question which asked -lj_83

Oece~ber 6, 1979, Tape 1664, ~age l -- apb for t.."le list: of contracted expenditures in t:he Gull Island hydro electric development: . ;;e have noth.1.ng t:O hide, all t:he information is here, ! am ~appy to !ile it:. ~!R . !-'..ORGAN : ~- 3ARRY: MR. SPEA.!<ER(Simmsl : Hear, hear~ Open government:. ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion 1 . Hotion, the hon . the 1-liru.st:er of Finance to int:roduc e a Bill, "l\.n Act To Amend The Local Guaram:ee Act, 1957," carried . {3i.ll No. 76). on ~cion, bill no . 76 read a first: time, ordered read a secon d time on tomorrow. Order 2.

Committee of the Whole on 4 3ill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolida t e The Law aelat:ing ro The establis~t And Adminis~ation Of Municipal Government !n T!le Provi:1ce". (Bill ~o. 58). on mot:ion, t:hat the House resolve it:sel! into a Committ:ee of the \vnole on said bill, ~l.r. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITT"<'..£ OF THE iiROLE MR. CHAL~"!AN (3u t:t) : Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. 'iHNDSOR: Sha~l clauses 121 ~ 130 carr~? The hon. the Minist:er of Mr.

Chairman, I think yest:erday, when we closed debate on this section, I was about: to explain a propos ed amendment which my colleague , the ~nister of Finance, will ~~~ to clause 126{1) (a). Subsection l is amended by adding at t:!'le beginning of t:he subsect:ion tne words "sub ject t:o ; ·.:.;s2-:~.: .. 2" and by aeding in paragraph A of subsection 1 c.'le wores "~..1al to or" :.mmed~ately after t:he words "in t!1e t:own" . Subsection 126(1 ) (a l ·.;ould ::ead, "Subject to subsection 2 a person re !.'erred t:o in subsection l of

section 125 who (

a) is liable to pay a real ;>roperty ::ax in c.'le t:own equal or in excess o! tne poll t:ax L-1 the same !inancia: year ." 1'he e!!ect: of ::.'ll.s amend&ent: is !:lasl.cally ::~ :nake

Decembe~ 6, 1979 Tape ~o. .i664 GtJ-2 ~"t. WINDSOR: ~t equal co or ~n excess of,

whereas c....,e ace c.. 'lac is now ~fore .:he P.ouse does read "in excess of". Mr. C.,airman, perhaps while : am o~ my feet, an amendment ~o Seccion 126(2) st:iking out subsection 2 and subscitutinq the following - Seccion 126{2) would, ::!lerefore, rea_c "w~e property is jointly owned, each JOint owner no~ exempted from the poll tax under subsection 3 is exempted for purposes of paragraph (

a) of subsection l from the proportion of poll tax equal co ~~e ratio of one of the total number of JOint owners not exempted fro m the poll ::ax under subsection 3". 3asically what we are saying, since prop erty tax is assessed jointly on the owners , that the exemption gi1;en t:o one person from poll tax !>ecause property cax :.s !)eing paid would ee shared equally by the owners. that ~s all . ~"t. Ci:iAIBMAN: (Suet ) :·IR. NV<RY : The hon. the member for ~poile.

I am glad, Sir, that some of the adnun~s::ra~rs from the fecerat:.on of ~yors and ~un1cipali::ies, or Ule municipal moveme:1t :.:~ Newfoundland. are in ::he gallery ~oday. : ·..risn they had bee:'! here last •.o~eek whe:l ...,e were debac~ng thl.s bill, pol.:ltLng out the weaknesses and ~~e need for amendments, but there seeli\S co be a bit or a cont:oversy at the moment in St. John's over the collection of taxes and it is raging at the moment.

The people •,;ho cannot afford to pay their t:.a.:<es are being threatened by, apparently, a new manager, I chink, cicy manager they have who, apparen~ly, people feel is :~om outside the Province and who ~O~$ nv: understand the local psychology and is all out co - MR.. WI:-JDSOR: ~. CHI\L'L'IAN : ?olnc oi order, ~lr. Chairman. On a pol.nc of order , the hoo. che ~inl.Ste~ of ~unic ~pal ~!airs and Housl.~g.

uece~er 6, 1979 T afe :-Ia. 1665 MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : On a point of order, the han. ~!inister of ~lunicipal .affairs and Eousing. ~r. Speaker, the han. gentleman is talking about a system of collecting taxes which the city of st. John's is taking . We are talking ' about the Local Governreent Act whicn does not affect ~~ e city of St. John's as it relates to collection of local taxe s, and I sliliruit t:1at h e is the refore irrelevant . And out of o rder . MR. CHAIRMAN: T!1e han. rnerrber for LaFoile is i:!:relevant. ~tR . S.

NEARY: I would like to ••elcome Your Honour back from .,;ew Zealand and I am glad to see that Your Honour learnt so much in ~·le•• Zealand when Your Honour ;.;as down there. t1R. E. ROBERTS: But you can c ertainl y tal k about governr..ent in ·ie.,.,foundland in this example of the city of St. John's as relevant. t·:R. S. NEARY: But I am ruled out of order.

I am rul~d irrelevant by the sentle!:!an ;,ho just came back froo ; :·.Jew zzc.land and .oo therefore I will not continue to be irrelevant, except to say that similiar situo.tions cculC. haF~en in ai.J:.f rr.unici~· ali tj ir.. : J e·.~:fo;;...i.Cla.IlG. ;.r.,~ I was gains to ask the r..iniste::: •,;hc;.t ti1e polic:l of :1i.3 governn.ent is in similiar situat:.ions as the one ·,..,e ~lave ~efore us now in t .. le cit:z· of St.

John'.; ~ ... ~e1:e ;:;efore Christmas ?eople are ueing tl1reatenecl if t.::~e.t Co not fay t:1e~r taxes t..-~a.t t:.:1ey are scing t.o :Ce C:.ragCjed intc court, :1c.uled screarnins into court, and t•lei:~r property is likely to be taken away from .h.rHl tne lien will .ce ~ut on t:1e1.r ~ro~ert::· an<i .;;,,: will go on t:1e auction blcoo.

Aad the lien ';ill l..e ;ut on t.1eir "orot'erty and ::;il~ 1Nill go 0:1 t.ae a1.1ction l..,lock. .1aybe I am irrelevant, .Sir, ~lll, 3eeing v.;e are disc,lssinc; this r:atter 1 I 'b.l.ougnt the t:Linister ~iij:l t liJ.:e tO tell US r,HlC.t t.i.le _t?hi.lOSOi'ily Of hiS governmer.t i::i r llow· t~e:,{ reCUJ.."'.r.~CiiC: 'C~'!.:..t town councils ...i.eal lli."t~J. this :-:.ind of sici..l.ation tnat we :lave at t:-.~e r.or..e.nt .1ere i:1 St. Wohn'..; b13.t seems t.o t.e ~1e sW...ject of Sdva.S:-e con-c~cver ~1?

December 6, 1979 Tape NC. 1665 DN- 2 :1R. N • w "INOSOR: Mr . Chairman, as I Wlderstand it we are doing sections 120 to 129, I think i~ is . Never~heless the

section the hon . gentleman is re£erring to I ctUn.k comes under

section _34, Lie n for ~~es and

section 133, Co1lec~ion of taxes . I~ does not matter . We ca."'! dis cuss it :10w or in t:en mir:.utes time whenever we get to it. I do not car e . Basically it states quite clearly that there can be a lien and this i s not a change . It is presently in the Act; there can be a ~ien placed a ga inst the property for your property ta.-t.

It is Limited to S.L.'< years ;~nd, as ! e_-.:plained I think in the genera~ deba~e on the principle of this Bill , or .in second readi.!lg, that therefore being limited t o six years , even a s suming that 10 per cent mil rate . .,hlch is one dollar per thousand and over a six year period the most you would have <JouJ.d be a 6 per cent assessment of taxes in arrears . Therefore there is oo court in the land that is going to sell a piece oi property fer the collection of 6 per cen~ tax es. :1R. NEi'.:RY : MR. CHAIRMAN .(BUTT): MR. NEARY: AN !iON. MD!BER: ~1R. NEARY : MR.

HAI~'I : MR • li!EAR'l : to have a few words on. MP. . CJ:il'JR."1AN : MR . t"LIGBT : :1r. C~airman. The hon . member for LaPolle . Thank. you, Sir. Are ,.,e doing Clause 131 oow, Sl.r? No, we are not to that yet. We are down to Clause 130, are we? We are discussing Clauses 121 to 130. Okay, Clause 131 is the one I wanted The hon. memller for Wind·sor-suchans. ':'ou can go ahead '"ith your ruling, ~!r . Chairman, but I ci.o •..ant to have a fe• .. ..,·ords on Clause 129 . Motion amendments 126 (1) ja) and 126 (2) carried . Shall Clauses 121 t:o 30 carry? The hoo. member for windsor - auchans . ·1187

·~ a.pe ~ro . 166 5 ..~: . - 3 Y'~s, .!~. C.\ai~an, c ~ u.s is ~:.e t.iat:S£ that : ac!~::essec .:-,·s.alf ~o i., t.;:e t:ei;ace. .:..nc ~:e Clause ::ea<is, •·:·i?\ere t:.'1e real .-ro,;erti' ::ax is .:.a.,;osec in t..'le co.,.-n1 t..1e ·.:acer ar.c sewage ta.x shall =.e set .1s i1 ;:erc1!~tac;e o~ ":..'le assesstr.er.c of t.."'e assessee value of t!:e :x:al !"'roperty' ' . ~~, ~..r . Speaker , ! ... ,ant: to hear cne cinis~er explal.:l ~· hy i~ is necessar1 to n.:.ve ::.!:is ?articular Clause in thi s .-articular piece of leqis ­ l.:~tion .

L'l most ::owr.s in :·:e;..foundland today :~ here ·.:e .1ave a real ?ropert"J ::ax,t.le ·.•.:;.ter l.S bascc on a sat rate , In r.cst CDses. o;..:~ e::'!l ';.'1e r..i:tis ter :.as ::een ,; :.:.ccc:;si ~;; l he has encouraged the councils to get the water race co t·~·elve dollars ?er r.1ont.:"1. So in a.ost towns t .• e m axit:~um ·.,ate:: rate, not in all l::ut 1:1 most: cowns cl:e ~~:a xin-~ 1oater race it:: ··1188

Tape No. 1666 i'H-1 ''P. FLIG'P.T: $12 per ~onth cr $1~4 rer year and that is in place ·11here tb.ere is a real property tax. Now the question here tr~;!t !::ecor.E!s ·:ery pertinent is w·hy, why is this clause necessary?

C~vious~y the r.inister ~as ~ot no desire to reduce the arr.ount of revenue accruing to a to~·n that has a fixec' water rate. l'.ssUITling that a person li•res in an incoz:Porated town that has a real propert'J tax, a~d assur.ing that that ~rc~erty is valuec' at $50,0QO, at a ten mil rat~ ':'"'at ?rOT>E!rty rn-rner can eX!"ect a SSOO a year ?roperty tax and in addition to that "rte has presently get a fixec "ater rate at Sl2 ::e~ !"'O~t.t.., Sl4i1 p~r y~ar. n~-, l:7hy i3 it neceSsar~l ~or this governwe!"lt I • ... '":•.' is i-: necessary for this legislation to contain suc!1 a clause?

Is it to c::renerate !"ore revenue?

Coes the minister see cm-:n the road ~~at a council ~~at has a ten mil property rate will decide to implement "\ miJ. rate o!'l. water rates t~_at woulC' ~r:cr-ease the reve!:ue ato~ze S:J .14? !n o~'"'er ·.·orcs 1 ca.~ most people living in cor:T.unities or tmms that ::ave a real property ta..'"< ex~ect to pay, ft~her. this la.w corres in force, '.!her. this act is :reclaimed, can they then expect tc 9ay :r.ore than $14-1 .. 1 per year? r,1!ill they be at the w·hims of a cour..cil ~ ..... ~'lich says, •Look t'":ere is no reason Nhy we shculc not te getting $250 per man~~ watQr rate insteac of the !'144 -,,"" are prese!"tly getting?

Is it possi'=le t::aL: a cort~uni ty or a town '-'<'~ere the ta."<payers are suffering unC!er a hi~h p!:'or;erty mil rate - let us say ten, a ten mil rate is fai~l~i' t-~igl: in t=:is Province - $50,000 is ~ot a high assessrrent for a }:erne in t~is Province ~oCay with all t~e services, so ~~at person is hit '.·ri.t::. S51")0 !'e!:' =<on~ · ~ property tax and nO'Nr as it pres~ntly sitsj he is J.cckinC?" at a ~a.w,::i:r,w of ~12 re:!" mont:t •.-ra-ter rate.

Is t:-.at not ~~cegh? tr~..; a!:out if .,,e get a council in rlacP. that d:2cides, let us give it to ":'"-9t!' tot.':. ~oJays, Froperty tax, and u.-=ing this le<:rislaticr. a rril rate C.!l ~,~at2r? :Tot.-r, Mr. Spealt:er, t!"-.ere is not a councillor - t~e minister inc1icat -~C tr.at "::-te feC.eration · .. tas. Supporti!"lg this lec_:.:!..slat:!.on. ~·7elll! ::ar. t=ll t:,.e ~inister t~at tr.e fe~eration is ceadly cppcsec to tr.at rarticular clause. T~e:r do not understand ·.·:rhy it is t!':cre. T~ey Co r..ot feel it is :1'~cessa.rJ =cr it to k:~ t~ere ancl it s!:ould not ::e there.

Ther:- ..j,rs sus:. ~~i:!::-2 ·1189

Dece!"'"=-er 6,l~7f) Tape No. 1EFS6 AF-2 :·~P... :='LIGt~: ------ as irresponsible councils, Nr. Speaker.

One is qivil g tl>e clout to t:,e minister •.-;here if a town is not taking as :rue"> revenue out of! t!"te taxpayers as he •.-;ould like to see the!T' c'.o, :,e is in a :nasi tion to say to them, 'I.ooJr, '"'hY c'.o you not increase your income from your water and sewer rate?' Get off the fixed $144 - as a matter of fact,that option is not there because it says in ~..,is clause that it is wandatory. ~e minute that e:is bill is proclaimed it will be mandatory for the water rates in ~..,is Province to be fixed to the real property percentage.

Why is it mandatory? \•Thy must the to~m of '·:incsor, for instance, today, or Grand Falls, or Stephenville or any o~..,er tQWn that has got a real property tax and besices the real property they have a $12 per ::r.onth water rate assessment, ~o;hy· is it mandatory that that council would go to the real assessment for water and sewerage taxes? Every to~ in the Province is opposed to it, ~~r. S_peaker.

I am opposec to it and I !::elieve the l:'inister - The minister is going to have to give us a real good justification for thco.t particular clause in order for - I Hill spea': for myself anc I know I am speaking for some of the members on this sic'.e of the <.;ouse, before this particular legislation is aJ.loNec to ;:ass with that clause as is. o!R. CHAI?YMl: (5utt) The han. 1·'inister of !<!unicipal .:--.f:airs and t:ousing. ~~r. t:r.airrr,an, I thank the l'.on. qentleirar. far his question.

I't is a valid ~.:air. t t.da t l1as been brougi1t .liJ. l .'l!. he indica tee the Federation of !!ayers and :!unicipali ties or the F.:Ceratian of :~unicipali ties, as it is r.o~ 7 calleC. 1 h.av'=! indica tee~ scr..e conct:!rn a~O r . .;e CiscusseC it anc1 I gave thero an explcnation ·-1hich I ··.ri ll now C7i·J-e the?- ::ona gentlerran,in fact ..

First of all,let rr:e quote t'-,e ~;:-.el an :=-oyal i'Cot:l!'issicn ?.e!,'lcrt, page 29P, •.;hic h rP.acs, '"!'he 2.s is !"'.C"'"•r ~1:-:.e case 1 ::et~·;een n~Ser rat.::=s anc1 nr:n-user t.ax~s i::. c 0r.r:ectj on 'rii t;: t1-·~se ;articular service charges . . , P:r-ovi.sinrt for such cra~ga!:i

Tape :·To. 1666 should be locatec' in the taxatior. s~ctio~ of t:-.e prorosed Municipalit~es Jl.ct. ftlhat the corrrrission '~ saying '~r. Chai=an, is t~at, indeed 1 instead of ~ aving a real !?roperty :'ax on the property anc 'laving a flat rate or •,;!'-.atever on ·.-Tater and se"er services 1 t':J.at it be ircposec1 as a pe!:centage of real property assessee' value in t':J.e same ~anner as a !?roperty ~ax.

December 6, 1979 Tape 1667 PK - 1 Mr. Windsor: The han. g~1tleman is a little bit off line when he talks about an increase. First of all, there is no intent to increase, there is no intent to cause an increase on the water and sewer levy on the municipality, on the individual taxpayer. The Council themselves set that. Let me clarify. The han. gentleman says, "We are givingcouncils power to piggyback taxation. Power they have now, Mr.

Chairman, they have the right now.-Once they are given by the minister the right to impose the property tax then they set their tax rate, ~hey have the right to set a water and sewerage rate. So they have that right now. They can set the level of taxation in their community, so nothing is changed there. The only thing we are changing is taking it from a flat rate to a percentage of the assessed value. The net effect of that, Mr.

Chairman, is that lower valued homes 1 and assumedly ; based on the whole-principle of the property tax system, therefore, are people who can least afford to pay for property taxes and the same would apply to water taxes. It is not true that because there is a rate now of $144, and that is not a fixed rate, Mr. Chairrnan 1 let me clarify that once again, that is a minimum that the department has set as a matter of policy for municipalities who have water and sewerage systems in place. There are many municipalities, there are several at least, that do indeed charge more than $144. And there is no limit on them.

They could charge $200 on the present system 1 they can charge $500 on the present system, if the cost of operating and maintaining the services warrants it such. So nothing will change there. The net amount, the total bottom line number of dollars that the municipality must raise will be the same. If at the moment the average is obviously $144 because it is a flat rate 1 then the average under the new system will have to be $144.

Therefore 1 some persons whose homes are less than the average assessed value in a community would indeed pay less and some with the more expensive homes would indeed pay a little bit more. And I have just got a couple of quick figures here just to give you - this

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1667 IB-2 MR. WINDSOR: is totally a hypo~hetical case, Mr. Chairman. You take a community with 400 homes which are now assessed at $144 each, it would give you, as I have it 1 ~57,600 total revenue from the municipality. And let us assume that the average assessment is $30,000 for a total assessment of approximately $12 million, the mil rate to bring in the same amount of revenue on 400 homes averaged at $30,000 each would be four and a half mils. Therefore a $10,000 house, if L~ere was_such a unit in the c~mmunitv. would pay $45 and a $50,000 house would pay $225.

Obviously ,- there is a differential between them but I am not sure that there are that many communities that have a $10,000. But obviously it is fair to say AN liON. MEMBER: MR. WINDSOR: (Inaudible). Yes. Obviously. I am not denying that h"+- +-"o property tax system is based on that whole presumption as well, nothing changes. And all that we are saying and all that the commission was saying is that if the philosophy applies to property tax then , indeed,it may just as well apply to water and sewerage services, that those who can best afford to pay should pay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR- CHAIRJ.'IAN (BUTT) : MR.

FLIGHT: Hear, hear! The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. I am not totally satisfied with that particular answer, Mr. Chairman- I just want to tell this House of Assembly, Mr.

Chairman, that the reason- the minister is right t ~er~ ?-re t>!O or three towns in Ne•,.,.foundla..'l.d t!">at have got a higher than twelve dollar per month water rate, but the reason is this; !~out two or three years ago the now Premier, the then Minister of Municipal Affairs 1 made a unilateral decision that water rates were going to go in this Province, to twelve dollars per month and there are very few councils in this Province today ·.;hie~. have a t\·ielve i'ollar a rnont01 •.•ater rate there by their own reckoning. As a matter of fact 1 I can name a lot of councils that resisted going to t welve dollars.

The y took over three years, from six to eight to ten and when it was sitting at ~ight and the mayor or a delegation of that town council came in to

i:>ecember 6, 1979 Tape No. 1667 ra-J ~!R. FLIGl:lT: qe~ an e:n:ension :o a loan 1 :;.'le cudgel 10as used t:hen and said, ''les, we :.Jill con sider giving you the money you need to do suc:h and such a tbing, however . you have sot co go back and gee your caxes up to t•Nelve collars a month: ~ ::!lac !s the problem, Mr. c.'lairmarl, chat t.~is is what '"'e are going to see happening under this particular clause.

The only reason we have a t;.;elve dollar water rate in :;.us ?rovL,ce today is because the minister insis.:ed that !.= you wane any co-operation from ::.his department then your rates go to t1~elve dollars a month. And another fallacy in this whole scheme, )lr . C:tairman, is this: The mlJU.ster just said t:hac races ·<~ill !>e based on the town's abilic:y to pay, co pay its own ·;;ay. Now, r have to ask you '•IDat about a to100 with a population of about 200 people ·,.;ho have about $500 , 000 debentures looking them in the £ace where they have to meet the int~ests on those debent:Ures senu-annually, ·119).

Jece~ber a, 1979 T:o.pe _;o. l6Ea .c - l ---".... G. E':.IGHT: where th~y can not raise, at the present tax structure, the money they need to C.o ::.i.1e general ope!:'3.tion of t!1c town, their general aWninistration and ~aintenance. Is the ~inister going to say that you do not :C.ave to increase your water rates or you do r:ot have to have a high trli.l !i:U.te, we will pick_ up t.'le debenture charges, we '~ill ;,::ick u;;: t:-:e $40,000 a year on your debentures? Not hardly.

Do you }~J.OW •,.Jhat ~le is going to say:i If that giver.. town decides to stick Nith a ruil rate that would generate th~ $144 L'ley are getting r:ow and ~1ey can not afford to pay their debenture interest, the minister is going to say, luck,· t!tis P!:'ovince i.s .;;uJ:,sidizing you now by $40,0')0 or ~50.,000 a year and ,,.,e are ::o~ going to do t~at any more. 1tle are telling you to set your u1il rate ..ip to a point r,o~here yoi.l are paying your own •,.·ay, c.nd t!!at is -.~~·:1ere et;er·] !!"Luni.:::::il_':lality in t.:.1.is Province t~at has a debenture debt and I an •:.xcludinc; t~e larger municip3.lities, the ones t....~at ~1ave a corr.oercial tax ~ase - probably tax base C3.11 ":.rir..g in tl1e rever.ue they ~eed to pay their debenture interest and that t~~e of t~ing 1 but che towns, all t~~ tol:,·:ns I r~present everyone of t:~er.. taat is i:J.corj?oratec! has got a debenture debt that there is no way in t!l.e :.-torld for them to get their taxe3 hi·;h ~~~oug:1 to r.eet the de:!:-en'i:urc= c:,arges.

And t!'lis clause :1ere is going to c.llo'.Y the ;~inist2r to ·.~~-ield t~1e cudgel .3.nd sa:r, qet your ~rater rate 'l.lr to six ~ils, or seve!1 mils, or eiqht :-:1ils tee a use ~fou are not ~a :_ring ::·our "Na'J, tb.e town of s uc~ .J.nC. S..lC~1 i.:; payi~1g its way and you ;,._., ~ •'U.J .fOU..I:S. And, Mr. Chairman, that is the reason for that particular -.- ~ - 1---· ~.J.. .... .... :...:... .. :J19S

·- ~ .-:~ - - ..1:::: .1re :.'le :!lings :::.a c t:..'le :;.inJ.st:er . .,ancs to be able to •.;hi p :he ~.;o , ooo . :·:."l. J. ::>r :::: Jc:ven:.; ... ! :s? :::~ . ~ . c:-:c:!T: Se·Je n. Llils , seve:'! . :L\ .. ~ . fL!G:iT: 30 , :~ . ;~ai~ar. , ! ~t.J ::cc ;o.:.:-.c; to ..;o ere~:-, :.' !.case . ·l195

::Jec~:Lber 6, 1979 Tape :<o. 1663 :!3 - 3 >IR. N. ;:I:JDSOR: Ar. C:!1airrr.an, I can only reiterate ~;1e ars-=ents I gave earlier and add a couple of points to them :<=..ber one - to point out tc the han. gentleman, if he is not aware, and ;1e :nay l::e 1 t!1at the City of Cor~er ?.rook at the :;,omer..t and it ~as for sowe tirr.e, operated unCer this S'lstem and operate~ ~uite satisfactorily/ in fact, in tild~ ti:ley do :1ave a .,.,ater and sewerage tax as a .;:ercentage of t..'Je real 2roperty tax syste~::.

I would like to cla~ify, howev~r, sorr.e of the ~oints :"le made. lie ~alked about a municipality that has a very high capital debt over its head, and ":!lerefore 1 •Nould have a very high water and sewer _?ercentac;;e ~s a :'!."'Operty tax 1 or as a water and se\-.•er tax. ~'./hat the r.on. -;entle:r.an is misconstr,.ling is he is confusing capital am.i curren~, ar.d 02erating, The $144 policy we have at the moment is to ensure t;lat ~~unicipalities are 1 hopefully, :;;eari:v; a fai= share of t!"le cost of opera':ion and ~aintenance. :::n many cases 1 .;;144 per year per hou,:;e:-:old doe~ not -:;.ay, i:-1 fac~,the cost of C?er3.t.ion and rr.ai:-.terlance let alan~ i!1terest on the deber.t u res, l e t alone princi.:_:al on t:!1e c:el::ier .. tures.. ..:\11 that •.<~e said i:1 t:.'le C.epc.rtment was t~at l:ef o re \Ve •.vould ev~n consider 3 ..

Jl Y k.ir.d of ~ s ~J.bsi ·:! y on OFer3. tion, if i. t ~ ... ·as ~=-;~ir::d, then 'rle would i:1sist on ~144 ::er y-e:.r. So, <:he :-:en. 3'~;-.~lema:l' s fec.:!:"s ~nat there is -;oing to Ce a very >.i.;n ;erc2nta;e :1~!."e in orde~ to be.3.r t!:~ t:·.1ll cos"': of (:a:'ital d2::t ar~ not acc..lr"lt~ .

C~ i_~i':.2l operating costs, basically, COr.'IC fr-:J:.; ':~2 ~eal ~ro~e~t:· t~:< ~ss~s s ~e~t itsel~ .. 1\.ff a irs and ~nv i ronr.1~:-J. t. • .. • • ..: . ..... .:_ .::.·~ •• :2 •• , ::.'.·- .. - .... . . l • ..;.~.o.;..; .... .... .:;o..-.., . . . ·-···· ~, .... -~ -- :.:.·. r., ..;- . ....:.:..:::.:.. : . ._,

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1669 GH-1 MRS • NEWHOOK: I think, perhaps, this might be the purpose of this when it says, "For different classes of properties• '-''R. C:':!II?.!>!J!.~T (Butt) Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: The hen. the Minister of Municipal Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, my han. colleague is exactly correct,

Section 130 provides for the variance of this tax for various users and is specifically designed for that purpose, where there are special users such as car washes, bottling plants, for instance, somebody, maybe a brewery or a softdrink bottl·ing factory which, obviously, would have an extremely high usage of water and which may, in fact, need a very high quality water, and th~t the municipality may have to provide some form of special treatment, so that there is provision under

Section 130 that the rate can be varied so that the town can get a fair return for high users or special users. My colleague is entirely accurate. Y!R. FLIGHT: MR. FLIGHT: :.·,_ l"'h;,i rTT',.,., The hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. You know, I cannot give up on this one yet, Mr. Chai~""· I want the minister to know that I understand what happens to the water rates that are collected in a given town, the $12 per month. As he says, it is charged off to administration.

Well, I can tell the minister that the revenue grants coming from Municipal Affairs are paid out to the municipalities based on the collection of that $12 per month. As a matter of fact, that is one of the few things that is revenue bearing.

Well, then will he explain to me how it is that most of the communities in this Province that have a debenture debt hanging over their heads, that have a $30,000 or $40,000 interest debt hanging over their heads, that the department intercepts those revenue grants, that if they are not meeting all the interest the department intercepts and holds back and takes back from them and will not allow them to have their revenue ryrants based on the water rate being collected. So, when

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1669 GH-2 MR. FLIGHT: the minister says that any revenue collected by this clause will be applied to the general administration, if enough is collected to pay for the general administration, then any surplus will go to paying off interest charges. The balance that the municipality cannot pay off, the minister will be in a position to say, "Move up your assessment on your "ater rates to pay a better srare of the $40,000 or $50,000". Mr. Speaker, my concern with the hon. lady from Gander (Mrs.

Newhook), who I am totally at,.are :1as 3uch ' nowlP.<igP. in municipal government, is that she talks about the Town of Gander. ~~ere be no need of any debate on this particular bill in this House of Assembly if every town in Newfoundland was as fortunate as Gander.

If every town that is going to get hurt and crippled by this particular bill had all the assets going and the commercial tax base that Gander has going, then they would gladly accept this legislation, and they probably would be able to set their residential water rates at one mil or two mils, knm~ing that the DOT and the MOT and every Federal agency and the International Airport and the commercial taxpayers would contribute more than was necessary to meet the capital and administration costs of the Town of Gander.

Our problem is that we have only got one Gander in Newfoundland, and we have one Grand Falls and we have one Corner Brook. This legislation is going to hit where it hurts, the small municipalities ... :1ich !:i 'Je years ago, negotiated a $300,000 or $400,000 or $500,000 loan to put in a •.-~ater and sewerage system and have not been paying their fair share because it is impossible for them to raise the kind of revenue they require to pay their full share. This legislation will make it possible for the minister to force that council not 0r.ly to pay t~eir fair share but maybe to pay an unbearable share.

That is what concerns me, Mr. Minister, and one can stand here - I mean, I suppose, one could take the attitude that I am going to filibuster on this bill; in which case, "uu would need somebody getting up and down like jack rabbits. I think I have said what I '"ant to say. I think the points I made on that pa~ticular clause are good points, and I believe that people on that

Jecember o, 1979 '!'ape ~o. 1669 Ga- 3 MR. FLIGt-:'1': s~de of che House who are representL~g dist:riccs chat. have Slllal~ commun~cies chac are scagc;erinq under debcs that. were negociate~ qoL~g ~ack five years ago, $300,000, $400,000, $500,000, S600,000 munic1pa~ deb~s, who have not. been able to pay their share oi ~•e inceresc races, ~~is bill is designed to squeeze every last dime ouc of those municipalities and out of the people living in che mun~C1?a.Lit.J.es. Do not be fooled by the minister using - ! accept that. he sort of said it congue in cheek - but do not be fooled by the $10,000 property rates .

There will not be a shed in ::his ?rovince c.."'at w-ill be valued at. SlO,OOO three years from now when ~~e assessors go acting on the instruc~ions of the minlster, go ou~ to do the assessmencs in the municipalities around this ?rovince. Never mi.nd your SlO,OOO assessment-s. It •.rill be closer to $60,000 for •.mac ;;.o:rmally - t.he man will be able to say, ":.COlt , ~'lis only cosc me SlO,OOO. : built it with my own hands, r cut c..~e ·1201

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1670 GH-1 MR. FLIGHT: and the capital cost of this house is $10,000 because of my initiative and hard work. How come you are telling me it is $60,000, so you can hit me with a three mil sater rate?" Those are the kinds of problems that this bill is going to bring to the smaller communities in this Province, Mr. Chairman, and the minister is going to have a hard time living with this bill.

The minister is in for a rude awakening when he starts hearing from the councils in Badger and in Millertown and I can name about 300 more communities, when they tell him categorically,right blunt to his face that they have no intention - and the small communities in the member for Bonavista South's district- MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) names if you name them. MR. FLIGHT: - all the communities in't~e member for Bonavista South's district. His problem is he believes this except he is whipped in line by the Premier and the minister to support the bill.

All the small communities in his district are shaking like a leaf, shaking like a leaf on this particular piece of legislation, and he is going to run into towns that are going to categorically refuse to implement that particular clause or to accept the property tax philosophy. What is going to be interesting is how he is going to deal with it, Mr. Chairman. Like I said, I could take the attitude and convince some of my friends tc stand up and keep filibustering, but I think I have made the points. I think the points are- they are important, quite valid. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (Butt) The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, I have to make just a couple of '"ery brief comments. I appreciate the hon. gentleman's comrr~nts to state his concerns. One think I have to correct is a very serious statement that he made, that assessors from the department would go out into this Province acting under instructions from the minister. I have to clarify that for the record, Mr. Chairman, ·12U2

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1670 GH-2 MR. WINDSOR: That is entirely inaccurate. It is a very serious allegation. The assessors in the department, the Assessment Division, operate under the Assessment Act in a very clear law passed by this House of Assembly. The minister will not and has not any authority to instruct assessors to place high assessments on property, and that is a very serious allegation. I do not think the han. gentleman was really serious when he made it, but I just wanted to clarify it for the rec~rd. The other point I want to make is that the han. gentleman talked about withholding reYenue grants.

Yes, by all means, if a municipality that has a $3 water and sewer fee, by all means we would do that. That is under the old system where there were two budgets. Under this system there will only be one budget, just the one budget. ~ater and sewerage and all the revenues in the municipality will be in. the one, doing away with the system of having a general account budget, an operating budget, and having a utility budget.

Everything will be put together because it is just a sort of unworkable sort of thing where municipalities are really, as han. gentlemen I am sure know- I am sure my colleague from Burin-Placentia West (:'r. Eollett) I am sure he is well aware that there is a lot of juggling at budget time between one budget and the other to see whichever was most favourable for the municipality - who is fooling whom? What we are doing now is putting it all in one.

There is no authority in the minister ~a make municipalities collect more as a result of this; in fact, there is less. ~unicipalities now are setting their budgets, they are setting their level of expenditure, they are setting their tax rates. The minister does not even have the opportunity to approve of it anymore, cannot withhold the approval of a budget and say raise your taxes. The control is entirely within the hands of the municipality where it, indeed, belongs. MRS. NEWHOOK: I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that this act is a set of guidelines, it is a- 1203

~ecembe~ o, 9i9 Tap e No. 1670 Gii- 3 ~~ . CSU~N: !Suet ) ~he hen . ~lin~ster of Consumer A£:airs and Snv _ronment . :-IRS. NEWHOOK: Yes , I am sorry. This ace is a set of guidelines. Ic is set for small towns and big cowns allke. lc is ::here ~or !:he councils co use ~heLr common sense, and 1 would say che bon. member chere i s indicac~ng ::hat ~ouncils are going to be irresponsible. carried. 111..~. THOMS-: On moc:ion, Clauses 121 chro ugh too 130 , Shall Clauses 131 through co 40 carry?

The hon. member :or Gran d Bank. 1 said in the iiouse a :: e•IJ ;iays ago, Mr. lti:'l-ster, and ! will repeat: it here now, !.f you '"ant me co stay her e in t.his H.ouse til Chrisanas Eve, New Ye·ar' s Eve, to iscuss this ?ieee of repressive legis1atJ.on, I will be only too happy co 'o so. SOME HON. !d..E!1BE:RS: :iear, hear! Thank you. Only teo haP?Y to C.o so, and do not: quest:ion my righ c co scand up he~e and s,;;:ea.k on any one of ~~e 648 clauses in c~s legisl ac~on . !1r. Chairman, S-ection 131{1 ) and (2 } , it: is che C.!.Cle secdon chat gives me a litt:le trouble.

Section lJl (

l) qi•1es che council che remedy

~- ecerber c, 1~7~ ~ape No. 1671 Rl'. - 1 .'!R • L • TFO'~S : to shut off and aisconnect the service for the nonpa~ent of taxes. =·:RS • NFWHOOK: ( Inaudil: le 1 • Oh yes, always. Sure 1~e kno"' that, >Je can read. !-'P. L. 'l'H0~1S : ~Tow t1adam I can go through t~e legislation of this Frovince and ·I can show yoc act after act after act that should be amended,acts that should be repealed net because it has al1qays been in the act is it gooc.

P.. let of t..l;in<es in here t..l;at were in the previous act I do not consider good legislation ~-d I do not consider it a reason for voting for it tecause it has been there l:efore- 1-'T P.ON. ~rE~I!EER: Eear, hear! -it does not make it good legislation. ~-lR. S. NEARY: and besides that, t..~is was supposed to te a big refo~ and all the changes (inaudible) ~!:' .. L. 'C'HOMS:

Section 92 "'as in t..l;e previous act. I -lisaonrn'Ted of that one. There are other ,-:ections, there are other acts and t.'1ere ahrays '"ill lee. 131 gives t.'1e authority to council to cut off the wa:ter supFl~' :or arears of taxes. ~"!c. 2 gives to any empJ.oyee or agent of council the right to enter upon real property - privately owned real property and at all reasonable ti~es enter into any of the tuildings or structures there.,r for the purposes of disconnecting t'=".e -..:ater or se'.ver.

"rhis particular act gi ,res the councils 1 it gives thern a lien for arrear~ of taxes, incumbers the property as a first mortgage no matter ':r~en other incurnC.rances ~av~ gene on the ~roperty. 't.'here ther-2 are arrears of taxes then t.~ere i: auto~atically a priority given and no ~atter when a ~ortaage or jucgernent or anything else is put on the ;>roperty there is a statutory lien which affixes to the procerty under t!"lis cct. ':'te council can also disstrain '.T!lere ~h.~r~ are !:"entals payahle can disstrain agaiast the rentals payable to collect the arrears of rent. =urth~rr.oi'e-, t!":.e ccuncil can _. of course, sue for th'=! u..rrears of rc!lt !.r. r;ourt.

DnC..er

section 1.1.1 t....~~y can sne anC t·1h er~ a ~o::rscn is :.i.e...:: 1'= =:or arrea~s of =~nt- ''· Is gui!. t:' c£ 2.n. offence 2.nr J ia!" le C!" ·1205

'!'ane l!o. 1651 Pl\ - 2 ··-:- convictior of tc a !i~e o: ~ot :ess ~ ~~~ cz5 . ~ ~ ~~~ eac~ cay's concinuance ef scch fai lure conscitutes a separate ~::e :u: e~. ~:· <>.i::;-aro, ::oay'!-e :.':is is not a necessary p revision to have i n

an act i;; can mean a g rea t cea~ of '".a..-cship for so::oeboey . : t..~i:'\k I '! : ::::e.:- -:ea r c on tr.e r.e11s or reac in the ;>apers in the lase day or so where - "'.e =!. -:·· c: St . John's is cutt.inq of! t~e •.o~at:er for :eople •..:ho are :.n ~~~a=s cf rent . ~c.:, ~-:e only reas on why ~ost ?SOFle ~ill not pay t..~e ir ~~ ~-: :.~ ~er. ause thev eo not have ~he :noney. '!'~er-e are very :ew people on ~·c•1 ·,~a.~': tc ta..'<e a sur1ey 1 ! t..toulc! be very SUZ"?rised i! you founC o:-:e {inaud~le) b£ s~~rise ~ (in auci ble) . "o , I co ~ot t..'link you hea.:- i;; like t.."a:: at ell, I thL'\k •,.r!-a:: :,·cu !':ave ::ee.n hearing is :.~at there are a lot o! '!-usi~ ess es and

':'..lpte 1672 ·'"" l -~c.!., also,you :::.J.ve to ccnsi~e.r t~a~ in lots vf c~ses it is !lOt the husba,."'ld or the wife w·~1.0 is going to 5'U.£f..:r, it i.s t:1e .::hl~clren 'Nho are living in these :1ou~es. r.= the S,ity of St. Joh."l' s -;oes a~ea'- toCay .:.nd disconnects the wac.er and 3..;>;-:er f~o~~ 3. ~.3.r-:.ic:1l.:i.r ;1ouse - It is not like · .. ihen I \•:a3 a kid grow in; '-"P in :.amaline, .,..e hu.d an outdoor privy, we ;1ad an outdoor ~ile~. · .. here C..o ~1~y go today if ~:1e wate:::- .J.nJ. sewer is cut of=? It is =~e children ~.vho suffer in a sit;Jation li~.;.; t:'1is.

It is :1arsh, and I ::.-ealize that i=. is .a final t:Ung t1-lat a council ·.-voulci do,.

Lut I am just wondering if it is absolutel:,• necessary in light of t!te ct:ter provi3ions of t~e act .. .::1 fact 1 t!lere is what is ~asicall7 a. first :nortgage on t.1.e property, :10 r:1atte::- when it goes there J in 1Tiet.; of the fact t:1a.t you can sue !or yo-.:..r arrears 1 in view a= the fact that :lou can atta.cn =~ntal3 =or :lour 2.r=-~~ar.s. rerr.c<.iy. ~or example, I own an a~ar~Jent buil~ing - oXay? - t~e legislat.:>rs of this Provinc2, i£ :::: ~--:\ not ::1istaken-- r.1aybe t.:-~e ~-!i:-1ister of :!inas a..""l<.l :n~rgy can c_:,rr.:c~ :!le if I ~-r. ·,;rcr:s-.- v.;aer2 a. tenant is L"'l arrears cf !'ent he is ~reclucled l.Jnder th8 L.J.ndlord anc!

Tena~t ::tesider..tial Tenancies .!..ct from discontinuing services S '.lC!:i. a.s t.""lis lig:;.,t, :teat, or an~{thing of t~:at uatte!:". :!R. :IE:\P.Y: For t.'1ree rr.::lnt:C.s. ;to. !ie cannot G.iscontinue at ~11. : IH.. ~·T£;,RY : Sure ~e ca~. c.1n :;·.!a for ~~~ arraars, he ~an s~e for pcssession. :iR. 3!'.P.P.Y: (i.r.a-.cli:Cle)

.. co~~s :o ~ollect~ng arrears of ~xes , ~ro~e~~y :a 7.e ~, ~a~~r ! consic~r ,_ ~o '::,a !:ac legislation, c.'le:-. I ·,·i!l spa,!.\; O\;t J.c;ai::s~ i:: in ::-.is House . T:1c seco~c! F~ of c~a.: ?!"Cvisio:"l is, ~n d ~"r:J ic i s t;i ·J~n "L't. wo::s : ·~hat is ':.-.at again? .l~l ;(-;);i. . !E:-9!:.?.: ( :.nauci~le l :~ . .. a:.::c~':1..: : ::.:: ... · ...... ' . _ .. - ·-~ ..... -·· ---··""'--· • • .;:.: .~ =..-•• : .. ..::. =-.:: . .:i: ..

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1673 IB-1 MR. THOMS: so what are we doing? We are legislating absurdities or the opportunity for people to do that which is absurd. If what they can do under the

section is absurd why put it in there to start with? Now, I know the minister is not going to agree and I would not expect him to agree to amending that

section at the present time without giving it some serious consideration. I would be satisfied just knowing that he would give it some consideration. I think it is a serious enough matter to give it the kind of consideration that it needs. Sure it was in the other act but it may have been wrong to have it in the other act and it may be wrong to have it in this act. :'ffi. CHAIRMAN (MR. BAIRD): The hon. member for Carbonear. MR.· MOORES: This, Mr. Chairman, according to the hen. Minister of Municipal Affairs is a stalwart piece of reform legislation.

He, along with his colleagues in government, have introduced this bill supposedly to better serve the residents and the local government in this Province. Well, it is true, Mr. Chairman, that the minister has reformed the municipalities regulations in this Province. He has taken a piece of rubbish and he has turned it into a piece of trash and that is reform. That is clear-cut reform. I do not think that there is any other corporate citizen in this Province that is permitted under the laws of this Province to disconnect a vital service to a human being and his family.

I do not believe it exists not only in this Province but anywhere in the free world. They are all controlled, by the way, by the government so it is merely-the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations or Manpower and Labour , whatever he is, points out that the other public utilities in the Province such as Light and Power and Newfoundland Telephone also have that privilege.

And I say to him that they come directly or indirectly under the jurisdiction of this government. the~efore, ~his clause is merely a consistent method in which you people deal with human beings and taxpayers in this Province, no different. Mr. Chairman, I have had the opportunit y since being elected to this House in l975,of becoming associated with t he 12D9

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1673 IB-2 M.l:t. ~OORES: ram1£icat~ons of this c~ause on a number of occas1ons . I know of constitue nts in the town of C.arbonear, which J.S t.he only town 1n !llY dLs trict cllac has ;>roperty taxes as such, .uJC I might add it J.S one of the largest towns 1n c.-...e ?rovince, I think ic ranks perhaps sevent.h o.r eigh th now.

I have seen taxpayers come out wit.h sho vels a.nd pic ks and knives and picket s and rocks, anyth ing but shocguns or some other weapon 1 to defend themse~ves , come ouc and say to the mayor or the agent of the town council,' If you come Ul over my property line to cut off my water this is going to happen : There is no more cantankerous and obnoxious clause in any government bill in this Province than this one right here.

I have seen mayors who have been assa ulted Ul caverns, who have been confionced on the street, who have received punches in the face, kicks everywhere, tossed against buildings, people trying to :ru.n over them in cars, all because the gover:unent of t!ti.s Province has allowed this phrase, c:U.s piece of ::e£or:n legisla tion, fuse of all, to be recained in this bill and , secondly , to ret.un :.t only because it was in t.';e former regulacions. Now thac is reform legislation for you. Thac is =oresight, thac is intellecc on the pare of the !11inlster and hi s government.

They are going to allow this clause to remaLn and by allowing the clause :121 0

Jece~ar 5, 1':>79 Tape 1674 EC - 1 ~1R. R. :-!GORES: to remain 1 they allow all of the confrontation, all of ~~e aggressiveness, the apprehension, tile inconvenience, ~~ e volatility to remain. And there reall y is no need of it, because a corporate citizen in ~~is Province, any corporate citizen, has the right to take a taxpayer or a debtor to court to retrieve what they are owed, and that is no more or no less than what a town council should be provided with.

And some of these sadistic town councillors, some of these sadistic mayors who get real t!'lrills out of impcsing this regulation - my colleague from Grand Bank ( ~lr. Thoms) said this is the last resort. ;·<ell ·, I am telling you, some of them are waiting for taxpayers to go in arrears so that they can put out the word, 'Cut off the water as fast as you can, boys! That son of a gun, he did not vote for me in the last election! Cut off ~...,_e water.' In the June election, Mr.

C~airman - not because I needed the vote in Carbonear - but ~..,_ere was a gentleman in t.."lat town who came to me and i1e said, ':4r. ~cores , the town council, boy, has cut off my water. ' He saiC., 'I have a wife, and six children all of school age, anC. I just simply do not have the money. I am on unemployment insurance and I am receiving' - I think it was ~ 100 a 1~eek or Sl•JS a week - a man, his wife and six children. He said, 'I just do not have the ~ney.

If the council would wait two weeks until my next cheque comes, I will proviC.e them with a payment.' I phoned t.h.e town council and r said, 'Look, t.his is the situation, it is a compassionate situation, a humane situation - let the man have two 'N"eeks of grace. 'Two weeks of grace! Go away, ~oy! so not be so foolish! \ie h ave gi ven hi m twelve mon t.~ s of grace a l read y . Cut off ~1e water~ Leave his six children wi~~out water for fo o d, far wasni~q Cis~es and cloL~es and for bathing. eut it off, ~ oy~' MR . STAGG: He must have been a ~i b e~al. c•IR. R.

HOORES: .U.l people in Carbonear are :;:.iberal s ! SO~tE tiu,;. :-!!:.HBE ?..S : !-tear, i1ear! .;nd I ask t11.e :-:U:-:.ister in o.ll seriousness :1.ow, I can gee :.J.? :-.ere ariC. I can reel on fo~ an ilour on Gl~5, shout a.r.C t121:1

Decen-.ber 6, 1979 Tape 1674 EC - 2 HR. R. ,!OORES: make a hullabaloo and what have you - bu.: in all seriousness, 11r. Cl1airma.n 1 I directed my cornrnen ts to the minister who is not listening now, he is talking to his predecessor who did not listen either when he was in the portfolio. I asked the minister, in all fairness to the working poor in this Province.

According to a statistic that I was reading, I think it was two months ago, outport :;ewfoundland rates with the Gaspe" region of Quebec as having the most working poor in Canada. :-low, they did not include in t.'lat, I do not think, t:.'le Indian and native populations of :1anitoba and t.'te other provinces out ;.;est, but :~ewfoundland has the highest rate of working poor in Canada. And if for no other reason, Mr.

Chairman, then this minister and ti1is government should give very serious consideration to wiping out - I do not know but t.'lat I might move an amendment to that, han. colleague from LaPoile (:·lr. :leary) - I do not know l:mt we will move an amendment - :1R. :<EARY: That it be deleted from the act. ~!R. R. MOORES: - t.'tat it be deleted fror. the act. I would have to write that, would I not? :1R. NEARY: o!R. R. HOORES: be deleted from t:.~is act. SOt1E rtON. :-IEHBERS: :•!R. CHAIRMAll: (Butt) No, no. Just move that (inaudible) . And it does not require a seconder. !1r. Chairman, I move that

Section 131 (

l) Hear, hear~ Order, please~ I will have to tell ti1e :J.on. gentleman t.'lat he cannot delete a

section of the act. MR. NEARY: : !R. C.!-iAI R.'1AN : delet~it entirely. .'lR. R. :..fOORES: MR. NEARY: wny? You can vote against it but you cannot A 9oint of order, :-1r. C.~airman . I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman, you can delete it. ·l21.2

December 6, 1979 MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): MR. NEARY: back in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Tape No. 1675 IB-1 Only last T!:lu.::s<lay we :1a...o (i:~audible) I will adjourn for a moment, okay? Get the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) Page 509,

section 6, "An amendment to leave out a clause is not in order as the proper course is to vote against a clause, standing part of the bill. consequently, it is out of order to propose to leave out "the only effective words of the clause or the words upon which the rest of the clause is dependent or to offer any amendment which is equivalent to a direct negative of the clause. MR. MOORES: MR. CHAIRMAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: 11R. CHAIRMAN: MR. MOORES: Mr. Chairman. The han. member for Carbonear. Oh, oh! Order, please! Order! Order, please! The han. member for Carbonear. Mr.

Chairman, on that, I do not think my colleagues are questioning your ruling. That is not their intent but I think it is their legitimate right to be confused and that is essentially - MR. CHAIRMAN: You have an opportunity to vote against it but you cannot delete it as pointed out in ::iskine :·lGy. MR. MOORES: You mean I cannot put forth an amendment to erase this piece of reform? That is not directed towards you, :'1r. Chairman, I am just thinking out loud. But I cannot because of the rules of the House but only because of the rules of the House, ask that this piece of reform legislation have a deletion. Mr.

Chairman, in closing my comments on this particular clause I would want the minister when he,presumably, gets up to reply to some of the comments, to inform all han. members of this House why that clause is there, why a town council which is by the way. a subsidiary of government, of the provincial government, directly. no question about itr it may wurk corporately as an i.:d<e~Jen~ent but it is not; i:c comes directly under this piece of :J2t3

December 6, ~979 Tape No . 1675 IB-2 !1R. .'!CORES: legislation here which gives uncold ?Qwers, untold dicc:acorial powers co c:he atml.scer and/o r che Lieucena.nt Governor in council, :/!ly ~s that: subsidiary oi government: allowed to swing ics big st~ck co bully and demean t.'le taxpayers,legicimate , innocent taxpayers in c:he colJJlluO.l.t:ies in this Province? !1R. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, a poinc: oz order. If ~y hon. colleague ~uld allow me - ~IR. CHAI~.AN (BUTTJ : A poin;: of order. A point. of order, Mr. Cba.u:man. This l.s in my colleague's inceresc. MR. C!!AiiU1AN : order, please !

MR. :.lEARY: 'lYe c annoc: allow, Mr. Chairman, chis decisl.on just made co go unnot i ced, '"'e cannoc: allow it co go on the record because only three or four days ago L~ this House I moved that: a clause, that a

section of che ace be deleted. It was debat.ed at great: l e."'gt.\ -::.;)

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1676 GH-1 MR. NEARY: amendment was in order. Now we have a decision that contradicts the precedent that has already been established in this House, and it has everybody thrown into chaos and confusion. I wonder if the Chairman would like to take a few minutes just to reflect on· this. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) Order, please! I have to adjourn momentarily for the Speaker to make the announcements for the Late Show. I now rise the Committee. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please!

As it is now five o'clock I can now inform the House that I have received notice of two matters for debate at 5: 30 when a motion to adjourn will b.e deemed to be before the House. Notice given by the han. member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of a question asked the han. the Premier and the subject matter, the announced CN increase on East coast ferries; and another matter, notice given by the han. member for Lapoile arising out of a question asked the han. Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.

Brett) and the subject matter safety on the Trans-Canada Highway, especially as far as the movement of tractor trailers is concerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: Order, please! I would like to continue, Mr. Chairman. The han. member for Lapoile. I do not want to put the Chair in an embarrassing position, but we have now a ruling made by the Deputy Chairman of Committees and we have - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) frivolous. MR. NEARY: Pardon? It is not frivolous, it is very, very, very important. You cannot allow this kind of thing to stand on the public record of this - MR.

DINN: May is (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Well, I do not care what 'May' is, but we have two decisions, two opposing decisions. Now, it has to be cle~~d up. I am not questioning Your Honour's ruling, I ·1215

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1676 GH-2 MR. NEARY: do not want to put the Chair in an embarrassing position but I believe either the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird), who was Deputy Chairman, was right and the hon. gentleman is wrong, or the hon. gentleman is right and the member for Humber West was wrong. It has to be one or the other. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, if I may. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: On a point of order, the President of When one wishes, first of all, and I would hope it would not come to this, but when one wishes to question which is,in effect,even though the han. member says he is not a ruling that is made by the Chair, there is an established procedure for it. As I say, I would certainly hope that it would not be necessary, you know, to go to this length. As I understood the ruling of the han. Deputy Chairman of Committees, the han. member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) brought in a motion to delete - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) here. MR.

MARSHALL: - no, no, the previous one - the han. member for Lapoile brought in a motion to delete Clauses 109 and 110 of the bill. A point of order was raised at the time, and the point o£ order was based on the fact that you could not delete - the amendment was not in order because it would defeat the principle of the bill itself. The Chair took it under advisement and when the Chair carne back, the Chair said that the amendment was, in fact, in order because, in the opinion of the Chair, the two sections concerned did not defeat the principle of the bill. They would not now.

The same criterion does apply, I mean, it does not affect the principle. The principle is there and it is definite that you cannot bring an amendment in Committee to defeat the principle of the bill, because the principle of the bill is obviously decided at second reading. I do not think there is any need to belabor that, all han. members will agree to it.

December 6, 1979 Tape No . 1676 GH- 3 Now, unfortunately, I was not - or , fortunately, .,.hichever way one may wish to view it - I was not in the Cnamber ~~ the time whe~ the ruling was made so I am speaking, you know, Erom what. ! . hear. I f =.he Chairman of the Commictee felt t.ha~ the amendme.'lt led in by t.he hon . member for CarbOne~ (t1.r. Moores) end ! have co confe ss at this time I d o not l<.now the subs tance of t.'"te amenamem:. Maybe it '"'as (inaud.ible) . - no, you say it is the same, but, l mean, you can bring in an amendment, the same,to delete a clause , ouc if that amendment ·1217

December 6, 1979 NR. ~lARS HALL: Tape No. 1677 IB-1 defeats the principle or, you know, affects the principle of the bill. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . NR. MARSHALL: Well, I mean that is for the Chair. This is my whole point, that is for the Chair. I would just point out that it does not necessarily mean that a ruling is inconsistent if, on the one hand, the Chairman says that an amendment to delete sections cannot be admitted because if that is brought in it will affect the principle of the bill and in the other case he allows ~t because it would affect.

I mean it is the Chairman's opinion that we are talking about. And, you know, in the realm of debate,particularly 1 you cannot get sacrosanct rules that you can never have an amendment to delete sections. You obviously cannot. So that is what I would sul:mit . as far as I know of it. When the hen. member gets up and says the Chair is being inconsistent, it does not necessarily mean so. NR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : MR. JAMIESON: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, I too regret that this point has been raised and has caused some difficulty.

I am not being in the least argumentative when I say this but surely I think we on this side and I suspect all hen. members would want to ensure that there is consistency with regard to how Committee procedures are carried on. My reason for saying that is that down the road, as we all know very well, something may come up one of these days which is completely on a different sort of subject, and one or the other of these will be quoted back as the precedent.

And now I say this in all difference to all hen. members who have occupied the Chairman's position in the last few weeks since we have met 1 but the fact of the matter is that my hen. colleague from Carbonear (Mr. Moores) in all sincerity and I am quite sure after very careful thought, asked himself how he was to proceed with what he genuinely believes and we on this side believe to be a portion of this bill that is not consistent with our views to say the very least.

Now, what I do suggest to the han. the House Leader is that he, having done that, based upon the precedent of last week . that it may very well be that there is a difference in the two amendments, I do not know. And I suggest that if that is the case then

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1&77 IB-2 MR. J AMI.ESON' it may well be . also , that both Chairmen •..;ere correc1: in their rulings..aur. to simp l y say that it is a matter of opinio n at a ?Qiticula r mome:'l~ in t:ime,! "''Ould certainly t:hink 1 md yield to the i:on. and learned gem:.leman ' s legal b~cl<<;round, is surely not t:he way for us to go . And I do not know wha t the alter:1ative is but perhaps if it were agreeable with r.he·- an.d I have :~ot consulted wir.h my colleague - we might. for the remaining r.ime or someclting proceed on to other clauses, to perhaps stand this, to give some opportunit:y :or eit her (

a) a resolutio n of the quesr.ion as to which is which, eit:her t:hat or find some other t:echnique which '"ill be equall~ ef:ect ive in terms of having my col~ea<;ue ~et his opposition and thaJ:. of members on tilis side on the record in an affective way. ~lR. . CHAIR.'t.ll.\1 (3u'TT) : Order, please: ! feel in this particular ca se that I am not .bound by precedent: because ! have found a correct procedure in ('lay and also in 3eauchesne . !!owever 1 r do wan t: to adjourn for a !:e1v moments to get furt:her clarification on this very impon.a.m:. - ! will recess for a fe•"' momen"t.s to get further clarification. ·1219

Decewber 6, 1979 Tape 1676 EC - 1 ~!R. CHAIR!'.AN: (Butt) I realize there is some inconsistency here. However, I do not feel ~~at I am bound by 9recedent found t.l1e correct 9rocedure in ~lay and .aeauchesrc.e. since I have AN <iON. :1E;.ffiER: What page in Beauci'1esne? ~L"<. CHAIRHAN: Beauchesne, page 233 (6). If you wish to appeal my ruling, ~~en ~~e Committee will rise and we will call in ~~e Speaker. :1R. JAl.'IIESON: :•IR. GiAIRMAJ.I: ;-tR. JAMIESON: Mr. Chairman. The han. the Leader of the 0pposition. Well, ~r.

Chairman, as I indicated in r:ry earlier remarks, the last thing in the '"orld, certainly, I "'" sure r:ry colleague from Carbonear (Mr. R. t!oores) or I, or anyone here wishes to do is either to embarrass the Chairman or tc question the ruling. I ~~ink it was a legitimate point of order, in view of the inconsistency, but I do not believe that any useful purpose ·,o~ould be served by employing the technique of asking ~~e Speaker in to ~~allenge ~1e ruling. I ~~ink, however, it would be useful if either today or at some point, we got clarification as to just what ~~e distinctions are, what the difference was.

Well, certainly, if there is ~~yone '"ho would want furt:"'ler clarification, we could - SOME HON . MEI·!BE RS : ;1R. CHAIP.MAN: :-tR. R. t-!OORES: :!R. CHAI.:oMAi': Carbonear. :·!R. R. :!CORES: Carry on, t1r. Chairman. Shall Clauses 131 tnrough 140 carry? Mr . w~ai rman. The han. the me~ber for Carbonear. 11r, Chairman, I would like to - I am sorcy, the ~1on. t.."'le member for Oh, oh! I :night say, ~1r. Chairman, t."lat I was holding t...'-1e floor at the time of t.'-le interruption. However, to my colleague from Grand Sank (:·lr. Thoms), I might as '"ell s9eak for four ~i.:1utes. /~220

;;;< fiO:~ . :-!Z:·!BER: .-!..~. R. :-:coRES: :rom Granc! oan.!<. :-IR. Qi..:>..L.~IO\N: (i3Ut:t) :-L~. TiiO~!S : :::c - 2 (!nauciible) yield . Jkay , 1 will yi~l~ co~ colleague :'he hon. t."'e me:Ilber Eor Grand Sank . ~lr.

Chai:man, : would like t:o :r.ove a.-: amencL-,ent :o Clause 131, sub - sectl.on 1 , insertinc: o .o words and 'In addi : ion co any ot:ne r remec:J.es ~at ::.:1e cou.'lcil nas to en fo r ce payme1::t: of ::."'e :ax L::!posed under ~is act:, a:1d af:er givin g six ~nt:hs notice, che counc:~.l :nay c!is connec: :he 3e:vice ?roVl.deci ~~' a ·,:ace~ sys~e::~, SC!',.·e.:.age syst-2i.\ ~ = 'Na";._er a:;,c se~.~ e~:1;; syscem where che ::ax is in arrears . ' SO:'iE iiON . o:E:·tB£ ~: :-!.". C!Al~".;..'<: i~ ~avour, •n.ye', conc:-ary, ~::ay'. :·HL JEAS.Y: .-~~ . 1'::c . .:s: ;•_,__ C~t"\!~·:A'I: ~!R • .

IE ~: ){.,. :'HO~:S: :-IR. ~~A?.Y : :1?.. '7:!0Z.;;5: :-lR. . ~EA.RY : : he ~at:e Snow so you c an carry on. Hear , ~ear! Shall -;.'le amenc.menc car~f ? All ::.1osc iiolci O:l no.~. .i: t i s C.e!:lat.Wle, olr. Chal.r:nan . The ~on. -:_,e c:e~De: :or ta.?oile. Hr. Chai~an. - Go anead. Do you wan1:. to car ~t on? ::o, yc1: gc ahead. .;o , -;o ahe aci . : am going to speak o r. The hon . t:he :nemcer for Gra.-:d Sank - Cay f t .:eel :.'lac this ?arrlcul az clause is a:1 cr:erous, a verJ onerous ::a..!Sa.

A1:. :...~e cJ.::...-e :::at. : :..e:-.. c;.or.ec =-..-:.~s, 1~ •..Jcs sue: ":J"! soc:e!..oC:l ..1c=oss ::.-:a.: ·t221

!:lecember 6,- l9i9 Tape 1679 EC - l MR. THOMS: at one time it was illegal to be a pickpoc~et and people were hung for picking pockets. I can only assume that none of us today would agree that that particular law should have stayed on ~~e statute books. I find this one particularly disgusting to me and if I cannot get the clause deleted completely, then at least I would like to see a person who finds :1imself in the unfortunate position of not being able to pay a particular water tax - I would like to see that person at least i n a position where he is given six months grace. Mr.

Chairman, ' I notice it is now 5:30 P.M. so I would like to adjourn the debate. MR. CHAIR!-!AN: Order, please! It now being 5: 30 P . ~!., I rise the Committee. On motion, ~~at the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. ~!r. Speaker returned to t.'J.e C.'1ai r. ~!R. SPEAKER: (Simms) South. :m. C iiJRMAi<: (Butt) rhe hon. the member for Conception Bay The Committee of ~"l.e Whole h ave considered ~~e matters to them referred, have made scrne progress and ask l eave to sit again. On motion, report received and adopced, Committee ordered to sit ag~n on tomorrow. l1R.

SPE."'-'(ER: It being 5:30 P.:1., a motion to adjour n is deemed to be before ~"l.e House. A matter for deb ate raised ':Jy t.~e i>on. tile mel!':Oer for LaPoile (Mr. ~< eary) is the announced increase of East Coast ferries. The hon . ~~e ~edbe r for LaPoi l e. :··tr . Spea..lcer, memcers of the neus e •Here shocked and amazed to learn yesterday ·.-hen ·.-;e put some questions to ~'l.C ?re~ier abc~t L~e 10 per cent iucrease in the East Coast ferDJ r2tes, t.,;,-:a~ ':...1.e ?r2 mier ·.<~as v<:r.f vague a..~d. general in :1is :-o:s_?onse a.!ld ~iC. not

~cernbe~ 6, 1979 Tape 1679 EC - 2 seem to know very much about it Ul''ltil it ·was brought to his attention by the Hinister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Srett). that they had a letter on record since July of this year from the Minister of Transport (l·lr. :-lazanl<owski) which indicated ~~at ~~ere was going to be a 10 per cent increase in the rates on ~~e East Coast ferry. Now, :1r. Speaker 1 it is unfortunate that ~~is announcement of an increase in rates comes at a time when the people of ~~is Province are staggering under the high cost of living in Newfoundland and Labrador.

They cannot stand any more increases in anything. People are beginning to ask themselves how ~~ey are going to cope with the high electricity rates, with the high cost of heating fuel and gasoline, and now on top of this, an increase in the cost of living. Because, Hr. Speaker, whether we care to admit it in this House or not, a 10 per cent increase on ~~e East Coast ferries will hit the tractor trailer in<iustry harder ~fJ.an any~~ing else, even ~"'ough ~"'le Hir.ister of Tourism (;·Ir.

Po>~er) who was speaking for the government tb.e o~fJ.er day, put up token resistance, told the people of ~~is Province ~"!at on behalf of the government he had sent a telex to Otta>~a but he did not expect to get any results. The minister 1 speaking on behalf of the government, said ~"lis publicly - 'I sent a telex up to Otta>~a. ~<ow, if t:.te Government of Canada' he said, 'had improved the ferry service, L~en ~~ey might be justified in asking for a 10 per cent increase.

So ~e do not expect' he said, 'to get any results' from our little token resistance t~at we have put up; a mere telex to the Government of Canada. c•low that is not good enough! !1r. Speaker, if ti1is government is going to declare •,;ar on Otta>~a, ~"len they may as well go flat out. Transportation is a very, ver1 vi tal, important part of the economy of ~~is Province and this 10 per cent is going to be devastating -to people •N"ho cannot no1.; cope •,;i til t.'-le cost of livins. And it is going to nit those on fixed inco<!le because it ·,;il:i. oe passed on to the consumer, make no aoubt about t:lat.

The ?resent Leader of the 0pposi tion, when he •,;as in Ottawa, managed to keep tile :.i=. on any inc=-eases for years, ~ut as soon as t:.'l.e government cnar:.geci, off comes t~e lid ... 11223

o~c~r.~cr 6, 1979 1 ape ''IO. 16 80 :·l:<.. S. Nj;;i\R"<' As .;::on a;; bully Loy Cros:Oie got Ul! in Wc.tar.\a, off cor.:es t..."le lid! Anc. now they are al1ot .. ·ecl to sock it tc ti.18 £-eo_t..lc o£ ~ .. i.s ~rcvinct:: ·...,·itil o.not!:..er 10 per cent increase, reall .. {1 in t.:J.e cost of livingJ it i;; going to nit the r..ovement of freigut. The ~.3-nister is conce=ed abou·