Manitoba Hansard — 27 May 1996 (Sitting 40, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 40- 1:30 p.m., Monday, May 27, 1996

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOW A Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charles wood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Ross mere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River &rty N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. PC . PC . PC . N.D.P.

2725 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 27, 1996 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Ms. Diane McG ifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I am rising this afternoon on a matter of privilege and at the first opportunity that I have had to do so since examining the Hansard of Thursday, May 23. This matter will be followed, according to the rules, by a substantive motion which I will introduce at the end of my comments. Recently, Madam Speaker, we have been discussing in this House the aftermath of the Headingley riots and the early release of sexual offenders.

On Tuesday, May 21, I asked the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) about the release of, and here I quote from Hansard, "several sexual offenders," and I underlined that my expression was, and again I quote, "several sex offenders." This expression is directly quoted from Hansard. The minister responded by saying, and again I quote from Hansard: "There were in fact three inmates who were injured at the time of the riot and these three inmates were, to my knowledge, considered close to the end of sentence, and though they did not participate, they were in fact assessed by correctional officers.

They were released under the direction of professional correctional officers." I point out and underline that the minister spoke of the release of three sex offenders, that I did not in my question ever cite that number or ask about three inmates. The number was entirely the minister's. After a series of utterly amazing obfuscation and attempts to dilute the substance of Question Period, the minister concluded this series of questions by saying, and I quote from Hansard: "I have explained that there were three. . . .

Their release was on ... humanitarian grounds." On Wednesday, May 22, I asked the minister about 11 sex offenders and again obfuscation was the order of the day. The minister made no comments on my numbers and made no emendations to the information she had put on the record on Tuesday, May 21. Then on Thursday, May 23, in response to another question from me which cited 11 inmates released early, among them three rapists and eight child molesters, many of whom had refused treatment, the minister made a decision, I suppose, to come clean.

She said, of 44 sex offenders before the riot, 3 1 remain in prison, leaving 13 as the number released. The minister accounted for five, one of whom was released on bail. Eight, I presume, are floating about various Manitoba communities. This minister then proceeded to attack members opposite, which would include me, for publicly speaking about four inmates. A careful perusal of the record will show that I never cited the number four, not once. A careful perusal of the record will show, as I have just shown, that the number of early released inmates made a quantum leap from three to 13, about 400 percent.

First there were three and then there were 13. This sounds like the refrain to a song rather than ministerial information. In between, the opposition were accused of chasing the media by saying there were four early released inmates. *

(1335) Madam Speaker, I know that on Friday, May 25, the minister said in Estimates on Justice that she was never told and never asked about the state of temporary absences, leaving me to wonder how she could speak so authoritatively about sex offenders on the previous Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, leaving me to wonder if the minister knows anything about the intimate workings of Manitoba's prisons.

Madam Speaker, to be frank, I find it staggering and insulting to be asked to believe that this Minister of Justice, in the wake of the largest, most damaging prison riot in the history of Manitoba was so misinformed, so totally Jacking in knowledge and facts that she did not know on Tuesday, May 21, or Wednesday, May 22, nearly a month after the riot, that 13 sex offenders, including one on bail, had been released. Common sense says that she had these facts at her fingertips and made a deliberate decision to save face to cultivate her reputation

2726 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1996 as tough, a law-and-order Minister of Justice and, conseque ntly, she made a deliberate decision to mislead this House. How can I, as a member of an elected constituency , do my job, fulfill my duties when the Minister of Justice deliberately misinf orms this Chamber? How can I, as the critic for the Status of Women, work to promote the full range of services and protection which women are guaranteed when this minister compromises my ability to function by misleading the Chamber?

How indeed can any member perform his or her duty when a minis ter provides misleading inf ormation? Madam Speaker, this is not according to Beauchesne Rule 30, a dispute over the facts. This is a dispute over the integrity of the Minister of Justice and, by implication, an infringement on the rights of other members to truthf ul answers, for while I understand that minist ers are not required to answer questions, I un derstand, too, that when a minister does answer, truth must inf orm that answer. From three to 13, an increase of 400 percent.

The facts speak for themse lves, demonstrating an ina bility, incapacity or unwillingness to deal with the fundamental issue. Madam, Speaker, I ask you to examine this situation and rule on it. I move, seconded by the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackinto sh), that this House do censure the Minist er of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) for a breach of privileges of its members in the matter of making deliberately misleading inaccurate statements about the release of sex offenders in the wake of the Headingley riot, and that this matter be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. Hon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, before I respond, I wonder if I might have a copy of the member's motion. Madam Speaker: The honourab le government House leader has requested a copy of the member's motion . #r

(1340) Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, a question of privilege, as cited in Beauchesne on a number of occasions and elsewhere in learned documents relating to parliamentary procedure, is a matter of extreme importance and extreme rarity, or ought to be. There ought not to be matters of privil ege being raised very often in any parliamentary forum. I looked at the member's motion, and thank you for having that distributed, but the fact of the matter is, based upon what I heard her say, the member for Osborne (Ms.

McGiff ord), and what is referred to in the motion that was brought before us, it is very clearly a dispute over the facts. Madam Speaker, this is a she-said-this, she-said-that type of thing. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. The fact of the matter is that the member for Osborne wanted to stand up and make a political grandstand play by censuring the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) over a bunch of facts that were alleged or unalleged.

Clearly on page 76 of our own rules, it states: "a dispute arising between two members as to allegation of facts does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege." Madam Speaker, that is quite clear, and I ask you to rule against the matter of privilege because clearly a dispu te over the facts does not represent the basis for parliamentary privilege. Simply to stand up and want to grandstand, as the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) has done and now the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) is doing, is something that ought not to occur in parliamentary forums because it is not a matter of privilege.

Mr . Doug Martindale (Deputy Opposition House Leader ): Madam Speaker, on the same matter of privilege, I believe that the member for Osborne has made a very good case for her motion. First of all, according to Beauchesne, 6th edition, the matter must be raised at the first opportunity. Today is the first opportunity that we have had a chance to review Hansard from Thursday, May 23 . It was on all our desks today at 1:30 p.m. Secondly, the member must prove a prima facie case. What does prima facie mean? Prima facie means on the face of the record. It means obvious from the record; it -

May 27, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2727 means the case is clear from the record. What we have here is a very serious allegation about what the minister knew, about what the minister said, and what the minister did not acknowledge. Under parliamentary tradition and parliamentary responsibility, even if the minister did not know what was going on in her department, she is still responsible, and she should not put false information on the record in answer to a question. She should take it as notice, she should find out what the accurate and correct information is and only at that time respond.

That is the reason why our member said that it is deliberately misleading to the House to provide inaccurate and wrong information, and why you should rule in favour of this motion to censure this minister. In conclusion, I hope that you will agree that there is a matter of privilege here, that the privilege of many members has been abrogated because this minister is not providing clear, forthright and truthful statements about activities for which she is responsible as the minister responsible for this department and ultimately the minister responsible for all the goings-on at Headingley jail.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable members for their advice and I will take this matter under advisement and report back to the House. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Home Care Services Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Donna Porter, Norine Bassett, Mabel Amendt and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr .

Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Brenda Beland, Andre Beland, Gordon Watchko and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Wendy Logan, Doug Logan, Shirley Logan and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. *

(1345) READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Home Care Services Ma dam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the house to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all ser vice delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have res ulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service prov iders will lose their job� as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider rever sing their plan to privatize home care services.

2728 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1996 The Salvation Army Catherine Booth Bible College Mada m Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. The petition of The Salvation Army Catherine Booth Bible College. Praying for the passing of

an act to change the name from The Salvation Army Catherine Booth Bible College to The Salvation Army William and Catherine Booth College. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr . Marcel Laurendeau (Chairpe rson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. *

(1350) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the 1996-97 Revenue Estimates for the Department of Finance. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern Affairs): Madam Speaker, I wish to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 1996-97 for the Department ofNorthern Affairs. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister charged with the adminis tration of The Civil Service Act): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the 1995 Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Board.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 67-The Manitoba Telephone System Reorganization and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the admin istration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that leave be given to introduce BiU 67, The Manitoba Telephone System Reorganization and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi concernant Ia reorganisation de Ia Societe de telephone du Manitoba et apportant des modifications correlatives), and that the same now be received and read a first time.

His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table a copy of the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 68-The Farm Lands Ownership Amendment, Real Property Amendment and Registry Amendment Act Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that leave be given to introduce Bill 68, The Farm Lands Ownership Ame ndment, Real Property Amendment and Registry Ame ndment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia propriete agricole, Ia

Loi sur les biens reels et Ia

Loi sur l'emegistrement foncier), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I should also table His Honour's message with this. Motion agreed to. -

May 27, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2729 Bill 69-The Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cumm ings), that leave be given to introduce Bill 69, The Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les courtiers en immeubles, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table that message. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have this afternoon twelve members of the Order of the Eastern Star from Minnesota, U.S.A., under the direction of Mary Felton.

Also in the public gallery we have this afternoon fifty Grade 5 students from Carpathia School under the direction of Mrs. Carole Arenson and Ms. Shona Falk. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. *

(1355) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Teaching Profession Collective Bargaining Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the document released on collective bargaining for teachers last week certainly did not reflect the views expressed by the public at the public hearings that took place across the province. Subsequent to that release, a number of partners in education have been saying that the Conservative government has been going to a too far extreme in their proposals on collective bargaining. The public wants a partn ership between teachers, between parents, between trustees.

Even the Manitoba Association of School Trustees said it went further than they had considered and this will have a negative impact on the morale of teachers in our schoolrooms. I would like to ask the Premier, why has the government chosen to ignore public views of partnership and why has it chosen this path of divisiveness, confr ontation and conflict with teachers and trustees in our education system? Hon. Linda Mcin tosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I should indicate that I met with the Manitoba Association of School Trustees president last Friday.

She indicated to me that they were extremely pleased that they finally were going to get some relief from the number of items that have been creeping into the bargaining process. Indeed, she did indicate that while they did not get everything they had asked for, they did indeed get more than they had expected, because in the last I 0 years no government has ever been willing to listen to them. So while they put forward this request on an almost annual basis, they have never had a positive response. When the member says that they got more than they expected, they did, but they did not get all that they asked.

I indicate, in terms of balance and fairness, we are indicating that we do believe we have something fair and balanced. If the teachers had permitted me to attend their convention on Friday as scheduled, I could have provided them with some of the details that would clear up some of the misunderstandings they have around things like items that never have been negotiated that will continue to be part of The Public Schools Act as before. Mr .

Doer: I am surprised the Minister of Education would make such critical comments of the previous Minister of Education, and the previous Minister of Education, and the other previous Minister of Education in her comments here in the House. They have been in office for the last eight ofthose 10 years. I guess taking shots at everybody is the style of the Minister of Edu cation rather than solving problems and dealing in partnership with Manitobans. It is crucial that we have an agreement on the collective bargaining process for teachers and trustees that has

2730 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1996 consensus between all the parties, the parents, the teachers and the trustees. It is crucial that we have the kind of balance and partnership that all Manitobans are desiring and recommending to this government. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), will he put this Tory steamroller on hold in terms of collective bargaining for teachers?

Will he put this on hold and refer this matter back to the teachers, back to the trustees, back to the parental advisory committees that have been struck all across this province so that we can move into the 21st Century with partnership and consensus on collective bargaining, rather than on the Tory extreme collective bargaining agenda that we see from the Premier? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, in addressing the

preamble, I will indicate that there has been a lot of consultation. The previous two Ministers of Education in this government had indicated-and in fact it was formally announced in January 1995 by my predecessor, Mr. Clayton Manness, since retired. At that time nearly two years ago, he formally announced that the collective bargaining process would be given some adjustment to reflect the 1994 resolution passed by the trustees in convention. A number of consultation processes have taken place since then, culminating now in the action that is soon to be taken.

Madam Speaker, there has been a lot of misunderstanding surrounding the intent of the legislation. In addition to the conf usion shown by members opposite, I also heard the previous MTS president on the air today very confused about what the legislation will do. Madam Speaker, again I regret that the teachers chose not to have me come and explain the details, but given that they did not want to do that, we will move to have the details available with the distribution of the bill, which is currently being drafted.

I think they will be very pleasantly surprised to find that they have been misinf ormed very substantially on a number of key items. lllr

(1400) Mr . Doer: Madam Speaker, the present collective bargaining process has allowed the parties to negotiate nine divisional settlements of zero percent across the province . The minister is now substituting this extreme measure in collective bargaining that they did not campaign on in the last election campaign, and they are now proposing to take on many items that were formally negotiated and arbitrable under the collective bargaining process and ban that.

How can the government cut $43 million out of public education funding in three out of the last four years and cut and squeeze school divisions, forcing up to 200 or 30 0 layoffs in this school year alone, and then the government says it is fair, it is a fair collective bargaining process to ban layoffs as a arbitrable matter in the neg otiation process. How can you cut money and ban, according to your own document, the ability to take layoff provisions to arbitration as would be fair in any other collective bargaining process? Mr s.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, there were many substantive questions or series of questions posed by the Leader. I hope that I get to answer each of them so that it does not appear as if I am unwilling to answer them. I should say, Madam Speaker, at the beginning, that yes, there are this year nine settlements that appear to be coming in at zero for the first year, not taking into account the annual incremental cost, which is substantial to divisions. I might indicate that since 1986 school divisions have been trying to get a zero.

So it has taken 10 years under the current system for a board to be able to treat-nine divisions agreeing to that as the first year of some multiyear settlements, not accounting for the increased cost of increm ents, which is substantial as I indicate . We did campaign on this, Madam Speaker. I am sorry to correct the member, but as I indicated, it was January 1995 that the previous minister indicated there would be changes and substantial review of collective bargaining in Manitoba.

As I recall, that was prior to the election and it was the subject of some discussion during the election, so the member is wrong there . Secondly, Madam Speaker, the member perhaps is not familiar with The Public Schools Act and that is why he does not understand recommendation 6(

a) in the committee report which indicates a list of items that are shown as non-negoti able. It is very important that the member understands that those are items that are currently non-negotiable or have components of them that are non-negotiable in The Public Schools Act. There is -

May 27, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2731 no change there. They have non-negotiable components in them right now. Teaching Profession Collective Bargaining Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, we have a government in Manitoba which is deliberately driving inequality across the province, whether it is in ministerial or Crown corporation wages, in government grants, in contracts, in increases to private schools. There is one world for the friends of the government and there is another world for the rest of us. It is very difficult to explain- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley, to pose her question now. Ms. Friesen: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is very difficult to explain to a generation which has grown up in a more balanced and equal Manitoba that cuts to education are cuts to welfare that are being done by a government which deliberately chooses to widen the gap in our society. I want to ask the Minister of Education to explain how her proposals to use local economies as a major criterion for determining teachers' salaries will maintain equality in education across Manitoba. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, in response to the

preamble, yes, there is a world for the friend of government. The friend of government, for us, is the general public of Manitoba, the people of Manitoba- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education, to complete her response. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The public and the people of Manitoba is the one spec ial-interest group that has been too long ignored by governments in this province. It is a special-interest group that we intend to listen to, and the people of Mani toba elect school trustees to decide the schooling that they want.

Those school trustees speak for the people and we are for the people. We know that in terms of equality, in terms of ability to pay there are ways of setting criteria for ability to pay, such as those defined in the final offer selection legislation that the people across there love so much. Final offer selection had ability to pay written right in it, and they wanted that, they wanted that for everybody. So I do not see why they would not want it for the people of Manitoba. We have equalization abilities in our funding formulas; we also have

definitions that can surround ability to pay that will build in protection for employee groups and make it clear what terms of reference can be considered, not mandated but considered. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us what the impact of her proposals will be in Winnipeg where the income disparities range, for example, from an average household income in my riding of $19,000 to an average household income in the minister's riding of$43,000? Will the minister tell us, is it her intention to promote teachers' salary differences across the city in the same ratio? Mr s.

Mcintosh: No, Madam Speaker, there will be criteria laid down that will offset the member's concerns. The member should know that the ability-to-pay criteria outlined-say, for example, in final offer selection-had the fairness that they thought existed. There are ways to determine fairness, and we will do that. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the mmtster confirm that on page 10 oftlte Render-Dyck report it says wages for comparable employees in the division are going to be one of the factors in developing teachers' salaries?

Will she tell us what the impact of that will be in rural Manitoba where, for example, in Swan River the household income is $20,000, in the Minister of Highways' (Mr. Findlay) it is $50,000? Is it her intention to return to the 1930s? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, the member seems to already have a definition of ability to pay in her mind that does not sound much like the definition of ability to pay that we will end up with.

2732 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1996 The Render-Dyck report has indicated that we should have school boards at least able to have their ability to pay considered in front of an arbitrator. We agree with that. The how-to we will spell out in legis lation. The final definition of ability to pay, I think the member will find quite to her liking and so I would encourage her to be part of the discussiop when it comes and look forward to her assistance in defining ability to pay in a fair and just manner.

We have accepted that ability to pay is more than just an unlimited right to raise taxes and there will be many components to that. The teachers themselves had a definition for ability to pay that they found acceptable and that is being taken into consideration as well. Labour Relations Act Amendments Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, on April l5 of this year the Minister of Labour infonned the Manitoba Federation of Labour that he would provide an opportunity for labour to view the draft labour relations amendment prior to the tabling of the legislation.

The minister then cance lled two subsequent meetings stating that the legisla tion was not ready. I want to ask the Minister of Labour to inf onn working Manitobans how it is that his legislation briefing note on The Labour Relations Amendment Act changes was given to the media business reporter when the minister inf ormed labour representatives that the inf onnation was not ready. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, if the member will check his calendar, on that date he was in Estimates with me, and the MFL had a meeting to discuss with me proposals to amend The Labour Relations Act.

My deputy minister indicated to them that he would be prepared to discuss those amendments with him and they refused to attend. fr (14 10) Mr . Reid: Can the Minister of Labour indicate specifically, who is requesting the amendments to The Labour Relations Act in the province of Manitoba? Who in labour is requesting it, and how many? Who in the business community, and how many? Mr. Toews: Tbe member for Thompson has a comment. Well, maybe you could stand up and say it, please? Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I just want to indicate that what I was saying, from my seat to the minister, was that in Thompson he called the current Labour Relations Act a balanced piece of legislation. In fact, he told that to the Rotary Club. Perhaps he would like to put that on the record again and explain why he has changed his labour legislation to attack workers. Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, I just wanted the House to know that the opposition House leader has now set a new all-time record for points of order in a session.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honou rable member for Thompson, the honourable member indeed does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. fr fr fr Madam Speaker: The honour able Minis ter of Labour, to complete his response. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, but in fact the question is a very good one, even if it is not in order. I in fact have said that the act does have a balance between employers and unions.

The problem with the act is that there is no balance between unions and their accoun tability to workers, and that is what these amendments are all about. That is where there needs to be a measure of balance. For the past year, I have been speaking with absolutely anyone who wants to speak about The Labour Relations Act, and those amendments are in fact a reflection of much of those discussions with unions, with employees and with employers. Mr .

Reid: No answer on the specifics of the question, Madam Speaker, and in the Estimates we were finished prior to the minister's meeting time, I would like to infonn him of that- -

May 27, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2733 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Transcona, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member was recognized for a final supplementary question. Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Labour explain why he has included amendments to The Labour Relations Act for this province which were specifically rejected by the Labour Management Review commission in this province? Why has he included suggestions that he put to the commission that were rejected by them in the legislation that he has brought forward? Mr .

Toews: There is no one group in this province which has total knowledge about what is correct for our Labour Relations Act. In government, we listen to all groups. We take into account very seriously what that Labour Management Review Committee has said. We have taken that into account and we have drafted our bill accordingly. That bill will be presented to this House, and I will be prepared to debate each and every

section as to why it is important to give workers democratic rights in this province. Headingley Correctional Institution Early Releases Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. Right after the Headingley riot, the minister wanted Manitobans to think she was in control and now she wants us to think that she is not, that she knew nothing about the early releases and temporary passes of inmates, for example, and did not ask.

My question for the minister: Would she now tell us, in addition to the 63 inmates let out on temporary absences following the riot-and indeed I think that number the minister now says is higher-would she tell us how many were also released not just temporarily but released outright? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, there is no question that this time period has been an extremely difficult one for the Corrections division of the Department of Justice, which has, I believe, tried very hard to bring forward information in a timely way in as accurate a way as possible.

I have been very carefully trying to bring forward that information as it comes to me to update it as it has been updated, to correct it if in fact there were corrections to be made. That has been the way that I have dealt with all of the information. As the member knows, there was the Headingley riot. The first important issue there was the public safety, including that of the guards. Then the next issue that I dealt with immediately and stand by is that we did call an independent review. That is the way the situation has been taken control of in the interests of public safety.

Madam Speaker, the members across the way have asked me for specific numbers. I am currently in the Estimates of the Department of Justice and will attempt to provide those numbers as we get to the Corrections line. Mr . Mackintosh: Would the minister, who could not give that one-word answer to that question, tell us now, one month after the riot, why she herself cannot tell Manitobans, for example, the number of pedophiles released, the number of rapists, when their sentences were to end, how many refused programming, what supervision is in place, when the victims were told of each release?

Important questions, Madam Speaker, Manitobans deserve answers to from the person accountable to them. Mr s. Vodrey: I have endeavoured to give information on an almost daily basis in regard to questions which have been asked about the profile of certain inmates, individuals who have been released on temporary absences or who now may have reached the end of their sentence. These appear to be very simple questions but they are very simple questions with very complex answers.

They are in fact extremely complex answers which require a great deal of detail, and we are gathering information always in response to questions. I have been delivering that as quickly as I can and in as timely a fashion as I can. Mr . Mackintosh: One month later, does the minister, who has a wilful lack of consistent answers for Manitobans-in fact, she admits now she does not even have questions for her own department. It is called wilful blindness.

2734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1996 Does the minister have any policy or administrative direction or control over her department, or is she just her department's PR officer? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I have two answers to the question of the member opposite. First of all, in speaking of wilful blindness, there was no such wilful and deliberate blindness as that of the member for St.

Johns on the day of the riot when he met with the RCMP in my office and was advised to not comment while the time period of negotiations was taking place and the member opposite wilfully decided to ignore that information and act in his own political grandstanding. Secondly, the member opposite- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1420) Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, would you request the minister to refrain from petty, personal issues which are not truthful? I have risen on a point of order already. She talks about rigorous confin ement, will she rigorously confine herself to the truth and reality? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns does not have a point of order. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, to complete her response. Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Then, as I have prefaced all of my answers, our decisions were taken in the interests of public safety, unlike the member opposite who on Friday admitted to the media that, no, he had not bothered to report to the police two inmates who had been released because he just did not have time. He had time to call a press conference. He had time to huff and puff about all his other issues, but in the interests of public safety, he has not taken any steps in that regard. In fact, he has acted against that. Crown Corporations Privatization Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

We in the Liberal Party are quite concerned in terms of the way in which this government is looking at privat ization of Crown corporations. We see the value and recognize the value of our Crown corporations-MTS in terms of the communication network, Hydro in terms of the cheapest power in Canada being provided to Manitobans, MPIC in terms of affordable insurance for all. My question specific to the Premier is, can the Premier give us assurances that MPIC and Manitoba Hydro are not going to reach the same fate as MTS? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will just simply say to the member opposite, as I have said to others who have asked that question, we have no plans to proceed with the privatization at the present time. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can the Premier tell us why it is we should believe the Premier on MPIC and Manitoba Hydro, given what happened with MTS? Mr . Filmon: Well, Madam Speaker, the member opposite wants to play politics with this. It is his party that privatized the Canadian National Railway and then he says that he is the great saviour of Crown corporations. It is absolutely ridiculous.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Lamou reux: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I would request that the Premier be somewhat relevant to the question that was posed and give a straightforward answer as to why we should believe him now, given what happened with MTS. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. ••• -

May 27, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 273 5 Madam Speaker: The honourab le First Mini ster, to complete his response. Mr. Filmon: I know the member for Inkster has some credibility problems when, on the one hand, he advocates having three casinos, adding two more casinos, and then he tells us that there is too much gambling in the province. Then he says he is the friend of Crown corporations when his party has privatized the Canadian National Railway. He has credibili ty problems. The fact of the matter is we will continue to act in the best interests of the people of Manitoba in all that we do. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, lessons of credibility are something this Premier needs more than anyone else inside this Chamber. Can the Premier give us assurances that public hearings will be held before any decisions regarding MPIC and Manitoba Hydro, any future decisions on these two Crown corporations, will the Premier give us the assurance to public hearings? Mr. Filmon: Those corporations do public consultations on a regular basis. Their management comes before committees of the Legislature on an annual basis at least. We continue to provide for as much open dialogue as possible on issues that face Manitoba ns.

I would say this, it is very easy for members opposite to always be opposed to everyth ing, but we in government have to make decisions in the best interests of the people of Manitoba and take responsibility for those decisions. We will continue to do that. Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Privatization Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would like to address, as follow-up, these questions to the Minist er responsible for MPIC. Since the establishment of Autopac in 1971- and I am pleased to say I had some

part in bringing Autopac into this- since then Manitobans have experienced about the lowest auto insurance rates in Canada while obtaining comprehensive protection from financ ial losses resulting from vehicle accidents . The Insurance Bureau of Canada has now approached this government with a proposal to take over the physical damage side of auto insurance, leaving MPI with the bodily injury portion.

My question to the minister is-specifically the Premier may say there are no plans-but I want to ask the minist er: Are there any studies going on of the possibil ity of shutting down Autopac in whole or in part, and, specifically, will he advise the people of Manitoba whether he will be having future meetings with the Insurance Bureau to explore this possibi lity in future? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the adminis tration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): There are no studies underway, and I intend to keep the door of my office open to anyone who wants to speak to me. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Has the minister seen any of the results of an opinion survey on Autopac, apparently being conducted by the Insur ance Bureau of Canada, and will he share these results with this Assembly? Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of, nor have I seen that study. Certainly, if they share it with me, I would be more than glad to share it with anyone else who is interested and will accept it on that basis.

But I want to also point out that the corporation has been doing a lot of work itself in terms of reviewing with the public, both by request and by public forum, so that it can improve the service and make sure that its rates arc appropriate and the services it provides are appropriate. Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Minister responsible for MP IC confirm that the total or partial privatization or indeed shutdown, if you will, of Autopac will ultimately lead to much hi gher auto insur ance rates for Manitobans with less financial security for those involved in vehicle acciden ts? *

(1430) Mr. Cummings: Of course I cannot confirm that because, as I indicated, there have not been any studies that have been done in that respect, but there is a significant body of inf ormation which is available which I am sure the member is as cognizant of as I am, that Manitoba Public Insur ance rates, automobile insurance rates today are very competitive and the coverage is significantly generous in relationship to all other plans in this country, and that, it seems to me, provides a fair body of support for the process that we have in place today.

2736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1996 Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Annual Report Release Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, 1 have a question to the Minister responsible for MPIC. Given that the minister has changed the MPIC year end from October 31, 1995, to February 29, '96, inventing a new 16-month year, I would like to ask the minister, can the minister confirm that damaging negative financial information was hidden from the public through the election period and remains hidden concerning the extent of losses at the MPIC?

I would like to know when the minister will make the annual report public. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister char ged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corpo ration Act): Madam Speaker, Manitoba Public Insurance publishes a quarterly report which I presume the member has either ignored, misread or does not understand, because we have made every attempt to make sure that information is available to the public and available as completely as possible on a quarterly basis. I am really baffled by the approach that he is taking to this question.

If there is a concern, I would be more than pleased to address it. Financial Status Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, the minister is obviously unaware that his corporation has changed their accounting year, and in fact they have not come out with a quarterly report since last October. I would like to ask the minister, can the minister confmn that this report when it does come out will show losses as high as $60 million? Can he confirm that? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administr ation of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the 16-month report of the corporation has been one that has been flagged as a format that the corporation was going to enter into for about, I believe, the last year and a half since it has been made publicly known that that was the direction the corporation is going.

I will not confirm any numbers that the member is throwing about, but it should be no surprise to anyone, consid ering that during I believe it was the month of January, we indi cated publicly, and there was a fair bit of discussion in the media, that the Manitoba Public Insurance was recording record daily losses, record weekly losses and record monthly claims in terms of total numbers of accidents. But I can also confirm that in the insu rance business those numbers rise and fall, and in fact interim numbers, indications towards the beginning of the last couple of months, are very favourable. Mr .

Ma loway: Madam Speaker, can the minister confirm then that the $60 million in losses would be made up of $13 million in claims over the winter related to weather and another $4 7 million related to the tort claims from over two years ago, well before the election? Since this government seems to think that it provides co mpetent management, I would like the minister to confirm, ask him whether he would confirm, that this so called competent management has put the MPIC in the worst financial position that it has ever been in its 25- year history? Mr.

Cummings: Madam Speaker, it took the member three questions to get to where I now realize the assum ption that he is beginning to make, and those assumptions are, I presume, around the basis of whether or not the monies set aside for tort claims prior to a personal injury protection program being put in place, whether or not those reserves were adequate or whether or not they needed to be adjusted. Certainly those are histori cal reserves that are adjusted on a regular basis on a review of actuary and adjusted so that there is an accurate and adequate amount on reserve. Mr.

Maloway: Madam Speaker, a new question to the same minister is this: I would like to ask the minister, given that his report that came out last year, five days after the election, indicated that $29 million would be needed to fund these tort claims that occurred, the last of which occ urred well over a year and three months before the election, he confirmed that he would need $29 million and now I would like him to confirm that he needs an extra $47 million. Now why would it take him over two years and three months to come up with those conclusions? Mr.

Cummings: Madam Speaker, I hate to disappoint the member, but probably some of those claims go back a lot further than he thinks. The fact is that the history of - -

May 27, 1996 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2737 the settling of the tort claims goes well beyond the year and a half or the two years that he refers to and he knows full well that that is the case. The fact is that these numbers are reviewed regularly in front of the Public Utilities Board. There should not be any surprises as to the amount. Ann ually, we review them regularly. The internal and external actuaries review these figures, and certainly it will only be a few days and I am sure the corporation will be prepared to table its report. Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. During Question Period on May 2, 1 996, the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) raised a point of order about words used by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) in response to a question. The words at issue, I believe, were, "The only thing that is in the interest of the member opposite is to try and create a public forum for him to raise his face, and that is not in the public interest." I took the matter under advisement to review Hansard. Having done so, I find that the honourable member for St. Johns indeed did have a point of order .

The First Minist er did indeed contravene Beauchesne Citation 48 1. (

e) which reads that a member must not impute bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged by a member. I would ask the First Minister to withdraw the comments in question. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I withdraw those comments, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable First Minist er. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Teaching Profession-Legislation Protest Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, I feel that I must rise today to address the unfortunate and regrettable actions that were taken by a small number of Manitoba's public school teachers in the Legislative Building last Thursday.

Young Manitobans and their parents expect their educators to not only provide them with knowledge and skills but also to set forward an example for appropriate conduct and respect. Those individuals who came to the Legislature last Thursday to scream at elected officials, to run in the hallways, to interrupt the proceedings of the Legislature are not representative of the thousands of quality teachers who were in their classrooms that day teaching our young children.

Many teachers spoke with me personally or contacted me by phone this weekend to express their embarrassment and disgust at the actions taken by a small number of their colleagues. Those teachers I spoke with are the ones whom Manitobans feel confident to entrust the academic well-being of their children to, and they are the ones who are truly worthy of being called professionals. The right to demonstrate is one which this government respects and it is part of what sets us apart from many other countries.

Yet, Madam Speaker, along with that rig ht comes a moral obligation to accord respect within that demonstration. We have seen groups ranging from home care workers to hog producers act in a responsible and reasonable manner in similar situations. It is regrettable that this small group of public school teachers was unable to follow their example.

I would like to make it clear to all Manitobans, on behalf of those teachers whom I spoke with this last weekend that I do not believe, nor do the members of this government believe, that the inappropriate actions taken by those few teachers last Thursday are representative of the majority of our teaching profession. I have always believed that our teachers are among the best in Canada in their conduct both in the classroom and beyond it. I continue to maintain that belief. Thank you. Osvita Foundation Awards Mr .

Doug Martindale (Bu rrows): On May 22 I had the pleasure of attending, along with several other members of the Legislative Assembly, the Osvita Foundation banquet where Mr. John J. Nowosad, KSG, was honoured as the 1996 foundation honouree. Mr. Nowosad is a well-deserved recipient of this award,

2738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 96 having been a teacher, a veteran of World War II, secretary of the Ukrainian Catholic Council of Canada, active in refugee resettlement, involved with restaurant, grocery and wholesale businesses, writer of rural communities histories, two-term president of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, a founding member of the Catholic Foundation of Manitoba, a 25- year member of the board of St. Boniface Hospital and was made a Knight of Saint Gregory.

The Osvita Foundation was begun in 19 82 by the Manitoba Parents for Ukrainian Education, of which I am a former board member. Two graduates of the English Ukrainian bilingual program were awarded scholarships, Christina Pyra and Valerian Y ereniuk. Christina was awarded numerous Grade 12 awards including Canada Scholar, a $1 0,000 four-year renewable science scholarship. She is now in fourth year chemistry at the University of Winnipeg. Valerian was also awarded a Governor-General award and several other scholarships in Grade 12 and is currently enrolled in engineering at the University of Manitoba.

On behalf of my colleagues in the Manitoba Legislature, I want to congratulate Mr. John Nowosad, the Osvita Foundation honouree, and wish continued success in their studies to Christina Pyra and Valerian Yereniuk. * (1 440) Teaching Profession-Legislation Protest Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, I believe in democracy, and I believe in freedom of speech. I also readily acknowledge that on various matters Manitobans will agree to disagree. Quite frankly, at times I think that is healthy. About the only constant in our society at this point in time is change.

A very wise person said, change is inevitable, adaptation is optional. Some people willingly embrace change and others resist it as fiercely as they can. I can understand the hesitancy to change when the parameters of those changes are studied, examined and debated and still found wanting. What I do have a problem with is those who resist change when they arc not aware of what the changes arc. This precisely is the case with the recent demonstrations we had at the Legislature last Thursday when quite a number of teachers converged to voice their opinion on legislation from the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Mci ntosh). Actually, they did not voice their opinion, they shouted and screamed and did so with profanities and vulgarities that are unbecoming of anyone, let alone those who are shaping the minds of our youth. This is very disturbing because, according to the Manitoba Teachers' Society 19 95 policy handbook, and I quote: A teacher speaks and acts with respect and dignity and deals judiciously with others, always mindful of their rights. But distressing as their antics were, even more disturbing was the uninformed nature of their protest.

On the same day that these teachers protested in the Legisl ature, I was able to meet with a couple of them. They informed me that they were opposed to the report of the Teacher Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review Committee. Therefore, we proceeded to go through various aspects of the report, and upon doing so, their tone and attitude changed. All we ask is that these teachers take the time to read the report and to act in a manner more in keeping with their policy handbook. Cec Muldr ew Retirement Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, May 22, over a hundred family members, friends and colleagues of Cec Muldrew met in the Riverview Community Centre in order to celebrate his life and work. All were adamant that this was not a retirement dinner but a renewal feast. Cec Muldrew is a passionate witness for social justice, who through his commitments, principles and activities, exemplifies the spirit of social prophets and pioneers like Stanley Knowles and Tommy Douglas. After a distinguished career as a teacher and principal, Cec retired and wondered how he had found time to work for money.

Following his pre- and post-teaching life is an education in the struggle for social justice. He has been an active member and officer of the World Federalists of Canada, the Winnipeg Co-ordinating Committee for Disarmament, Project Peacemakers, the United Nations Association, Veterans Against Nuclear Armaments, and the Unitarian Church. This list is not inclusive. He has worked tirelessly for the New Democratic Party. As a broadcaster and host of a series of television programs, -

May 27, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2739 he has sought to identifY creative political solutions to the problems facing Canadians.

Cec Muldrew in his range and richness is a humanist and like the Renaissance humanists who believed in the possibilities and fullness of human life, Cec believes in Shakespeare's "brave new world, That has such people in't!" He believes with the Renaissance poet, John Do nne, that "No man is an island entire of itself." Indeed, he believes in a commonwealth of persons united in action, principle and community where the lives of all citizens, including the marginalized and most vulnerable, are respected.

Cec is a family man, teacher, thinker, public speaker, community leader, scholar, broadcaster, church official, fundraiser and, of course, radical activist. At his celebratory dinner, in love and solidarity, his family, friends and colleagues named him, in the grand style of the Renaissance, as our very own home-grown "man for all seasons." Thank you. Government Spending Mr . Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, members opposite have been critical of this government and especially as it pertains to our fiscal policy.

Unlike the members opposite, this government believes that it must live within its means and that we will be judged harshly if we do not. Those across the way never came to grips with the reality and continued to spend more money than they had, and were it not for the prudent financial directives of this current Filmon government, our children would have been saddled with a debt that they could never hope to repay. Members opposite have continually been challenging this government to spend more money, and this is in spite of the fact that we spend more on health and education than they ever did.

We are simultaneously balancing our books, something which again was completely foreign to them while in government. We are not spending more than we have. Whether the opposition wants to admit it or not, our entire society and country are bound by fiscal rea lities which must be adhered to. By managing our financial house, we have to date-this government has earned the respect of those who determine interest rates. In fact, in today's Globe and Mail, it was reported that the spec tacular performance of bond buyers is a direct reflection of the fiscal responsibilities such as is demonstrated by our government.

The members opposite missed the point altogether. These ratings are critical to our province and to our country. After all, the falling interest rates mean that the in terest rates are also going down which, in the end result, is less money to. taxpayers, monies being used to pay interest costs. In the terms of the big picture, Madam Speaker, what this means is that business and the consumers who want to borrow money to invest or spend will be able to do so more cheaply. This means more money in the pockets of Manitobans. That is how we are making this province strong. Thank you.

ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, it would be the intent to continue in Estimates this afternoon with the Department of Justice in the Chamber and the Department of Agriculture in the committee room, but in order to do that, we would seek leave of the House to have the Justice Estimates, I think, at this point considered until they are completed, as opposed to having to do it every day, following which then we can make other arrangements.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to have the Estimates of Justice continue in the Chamber until such time as review has been completed? [agreed] :It :It :It Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minist er of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr.

Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Justice.

2740 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 96 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) AGRICULTURE Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply is meeting in Room 255 where we will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 3. 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 13 of the Estimates book. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a few questions about the expenditures in this

section before we move on. One of the areas that I am looking at is under l. (

b) Executive Support, there is a

section on Grants. Can the minister give an indication what these grants are used for and who they are paid out to? Is it grants to different organizations that work within the department? Just some clarification on that, please. Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Chairman, we have a modest grant program within the Department of Agriculture Estimates.

They are paid to various organizations that hold conventions or annual meetings in the province, such as the Canada Grains Council, Canadian Grains Commission, Canadian intergovernmental conference secretariat, Canadian Shorthorn Association, Canola Council of Canada, Na tional Chinchilla Breeders Association. We have a policy that provides for modest assistance usually to help out with the luncheon, and they range in the order of $1 ,500 to, for instance, the Canada Grains Council, to $500 to the Chinchilla Breeders Association. Those were '93-94.

In '94-95, again a similar grouping of diff erent agricultural organizations: Canadian Special Crops Association received $1 ,50 0; Entomological Society received $2,000; Manitoba Combined Training Association received $500; Manitoba Junior Hereford Association $5 00; Manitoba Milk Producers received $1,000 for their annual convention here in the province; Manitoba Seed Growers' Association received $1 ,5 00. So these are the nature of the grants that are provided.

To date in the year '96 to March 31, '96, three additional groups: Keystone Agriculture Producers Incorporated received $1,000; Manitoba Hatchery Association received $1 ,000. Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate whether there is a criteria that is required to apply for this funding or on what basis the funding is allocated? * (1 50 0) Mr . Enns: The basic criteria is that they are national meetings. We host visitors from across the country and it has to be a national meeting for a certain level of grants. Certain other ones are traditional hospitality grants.

There is a hospitality committee working out of the Premier's Office, I believe. It has been a long standing committee that attempts to provide a base criteria for hospitality grants of this order. These grants are not to be confused with those grants that we have in other parts of the Estimates. For instance, the department also still continues to provide modest assistance to agricu ltural societies and, I believe, to some of the different agricultural fa irs that take place throughout the province. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, the minister indicated earlier on that he had travelled fairly extensively over the last year to promote agriculture, to promote the sale of val ue-added products in various parts of the country. Can the minister indicate whether the transportation costs for those excursions show up in this budget and also whether there are several people who travel with the minister and whether the costs for those would show up out of this budget or whether they show up in another place? Mr .

Enns: I can indicate to the committee that the department attempts to appropriately proportion travel expenses of that kind in the appropriate

section of the Estimates. If it is a marketing mission, those costs would be contained within the marketing branch's Estimates as shown in these appropriations. For instance, I recall one occas ion where I travelled to a western bankers' meeting in Des Moines, Iowa. Essentially the business at hand - -

May 27, 19 96 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 274 1 was of interest to Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, and my understanding is that the appropriate costs of the personnel involved, including myself, were borne by the corporation.

We have a policy of criteria where, as on my last visit to Asia, to China, in particular, we had invited a number of people who had an interest in promoting their products in that market, whereby the department again, in this case, in the Marketing branch, would modestly support airfare only for the head or the president of, say, the vegetable producers organization of Manitoba, Mr. Dave Jefferies, accompanied me or Mr. Wayne Burke, who was the current president of the Manitoba Forage Seed growers association. There were others that joined in the mission as well, but did so at their own expense.

In addition to that, it is usual that we have somebody from the department; in some instances it has been my assistant deputy minister, Mr. Donaghy and other agents. The point man that we used, perhaps most frequently, is one of our senior marketing people in the Marketing branch, Mr. Lasby Lowes. Those expenses would, of course, be picked up by the Marketing branch of the department. Ms. Wowchuk: So then the minister is indicating that in what we have Transportation and Other Operating costs, this would be transportation within the province.

On this line, this would not necessarily mean travel on out-of-province missions? Mr . Enos: Mr. Chairman, staff advises me this appropriation would include my or staff's costs if we were travelling, as we did, to meet with fellow ministers or the federal minister in Toronto. We are looking forward to the national Canadian Agriculture ministers' meeting this first week in July in Victoria, British Columbia this year, for instance, those would be included in that.

But as the member has pointed out when I am travelling specifically on a marketing and leading a trade mission, those are appr opriately found in the Marketing branch, the travelling expenses and trade promotion expenses. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, just prior to the last mission that the minister went on to China, there was a trade mission taken by the federal Minister of Agriculture which covered very much the same territory, with the exception of one province, I believe. Had the minister taken

part in the federal mission, would the expenses have been covered from the federal government or would those expenses still have been paid by the province? Mr . Eo ns: Mr. Chairman, staff advises me that they would have still been our costs. We did receive the invitation. I received the invitation for Manitoba to be represented either by myself or somebody else from Manitoba on Mr. Goodale's mission, and I report to the committee that Mr. Lasby Lowes from the Manitoba Marketing branch was with the federal mission as well. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, within those other expenditures, there is an asterisk indicating this amount also includes policy studies. Can the minister indicate what policy studies that would cover that his executive support staff has been working on? Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, these are occasions where we will second or hire somebody, usually on relatively modest contracts, to do specific additional work on policy questions. We had hired a Mr. Earl Geddes to help us early on in the year in terms of providing us with some additional information on the Grain Transportation Agreement that led to the demise of the Crow.

We had similarly asked a former deputy minister of the department, whom the member may recall, Mr. J.M. Cormack, to do a specific study on natural gas and where we were attempting to bring together potential developments in the agribusiness sector that could utilize some of the natural gas that currently is not being utilized. It is in several parts of the province of Manitoba. The particular firm that was interested in this was the Can Agra group that eventually did settle at Ste. Agathe, but in its earlier investigations there were particularly interested to sourcing natural gas.

We had also included in this area of additional policy help would be some monies for something like Professor Kraft to help us with the transition committee in the pork question and presented a report to us, conducted a number of meetings with representatives of Manitoba Pork and other stakeholders with respect to trying to assure that we would have a relatively smooth transition from the current single-selling desk to a more flexible marketing situation in Manitoba Pork. That is the range in terms of length of times from $3,0 00 to $7,000 to under $1 ,000, depending on the

2742 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 96 demands made of these individuals and the amount of what kind of funds are being allocated to have that detail required. facility run? * (15 10 ) Ms. Wowchuk: So there were no special policy studies done either on the proposed elk industry to Manitoba or on the change from single-desk selling to open marketing of hogs? Or with respect to the hogs, would that study have been accounted for in the previous year? Mr . Enns: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member is very much aware that in my view a fairly significant study was undertaken in-house and out of house.

It involved my Assistant Deputy Minister Donaghy. I am not referring to the review of the Manitoba Pork industry conducted by Professor Gilson, Dr. Donaghy and one Mr. Gerry Moore, who is an employee of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. So that study, of course, as the member is well aware, led to recommendations, provided certain recommendations, some of which have been acted upon. With respect to elk farming, there was no specific outside study instigated. I can indicate to the committee that certainly senior staff and particularly the director of the Animal Industry Branch, Dr.

Taylor, invested a considerable amount of his time and eff ort into pursuing the question before I felt comfortable in making a presentation to my caucus and cabinet that a decision to commence with game farming in Manitoba with respect to the species elk should in fact be taken. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I am trying to follow the guidelines here, but I hope you will tolerate all of the questions that I am going to be asking all come under

Section I, but they may stray from (

c) to (

d) or (

e) for a bit. I want to ask, under this section, I believe last year we talked about the priv atization of the Brandon Ag Extension Centre. That proposal was made a few years ago, and I believe it ran into some stumbling blocks. When we talked about it last year it had not actually happened. I believe the food services were privatized and there was some difficulty with that. Can the minister indicate what the status is of the Brandon Ag Extension Centre and whether it has been privatized or it is still in government hands and, if so, Mr . Enns: Mr.

Chairman, I have to report to the honourable member that there has been really no change in the situation. Government Services is the operating department that essentially has the responsibility for either finding other uses or finding other individuals or corporations or companies that could make use of the fa cilities. We continue to use the facility as an as-need basis, but no disposition of that facility has been made.

It is my hope quite frankly that we can provide or bring some kind of operation that could continue to allow us and agriculture, particularly in the western part of the province, to utilize that facility. Times have changed, I suppose. Our problem area is the dormitory facilities that are attached to that, the rather extensive kitchen facilities that are attached to that.

We had attempted during the course of the year to interest the Department of Education, Assiniboine Community College, to perhaps use the facilities or some of their training programs that they normally run through the community college system for restaurant and food service and so forth, trying to seek out a continued governmental use, if you like, of the overall facilities. But I have nothing further that I can add to it. What we are still facing of course and what is represented in the current Estimates is our ongoing cost to maintaining the facility in its present underutilized form.

We bridle that a little bit because Government Services sets the rent I believe. We in eff ect pay Government Services for the current usage of that facility. That is what is reflected in these Estimates. Ms. Wowchuk: What would those costs be for a year? Mr. Enns: In the order of $1 70,000 per year. Ms. Wowchuk: I hope that the minister will consider all possibilities of using that facility. We talked earlier about the recommendations that came from the hog report, the review of the hog industry and the need for education.

I am sure he would want to be working along with other facilities that arc offering courses such as ACC and Red River College. It is unfortunate that we would have a facility such as that that is not being used to its capacity. -

May 27, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2743 I want to ask a few questions with respect to training and use of modem technology that is available at the present time. Can the minister indicate what is the status of the technical services available throughout the offices throughout rural Manitoba? Have they been upgraded to a level equivalent to what we see in other departments? At the same time also, can the minister indicate what steps his department is taking to provide information that farmers, rural people, can access directly in their homes? Is there any upgrading in the system going on right now? Mr.

Eons: Mr. Chairman, I know that when I visit different ag offices throughout the province, as you would suspect they are introducing more and more technological support, machinery and equipment and computers into their operations. We, I am advised, provide a considemble amount of information to the Internet which then can be accessed by those farmers. There are a growing number of them that have access to it in that manner. We work with other agencies to produce different features in software for computer use.

I am advised we do not as such have the capacity within the department to directly transmit information between individual farm people. It is information that we provide or that they come in and work. We have seminars or information that they can pick up off the Net that we have put on the Net. Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate what plans his department has for the next year to upgrade or improve computer or telecommunications services throughout the areas where there are agricultural offices? *

(1520) Mr . Eons: There are a number of planned activities generally encompassing this area to extend the e-mail cap abilities into the northwest and southwest regions. Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation and AgriculturalCrown Lands Branch are feeding information into this program, continue to help Manitoba Crop Insurance in their implementation of the recommendations identified in the earlier Price Waterhouse operation review, provide guidance and assistance to their migration to open systems.

There is a fairly major change taking place in the Crop Insurance Corporation to bring their whole database and means of acces sing and getting information fully into the computer age. We continue various investigations and analyses on how the department can benefit from the new emerging technologies which involves the Internet and the information highway generally.

We have had different occasions where we have on a regional basis brought this technology to bear whereby our various specialists can, as I say, enhance the scale and reach of the information seminars that we conduct from time to time in the various disciplines of agriculture. Well, I can just put a bit more on the record of the kind of things we have, a growing number of what we call marketing clubs. These are usually a group of aggressive farmers, often some of our younger farmers.

We have over 100 of those clubs, including 53 grain marketing clubs, 29 livestock marketing clubs, 12 swine marketing clubs and six dairy clubs. We work in the new techno logy with these kinds of organizations because most of them have the equipment at home and/or meeting places that they come together with. Our whole farm business management information network is a system of 13 computer bulletin boards linked together electronically to share farm management information from coast to coast across Canada.

Winnipeg is the national hub of the farm business management in it, with the system operator located in the farm mana gement section. So this whole field of activity is a growing one. Since August '93 almost 900 users are registered, 400 to 500 use it regularly. Manitoba users have made over 20,000 calls since the project was started in August of '93.

So like anything else, it is gaining, but it also of course is dependent in large measure to what extent the primary producers are themselves getting involved in this kind of equipment and becoming literate and familiar with this kind of equipment, but it is a growing way of doing business in farming and agriculture, as it is in all other fields of life. Ms. Wowch uk: The minister mentioned that there are over a hundred marketing clubs that are using the system quite a bit.

Are these marketing clubs, or is the equipment sophisticated enough that there is direct communication that they can access through the Department of Agriculture? Are those the kinds of things that are available that are being provided for people who arc in, in particular, the

2744 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 96 marketing clubs? Is there direct communication? Can they link up ri ght to the Department of Agriculture for specific information? Mr. Enns: As I indicated earlier, Mr. Chair man, we do not have the capacity to link up directly to us, but there are a number of different ways through the Canada system, farm management system, where we have, fortunately, located in Winnipeg kind of the hub of the national system, that they can interchange with the different agricultural interests across the country. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, Manitoba Crop Insurance, the Department of Agriculture, has very sophisticated mapping plans that are on computer that, as I understand, can identity very closely what crops are grown and can break down things very closely. Can the average farmer access that inf ormation, as well, or is that information only within house? Mr . Enns: Mr. Chairman, the answer is no, but the member is correct, there is this very sophisticated satellit e-deli vered service.

The corporation and other users, I might say, including institutions like the Ca nadian Wheat Board and/or private grain companies uti liz e this information gathering with respect to crop progress in this case. Ms. Wowchuk: Can the m1mster indicate, the information that Crop Insurance uses that we have, is it a database that is built up that belongs to the Manitoba government, that belongs to Manitoba Crop Insurance, and then do we sell off?

I mean, if the Wheat Board wants some of this in formation, is it something that the department has developed that is available then to provide to other people which would be a source of revenue for the department, or does each person sort of develop their own database? Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the member is right. Over the years and on a continuing basis, Manitoba Crop Insurance is forever fine-tuning its database which becomes valuable data to other agencies.

Manitoba Crop Insurance is authorized and does from tinJe to time sell information to other instit utions like the Canadian Wheat Board which feels it is in their interests, for instance, to have accurate and advanced knowledge of crop progress or various kinds of information of that kind. Ms. Wowchuk: If you would bear with me, Mr. Cha irman, I want to ask, just for clarification, there are other databases, for example, Natural Resources has a database. Is this one database that we are looking at or do they overlap?

Does Crop Insurance have just a specific database that deals with crops and the other departments have their own? Mr . Enns: Mr. Chair man, I am familiar with the operations that the member alludes to that within the Department of Natural Resources it is that one shop that provides that inf ormation. It received some considerable federal assist ance in establishing the very sophi sticated equi pment which enables the satellite transmission of some of this data and Crop Insurance buys it from Natural Resources for the kind of information that it requires.

If it wants specific information with respect to conditions, soil conditions, moisture conditions, I know that other agencies like the Forestry department of Natural Resources of course, usually commencing about this tinJe is extremely concerned about drought conditions in the forested regions of our province in helping to plan and prepare for potential forest fires. I am advised that producers can buy summ arized copies of this information . It is not that it is secret or something like that. It is just that it is not available in the kind of form that necessarily would benefit the indiv idual farmer.

The farmer will come in and see a region, see the southern region and western region of the province, colour coded as they are; the member has seen these kinds of maps. But producers can provide, particularly under the management plus program, this kind of inf ormation through the Department of Agriculture. * (1 530 ) Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate whether it is a fairly expensive service, that if the farmer was looking for this in formation, is it something that is reasonably priced or is it beyond the reach of farmers? Mr.

Enns: I am prepared to table just an example of the kind of information, crop yield responses to seeding date, -

May 27, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2745 information on crop yields, and so fo rth in the various risk areas that the corporation provides insurance covemge fo r. It is- just paging thro ugh it--different kinds of crop ping information which is provided at no cost to the produce rs. I will table that with the Clerk and make that available to the members of the committee . Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. guess what I was wanting to ask as well, the minister says the Manitoba Crop Insurance has this information and when people want it, it is sold off.

I am sure that it probably does not show up in this budget, but I am wanting to know, is it a good source of revenue? Do we get a fair return from this investment from other departments? Mr. Enos: I am advised that it would be accurate to describe this activity as in its developmental stage. It has been po inted out to us, and I believe the Price Waterhouse report that took a hard look at the entire operations of the Crop Insurance, identified this as a future source or a potential source of revenue which would, of course, aid the corporat ion.

It would help in offsetting the administration costs and anything that we can do in contr olling administration costs, somet hing like that, of course reflects eventually to the producer in the premium structure that is as advantageous to the producer as a crop insurance can possibly make it. Any data that is sold is subject, of course, to Manitoba Crop Insurance strict criteria to ensure producer confidentiality.

Data has to be aggregated before it can be distributed outside of Manitoba Crop Insurance and Manitoba Agriculture and so there is that conc ern, the confidentiality of the producer is not comprom ised in the sale of this data but to some orga nizations, nationally and internationally, it could be very useful in the fo rmulation of their business plans if they had access to this kind of information that, at the same time, abided by the strict criteria of producer confidentiality. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, on the technological services, it indicates that there are plans to implement training fo r infor mation technology. Can the minister indicate is this a need to train staff or is the department looking at any way to pro vide additional training? Is this training programs that you are looking at to provide fo r farmers or is it internal staff training that you look at only? Mr . Enos: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that this line essentially is costs fo r in-house staff training of our own people as we change from diff erent techno logies, enhance the capacity of staff to properly and effectively use the technology. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I am wanting to ask one more question before we leave this area. Earlier on, we talked about the importance of research and attracting more dollars to this province.

There are fairly substantial amounts of money left from GRIP, I believe in the range of $16 million, and I am told that in order to get research in this province, the province has to be prepared to put money into it before the federal government is going to invest money into research in this pro vince. I understand other provinces are doing it now and that is the reason fo r the increase in the amount of research that is happening. Is there any consideration given by this government to look at that money that is in a surplus from GRIP to put it into looking at attmcting research dollars?

I real ize we have passed Crop Insurance, but I hope the minister will consider that suggestion as a way to attract more research to this province . Mr. Enos: Well, Mr. Chairman, I know that Dean Elli ot, Faculty of Agriculture, University of Manitoba, shares the member's concern that she just expressed about finding ways and means to maintain and possibly enhance our research position, particularly when one looks at what is happening in some of the other jurisdic tions.

I cannot indicate with any confidence at this stage or-we ll, confidence is the wron g word-assuredness that these additional dollars will be fou nd. But certainly I have no difficulty in acknowledging that we are looking within the Department of Agriculture, I am looking very strongly at the potential utili zation of some of those monies that the member mentioned to be utilized for that purpose. There will be a significant pool of money , hopefully, as the final surplus position of the GRIP program, fo r instance.

The member should be made aware that a policy decision has been made to return the producer's share of the GRIP surplus back to the produc ers. There may be a will ingness on the part of the produ cers, if challeng�d, to

2746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1996 fully appreciate and acknowledge the importance of research, that perhaps some of that could be used to build up a more significant fund.

But at this point in time the likelihood is that the producer's share of the projected GRIP surplus will be returned to the producers I am, of course, watching carefully what the federal government is doing with its share of the same surplus coming as a result of the termination of the program, particularly in how they are treating other jurisdictions like Saskatchewan who have significant surplus dollars in their GRIP account as well.

My understandi ng is that a fairly significant portion of the federal share is accruing to Saskatchewan , and I, of course, have made it abundantly clear to the federal people that we expect similar treabnent in Manitoba. That could result in a signi ficant pool of dollars that in my opinion could support an enhanced research program. It is my intention to pursue that and I invite and encourage the honou rable member's support in this effort. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I would encourage the minister in that avenue.

If there is close to $16 million of provincial money, and if that can be used in any way to leverage what I believe is close to $28 million in the federal account in the surplus from GRIP then certainly together that could create a very good pool of funds that we could begin to do some of the much needed research that we have to do as we go through this phase of adjusbnent from chan ging through the Crow and looking for opportunities for the farming community to adapt and adjust and bring new economic development to Manitoba. I hope the minister will pursue that, and he will certainly have our support on it. Mr.

Eons: Well, it certainly is my intention. At the moment the only person who is seriously objecting to it is one Jeff MacDonald who wants it all for Highwa ys. Other than that, you know, I am going to give it my level best. *

(1540) Ms. Wowchuk: Sorry, Jeff, you cannot get it for Highwa ys. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 3.1 .(

b) Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $437,000- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $68,3 00-pass;

(3) Policy Studies $7 1,200-pass. 3. l .(

c) Financial and Administrative Services

(1) Salariesand EmployeeBenefits $883, 900-pass;

(2) Other Expendit ures $497,4 00-pass. 3. l .(

d) Inf ormation Technology Services (

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $302, I 00-pass;

(2) Other Exp enditures $43, 700-pass. 3.l .(

e) Human Resource Management Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $23 1 ,300-pass;

(2) Other Expendit ures $33 ,800-pass. 3. l .(

f) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($ 15,000)-pass. 4. Agricultural Development and Marketing (

a) Administration (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $128, 100. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, we started to have a discuss ion on the proposed elk industry in this province and then we left that issue to move over to the issue of crop insurance. I would like to go back to that issue a little bit more and just ask a few more questions on where the department is and what is being proposed. Basically, I wonder whether the minister might be able to table with us any inf ormation that he has with respect to the industry and, in particular, I would get back to disease.

Earlier on, back in '9 1, '92, there was an awful lot of concern about tuberculosis and other diseases that were at a very high rate in Alberta, I believe, and I would like to ask the minister what studies have been done to give the minister the comfort that starting the industry now in Manitoba is not a concern to him. Mr. Enos: Mr.

Chairman, I suppose, in a more general way, the kind of fact-finding mission that I directed, as I indicated earlier, specifically to the director of the Animal Industry branch during the course of the better part of a year, was to fully acquaint himself with the operations of elk farmin g in other jurisdictions, not ably Saskatchewan and Alberta.

The knowledge that we have picked up in our veterinarian branch with respect to how disease control has functioned in these jurisdictions, how when incidents did show up with some difficulties, such as the member referred to, the respective auth orities responded, I would say, with dispatch. Also, and I have made this point before, we are questioned on that question, you - -

May 27, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2747 know, what guarantees or what can we do to ensure that disease is not an issue or a problem to our grow ing cattle industry with the potential introduction of various diseases. Growing infor mation leads us to believe that in the contr olled state dome sticated farming of these animals in fact reduces the incidence of possible conta mination or a contagion of disease. I cannot, nor can my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Driedger), give the member or any primary livestock producer any assurance about the current level of disease in the 10 ,000 or 12 ,000 elk that roam in the wild, along with the upwards to 1 00,000- plus white-tailed deer and other big game animals. As I indicated to her when last we discussed this issue, right about now our producers are turning their domestic cattle herds out onto pasture and there is a considerable amount of co-mingling that goes on. There is always a concern.

That is why we have in this country, and I applaud people that preceded me and who continue to work in this field, a very sophisticated and some would say expensive system of health checks run by Agriculture Canada have a full health and veterinary

section that deals with this issue. Provincial departments of Agriculture are equally engaged in it. We support and maintain diagnostic lab services. We expend a considerable amount of money fo r the protection, control and, where possible, of course, the eradication of various animal diseases that impact on livestock. We have been singularly successful in some of the serious diseases that plagued livestock. In my lifetime, brucellosis, which the member knows was a ma jor problem to the livestock industry, has not been eradicated but certainly is a very contr olled situation.

The same thing applies to tuberculosis, TB. We are constantly concerned about any flare-ups wherever they may occur. I can report to the honourab le member that hardly a year goes by that something does not flare up somewhere and that action has to be taken. A herd has to be put down, a herd has to be put on test, put in quarantine, but the mechanics are there to do it. I appreciate the fact that to date we have been able to set aside sufficient dollars both in the Ag Canada budget and in the provincial budgets to maintain this.

You know, when you have the privilege of visiting other countr ies such as Mexico, fo r instance, who would dearly love to be able to do more trade in cattle with us and/or particularly with some of the southern states of the U.S., what prevents them from doing it is because they have not addressed the question of animal disease to the point that we have. They do not have free passage into other jurisdictions as we enj oy with our major trading partner, the Americans, or anybody else for that matter. I appreciate that this is a long-winded response.

I simply say that you have to look at venerable gentleman like Dr. Jim Neufeld, who has become the Director of the Veterinary Services in our province, in our branch. You have to look at the support staff that he heads up in that branch. We as legis lators ought to make sure that sufficient funds and resources are set aside fo r that purpose. That is in fact the best guarantee that we can handle these situations as they arise.

I do not see, and I have been persuaded, and I was able to persuade my col leagues in government that the introduction of elk farming does not place this overall concern about health safety, animal disease in any jeopardy or in any greater cause for alarm. In fact, we suspect that we will get valu able data, particularly in Manitoba, where, as you know, we are part of elk ranching, the introduction of elk ranching will be from the wild.

We will be accessing animals from the wild from which we will get very sophi sticated health information, medical information, with respect to the standing of our wild herds . 1\ (1 550 ) Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate if his staff has looked at Saskatchewan and Alberta, where they have had elk ranching or game farming for some I 0 years now and whether you have looked at the numbers and whether there has been a decrease in the incidence, or what is the rate of incidence of disease outbreak? Again I refer back. I know back in '9 1 , '92 there was a bad outbreak in Alberta.

Is this a common occurrence or has there been a decline in the number of outbreaks since there has been dome stication? I guess I am looking really at the status of the herds there, whether there is a serious problem with disease within the captured herds or whether that has become quite contr olled. Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, the honourab le member referred to the well-publiciz ed difficulty that they had.

2748 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 96 Again, just generally, I am aware-you see, that is why the member will sec why a great deal of attention has to be paid to the transportation of animals from where to where and how they arrive here. If we are not absolutely certain, if we do not have full confidence in the integrity of the scale of control that is in a particular jurisdiction, we will not allow those animals to come to the province.

Where the difficulties occur, in the Saskatchewan, Alberta experience, has been in the importation or not having the rules quite up to speed and allowing the importation of animals from a jurisdiction that then moved that disease into their herds. That, of course, is the concern by those who continue to express concern about that. We, for instance, have in broad policy statements already let it be known, we will not permit animal imports from jurisdictions that we have any reason to be nervous about. That includes the United States right now.

The TB infected animals that plagued the Alberta program were brought in from the United States. As I said earlier, we feel, with increased confidence, that we have had the advantage of learning from some of the mistakes that some of these jurisdictions made and some of the difficulties they ran into by carefully assessing, you know, what the problems were and by the advice that we are getting from some of these sources.

So we have developed a pretty sophisticated protocol about how animals will be approved, for instance, with specific diseases, brucellosis, certified for movement by Agriculture and agriculture food centre under transportation permit prior to introduction, tuberculosis, certified for movement by Agriculture and Agriculture food Canada. Ag Canada plays an extremely important-and it is our intention to lean heavily on Ag Canada to help us in the enf orcement of these protocols having to do with safeguarding the animals' health. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, the minister refers to the Department of Agriculture, and there is a compensation program that is in place when cattle have to be put down or horses have to be put down for disease. I understand that there is also a compensation program in other provinces that is covered, if they have to be put down, for elk. Can the minister indicate, when there is this compensation, whether the province has any share of it or the costs are borne strictly by the federal government and what the compensation rate is for cattle and elk? Mr. Enns: Mr.

Chairman, it is a federal program, totally federally supported, and, at this time, there is no provision for a provincial input and/or coverage for elk at this time. Ms. Wowchuk: Is there for cattle? Mr. Enns: For cattle, not provincial, just federal. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, when the announcement was made to start elk ranching, the minister indicated that it was-1 have not got the announcement right here, but there was discussion about, part of the industry is to provide meat, and the other part of the industry is for the sale of antlers.

At the time, I tried to get some information from the department from various people as to the purposes, the uses for these antlers. I understand that they are shipped. The market is in Europe, and there are some limited purposes for it, but I have not been able to get any information as to any documents that will tell us. What market are we acc essing, or what is the purpose of these antlers? Is it medical purposes? I hear various things, so I would like some information, and if the minister could provide us with something I would appreciate it. Mr . Enns: Mr.

Chairman, firstly, I think although the act will anticipate that there will be some movement of meat, so there will be a provision dealing with the meat processing in the act. But let me be very clear, in the first several generations or decades of the program, the value in the business lies in the breeding stock and the sale of velvet, and there would be very limited actual movement into the meat trade.

But, you know, that is someth ing that is certainly down in the future, just as in other nontraditional animals that have been introduced to agriculture whether it is ostrich or emu, or bison that takes a number of years before prices come down to the point where they could be considered making any significant contribution to the meat trade or the meat industry. Velvet antler usage is attractive. It is exported to different parts of the world, but particularly, of course, the Asian part-Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, China. It is used extensively for Oriental herbal medicines. It is eaten as a delicacy.

It is brewed in teas. It is used in herbal wines and elixirs. - -

May 27, 19 96 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2749 (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) They claim-and who are we in Canada to take issue with them?-that it increa ses the blood flow and volume, improves growth of young children, eliminates anemia, promotes rapid healing, tissue regeneration, arthritis treatment, relieves lumbago, improves weak bones, treatment of aftereffects of paralysis, sciatica, neuritis and shoulder pain. *

(1600) I am just delighted that I am joined by my colleague from Sturgeon Creek who I know is well learned in these matters, being somewhat of a herbalist himself, and has on occ asion conned me out of $16 0 to $17 0 to buy some ofhis medicines. Menopause and menstrual disorder treatment, treat kidney deficiencies, and, of course, impotence also is listed. But it is a misconception and a myth that generally speaking we only hear about its use as an aphrodisiac. In Eastern medicine, it is used very extensively. It is based on the philosophy of yin and yang, opposite forces which govern everything in the universe.

Health in human involves balance ofyin and yang. Illnesses are caused by imbalances. To bring a body back to balance, various herbs and medicines are taken, and that is what really drives a virtually insatiable demand for the velvet. I am advised by staff who have investigated this on the field that a set of antlers will return to the producer between $1, 200 to $1, 500 per annum.

It should be noted these antlers fall off in their natural state of nature every year, and so the harvesting of them, in my opinion, ought not to be considered as unusual or exploiting a portion of the animal that drops off naturally every year. If producers in Saskatchewan and Alberta are turning this into a very attractive economic activity, why ought we not to make that available to Manitoba producers? I might also say that in different parts of Canada, notably I believe Alberta and Ontario, we are proce ssing the velvet into various forms of medicinal uses, pills, powders and herbal teas. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the minister if the Department of Agriculture is going to control the sale of antlers. For example, is this going to be centrally control led where they will be handled through one facility, and does the minister have the confidence that the system will be set up in such a way that we will not have antlers from nondomesticated animals getting into the system? Could he clarifY how his department proposes to dispose of these antlers, and under which department's jurisdiction this will be? Mr. Enns: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member correctly points out and draws our attention to very legitimate conce rns that people have, that by allowing in one set of circumsta nce s, you know, the commercial sale of, in this case, antlers-but the same can be said about elk generally-that how will the Department of Agriculture, how will the government, be able to manage the illegal acce ss to the same products? How will we determine if these products are put on the marketplace whether they are acquired properly from an established elk farm or indeed poached from the wild?

I can tell the honourable member that, again, the experience that we have gleaned from the other jurisdictions who had a 1 0-year head start on this program, that is why there is a very tightly controlled, very sophisticated system of contro ls whereby, as I indicated, each elk in itself will be personally identified and inventoried, not just a metal clip in their ear, but by a DNA test. That same number or identification has to be carried through each time a set of antlers or velvet is sold from that animal and so identified. The penalties are-and when the member sees the penalty

section of the bill she may be shocked because the penalties are extreme. Would-be practitioners of anything illegal in this business better be very careful because they stand to lose their farm, they stand to lose their investment in elk if any product moves that cannot be accurately traced exactly from where that product came. That animal has to-the elk and the velvet or the antler has to be, we have to be able to marry it up through our identification to an animal that is properly identified as a bonafide registered animal on a registered elk ranch .

Of course, we are training staff, you know, to be able to carry this out. I think one of the benefits that we have is that we can and have acc ess to those other jurisdictions that have allowed this for the past I 0 or 12 years, and we find out from some of their initial mistakes. We really believe that we can introduce a program in Manitoba

2750 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 96 having benefited from the earlier trials and errors that some of the other jurisdictions which started this program 12 years ago which did not foresee all of the problems but now have experience that we learn from. Ms. Wowchuk: Does that mean that all antlers will be sold through a central agency, or will the individuals be able to make their own sale agreements? Mr. Enns: What it means is the only antlers that can be sold have to carry the appropriate identification. Ms.

Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate whether there is going to have to be additional staff hired as veterinarians who will be monitoring the whole industry and doing the tabulating and numbering of all of this whole business? Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman , staff advise me that certainly in the start-up phases we have the abil ity to do it ourselves, and there is also provision available, will be made in the act, that we can hire additional inspectors. As I have indicated on other occasions, the program will be self-sustaining.

We expect the costs will be recovered, whether incurred by staff or by the requirement, if need be in the future, for additional inspections and the accompanying renumeration that would have to follow. But let me be very clear, we are talking about an indus try that within a very few short years has mushroomed to a 60-, 70-, SO-million industry in neighbouring Saskatchewan and Alberta, and there is no reason why that should not happen here in Manitoba.

It would certainly be an appropriate direction for the Department of Agriculture whose program it will be, to be invol ved in it, to provide support just as it does for another agricultural program. I suspect that if my expectations of the elk-farming opportunities are realized, then it is a given that there will be some additional time and staff required to maintain the integrity of the program. The issue will always be a little different than with nontraditional animals, say, like beef.

We do not have that same set of circumstances where society on the one hand demands that a healthy herd be maintained in the wild, that the two arc absolutely separate and that the general public has confidence in our abil ity to maintain that degree of separateness. Ms.

Wowchuk: There are several issues, and I am sure that we will see this when we get the legis lation, but I want to ask the minister if his department has looked at di stances that elk ranches will be able to be establis hed in proximit y to what is an existing herd or a natural habitat. * (1610 ) Are there going to be guidelines in place that say that, for example, you cannot have an elk ranch within so many miles of Duck Mountain or Riding Mountain Provincial Park?

How are you goin g to ensure that we do not have that close proximity, or does the minist er believe that there is any concern that we should be concerned about having a domesticated herd in close proximity to the wild herd? (Mr. Deputy Chair person in the Chair) Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I think it would be fair to say, and constantly remind ourselves as we discuss this issue, I have no difficulty and I appreciate the opportunity of discussing this new venture into liv estock agricult ure in the province, but the act has not been passed, the regulations have not been totally, certainly, formulated.

Issues like this, which we are well aware of, have been raised and are raised. I might indicate to you that we do not int end to put specific restrictions in place. We are talking about such things as minimal size, perhaps I 0 acres to start off with. We are talking about that they ought not to be on Crown lands. Those kinds of issues. I have a difficulty if we begin to, even to ourselves, suggest that well, you cannot put them within proximity of a park or a natural area, that we do not have faith and confidence in our own control systems.

I appreciate what the member is driving at, that an elk ranch within the proximit y of say a provincial or a national park that has abun dant herds in the wild, that that is an invitation to in crease the herd through the back gate or that kind of thing, but if I begin to believe that, then I start to lose faith in all the rest ofthe program that my staff are telling - ·-

May 27, 19 96 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 275 1 me that they can, in fact, impose and control and maintain in the system. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I look forward to seeing the legislation and discussing this further. I wonder ifl could revert back a bit to when I talked about the various uses for the antlers. The minister read from a document, and I wonder whether he would be willing to table that document, if that would be fair to ask for? The other question I have is can the minister indicate whether-1 assume it would be in this department that we would know-[interjection] Can you table that document?

Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, what I am going to do is, but that is not at this moment, I am going to ask the director of Animal Industry Branch, who I know has put together different information that contains this and additional information. It is certainly in the interests of an informed opposition and an informed general public, hopefully, about having this information, and I would be more than pleased to ask Mr. Taylor, perhaps as early as tomorrow or the next day, to have some of that information without totally deleting his book.

I have no difficulty in having as much of this inf ormation, most of which is public, made available to the honourable member.

Before we leave the sub ject, allow me to just once again remind the honourable member that I genuinely look forward to her having an understanding and a hard look at the opportunities that this program may offer to some of our aboriginal comm unities, of which she has a number of them in her constituency that have expressed an interest in elk ranchi ng, because I look forward to an opportunity of the Department of Agriculture, perhaps in a more meaningful way, working with the aboriginal community in helping to establish viable, economic livestock ventures. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, I am not looking to drain the minister's staffs book of all the information. I do have a lot of information on the industry, but it is that particular

section that I have been trying to get more information on. If the minister could offer us that, that would be very helpful. I want to ask the minister- Mr . Enns: I note that the member is making notes. can assure the honourable member that before the day is out she will have the entire philosophy of the yin and yang and all the other little things about elk farming. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the minister if he can indicate whether his department spent money on the two sites that have been set up, one in Grunthal to hold the female elk, and there is a site set up at Pine Creek to hold the male elk. Can the minister indicate whether funds were expropriated from this department to cover the costs of the fencing and what are the ongoing costs to the department to maintain that herd? Mr .

Enns: Allow me to make it very clear that the Department of Agriculture will be solely responsible for the operation of the domestic elk farming that will commence when proper legislation is in place and regulations are passed. Any activity part of that is solely the responsibility of the Department of Natural Resourc es. It is my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) who has the responsibility of the care, the housing and the managing of the animals that have been taken into captivity.

Yes, certainly, we notice that he is going to be sending me the bill for it, but at the present time the operation is being carried from Natural Resourc es, and of course we are starting to incur expenses as well. We believe that we will have, by next year we are off and running, maybe overall expenses of some $1 80,000, $1 85,000, which partly will be offset along with the costs engaged in the housing of the animals this year. In '95-96, we have some $300,000 indicated, earmarked in the Department of Natural Resource s, with about $60,000 in the Department of Agriculture .

All of these monies we have indicated to our Treasury will be recoverab le from a 50 percent share of the proceeds of the sale of the animals. The indications to date, and these again because this is all speculation at this point, but that we have indicated to our Treasury Board that with 50 percent of the proceeds, both the Department of Agriculture will be able to cover its costs involved and the Department of Natural Resources will recover its costs plus be able to contribute signific antly to what they would like to establish as an elk enhancement fund where they can do some of the needed work.

The honourable member mentioned the other day the habitat improvement in the areas where the elk belong, in the parks. It may mean some judicious clearing of some habitat, some additional provision of feeders in future

2752 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27 , 19 96 difficult winters that would keep more of the elk in their original habitat rather than have them come out on the farm landscape and cause the big game damage that we spent some considerable time yesterday talking about. The sale of these elk will give the Ministry of Natural Resources some of the dollars to do that.

If we run those programs as intended and they bear results, I am convinced that the issue that is between the kind of legitimate person who opposes elk ranching that says we are doing this at the expense of a public good, namely, the wild elk herd, in fact, can be debated, that it will be seen that this is in fact not only aiding individual farmers as they establish domestic elk ranching but also aiding the public herd in the wild through this elk enhancement fund.

The other 50 percent of the proceeds goes directly to my good friend and colleague who I know the honourable member for Swan River has such high esteem for, the Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Stefanson). Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, one last question on this issue. When the minister was in his previous department, the Department of Natural Resources, I believe he brought in legislation which made it illegal to sell animal parts and now with the antler sales, will that legislation have to be amended?

Does this sale of animal parts now open up for the sale of other-I realize we are going back to another area-but I am wondering if it is going against

an act that was brought in a few years ago that said it was illegal to sell animal parts and now we are bringing in an industry whereby we will be selling animal parts. * (1 620) Mr . Enns: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member for Swan River has found me out. One of the penalties that you pay if you hang around this place too long-it is true that I was privileg ed and pleased to introduce to the Manit oba Legisla ture a specific act that prohibited the sale of animal parts. That act will now have to be amended, I would think. But it is

an act that specifically was general in its applic ation partly because we are attempting in the case of elk, with growing difficulty when you had commercializ ation of elk legal in all other jurisdictions, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Alberta, to have the wildlif e officers properly control the il legal poaching of these animals and/or some of their parts. We now beli eve-and certainly if you speak to the people in the Department ofNatural Resources who, as the member is fully aware, are not in all instances enthusiastic about the program, they will acknowledge, the enforcement people will acknowledge they believe that there will be a far better

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e524b47154bf928525e3c9fe2f6cf7b83d8a47a9

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